In the previous thread Edward wrote...My mother died 11 years ago and my father-in-law died 10 years ago. I literally cry when I think of how I wasted the last few years I had with them by being dedicated to those who absolutely could care less about me. I was only a tithe check and a warm body to forget about when I had enough of the bondage. My mother and I were really close before my coming to NTCC. And for those of you that will say that it is not NTCC fault, I beg to differ. My pastor of the serviceman's home would constantly share stories of those that went to visit family and would stop serving God. During Bible School they warned us that our family could lead us away from God. That will make anyone cut off their relationship with their family.
Jeff said...
Yes Edward, the NTCC leadership constantly taught that you should distance yourself from your family. I had a pastor who didn't even think it was a good idea for me to visit my family prior to going oversees for 3 years. They tell you that your Mother and Father are the devil. The NTCC leadership has always equated leaving their church with leaving God. There could be nothing further from the truth. Leaving the NTCC is the best way to find God. One regret that is uniformly shared by virtually everyone who leaves the NTCC is the sorrow they experience as a result of how they treated their family while they were a part of the NTCC cult.
Do yourselves a favor NTCC people. When some NTCC leader tells you that you shouldn't go visit your family or to distance yourself from your family, you need to tell them to back off and mind their own business. Then when they blast you from the pulpit because of it, you need to stand right up during that very service and blast them right back. Unless your NTCC pastor leaves the NTCC the same time you do, he won't be there for you. Take that one to the bank. When you've had enough of the NTCC and you leave, in most cases, your family will be there for you. You better think about it real hard or you will have the same regrets that Edward and I have one day. Either listen to me now or you'll learn the hard way. Tell the NTCC leadership that the relationship you have with your family is none of their business and they need to BUTT OUT.
That is one of the biggest problems with so many in the NTCC leadership. They are a bunch of busy bodies who concern themselves with entirely too much that has nothing to do with them. Your Mother and Father took care of you when you couldn't take care of yourself. The Bible says you should honor your mother and father. Involvement with the NTCC is not a justifiable cause for you to throw that commandment completely out the widow. Unless you had a Mother or Father with some serious issues, the NTCC leadership will NEVER love you as much as your Mother and Father have. The fact is, the love the NTCC leadership has for you is conditional anyway. Pay tithe and we will act like we love you. Stop paying tithe and there is the door. Stop being a blind zombie and there is the door. Start thinking for yourself and there is the door. You call that love? When your Mother and Father were putting food on the table because you couldn't provide for yourself, their only concern wasn't much money you could bring into their house. In contrast, the money you bring into the NTCC is Davis' only concern and you are seriously delusional if you believe otherwise.
Wow. This is such a good thread, Jeff. It's like Tracy said, there is that pink elephant in the room that everybody sees; but nobody wants to talk about it. This thread is right on the money.
ReplyDeleteWhen I married Eric Barden we were sent out into the ministry. He had to beg davis for 'permission' to stop by Wisconsin so I could MEET his family. It was not until eight years later that he was able to meet my mother. He never even met my father, who passed away while we were workers at Ft. Bragg. I went to my father's funeral without my husband.
ntcc could care less about you or your family. That's the dying truth, folks. You grandparents in ntcc better wake up. Skip a conference - you already know what they are going to say - and go see your grandkids and children. They are more important than some old church that will leave you homeless. Or they should be anyway. If you think I'm shooting fish in a barrel, you're right. I learned that from you know who. If I got your goat, that was the goat I was after. davis could really care less about you and your family. So stop kissing his butt and put your priorities back on God and family.
Ange
Why not learn a lesson from your leaders like verna davis who made good and sure she had a family, even if it meant adopting, and then made good and sure to keep a tight leash on that family, keeping them so close that she thought a 4 minute drive in her Cadillac to go see her daughter and grandson was a burden. 4 minutes away was too far.
ReplyDeleteWAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!
THE davis' are not better than you.
They don't deserve more than you.
You are not the child of a lesser God.
So stop treating yourself like a lesser child of God.
Take care of your family; they love you. ntcc does not. And they have proven it to you time and again. Stop ignoring the truth. Repent and ask your family to forgive you for being an idol worshipper, bowing down to davis and kekel like they're your god! Get up and serve the real God and allow Him to bless you by setting you free from these leeches who suck you dry of everything then laugh at your need. Get away from these ntcc sowers of discord who drive wedges into families and don't stop until verna and tanya have run off one spouse and culled the other one to be recycled in an adulterous relationship.
Read your bible and pray and see what God says about verna the backbiting whisperer who goes around destroying marriages and tanya the scorner who does the same. They are not Christian leaders. They are cult leaders who will do whatever they can to keep one tithe payer even if it means destroying a family!
Protect your family from these thieves who will steal, lie, kill and destroy your family in order to perpetuate their real-estate expansion corporation.
Ange
I am so happy to have found this Blog. I was first invited to NTCC when I was 16. My pastor told me that I should move out of my parent's home and live with one of the sisters' in the church because my family were sinners who watched Television. Needless to say, I left the Church at age 19 and was suicidal for several years thereafter due to all of the emotional and spiritual abuse I endured as a teenager in this church. I have so many stories to tell!
ReplyDeleteI know that I just left a comment, but after reading the other comments, I'm relieved. I thought I was the only person who felt that if I left the church, I would "die and go to hell". This is what the pastor said quite frequently. I am happy knowing that I won't die and go to hell if I wear pants, associate with those who are "unbelievers". I still trying to develop a relationship with my family after distancing myself from them. This church is cult in every since of the word. I attended several conferences in Missouri. Now that I am no longer brainwashed by NTCC, it almost appear like a Compound or Jonestown.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said,
ReplyDelete" My pastor told me that I should move out of my parent's home and live with one of the sisters' in the church because my family were sinners who watched Television."
DnA said,
You are much better off spending time with your family that are sinners and watching Television than you are spending time with the ntcc which are also sinners who watch Television secretly and preach a gospel of condemnation as a bunch of hypocrites. They are like a bunch of politicians telling tax payers that they need to save energy by setting their thermostats to 78 in the summer and 60 in the winter, while they keep their mansions at 60 in the summer and 78 in the winter. Politicians and ntcc leaders are called hypocrites; that's the best word to describe them.
We are very glad that you escaped and that you kept it together and did not kill yourself. The ntcc causes a whole bunch of unnecessary stress in the lives of church members. You are not alone. There are many X members of the ntcc that have been through quite a bit of emotional stress and have been pushed beyond the limits of what a normal human being is able to withstand. If you think about it, we have been severely manipulated, emotionally and spiritually. It's a wonder we are not all in a nut ward.
DnA
Anonymous said,
ReplyDelete"I thought I was the only person who felt that if I left the church, I would "die and go to hell". This is what the pastor said quite frequently."
DnA said,
This is what the ntcc is all about. They use hell to strike a chord of fear into the hearts of those who will believe them. Everything you do has a heaven or hell ultimatum attached to it. You are not alone Anonymous. The ntcc constantly threatens people like you and I with hell. You are going to die and go to hell if you curse or smoke or drink or don't pay your tithes and give in offerings. They take Jesus out of the equation and assign judgments to specific sins. Did you ever hear Jesus say anything like this?
The woman taken in adultery was not condemned for her adultery. The ntcc leaders of that time wanted her to be stoned for her adultery but Jesus told her to go and sin no more. You don't ever see Jesus telling people that they are going to die and go to hell for committing certain sins with the exception of the Pharisees which were the hypocritical ntcc leaders of that time. Jesus hung out with the sinners so as to win them to God, while he blasted the ntcc Pharisee types for being snakes and hypocrites.
This is what the ntcc should be preaching. You are going to die and go to hell for being a hypocrite. You are going to die an go to hell for putting people through unnecessary hardship so you can be a millionaire. You are going to die and go to hell for mocking those that give everything to the program of God while you try to figure out which Cadillac you are going to drive to church or which Recreational Vehicle you should buy with the zeroed out escrow account money that you stole from the church members of a certain city. People need Christianity, not all this mess. It's a shame that these hypocrites continue to gank people for everything they got.
DnA
I think that R'Dubs so called "degree" was a couple of books he might have read thru the years but he did know how to psychologically manipulate people which is, I suppose, one of the prerequisites for setting yourself up as a "self proclaimed man of God". For all his blowing, roaring, bellowing, screaming, and prophesying, and spiritual intimidation and self proclamations he was never much more than a humbug in much the same way the Wizard of Oz was behind all the smoking mirrors, the fire,and the booming voice. Behind all the fluff and puff he is someone who has incredibly low self esteem.
ReplyDeleteI've wondered, thru the years, If he even really believes in God. I mean that. It's not up to me to judge him. (I'll leave that to the one who is far more able than I am to read, as well as discern the thought, and the intents of the heart) But I can't help but wonder about that. I once heard a well known Evangelist/Preacher (Whatever you want to call him) say that he didn't believe in God, and that everything he did was for show. He went on to say that all it was simply, was just a "business". He went on to say that you have to work it like a business, and then he went on to explain the different techniques that he knew other evangelists/preachers used who were successful in the field used to separate the faithful from their hard earned money. He is such a coward, as well as a phoney.
Ange wrote...
ReplyDeleteWhy not learn a lesson from your leaders like verna davis who made good and sure she had a family, even if it meant adopting, and then made good and sure to keep a tight leash on that family, keeping them so close that she thought a 4 minute drive in her Cadillac to go see her daughter and grandson was a burden. 4 minutes away was too far.
Jeff said...
Boy ain't that the truth. The Davis family makes sure they don't disown their family members. RWD could say, "well Mike and Tanya are saved" but that dog don't hunt any longer. GRANT is the comeback for that one. According to the NTCC's long taught standards, he ain't saved and RWD willed him a house. So much for the idea of being separate from family members who aren't quote "saved". They're putting Grant through a secular Catholic college to become anything but a minister. According to their own openly professed standards, they are giving their money to the devil himself.
Roger and Verna Davis are two sick people. They do everything possible to separate you from your loved ones but they don't lift a finger to do the same with theirs!!!!! Here is the problem people. As grown adults, we all allowed the NTCC leadership to dictate too many of our decisions. You don't ask to go visit family; you TELL them you are going to visit your family. You don't allow them to blast you because your kid or your parents (according to their sorry hypocritical standards) aren’t serving God. You blast them right back and tell them not to worry about your family. If they want to concern themselves someone, they need to worry about Grant and the NTCCs double standard leadership!!! Then if the NTCC leaders don't back off, you leave their sorry church.
So what if your family isn't in the NTCC? So what if your family goes to a different church? So what if you family doesn't go to church at all? Fulfill the law of Christ and love them just the same. You might want to consider that option before you judge them. Understand that the NTCC is quite likely more screwed up then your family's church and acting like a Pharisee is worse than not being religious at all.
Jeff
NTCC modus operandi in spades. I was married in September of 1983, and left for Alaska the very next month. I approached Rodger Dodger (the old Codger) and mentioned that I'd like to pop over to North Carolina (about a 10 hour drive from St. Louis) so that they could meet my new wife and daughter before we went 5,000 miles the other way. He looked at me with a distasteful expression, similar to the intense and pained look one has before sqeezing out some foul gas (which he was about to do, albeit from the entrance, instead of the exit) and said in a sour voice "do what you want to do."
ReplyDeleteThose of us who have spent any time around the self-proclaimed man of God and apostle know exactly what that phrase means, because he made sure to explain it to us in advance: "If I ever tell you to 'do what you want to do,' it's not because I approve, but because I know you won't listen to my advice, and that you're going to do what you want to do anyway." In other words, when he tells you that, he's using a crude form of reverse psychology. Of course, being the loyal sucker I then was, it worked perfectly. The gears in my mind whirred around, and my tender conscience responded with revulsion to the rebellious attitude I was being assigned, and instead of doing what I wanted to do and visiting my family, I did what he wanted me to do, and stayed away from them. So, married for one month, I loaded my bride and new daughter into a 1976 yellow Honda Civic, packed up Beverly Hillbillies style, and drove to Fairbanks. There were no jobs or friends (well, there was one GI who was a slight acquaintance and the nucleus of our pioneer work) waiting, and no help whatsoever from the org. It didn't kill us, it made us stronger, but that doesn't make it right.
It was three or four years before my folks got to meet Edna and Nicole, and that was only because they drove to a conference to see us. I didn't meet her family for eight years (except for a brother and sister who also came to St. Louis to see her).
The sad upshot of this is that my father died a few years after we left the org (but thankfully he got to witness our escape), and the relationship I had with my mom has never fully recovered, although I'm still trying to do what I can to repair it before she dies too. One thing I can say is that they didn't shun me during the time I rejected them for NTCC like NTCC shunned me after I finally woke up and rejected their "program." The fake love in NTCC is totally conditional, and if you don't jump through the hoops, you don't get that gushy positive reinforcement.
Jeff is right on about the double standards. Old RW hung out with his "sinner" brother Dave in St. Louis, and who knows where all he went (or what he did) when he left town. And his old baptist dad was good for heaven, but no other baptists got such a pass.
"ntcc could care less about you or your family. That's the dying truth"
ReplyDeleteBro Johnson and ALL the Lizards said.......PREACH!!!
pimps in the pulpit (prosperity preachers) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FipM4SNo98Y
ReplyDeleteKekel is a pimp. His wife is the pimpstress. They pimp their church members. Come clean my house yo... Yo, yo, come wash my underwear and dust my chandelier. Straighten out my books, don't miss that dust in the corner. Don't forget that ring around my toilet and those dookie skids. You missed a crumb under my kitchen table.
ReplyDeletePeople, that is pimping your church members. They are getting pimped and they are getting played. I don't know if all that (NTCC leadership house cleaning by the church members) is still going on but it certainly was. If they are not still pimping their church members they certainly were and it's wrong. That is called "Using folks".
Jeff
If NTCC really cared about souls, they would start a church right here in Afganistan.
ReplyDeleteIf I was still in NTCC, this scenerio would play out
NTCC Preacher "Brother, you could do a work for God in Afghanistan"
Me: "Really, Sir?"
NTCC Preacher: "Yes, Brother! It would be a blessing to your future ministry, you could reach lost GIs for Christ!"
Me: "Really, Sir?"
NTCC Preacher: "You could start a Bible study, and build it up from there. Once you get some tithe payers we can see if Rev Davis will send a Preacher over there!"
Me: "I'll do it Sir!!"
NTCC Preacher is Thinking "SUCKER!!!"
Bro Johnson
Hey Jeff...
ReplyDeleteNeither of us like Tanya, But for different reasons.
I wonder what R'Dub is doing with himself these days. I wonder how he passes the time. Is it in worry, or fretting, Or does he just wander around the house with nothing to do. I have this image of him in my mind about what he does. When I have more time I'll share that out here.
