I know so many people who've been messed up by the NTCC it's mind boggling. Most never totally get over trauma associated with having been a part of the NTCC. You don't clearly see the damage being caused while you are in but it becomes painfully obvious once you get out. You can't get all those years of life back. Families broken up, marriages wrecked which should have never been in the first place. Childhoods destroyed, forever lost and wasted. I really wish NTCC people could see the light but I know from experience that most can't. They won't see it until it's too late but then the damage will have already been done. Irreversible damage.
I know of a couple who were in the ministry for about 15 years in the NTCC. The NTCC messed them up. This husband and wife combo messed up other people pretty bad while they were in the ministry. The NTCC leadership misguided them and screwed them over. Nothing good came from the entire debacle. Now the church is gone like I predicted years ago. Another example is the Oberhausers. An experiment gone bad. A minister who's preaching couldn't bring a horse to water in the middle of a desert. From Graham to Columbus back to Graham to Savannah to who knows where now. A complete waste time and a legacy of pure failure. Never one ounce of success in the ministry and you expect me to believe that God was behind all that??? So God sent them to Columbus? God sent them to Savannah? God sent them back to Graham to be recycled? Bologna. The Graham crooks sent them everywhere they went. And why do the crooks bring people back to Graham? To keep a steady cash flow rolling to line the Kekel's pockets and if you think otherwise you are completely misguided and deceived.
The whole thing is so sad. I get no joy out of writing this stuff. Thank God I got out of that mess when I did. Life has been so good since I left the NTCC. Unlimited blessings have flowed my way. It never stops. The NTCC is a curse and to find your way out of the NTCC's mess is a blessing. The problem is, in many cases, the NTCC caused so much damage to so many lives, even after people leave the NTCC the negative effects are often irreversible. A wasted life in America. Born in the United States, the land of opportunity, only to throw it all away following a bunch of con artist cult leaders. What a shame and what a waste.
Chief
OB was in Hinesville back in April of 14 and then he disappeared from the church locator for a couple years. Perhaps he drove that work into the ground and had to go back to Graham to ride a pew for a couple of years. Recently he popped up on the locator and is presently in Louisville, KY.
ReplyDeleteThe way I see it is RWD used to play an imaginary game of chess. All of the ntcc ministers were his pawns and who he imagined the devil to be was his opponent in this imaginary chess game. R&D looked at each preacher as his personal property to do with as he pleased. His metrics for success included money, attendance numbers , submission to him, and the individuals ability to jump through whatever hoops were important to RWD at the moment .
ReplyDeleteSadly , many people have wasted their lives as pawns in a game played by a demented man who now rots in the ground . He impotently left behind hundreds of yes men who are still clamoring around in the darkness, going through the motions , keeping up with the schedule to please the memory of a man who never really cared for them in the first place.
It is almost like a bunch of people trying to play a game of musical chairs long after the band has gone home . NTCC is a pathetic bunch of brain washed individuals groping in the darkness, all the while imagining themselves to be something they are not . ..
Sad really , but hopefully some will wake up and see there is life outside of ntcc. RWD was too busy protecting his own image while he was alive to prepare anyone with real leadership skills to replace him when he died . So this leaves those he left in charge woefully unprepared to lead his cult now that he is gone.
Hopefully we will continue to see what is left to crumble and decay into nothing sooner rather than later .
ANON said "He impotently left behind hundreds of yes men who are still clamoring around in the darkness, going through the motions"
ReplyDeleteI can tell you the biggest reason I left is the loss of any feeling about what I was doing. It was "Going through the motions". I knew I had not an ounce of sincerity in me. I was embarrassed to soul win. I was embarrassed to have my family visit the church. I was embarrassed with my own actions as I knew I was by no means holiness.
Mike
I still remember Monday being the only day of rest. Every other day was such a drag. It was so tiring and insane. I'm not saying it was anything like what they had to experience back in the day but come on. I was able to get an education because I stopped all the foolishness.
ReplyDeleteChess Game? More like a shell game. Nothing under those shells except for what you were told was under there. Once you started to follow the shells around you noticed the game was rigged (as they all are).
ReplyDeleteI pity those involved with this org that don't know the history... Heck, even I don't know the half of it. I left without spending a dime on the B.S. in Washington.
As we've witnessed here in the past 2 years anyone can leave so all is not lost. Yes we've lost a portion of our lives but we've escaped the whore.
Now we live.
DNA said....
ReplyDeleteRecently he popped up on the locator and is presently in Louisville, KY.
Chief said...
Yep, and that's another debacle in the works. They never learn or they just don't care but undoubtedly a combination of the two. The blind leading the blind. No doubt!
Been out of the NTCC mess for 7 years now. I feel like life is almost back on track but there are losses that can never be recovered. Damaged family relationahips, lost time building a profession, never starting a family, etc. Im just glad they only got 13 years of my life and no more.
ReplyDeleteWow. Glad they got no more.
ReplyDeleteNTCC is a hoax and a scam. It always was. We were told wild fantasies about it's connception, but later the truth emerged that RW was run off from his previous connections because of sexual misconduct. Somehow that got transmogrified into "they didn't want holiness," and "God raised pasTOR up because of compromise." Blah blah blah; it was all lies and spin. Once a person gets away from that hall of mirrors they can clearly see that, but there is no clear vision within the fog. Now the young turks are running the show, and all the ancient landmarks are being removed...except for the ones that insure their continued ability to fleece and dominate the flock. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Well, it's wonderful to be free of that confusion; I definitely learned some lessons I'll never forget (and they're not the ones in those worthless BS notes, either).
ReplyDeleteUNKNOWN... What was your breaking point... Just curious.
ReplyDeleteunknown... So you were there during the "Split"... I'd love to pick your brain.
ReplyDeleteYou probably saw some pretty interesting things during your 13 years. I was in but got out prior to doing the bible college thing. Thank goodness.
4 years was all I could take but the damage was wide and deep. Good luck to all of you who've escaped.
I spent 15 years, (16 if you count Korea where I faded away but still paid tithe) with this group. I wouldn't consider them so much a cult as an absolute perversion of what Christianity is. Maybe that's the same thing I don't know. They "Preached" salvation, Jesus, but totally lived like evil men. Fundamentalism gone wrong maybe.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with others counting them as a cult, I just think they miss the definition by a hair.
I was around during the split. Definitely had "some" exposure to the circumstances surrounding the split. Ask away.
ReplyDeleteThe NTCC is a hoax. No doubt at all. I could care less if they toss around the name Jesus Christ. The Bible says the devils believe and they tremble. Any con artist can throw around Christian phrases and names but that doesn't mean that I have to be stupid enough to follow them.
ReplyDeleteFor me is was the corruot land deal. When you get away from Graham you progessively begin to think more independently. Then, when you as a pastor realize you cant treat people the way NTCC leadership does, its only a matter time that you leave. As NTCC likes to quote, "they went out from us because they were never us". I was never an exploiter and croo, so they are right.
ReplyDeleteE.Granger
I was around during the split. In fact Denis was mybpastor prior to Bible school. He did the smart thing. Its not about God but money. He was the next best leader and manipulator next to Davis. Why would he limit his potential sticking around. If your corrupt you pull a Denis or Ashmore. If your not you go on your way like the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteEric
Sorry for all the typos above. Stupid smart phones.
ReplyDeleteEric
I've tried to read everything on the split. It was one of the things that helped me realize all was not right in paradise. I left and felt hell bound. Now I realize that it was a nut house.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was in I'd never heard the name Denis. Did he get big after 2000? It was always Davis and Ashmore who were the celebrities.
There was a thread on here a few years back about the split. More of an indictment on Davis leadership than anything.
ReplyDeleteI never med Denis but I heard he was crooked as a politician.
