Let's consider tithe for a moment here. I'm not writing this article to defend or refute the doctrine of compulsory tithing. Some folks believe that tithing is a New Testament biblical mandate while others maintain that there is no New Testament scriptural evidence to validate such assertions. Either way, people will believe what they believe and that is not going to stop. What we do know is that the New Testament Christian Church leadership teaches that if you don't pay tithe, you are certainly going to hell when you die. Where this article is concerned, I'm fine with that assertion.So lets look at who the New Testament Christian Church leadership teaches that you should pay tithe to? The pastor of your church, am I right? In the Old Testament, the children of Israel payed tithe to the Levites because they weren't otherwise given an inheritance by the Lord. That seems to be the model that the NTCC has adopted. Having said that I have a few questions. Who does RWD and Kekel pay tithe to? I doubt Kekel writes out a tithe check and gives it to RWD so lets assume Kekel and RWD make tithe checks out to New Testament Christian Church INC, a Missouri Corporation, and lets assume that the checks are deposited into a corporate account in Graham or St. Louis. OK, I'm find with that. Well who controls the money in that account? That's easy, RWD. And what do you suppose that money is spent on? Whatever RWD wants to spend it on. The extremely nice RVs he enjoys, more rental properties? Maybe the property that he had previously placed in the NTCCs name and gifted to the Kekels? I don't know and neither do you (unless you are RWD or Kekel) but it gets spent on something, and for certain that something is a direct benefit to RWD and Kekel? New song books or nice pews for the chapel in "GRAHAM". Upgrades to all the NTCC property in "GRAHAM". We don't know because contrary to the way money is meticulously monitored in the NTCC satellite churches, there is no financial transparency or system of checks and balances in Graham. Do you suppose tithe money sent to Graham from Atlanta or Ft. Hood was used for the church in Atlanta or the church Fort Hood for example? Of course not so that brings about my next question.
If RWD and Kekel basically pay tithe to themselves i.e. to accounts which they have control of, why don't other NTCC pastors do the same? Davis is not a Levite or a son of Aaron so why pay him tithe when you are the pastor of your own church? Because he is the quote, "senior apostle"? Where in the Bible does it say to pay tithe to the "senior apostle"? Certainly not in 2 Corinthians because Paul, (who was the senior Apostle) physically present with the church in Corinth for 1 1/2 years, (Acts 18:11) didn't accept a dime from that church and more importantly he refused to, (2 Cor 11:9). So if the church in Corinth was not required to pay Paul tithe and Paul was right there with the Corinthians ministering for 1 1/2 years, why do you NTCC pastors send your tithe to Graham Washington to be controlled by RWD who doesn't minister to you at all? Come on let's be real, you might even talk to the guy maybe once every 6 months if that?
So here is my point and please NTCC Pastors, be open minded. Why do you send tithe to Graham when Kekel/RWD and the NTCC INC have their own "church" accounts which are supposedly funded by their tithe, their church members tithe and the tithe from ministers who live there? RWD wouldn't fund someone else's church in a million years so why do you? Your tithe should stay in your own church account that you and your church have control of. That way you wouldn't have to call Graham to ask permission to buy this or buy that and you wouldn't have to ask permission to spend more than $50. RWD would never do that so why do you? I know the answer the NTCC leadership gives because I've been told this by NTCC leaders. You NTCC pastors don't have control of the money that you bring into your church because the NTCC leadership doesn't trust you! Ok that's fine but conversely, why should you trust them to do right by the money that you send to Graham when you could just keep it right in your church? Trust is a two way street Brother!!! You can't say that keeping your tithe money in your church is wrong, from a doctrinal standpoint because that is exactly what RWD and Kekel does. They wouldn't control my escrow account either, not for one second, but that is a "slightly" different subject. Once you become a pastor, your tithe should stay in your church, period. If you want to make sure that your tithe is given as unto the Lord, then deposit it into an account that will only be used to purchase things for YOUR church or to be used as charity for the poor, fatherless or widow just like the Apostles did in 1 Cor 16 and Romans 15:26.
If I were an NTCC pastor, there is no way on God's green earth that I'm taking any of the money that my church members gave in good faith and send it to Graham Washington so the Kekel's can use it to get another mansion when the first one they had wasn't good enough. You NTCC pastors are getting duped.
Chief
Jeff, still don't comprehend alot about how the finances were done because I wasn't involved in that part of the ministry, but I was privy to some details of it.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all as soon as the man goes off to bible school he starts paying tithe to the ntcc org, and later on when he goes to pastor a church it gets more involved.
Maybe somebody that was a pastor has a copy of the weekly report so that you could see what I mean:
In it is states plainly all that you had to do:
There's a line that says: FINANCES ENCLOSED (please use separate checks)
PERSONAL TITHE
PASTORS TITHE
CHURCH INSURANCE
CHURCH PAYMENT
CHURCH TITHE
BUILDING FUND
I mean it was a long list and that is what I remember because it was longer.
Then the escrow was separate from all of these funds and kept separate.
Chief said:
ReplyDelete"In the Old Testament, the children of Israel payed tithe to the Levites because they weren't otherwise given an inheritance by the Lord."
and
" Davis is not a Levite so why pay tithe to him?"
DnA said:
The Levites were a lot different than Davis. Davis has an inheritance. He has inherited more riches and wealth than anyone in the ntcc and we were the ones that he inherited from. Many of us have given him a large portion of our futures and have sacrificed a lot so he can rule and reign like a king.
If you use the Old Testament model as a model for tithe, than Davis should be providing for all of the Priests (Pastors) in his order. They should all be on salary and be provided for as the Children of Israel gave 10% to the entire tribe of Levy, not just the high priest. There is no model in the Old Testament or New Testament that mirrors the ntcc model.
Where do you find anywhere in God's word that the founder of a religious organization should charge a 10% tax on every increase of every member of every church? The Levites never were required to pay tithe because their purpose was to minister. The Pastors shouldn't be paying tithe to Davis either. Davis is a entrepreneur. He saw an opportunity to make a bundle and he took it. The ntcc has made up their own model of tithe and passed it off as "God's will".
It's all a big scam, and the longer you give to the ntcc, the more money you will be flushing down the toilet. If you really want to do something for God, the best thing you can do is leave the ntcc and take your members with you. Tell them that you all were deceived about tithe and the ntcc is nothing more than a collection agency that has made up a bunch of rules under the guise of Christianity, to extract money out of good people with blind loyalty.
Take your members and ask them if they want to start a church that is not corrupted by greed. Start in your house and be honest with people and transparent. Ask them to give as God has blessed them or as they see fit, and then show them where their money is going. Save up for a church building of your own and don't send Graham a dime. Don't get greedy and don't try to get rich and I would venture to say people will see your sincerity and they will get in with you and people will want to be part of your church.
DnA
Don and Ange, I hear what you are saying but for the sake of some good two sided dialogue, lets assume that New Testament tithing is biblical. For the sake of this article, I'm not saying that paying tithe during the dispensation of grace is right or wrong. What I am saying is that there is no reason, biblical or otherwise, for a pastor, (who believes in paying tithe during the dispensation of grace)to send tithe money to Graham. And by the way, DnA, you made a really good point. If we pay tithe to a pastor, who is likened to a levitical priest, that pastor shouldn't have to pay tithe to another pastor who is likened to a levitical priest who in this case is RWD. There is no way you can justify that from the Bible. Hence, there is no way an NTCC pastor, who is likened to a levitical priest, should send money to Graham. That money should stay in his church to be used for his church or for a godly purpose. What I'm trying to do is help people who believe in paying tithe. People are going to pay tithe and that is not going to change but what can change is that they stop sending their tithe money and or any portion of the tithe that comes into their church to Graham. They should have positive control of it and keep it in their church. Who does RWD think his is, the POPE?
ReplyDeleteIf the NTCC leadership conned you into agreeing to send them tithe every month, then you should flip it around and have Graham send your church tithe every month. Graham shouldn't be the only group which gets to pay tithe to themselves to control it however they want.
Chief
Okay, for the purpose of this blog post and to go along with people that hold personal convictions to pay tithe and follow all the other rules in the ntcc, we'll go along with that. By the way, Chief, really good post. I don't know how these people can keep shoveling their money to crooks like Davis and the likes of him. If the ntcc were the equivalent to the Levitical Priesthood, they would have to spread the wealth to all of the priests and all those that served in the order of the Levites. Tithe that goes to Graham gets sucked up into a swirling vortex that nobody in the ntcc is privileged to know about except a select few.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I was wrong in my statement above where I said the Levites didn't pay tithe, because they did, to the sons of Aaron. But the tithe that was paid by all the tribes of Israel went to support the tribe of Levi. My mistake, I never attended that class in the ntcs and the Old Testament Law is not my area of expertise. I can tell you explicitly what the New Testament says though. "It is Finished". The Law has been swallowed up by grace. The law is only good to those who keep it in it's entirety.
DnA
DnA said...
ReplyDeleteI never attended that class in the ntcs and the Old Testament Law is not my area of expertise.
Chief said...
Guys like Kekel attended class with the NTCS, and the Old Testament Law isn't their area of expertise either. If it was, they wouldn't have completely misinterpreted scriptures like Deu 22:5. New Testament grace certainly isn't their area of expertise either or they wouldn't constantly try to place their converts back under the Old Testament Law whenever it suits their agenda.
Chief
DnA said...
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I was wrong in my statement above where I said the Levites didn't pay tithe, because they did, to the sons of Aaron.
Chief said...
So I suppose that RWD is a son of Aaron? That explains it. NOT!!!!
Chief
"By the way, I was wrong in my statement above where I said the Levites didn't pay tithe, because they did, to the sons of Aaron.
ReplyDeleteChief said...
So I suppose that RWD is a son of Aaron? That explains it. NOT!!!!"
RW did use this system to justify the "church tithe" scam. He told us that just like the Levites did, we were to tithe the tithe to a higher authority.
We didn't have an escrow back when, but they didn't want us stockpiling any money. We were required to sent to HQ all building funds and any evangelistic funds. They didn't trust us to oversee them, and when we needed them, we had to put in a request (that they might or might not honor).
The whole thing is riduculous. When one "actually" takes the time to study the issue of tithe it becomes obvious it's not a NT teaching period. In fact, the early church nor their immediate successors practiced it. If memory serves around the time of Constantines (supposed) conversion and a "professional" ministry was established with buildings it became in vogue. Point of fact the tithe God set forth was "NEVER" money to begin with. It was always increase of the land/animals (food). Hence, in the oft quited Malachi...he says bring ye all the "food"...that there may be "meat" in my house.
ReplyDeleteFor those who dont know the bible and claim they did not have money back then....ask them what did Abraham use to buy the burial area of his wife or how many pieces of silver was given for Joseph to be sold into slavery. Money was mentioned dozens of times. Yet, when God institutes tithe he never mentions it. Lastly, Paul said as every man has purposed in his own heart. Either this is true or its a lie.
The reason why tithe is in vogue in many churches today is not for want of knowledge anyone can research it but rather its for want of money by the clergy in most cases. Even those who pay it often do so with the intent of getting something back...10 will get you 20.
I just want to repeat what I posted in the previous thread. Can I get a shout out of all those that have heard it preached if you eat at McDonald's, you don't pay at Burger King!!??!!
ReplyDeleteThen they go on to explain that if you are getting fed at NTCC, you shouldn't send your money back home or to another church.
THEN THE DOUBLE STANDARD:::
"Brother, since there is no NTCC in your area, even though you will be attending another church, send your tithe to Graham."
I have heard and seen it with my own eyes and ears!!!!! Olson, that is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!! Send it to Graham? For what!!!???
Must've wanted to make sure they can go out to eat or something.
And what is up with Kekel correcting typos on his blog...and yet can't face what the anon was trying to say. He is so immature! Definitely red-nec. How u like dat spelleeng kekill?
