Thread #30
SFC Johnson: Please give me a call at 404-405-7842 when you get a chance. I am working on something that you could potentially play a huge role in. For all that don't know, SFC Johnson was involved with the NTCC for a long time and he and his wife experienced some serious abuse that was dished by NTCC pastors. He has posted on here extensively and he is quite passionate when writing about all the garbage that he and his family had to put up with. I can totally relate because I think he and I are in a race to see who can tell the greatest number NTCC horror stories. I don't think this blog could contain all of mine and his put together. I know; not literally.
SFC Johnson: We need someone to contract us to write a book about our unbelievable experiences while with the NTCC. It would probably become a #1 seller and we would become millionaires. I initially said this in joking but in the last one minute I realize that it's actually worth thinking about. Nevertheless that is not what I would like to talk to you about because what I would like to talk to you about is of much greater importance. Our Soldiers. I need your help hooah.
Jeff
Bro Jeff,
ReplyDeleteWould be glad to help anyway I can. I am pulling CQ duty right now and will be out of the net for about a week with some field duty.
I probably need to take a break from the internet (sinnernet) anyway!!
Should be back in the swing by middle of next week.
By the way I missed the Commadants List by 1.3%. I only had a 95% average. But I am happy - All superiors!!
God Bless,
Bro Johnson
Congrats Bro. I'm happy for you. I was so glad to finish ANCOC. Mine was three months long. Not a lot of fun. Give me a call when you get freed up.
ReplyDeleteJeff
Hi Jeff (and the many other posters!)
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure where to post this as I know this thread was specifcally for Brother Johnson.
First off - many thanks for this website. I initially found it through a google search and have been checking in regulary ever since.
My brother has been in the NTCC for close to 20 years.
I've watched as he's been shuffled around from St Louis to Grahmn to Texas and back to Missouri. Each time they sell off their belongings, load up their truck and move whereever they're told. Without question.
they're expecting their first child in September. This scares the crap out of me. He's chosen the NTCC lifestyle but an innocent kid being born into it is a whole other story.
I found out that his wife is on Medicaid and has been since theiy miscarried about a year ago. My first reaction was What the heck? How in the world can that be. Every church that I've been involved with has always been the one helping out. They want to see someone get out of poverty not keep them in it! But not NTCC!
A few years ago when I found out neither of them had health insurance, I asked my brother what they would do if they ever needed it. his response was that of "God will take care of us". Which? Uhm - what? Living on state funded aid is not that.
It's extremely frustrating to me to watch as my brother and sister in law live this lifestyle (complete with an 8 1/2 x 11 picture of Davis in the living room. CREEPY. the rest of the family members' pictures are lucky to make it on the fridge)
so my question to you and any one else that wants to answer is - when did you decide to get out of the cult/NTCC? Was it a long process of figuring it all out or did it hit you one day that something about this just isn't right?
Katie
k_colo at hotmail . com
Katie - I was in for 10 years. I got out in 2002. Mine was a series of events which culminated into the birth of my daughter Charity. When she was born, my involvement with NTCC died, and I am a better man because of it.
ReplyDeleteSearch the blogs. You will find the truth HERE.
The day that NTCC shuts down will be the day I call in sick from work and have the peace of mind in doing it.
Bro Johnson
My wife knew the moment she joined that there was something wrong. Then it and our marriage went all downhill from there.
ReplyDeleteMy wife even told me initally in the beginnings of our marriage that if I wanted her to leave me due to my involvement with the church, she would.
I told her not to leave (me). Smartest decision I EVER made!!!
It took me longer to realize the CULT that NTCC is. I wanted to believe that my wife was wrong and NTCC was right. She was the one that was messed up (so I thought). Turns out the opposite was true!!
We are going on 9 years marriage this month.
Praise the Lord!!
Bro Johnson
jeff, about that book.
ReplyDeleteyou can write it yourself and have it in book format as well as e-book format.
www.blurb.com
Katie, if I don't know your brother personally, it's likely I at least know who he is. We were in for about 16 years; it took that long for the facts to penetrate and dissolve the strong mind control practiced by NTCC. Don't give up hope for your brother, but understand that he is the victim of some of the most effective manipulators around. For me, it was a gradual process of recognizing the fact that there is a serious disconnect between the leadership of the org and the Jesus described in the bible. Over time, it became increasingly difficult to maintain denial in the face of their outrageous actions and attitudes. Some of the things they said and did were so blatantly unChristlike that there was no way to imagine Jesus behaving in such a way, and once the edifice started to crumble, utter collapse was only a matter of time. Since we departed, the fog has lifted, and the more we learn, the more we marvel at the boldness and sheer duplicity of these abusers.
ReplyDeleteBeing in NTCC is like living in a surreal world where the ordinary laws of behavior are upended, to be replaced by a false and pernicious system of human exploitation. You are right to be concerned.
Katie,
ReplyDeleteAlways remember that it is your constitutional RIGHT to ask questions to the church leadership.
If they fudge numbers or tapdance, chances are they are blowing smoke over folk's eyes.
With regards to the mockery of NTCC leadership, they are like a pack of wild dogs. All one would have to do is to throw a rock at them and they will scatter.
Tide really does take grease, dirt and filth out of the way. The Tide of Reality.
A hit dog always howls.
Bro Johnson
"complete with an 8 1/2 x 11 picture of Davis in the living room. CREEPY"
ReplyDeleteYou know, Katie, outside of a Cross and the pictures of my family and a circle magnet of OBAMA '08 that is all I have hanging in any direction on my house.
A sly way to approach the creepy pic on the wall would be to ask this: OK. You have a picture of Rev Davis on your wall. "Yes". Do you think that Rev Davis has a picture of you on HIS wall? "We'll, no"
So you care MORE about Rev Davis than Rev Davis cares about YOU!!!
Time to take the pic down, brother and sister in Christ!!
Bro Johnson
Interesting bro. do you think Obama has a picture of you in the white house?
ReplyDeletein reference to the often quoted statement about how God will take care of me (or you or us):
ReplyDeletewhile I believe that to be true, it does baffle me how the preachers who guilt the congregation into giving money for this, that or the other, forget that quote and fail to rely on it like the congregation is told to.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteInteresting Bro. Do you think Obama has a picture of you in the white house?
Jeff said...
I don't guess that Obama does. I also don't guess that Obama has ever suggested that he thinks in the same fashion that God does. People don't essentially worship Obama but there is a whole lot of folks that seem to feel that way about RWD. They follow a man who openly said in conference, and I quote; "If you have a problem with me you have a problem with God."
That is a pretty bold statement wouldn't you say?
It seems to me that RWD had placed himself on a similar plateau with God when he made that statement. Well I have all kinds of problems with RWD not the least of which was that statement that he made. Many people do idolize him. I spent enough time around the NTCC to figure that one out. I used to be guilty of it myself to one degree or another. I thought RWD was Gods man. HE IS NOT. He is a manipulative, abusive crook that uses people. That much I am sure of.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIn reference to the often quoted statement about how God will take care of me (or you or us):
While I believe that to be true, it does baffle me how the preachers who guilt the congregation into giving money for this, that or the other, forget that quote and fail to rely on it like the congregation is told to.
Jeff said...
Very good statement and SO TRUE! I like this Bro Johnson thread already and I didn't even have to put any thought into it. Ha, ha.
Jeff
Thank you so much for your replies. I asked my original question b/c I keep hoping that after 20 years my brother will realize the NTCC craziness and get out. It’s encouraging to hear that you were in it for awhile and still managed to escape. Congratulations to all of you for getting out! Sounds like it was quite a ride. And if you decide to write the book I’d definitely buy one.
ReplyDeleteIt’s a welcome thought to know that my suspicions/fears/worries are valid. Much of my family has taken the “just look the other way” approach. Or the “well he seems happy so why rock the boat.” I’m the odd one out who knows that what he’s involved in isn’t right.
Brother Johnson – You have an excellent wit about you and I loved many of your one liners. “a hit dog always howls” Congratulations on your 9 years of marriage! Vic – you probably know my brother. I was going to post his name here but email me at the address above and I’ll gladly share it with you.
I was telling a friend about my brother and the NTCC. And his response was that NTCC has a nice little gig going on. They “recruit” around military bases, so they’re taking kids that have been told what to do for the last 4 years and then sucker them into their church, where they’re continually told what to do, what they can’t do etc.
In the case of my brother he went from living at home (making few decisions of his own) to the Army, to NTCC. He’s never really made any (BIG) decisions for himself and he’s 39 years old.
He was even told who to marry. You read that correctly. Am I crazy? Let me explain. for much of the early-mid 90s, my brother was against the internet (it was evil, a fad, never going to last etc) then all of a sudden he had email. The next thing we know, he sends us all an email letting us know he’s going over to the Philippines next Tuesday. Then an email on Wednesday with a “hey family – thought I’d let you know I’m getting married to a nice girl on Friday” Tell me that isn’t fishy..
I know the church has a strong connection in the Philippines and he married a lady that had worked in the homes of (senior?) pastors. I remember little from that period (as I was in the process of going through a divorce) but I do remember him telling me that he was “introduced” to his wife by one of the pastors in Graham. Yeah like that’s all they were doing was introducing you to a lady who lives ½ way across the world so you two can be pen pals. I’m not dumb enough to believe that.
You guys are great and I'm extremely thankful for this site. Keep doing what you're doing!
Katie
Katie said...
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure where to post this as I know this thread was specifcally for Brother Johnson.
Jeff said...
All threads are for the use of everyone. I didn't know of a better way to get Bro Johnson's attention than post a message to him right on the front page. It worked.
Katie asked...
so my question to you and any one else that wants to answer is - when did you decide to get out of the cult/NTCC? Was it a long process of figuring it all out or did it hit you one day that something about this just isn't right?
Jeff replied...
I have actually left the NTCC twice. The first time was because of a pastor named Ramirez. He would rant and rave, and scream and holler and he went on his typical rampage during one service because according to him the church wasn't bringing in enough money. He was hollering for about 30-45 minutes straight one day. He also had a problem with me because I had talked to a sister on the telephone. We never even so much as held hands and she wasn't even stationed in the same German town that I was. He told me I couldn't call her any longer and he was a typical NTCC control freak. I don't claim to have been perfect but he was most definitely a STRAIGHT UP JERK and I have no reservations with stating that outright. I thought he was the exception rather than the standard so I decided to come back to the NTCC years later just to wind up with Stanley Mayers who is another control freak that likes to scream and holler.
To make a long story short I finally realized that these NTCC ministers learned their methods for RWD himself and I got sick of it. Every NTCC pastor that I ran into showed the same tendencies to one degree or another.
I respected pastor Hunt about as much as any of them and I was alarmed when I witnessed him go nuts on a brother right in the middle of service because the brothers fiancee had a "job" of all things.
Then when I saw pastor Oberhauser start to display the same type of conduct I had enough, and I left for good. And now having done plenty of research, I'm positive beyond any reasonable doubt, that the NTCC is an abusive, manipulative, destructive CULT that does more damage than good by far.
I also recognized that the NTCC shows favoritism toward Mike and Tanya Kekel and the NTCC leaders regularly incorporate nepotism with their pastoral placements. Mike and Tanya Kekel have been afforded a free pass to freely disregard the NTCC rules unlike any other ministers before or after them. Every minister in the entire NTCC knows good and well that the Kekels have been held to a totally different standard than all the rest of the people in the NTCC, and if they say they haven't noticed, they are liars!
The double standards are disgusting and I saw enough, and that is why I left for good. Unfortunately it took me quite a long time to admit to MYSELF that I was involved with a abusive, manipulative, cult, and that it was time for me to leave and simply write off all the years that I had spent with the NTCC. That is not always easy to do; I can assure you.
Jeff
Katie,
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to let you know that RWD and his wife are the ones who do the match making over in the Philippines. Mrs. Davis asks the ladies for pictures and then takes them back to show the single men to see if they're interested. Then a courtship begins by airmail or phone, and if there's a conference the single man will travel there for the Asian Conference where he can meet his intended. The man graduates Bible School and marries a Filipino woman, now he has to bring her to the U.S so she can go to Bible school. Can you imagine the cost involved in getting her papers. Plus now he has to send her to school again even though she attended the school in the Philippines. Tanya the daughter also does the match making too.
Katie, if that is your name, get your facts straight before reporting.
ReplyDeleteHey anonymous-
ReplyDeleteGet your facts straight! it might help if you stopped brown nosing davis and kekel
Katie, i have a brother in the org and everything you said is right on- he even has the idolatrous picture of Davis on his wall, might i add, framed in a nice expensive frame.
dont listen to these cowardly hit and run posters, they are just lame defenders, you are right on! i appreciate your discernment and ability to see through the clouds of "religion"
i actually read your post to my brother yesterday and mocked his "picture" of davis on the wall
you have to wonder....does Davis sell those pictures or sign them and give them away??
hmm
sincerely,
t
Interesting bro. do you think Obama has a picture of you in the white house?
ReplyDeleteI would rather hope not. I would not want him to get jealous.
He would need to go ahead a place a picture of my son in the White House. Since he is going to be president someday.
Smile!!
MLJ
Bro J said...
ReplyDeleteHe would need to go ahead a place a picture of my son in the White House. Since he is going to be president someday.
Jeff said...
That is what I'm talking about. Hopefully I can be his national cult recognition adviser. Ha, ha.
Jeff
To the Anonymous poster that addressed Katie:
ReplyDeleteI am interested in finding out exactly what facts weren't straight? I also read Katie's posts and obviously I don't have any personal knowledge of her specific situation but I do have good knowledge of NTCCs practices.
What she wrote is text book NTCC all the way.
1. Pastors other than Kekel, being shuffled all around the nation or world? Text book NTCC!
2. Moving ministers selling of giving away belongings because they have to move unlike Kekel? Text book NTCC!
3. Innocent children being brought into a bunch of restrictive garbage rules that apply to everyone except the Kekels son or ministers who have children and ignore the rules? Text book NTCC!
4. NTCC ministers living below the poverty level and consequently needing Medicaid? Text book NTCC!
5. The NTCC not helping out their ministers nearly as much as they could and always telling their pastors who need money to quote "go to the people." Text book NTCC!
6. Ministers without health insurance?
I'm getting tired or going back and forth however; Text book NTCC? I guess I will keep going.
7. RWDs idolatrous picture on walls and tables all over the nation? Text book NTCC! I have no idea how that started. If I was Davis I would tell everyone to take that stuff down but he is a communist dictator so I understand.
8. NTCC leaders making strong innuendos concerning who folks should marry and if the interested parties don't take their advise they never hear the end of it? I listened to RWD himself talk about that in conference so I don't even want to hear that what I am saying is not right. TEXT BOOK NTCC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So Anonymous: Which part of Katie's messages were inaccurate? I just went over her messages with a fine tooth comb and I've yet to find any falsehoods; certainly not in her accurate representation of how the NTCC operates. With that being said; once again; I have no personal knowledge of Katie’s family but she is point on about the NTCC.
I am going to be good and conceited here briefly, but I really like myself sometimes. Someone has to. Checkmate. Do you play chess Anonymous? I even posted my picture this time so I can see how it feels to be like RWD. Not really but it sounded good.
Jeff
"7. RWDs idolatrous picture on walls and tables all over the nation? Text book NTCC! I have no idea how that started. If I was Davis I would tell everyone to take that stuff down but he is a communist dictator so I understand."
ReplyDeleteIt started when one Christmas he handed out 8X10 glossies of himself and his wife (can anyone say narcissist?). Shortly after, they started popping up in peoples' homes. I actually still have mine, although I never put it on display. I guess the brainwashing never took complete hold.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI can answer you point for point, though you won't accept it.
1. Pastors other than Kekel, being shuffled all around the nation or world? Text book NTCC!
Some move more often than others. There are some who stay in one place the entire time they are in the ministry: Rev. Barnes, Rev. Espinosa. Some stay in one place for quite some time, you are familiar with some who have been your pastor at one point. There are specific reasons why some move more than others and neither you nor I know what those reasons are, nor should we know. There is something to be said about making statements based on too little information: Look at Obama and how he is shifting his position on some of his campaign promises.
2. Moving ministers selling of giving away belongings because they have to move unlike Kekel? Text book NTCC!
Selling/giving away belongings when you move is your choice. People in the secular world being transfered on jobs make these kinds of decisions all the time.
3. Innocent children being brought into a bunch of restrictive garbage rules that apply to everyone except the Kekels son or ministers who have children and ignore the rules? Text book NTCC!