Denis was a rising star prior to 2000. He pioneered a church in New Orleans that was successful, moved on to Hinesville, GA and was successful in service mens work there. He was then given the Woodbrook/Tillicum church which was considered a prestigious post being close to the Bible Schoool. He trained a lot of the new servicemens home pastors there for several years, kind of like an internship. That gave him incredible influence and many of the pastors that split with him trained there.
ReplyDeleteEric
Around 2000 he was promoted to a director of servicemens work and traveled the country growing his influence. In that capacity he and his minions plotted their split by establishing extra bank accounts and embezzeling startup capital from NTCC tithe payers. They had property in place in various locations ready for the split. His brother in law was an associate pastor in Graham and one night in service publicly confronted Kekel over some racist remarks. That precipitated the split. After that there were people leaving NTCC left and right. The rise of the internet and NTCC critical blogs all hit around the same time.
ReplyDeleteEric
All of the above is what I witnessed and how I understood things. I was not an insider by any means and there is much Im probably unaware of or dont know the full story.
ReplyDeleteEric
I can account for your account Eric. That's pretty much how it went down in a nutshell. I was there too
DeleteThanks Eric, the only thing new I've heard is the racist comments by Kekel. I'd been hearing it started with a DVD and Rev Johnson I believe. Guess he was tricked into watching a movie on his computer and HOPP used that as fodder to ditch the church.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't in long enough to make it to Graham but after reading the blogs it sounds like Black Folks were definitely second class according to Davis/Kekel. Of course that's just what I've heard
The DVD thing was actually regarding Kinson. It was a trumped up charge to try and make the split about holiness. The DVD in question was a Scooby Doo cd and Kinson was showing a GI how to play it on a laptop. Atleast thats how I understand it. Talk about petty. Silly part is, Kinson was called on the carpet about it. Now, I understand, movie streaming is the norm for NTCC.
ReplyDeleteEric
THAT IS HILLARIOUS!
ReplyDeleteChief is right about them stealing and wasting your life. What a bunch of petty hillbilly rejects.
I'm so embarrassed to have been a part of this.
Mike
The NTCC leadership folks were closet racists. They really didn't have much problem with blacks as long as blacks paid their tithe and didn't marry whites. It used to be absolutely, positively forbidden for blacks to marry white if either showed any level of faithfulness to the church. Davis the crook claimed that such, specifically "black white" wedlocks severely hindered the ministry.
ReplyDeleteThere was a time that I bought off on that mess until I realized that the NTCC leadership did everything and anything imaginable to quote, "hinder the ministry" if it so pleased them. They'd run folks off in a minute for all kinds of selfish and childish reasons that were a heck of a lot worse than a black white interracial couple in the ministry. There was definitely racism with that one. I personally listened to an NTCC minister, namely Snyder telling some of the most tasteless black jokes that I've probably ever heard in my life. It was nonsense and he was doing it in a church building with Davis present in attendance. It was like a mini conference. Snyder was an idiot with no tact or good sense. That kind of stuff was advocated in the NTCC and certainly promoted by certain members of the NTCC leadership.
The "N" word was tossed around all to frequently back in the day, 80s 90s. Denis was a control freak abusive jerk and he learned it from Davis. He said that the good things he took from the NTCC were the things he learned from Davis. I knew what he was talking about. The control freak tactics which gave him control of other peoples money and assets. Davis has quite effectively taught Denis how to be a read deal con artist, story telling crook. Denis openly portrayed himself to be a real deal modern day prophet of God who had things revealed to him by God at least so he said. Fooey.
That's how they get you. Non-tangibles. God told me this and God told me that and we were gullible enough to buy off on it hook line and sinker. Davis and Denis, the great prophets of God who saw visions and heard God speak. Con artists to the MAX!!!!!!!!!!!! No more no less.
BELIEVE THAT!!!!!! It's ok. Just keep giving those crooks your money and all God is going to tell you when you die is that you were deceived by false prophets and you wasted your entire life. Won't that suck to squander away your whole life being led by crooks and still not be right with God. What a way to go.
I can tell you I was so deep I'd heard stories of Davis bringing people back from the dead in the Philippines and I BELIEVED IT!!!
ReplyDeleteHELLO!!!!
I believed that Ashmore did some sort of Exorcism in a church and the building trembled and the guy or girl spoke like something out of a horror movie.
HELLO!!!
I'll never fall for this crap again. It's all a money making business.
I know. I heard the same garbage. I bought off on it also. Thought he was some kind of real deal prophet apostle. I know now he was anything but. Just a con artist and an abusive narcissistic one at that. Quite a wealthy one also. He was spending our money till his dying day. I'd say the Kekel's spend more of it. Davis didn't believe on spending too much. He believed in other people buying stuff for him. He advocated and promoted it. Folks thought they were "blessing the man of god". They however were getting took by a crafty manipulative con man and he was laughing all the way to the bank. Now the Kekel's have all the control and they are raking it in hand over fist. Of course they always were; that's nothing new. They just have more control with Davis gone.
ReplyDeleteJust think. You give your hard earned money to the NTCC and Tanya blows it on goods that rival lifestyles of the rich and famous. The dresser she stores her panties in is probably worth more than you'll ever have in the bank at one time. Man the Kekel's have some really expensive elaborate stuff. Good for them. With all this information out there the suckers deserve to get took. It's good to see Granger on here. Years ago he saw the corrupt land deal for exactly what it was. If you had a brain that actually functioned, there's no way you could simply explain it away. The land deal proved it all. The NTCC was taking church owned property and simply gifting it to the Kekels. The documentation was available on line and there was no denying it. There's no telling how many time the NTCC did exactly the same thing. One time was enough for me. Your hard earned tithe money hard at work.
Suckers will remain suckers and that will never end. There will always be suckers itching to give their money away to some blow hard money grubbing swindling huckster. That's the world we live in. You want to get satisfaction? Help the needy and fulfill the Gospel. Don't give your money to some millionaire like Kekel who will watch you struggle while he gets more well off by the second.
"The dresser she stores her panties in is probably worth more than you'll ever have in the bank at one time. "
ReplyDeletelol! Now she probably hides her lipstick and make up in the same drawer that she fills with her Victoria Secret internet ordered negligee that your tithe dollars pay for.
The problem is how do we begin to trust again. What if there really is men of God out there trying their best? Will I believe them?
ReplyDeleteI don't think so.
Oh and the other problem is thinking about Tanya in Negligee... Thanks for that one ANON!!!
Mike
Is there a moticon for vomiting anywhere?
ReplyDeleteAnon said...
ReplyDeleteNow she probably hides her lipstick and make up in the same drawer that she fills with her Victoria Secret internet ordered negligee that your tithe dollars pay for.
Anon said...
No doubt you are right about the Victoria Secret part. That girl owns some seriously expensive clothing. Tithe dollars hard at work. Didn't you know that's what Christianity is all about? Funding the lifestyles of the rich and not so famous. Famous in the NTCC. Bless the rich and take from the poor. Christianity at it's best.
You can tally up another ruined family. My name is Richard Buell and I started going to NTCC in Aurora Colorado in 2002. Three years later my wife and I and three girls were off to Bible School in Graham Washington. Halfway through, one of my girls told us that she was touched inappropriately by a Bible school teacher. I forget his name at the moment but he used to teach the "Cults" class. He eventually left the church. We almost left the church after this instance but a lot of talking to me by Pastor Davis convinced us to stay. We graduated and a few years later went out into the ministry as a helper in Aurora, Colorado. Rev. Joey Perez is very hard to work for. He is very pushy, tries to make you feel guilty if you want to do anything else besides church. Well to make a long story short, a year and a half ago, Rev. Perez called me to and told me my wife wants me to move out. Apparently I'm not the kind of husband she wants anymore. So I left and moved to Canby Oregon to live with my brother. Meanwhile I paid all the bills for them while I stayed in my brother's basement. Today, 5/16/2016, I went before the magistrate in Colorado to finalize my divorce. Another broken family because of NTCC. Am I scarred? You bet I am. Do I want revenge? You bet I do. I will never forgive Rev. Perez and my ex-wife for what they did to me. They basically kick you to the curb if you don't conform to their "religious ways"
ReplyDeleteRichard Buell
Canby Oregon
Sad to hear Brother Buell. I remember your family in Aurora and fellowshipping with you. Sad to hear the family's been broken.