WE shouldn't even give him hits on his blog to read the comments...but I didn't know if I could copy and paste it here.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteTHEN THE DOUBLE STANDARD:::
"Brother, since there is no NTCC in your area, even though you will be attending another church, send your tithe to Graham."
I have heard and seen it with my own eyes and ears!!!!! Olson, that is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!! Send it to Graham? For what!!!???
Chief said...
Exactly. NTCC pastors shouldn't send anything to Graham. Anon, you made some real good points.
Chief
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe whole thing is ridiculous. When one "actually" takes the time to study the issue of tithe it becomes obvious it's not a NT teaching period.
Chief said...
I hear you and I'm not disputing what you say but I'm taking a different approach. Millions of people in the USA firmly believe in paying tithe and with few exceptions, you are not going to change their minds on what they believe but I'll tell you one thing that's become obvious to me. Dudes and more specifically "Pastors" who will never stop believing in the doctrine of paying tithe during the dispensation of grace, will stop advocating the practice of sending their money to Graham and that is a proven fact.
Many of them want to keep their money in their own church just as much as RWD wants to have them send it to Graham. Denis is a prime example. Denis can say whatever he wants but the main reason Denis left the NTCC had nothing to do with compromise. The main reason RWD left his former church decades ago had nothing to do with compromise. The reason Barnes left the NTCC was the same as those other two, no doubt. All three of them got tired of coughing up the money which came directly to them or to their churches to some wannabe Levite like RWD. So what did all three of them do; RWD, Denis and Barnes? They broke away from someone else's church to run their own church and more importantly have exclusive control of the money which would come into "their" newly established church and I don't blame them one bit!!! All there may be crooks, (which they are) but I don't fault them for wanting to run their own show and have control of the money that their show brought in.
I talked to Denis prior to the split and Denis spoke as much money as he did about compromise by far. RWD openly testified that he prayed to become a millionaire and I was in the church in RWDs presents when he said it. Practically every time (if not every time) my wife and I visited Barnes's church, he talked about money from the pulpit and what belonged to him. I know good and well what I'm talking about and I'm sure of it. I can't say I'm sure about too many things but this is one of them I am sure about. So what's my point?
Many people are never going to stop paying tithe and I'm fine with that because it is their money but many people will leave the NTCC and one of the main contributing factors will be them getting sick and tired of sending their money to Graham and rightfully so. If you believe in tithing, it is what it is, but the way the NTCC practices it is dead wrong from any perspective.
If you are a pastor, your money should stay in your own church just like RWD keeps his money in his own church. RWD is no more of a Levite or child or Aaron than you are so once you've become a pastor/priest (so to speak) there is no reason for you to send that dude your money anymore. Pay it as unto the Lord and pay it to your own church just like RWD has for decades. Why in the world would you follow a guy like RWD and not follow his example? If I wasn't planning on following his example, I wouldn't follow him period and I most certainly wouldn't send him my money! If you are a church member, do you want to pay tithe to your pastor in your church, knowing good and well it's never going to get used in your own local church but rather get sent away to Graham to get blown on houses and RVs? Yes you pay tithe as unto the Lord but show me in the Bible where God expects you to be ignorant and have no clue how the money is being used or where it's being sent to?
Chief
Great topic Chief, and the truth is what sets people free! The tithing doctrine in the Christian churches is a lie and keeps God's innocent children in bondage. I would argue that the greed of the so-called men of God in our society today and their great lie of tithing has done more to hurt the work of God then has satan himself! I believe that God is raising up a new breed of preachers who will tell people about the truth of God's word and dispute the lie of tithes in this dispensation of Grace!
ReplyDeleteGod is going to get rid of all of these tithes preaching preachers!
God never intended a man of God to collect money from his children, because the love of money is the root of all evil!
Among other reasons, the practice and teaching of the tithe by davis was one of the reasons I left the NTCC. I never believed that if a person does not pay tithe that they would go to hell! I paid tithe because davis required tithe to be paid, I wanted to support the church, and I believed the lie that God would bless you if you pay tithe!Once I realized what they were doing with the tithes money I refused to support this den of thieves! God will not bless you any more or any less because of a tithe! God will bless you when you give, and when you give to the poor God will truly bless you, because giving to the poor is doing the work of God! What davis and kekel are doing is nothing resembling the work of Christ and his disciples. davis and kekel have grown exceedingly wealthy by defrauding innocent men and women with the brainwashing tithe doctrine that they constantly feed to people every opportunity that they get, and that is definitely every time they see you.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI recall Pop Gaylord saying tithe goes to the storehouse- the "place where the sheep are fed". Now think, was your SOUL fed there? or BLED there? Only after one leaves NTCC does one find- so much of the WORD they (NTCC) is IGNORANT of... and therefore disqualified to receive any tithes, IF it was required under the NT.
ReplyDeleteand BTW, how about Jeremiah 10- those BRUTISH pastors who shear the sheep?
Jeremiah 10:21
For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jeremiah 12:10
Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Jeremiah 23:1
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:2
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
AMEN.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteGod is going to get rid of all of these tithes preaching preachers!
Chief said...
I genuinely appreciate your views and your participation but I don't think God is going to get rid of these tithe preaching preachers and here is why I say that. The Catholics have been teaching indulgences for centuries and for all intensive purposes they still do. I know, I was raised as a Catholic.
There are rapists and ruthless murderers and folks who torture children who God didn't stop. I even read an article where this sick sadistic creep kidnapped this little girl, raped her, abused her and then buried her ALIVE. God didn't stop that from taking place so respectfully and frankly, I have no reason to feel that God is going to stop these preachers from doing anything. There is no physical or tangible evidence to suggest that God gets too involved in such matters cause folks have been requiring that their Christian congregates pay tithe for centuries. The Catholics been doing it for centuries for sure and they are just as corrupt as the NTCC.
If God's judgment does come around on these matters, it certainly ain't happening rapidly. And once again, frankly, if Gods judgment comes fast on these crooked preachers whats to say that the next time I mess up, that God's judgment doesn't come down on me? As I get older, I feel that predicting and wishing for God's judgment is a slippery slope. Some may call it having a guilty conscience but I'm not in too big of a hurry to have God's judgment come down on folks lest it come down on me also. Now the sick dude who raped the little girl and buried her alive, as far as I'm concerned, God could strike that creep with a bolt of lightning and fry him like a toasted marshmellow and I'd have no problem with that at all. My conscience ain't that guilty.
Chief
Chief said...
ReplyDeleteIf God's judgment does come around on these matters, it certainly ain't happening rapidly.
Chief said...
After I wrote this, I read what my friend double-D wrote and I felt the need to edit my statement: When God's judgment does eventually come around on these matters, it will have taken a long, long time to come to pass. God's merciful.
Chief
As a former member, I feel Tithe is right, however, once I left I stopped paying tithe. If I understand what several people are saying here, Davis preaches if you move to another area where there is no NTCC church you should attend that church BUT you should still send your tithe check back to Graham. How are you being FED by the Graham church if you do not attend that church but you are attending a different church of some other denomination. When I stopped attending the NTCC I stopped getting FED by that church. My question is, does Davis say you need to send your tithe to Graham? This is so wrong on every level. I want to confirm what I am reading here, thanks for the clarification...
ReplyDeleteNot Davis per say but Olsen.
ReplyDeleteDavis, Olsen, whoever, it sounds like that is what they expect. I have heard it preached over the pulpit, if you got saved here, why would you go to another church. So, in other words, if I got saved at the NTCC why would I go elsewhere, like no other church can give me what the NTCC gives me. This is a bunch of hogwash. To make us feel we can't be saved in any other church but theirs. In other words there is not other "Christian" churchs other than the NTCC. This feeds into the thought that if you aren't with the NTCC then you are not right with God... Yeah right. Tell me another lie. This is the kind of propaganda they preach in Graham. They can't deny it. This is what I have heard. Over and over and over again.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAs a former member, I feel Tithe is right, however, once I left I stopped paying tithe.
Chief said...
In reference to your last question, people have stated that they were persuaded by NTCC pastors to pay them tithe even though for a period of time they were attending a different church. Now about your statement that I quoted. You just gave the NTCC leadership some good preaching material and they love it. I can just here them now: "Yep, when people leave the NTCC they quit serving GAWD and there is proof, right on Collins' blog. Someone left the "program of GAWD" and they admitted in writing that even though they know that paying tithe is the right thing to do, they stopped paying tithe and lost out with GAWD. And now, when hard times come, and they wonder why they ain't got no money and can't find a job, they can trace their problems right back to the day that they stopped paying tithe. You can't cheat GAWD and get away with it. You see that's what happens when you go on that stinking blog and consort with the devil and stop paying tithe within the program of GAWD."
And Chief says...
Fooey. I looked at my checking and savings accounts today and they contain more money than I've ever had in my life and I no longer give squat to the NTCC. My accounts are increasing and they are increasing fast by the thousands. I'm not bragging but rather making effort to chronicle known evidence which shows proof that giving to the NTCC crooks far more often than not, results in you being monetarily poorer, not richer. I could never save money like I am right now while I was with the NTCC and that is just the way it is. Having money may not make you more spiritual but it sure makes life here on this earth a whole lot easier and RWD figured that out a long time ago.
If you are essentially broke and you want to stay that way, just keep giving your money to the likes of RWD and Kekel and you'll be heading down a fast road to continued poverty. What's the answer if want out of poverty? Get a good job and keep it, pay off all your debts and stop giving your money to the NTCC and watch what happens. Unless you are a dummy, I'll guarantee you'll save money just like I am and have a good time in the process. Buddy I want to retire some day and in the NTCC, (unless you are one of RWD's henchmen) that ain't never going to happen.
You should have health insurance, dental insurance, life insurance (at least $300,000) and at a bare, bare, bare minimum at the very least $5000 dollars cash available for personal use. If you are an NTCC minister and you don't have all that, you certainly don't have any business being a full time minister. If you are not a full time minister don't have the stuff I mentioned, you aren't working enough hours, you are giving too much money to the NTCC, you ain't got the right job and you are spending too much time in church. Get some of that. Oh, it's OK for you to be broke but your mighty leader RWD wouldn't dream of living like that in a million years?
Chief
Chief, I don't buy that for a minute, let Davis or any of them preach that. I don't care, I pay tithe to the church that I go to. I don't go to NTCC so why would I pay tithe to them any longer. There is no sermon in what I said at all. I pay tithe to the church I attend, not the church I use to attend.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteChief, I don't buy that for a minute, let Davis or any of them preach that. I don't care, I pay tithe to the church that I go to.
Chief said...
Being that you are the same person who's latest statement I referenced, I got the impression that you didn't pay tithe any longer at all. I got that impression because you posted this:
"As a former member, I feel Tithe is right, however, once I left I stopped paying tithe."
I got the impression from that statement that you meant that you "stopped paying tithe" altogether but now I understand that you meant that you stopped paying tithe to the NTCC. All I was saying is that the NTCC leaders frequently use statements like that preaching material. I'm no longer with the NTCC either, (of course) so I could care less what they preach about. Additionally, it doesn't matter to me who pays tithe and who doesn't. I just hate to see people paying tithe to a bunch of crooks but millions and millions of people do exactly that every day with this whole modern day prosperity preaching which exists all throughout America. I understand what you were saying now. Cool.
Chief
Chief, can you please start a post about the racial issues within the NTCC. I have heard mumblings of past situations. I don't know if you are aware but in Graham, I would say that the number of minorities is about 50/50.
ReplyDeleteAre people aware of the problems with racial issues within the NTCC. I have heard that Davis used the "N" word. This surprised me when I heard this some years back, this is before I found out what a sham the NTCC really is. This is a important issue that I would like to see addressed here. In my earlier days I would wonder to myself why would a Christian minister say such a word about his so called brothers and sisters in the Lord? Christians should not be prejudiced at all. Also, I hear that ministers where told not to marry outside of their race. This seems contrary to Biblical teachings. I was really surprised when I heard this. Can you please address this in a future post? If I was attending a church where the "pastor" has made racial remarks I would want to know and I would say to myself. Why on earth do I attend the NTCC when my "pastor" uses racial terms and does not want me to marry outside my race. Maybe some people don't care about racial issues within a church, but I think it is very important. The NTCC claims to be a Christian church, however, using racial slurs and forbidding to marry outide my race is not a "Christian" like attitude.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteChief, can you please start a post about the racial issues within the NTCC.