Bro Johnson said...
ReplyDelete"You could start a Bible study, and build it up from there. Once you get some tithe payers we can see if Rev Davis will send a Preacher over there!"
Jeff said...
Bingo!!! Ain't that the truth. That is exactly how it works in the NTCC. "Once you get some tithe payers". What a crock. It takes money to save souls. No money, no souls.
Jeff
I doubt RDUB has changed much. I'm confident he is just as business minded as he ever was. That dude will be renting, flipping or buying houses till the day he dies. Nothing wrong with that. I just can't stand this front he's putting on. If you are going to be a real estate tycoon then so be it but stop fronting like you care about souls.
ReplyDelete"This is my church, I was here first. I was here when you got here and I'll be here when you leave, if you don't like it here, there is the door".
That dude don't care about souls. He cares about money, power and control. Give his org your money and let his sorry leaders control you and you are welcome to stay. Pull your tithe or question his sorry leaders and there is the door. "If you have a problem with one of my pastors, you have a problem with me and if you have a problem with me you have a problem with GAWD"!!!! RDUBs famous quotes.
Jeff
no church in afghanistan unless there was a real estate profit the new testament real estate church could make.
ReplyDelete"there's an offering for this, and an offering for that, every time I'm around, the pimp is passing his hat"....
Don and Ange made a blog post out of the video.
ReplyDeleteso i just remembered how davis likes guns and i was there when he preached
ReplyDelete"what do you need a gun for ? if God can't protect you, no one can".
yet another example of the hypocrisy of the man behind the curtain
I remember one lady told me that rwd was like the perfect father she never had. I could not believe she had just uttered these words to me. Maybe she had rotten parents but to shun the ones who gave you life and saw you through till you became independent was not a healthy thing to me. Maybe that is why there are a lot of people in the ntcc that practically gave their all to the org, because they had a really bad childhood. I remember once mck was preaching, which by the way is not preaching at all, but going on and on about how bad a family life he had, that he was so thankful for the davises who taught him how to be a real person. I could not believe it but there are people "in" that have this mentality.
ReplyDeleteblovd
Scripture for the day:
ReplyDeleteLuke 19:8-9
"And Zaccaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods, I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, Forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."
Mathew 25:44-45
"Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me."
DnA
I was just thinking of how hard it is to run a business. I have a small garage door repair business with no employees. I do all the work myself, although my wife is starting to help me out now that she is here with me. Just paying my taxes is a huge headache.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder Kekel was such a grouch in Seminary. If I waited in line to talk to him because Rev. Butler or someone told me he was the only one to talk to about something, he would often leave and act like he didn't see any of us waiting for possibly an hour or more.
One time, he talked to Bro. Schaub for like an hour while a handful of us schmucks stood by waiting patiently for his royal highness' attention, and finally he looked at us and said, you know I DO have a family to get home to, guys. He was so inconsiderate of us. What about our time that WE just wasted staring at you for nothing!
Kris said...
ReplyDeleteFinally he looked at us and said, you know I DO have a family to get home to, guys.
Jeff said...
He can kiss my back side. You should have turned to him and said, "Listen here you jerk, we're not the ones who came up with the stupid rule that we have to stand here in line and wait to talk to you about every issue your sorry father in law could possibly dream up!!! I've got a solution to this problem Kekel. This will be the last time I stand in line to talk to you about anything so you can stick all this "asking for permission business" up your butt!!!"
There, that would have took care of that whole problem. He should have told his cult leader, control monger, father in law that he had a family to go home to and then there would have been no reason to talk to that jerk about anything. I can't stand the NTCC. Anyone still with that sorry organization is foolish if they stand in line to talk to Kekel about anything. I don't need Kekel. I take care of my own family and they take care of me and I don't need Kekel so there is literely no reason to talk to him. I just went on vacation and I didn't have to get permission from the likes of Kekel or his sorry father in law or listen to their hypocrite preaching because they think I would have been better off soul winning. They can all kiss my butt.
Jeff
There, was that righteous enough? "Boy that Jeff Collins sure needs to get saved"! Whatever. I'm not interested in anyone's judgmental, self-righteous attitude. I wasn't trying to act all sanctified. Kekel needs to get saved and so does his father in law. I'm not the hypocrite running around preaching to everyone about salvation while simultaneously treating people like crap. This is what Kekel and his sorry abusive double standard father in law does. Those two are are a couple pompous, uppity, control mongers. You NTCCers don't need Kekel and Davis, they need you. If you think those two clowns are going to get you to heaven you are blind as a bat. If you want real estate advise go to Kekel and Davis. If you want spiritual advise you'd be better off going to a bull frog.
ReplyDeleteJeff
"I don't need Kekel. I take care of my own family and they take care of me and I don't need Kekel so there is literely no reason to talk to him."
ReplyDeleteJeff, I did not need Kekel's permission to go to Afghanistan either!!
Bro Johnson
Bro Jeff,
ReplyDeleteAug 20 marks an anniversary of sorts for me. My daughter will be 7 years old. on AUG 20, 2004 I left the cult for good and did not turn back on the left hand or to the right.
There were folks in the Org who I respected and I continued to visit them at a NTCC Church, they know who they are, but it was all about the friendships that had developed over the years, it had NOTHING to do about the cult.
My daughter's name is Love (Charity) which is the opposite of what NTCC preaches.
Bro Johnson
Jeff, I was going on in my mind the many ministers that would have had a good job if it wasn't for the rules about having to be in every service. Also those stupid rules about not working Saturday because, saturday was when you had to go out soul=winning.
ReplyDeleteAs one who flew over the kekel's nest, I tell you, I saw many ministers and students alike still going to ask for permission to take a job!
One couple comes to mind, and they are not young, he still is going from job to job, always having to change jobs because they rather be loyal to this stupid rule than providing for themselves!
Makes me sick just talking about it.
I know that this has nothing to do with the topic of your thread but Kris brought something up about jobs and it reminded me of this.
Thanks Jeff for your blog.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI saw many ministers and students alike still going to ask for permission to take a job! Thanks Jeff for your blog.
Jeff said...
You're welcome. I appreciate that and of course there are many of us who contribute. This blog would be useless without participation but thanks again. People who escape the NTCC would probably thank you for participating.
Now about this business of asking permission to take a job. That must be the most ludicrous practice I've ever heard of. How do you know if your church is a CULT? When the sorry church leaders require that you ask permission to take a job. CULT 101. I take care of myself and my family, they don't, and I'm not asking them permission to do jack. If you need a job you better take what you can get. I didn't see the Kekels to include Grant asking permission to do anything so why in the world should you? Take your life back from those control monger cult leader freaks and stop asking permission for all that stuff.
Jeff
The Bible says you are an infidel if you don't take care of your family. Don't let these NTCC control monger freaks turn you into an infidel by telling you what jobs you can take and what ones you can't.
ReplyDeleteIf you are offered a job, take it. I'd rather take care of my family and work evenings and Saturdays than be considered an infidel by Bible standards.
If you are worried about hell, you're better off going to hell for working for a living than being considered an infidel. It's bad enough having people of other religions calling you an infidel. It's real bad when the Bible calls you an infidel and the Bible is RIGHT. Get a job and stop asking Kekel and Davis the control freaks for permission.
Jeff
Religion is Man's attempt to get to God.
ReplyDeleteJesus is God's attempt to get to Man.
I don't see Jesus anywhere in the Bible having to ask permission of God to do anything, maybe to take away a heavy burden, but never permission to do anything.
To ask to take something away verses to ask permission are two totally different things.
Jesus did everything by Free Will. He had the opportunity to sin just like everyone else. Thank God He chose the Higher Road or we would all be roasting!!
By the way, could Grant be compared to Judas? Or his father?
Bro Johnson
NTCC is Davis' attempt to get to God.
ReplyDeleteJesus is God's attempt to get to Davis.
WOW!!
Baby got Back!
Back got Baby!
Bro Johnson
So do you "ask permission" to go on leave?
ReplyDeleteDoes the military pay you for serving them? NTCC sure doesn't.
ReplyDeletebahahaha weak!
ReplyDeleteSo do you "ask permission" to go on leave?
ReplyDeleteNo I don't "ask permission". I give notification and submit the proper documentation. I've never had someone say, "you can't go on leave". Leave is an entitlement, not a privilege. If I have enough leave saved up to cover the days I've scheduled, then the leave form has always been processed. I earned it and I can take it and if I accumulate too much, then I have to take leave. It's called "use or loose".
I'm definitely not asking Mike Kekel or anyone else permission to accept a job. I'm not asking Mike Kekel permission to do anything. When Mike Kekel starts paying my bills or hires me on a "real" job which provides generous compensation for my time invested, then I'll ask him permission to get off work early for example. If I have leave accumulated, I would tell Mike Kekel I plan to take leave, I wouldn't ask him.
Somewhere in the Dark, Mike Kekel is Laughing at all of you KNOWING you all are or were suckers!!!!
ReplyDeleteI, Michael Theopolis Richie Rich Kekel, do leave my manison, my millions, my web space, and my little black book of folks who left NTCC to my unsaved
ReplyDeleteson, Grant Kekel and all of my automobiles, my guitar collection, and most importantly, my HIV Bible!!
I will all of my assets to Tammy Faye Tonya to do with as she pleases!
Sincerely, MK
That last entry should boost the comments by at least 50!!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSomewhere in the Dark, Mike Kekel is Laughing at all of you KNOWING you all are or were suckers!!!!
Jeff said...
Yep, that is about the size of it. The dude with the most money always seems to get the last laugh.
Jeff
Totally off subject here...
ReplyDeleteHave any of you ever struggled with the existance of God? I mean struggled to the point to where you are a hairline away from denying His existance?
I've been at this place for months now. The other day I almost thought about taking my life because I couldn't take the pain of everything anymore (don't worry, I'm okay now...I love life and living too much to want to end it, I was just having a REALLY, really bad week).
I feel forsaken by Him. I feel the Bible has lied to me.
I cry out to Him in my darkest hours and get nothing in reply.
But the suffering, the pain, the heartache, the misery in people's lives continues while He is silent.
I don't know what to believe anymore, if anything at all.
I am in this limbo status it seems.
Why I am posting this here, I don't know, maybe to get my thoughts out in the open.
Thank you for listening my fellow ex-ers!
Dawn, the BEST thing you can do is stop reading this blog, it is a "faith killer"!!
ReplyDeleteHi Dawn,
ReplyDeleteI know in a previous thread that I disagreed with you on some doctrinal issues and I hope that I haven't offended you or contributed in any way to what you are going through.
I don't think that God has forsaken you or any of us X-ers. I think God loves you a lot. We've all been through more than the average human being in that we have suffered spiritual and emotional damage from the cult that we were a part of. I'm guilty at times of believing the lies that were driven into us. We were made to think that God was a God of judgement and that very few had hope of eternal life. While God does have a judgmental side, He also loves us and wants us to go to heaven. I believe that God puts that decision in our hands but we have to unlearn all of the works doctrines that we were taught in the ntcc.
Dawn, I've had the same thoughts you have and I'm sure many others have also. I've wondered why some people suffer, why children are homeless and why some prosper and others don't. My personal belief is that God allows things to happen as they happen. He gives us a way out and we are fortunate and blessed with this opportunity. I think that we've been taught that we have to work our way into heaven when in actuality it's a gift. In exchange for God's love he wants us to love Him. The ntcc and other cults will tell you that loving him means adhering to a strict set of rules. This was what the old testament was all about. Man could never live up to God's law so we now live by Grace.
Dawn, we care about you and we hope that you can find peace in God. We have peace and sometimes it's difficult and many questions go unanswered but we keep going forward and God blesses us. We don't always understand why or how but we continue to trust Him. That's what faith is all about. It's more than a feeling, and we believe that if God cares for us he also cares for every human being on the planet. How he deals with each person is beyond me, but I've experienced His mercy and know He's real.
We hope this helps you and our prayers are with you. There is a lot to live for and we ask that you don't get down on yourself. You are special to God even if you don't feel like you are.
Don and Ange
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"Dawn, the BEST thing you can do is stop reading this blog, it is a "faith killer"!!"
DnA said,
So what are you doing here, anonymous? What have you personally or anyone else from the ntcc ever done to help restore someone that has left your cult? When someone leaves you say they have gone back into sin. You are the "faith killers". You are not entering in yourselves so you try to prevent others that would.
I have no use for this mentality and this attitude. Why don't you take a closer look at the judgmental group you are a part of and scrutinize them the way you scrutinize us? Why don't you expend the same amount of energy looking into the double standards of your own filthy organization (or the one you are defending) before you come on here and try to discourage others. You think you see, but you are blind. Go back to your nepotistic band of hypocrites and continue to persuade those that will listen to you. The blind follow the blind and both fall into the ditch.
Does this sound like hatred? This is righteous indignation. You have destroyed peoples lives and devoured the weak and you come to this place of refuge and try to dissuade people from finding hope outside or your cult? You really think that you are a bastion of righteousness and that nobody can be saved outside of your messed up system of control? You are the faith killers sitting there all smug in your false doctrines and double standards.
DnA
This blog is not a faith killer anonymous, it's an outlet for those who left the NTCC to come here and share stories and our expierences.
ReplyDeleteThis blog or anyone on here has nothing to do with my questioning God's existance.
But why are you on here if you consider it a buzzkill to a person's faith? =)
The Bible says that God sends rain on the just and the unjust and God maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good. So what is the moral of the story?
ReplyDeleteYou won't find a whole lot of justice here on this earth. Mat 5:45 pretty much proves that. Kekel and Davis are crooks yet they still prosper. Why? Because God makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good. Crooks can have money and prosper and history shows us that God generally doesn't prevent that from happening. So guess what? We make decisions and we live by our decisions and we die by our decisions. If you give all your money away to the church for example, it ain't Gods fault that you are broke. If you don't work enough hours or you refuse to work on Saturday, it ain't Gods fault that you are short on money.
If you watch a married couple live the good life while always having money and both the husband and the wife work like Proverbs 31, but your wife won't get a job, it's not Gods fault that you are struggling financially.
Just because Kekel and Davis have money doesn't make them Godly. Crooks have money and so do so called, "sinners". Reading this blog doesn't steal someones faith. It may however teach someone not to have dumb ignorant faith. The kind of ignorant faith the NTCC leadership wants people to have. Going full time in the ministry when you shouldn't be quitting your job. Thats STUPID and you wonder why you need a handout. Quitting your job for conference. STUPID!!!! Not taking a job because you might have to work in the evenings or on the weekend. STUPID move and you wonder why you are broke. I don't see Kekel paying your bills. Faith ain't stupidity. I'm not trying to kill anyone's faith. I'm trying to teach them not to be stupid. You are not giving your whole life to God in the NTCC. The NTCC ain't God. The NTCC ain't going to take care of you but you sure are taking care of the Kekels!!!!!! People just have to get smarter.