DeleteAre you talkin about Joey Perez of the Aurora church?
DeleteIf it's Joey Perez you're talking about he had an affair with my wife for 5 years they ended up getting caught and they both moved to Port Richey Florida they are now living together they totally broke up my family.
DeleteI was a youth teacher for the middle school and high school class for many years since 2010 to 2017 he's always hated me but I never knew why but now I know it's because he wanted my wife they are now Living with each other and they're planning on getting married hes no longer with his wife of 33 years
That's very sad to hear about Joey Perez. He was the one who invited me to the NTCC in Wahiawa, HI in 1993 and helped lead me to the Lord. He was really nice and he loved his wife Jackie and their two girls.
DeleteI apologize, anonymous, for not mentioning what he did to you and your family. That is terrible and evil behavior on Joey's part, and I pray that God continues to comfort you.
DeleteI'm so sorry to hear about your wife. I used to go to this church until I realized it was all lies. Do you know if the perezes wife knew about the affair? You said they got caught. Do you know who caught them? I used to be in the staff and it's been eating me alive thinking that there are people who knew of misconduct but just refused to shed light to the truth. Do you know why any of the other staff members left?
DeleteI remember his name now: Rev. Butler. He was married to a Korean lady and they had a young son at the time.
ReplyDeleteWould that be Darrin Butler and his wife Jung Sun?
ReplyDeleteWow. That's a really sad story. Buell, I'm really sorry to hear that. That's such a shame. The NTCC totally sucks. Wow. That's all I can say. That is really sad. There is a lot about the NTCC to HATE.
ReplyDeleteI'm so sorry to read about what happened to you Richard. The best revenge is to be successful and happy. Oh and make sure you get the kids.
ReplyDeleteYes, if you don't get the kids and they are still part of the NTCC they will be misused and abused and have their childhood stolen from them. Additionally they'll probably get spanked and hit by some ABUSIVE CONTROL FREAK BRAINWASHED CULT MINION. Dude, get the kids if at all possible. The NTCC is no place for children or women for that matter or weak minded men. Strong minded men will eventually leave.
ReplyDeleteRichard, I'm glad you're out! Enjoy life.
ReplyDeleteFor all of NTCCs recent "policy" changes they still seem to enjoy breaking up marriages and controlling people. A disgusting group of people that exploit Christians.
ReplyDeleteEric
Chief,
ReplyDeleteI like this post but don't forget we can have a great second chapter...
Start over and live people
Mike
Indeed. I definitely get your point. For many of us, that what happens. We start over and live life. And life is so much better. Unfortunately the second chapter for many is full of irreversible damage. My daughter will never get to relive her childhood. Fortunately we got out before she lost it all. Her high school years were far better than her middle school years. Running around in a silly long dress and not being able to participate in gym was some garbage. Especially when the NTCC quacks have Due 22:5 completely wrong as I've categorically proven time and time again. That was my fault for trusting them crooks and not using my own brain. Some kids lose their ENTIRE childhood. Careers are thrown out the window. Decades are wasted.
ReplyDeleteYeah, you can live life but you can't get those lost wasted years back. Relationships between children and parents are too often irreversibly damaged. The NTCC is one very seriously destructive organization. If I had my way it would be completely shut down never to reopen. It would never again be anymore than a bad memory. The NTCC is a very bad bad organization. Olson is the bottom of the bucket. The Kekel's are anything but good people. They are horrible abusive leaders who use people to the max. Davis was the same way.
Having said all that, yes. Most definitely start over and make up as much lost time as you can because the more time and money you waste, the harder it is to recover.
I was one of those kids that won't get their childhood back because of all the nonsense rules we had to follow. I missed so many school events, had to sit out of certain gym activities, never got to participate in dressing up or the class Halloween parties, and so much more. Fortunately I was able to live my high school years out of NTCC and enjoy prom, sporting events and just being a normal kid for a little while, but growing up in that church does damage to a lot of people. There are a lot of kids I grew up with that went wild when they got free and are still dealing with internal struggles. It's sad really.
DeleteI have literally the same exact story and it pains me that I lost my childhood. I just praise the Lord that I was never a victim of sexual assault. Don't give up. Stay in the faith. That's what I'm trying to do.
DeleteI get you chief...
ReplyDeleteI never lost what some of you have.
Chief,
ReplyDeleteI read about divorces and the kids getting stuck with the parent who stays in the cult... How do you move on from something like that? Those kids are robbed of a parent, the spouse is left in the cold, not the most Christian thing I've ever seen.
If there is such a thing as salvation let those in this cult be the first to receive it by getting out!!!
I'm with you. Very interesting point. I never looked at it like that. Isn't it ironic that the people who are in the NTCC are the ones who need to be "saved" from the NTCC. Salvation by getting OUT of the NTCC. That's sobering but kind of funny in a way.
ReplyDeleteHey NTCC people,
Y'all need to get SAVED. Every last one of you. All the NTCC preachers need to get saved. People in the NTCC need to get saved. Denis needs to get saved. Ashmore needs to get saved. I suspect they still have a very similar NTCC mindset. Barnes same same. If you are in the NTCC or any church like it, you need to get saved and I don't mean by Jesus either. Saved from the corrupt group you are controlled by. Saved from the bondage and legalism. Saved from the false doctrine like women not being able to lawfully work.
LOL, enough said after that post.
ReplyDeleteBOOM!!!
What I bunch of hogwash. So it's a sin for a woman to have a job? Is it a sin to take care of your children? Is it a sin to help your husband put a roof over your kids head? Is it a sin to help put food on the table? Oh, but it's not a sin to make a preacher filthy rich. I see. It's not a sin to be greedy but it's a sin to do good and right by your children. If you are in the NTCC you are so backwards it's not even funny.
ReplyDeleteIt's a sin to be greedy unless you are the one designed to benefit from it. If the greed isn't from the top then it's sinful greed because you could have done more to make those at the top even better off but you didn't! I used to remember hearing over and over how the poor woman gave her last piece of bread or whatever the story was to show how the Man of God was to be treated. I get the whole reverence thing but I don't get the worship thing.
ReplyDeleteShow me one example of even one Apostle referenced in the Bible getting filthy rich of his congregation when the majority of the congregates were broke or even if they were rich. You can't find one example in the New Testament. No where in the entire New Testament does it suggest or even remotely imply that a minister should rake in 10% of everyones income and become rich in the process. That's greed and it's certainly not bible. I'm not giving reverence to any of those crooks just like Jesus didn't reverence the religious leaders of his day. He called them generation of vipers and whited sepulchers. He called them hypocrites and that's exactly what all members of the NTCC leadership are. I don't reverence a religious crook.
ReplyDeleteJesus had more disdain for religious hypocrites than outright "sinners"; people who sinned openly and didn't make excuses for it. I'd rather spend eternity with people who regularly have sex outside of marriage than a religious con artist hypocrite who doesn't possess basic common decency. The NTCC leadership as a whole doesn't possess basic common decency.
Well put ANON.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more. Sinners have a better chance to be advocated for than lying con artists.
On a side note I just wanted all you to know the Vikings are going all the way this year.
ReplyDeletePackers are going down... Steelers are going down... Patriots... Seahawks... It's going to be an awesome year.
Could be. Don't know if I'd hold my breath with that one. For decades, the Vikings just don't seem to be able to quite put it together. Maybe this year though. Go Giants.
ReplyDeleteJust follow Mike Zimmer, the coach is a rock star!!! Probably the best coach at developing talent in the league, and easily the best defensive mind.
