I spent many years as a member of the NTCC and during that time you were absolutely directed not to spend much time with people who the NTCC leadership considered to be "sinners". It didn't matter who it was. If your family members were considered sinners, you were strongly urged not to deal with them any more than you had to. If you sent money to your quote "sinner" family members, then it was common for an NTCC pastor to say it was the same as giving money to the devil. You were encouraged not to even deal with your "sinner" family any more than you absolutely had to.
Well the NTCC leadership and more specifically the Davis family does not even begin to follow the same standard. It was discovered that RWD purchased a winter home down in Arizona. Not a big deal in itself because RWD is a millionaire. I know he has invested to gain his fortune but you can be certain that throughout the years the money he's accumulated to invest originally came from NTCC contributors i.e. church members. Well here is the problem. You give your money to the NTCC, RWD invests it to gain a fortune and then he buys property. Should he leave his property to a "sinner" or a "saint"? What would the NTCC teach? I know what they used to teach because I listened contrary to Mike Kekel's popular belief. They would teach and have taught that everything you own belongs to God and you should distribute wisely what God has blessed you with. They wouldn't advocate leaving your worldly possessions to a family member who was considered a sinner because that would be the same as giving Gods blessings to the devil. I'm I right? You better believe it. Don't insult me by suggesting otherwise.
Well back to the house. The blogger powers that be, posted a link with a document signed by RWD showing to whom he will be leaving his big fat house in Arizona when he and Verna die. His grandson. Is that strange? Of course not, unless you are a member of the NTCC and your grandson decided to attend a secular CATHOLIC college rather than the NTCS and consequently according to NTCC standards he is considered a sinner. So where is your hard earned money going that you so unwisely give to the NTCC in tithe and offerings? Certainly a portion of it went to an $80,000 high school education at a very expensive private academy attended by RWD's grandson. More of your money will go to expenses which will rapidly grow at the Catholic Sinner Secular college which is being attended by RWD's grandson. Lastly, when RWD and Verna kick the bucket, they've willed their big fat Arizona house not to their daughter who went to the NTCS, but to their grandson who is attending a Sinner Catholic College. Go copy the links and paste them in your address bar and hit enter and you'll see.
Just like I was, you NTCC folks are so ignorant and stupid that many of you have completely forsaken you so called sinner family members and you hardly even deal with them any longer if at all. It's clear however that RWD and Kekel have done nothing of the sort. Not only do they deal with Grant, but they fund all his endeavors with your money and your money which RWD invests to buy houses will go to Grant when RWD dies and here is the sick part. You are so stupid, that you deprive your very own loving children who you brought into the world just to sacrifice for the NTCC just to have it go to a "SINNER". Knowing this, I wouldn't give the NTCC one more penny of my money. If you have children or a wife, and you are shopping for second clothing, and going without, and driving a raggedy old car, and you are giving your money to the NTCC thinking you giving as unto the Lord? You are an idiot and I strongly believe that God would totally agree with my assessment.
I love my family and they get things as a result of my income. If I knew then what I know now, the NTCC wouldn't get one dime of my money. Are you going to fund all of RWD's grandson's endeavors while depriving your very own children? Are you going to fund his endeavors knowing he is attending a Secular Sinner Catholic College?
For the record I don't consider the college Grant attends a "Secular Sinner Catholic College" but the NTCC always has, and if you say otherwise you are a flat out liar and you're deceiving yourself. I do consider it a Secular Catholic College and if you want to throw the "sinner" part in, then according to NTCC standards you'd be exactly right.
It's sickening.
Jeff
Should I mention that Grant Kekel was given a Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class automobile for his first car. Poor little Grant, why's everybody always picken' on him? He's got it so rough. it's hard growing up filthy rich. But we all know that not one dime of their fortune came from the organization. Just ask them Kris, and they'll tell you!
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with Grant. He is a good young man I'm sure. This ain't about Grant. He has no control over who his guardian is. My problem is that so many NTCC parents put their kids through hell depriving them of everything but a roof, food and water. This was done because of the way the NTCC system is set up and at RWD's direction.
ReplyDeleteThen when Grant comes into the scene, all the rules change but really they don't. Were it no for these blogs, people still wouldn't know. So now I'm telling people they should change and stop giving their money away to the NTCC and start taking care of their own families. Stop forsaking their so called sinner family members who love them a whole lot more than RWD ever will and stop funding all of Grants exploits. Let RWD and the Kekels pay every dime being that they already have all your money anyway. You guys are being used. RWD is the master of spending everyone elses money while making you believe that you'll be blessed in the process. That is a crock.
Jeff
Ok, As we discussed a few months ago, the $400,000 property illegally given to Mike Kekel was "entrusted" to him because RW thinks he is the one with the wisdom to make the right choices. We all know that is a bunch of bull, but let's play the devil's advocate for now and acquiesce.
ReplyDeleteThe $350,000+new pool and landscaping= $400,000ish. Which is going directly to Grant Kekel when RW and Verna die (1-4 years, nice little graduation present!) Could not this money have been used to set up an account for preachers who have been with NTCC for 30+ years and have nothing to retire on ("live on", we know that preachers don't retire...except RW)
The ntcc brass will say "tough luck, you reap what you sow, if they had been wise they would be wealthy like us"
Thankfully to all of us, Jesus does not use the old "reap what you sow" jargon to punish people, only greedy, pharisees do that. Jesus is GRACIOUS (UNMERITED favor)
So, please tell me you ntcc people, why has this money been wasted on a sinner and not used for the Lord's work or to help his people who are suffering? What happened to the retirement home for old preachers?
How many preachers are there in the organization? 1000? this money could have been used to purchase a large group health insurance plan or life insurance for all the preachers...or could have been put away to give a monthly stipend to the old preachers who have NOTHING, because they were advised not to pay social security by RW, preachers can opt out...and they get nothing when they, ahem...retire.
God help these crooks, Hell will not be hot enough for these thieves. Stealing from good men and women who love God and want to do his work, RW and Kekel...there will be weeping and nashing of teeth!!!!
People, consider these obvious flaws in the system, is your family suffering because of ntcc thievery? Do you have enough for your children? Are you able to purchase a home? or a car for that matter? (no, not even a Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class)
TB
Jeff said..."I have no problem with Grant. He is a good young man I'm sure. This ain't about Grant. He has no control over who his guardian is."
ReplyDeleteJeff You miss my point, I have no problem with Grant either. He is a nice young fella.
My point is what Anon said...People, consider these obvious flaws in the system, is your family suffering because of ntcc thievery? Do you have enough for your children? Are you able to purchase a home? or a car for that matter? (no, not even a Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class)
Wow Jeff!! That’s a mighty big hammer you have there and I see you use it well.
ReplyDeleteThis new information is beyond belief. People in NTCC wake up, he’s getting richer while you get poorer. Some of you think its all a lie of the devil and so did I for a while. But the God you service gave you common sense so use it. You can’t continue to suppress these thoughts day after day. RWD eat steaks while you eat roman noodles, he has plenty of gas in this Caddy while you debate on putting $10 bucks in the tank for soul winning. When I read my bible 1 Ti 5:8 says if you don’t provide for your own family you are worse than an infidel. Not if you don’t provide for the church your family. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
Anon that was in interesting quote about RWD tell preachers they can opt out of social security. That is true, but there is a catch. When you do that you are forfeiting all rights to government assistant. No medicaid, medicare, disability, or social security benefits when you turn 62. So NTCC preachers if your gonna do that, you better start stuffing money under that mattress, because when you need these services it will be too late. When you get sick because you don’t have health insurance and you get that 20k doctor bill medicare will not cover it. So prepare to ask RWD for the money!!
ReplyDeleteRC
Great points people. This is real. You NTCC guys are rapidly heading down the wrong path. Please wake up folks or you are certain to regret it later on in life. Read what we've written. I've not exaggerated. I'm sick about all the money that I gave in pledges and offerings and tithes to the NTCC. You can act like you are giving as unto the Lord but the Lord doesn't want you to be stupid. God doesn't expect you to be a dummy.
ReplyDeleteDo you think God wanted the religious folks of Jesus’ day to give their money to the Pharisees? Somehow I doubt it after all the names that Jesus called them. Find a good church that actually cares about more people other than the owner’s family.
Life is too short and money is too scarce for you to waste it on an organization that funnels it directly toward the founders quote "sinner" grandson.
Hey, it has always been the NTCC leadership who has called secular college students "sinners". I'm just following their lead and according to the NTCCs very own understood standards; RWD's grandson is a sinner. If you have a problem with that take it up with RWD not me. I'm not the founder of the NTCC. He is the one who taught us all to run around referring to everyone as "sinners" who attend secular Catholic colleges.
Jeff
This makes one wonder whether there might be a villa or two in Europe, or a nice tropical enclave someplace far from the prying eyes of the unwashed masses.
ReplyDeleteThese grifters are astonishing. I should have figured it all out back in the early 80s when RW started sporting a diamond pinkie ring. He thinks he's a pope, but he's really jut a 2x4 religious pimp.
Vic said...
ReplyDeleteThis makes one wonder whether there might be a villa or two in Europe
Jeff said...
No longer does anything I find out about the NTCC surprise me. What surprises me is just how brainwashed so many current NTCCers actually are. How could they just ignore all this information. Have these people forgot how they forsook their own family members because they considered them "sinners". Would they have left them a house in their will? Whatever. It's their money not mine, thank God. It's just too bad that I gave away as much as I did. Oh well, easy come easy go. I was a brainwashed dummy. Join the club.
Jeff
TB, they do talk about minister's homes for the aged in their bylaws and the possibility of orphanages, but they got better stuff to spend your money on...
ReplyDeleteYou know I'm beginning to believe that the NTCC leadership is changing all the standards just to piss off us exers. It wouldn't surprise me one bit. I can see them sitting back now.
ReplyDeleteRWD... "Yeah I've got something for them to get worked up about, they got a problem with my grandson? I'll leave him dog gone house and see how they like that one. It's my money and I'll spend it however I please. I was here when they got here and I'll still be here when they leave. If they don't like how I spend their, I mean my money, there is the door."
Do you think that is far fetched people? Not for one minute. I can absolutely see RWD saying something like that. It's amazing just how bad we got took.
Jeff
http://www.ripoffreport.com/nonprofit-organizations/soldiers-of-light-in/soldiers-of-light-inc-tony-bal-3edc3.htm
ReplyDeletesound familiar?
"TB, they do talk about minister's homes for the aged in their bylaws and the possibility of orphanages, but they got better stuff to spend your money on..."
ReplyDeletethe aged and orphans will be with you always
"Should I mention that Grant Kekel was given a Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class automobile for his first car."
ReplyDeleteI figured that when Mike denied owning such a car after Casey Hayes outed him for it that it was one of the notorious NTCC "make a lie while technically telling the truth" tactics. So it was Grant's car. That's some information he didn't volunteer. He bought the bling, apparently, but for Grant this time.
Mike's never learned what it's like to be continually parasitized by the org; it was all us rolling stones that gathered no moss while he was able to stockpile the greenbacks while laughing at all the "losers" who couldn't "make it happen."
I'd hate to be in the shoes of those that gave up social security. If what was said is true, you can't even apply for it, Medicare or other government benefits. So you try to work some labor job because you have no other skills and you're 50-60 years old, at the end of your life and down to your last dollar. There are more gaps in your work history than in some people's teethe and you expect to be able to take care of your family? No pension or retirement to speak of and you can't even afford to bury yourself. I don't see them passing around the hat for you at conference. NTCCers better wake up...
ReplyDeleteWhat if a minister drops off the IRS tax rolls completely, isn't this illegal? and are ministers suppose to claim housing and food and etc on their taxes if provided, for instance in servicmens homes? Inquiring minds want to know.
ReplyDelete"What if a minister drops off the IRS tax rolls completely, isn't this illegal?"
ReplyDeleteDepending on how much money the minister makes. Everyone who gets an income is supposed to file a tax return when they reach a certain threshold. There is an honor system involved if the income is under the table. Serviceman housing is not taxable because it is owned by the church. If the minister received a living allowance or traveling expenses it could be taxable.
http://www.kiplinger.com/columns/taxtips/archive/who-needs-to-file-a-tax-return.html
Well there you have it. The good old NTCC leadership saw fit to get the link removed which allowed people to view the deed willing the house to Grant Kekel. It was available just yesterday and when my wife just now went to view it today, it is gone. Imagine that!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThey wouldn't have removed it if they didn't feel like they had something to hide. The NTCC is so crooked that it's beyond belief. How can people stay with the NTCC having all this knowledge. You guys think you are saved being with an organization which practices all these shenanigans and you know about it?
Taking other people's money, investing it in property that you will to a sinner and then when you get found out you remove all evidence assuming that no one made a copy. I didn't start this game yesterday. I'm in quadruple overtime. I've been playing this game for a while. You NTCC guys are crooks. You've placed all these heavy burdens on everyone else that you haven't even considered following yourselves.
One day you NTCC folks are going to say, "Imagine that, that blogger blow hard Jeff Collins was right all along". Wake up people, wake up. The NTCC isn't what you thought it was. Now get out and get on with your life and find a real church who's leadership cares about more than just their own family.
Jeff
You know it's amazing how much information comes out about the NTCC leadership. If I wanted to be spiritual, I would think that it is God himself leading so many people to find all these bones which the NTCC leadership has hidden in their closet.
ReplyDeleteAs you sow, so shall you reap. The NTCC leadership has been picking about the lives of millions of people over the last 40 years and it just seams to me the God is making them to reap what they've sown for years. Now it's up to you NTCCers to do something with the knowledge that God has allowed you to have.
Jeff
You know it wouldn't be an issue at all about RWD leaving a house to his grandson if it weren't for all the families that the NTCC leadership has broken up because they considered someone in the family not saved.
ReplyDeleteWell according to NTCC standards Grant is not saved but you don't see them cutting him off. RWD wouldn't even allow M. Reed to pastor near Graham because he had family who lived in the area. RWD wouldn't allow Casey Hayes to pastor out east because he had family who lived out there. They want you to cut of your family but they won't cut off theirs. It's sick.
Jeff
Oh please, do you think it was ever in the play book for Grant to go to ntcs, be it as a sinner or saint? And other ministers are wising up and their kids are going to college now, too.
ReplyDelete"Well according to NTCC standards Grant is not saved"
ReplyDeleteAccording to NTCC standards, very few people on planet earth are saved.
You can ask his mother and she will flat out tell you Grant isn't saved. My question is well, why not?
Great points.
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteYou said that if it weren't for these blogs people still wouldn't know.
You are labeled everything in the book for posting the inside news about NTCC, and YOU are the one that they say is evil. They say that the things you talk about are not true anymore, and NTCC is a user-friendly brand of Christian org now. Well, had they ever stopped to think of WHY they stopped doing the things they used to do? Do they ACTUALLY THINK that RW Davis would have voluntarily just let people live normal lives and have their freedoms back if the news about what they were doing was NOT being posted in so many places online, but especially right here? Instead of thinking negative about you, those still in NTCC living fairly normal lives now in 2011 should be shaking your hand the same way they would Ronald Reagan for saying:
MR. GORBACHEV, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!!!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteOh please, do you think it was ever in the play book for Grant to go to ntcs
Kris said...