The old line about imaginary rules which apply only to certain individuals. Give this one up because you will never be able to prove it.
4. NTCC ministers living below the poverty level and consequently needing Medicaid? Text book NTCC!
Again, their choice. People live below the poverty level all the time in America. Why is this? Not because NTCC is restricting them. People choose their lifestyles. At some point, people have to stop blaming everyone else around them and take responsibility for their own choices.
5. The NTCC not helping out their ministers nearly as much as they could and always telling their pastors who need money to quote "go to the people." Text book NTCC!
OK, this one is just classic bunk, pure nonsense, unadulterated ignorance, on and on... What is nearly as much as they could? C'mon Jeff, always telling their pastors? Who are you quoting? Do you know first hand that this is an accurate quote? "Go to the people," goes against everything Pastor Davis teaches. We are taught to do what God wants us to do: soul winning, pray, read our Bibles, and God will bless us. Never, "go to the people." You're not convincing me of that one Jeff.
6. Ministers without health insurance?
I'm getting tired or going back and forth however; Text book NTCC? I guess I will keep going.
Never have I heard it taught that anyone should not have health insurance. People in NTCC don't get health insurance for the same reason anyone in America doesn't get health insurance: Because, as Dave Ramsey would say, "they're stupid!"
7. RWDs idolatrous picture on walls and tables all over the nation? Text book NTCC! I have no idea how that started. If I was Davis I would tell everyone to take that stuff down but he is a communist dictator so I understand.
Hmm, idolatrous picture, how about, people just love their pastor? Nobody worships his picture. The only people who have a problem with this is the people who don't want to see it. To whom I say, get a life!
8. NTCC leaders making strong innuendos concerning who folks should marry and if the interested parties don't take their advise they never hear the end of it? I listened to RWD himself talk about that in conference so I don't even want to hear that what I am saying is not right. TEXT BOOK NTCC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't want to hear that what you are saying is not right? Sometimes we need to hear what we don't want to hear. This is the point I was referring to when I said Katie needed to get her facts straight. You said yourself: "I am interested in finding out exactly what facts weren't straight?"
The whole thing about the Philippines sounds kind of fishy. Did someone get their feelings hurt? We don't know, because these are all bogus claims. Again, just enough detail to make an accusation, but not enough to convince anyone except those who want to be convinced.
t,
ReplyDeleteI didn't pay for mine... hmmm, another attempted drummed up allegation, busted!
chief: I know what you are saying is true and in the long run many will come to that realization but as of yet the people that can't make their own decisions won't come here and read because they've been scared silly by the upper men that tell them that they are partaking in "gossip" I was told that in this past conference rwd told the audience that it is nobody's business what goes on in the kekel's family, he said that he doesn't get involved in their family and what they do is what they do and If they wanted to put their child in football it was their business and so on and so forth, and alluded to the fact that he helps pay the tuition for his son, which I really don't care if he does or not but it just ludicrous to say that he doesn't get involved in the lives of families because he does ,directly and indirectly, through his pastors and preachers he has ruined many families and sons and daughters. I guess all this is just "hearsay"
ReplyDeleteANON,
ReplyDeleteYou stated:
"At some point, people have to stop blaming everyone else around them and take responsibility for their own choices".
Exactly! That is why I left NTCC.
I realized that I could not blame the pastor for running and ruining my life. I put matters into my own hands, and I QUIT being played the fool.
I QUIT being NAIVE. I QUIT not bringing my Bible to Church. I QUIT allowing the Pastor's wife to play matchmaker and married who I wanted to marry.
I QUIT taking the preacher's word for it and looked it up for myself. I QUIT being played the fool, taking out the preacher's trash, sponsoring the preacher on post, getting yelled at because of the preacher.
I QUIT denying myself the opportunity to watch some quality family movies with my kids. I QUIT denying the RIGHT to own a computer and purchased a laptop without the preacher's approval.
I QUIT. I QUIT serving God the way others wanted me to serve Him and served Him how I know in my heart He wants me to.
This was the only time I QUIT something and came out ahead and a better man because of it.
Bro Johnson
to "anonymous" -
ReplyDeletethe more i think about the idea of putting Davis picture on the wall of my home the more it compels me to realize THIS IS A CULT!!!
one of my children had a tutor who was a mormon and they had a statue of Joseph Smith on there mantel. my aunt is a catholic and has a picture of the pope on her wall.
normal christians don't have a picture of there pastor on there wall!!
I love my Pastor and also am an elder in my church of 1500 and all my closest friends are either elders or pastor's but not one of them has a picture of the pastor on his wall!!
normal christian's put Jesus above everybody and worship and serve him!!!
cult members worship and serve a man.....
i am sure its a little bit disappointing to realize after all this time that Davis is at best a common man and at worst....well, we wont go there
one of the characteristics of the unregenerate pagans is to "worship and serve the creature rather than the creator" as a result of that idolatry is a slow decension into gross immorality
ntcc people take a look around you and realize the reason that there is so much gossip, slander, vying for position, phariseeism, envy...etc.....etc...is because the worship is not focused on Jesus, its focused on a mere man
and its making that man rich....
open your eyes and see, ask god to reveal the truth to you...be sincere and he will show you openly
have the faith to step out and test him again, dont stay because its "all i have"
sincerely,
t
ANON,
ReplyDeletePDQ can answer you point for point, if he so desires to, being a previous minister in the Organization, along with others.
I know for a fact that a certain minister told me that he did not have health insurance.
Think about it. It is bad enough your in poverty. At least of you die your loved one would have some money to go on. I have 3 Life insurance policies. It is every man for himself at NTCC. There is no love there. They don't love you. They love you only until you STOP GIVING.
If I die, my wife is almost a multi millionaire, as Jeff can attest to the nature of my job.
My job as a Husband and a Father is to take care of ALL needs of my family on this earth, or off it.
My job is to set my family up for success and to set high goals for my kids to achieve.
Do you know what my oldest son wants to be when he grows up? President.
Do you know what my daughter wants to be when she grows up? A singer and a doctor.
Do you know what my youngest son wants to be when he grows up? An Astronaut. Not just any space traveler, but among the first on the U.S. manned expedition to Mars.
It is in their minds everyday. When we pray, that is what they pray for.
My wife just told me she wants to be a heart surgeon.
Funny how my son had know interest to be a preacher. Maybe being in NTCC had something to do with it.
Bro Johnson
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about my experiences with NTCC.
One thing did stick out in my mind.
There is one good thing going on inside NTCC.
The brothers in the Servicemen's home for the most part share a close bond, they develop friendships which outlast NTCC. That is it.
I cannot say the same thing about the ministers. There is always competition to be the BEST. That is good to a point, and one would have to prove their ministry.
For some of these jokers, I mean, preachers, it is not a ministry. It is a MINISERIES.
I often wonder what is the first thing Kekel does when he wakes up in the morning. I think he thinks about Dollar signs.
MLJ
Anonymous May 15, 2009 9:21 AM said... "Katie, if that is your name, get your facts straight before reporting."
ReplyDeleteI know Katie's brother quite well, and she does have her facts straight. I can be a second witness to all she has said thus far.
Vic does know him also, though I assume not as well as I do.
Nice try though Anonymous May 15, 2009 9:21 AM.
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
nice try pdq... perhaps you were tdq.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't talking about the post where she spoke of her brother. Maybe if you take a little bit longer between the time you read something and the time your knee jerks, you will understand her facts aren't exactly straight on many things. She doesn't even know all the facts about her brother.
t,
ReplyDeleteNobody is worshipping Pastor Davis. You speak of gossip, yet you are one of the major proponents of it on this blog. Don't try to weasel out of it here, I caught you!
"you have to wonder....does Davis sell those pictures or sign them and give them away??"
This is an attempt to fabricate an allegation. As an "elder" in your church, why don't you own up to your sin and stop trying to fabricate sin in the lives of others?
pastor davis is worshipped when:
ReplyDelete1. people take what he says to do or not do as gospel. they do not question it since he is gods man.
2. if you counter davis, you are not right with god.
3. read statements 1 and 2
from anon7000
also
a former minister in ntcc
also, it isn't that kekels son plays football or they watch dvds.
it is the hypocrisy.
those things and more would cause one to lose their ministers license as well as would condemn one to hell as well as would not be considered a good example.
so kekel can do all these things freely and all of the sudden what once was is said to never have been ?
maybe you can fool the newbies but us that have been in the ntcc know this is absolute pure hypocrisy on the part of davis and kekel.
Anonymous lovingly said..."nice try pdq... perhaps you were tdq. I wasn't talking about the post where she spoke of her brother. Maybe if you take a little bit longer between the time you read something and the time your knee jerks, you will understand her facts aren't exactly straight on many things. She doesn't even know all the facts about her brother."
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, since you neglected to clarify, and your 'comment' came after Katie's which talked about her brother and the Philippines, this is what I commented on.
No need to apologize, no offense taken.
But, since you brought it up, I would like to add, regarding her other post:
I had read her other post by the time I made my comment to you and…
• Ministers are shuffled around…
• NTCC is a harmful environment for children. One reason is NTCC’s long standing ‘policy’ that its ministers neglect every other consideration in favor of NTCC and the Ministry…
• Some Ministers, and members of their family, have been (and are) on some type of public assistance…
• We were all told not to get health or life insurance, by Pastor Davis at conferences, and in Bible College…
• We were not discouraged from displaying Pastor Davis picture ‘only.’ I say ‘only’ because we are not allowed to have pictures of our family publicly displayed in the parsonage as this is not our house, this is what has been taught at conferences, and Bible College…
Again, no need to apologize Anonymous…what’s a tiny misunderstanding among friends?
Yours In Him,
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
Didn't they sell those pictures at a conferance once? Seems like I remember that, but it was so long ago, and shoved in with everything else that was going totally chaotic in my life at the time due to NTCC's constant need to move my parent's around (were we EVERY anywhere for more than 4 years? Let me think - by the time I was 18 I had lived in 5 states, one of those states being Washington, where I lived twice between the time my parents went to bible school and the time I turned 18. So yeah, an average of about 4 years per place sounds about right.) Anyway, the bible talks about not worshiping images, and I have heard it said on more than one occasion that the catholics essentially worship Mary as well as others they consider to be "saints" because they have little tiny images displayed in their homes, regardless of whether or not the statues are prayed to. So, doesn't it seem odd, that a massive amount of people in the NTCC are encouraged to have the "all mighty" pastor's picture up in their homes? Seems to be along the same lines as the catholics to me.
ReplyDeleteJM
Jeff said to Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI can ALSO answer you point for point, though you won't accept it.
1. Pastors other than Kekel, being shuffled all around the nation or world? Text book NTCC!
Some move more often than others. There are some who stay in one place the entire time they are in the ministry: Rev. Barnes, Rev. Espinosa. Some stay in one place for quite some time, you are familiar with some who have been your pastor at one point. There are specific reasons why some move more than others and neither you nor I know what those reasons are, nor should we know. There is something to be said about making statements based on too little information: Look at Obama and how he is shifting his position on some of his campaign promises.
Jeff's reply:
Did I say "ALL pastors? I didn't think so. There is also something to be said for someone who can THOROUGHLY read someone else's statement. You thoroughly know good and well that pastors like Taylor who also left the NTCC had been shuffled around for years and not all of them wanted to be. You are right; I am familiar with one who was the pastor of a church that I attended. Mayers the abuser. He said openly in church in front of us that he WOULDN'T go back to Graham. So much for him speaking so highly of life around your bible school. Anyway every single solitary additional pastor that I have ever had moved all over the place. Taylor, Ramirez, Madrano, Hunt, and Oberhauser is back up at Graham and I know of entirely too many others. Barnes would move also if he wasn't so good at bleeding those poor black folks of every dime he can get, so he can place his 40% in escrow for the Grahamits. As long as you can make money for Graham the leadership will let you stay put. Some folks they just don't want to bother with because they will cause too much trouble and Mayers is one. I talked to Mike Kekel on the phone about two months ago and he told me that Mayers is messed up and they have known that for a while and Kekel admitted that to me, so how do you like that for facts. You better get your facts straight.
2. Moving ministers selling of giving away belongings because they have to move unlike Kekel? Text book NTCC!
Selling/giving away belongings when you move is your choice. People in the secular world being transfered on jobs make these kinds of decisions all the time.
Jeff's reply:
Yeah but they are not ordered to move when they really don't want to like so many NTCC minister that I've talked to. Also they are moved because they have a job to fill. Not move to a place where they have no idea what job they may even find. And they certainly aren't ordered to move back to Graham Washington or face being blacklisted and talked about which is going to happen anyway when they get back to Graham. Wake up slick!
3. Innocent children being brought into a bunch of restrictive garbage rules that apply to everyone except the Kekels son or ministers who have children and ignore the rules? Text book NTCC!
The old line about imaginary rules which apply only to certain individuals. Give this one up because you will never be able to prove it.
Jeff's reply:
I have proved it time and time again right here on this blog and you know it. All you have to do is first read and then be real with yourself. Your being fake. Kekel's son has had a free ride all along and you know it, so stop being a deceptive hypocrite. No organized sports and tight pants and shorts and watching television for all of us but not Grant Kekel because he has been able to do that stuff all along and you know it.
4. NTCC ministers living below the poverty level and consequently needing Medicaid? Text book NTCC!
Again, their choice. People live below the poverty level all the time in America. Why is this? Not because NTCC is restricting them. People choose their lifestyles. At some point, people have to stop blaming everyone else around them and take responsibility for their own choices.
Jeff's reply:
That is why I left the NTCC. Because the NTCC says spend five days a week in church and no overtime and by the way if your employer doesn't like it then quit. RWD bragged about a brother in conference that quit a job so that he could attend conference. What in the world kind of reason is that for quitting a job. The NTCC promotes that kind of irresponsibility and that is why so many NTCC folks are broke and if they did quit their job and they missed conference they got blacklisted so stop being fake again because you know this stuff.
5. The NTCC not helping out their ministers nearly as much as they could and always telling their pastors who need money to quote "go to the people." Text book NTCC!
OK, this one is just classic bunk, pure nonsense, unadulterated ignorance, on and on... What is nearly as much as they could? C'mon Jeff, always telling their pastors? Who are you quoting? Do you know first hand that this is an accurate quote? "Go to the people," goes against everything Pastor Davis teaches. We are taught to do what God wants us to do: soul winning, pray, read our Bibles, and God will bless us. Never, "go to the people." You're not convincing me of that one Jeff.
Jeff's reply:
That is a fact and that is why the NTCC takes up so many special offerings for everything from church signs to insulation for roofs and a poor private and poor church member ignorantly gives their little chump change while Kekel turns his house into a museum and sends his kid through a $20,000 a year private school. Give me a break because you are one totally confused and deceived individual. They don't have enough money for conference and what are they told; go to the people. Man what are you talking about; RWD said that openly in conference and I heard him teach on it with my own ears. He told the pastors that some of them were afraid to ask there church members for MORE MONEY. You better get your facts straight and wake up.
6. Ministers without health insurance?
I'm getting tired or going back and forth however; Text book NTCC? I guess I will keep going.
Never have I heard it taught that anyone should not have health insurance. People in NTCC don't get health insurance for the same reason anyone in America doesn't get health insurance: Because, as Dave Ramsey would say, "they're stupid!"
Jeff's reply:
You are stupid because the NTCC drives them into that predicament and it is just that simple. How are you going to afford health insurance when you are struggling just to have enough money for church building rent and your house or apartment rent or mortgage because the NTCC teaches that you are a failure when you don't successfully build THEIR church? You can say what you want but in the NTCC this exists, stupid. Not only that you are blind and brainwashed.
7. RWDs idolatrous picture on walls and tables all over the nation? Text book NTCC! I have no idea how that started. If I was Davis I would tell everyone to take that stuff down but he is a communist dictator so I understand.
Hmm, idolatrous picture, how about, people just love their pastor? Nobody worships his picture. The only people who have a problem with this is the people who don't want to see it. To whom I say, get a life!
Jeff's reply:
Yeah, if they just love their pastor why is RWD the one who started giving his picture out to everyone but I guess you didn't know that part. If everyone loves him so much why did he loose a huge number of his ministers during the split? And why do so many continue to leave and post right here on this blog? If that is love I don't want it. Checkmate again.
8. NTCC leaders making strong innuendos concerning who folks should marry and if the interested parties don't take their advise they never hear the end of it? I listened to RWD himself talk about that in conference so I don't even want to hear that what I am saying is not right. TEXT BOOK NTCC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't want to hear that what you are saying is not right? Sometimes we need to hear what we don't want to hear. This is the point I was referring to when I said Katie needed to get her facts straight. You said yourself: "I am interested in finding out exactly what facts weren't straight?"