ReplyDeleteHe's destined for a superbowl. If he doesn't win one it's because his players need to be replaced!
SKOL VIKES
I just want to say I appreciate Bro Eric Granger and Bro Buell speaking up and sharing their stories. I know I have lost the love of my life to this cult.I decided I no longer wanted to be a part of ntcc, but my wife did not want to leave the cult. Eventually, even though we were married for almost 20 years; she left me and took my daughter with her when she chose the cult over me. It really hurts that you can lose the people who are the most important in the world to you all because the cult has brainwashed them into thinking they are better off leaving the man who always took good care of them and choosing a cult that is only going to use them to their own advantage and then spit them out when the are done with them.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteSorry to hear about your family. Unfortunatley its not an uncommon scenario with the NTCC. They use the unequally yoked concept and apply it to anyone who is not a member. They would rather break up a family than lose a member. This one point should be enough to condemn them. How can a church not place primary importance on the family unit? Terrible people leading this group, breaking up families and exploiting christians.
ReplyDeleteEric
True enough. Unfortunately NTCC members don't see that. The power of a cult is very strong. Breaking up families and exploiting Christians. That sums it up.
ReplyDeleteAs strong as it might be I think it's grip is beginning to loosen. I just have a feeling Kekel can't hold this together by sheer force like Davis could. Thus he's loosened the rules and made people more "comfortable". I'm sure the abuse still goes on to those most loyal but I think it's more about getting a mass of people than strict control of a rotating 500-800. To do that you have to give the people a bone from time to time (TV, movies, make up, dress code).
ReplyDeleteI don't see how there can be any control after the holier than thou standards have been dropped.
I just spoke to a man who worked very close with Kekel. Before they left at the end of last year the church was dwindling at Graham. Sounds like just a bunch of licensed Ministers of trying to hold it together. He said Kekel had gotten very cynical and negative through the years. The brother couldn't take it any longer so he and his wife and family left. Again, this is a man that worked very very close with Kekel in the bible school and in the church there. Very sad.
DeleteHolier than thou standards. Lol.
ReplyDeleteI guess what I mean is what's the appeal if you're no longer special? If you no longer live outside the world?
ReplyDeleteThey're a typical Assembly of God church now... So why jump through the hoops... I guess I'd rather go to HOPP if being hard core was my motive.
Agreed. No niche pretense. Davis developed a holiness prodict that he sucessfully peddled. There is no longer a market for it. Instead of completely retooling the product they are making minor cosmetic changes to contniue raking in profits as long as possible as the customer base continues to shrink.
ReplyDeleteEric
It seems that behind the compromise those that are truly in are still doing the holiness standards. Long Hair, Dresses, short hair for men... Just minor allowances though like some make up or high heals...
ReplyDeleteAm I wrong on this... Just looking at photo's this is what I'm seeing.
Who even cares, they're a bunch of losers. The people that stay longer than 4 years are losers who want to become preachers so they can dish it out. Or they are just trapped by a marriage... Whatever the case may be their standards aren't the issue, the issue is the individual who stays willingly.
ReplyDeleteGenerally I'm pretty harsh but in this particular case I'll have to disagree. I've known plenty of people who have stayed longer than 4 years who don't fall in either category that you described. Plenty of single guys who don't just want to "dish it out" and plenty who are willfully in a marriage where neither one is quote "trapped".
ReplyDeleteYes there are plenty of people who could be considered "losers". I prefer to refer to them as "brainwashed suckers" which I certainly fell in that category of. If it's any consolation to myself, I did internalize of lot of the garbage and openly question it from time to time. I did fight back against their oppression, poor abusive leadership, and narcissistic practices. I absolutely resisted that garbage and spoke against it and defied some of them sorry so called preachers. And finally I got fed up with it and not shortly after realized how thoroughly crooked the NTCC leadership actually is.
Where I agree with the "losers" part is when the "suckers" have obvious evidence proving the crookedness of these creeps, and they still ignore the obvious while willfully remaining a part of the sorry sad sick sadistic NTCC. I just don't agree with the 4 year part. The NTCC can be pretty good at keeping people in the dark and it can often take longer than 4 years to figure out who crooked those con artists really are.
Chief
I'll extend it to 6 years then, but not only that I'll refer only to servicemen's homes. One or both of the people in the marriage will want to go to bible college. The other is trapped. If they don't go then they're losers within the church and they feel like dirt and take it.
ReplyDeleteSorry for sounding harsh... Just the way I see it in general.
Trust me, I get it. I get pretty harsh myself, where the NTCC is concerned. I think I've been just about as harsh as some of the tougher critics. I do try to keep it real and accurate. Accuracy is important to me. Harshness without proof and or accuracy definitely doesn't help our cause though, I can tell you that. I do understand your point though and I generally agree. There are always exceptions but I do agree.
ReplyDeleteChief
I didn't become a preacher in NTCC to "dish it out," and I never did. I never browbeat people with hellfire, and not one time did I utter the phrase "All Christians Pay Tithe" when passing the plate. I loved God and wanted to help people, and I know plenty of others that fell into that category as well.Mind control is strong, and you might classify me as a loser, but I know that I was just a sincere "brainwashed sucker," as Chief put it.
ReplyDeleteThere are two classes in the borg--the exploiters and the exploited. Don't confuse them.
Thanks for clarifying that Vic as you are correct. I am still in the ministry, outside of ntcc, and my desires to reach people with the gospel. And we are doing that here where I am laboring, by the grace of God. Some of us do have a call in our life and whether in or out of the church there we must fulfill the call of God Upon Our Lives.
DeleteYeah, I may seem like I'm somewhat flip flopping but I have to agree with Vic. I was a sucker; no doubt. I was brainwashed; no doubt. I just looked up the term "loser" and here is an urban definition that I found. People who many times are unable to raise their social status, i.e. a loser. Also, a person who is unable to be successful on a sustained basis.
ReplyDeleteOf course that is somewhat relative but Vic and I have proved that we could and can be "successful" on a sustained basis while raising our "social status". We both stayed in the NTCC for longer than 4 years or 6 years. Having said all that, I can be pretty harsh also so certainly don't fault you for your views. I do think there are "losers" in the NTCC but I don't think holding that status has anything to do with the length of time spent in the org. There are people in the org who would fit the definition of loser from day one or day three thousand and one.
Vic/Chief,
ReplyDeleteMy apologies for being a bit harsh... Loser may not be the right word.
I suppose if you're in the borg for longer than six years you're just a dedicated brainwashed sucker.
If you end up in the ministry then I suppose that holds you for even longer as you don't want to fail at a new career.
I'm glad you're both out as clearly you're no losers... I think it's because there is just too much info online and too much change since RW died that you can't tell me these people are just dedicated brainwashed suckers. They're stinking idiots.
In fact they have to know they're wrong and have been compromised. Especially if they're preachers in the org.
Well, maybe I wasn't a loser, but I was definitely fulfilling that role. No one wins in NTCC, except the overlords, but even that's illusory--they're really the biggest losers of all.
ReplyDeleteMy only consolation is that the leaders have to live with themselves. I believe RWD died a lonely old man, in pain, afraid of his future, afraid of what some ex-member might do to him (why do you think they have all those locked gates and two guards who watch the compound at night?).
ReplyDeleteI also believe MCK feels trapped. Sure, he might have access to a fortune; but he is trapped by "the schedule". Yes, he has more free time than most people. Especially people who work on real jobs. Yet he has to fulfill the pretense of being "the man of god" - no doubt this in itself vexes him from time to time. Good, because he is nothing more than a big phony who hides behind other people, rules, and double talk.
After I left the org, I spoke to MCK and called him out for hiding behind "i didn't know" and "that is not what I/He/She meant". I told him I lost respect for him when he said over the pulpit, "The church does not owe you anything" - his evasive response was, "Well, what was the context?"