Chief said...
This has actually been discussed on several occasions all over the blogs and forums which exist of have existed. I'll address it now. Different people who are former NTCC ministers have testified that Davis and Kekel have thrown around the word "nigger" quite freely in the past. Apparently not too, too many years ago, Kekel threw it out there and someone got quite upset and openly called him out on it during a church service. I don't remember the details but I do clearly remember the event being mentioned. Apparently, RWD used to toss around the word "nigger" somewhat often. I wouldn't know if he still does because I'm not around him and I don't personally know anyone who is.
The alleged purpose behind him using the word was to test the sensitivity of certain people in order to see if they were easily offended. If they were quote "easily offended" the NTCC leadership claimed that they hadn't grown enough spiritually and the NTCC leadership would regularly quote this scripture to solidify their hypothesis:
Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
So basically, the NTCC leadership was saying that no matter is said to you, if you love the law of the Lord, nothing shall offend you to include being referred to as a "nigger". Well like everything else the NTCC does with the scriptures, they misused and abused this scripture as well. They did so by deliberately and constantly doing and saying things to people which were quite obviously offensive and if and when someone did get noticeably offended, the NTCC leadership or NTCC pastor would chastise them for being too thin skinned. These things were regularly done while the whole time, clearly and in reality, it was the NTCC leadership who instigated the entire situation and they made a practice of playing this game with the use of the word "nigger". Well that is a sick, psychologically abusive practice and if I ever run into one of those creeps in town and they ever try that junk around my wife or my little boy (which in reality they most likely wouldn't) then they'll be deal with. Black people shouldn't put up with that garbage and Davis and Kekel wouldn't do it if deep down inside they both weren't a couple racists and that is the way I see it.
Now as far as the interracial marriage thing goes. I'm a white guy married to a back woman and I have some direct experience with the NTCC concerning these matters. Three NTCC pastors have told me that I couldn't be used by God and more specifically I wouldn't pastor if I married a black woman. Two pastors I had before I ever got married, "STRONGLY APPOSED" black and white interracial marriages. The third pastor made reference to the same after I was married. They said that RWD didn't approve of black and white interracial marriages. I was told this as far back as 1985 and as recently as 2003. The reason cited was that there were too many racial tensions which existed in America and too many people would be inwardly turned away from an NTCC church if it were lead by a black and white couple. Well that excuse is garbage because the NTCC doesn't have a problem and never has had a problem with practicing a host of other things which drive people away from their church. The NTCC leadership didn't care about other interracial marriages such as white and oriental and hispanic and white. Such interracial marriages are actually promoted within the NTCC most notably being unions between "WHITE MEN and FILIPINO WOMEN" and why do you suppose that is? Because Tanya Kekel is half Filipino for sure and possibly the biological daughter of RWD and a filipino woman outside of wedlock. There is evidence which clearly suggests that to be a distinct possibility.
Continued from above...
ReplyDeleteHaving said all that, I'm convinced beyond reasonable doubt, that the real reason behind RWDs liberal use of the word "nigger" and his aversion to specifically interracial "black and white" marriages had nothing to do with the reasons cited by the NTCC leadership. I'm convinced that deep down inside, (maybe not so deep) RWD and Kekel are both racists who specifically have certain problems with black people. I say this for a variety of reasons to include references made by RWD and Kekel about the natural texture of black women's hair and their endless pursuit to have black woman look more like white woman.
RWD and Kekel will insist otherwise but that's the way I see it, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. So you ask: "If that is the case CHIEF, then why are there so many black people in the NTCC".
Well the answer is an easy one and I've actually heard RWD make this statement in support of other things he talked about, "Everyone's money spends the same". Dude, RWD could care less what race you are as long as you give him your money, PERIOD!!! He'll put up with anyone to include black people for the right price and he has but he didn't do it without an occasional blurt of the word, "nigger" and Kekel has a history of the same. I'm telling you right now, RWD would laugh about this but deep down, inside, I think RWD and Kekel both have some racism toward blacks and I could care less how many blacks have been in the NTCC! You don't throw around the word, "nigger" and essentially ban black and white marriages when you are a white dude, if you don't have some deep down racism towards blacks, and with RWD and Kekel, I'm not so certain it very deep down.
Explain to me why so many black leaders have left the NTCC? Denis, Barnes, Bellamy and the list goes on. Wasn't Curry black? Even some of those guys could say that they didn't perceive racism but simultaneously they didn't like the way they were treated and to me there is little distinction between the two. Denis openly stated that racism against blacks existed within the NTCC and he wasn't the first to make such a statement. I don't know who the first was but I know it wasn't him.
I don't even want to hear about L.D. Jones because I know for a fact that he is no more than a yes man. Jones should have stuck up for himself a long time ago when RWD was dogging him out but he is the kind of dude who won't rock the boat if you get what I'm saying. All Jones wanted was to be an overseer and he didn't care how much he had to keep his mouth shut to get there and I know this FOR A FACT.
Well I'm a fan of Mordecai, not Uncle Tom. For those of you who don't know what that means, here is a good definition of "Uncle Tom" and I'm quoting someone else's reference.
"The phrase "Uncle Tom" has also become an epithet for a person who is slavish and excessively subservient to perceived authority figures, particularly a black person who behaves in a subservient manner to white people or any person perceived to be a participant in the oppression of their own group."
Anyone who doesn't speak up in defense of themselves, falls in that category and it doesn't matter if you are white or black. I know that Jones didn't speak up for himself when he received some poor treatment at the hand of the NTCC leadership and more specifically RWD because Jones told me. I may be somewhat out of place for saying this, but I think Black people in the NTCC should get their identity back. There is nothing wrong with a Black woman wearing her hair in a fashion other than being pressed mostly straight with a heat comb. An afro looks beautiful on a Black woman and there is NOTHING wrong with it. What is wrong with Black gospel? Have black people in the NTCC sold out to all that honky tonk, hee-haw, southern country gospel stuff?
Continued from above...
ReplyDeleteSee that is what I'm talking about. I suppose an afro is worldly but being a white dude and wearing your hair slicked to the side like you are a 1920s mobster isn't? Black gospel music is worldly but that honky tonk, hee-haw, country gospel stuff that all them NTCC good old boys like to listen to isn't? You can be an Uncle Tom if you want to but I ain't the one. My wife wears an afro thank you and she looks sexy with it and the NTCC can kiss my butt. I'm not ashamed to be married to a black woman who doesn't mind looking black. Hey, if you like wearing you hair straight that's fine and there is nothing wrong with that, but don't take that approach just because some NTCC racist control monger has convinced you that you look "worldly" if you are a black woman and you have your hair all nice and curly.
Oh, I know what some of you will say, "Oh that Chief, well I look like a real sanctified Christian woman and I'm serving the Lord or my wife is a sanctified Christian woman and we are serving the Lord".
Chief says...
Oh really? Wearing your hair pressed mostly straight having been cooked with a heat comb so that it's breaking apart is what serving the Lord is all about? You can have that Christianity cause I'm not interested.
Chief
Isn't it ironic?...
ReplyDeleteAfter reading about this racism, I clicked on the recent visitors map and saw people viewing all over the US...and ONE in Africa!!!!
That was just cool to see! The only thing is...the circle was in the water on the mid-west side of the country...maybe someone flying over...?
I can say, I couldn't believe it when I heard Gesang in class say the words hag and fag! Everyone cracked up...but that is definitely not something you want to teach a bunch of so called preachers how to speak...especially over the pulpit. I know sin is sin, but they lose respect for people.
I have naturally curly hair, and I didn't want to bother pressing it, and thought my curls looked so pretty, until my first pastor, in front of the whole church (which was only like 10 people anyway) said to me, "You look like Medusa". I almost started crying right there. I never kept my natural curls again for fear of pleasing him.
ReplyDeleteBut NOW...I have embraced my curls and don't need some critical man telling me how to wear my hair. I get compliments all the time for it too. He had no right to say that and expect me to OBEY. All I can say is, "HOW RUDE!!!"
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThat some creep, racist, jerk, idiot of and NTCC pastor said... "You look like Medusa".
Chief said...
Try that on my wife? Make my day! I'd sue the NTCC for every dime they own. So this is the church that Black people should want to be a part of? "Good" white people shouldn't want to be a part of this mess; notice I said "good". Why do Black people put up with this garbage when you hear of testimonies like this? If L.D. Jones wasn't a yes man, he make a stand against this mess himself! Man, I'm a white dude and I wouldn't put up with that stuff and you are a Black Man and a leader in a church and you stand idly by and do nothing when you know that one of your Black Sister's was called a Medusa? Like I said earlier, "Uncle Tom". It is what it is. Every Black Man and Women in the NTCC should stand up to RWD about that mess and demand that it stop or call some organization that deals with racism and sue the pants of the New Testament Christian Church Incorporated. You hit that dude hard in his wallet and that mess would stop! Medusa? What kind of crap is that? That NTCC pastor should have been punched right in his face. Sister, if you don't mind, what was the name of that creep?
Oh, and I know what scripture some of you other NTCCers are thinking about when you say my assertions are wrong:
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
Chief said...
Really? Shouldn't your NTCC leaders also practice that applying that scripture? That last time I checked the expensive clothing that Tanya Kekel wears or the expensive suits that RWD wears fall in the catagory of "costly array". How about being real for one time in your life and tell me honestly that it doesn't? You can't because what I said was the stone cold truth!!!! I suppose the Kekel's son's tight football pants that Tanya and Mike payed for him to wear is considered "modest"? I suppose that Tanya Kekel's tight clothing is considered "modest"? You all are a bunch of hypocrites but you can overlook all that stuff and strain at a gnat by worrying about how a "BLACK WOMAN" wears her hair. Sister, (both figuratively and figuratively), (how do you like that) wear your hair as curly as you want, you look beautiful. You White Women look beautiful and you'd even look more beautiful if you'd stop running around looking like someone's greedy old grandmother.
Chief
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBut NOW...I have embraced my curls and don't need some critical man telling me how to wear my hair.
Chief said...
You go Woman! I'm sure you are looking a whole lot better than some of those snobbish NTCC women who are running around looking like someone's greedy great grandmother. Haah!
Chief
I'll also attest to the widely known fact that "nigger" was commonly bandied about by the NTCC leadership, particularly RW. I lived with Mike Kekel, and we all used the word liberally back then, in emulation of the "apostle." That's how screwed up the environment was, and how brainwashed we were. RW also frequently told racist jokes from the pulpit, many of which revolved around the word "nigger." He did this while claiming not to be a racist, and cited the number of black NTCC members as proof. Well, the plantation owners in the antebellum south had plenty of black folks around them too, so by that logic, even Simon Legree wasn't a racist.
ReplyDeleteIn one conference, RW openly mocked Reginald Terry's wife. She had a nice afro, and he called her "sister explosion," from the pulpit, in front of 1,000+ people--on her birthday, no less. It made her cry. We had a church member from Fairbanks at that conference, and she was so upset about it that she criticized RW to the Glascos (she was staying at their place). Of course they narked her out, and RW came to me and told me to "deal with her." So we stuck her on the next plane out--that's how we rolled when someone blasphemed the "apostle."
Just because RW has black folks around doesn't mean anything; as Chief has observed, while their skin is black, their money is still green. He'll tolerate any black person, just so long as they negate their culture and heritage and try to look and act white. NTCC is an Uncle Tom factory for sure.
Now I suppose that Vic Johanson's testimony is just another lie of the devil right? Why do black people or good white people put up with this mess? I know why, because just like we were, they are a bunch of brainwashed zombies but they don't have to be. These testimonies are true from real people who directly experienced that mess. White folks could take it personal but Black folks "should" take it personal.