I know what the NTCC leadership will say now. "Dawn left the NTCC and now she is thinking about killing herself." They will say, "See, that is what happens when you leave God". Well that is hogwash. Modern day religion has screwed up Dawn's head. I didn't say God screwed up Dawn's head I said modern day religion has screwed up Dawn's head. That is right Dawn, that's how I see it. Modern day religion has taught you to be blind as a bat but God didn't tell you to be that way.
You are expecting God to do too much for you. It's true. I'll guarantee that most or all of your problems are the result of you not making good decisions while following the advise of some religious idiot. God isn't going to make sound decisions for you. He expects you to think for yourself. If you let someone make decisions for you and it results in you being screwed up that is not Gods fault. I don't need to be led around on a chain by some false prophet. I'm doing a whole lot better without the likes of Oberhauser, Kekel, Ramirez, Mayers, Ashmore, Jones or RDUB getting involved in my business. The same Bible that says obey them is the same Bible that says beware of false prophets. I'm not going to obey false prophets like the ones running around misleading people in the NTCC.
What I'm saying is get religion out of your head long enough so you can start thinking logically and rationally and don't just blindly follow everyone who calls himself a pastor. That is not wrecking someone's faith, that is an attempt to teach them some common sense. God doesn't expect you to be stupid. You have to get all this "religion" out of your head and start out fresh. Then you can find God and find some happiness. People who don't even go to church are a whole lot happier than most NTCCers, I'll guarentee it. If you are broke, get a job. Don't just sit around waiting for God to give you a handout.
Chief
I don't know what problems you are having Dawn but you have to get your head clear. I have too much going on in my life to wonder why God does this or God does that. I have a family to take care of and my wife teaches first grade. We are both too busy to get rapped up in all that. I don't blame all my problems on God and I also don't wait for God to fix all of them. I need a job? I go look for one. If I have problems with my wife? I talk to her and work it out or we don't talk at all. God ain't going to fix all your problems and you shouldn't expect him to. God is not our maid. If my car is broke then I need to get it fixed. I'm not going to pray and ask God to fix my car when there is a service station right around the corner. "Take everything to the Lord in prayer"?
ReplyDeleteDo you pray to God to help you brush your teeth? Do you pray to God to fix your pillow when it's not comfortable at night? Do you pray to God to help you brush your hair? Yeah I might pray to God to help me find a job but then I'm going out looking and if I don't get one that still ain't Gods fault. Get a better degree. If you are sick, try to find a better doctor. You can't expect God to do what you can do and then when it doesn't happen you loose faith in him. Does your marriage suck? Join the other fifty million people in the world. All I know is my life is a whole lot better since I left the NTCC.
If a church is screwing up my life, then I'm better off without it and that has nothing to do with faith or the lack thereof.
Chief
I like you Chief...
ReplyDeleteI wrote something a bit similar on my blog yesterday.
I said if we want something done, we need to do it ourselves because we can pray 30,40,60 years and wait for it to happen but it never does.
You are right though, I do need to get my head cleared from religion and start over. What a mess.
If anyone from NTCC is reading this and thinks I have left God, think again, I never said I left Him. I never said I stopped Believing. I haven't become an atheist.
I am questioning. It's good to question, to seek answers, to seek the truth out.
It's been 10 years this month since I've been saved and it's time to do an AAR (after actions review) of my walk. Where I am going...what do I really believe..where do I stand on certain issues, etc.
I hope your issues get worked out soon Chief.
Dawn.. I am stepping back in to ask you if you would to read this article.. I know I am not an exer but I think this article I posted on my blog will possibly help you. I did not write it but did get permission from the author to repost it
ReplyDeletehttp://ntccpasadenatx.org/blogs2/2011/08/lover-or-prostitute-the-question-that-changed-my-life-by-david-ryser/
Have not posted here in months, just saw you note and had heard good things about you and that all there is to it!
ReplyDeleteI don't think that there has not been a time in most believers lives that at some point and time that they started to question the existence of God. I don't mean deny, but at least question it. Even Charles Spurgeon in his mind did the same thing. For most believers I personally believe that it's a phase that they/we go through and certainly nothing to be afraid of.
ReplyDeleteDawn said...
ReplyDeleteI hope your issues get worked out soon Chief.
Chief said...
Thank you but you may have misunderstood me. I was just giving examples to suit the discussion. Currently, (as far as I can tell) I don't have any issues. Things (seem) to be all going great in my life. I have a great job, great relationship, plenty of money (of course that is relative) as I wouldn't turn down some extra but I'm doing fine. The examples I gave were exactly that, just arbitrary examples that weren't (currently) applicable to me.
Chief
Marc Perez left a comment on the Lack Of Common Decency Thread. Seems he was the one that the olsons 'dissed' in that story...
ReplyDeleteyou know chief, I guess we all come to this fork in our lives where we ask ourselves what have we done with our lives specially when we are going through some very hard times. Maybe that is what Dawn is saying here. I've been in her situation where I'm not questioning if there's a God or my salvation at all, but just wondering, okay, I've done all these things supposedly for God and here I'm still going through hard times and don't see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.
ReplyDeleteI was just wondering the other day about how that many of the leaders in the org. really don't go out soulwinning like they asks us to and they forever are saying that it is a sign of our salvation if you don't go out and spread the good news. I remember being told time and time again that if you are saved you will go out and try to reach somebody for God. Somebody told me that the father or mrs. olson died a few moths ago and it dawn on me that in all the years that I've been around, I never knew if she ever visited him or nothing to that effect and it affected me because these are people who are next to God so to speak and they are the examples to us and yet they haven't reached anybody of their family to God, so what is the deal here. I'm sorry if this doesn't bring glory to God but I just had this in my heart.
Thank you for allowing people to post here in this forum, Jeff.
Dawn,
ReplyDeleteI questioned the existence of God while I was in NTCC more than since I have been out of NTCC. It's all in what you choose to believe. Some people leave NTCC and go into a life of sin. Some people leave and enjoy a much better life as a Christian. I hated my life in the NTCC. I was suicidal before I found NTCC. Then I realized that I could not commit suicide. Then I spent about 10 years in the NTCC and began to wish that God would kill me. So I guess the only difference was that instead of looking for a way to do it, I had to ask God to kill me so I wouldn't go to hell.
So don't tell me that if you "just stay in the ntcc boat" you won't have thoughts of wanting to die. I talked to Rev. Kekel just this week. He still doesn't get it how that the NTCC made it hard for people to meet and fall in love and have a normal life (i.e. get to know someone, fall in love, and get married). He tried to tell me how that all the servicemen's works pastors reach out to women just as much as men because I told him NTCC makes life for men like living in a monastery by having ministries that reach out to mostly single g.i.'s. I don't know how he can say that when I sat in Malsingh's soul-winning meetings over and over and listened to him tell all of us (men and women) to reach out to single g.i.'s. He would literally ignore civilians.
Oh ya, and ladies, if you are or were in military serviceman's works with your husbands, Kekel blamed you for the fact that there are so few women in NTCC. He says it's because the wives don't reach out to women. How can they when they don't even go soul-winning? My question is this: Does anyone know what NTCC's policy is about pastor's wives and soul-winning? I had to update the soul-winning data-base for Malsingh, and I remember his wife had a very short list of women that she was "dealing" with. It made me very upset at that time to see that she had very little soul-winning responsibility when she could have been reaching out to women and following up on them and maybe helping the situation in the organization where you have 30 year old men still single and teenage women being set up for marriage.
women most likely didn't come (or stay if they did come) due to the rules and wierd guidance of pastors.
ReplyDeleteIn germany, there was this lady coming to church (she was in the military) and I was being friendly to her and things without any motives in mind. I could tell it was frowned upon by the pastor.
One time, on a weekend, we were all sitting around in just reading the bible at a table.
God dealt with me to talk with her, to go for a walk or something but I shoved that down and didn't do it because of the "pastor".
the pastor even said something along the lines of
"it's great to be here reading our bibles... at least some of us are satisfied" calling me out indirectly.
If that were to happen all over again today, I'd stand up and say something and would follow what I know was God wanting me to do something.
Anyway, she stopped coming out... she was really interested in knowing God too, but the ntcc cult methods chased her away.
doug hardy
now that i think about it,
ReplyDeletei think ntcc wide, we were told that men soulwin men and women soulwin women because otherwise sin may occur.
if a woman did come out, you were looked at with suspicious eyes just for trying to be a normal person.
another topic:
"instead of pimpin hoes, they pimp the fold. they have an offering for this, and an offering for that, i'm putting money in, everytime the pimp passes his hat"
it was smart of davis to make sure we did/ didn't do things:
1. were in every service
2. didn't do anything that would use our money (business or school)
3. didn't visit family or go traveling on vacation
4. didn't buy anything other than food
5. would eat their free food they offered
this left us with lots more money to put in his offerings, otherwise he wouldn't have as much.
doug hardy
As far as "Kekel just not getting it". He never will. It's a choice that he made years ago if he wants to stay in the good graces of his Father in Law and his wife. His wife is really nothing more than a female prototype of R'Dub. That must be a hard cross for him to bear, Knowing that he is under his wife's watchful eye, and any deviation will result in his possible removal. Unless, of course, she is in on whatever they might be doing at the moment. I really, really resent her. She just comes across as overly opinionated, loud, and "In your face". I wanted to really "open up" on her when I had my meeting with them. I suppose I'm glad I didn't. It's like I wanted to tell her, "Who invited you here anyway?" From the little time I was there at that meeting with them, It didn't take me long to realize just how materialistic she really is. I actually thought that Mike Kekel (Despite all of his spinning, Clintonesque answers) was the more pleasant person to talk to.
ReplyDeleteJust a word to the wise. If you want to have a meeting with Mike Kekel, Save your time and effort. It's not even worth it. If you happen to be visiting the State of Washington and you drive by the Graham Compound the best thing to do is just keep stepping. Your time would be better spent visiting loved ones, friends, or just going up to Mount Rainier National Park, or seeing some of the sights and wonders that the State has to offer. Go by and see where Mom and Pop Gaylord are buried. I think I could have gotten more answers out of Mom and Pop than I did out of Mike Kekel. (and they have been dead for close to 15 years)I did get to visit with Bruce Smith though. Nice guy. And I always look forward to seeing Larry and Charla Travis. Later, Mark
Speaking of wives, I remember Matt Wadsworth posting on FACTnet back in the day about how Mike K tried to throw a wrench into the relationship he was trying to cultivate with a Russian girl who was coming to NTCC services. He told Matt that he wasn't allowed to talk to her. But it turns out that Matt is no milk-toast; he called Kekel out and demanded to know what rule he was breaking, since the girl wasn't even a student. Of course there was no legitimate response, just a sort of "well, you still can't because I said so" type of attitude. Matt, (whose testicles must be large enough to exert tidal forces on the ocean) didn't cave to this raw coercion; instead he removed himself from the cloud of pesky rules for good and married the girl. They ended up moving to Fairbanks, and I think still lives up here; last I knew they had three or four kids.
ReplyDeleteI remember back in St. Louis how RW made it crystal clear that he had no sympathy for our plight: "I don't care if you EVER get married," he would bellow, right before going home to bang his second wife.
Mike McGuire and I got lucky one semester and had a Wednesday evening free. We decided to visit some other churches looking for wives. We went to some storefront church, and it was packed with nubile young women. There were a couple of women who were trying to pastor this church, I think, and one of them wanted us to come and preach for them when they heard we were bible school students. She asked us who our pastor was, and when we said RW Davis, she visibly started, and we couldn't miss the alarmed look on her face. I wish I'd have had enough sense to pump her for info then, but we didn't dare entertain "evil thoughts" (aka "the truth") about the "man of God." We were excited about going back, but then we got under some false guilt about it and decided not to and never did. So we were single for years to come. I managed to get married right after graduation (after a three month "courtship"), but when the male:female ration is about 10:1, that wasn't going to happen for everyone.
All the ministers wives' I have had in NTCC (4) have participated in soul winning and bringing people out to church.
ReplyDeleteThey would usually go soul winning with their husbands though, but I've seen these wives go and check up / call their contacts.
That's just my expierence though =)
Vic,
ReplyDeletethat last post had me rolling a good 5 min I almost fell off the chair in stiches!
LMAO!!
or,
LMDO!! (Laughing my Donkey Off)
Bro Johnson
LMLO!!
ReplyDelete"Laughing my Lizard Off"
LMCO!!
"Laughing my Cat Off"
LMPTTTKO
"Laughing My Permission To Talk To Kekel Off"
This is FUN!!
Bro Johnson
Off topic, but relevant with what MDR mentioned some time ago about the amount of the escrow in Killeen, TX when he left ($279,000)
ReplyDeleteIf you break it down it for the years that it would take to build this using the 60/40 system for the tithe fund (tithe throughout the week and Sunday AM service offering) it would be like this (Assuming 52 weeks and no money diverted for revivals/paying for pastor's trips to conferences or the first class tickets, suits/shoes, and hotel of RWD):
1 Year
Weekly Escrow Deposit - $5,365.38
Weekly Tithe Fund Deposit - $7,511.54
5 Years
Weekly Escrow Deposit - $1,073.08
Weekly Tithe Fund Deposit - $1,502.31
10 Years
Weekly Escrow Deposit - $536.54
Weekly Tithe Fund Deposit - $751.15
15 Years
Weekly Escrow Deposit - $357.69
Weekly Tithe Fund Deposit - $500.77
20 Years
Weekly Escrow Deposit - $268.27
Weekly Tithe Fund Deposit - $375.58
25 Years
Weekly Escrow Deposit - $214.62
Weekly Tithe Fund Deposit - $300.46
This would assume that there never was a draw from the escrow for the pastor, major repairs, or building expenses or purchases. This church has traditionally been full time for the pastors that have went there, so there has been certainly enough to pay the living expenses of the pastor, plus they have lodging at the Servicemen's Home. So how much does this church clear in its General Fund and Tithe Funds and what are its on-going expenses? Maybe MDR can chime in here....
This isn't off the subject, but exactly on the subject.
ReplyDeleteRev. Kekel impressed me with the fact that he was willing to talk to me last time I called him (just recently). It is hard not to have mixed feelings about him. He seems to genuinely not be convicted about anything he is doing or is a part of or that he supports despite how it has hurt so much of us. He claims that the property was granted to him in his name was mere paperwork and is not truly his, and that it had to do with Pierce County not allowing the org to do something so they put it in Rev. Kekel's name so they could do it. He says that the one dollar grant to Rev. Davis wasn't really truly granted to him, but he actually did buy the house, and he claims there is no pool there.