The whole thing about the Philippines sounds kind of fishy. Did someone get their feelings hurt? We don't know, because these are all bogus claims. Again, just enough detail to make an accusation, but not enough to convince anyone except those who want to be convinced.
Jeff's reply:
Just enough "facts" to convince an "INTELLIGENT" person that they are a part of a cult that you don't seem to possess enough logic recognize because you want to believe a LIE. You will figure it out one day or you are just another NTCC crook like RWD, Olson, and Kekel.
anonymous,
ReplyDeleteyou consider that gossip?
mockery maybe..
a question maybe..
outrage maybe..
gossip...NOPE
apparently you have been brain washed by your cult to think that gossip is questioning your leadership
to think that your foolish ntcc assault gospel tactics are going to work on me is not only immature but i would say a last gasp at turning people's thoughts and minds away from the truth that is being brought out on this blog
btw- you sound an awful lot like Kekel, and please dont take that as a compliment...its not!!!
t
ReplyDeleteJeff...
ReplyDelete1. Did I say you said ALL pastors? Baseless claim against Rev. Barnes. Besides, escrow is an account for that particular work, not to be shared among the others. Don't even try to argue with me on that one, you don't have enough REAL evidence for it.
2. There are companies that tell you to move, depending on your position in the company, or else, you lose your job. That's pretty much like being ordered to move. How about the military? You better move when they tell you. Oh, and you contradicted point one, I'll let you figure it out, you think you're so thorough.
3. I have yet to see or hear a legitimate proof of any such rule existing. How did you prove it? More false allegations.
4. You are being slightly disingenuous Jeff. I have worked plenty of overtime. The reason for quitting a job to go to conference is that the employer selfishly doesn't want to let you go for that week. Also, where is your trust? Is it in your job or your God? Now, why would you quit your job and miss conference? that's poor planning.
5. Jeff, I think you are confused... No wait, I know you have been confused for a long time now. This statement just goes along with you character to get the teaching all mixed up and jump to conclusions on what is being taught. The lesson Pastor was trying to convey is that some preachers are afraid to teach tithe and offering correctly. That's all. It is never, and was never taught to go to the people and ask for more money.
6. All I have to say is: how can you afford NOT to have health insurance!
7. Better look again Jeff, you never had checkmate. My wife had to ask for a picture. She asked for one because she wanted it. Women are like that, they like to have pictures of people they care about. Don't ask me why, I'm a guy. King me!
8. I don't know Jeff, my Bible tells me that a fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.
Anon said...
ReplyDeletealso, it isn't that kekels son plays football or they watch dvds.
it is the hypocrisy.
those things and more would cause one to lose their ministers license as well as would condemn one to hell as well as would not be considered a good example.
maybe you can fool the newbies but us that have been in the ntcc know this is absolute pure hypocrisy on the part of davis and kekel.
Maybe your story would be more believable if you had some facts to back it up. You can fool some of these newbies, but you can't fool me.
pdq said...
ReplyDelete"We were all told not to get health or life insurance, by Pastor Davis at conferences, and in Bible College…"
That is a straight up lie, and you know it! More outrageous lies from exntccers to follow!
"we are not allowed to have pictures of our family publicly displayed in the parsonage as this is not our house, this is what has been taught at conferences, and Bible College…"
As promised...
Excuse me JM, I have to go pray the rosary to the picture of Pastor Davis...
ReplyDeleteOK elder t, continue to make statements that are pure assumption and try to pass them off as truth. If you don't see anything wrong with that, there is something wrong with you.
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteContinue being H.U.A. and we will continue posting the facts!
Sir Anon-Anon of Anon
Anonymous: How can you say that pdq lied? We were told to not even pay our rent or light bills if it got in the way of NTCCs program. So you mean to tell me that if we were supposed to quit jobs, not pay rent, and not pay light bills that HEALTH INSURANCE should have gone to the top of the list. Man you are an idiot.
ReplyDeleteHealth Insurance was at the bottom of NTCCs priority list to say the least. RWD taught to not even contribute to social security and whether you like it or not there are millions of elderly that draw social security as we speak and it has proven to be some of the best insurance that some of them will ever have. RWD also suggested paying tithe on TAX RETURNS. If they paid tithe on their gross income they already paid tithe on their taxes so RWD is a manipulative deceptive crook and you are following him.
Are you ever going to be sincere or are you going to continue to throw around baseless false allegations. Just because you didn't hear it taught doesn't mean we didn't. You have overlooked half the stuff that I have written and I am supposed to believe that you were able to comprehend the NTCC rules and teachings? You are brainwashed just like I used to be and all the rest that write on this blog. The only difference between you and the rest of us is that we DECIDED to open our eyes one day to the NTCC's garbage and you are still blind.
Jeff.
Jeff's responses to Anonymous's foolishness.
ReplyDelete1. Did I say you said ALL pastors? Baseless claim against Rev. Barnes. Besides, escrow is an account for that particular work, not to be shared among the others. Don't even try to argue with me on that one, you don't have enough REAL evidence for it.
Jeff's reply:
Than why did you even feel the need to tell me that quote "some stay in the same place." I guess you thought more highly of yourself than you should have, by ASSUMING that others didn't understand that some stay in the same place or you just like wasting words. Barnes escrow account would wind up in Graham just like it did from three other places that I know of for a fact if Barnes ever left Jackson. I do have real evidence because the people that told me of such practices are more trustworthy than RWD, Kekel, and Olson all put together and certainly more trustworthy than you because you deceive your own self. You don't realize it but you can't even trust yourself because you are brainwashed by the NTCC and quite confused.
2. There are companies that tell you to move, depending on your position in the company, or else, you lose your job. That's pretty much like being ordered to move. How about the military? You better move when they tell you. Oh, and you contradicted point one, I'll let you figure it out, you think you're so thorough.
Jeff's reply:
There you go again not reading what I write. Both places that you just mentioned have a job waiting for you when you arrive. The military and the fictitious companies that you mentioned relocated you FOR A JOB not to leave one. It's just like counting 1,2,3. Read what I wrote, think about it, and then respond with meaningful words other than the ones that you just wasted because you haven't quite learned how to comprehend what you read. All you have to do is follow me and you will get there.
3. I have yet to see or hear a legitimate proof of any such rule existing. How did you prove it? More false allegations.
Jeff's reply:
I don't have to prove anything to someone who is blind to start with. If you can't see it you are blind and ignorant and you obviously haven't spent too much time around NTCC preachers or you can no more comprehend the foolish rules that they have mandated for years any more than you can comprehend what I write. You've done a pretty poor job at that.
4. You are being slightly disingenuous Jeff. I have worked plenty of overtime. The reason for quitting a job to go to conference is that the employer selfishly doesn't want to let you go for that week. Also, where is your trust? Is it in your job or your God? Now, why would you quit your job and miss conference? that's poor planning.
Jeff's reply:
No you are wrong again as usual but you have consistently displayed that pattern so it is no surprise. It is not the employer that is selfish it is RWD and his henchmen that think his sorry abusive conferences are more important than keeping a job. Can you spell control monger because that is exactly what RWD is and he has sure done a good job on you. Do you wipe his butt also? It sure wouldn't surprise me because you are about as brainwashed as anyone that I have ever had the displeasure of knowing in the NTCC.
5. Jeff, I think you are confused... No wait, I know you have been confused for a long time now. This statement just goes along with you character to get the teaching all mixed up and jump to conclusions on what is being taught. The lesson Pastor was trying to convey is that some preachers are afraid to teach tithe and offering correctly. That's all. It is never, and was never taught to go to the people and ask for more money.
Jeff's reply:
No; you are confused about the meaning of 1Cor 16:2 and Romans chapter 15 which corresponds with 1Cor 16:2. The NTCC leadership never learned how to teach tithe and offering correctly because they have to falsely place 1Cor 16:2 in their doctrinal statement and it has absolutely nothing to do with tithing at all. I guess you never read that scripture or you couldn't comprehend it's meaning either but whats new. There you go again with your flawed comprehension. Who is confused now? Sounds like everyone in the NTCC that has ever read their doctrinal statement. They were told to go to the people because I heard it myself. I have big huge ears and they work quite well.
6. All I have to say is: how can you afford NOT to have health insurance!
Jeff's reply:
Your right; so the ones that the NTCC has driven into poverty need to cancel a few services so they can work more and afford health insurance. Oh, I forgot: The Bible says in 1st NTCC verse's 1 and 2 that you have to hold no less than 5 services a week. I heard RWD explain why that was necessary also. "If you don't have a full schedule of services don't call Graham if you are short on money." RWD strongly suggests holding all those services so that his churches can bring in more money "from the people." Oh seems like I heard that before. You will figure that out one day either that or you have already and you are also a crook and a lair.
7. Better look again Jeff, you never had checkmate. My wife had to ask for a picture. She asked for one because she wanted it. Women are like that, they like to have pictures of people they care about. Don't ask me why, I'm a guy. King me!
Jeff's reply:
You must not have been around when RWD was sending them out. I'm glad you guys care about RWD because you guys don't mean squat to him not unless you are Kekel. He would right everyone else off and not think twice about it. And you would hear the same old garbage and I quote, "They just didn't want to serve GAWD." If you think you mean a thing to RWD you are more blind than I thought. You mean about as much to RWD as the other 30 ministers that left with the split right before RWD disfellowshipped all of them. Man you've got to be kidding me.
8. I don't know Jeff, my Bible tells me that a fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.
Jeff's reply:
Is that why you are spending so much time on this blog? Can you comprehend that statement and do you have the discernment to understand what I just called you?
Jeff
Anonymous said..."pdq said..."We were all told not to get health or life insurance, by Pastor Davis at conferences, and in Bible College…" That is a straight up lie, and you know it! More outrageous lies from exntccers to follow! "we are not allowed to have pictures of our family publicly displayed in the parsonage as this is not our house, this is what has been taught at conferences, and Bible College…" As promised..."
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous,
Since both these things were taught at conferences, and at our Bible College, it can be verified by many. Your confusion may be arising from my neglecting to use the word ‘policy’ whenever talking about all things NTCC. As we were recently taught by Rev. Kekel, every NTCC ‘policy’ can be broken at will, with no negative repercussions whatsoever. For this I apologize, I am still trying to undo about 20 years of my wrong headed thinking, that what NTCC taught was to be strictly implemented in a persons life, family, and surroundings.
It is instructive you did not challenge me on my other true statements:
• Ministers are shuffled around…
• NTCC is a harmful environment for children. One reason is NTCC’s long standing ‘policy’ that its ministers neglect every other consideration in favor of NTCC and the Ministry…
• Some Ministers, and members of their family, have been (and are) on some type of public assistance…
Let's see if I can remember some quotes from Pastor Davis past public teachings...I’m closing my eyes, it’s becoming clearer, (wow…the memory is still there) I can almost picture it, there it is…"What do you need health insurance for?! God can’t heal you! What do you need life insurance for?! God can’t take care of you! Don't waste your money on these things, trust God and save your money!"
I would be sitting in these conferences where Pastor Davis said this, with the knowledge that a few weeks (or days) before I had called him to tell him I could not come to conference because I had no money other than savings (he always tells us not to spend our savings, no matter what). Do you know what he would say? No, that's wrong. He always said, “Yes, use your savings, conferences are mandatory, whatever it takes...get there.” Does anyone remember Pastor Davis telling us, “When you save up $30,000 come see me, and I will help you invest your money?” We were never able to, were you?
We were repeatedly told at conferences, and classes, not to have family pictures in the public areas of the Parsonage, only in our bedroom, as this was not our house. So what did Pastor Davis teach in classes, and conferences? “The parsonage is not your house, don’t change the furniture without permission, don’t change the drapes without permission, don’t repaint anything without permission (especially if a different color), don’t throw anything out without permission, don’t put photographs of your family around the house, the only private area of the house is your bedroom, don’t change the landscaping without permission, don’t change the phone service from AT&T, don’t spend more than $50 without permission, etc.” So, many of us that wanted to display photographs, in the common areas, were restricted to the picture of Pop Gaylord and his wife, and Pastor Davis and his wife (both versions). Does anyone know when the glossy 8X10 of Rev. Kekel, Tanya, and Grant will be offered for sale at conference? I would then have all four.
No need to thank me for the clarification,
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
PS: Calling something a lie doesn't make it so, especially when there are many witnesses to the same event. Even if there are no witnesses (as is the case with any of the many women who have said Pastor Davis has post-current-marriage carnal knowledge of them, or he made the attempt), this does not make it a lie. Evaluating personal testimonies is not a magic act where one thing is instantly changed into something different, or more marvelous, or more pleasing, at your discretion. Sometimes, as a knee jerk protective reaction to things they are afraid to consider, people classify things as lies, or in the case of church folk…“Lies of the Devil.”
Question: Recurring mention of Pastor Davis sexual peccadilloes keep surfacing. (I heard of a new one this year, from the person themselves) Over the four decades NTCC has existed in its current form, why do no accusations against Rev. Olson, or Rev. Johnson, or Rev. Wright, etc. ever surface? It could be said the devil just tries harder against Pastor Davis. But, its Rev. Olson who screens all these accusations, and keeps them from getting to the man of God, and out about the man of God. So, the Devil destroying Rev. Olson’s testimony would be as (actually more) important as destroying Pastor Davis’ testimony. How many sexual accusations against Pastor Davis does Rev. Olson know about? My wife and I personally know of some, told to us by the women themselves.
Since Pastor Davis can’t remember the last time he sinned, and has never missed God, and has not sinned since becoming a Christian about fifty years ago, these things could not possibly have happened, right? I have never had a woman accuse me of inappropriate behavior. Do you know why? It’s because I have never acted inappropriately toward a woman. So why do these accusations keep surfacing against Pastor Davis only, and not me, or Rev. Olson, or Rev. Johnson, or anyone else on the ministerial roles of NTCC (that I have heard of)? Wait, I’ll answer this one…it’s all lies of the Devil.
pdq said:
ReplyDelete"Does anyone know when the glossy 8X10 of Rev. Kekel, Tanya, and Grant will be offered for sale at conference? I would then have all four."
pdq, you are nothing more than an evil gossiper!!!!
i know one when i see one
t
(if i cant get away with it, then im not going to let him get away with it) :))))
ps- pdq, keep speaking the truth bro
t,
ReplyDeleteI posted something here:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4237896034506560862&postID=1772708935228469101&page=1
in response to..."i am the 'Tom' that had been corresponding with Kekel, if you notice at the end of the e-mail he basically throws out a few insinuated insults at those who can't live up to his standard!!"
Yes it's excessively long.
pdq
pdq: The link doesn't seem to work.
ReplyDeleteJeff
Jeff,
ReplyDelete1. I guess I can wink at your ignorance of escrow accounts because I know first hand about some escrow accounts that were not lost as was formerly supposed they would be. You weren't in conference so I guess you didn't hear about the escrow account that Rev. Crain had in New Orleans that he was able to utilize in Memphis because of the situation.
2. Pastoring a church is a JOB!
3. This one gets them every time!
4. You looked unto the hills, my help comes from the Lord.
5. Never heard "go to the people."
6. Maybe they need to cut off their pizza night every week @ $25.00 and they can afford $100.00 a month for health insurance. Give me a break Jeff! Can't afford it? You afford what you budget to afford. Do you have a budget? We are encouraged to have one, but I guess those who can't "afford" things didn't hear that teaching.
7. It's not that they don't mean anything to him. The fact is that he can't trust them! Wake up!
8. Um... yes Jeff, what I was essentially saying is: right back at you!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete1. I guess I can wink at your ignorance of escrow accounts because I know first hand about some escrow accounts that were not lost as was formerly supposed they would be. You weren't in conference so I guess you didn't hear about the escrow account that Rev. Crain had in New Orleans that he was able to utilize in Memphis because of the situation.
Jeff's reply...
That was nothing but pure unadulterated damage control. The NTCC would have done that just to offset the bad publicity. Do you know what damage control means? That is one of the main reasons that the NTCC holds conferences. So they can convince the folks that can't think on their own that they are above boards and you are obviously not able to see that. Until you figure that out and you stop blindly stop believing every word that comes out of Kekel, Davis, and Olson's mouth, you will always be blind. The fact is anyone is blind regardless of who they blindly follow whether it is a military leader or company executive or church leader. Haven't you learned that in life?