I drew the same conclusion. Nepotism calls for his exemption, unless he gets a by because he should have gleaned all that he will ever need to know by being MC Kekel's son. He doesn't seem to be interested in being a minister, or if he does, he is doing what may be a good idea: save some money, get financially set if you want nice things in life, AND THEN go into the ministry. That way you won't be a BURDEN to your unsuspecting sheep, who are about to be fleeced by you because you are desperate for rent money, food, and things for your family.
Hey y'all, leave Grant Kekel alone! We're football buds. We both love the New England Patriots, and anybody that likes the Pat's is a friend of mine!
ReplyDeleteI personally think he is a very smart young man. Why you may ask? Because he chose not to be part of that junk out there in Graham and will still reap the benefits of being part of the fam. I think that's awesome!
M.D. Reed
mercedes benz slk
ReplyDeleteThis is how I see it. It's a free country, and you can argue one way or the other about where the money came from and if it was legal, but despite the obvious, we have to say they seem to be comfortable with themselves and are not convicted about what they did, and are willing to take the risk of being proven to be guilty of abusing their rights as a 501c(3). To my knowledge the only thing they risk is getting their tax free privileges revoked. Whoop-diddy-doo. They could just play the game all the way until the day they get caught and probably still operate as a church taking in money just not as a 501c(3) anymore. From talking to the IRS about this, it seemed to me that this is the worst they could get it if caught guilty of private inurement (making decisions to benefit individuals that are a part of the org in a non-profit org, or granting exorbitant gifts to individuals in the org). Using my own deductive reasoning, I suppose this is why so many churches seem to have loaded pastors behind them. They don't have much to risk, while I remember that lady that does the talk shows- I forgot her name now- she went to PRISON for making an investment based on inside knowledge. I couldn't believe they put her in JAIL for that, and these folks can get filthy rich in the name of Christ and it's hunky-dory...
ReplyDeleteAnyways, it's hard to prove anything, and it may not even be worth proving anything as far as getting them put in prison, but even if they just saved their hard-earned money and got rich the old fashioned way, my point is that most of us were thinking this is all for one and one for all. We left our own families and friends and just gave up all our worldly endeavors to have nice things and gave up college to get a decent job, and gave up many things in the military and on our jobs after the military so that we could be gung-ho about this silly organization, and here's RW Davis living like a king, and blessing his own family and a few who are very close to him, not really doing very much to improve the little peoples' lives besides giving cheap rent on rooms to stay in at Graham. Who wants to live in GRAHAM? RW Davis doesn't even want to be there or else he wouldn't have bought a WINTER HOME IN ARIZONA!
I don't think it is a matter of proving he is guilty of some technical law. IT'S A SIMPLE MATTER OF PRINCIPLE. He only seems to care about himself, while we gave and gave and gave, thinking it was all about God and spreading the Word of God. How many preachers are struggling to get by trying to keep a work afloat in some city all by themselves, SENDING THEIR HARD-EARNED MONEY IN TO GRAHAM, and here R W Davis is loaded, buying second homes, driving around like the mafia in suits that cost hundreds of dollars, MC Kekel has people working on his car making it look like it's ready for a car show, they have people picking up their dry cleaning, and their Sunday School is so over-loaded with different teachers and puppeteers and clowns, it's like a DisneyLand.
I think Grant Kekel will eventually go to their crummy Bible school (If you even want to call it that) after he has his "real" education just to silence the critics. When I had my meeting with the old "spinmeister" he didn't even try to deny it.
ReplyDeleteI have to wonder if R'Dub even believes in God at all, or even believes in the existence of God. They should change the name of the organization to New Testament Real Estate Holdings Company Inc. I mean, why even waste the time even saying that you are a "Church".
Oh, I'm sorry. How could I be so careless. The tax write off.
Silly me.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHey y'all, leave Grant Kekel alone! We're football buds. We both love the New England Patriots, and anybody that likes the Pat's is a friend of mine!
I personally think he is a very smart young man. Why you may ask? Because he chose not to be part of that junk out there in Graham and will still reap the benefits of being part of the fam. I think that's awesome!
M.D. Reed
Smart Kid. Why buy the Cow, When the Milk is free?
You should still be able to get to it from here:
ReplyDeletehttp://156.42.40.50/UnOfficialDocs/pdf/20110016659.pdf
or
http://recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata/GetRecDataDetail.aspx?Rec=20110016659
Another document that is interesting:
http://recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata/GetRecDataDetail.aspx?Rec=20100917746
http://156.42.40.50/UnOfficialDocs/pdf/20100917746.pdf
Jeff said...
ReplyDeleteWell I'm a Jets fan so neither of you are friends of mine! Ha, ha. LOL. Hey I understand Matt but this particular subject is probably the very most disturbing to most of us who have children.
Vic Johanson once told me that the parts about his involvement which bother him the most are the restraints that he placed on his children. Guys like Vic and I feel like we've stolen our kid’s childhood. If you don't have loving children like we do you can't really understand the psychological distress that we experience because of this. There is an ever lingering guilt that doesn't go away because we love our children and we despise what we were instructed to put them through. We did all this just to watch Grant get a free ride never being deprived of all the opportunities that we were told that our children had abstain from.
For that reason alone I hate the NTCC just like Jesus hated the deeds of the Nicolaitanes in Rev 2:6. You wouldn't believe what our daughter went through because we followed the guidance of our pastor!!!!!!!! This ain't about Grant. It's about RWD giving his own family a free ride while placing all these restrictions on the rest of us. My biggest fault was trusting my NTCC pastor and following his guidance which came down from Olson and RWD.
People who don't have children can't possibly imagine how we feel. Having church members is not the same. Having soldiers in your platoon is not the same. Nothing is the same as having your very own children. It's a special love that can't be duplicated by anyone else and my daughter didn't even participate in gym class because I followed the guidance of the NTCC leadership. I hate what they've done to people. This whole Grant thing is a big deal. RWD drew first blood and now the chips are going to continue to fall.
I think it sucks that Grant is getting a free ride because it's essentially on my dime. I wish I could take all the money that I gave to the NTCC and give it to my children. It ain't my responsibility to put Grant through school and fund a house that he'll inherit but unfortunately I did exactly that while my daughter wasn't even attending gym class. I don't blame Grant at all but he is the evidence of the most hideous double standard that the NTCC has ever perpetuated.
Jeff
"You can ask his mother and she will flat out tell you Grant isn't saved. My question is well, why not?"
ReplyDeleteThe other question is: why weren't his parents raked over the coals like everyone else whose children didn't swallow the red pill? And I bet old RW wasn't sticking his finger up in Grant's face in front of the congregation and thundering hellfire and brimstone like he does with every other "sinner." No public humiliation for his family.
Jeff's right on target that the biggest thing I regret about the years of bondage to NTCC was my children's stolen childhoods. That's bad enough, but to know that these sharks exempted their own flesh and blood from the onerous burden they threw on us and ours makes it even worse. Fortunately, I'm not inclined to violence; they will ultimately reap what they have sown, but should calamity befall them in this life, it will be difficult for me to refrain from rejoicing (although I will try).
My kids turned out fine despite the pernicious efforts of NTCC to entrap and enslave them, but there were no expensive cars and educations to help them recover. At least what they have isn't tainted, though
RW's dynasty is a modern day house of Eli, and one day the boom will descend.
Those younger recruits that are in this new regime change within NTCC have not seen the contrast between what was initially instituted with words such as "holiness", being "separate from the world" and to "avoid the appearance of evil". All they see is what they currently may enjoy as luxuries or "blessings" bestowed from their local pastors or while they are in Graham. Remember the former things NTCCers that times, they are a changin'...
ReplyDelete"Guys like Vic and I feel like we've stolen our kid’s childhood."
ReplyDeleteThat's sad and so true, and what about couples never had kids because they were in servicemens homes and were doing the "will of God" not having any? That bunch is sick no matter how you look at it.
I think that has MDR decompresses from his time with NTCC that he will realize that he or his wife probably wanted kids at one time, but those thoughts were suppressed by thoughts instilled by leadership. Some say they don't want to bring kids into an evil world, some view them as burdens, and some look at them as an added expense they could never pay for. Some women have medical problems (maybe associated with stress) and cannot have children or by the time they start getting ahead, it is too late. Paul wished people were like him only because of what was required at a time when being a Christian was a one-way ticket to a lion dinner.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSome say they don't want to bring kids into an evil world, some view them as burdens, and some look at them as an added expense they could never pay for.
Jeff said...
I know how some view children. I heard it many times from an NTCC pulpit or just in general conversation. Let me say this for the record. My little boy has absolutely been the greatest joy of my life. Now that I have him, life would be so incomplete without him. All the money in the world couldn't take the place of my little boy. Words can't even express how much he means to me and how important he is to me. He means everything to me and he is more important than anything. That is about as good as I can do with words.
Just looking at him makes me happy. He is anything but a burden and if this world isn't too evil for me, it's not to evil for him. Life is good. I'm sure he wants to stay in this world and I'm sure that he enjoys life. I make life as good for him as I can. He is a good, well mannered, good natured, loving little fellow.
I have a pretty good idea how much God loves Jesus. I love my Son and he loves me more than anyone ever has. It's unconditional. To me, my little boy is the best little fellow that there ever was. Of course I would feel that way. I wouldn't expect any other parent to feel any differently about their child.
Thank God that my son was only 4 when we left the NTCC. My daughter wasn't so fortunate. The NTCC can kiss my white butt. The greatest blessing God can give you is a child. Many NTCC ministers let the NTCC steal the opportunity to have children. Nothing this world can offer will give you the joy that my little boy has given me.
To all you NTCCers who say that children are nothing but a bunch of snotty nosed little brats: You can kiss my butt!!! Say that around my little boy and I'll try to knock those words right out of your mouth. You have no clue what you've missed in life. I listened to way too many NTCC ministers talk down about little children most likely because RWD convinced them not to have any and it eased their conscience by making statements putting them down. I'm not bitter, I'm mad, just like Jesus was when he started flipping tables in the temple.
Once again, KISS MY BUTT. My little boy does not fall in the category of a "snotty nose little brat that costs too much" you jerk. This was not directed to the previous anonymous poster. Anonymous was just stating an observation from what I could tell.
Jeff
Right, just putting into the categories of who people might of been told to think like in NTCC by RWD. MDR is fresh out compared to alot that are on this blog, so as things unravel, decompress and he thinks back on the way he acted while in NTCC, he might see what was at the root of why he acted the way he acted. Many NTCCers are so upside down in their thinking that they don't even know why they do what they do, but they react in certain ways that can always be traced back to what they were taught. Since leaving "the way I used to think, I don't think that way no more..."
ReplyDeletei was told that rwd told the hundreds of people in the past conference that grant was running from God and that he would want him to be in the work of the Lord just like his daughter is.
ReplyDeleteIn a way he is not running from God, he is running from ntcc.
Vic said,
ReplyDelete"You can ask his mother and she will flat out tell you Grant isn't saved. My question is well, why not?"
maybe that's what they want you to believe. salvation is thrown around ntcc like used newspaper. if he really isn't saved how come he was not cut off? maybe he will conveniently be saved again once he takes the helm.
"RW Davis doesn't even want to be there or else he wouldn't have bought a WINTER HOME IN ARIZONA!"
ReplyDeleteit could be a back up incase that mountain blows!
No, you obviously didn't sit in on EF Gesang's class in ntcc's babble school, you know the one where the teachers just babble about personal stories when they are supposed to be interpreting the Bible?
ReplyDeleteEF Gesang said in a class that the school is above Orting. Remember the "suicide" curve that goes very steeply DOWN to Orting? According to Gesang, the lava would completely miss the headquarters, and they are absolutely safe from that kind of a natural disaster.
I think RW discourages parenthood because he knows that good parents are devoted to their children, and he can't stand the idea of anyone being devoted to anything besides him and his corrupt organization. He certainly understands that heavy expenses are involved, and he would prefer that these funds go to his coffers than to providing for offspring.
ReplyDeleteConsideration for our childrens' futures was a major factor when we decided to extricate ourselves from the org trap, and I'm persuaded that this also influences many others to bail. RW knows that it's much more difficult to manipulate people when they have families to consider.
I'm with you, Jeff, regarding the cosmic blessing of having kids, but it was a very close call and I was almost cheated out of it. The only reason I hadn't been snipped yet was that I was so broke I couldn't afford it. So God had an opportunity to bestow a priceless gift upon us, and being a father has taught me more about God and his nature than anything anyone in NTCC ever did or could. I'm sorry I didn't have more, in fact, but at least all my coals weren't quenched.
"i was told that rwd told the hundreds of people in the past conference that grant was running from God and that he would want him to be in the work of the Lord just like his daughter is."
ReplyDeleteWas Grant in that service, and did he get right up in his face like he does with others? I doubt it.
You and I are on the same sheet of music where kids are concerned Vic. I just made sure my little boy was covered up with his blankets while he is sleeping. It's nice. On to a different subject.
ReplyDeleteI just got off the phone with a current NTCC pastor still in the org and still the pastor of an NTCC church. I actually enjoyed talking to him. He is a pretty nice guy. All I can say is that I wish the best for him. I may leave him one of my worldly possessions when I die. Ha, ha. He'll know what I'm talking about if he happens to read this message. The sad part is, it will probably be more than the NTCC leadership will ever leave him. All he'll be likely to get from them is a swift kick in the butt. Ha, ha.
If you read this Sir, I'm sure you are laughing. He kind of straightened me out if that is possible. After dealing with NTCC pastors as long as I did, I don't take to them straightening me out very well but he did a good job.
On this blog I wrote one time something along the lines that NTCC pastors are all crooks. Well I had my reasons for writing that. I felt that if you were trying to be right with God, it was virtually impossible to do so when you deliberately ignored the double standards which clearly exist within the NTCC.
Well he straightened me out and I have to retract that statement and say that I was wrong and here is the reason why. Even if you do recognise the double standards in the NTCC, (which I believe that many NTCC pastors do) it's not as simple as just packing up your bags and says I'm gone after you've been with the NTCC for years. That is not a decision that comes too rapidly most of the time so therefor all NTCC pastors are not crooks and I openly apologize to all NTCC pastors for making that blanket statement.
Now if you are a crook and the shoe fits, then buddy you'll have to wear it and my statement still stands.
If you are not a crook and you call me, I have no problem with telling you I was wrong over the phone. If you want to come to Columbus Ga in person then I'll tell you I was wrong to your face. But if you are a crook, then you are a crook, and you know who you are, and RWD is definitely a crook and Mike Kekel is a liar and J. Olson is an enabler who is also a crook.