The subject came up about how that preachers have to send their money to Graham instead of their tithe staying in their local church where they are ministering. He claimed it didn't go to Graham. I said I had to send it to Graham every week. I asked where does the money go. He ASKED ME IF I WAS RECORDING THIS CONVERSATION before he answered me. How strange. What is he? Richard Nixon? Does he have something to hide? He said the money goes towards buying buildings. Then later in the convo he said it is used for a wide variety of things for the organization. I think he said this because I pinned him down when I said, the only thing I see getting built up is Graham? He tried to act like nothing had been built up at Graham. Like I didn't notice the Graham Chapel, Education building and Fellowship/lecture hall, etc. I think he thinks we are just blind. He started naming all these things that the org has to pay for like paying the expenses for overseers going to visit churches when the pastors and their helpers are having a quarrel. I suppose they must spend millions on that per year (sure). The local assemblies probably front the expenses plenty of times for stuff like that.
Continued...
ReplyDeleteI asked why the local churches can't just keep control of the money they raise? The org doesn't do anything for the local congregations besides have a conference for them anyway and give them a seminary to send people to. He asked if I knew what would happen if the pastors had control of the money, and asked if I thought they should. I said, yes. Not a Pastor Davis-appointed pastor, but a pastor selected out of the congregation. He said we don't vote for pastors. I told him he can't prove that they didn't vote in the NT, and cited the 7 deacons selected by the congregation- not the apostles- to oversee the daily ministration for the widows in the book of Acts.
He said if the local pastors had control of the money, the churches would fail. I said churches fail after doing it your way too. Look at Parkland and Puyallup. He began to rebuke me for jumping to conclusions about things I didn't know about. I asked him to explain then. What happened to Parkland? He said Parkland didn't fail. The landlord was going to raise the rent way too high, and they were going to lose their pastor anyway because he was going to the field. I said wait a minute. They were going to send the pastor anyway? So you are saying that whether or not the landlord raised the rent, they were going to send the pastor out on the field? That doesn't make any sense. You must mean that they were going to send him out on the field BECAUSE the landlord was going to raise the rent. What? If the rent had not been raised then they would just send out the pastor without replacing him? That doesn't make any sense. He told me to wait because he had another call. I waited, but kept the subject in my mind. He came back and tried to close the call. I said what is your answer? Were they going to send him away even if they hadn't raised the rent? He kept saying, he already explained it to me, and I didn't understand, so why should he explain it again, and maybe I should take a math class. I said, no, tell me which part I misunderstood. I think I caught you. Weren't they going to close it down either way and bring the people to Graham to build up your church, Rev. Kekel?
Also Rev. Kekel kept saying how that Rev. Davis paid more than any of us. I think he even said more than all of us combined. I told him we gave out of our substance. Biblically, we gave more if we gave out of what we needed just for basic things. Jesus didn't say the rich men who lived luxuriously and gave a lot of money gave more than the woman who gave 2 pence. He said she gave more.
"He claims that the property was granted to him in his name was mere paperwork and is not truly his, and that it had to do with Pierce County not allowing the org to do something so they put it in Rev. Kekel's name so they could do it."
ReplyDeleteWell, that's a totally new spin. That's not what Olson said; he said that RW bought the land with his personal money, and it was put in the org's name "in case they might need it." When it was determined that they didn't, he gave it to his daughter and son-in-law (never mind the fact that it was no longer his to give) instead. There was no mention of Pierce County. So now it's being subdivided, and presumably houses will be built. If this whole maneuver was in order to overcome Pierce County's hindrance of that strategy by NTCC, then we can expect Mike to give the property back once the houses are all built. If that ever does happen, it will be an excellent example of the strategies this org uses to evade regulatory control.
But don't hold your breath.
Kris, good job at trying to get some direct answer. MCK is slicker than snot and its hard to pin him down on anything. For example, ask him about his Classmates.com webpage. A few years back RWD made a comment about the org paying him back for teh $600K that he gave to buy the land where the Bonco compound and his and MCK's new house are at. The 39 acres are not easily digged into by the Pierce County website and you'd probably either have to talk to a Title company or go down to the County Auditor's office to find out when RWD transferred it over to NTCC's name. Anything in NTCC's name will always benefit thoses within the General Board or the pharoah sitting on top of this pyramid scheme, RWD.
ReplyDeletetrying to see if i could find info on the land deal but nothing so far.
ReplyDeletei did find that ntcc is still doing business also under the name of new testament church of god
i saw something in 2004 some dealings with someone named kim ingrid.... not sure what it's all about.
here's a link
http://hartweb.co.pierce.wa.us/search.asp?cabinet=opr
looks like they operate under various similar names
new testament christian church
new testament church of god
new testament christ college
NT christian churches of america
there are several of the $10.00 deals. one by a bono
not sure who kim ingrid is but there were several things in 2004
with the auditors link,
ReplyDeletei think you can bring up the land gift from ntcc to kekel but you have to put in the name of
kekel, tanya, then search.
there is a 2004 document and i believe that is it
looks like gesang in 2010 was doing some business with some apartments as well.
ReplyDeletei think he was selling it but i'm not sure. it was with westwood square apartments
that's where all the money goes kris.
ReplyDeleteto get more real estate for the elite.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletethere are several of the $10.00 deals. one by a bono not sure who kim ingrid is but there were several things in 2004
Chief said....
I've been saying this all along but the activity in 2004 was likely the result of the split. That is around the time the split took place. The NTCC just lost a bunch of ministers and Denis had tossed out a few threats. I suspect the NTCC leadership started juggling around land and such as a result of the split in an attempt to protect their real estate interests. I could be totally wrong but it's quite coincidental that right after the split RDUB takes 39 acres of land out of the NTCCs name and puts it in Kekels. That sure would protect it against the NTCC getting sued. Just a thought.
Chief
Seems logical to me, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteVic,
Your point about Rev. Olson's explanation of the land grant to Rev. Kekel reminded me of what he said to me when I asked him about it. Rev. Kekel says it was all just a way for the org to be able to use the land for the church, but Rev. Olson told me, that I "know" that Rev. Kekel has been a blessing to the org., and that he has helped the org. financially. Sounds like he was admitting to me that Davis wanted to reward him with a land grant.
Anonymous, you said it is hard to find the paperwork that shows when Davis GAVE the land to NTCC. The reason it's so hard is because the paperwork doesn't show that it was EVER in Davis' name, as far as I could tell. The way I saw it was crystal clear after researching online and reading various documents that were available to the public and talking to Pierce Co. officials that the land went from the timber co. to NTCC, and from NTCC to Rev. Kekel. That's just the point. Clearly, the land did not legally belong to Rev. Davis. When you bring this point up to Rev. Olson, or Rev. Kekel, and corner them, they only say that the land was purchased with Rev. Davis' funds- NOT that it was in his name.
Does anyone know about the PCG church that supposedly Rev. Davis belonged to? I tried calling a Pentecostal Church of God and talked to the secretary in the office of their bishop and she said they don't think RW Davis was ever a part of their org., but she said there are other "Pentecostal Church of God"s. Does anyone have a phone number of the specific group he was with? I would like to talk to someone first-hand who knew Rev. Davis personally or knew of him.
ReplyDeletei have to go back to sleep (my wife got home and woke me up briefly)
ReplyDeletebut what I found as a start that you could start and continue with is of course
1. look at their history at their website for names and locations....
2. you can use google books to. there i found their (PCG) bylaws the same statement about tithes and giving and how its only to be used for the work of the lord and not given to charities or people in need. the same statement davis used in the ntcc by laws.
3. i didn't find much in the news archives but you may have to dig around more. news.google.com
you can choose the year by decades as well as click on archives for items that are really old.
"Rev. Olson told me, that I "know" that Rev. Kekel has been a blessing to the org., and that he has helped the org. financially."
ReplyDeleteI and many others were also a blessing to the org and helped financially...where are our sweet land parcels?
"Does anyone know about the PCG church that supposedly Rev. Davis belonged to?"
ReplyDeleteContact Les Rinehart. I believe that he has interacted with PCG HQ (he lives nearby) and confirmed that at the time RW resigned, he was facing sexual misconduct charges. Les has tracked down and talked to a number of people who did know RW back in the day, and I think he also contacted at least one of the women involved in the scandal who corroborated it. I speculate that one of the reasons the HQ was moved from St. Louis was that RW has too much baggage there.
Kris, it should still be the same as www.pcg.org but I think that the church that was on Carondelet Avenue is now called Southside Pentecostal Church of God in St Louis. Their HQ is in Joplin, Missouri and as Vic said, there are people that know him from that area in the PCOG and also independent holiness churches within the Midwest.
ReplyDeleteVic said...
ReplyDeleteI speculate that one of the reasons the HQ was moved from St. Louis was that RW has too much baggage there.
Jeff said...
I'd bet my last dollar that your assessment is right on the money.
Chief
kris,
ReplyDeletehere's some factnet archives of people that seem to know about it. some have posted their emails and dont mind contact (at least back when it was written)
hope it helps.
http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/archive/index.php/t-11804.html
Kris,
ReplyDeleteR.W.'s story is quite the tale. He was originally converted during a foot washing service in the General Baptist Church in St. Louis in 1955, where he received the call to preach. He was already divorced and remarried a few years before. He later joined the Pentecostals and became a missionary to the Philippines during the mid-1960s. At that time, the Pentecostal Church of God was the only Pentecostal denomination that would license "double-married" ministers under any circumstances.
He became a missionary to the Philippines, working with the late C.L. Barnes who was killed in a jeep accident, whose widow still survives to this day and lives in Neosho, Mo., where she is the ladies' dorm mother at Ozark Bible Institute, the only remaining holiness college in the Assemblies of God. (This college accepts veterans' educational benefits, and is an excellent alternative to NTCS!)
R.W. took the pastorate of the Carondelet Pentecostal Church (PCG) on Marceau Blvd. in south St. Louis, now known as Friendship Assembly Of God, circa 1968. They had issues within the PCG trying to retain their "holiness standards" fellowshipping among churches that had become quite liberal since he left for the mission field 5 years earlier, and so started NTCC (known until 1987 as NTCG, New Testament Church of God) in 1969, along with Mom & Pop Gaylord, who pulled out of the PCG at the same time. (The current NTCC by-laws are almost verbatim to those of the PCG.) NTCG began fellowshipping with Independent Holiness churches such as Bethel Chapel in Granite City, Illinois, and Davis would send the "MBI" Bible school students (Midwestern Bible Institute, as it was called at that time) to preach there, and even took them to camp meeting at Sunset Hill Pentecostal Campground in Edwardsville, Illinois. (These places are all still in existence, and have web sites.)
However, during this time Davis had been carrying on affairs with no less than 3 women in the Carondelet church, and was even threatened with a gun after a church service by an angry husband of one of the women! After this huge blow-up, Davis and his remaining loyal followers moved over to Forest Avenue. (Davis was already heavily invested in real estate in St. Louis.) For a while a few visiting Independent preachers continued to come by to preach until Davis finally decided to just cut them off. There is MUCH more history I would be glad to share with you, but this should give you a rough idea! This info comes from my visits with Independent Holiness pastors in 5 states, plus my history in NTCC, mostly during the 1980s.
- Les R., Joplin Mo.
Wow! Thanks for all the excellent feedback. I want to do some research on this just to talk to some of those people myself. I woulda never had thunk it back in the day!
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, back at the Range....
ReplyDeleteSo Pastor Davis had affairs. So what. He's repented of all his sins just like the rest of us. That doesn't mean he is not saved. Pastor Davis is a good man.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSo Pastor Davis had affairs. So what. He's repented of all his sins just like the rest of us. That doesn't mean he is not saved. Pastor Davis is a good man.
All of this is fine and good. But, The last I heard, He can't remember the last time he sinned. Would you like to address that?
I talked to someone over the phone for about 45 minutes a few years ago who has known R'Dub since 1962. Nice guy. He went into detail about pretty much everything Les said and then some.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"So Pastor Davis had affairs. So what. He's repented of all his sins just like the rest of us. That doesn't mean he is not saved. Pastor Davis is a good man."
DnA said:
This explains why so many marriages have been destroyed by this narcisist. God instituted marriage and intended for it to be a life long committment, but we see here that Davis completely dishonors God by compelling others to leave their wives or husbands to benefit his filthy and sleezy organization called the ntcc.
This is not a good man who has repented, but rather an egotistical control monger who like a parasite feeds off of the flesh of those who allow it. He is a user and an abuser. People need to stop making excuses for him. You ntcc'rs need to confront him and ask him to clarify his past. Go up to him in front of a bunch of loyal brethren and say, "I heard you have had multiple affairs with multiple women, is this true? " "Why don't you write a "This is Me" paper and send a copy to every person in the ntcc and ask their forgiveness for your judgmental attitude toward them?" Has he truly repented? If he has, he would treat the institution of marriage with a lot more respect than he does.
If he had received mercy for his actions than he would be merciful in return to those that he has shunned. This man is nothing but an egotistical narcisist and we will call him out on this. Someone should take him on a trip down memory lane the next time he says he can't remember the last time he sinned and that all he does is by the Holy Ghost. What a sham. When you are the head of an organization that has so many hypocritical rules and control parameters that influence every area of peoples lives for the sole purpose of extracting money from them, you better be living a spotless life or you are going to end up with lots of egg in your face and feasting on crow for your remaining miserable days on this earth. If this isn't a wake-up call, I don't know what is. I believe in mercy and have definitely received my share of it, but lets be real here. Confession and true repentance is the only exceptable course of action here, but when your conscience is seared with a hot iron you will only run and hide.
That's why the ntcc leadership will not face these issues honestly and appologize because as they have shown through the years, that there is not a merciful bone in their body. They think nothing of running people off when their usefulness has been worn out. These are not the actions of someone who has repented nor of a good man.
DnA
What's also crazy is that NTCCers will say that these are old accusations or if this did happen with these women at the Carondelet Church of God, then can't we forgive the man. Ok, so this may have been 40 years ago but what about the lady that came forward some time ago about RWD visiting her while her husband was at work. You see, people can repent and be delivered from all kinds of sins but when someone is unwilling to repent or admit any wrong then their character remains unchanged. NTCCers are right about one thing, RWD hasn't changed...
ReplyDeleteSo Pastor Davis had affairs. So what. He's repented of all his sins just like the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteOnly a select few get a free adultery pass in the org.