ReplyDeleteYou all should stand up against this mess, get some self worth, and let RWD know exactly what you think about this junk the next time he is in front of 1000+ people in conference. And then every Black person in the whole auditorium should stand up, walk out, go get a good EO lawyer, and sue the snot out of the NTCC.
You see this is the kind of junk that's resulted in the existence of this blog.
Chief
Vic Johanson said...
ReplyDeleteWell, the plantation owners in the antebellum south had plenty of black folks around them too, so by that logic, even Simon Legree wasn't a racist.
Chief said...
Great point Vic. Just because you don't mind having a bunch of Black people around you to take care of your crops (which makes you money) or pay you tithe (which also makes you money) doesn't mean you are not a racist.
Chief
Even a racist will accept money from people regardless of what race they are a part of. Come on!!! It don't take a genius to figure that out and we know that RWD is all about money because he openly said in conference: "All that matters with building churches is money and numbers". I heard the dude and his justification for that statement was lame.
ReplyDeleteYeah, if building churches is only about accumulating buildings that is fine but I could have a bible study in my living room and people wouldn't have to give me a dime and folks would still accept Christ. The Bible says forsake not the assembling of ourselves; it doesn't say, forsake not the chance to accumulate real-estate by taking everyone's money regardless of whether or not they are white or black.
Chief
There was a conference when rwd was talking about rev. jones I think jones was just a pastor in portland or somewhere up there, I don't remember but rw was making the point that jones had a very nice high paying job and I guess jones was going to leave all that because the org. wanted him to be an overseer, maybe all this happened when dennis left but I clearly recalled rw say the word "nig..." from his lips saying that the filipinos used to call jones that when he was there for a time in the phillipines in the bible school over there, and that jones was aggravated but he just brushed it off.
ReplyDeleteI recall the whole thing when rw was teaching, talking, and he said and motioned to jones and said: what did they used to call you over in the philipines? Jones said "nig.." and rw said the word and went on about what the word used to mean in years gone back.
He was using this as an example of how jones was up to the task of being an overseer, leader, because he could take it and be a christian about it.
Hey, that just reminded me of RW's lame explanation of the word "nigger." He actually claimed that it was derived from the word "niggardly," which means stingy. Now that's just about a stupid as his assertion that "just" means "only" in the biblical phrase "just lot." About five seconds of research will enlighten anyone. This is from Wikipedia's entry on "niggardly:"
ReplyDelete"Word origins
"Niggardly" (noun: "niggard") is an adjective meaning "stingy" or "miserly", perhaps related to the Old Norse verb nigla = "to fuss about small matters". It is cognate with "niggling", meaning "petty" or "unimportant", as in "the niggling details".
"Nigger", which has become a racist insult in American culture, derives from the Spanish/Portuguese word negro, meaning "black", and the French nègre. Both negro and noir (and therefore also nègre and nigger) ultimately come from nigrum, the accusative case of the Latin adjective niger, meaning "black" or "dark.""
As usual, RW is full of crap. I think it's why his eyes are brown.
A little off-topic:
ReplyDeleteBut they found kelly merz guilty since he tried to conceal the murder and could face 25 years in prison.
The article doesn't go into detail but it says he sexually violated the corpse.
Kelly Merz update
ntcc graham wa
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHe was using this as an example of how jones was up to the task of being an overseer, leader, because he could take it and be a christian about it.
Chief said...
And that is exactly what RWD wanted people to think but you don't deliberately insult someone to verify their dedication to Christ. What RWD was really doing was degrading Jones so much that he would lose all self worth while getting accustomed to anything and everything that RWD could dish out. The practice is like torture in a way. If you torture someone long enough, eventually you will break their will to resist like you break a horse, and that is EXACTLY what RWD was doing with Jones and that is exactly why all the stupid unnecessary NTCC rules exist. It's RWDs attempt to completely break your will to act on you own and to think on your own, and in doing so, all your money and your time become his and now you've become not Christ's slave but his slave.
If anyone thinks I don't know what I'm talking about they are wrong. If RWD can rob you of your will, he can rob you of your money and it's just that simple. And that is why he's made a practice of calling Black folks, "niggers" because he wants to enslave them again just like he wants to enslave everyone else in his organization except just a few people. Kekel and Tanya are part of that few and maybe Kinson and Ashmore. He doesn't need to enslave them because those are the people who beat the slaves to keep them down.
Sound crazy? Well it's not. It's a big psychological game with RWD and I know exactly what I'm talking about because many NTCC pastors have been instructed by RWD to intentionally dog certain people out with the express intent to BREAK THEIR WILL. Well buddy, I ain't no horse and I ain't no slave on RWDs plantation being tossed little pieces of bread from the MASTER's table just to keep me happy.
Jones is a sellout to his own race. Blacks have fought for centuries for equality and freedom and Jones shouldn't stand idly by and allow some abusive manipulative jerk like RWD to refer to him as a "nigger". I'm not suggesting that Jones do physical harm to RWD but I am saying that Jones should tell RWD directly to his face to never refer to him like that again. Jesus gave the Pharisees a piece of his mind and Black people shouldn't quietly take that garbage from RWD either. Whatever, if you are find being an enslaved Uncle Tom, that's your problem not mine. It's one thing taking verbal abuse from a bully but I shouldn't have to get that garbage from my brother.
Chief
Anon said "There was a conference when rwd was talking about rev. jones I think jones was just a pastor in portland or somewhere up there, I don't remember but rw was making the point that jones had a very nice high paying job and I guess jones was going to leave all that because the org..."
ReplyDeleteRD Jones is an "Uncle Tom" for sure. He's got his face up RWD's backside so far it's pathetic. He preached in a conference one time and said "I shudder at the thought of saying something bad about pastor davis." Well, I don't because as far as I'm concerned he's not a pastor as defined in the word.
Jer. 23:1-4 King James Version declares;
1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
This is what the word says about R W Davis, M C Kekel, J H Olson, J R Ashmore, J L Johnson, P A Kinson, L D Jones, I would mention Tieman, but he couldn't preach his way out of a wet paper bag. So he couldn't possibly run anybody off.
Anon quoted Jer. 23:1-4.
ReplyDeleteRevelation! In all of the years the that I was with that bunch I don't think I ever heard R W Davis preach or even reference this passage of scripture. Hmmmm! I wonder why!?! Maybe a little to close to the ark, huh?
Chief, when I wrote that God is going to get rid of these tithe preaching preachers, the point that I am trying to make is that these so called men and women of God are not of God at all and just like the fearful, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death!
ReplyDeleteChief, I do not know when it will happen, but I believe the clergy of the catholic church which is the head of the christian church will lead the way on God's day of judgement! God is going to get rid of all of these tithe preaching preachers!
There are millions of people paying tithes in America because the are willingly ignorant of the word of God and have been deceived by a religious system that started hundreds of years ago!
When believers first came to America and begin to organize their churches they did not collect a tithe, but the communities supported the church!
Christ and his disciples did not collect a tithe, period!
The practice of tithing in the Christian era was started by the Catholics and their greed for wealth! The Catholics actually forced their congregants to pay a tithe, even until this day, mainly in Europe.
There are churches in America that do not preach tithing and do not force their members to pay a tithe, and are more then willing to disclose their financial records, unlike the leaders in the NTCC, who demands a tithe, and will preach that you are not a christian if you do not pay them a tithe, and you better not ask what they are doing with the money that you are forced to pay them!
The christian church in America has become more of a business then it is a House of Prayer and a House of God, and the tithe and the ignorant populace is the motivating factor that draws these wolves to the work of the ministry.
I would argue that any person that tells you that you must pay him ten percent of your income or you can not be saved cares nothing about your soul, but only about the money that he can take from you!From my experiences davis and kekel are at the top of this list!
It is true that davis does not want mixed couples working as pastors in the ntcc churches, this is an unwritten policy in the ntcc that has been around for many years. I was in a meeting in Graham a few years ago held by davis too the students and ministers about this subject matter.
ReplyDeletedavis made the statement, "I do not care who you marry, you can marry who or whatever you want, but when it comes to the work of the Lord, I do not believe mixed couples should pastor a church in the ntcc"! This qoute may not be word for word, but it is pretty close. davis went on to try and explain his reasonings, but what difference does that make?
I remember this event, because of the reason it was brought about; there was a young black man attending the bible school and during a fellowship event after a church service, as required, this brother had to ask davis permission to talk to this young girl that he liked, and she was white. davis without hesistation shut him down. I did not hear what was said, but I was present and did witness the great disappointment and confusion in this young man's countenance. The very next week davis held his meeting and made known his unwritten policy in regards to mixed marriages in the ntcc ministry.
To hear this announcement from davis was a huge disappointment for me, because I am in a mixed marriage and had been when I came to the ntcc, but had I known this policy I could have had second thoughts about attending their bible school, which is another farce created by davis!
I believe that dennis and his sidekick virgo used this unwriiten policy to undermine davis and the ntcc, because later, I was approached by virgo who tried to use this racist policy to convince me to leave the ntcc.
Well, virgo was unsuccessful in convincing me to leave the ntcc, but davis and many of his unwriiten policies, and deceptive practices did convince me and you better believe this unwritten policy played a major role in my decision to part ways with the ntcc, davis and the disgusting kekel!
Wow, all of this is some good information. So Old Double Standard Davis wouldn't allow this Black man to talk to a White woman. Boy I'd love to give Davis a good piece of my mind directly to his face.
ReplyDeleteThe NTCC is one seriously warped cult organization. Davis is just a racist, plain and simple.
Chief
Davis was quoted as saying...
ReplyDelete"I do not care who you marry, you can marry who or whatever you want, but when it comes to the work of the Lord, I do not believe mixed couples should pastor a church in the ntcc"!
Davis is an idiot. Look at what I just pulled from an article about interracial marriages:
"The data shows that 14.6 percent of all new marriages in the U.S. occurred between people of differing ethnicities/races."
Davis is a jerk. That dude is so far from being Christian it's not even funny. So that means that 14.6 percent of all newly married adults have no business even visiting a New Testament Christian Church. If they do they might as well throw out any aspirations of doing anything for God other than riding a church pew, paying RWD their tithe and listening to RWD the jerk tell them that they can't ever pastor a church!!! RWD is not for equality or freedom, he is about oppression and a bunch of self made rules that bind people to his ideologies. If everyone followed RWDs stupid thoughts on marriage, there wouldn't be one interracial couple in the entire nation and if there was, they'd certainly never pastor in his church unless of course it was a white man married to a filipino woman like Mike and Tanya.
RWD is a jerk, no more, no less. Man the NTCC is anything other than a "decent" church.
Chief
Wow, there is a very interesting testimony on the previous thread. It's the latest message. Boy the NTCC is such a great organization, do you think? How about the NTCC is the most sorry organization on planet earth? Yeah, that sounds far more accurate.
ReplyDeleteThey tell you to marry someone you don't even know, when the marriage doesn't even remotely work out, they say you can't ever have another woman for the rest of your life if it ain't her, they tell you to purchase a house, then they tell you to leave your house to foreclosure, then to add insult to injury, when you consider suicide Kekel the absolute creep tells you, "do it".
I've never met a more obnoxious group of creeps in my life than those I was sadly associated with in the NTCC. You don't believe me, go read the testimony... Aren't you NTCCers just so proud of your ungodly organization?
Chief
On the ntcc false doctrine that claims black-white interracial marriages "limit the ministry" (quoting davis and his false doctrine); that just is not biblical! Here's what the Bible says:
ReplyDeleteAnd Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. [Num 12:1]
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [Jer 13:23p]
Now [concerning] Moses the man of God, his sons were named of the tribe of Levi. [1Chr23:14]
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, [she was] leprous.