Just because an NTCC leader says something in conference does not mean it is legitimate! Sir, I don't need to say anything else. You keep blindly following your NTCC people and I will keep speaking against them and we will have to agree to disagree. I have given you more freedoms on this blog than Mike Kekel affords his adversary's because he affords them none. He moderates everything posted on his blog because he is what I call a communist. Once again; damage control; and if you can't at the least even remotely see the existence of that, you and I have nothing else to say to each other. I appreciate you coming to this blog.
Sincerely,
Jeff
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteBeing that you like pictures so much, I made sure that you could look at mine when you read my message.
Being that you have so much respect for Mike Kekel and his father in law, than respect this.
Mike Kekel lets no exNTCCer freely post on his blog and unless you decide to show at least little bit more objective thinking you are no longer going to clog this blog up with anymore NTCC garbage like the kind that you just sent to pdq. I just took a page out of your fearless leader, Mike Kekels hand book: IT'S OUT OF HERE. Ha, ha.
Jeff
Also Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI have deleted exNTCCer posts from this blog so if you think you are going to come on here and lie or lie on us you are mistaken. I don't mind you saying that you never heard certain things taught but don't say we haven't when I know we have. I have personally heard TOO MANY NTCC pastors teach that you pay tithes on tax returns and you are not going to come on here and say that we've lied when we haven't. Don't tell me that I have lied when I have heard it with my own ears. Being that I have the integrity to delete messages from folks that post here regularly I have not problem with deleting yours also which is exactly what I just did.
Jeff
Anon,
ReplyDeleteYou are a pawn for your organization. The pawn is the weakest and most abundant piece in the game of chess. Most in your organization falls into this category. You are necessary and eventually will be sacrificed. Remember one thing unless you are related to the king and queen you are just a pawn.
Going back to the picture debacle, this preacher had that picture of rwd and would actually kneel down and pray in front of it like the catholics do.
ReplyDeleteThis is true because rwd told it to us in a conference.
Concerning what pdq said I guess
many people for some reason cannot remember many things that were said or taught like for example the debacle of computers.
For the longest time rwd said that computers were for viewing pornography or business, so nobody had a computer or the internet but then kekel talked to him about it and then everybody got a computer and had the internet. I remember telling this lady about it and she told me that rwd never said such a thing about the internet and still believes that rwd never forbade anybody from having the internet or a computer.
Now they are saying that they never said anything about sports being of the devil.
Is rev. johnson now going to deny that motorcycles are not for a christian?
What about black leather coats?
and maybe vic can testify to this because he was in st. louis and this was taught way back then, a minister was not to have such a thing.
But all that we say here is
"hearsay"
T,
ReplyDeleteIs there a way for me to get in touch with you?
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteCan I ask you a question? I just want to know why, if you are so convinced that NTCC is a cult, do you not seek an investigation on them? I know you think you have all the evidence and that you can't be refuted, that the facts are on your side so you don't have to do anything other than blog and recently you insinuated that you could/would write a book.
What I am asking is why you don't have a legitimate third party with no interest in NTCC either way, investigate your claims? I am, as a member of this organization putting this question out there because I have confidence in NTCC that it would stand up to a third party investigation. I don't believe you can find an organization that could investigate and conclude that NTCC is a cult.
-Concerned Minister NTCC
while some of ntcc's cultish behavior is immoral, unethical, and un-Christ-like, it is not ILLEGAL. so their antics may not fall under the jurisdiction of current law.
ReplyDeleteYa'll need to purchase pics of my Son Daniel!
ReplyDeleteI'm not handing them out, they are 5 bucks a Pop.
Please hang my Son's pic in your family room above ALL other pics.
My son will even autograph it for you for free!
If you have a pic of Davis, that's all right, there is always room for one more!
Just place my son a little higher than his mug shot, that is all I ask.
Remember President # 54 in 40 years, he is going to abolish NTCC once and for all!!
Daniel Johnson. President # 54 in 2048.
Bro Johnson
casey,
ReplyDeletetombean500@msn.com
concerned minister,
ReplyDeleteremember the things that Benny Hinn, joyce meyer, robert tilton, just to name a few are definately not of God and im sure you would agree. that does not mean they are going to go to jail or be listed as a cult....there punishment will be much worse!!!
they MUST stand before Jesus one day, its a fearfull thing to fall into the hands of the living God!!
remember Jesus said to let the tares grow together with the wheat so as not to damage the wheat until harvest
as you know the only noticable difference between the wheat and the tares is at harvest time when the wheat is bowed low due to the fruit on it and the tares stand up straight.... a telling ananlogy
would you try and defend Benny hinn if you had inadventently been wrapped up in his corrup organization too??????
t
Concerned Minister: It is good to hear from you. Sincerely. Religious groups are protected by the first amendment and they are very difficult to prosecute. However the NTCC has exercised some extremely underhanded practices; some of which are illegal. The fact is, NTCC specializes in damage control, and if I were to ever seek legal paths I certainly wouldn't disclose my intentions on this blog. That would be like telling a drug dealer in advance that you were about to raid their house.
ReplyDeleteHowever Concerned Minister, you did pose a legitimate question and respectfully so I might add. Strangely enough, despite the way I feel about the NTCC and the fact that I have very little respect for most people in it; I do respect you because you have consistently conducted yourself in a respectable manner here on this blog.
We may not agree with each other concerning NTCC issues but I think we've treated each other with a reasonable degree of respect. More NTCC people ought to learn that lesson and stop looking down of folks because they don't wear a long dress or a white button up shirt. That is not what Christianity is all about. Christ made that clear in the Gospels.
Good to hear from you again Concerned Minister.
Jeff
Jeff said..."pdq: The link doesn't seem to work."
ReplyDeleteJeff,
You have to paste the link into your browser.
pdq
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI understand not seeking legal prosecution. What I am wondering is why doesn't someone on your side try to get NTCC on some third party's cult list? It doesn't have to be just one cult list, It could be several. If you think you have the proof to pull this off, it should be as easy as letting them know you have a cult for them to investigate. Some of these watchdog groups live for this kind of stuff.
-Concerned Minister NTCC
you know.... whether ntcc is on a cult list or not,
ReplyDeletethese blogs and other ntcc information that is online is helping people to see what they are involved with it they
think about it and pray about it.
do not just react and say it is of the devil.
ask God to lead and guide you and show you the truth.
You'll begin to see what it is you are involved with.
I know NTCC has peoples thinking warped where if even the slightest idea of thinking against NTCC or that they might be in error is sin. As a result, people don't even consider rational, true thinking and biblical analysis.
in short,
ntcc may not ever go on a cult list but that is not the real purpose of this blog i dont think.
perhaps in the pre-internet days yes. but with the internet people can do a search, read, find out information.
this blog as well as others have helped people and will continue to help people.
10 Signs of an Abusive Church
ReplyDelete1. Abusive churches have a control-oriented style of leadership.
2. The leaders of such churches often use manipulation to gain complete submission from their members.
3. There is a rigid, legalistic lifestyle involving numerous requirements and minute details for daily life.
4. These churches tend to change their names often, especially once they are exposed by the media.
5. Denouncing other churches is common because they see themselves as superior to all other churches.
6. These churches have a persecution complex and view themselves as being persecuted by the world, the media, and other Christian churches.
7. Abusive churches specifically target young adults between eighteen and twenty-five years of age.
8. The eighth and final mark of abusive churches is the great difficulty members have in getting out of or leaving these churches, a process often marked by social, psychological, or emotional pain.
Casey said...
ReplyDelete10 Signs of an Abusive Church
Jeff said...
Looks like the NTCC met the qualifications of every sign. Hey Casey: I figured I would throw this out before someone else does. Where are the other two? Ha, ha. I thought you might like that. By the way, I am very happy for you.
Jeff
Concerned Minister:
ReplyDeleteYou never know what could happen in the future. I hear what you are saying. Once again; It's good to hear from you.
Jeff
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI got the list off the internet and didn't even notice that!! LOL
OK--
9. An abusive church does not allow you to question any decision that the leadership makes without you being jacked up. If you ask where all the money goes, you will be blacklisted and told to mind your own business.
10. If your church organization is located on Orting-Kapowsin Hwy in Graham, Washington you are an abusive church.
Nice list Casey, I think it has NTCC as its target specifically. Looks like it was made up by a disgruntled former member. But seriously, I'm not joking around here, what would be the drawbacks to having a third party investigate NTCC? What do you have to lose? If you are confident, you have everything to gain, right?
ReplyDelete-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned Minister,
ReplyDeleteI really did get that list off the internet, on a website about abusive churches.
Personally, I have no desire to prove to anyone that ntcc is a cult. I have mixed emotions about ntcc, because I haven't decided if they are a church that uses cult tactics, or are a cult BECAUSE they use cult tactics. I also know that there may be ministers like you who do not use cult tactics, and because of that your congregations may not see problems with ntcc. Of course, that is reflection of your personal integrity and Christianity and not ntcc as a whole.
If you notice-- I do not have any arguments with ntcc doctrine. I may not agree with all of it, but a church can believe what it wants. My beef is with the abuse, manipulation and plain mean-spiritedness of alot of ntcc. I do not see how the teachings of the Bible, and Jesus in particular, can be reconciled with the actions of ntcc as a whole.
I also don't believe any 3rd party confirmation of ntcc cultism is going to change anything. Those who are in will say it is of the devil and was done by sinners; and those who are out will say that it confirms what they always believed. It would be pointless.
ReplyDeleteANOTHER SIGN OF AN ABUSIVE CHURCH
ReplyDeleteYour family has a picture of the founding member **COUGH DAVIS*** hanging on their wall above all other pictures and crosses.
MLJ
When I get out of the Army I am going to let my hair grow out for one year and show up at an NTCC church service, pray for salvation, and continue to attend and not cut my hair.
ReplyDeleteI am sure I would receive a loving reception by the preacher and his wife and handshakes from Davis when he pulls into town!!
MLJ
found this while searching
ReplyDeletehttp://www.scribd.com/doc/11648899/Mc-Kekels-Land-Gift-From-Ntcc
so yeah, i'm thinking that is kekels. looking on google maps, Orting kapowsin is East of the residence and using the legend when zoomed in there is roughly 50 feet from the OK highway.
ReplyDeletethe document stated 30 feet is not theirs due to the highway and that the highway is east of the residence.
dont know how to locate the actual land plots with what is in the document.
ha ha, now that i think about it.
ReplyDeletewhat a smart real estate company.
they even have their own contractor so to speak with gesang doing alot of the construction and free help from the brothers.
yep, you gotta be a special boy to paint the fence for me for free !
Ok sorry I've been gone for a while my schooling has had me pretty busy. And because I am lazy and did not want to continue reading all the posts. I am going to post my 2 cents on something I just read. Really fast since I do have more schooling to deal with.
ReplyDeleteAnon said ...
2. There are companies that tell you to move, depending on your position in the company, or else, you lose your job. That's pretty much like being ordered to move. How about the military? You better move when they tell you. Oh, and you contradicted point one, I'll let you figure it out, you think you're so thorough.
Angie said....I have experienced both military life and civilian life so I think I can adequately answer this issue correctly. Companies out in the civilian world do not tell you to move. They give you the option. And usually you won't be let go unless they use it as an excuse to cut cost (which they won't tell you anyways). I should know this quite well since my husband has worked for numerous companies that always gave us the option of moving or staying. And most of them paid for our move if we agreed to move. This last time we didn't move. And we won't be since we like Idaho. Also the military usually gives you a list of places to choose from You pick your top 3 or so and then they pick one and send you there. The only difference with the military is you don't have a choice once they decide. But the awesome thing is.. the military will send movers to pack up your crap and move it for you so you don't have to get rid of your belongings and have to waste money once you get to your new location buying all new stuff to replace the stuff you sold or gave away (new stuff or used stuff its still new to you if you buy it right?)
It is infact a huge waste of money to get rid of most of your stuff everytime you move just to have to buy stuff to replace it once you get to your location. It is actually cheaper to rent a stupid u-haul if your not leaving the country and move the crap yourself then it would be to buy all new or used stuff to replace it. How do you say I should know this?? There were a few times we moved and got rid of everything that would not fit in a uhaul trailer that we towed with our truck. And we ended up regretting it because it cost a lot of money even in buying used stuff to replace the crap we got ride of. We sat down and figure out it cost more to replace everything then it would have cost to just rent a full sized u-haul and keep our stuff.
So before you go bashing on Jeff... you might want to get a taste of reality... I've been there, done that, could probably write the book, and design a t-shirt, and direct a movie if I really wanted too! For the last.....Oh I don't know my whole life 31+ years and my married life will be 11 years happily married in July. I think I am more then qualified to speak on this subject. My Father was also in the Military. My husband was in the Marines. And most of my relatives are or did serve in one branch of the military or another.
Also on the subject of health insurance. Any real church will supply their Pastor and his family with medical coverage. I should know.. Because that is what every church I have ever attended outside of NTCC does for their Pastor and his family. Davis just doesn't want to let his greedy hands go of the money so his Pastors will be taken care of.. Why? Because he is greedy and he doesn't really care about them in the first place or he would supply them with insurance. It really is not that expensive for a corporation to suppy medical coverage for their people. It would be cheaper for Davis to supply it then for the members to go out and get it themselfs. And living off the state is just plain wrong. We do not pay taxes so people can free load off our money. If you are disabled or retired is one thing. But if your just lazy or poor that is a whole nother story.
People are poor in NTCC because they don't have a choice. Not because it is their own fault. Funny how when I left NTCC I was able to work regular hours and actually make more money. Which is now paying for my schooling. Which I wouldn't have been able to afford to do had I stayed in NTCC. And I sure as heck would never have attended NTCC bible college even though I did consider it at one time. You know what made me change my mind? I asked some questions about cost, etc. And was told you will find out if your accepted. That pretty much made me decide not to go. If a college has to hide in secrecy until your accepted then it isn't worth going to and not accredited. Oh and guess what... It wasn't worth it and its not accredited so it is a big fat waste of not only money people don't have (or they could have used to pay for medical coverage) and time (which we only have 24 hours in a day and how ever long God decides our life is to be.
Happily living a Godly life outside of NTCC. And loving every minute of it!
God bless,
Angie
But poor people who are barely making it in NTCC because of the life they are FORCED to live couldn't afford to pay for health insurance out of their own pocket because it is not cheap. We pay a good chunk in change a month for our medical insurance.
I am addressing anyone who has called NTCC a cult and can or will give me a good answer to this question: Why not have a third party investigate and come up with their own conclusion whether NTCC is a cult or not?
ReplyDelete-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned Minister,
ReplyDeleteBelow is an article written by 2 PhD's about cult tactics. NTCC is guilty of most of these, and if you don't see it you are blind. I know it is hard for you to accept, but ntcc does use cult tactics. I'm really surprised your still with ntcc.
**********************************Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.
Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
2. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
4. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
11. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
12. The group is preoccupied with making money.
13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
15. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
This checklist will be published in the new book, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.
concerned minister,
ReplyDeletewith all due respect, look at the situations and scenario's that are playing out before your eyes and decide for yourself if ntcc is a cult or just "cultic"
you know your Bible and have a good knowledge base of theology and don't have need of some "outside source" giving you the answers
you already know the answer now stop wasting your time and move along :)))))
sincerely,
t
investigate? how about first hand experience?
ReplyDeleteBy a former Amway Distributor
ReplyDeleteI am not one to apply the term "cult" loosely, but after having attempted the Amway business for a year I can definitely say that at least some factions of Amway use " cult tactics " [sic] to keep their membership numbers going. To be fair, I don't think the Amway Corporation itself condones these sort of practices, but they certainly don't do anything to discourage it.
It seemed this was true at the distributor organization I was involved in. The cult tactics I observed over the course of a year included the following:
After joining up, our upline urged us to attend an average of four meetings of varying size and length a week.
The other three days a week, they urged us to be calling and setting up appointments to "show the plan" with everybody we could possibly think of.
In case you haven't yet done the math, this left exactly zero days to have any social contact with any friends or family who didn't join Amway with us. (by the way, exactly one family member and zero friends signed up with us).
When I expressed concern about this to our upline Emerald, his response was "if they won't join up, are they really your friends?"
At the meetings and in conversations with other Distributors, people who will not join Amway are frequently referred to as losers, people who have no ambition and cannot think "outside the box" who only bring down the few successful people they have in their lives.