When did he say he couldn't remember the last time he sinned? Pastor Davis has shown people a lot of love. If he didn't start the NTCC a lot of people wouldn't be saved. If he did something 40 years ago and notice I said if, it's all under the blood now. He's on his way to heaven and shouting victory singing glory hallelujah, Jesus set him free.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with R'Dub is this: He sets himself up as some kind of shining example to be emulated. He can get up in the pulpit and shred tender hearts to the point of no return and have someone in total despair over the matter. He can get personal(way to personal)when he is correcting someone. He comes across as arrogant, and as someone who uses intimidation and manipulation to get people to do things. Perhaps he no longer uses the expression "I can't remember the last time I sinned", But he has used it in times gone past. With the rise of Computers and Blogsites such as this one, as well as places like Factnet he has had to change things. (At least in a superficial way) to try and get under the radar. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. He doesn't have anything from God that anyone else doesn't have. He doesn't have any kind of "Special Anointing" or "Esoteric" knowledge of God. I don't care how many prophetic messages he utters, I don't care how many different tongues he speaks in, or any of the other things that come along with much of what is wrong with Pentecostalism today. The best of men are men at VERY BEST!
ReplyDeleteWhen all else fails, Look at the FRUIT!!! Not the signs and wonders. Not the hype, and the sensationalism, Just look at the Fruit.
He's on his way to heaven ... did rdub kick the bucket?
ReplyDeleteAnon asked, "did rdub kick the bucket?"
ReplyDeleteWhen he does, he'll probably, in his own words, "split hell wide open"! davis never forgave anyone who did him wrong and taught that the thief on the cross was hell bound. Why would it be any different for him? The bible says you only get forgiveness as you forgive others. That fruit does not exist in rdub's long and destructive reign of terror. davis is probably quaking at the thought of the pending judgment. Why? Because all his life davis presented a God of judgment, an unforgiving God Who punishes people that don't live up to davis doctrines and rules. davis will reap what he has sown. And he will receive the same mercy he has shown-none! That's a fact.
"When did he say he couldn't remember the last time he sinned?"
ReplyDeleteI've heard him say it. "Didn't sin today, didn't sin yesterday...can't remember the last time I sinned." Maybe he's telling the truth; maybe there are so many that he just can't keep track...
And All The Cows said....MOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo!
ReplyDeleteVery peaceful. To everything there is a season.
ReplyDeleteChief
Dawn,
ReplyDeleteI really think you should call Rev. Bellamy. Email me if you need his number.
I really thought I was over everything, but seeing that he had left brought a lot of feelings flooding back.
Talking with him after the fact really helped. He's been in the same boat, and has felt the questioning too.
Big hugs Dawn.
Vic said:
ReplyDelete"I've heard him say it. "Didn't sin today, didn't sin yesterday...can't remember the last time I sinned."
DnA said:
Maybe he has Alzheimer's or selective memory. Or maybe he has invented his own definition of sin.
From the Davis exhaustive dictionary sin is defined as: Anything a common person does that irritates a narcissist or anything that makes a person feel good and gives them self confidence or anything that brings happiness and joy into someones life other than their own.
Whatever the case may be, there is definitely a mental disorder that goes along with an attitude that allows you to think this way. Rwd is so good at finding faults in others and openly rebuking them that you have to wonder how many skeletons he has hidden in his closet. He probably would have been one of the first to throw a stone when that women taken in adultery was brought before Jesus. If you asked her twenty years later, do you think she would remember the last time she sinned?
I think she would and she wouldn't have to go back twenty years in time either.
I'm glad that there is such a thing as mercy and grace. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't needed. Mercy and grace are available to those that ask for them but I doubt they are there for people who don't think they need any.
DnA
RWD is full of it. He knows good and well he's sinned just like everyone else at one point in time or another and he remembers it unless he's reprobate. For him to make that very statement was a sin. The reason he can't remember is because he no longer has a conscience. Rev Briggs calls that being reprobate.
ReplyDeleteEither RWD no longer has a conscience or he is a flat out liar or more likely a combination of the two.
It was a sin when RDUB said, "If you have a problem with one of my pastors you have a problem with me, and if you have a problem with me you have a problem with God".
That was when Denis was still around the NTCC and the NTCC leadership has since claimed that Denis was a devil. I know some people had a problem with Denis so did that mean they had a problem with God? RWD is full of it. I can't believe I sat there listening to him say that junk. I'd love to be in the congregation and hear him say that garbage now. I'd stand up and tell him openly in front of everyone that he is full of himself and full of crap. Oh was that a "sanctified" curse word? What is worse, saying someone is full of crap or likening yourself to God like RWD did? I can have all kinds of problems with RWD and his abusive pastors without having a problem with God. Paul had a problem with Peter and Peter was God's spokesman for certain. How much more ok is it for me to have a problem with RWD the blowhard and his abusive pastors?
Chief
I totally agree with the comments about that CULT!!! My daughter and her husband were mixed up with that bunch of lunatics for 14 years. Thank GOD ALMIGHTY that my daughter finally woke up and gave her husband an ultimatum. EITHER THE CHURCH OR US. My poor grandson did not even begin to have a decent life until they moved away from all the BS that the Davis clan had them tied to.
ReplyDeleteI AM SO PROUD OF MY KIDS. they are doing well and would never have what they do if they continued to give away their hard earned money to those jokers in Washington!!!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI AM SO PROUD OF MY KIDS. they are doing well and would never have what they do if they continued to give away their hard earned money to those jokers in Washington!!!
Chief said...
Boy that is the truth. Those jokers are all take and little or no give. They'll suck you dry. I'm glad your kids are out of that mess. For all it's worth, a lot of people got and get involved in the NTCC. The NTCC leadership is very subtle and crafty with their recruiting techniques. I'm glad your daughter laid down the law and I'm also glad your son in law wasn't so brainwashed to pick the NTCC over his wife. Unfortunately too many spouses have picked the NTCC over their significant other.
The NTCC leadership thrives on breaking up marriages. They love it when someone leaves their husband or wife to stay with the NTCC. When that happens the sick NTCC leadership says the spouse who left their husband or wife was leaving the devil for God. That is such a bunch of garbage and it's sick and it's against the Bible.
I'd say it's the other way around. Staying with you spouse is the "Godly" choice and leaving your spouse for the NTCC is like leaving them for the devil. The Bible doesn't advocate leaving your spouse for some cult church.
Chief
I don't know what your talking about. I have flown to Panama 2 times in 3 years each for 10-14 days to visit. My parents in Wisconsin I went 2 time in the last year. I may go again very soon. Also we were always encouraged to talk and stay in contact with family. I call my dad almost everyday. He's not a christian. And I Pastor a church in NTCC. So what ever your talking about I don't know about. I have been around nearly 30 years.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSo what ever your talking about I don't know about. I have been around nearly 30 years.
Chief said...
If you are being sincere, you are blind as a bat. I only spent 10 years with the NTCC and I can't tell you how many times I witnessed the NTCC leadership encourage church members to forsake and or leave family and loved ones for the sake of staying with the church. I saw it happen to a lady in my church who was almost 60 years old. The pastor and his wife were trying to get this lady to leave her husband who wasn't a part of the NTCC. I had a pastor who didn't want me to go to my own uncles funeral and tried to discourage me from visiting family. The NTCC tried to break up the Shunks and they tried to drive a wedge between the Reeds as well. What, didn't you read where they wrote that? Like I said, blind as a bat. You are living in a fantasy world if you didn't witness all the divorces that take place in the NTCC. If you are a minister like you say you are I know you had to see it. The NTCC tries to make you pick; either us or them. Cult big time.
You've been with the NTCC for 30 years and you've never witnessed the break ups which were encouraged by the NTCC leadership? You must be kidding? You see people this is what I'm talking about. 30 years in the NTCC and blind and a pastor!!! When the blind leads the blind, both SHALL fall in the ditch.
Chief
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"I don't know what your talking about. I have flown to Panama 2 times in 3 years each for 10-14 days to visit. My parents in Wisconsin I went 2 time in the last year. I may go again very soon. Also we were always encouraged to talk and stay in contact with family."
DnA said:
First of all, how is flying to Panama relevant to this discussion? Second, you sound totally fried. Burnt out on ntcc. You should try gathering your thoughts together and read before posting. I know 13 years in the ntcc fried my brain, I can't imagine what 30 years has done to your's.
Can you really say without feeling a twinge of guilt for lying that in the thirty years you've been in the borg that you have not noticed how anti family the ntcc is? Have you never witness this stellar group of professional religious hit men influencing people to forsake their families? I am going to be totally honest with you and I would appreciate the same in return.
I can't count the number of times that I've heard so called pastors tell the brethren that if they were not willing to forsake family that they were unworthy of the kingdom of God. I'm not just talking about quoting scripture either. There were so many times that brethren wanted to go home on leave and they were told not to because the devil would fight them and they would not come back saved. I've seen people get their fields plowed and seen brothers change their minds about taking leave because the cult leader that they thought was a pastor influenced them to do so. I've also heard over and over that we were to "Let the dead bury their dead".
I almost left my mom to die because the pressure was so great to go back to Korea. I'm so glad I had enough decency and common sense not to forsake her during her last days on this planet.
Sir, if you really believe this load of donkey dung that you are pedaling you need professional help. I think that you must be lying because there is no way, whatsoever, that you can make the statements that you have made having been in the ntcc for 30 years. I will however give you the benefit of the doubt only because people like you are so brainwashed that they actually believe the stuff that's been pounded into their heads so many times.
Let's take tithe for instance. 30 years in the org or borg and you can't show me one scripture in the new testament that commands people to pay 10% cash off the top, and yet I would bet 50 bucks to a bucket of buffalo chips that you preach "All Christians pay tithes and give in offerings", which means that if you don't pay tithe you are on your way to hell, right?
Sorry but you ntcc'rs really need help. I know that you have your mind made up and there is nothing we can say to make you realize that your are part of a group that adds to and takes away from the scriptures. You are part of a group that believes it is the last move of God on earth. You follow people and support their lavish life styles as they live according to a different gospel than that which they preach and expect you to live by.
But I'm sure that you will find an excuse to keep right on believing the facade and you will continue to turn a blind eye to those you have been given charge over as they waste their youth contributing to the excess in Graham Washington. They will one day become just like you and that is the sad truth. We hope you pray through and get a hold of God so you can see the toll that the ntcc has taken on you, your peers and your followers.
DnA
"full of crap", be sure you teach that to your kids, fine talk. Why don't just curse?
ReplyDeleteso, where does it say NOT TO PAY TITHE? I do both, tithe and offerings. I AM NOT BROKE. I am not trusting in a retirement check. Also my wife is not a slave of some sinners time clock neither.
ReplyDeleteSo, why am I blessed? Why do I have money? When the heart is right, you do right and you are blessed.
AMEN- that is the truth! You have to be right to live right!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteso, where does it say NOT TO PAY TITHE? I do both, tithe and offerings.
To try and use that as an argument is ridiculous. That's like someone saying "Well, If it takes 6 Beers to make you drunk, And you drink 1, The you are 1/6th drunk. How about this for an argument using your form of Logic,
Is being a Pedophile, and practicing Pedophilia a Sin? The Bible doesn't expressly say that it is a Sin, So, Is it?
Is Masturbation a Sin? The Bible doesn't expressly say 1 way or another, So, Is it a Sin.
Is smoking Marijuana a Sin, or No?
I can go on and on, But here are a few examples for you to work on. Get back to me when you have some answers.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteso, where does it say NOT TO PAY TITHE? I do both, tithe and offerings.
To try and use that as an argument is ridiculous. That's like someone saying "Well, If it takes 6 Beers to make you drunk, And you drink 1, The you are 1/6th drunk. How about this for an argument using your form of Logic,
Is being a Pedophile, and practicing Pedophilia a Sin? The Bible doesn't expressly say that it is a Sin, So, Is it?
Is Masturbation a Sin? The Bible doesn't expressly say 1 way or another, So, Is it a Sin.
Is smoking Marijuana a Sin, or No?
I can go on and on, But here are a few examples for you to work on. Get back to me when you have some answers.
Mark what do you know about anything? Just can not accept the fact that I am blessed and you are not.
ReplyDeleteTrashy examples to, can't you do better than that? That must be what is in your heart.
And this fellow will not communicate with such trash!
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"so, where does it say NOT TO PAY TITHE? I do both, tithe and offerings. I AM NOT BROKE. I am not trusting in a retirement check. Also my wife is not a slave of some sinners time clock neither."
DnA said:
Are you really going to try to justify your "all Christians pay tithe and give in offerings" doctrine by using the argument that the new testament does not say NOT to pay tithes and give in offerings? That gives you a license to place people in hell for not paying their tithe and giving in offerings? I made a simple statement that you could not show me one scripture in the new testament that supports your "all Christians pay tithe and give in offerings" doctrine and you could not find one. ZERO is what you came up with. GOOSE EGGS. Tell me now that you have never preached this false doctrine or that you have not stated this lie prior to taking up an offering. You can't because you have. You just like all of your ntcc counterparts have spurted out those words "ALL CHRISTIANS PAY TITHES AND GIVE IN OFFERINGS" not because it's in the bible but because you were taught to repeat this to your congregation over and over and over for what purpose? Can you be honest about this one thing? Please tell us why it is so necessary to harass people to give 10% off the top of their earnings in addition to offerings if it is not in the bible? If you can't be honest about this than how about being honest about where the money goes? Transparency is non-existent in the ntcc. How about this, anonymous; why should someone give such a huge chunk of cash to an organization that is full of corruption at the highest levels? Why should anyone be expected to give under the false pretense that they are giving to the program of God when the majority of their money is going to support the lavish lifestyles of double standard Davis and conniving Kekel? I borrowed those from Jeff because they are so fitting. We are talking about making crooks rich here. Why should preachers accept large amounts of money from low paid hard working GI's so that it can go towards paying catholic law school tuition for Grant Kekel who is the son of a non profit organization CEO and Grand son of the founder? Why should they do this when they have preached for years that people should not pursue secular education?
You say you are not broke. I would hope not. Thirty years in the ntcc watching your leaders get rich off of struggling working class families; I would hope you learned how to siphon off a little for yourself and you call that being blessed? You have the audacity to come on here and rebuke folks for calling you out on your hypocrisy?
You preach a gospel of exclusion and you do it to make yourself feel special. That's what the ntcc is all about. The more people you can convince to follow your false doctrines, the more so called "blessings" you will receive. Your hands are not clean and neither is your heart pure. I hope one day you realize how backward and ungodly the ntcc has become and that you will learn that it's not all about you and your leaders.
DnA
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMark what do you know about anything? Just can not accept the fact that I am blessed and you are not.
Chief said...