And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in [again]. [Num 12:9-11,13-14]
In the Bible we read that Moses "the man of God" married an Ethiopian woman. We also read that the Ethiopian cannot change his skin; to this day Ethiopians are people of color. So we know that this Ethiopian wife of Moses was a woman of color. The brother and sister of Moses, Aaron and Miriam, murmured against Moses because of this marriage. But God was angry with them and smote Miriam with leprosy. Even after Moses prayed for the Lord to heal Miriam, God stated she would remain outside the camp a leper for a week. God clearly endorsed Moses' marriage of an Ethiopian woman of color and Moses had a fantastic ministry.
So davis' false doctrine that such marriages would limit the ministry is both idiotic and, to quote davis using his favorite 'Christian curseword', 'asinine'!
Furthermore, this illustrates the dangerous practice ntcc has of twisting scripture and trying to claim only portions of scripture, selectively obeying or ignoring God's Word, to twist the bible to fit man's agenda.
ReplyDeleteEveryone knows that ntcc has tried to elevate davis to the stature of Moses by calling davis a "man of God". But the works of davis do not match the Bible definition of a "man of God".
Then, in the same breath, davis, this false apostle, false prophet, twists the word of God to indoctrinate people into his prejudice against black people!
davis is a sick narcissist; which was at one time a diagnosis of a mental illness just like psychopaths or psychotics of today's mental health specialist's vocabulary. Sick sick sick. Not "man of God".
davis also teaches, and we quote, "A white man who marries a black woman has low self-esteem." What davis is saying is that he thinks black women are so far beneath white men that only a white man with "low self-esteem" would marry a black woman. WOW and WOW! That is some serious prejudice against the people of color folks!
ReplyDeleteSo if davis were around in the days of Moses, rodger would have been one of those murmurers claiming that Moses had "low self-esteem" and that Moses, by marrying the Ethiopian had "limited the ministry".
Shaking our heads.
davis is an idiot who despises [literally sets at nought] people of color! But he will keep them around if they say "Yes Massah.", pay their tithes, and "white up" by straightening their hair and refusing to identify with any custom associated with people of color.
What's really sad is that the davis prejudice is denounced by God, yet people still blindly follow this shameful racist. The scriptures are right there. The proof is right there. And so is davis' blatant hatred.
Yeah, I've heard the same thing about RWD's take on white men who marry black women. Low self-esteem hey? I'd say it's just the other way around. I'd say a white man who marries a black woman has high self-esteem. He certainly can't be insecure like RWD who doesn't want women working because he's worried about them being tempted to cheat as a result of the job they hold. Yeah Davis has that one all backwards.
ReplyDeleteWith all this knowledge, there is no reason that even one black person, male or female should be willing to follow RWD. What do you black guys think? Does a white dude have low self-esteem if he marries a black woman? I'm just wondering if I need to go see a psychiatrist because I have a low self-esteem problem?
So what do you Black Women think about this? Do you see it like RWD sees it when he says that a white man has low self-esteem if he marries a black woman? Do you think that means the white man lacks confidence? Do you think that means he is selling himself short by not marrying a white woman? I'm just curious to see what black women think about this mentality? Is there anyone, (black or white) who agrees with RWD on this one?
Chief
Anonymous said..."But they found kelly merz guilty since he tried to conceal the murder and could face 25 years in prison.
ReplyDeleteThe article doesn't go into detail but it says he sexually violated the corpse."
I didn't see any comments on this, but I read the article and it made me sick to my stomache. It's one thing to kill someone out of anger during a fight and people get second degree murder. They may walk in 5 years or less, but when I read that the first person that came to mind was some kind of Ted Bundy or Gary Ridgeway (Green River) serial killer that commits necrophilia. Not only does does it take a wicked person to kill someone that's innocent and go hide the body, but to do whatever he did is perverse and twisted. The link I added also has a link on the Wikipedia entry to the Washington state law of what that might entail. If he was in Texas they'd be giving him an injection right about now.
For all it's worth, Merz was no longer with the NTCC but nevertheless it's more evidence which portrays a pattern showing the type of people the NTCC likes to recruit. Yeah, that dude was seriously deranged to put it lightly. I'm still interested in the previous subject. Does a white man who marries a black woman have low self-esteem? According to RWD his does? What do other readers think about this?
ReplyDeleteThe Merz tragedy is another example of how the ntcc drives people out of their mind. Merz married a black woman and was constantly beat down by the ntcc because of it. What did the ntcc ever do to help the guy? They had him move to Washington, but because his marital situation wasn't RWD approved, he could never be good enough. Was he responsible for his actions? Sure, to some degree, but when you take away someone's hope and dreams, they have nothing to live for.
ReplyDeleteI'm not making excuses for the guy but I will tell you that I know exactly what it feels like to have no hope. I never got to the point of totally letting myself go, but, I can see the evolution of this guy who was pushed beyond what he was able to endure. You have to ask the question, "Why are so many people that were involved with the ntcc, so messed up?" Is it a coincidence that people like Merz and Moreno came from the same small organization? The ntcc will tell you that this is what happens when you reject God.
Many people leave churches every day, but you don't see the same ratio of people with severe issues coming out of many other churches. When a person is used up and when they have given all that they can give, there is nothing left. I think people can be pushed beyond the point of caring. Pay attention to this, ntcc'rs because many of you can be in the same boat. If they can get you to stop caring and to stop feeling and to stop loving, they will do this to you and you will end up blaming yourself for everything. When you stop caring for others, it's one thing, but when you stop caring about yourself, you have nothing to live for.
So many people have been mentally and spiritually beat up and have lost all hope. Do you think RWD or Kekel cares about what happens to you if you leave? They are already looking for their next victims. The footsteps of your replacements can be heard beating a path to Graham in hopes of a bright future living for God. You have been used up and when they can no longer get anything out of you, they don't need you any more. The ntcc is sick and it's leadership does not exist to restore or help folks. It's plain as the nose on your face but you just can't see it.
Don and Ange said..."davis also teaches, and we quote, "A white man who marries a black woman has low self-esteem."
ReplyDeleteSo says the racist from Cotton Mill Hill...Sorry I can't do direct quotes because it's hard to tape together paper that's been through a shredder. I've been around his fellowship table a time or two, so I think I can speak with confidence. I've heard him say the same thing and go so far as to assume that a white man wants to act like he's from the ghetto by marrying a black woman. He also said that they like the taste of dark meat and also the smell of a black woman.
He also says that men marry certain women because no one else would have them, so RWD-bag takes alot of shots at a man's self-esteem to tear them down. I'm glad Chief stuck by his wife and didn't get mixed up anymore with that group so that his wife wasn't making her hair crispy or wearing some straight wig and shoulder padded two-piece suits to impress the shallowest women in the world.
So what about black men marrying white women? Is it because they want to sexually dominate them? Is it because they are trying to climb the social ladder? Is it because they can't afford a Cadillac so they'll try and ride a white woman? I don't know, but RWD-bag seems to know. Maybe in the 1960s he might be able to make an argument for being effective in the ministry, but in the past 3 decades the amount of "mixed marriages" (kind of derogatory to put it like that) have tripled.
Article 1
Interracial Marriage - Wikipedia
After the split he tried to relate a story of how he couldn't be a racist because he was nursed by a large black woman with large breasts (as he makes the hand gestures). I don't care if he was or not because in my opinion RWD-bag is a closet racist.
I will say this about the Merz conviction. He was admittedly guilty. What many people will never know is how his life was altered in the ntcc. What we all went through in the ntcc was not normal. We've survived and many have found healing years later and we count ourselves fortunate to have a sound mind. There are hundreds if not thousands of former ntcc'rs that have never found peace and have never been able to stop blaming themselves. Many have PTSD issues and they get by the best that they can, but none of us will ever forget what we've been through.
ReplyDeleteNormal people that have never been involved in a cult often don't understand what we've been through and when they read blogs like this they think we were crazy for ever getting involved in a situation where we allowed people to control every aspect of our lives. What we've been through is not normal and who knows what the future holds. They could push the wrong person too far and who knows what that can trigger? The ntcc has a history of violence and tragic events happening. For the record I am not hoping for anything bad like a Columbine shooting to take place in Graham, Just be careful who you kick to the curb and how hard you kick them. The wrong sort can go postal.
DnA
I remember a black sister at Ft. Bragg. She was an E-6 and at the time I was an E-5. I liked her a lot but did not pursue a relationship because I knew that it would not be endorsed by the ntcc. We were friends and at one time and for a very short time period we connected. When I say connected, I mean without touching we both felt very comfortable together. And in a different world there's no telling where that would have went.
ReplyDeleteIt's sad that so many people are manipulated by the racist views of a bigot like RWD. People come and go in the ntcc, but the ones that stay adapt to the same way of thinking. If you hang around a bunch of racists, you will become racist. You can say, "This is my brother and he is black, and I love him" or "This is my sister, and she is black, and I love her", but let them marry outside of their race and see what happens to them. Chief knows this first hand. You are not considered the same as "normal families". Your ministerial options are non-existent in the ntcc. They can say, "We are a church of all nations", and they can boast that they love people in spite of the color of their skin but Love is an action word.
You can't say you love someone and treat them with disdain. Love transcends race, religion and all barriers. RWD wouldn't know about love because his philosophy in life is limited by his shallow views of other human beings. He looks at black folks like they are a different species. Just like like Steakboy said, RWD-bag is a racist from Cotton Mill Hill.
Sounds like Davis has got a "stick to your own" attitude when it comes to the relationship between blacks and whites.
ReplyDeleteThe very next week davis held his meeting and made known his unwritten policy in regards to mixed marriages in the ntcc ministry.
ReplyDeletedavis said society does not approve of these marriages.
society does not approve of church tithing, one income families, holiness, anti-homosexual rhetoric, obeying the ten commandments.
do not pee on my leg and tell me it is raining!
anonanon
Chief said...
ReplyDelete"I know that Jones didn't speak up for himself when he received some poor treatment at the hand of the NTCC leadership and more specifically RWD because Jones told me."
Bro. Bellamy said...
Rev. Jones told me the same thing sitting in my living room in 2010. He said that Denis told Pastor Davis all these lies and he believed him and Pastor Davis removed him from pastoring in the Servicemen's Home in Georgia. Denis was "the man" at the time, and convinced Pastor Davis, because he was the top performer, getting more people to attend church at the time.
As far as the reason that black people put up with so much in the NTCC is that we are conditioned to do so. I don't know if there are any black preachers in NTCC that did not come from the military and start at a young age. Black people are degraded from their first pastor in NTCC. We are told that if we get offended because of racial slurs then we are filled with pride, we are prejudice ourselves, we are immature Christians, or we just need to get saved. I have heard my Pastors, to include Pastor Davis tell "nigger jokes." I had a white Pastor kick me in the rear and call me chocolate man; he did this quite often for over a year. I put up with it because I wanted to be humble and saved. This stuff is drilled into us until we are numb and embarrassed by our own race. When I worked on the building crew a white brother said something good about General Powell and Pastor Davis only had negative things to say about him; we were building Pastor Davis' Mansion. Anytime anyone black is mentioned in society, Pastor Davis only has something negative to say about them. They pray upon the young and tendered hearted who are trying to find their place in life.
BTW, I read the book, "Uncle Tom's Cabin" several years ago and it is really a good book. Most people don't realize it, but at the end of the book Tom's eyes were opened and he started helping other slaves escape to the North.
Bro. Bellamy
Bro. Bellamy said:
ReplyDelete"I have heard my Pastors, to include Pastor Davis tell "nigger jokes." I had a white Pastor kick me in the rear and call me chocolate man; he did this quite often for over a year. I put up with it because I wanted to be humble and saved."
DnA said:
This is disturbing and outright racism. I was hoping that a former black minister in the ntcc would give us some perspective on what it was like to be on the receiving end of this racism. I knew it was bad, but what you endured had nothing to do with Christianity. I doubt that anyone has ever apologized to you for this, and coming from me it probably means little, but I am sorry this happened to you and also I am also sorry to have been part of a group that treated you and others this way.
I am ashamed to have ever been a part of the ntcc. They influence the thinking of so many of it's members in a bad way. Looking down on people is a way of life in the ntcc. This issue alone and your testimony should be enough to wake people up but unfortunately people want to remain ignorant.