By the way, my social life in Amway was restricted to my upline and downline. We actually got scolded once for going for a night out with another couple in our immediate sponsor's immediate downline (in other words, they were recruited by the same couple that recruited us)!
Watching TV and reading anything other than Money, Forbes, and other business and finance-related magazines, is discouraged. If your car has a tape-deck, you are encouraged to have a training tape playing anytime you are driving.
Also, when I expressed resistance about shelling out money for tapes and meetings, my sponsors did not hesitate to push my wife into buying these things without my consent. Needless to say, this caused marital strife, which the upline laughingly referred to as "Am-wars" and which they said were common among recruits during their first years in the business.
To make an already-long story shorter, after a year and about $1,000 lost on meetings, tapes, etc., I got fed up with this and stopped attending meetings and demanded our standing-order tape subscription be canceled.
My wife continued attending the meetings until our former sponsors asked her, in my absence, if she was really sure she wanted to spend the rest of her life with someone who had no ambition and no dream and would likely keep he from ever realizing her dreams as well.
My wife, who up to that point still believed that the Amway people we knew were our friends, never spoke with them again.
I could go on for hours about how horrible of an investment of your time and money Amway was apart from the cult tactics, but that's really a separate subject EXCEPT that the cult tactics are probably necessary to keep certain Amway distributorships like the one we were in going, in light of the fact that 99% of their members are losing money on their Amway businesses at any given time.
Hope this information helps people think twice about joining Amway/Quixtar, or, having failed that, helps them not feel bad if they join and decide to quit later.
concerned ntcc minister said
ReplyDeleteWhy not have a third party investigate and come up with their own conclusion whether NTCC is a cult or not?
i say,
as the above poster said... how about first hand experience ?
it is not in my interest to have ntcc investigated and labeled as a cult or not. that wouldn't accomplish anything.
i don't see how people can say information on this blog is lies.
how come all of the many different peoples experiences are similar ?
how come peoples lives are getting put back together when they escape ntcc ?
why are you so concerned on if ntcc is labeled as a cult or not ?
these blogs are here to help inform people, not just label ntcc as a cult. i know one ntcc minister who got out and said he is interested in helping and being there for people.... to help them get out instead of just saying oh ntcc is a cult.
if ntcc was lableled as a cult, you'd still attend, everyone will continue as is,nothing will change, and you'd all say it is of the devil, so nothing would be accomplished saying it is a cult.
but with the truth exposed on these blogs, and people begin to actually think, pray, and see and can make an intelligent choice and decision on their own, they will see the
hypocrisy
and that God is God anywhere and within them. He is not a God of "only in NTCC".
First: Hey Angie. Good to hear from you and I trust all is well with you and your family. You made some very good points about the Military and other churches that provide their ministers with health insurance. What a novel concept.
ReplyDeleteSecondly: Wow Casey! The last list of cult tactics that you posted fits the NTCC right down to the last letter.
Thirdly: Concerned Minister: Sir you have to admit that Casey's last list fits the NTCC exactly. Now to answer your question. That is a good idea. You asked the question; why not get a third party? It's a good idea. I don't see any reason why not.
Now having said that; I don't care if the third party is the Pope himself. I am more than half way to 90 years old so I'm sure that you can do the math and figure out at the least how old I must be. Why did I say that? Because at my age and with with the experiences that I have had not only in life but also my personal experience of years in the NTCC I am SURE they are a TEXT BOOK CULT. I need no verification from anyone else to confirm what I have already determined without doubt to be a FACT. The NTCC is a cult; the real deal.
Concerned Minister you must understand first. You and I didn't invent the word "CULT". Someone else did long before we were around and assigned the word "CULT" a definition. Every definition that I have ever read defining the word "CULT" mirrors the NTCCs practices to the tee.
The question is not whether or not the NTCC fits the text book definition of the word cult, because it does. The question is whether or not you consider a cult good or bad? If you are convinced that a Christian church needs to incorporate "Cult" tactics to fulfill Gods will, than to you a cult is no more than an effectively functioning Christian Group. If I am convinced that a church which incorporates "CULT" tactics is bad, than to me the NTCC is bad.
Sir; there is no gray area. The NTCC does use cult tactics and that can't be disputed. Just read the last list that Casey posted. Once again that is the NTCC right down to the last sentence.
So Sir, I have a question for you: In your opinion; is a church that operates like a text book defined Cult good or bad? Maybe it is necessary for a church to use cult tactics to operate according to Gods will? What do you think Sir and I am posing this question to everyone else as well.
Jeff.
just chiming in:
ReplyDeletei would have to say that ntcc is NOT a cult in the truest sense of the word- a true cult such as, islam, buddhism, zoroastrianism, mormonism etc, does not preach Jesus Christ.
that being said, the ntcc is MOST CERTAINLY cultic in their practices- they actually from a textbook standpoint more of a 'fascist, totalitarianist regime' that uses cultic practices through the name of Jesus
that is why there are so many sincere truly saved good people in ntcc, the spirit of God will still save people regardless of the fact that they are in ntcc, he still loves people!!
now, that being said as well, the question will arise in the victims mind:
"if Jesus is being preached and people are getting saved, then ntcc is doing the work of God and is therefore a good organization, right?"
but.......the fact that a false teacher/teachers USES the name and power of Christ to attain his own ends does not make him/them acceptable in the sight of God
just as Balaam was a "prophet" in the sense that he "prophesied" does not make him a man of God or a prophet of God, his every intention was evil and self-seeking, but was still used to speak God's blessing on the children of Israel and yet in the end taught Balaak how to bring a curse upon Gods children by violating his principles
i see a very similar situation at ntcc-
people do get legitimately saved and as all saved people, they desire to serve God.
this God given desire is what is used by the leaders to manipulate and ultimately bring a 'curse' upon god's children by violating his principles
ultimately each of us in America have his written word and are expected to seek his face and will on all areas of are lives, the fact that we let another man or our own self-will guide are lives is a violation of his principles and will result in a lack of blessing
in the end, many will blame God and turn away from him, some will see what they were caught up in and leave it and may try to expose it, while others (God forbid) will take hold of the manipulative and false teachings of the ntcc and become just like there false teachers!!!
which one are you?
sincerely,
t
Jeff said...
ReplyDeleteI looked up the definition of the word "Cult" in a dictionary and this is what I found. Of course a dictionary always provides more than one definition so I am going to respond to each one by number.
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
Jeffs response: The NTCC is a particular system of religious worship. Not necessarily traditional with the raising of hands and the requirement that EVERYONE pray in tongues, the dresses for women, long hair for woman, the short hair for men, the white shirts, woman can't have a job, etc. Legalism to make a long story short not supported by the bible. None of this is probably that harmful except the woman not being able to have a job.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers
Jeffs response: I have personally witnessed instances of great veneration toward Davis and to a far less degree toward Olson and previously to Denis and Kekel to a pretty significant degree with this business of people cleaning his house.
3. the object of such devotion.
Jeff's response: To devote time to something is not in itself bad, so this definition is of no consequence.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
Jeffs response: Explained on 1 & 2.
5. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
Jeffs response: Members most definitely live outside of conventional society under the direction of RWD, Ashmore, etc. Many people consider their teachings and practices false, unorthodox and extremist.
Jeff said...
Number 5 probably explains it the best, but I say that more so because of the rules than anything else. The NTCC leaders require folks to ask permission for entirely too much. Teaching that Cats are evil is unorthodox and running around trying to kill them is extreme and there are NTCC preachers who have done both. I have heard this cat hating business from four different NTCC preachers so don't say it is not true, and Mayers said that it came from RWD. Having to ask permission to visit family is extreme and unorthodox. Having to stand in line after church to ask Kekel permission to do something is extreme and unorthodox. Having to stand against the wall to ask permission to date someone of the opposite sex is unorthodox, extreme and absurd. The list goes on and on and many more examples were listed in the rules thread. I have also proven that this business of teaching that a woman can't work on a job is not bible based and therefor from a biblical standpoint, a false teaching.
Conclusion: The NTCC is extremist, unorthodox, false, and they are living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader so therefor the NTCC is a text book cult. I didn't write the definition so if you have a problem with it consult the people who make dictionaries.
Jeff
Jeff,
ReplyDeletei think there can be a blurring in a lot of cases between the worlds definition of a cult and true christianity
i think we need to pinpoint certain aspects like, who is the object of veneration?
if its Jesus and the leaders are pointing to Jesus that is a good thing
if its a leader, well then, that is a very bad thing
obviously ntcc is cultic, there is no way around that fact
concerned minister is either 'straining gnats" or his conviction and courage are having a hard time holding hands
the problem with ntcc is its too small to be recognized and disected by apologetic ministries
so we in a sense are the 'apologists' that have to reveal it for what it is
just a thought...
thanks,
t
T,
ReplyDeleteLDS is not a cult!
anonymous,
ReplyDeletei hope your joking!!!
if you are then, hehe
but if your serious, you need to study the doctrine of the person and work of Christ in that organization
as per Islam, Buddhism, you could make a case that they are not cults but 'just' false religion's
but in my view its really all the same deal
if you were serious....could you please explain to me why you believe that LDS is not a cult??
thanks,
t
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI've heard Kekel mention his cat hating and the cruel things he has done to cats. From the pulpit and laughing about it..while out at Graham on a thursday night many times.
To anon about the LDS,
I have no idea if you are joking or not...but let me tell you this. either way LDS is a cult. I know people who attend, I know people who have left, and they have all told the same stories and none of them know each other (kinda sounds like those of us who have left NTCC, we all tell the same storie and most of us do not know each other) and we have a neighbor who is LDS. Bless his heart he has enough respect for his neighbors to tell the LDS missionaries to leave them alone. We actually think he still attends out of guilt not because he wants to (again sounds like NTCC).
I know people can be genuinely saved in NTCC. But I also know NTCC tactics is to badger a person to go to the pulpit to pray for salvation until they give up and give in and go up.
Now my question to you who are in and who are out...is a person who went up to the pulpit to pray just to shut you up and get you to leave them alone really saved or no? Honestly I think the want for salvation should come from the heart. If a person is just doing something to get you to shut up and leave them alone then how is it from the heart? Now I am not saying they are or are not saved. What I am asking is...can their salvation really be real if they were just up there praying to get you to leave them alone?
It has even been proven in police interrogations that if you badger a person long enough to admit to something that they didn't do that eventually they will give in simply to shut up the police officers.
Well anyway..I need to get. Glad to have some time to read this blog again. Though I am not going to play catch up and read what I missed. Since I am still officially slammed with homework.
Unless someone wants to write my 2 weekly papers and work on my final? I have (counting this week) 6 weeks left of this class. Then I will start reading where I left off a few weeks ago lol. And I am just kidding. Unless someone has taken the college course U.S. History before 1877 then I don't think you can be of any help to me right now. This is a required class that has nothing to do with my degree. Isn't that lovely?
LDS is not a cult in the NTCC sense, as proclaimed by some ex-NTCC-ers.
ReplyDeleteI personally believe that NTCC is not a cult, it is a church that uses cult-like tactics.
Having doctrinal standards of dress is not cultic;however NTCC uses a cult-like standard by saying "Christian women wear dresses."
LDS is not a cult. I am not forced to attend anything. Forced I mean sent on a guilt trip if I don't make it to church. I have my own free-will, granted there is church discipline...but not for minor infractions such as not having on a tie one Sunday etc.
You have to actually sit in service, listen to classes and testimonies(not the "moanies")of the church members in order tho grasp a full perspective of the church.
Granted I don't believe everything they say;however I feel good about knowing that my tithe and offering is not padding someones IRA.
You don't need a note from your parents to get food bank access, why you don't even have to be a member.
There is a church government that I can stand by...
We can agree to disagree....
Anon!
Casey and Jeff's comments listing the attributes of cults seem to fit many of the attributes of NTCC at a glance. Having said that, I will not belabor the point by posting an extremely long post answering every last one of them. This kind of response will only be followed by more extremely long posts which does not make for good reading.
ReplyDeleteIn regard to the fact that many of these attributes seem to match up, I would just like to ask all thinking individuals to consider the fact that these attributes also match many other organizations, including the government.
Many of you have stated that it wouldn't do any good to do an investigation because we already have enough evidence. While I see your point to a certain degree on that, I would also like to point out that with every juicy tidbit of new gossip that comes out about NTCC, there is a flurry of chatter about it. There is an unquestioning belief of every accusation against the NTCC, and yet, the third party investigation, which, you say, will conclude in NTCC ending up on a cult list, wouldn't be worthwhile.
My question to all of you is a challenge. You have the ability to take the challenge or leave it. The ball is in your hands. If I were in your shoes, I would have already done this investigation long ago. Haven't you ever heard someone say, "don't take my word for it"? Anyways, that is where my thinking is coming from.
-concerned minister NTCC
anon,
ReplyDeleteyou need to seriously listen and consider that the LDS (mormonism) is NOT a christian church due to the fact that to them Jesus in not God!!!
that is the one thing that binds all true cults together
don't trust them because of the way the 'do church', you need to learn who EXACTLY Jesus Christ is to the lds church- do some research online and investigate
this is much more dangerous than ntcc and you need to get away from that church and not go back- it is the doctrine of anti-christ
http://waltermartin.com/index.html
check out this website and do some research on lds
i am not trying to offend you in anyway, but the LDS is truly a textbook cult and you need to fear it
sincerely,
t
concerned minister,
ReplyDeletethe short answer is simply "study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed"
and:
acts 17:11 "now the bereans were more noble than the thessalonicans in that they searched the things that we taught(Paul) were true"
you being a minister should really know the difference already
The Bible is the Key to our understanding
t
sorry, left part of that verse out!!
ReplyDeleteConcerned Minister,
ReplyDeleteI recall seeing a documentary on Jim Jones's cult. Congressman Ryan went to investigate, he at first saw nothing wrong! When members of the church tried to go back to the states with him, he (and they) were murdered.
When he was instigating, they put on a "dog and pony show"
Anon!
Concerned Minister,
ReplyDeleteThe important difference between goverment and a church, is that churches lead people to eternity and gov'ts do not. While it is true that these lists can also be applied to other groups, why does ntcc have to act like that, when Jesus clearly taught a "nicer" form of Christianity?
As to an investigation, I don't think finding someone to conduct it would be that easy-- for the simple fact that ntcc is really a SMALL group. Looking at the big picture ntcc is a very small church group and really not very important in the scheme of things. But still, they hurt real people, and even if ONE person is damaged by them it is too many.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteI saw that documentary on Jim Jones, and it was hard to watch. However, after he had ordered the people to commit suicide a woman stood up and protested, saying they should have control over whether they lived or died. A loyal follower rebuked her and said, "You wouldn't even be here if it weren't for him (Jones)". That statement creeped me out a little, because it sounded like something someone in ntcc would say. Then they all died.
Bro Casey or Bro Jeff...ya'll need to make a new post so we don't have to scroll so long. :)
ReplyDeleteThe Jim Jones cult...hmmm..believe it or not I had never head of him...think I will go Google his name and read for awhile. :)
There is this dude in Mexico I believe who says he's the Messiah. I forgot his name. Hope nobody actually believes him...
Blessings,
Dawn
Casey quoted...
ReplyDelete"You wouldn't even be here if it weren't for him (Jones)".
Jeff replied...
RWD has said essentially the same thing about himself in conference. He said that he was there first. Casey: Your quote so much reminds me of the NTCC. Any time anyone even hinted that they were questioning RWD some NTCC minister would instantly get bent way out of shape and immediately make a stand. Some folks may feel differently but I always liked Kinson. The reason I am saying that is because I have only seen him get bent out of shape on one occasion. Of course I didn't spend that much time around him but when I did he seemed to be a pretty good guy.
He at the time was an overseer, and my wife and I were complaining to him about a particular minister. He was real cool until I said something along the lines that the pastor learned his abuse tactics from the NTCC higher leadership and more specifically RWD or Olson. At that very point Kinson immediately shut me down. He made it very clear that he was not going to allow me to make any accusations that would in any way suggest any type of negativity toward RWD or Olson.
Casey: The situation that I just referenced reminds me of the exact same mentality that you just quoted. I don't care if RWD is dead wrong. The NTCC true loyalists will not hear it and not only that they will actually become infuriated with anyone who talks about RWD or Olson and to a lesser degree Kekel. That is what I call being a brainwashed cult member. Jesus is the only one who was ever perfect. RWD is down right crooked and Olson knowingly covers up RWD messes. Olson is the humble henchman. No doubt.
Jeff
Dawn: Sincerely, thanks for the advise. You are right. This is getting too long. I will start another one right now.