Blessed? You are not blessed. You are most likely sucking others dry. Either that or you've jumped on the NTCC's real-estate bandwagon. The world is full of people who invest in real-estate. A good percentage of them don't even attend church services? Are they blessed. Creflo Dollar has millions and so does Eddie Long and you call them prosperity compromising preachers and are they blessed? No, they are just good at convincing a bunch of biblically ignorant suckers that they need to shell out 10% of their income.
You are not blessed. You just figured out a way to make money assuming you even have any. The world is full of people who've figured out ways to make money. I made $10,000 in one month selling new Toyota cars. Did that mean I was blessed? You're ignorant.
Chief
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSo, why am I blessed? Why do I have money? When the heart is right, you do right and you are blessed.
Chief said...
Oh really? I guess you didn't read Revelation chapters 2 & 3. The only ones who were quote blessed were the ones who were broke and or persecuted. The ones who were rich monetarily were cursed. I guessed you didn't read those chapters or like the rest of the NTCC leadership you are willfully ignorant. I guess you never read 1 Tim 6 either?
6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Chief said...
According to those scriptures you are not blessed, you are cursed and destitute of the truth. Your whole prosperity hypothesis is flawed and you are too blind to see it. According to 1 Tim 6 you have erred from the faith but you'll find a way to explain that away also. You don't know the first thing about spirituality whey you equate having money to being Godly and blessed. Like I said, the blind leading the blind.
Chief
Mr. Anonymous the unlearned said...
ReplyDeleteI am not trusting in a retirement check. Also my wife is not a slave of some sinners time clock neither.
Chief said...
I'm a whole lot better off trusting in a retirement check than trusting in RWD the crook and Kekel the con artist and the rest of the NTCC leadership. I also don't use others to get paid like no doubt you do. Your wife is a slave to all the NTCC cooky chauvinist rules and RWD every time he stands up behind a pulpit and dogs women. Because of the cult you are a part of your wife is certainly the slave to, and she answers to quote "sinners" every time she says "Yes Sir" to guys like RWD, Kekel and you for that matter. She lives with a sinner. YOU!! When she cleans your nasty underwear she is a slave to a sinner. When she does anything the NTCC requires she is a "slave to a sinner". At least my wife gets paid for teaching children to have a whole lot more sense than you ever will as long as you remain with the NTCC.
Get some!
Chief
Great points Jeff,
ReplyDeleteYour anonymous poster will either tuck tail and run or dig his hole a lot deeper. They are like lawyers: You can tell they are lying when their lips are moving. This anonymous represents what happens to a persons brain when they follow the ntcc for thirty years. Its sick and its sad.
Did you notice the I'm better than anyone else because I'm in the ntcc attitude that this dude has? I wonder if he talks to his congregation the same way? Calling folks trash. His brain is cooked, fried, not much left.
This is par for the course for ntcc preachers. They are full of hot air and nothing to support their outlandish ideals. I am glad being blessed means a whole lot more than having things. We have everything we need and some of the things we want, but what really makes life worth living are those things that you can't place a price tag on.
DnA
Jeff you have a spam comment on the end of the Rendla thread.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDelete"full of crap", be sure you teach that to your kids, fine talk. Why don't just curse?
Chief...
Your leadership has a history of throwing around the word "nigger". What would you say is worse, being referred to as "full of crap" or a "nigger". Call my wife a "nigger" and I'll plant your face in the pavement. Whats the name your leadership likes to call people? Knot-head, bone-head? Is that a sanctified "dick-head"? You NTCCers are such hypocrites. What do you think hurts more? Calling people "FAT" all the time like your sorry NTCC leaders do or saying they are full of crap? You are such a hypocrite. Go correct you abusive leadership you double standard hypocrite.
No that would be too hard. You come on here to straighten me out anonymously but you are too weak to straighten out your abusive leadership.
Stand up in church the next time RWD calls women "FAT" who got that way because of your sorry system. A system where women sit around all day gossiping, talking about bargain shopping, trying to figure out the latest diet, and going to public gyms in spandex tights like R. Hunt because they are out of shape which is largely the result of them not getting a job like the virtuous married woman mentioned in Proverbs 31.
Chief
I checked the spam folder. Nothing there.
ReplyDeletethe new testament states to give based on what you want to give. not of compulsion or necessity.
ReplyDeletethere are not any requirements on when or how much or to whom to give. i'd rather give my money for some homeless guy to eat than to give it to davis for another real estate house.
www.free-christian-movies-4me.com
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI was trying to point your attention to the the link on the last comment on the Rendla thread written by Chandra. It's a link to some website that writes letters of resignation. It's no big deal, just pointing it out.
DnA
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMark what do you know about anything? Just can not accept the fact that I am blessed and you are not.
Trashy examples to, can't you do better than that? That must be what is in your heart.
Just answer the questions, and don't worry about what is in my Heart. What you said about Tithe is so R'Dub. It sounds like something right out of the pulpit that is preached at the Graham Compound.
I think I'm having a flashback.....
I think what Anonymous said about Tithing is a good example of what is in HIS Heart and how the preaching at the Graham Compound can twist your thinking. If you take what he is saying to it's logical conclusion about Tithing then everything in the Bible that is not expressly written "Thou shalt not" can be turned, twisted,or downright perverted, (I'm sorry anonymous, if the word "perverted" is to strong of a word for you") Tithing is where anonymous starts at, But I'm sure that won't be where he ends.
ReplyDeleteI suppose I shouldn't be to surprised since I've heard that R'Dub preaches and believes that the thief on the cross went to Hell. And Jesus DIRECTLY said to him "This day, Thou shalt be with me in Paradise".
Amen! Preach it Jeff! I wish the keeper of the lizards would break out Larch and Lurch.
ReplyDeleteThe social curse word doctrine that the ntcc preaches is a prime example of ntcc hypocrisy. If you say gosh, golly or Gee Whiz you might as well curse God because according to them you are substituting those words for curse words. Filthy rags and dung and pissing are all biblical terms that the ntcc would blast you for using. What makes it all so hypocritical is that they will say the most non Christian things to people that you can not find anywhere in the bible. Davis was a master at name calling and off color jokes and he treated woman and black folks like they were gutter trash. This is yet another subject that brings to light the true hypocrisy of the ntcc.
My step-father is black and he helped put food on the table when I was growing up. I sometimes refer to him as Dad because he played that role in my life. I don't agree with everything he did and it wasn't all conducive to a perfect childhood but he did more for me than the ntcc ever did and when they tell their nigger jokes and it really shows you where their heart is.
These people aren't fooling too many people any more. Their attendance is dwindling and people are starting to use google to find out that they are an abusive and destructive cult. You sow what you reap. If you enjoy blasting people and making fun of them and you choose to cover it up by not saying gosh or shucks than you are worse than sinners that use the F word. In fact, you are sinners just like everyone else but you try to mask your sin by pointing out the faults of everyone around you. You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. You wear white shirts and wingtips but inside you are whited sepulchers. Outwardly you are holy but on the inside you reek with the stench of hypocrisy and double standards.
You make a living excluding other people from heaven so you can say look at how holy and righteous we are. All your righteousness is as filthy as bloody tampons, but you continue to trample people under foot with your condescending attitude toward everything that doesn't meet your status quo.
What the ntcc does is no different than a bully on a play ground. The name calling and verbal abuse is a prelude to more sickening spiritual abuse. Be careful ntcc leaders because one day you are going to mess with the wrong sort and if you do it could backfire on you. You could reap everything you have sown for the last 40+ years in a few short minutes. This is not a personal threat just an observation that what goes around in life, comes back around to bite you in the butt (oops), fourth point of contact.
DnA
"And Jesus DIRECTLY said to him "This day, Thou shalt be with me in Paradise"."
ReplyDeleteWell, Mark, according to RW's scholarship, the phrase "today shalt thou be with me in paradise" is actually a SARCASTIC QUESTION! Never mind the fact that the context indicates it was an act of forgiveness; no, we can't have any hope of "deathbed repentance." So away to hell with the man who humbly turned to Jesus for mercy, and you'll burn too if you don't pay tithes and give offerings.
Pious the Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"I am not trusting in a retirement check. Also my wife is not a slave of some sinners time clock neither".
I'm happy for you, but I do hope you have paid into Social Security & that you have enough money saved in case you die unexpectedly. Your wife will receive nothing from S.S neither will she received Medicare after 65. If you've not paid in. If you don't then I guess she'll have to remarry. I'm not trashing you, but would like to say, I hope your wife has some education she can lean on if she doesn't want to remarry. I know you're putting us down for wanting to have something.
Let's see I put in 32yrs, you've stated you've been in 30yrs. As far as I'm concerned, when a husband tried to better himself and his family suddenly he was doing wrong. Yet, secretly others on the top can take college courses online and it's okay. Women who just wanted to volunteer at a elementary school were told why weren't they out there soul-winning. At least, my husband cares enough to see that my future will be provided for. I work because I want to. The money we tried to save was spent every time we attended a conference. We gave, helped others believing in what we were doing was right.Yet,when my husband asked Rev. Davis, I was right there; if we should buy death insurance. He said "NO", then we get a letter from Rev. Olson after we left, telling us Rev. Davis NEVER GIVES FINANCIAL ADVICE? What kinda of out right LIE is that!?
So,you're saying that we're in the place we're at because we left God for money? At least, I'm not dependent on people who move you, whenever they they think it's time for you to move. Starting over how many times for you? If you don't take what they're offering you, you become the topic of the message!? You may God, but you're not free to serve him the way he wants you too. You're tied to an Organization, that puts strict rules on what you can do and not do in your church. They will not stand by you, when you ask a question they don't want to answer, or not bringing in the $$$'s. Pleeze, we don't need your opinion. Coming out from among you has been the best thing that has ever happened to us. Just ask Rev. Barnes and others who've left recently. We don't need someone to rule us. We needed someone who cared and was concerned about our welfare. But, if you will take a good look you will see that they're only interested in themselves.
Living free and serving God!
Deborah Shunk
I don't know what your talking about. I have flown to Panama 2 times in 3 years each for 10-14 days to visit. My parents in Wisconsin I went 2 time in the last year. I may go again very soon. Also we were always encouraged to talk and stay in contact with family. I call my dad almost everyday. He's not a christian. And I Pastor a church in NTCC. So what ever your talking about I don't know about. I have been around nearly 30 years. from ANON!
ReplyDeleteHere you go a REAL TRUE STORY. My grandfather had passes away. We had tickets to fly home two weeks from the time he died. Because there was a conference. WHICH it USED TO BE THE ONLY TIME FOLKS COULD SEE FAMILY! I got up my courage and asked if I could change my ticket and me and my daughter could fly home for the funeral. I would miss two weeks of school. A NORMAL college would have allowed that!! I was DENIED,DENIED<DENIED! If I left then I lost that entire semester. Living off one very small income. Paying the tuition was very difficult. So losing a entire semester seemed horrific and not what we thought God would want us to do. So I stayed in Washington. I missed grieving with my family and missed the funeral of my grandfather!! So do not come on here and say all is just dandy. We take trips,we see family,we talk to family. RW DAVIS BASHED folks for even using the E-mail to keep in touch with family. He doubted that is what we used it for!!!! TRUE STORY!! Oh and the ONLY reason you were encouraged to keep in touch with family. Is to keep them off rw davis BACK!! He didn't want family calling him. Since he has NO EXPLANATION why folks live the way they do. If he did then the ntcc web site would have up it so called policies and have updated that web site YEARS AGO!!
I could stand right in front of God and say this is the TRUTH! Can you? I am not one to fabricate a story,add to what I am telling. I tell the TRUTH!
April
"Also my wife is not a slave of some sinners time clock neither".
ReplyDeleteyou yourself must be slave to the sinner's time clock. so much for doing everything as unto the Lord. it okay for your wife to be a slave to the sinner time clock if you are missionaries.permission is granted for women to babysit for sinner women who slave under the time clock.sounds like a two head master to me.
Or the women in ntcc are slaves to Tanya K. as she has them come and clean her home. All the while you think it is such a honor to dust,mop,scrub her house. All the while you are rushing to get your notes done,clean your own house,get ready for class. No wonder I got into a car accident after leaving Tanya and Mike's house while in "bible school"!!LoL
ReplyDeleteApril
ntcc doesn't want women working because that empowers a woman. With the women at home, ntcc can call on them for their chores: come clean our mansion, pick up our dry cleaning, do our grocery shopping for us slave.
ReplyDeleteThen, too, if her husband works for r w davis, that young gal can expect her 'pastor' to come calling. When he's done 'educating' her that it's not adultery because, 'to the pure all things are pure' r-dub can leave some hush money for her, confident that one of his goons will say she solicited him, not the other way around. olson won't do anything to help her. And momma, who's had the hots for davis for years, will say, "with all the pretty girls, why would he choose you"?
Besides, many ntcc girls marry so young, they don't even have a high school diploma. How could they work? That's how ntcc wants 'em:
Young, dumb, and free for 'fun' when their hubby's at work...
And they say they aren't a cult? Yeah, right; whatever!
Don and Ange
Ever notice how families with girls in the 'flower of their youth' are called back to Washington just until the pretty young things are engaged before they even graduate high school?
ReplyDeleteThen it's back out into the field for mama and papa. But the pyt gets to court on the wall and dream of being barefoot and barren in the barrio, all thanks to the wonderful ntcc teen bride / bridal school program! Wow, thanks, rdub. It's a pedophile's paradise up thar in Graham!
How old are briggsy's daughters? Is it time for him to pray about going to Washington? Hmmn? What about george and kathy jordan's girls? Any takers?
ReplyDeleteOr is it different when it's your kid? As tanya kekel is so fond of saying...
So what you're saying is you endorse teen bridal programs for op's (other peoples' kids); but not your own? Why? I thought rdub never missed Gawd? Points to ponder as those young gals enter puberty.
Do you really want a 20 something year old bs student or young ntcc minister who is desperate for a wife drooling over your young teen daughter? Or do you get special privileges because you have kissed r-dub's fourth point of contact for so long? Really, we want to know. Do you want your young teen daughter being groped in the bible school office the way debbie johnson kinson and tanya reynolds davis kekel were groped in the bible school office...???
Do you want your daughter pregnant as she climbs on a school bus to go to high school like what happened to krystal apolinaro ripka?
Do you want your daughter married and as a newly wed living in a servicemens' home taking care of 8 to 20 g.i.s all before her 18th birthday like becky johnson ankenbauer?
Even tanya reynolds davis kekel admitted she would not get married at such a young age if she had it to do all over again. And she's not out in some pioneer work or pulling a sevicemen's home load like what the ntcc expects of too many ladies (another reason to keep 'em at home)!
How old was tanya wright when she married george keys? How old was george? Does george's second ntcc wife know he had a first wife? Did ntcc rules cause his first marriage to fail?