I told him the context did not matter because I watched him over the years and his life displayed the very same attitude so their was no need for clarification.
Sure, they "give" and "bless" - but only when they see an advantage in it. Only when they hope for some future loyalty will they part with any kind of gift or offering to an individual; otherwise NTCC is their god and cash cow.
I'm afraid you nailed it on that last statement. It's very sad.
DeleteWow, really good post. That's cool information about the communication between you and MCK. I like that.
ReplyDeleteI might start a new thread with this information. It's good stuff.
Chief
I remember one soldier at the servicemens home who had lost his mom and left him a pretty good inheritance.
ReplyDeleteThe pastor right away told rw and sooner then later the soldier not even out of the army and was attending graham! We found out later that he asked the pastor about how much tithe he needed to pay because the taxes and all that plus the home his dear mom left him, to him all this was a gain for him and wanted to tithe.
Well, rw right away told the pastor to send him to graham and start living on the dorms that way this soldier would give the tithe to graham.
Anon is right when he says they they will change and be a blessing and try to be accommodating if they see some gain in it.
d
ReplyDeleteI too believe he died lonely but what did he value? POWER. He had what he wanted. An obedient flock that financed his spending habits.
ReplyDeleteI just hope justice can still be served on the other D-B@#s
You were right about those Cavs, Chief. I haven't followed basketball for years but enjoyed that game 7. The Warriors didn't get it done, and Lebron was a beast.
ReplyDeleteThanks Don. I'm happy for the city of Cleveland and the Cav fans. It's great to be a fan in a situation like that. You understand that as well as anyone. Oh and by the way. The NTCC sucks and it's leaders are Chippy Cheatin Swindling Scoundrels and Hucksters. I still have a hard time understanding how people will follow people like the Kekels when there is so much concrete evidence proving them to be the money grubbing con artists and scoundrels they in fact are.
ReplyDeleteFear. Fear of change. Fear of hell. Fear of losing all of their friendships. Fear of starting over. Fear of breaking up their family.
ReplyDeleteFor those still in ntcc, you can leave the NTCC and the fear behind. Life only gets better once you leave. Have the conversation with your spouse today. Take a couple weeks off from the NTCC and see how pressure is relieved from your life. Go to the park this saturday. Stay home on Thursday and relax a little. Go check out a movie or something fun. Enjoy life.
Eric
Good comment, Unknown.
ReplyDeleteBut as for this statement, "Fear of losing all of their friendships."
Let's just say (a) They will drop you like a bad habit if you leave ntcc. and (b) Real friends do not drop you. So, losing their so-called friendship is no loss. They're not truly friends.
That's a fact. Their friendships are conditional. Conditional on you staying in that crappy church that's no more than a psychological mind trap geared to bleeding you of every dime they can get. Get you to Graham, rent their homes, rent their church buildings, pay you on the building crew, pay tithes on the money they pay you, offerings, special offerings, pledges, camp ground offerings, world missions pledges that are no world missions at all. They have 100 ways to get your money and guilt trip you if you ain't willing to give it. Tithes on tax returns that you've already paid tithes on for crying out loud. It's so absurd that it's actually comical. I have very little pity for NTCC folks any longer. I pity the children. I'd rather have the Kekel's as friends if it came right down to it.
ReplyDeleteI'd pick a millionaire huckster over a broke down sucker. Why not??? I could ride in the Kekels car without worrying about getting stuck on the side of the road. Go to their house for dinner and expect more than some old crusty cheese ramen noodle surprise and left over spam. Think about it... If you were in the apocalypse and you had to choose, would you rather team up with a broke down sucker or a crafty huckster? I'd rather have neither but if I had to choose I'd take the huckster any day. The sucker can't bring anything to the table.
I just hate it for the children.
Chief - you are a slimy scumbag reminiscent of a used condom on the ground of a Walmart parking lot. I would not have anything to do with those hucksters. If it seriously came down to an apocalypse situation; I would enjoy taking them out of the equation and plundering all of their spoils.
ReplyDeleteNow, maybe you are trying to get some of these stupid idiots who follow these hucksters to wake up and see how pathetic their lives have become. I could understand that type of thinking; but there is no excuse for the evil deeds committed by the leadership of ntcc. Surely you have enough self respect to stay away from these hucksters regardless of the circumstances.
These people are the lowest of the low. They heartlessly destroy families; purposely hold people back from a multitude of opportunities with the intent of using anyone and everyone who will submit to them. They have no regard for god, nor their fellow man. Everything belongs to them in their mind. Seriously, it was weird when Verna Davis told Mat Reed that "he belonged to them" - these people are deranged.
Bubba
Haha. I like that kind of heart, (without the excessive vulgarity thank you). So I'm a slimy blah blah blah blah of a Walmart parking lot. I can live with that as long as you are not preaching at me saying that I need to get right with God and preaching that I need to get rid of the bitterness. LOL. That's actually funny. Don't mind being called names as I know what my intent was. If it got that kind of rise out of you, maybe it turned on the brains of the lost, brainwashed minions.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that you could have got a little less graphic but I guess it can remain so folks can see I'm not thin skinned. Do me a favor though, try not to get quite as nasty next time you chew me out on this blog. That's pretty vulgar. A little more than I prefer as it might prevent some "on the fence" NTCCer from reading this blog which is not my objective. Anyway, outside of the vulgar stuff good comment Bubba.
Of course if it did come down to the apocalypse, I'd have bigger fish to fry than those hucksters. It would be a waste of energy going after them. The world is full of quote, "NTCC hucksters" so what's the point.
Trust me, in this day and age, we have more to worry about than some Christian con artists. They don't want to kill you, they are after your money. They can't con you out of your money if you are dead and they are in jail. They can't live in their mansions from a jail cell. If this world continues to head in the direction that it clearly appears to be heading, the extreme Christian hucksters may wind up as good allies, trust me. You can't defeat extremism unless you are willing to be at least a little extreme yourself. You ever heard, "the enemy of my enemy is my frined"?? You are not quite as smart as you think you are Bubba but I get it nevertheless.
Again read carefully: If you were in the apocalypse and you had to choose, would you rather team up with a broke down sucker or a crafty huckster?
ReplyDeleteThe key part of that question is "and you had to choose".
Make no mistake, if I had to choose one or the other, (in other words, only two options and two options only) I'd still take crafty huckster. I mean that. So Bubba, you'd pick the broke down sucker? You wouldn't last long in the apocalypse. All that dude would be worried about is paying his tithe to the crafty huckster and getting all spiritual instead of taking action. The sucker would be dead weight. At least crafty hucksters take action. Broke down suckers, (in my experience) only hope something happens or goes their way. Crafty hucksters take action and make things go their way. I'm a take action kind of guy and I'm thankful for God's help when it appears to have come. I'm not a take no action guy and hope for God's help and then think I did something wrong when God's help doesn't come.
I'm not saying I like Christian hucksters because frankly I can't stand them. What I'm saying, and this can't be denied, is that they get more done than some sucker who can't even use their brain to think straight any longer. In the apocalypse I don't need someone who's brain is so twisted that they can't even make logical, sensible decisions any longer. I don't need someone who's only major concern is taking orders from the huckster because he can't use his brain enough to make decisions for himself.
Chief,
ReplyDeleteI certainly will not preach at you and tell you to get right. I am done with that kind of life. I know we are basically on the same side here, so there is no need to argue about some mythical idea that society will crumble and lawlessness will reign supreme and it will be every man for himself and whatever alliances he can make.
I have about as much faith in that happening as I do Yellowstone blowing up. Nothing we can do to stop either one; so why even worry about it?
Anyway, I would like to extrapolate your idea of only two choices between two distinct type of people. Even though I think the concept can be narrow minded; there are times when it can be useful in getting a point across.