All these are crooks I know for sure. Unless he has changed, Ramirez is abusive and Ashmore is a blow hard. According to previous NTCC standards, Kinson and Kekel are both compromisers. L.D. Jones is a yes man, a good orator but a yes man nevertheless. Dallas Snyder is a jerk who tells racist jokes which also makes him a crook becasue he is supposed to be a Christian.
Now having said all that, you NTCC pastors who've been around the NTCC for a while and recognize the double standards? If you don't eventually leave the NTCC, you've become a partaker of another mans sins and consequently according to Christian standards you can be classified as a crook. Ha, ha. Chew on that for a while.
Jeff
Should I mention that Grant Kekel was given a Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class automobile for his first car
ReplyDeleteWell folks there you have it. GRANT Kekel is reaping the fruits of YOUR labor for the lost.
YOU are winning!!!
BRO JOHNSON
We need to dig a little deeper on this Alex Nunez document and find out what is going on here. Interesting...
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know the Nunez's??
TB
Alex Nunez? Hmmmmmmm.
ReplyDeleteIt is kind of interesting. Something is going on there. The guy owns a construction company I think. It almost appears as though he gave the house to Davis. The whole thing seems kind of strange. Davis is a crafty one.
See, just playing the game. Giving lip service and being menpleasers.
ReplyDeleteHowever, you see the Lord only allows that for so long, then he removes the hedge...the restraining element and out you go.... showing that gifts, words of praise, and so on were nothing, just lipservice and menpleasers. Which includes Matt Reed!
Now, chew on that!
However, you see the Lord only allows that for so long, then he removes the hedge...the restraining element and out you go....
ReplyDeleteOut you go, yes, and it's then you realize life is better than you ever dreamed it could be. The only regret anyone ever has when they leave NTCC is that they didn't do it sooner.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSee, just playing the game. Giving lip service and being menpleasers.
However, you see the Lord only allows that for so long, then he removes the hedge...the restraining element and out you go.... showing that gifts, words of praise, and so on were nothing, just lipservice and menpleasers. Which includes Matt Reed!
Now, chew on that!
I don't think M.Reed was a menpleaser he gave all he could give and it still wasn't good enough. When the Reeds got back to Graham they were upbraided to the point where it was too much! I wont get into details because I don't have permission to do so. We do not know all that went on that caused their departure. I would be careful in your assumptions These people gave of themselves for many many years. Moving from place to place never really having their own home, giving themselves in servicemens work you think they did all that for just a pat on the back? In my opinion its not worth all that for just a pat on the back, if your doing it for Jesus its worth it but it gets to the point where you ask yourself should I stay and be destroyed or should I leave and prosper? I believe the Reeds had to make this decision as I did. We don't always know the full picture and what is going on behind the scenes. Maybe the Reeds left because he didn't want to be a men pleaser? Maybe He knew in his heart he wasn't happy and didn't feel certain things were right and wanted to please God rather than men.
Lord help you
Sincerely Shonda Cannon
Hey Jeff, I'll take the computer. (hahaha)I am not into cameras. I didn't straighten you out, but I am glad that you explained that we all are not crooks.
ReplyDeleteBro. Bellamy
Anon said
ReplyDelete"See, just playing the game. Giving lip service and being menpleasers"
This statement is very telling. Is this not what everybody is while they're in? Davis calls it loyalty, but when you leave this is what the leadership will say about you and make no mistake either, this is one of the leaders saying this. It looks like either Ashmore or Kekel, I can tell by the style of writting.
see ya!
Shonda, thank you for your kind words in your post. You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly why we left.
ReplyDeleteM.D. Reed
Shonda Cannon said, "When the Reeds got back to Graham they were upbraided to the point where it was too much! I wont get into details because I don't have permission to do so. We do not know all that went on that caused their departure. "
ReplyDeleteThis would make for some interesting reading.
I could see MDR wondering as he nears the 50 mark, "Man, I'm going here and there and what do I have to show for it..." and wondering how his wife would ever be taken care of if he got hurt on a job, died, or was disabled in some way. Later on he gets to some conference and gets blasted around a table or from the pulpit about not giving more or being more willing to go somewhere or do something. Then he wonders, "I gave all I can give and then you don't appreciate the gift or the giver..." "Debbie, it's time to go..." RWD calls him Absalom but we call him REAL...
ReplyDeleteThey praise you when you have people and profits and prey upon you when you part...
ReplyDeleteSo, it was hurt feelings.
ReplyDeleteDid you ever share that with anyone?
See, it is really deeper than that. It comes from what that other writer made reference to. I think he called it "the root" or something. See how that it works slow, but it works and does not care who it works on.
Let this be a lesson to all those in NTCC.
Keep out that root of bitterness, by which MANY ARE DEFILED!!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteRWD calls him Absalom but we call him REAL...
Jeff said...
That was real message. Unfortunately the NTCC leadership deliberately ignores reality while placing their people in an irreversible a bind.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteKeep out that root of bitterness, by which MANY ARE DEFILED!!
Jeff said...
No you are the "root" of the problem and quite deceived to say the least. As long as you remain with the NTCC you are to a degree quite defiled yourself.
Jeff
Anonymous asked...
ReplyDeleteDid you ever share that with anyone?
Jeff said...
Why would you? I learned where sharing things with NTCC pastors got me. Your business gets aired to everyone. They use it against you. You are an idiot if you share something with the NTCC leadership especially with RWD. You might as well cut your own head off. I wouldn't tell RWD my dog died because he'd figure out some way to use it against me.
Do you want to prevent yourself from having a bunch of sorrows with your with the NTCC? Keep your business to yourself and certainly don't share it with the NTCC leadership but what do I know.
Jeff
I think the writer said "bitterness was". Over...
ReplyDeleteWhat about RWD's monstorous moter home/RV? I wonder who's gonna get that?
ReplyDelete"So, it was hurt feelings.
ReplyDeleteDid you ever share that with anyone?"
Everyone who is with NTCC for more than about five minutes will have their feelings hurt, and it will continue happening on a regular basis until they leave. Then they will be free to share with the world exactly how and why their feelings were hurt. Anyone's feelings would be hurt by the treatment these org "leaders" dish out, and it is cathartic and beneficial to expose the situation for what it is: a group of abusive exploiters doing their best to mine the lives of others for whatever they can extract.
It feels good just saying that. I recommend that anyone whose feelings were (justifiably, in most every case) hurt by the NTCC to open up and spill your guts here. Let the world know just exactly how these men are behind their "holiness" facade. It will be a good deed, functioning as a warning to the unwary.
I have successfully not commented on anything written unless it was written about me, but I believe that I am justified in responding to "Anonymous."
ReplyDeleteFirst, my question is why do people post Anonymously? I am still with NTCC, but I am not going to hide behind anonymous, because I am not afraid that others will read what I am saying. If this is the way that I feel then posting anonymous doesn't change that fact whether I agree or disagree.
Second and the reason I am commenting is that the writer that said for all in NTCC to be careful of bitterness missed the point of why the Reeds decided to leave. I do not know all the facts of why they left. I have fellowshipped with them during conferences and when he pastored in I believe Lakewood WA, and he always seemed to be very sincere. And when I heard of his departure I begin to realize that many of the things that I have experienced really needed to be given some prayer and attention.
The fact is that Rev. Kekel stated in his blog and at Spring Conference 2010 that a danger that preacher's face when getting older is they abandon the ministry for secular careers, because they have not saved in their youth; they bought toys and other things and now as they get towards retirement age they must get out of God's will to prepare.
We DO NOT buy toys and other things. We DO pay most of the expenses for the church. We DO go in debt for the church. We DO give back most of what we receive, if anything. We DO move from location to location every few years that cost thousands of dollars. We DO go to conferences which absolutely add up. It is not bitterness to refute false statements. When my wife read that on his blog all she could do is cry and she was looking for a way to refute the things she read on here.
That is all for now.
Bro. Bellamy
We need to put our heads together and dig a bit on this Nunez real estate transaction. This is going to be a big ol can of worms
ReplyDeleteTB
Bellamy said - "We DO pad the offering with our own money..."
ReplyDeleteYes that would be so that they can make at most $500 for that week, not to include any RV park expenses, meals or clothes and gifts that you/your church would like to pick up for them. So $700-$800 tax free in cash? It would be really interesting to find out more about how much they make per year as a salary from NTCC and about the corporate credit cards that they use.
Bellamy must be related to Briggs, they don't care what anyone says and they'll defend those double standards till they're blue in the face...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteKeep out that root of bitterness, by which MANY ARE DEFILED!!
You can choose to no longer be a part of something without having a root of bitterness and without being bitter. You can end a relationship with a friend without being bitter. You can chose to work a new job and find one that suits you better and it not have single thing to do with bitterness.
When I left New Testament Christian churches of America Inc. I was not bitter. Honestly I was a little hurt but I was not bitter. That scripture about they who love the Lord nothing shall offend them has always been taken out of context. We are not gods we can not forget pain that others cause us and cast it into the deepest sea to remember it no more. Jesus can do that but I can not.
Once you hurt me it is forever in my memory. If you repent (Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him)That means (change) I will do everything I can to forgive you but if you say you are sorry then keep treating me the same way how could I not fell sorrow or grief from it and want to be a little distant. In N.T.C.C. I don't remember being taught (please correct me if I am wrong) emotional and relationship boundaries. I want to love myself therefore I want to be around people who lift me up not tear me down this has nothing to do with bitterness. Jesus wants me for a sunbeam not a doormat LOL.
Sincerely Shonda Cannon
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBellamy must be related to Briggs, they don't care what anyone says and they'll defend those double standards till they're blue in the face...
Jeff said...
I'm being sincere. Am I missing something? I don't see where Pastor Bellamy defended the NTCC. What he said wasn't too complimentary on the NTCC behalf in my opinion. If I missed something please feel free to respond.
Jeff
For TB's and Mark's investigation - Alex F Nunez' former phone number for that house was (623)934-8245. They were/are living at 6025 West Seldon Lane, Glendale, AZ 85302 which is around the corner from the property that RWD bought.
ReplyDeleteJeff, you didn't miss anything. I wasn't defending NTCC. I was explaining that what Rev. Kekel said was false, and what the other anonymous wrote missed the point. I hope that is plain enough.
ReplyDeleteI have given far too much time and thousands and thousands of dollars to NTCC (as unto the Lord with no regrets)for anyone to say that I spent it on toys and other stuff!!!
But why did the person post as anonymous? I am using my name. I refuse to go back and forth; if you didn't get it now you never will.
Bro. Bellamy
"The fact is that Rev. Kekel stated in his blog and at Spring Conference 2010 that a danger that preacher's face when getting older is they abandon the ministry for secular careers, because they have not saved in their youth; they bought toys and other things and now as they get towards retirement age they must get out of God's will to prepare.
ReplyDeleteWe DO NOT buy toys and other things. We DO pay most of the expenses for the church. We DO go in debt for the church. We DO give back most of what we receive, if anything. We DO move from location to location every few years that cost thousands of dollars."
We did all that too, for years and years, and so have many others. RW would get up and bloviate "you don't have money because you spent it all." No shock, Sherlock, we spent it in just the ways that Bro. Bellamy has enumerated. There was no money for "toys" (even for our kids, who were bigger victims than we were). Mike Kekel's nest has been feathered ever since he hooked up with Tanya, and it's pretty brazen for him to act like he's some kind of authority on ministerial deprivation and the reasons for it. Any pioneer worker knows a hundred times more about it than he does, ensconced in his McMansion and surrounded by ill-gotten wealth.
We didn't have any money because we trusted people whom in the end turned out to be nothing more than swindlers and con artists. It's a cold slap in the face when you learn that the people you loved and esteemed (and obeyed) for years on end secretly indulged in the very things they induced you to sacrifice for "God."
Bellamy my friend, do yourself a favor and beat feet out of there. Especially if you have kids. You won't regret it for even one nanosecond.
Edward said, “When my wife read that on his blog all she could do is cry and she was looking for a way to refute the things she read on here.”
ReplyDeleteWhen I was still in NTCC, reading MCK's blog was more troubling to my heart than what anyone who left was saying. Ordinary ministers and their wives are disdained, though they sacrificially give all they are and all they have to God. This same attitude was displayed from the pulpit in Graham when we returned from Guam in October. The negative undertones and harshness in much of what is shared are very strong sentiments.
We didn't leave over money, jealousy, bitterness, or any such thing. We left because our spirits were crushed and our hearts were broken. We knew we had to start fresh in God, and that our very salvation depended on it.
People can talk trash about us if they like, but you can't touch this. ;-) It's actually been a very smooth transition, and I could write volumes of how the Lord has worked on our behalf. That's what my blog is all about. There is a life in God outside of NTCC, and it is more full than you can even imagine.
Don't feel sorry for us. We’re happier now than we’ve been in many years, just walking in the grace of God, and with NTCC in our rearview mirror, the future looks bright.
Debbie R.
That might be the same Alex Nunez at 12746 West Peoria Avenue, El Mirage, AZ 85335.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.maricopa.gov/Assessor/ParcelApplication/Detail.aspx?ID=501-44-066-B
There is a place in God where the wicked ones (NTCC) cannot touch you. Bellamy needs to "come on over, to the winning side..." Go ahead Sis Shunk...
ReplyDeleteits funny how they go about calling everyone bitter who has left. spewing falsehoods and lies about people who cannot defend themselves is a perfect illustration of bitter actions.
ReplyDeleteThem having to eat crow is bitter...
ReplyDelete"Bellamy must be related to Briggs, they don't care what anyone says and they'll defend those double standards till they're blue in the face..."
ReplyDeletedumb dumbs will just say anything against someone just because they are an ntccer
I honestly used to get very discouraged by the things I read on Rev. Kekels blog also. In all sincerity I stopped reading my Bible school notes a long time ago. Someone told me that when you are lonely notes are your fellowship.
ReplyDeleteI would read my notes and get super depressed and never feel like I could measure up and after several times of my husband coming home to my sobbing he told me to stop reading them LOL. Its funny now but it wasn't then. Things got a whole lot easier for me when I just began leaning on my Bible and not my Bible and my notes.
I was also very discouraged about the thing about ministers finances on Rev. Kekels Blog Rev. Bellamy as your wife was. There were many times we told the men of God we did not want to go to conferences because we did not have the money but we were told not to loose faith and to keep praying and so many were put on the credit card.
There was a time our conference was paid for by Rev. Kekel which was very kind but all those other times financially put us in the hole along with carrying much of the financial burden with a pioneer church and many other factors. Its like we are expected to spin straw into gold how can we save something when there is nothing to save. My husband and I did not live a lavish lifestyle and ate a lot of rice and staples to stretch meals yet it seemed impossible to ever be able to pay for a conference in cash with the pioneer work and all. It worked in Graham before we were in the ministry but was too much to carry with all the other church fiances.
Shonda
Anon said: "So $700-$800 tax free in cash? It would be really interesting to find out more about how much they make per year as a salary from NTCC and about the corporate credit cards that they use."