DnA
DnA said:
ReplyDelete"This is disturbing and outright racism. I was hoping that a former black minister in the ntcc would give us some perspective on what it was like to be on the receiving end of this racism."
Bro. Bellamy said...
Most of us are ashamed that we allowed these things to happen to us, because of what our families, parents and grandparents, went through during slavery and segregation to deliver us from that type of treatment. But if we don't speak out then it will continue to happen and many others will think that all is well in NTCC or that something is wrong with them, because they don't like how they are being treated. "If you don't like it then leave they will say," and with that statement they say you won't have a problem with it if you are saved.
I was also interested in a Hispanic sister that I invited to church and was told by my pastor that I would ruin my ministry. He was married to a Hispanic Sister and I couldn't understand the difference. She eventually married an Oriental brother and they went to Bible School; he later went with Denis. I don't regret it, because I have been married to a wonderful beautiful black lady for over 15 years.
Chief thanks for the compliment, (I guess it is a compliment) but I was a nobody in NTCC. Preachers like Denis, Jones, Barnes, Bailey, DeBlanc and an other that asked his name not to be mentioned are "black" preachers of reputation in the NTCC. Most of them have shared their negative experience in NTCC with me, but would never say anything public.
Bro. Bellamy
Bro Bellamy said...
ReplyDelete"I had a white Pastor kick me in the rear and call me chocolate man"
Chief said...
You see that is the kind of blatant crap that we're all talking about. Bro, I'd love to see that take place now and I could be wrong but I'd imagine that you would also. I don't have anything else to say other than try that crap with my little boy! You will have had better days for certain.
Bro Bellamy, I can't stand those guys. They hide behind their pulpit with that trash. I'm out of words with that testimony because frankly I'm pretty angry having read what you wrote.
Jeff
DnA said...
ReplyDelete"The ntcc is sick and it's leadership does not exist to restore or help folks."
Bro. Bellamy said...
This is such a true statement. When you take your problem to them and ask for help, they are no help at all. If they don't ignore you, their idea of helping someone is to yell from the pulpit "YOU NEED TO GET SAVED." They don't have any time for you until you decide to leave and then they only want to convince you that the devil is lieing to you.
Bro. Bellamy
I would have kicked him in the groin and called him "Golden Shower Boy"
ReplyDeleteBack at you, more of it, can only imagine what hell will be like for some. Can you imagine getting kicked in the backside for all of eternity? OUCH!!!
Bro Johnson
I would have kicked him in the groin and called him "Golden Shower Boy"
ReplyDeleteBack at you, more of it, can only imagine what hell will be like for some. Can you imagine getting kicked in the backside for all of eternity? OUCH!!!
Bro Johnson
Well, I get excited with the Return button! Double your KICK!!
ReplyDeleteThis testimony makes me so mad because my wonderful little boy is obviously half black which qualifies him to be considered black. I can't even imagine how I'd react if someone called him little "chocolate boy". Dude, I sincerely hope that doesn't happen in my presents because when my wonderful little fellow looks up at his daddy with his wonderful loving eyes, because someone just called him little chocolate boy, IT'S ON!!!!
ReplyDeleteKekel, RWD, or any of they rest of you abusive, sorry NTCC preachers: Try that with my little boy! And to you Black guys who are ministers in the NTCC: Don't let the NTCC treat you like Bro Bellamy described. You don't have to live with the same regrets that Bro Bellamy has. Stand up for yourselves and don't allow the NTCC to place you back in bondage.
Chief
Look here, being a Christian doesn't mean you have to put up with racial abuse while saying nothing! Especially from someone who is supposed to by your brother. The NTCC is the sorriest organization on the planet.
ReplyDeleteChief
I remember an instance when L.D. Jones and wife were in St. Louis. We were visiting and I don't remember if they had come from Germany. But RW was trying to saddle Jones with Forest Ave Church. Jones, was definitely not up to the task. You could see the disappointment on their faces. After they left RW made comments that Jones was too proud and he needed to come down off his high horse. Sis Davis, also made comments about his wife. I just sat there, wishing I could be somewhere else. My thoughts were why don't you put Mike and Tanya in there.
ReplyDeleteDeborah S.
Yeah, there you go. Run Jones and his wife through the mud, give him the flim-flam, put Denis in front of him as overseer and then after and only after Denis hits the road, promote Jones to overseer. Wow, thanks. Jones should have told RWD to keep his sorry position. I hope Jones wakes up one day and stops being RWDs pawn. You never know, it could happen. It's a shame.
ReplyDeleteYou ain't going to treat me like a dog and then offer me a position and expect me to jump at the opportunity. I had someone try that on me not too long ago and needless to say it didn't work. This dude tried to play me like a fiddle and believe me, his plan backfired on him and because I stuck to my guns, I wound up on top; kind of like Mordecai. Mordecai didn't fold and it worked to his benefit.
It's not non-Christian to stick up for your self and stick up for what is right. It is non-Christian when you don't stand for what is right and what is the truth. People need to stand up to RWD, Kekel and the rest of those crooks.
Chief
To you who reads this blog and reports to Kekel or Olson or davis, u are partaking in their sin...just so they can stand in front of everyone and say, "I don't read that junk" and make everyone feel guilty for reading it, and yet they get reports back...making a lie...they may not physically come on here, but u are enabling them
ReplyDeleteTo lie!!!!
Pleasing man!
I wish I didn't try to please them so much before. But my yea have been open. How do they treat u!?
Make a stand!
ReplyDeleteNothing like the good old SEC when you like to watch college sports and you live in the south.
ReplyDeleteChief
Hello everyone...
ReplyDeleteTithing, like race, is a very touchy subject. There are good arguments both pro,and con concerning tithing. I do believe in supporting the local church. People lose their jobs, things happen in life. What I don't understand are people who can't control their spending and then have NOTHING or very little to give. I personally do believe in Tithing but I'm not going to condemn anyone to Hell for it. NTCC takes tithing to an all time low. For many, many years after NTCC I had a real hard time with organized religion, and I'll never trust anyone ever again like I did at NTCC. Those days are gone forever.
Speaking of racism in ntcc reminded me of this comment on an old thread:
ReplyDeleteBitG said...
I was with rdub and a large group (~20 people) in a Mexico, Missouri restaurant during conference one year. One African American couple was with the group; I believe he was recently appointed as a board member.
The prejudice white folks who ran the restaurant did not want to seat or serve this AA couple who had come with the group. KKK is thick in them thar Missouri sticks...
Well, the AA couple deferred and tried to placate the prejudice folks, telling rdub, 'That's fine sir.'...
That didn't surprise me. As a Christian I understand loving your enemy who does not know the love of Christ.
But what I could not and still do not understand was rdub's decision to stay and order a meal.
If that had been my call as leader of a group, serve one and serve all or you ain't gettin' none of my money at all.
Twenty folks at $8 bucks a plate (being conservative too considering board member$ were there and we know how verna likes to put on the ritz)...that's a pretty strong message to folks who would be just swattin' flies if you hadn't gone in their hole-in-the-wall greasy spoon.
And then I'd probably discuss the situation from the pulpit so others would know what kind of people ran that place. I'd rather eat ramen noodles with a brother than fund someone who it trying to hurt my brother.
I still don't get it except to say rdub must be just as prejudice as those he paid to feed him pork pie...
BitG
JANUARY 12, 2010 5:22 PM
I think the African American couple was Rev and Sis Jones. Still can't believe old Cracker Barrel rdub would stay and order a meal; but it shouldn't surprise me!
Man the thing I don't understand is if Jones got lied about by Denis, gets put out in Portland to have to work a full time job and pastor, then gets promoted when Denis and Curry leave - Is this story used so much about how his being faithful to Davis and NTCC during all this a way to get Blacks to take the abuse? Also why is it that God didn't tell Davis that Denis was lying about Jones and also not reveal all of the extortion, lies, and embezzling that happened prior to and after the split?
ReplyDeleteAnother thing that I heard alot in NTCC was whenever you would talk about a Black leader that there would be either Davis or someone else tear them down. For example, they say that MLK was a communist, womanizer, had orgies and was being investigated by the FBI. Why tear down someone that is trying to do good?
Mark G wrote...
ReplyDeleteTithing, like race, is a very touchy subject.
Chief said...
You are my buddy Mark, and yes it is.
Mark G wrote...
What I don't understand are people who can't control their spending and then have NOTHING or very little to give.
Chief said...
Glass half full, glass half empty. Look where Paul said church was held in Corinth:
1 Cr 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Chief said...
So we know a few things here. Priscilla and Aquila had church in their house. Paul lived with them and not in some big mansion that he was able to purchase as the result of tithe payers. Paul worked as a tent maker and so did Priscilla and Aquila which means they had jobs. Well that sure destroys RWDs theory of what a pastor should be. We also know that for the 1 1/2 years that Paul was in Corinth, Paul accepted NO money from the church folks in Corinth because Paul said so. So what is my point?
If I had church in my house, I wouldn't expect a dime from anyone except that they help me buy toilet paper. I would expect people to bring food if we were going to eat afterwords and it was be like a potluck which I would also contribute to, plain and simple. Thats one approach. I see no evidence anywhere in the New Testament that there was a huge push to purchase buildings that would ultimately soak all the congregants of their money? I want this building, I want that building, I want this land and that land and who winds up footing the bill? All the people who get guilt tripped into giving money. It's not my responsibility to fund some building project that will ultimately result in some tithe demanding minister in getting stinking rotten rich. That is the typical church model we see this day and age.
Giving to the poor is great. Helping out the needy is great. Helping the fatherless, widow, someone who has come into some real hard times and such. But just "giving money" so some greedy minister can get rich like the Sheriff of Nottingham at everyone else's expense? Or giving money because some business minded minister who says "his church" is the answer to all the problems of mankind goes out and purchases some excessively large church building? And now if I'm part of that church, he expects his expansion project to be funded in part by me? Sounds like the NTCC and the Catholic church.
I'm not saying this is what you were suggesting Mark but it's a slippery slope that whole money thing. The Catholic church and the NTCC are good examples of what happens when people are taught that it is their responsibility to give money.
I've written this before. About 9 years ago, I read an article talking about the Catholic church being the biggest land owner in the United States of America!!! So even if the Catholic church got people saved, (for example) I'm supposed to be one of the people who funds that land expansion project?
I'm not an advocate of giving some pastor my hard earned money, just because he has aspirations of conquering the world while creating a network of "church real-estate".
That is certainly not the example that Paul gave concerning the church in Corinth. People need to go back to having church in their houses and that would take care of all this prosperity preaching mess where pastors are living high on the hog at the expense of everyone else.
Nothing personal, that is just the way I see it.
Chief
I am not exactly sure if the person that mentioned Denis and Rev. Curry together was saying that Rev. Curry split with Denis. Rev. Curry has asked me and others not to mentioned him on the blogs; not that he disagrees with what is being said, but he would just rather stay out of the limelight, but I would like to set the record straight. Rev. Curry did not leave with Denis and The NTCC leadership knew that he did not. Even though Rev. Kekel tried to embarrass and lie about him after the split during the conference in Arizona in February, 2004.
ReplyDeleteI have asked Rev. Kekel on several occassons why he has not personally apologized to Rev. Curry and publicly told everyone that he was wrong, but he has not given me an explanation as to why he lied and accused him falsely and refuse to apologize.
Bro. Bellamy
i was there when virgo stood up and told (i think either davis / kekel) the person preaching that they were lying and walked out.
ReplyDeletewe all sat there stunned.
If that were to happen again, I'd stand up with him and walk out as I am sure others would too
Rev. Kekel was preaching.
ReplyDeleteGregory
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"Also why is it that God didn't tell Davis that Denis was lying about Jones and also not reveal all of the extortion, lies, and embezzling that happened prior to and after the split?"
