The NTCC is a church which is full of little Kitty Cat haters. They think that Cats are evil.
Thread #29 I am starting a new thread because this topic has been going pretty strong on the previous thread, and Dawn has quite appropriately reminded me that there are more effective ways to sift through a blog than to read 100 posts under the exact same thread. Dawn is right so here we go. I said that for two reasons: Number one because Dawn was in fact right and number two because I want folks to know that I will rapidly act on suggestions from blog participants. I will seriously consider all suggestions from all parties as they pertain to the betterment of this blog.
Now back to the cult thread. I am going to be my own devils advocate here for a moment. I have looked up the definition of a cult and posted it on the previous thread. I also gave examples of how the NTCCs practices very closely mirror the text book definitions of a cult. Guess what; in all fairness to the NTCC; teachings in the Bible also very closely mirror the text book definitions of a cult. As a result many churches could be considered a cult so I posted this question on the previous thread. Are all cults bad? Also why do we think the NTCC is a "bad" cult. I know why I think the NTCC is a bad cult. I specified my reasons on the previous thread.
Concerned NTCC Minister wrote this and I quote: In regard to the fact that many of these attributes seem to match up, I would just like to ask all thinking individuals to consider the fact that these attributes also match many other organizations, including the government.
Jeffs response: I try my best to be a fair and honest broker of this blog. Concerned NTCC Minister is absolutely right and I offer no "buts" or apologies. Some NTCC folks may want to consider taking a few pointers from Concerned Minister. In my opinion, he has more effectively represented the NTCC than anyone who has posted on Factnet or any of the rest of these blogs. I may not always agree with him, which I don't, but often I can't refute the mans statements nor do I want to when he offers only pure logic in a respectful manner. I would like to have the man over to my house for dinner and if you think I am kidding, I'm not. I don't hate NTCC folks. I just can't stand the abuse, the double standards and worse than both of those, THE DENIAL.
Oh and I can't stand most of their absurd rules which is the main reason I think the NTCC is a bad cult. It is called unorthodox extremism. Teaching that Cats are evil is extreme and certainly unorthodox. Having an adult stand against a wall so they can ask permission to date some one, is unorthodox, extreme, and a rule that could have only been dreamed up by a control freak, who runs his church like a "BAD" cult.
Jeff
i thought i would add these traits of a healthy church in contrast to the list that Casey added of a 'cultic' church
ReplyDeleteContrast 15 differences of a healthy church:
1. The group has respect and admiration for it’s leader but the leader and the people recognize he is fallible and points them to Jesus as the only one they can truly depend on and trust
2. Questions and doubts are freely discussed and logically disputed, dissent is viewed from a Biblical perspective and by no means dis-qualifies the persons Christianity.
3. Logical use of the mind is encouraged, Christianity is a ‘thinking mans’ religion- there is no place for mind altering practices (tongues is a biblical practice and by no means should alter the mind
4. The leadership encourages true holiness (a heart ever increasingly devoted to God) and encourages the people to go to the lord and seek him on his leading
5. The group realize that the body of Christ consists of far more than their church only and encourages fellowship with all other churches who hold to the fundamental doctrines of the faith.
6. The church realizes that though there is a spiritual battle being fought for the souls of men, that unregenerate man himself is not the enemy, but is being held captive by Satan to do his will. Thus, encouraging a heart of mercy for the unsaved and not viewing them as “the enemy”
7. The Pastor/leader will make himself accountable to some type of governing board due to his understanding and knowledge of his own weakness and sinfulness.
8. The group is taught that to obey God is the most important aspect of life regardless of the results and that God will honor and bless obedience if not in this life then in the life to come.
9. The leadership realizes that shame and guilt are tools of the enemy which is implied by his name “accuser of the brethren” and that the Holy Spirit ‘convicts’ his people but does not shame and guilt them.
10. The leadership will encourage the people to be a good witness to the work of Christ in their lives to there family members and will encourage prayer for their conversion.
11. The church is occupied with feeding and building up the body of Christ realizing that healthy sheep produce more healthy sheep
12. The church depends upon God to provide for its needs and realizes that accountability with money is of the utmost importance.
13. Members are encouraged to live a healthy lifestyle while making sure they put there wife/husband and children first after Jesus, church service coming after family
14. Members are encouraged to fellowship with other believers whether they be in the same church or not.
15. The most loyal members understand that there is no life apart from Jesus and he is there all in all.
take care all,
t
The debate over whether NTCC is a cult has been discussed for years now. When I first left NTCC I was told by a Christian businessman in the Puyallup area that EVERY church in town considered NTCC a cult. Then another man, who is not a Christian, told me that everyone he knows considered NTCC a cult. Now WHY would everybody in the area surrounding NTCC in Graham consider them a cult? There must be a reason. And don’t tell me “it’s the devil”, because that is a very naive response.
ReplyDeleteThe reason that every one (and by that I mean the majority of people) believe that NTCC is a cult, is because they ACT like a cult. Plain and simple. They’re extremely secretive ; paranoid about “outsiders” (hence all the guards); the members and ministers act strange (although they think they are acting normal); their preaching is sarcastic and angry most of the time; they believe that every church in town is sinful and compromising (that is why God “raised them up”); and they refuse to talk to or fellowship with neighboring Christian churches. If you phone the church office, instead of someone saying, “NTCC may I help you” (like a normal church), you get someone reciting their phone number. It’s weird. It is their ACTIONS not their DOCTRINE which causes people to think they are a cult. Plus the fact that they take their beliefs (even if Biblical) to EXTREMISM.
But, most convincing of all is how much DAMAGE they have done to their own members and ministers. This damage has been psychological, emotional and spiritual; and has been well-documented on Factnet, Tracy’s blog and elsewhere. The evidence is overwhelming. Normal churches just do not HARM their own members- Period! Normal churches do not try and split up a marriage when one spouse decides not to attend any more. Normal churches do not lie about why people their church. I could on and on.