I would like to boil down the religions of the world (including Christianity and Islam) into two types of people:
1. Those that seek their own righteousness
2. Those that seek the righteousness of others
True, those who seek their own righteousness miss the point; but they also are driven and determined to be right in their own understanding. These kind of people end up being the leaders of controlling religious groups. These kind of people are also willing to commit horrible atrocities to obtain their righteousness. Sure we have Islamic terrorism taking advantage of these kind of people, people who would do anything to "be right". We see this also to a lessor degree in religious movements in the US; but it is still there.
I think many of the people who stay in NTCC feel like they have to if they want to "be right". This doesn't make them total brain dead losers; brainwashed YES. But the good thing about brainwashing is that it can be reversed. I am free of this cults influence and living my own life so there is still hope for some of these people.
2. The people who seek righteousness for others are the special ones. These are the people who would do anything to help a brother or a sister out. Not to "please the Pastor" - but out of the sincere goodness of their own hearts simply wanting to see other people be blessed.
Most of this type of person with a genuine heart will see through the sham and move on as they see how people are really treated in the ntcc.
Another thing that bothers me about ntcc is they are always working to find new lives to destroy. More young people getting swept up into the lies and manipulation, hucksters taking advantage of young people who come from broken families and breaking them down even more. I personally am not giving up on witnessing the demise of this group.
They certainly are not growing. Kekel has never built a congregation. He doesn't know what to do. They have not been able to fill that church in Graham (unless they have a conference in it) since the split with HOP. All the money in the world can't do you any good if you have to face yourself in the mirror and know deep down you are struggling to keep it together. Sure Kekel knows how to manipulate people and use them to do his bidding; but as they wise up they leave and Kekel has to train someone new. What keeps them going is the same thing that keeps them from growing; only so many people are going to let you use them; and even among them it is only for so long and they get up and leave. Kekel has no true friends. Seriously, the people close enough to him to be his friend have all also seen those moments when his anger boils over to the point you know this is an evil man at heart.
Come on Chief, you really don't want to choose a loser like Kekel to be on your team. I guess it can be a good thing if you have been out so long that you have forgotten what these people are really like in their everyday lives.
Bubba
I know what they are like. It ain't been that long. I also know what the brainwashed are like. Some of them will never become un-brainwashed. The world is full of them. They don't all figure it out. Some will remain NTCCers for life or for so long that it might just as well be for life. So again, those type of people are somewhat useless because without a church like the NTCC, they are too often lost. Many of them really can't make logical sound decisions without consulting some religious huckster i.e. NTCC pastor for example. They are taught not to make decisions on their own without consulting a pastor/huckster and as the years go on they become unable to think rationally and logically without some spiritual superstitious twist being placed on everything. I'm telling you, I've witnessed it on countless occasions. Then in many cases, even when they do leave the NTCC, they become trapped by some other religious huckster because that's all they know. It has become their life, their way of thinking. Sure some get away and learn but many don't.
ReplyDeleteI know what I'm talking about. And I just can't deal with clueless people like that. It's frustrating. They are fake, confused and more often than not, deceived. The hucksters have a plan and direction however crooked it may be. The minions just explain away their failures buy saying, "ITS GODS WILL, PRAISE GOD", and it ain't Gods will at all. "God just hasn't blessed me yet, it's all in Gods time, blah blah blah blah and it's just an excuse to explain away their failures.
And the reason I'm entertaining this dialogue is because I made a statement and the next thing I know I'm like dung in a Walmart parking lot. So, you've made your point and I've made mine and the good thing about this blog is that (unless there is self righteous preaching) it's allowed to take place. I didn't' delete your comment because frankly I thought is was kind of funny and it didn't bother me at all because I'm not insecure. I'll tell you this though: You take a platoon of brainwashed followers and all I have to do is take you out and they are done. I take a platoon of crafty hucksters, and with or without me, they are going to get the job done. Crooked as they may be (and they are), hucksters like Davis, Denis, Barnes and Jones do get things accomplished and that was my only point.
Kekel is not a loser. He is a hypocrite, huckster, con artist, spoiled, everything handed to him on a platter dude, but not a loser. Kekel is not the one who lost. The ones who continue to fund his greedy agenda are the ones who lose. The ones who leave the NTCC and jump out of the pot and back into the kettle are the ones who will continue to lose. Too many people who leave the NTCC never learn from their mistakes. I don't like Kekel one single bit. I don't dislike this brainwashed dude I know who is still in the NTCC being used one single bit. The problem is the brainwashed dude don't have a clue and Kekel knows exactly what he is doing and if I had to choose I don't need the clueless dude on my team. In other words I think the clueless dude is worse off than the huckster. Just because you are clueless doesn't mean you are heading to heaven.
Not sure how useful the hucksters would be in an apocalyptic situation. The hucksters have never had to survive on their own, they only seem to thrive off of the oppression of others. They aren't use to working, they don't have jobs, they only care about you if you pay for their services. What kind of services do they offer? Oh, I forgot, they offer salvation. The hucksters might end up stabbing you in the back to save their own hide.
ReplyDeleteThe brainwashed suckers however, are good at following orders. If you tell them it's God's will to protect you, they might fight till their dying breath defending you. They also can provide you with cheap labor. In all actuality the brain washed suckers can be pretty useful in any application. Let's say you wanted to start your own cult, for instance. They'll help you buy a building, a house to live in, a car to drive and they'll even work for free to make your new empire habitable. They'll paint your house, mow your lawn, shine your shoes, clean your house and ignore your sins. They'll even provide you with spending money. You can take up offerings every day of the week and they'll give until they are broke.
The hucksters wouldn't be hucksters unless they had brainwashed followers. What would ntcc hucksters do if all the sudden they had to fend for themselves? Not sure. But you are right, they are crafty and resourceful. As long as their are week minded people with strong backs willing to serve them the hucksters will thrive. Throw in an apocalypse, however, and it's every man for himself. Not sure if the hucksters would last a day if you take away all of the suckers who are willing to support them.
The above comment was an attempt to add a little light heartedness to the topic at hand. What Chief shared earlier seemed to be more of a rhetorical statement than anything. I know that Chief has no love for the ntcc, in fact he has spent more time exposing them and done as much to wake people up as anyone else has. That whole used condom thing was totally uncalled for, but there were some pretty good points made by Bubba. Not sure how long you have been following this blog, but if you have followed it for any length of time you would know that there is no love loss between Chief and the ntcc. As you said, we are all on the same side here. We might not agree with everything, but for the most part, we all agree that the ntcc sucks.
ReplyDeleteI personally don't understand the personal attack against Chief. That whole comment about a used condom? That just sounds like a personal experience, Bubba, like, something you just witnessed as you finished having illicit sex with a prostitute, male or female, in the Walmart parking lot. Shaking my head. You really sound like a nut.
ReplyDeleteChief, you have a point, but so does Don, and based on what I know about the crafty hucksters under discussion, it would be foolish and dangerous to ally with them. They can't be trusted and would kick you to the curb to save their own skins in a heartbeat. They're treacherous and wicked, whereas at least the suckers often have good hearts and proper motives. They might not have many resources to bring to the table, but at least they'll bring them and not hold back. Those other guys would just put on an act in an effort to get you to fulfill the brainwashed sucker role while they hogged all the benefits. Beware!
ReplyDeleteHahahaha!!!!! Fair enough. Don and Vic made some good points which I can not refute. Many of my comments were born of frustration. It's not just the NTCC either. Hardly a week or month goes by without running into some brainwashed over spiritual individual and it's plain there is no end in sight. Having said that it's really no big deal. My life is good and for the most part I've given up trying to open the eyes of the deceived.
ReplyDeleteLast night, my son and I looked up pictures of mansions belonging to religious leaders.
My son was totally amazed. He could hardly believe it. We were talking about the state of the world (after just watching a special on terrorism in France) and extremism and naturally the topic of religion came up and the next thing you know we were on Google looking at pictures of many extremely lavish mansions belonging specifically to religious leaders. Anyway he was amazed that so many people will sacrifice and do anything to line the pockets of rich religious leaders. He said he didn't have the heart to take advantage of people like that and it just reminded me of how lost the brainwashed followers really are.