How old was regina olson when she married danny brill? How old was he?
How old was david tieman junior when he married his first wife? Does his second wife know he had a first wife? Is davey-o IN the ntcc? Hmmn?
How many old timers with 20 plus years in the ntcc have kids who are IN ntcc? Or did those kids flee as soon as they were old enough????
Were they tired of the rules for them but no rules for borg leaders?
Were they tired of the hypocrisy?
Were they glad to get out of ntcc and just be around people who loved them?
What really does happen right in front of your blinded eyes day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year times almost 30 years???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Can you see the pattern?
teenie boppers gettin' married.
It's just another way to keep them IN the ntcc.
Don and Ange
It's another way to keep them as slaves.
ReplyDeleteThe woman with a job is anything but a slave.
ReplyDeleteSeems like old Anony hit the nail on the head. As me, you folks just don't like the truth and can only attack the truth, by giving out incorrect information.
ReplyDeleteThe "N word" has not been used in years. You folks talk like it was yesterday. Old information is all you have.
If I pass before my mate, the one left living will be well taken care of. We have because years ago, we stopped spending, started saving, and we trust the promise given to us, that he will supply all our needs, according to his riches in glory, not in some retirement check, which is fixing to get the axe!
IF women help TK, she pays them, and with more than a "thank you for your help" as does her mother, her father also.
ReplyDeleteThe other stuff that Don wrote has nothing to do with what Anyon. wrote. What he wrote is true. You can not change that!
Preach on Anyon.
Another typically empty borg response.
ReplyDeleteN-word may not be used from the pulpit, thanks to the X-ers exposing that and hammering away at davis' major character flaw. r-dub probably still uses it in his house, in his home, in his heart. Has he ever REALLY apologized? I don't mean some lame,
"I want to apologize if I have offended anyone, if I have done anything wrong.... BUT I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG!!!"--r w davis
I'd say NOT.
But, anonymous is out of lame excuses and like every other scared ntcc suck-up who comes on here thinking they will straighten out us Xers, they soon realize they have nothing valid to say. They can not use the scripture to back up ntcc false doctrine. They cannot re-write the ntcc past history of abuse; even though they will try to lie like kekel does routinely on his blog.
So they take their toys and go home and lick their wounds-God having pricked their heart; they once again sear their conscience and repeat an ntcc mantra to take the place of the living God dealing with their heart.
Well, we cannot set you free. Only the truth can do so. But, anon, you seem to prefer a lie. The bible says some believe a lie and are damned. Does that describe you? Think hard. Does ntcc really look like the bible example of God's children serving Him in Spirit and in Truth? Or is it just a bunch of followers obeying man's rules for brownie points? Really? Which is it?
We noticed you didn't bother to answer any of the valid questions. The truth is scary to those who refuse to acknowledge it and repent. That seems to describe you, anon. Keep reading. You will learn things that will demand a decision for Christ. Or go away willfully ignorant. It's your choice. Most people who blog here used to blog in favor of ntcc as you try to do. But they had to acknowledge the truth and change in order to put GOD back on the throne of their hearts after they repented for allowing men and their doctrines to replace God in their lives... Face it, you will choose davis doctrine over Christ every day you remain in the ntcc. That is the only way to survive in that CULTure.
Don and Ange
If women help TK she pays them...
ReplyDeletetanya kekel only pays people NOW because the Xer community eXposed her and her whole family for how they TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OTHERS.
old information is all you have
ReplyDeleteOld information is sufficient for establishing an history of abuse.
NO INFORMATION is what ntccers have regarding ntcc finances that they gave.
NO INFORMATION is what ntccers have about where their 'leaders' go and how long they stay and so on.
YOU GUYS IN ntcc ARE PAYING THESE BOARD MEMBERS TO TAKE VACATIONS IN RECREATIONAL VEHICLES AND TRIPS TO EUROPE AND HAWAII AND OTHER VACATION HOTSPOTS JUST SO THEY CAN BLAST YOU FOR BEING SO POOR THAT YOU DRIVE AN "OIL PUKER" OR "KLUNKER" IN kekel and davis' words {respectively}.
HOW'S THAT FOR NO INFORMATION?
Keep sacrificing, davis needs another Cadillac for his collection.
tanya wants to buy more fine crystal in Europe while mikey makes another deposit into their tax-free Swiss bank account.
Pay some more rent with no receipt.
kekel needs more of your cash. Paper trails result in convictions.
kekel needs more dough to pay for grant's law school if he graduates the business school at St. Louis University.
Keep causing your family to go without so the rich can get richer off of your sacrifice.
Sleep on the floor another year so kekels can build another mansion off of your dimes.
Refuse to go to your dad's funeral because your CULT "won't let" you.
Anon has seen all of this and more but refuses to accept the truth about the ntcc.
Don and Ange
Anon wrote...
ReplyDeleteIF women help TK, she pays them
Chief said...
Sounds like a job to me you hypocrite. Where in the Bible does it say, "It is lawful if thou shalt work for TK but unlawful if thou shalt take any other job? You are just another NTCC double standard hypocrite. And as far as the "N" word not being used for years? What kind of junk is that? So that makes it all better now? So what you are saying is that RDUB and Kekel have stopped using the "N" word so I guess they finally got saved or something? Did they repent? They were supposed to act right as so called leaders from the get go weren't they? So the "N" word hasn't been used for years which means you've admitted that it previously was in fact used.
So I guess that during the period of time that it was used we shouldn't have trusted your hypocrite leaders but now we suddenly should trust them because they "NO LONGER" throw around the "N" word? You are more confused and misguided than the ones who call people niggers.
Chief
Anonymous wrote...
ReplyDeleteThe "N word" has not been used in years. You folks talk like it was yesterday. Old information is all you have.
Chief said...
I still can't believe you were dumb enough to write that statement. That is like saying, "He hasn't run around in a white sheet and a white pillowcase on his head with eye holes cut out for years".
So because you haven't heard the "N" word used by your sorry leaders for years, that makes it all better? If you are a black man or black woman in the NTCC you are out of your mind if you if you consider the NTCC leadership legitimate. They used to throw around the word "nigger" like a Quarterback throws around a football. Old Brother Snyder threw out more black racist jokes than Larry Bird threw out old tennis shoes and where do you think he learned all that from? Either his racist background or RWD himself. Most likely a combination of the two.
So Blacks in the NTCC should just idly sit by and knowing that some racist white dude had a habit of insulting them with the "N" word while simultaneously brainwashing them into believing that they shouldn't be offended if they love the Lord. So Christianity is all about insulting people with racist statements and jokes while telling them that they are the ones with a heart problem because they are bothered by that garbage? I heard Snyder telling his black jokes one day so I know what I'm talking about.
You say, "RWD ain't a racist, look at all the black people in the NTCC." I'll tell you what RWD ain't racist against where black people are concerned. Money from black people spends the same as money from white people. RWD and his cronies should have never been throwing around the word "nigger" in the first place.
Boy the NTCC is one seriously mess up organization.
Chief
How do you know the NTCC leadership is right with the Lord? Because they haven't used the "N" word for years.
ReplyDeleteHa, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. LOL. Where do I sign up to become a member of the NTCC? Man I've got to become a part of that organization. The NTCC leadership hasn't used the "N" word for years. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. LOL.
Pastor, how do I know if I'm right with GAWD? When you haven't used the "N" word for years. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. LOL.
Except a man not use the "N" word for years, he shall not enter the kingdom of GAWD.
Faith without not using the "N" word for years is dead.
Now abideth faith, hope, and not using the "N" word for years, but the greatest of these is not using the "N" word for years.
Chief
Who said anything about divorce? Who said anything about the N word. I made no reference to that. I stand by what I said. It is right and you proved it by all this other stuff you dragged into it. Does not change one thing.
ReplyDeleteAnd now I am ghosting out of here, like I be GONE!
Anonymous asked...
ReplyDeleteWho said anything about the N word?
Chief said...
I don't know who it was because they didn't put their name but this is what they wrote...
The "N word" has not been used in years. You folks talk like it was yesterday. Old information is all you have.
Chief asked...
What, you couldn't read that far back? No wonder so many NTCCers are so mixed up. They only read a part of the Bible. They ignore the rest because they know it doesn't jive up with what they believe.
The fact is, if the "N word" was used by the NTCC leadership as far back as ten years ago, (which it was, if not a whole lot more recently) that was far too recent. You guys make way too many excuses for your sorry NTCC leaders. Just admit it. The NTCC leaders are no different then the people you call sinners. They are just sinners who go to church a lot and run around in a white shirt and tie while making slaves out of their wives.
Chief
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"And now I am ghosting out of here, like I be GONE!"
DnA said:
Look what you did Jeff, he's tucking his tail now and running. They can't stay around very long because they know they are messed up. This dude has a fried brain. For all you ntcc'rs that follow this blog, this is your brain on the ntcc after 30 years. I mean this guy could not support any of his accusations and could not answer any of our questions with reason or substance. This is your leadership ntcc'rs. Is this really the type of person you want to follow?
I am convinced now more than ever that the ntcc is run by a bunch of lunatics and fanatics that have no clue what Christianity is all about. Thank you Anonymous for making a fool of yourself publicly. I would say that in the short time you have spent on this blog, you probably influenced some on your own side to at least wonder how screwed up things are in the ntcc. Every time, (not sometimes) but every single time that one of you comes on this blog you do more damage to your cause than you do good. The reason this is true is because you are a hypocrite and people, (even your followers) can see the phoniness exuding from you.
So please come back and continue to point out the issues that distinguish your group as a controlling cult. It's priceless. Before you leave, do you have any more issues you'd like to discuss? Here's a good topic you could cover: Since the New Testament doesn't say not to smoke crack or shoot up heroine it must be alright? The level of ignorance that you exhibit is seldom surpassed. Maybe it's the 30 years and the toll it has taken on your brain.
DnA
While in NTCC, I asked permission to go home to see my dying grandmother. I believe my Mom was attending NTCC in Buffalo, NY, at that time, or I got "special permission" for my parents to attend.
ReplyDeleteThe plan was to drive to Buffalo with my parents after the conference, spend a couple days there, and then fly home to KS, where we were ministering.
Much was said at that conference about loving family more than loving God, not going to family reunions, etc. I remember KJ was either on her way to, or coming from a family reunion. I'm sure others had trips planned around that conference, as that was the way we could manage a visit, and not miss a Sunday a.m. service. At the same conference, RWD mentioned how he had just visited family in NC.
What was shared at that conference was so anti-family, that when we were leaving the campground, my Mom said, "Debbie, I feel like I'm kidnapping you."
This was around 1998. Old news? Here's something more current.
About two and a half years ago, before we were assigned to Guam, RWD made the statement to my husband, "You will never pastor at Woodbrook, WA, because her family is too close." My parents lived in Tacoma at the time. :-)
I didn't get things all confuzzled in my mind ;-) and I know others didn't either. Things like this really happened, and the multitude of accounts shared corroborate this type of treatment.
"Do you want your young teen daughter being groped in the bible school office the way debbie johnson kinson and tanya reynolds davis kekel were groped in the bible school office...???"
ReplyDeleteReally? I've never heard of Debbie Kinson being groped in the bs office. When did that happen? Or have outlandish rumors began to multiply from a kernel of truth? This information didn't come from me, so you must have another reliable source to make such a public accusation. You should cite it if you value your credibility, or otherwise issue a retraction.
Vic Johanson said...
ReplyDelete"Rev. Kekel confirmed this one himself online."
The groping? No, he denied it. He said they "didn't go there," whatever that's supposed to mean. But I will reiterate once again that I lived with him when it transpired, and my knowledge of it comes directly from his mouth. He boasted about making out and groping, even in the bible school office, where he worked at the time. Either he was lying then, or he's lying now (or else he's practicing NTCC's Clintonesque creative lying tecniques on us with some convoluted semantics).
Mike Kekel told me that he was making out and groping Tanya. I heard it myself, and so did another brother, who was so disturbed about it that he went to RW and told him about it. There were no consequences, though, other than a wrist slapping admonition over the pulpit that dating couples needed to quit playing footsies under the table, or some other such watered down pabulum.
Was she 14 then? Well, when the boasting occurred, Mike and I were living on Eiler street in St. Louis; I think we moved there in '81 or '82. So 15 or 16 is more likely, but then he didn't say how long it had been going on either. So that's a technicality, but even a 16 year old being pawed by a man who is 25 is considered creepy by most people.
Phil Kinson simultaneously admitted to the same activity with Debbie Johnson (who was even younger). The thing that disturbed us the most was that when we remonstrated with them about what they were doing, they got defensive and told us right upfront that they didn't plan on repenting. That sent the other brother over the edge, so he narked them out. But nothing came of it, and they're big wheels in the org now.
MARCH 06, 2010 7:23 PM
Don and Ange say,
Here are some highlights from Vic's original comment:
"Mike Kekel told me that he was making out and groping Tanya."--VJ
"Phil Kinson simultaneously admitted to the same activity with Debbie Johnson (who was even younger)."--VJ
Don and Ange
Vic,
ReplyDeleteDidn't even you say that one reason you left ntcc or were glad you left ntcc when you did was because of your daughter's age and ntcc's propensity to marry off young teens? Didn't you say something about that too?
If 'feel-good phil' kinson is so noble, why is he best friends with kekel? Birds of a feather...
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWe'd love to hear mr or mrs almost 30 years IN ntcc chime in on this promoting child molesters issue. How about it?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIf RULES were what God wanted for us, we would still be under the LAW.
ReplyDeleteBut the LAW failed.
Maybe people should wake up and realize that men should not play god the way davis and kekel do.
"The rules are NOT there to protect you."
ReplyDeleteplease tell me this man is no longer a minister.
"Phil Kinson simultaneously admitted to the same activity with Debbie Johnson (who was even younger)."--VJ
ReplyDeleteI see no mention of the bible school office. Same activity ≠ same location. Truth is important, hence my objection to inaccurate details. Unless you have another source, you are in error.
"Didn't even you say that one reason you left ntcc or were glad you left ntcc when you did was because of your daughter's age and ntcc's propensity to marry off young teens? Didn't you say something about that too?"
ReplyDeleteSure I did, and I am. That has nothing to do with inaccurate reporting of what I did say. I have no idea where Phil and Debbie made out, because he never told me. Mike did tell me. I know what I said, and I know that what you are saying didn't come from me.
Vic, Your writing was sufficiently ambiguous to be innocently misinterpreted. Many people would easily interpret it in the exact same fashion that we did. You seem to be really straining at a gnat here, Vic.