My question is: If you know everyone thinks you are a cult, then why not really look at yourself and figure out what you are doing that makes people think this way? But, NTCC will NEVER look inward, because they believe that they (and ONLY they) are right with God, and EVERYONE else is wrong. But I’m here to tell you—it is pure arrogance on the part of NTCC to believe everyone is wrong and they are the only ones right with God. And until they come to the realization that they ARE wrong—NTCC will never be fixed and people will believe they are a cult until NTCC ceases to be.
a normal church
ReplyDeletehttp://www.homechurchhelp.com/normal%20church.html
RWD made it very clear that if you had cats, he would not come over to your house. Mayers, who is the pastor in Atlanta made it clear that he wouldn't come over to our house in Atlanta and he didn't what his daughter to come over to play with our daughter anymore because at the time we had picked up a cat for our daughter.
ReplyDeleteAnother NTCC minister told me that he and the brothers would drown cats in a well. Another NTCC minister who was a PASTOR, told me that NTCC brothers would swerve all over the road in an attempt to hit and kill cats while driving their cars. The sick thing about this is that all these guys that talked to me about killing cats would get all HAPPY and GLEE when they talked about the subject? So you see what RWD got started? And these nuts are NTCC ministers and pastors? What a bunch of nuts. These guys are sick and more so childish than sick, and such an individual doesn't need to be pastoring anyone.
That is why the NTCC is a cult because RWD manages to find followers that will loyally follow him regardless of what he teaches. He may not have directly told his followers to go out of the way to TORTURE and KILL CATS however he might as well have told them to do it when he decided to teach that they are evil beasts and he won't have anything to do with them. In that respect the guy is sick.
There is no justification in the bible for that what so ever, so why even bring it up in church? One word: CULT! And not just a cult but a BAD CULT because all churches are text book cults to one degree or another. These guys are not following Jesus, they are following RWD because Jesus NEVER taught to do such a thing, and that is a sure SIGN of a bad cult.
Jeff
a jim jones documentary
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMcboSS7KA0
there is a movie called the guyana tradgedy if anyone wants to see it.
i saw it as a little kid. the guy according to the movie started out sincere and lost it along the way.
i think the same has happened with davis. he started out sincere and changed somewhere along the way.
Speaking of the cat weirdness, I was at Rich Keener's one night in Graham, and he suddenly grabbed a PISTOL and fired a couple or three shots right out the back door at some poor cat he spotted outside! Phil Kinson told me with great glee about a cat that he observed getting dismembered by three pit bulls near the servicemen's home in Tillicum.
ReplyDeleteIt's a sick mentality, all right, and it originated at the very top.
Just thinking about what Casey said about the jim jones tragedy and how one of the loyalist said that if it wasn't for jones none of them would be there, it is so weird because just last conference some of the preachers told the people that if it wasn't for rwd to be obedient and accept the call to start this org, where would all of us be? One of the preachers said that he probably would be dead by now!
ReplyDeleteI didn't think anything about it until now that casey brought this tidbit about the jim jones cult. It is kind of eerie.
t,
ReplyDeleteI loved your post. I could add a lot to it but I have just 3 I would like to add for now
Or you can add to your list.
Healthy churches are not required or should I say demanded upon to pay a tithe to the main church. All the tithes a church brings in for that specific church are soley used for the needs of that specific church and are NOT retithed on to the larger church (like NTCC does).
If a husband gives his wife money for herself she is not required to tithe off it since the income of her husband has already been tithed on and that income is the household income and there for the money her husband gave her is not seperate from his income.
Also you are not required to tithe off your tax return since you tithed off your gross income all year long.
I better stop before I add a million other things to your list LOL.
God bless,
Angie
ps. please excuse the spelling and grammar errors if there are any. This thing does not have spell check and after writing papers for school that take all week the last thing I want to do is spell check a comment LOL.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteEric Hanna used to talk about launching mice in homemade rockets he used to make when he lived at the Serviceman's Home.
The mice normally would not survive.
I actually thought that was funny.
Rodents I can deal with people despising, cats and dogs and other animals, no.
MLJ
Rev MacDonald is back in Seoul, Korea per MC Kekel response to my email.
ReplyDeleteBro Johnson
No matter how you look at it, the whole cat hating thing is absurd. No one can dispute that the cat hating business has existed for a good long time in the NTCC. I wonder how it makes current NTCC folks feel when they read statements like this from people who post here? There are too many witnesses to discount the existence of the cat haters and it hasn't been just one or two people.
ReplyDeleteI know how it made me feel. Like the NTCC had entirely too many superstitious creeps in their organization and it didn't actually make me very proud to be a part myself. Boy does RWD have some of his people brainwashed.
If I was an NTCC minister I wouldn't even know where to begin if I ever decided to address the problem of the Cat hating debacle with the NTCC leadership? I guess it would go something like this:
Hey RWD; do you know that you have ministers running around trying to run over cats with their cars and drowning them in wells and shooting at them out the back door of their house and watching with glee as they get torn up by dogs?
I was just wondering RWD; but do you think all that stuff is good, you know, for a minister of the Gospel, you know, to run around devising cruel ways to slaughter sweet little house cats? I mean; it's not like they are mountain loins or anything like that RWD.
What, you hate cats also? RWD? RWD? Oh you wouldn't actually be the one to run around and torture and kill them? Oh, I see; so you just teach that cats are evil but you never expected your people to start running around and killing them? Ah, you do know that your loyal followers think you are the last Apostle or something like that right; and you want them to buy off on every last word that you speak so I was just wondering?
Did you think they wouldn't start running around trying to kill an animal that you've taught all along is an evil beast? Oh, I was just wondering? I guess it wasn't my place to ask. Sorry RWD, your right, I will keep rank from now on cause I guess that wasn't my business.
You are right cause who am I to question you about bunch of nuts who run around murdering poor innocent little kitty cats? My bad.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you will not get much response from this topic. This is another behavior that they would like to make go away or sweep under the rug. I not throwing stones because I'm no cat lover but I'm not a kitten killer either. That behavior is childish.
This question is for Darwin Durek,
ReplyDeleteMr. Durek, from viewing the 'student handbook' that Vic mentioned you were obviously on staff.
Could you please inform us if you do actually have a Bachelor's of Theology degree?