DnA said:
The reason God didn't tell Davis about Denis is the same reason that much of what Davis says that God told him is an outlandish wolf cookie of a lie. Davis is a false prophet. He says that God made him a Millionaire but it was suckers like you and me that made him a Millionaire. God didn't need a bunch of impressionable GI's to give until they had nothing to make this dude rich. Davis is no different than Oral Roberts who seen the 40 foot Jesus.
Let's just face it. Davis is not saved. A saved person is a Christian. How many times have we heard that a Christian is Christ-like. I've read the Gospels many times and have yet to see Jesus bleeding people dry for money to reach the lost. Reaching the lost had nothing to do with money. It had nothing to do with a bunch of people throwing everything they had into a church building or pews or steeples or any of this mess. Also I've never seen Jesus preach prosperity. The only prosperity he spoke of was in eternity. Davis is anything but Christ-like. Jesus didn't go around joking about the color of anyone's skin.
I hate to break it to you folks, but the ntcc is nothing but a big hoax. The Davis doctrine of sacrifice, rules and policies is all a big scam that he devised to get rich, and guess what? It worked. Did God tell Davis anything? Did God tell Davis to split up marriages and encourage folks to get divorces and remarry within the ntcc? Not according to the words of Jesus. Do you think God really spoke to Davis about anything? According to the bible I read, I fountain can not bring forth both sweet and bitter water. They call us bitter, but who is really bitter? They don't come any more bitter than sour-pus Davis.
With perfect love, nothing shall offend you, so lets just tell N-jokes and put people down for who they are. Have you ever seen a babies facial expression after tasting a lemon? Try saying something true about RWD in his presence and see how he responds. There is no perfect love when Davis gets his feathers ruffled.
I've seen Davis get bent out of shape when someone made fun of him before. Next door to the Servicemen's Home in Fayetteville, NC, lived a retired oneness preacher. He said something to RWD. Davis spent the next 30 minutes stomping around in anger. To this day I don't know what was said but Davis wasn't perfect in love that day because he was offended big time. God hasn't told Ole Davis much of anything, or if God has told RWD anything, Davis hasn't listened.
DnA
I have to agree with Chief on the whole tithe issue. Giving freely is something that I see mentioned in the New Testament frequently, but paying tithe is not mentioned as any kind of mandate. Supporting the ministry is also mentioned but not in the form of tithe. Nowhere do we find anyone in the New Testament taking up collections for fancy church edifices or expensive garnishments for such.
ReplyDeleteI studied it out for myself, because I don't wish to cheat God out of anything. It's nowhere to be found. Saying this, I have no problem with people paying tithe. If it makes a person feel good paying tithe, or living "holiness", by all means do what you feel is right. My whole thing is that we were all taken for a ride. I have to look at things with a certain degree of skepticism. I've already made one group of money grubbing preachers rich. Before I do the same for someone else, God is going to have to show me in his word or tell me to do so. So far I have yet to see or hear any argument or scripture that supports New Testament tithing.
If you pay your tithe willingly and you don't impose it on others than I suppose if it works for you, it's a good thing. I have found Grace to be something that can't be purchased and when someone put's a price tag on it, it's wrong. I also see no precedent in the bible for preachers getting rich off of tithe, other than the Pharisees. A servant of all is not someone who drives around in a new Cadillac purchased every year by his congregation, while they struggle.
DnA
Bro. Bellamy said:
ReplyDelete"I have asked Rev. Kekel on several occassons why he has not personally apologized to Rev. Curry and publicly told everyone that he was wrong, but he has not given me an explanation as to why he lied and accused him falsely and refuse to apologize."
DnA said:
Kekel has accused many people of many things falsely and has refused to apologize. It is not in the nature of a narcissist to admit they are wrong or apologize. It's a mental disorder. A narcissist feels that if they apologize they are admitting that they are wrong. Admitting to being wrong is a weakness. Absolute power over people is obtained by complete control which depends on the illusion of perfection. When you mess up it's because you have not obtained the same perfection "in Christ" that Kekel and Davis have. When they mess up, excuses are made and no questions dared be asked. Just keep paying your tithe and stay subservient and you will be allowed to coexist with them. If your convictions or dedication to God interferes with their plans, however, you will be railroaded and find yourself on the outside looking in. Because of the humble non-questioning attitude that you have been taught to exhibit, you will blame yourself and refuse to see things as they really are.
DnA
"Rev. Curry has asked me and others not to mentioned him on the blogs..."
ReplyDeleteHe hasn't asked me. In fact, he hasn't said anything to me since the last service I was in, when Davis used him to give me both barrels between the eyes. A few years later he left NTCC too, and when I was visiting Marc Perez once, Marc called him on the phone. When he found out I was there, he got off the line in a hurry.
If Mike Kekel isn't apologizing to him, then maybe he's reaping what he sows. I haven't forgotten that load of crap he dumped on me from the pulpit, and there was no gospel in it. Word is that he's still in the church business. Hopefully he's found a new message of grace, but if so, it hasn't been extended my way.
Nothing personal taken Jeff, But I think that the point is being missed here. I would not for a minute entertain the idea of giving some self serving greedy so called fat cat "minister" anything. But not all ministers are like this. I've seen ministers that I have been associated with throughout the years do things for people for little or no pay and are generous with their time when money could NOT have been the motivating factor. You can do what you want to with your money, But let's not stereotype all ministers and say that the local church does not deserve our support. NTCC was, and still is, as far as I'm concerned a mutation of Christianity. They have completely bastardized the true meaning of giving. I stand by what I said in reference to people who have to have a new car, have to have a home they can't afford, they just had to take that vacation that they really couldn't afford,continue to buy things that they really can't afford, and then throw God the scraps. All of a sudden it becomes "I can't afford to Tithe",or, I can't even afford to give. I'm not talking about people who lose their jobs, or illness in the family, and the like. I think you know where I'm going with this.
ReplyDelete"Davis is no different than Oral Roberts who seen the 40 foot Jesus."
ReplyDelete"Let's just face it. Davis is not saved. A saved person is a Christian."
That is a good point, DNA. In fact, I'll take it a step farther and say that I've wondered if he even believes in God. I can't remember absolutely saying this to MCK with Tanya in tow when I had my meeting with him a few years ago, But it seems like I did. I do remember telling him that RWD "doesn't have anything from God that anyone else doesn't have, or can't get," and all he could say was that he disagreed with me.
It all goes back to the little man behind the curtains with all the fire, and smoke.
Vic said...
ReplyDelete"If Mike Kekel isn't apologizing to him, then maybe he's reaping what he sows."
Bro. Bellamy says...
That is possible. If I remember when I talk to him, I will ask him about it and see if wants to work things out with you. Who Knows?
But the point that I was trying to make was that Rev. Kekel was accusing someone of something that he in fact knew was not true. Just giving more witness to what others have said.
Vic, I was wondering if you knew me? I can't place who you are. I started with NTCC in 1991 and left in 2011. If you have a Facebook page look me up.
Bro. Bellamy
Mark G said...
ReplyDeleteI stand by what I said in reference to people who have to have a new car, have to have a home they can't afford, they just had to take that vacation that they really couldn't afford, continue to buy things that they really can't afford, and then throw God the scraps. All of a sudden it becomes "I can't afford to Tithe",or, I can't even afford to give. I'm not talking about people who lose their jobs, or illness in the family, and the like. I think you know where I'm going with this.
Chief said...
I hear you Mark but the person you described doesn't seem to handle money good whether or not they are part of a church. For example, I drive an old car which has a TON of miles and has been paid for for years, I've taken a nice vacation to the Bahamas, St Thomas and St Martin and I can afford it and I still have MUCH money left over and I continue to save. I can afford my house with no problem but here is my point. Just because I have plenty of money left over and I don't fall into the category of the person you described, doesn't mean that a Pastor or church is "automatically" entitled to my money.
I know there are churches that do good for mankind but the common theme during modern day Christianity is money, money, money. I hear the same thing in every church I attend almost totally without exception. They are always trying to take up offerings for this and for that and for this and for that and more often than not it has nothing to do with taking care of the needy.
"I'm taking up a special offering for our radio ministry, I'm taking up a special offering for a church sign, I'm taking up a special offering for a bigger building or a playground or a pond or an extension to the fellowship hall or for this or that or this or that and once again almost without exception, it never ends."
Dude, I can see a cause for taking care of fatherless or motherless children, or a widow who can't work and there are a variety other such examples. Having said that, the days of me coughing up my hard earned money to pay some pastor so that he doesn't have to work but yet he is living a far better lifestyle than me and my children are over. And not only that, think about this take.
How do you know that the pastor you are giving your money is any closer to God or anymore Godly than you are? This is all I'm saying. I'm as entitled to the money that I earn as anyone who claims to be a quote "man of God". The way I see it is it's none of my business how someone spends the money they earn from working on a job. If they want to give or they don't want to give or they want to blow every dime they earn before they even get paid is totally, without exception between them and God. If someone wants financial counseling from me or money management advise, I don't have a problem giving it but other than that, I could care less what they do with their money. And you are my buddy Mark no matter what!!! We all have our own views, opinions and takes on certain subjects.
You are my buddy Mark so if you get mad at me you need to get saved!!!! LOL. I'll go get Tanya Kekel after you Mark and then when she finishes with you I'm coming to drop an elbow on you like "The Rock" from WWF. I'm going to give you the "people's elbow or the ROCK BOTTOM". Can you smell what THE ROCK is cooking?
Chief
Bro Bellamy said...
ReplyDeleteVic, I was wondering if you knew me? I can't place who you are. I started with NTCC in 1991 and left in 2011. If you have a Facebook page look me up.
Chief said...
Hey Edward: Vic is so old, he was probably in the NTCC before you were born. Ha, ha. If you never met Jesus you probably never met Vic. ROFLOL. Vic is an old Dude. Ha, ha. Vic don't even know what facebook is. He is probably still using one of them stone-age type writers that RWD liked. The only facebook Vic knows was someone's face carved on a rock by a caveman. LOL. Hey Vic, don't beat me up too bad. I know this is a battle I can't win.
Cha Chief
Hahahahahahahaha...
ReplyDeletestill laughing
Bro. B
Well, haha. I do have a FB page, in fact, but I'm pretty passive about it. Don't forget, I was an early adopter of the "sinnernet," and RW called me out for having a modem in the early '90s, before the internet really took off. I used it for logging on to local bulletin boards; there were lots of free ones back then.
ReplyDeleteEdward, I'm open to anything Curry might want to say to me. It can't be any worse than the last time. I really do hope he's not ministering the same way these days. I'm not holding grudges, but haven't forgotten that shabby treatment either, and I was kind of surprised when he seemed to avoid me on the phone, when he had an opportunity to make it right.
I must have come across you at some time. We returned to Graham from Fairbanks in the fall of '89, and went to Philadelphia in '90; we stayed there until '92 and then spent the next few years in Graham, where I taught in the BS until we left in '95. We stayed in Tacoma until '97, and then moved back to Fairbanks. Were you a student in Graham?
Bellamy said.."I am not exactly sure if the person that mentioned Denis and Rev. Curry together was saying that Rev. Curry split with Denis..."
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely right, he did not split with Denis and chose to go to a specific city within Florida in order to be with and minister to family and friends. Kekel lied about him and tried to associate him with Denis because he had visited the HOP Bible school near Ft Stewart / Hinesville and had preached for Denis on occasion. That doesn't mean anything, Pop Gaylord preached for other churches and denominations while a licensed minister with NTCC. Kekel should be ashamed of himself for the way he treated this man because he was an associate pastor in Graham, then a World Missions director and was one of their better preachers.
No question that Rev Curry was/is genuine. I knew him personally and never thought he "lost out with God" and dared someone to say it to me! A lot of good preachers who preached well, were personable and really cared about people left that Org.
ReplyDeleteMatter of fact, the ones I respected I would still call them Rev when I talked about them. The other people in the Org would make sure to take the Rev away from their name (blatantly). I would casually put Rev in front because they were still a Rev/Bro to me. Ex. Rev Curry, Rev Bradeen (sp) Bro Bellamy. These are men I saw at every Conference I attended, heard preach and respected.