ReplyDeleteSo, to recap,
"Mike Kekel told me that he was making out and groping Tanya."--VJ
"Phil Kinson simultaneously admitted to the same activity with Debbie Johnson (who was even younger)."--VJ
And whereas mike kekel admitted to groping tanya and making out with tanya in the bible school office, phil kinson only admitted to making out with and groping debbie johnson (who was even younger) in an undisclosed location.
Wow, I feel so much better that we cleared that up. Because the liars in ntcc would take a small reporting inaccuracy like that and in Clinton-esque fashion say, WE NEVER DID THAT by which kinson might mean he never groped or made out with debbie johnson IN THE BIBLE SCHOOL OFFICE; he only admitted to Vic Johanson that he groped and made out with debbie johnson (location not disclosed).
Yes, details matter. Wouldn't want 'feel-good Phil' to have a loop-hole for his lie, would we?
Don and Ange
What's really troubling about this whole situation is not WHERE this happened (in a bible school office or back seat of a car). What is really troubling is THAT IT HAPPENED: Two adult men groped and made out with two minor girls. Very troubling.
ReplyDeleteI never said it wasn't troubling; otherwise I never would have broached it. Nevertheless, accuracy is important, and I suspect that you wouldn't want others twisting what you said around, even if they thought it was trivial.
ReplyDeleteNTCC made a specialty of evading the truth by omitting minor details and using insinuation. These things matter, and I'm not going to be part of it; anytime somebody misquotes me, I'm obligated to call them out. Little changes like this have a snowball effect, and it doesn't take long for the original account to be rendered unrecognizable. So don't use me as a source unless you intend to be scrupulously accurate.
"What is really troubling is THAT IT HAPPENED: Two adult men groped and made out with two minor girls."
ReplyDeleteThat didn't trouble me at the time nearly so much as the fact that they got defensive, refused to repent, and made it clear that they intended to continue the behavior. In the context of the times, it wasn't that unusual for 20 year old guys to make out with teenaged girlfriends, and people who did so weren't generally viewed as perverts or pedophiles. It's no use retroactively applying today's standards to what was going on 30 years ago (and please don't think that because I have a little perspective, I'm defending it, because I'm not). However, when "holiness preacher" was introduced into the mix, it became very unusual, and the justifications were disturbing to those whose consciences objected.
The biggest problem I have is the double standard. There wouldn't have been no getting away with all this "making out" if it had been the average Joe. Kekel and Kinson got away with it because of who they were messing with. The daughters of Johnson and Davis. Davis would never want it openly published that the daughters of NTCC "leaders" are human also. They keep that kind of stuff secret and brush it under the carpet but blast others who practice the same conduct.
ReplyDeleteI listened to RWD blast someone in conference for "making out". RDUB was pretty explicit about it as well. I could care less if Kinson or Kekel made out with their girl friends. Even at their age it happens all the time in the church and outside the church. The problem I have once again is the double standard. I got raked over the coals just because I talked to a girl on the phone when I was a Sergeant in the Army and she also was on active duty. We never even tried so much as to touch each other even one single time. We weren't even stationed at the same military installation. We'll a busy body sister told the pastor that me and this other sister had a phone conversation and the pastor went through the roof. Just imagine if I'd held hands with her or put my arm around her? Were not even talking about feeling someone up here. I got blasted and raked just for a phone call.
Well thank God that happened because as a result I didn't go to the school of rules which was a gift from God him self the way I see it. That sorry pastor got so mad at me he wouldn't even send me to the NTCC's sorry seminary AKA school or rules. THANK GOD. To the contrary, these guys (Kekel and Kinson) were in my words based on my interpretation of what Vic wrote, "feeling up each other". Vic used the word "groping". Here is an example I found on-line for the word groping:
When used in a sexual context, groping is touching or fondling another person in a sexual way using the hands, and generally has a negative connotation and considered molestation in most societies.
So there you go. I get blasted and blacklisted for talking on the phone and Kinson and Kekel get away with what was described as "groping". Can you spell "double standard"?
Chief
The "N word" has not been used in years. You folks talk like it was yesterday. Old information is all you have.
ReplyDeleteHAS rw davis EVER apologized for using the N word? Bashing folks that are overweight? For folks that frequent a thrift store as he called them KOOKS! He will stand up there and bash anyone and everyone. Without ever saying he is sorry. So if this so yesterday. Why try and brush it under the rug like they have tried to do all with there skeletons in the closet!!
What has Tanya paid the women that clean and slave at her house with? MONEY? if so then it is a JOB outside of the home! I highly doubt she is paying with money. Because that would actually help there family. So they might be able to buy new cloths and not old thrift store cloths.
We have because years ago, we stopped spending, started saving.
You stopped spending because you had NO MONEY TO SPEND!! Oh and ANON,why are you hiding and not coming out let folks know who you are. Your so Brave!
April
Debbie R. said:
ReplyDelete"While in NTCC, I asked permission to go home to see my dying grandmother. I believe my Mom was attending NTCC in Buffalo, NY, at that time, or I got "special permission" for my parents to attend."
DnA said:
We talk about this stuff like it's normal. Grown adults asking permission from other adults to go home to visit a dying relative and getting "special permission" for parents. This is so far from normal. We got used to this kind of behavior and never realized how normal decisions that people make every day were routed through our leaders. We were not allowed to think for ourselves.
Think about it. If we were to miss a bible study or a church service we had to get permission and it was seldom granted. If we missed a church service or prayer meeting without permission we were a hair away from being "sinners". If we were a day late paying our tithe we were pulpit fodder for the next church service. The ntcc is so far from normal it's inconceivable we could be so gullible to follow all these rules and not realize we were in a cult.
We talk about this stuff like it's normal behavior but it's so far from normal, it's almost extraterrestrial. People from outside our former cult that stumble upon this blog must think we are crazy to ever have fell for such a scam. After all we were a chosen people. We were special above all others. Of the millions of people on planet earth, God chose us. No, what really happened here was some Rwd wannabe saw a sucker walking down the street and shoved a church card in our face hoping we would be that one in a thousand person that would give large amounts of money to support their "full time" ministry. They saw us coming.
Meanwhile in churches everywhere across the United States people are getting genuinely saved and living happy, normal lives. They love their neighbors and God. They give to those in need and God uses these ordinary people to reach other ordinary people. They go to church on Sunday and worship God and they go out into the world and tell others about how great God is. God in turn loves them and blesses them here on this earth and in the life to come.
We on the other hand, all missed the boat. We excluded everyone from our little hate groups we called churches. We preached salvation but we offered no freedom or reward to those we converted. We offered them a life of hardship and an impossible list of rules to keep. We were all kept in our places of submission by the threat of hell and impending doom, while the real Christians were out proclaiming freedom and joy throughout the world with the fruit of happiness as a testimony to what is real in their lives.
We are now on the outside looking in and it's so much better. We enjoy our life and we have experienced real Christianity outside of the laws and ordinances of the ntcc. When you operate the controls of your own life, and you begin to think with the brain that God has given you, and seek to do right, it's amazing how simple and real God's plan is.
DnA
Living Free said:
ReplyDelete"but you're not free to serve him the way he wants you too. You're tied to an Organization, that puts strict rules on what you can do and not do in your church."
DnA said:
Amen Deb, that about sums it up. We were subject to ordinances and laws that made us like robots. While I was in the ntcc, I prayed and read my bible and was a model church member and soul winner, but I was buried in rules and all my thoughts and actions were controlled by men who were an extension of Rwd. This form of Christianity was so restrictive and degrading that joy and real happiness were something that you had to work hard to achieve and just when you thought you were on top of the world it was time for someone to come along and tell you that you were full of pride.
It was against the law to enjoy your salvation in the ntcc. Oh you could jump and shout in a conference or a revival. You could joke and laugh along with the brethren but whenever you started to really shine and succeed it was time to pull the rug out from under you. If you began to enjoy your life in Christ for a prolonged period of time, you would be quickly put in your place.
When I left the borg fifteen years ago, I became a responsible human being and started to enjoy freedom that I never realized belonged to me. I made some bad decisions and did many things that I'm ashamed of to this day, but I also learned a lot about freedom. While I didn't choose Christ at that time, I learned that there was a lot of potential inside of me that had never been tapped. I felt like I had a brand new lease on life. All of the things that made me who I am, the working parts, were brand new and never taken out of the box. I felt like I had a brain that had very seldom been used in the ntcc. The freedom to make your own decisions and carve out a niche in this world was so fulfilling.
Recently some very important things took place in my life. The greatest of these was that I came to the realization that God still loved me and cared about me. What I thought was impossible, God showed me He could accomplish. I'm not trying to be super spiritual here, I'm just saying that in spite of everything, God had mercy on me. He does this every day and then leaves it up to us to decide what to do with the gift He has given us. If you asked me what is the difference between Christianity outside of the ntcc and what seemed real to me on the inside, I'd have to say just about everything.
The preachers in the ntcc call themselves fruit inspectors. That's their job to go around and inspect everyone elses fruit so they can put them in their place and jack them up. I say that there is plenty in my own life to concern me, and it's not my place to question or find fault with other peoples Christianity. If these ntcc busybodies would concern themselves with their own short comings and worry about their own salvation they would find that it's a full time job. All hypocrisy and double standards set aside, what good does it do for anyone to ram a bunch of strict rules down people's throats and convince them that they need to ask permission from you to escape your presence for longer than a few hours?
Why were you late to dinner? Where were you during fellowship? Why were you flipping through your bible during church? How come you didn't pick up so and so for church? How come you didn't make your bed today? Have you put in for your leave to attend conference? Did you remember to pay your tithe? Did you remember to pay your home offering? Did you remember to pay your world missions? Why is your car leaking oil on the driveway? How many of your contacts did you pray for today? Why are you using the home's phone to call your family? Give me a break.
DnA
Go Anony, you got them good. YEA YEA!!
ReplyDeleteDnA quoted...
ReplyDeleteWhile in NTCC, I asked permission to go home to see my dying grandmother
Chief said...
Great observation DnA. Why in the world should a grown adult have to ask their "church" permission to do anything? What a bunch of garbage. I'll tell you why. Brainwashing at it's best. You don't ask your church permission, you tell your church you are going to visit or vacation or whatever else you plan to do. In many cases you don't even owe them that much. That is the problem. RWD preaches freedom, freedom, freedom but he places you in bondage and slavery at the same time.
Since I left the NTCC, (thank God) I didn't ask permission to take my daughter to college! I didn't ask permission to go to St. Martin, St. Thomas and the Bahamas. I didn't ask permission to go hunting deer for an entire day from dawn to sunset. I didn't ask permission to go visit my mother. I didn't report to someone if I wasn't going to be in church. I simply made my own decisions as an ADULT. Just like RWD and Kekel do. I don't see Kekel the con artist asking permission for anything.
I have a serious question. Do you see Grant Kekel asking permission to do things at his secular catholic college? I didn't ask permission to accept the job I'm currently working or the one before that or the one before that. I didn't ask permission to purchase any of the three vehicles I currently own.
You NTCCers are getting played and the worst part is you aren't even serving God. You are serving some control freak who ain't even saved named RDUB. The blind leading the blind.
Chief
So, you stayed in Colorado to be with your mother. Who was the Pastor there the? Or do you know?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said:
ReplyDelete"So, you stayed in Colorado to be with your mother. Who was the Pastor there the? Or do you know?"
DnA said:
At the time I was on leave to attend a conference. I had been in the Army for about 7 years, was an E-6 and was steered away from bible school by Rwd. While on leave my mom told me that she had just found out that she had cancer and was given 6 months by the doctors to live. She asked me if there was any way I could stay in Colorado and be with her. At first I told her no and this broke her heart. When she asked me why, my answer was cold and indifferent, ntcc style: "I have to be where God wants me to be".
I was supposed to return to Korea, where Rev. Barnes had just started a Servicemen's Home and Rev. Wright had taken it over due to Rev. Barnes PCSing back to the states. While at home on leave, I was commuting 140 miles round trip from Denver to Colorado Springs to attend every church function they had down there. At that time, the Tieman's were pastoring if you want to call it that.
The Tieman's wanted me to apply for a compassionate reassignment not because they cared about my mother but because I was bringing people out to their church and was considered "A blessing" ($$$E-6 pay-rate$$$) at the time. Tom Wright was writing me letters and we were talking on the phone. He was expecting me to come back to Korea. I was totally torn and having a hard time making this decision. The Wrights thought it was God's will for me to go back to Korea, which was my original intention, and the Tieman's said it was God's plan for me to stay in Colorado Springs. Rwd got involved because Tieman called him and told him that the Wrights were trying to influence me to make a decision against my will. Rwd didn't want to get involved so he told the Tieman's that the decision was up to me. David Tieman told me that Rwd said for me to pray about it and do what God wanted me to do and then he politicked for me to stay.
Meanwhile the Tieman's were making a few obligatory gestures towards my mother like they really cared for her. Later when she died, I remember Nichelle Tieman telling me to stop lying to myself that she went to heaven. How wicked is that? They never cared about my Mom. All they really cared about was the tithe envelope stuffed full of E-6 pay and carloads of people that I was bringing to their church.
When My wife started attending services and we became interested in each other they made sure that they would reward me well for the decision that I made to stay with them by separating Ange and I for twenty years. Do I sound mad or bitter? I know that many of you ntcc types out there will say that we should just get on with our lives quietly and let time and God heal us. Well guess what? There are people out there that are enduring the same psychological brain manipulation and control that we endured. We feel compelled to warn people about this group.
I hope this answered your question Anonymous. Not sure what angle you are taking on this but it is what it is.
DnA
To answer any other questions you have about Don, you can read his story at either of these links:
ReplyDeletemobile view
traditional view
It's a good look at how things really are IN the ntcc. It tells who was where when and what they were doing. It shows the frequency of adultery and sexual misconduct in ntcc servicemens' homes. It shows how much power an ntcc 'minister' wields and why that is a bad thing.
If you want the truth, read it.
If you want to believe a lie, don't read it. It will compel you to take a hard look at ntcc and how they really see G.I.s as nothing more than something to be used up and discarded.
Don and Ange
aka former
SSG Tumioli
Sgt. Reggio.
"I felt like I had a brand new lease on life. All of the things that made me who I am, the working parts, were brand new and never taken out of the box."
ReplyDeleteIsn't that the truth! My experience has been that after wading through the NTCC obstacle course for years, everything is easy now. When all the extra overhead is removed, and you don't have to deal with the manifold hindrances in your path, and when your energy hasn't been sapped by false guilt, it's smooth sailing.
"Thorns [and] snares [are] in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them."
Captive people, do yourselves a favor and get out of that froward NTCC way. Your soul will thank you.
anon ntccer, it is obvious that you are not here to answer for the org. so why even bother? you just make them look guilty by dodging questions. thats why i dont blame the leadership form banning ntccers from blogs.
ReplyDelete