If not could you please make us aware of how the staff were "given" there degrees? are they just made up? or are they "honorary"?
i think your answer on this subject would shed much light on the mystery of Davis's "doctorate degree"
thank you,
T
i pulled this off of a previous thread, hoping Mr. Durek would take notice
any light that could be shed upon these "degrees" would be extremely helpfull
ReplyDeleteit would be almost surreal to think that a "christian" organization would lie about these things, but i suppose it is a lot easier to pull it off in Missouri than it would be on either of the coasts where people are a bit more educated
IF its proven that RWD does not have a Dr. degree then the whole gig is up...it just proves he is an unrepentent liar and has absolutely no credibility
but..... his "suckers" would continue to follow him
t
Mr. Durek is unlikely to respond. As far as I know he never posted on this blog. I quoted a statement from factnet that he wrote on factnet. I have never seen post before that and I have never seen him post since. He may have posted; I just didn't see it.
ReplyDeleteJeff.
L Travis said...
ReplyDeleteThis is another behavior that they would like to make go away or sweep under the rug. I not throwing stones because I'm no cat lover but I'm not a kitten killer either. That behavior is childish.
Jeff said...
I'm hoping to get some more responses from exNTCCers. You are right. I wouldn't expect to get much response from current NTCCers. Of course I would like to see what more people think about the kitty killing business?
Is it good Christian conduct or not to run around killing cats? Of course that was a rhetorical question.
Jeff
It isn't just cat's. Rw doesn't like dogs either. He had a Shepherd. Because they dog kept getting out. He got rid of the dog. I know of one couple that would not get a dog.There reason,rw davis would not come to there home if they had a indoor dog. I thought that was crazy. Not get a pet because one person would not come to your home. Some kind of dictatorship!
ReplyDeleteCM
NTCC ministers killing cats reflects a deeper problem.
ReplyDeleteIn the Army, if your Boss yells at you, you go home and take it out on your family (I pray to God I never do) or you kick the dog.
In NTCC's case, they KILL cats. What is the big deal with cats? Why cats? Do they represent evil? Do they represent the devil or a demon?
I have an idea. Let's place MC Kekel in a room full of 100 cats. He would go INSANE.
Again, NTCC members and ministers killing CATS and possibly other animals reflects a much deeper, trouble psyche. These Guys need to seriously go see a shrink.
From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh. In this case KILLETH. Now you know the hearts of these men. They are twisted, sick souls, wandering stars upon whom there is no rest for their souls. As NTCC minsters say, They need to GET RIGHHHHTTTT and GET SAVVVEDDD.
MLJ
If I bring folks out to NTCC and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity never faileth.
ReplyDeleteThat is what is wrong with NTCC. They are doing what I used to do: Going through the motions. They are expressing or displaying an OUTWARD form of Godliness (In the elite group, WORLDLINESS), but DENYING the power thereof and therein.
They are three clowns short of a circus. They are three meals short of a happy meal. The hampster wheel is spinning, but no hamster is there. The light is on at the house, but NOBODY is home. In some NTCC minsters cases, NOBODY has been home for a LONG TIME.
NTCC has it all: Religion, sex, and power, in no particular order. Their foundation is not of Christ. It is of Money. The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
MLJ
exNTCC'er Graveyard:
ReplyDeleteHere is what is written on my NTCC Tombstone:
Brother Michael L. Johnson
Born into NTCC 1994
Died out of NTCC 2004
He gave it all he had
Here is what will be written on my actual Tombstone:
Michael L. Johnson
Born Free 2004 - TBD
Let Freedom Ring!!!
MLJ
I remember when my former pastor and his wife had a small dog that they loved very much. Let me tell you when the boss man came around he told them to get rid of it. I felt so bad for them I remember the pastor's wife crying over giving up the dog. It makes my blood boil over some of the crap that went on. WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!!!!!!!!!! I remember many times when grown men were treated like children.
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteThe killing/ torment of cats is not only psychologically disturbing, but criminal behavior! Sick!
Think Jeffery Dahmer!
Ministers who do this probably still wet the bed or set fires!
I was actually told what I am about to write by an NTCC minister.
ReplyDeleteThe reason that RWD and many of his followers hate cats is because they see cats as satan. The reason given was because satan took on the form of a snake in the garden of Eden. Venomous snakes have pupils that are not round but they are vertical elliptical (cat-like) shaped pupils. So what I was told is that because the cat has the same shaped pupil as a venomous snake, that means that the cat is evil because the snake was evil in the garden of Eden.
Folks can say what they want but this is actually what I was taught by an NTCC minister, and he said it came from RWD. Also there have been too many other ministers who boasted of killing or trying to kill cats for my statement to be false. That my friend is a sick, twisted, CULTIC believe and practice. The military doesn't teach that and I'm sure that most other churches don't teach that and the Bible definitely doesn't teach that. That is a perfect example of the NTCC meeting the definition of a CULT.
Jeff
I remember this whole cat bussiness way back in the 80's, I left in 91. Very strange indeed it may have been in Fort Hood Texas I am not for sure.
ReplyDeleteI have two dogs that are begging to go outside again maybe a cat woud be easier. Great blog by the way Jeff I check it out as much as I can your buddy Bernie a fellow New yorker.
The dogs won't quit gotta go
Please forgive my misspellings in previous post not totally awake yet...lol
ReplyDeleteHow about the total disregard for traffic laws to get to Church service. I will never forget when I was in Germany under Phil Kinson. There was a huge backup of traffic most likely due to an accident on the autobahn. We were sitting there and He said I am not saying anything but... I knew he wanted me to haul down the breakdown lane so being the good "cultie" I blew the whole crowd of vehicles away with the "Weasel" which is what we called my toyota corolla station wagon. What a machine! Ran on three spark plugs, no exhaust and ultimately a cracked frame from being sideswiped by a crazy native driver.
Jeff, I always thought the cat hatred thing was weird...once Gesang was going on about how the Devil goes about as a roaring lion, and equated that to cats. I couldn't help wondering what we were supposed to think of the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
ReplyDelete"Could you please inform us if you do actually have a Bachelor's of Theology degree?