In a strange way it has made me have more respect for the hucksters vs the brainwashed followers. The reality is I have no respect for the hucksters but you get my point. If you ever watch the Walking Dead it's the heartless who actually succeed in the apocalypse and in real life that is also true to a degree. There is real trouble in the United States and the rest of the world for that matter and it will take extremism to effectively combat the extreme. I could be wrong but I suspect that eventually our government will melt down and at that point it will be every man for himself and to survive you must have resources and friends with resources.
Wow Anonymous, you sure are quick to jump to conclusions. Truth is when I was writing my comment to Chief I tried to think of the most disgusting think I could think of and I remembered recently pulling into a Walmart parking lot during the day with my 9 year old daughter in the car. Thankfully it was on my side of the car and not hers. She didn't see it and I didn't say anything about it.
ReplyDeleteThe thing about my comment is Chief took it in stride. I can respect that. I also believe he knew where I was coming from. No big deal we are all adults here, I assume. I can tend to get a little graphic at times, but I will tone it down because I really am not out to offend any of you. There is no need for us to fight each other over things that don't matter.
Bubba
Chief you are right about some people need someone to tell them what to do. This is a fact of life for all people. When you look at IQ studies, 10% of the population have low IQ's. These low IQ people can be high maintenance for a religious huckster because the literally are too stupid to live their own life so they keep getting themselves into some kind of trouble that makes them run to the pastor. How many times does Kekel not answer the phone because he doesn't what to waste 30 minutes talking to one of his problematic church member?
You are right Chief. It is the manipulators and the heartless that are in control of everything. I also got your point about the Hucksters. They are financially stable, they drive reliable cars and they live in nice houses. The brainwashed suckers deprive themselves of all these things for the privilege of being slaves to them. You can't rely on a brainwashed sucker. The ntcc suckers are unstable, live from paycheck to paycheck, drive oil puking junkers and live in temporary housing for the most part. They never achieve stability because their resources are always being tapped by the double standard swindling hucksters.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that you can look at this from many different angles and draw different conclusions. People can be so narrow minded about things that they attack people for having their own opinions. I've definitely been there. It seems like most of us agree on much more than we disagree on. Some things are fun to argue about. Like football, for instance. I have bragging rights but choose not to use them because whenever I do, I end up eating crow. When I sit back and let my team do the talking and keep my trap shut, they win the Superbowl. Go figure.
NTCC breeds co-dependence on the pastor. They condition young GIs to come to them because they want control in their life and paycheck. Then when they become too conditioned its viewed as an inconvenience and the member is blamed for being dumb or taking a bottle of stupid pills. Kekel is a punk and would be another cog in corporate Americas wheel if he wasn't married to Davis' illegitmate child.
ReplyDeleteBeing born on 3rd is not the same thing as hitting a triple.
Eric
Heck, I don't blame Kekel in that regard. I'm serious about that one. I wouldn't answer the phone either. That's why I took my phone number off this website. I tried to eliminate any trace of it. You wouldn't believe the calls I was getting. I mean some of these people who were calling me WERE OUT THERE!!!! WAY OUT THERE if you get what I mean. You couldn't talk any sense into them. It was like talking to a tree stump or a rock. I'm sure a lot of them were pretty odd before even joining the NTCC. Then you combine that with the NTCC and you got a real doozy. Some of these folks brains were really scrambled.
ReplyDeleteI would get frustrated in the middle of the "conversation", (if that's what you want to call it) and then I would get cynical. Then I would be like, "Dude look, I got to get going, I can't help ya". Heck, then two days would go by and I'd meet someone who thought it was "Gods will" to raise $65 million dollars for Creflo Dollar's private jet. I'm dead serious. And there is no shortage of these people. The U.S. is full of them. Millions and millions and millions.
Then I'm like, "Wow, I'm worried about the NTCC? That's just a drop in the bucket"!!! So I ask myself, "Why do I even waste my time on these blogs". Well I know why I do now. It occasionally can be somewhat entertaining. And I still have a glimmer of hope that one day I will open this blog to find that the law finally caught up with the NTCC leadership but I ain't holding my breath waiting for that one to happen.
Kekel sees these NTCC guys as dummies because he told me so on the phone about 8 years ago. He sees quite a few of the NTCC pastors as dummies which is actually who he was referring to. Kekel has nothing but disdain for a bunch of NTCCers and so did Davis. Davis thought they were stupid and gullible and he said as much. Davis would find humor in it and in that regard he and I have a definite commonality. Sure there's nothing funny about it but just how stupid can you get?? I'm just being honest. Sure I was brainwashed also but when I talk to some of these guys I'm absolutely amazed just how gullible they've become. I mean they bought of on the land deal for crying out loud and worse than that, Olson's response attempting to justify it. I thought Olson's explanation was insulting but the suckers bought off on it hook line and sinker.
Wow, this is some pretty good dialogue here. DnA, I like that response. I like Eric's also. That's so true. Get control of them but then get frustrated when they can't think on their own. "Viewed as an inconvenience". Well put. That's these NTCCers for you. Cantrell got to a place where he wouldn't make decisions without consulting Olson. This is a 50+ year old guy I'm talking about. This guy wouldn't even sell his house without getting Olson's approval.
ReplyDeleteThat ain't me. I bought and sold three houses without even considering or asking for their opinion and through it all, things have worked out just fine and life is good. One hell of a lot better than it was when I was in the NTCC. I mean, NO COMPARISON!!!!!!!!!!!!! The NTCC will suck the life out of you and you ain't no more right with God then you were when you joined the sorry organization. In fact I'm convinced beyond doubt that you are worse.
I don't quote scripture much but this one is totally applicable. Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
That's the NTCC in a nutshell. I'm convinced that these NTCCers are not Godly but totally to the contrary. What we were a part of in the NTCC was anything but good or Godly.
Chief
Nice expletive. Who's the stupid one?
DeleteI can't remember the last time I used a condom but I know I don't think it ended up in the Wal mart parking lot.
ReplyDeleteChief said, "That's the NTCC in a nutshell. I'm convinced that these NTCCers are not Godly but totally to the contrary. What we were a part of in the NTCC was anything but good or Godly."
ReplyDeleteBubba says Amen!
For me, the thing about the blogs that I love is we come to the table with this common denominator, this factor that we all have in common is that our eyes have been enlightened, experience has taught us that NTCC is a destructive organization and they do more harm than good in the long run. What we have in common is we are all awake to the fact that the ntcc is anything but godly. When I say we, I mean the core group of blog administrators (that goes all the way back to 2004/5)and commenters.
Sure you get new guy coming to the blogs trying to defend the indefensible and if they are honest with themselves after awhile some of them wake up and leave the org. That is worth it all guys. Keep the light shining , it works. I know I tried to defend the org at one time and said some pretty stupid things; but eventually I could no longer defend them with a clean conscience.
If I traveled the path from defend to one who wants to de-fund them :)
Then ANYONE can!
I would just like to see some more stories told, old threads people have forgotten about renewed. Running these blogs is like keeping the threat of exposure right in ntcc's face everyday.
I do not care about your theology or lack thereof. I do not care what kind of lifestyle you choose to live. I don't even need to like you as a person. We can disagree on almost every other social or political issues - if you are glad to be free; we are on the same side as far as I am concerned.
Bubba
Bubba... So correct. I fear the day D/A and Chief give up or quit... The web page might live on but the updates and harassment that's necessary to provoke fear in the higher ups will fade.
ReplyDeleteI love knowing they dread what they have to hear and put up with on a monthly basis. I love knowing they are being harassed
Sorry, harassed might be the wrong word... Exposed...