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly, RWD had Michael stand in the Phoenix conference a few years ago, and share that the overseers make $650 per week from the org on top of what they "rake", I mean make from the local churches. We were told this amount did not include expenses.
M D Reed
MDR said....
ReplyDeleteoverseers make $650 per week
Jeff said...
If your recollection is correct MDR, that is a pretty weak salary. Of course 150 a week is worse but I don't base my earning potential off of folks who live below the understood U.S. poverty level. That is only $2600 a month. Of course they get money from the local churches and I wouldn't begin to know how much that amounts to. Local church money isn't coming out of the Org's pocket. What's coming out of the Org's pocket if it really is $650 a week is pretty weak; pun intended. Good grief, the NTCC leaders are a bunch of cheap skates. $2600 dollars a month? I'd go bankrupt.
That would work if I lived in an outhouse while maintaining only liability on the cheapest cars that I could buy. You know there is nothing wrong with being able to go to the grocery store and put whatever you want in the cart and not have to worry about where the money is going to come from. My family does it.
Do you think RWD and Kekel worry about that kind of stuff? Do you believe that you deserve less than them? Do your children deserve less than the Kekels son? Well do something about it and stop giving the NTCC your money.
If you are a pastor, your tithe money should stay in your own church. RWD is a pastor and his money stays in his own church? What is the difference? He is your pastor? Please. I'd be interested in finding out how much pastoral guidance you've received from him lately?
If you are an NTCC pastor your tithe money should stay in your church and you should have exclusive control over all of it. Show me in the Bible where it says that one pastor has to pay tithe to another pastor? If so when is the last time that RWD paid you tithe? Just because he says that he is everyone's pastor doesn't make him everyone's pastor. Ok, I'm everyone's pastor. Start sending me your tithe money. Unlike RWD, when I invest it I'll give you a good cut. We'll both get rich together off of your money instead of just RWD and Kekel getting rich off of your money.
What do you think? Does that sound like a good plan?
Jeff
no need to try and defend ntcc.
ReplyDeletethere is a life in God outside of NTCC.
besides, much of what is spoken of is true.
Jesus said your sin will find you out.
NTCC's sin is being found out.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteNTCC's sin is being found out.
Jeff said...
Now it's up to the remnant to face the facts and realize that the grass is greener on the other side. You know why? Because it is; way greener. I know what many people are thinking because I've heard it many times from people who are still in.
They say, "Well, there are no perfect churches out there so why not just stay where I'm at?" The difference is, most other churches aren't keeping you broke, in a broke down car, in a broke up family with a broken will.
The NTCC is bondage. Either igmore your conscience, buy off on RWD's and Mike Kekel's crazy rules and statements or buck the system and be blacklisted. Buddy that is bondage in my book. What did Jesus say, "If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall in the ditch".
Jeff
Alex and Betty Nunez did a quit claim deed to their son Alex Jr. for the property 6025 West Seldon Lane, Glendale, AZ 85302.
ReplyDeletehttp://recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata/GetRecDataDetail.aspx?rec=20020819516&suf=
The parents live in the El Mirage adddress.
MDR said... "If I remember correctly, RWD had Michael stand in the Phoenix conference a few years ago, and share that the overseers make $650 per week from the org on top of what they "rake", I mean make from the local churches. We were told this amount did not include expenses."
ReplyDeleteSo they might make $650 per week in a "stipend" to take advantage of tax loophole terminology, turn in their expenses with their receipts from using their credit cards and can make $500 per week plus have expenses taken care of when they visit churches. They try to line up several in a row if they can. Don't forget that they probably live rent free if they live in an NTCC home and have someone look after their house while they're gone. So if you didn't have to live rent free and had someone pay for your expenses would you be doing alot better financially?
http://www.startchurch.com/blog/view/name/what-is-taxable-income-for-a-minister
"If your recollection is correct MDR, that is a pretty weak salary."
ReplyDeleteThe funny thing is that, even without all the extra perks they're lapping up, it looks like fabulous riches to the rank and file. I'm sure RW keeps those guys on a tight leash, but for the regular BS student or minister, the opportunities to make a decent living are severely curtailed by the various rules and restrictions imposed upon them. These elites, however, are able to drum up all kinds of income on the side. Did someone mention that Jim Johnson sells insurance? I heard that Phil Kinson sells mattresses, and we know that Eli Gesang has what appears to be a thriving chameleon business (being in the org bestows plenty of expertise on that subject). No doubt there is all kinds of other entrepreneurial stuff going on, but if any of the serfs try to do likewise, the hammer will come down pronto.
Only the royal lineage has recourse to certain privileges. The rest are on their own.
MDR said..."overseers make $650 per week"
ReplyDeleteGranting this, they also get the offering (cash) at every church they visit (up to $500/week), free food and free lodging (to them) once they get to most churches, and other offerings (perks) in the form of suits, gasoline, etc.
According to the most recent available bylaws they also get a gas card, vehicle (if they want it, and if approved), and 30 days of paid vacation per year. The bylaws additionally state “At the expiration of his term of office, he shall accept the title of the car along with all financial obligations.”
When they are on the road, they still have to pay rent/mortgage (maybe), but the utilities will be minimal, out of pocket food expense will be minimal, no internet, cable bill, etc.
If no federal taxes are being paid on their income, you have to add about 30% to its real value.
Addition math problem:
$2600 per month overseer salary.
$1000 (or more) per month offerings from churches they visit.
$1080 per month savings on taxes.
$500 per month savings on utilities, food, internet, cable.
Added together this yields a ‘real’ value of $5180. Not too shabby.
But, one also may want to consider the financial benefit of not having to regularly quit jobs, pay to get to bi-annual conferences, and move every couple of years.
Plus, this doesn’t factor in any ‘cut’ they may get from conferences, the church in Graham, special ‘bonuses’ from HQ, private offerings from the church members of churches they visit (you know, slip the man of God an envelope with money in it), etc.
So we may be talking upwards of $6,000 per month tax free.
Did I miss anything?
Gregory
"Did I miss anything?"
ReplyDeleteSelling insurance, mattresses, and chameleons.
Are Alex and Betty Nunez affiliated with NTCC? It would be a real shame if they scammed their parents out of there home and willed it to that crook Rodger! I am not sure what is going on there, but I know it is not a good thing, RW is and always will be a crook, now he is just stealing for his off-spring, which means they have knowledge and they are accomplices to all his crimes against God and man. Kekel is worse in my opinion, he is just the ntcc version of Joel Osteen, RW scowls while he steals you blind, Kekel smiles while he takes the rest.
ReplyDeleteTB
That whole Nunez deal did seem questionable. RWD is always trying to take advantage of people. Why would you give a house away? I talked to someone who said they knew a Nunez who was in the NTCC many years ago. Who knows. The whole thing did seem quite suspicious but it could be on the up and up.
ReplyDeleteWith RWD I doubt it. RWD may have gotten it fixed up. He is such a swindler.
Jeff
Jeff said, "RWD is always trying to take advantage of people."
ReplyDeleteJeff, that is so true. I witnessed and experienced this many, many times while around RWD. I was manipulated to purchase numerous guns and watches for him, because he would make it known he'd like to have such and such. And then when you leave the org, your giving is discounted, and you're called a manpleaser. Some of his "leaders" do the same thing. Once again, I am a witness, and they know it's true.
Debbie Shunk said it this way on her blog, "Since we were young and impressionable he could merely suggest something and we'd all comply. He'd say I'd like to have this, and how many husbands would rush out and buy it for him? He himself said he stopped saying he liked this or that, cause he knew the next day someone would buy it for him. Everyone wanted to please him, isn't this what we were taught, to take care of the man of God?"
A couple of years ago, RWD kept telling me that he would like to have an Uncle Henry .44 Mag. He called me on the phone, said it twice to me during a conference, and mentioned it once more when he visited my work. He knew I was the one who came through for him in the past. Then the final call came..."Reed, I'm coming to your place in two weeks." It just happened to be his birthday that weekend. Well, that was the clarion call for the Henry rifle. Because it was so expensive, I made some calls and I think 6 or 7 ministers put in some cash and we bought the Henry rifle for him as a birthday gift.
He once more tried to manipulate the purchase of a shotgun from me for guess what?...His new home in AZ. He put his arm around me in the church foyer in Graham this past December, and told me, I was looking out the windows of my new home in AZ and thought, I need a shotgun. I said, Yes, sir, you sure do, and walked away. A couple of weeks later, I really did walk away! Bye bye mashita! That's a little Japanese slango there for ya.
Just for the record, if I'm such a manpleaser, he knows where I live and he can give them all back to me (except the Henry which others paid for too). RWD doesn't have to spend his money on toys. He has others to do that for him, Michael. ;-)
M D Reed
MDR said...
ReplyDeleteRWD doesn't have to spend his money on toys
Jeff said...
That is such a shame. He has so much money yet he still tries to manipulate people into into buying him gifts. You know if I were a millionaire like him, I wouldn't even let people buy me stuff. If they did anyway, I'd pay them for it. Especially knowing that many of them are essentially broke. Guns are expensive. He is such a swindler. According to the Bible that I've read, there ain't no way that dude is on the way to heaven. He is too much of a crook. He can't possibly repent because he doesn't change.
He just uses people.
Jeff
well here it is--- http://darwindurek.blogspot.com/2011/05/arizoner-house-rw.html
ReplyDeleteRW's (area of his) winter home! ha ha
This was done many times when Rick and I were married. He would say I like something and there'd go Rick and buy it. You all remember the gray Cadillac bought for him while we were in St. Louis. The church members gave pledges to help pay for this car. Many of them barely had enough money to give, but they gave. Ron & Margie Denis were really good at this. She'd say can you get this hair product for me. It wasn't cheap, and we certainly didn't have it in the church funds to buy it. Eventually she quit mentioning stuff. They'd say I'll pay you when you get it. But when you do buy it, how can you ask them for the money? It puts you in an awkward position. You end up saying "we got it" when you don't really have it to spend. So so sad!
ReplyDeleteI also would like to add my 2 cents worth. What on earth is Mike talking about buying toys?? What toys is he talking about, he and Rev. Davis and others who never moved every 2 yrs have all the toys. They proudly show them off, to let you know how the Lord is blessing.
Let's see... one of our toys was a old white van we bought from Rev. Johnson for $400.00. We had to junk it, because when we were driving down Meridian the steering wheel came off. Then, we were blessed with our 2nd toy and bought a van from Bro. Pugh. It wasn't new, but the price was right and it ran great. Mike Kekel continues to insult your intelligence how long are you going to sit under this arrogant blowhard?
Deborah Shunk a.k.a Sis. Blumenthal
I wanted to correct a statement. The van was in Rev. Johnson's possession. We bought the van from him.
ReplyDeleteDeborah Shunk aka Sis. Blumenthal
RWD manipulating people to buy things for him!!! Not the man of gawd. Hearing that, I really lost a lot of respect for him (the little I had left). I wonder how many in NTCC have done the same thing trying to get some praise from him. People in NTCC do you hear this!!!! I’m sure Jesus would act just like RWD. Not!!
ReplyDeleteHey Deborah,
ReplyDeleteGood to see you're on here. Love you, and will talk with you soon.
Happy Mother's day...Oh, wait, we never had any children together.
I know it's not the same, but I'll be your baby.
Gregory
Mike Kekel is the one with all the toys. He has spent more money on toys than most NTCC ministers ever make. I've heard of his excessive guitar collection. This is what you NTCCers are paying for. The guitars, his fancy furniture and his nice old Mercedes Benz. You know the one that people buy just because they like to collect old cars. His lifestyle is that of excess, well at least according everything we'd ever been taught. Cars like the one Kekel has were called "SELF" cars and I heard it said plainly.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing. I talked to another guy who attended Bible school with Kekel. The guy basically said that he didn't deal with Kekel. The guy was saying that from a Christian/righteousness standpoint, Kekel was trouble. The impression that I got from the conversation was that Kekel was a free will who always broke the rules. Things are very clear now.
Kekel is like a patient terrorist who doesn't mind waiting to make his explosion. He never liked RWD's rules but he's been patient because he knows that eventually he can change them and he's making headway as we speak. I will just about guarantee that Kinson was part of his plan.
When Kinson was in Columbus I told him that I "used" to play golf. Somehow Kinson brought up the topic golf in the conversation. He suggested that I start playing again because it would be such good enjoyment and entertainment. I thought it was strange that he would suggest such a thing because a round of golf takes virtually all day and couldn't that time be more effectively spent soul winning or quote "doing something for God"? That is what we'd always been taught. We'd been taught that chasing a little white ball around was a waste of the time that the Lord has given us.
Well I understand now. Kinson and Kekel are very calculative. They want all the benefits (money) that come along with being big cheese in the NTCC but they don't want the holiness. They want the things of this world like golf, toys and all the rest plus, they want to be the big cheese, without all that holiness mess that RWD has been belching out for years. Kinson and Kekel are a couple slick ones. They are real smooth about the way they're turning the NTCC into a regular contemporary Christian church. Singing at the mall, kids playing sports, secular college. Oh yeah, the NTCC is definitely changing big time and just wait till RWD kicks the BUCKET. Kekel has already said that he is not the one who came up with all the rules. He threw RWD under the bus with that statement.
Jeff
Jeff, we spent three months listening to MCK and others in Graham recently. If Christ is preached, it's great, but there is so much venom and spiritual toxin woven within the messages, that it is spiritually unedifying. People sit there quietly as the rants go on and on. You can feel the heaviness of spirit. Then people walk out and say, wow, what a great service, but they feel like worms on the inside.
ReplyDeleteThough NTCC, Inc., may not be preaching against TV, sports, outward appearance, etc. as "holiness" any more, the delivery style is still "in your face", sometimes literally. Just ask me. Poor Matthew is still traumatized over what MCK did to me in the presence of so many people that night in the foyer. ;-) I thank God Matt didn't see it when it happened, but he still is very troubled when he thinks about it.
A few years ago, Matt went to RWD after being called out by name in a conference, and told him he didn't want to be known as a drill sergeant, and he began to work on himself as a preacher. When we returned to Graham in October, it was the same bitterness and harshness as always from the pulpit, and by this time Matt really had changed. Ask any of those people in Guam, and they'll tell you he is a true preacher of grace. Ask the people at Tillicum church where he preached before we left. Grace prevails. He's not the clone of RWD that he used to be, and that essentially is why we had to separate ourselves. To maintain our new grace walk, we had to start fresh. And yes, he has apologized to many people where it is possible.
NTCC, Inc., will never become a "regular contemporary Christian church", as long as they continue to psychologically manipulate God's sheep and treat them in an un-Christlike manner, period. The superficial changes are only about appearances, but nothing has changed in their hearts.
How many educated or professional people do they have out there over the age of 25 who stay for the long haul? That is very telling. NTCC, Inc. blames the devil and the bloggers on the internet for all the people leaving their ranks, but they need to look in the mirror and see that they need a real revelation of grace inwardly and then it will show outwardly, and I'm not taking about skirts and hair.