ReplyDeleteIf not could you please make us aware of how the staff were "given" there degrees? are they just made up? or are they "honorary"?"
I can answer that one for you myself, because I too have a shiny and worthless B.Th degree, conferred by NTCC. They used to do that, but apparently some government bureaucracy didn't think too highly of unaccredited diploma mill type institutions deceiving people into thinking they had something of value. But back in the day, they were awarded upon completion of the "curriculum" of the "college."
Bernie said...
ReplyDeleteI have two dogs that are begging to go outside again maybe a cat woud be easier. Great blog by the way Jeff I check it out as much as I can your buddy Bernie a fellow New yorker.
Jeff said...
Hey Bernie!!! Whats up? As soon as I saw the name Bernie I immediately thought it might be you and of course it didn't take much reading to know it was. I figured it out as soon as you mentioned Ft. Hood. Wow it's good to hear from you. Do you still take care of the historical house and do the guided tour thing?
Yeah the NTCC is pretty nutty about animals. When I was growing up in upstate New York, I had a good old cat named black. That dude had a whole lot more character and good nature than 80% of the NTCC pastors that I ever met. He used to follow me around like a dog and he liked hanging out with deer. No kidding. Back when I was a kid we used to go hunting and if I'd seen some NTCC kook taking pot shots at old black, I may have taken a few at them. You don't shoot at someones pet and try to run it over with your car or drown it in water. That's sick but that's the NTCC.
Good to hear from you Bernie. Call me if you get a chance at 404=405-7842.
Your old buddy,
Jeff
P.S. Your getting old; ha, ha.
Jeff: I think this blog reeks of too much testosterone :) so here I am going back to the cult thing.
ReplyDeleteSomebody stated that some of the practices that ntcc has are the same that other government agencies have and that is true but the practices that ntcc have go beyong the realm of being just rules because if you have a particular job and you don't like to be encapsulated in such regimented lifestyle, like the army, then you leave but ntcc goes beyond that and deals with your whole life and being. If you don't abide by their practices you are condemned to die without God forever and ever and this is quite psychological for someone to endure. You have a young mind that has never had any teachings about the bible and there he comes in contact with an ntcc'er and he thinks that they might be right so they get involved with ntcc because they don't know better then fear comes into place etc.,
So whoever made that point is not thinking right or is himself a cultist, how can you compare a job or agency to what ntcc is?
This is dealing with the spiritual, your soul, your life.
Good point Anonymous: I understand your point however what I did was post a number of dictionary definitions for the word "Cult".
ReplyDeleteThen I would show how the NTCCs practices corresponded with the dictionary definitions right on the money. Then what Concerned Minister was saying is that practices which exist among certain other professions and organizations also fit the definition of the word "Cult". Technically he was right without doubt. That is when I decided to highlight certain NTCC practices that you won't find taking place within these other organizations. NTCC practices such as the cat hating business and all the ridiculous rules that exist like having to stand against a wall to wait and ask permission to date someone of the opposite sex.
It is practices such as these that really highlight how the NTCC truly does qualify as a bad cult. All someone has to do is go to the thread right here on this blog, that talks about all the ridiculous rules that either currently exist or have previously existed in the NTCC. Kinson and Kekel are hard at work trying to do away with a good bit of that stuff. The problem is RWD always stated that he devised all those rules under the direct inspiration of God.
The other problem is that RWD and his pastors always preached and taught that we were all going to hell if we didn't forsake getting involved with all kinds of things that Kekel and Kinson say now are not even sinful.
Once again I see your point clearly but I am not certain that you had a clear understanding of exactly what Concerned Minister was responding to.
Jeff
"The problem is RWD always stated that he devised all those rules under the direct inspiration of God".
ReplyDeleteYea, brother. You hit the nail on the head. I am sure a lot of what Davis does is under the direct inspiration of God - NOT!!!
Like giving out medical advice when he is not qualified to.
Like living in a mansion worth millions while his minions live in poverty.
Allegations of adultry. I am sure that was under the direct inspiration of God. The gifts of God are sure and without repentance.
Davis has one gift: The gift of gab. He talks a good talk but he does not walk a good walk.
Jesus came to make the crooked places straight. Davis made straight places crooked again.
Jesus came to set men free from the bondage of sin. Davis shakles his followers in the bondage of sin and imprisions men and women mentally in their minds.
Jesus led captivity captive. Davis recaptured the captives and placed them back into captivity.
Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. Davis is lost, period, and seeks others to be lost whom Jesus already seeked.
Jesus is the Prince of peace. In NTCC there is no real peace. Davis is the Prince of thieves.
With Jesus, all answers come from the heart. With Davis, he has no heart and bombards you with retorical questions to your questions and does NOT give you straight answers.
As Davis once stated, Put THAT in you pipe and SMOKE IT.
Mr, Davis, been to NTCC, tried it, and was too POOR to BUY the T-SHIRT.
I'll pass the Pipe back to you and watch you smoke it. You cannot smoke a ROCK. The Rock Christ Jesus.
Anything less that Jesus would be - well - uncivilized.
Bro Johnson
Man, that was awesome!!
ReplyDeleteBro Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI found this info tucked inside the NTCC offical URL with regards for Pastors of NTCC submitting Soul Winning Reports:
"The old soul-winning report forms have been superceded and are no longer available. The new Church Soul-Winning Database file is available free to NTCC Pastors and workers, and generates the reports automatically. Email us for details!"
So, NTCC soul winning has moved into 21st century style. Now everytime I attend NTCC my name is entered into a DATABASE. This database appears to be available to all preachers in the Org.
Nowadays, you do not even need a CD, you get the info right over the internet.
So that means that I am BEING TRACKED by NTCC.
Creepy, isn't it??
Bro Johnson
If I am BEING TRACKED by NTCC, then NTCC Big Brother is watching me.
ReplyDeleteTracking me to see if I attend another NTCC church if I go on vacation or have to travel due to buisness requirements.
//BREAK//
Did you all realize there are many other NTCC churches that go by the same name, but are not THE NTCC as we know it?