ReplyDeleteJeff.
OK, I'll end this long thread with one comment about Phil Kinson. I have always liked Phil alot, but like you said, he is fiercely loyal to Davis. But when his brother Chris left ntcc Phil DISOWNED him! To disown your own flesh-and-blood brother because he left your church is textbook cult thinking.
ReplyDeleteCasey said...
ReplyDeleteTo disown your own flesh-and-blood brother because he left your church is textbook cult thinking.
Jeff said...
Can I get an Amen!! Can I get a witness!! Text book Big Casey all the way. You even get to see my ugly mug with my response to that comment.
Your buddy,
Jeff
I also think Rev. Kinson is a great guy...but the NTCC ministers, most times, treat each other a lot better than they treat their own church members.
ReplyDeleteI would not care to have most NTCC Pastors as my Pastor. Most NTCC Pastors are great to hang out with as peers, but don't ever put yourself in the position were they are 'over you.'
The only time Ministers get to see fellow Ministers is at conferences, fellowship meetings, and if an overseer 'drops by' for a 'visit.' During these times Minsters are acting their most 'Pastoral' to their own Church members, and others church members...I assume because of the more public setting. Although, the overseer 'visits' can get pretty 'intense.'
This shows NTCC's ministers know how they should act, they just choose not to, in favor of the 'Davis method' of Pastoral care.
How can I make the above statements? Once again from personal observation. Through various unusual circumstances I have had the opportunity to observe Pastors in the non-standard settings other than during conference and fellowship meetings...and almost to the man they were abusive/hard/irrational toward their congregation. Yes, they knew I was there, and behaved this way anyway. (maybe they were showing off how 'in charge' they were)
I have also had other Pastor's church members complain to me, and my church members, about their Pastor's conduct.
Question: Why (or how) could everyone be lying in saying anything negative (no matter how minor) about NTCC?
Of course, we would be negligent if we didn't add...Pastoral Abuse by NTCC's Minsters is only a 'policy' they can disobey at any time...yet they usually don't.
pdq
LDS ARE a cult. Any church that denys Jesus Christ is Lord over and above all is not of God and is of the evil one.
ReplyDeleteMLJ
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the enlightning conversation we just had.
You cleared up a few questions I had about some folks in and out of the organization, and I appreciate your passion and honest intentions with regards to wanting to share with others the damage NTCC has done.
I have been hoodwinked. I have been tricked. I have been shammed. I have been lied to and I was naive enough to go along with the lie of NTCC for 10 long years. No More.
NTCC is a money making sham machine. Nothing more, Nothing less.
We'll talk some more my friend. Hey; at least we are out now. As you know, what we can do now is warn others.
ReplyDeleteYou are a great guy and that unfortunately is the type of person that the NTCC so successfully prays on. I'm glad you didn't reveal your identity with the last post. Sometimes I think that is good because it keeps the NTCC guessing. You know they read these blogs. Now you and I can focus on taking care of our family's and not RWDs and Kekels. They won't get another dime out of you or me. There are truly needy folks that could use a whole lot more help than the NTCC anyway.
Boy I like it when a plan starts to come together. One at a time.
Jeff
MLJ,
ReplyDeleteLds is not a cult look up Jesus Christ on lds.org.
Anon!
anon,
ReplyDeleteIf you are not willing to do your own homework and check out what the mormon church really teaches about the deity of Christ then it's obvious that you don't really care.
but understand lds IS a CULT, don't be fooled, ntcc is cultic, lds is a full fledged cult
please for the sake of your soul do some research
t
check out this link:
ReplyDeletehttp.www.utlm.org
it's called 'Utah lighthouse ministry' and will give you a lot of insight into what the true teaching's of mormonism really are
sincerely,
T
Anon,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your passion for LDS.
In some aspects, LDS' put NTCC to shame with their passion (even though it is mandatory for them of two years of mandatory missionary work, though that number may have changed.
I really don't need to go to a website to find out anything. All I ever needed to know with regards to serving Christ is in the Bible.
The Bible states, and I am paraphrasing, that if any man or ANGEL add to the books of the Bible from what ye have already received, let him be accursed
Joseph Smith claims he received a new revelation from an Angel Macoroni (pun intended). According to the Bible, let him be accursed.
Case open, Case closed.
By the way when i was at NTCC it was discouraged to go soul winning in a white shirt and tie due to folks already being fed up with the Mormons in the communities.
Bro Johnson
All,
ReplyDeleteClarification:
If any man or ANGEL preach unto you another gospel from what ye have recieved, let him be accursed
MLJ
t and MLJ,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all mission work is voluntary not required. Once you put your paperwork in, you are required to do two years on the field once approved. I am not sure where you are getting your facts from.
The Book of Mormon is not an "addition" to the Bible, but a "restoration".
Like I said "I do care" to look up the facts, but unless you have sat in an LDS church service and studied it out for yourself you don't know.
I appreciate your passionate responses on this matter, and the input you have put on this blog thus far. All I know is what the LOCAL LDS has done for me and my family! This is unlike NTCC, which is at times anti-family.
It not so much that you called LDS a cult, I can live with that! Its the fact that you said it is worse than NTCC, which it is not!
Anon!
T and Bro J:
ReplyDeleteFor all it is worth; doctrinally I only know a little about LDS, however I can't imagine that the LDS can treat folks any worse than the abusive NTCC pastors that I have know and heard of.
In my opinion the NTCC did just about everything short of murdering people. That may sound extreme but I actually mean that.
Another NTCC Sister that I have never talked to before, called me last night and told me of yet another case where a woman was driven to such extreme soul winning while she was pregnant, that she had a miscarriage. Now can I say from a factual, medical standpoint that for sure she "had the miscarriage" because she was guilt tripped into soul winning so much during her pregnancy by her abusive NTCC pastor? Of course not. Can I say that her NTCC pastor lacked basic consideration and common decency and that he was definitely an abusive jerk? Most definitely. Can I say that a woman can be driven to miscarrying her baby due to too much strenuous activity. Yes and this is why.
My wife was driven to do so much for the NTCC church including "much" soul winning that her OBGYN ordered her to bed rest because she was having premature contractions that came months in advance. During that time Mayers was consistently asking when she would be back to church and back to doing all the NTCC activities which includes soul winning. She regularly continued to go soul winning right up to her 7th month until her doctor and I finally put our foot down. Mayers biggest concern was his sorry church program and not my wife. As I already stated, she finally did stop but she definitely went on far longer than she should have with all that church business and soul winning.
I hold a lot of guilt because I allowed it to continue as long as I did. We left Mayers church before she ever gave birth to my son. I got sick and tired of his abuse, but I am guilty of allowing it to be perpetuated much longer than I should have.
Bro J. said the same thing happened to his wife but she actually had a miscarriage and the other sister that called me last night told me the same story!!!! Do these pastors care about the well being of their church members? Absolutely not; and when a pastor doesn't even care about a woman who is pregnant and he doesn't care about her unborn child's well being, that is the next worse thing to murder in my genuine opinion.
LDS may very well be a cult but I can't imagine they could be any less caring or inconsiderate and abusive than many NTCC pastors that exist.
Driving a pregnant woman like a slave is about as bad as you can get.
T and Bro J. I consider you guys my friends and I sincerely hope you both respect my point of view on this one.
Jeff
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteNo offense taken, friend!!!
i realize how bad ntcc is and that is the reason i am hear, but my point isn't so much who treats people better, lds is a flat out cult and it doesn't matter how nice they are or if they sacrifice all they have to make people more comfortable in this world
"what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?"
as you know my brother and his family are in ntcc and i hate ntcc with a passion because i love them.
but i do know that they are saved, but to believe what lds teaches about Jesus and the "god" that revealed himself to Joseph Smith will not save your soul.
i don't think it is good or necessary to patronize anon! becuase he/she claims that lds treats his/her family nicely, it is irrelevent and actually demonic
it is vital that he/she hear the truth of what they are involved in
sincerely,
t
t,
ReplyDeleteThen we let our lights so shine upon men, that they see our good works, and glorify God, who is in heaven.
We let our lights shine brighter than the brightest son. We must be ready to give our all for the cause of Christ.
LDS may be considered a cult by mainstream Christians, but they definitely treat people wonderful compared to NTCC. I worked for a Mormon company for 2 years, and they treated me a whole lot better than NTCC, while I was IN NTCC!
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeletePerhaps you should start an LDS thread....
just kidding..
I just went to the book of mormon on line and I actually read a substantial amount. The book of mormon is essentially a replacement of the bible. There are many obvious similarities between the Bible and the book of mormon however they are in fact quite different.
ReplyDeleteThey are however similar enough that I can not understand for the life of me why God would want to essentially make two similar but significantly different bibles? The other question I have is why would God decide to wait until the early 1800s to bring forth yet another bible when there was already one written. Then essentially write for the most part the same stories in yet a new book, but give the characters totally different names?
What is even stranger is why would God want to replace, change or completely add to the Torah which was already written thousands of years before the book of mormon was ever discovered by Joseph Smith. I know that in theory the book of mormon was supposedly written way before Smith came into the picture. I saw all the dates on the different books that were dated hundreds of years BC. But once again why all of a sudden give it so smith in the early 1800s? Wasn't one bible good enough? It's not like the English People didn't already have bible that told all about Christ in the Gospels.
To summarize, this evening I read plenty of the book of mormon. Of course there is literally only one chapter in some of the books so the point that I am making is that I was able to cover some pretty good ground reading the book of mormon quite quickly.
I have logically concluded that if I considered the book of mormon to be divinely inspired, I would essentially have to throw the Bible away. I see no logical reason or benefit for having two totally different Bibles.
I would say the NTCC and the LDS are both cults. Christ said that not everyone that saith unto him Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of the Father which is in heaven. I'm not sure who in the world is doing the will of the Father these days, but I am sure that an inconsiderate, selfish, abusive, hypocrite, double standard NTCC preacher can't be doing the will of the father. If he is than we should expect a free pass. If you don't even possess common decency for your fellow man how in the world can you say you love God? How in the world can an abusive, inconsiderate NTCC minister say that he loves God who he can't see if he has shown no love for his fellow man whom he can see.
A lot of those NTCC guys ain't saved according to the bible that I read and the LDS guys have totally replaced the Old and New Testaments and they can't tell me any different because I just finished reading plenty of their book of mormon. If you really want to know the truth of the matter I am not very please with religion this days. The Catholics are crooks the NTCC folks are crooks, the LDS folks have a totally different bible and they are definitely a cult because they think they are the only ones with the truth just like the NTCC does.
Jeff
The Book of Mormon is not an "addition" to the Bible, but a "restoration".
ReplyDelete"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book":
OK pro LDS guy: If your restoring the Bible, you change it. The BIble, as we all agree, is the authenticated Word of God. What God says to do - live.
MLJ
I will tell you what else is funny and Casey originally brought this to my attention. This thread started out with me telling SFC Johnson that I needed his help and I put essentially no thought into the heading.
ReplyDeleteThis crazy thing has had more responses than any other thread that Casey or I have ever started on this blog. Go figure?
If T or Bro J. or Angie or Dawn or pdq, or LT or anyone else wants to start a different topic on the front page of this blog please call or write me cause I can use all the help that I can get. I would be glad to have you do it.
Hey Bro J: Some one asked about you today. I will give you a call or you call me. Either way. Hey folks: The word is getting out about the NTCC because I am getting a whole lot more phone calls than I used to.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteJeff,
Perhaps you should start an LDS thread.... just kidding..
Jeff said...
What's so funny is you are right and I am actually not kidding. I did get a kick out of your statement. One LDS dude comes on here and look what happens. I have never read the book of mormon in my entire life but I read plenty of it tonight. I though that was necessary so I could speak on the matter at least from somewhat of a knowledgeable stand point.
The book of mormon doesn't add to the bible or restore it; it totally replaces it because it is too different and I know this because I just read a whole bunch of it. I read their BC and AD stuff because that is the way the book of mormon is set up. It doesn't have an Old and New Testament per say. It is just a continuation of dated books straight through the time of Christ and right on past him. I found nothing that even resembled the Gospels other than a few brief statements. I don't plan to read that again.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe Book of Mormon is not an "addition" to the Bible, but a "restoration".
Jeff said...
Anonymous; being the fair broker that I consider myself to be, I took up for you as I'm sure you read. With that being said the above statement is no more than a play on words and a quote from your own church. The book of mormon is a replacement to the Bible. Why would the bible need to be restored? Why would Christ need to be restored? He was already restored when he rose from the dead. And if the bible needed to be restored than how could one prove that the book of mormon doesn't also need to be restored? When do all these additional revelations end?
I will tell you when they end. They ended in the last letter of the book of Revelation. If one doesn't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible than their faith is totally in vain and they might as well not believe in Christ at all.
Jeff
"When do all these additional revelations end?
ReplyDeleteI will tell you when they end. They ended in the last letter of the book of Revelation"
Bro Jeff, point on, nothing but cold steel downrange with regards to LDS. Hopefully all will know that it is a cult, just a different one from NTCC.
Bro Johndon
Bro Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI will give you a call today. My wife is happy with regards to the individual you discussed with me who is now truely being "All that you can Be".
She has seen through the transparency of NTCC
Bro Johnson
you know Jeff, the reason you can't see why they actually need the book of mormon is because you have not attained to the level of deity that God has in plan for you, you see Jesus "attained" that level of deity and Joseph Smith "attained" that level of deity as well.........maybe someday Jeff you will understand
ReplyDeleteof course im just mocking!!!!
but that is the actual thought process behind mormonism.
you see the true Bible teaches that Jesus is and has been fully God for all eternity
mormonism makes him a created angel, lucifer's brother i believe who "attained" deity so that we can too.
its really just hinduism in "christian" garb, the word/faith movement has also taken a step in that direction by claiming that we are "little Gods"
the real danger is in the demonic subtlty of the whole thing
demons are highly intelligent beings that are far beyond are ability and can and will run us in circles APART FROM THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD
remember Jesus temptation in the wilderness:
how did Satan tempt him?
thru twisting the scripture. how did Jesus respond? with scripture in its proper context
notice he did not use his supernatural powers that we dont posses, but showed us the example of trusting the word of God and submitting to his will
i always get a little overzealous when dealing with cults because of the ability of Satan to twist scripture and make it seem sooooo real- its very dangerous
but god is faithfull!!!
sorry i went on so long!
t
ps- by the way, thanks Angie, feel free to add anything to that list- make it 100 instead of 15
Bully, bully
ReplyDelete"Hey Bro J: Some one asked about you today. I will give you a call or you call me. Either way. Hey folks: The word is getting out about the NTCC because I am getting a whole lot more phone calls than I used to.
ReplyDeleteJeff"
Bro Jeff,
Your right the word is getting out. Think about when you were living in the Servicemen's home. There was no internet then, no connections outside of who you connected to personally (face to face).
NTCC was only known locally as a local church, rules were more rigid and you knew a few preachers, but that was about it.
Rev MacDonald once shared with me something that I thought was striking.
He stated that Rev Ashmore, his pastor at the time (1980), told him that there was no church in Korea (NTCC) that he would be on his own. The brothers made it seem like there was no hope for him.
He shared with me that it was just him and his Bible, but he did not loose his faith. In fact, it was strengthened. He met my wife's Grandmother whom was deeply religious, who had a local resturant and catered to the the Soldiers there.
He did not know the Korean language, and my wife's Grandmother knew little English, but the love of God was the only language needed and they both understood that.
He would go over daily and play with my wife and sisters (who were 5 - 6 years old). They provided to him the Christian fellowship to make it through Korea.
When I left Fort Campbell in 1996 there was really no way to communicate with the Korean NTCC church. A local sister gave me a map who had already served a tour in Korea, which I used to find Rev Steven's church in Camp Casey, Korea.
Most of what was known about NTCC preachers or members was word of mouth and the telephone.
Fast Forward 25 years: a sinner invention: The internet, has allowed NTCC to BE EXPOSED for what it really is.
Jeff, your blog and Tracy's Blogs have started to unravel NTCC for what it really is.
When I left NTCC, I was under the impression that some conversations took place at higher levels for the preachers not to "push me", perhaps with the hope that I would "come back". I was a money Goldmine.
Joe Scrivens and Rev Shunk never pushed me away when I attended their services in Korea (I did not tell my wife), of which I am grateful. It may have been there were some friendships/connections already established between us.