ReplyDeleteMike
Who wrote this ntcc exposed live journal:
ReplyDeletehttp://ntcc.livejournal.com/profile
It's really good!
Whoops, that was the profile. This is the page.
ReplyDeletehttp://ntcc.livejournal.com
That's a clone of the old NTCCXPOSED.COM site, where the dead links point. The content was written by Brian Pelfrey. There's another iteration at http://ntccreality.blogspot.com/ , where you can read it all.
ReplyDeleteYears ago, that was the source of some of the best information exposing what the NTCC leadership was truly all about. It became very evident very quickly to anyone with a marginally functional brain, that R.W. Davis, Olson and Kekel were no more than money hungry crooks and con artists. What really became apparent was that there were two distinctly different sets of standards within the NTCC. One set of standards for all the minions like me at the time and one for the Kekel family.
ReplyDeleteIt's so obvious and evident that it's not even funny. Grant definitely lived by a different set of standards than anyone else who's parents actually tried to follow all the phony bologna "NTCC" holiness rules. At that time it's likely that your children's childhood hood sucked in contrast to Grants childhood filled with sports, school activities, vacations, and "lascivious" clothing such as shorts and tight football uniforms. At least it was considered lascivious according to NTCC standards that the Kekels were never required to follow.
We were suckers that got took to the cleaners so Grant could attend a $20,000 a year private academy while in grade school for crying out loud at our expense. We got used plain and simple and anyone who says otherwise is a flat out liar and brainwashed to the max or a con artist, one or the other.
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ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDelete"I just spoke to a man who worked very close with Kekel. Before they left at the end of last year the church was dwindling at Graham. Sounds like just a bunch of licensed Ministers of trying to hold it together. He said Kekel had gotten very cynical and negative through the years."
Why not say who it is? If you put a name along with this it totally makes it credible. If you don't, your story is basically worthless and the cult dodges another bullet.
Sometimes people don't want their names put out there. Don't blame them a bit.
ReplyDeleteYou don't need a name. What I am telling you as credible.
ReplyDeleteWhen I attended Graham in 1999 the church had about 1200 in attendance. I recall Kekel commenting about having 2K by 2K. Last I heard the church has about 600. If thats accurate, the church has dwindled. For a pastor thats a good reason to be depressed. For a huckster, thats causebfor a therapist.
ReplyDeleteEric
How many of those 600 are (B)ible (S)chool retreads or washed up preachers? And how many consist of remnants of congregations that the borg assimilated into Graham from Tacoma, Lakewood, etc. (which they did at one point)? They threw a sop to the pastors for stealing their churches by making them Graham underlings with fancy assistant pastor titles, but zero authority and no doubt measly salaries.
ReplyDeleteThey're not reaching anyone from the community, because people that live around there are already onto the fact that they're a weird cult. I remember Gesang preaching one time and stating that in the preceding year there had been 800 visitors, three of whom remained (who are undoubtedly gone by now too). It was hilarious that they were telling these future pioneer preachers that they were going to be able to go out into the ministry and "dig out a work" from scratch with no help (and plenty of hindrance) from the org and very meager personal resources when they themselves could only muster a pathetic three eighths of one percent retention rate even though they boasted state of the art facilities, golden-tongued orators, piles of cash, and armies of soul winners. Mike Kekel routinely mocked the returning preachers, browbeating them as losers and failures, but they at least gave it a shot, which is more than he ever did. His nest has been luxuriously feathered from the day he hooked up with the boss's daughter, yet he persists in pretending he "made it happen." Nevertheless, the masses continue to suck up to him just like the peasants fawned over the naked emperor's new clothes. Truly there is a sucker born every minute. I was duped myself for many years, but eventually no amount of denial could obscure the vast disparity between the words and actions of these charlatans and those of Jesus as recorded in the bible.
The NTCC "leadership" consists of fakes and exploiters--the sooner you flee and shake the dust off your feet, the sooner you can start making real progress, both spiritually and materially. Do it!
It's probably true that the numbers are shrinking in graham, they're having some services and bible studies in the small chapel or the fellowship hall,
ReplyDeleteThey're saying that it isn't the leadership fault that preachers and members are leaving that it's the people that don't want God.
They're using the judas analogy who had the best pastor , teacher and leader and yet he left why wouldn't others be exempt of this reality, but hey what do I know about anything.
Just saying.
Sounds like you know a lot. They want to call everyone who leaves a Judas; yet never accept any blame for destroying people and causing them to want to leave.
ReplyDeleteYes, Jesus was the best teacher and he lost one out of twelve. NTCC is so bad at soul winning that they can't even keep one out of twelve. They can't keep one out of 250 - and they call themselves teachers. They can't teach because they do not know what they are doing and the are too proud to admit it.
Pride is blind and Kekel is the reason Graham is such a losing congregation. No wonder that church is full of discouraged people - from the pulpit to the pew.
True that. From the pulpit...associate pastors not too happy under MCK leadership. Sad.
Delete"Sometimes people don't want their names put out there. Don't blame them a bit."
ReplyDeleteYou are right and I didn't mean to sound harsh towards the one who shared that Someone close to Kekel had left. My point was that there were not enough details to draw any conclusions. Someone close to Kekel, could be a teacher, a pastor, a soul winning captain or even just a member of a church.
"You don't need a name. What I am telling you as credible."
It's credible to you, but what about everyone else? Davis was always very secretive. The NTCC board members and leaders set this thing up so that they wouldn't have to answer for the things they do. They are tight lipped about those who leave. My point was not to offend you or the person who wrote the comment, but people want to know who leaves. It gives us confirmation that we were not the only ones mistreated. People do have a right to their privacy, and I understand that. It's frustrating when people leave the organization and they seem to remain under the same cloud of fear as those who continue to stay and play the same mind games. I would guess that 50% or more of the people who comment are anonymous, and that is great. They have a lot to add and they definitely have their reasons for being anonymous. Some folks don't want their name on a public blog. So I guess in that sense, I was wrong for saying that your story was worthless. I do think that if there was a name attached to it, that people would identify with it much more than without a name. I personally hate when this cult gets away with their actions. They cause people to leave and they keep them silent even after they leave. People are still afraid of the judgmental teachings. MCK doesn't want people to share why they left because it validates all of the others who left and he doesn't want to lose any more of his brainwashed subjects who are still in. Case in point: Bellamy. He came on this blog and identified himself and shared why he got out. MCK was so mad that he wrote him a letter which he published on this blog. Many of the ministers who left were sincere and there were people who knew them well and cared about them. MCK would much rather have preferred Bellamy to remain silent or at least not to share his name. Sharing his name and his story made him a much more credible witness. That's my point, for what it is worth.
As I said before, the man was an associate pastor and a teacher and an office worker in the Bible School. He was not a church member. Credible enough for you? Or are you still confused?
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ReplyDeleteThank you Diana for participating in this blog. The people from ntcc were never really our friends anyway. Everything was always conditional to our obedience to the pastor. If we obeyed, then people would befriend us. The moment we walk away from the org, all that so called love just evaporates.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, Diana, I do not know if you have shared your story publicly before. I do not think I have ever heard what caused you to want to leave the org. Would you mind sharing that for the sake of others?
Hey Diana.
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ReplyDeleteDiana,
ReplyDeleteI am the one who wanted to know your story. I was going to email you, but I guess I was too slow to act on the information you posted. I need to remain anonymous in public for now, but if you repost your email I will contact you promptly.
Thanks
Curious
My kids and I are going counseling of what rev Joey perez did to our family
ReplyDeleteI'm so sorry to hear about your wife. I used to go to this church until I realized it was all lies. Do you know if the perezes wife knew about the affair? You said they got caught. Do you know who caught them? I used to be in the staff and it's been eating me alive thinking that there are people who knew of misconduct but just refused to shed light to the truth. Do you know why any of the other staff members left?
Deletehi the affair was truly insane to me can i ask you more about this?
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