Guess NTCC is a popular name. I would see that it would be easy for one to "hide" under the NTCC name, knowing that the local authorities would have to figure out WHICH NTCC you were referring to!!
MLJ
Bro J said...
ReplyDeleteSo that means that I am BEING TRACKED by NTCC.
Jeff said...
Actually that is kind of creepy. Just think about it for a moment. If you are an unsuspecting new invite; you would have no idea that your name, address, and phone number is being placed in a data base so THEY can TRACK you. When we left the NTCC my family visited another church. They handed out cards to the new folks and my wife filled it out and I took it from her.
I learned my lesson from the NTCC. I wasn't having someone blowing up my phone to say they missed me for service and then asking me when my family was planning on returning. It is unlikely that I will ever give out my name, address, or phone number to church folks again. I'll come back if I feel like it without being bugged and pestered.
Jeff
Jeff,
ReplyDeletePost NTCC, I never fill out the visitor card, or initially reveal any information about myself or my family, when I visit a Church. All because of NTCC and their marauding tactics.
pdq
I understand your point pdq because I feel the exact same way.
ReplyDeleteJeff
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteMy family visited a church recently, I gave them my info and they never responded in the mail.
Kind of the AntiNTCC; "just place your tithe in the box, we just don't care about you!!"
MLJ
The cat thing is really wierd, and imo is a throwback to the days when everyone thought cats were witches familiars. Haha... I have 2, I must be making all kinds of potions in my cauldrons and then making magic circles on my floor with candles and using my 2 cats to channel spirits! NOT. Sheesh. Cats are God's creatures, just like snakes are, and shouldn't be hated. Actually, there is a theory that if you hate all of one thing (kind of like hating all black people or all hispanic people) that it is actually because you don't understand it, and fear it, and people hate what they fear and don't understand.
ReplyDeleteSomething I've always thought is that Christianity is supposed to be simple. You read the Bible, you follow God's word, you listen to His leading in your heart, and know that if God wants you to do something, it's either in the Bible or he lays it on your heart. Since when did it get confusing? NTCC makes people confused, because here the Bible basically says that all things are revealed that are supposed to be, and then there's NTCC saying "Oh no, there's much more God wants from us than simply what's in the Bible. Here's our humungous list of rules."
JM
Oh and by the way, I've heard that whole comment from RW himself about "I'm not going to come over to your house if you have indoor pets." We never had a pet until I was in my late teens, but do you think RW ever came over? Noooooo.... why on earth would someone base a life decision on the million to one odds that a certain person MIGHT POSSIBLY come to your house?
ReplyDeletejm
JM: Exactly. When I was interested in getting a cat; which I did, I was glad that I didn't even consult the pastor that time. You couldn't please that guy anyway so what difference did it make?
ReplyDeleteAs time went on it became unimportant whether or not he came to my house because he made it clear that he wasn't planning on coming over as long as we had the cat. Typical RWD wana be.
Jeff
Hello
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to make a statement that I felt was necessary to make since I am a believer in Jesus Christ and a memeber of a NTCC. I live in Junction City, Ks and our church here is absolutely wonderful. I don't know if the NTCC that you are talking about is a specific church or if this blog that is going on is about the organization as a whole but I wanted to say in no way is our church a cult. We are completely Bible based and love the Lord. I am 25 years old, a mother of 2, a veteran and a college student. I am telling you this because I wanted to show you that I am a real human like everyone else. I cant speak for anyone else's NTCC but mine is great and I am so thankful that I was invited to join when my husband and I first arrived from our last duty station in Germany.I am honored to be a part of this church.
I used to feel the same way until I was clearly able to see the NTCC for what it really is. All you have to do is keep an open heart and mind and "sincerely" watch the shenanigans that go on in the NTCC. You said that you are a college student? Did you know that the NTCC doesn't advocate secular schooling because the NTCC leadership deems it to be a waist of time? Did you know that the NTCC teaches that it is a sin for women to work? If your pastor says the NTCC teaches otherwise and has taught otherwise he is a flat out liar and I know because I attended services with the NTCC for approximately 10 years. I had six different NTCC pastors and I've attended many NTCC conferences and they have all along taught that it is a sin for a woman to work on a job and therefor no need for her to attend college. They have taught that it is a waist of Gods time and Gods plan for you to attend a secular college and that you have better things to be doing for God.
ReplyDeleteAsk your pastor if you don't believe me? He will start tap dancing in an attempt to avoid answering your questions. If he is a sincere man he will admit that the NTCC teaches that it is biblically unlawful for a woman to have a job and hence there is no need for you to attend college. Once again, if he tells you that is not the NTCCs stance concerning women, or if he says it has never been, he is a flat out liar and I would gladly tell him that over the phone or if I ever had the chance tell him directly to his face. Of course that would probably never happen because I sure he wouldn't want to speak to me and I have no intention of going to Kansas.
My wife was also in the military and she was told directly that it was a sin for her to work on a job after she got out of the Army. The NTCC is a cult because they can't back up that doctrine with scripture. There are a variety of other NTCC teachings that can't be backed up with scripture. They will try and tell you that the Bible teaches that a woman needs to be a "keeper at home" Well if you look up "keeper at home" in the Strongs concordance it means to be a good house keeper or domestically inclined neither of which means that it is a "SIN" for a woman to work on a job.
I'm sure you no longer wear pants? The NTCC teaches that is also a sin for women to wear pants but certain NTCC women who are wives of NTCC pastors say it's ok to wear pants as long as you are exercising. Where does it say that in the Bible? Did you know that your pastor places a percentage money that comes into the church into an escrow account that he doesn't even have control of and when he leave Kansas the account gets zeroed out just for the incoming NTCC pastor to receive an escrow with a zero balance?
The NTCC teaches they do that to protect the NTCC against a possible renegade pastor that could take all the money but what protection does the local church in Kansas have against the leadership at the NTCC headquarters taking all the money and wrongfully using it? NONE!!!!