Why is there now only one service in Graham on Sunday mornings, and it's half empty? Maybe it's time for a change, and the Gospel of the grace of the Cross needs to really take hold, not mingled with law and works. That's all.
Debbie R. said...
ReplyDelete"Maybe it's time for a change, and the Gospel of the grace of the Cross needs to really take hold, not mingled with law and works."
Sister that is exactly what God has been dealing with me about. It seems like NTCC has taught us more about proving that we are saved by our works than just the simplicity of the gospel of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
They say, if you are saved then you will do this or that.
The word of God says that I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ not of works...
I am not taking away from living a righteous life, but it isn't the bondage that NTCC has taught us for so many years.
I know this sounds like I am not a part of NTCC...
And the way things are shaping up I will not be.
It seems every year more and more the preaching is out of anger and not God's love. They don't understand that it is they who are running people away and not sin.
People want to be loved and cared about not beaten down.
Bro. Bellamy
As I said in my last post; they are the ones that are running people away and not sin.
ReplyDeleteLove covers a multitude of sin and I have been willing to overlook many of the double standards that are apparent. But when I realized that they do not love or care about me and others that have been loyal to God and them for many years then it was time to rethink being a part of NTCC.
I recently shared with them a battle that I was facing and even requested to be replaced. In the end I was told that I would be the one that had to make up in my mind to defeat it. (I already knew that, I just wanted someone to be concerned and care.) There was no love at all and I emailed them to let them know that I felt like they didn't care and they called me back and gave what I took to be a threat of exposure.
When I realized that they did not care or love us I became very frightened; if my leaders did not love me then how could I get the victory over what I was facing? Jesus dealt with me about depending on him and his grace and not NTCC or working to prove my salvation.
And guess what? I have had the victory ever since. It is his Grace that saves us and keeps us saved!!!
I hope I haven't been too personal.
Bro. Bellamy
Way to go Bro. Bellamy. The Holy Spirit is bearing witness with our spirit concerning your last two posts. What's most alarming about ntcc is that no matter how much we love them, there is no reciprocation. They just don't love us back. Countless others have gone through the process you just described and reached the same conclusion. Not to worry, God's grace is sufficient for us!
ReplyDeleteBro. Belemy,
ReplyDeleteThe sad thing is that in ntcc, the top leaders will probably think it's funny that we are looking for love. My bible says God is love. It also clearly teaches that without love you have nothing.
Dear Brother Bellamy
ReplyDeleteI am really so thankful that God is dealing with your heart about not being saved by works anymore. I had a really hard time of letting go of not being saved by works, the crazy thing is since I have let go of that I have had virtually not even a tenth of the battles I used to have. I used to get into battles all the time because I felt like I was never good enough or could never give enough even though I had already given all I had.
Now it is so sweet to just trust in Jesus I know I need to trust him more but now it is him that is shaping his will for my life and not an organization. God Began to deal with me about 3 years ago someone wrote something to me online that totally blew my mind and cut like a knife. (I was like God that is not me! I am not that person am I) I was giving my opinion about a gospel song I did not particularly care calling it wordy and fleshly and someone wrote to me (IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO CHASE PEOPLE AWAY FROM CHRIST) I thought I was the last person to be like this it hurt so bad I was in tears I wrote a note to the individual and apologized then deleted my comment.
I began to pray that God really show me himself and show me who I was an when I looked at myself in the mirror of Gods word I hated what I saw. I started to dare myself to look into the things I had been taught that line I always thought I would be going to hell if I crossed but when I crossed it I found peace and liberty instead of condemnation. I began to look at other differently and judge other Christians outside of our ranks differently and wow I had a giant family overnight it was and is glorious.
I used to share some of the same words you just mentioned with others when they would ask me about Seventh day Adventists or Mormons or such like. (They say, if you are saved then you will do this or that I would tell them. Then one day I realized I was absolutely no different! We wait for them to (get in) then we start telling the women they shouldn't work based on 1950 history with one single word in the Bible to help support it, that if they wear makeup or earrings there like Jezebel or have vanity issues. And if they cut their hair they will be putting their soul in danger. How is this any more kooky than telling someone they can't eat meat or have the mark of the Beast if they go to church on Sunday?
I used to think well the ones who are saved are the ones who never really hit the rock but I am beginning to see it differently now of course maybe we left because we (are) saved and we want to be true to God and ourselves and not live a life of falsehood and be vessels condemnation but vessels of grace as God intended.
You become what you believe and I did not like what I was becoming and am so thankful my eyes were opened to the truth.
Lord Bless your on your Journey Sir. We can be reached at shondarcannon@gmail.com or dvsrcannon@gmail.com.
I will put you on my prayer list on the fridge and endeavor to pray for you this can be a hard process. It can feel like someone is ripping off one of our limbs emotionally because the NTCC way has been a part of us so long. But it is a limb that God ultimately does not want us to have.
Shonda Cannon
Jesus said that if your eye offend you, to pluck it out because it was better to go into heaven with one eye that to hell with two. He said the same thing about your hands and we understand that he was speaking metaphorically, but he was still calling for some radical change in our thinking. We used to look at people with eyes of criticism and everything we touched was tainted with serving God for something in return or to be approved by others, but we need to cut that off and enter into grace and peace. We missed everything when we began in the Spirit and now try to live for God by the flesh. Seek the greatest thing needed - charity (love).
ReplyDeleteto Anonymous
ReplyDeleteAmen :)
Edward said...
ReplyDeleteI recently shared with them a battle that I was facing and even requested to be replaced. In the end I was told that I would be the one that had to make up in my mind to defeat it.
Jeff said...
Even though I know you're not concerned with the NTCC leadership's inevitable attack on your character, you can be certain that it will come. If and when you ever leave the NTCC, the NTCC leadership will likely say the reason you left is because you were caught up in sin.
It is sad to say but one of the biggest mistakes that NTCC pastors and church members make is telling the NTCC leadership their business. The NTCC leadership routinely uses such information against them. They say, "this brother was caught up in sin". "That sister didn't love God". "That brother didn't want to serve God any longer.".
They not only don't help you when you share your problems but they use it against you.
Edward said...
There was no love at all and I emailed them to let them know that I felt like they didn't care and they called me back and gave what I took to be a threat of exposure.
Jeff said...
WOW! That is so sad. Those guys are low down. The best thing you can do if you do leave is change your phone number and just walk out. I don't know the circumstances surrounding your battle and I don't want to know, but I wouldn't want them throwing it back in your face or the face of your family. Because of this, I'd make sure they had no way to contact me or my family. They can get pretty dirty when someone leaves their organization so you wouldn't want them saying or doing something that could cause family problems.
Just something to think about.
Jeff
Edward,
ReplyDeletethe ntcc so called leadership does not support there ministers. They toss them out as lambs to the slaughter. When got sent to MN. Which it felt like a missionary work. Very FEW vistors from Washington,no helpers. I had to call Tanya!! You would think this is a pioneer work. New preacher. He is going to need some guidance,answer to his questions,a helper. When we called to ask questions on certain aspects like soulwinning with kids. We were told to pray about it. NO SUPPORT,No GUIDANCE!
Then when we left ntcc. I started asking those questions I had held in for sooo long. Even said it was lonely in MN. That we had no one there for us. You get the double talk out of Mike K. mouth.The politician in him. He said,we are always here for you. A phone call away! yeah right!
There only out for themselves! Does not matter who they hurt along the way. There Worse then a bussiness man. Because MOST bosses will take care of there employees. Not ntcc. They know more suckers will come along and fill that spot once the FOG has lifted. Edward I think that FOG is lifting for you. When your eyes are opened to the truth behind the curtain!!
You will come to realize if you decide to leave ntcc and continue to serve God. it is so much sweeter then it ever was in ntcc. It is just YOU and GOD! No man in the middle of the mix!
April
"But when I realized that they do not love or care about me and others that have been loyal to God and them for many years then it was time to rethink being a part of NTCC."
ReplyDeleteThis is key. I didn't realize the extent of it until I left, actually. Even though they were roasting me in every service, I never dreamed they didn't love or care for me; I thought the just misunderstood. I determined in my heart not to sneak out at midnight (although I certainly understand and don't condemn those who have), and after the last service (which was particularly vicious and mostly aimed between my eyes), I met RW at the door and told him I was leaving. His reaction astonished me. Despite all the obvious signs to the contrary, I still harbored the illusion that he cared; I expected he would say something like "hold on, brother, let's talk about it before you make a rash decision." But before he even said anything, the look on his face was all I needed to know. It was a combination of scorn, anger, rejection, disdain, irritation, and loathing. His voice had the same inflection, and all he said was a gruff and accusatory "OK," and just dismissed me from his life like one would flick a gnat from his nose. It was staggering. On one hand, I was crushed. I couldn't believe that this man, who had demanded and received a role in my life beyond all rational proportion, and who had induced me to reject my own natural family in favor of him, could be so cold and callous after I had poured my life--money, time, energy, absolute loyalty--into his program for sixteen years. But mingled with that was an incredible joy and the affirmation that the decision I had made was absolutely correct. The scales came off my eyes right then and there, and I had such a rush of euphoria that I couldn't stop laughing aloud on the way home.
My life improved a million fold from that moment on. I was like I was born again--again! Truth is power.
The bottom line is that these leaders don't care for anything except their money and power.
"A few years ago, Matt went to RWD after being called out by name in a conference, and told him he didn't want to be known as a drill sergeant, and he began to work on himself as a preacher."
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to hear this. I didn't really know Matt well, but always had the impression of him as a real hardass. Of course, in NTCC, many of us distorted our true characters in a misguided attempt to do what the "man of God" (who misrepresented himself as the voice of God) told us was right.
It's always pleasant to dismiss a negative opinion of someone. I wish I could dismiss the negative opinions I have about the org leadership, but that can't happen until they change drastically.
I didn't mean to post the last entry anonymously. Yay Matt; freedom from bondage!
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your concern, but there is no need. My wife and I are very close. She is a part of me and we share everything.
She is also another part of what has brought all of this to a head.
The Lord is working it out step by step.
As I said God had already been dealing with me to rest in his grace. For several days my wife had been depressed. She finally opened up to me and said she was sad because she didn't think that she was doing what God wanted her to do.
I became upset and asked her what does she mean? I reminded her of the lady that she saw walking in the cold with her children to school. When she found out that she didn't live far from us, she begin to pick the lady's children up for school. I told her that God wants her to love people and that is exactly what she is doing. You would be amazed at how good that made her feel. She understood that Jesus wants us to love people and all that other stuff is manmade.
There are so many opportunities to love people that we don't even have to go looking for them. The Good Samaritan wasn't looking to help the man. The opportuinity arose and he did what was in his heart. That is not hard, complicated, or anything we have to work up.
That lady has not been to church nor do my wife preach to her, but you know what? God blessed the lady with a job, and she paid her tithe without anyone mentioning it to her.
And you are correct. I don't care about being blacklisted. I am already black (just a little joke)
I just want to be the Christian God has called me to be. Everything else will take care of itself.
I would like to thank everyone for their prayers and support. The greatest commandment is to love God and people, and if we do that then God is pleased.
Bro. Bellamy
That lady has not been to church nor do my wife preach to her, but you know what? God blessed the lady with a job, and she paid her tithe without anyone mentioning it to her.
ReplyDeletefrom Edward.
If you do leave ntcc. You might want to dig and really research what you think are biblical truths. that have been shared by ntcc. Because many,many of them are not biblical. Actually the opposite. I see them as false teachers! That have led many,many people astray as they have twisted Gods word for there own purpose!
As I have stated many times, I don't want to go back and forth.
ReplyDeleteI understand that some may not believe in tithe, but regardless of what title we put on it, we never go wrong giving as unto the Lord. It is not a burden but a blessing. I love giving. I give tips a lot of times even when I have bad service. I got saved when I was 16 years old and began to preach a few weeks after that for Freewill Baptist Church. I didn't know what I was doing or what to say, but the title was, "God Loves you." And that is exactly what I want to show every man, woman, boy, and girl. I am 38 years old now and he still loves us!!!
I gave the example of the lady, because love was shown and she just wanted to show love back.
Bro. Bellamy
Whoa Major Typo
ReplyDeleteI wrote this and meant to write
I used to think well the ones who are saved are the ones who never really hit the rock
this
I used to think well the ones who left are the ones who never really hit the rock.
Edward said...
ReplyDeleteI gave the example of the lady, because love was shown and she just wanted to show love back.
Jeff said...
I see nothing wrong with that at all. It wasn't like you and your wife were cramming "giving" down the lady's throat. I guess she felt that God had blessed her and she wanted to give back to God and that was her way of doing it.
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
Jeff said...
It seems to me that she was giving as "she" had purposed in "her" heart. Once again, I see no problem with that at all.
I don't blame you at all Bro. Bellamy for not wanting to get into a doctrinal debate. Your statement was a simple statement illustrating your experience and there shouldn't be any debate about doctrine because of that.
Jeff
You get told that you shouldn't even deal with certain people that are in a certain social standing or are from one side of the tracks. Later on you begin to notice that it is more about what they can do for you and your church that dictates who you would invite or would do nice things for. All the while, God deals with you about the way that you have treated people and how you were taught to view people. May God continue to open eyes...
ReplyDeleteEdward said, I just want to be the Christian God has called me to be. Everything else will take care of itself.
ReplyDeleteThis is my desire too, and found I was unable to do that within the confines and rules of the ntcc. Sad but true.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThis is my desire too, and found I was unable to do that within the confines and rules of the ntcc. Sad but true.
Jeff said...
Yeah, that would be a sad thing to live life following all the NTCC's mandates just to be wrong with God the whole time. Life is too short for that.
Jeff
Jeff thank you for your blog and letting people tell their stories here without fear.
ReplyDeleteShonda Cannon said, "I used to think well the ones who left are the ones who never really hit the rock."
ReplyDeleteThis is true, but that's what anyone who attends ntcc for any length of time is conditioned to believe. It's a tangled web of screwed up teachings and psychological games that I'm glad to be free from.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteJeff thank you for your blog.
Jeff said...
Thank you. I see it as my duty. If it helps people, (which I know it does) then it's all worth it. I think about these young soldiers that throw away perfectly good military careers just to wind up following a bunch of bogus rules at the NTCS. I feel for them and so do many others here. Don and Ange have a heart for the abused. If we can help people come to grips with their true feelings, they can make up for lost time and opportunities by getting a fresh start as soon as possible.
Life truly is better outside the NTCC for spiritual reasons as well as earthly. Hey you've got to live on this earth so why not make the most of it. Do you think God expects us to be miserable? Does misery equate to salvation? Does misery purchase salvation? Only the blood of Jesus can purchase your salvation, not the misery and abuse the NTCC leadership puts you through. Folks what they do is not Godly.
Jeff
If you do not have something as simple as love in your church what makes you different than the bar down the street?
ReplyDeletemy church left me in my hour of need.they offered no support, no phone call, and most likely no prayer. when i relayed this truth to an ntcc minister he told me to stop feeling sorry for myself.