I did not attend NTCC services at that time because it was NTCC. I attended because of the individuals I knew who were the preachers were decent, honest, and trustworthy (I cannot say that for all of the NTCC preachers)
I knew Joe Scrivens when he was a brother in the Servicemen's home 10years earlier. I knew Rev Shunk and his wife when I was in Korea the first time.
Looks like God has used a tool of the sinner, the Internet towards a greater good.
Long live your Blog, Jeff!!
Bro Johnson
Bro J said...
ReplyDeleteLong live your Blog, Jeff!!
Jeff said...
Long live the blogsters, who fearlessly expose the NTCC for what it is.
I nominate Bro J to the position of blogmister!!! Bro J; the fearless and brave one, who in complete self denial, through the ultimate display of valor, continues to post the truth, without fear of adversity, or the impending certainty, that he will be eternally disfellowshipped by the NTCC commi imperialists, to be cast out perpetually, into the outer realm of compromising Christian churches, never to return to the only true and holy church which to this very day is being lead by the GOOD REVEREND, RWD, the self appointed one, who bears witness to himself, having no peer, affirms that he was divinely appointed, and disseminates all rules, according to the direct inspiration of GAAAWWWD himself.
The GRRREAT RWD, the one an only, who steadfastly affirms that he can not remember the last time he sinned, who perpetually blasts people for the very iniquities that he has so clearly and regularly practiced himself.
However I, Chief Jethro Bobine, having been brutally abused, by the confirmed NTCC abusers, has elected to Champion the sphere otherwise known as the NOT NTCC bloggisphere in a deliberate attempt to expose the Great and Terrible NTCC for what it Truly is, in conjunction with Bro J the blogmister, and the Chaste Soul Sister 1 otherwise know as the blogstress, and pdq the learned one, and Casey the just and mild mannered minster of bad tidings, and T, the consummate theologian and the ultimate authority on biblical matters, and Dawn the conservative Christian woman who calculatingly reveals the NTCC truths, in conjunction with the curious Concerned Minister who is the respectable and relentless defender of the truth.
To all greetings.
Jeff.
Bro Jeff,
ReplyDeleteNow I need to learn how to be an exNTCC'er Tweeter!
Bro Johnson
Naww Bro J we need a myspace page lol!
ReplyDeleteBro J said...
ReplyDeleteNow I need to learn how to be an exNTCC'er Tweeter!
Jeff said...
NO!!! You need to learn how to effectively execute the office of Blogmeister. The master NTCC blaster.
Hmmm
ReplyDeleteThat is an Idea. Bro Jeff, would myspace or facebook be the next jump from here or do we stay in Blogsphereiana?
Bro Johnson
Anonymous May 15, 2009 1:58 PM said..."This is the point I was referring to when I said Katie needed to get her facts straight. You said yourself: "I am interested in finding out exactly what facts weren't straight?" The whole thing about the Philippines sounds kind of fishy. Did someone get their feelings hurt? We don't know, because these are all bogus claims. Again, just enough detail to make an accusation, but not enough to convince anyone except those who want to be convinced."
ReplyDeleteYet, I was with Katie’s brother long before, during, and long after his ‘mail-order-bride’ process. Katies brother’s wife is a great women. Again, I am a second witness, and all Katie has related about her brother is true.
Maybe Casey could weigh in on this. It seems the only mixed race marriages sanctioned by NTCC are the ones were the bride it a Philippina.
Your move anonymous-champion-of-all-things-NTCC. NTCC doesn't need another champion, in a perfect world they would need a good lawyer.
Yours In Him,
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
Jeff said...
ReplyDeleteWe stay in Blogsphereiana for now because I do not have the ability or additional time to orchestrate maneuvers elsewhere. In all seriousness, there are actually enough people reading this now that I believe that it is becoming relatively effective. Factnet was about as effective as they get during it's heyday. Quite a lot of people read it and responded to it. Originally it had quite a good format that I can not duplicate with this blog.
It gave folks the opportunity to start their own threads and when you responded to that thread it bounced that one to the top. You always knew what was current. I can manually bounce a thread to the top and I was wondering if people would be interested in me doing that?
To everyone: What can I do to make this blog better? Do more people need to have access so they can start their own threads so they appear on the cover of the home page and is there anyone even interested in having that access?
Jeff
"Maybe Casey could weigh in on this. It seems the only mixed race marriages sanctioned by NTCC are the ones were the bride it a Philippina".
ReplyDeletePDQ, very interesting comments.
Had I married my Korean wife 15 years ago, I would not be able to go to Bible College as NTCC only wanted same male and female ethnic marriages.
NTCC only recently allowed mixed raced couples to attend Bible College.
I was with a Reverand at Fort Campbell, Ky, and we were driving up to a bank and he noticed an attractive African American lady.
He made the comment "She's cute, isn't she?" then he stated "I can't marry her, the organization will not allow it"
MLJ
Bro Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI should be able to follow up on our initial discussion by the end of this week, respectfully.
MLJ
If you would like to branch out more, getting a Facebook account would do wonders.
ReplyDeleteMany many many NTCC folks are hooked on it...ministers wives, members, etc.
No one really does the MySpace thing anymore, now that's there's Facebook. :-)
Once someone gets Facebook, you can start a group on there.
PDQ,
ReplyDelete20 years ago, when I married my beautiful Puerto Rican wife, Bradeen came up to me and tried to talk me out of it. He gave me all these lame reasons that because she was hispanic it would not work out. I felt very strongly at the time that Davis made him do it. Let me tell you-- my wife has been a great wife, and when we lived for 3 years in Puerto Rico, everyone- both men and women-- were great people. Marrying someone from a different race is your choice and these Christians that try to stop you are just being prejudice.
Jeff,
As for the blog-- I would just keep it to this one place. People are busy and they just like "one stop shopping". Keep it simple.
you can have a free message board jeff. as an admin you can even give permissions to people to moderate, approve, disapprove things if you want.
ReplyDeletei haven't researched them out but here is one.
http://www.forumotion.com/
also on them, you can make your own sections and topics and such or just leave it blank and let it build as the users build it.
here's another before i go eat.
http://www.phpbb.com/
makes me wonder why factnet doesn't do it. they don't need the money, they just want money.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"you can have a free message board jeff. as an admin you can even give permissions to people to moderate, approve, disapprove things if you want."
Jeff said...
I am prepared to give permissions to just about anyone who wants them right here on this blog. Casey and I are both administrators on this blog with identical privileges. Casey could actually delete or edit everything I write and Visa Versa. I looked up both links that you included. Great information. I almost wish that I would have started this whole thing on one of those verses this Google blog. I like open forums. I will consider starting one of those but if i did I would have to incorporate Casey's recommendation which I happen to totally agree with. I don't much advocate having too many blogs or forums simultaneously to choose from. I'm with Casey about keeping it simple.
So if I didn't start a forum that is similar in format to the old FACTNet message board I would shut this blog down for "posting" but definitely not for "viewing". I would not take it off the internet for viewing the way I see it for ANY REASON and I would include a hyperlink on this blog linking the new forum if I ever decided to create a new forum. People need to have this to read if nothing else. Too many stories have been written here in a short period of time that clearly illustrates how destructive the NTCC truly is and has been for decades.
The information contained on this blog will likely be available to read on the internet as long as the "Internet" exists.
To all the NTCC leadership: I don't ever plan to take this blog down. If people search and come across this blog they will find out what your rule ridden, abusive organization is truly all about.
Jeffrey Collins
MC Kekel's response:
ReplyDelete"AARRRRRGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!"
R W Davis' response:
"Huh? What Blog? God has not revealed this to me as of yet, so just stick it to me!!!"
Tanya Kekel's response:
"Maybe some of you can come over and clean my house?"
Rev Gandy's response:
"Ya (Huff) Just Gotta get SAVVVVVVVEEEEEED (Huff) DDDDDDD!! Ya (Huff) Gotta get RIIIIIIIGGGGGGGG (Huff) TTTTHHHHH!!!"
Rev Stevens response:
"Jesus, WE appreciate Youuu!!"
MLJ
Bro J:
ReplyDeleteHa, ha. That is about the size of it. That was funny when you wrote that Tanya was worried about nothing more than someone cleaning her house.
Hey, I tried to call you but I didn't get any answer. Give me a call when you get a chance.
Jeff
"Had I married my Korean wife 15 years ago, I would not be able to go to Bible College as NTCC only wanted same male and female ethnic marriages."
ReplyDeleteWell how in the world did Kekel and Tanya marry?
Hi Dawn,
ReplyDeleteI wanted to ask you something...but was unable to post on your Blog...what gives?
That is another example of do as I say, but NOT as I do.
ReplyDeleteYou'll have to ask Mike and Tanya on that one,
Something going on with Phillipina women we need to know about???
Bro Johnson,
ReplyDeleteDid u and your wife (along w/ your adorable little boy) attend the JC,Ks. NTCC? My husband and I were there from 03-06 (bro & sis mccabe)I'm not for sure if this is you or not..lol! If so, please tell your wife I said Hello. By the way we left in 06.
Correct.
ReplyDeleteWe were there from 02 - 04. Your probably referring to Daniel?
When Chairty was born, we wanted to leave NTCC quietly. Then I ran into Naomi's husband who happened to work at CIF.
So much for leaving quietly.
I am trying to place a name with a face. Sorry, I'm a guy and a tactile learner, which means I remember things by doing hand's on stuff.
Heather Price and John are still attending NTCC.
Bro Johnson
Bro Johnson,
ReplyDeleteSo glad to hear from you!! I remember your wife did have another baby! Hows she doing? I couldn't think of Daniel's name. How old is he now? All I was ever told was your family PCS'd to Korea, and that was that. I remember your wife was soo sweet!
Yes, the Price's are still there. My name is Heather as well, my husband's name is Paul most knew him by Doug (middle name). We have two daughter's. You might not remember lol. My husband was actually in Iraq two out of the three yrs that we were there lol!
After struggling off and on for 3 years with the manupilative mind games I LEFT!! I always knew deep down something wasn't right. To this day I can't explain in words the emotional destruction NTCC caused me as a new christian. I'm glad to be OUT!!!
PDQ,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the revelation!
Rev. Gesssssssssssssssssssang, and his lovely wife Ssssssssssssssssssssssssandy obviously are two faced.
It seems to appear to me that NTCC is a front to hid their true love: Lizards!!!!
Any other minister, NTCC would disfellowship them.
So, NTCC members, as you can see, can you REALLY trust your current Pastor? Do you REALLY know what is going on behind closed doors?
I would be careful to confide in such individuals.
Rev Gesang and his wife need to be confronted to his/her face. Anybody got a phone number?
Looks like borderline bestiality to me!!!
MLJ
Sister Mccabe,
ReplyDeleteGreetings and Salutations!
Well, good for you! I pray you find a good Bible believing church.
We have a third son - Joseph, we just celebrated his third birthday yesterday. He is NTCC clean!!
Daniel is now 6, and Charity is 4.
Hope you and your loved ones are doing well.
Blest be the tie that binds.
Bro Johnson
"After struggling off and on for 3 years with the manupilative mind games I LEFT!! I always knew deep down something wasn't right. To this day I can't explain in words the emotional destruction NTCC caused me as a new christian".
ReplyDeleteSister, if you are able, could you please share with us what you went through with names and specifics? It would bring closure to things that have happened, as I know it has done wonders for me.\
You will not find any strangers on this blog, only friends you have not met yet :)
I believe when I left, I forgot the minister's name, I think Bellamy was gone at that time.
Bro Johnson
pdq said...
ReplyDeleteI could care less what business anyone has, and it is great to see yet another NTCC minister not relying on the ministry, or NTCC (or God) taking care of them, and their family. But Rev. Gesang’s second business goes against much of NTCC’s past and current teachings.
Jeff said...
As usual that is exactly the way I feel. I could care less if they have a reptile business. If I would have had one, I would have been preached at, talked to, and verbally abused by no less than three pastors that that I was with, two or three overseers, and RWD for sure!!!
These NTCC folks are the biggest bunch of hypocrites and double standard bearers that I have ever met in my life. Big Gesang enterprises gets a free ride just like Kekel does, because he is in with the man, RWD.
Just finding fault again hey? I don't think so. I'm calling a hypocrite a hypocrite just like Jesus did to the PHARISEES.
Thanks for the good post pdq.
Jeff
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteThe funny thing is, we as a couple respected the Mccabes.
We only had face time with them, but we did not due to many circumstances going on at the time had the opportunity to develop a deeper relationship with them.
Dawn was another sister at the church.
Again, we had planned to leave quietly, we did not want to make a big to do about it.
We did not inform anyone, but Sis Naomi's husband found out when I tried to clear CIF. He was a contractor. So I guess the word spread.
The funny thing was, the preacher at the time did not make the attempt to come see us, come visit us (if memory serves me right). Charity was born on August 20.
I think I continued to attend NTCC for a while after that, but my wife's attendance stopped.
Now, we left OCT 18 04 that same year. So as you so aptly stated, why the secrecy? We even tried not to tell anyone where we were PCSing to. Guess the cat got out of the bag on that one too.
All they can state was that I PCS'd to Korea? I NEVER received any phone calls from the church.
To set the record straight, I had mixed feelings about NTCC when we left to go to Korea.
I attended a few services in Waegon, Seoul, and Pyongtaek. I just wanted to hear the Word of God, not so much that there was an NTCC there.
No minister was contacted (to the best of my knowledge) that I was in Korea when I first got there.
So the secrecy was just that - a secret.
Bro Johnson
Bro Johnson,
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly the Parr's were there after the Bellamy's. When we left, the Parr's were there.
My Story...
My husband & I were newlyweds when we arrived at Ft.Riley a long with my two daughters. We got their in Feb. 03. He had been in the Army 3 yrs prior to meeting me (99-02), and was stationed @ Ft.Lewis, then Korea! He did attend NTCC during that time, and stopped going while stationed in Korea! I really dont know the whole story on that, although I had no knowledge about NTCC when we first got to Ft.Riley! He deployed April 03..
Sis Price invited me. I'll never forget the day I got saved at NTCC. I actually brought a friend with me because I was so nervous to go by myself. I had never been to church on a regular basis, nor had I ever read the bible! Afterwards I then realized my friend RAN out while I was at the alter lol! I however, wanted this new life, I wanted that personal relationship with Jesus. I remember going home being excited to read my bible, I was craving Gods word.
I started reading my bible at home daily. My kids, and I would attend every sunday, and at times sunday evenings! My first 'this is strange' encounter was when I was attending school during the day, and a certain sister would try to talk me out of going, in order to attend ladies bible study! As a new christian I wanted to do everything right, ya know?! Needless to say, I attended more ladies bible study then school. I remember during a bible study Rev. Gandy taught on holiness, when the inside is clean, it will show on the outside (something like that), modesty, keepers at home, etc. I knew he was talking about me, and I even brought it up to another sister afterwards, and she said 'God's dealing w/ u sis'. THE HAIR..May I add, no matter how many times I would read the verse "we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God'..I was STILL scared that if I cut my hair I was going to hell! When I would read my bible and see verses as 1 Samuel 16:7 The Lord doesn't see as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart. I knew in my heart what the verse EXACTLY meant, but NTCC would say "well sis, "it's talking about such n such".
I had the utmost love & respect for Rev & Sis Gandy. I loved them dearly. However when they left it became clear to me who I was serving..and it wasn't GOD!
There were certain sister's who didnt have patience for the kids in the nursery. One time I went down to get my kids after a service...there was a little boy (around 2 or 3) his name was Michael strapped in a car seat, because they couldn't handle him. Common sense would of been to take him to his mother, but of-course they wouldn't interrupt service! At times after soulwinning I would go to get my kids, my youngest would be standing in the corner, or sitting in a corner facing the wall! I dont know how many times my kids would cry when I would drop them off and leave them in the nursery day after day except fridays and mondays for soulwinning! Countless times I would miss my youngest daughters afternoon school bus on wednesdays, because I HAD to be there soulwinning. Me and sis Price would chase down the bus, or go to her school to pick her up because I wasn't home to get her, so they would take her back to school! I had to tell my youngest at age 4 there wasn't a santa, because santa was a lie. Another child in the organization told my oldest, she was going to hell because she wore pants, then when my daughter asked a certain sister, she agreed with that child!
I think through all my experience at NTCC, I only wanted to learn the truth. Even though I knew things didnt add up to what my heart was trying to tell me, I was afraid to leave, I was afraid of HELL! No-one can live under the control of man, especially putting them before their OWN FAMILY! It is definitely a SHOCK to think how quick mind conrol really works. Its abuse in my eyes!