I know of 3 NTCC pastors that have testified that large accounts with sums of money were zeroed out and the money never restored to the church that the money came from. One NTCC pastor said almost $40,000 was zeroed, another said about $20,000 was zeroed and yet another said that about $10,000 was zeroed. These are just ones that I know of. I have names and locations and all 3 NTCC pastors who gave the same testimony. Do you think that was just coincidence? Were all three lying? I know two of them and I know they weren't lying and the other made the statement openly and in writing, and he wrote his name and gave specifics.
You need to learn more about the corporation / organization that you are a part of because they will take you for a ride that you will never forget and I don't mean a good one. If you have any questions feel free to call.
Sincerely,
Jeffrey Collins
404-405-7842
Founder and Moderator of this Blog.
The author of truestoriesoflifeinthentcc.blogspot.com has written an excellent article. You have made your point and there is not much to argue about. It is like the following universal truth that you can not argue with: The amount of work you put into a project is inversely proportional to how much your boss/professor/higher-than-you Thanks for the info.
ReplyDeleteTHIS BLOG HELPS PEOPLE AVOID CULTS--
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
The author of truestoriesoflifeinthentcc.blogspot.com has written an excellent article. You have made your point and there is not much to argue about. It is like the following universal truth that you can not argue with: The amount of work you put into a project is inversely proportional to how much your boss/professor/higher-than-you Thanks for the info.
January 24, 2010 10:17 PM--Anon
Ange says, Jeff, keep up the good work. Sounds like one more family has been spared wasted years in ntcc's trap!
Angela
P.S. You may have to expand your recent comments section to 30 or so since more people are reading and commenting! =D
I goto NTCC and I never see such hatred. I will make this short and simple. The soul-winning database, we do not carry one. we keep a log of it cause we want to revisit the people again. Could there be false pastors in the organization? Yes, but all I can say is that we believe in the whole bible KJV and w/o my lord I am nothing. it's biblical and not brain-washing. Holiness is the standard for all christians. Instead of gossiping and ranting, pray for churches to be right. Revenge is God's job.
ReplyDeleteI have attended NTCC for many years, And some thing people complain about may have been conveyed in a way that was over the top. But in 2010 many things have been clarified. And no cats are not evil That was one mans dislike turned into a doctrine. That is crazy. And it is not NTCC doctrine. Ministers visit family and travel at times. Not just conference time either. I have heard people and even preachers say things that were over the top and asked the NTCC leadership about this. And the answers I received were that the minister must have a misunderstanding as to what was what. And yes when Denis and his cohorts were around they made a allot of rules up themselves making it hard on there members. And then they'd blame NTCC saying thats what they are doing in Washington. They hurt and ran allot of folks off themselves. Is it possible that NTCC made a few mistakes along the way. Sure it is who hasn't. But I don't it was intended to harm. As we get older we mature in our thinking. And even realize mistakes and misunderstandings and try to correct what we can.
ReplyDeleteAnon said...
ReplyDeleteI have attended NTCC for many years, And some thing people complain about may have been conveyed in a way that was over the top. But in 2010 many things have been clarified. And no cats are not evil That was one mans dislike turned into a doctrine. That is crazy. And it is not NTCC doctrine. Ministers visit family and travel at times. Not just conference time either. I have heard people and even preachers say things that were over the top and asked the NTCC leadership about this. And the answers I received were that the minister must have a misunderstanding as to what was what. And yes when Denis and his cohorts were around they made a allot of rules up themselves making it hard on there members. And then they'd blame NTCC saying thats what they are doing in Washington. They hurt and ran allot of folks off themselves. Is it possible that NTCC made a few mistakes along the way. Sure it is who hasn't. But I don't it was intended to harm. As we get older we mature in our thinking. And even realize mistakes and misunderstandings and try to correct what we can.
Jeff said...
Not NTCC doctrine hey? I know of three NTCC ministers who would get joy over killing cats. One would drown them in wells, the other would laugh about brothers trying to run them over with cars and the other would shoot at them with guns. A forth would not even let his daughter over to my house because we had a cat. He said it was a spiritual matter and spiritually, my wife and I just didn't understand. RWD hated cats and turned the whole cat hating escapade into a doctrine. It may not have been written but it existed so buddy you don't quite have that one right.
Where in the world do you think Denis got all that stuff from? RWD!!! The most abusive, controlling NTCC pastor I ever had wasn't even a serviceman's home pastor so what he got didn't come from Denis.
You also wrote that it's "POSSIBLE" that the NTCC made a "FEW" mistakes? Are you kidding? They've made millions thorough mess ups and their double standards, abuse, inconsiderate ways, lack of COMMON decency have really messed up folks lives. You must have been living on a different NTCC planet then the rest of us either that or you haven't been their long. It's also quite likely that you are just as misled, confused and brainwashed as I used to be while I was in the NTCC. Those NTCC leaders are down right crooks.
Jeff
Guess gesang is exempt from the facebook psalm urgent message to delete all ungodly friends.
ReplyDeleteCheck out the friends he keeps on his reptile chatroom page.
pdq hi-lighted some of these names:
DragonAttack, KelcifersDragons, snakeman337, Ophiomancer, Kingsnakepyro, VAxMETALx, snakecharmer007, DarkSideReptiles, cursedj, Bloodrainchild, FreakinRican (forgive the cursing, as I am just a reporter), bkhorseman, Serpents, perfectpredators
Why would kekel make such a point of having members purge their facebook pages of eXntcc-ers but allow gesang to keep such company as pictured by their names above?
Another glaring double-standard, fork-tongued, hypocritical "policy" brought to you by the ntcc.
Really, kekel doesn't care who your friends are, as long as you stay in ntcc.
ReplyDeleteIf you have friends showing the hypocrisy in ntcc, kekel tells you to cut them off.
kekel just wants to keep you as a dutiful tithe-paying puppet.
How about this friend on Rev. Gesang's reptile chat room...
ReplyDeletecheckmuhballz
Here's the link:
http://www.reptilegeeks.com/checkmuhballz
Gregory
Not just cats. But dogs as well. I know one family in ntcc. They would NOT get a dog. Because,and I quote,:RW davis does not like dogs. So if we want him to BLESS us and come to our home. We can not get a dog!!