ReplyDeletentcc has a culture of coldness!
ReplyDeleteQ: If you do not have something as simple as love in your church what makes you different than the bar down the street?
ReplyDeleteA: At least at the bar you can get a buzz on and someone will listen to your problem with a sympathetic ear. They would probably be quicker to help too!
ntcc sucks
April said, "I had to call Tanya!! You would think this is a pioneer work. New preacher. He is going to need some guidance,answer to his questions,a helper. When we called to ask questions on certain aspects like soulwinning with kids. We were told to pray about it. NO SUPPORT,No GUIDANCE!"
ReplyDeleteReally, what advice could tanya give anyone? How to shop for expensive useless crap? She's never even gone soulwinning. She definitely has not gone soulwinning with kids!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletentcc has a culture of coldness!
Jeff said...
You better believe it.
Jeff
Vic said, "I'm glad to hear this. I didn't really know Matt well, but always had the impression of him as a real hardass.
ReplyDeleteYay Matt; freedom from bondage!"
Hey Vic! I was all that and a bag chips! I guess what I'm saying is there's hope for every man.
You may not know it, but I followed your posts on factnet for a long time. I really enjoyed your story of the treatment you received from Rdub when he found out that you had the "sinnernet" I mean internet, because we know that only peeedophiles and pornographers have the internet, at least that is what he was saying back then! ;-) The way you dealt with that was so funny. What RWD didn't know was I had the internet at that time, and I wonder how many others did too?
Good to hear from ya!
Basking in the blessings of God!
M D Reed
Well ANON. Calling Tanya was all I had for help,support,ect at the time. And when I said I had to call. I was getting at,that she could have been calling me. As she did call her "pet" ladies out in works. They were her buddies. We had only the folks in ntcc to talk to. Didn't have much of a choice.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct,she had no experience whatsoever to base her answer on. Maybe why she didn't call in the first place!lol True story. When we got to WA I had a newborn baby. She hit the terrible two stage. I thought to ask Tanya a parenting question. I have a strong willed DD. I remember her telling me to use a wooden spoon to spank her with. I know I spank way more then I have with my son. I often feel bad for somethings I put my DD through. All that sitting at those stupid conferences,making her wait to go to the bathroom. So I did not interrupt RW davis in his stupid teaching time.
Crazy hoops that we jumped through while in ntcc!
April
April said: I remember her telling me to use a wooden spoon to spank her with.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Tanya needed to get more spankings with a wooden spoon. She wouldn't be such a spoiled brat if she had. RDUB could use a few wooden spoons upside his head. Then he wouldn't be such a spoiled brat and neither would Tanya. That would have fixed the whole problem from the start.
Anon said, "it's a tangled web of screwed up teachings and psychological games that I'm glad to be free from."
ReplyDeleteWell said, Anon. When I decided that enough was enough, I picked up the phone and made the call. Rev. Olson asked what was the reason for my decision.
My reply was simply:
-We're not playing the game any longer.
-We're tired of the psychological manipulation of RWD.
-It is clear that loyalty is only one way in Ntcc, Inc. Pastor Davis demands absolute loyalty with no obligation to his flock.
- We are tired of the double standard that clearly exists within the leadership of the org. and,
- It is clear that that ministers on the field are treated with disdain.
Need I say that was the most liberating phone call that I have ever made. My wife and I are experiencing the love and blessings of Jesus like we never have before.
Michael says this is not possible if you leave the org., but I beg to differ, sir.
Walking with our Lord in His wonderful grace.
M D Reed
PS Enough was enough when RWD came up to me in a church service, just after returning from Guam. I was sitting in a pew talking with a brother that I had pastored years before. Rdub walks up and looks down over the rim of his glasses at me with that scowl and says, "What are you doing? Defiling this man?" And then says with his mean-spirited self, "when are you going to get saved?" Then he turned and walked away.
Two weeks later in the back of the church the final showdown came when I confronted him about this and he looked me right in the eye and denied ever saying those words. This was the same night that Michael got right up in my wife's face and said with his classic scum of the earth look, "what are you looking at?" It was after leaving the church that night I found out what Michael did to my wife while I was with RWD. I told her, "you should have kicked him in the parts!" LOL OK, I digress. I won't bring this event up again. I promise. ;-)
M. Reed wrote...
ReplyDeleteA couple of years ago, RWD kept telling me that he would like to have an Uncle Henry .44 Mag.
Jeff said...
I also like firearms. I just looked up a Henry 44 mag. It is simply a collectors piece. No more and no less. Really you wouldn't use it for hunting. For self protection it would hardly be a viable choice.
It's clear that RWD wanted a collectors piece. That is so rotten how he uses people. Man if someone was going to buy me a gun, I'd at least want something that had a purpose other than just to keep as a collectors item. RWD is truly spoiled rotten. That guy is dirt in my book. He is anything but a Christian. He is a swindling business man who connives people out of their money for his own personnel gain and to fulfill his own lusts. There is no other reason he'd want a Henry 44 mag. The guy has all the money he could ever want and he still manipulates people into buying him exotic gifts like a Henry 44 mag.
For self defense, I'd take a good pistol or a carbine over a 44 mag Henry rifle any day. I'd take a bolt action rifle in .30-06 or .308 for hunting any day over a Henry 44 mag. If the US ever got invaded a Henry would be the last gun that I'd want to take to battle. If someone broke into my house I can think of a whole lot of other guns that I'd want by my side first. That in itself just shows the man's nature. He didn't want a gun that served any particular purpose. He wanted to be pampered with a collectible show dog from the old west. That guy uses people and he's spoiled rotten.
RWD would be that guy that Jesus told to go sell what he had and give to the poor. There is no doubt in my mind. RWD is a swindler.
Jeff
MDR said...
ReplyDelete"What are you doing? Defiling this man?" And then says with his mean-spirited self, "when are you going to get saved?" Then he turned and walked away.
Jeff said...
What a jerk. You know it's good to get this stuff off your chest. I can only imagine how much this stuff can bother you from time to time. RWD hasn't changed a bit and in fact he is probably worse than he ever was. I just can't believe how bad he treats people. Enough said.
Jeff
Hey Bro. Bellamy *excitedly waving from Texas* =)
ReplyDeleteI just came across a picture not too long ago of you and your wife, and and my hubby Robert together that was taken the last service you preached at the church in Germany. Ahhh...memories... =)
Please tell Sister hello for me. I miss you guys!
Robert and I have always respected the 2 of you because you were real, your care, love and concern were genuine (not a fake plastered on smile and handshake), like it should be in a Christians life. =)
Will be keeping you and your situation in our thoughts and prayers.
Blessings,
Sis. Dawn
Edward said, "But when I realized that they do not love or care about me and others that have been loyal to God and them for many years then it was time to rethink being a part of NTCC."
ReplyDeleteShortly before Christmas, I tearfully told V. Davis that I was troubled by the generally harsh tone of the messages in Graham, and the shameful treatment my husband had received from RWD. We had requested to leave Guam, not because of sin, but Matt felt we were done there. Even if we had come back with problems, is this the way to help people? I told her, through the years we've gone anywhere and done anything we were asked, and it's never been good enough. RWD doesn't even think my husband is saved.
Her only answer was that the devil was lying to me. I said, no, this is reality. She told me to go talk to her husband. I thought, yeah, sure, he is the source of my heartache.
It was after speaking to her that the showdown took place between Matt and RWD in the back of the church. (where MCK got up in my face) ;-) Then came the concerted effort from the pulpit by RWD to drive a wedge between us. RWD evidently thought I was the problem, because I now became the target.
V. Davis in a whimpering voice told Matt, "Your wife is listening to the lies of the devil. You need to talk to her. You can't leave, Bro. Reed. You're ours. You belong to us." Matt stood there thinking, no, no ma'am, I belong to Jesus. :-)
And that's the bottom line, we belong to Jesus, not NTCC, Inc. or any church organization for that matter. Matt and I, like you and your wife, Brother Bellamy, have always been on the same sheet of music. Our prayers go out to you both, knowing God is with you.
"V. Davis in a whimpering voice told Matt, "Your wife is listening to the lies of the devil. You need to talk to her. You can't leave, Bro. Reed. You're ours. You belong to us."
ReplyDeleteWow..how creepy is that! *shudder*
That just screams CULT!
By the way Sis. Reed, you don't know me (I attended the JC church shortly after you guys left, 2001-2004), but I've been reading your blog for years.
I used to be able to find it by going through Rev. Devonshire's blog. I recently went to his blog this week so I could go read yours (I had forgotten your blog address)and seen he took you off of his link section. :( That's not cool, but expected I guess.
Just wanted to say hi. =)
Jeff said...
ReplyDeleteWhat a jerk. You know it's good to get this stuff off your chest. I can only imagine how much this stuff can bother you from time to time. RWD hasn't changed a bit and in fact he is probably worse than he ever was. I just can't believe how bad he treats people. Enough said.
Jeff, this stuff bothers everybody. If everyone that is still in Ntcc, Inc. would be true to their hearts and say I have had enough of this stuff, and leave, they wouldn't have too many people in the pews the next service. Let me just say, it doesn't bother us any more. We just want to help others see that they are not imagining this stuff or being lied to by the devil. The devil is the one dishing it out. Wow, did I just say that? Yep, I sure did!
Bye for now!
M D Reed
V. Davis in a whimpering voice told Matt, "Your wife is listening to the lies of the devil. You need to talk to her. You can't leave, Bro. Reed. You're ours. You belong to us." Matt stood there thinking, no, no ma'am, I belong to Jesus. :-)
ReplyDeleteThis is so sad I clearly see people being Lords over Gods heritage. When ever I think of this story I get a visual of someone getting smacked across the face and then the individual who smacked them saying you know I love you. Then another smack comes brother don't forget we pray for you. Then another smack the devil is lying to you why would you think I despise you. Then yet another and then they say (they that love the Lord nothing shall offend them) You beat the dog long enough sooner or later they bite back.
I grew up in the church in Leesvilla LA. I watched my mother and father spend money we didn't have to tithe and give money to buy pews. Watched my mother give all she had to do stuff and teach Sunday school. Watched as a pastor actually made fun of my little brother from the pulpit.I'm now 24 years old and still cannot wrap my head around how anyone can think that some of the things done from the pulpit there are right.
ReplyDeleteI watched my father let a Reverend run his marriage and relationship with his children into the ground. Spending time at the "serviceman's" home doing the bidding of J.D Bailey while he*J.D Bailey schemed with R. Denis and R Olones*I think this is the spelling* to steal the money from the church. I hear this is what the second time that J.D Bailey was involved with stealing a congregations tithe and offerings. Yet his "congregation" is still following him like lambs to the slaughter because he had a "change of heart" and backed out.
Me, my brothers, my cousins and childhood friends were denied our childhood because a minister took it upon himself to walk the stairs into and the pulpit and say that things like playing sports in school was wrong? I still have a Aunt and Uncle who are pastors in the church and 2 cousins who are still a part of the organization. I just hope they see the light before they don't have anything left. One thing I can say...NTCC taught me a valuable lesson. I will NEVER treat my childrens childhood as mine was treated.
Shonda said, "You beat the dog long enough sooner or later they bite back."
ReplyDeleteShonda, you're spot on. And make no mistake about it, that's exactly the way they think of you and everybody else for that matter...You're dogs that must eat the crumbs that fall from Rdubs table. I used to tell my wife, If you keep kicking the dog it will eventually run away. Well, many good "dogs" have runaway, and Rdub and his trainer Michael just keep right on kicking.
You take care "dog"! ;-)
M D Reed
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMe, my brothers, my cousins and childhood friends were denied our childhood because a minister took it upon himself to walk the stairs into and the pulpit and say that things like playing sports in school was wrong? I still have a Aunt and Uncle who are pastors in the church and 2 cousins who are still a part of the organization. I just hope they see the light before they don't have anything left. One thing I can say...NTCC taught me a valuable lesson. I will NEVER treat my children's childhood as mine was treated.
Jeff said...
That made me feel real good. NOT!!! It made me feel sad, mad, upset, frustrated, bothered and troubled. I don't know if there are, but there should be laws against churches like the NTCC and specifically the NTCC. I can feel the pain this person has experienced when I read the testimony. That is so sad. Life is so short and each life is precious and I hate to hear of someone's childhood being ruined by an abusive church. It's terribly sad.
I've read so many testimonies just like this one and Mike Kekel has the nerve to say "we just didn't listen." He says, "there was never a problem with playing sports". He says, "it was Ron Denis' fault because Ron misled people and it wasn't his father in law who taught those rules".
Sure Ron Denis was a crook but Mike Kekel can't place all the NTCC abusive practices on Ron Denis' shoulders. The bottom line is that this person was robbed of their childhood and you are only a child once. No second chance on that one.
Jeff
Hey Dawn,
ReplyDeleteGood to hear from you. Thanks for your comments; email me at ebb702@yahoo.com and I will give you our phone number. We would love to talk to you.
Thank you for your prayers. I have received the victory over what I was facing. Jesus did it in the miracle of a moment when I started depending on his grace. Thank the Good Lord for his grace and mercy.
Sometimes people forget that the Pastors and Preachers are Christians and face the same battles as everyone else. For some reason if people see what we are going through they believe that we are less of a pastor. That is why being a pastor is a very lonely existence and when our leaders show little love and concern the ministry becomes a drudgery. We are told that we shouldn't get burned out, but we do. The conferences have become so negative many of us wonder, why go?
They don't understand why we come to blogs like this one. (I have asked myself that same question.)It is because someone is listening. We have tried to get them to listen, but they don't. They dismiss what we are going through, because some of them have never really been in the field. It is a different world today than it was 20 and 30 years ago. The old wine isn't better you just are use to it.
Bro. Bellamy
Jeff you mentioned your daughter wasn’t allowed to go to gym class- that sounds familiar. We weren’t allowed to participate in sports or gym. In fact, my sister and I were home schooled with Mennonite school books. God forbid that our school books had women with short hair or pants on.
ReplyDeleteIt really bothers me to read about Grant Kekel going to the finest schools and living such a great life. When there were others that were completely deprived of pretty much everything during childhood. We were doing good to keep food on the table, shopping at the thrift stores, and walking to the Laundromat.
I remember her telling me to use a wooden spoon to spank her with. I know I spank way more then I have with my son. I often feel bad for somethings I put my DD through. All that sitting at those stupid conferences,making her wait to go to the bathroom. So I did not interrupt RW davis in his stupid teaching time.
How ironic….I experienced the same thing as a child!!
I wonder if Tanya felt that way about her own son. What is that saying….”Do as I Say, Not as I Do” Seems to apply to NTCC
I forgot to put *April said*
ReplyDeleteApril said....
I remember her telling me to use a wooden spoon to spank her with. I know I spank way more then I have with my son. I often feel bad for somethings I put my DD through. All that sitting at those stupid conferences,making her wait to go to the bathroom. So I did not interrupt RW davis in his stupid teaching time.