Sister Mccabe: Were so happy to have you on this blog and that is real; not the fake NTCC garbage that has been spewed out for years. If it is ok, I would like to start a thread with your testimony on the cover of the blogs homepage, but I wanted to ask permission first?
ReplyDeleteHi, I'm happy to know there's more ppl who feel as I do. It's a relief. I'm not to familiar with threads/blogs etc..but Yes, you have my permission : )
Hi Sis. McCabe!!
ReplyDeleteIt's me Dawn..from the Junction City church too (that makes 3 of us here on this blog...we are gaining...hee hee).
Remember me?
I see you on Queshia's Facebook wall all the time. :-)
I used to check out your MySpace from time to time but I got bored with MySpace so now it just sits there.
Whoever the annoymous it was that tried to comment on my blog..I don't know what's up with that. I leave my comments open. Maybe it was a glitch with Blogger. That happens frequently.
I haven't updated Blogger in some time. I have gotten bored with Blogging as well. :-)
Actually I have been meaning to type up a post...just too lazy to do it. :-)
Tschuss!
Hey Sis Dawn,
ReplyDeleteHow are you? long time no see..where are u and ur hubby stationed at? I'm on facebook..me and Sis Queshia have been talking a lot here lately..she's a wonderful peron, and friend!! Hows things your way?
Sis McCabe,
ReplyDeleteThat little boy, Michael, who would be strapped into the car seat at times, was Amy's son. Amy and I were and still are really good friend's.
She would give the sisters permission (the pastor's knew as well) to contain Michael if he got out of hand.
He would have real bad problems with meltdowns and full blown tantrums during that time.
I've had to help Amy control him when we would be out and about shopping or eating somewhere.
He's a happy and healthy 7 year old now.
Also Amy did get called out of services many times...I was normally the one who had to go fetch her. :-)
But I just wanted to clarify that Amy gave her permission for her boy to be strapped in the car seat.
My hubby and I left Junction City January 2004 when the Gandy's were still there. Never got to meet The Parr's...although I see Sister Parr's Facebook page pop up all the time.
Gotta go finish some chores!
We aren't stationed anywhere...
ReplyDeleteHubby got out of active duty September 2008 after 9 years..now he's in the Reserve's for 2 more years.
We live in the Dallas - Ft. Worth area of Texas. Hubby is going to college full time and working part time and I am a homemaker, serving the LORD the best I know how.
After we left Kansas, we got stationed in Ft. Sill Oklahoma. We love that place. Still do. Thankfully it's only a 3 hour trip for us from where we live, so when we get the itch to go, we go and make a day of it. :-)
From Oklahoma, we ended up in Darmstadt Germany (2005) till July 2008. Hubby went to Iraq for a year while we were there.
We left Germany July 2008 and came to Texas, as that's where hubby got accepted for school. So, here we are.
Okay, I really need to get these chores finished before things start sticking and can't get scraped off...hee hee.
I gave Queshia this blog address a few days ago...she must have given it to you. :-) Tell her to come and post here...that would make 4 of us from Junction City...we will soon rule this blog...hee hee.
Sis Dawn,
ReplyDeleteTschuss(pronounced choos) to you
Dawn! I am another Ft. Riley "Grad"
so about that contact info :)
I am sure you don't want to put it here is it on the old Factnet or something?
Anyone find Jackie and Dave?
I have tried my best to find Jackie and Dave..online...to no avail.
ReplyDeleteI am hoping one day Jackie will go online bored with nothing to do, type in my name and find me...my name is pretty much plastered all over the Internet with the social networks, blogging, etc.
I did find Jackie's mom's phone number...I think it was her mom and I thought about calling to ask her where her daughter was but then thought it was a little weird...in a creepy stalking way..hee hee.
Who are you annonymous person? :)
Any why do you need my contact info...I don't even know who you are.
Sorry Dawn I didn't to be so rude. I wanted to ask you a question about haircoverings.
ReplyDeletenElLashara
This Blog RULES!!!
ReplyDeleteBro Johnson
Bro Johnson,
ReplyDeleteIt does RULE!! My husband, and I respected you and your wife as well! A very sweet couple indeed. You were a great song leader, with a great sense of humor! Your wife is a GREAT cook too : ) I remember she held a baby shower for sis Allison (she was new & then eventually left NTCC), but the food was Delicious!! I think that's actually the first time I had ever tried sushi/cali rolls! Still love them to this day LOL!
sis mccabe
I glad this blog is being used to reunite folks who lost contact and haven't communicated for a long time.
ReplyDeleteI glad you guys are enjoying it.
Jeff
Dawn said...
ReplyDeleteI gave Queshia this blog address a few days ago...she must have given it to you. :-) Tell her to come and post here...that would make 4 of us from Junction City...we will soon rule this blog...hee hee.
Jeff said...
I got a kick out of your statement. I think it is great. I'm going to start a thread on behalf of the Junction City crew.
Sincerely,
Jeff
Anonymous ~
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, I do not feel comfortable passing on my e-mail address to you. I have no idea who you are and my little radar attanae have gone up.
Any haircovering questions, please ask them here.
And don't forget to share your NTCC story with the rest of us.
Yah Bless ~
Dawn
Dawn: I think she already has posted her story unless I have a few folks mixed up which is entirely possible. Not everyone always puts their name at the bottom of the messages.
ReplyDeleteJeff
Okay Dawn,
ReplyDeleteFair enough...
I guess I'll fine my own answer...
NS
I am not trying to be mean, but would you give an anonymous stranger online your personal information?
ReplyDeleteYou will not tell me who you are, so therefore in order to protect myself and my husband, I am choosing not to give personal info out.
Dawn,
ReplyDeleteI know you don't mean to be rude, but you are coming off that way.
I didn't ask you for your social security number or blood type, I asked if you had ALREADY posted your email address in a public place...ie. your blog or Factnet. Remember ALREADY posted...not post your email on this blog!
I said I tried to write you a question on your blog, but it was giving me a hard time with posting.
I just wanted to ask one simple question about hair coverings, I wrote my full first name...Jeff seemed like he vouched for me. I don't want to post it here....because its not appropriate.
You answered me with...my antennae are going up...thats rude and presumptuous.
Just put a simple yes or no!
Nellashara
nellashara, i saw it the same way. that antenna comment was kind of a rude accusation like you had another motive or something. i dont know either one of you but dawn kind of comes across like that and she might not know it. i have been reading this blog for a while now and not many people come across like that so i wouldnt let it bother you. jeff and casey run a good blog. i guess dawn dont want to talk about that hair thingy because if she did she would have answered you.
ReplyDeleteNellashara (great name by the way)
ReplyDelete:-)
I at first did not see you leave your name in the posts. I thought those were just a bunch of letters or some word.
I didn't know. Forgive me for that.
I am sorry to come across as rude, I am actually not. I am cautious is all.
This blog is open to anyone. I can go ahead and leave my e-mail and all someone has to do is type it in and get my home address and phone number.
It's that easy. It's too easy to let our guard down on the Internet.
I will do my best to answer any questions you have, here on Jeff's blog (if he doesn't mind) but even my husband said not to give out my e-mail.
It's just a safety thing.
I am sorry if you still do not like that answer. What the hubby says, goes.
God Bless You!
~ Dawn
dawn,
ReplyDeletejust make a temporary email
use www.safe-mail.net or
www.mailinator.com
and you wont have to use your personal email.
And, a note to everyone, there are services now where someone can type in your email address and find out what all that person has been doing online and such.
so, be careful where you post your email address.
www.spokeo.com is one such service, there are many more.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteSlight correction there. I never witnessed Rev. Reed call anyone a whore across the pulpit. It was the previous Rev. who did that. Just a clarification...
Dawn,
I didn't mean to "go off". Sometimes I have a soldier's heart..but an NCO's mouth! God is dealing with me heavily with this. It is just when you have been verbally attacked or have witnessed it you want to put up your dukes when any dust gets stirred up. Many times in NTCC when you have seen an injustice, you want to go off. It is the power of the Holy Ghost that tells you to wait...and pray. Then again sometimes righteous indignation rises up...just have to keep that "sinnerman" in check.
Anywho...
I was looking for some sisters of the ethnic persuasion who cover their hair. I was wondering if you knew any websites of CHRISTIAN hispainic, black women partaking of such.
God dealt with me on this matter back in 2001 in a mainline Pentacostal organization. The Pastors wife covered her hair, and I had seen such a practice since my Grandmother. However I was being rebellious and mouthy...so I wasn't quite ready. I started in 2005.
I cover my hair when I go to the Temple(church) and when male vistors come to the house. Out in public, it makes people nervous because they don't understand it. So they think I am a Muslim radical or something like that.
By the way this is a personal conviction, doesn't have to do with anyone else.
I'll try to be good Jeff, and not stir things up lol! It is good that we can talk in freedom and not be persecuted.
Nellashara
Hey Bro Jeff -
ReplyDeleteMy wife stated you called. I'm sorry I was not home, I don't get home until around 21:00 hrs nightly, just comes with the job.
God Bless -
Bro Johnson
Nellashara said...
ReplyDeleteI'll try to be good Jeff, and not stir things up lol!
Jeff said...
For the record, I never thought you stirred anything up. Dawn in an attempt to protect her email made an unnecessary comment to you which different folks to include myself felt was kind of rude. You in my opinion responded how you should have. I think Dawn recognized what had happened and she make it right which shows she didn't mean any wrong despite the way she came across. Once again, you stirred up nothing.
Please continue to post because your input is invaluable.
Sincerely,
Jeff
someone gave me a church card from ntcc in graham recently. they are only having one service now instead of two.
ReplyDeletei guess the packed services never panned out.
...perhaps the recession is to blame..
ReplyDeleteRecession has nothing to do with it. If anything, the recession should be DRIVING people to go to Church.
ReplyDeleteEvery now and then God does His own wake up calls.
Make no mistake - the Word is being preached, but why are not people responding? become the word on the street is also getting out - in that NTCC is a cult.
Now, NTCC will talk a good game and state "well, we find it more fesible to have only one service as schools are getting out and folks are going on (GASP!!) vacations" or some other dasterly statement.
All is needed now is an act of God to close it up for good!!
MLJ
"i guess the packed services never panned out".
ReplyDeleteWow! Kekel is loosing his touch. Where is he going to get 20K to send grant to school??
The one service verses two? It is called as we say in the Army damage contol, react to contact, reverse bound and overwatch!!
MLJ
Nellashara ~
ReplyDeleteHere are 3 blogs of African American ladies that cover their head:
http://mysaviorsperfectwill.blogspot.com
http://acoveredsister.blogspot.com
http://muhala.blogspot.com
Have you ever thought of joining a headcovering Yahoo group? They are usually multi cultural ladies from all over the world that headcover.
May you have a blessed Friday and weekend!
Shalom!
Dawn,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the links. Now I can wear something that won't cause hubby to raise an eyebrow. I like coverings that are more modern, yet don't say "hey look at me"!
NS
Dawn and NS,
ReplyDeleteI have a sincere question about headdresses. Why do you feel you have to wear your head covered? Do you think the Bible teaches that? Do you think it makes you more holy, or closer to God? I'm just curious-- you don't need to answer if you don't want to.
Casey,
ReplyDeleteWhy good question! I will try to give you a short answer. I was hesitant to put my question to Dawn on this blog, because I was afraid that people think I was judging them or trying to be better. However, you all seem like a good group of mature Christians so i will answer what i feel comfortable with.
My Pastor's wife in another mainline church wore a head covering in church only. Even though she did as much as her husband in the church, she did not want the congregation to think she was over her husband or that she was the Pastor. She wore it out of respect to him(her own personal conviction)and how she felt with her position in God.
My personal conviction is I wear head covering in church(and when male guests come over) out of respect towards my husband's calling. I wear my covering out of humility and respect towards my elders, my position as a woman in a church..protected, honored, and cherished. I think of my ancestors, my Grandmother especially how she worshiped.
I did have some struggles in my Christian walk with vanity. NTCC called for the women(and men) to be on the spot perfect beyond perfection...it was never good enough concerning appearance and I guess works.
Well its my personal conviction. My husband doesn't mind it, as long as I don't stand out too much.
I have a prayer shawl, too. Things don't make me more holy just because I wear them. I definitely don't want to get caught up in that again
NS
NS had a good explanation...it shows our order in GOD.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Casey, we tend to read our Bible in modern English, but the NT wasn't written in English obviously.
During a study of the passage, I referred to my Strong's Concordance. We all have one I am sure. If not, www.crosswalk.com has a KJV version with the Strong's attached to it.
In reading the 1 Cor. passage, I came upon 2 different words for covering / covered.
Look here...
The word "covered" in verse 6 is katakalupto:
Thayer Definition:
1) to cover up
2) to veil or cover one's self
Part of Speech: verb
The word for "covering" in verse 15 is peribolaion:
Thayer Definition:
1) a covering thrown around, a wrapper
1a) a mantle
1b) a veil
Part of Speech: noun neuter
We see from these definitions that the hair is to be a "wrapper" on the head, to cover the head.
Then there is to be a covering which "covers up" the head.
The Bible is talking about two separate coverings.
Many ladies also cover for modesty.
I am no more holier than my next door neighbor Casey. :-)
What I wear or don't wear does not and did not save me, and nor does it now.
Later alligator!
Thanks ladies-- i was just curious.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first got married my wife liked to wear hats in church. Nothing ostentatious, just a simple woman's hat. Well the pastor-- I think it was either Bradeen or Gandy-- hated it! He even made some off-handed remarks about it. Well, one day he complained to Davis, and Davis said there was nothing he could do about it, because the Bible DOES say a woman's head could be covered.
I have shown up to NTCC services in my Plain dress and covering and nothing was ever said to me. But that's only because I was 'just passing through', I wasn't a member of their congregation. I can only imagine the brow beating I would recieve if I was still within NTCC looking the way I do...lol.
ReplyDeleteCasey,
ReplyDeleteToo funny I am glad your wife stood her ground and you stood up for her!
Well when I was attending NTCC off and on I was still dressing the same blah...blah... Of course the Pastor couldn't hardly stand it. My husband and I even though we were minding our own business and being quiet about our objections, we were called all kinds of hypocrites etc. My favorite was "If you are going to sin/not live in the will of God, you might as well sin all the way." Jerks!
NS
Casey,
ReplyDeleteIn reference to ladies wearing hats in church, they can wear a hat 10 feet tall if they wanted to, the Bible backs them up as their hair is also a glory unto them.
This Blog has undergone some unusual twists and turns, and now - women's attire ?!?
Men, sorry you cannot wear hats in church. Bald is beautiful!!!
Speaking of women's attire, a certain preacher was preaching at NTCC once upon a time and there was a lady in the front row showing off quite a bit of leg.
As this certain preacher was preaching, he simultaneously took off his Suit Coat and placed it on the woman's legs and continued preaching!!
Keep this blog real, everybody!!!
MLJ
NS,
ReplyDeleteAre the Raymonds still attending NTCC at Junction City?
I think they had 4 boys???
Bro Johnson
NS,
ReplyDeleteRemember Brother Daughtery whom Gandy also endorsed to go to Bible School?
Have not heard a peep about him either or his whereabouts, just like Jackie and Dave.
Would not surprise me if he did not make it or fell out of Bible School, he had some personality issues.
MLJ
Bro Jeff,
ReplyDeleteGood Morning! Another beautiful 24 hour CQ duty here at Fort Jackson, SC!!!
You might need to make another Blog (continuation) and close this one out, like "SFC Johnson: I Need Your Help" Part II
Have a blessed day, brother!
Bro Johnson
Bro Johnson,
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly, I had met the Raymonds before overseas in NTCC before they came to JC. The other family you were talking about I didn't know.
I really miss Jackie and Dave. I was there when Dave 1st received Christ. He was very zealous for God, at times he irritated my husband...but he was a very good brother. Excellent soul- winner!
Have fun on the "Q "Bro J
NS
NS,
ReplyDeleteOnly in Fort Jackson does a SFC pull CQ!!!
"HIGH FIVE"
Thanks!!!
Bro Johnson
Behold,
ReplyDeleteThe BIG 200 comments!!
This has been a most interesting blog.
MLJ
The Raymore's are in Ft. Irwin California...don't know if they are still within NTCC or not.
ReplyDeleteTheir oldest son graduated high school last year and Leah, their youngest daughter is now 7 years old.
I remember Bro. Dockery (not Daughtery...hee hee). He graduated with Jackie and Dave. Don't know if he is still around though. Time will tell I guess.