ReplyDeleteAnd those that got dogs. If Rw davis came to there home. they dogs were stuck in another room,hidden away. Or taken to a friends home for the day that rw davis was in town.
I am sure folks do the same for Mike K. But he does not travel to folks home's now does he!
He was quoted as well as rw davis. Why would I have you to my home. Have you had me to yours?
What kind of garbage that is. Make you feel like a heel. Because you have not had these men into your home. When you can BARELY scape up a decent meal for your own family. let alone,you know you had to step it up and have something special for the man of Gawd. Since they could not afford steak,or whatever it would be. Instead they choose not to have them over.
But those that jump through the hoops. To get the food,ect. To have Mike or rw to there home. Would become another brown noser. Not many had these folks over to there home,to be a "blessing". It was Kiss up time!
April
Here's some more samples of Rev. Gesang's friends:
ReplyDeletelizardman666
aSnakeLovinBabe
slithers666
pythongirl (provocative picture)
Iris (provocative picture)
bfafara (worldly picture)
xXxPython_ChicxXx (makeup, occult jewelry)
Creepy_Crumpet (provocative picture)
AmazonSmurfette (worldly picture)
BONUS: Many of the accounts of Rev. Gesang's friends contain pictures showing the unnatural affection between the reptile(s) and their respective owners.
Gregory
Creepy unnatural affection indeed! gesang always did have a thing for provocative photos, tattoos and such. I noticed he obsesses over his own lizard, Guido's, "unnatural affection" for his hand. Gross!
ReplyDeleteOnce again Anon wrote...
ReplyDelete"And no cats are not evil That was one mans dislike turned into a doctrine. That is crazy. And it is not NTCC doctrine."
Jeff said...
I wanted to continue with this subject. Anon said that it is not NTCC doctrine. Well I say; that depends on what you consider "doctrine". Here are real dictionary definitions for the word "doctrine".
1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Jeff said...
The practice of hating and KILLING cats was "taught and advocated" by the NTCC hence fitting the definition of the word "doctrine".
I can emphatically state that as fact while quantifying my stance.
One very respected and highly regarded NTCC pastor personally told me the he and other brothers would drown cats in a well of water. He laughed about this fact quite gleefully.
Another NTCC pastor who is still with the NTCC pastoring in Washington told me that he watched a brother drive his vehicle erratically in an attempt to run down, run over, and kill a cats who was "running" from the cars path. When the pastor told me this he also laughed with utter glee while showing an emotional display of much pleasure concerning the subject of "killing cats".
Yet another NTCC pastor refused to allow his daughter over to my house to play with my daughter, (who was about the same age and who incidentally had come to my house to play on previous occasions) because we got my daughter a pet kitty cat. This pastor said that my wife and I didn't spiritually understand the nature of cats and his daughter could no longer come to play with our daughter until we got rid of the cat.
The NTCC pastor who would drown cats in a well of water told me that cats were evil and RWD taught that the cat was essentially kin to the snake because they both had slit pupils in their eyes which made them essentially evil animals dating all the way back to Eve being beguiled by the serpent in the garden of eden. Now I'm not making this stuff up.
Additionally it has been reported that an NTCC minister walked out his back door and began shooting at a cat in his back yard with a real gun and I have no reason to doubt this claim due to my personal experiences with cat hating NTCC preachers.
Yet another NTCC pastor preached against animal lovers as a whole, for almost an entire service that I had the displeasure of sitting through. This guy absolutely went nuts on his tirade against animals and animal lovers. My wife and I never went back to his church which was the first NTCC church of two we visited in Atlanta Georgia.
So with all these different NTCC pastors sharing the same basic beliefs about cats I'm supposed to believe that it wasn't taught hence qualifying as a doctrine? You mean to tell me that I, Jeffrey Collins just circumstantially and by pure chance happened to come in contact with the only 3 or 4 cat hating NTCC pastors in the entire NTCC? You're kidding right?
NO, hating cats was common for pastors in the NTCC. That is the only logical explanation and the practice was CLEARLY TAUGHT.
The NTCC is FULL of a bunch of KOOKS who are being misled by someone even KOOKIER and Anonymous has been deceived into believing differently.
Jeff
Got to thinking today. Not good to look back to the years stuck in ntcc. Those years you were spending with your "real family" that was pushed on us ALL the time. Why go home,this is your family that loves you. Rather be with my brother and sisters in the Lord then my Blood family anyday(ntcc jargon)
ReplyDeleteWhat happens,we follow the expected reaction. We distance ourselve's from our family back home. The ones that are Worried about us,when we were in dire need. Who helped us,blood family. Guess who opens us back with open arms. That family that is Just a bunch of sinners(ntcc Jargon)
I remember rw davis telling us that those out in the world was more important to reach then our own family.
And if a person had a burden for a city. And it happened to be near there Blood family. No way was that man and his family going to be near family. They know that if they get around there family to much. That FOG would lift. And begin to see ntcc for there true colors! Can't have that.
I lost my grandfather while in ntcc. And already had tickets to fly home(which was something that RARELY happened) Tickets to fly! I asked Mike K. if I could leave early and then come to the conference. i would have missed two-three weeks of classes. I would have LOST that semester. That money that was spent,the money we barely had would have been lost. So what happened. I called and was made to WAIT all day. I did ger that ONE night off from class. I was not in the shape to be around FAKE SMILERS,FAKE CHRISTIANS. I missed the funeral,time to grieve with family.
And now I look back at those years I missed with elderly family members(13 years). And with my own parents and siblings. That time can not be brought back. Spending time knocking on door after door. That is more important then being with my parents,siblings,aunts and Uncles!!!
Why does ntcc even think they need to put down our blood family. Or try to esteem the ntcc so calloed family above your true family. This ntcc family is the same one that will RAT you out at any chance they get! That same family that will shun you after leaving ntcc,pass on the lie's that Mike starts!!Yeah,that is some kind of family that everyone wants to spend ALL there time with.