We see Cream Of The Crop is back on here commenting =D
ReplyDeleteWe did post your comment on our blog for a thread called:
Take My Kids To ntcc? Not after reading This True Story by Sarah Goodwin aka "Cream of the Crop"
Don and Ange
1gi2another[at]gmail.com
"You may not know it, but I followed your posts on factnet for a long time."
ReplyDeleteThanks, Matt; it's good to know that my efforts to expose these spiritual criminals haven't been in vain, and I'm glad you're in the fight. There are many lurkers who will one day say the same thing to you.
Lurkers: Listen up to Matt and take heed to his experience. Save yourself oceans of grief and despair and get away from the spiritual black hole that has entrapped you. Join us and contribute your own stories of abuse and maltreatment, thereby helping your brothers and sisters in bondage. NTCC needs to perish from off the earth, and the sooner it happens, the better.
"V. Davis in a whimpering voice told Matt, "Your wife is listening to the lies of the devil. You need to talk to her. You can't leave, Bro. Reed. You're ours. You belong to us.""
ReplyDeleteShe's a grasping, conniving old witch, and a co-conspirator with her evil husband in the oppression of many. I can just hear that fake whimpering and see the phony mask of sadness she wears as she schemes to break up marriages.
What do these people think? Are they so far deceived that they don't understand that there are eternal consequences for what they do? It's amazing how blatant they are in their willful destruction of human lives.
DR said - "V. Davis in a whimpering voice told Matt, "Your wife is listening to the lies of the devil. You need to talk to her. You can't leave, Bro. Reed. You're ours. You belong to us.""
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many people could be listed as having their marriages broken up because of the efforts of her, Tanya and different board member's wives. They try to drive a wedge in between or when there are issues in the marriage, rather than turning to the husband and working it out, they get drawn away from him. Subtlety, nuanced words and innuendo is their specialty. Surely they can find someone smarter, more handsome and with more money at their Bible College. Just as long as you stay ours...
Dawn said, "Wow..how creepy is that! *shudder*
ReplyDeleteThat just screams CULT!"
Careers, childhoods, families, mental and physical health in many cases, all destroyed in the name of religion. That's not the God I know.
ometimes people forget that the Pastors and Preachers are Christians and face the same battles as everyone else. For some reason if people see what we are going through they believe that we are less of a pastor. That is why being a pastor is a very lonely existence.
ReplyDeleteedward says.
That is how ntcc wants there ministers to appear. There the PRIME example for there church members. This is how you should look,act. Once your out of ntcc. Go to what I consider a Church with folks living REAL lives. Living there faith everyday. Unless there stuffy baptist,catholics,ect. No one is looking at the pastor for there guidance on life's decisions. there looking to God!!
It took me the longest to calm my nerves in a church setting with my kids beside me. If our son starting to talk,play. or my daughter needed to use the bathroom,ect. I had to learn to loosen up and not stress out over such little things. One person told me,Kids will be Kids! Took me about a year,but I am alot calmer when I have my kids in public situations! We put to much on there shoulders to be perfect little angels. While I watched Grant sleep in church,be a spoiled brat when he was in sunday school. But our kids were not allowed to JUST BE KIDS! Now they can!
And a preacher is a person with a title. That preacher is NO different then the folks sitting in the pews. All got to go to Heaven the same way!
April
April said: Unless there stuffy baptist,catholics,ect.
ReplyDeleteSounding a little like the NTCC April. I don't know if I would have thrown that in there. Just an observation.
Edward said, "Sometimes people forget that the Pastors and Preachers are Christians and face the same battles as everyone else"
ReplyDeleteYou must always smile, always clap heartily, raise your hands when you are told, agree with everything that is preached and never show that you may be human and have a problem or are experiencing a battle. In NTCC, life is always rosey if you are born again and any sign of weakness is unacceptable. Be a robot and everything is fine. They neither have the academic training or for that matter any real compassion to help anybody.
Its a real world people. This phony facade is absolutely abnormal and plain C-R-A-Z-Y!
DR said,
ReplyDelete"V. Davis in a whimpering voice told Matt, "Your wife is listening to the lies of the devil. You need to talk to her."
when will they realize their stupid jedi mind tricks don't work on everyone!
M.D. Reed said
ReplyDeleteYou take care "dog"! ;-)
LOL
At least when we ran we ran in the right direction (by the grace of God) right into the hands of Jesus. I was tempted to run in a different direction (off a cliff LOL) but God kept his hand on me as he has for many others.
we just found a place for us to live yesterday in our new location I am so excited. Its a really nice place for a great price with a lower pet deposit for my 3 cats Cockatoo and 2 frogs and a fish LOL. Its still will be a while before the insurance kicks in and we are able to get my hernia operated on but I have been reading online you can heal it yourself by building up the wall tissue and muscle behind it with abdominal exercises. Hopefully this will work because thinking about waiting another year was a little discouraging and I have been in a lot of pain recently.
God Bless you Both so thankful we all can keep in touch.
Shonda
"I have been reading online you can heal it yourself by building up the wall tissue and muscle behind it with abdominal exercises. Hopefully this will work because thinking about waiting another year was a little discouraging and I have been in a lot of pain recently."
ReplyDeleteMaybe it will work for minor ruptures, but I wouldn't be so sure that it won't just aggravate your condition if it's progressed beyond a certain point. I had surgery almost three years ago; turned out I had FIVE HERNIAS (which I didn't even know was possible). Pretty much all healed up now.
Or you could just pray. Mike Kekel claims he was healed of one when we were in BS...but that might have just been a bunch of BS to awe the masses.
Vic
ReplyDeleteWhoa 5 hernia's! Dude! I think I just have 1 there are times I think I have 2 because I get severe upper chest discomfort and thought it could possibly be another Hernia. I know its not a heart problem because my pulse blood pressure and everything is always perfect.
I am so glad you were able to get that worked on and things are all healed up, you must have been in a world of pain. I'll definitely take your word for it and try not to injure it more than it already is. Did you ever use one of those truss thingy's for your hernia's when you had them? Are they any good? Yesterday I couldn't do anything because I had to hold my hernia in it hurt so bad.
I prayed for my hernia to be healed many times. One time I went up to ask for it to be healed and I was told to put my hand on the area that hurt, I did it but it was so embarrassing because I practically had to put my hand on my crotch LOL. Ug that was a little embarrassing in front of our small church congregation.
One time after I prayed for a healing I was told to run around the inside of the church sanctuary 2 times. I tried not to question because I didn't want it to get in the way of my healing, I ran as fast as I could because I didn't want it give it a weak effort. Yep that day I was praying for God to heal my Bipolar. Lets just say running around the building two times in front of our small congregation didn't make me feel more mentally put together LOL.
God is good he is using some doctors to heal me and I am on a good medication, I love my Doctor he is a wonderful God fearing man who I really respect.
Thanks for the input Vic:)
Shonda Cannon
"O ye of little faith..." - If you really wanted to be healed, you should be doing jumping jacks for Jesus, holding your wallet up to the sky, doing the Electric Slide in the aisle, square dancing around the altar and walking across the backs of the pews...
ReplyDeleteRev. Ashmore Sir
ReplyDeleteGod knows my heart I had faith at that time. It was a very confusing time I had prayed to be healed of Bipolar many times and would stop taking my medication and get worse and my moods would go up and down. Someone who gets very high manic episodes can be confused in a high emotional service and think is this God or my emotions.
I had tried to be healed for years it was time to take my medication. I felt very close to losing my mind many times while you were there I think you knew that and I was very mistreated by the people there and was given no solution it had worn down on me for too long. And then on top of everything you were teasing me, yes I forgave you but it still hurt. I needed a change before I cracked.
I didn't know if you knew it but my husband had to rebuild the small church we had after every time you came to preach and a lot of times he had to rebuild (me). Things were always kind of bitter sweet when you came I loved you both a lot so thats what made it sweet but sometimes other things made it bitter. You can judge me Sir I don't care I will always love you but God ultimately knows my heart. And just because I didn't jump the pews and dance on the altar doesn't mean my heart was not sincere. I was was Broken when you came I think you knew that but I just got broken more. After you left them helpers wife started treating worse than she had I felt because you had set the example before her of how I should be treated when you teased me in front of her twice on two separate occasions after the first time when you knew it had already made me cry because you asked me if it had made me cry in front of them.
Enough said
Shonda, I only really felt one hernia; there was a pain in my right groin. I though maybe it was a hernia, so I went in and told the PA that. Well, he didn't detect it, and it continued to get worse. I finally went to an MD months and months later, who sent me to the surgeon. The surgeon said I had inguinal hernias on both sides and an umbilical hernia (I thought it was normal for it to hurt when one's navel gets poked). During the surgery, they found femoral hernias on both sides too. So I must have been all torn up, but really, it wasn't excruciating or anything, just a continuous nagging pain. So I never tried a truss, and I couldn't even really find it to push anything back in. Anyway, I'm glad I have good insurance, because it cost about 20K. Good thing it didn't happen while I was in the org; I'd have just had to suck it up. That lifestyle was totally unhealthy. I feel better now at 53 than I did at 30. Good food, exercise, peace of mind, and freedom can do a lot.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the response Vic :)
ReplyDeleteI talked to my Dad just a bit ago who also had a hernia he insisted that I not exercise only telling me I would make it worse. I am definitely looking forward to getting on health insurance I just got on Dental a few months ago its nice to be able to go the the dentist again :)
Debbie Reed wrote ...
ReplyDeleteWhy is there now only one service in Graham on Sunday mornings, and it's half empty?
WOW!! This is a serious report. I wonder how the Bonko Grahamites who have been there for ages feel about that. I imagine this intelligence has not made it into the ears of so many ministers out on the field, but this is very telling about NTCC. They used to have 2 services Sunday mornings.
I wonder if the next time Olson yells, "WE ARE WINNING" his fingers will be crossed behind his back.
I had to restrain myself from rejoicing in this report, because it is actually rather sad that another so-called "Christian" church has failed spiritually and now numerically, no doubt because of the spiritual failure to love the people that loved them so much.
Don and Ange pretty much summed up a major problem with them:
"... no matter how much we love them, there is no reciprocation. They just don't love us back."
Shonda Cannon said....
ReplyDelete"God knows my heart I had faith at that time. It was a very confusing time I had prayed to be healed of Bipolar..."
the ntcc have little tolerance for those with mental incapcities.
Just speaking from experience,as far as Baptist and Catholic. I have kind of sworn off what I call name churches. Methodist,Catholic,Baptist,ect. Many of them you get the,well us Baptist don't do such and such. I am a Catholic,on and on. They do not see themselve's as a christian. They see themselves as that Name! So when I talk about REAL Christians. they have to be out living there lives. While doing that they live there faith. My faith is not tied up in a church building. Though I do still enjoy going to a church building and partcipating in the ritual of going to church. Rather take God outside o the Box!!
ReplyDeleteApril
Oh and Anon,why don't you toss out your name?
ReplyDeleteApril
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteShonda Cannon said ...
ReplyDeleteOne time after I prayed for a healing I was told to run around the inside of the church sanctuary 2 times.
Kris said ...
I was just going to say, this sounds like Rev. Ashemore to me, and then I scrolled down and saw you had addressed Ashemore himself! He is the Charismatic side of NTCC. He still thinks God is doing things like instantaneous healings right on the spot like He did with the Apostles. Sis Devonshire told us how he punched someone in the stomach who needed healing! I'm afraid you were trying to ask the Mad-Hatter himself for psychological help. He apparently thinks he is God's healer, and has others believing the same thing. Trouble is, his antics don't line up with the Apostle's actions. I can't recall the apostles hitting someone or instructing them to run around the room like a chicken with their head cut off!
This goes to show the Pentecostal tongues movement has it's links with the wild and crazy Azusa Street "revival" of the very early 1900's. I read in some places that there were people barking like dogs, rolling around on the saw-dust covered floor, and women falling into the arms of men. That was when hugging became okay between opposite sexes, which was taboo before. It was a new "anything goes" freedom to worship in the most bizarre ways so that the "Holy Ghost could have his way in the services." One man said something like, God's got a bunch of people that's not afraid to look like fools! I think Ashemore has been waiting for years to "come out of the bush" with his Charismatic movement within NTCC. If you read his website messages (link on Debbie's and Greg's blog) you can see what he is mostly preaching- POWER IN THE NAME OF JESUS! HEALING! YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THE HEALER FROM THE SAVIOUR! He is even so proud that on on of his pages he says that you are about to enter the holy of holies. Wow. I didn't get that impression, Rev. Ashemore. Not at all. I get a lot more from reading books that teach me how to interpret the Bible rationally, not crazilly.
April said,
ReplyDelete"Oh and Anon,why don't you toss out your name?"
because there is an anonymous button that's why!
Kris said,
ReplyDelete"That was when hugging became okay between opposite sexes, which was taboo before."
Really!? now come on!
MRD wrote..."What RWD didn't know was I had the internet at that time, and I wonder how many others did too?"
ReplyDeleteMatt...What very few knew was the HQ in Graham had the internet in its offices as early as 2004. How do I know? One of the workers there showed it to me. He took me back to his office, I sat down by his desk and watched him surf, as he showed me the great things to be found there.
They initially really needed the internet to pull content for their magazine, and the first issue came out September 1995.
Of course, as we all remember, NTCC was vigorously preaching against the internet during this time (2004), and for many years before.
Gregory
why stay Anon. Has to be reason folks stay hidden. Hide behind the Anon button!
ReplyDeleteApril,
We left WA in 2000. And I know for a fact that Rev. Butler had the internet. I tried sharing sunday school links with his wife. She was whispering to me. To share the links with her husband. She LET him do all there internet surfing. As if it was to difficult or dangerous for the weak minded female to go on the big bad internet!
ReplyDeleteOh yeah,we had the internet in Washington. When the internet was not allowed,allowed. No one ever really knew for sure. Every conference we would come out those doors. And I would cringe as we drove up that long dirt road. Waiting for the FALSE conviction. To get rid of our internet.
April
you get your own blog maybe you can have one without an anon button. taa daa!
ReplyDeleteGS wrote...
ReplyDeleteWhat very few knew was the HQ in Graham had the internet in its offices as early as 2004.
Jeff said...
Now come on Greg. You know that even though we couldn't spiritually handle having the internet at our disposal, the leadership in Graham could. Of course they were spiritual enough to resist the devilnet and all it's wily ways. We were all certainly destined to become porn addicts if we had the internet at our disposal.
Jeff
"Sis Devonshire told us how he punched someone in the stomach who needed healing!"
ReplyDeleteThat's vintage Smith Wigglesworth. He was sued for something like that back in the day. We were assigned to read "Ever Increasing Faith" in BS. It's his autobiography. You can read it online at http://www.nemontel.net/~word1/ever_increasing_faith.htm . I believe he discusses punching the devil out of folks in there someplace.
Ashmore was my pastor and because of his ministry I went to St. Louis. No one in NTCC ever moved me like he could. Practically the whole church went to BS. He was really into the signs and wonders thing, and we all believed that revival was going to break out here just like in Wales. We ignored his quirks (and abusive ways) because no one could preach like that and we were in awe. To this day I've never heard anything like it. But no pulpiteering can ever justify some of the antics he pulled, and he absolutely idolized RW and the org.
Jeff said, "We were all certainly destined to become porn addicts if we had the internet at our disposal."
ReplyDeleteWait a minute! I distinctly remember RWD preaching that only Peeeeedophiles and pornographers are on the internet. So judging by his own standard, what did that make them?
Just that statement alone tells a lot about the way that dude thinks.
That doesn't sound like the intelligent thoughts of someone with two PhD's talking to me.
mdr
Reverand Bellamy,
ReplyDeleteI commend you and salute you in the Lord Sir for your unquestionable honesty and love for the Lord.
You can be my Pastor anytime!!
Whatever your final decision might be concerning NTCC I pray that God will make a way for you and open up doors only once imagined.
He is exceedingly able to do above and beyond what we could ever hope to ask or think.
Please tell Sis Bellamy Hello for me. I still cannot play drums worth a squat :)
Regards,
Bro Johnson
mdr,
ReplyDeletenot to be funny, but what's not to say there are Porn addicts in NTCC and I am talking about Preachers?
We all fall short of the Glory of God, if I smoke and drink myself to death, it is still sin however you want to classify it.
Without Jesus the drunkard and porn addict will both go to hell.
Thank god for the Cross of Calvary.
Bro Johnson
Kris, alot of what is in Ashmore's blog has been taken from his reading of books from people like A.J. Gordon and E.W. Kenyon and is certainly not original. Kenyon is the father of the Word of Faith Movement that has come from men like Kenneth Hagin and different ministries that are affiliated with them and Rhema Bible College (e.g. Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, etc.)
ReplyDeleteThough he was used to earlier create a doctrinal basis for pre-Pentacostalism, R.A. Torrey (help establish Moody Bible Institute, started Biola Bible College) later declared that this new Pentecostal movement (at Azusa Street) was "emphatically not of God, and founded by a Sodomite."
H. A. Ironside said in 1912 both the holiness and Pentecostal movements were "disgusting...delusions and insanities" ... "pandemonium's where exhibitions worthy of a madhouse or a collection of howling dervishes," were causing a "heavy toll of lunacy and infidelity."
W.B. Godbey said of the Azusa Street participants and claimed the movement was the result of spiritualism. "Satan's preachers, jugglers, necromancers, enchanters, magicians, and all sorts or mendicants," ("From Holy Laughter to Holy Fire" by Michael L. Brown)
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteKris, alot of what is in Ashmore's blog has been taken from his reading of books from people like A.J. Gordon and E.W. Kenyon and is certainly not original.
Jeff said...
And? I'm not sure if there was a point? I'm just guessing that you've been studying some sort of Christian history.
Jeff
Rev Ashemore came to our church one time for Revival. He had a healing service and he healed two people that lasted for two days. He also prayed for a lady to get the Holy Ghost and when she didn’t start speaking in tongues he asked her if she had any hidden sin in her life; and if she was holding back from God. I’m like wow!!
ReplyDelete"he healed two people..." - That's the problem, many times the folks in NTCC look to him as being some spiritual mechanic to fix all of their ails and really if anything they get a little ego boost ("Oh Brother we're in revival now..."), pep talk, and get cured of a headache...
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteI think you missed the second part to that, the two people said they were healed, but two days later there problems came back. I thought when Jesus healed you, you were healed. Maybe they didn’t want to disappoint Ashemore.
"He had a healing service and he healed two people that lasted for two days."
ReplyDeleteThat's been my general observation when it comes to "healings" in NTCC. The rhetoric sounds great, and people get up and "claim the victory," but it's just emotionalism, mostly, and when the warm fuzzies wear off, it is discovered that no real change occurred. But really--who is raising the dead and opening blind eyes? RW fed us all kinds of legends about healings he had performed, but none of us ever saw any. Dorsie promoted this theory that one could be healed even though his symptoms remained. Huh? What good is being "healed" if there is no objective change in your condition? They must be getting their doctrine from Mary Baker Eddy.
Why are none of these "healings" medically documented? Jesus didn't dither around with theories and fantasies; he healed people and they were made instantly whole. They talk about that kind of thing in the org and whistle around in the graveyard telling themselves "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever," but their talisman never seems to produce results (unless you count tales woven by a known liar and charlatan).
I've always wondered about the ntcc pastors who are pastoring a rather big congregation like briggs and devonshire and peres and barnes,and those that will pay tithe on their churches monies and have all those funds and keep putting money in the escrows, don't they ever question the why they continue to be "castraded" spiritually speaking.
ReplyDeleteWhy do they do this, knowing full well that at any given time, if they don't follow the rules they will be taken out and put under surveillance in graham.
*despicable me
NTCC and 'healing?' Many of the leadership spouses need healing for one thing or another (including Helen and Verna), but have remained post-prayer sick/injured (some for decades).
ReplyDeleteGod healed me (medically documented, I have the records), but Pastor Davis ordered me to get an operation anyway...just in case.
Seriously? Really? Yes, it's true. Just ask him and he'll tell ya'.
Gregory
I don't have a desire to get back into this but thought I should answer for myself anyway the question anon posted about why we (I) keep putting money into Escrow.
ReplyDeleteBecause I believe it is a protection for my congregation. I know exactly how much is in the account and can know if any of the monies "disapear". I also know that the time might come when I go somewhere else and leave this church to someone else to come behind me. I would hate to see these funds drained by in-experience or crooked preachers. With an escrow there is some safety. I also believe it is a fair measure to protect my congregation from any bad decissions I might make if I could simply spend as I saw fit. As much as I want to think I would not do it I am human and can and have made mistakes in the past that an Escrow protects my church from.
I know this won't suffice for most but it is honest.
Pastor Briggs said...
ReplyDeleteI also know that the time might come when I go somewhere else and leave this church to someone else to come behind me. I would hate to see these funds drained by in-experience or crooked preachers. With an escrow there is some safety. I also believe it is a fair measure to protect my congregation from any bad decisions I might make if I could simply spend as I saw fit.
Jeff said...
Sir, that sounds good but there is one major problem with that whole set up. Where is the protection measure in place to guard against the NTCC leadership in Graham from bleeding the account dry the minute you leave? There is none but there is however testimonies which exist from three different NTCC pastors that I know of saying their escrow accounts were zeroed out the minute they left. We are talking collectively to the tune of approximately $70,000 just that has been reported to me!
Who is to say what the NTCC leadership did with that money? Vic Johanson questioned RWD to his face about when the escrow money (which incidentally was zeroed out from the account in Fairbanks) would be restored back to that church. Do you know what RWD's response was? "When the time is right" if my recollection is correct. I'd say it was the right time the minute the new pastor took over but that didn't happen.
I know the NTCC leadership is crooked so I have no reason to believe that money was ever restored. It was probably used as money for yet another RV or maybe Kekel's fat salary or maybe Grants secular education or his football uniforms and field trips.
Three different NTCC pastors reported escrow accounts being zeroed out. One for around $20,000 and one for around $10,000 and another for approximately $38,000. Well that is almost $70,000 right there and yet more ministers have reported that when they took over an existing church, there was no money in escrow; not a dime. So I wonder just how many escrow accounts the NTCC leadership has seen fit to have zeroed out and where the money went?
What that whole escrow system does say is that the NTCC leadership in Graham doesn't trust their pastors. NTCC pastors are being foolish if they trust that the leadership in Graham will do right with that money. What? You should trust them but they shouldn't trust you? Are you kidding me? The NTCC leadership is full of it Pastor Briggs, and if they don't trust you, why in the world would you trust them with your congregations money? In doing that you are not even doing right by your congregation and I sincerely mean that, especially with the knowledge that you have of the Kekel's lifestyle.
Knowing what I know now about the NTCC leadership, if I was in your church, I wouldn't give a plug nickel if you didn't control all of it along with an elder in the church. There would be a system of checks and balances to protect the money alright but it certainly wouldn't include the leadership in Graham or I'd have no part of it. You'd be out of your mind if you let Grant Kekel get one more dime of either your money or your church members money and that is exactly what is happening when Graham has control of it. You might as well slap your own children right in the face. If my little boy had a million dollars he'd have a million and one before that one extra dollar would go to the Kekel or Davis family.
Jeff
The escrows in NTCC have been covered extensively in the past and are a dual signature account that does not require the local pastor to withdrawal funds. Usually it is Olson, Johnson and/or DiFranscesco and the local pastor on the account. He couldn't even touch the account unless he was authorized by NTCC leadership and many have said how they weren't allowed to use it for various church items on this and other blogs. Money either towards a building (yay - more equity for NTCC and burden for that local pastor) or it is taken out and used for something else besides that local congregation. Briggs can only speak for his congregation, but if he was honest with himself he would see that zeroing out an escrow account doesn't "avoid the appearance of evil".
ReplyDelete"Winning" - no that's not from Charlie Sheen, that was Olson who said it first.
ReplyDeleteKnowing what I know about you, I would not want you in my church.
ReplyDeleteI'm more honest with myself then most. And definitely more honest with people then many.
ReplyDeleteThe escrows are a new thing where NTCC is concerend. In the 23 years of my participation with them. I have had a total of 2 churches that have even had an Escrow. Up until recently it was only churches that were established, with congregations, and responsibilities that had an escrow. Earlier on it was a "floor" but many preachers drained their floors. One pastor went out and bought a $6,000 PA system for a storefront church. Many other horror stories AND YOU ALL KNOW THAT. The Escrow accounts while not perfect do keep this from happening.
Jeff, as for your observations. When a church's pastorate changes so do the book balances. In other words when I go I give a ledger to the incoming pastor. Each account, Tithe Fund, General Fund, Escrow account, and any others a church might have like a Revivla fund or whatever. The ONLY time that this is not the case is if the church is closed down. But even then the monies are still available to future endeavors. I know this because I have gone into such situations before.
Anyway.... said enough@!
I wonder, if a person is not on an account and they don't get the statements and can not pull the balance how do they know if the account has been Zero'd out? They don't!
ReplyDeleteRB said...
ReplyDeleteI wonder, if a person is not on an account and they don't get the statements and can not pull the balance how do they know if the account has been Zero'd out? They don't!
Jeff said...
They do because three different NTCC pastors didn't lie. How did Vic Johanson know? He knew enough to confront RWD about it. The pastor that had $38,000 was told the account was being zeroed out. There is no reason that a pastor of a church shouldn't have access to the money which came into HIS church. Now if you don't believe that your church is "yours" that is a whole different story. These pastors know how much is in their account because they are the ones who deposit the money. If they knew there was approx $20,000 in an escrow account and they are friends with the pastor that took over and he tells them that when he took over there was no money in the account then it don't take a rocket scientist to figure out the rest.
Why should a pastor have to beg the NTCC leadership to spend money on something that a church needs or wants? Doesn't Kekel get the things that he wants? Why does a serviceman's home pastor have to report when he spends more than $50? It's a bunch of garbage Pastor Briggs and you know it.
And so what if a pastor spent $6000 on a PA system? Mike Kekel spent about $80,000 for his sons high school education. They have furniture in their house that looks like it came from a museum. The NTCC leadership is driving around a multi hundred thousand dollar RVs and someone is worried about a $6000 PA system? Are you kidding me? I don't care if his church was being held in a dog house. If he wants to spend 6K on a PA system than it's his right to do it. If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. I'll bet Mike has guitars worth about that much or more. What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander? Once again the old double standard. RWD didn't have a problem with M. Reed and his associates spending all that money on a Henry .44 mag and that is about the most useless gun you could buy. The NTCC leadership can spend money on anything they want but they want to track every dime that passes through a pastors church. I can see Sir that this whole NTCC monetary system seems to suit you fine which is why you defend it, but too many other NTCC pastors have made statements to the contrary. Everyone's conscience is different. What works for you doesn't necessary work for them.
You have to support the NTCCs financial system. If you didn't you'd condemn yourself, so this helps your conscience stay clear.
Jeff
No Jeff you are wrong. No "system" suite's me "Fine". I see no better alternative short of independence and we've arleady discussed that at length.
ReplyDeleteNo system is perfect. And I was NOT DEFENDING anything. Some anon. person asked why do I deposit into the escrow and I made an answer. Why are you trying to pull me back into a debate? Can't I simply give my answer in an honest manner without having to get raked over the coals?
You participated with the US Military and did things I am quite sure you did not want to have to do. Things you might even have questioned when ordered to do it but you did not see enough wrong in the order to seperate before retirement. And let me assure you the military has it's problems. I respect that.
Stop making this into an us against them issue with everyone that answers a question.
Agree to disagree but show some respect for the answer even if you disagree with the reasons. Let's not blurr the lines on why I said what I said.
I am a part of a group. That group has rules. I follow the rules that are deemed manditory. Those that are descretionary I weigh in the balance and accept or reject them. If the time comes when I am required to do more then I can concientiously do then we will part ways. But for now I see both good and bad in the Escrow system. But then again I see good and bad in the "total control" system too. Since I am not given enough reasons to tip the scales of my mind I stay where I'm at.
ReplyDeleteYou actually expect people to throw their lives away don't you? Come on Jeff, you yourself have even said you can't expect that.
This Money thing is a pet peeve I understand that. It's the easiest means of sowing doubts. I get it. Good play. However, you seem to want me to throw my own experience away for a couple of nameless people that might or might not be a) real b) telling the truth.
Again I need to say I don't live for you and I don't expect you to live for me. I make my own choices, based on my own experience. I would be a fool to throw what I know out in favor of what someoen else says wouldn't I?
But again, this was about a question asked in a previous posting... I should not have to defend my answer!
We all naturally defend what supports the lifestyle that we live. You have a vested interest Pastor Briggs because currently and for quite some time, the NTCCs financial system has contributed to your livelihood. Right or wrong it's only natural for you to defend it.
ReplyDeleteI've witnessed you acting in an unbiased manner on many occasions Pastor Briggs, but in this case I don't think you are Sir.
Of course I would say that because you also understand my take on the NTCC and I don't claim to be totally unbiased where the NTCC is concerned either. I'm totally convinced that the NTCC leadership is a bunch of complete crooks. Davis, Kekel and Olson are as crooked as the day is long. I'm certain of that. They are FLAT OUT LIARS. I'd have no problem with that if they didn't claim to be Christians. This world is full of liars, so what?
Jeff
Pastor Briggs said...
ReplyDeleteThings you might even have questioned when ordered to do it but you did not see enough wrong in the order to separate before retirement. And let me assure you the military has it's problems. I respect that.
Jeff said...
What I didn't do is follow orders that significantly effected the lives of others in a negative manner. NTCC pastors have a history of doing that kind of stuff. The Reeds told how they tried to drive a wedge between them before they left.
Jeff