No way. Give me my blood family any day over the fake ntcc family anyday! A country song,you know who your friends are. You will find out who your true family is. When you really need help. Are you going to call Mike and look like the Bad "leader" or call your family back home?
Don't Push your family aside. They Love you,worry about you,and want to be there for you.
there NOT the devil. They are not putting down Your Church or Your pastor. They are telling the truth. They can see it for what ntcc is,a controlling church cult. My Mother said that to me back in CA. And I did not listen to her. Guess what,Mom was right. I am just thankful I called her up and said,Mom you were right. She was taken aback,that I admitted I was wrong(stubborn). IF I had listened to her all those years back. Saved me alot of heartache that I know deal with. But I can go on from here. Try and be there for others. And prevent many from walking into a ntcc store front,house,hotel rental room. And getting sucked up into there FAKE love trap!
April Formerly CM
WAMICHFAM@juno.com
I am putting that out for folks that need to talk. Are In our OUT of ntcc. If your still in and looking for a fight(arguement). Guess what You would get that if you come to me. I got my gumption back and my VOICE. All 100% Marine of me!
The services was awesome. The singing and dancing and the moving of the Spirit of God. The first night I was only armed with a handkerchief to wipe the sweat from my brow. Well, it wasn't long into the worship that night that that little handkerchief was rendered useless since by the end of service I was drenched in sweat from head to toe. So I bought me a hand towel the next day! LOL!!
ReplyDeletefrom a ntcc member.
remember those so called spirit filled service. The "dancing" Women swinging each other around,Wildly. Jumping up and down,bouncing! Men swinging each other,quite roughly. Or down front in what you could describe as the MOSH PITT. Alot of men jumping up and down!!!!A frenzie!
You know something is not right. When God gives you that tense knot in the stomach. I got that everytime the crowd was worked up into a frenzie.
I have since been to church service's. folks might raise a arm. Praise God. And it is not so chaotic. ntcc supposedly prides themself about having a orderly service. What they call dancing in the Lord. Is ANYTHING but orderly!!
This lady is correct. You do come out drenched in sweat. In dry clean cloths. That are pretty much ruined with sweat. Women go in with there BUNS,POOFS. And come out looking like they just got out of bed.
But this is what you pay hundreds of dollars that most ministers don't have. Then to pay for every single meal eating out,or a pop tart in there hotel room.
Save your money folks,seen one conference seen them ALL!
April
We have wonderful conferences, wonderful seminary school for those that want to dive in the deeper teachings of the word of God and launch out into the ministry. We all see the wisdom and godly systems of success in practice and the fruits of those systems in place. We all see the benefits of practicing the law of success from the "spear heads" (leaders) of this great organization. And as a member seeing those lessons and teaching unskillfully deployed ( for lack of experience, which all of us most gain) or just a blunt disregard ( because of ignorance, I guess?) to the teachings. ( maybe because, there is a more efficient system? {according to their mind} )
ReplyDeleteI guess then Rev. Devonshire is one of those inexperienced preachers. Did some very unwise things. keeping brothers up at all hours of the night into the wee hours of the AM!
Rev. Tieman has he went as an overseerer. telling a minister not to have church flowers. Then hearing from Tayna that flowers are Ok.
Sure other can give other examples. What would be considered seasoned ministers in ntcc. Doing some very questionable things. preaching about things they learned privately over the pulpit. Working folks until one lady Lost her baby in her womb!
Oh but this naieve gullable ntcc member things just new ministers that are sent out into the field. WITH NO INSTRUCTIONS. NO HELP. Just boot out the door you go. Call up and ask for guidance,your given NONE! and you wonder why so many ministers do different things. None are guided as they begin in the ministry. Flounder on there own.
you all should go on over to Tracy's blog. She is sharing some meaty,TRUE stuff on her blog. And go on over to Greg and Beb Shunks Blog.
ReplyDeleteAlong with Jeff's blog. Folks have more resouces out there. Then we EVER did. After leaving home. Getting invited out. Now folks can come on the internet. Check it out before Ever stepping foot in one of ntcc store fronts,services in there Home's,hotel rooms,community bldgs.
Get educated and not naieve and gullable like I was and many of us were!
Where are there schools located and what are there names?
ReplyDeleteANON,
ReplyDeleteEver heard of Washington State, like, Graham, like, I think you already know the answer to this question and are baiting someone.
Prove me wrong!!
ANON II
I got a call today from a guy who's daughter has gotten caught up with a cult similar to the NTCC. Rules such as no contact with family etc. Same old cult shenanigans. Anyway I think that this is the guy who is asking about NTCC schools.
ReplyDeleteHis YOUNG daughter wants to go off to some so called "bible school" and get married to this dude who hasn't had any for a long time I'm sure. He is trying to push the marriage thing fast (because he wants it bad) and the young ladies dad thinks things are moving too fast. The dad is right and his daughter doesn't know what she has gotten her self caught up in. Just another tragic story of cult antics NTCC style. Next thing you know the girl isn't going to want to have anything to do with her loving family because this cult will convince her they are the quote, "devil".
I can't stand the NTCC. The NTCC doesn't have love. It's all about control and money. The NTCC is a family wrecker. A lot of NTCC marriages go sour because it's all about a man and woman who have practically lost their minds over the need for sex. Plain and simple and that is why this man wants to marry this Dad's daughter so fast. He's got to get some before he looses his mind.
Jeff
Is NTCC a cult?
ReplyDeleteAbsolutley. It is a cult, a scam, a rip-off, a flim-flam, and any other word you can come up with it as well.
I was a 'faithful' member for about 3 years. Met a nice fella and married him. Thought I knew what NTCC was all about at that point and was ready to go to the "Bible School." AFTER I married him I come to find out a whole bunch of things that I wasn't "spiritually ready" to find out before. Riiigggghhhhhtttt. Needless to say I high-tailed it out of there as fast as humanly possible. It wasn't too long afterward my marriage also ended. I was tired of being screamed at, having things thrown at me, rebuked, and told I was going to hell by someone who happily lied... oops, omitted for my spiritual welfare...
Walking in the door at NTCC was the biggest mistake of my life. Walking out was the best decision I've ever made.