What do I look like saying "Bellamy" when I called him Bro before. He still is brother to me (in Christ). He didn't do anything to me or to defame God. I am so over that Org. Sorry for the rant.
Vic, I went to Bible School from 1998-2001, so I don't think I ever met you. I was in the Army at Fort Hood from 1991-1993 and Germany from 1993-1998.
ReplyDeleteBro. Bellamy
Bro Bellamy, you spent 7 years in the military? Wow. Have you ever considered trying to get back in so you could heap up more time for retirement? It could be a good option? Reserves maybe? Retirements are hard to come by! I have a brother in law who got off active duty and came back in to the reserves and then went AGR which of course was active again and he recently retired with pay. 13 more years and you'll only be 52 assuming I'm right about your age. If you don't see retirement in your future, that may be a great option for you. I work on Fort Benning and I see middle aged reservists working on Fort Benning all the time. I can tell by their unit patches. Man some of these dudes have to be in the mid to late 50s easy based on what they look like. Dudes who are pretty old Staff Sergeants. In fact I saw one guy today and took mental note of how old the dude looked. He looked a whole lot older than me and I'm almost 50.
ReplyDeleteRetirements are hard to find, that's all I know and at least for now the government is still paying them out. It's hard to beat the military Bro with all the benefits and such. Dental is next to nothing if you are in the military. Medical is no cost, glasses are free. I could go on and on. Unless you are some kind of rocket scientist, it's hard to beat the military. The NTCC SUCKS because it steals that from so many people.
Chief
yeah, chief, i did 8 years but it's too late for me to go in for retirement.
ReplyDeletebut God is blessing and there will be a way I can still have a decent retirement.
Anyone who pays anybody ten percent of their income is a fool! Anyone who demands you pay them ten percent of your income or even asks for ten percent of your income in the name of God is a fraud and is not spiritual enough to lead you to God! Wake up and realize that in this dispensation of God has not authorized anyone to collect a tithe from anybody. All of these men who ask for a tithe are all the same, wolves making merchandise of God's people and if you support them you are just as guilty of defrauding your brothers and sisters!
ReplyDeleteThese tithe collecting preachers have sold God and the gospel out for every dime that they get squeeze out some poor soul who earns just over minimum wage and living just above the poverty level. I know for a fact the davis and kekel are sellouts, because I know that they allowed Kelly Merz to remain a lay pastor in their great holy church, after knowing that the man was living in lust and sin, just because he continued to pay them tithes.
ReplyDeleteI know for a fact that around the year 2000, Kelly Merz had written at least one love letter to tanya kekel seeking some type of extramarital affair, I know that davis and mike knew all about it, but they allowed the man to not only continue to attend the church, but allowed him to remain a lay pastor.
Eventually Kelly gave back his fellowship card and begin to come to church sporadically before he quit entirely, but it was months and maybe even a year after the man hit on tanya, before he quit being a lay pastor.
To me this is proof that these men cares nothing about God, the souls in their church, or anyone else. You can live like the devil, but as long as you pay them your tithes you are a christian and are on your way to heaven. On the other hand, you can be a God fearing man, disagree with them and refuse to pay them your tithe and you are fighting against the church and on your way to hell!
Sounds to me like th gospel of davis, and nothing like the Gospel of Christ!
By the way Chief, I do not believe that when a mixed couple gets married that they only marry because they are of different races. I have been in a mixed marriage for over 20 years and the only reason that I married my wife is because I wanted to live the rest of my life with her!
ReplyDeletedavis is suppose to be some great teacher of psychology, but I would argue that he is a great teacher of deception, and has done nothing to help anyone develop pyschologically!
I really begin to pay attention to davis after he faked his alligator tears and boo hooed to the congregation after denis and his posse pulled the wool over davis eyes. I begin to see how this man worked his lies and his deception to control and influence people.
One of the last services I attended davis stood up during the preaching and begin to prophesy as if God was speaking through him. I looked at this man and felt like God is not speaking through this man and if davis is such a powerful man of God where are the manifestations of God's power in his life.
Chief, I believe that for a man and a woman to join hands in matrimony either one can have a low self esteem, but both are convinced that they have what it takes to make a life together which is a challenge that some one of low self esteem would not be ready to accept.
Racism of any form is evil and it is a sin to judge a person by their skin color. A true follower of Christ will love all people of all races!
Anonymous, I want to make sure I'm hearing you right. Are you saying that if a person believes that it is biblical to pay a percentage of their money in support of the local church that they are a fool? I certainly wouldn't say that a person who does not believe in tithing is a fool. I thought the whole reason for giving in the first place was because a person loves God, not because a Pastor somewhere said to do it. If love is not the motivating factor then you are probably better off keeping your money and not giving anything at all EVER!
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that money seems to bring out the very worst in people?
Love Letters to Tanya...
ReplyDeleteYa jigglin baby, go head baby
Ya jigglin baby, go head baby...
When you first walked in, I ain't know what to think
'Cause you grabbed the microphone like your booty don't stink...
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteyeah, chief, i did 8 years but it's too late for me to go in for retirement.
but God is blessing and there will be a way I can still have a decent retirement.
Bro. Bellamy said...
I don't know who this is, but it wasn't from me.
I was in 7 years. But I couldn't be away from my wife for that long. She flew to visit her mom a few years ago and only stayed 3 days, which included the day she left and the day she came back, and I was miserable without her. Besides that I have 2 foster sons that need me. Yes, I am 39 years old. I am saving for retirement, but I don't really look forward to it; I like working.
Bro. Bellamy
Thanks Bro Bellamy. I understand. I certainly wish the best for you and for the most part, I don't mind working either, (as long as I have a good job) which currently I have.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't know who the other person was either. Probably just someone who basically fell in the same category as you. You never know on these blogs. I don't mind. When you require people to log in to post a message they stop posting so it's a necessary trade-off. Anonymity often seems necessary as a posting option.
Chief
Mark G. asked Anonymous,
ReplyDelete"Are you saying that if a person believes that it is biblical to pay a percentage of their money in support of the local church that they are a fool?"
DnA said:
Money is a touchy subject. I think many people are adamantly against giving 10% because they gave it and more willingly to the ntcc and watched as their money was squandered.
I personally can't see myself giving tithe to anyone again. At the same time, I feel that people have the right to do what they will with their own money as long as their family is taken care of. I know that people do a lot of things out of personal conviction, or they do what they feel is right before God.
I read the following passage in the Bible today from Luke 4 which were quoted by Christ from Isaiah 61:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
This is what Jesus came to do.
Preach the Gospel to the poor? Are you kidding me? Heal the broken hearted and preach deliverance to the captives? Restore sight to the blind and set at liberty them that are bruised? The ntcc is a long way away from this, and so are many other churches.
If I was going to give ten percent of my money to someone, their goals would have to be similar. If the preacher is all about prosperity and pumping a bunch of money into a building and it's furnishings, I believe I would be better off holding on to that 10%.
I think that the church world is a long way from accomplishing what it's supposed to be in this day and age. The words of Jesus which should be the words we live by, never mentioned giving money to a church. Paul however did speak of giving cheerfully, not out of necessity. I remember paying tithe to the ntcc like it was a bill. It was money we owed to God, and if we didn't give it to Him, we were stealing it from Him, and our salvation would be repossessed. It's strange that of all the words that Jesus spoke, very few were in reference to giving money. He did say to the Pharisees "these ought ye to have done and not leave the other undone", referring to the more weightier matters of the LAW (OT) which were judgement, mercy and faith. Other than that, no collections were taken up, no buildings purchased, no Cadillacs or pinky rings, no Rolex watches, no gun collections and so on.
DnA
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI know for a fact that around the year 2000, Kelly Merz had written at least one love letter to tanya kekel seeking some type of extramarital affair, I know that davis and mike knew all about it, but they allowed the man to not only continue to attend the church, but allowed him to remain a lay pastor.
Chief said...
Wow, that is an interesting revelation. I'd be interested in knowing more about this one. Whoever you are, you must have been someone who was close to the Davis family to have knowledge of this information. Just when you thought you'd heard it all, there is always something new that comes out about the NTCC leadership. What a bunch of fakes.
Chief
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"I know for a fact that around the year 2000, Kelly Merz had written at least one love letter to tanya kekel seeking some type of extramarital affair, I know that davis and mike knew all about it, but they allowed the man to not only continue to attend the church, but allowed him to remain a lay pastor."
DnA said:
Is this something that you have first hand knowledge of, or is this something you heard from someone else?
Deu 26:11 And thou shalt rejoice in every good thing which the LORD thy God hath given unto thee, and unto thine house, thou, and the Levite, and the stranger that is among you.
ReplyDelete26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
26:13 Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:
Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Chief said...
Here is the bottom line: Since when has the NTCC ever taken up tithes for the stranger, fatherless, or widow? Easy answer; NEVER! Where in the New Testament is there even one single solitary example of how tithes should be given? Easy answer; NOWHERE! All these church leaders during the dispensation of grace want to make tithing mandatory but few if any want to follow the Old Testament example of how tithe is supposed to be distributed.
And in addition to that, I included the scripture from Numbers to illustrate that paying tithe was an ordinance that applied to the "CHILDREN OF ISRAEL". It didn't apply to gentiles nor was it designed to. The scripture didn't say, "When you take tithes from everyone in the whole world". It said, "When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance".
IT WAS FOR THE LEVITES INHERITANCE and we are not the Children of Israel and Christian Pastors to include RWD are not Levites and the New Testament doesn't say anything about paying tithes otherwise. If someone feels it's their duty then fine, but still no one can prove from New Testament scripture that tithing remains a mandate and these greedy tithe sucking pastors with very few exceptions are distributing tithes to the fatherless, widow and stranger. That is the bottom line. You can give your tithe to the fatherless, widow, and stranger and Levite which means all four gets (one quarter). If your pastor considers himself equal to a Levite, then he is only entitled to 2 1/2 percent and the widow gets 2 1/2 percent and the fatherless gets 2 1/2 percent and the stranger get 2 1/2 percent. Equally divided, that equals 10 percent and that is if you consider yourself one of the Children of Israel. If someone really tries to follow the Old Testament example of tithing, there are more subrules, and exceptions and years you take off and on and on and on. Greg Shunk broke it down as well as anyone and I simply have no desire to invest the time. Anyone and I mean Anyone who has an open mind can clearly see that tithing is hardly as simple is just dropping off 10% of your GROSS income to some dispensation of grace modern day Christian Pastor. If you really want to follow tithing according to the Bible, you better start digging deep into the Old Testament because the New Testament simply doesn't say diddly squat about it! Now I'm just being real. If you are not going to use the Bible as your all inclusive guide, then you might just as well throw it in the trash.
Chief
"Money is a touchy subject. I think many people are adamantly against giving 10% because they gave it and more willingly to the NTCC and watched as their money was squandered."
ReplyDeleteNow that is a reason that I can live with, and understand having gone through that very thing. But a fool? That's a bit harsh.
Even in the OT, the tithing doctrine is convoluted and difficult to comprehend. For one thing, tithes were only paid on agricultural increases. The only mention of money I'm aware of is in Deuteronomy, where the Jews were instructed to convert their increase to money if it was too bulky to transport to the temple:
ReplyDelete14:22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
27And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
Notice that the tither also has his part in consuming the tithe, along with the Levites. Every third year, the "year of tithing," the tithes were to be retained at home for the Levites, fatherless, widows, and strangers:
14:28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
The point here is that none of this resembles in any way the practices of NTCC (or any other modern church, for that matter). If they are going to insist on requiring adherence to an OT law, they need to follow the OT in its application. Can you imagine? "Pastor, meet me at the church and help me feast out on the tithe from my garden. Bring some of the widows and fatherless; we'll have some great fellowship. I sold some cattle for cash and got some good wine and a bottle of Jack Daniels--you'll like it way better than that old Nyquil."
Modern tithing doctrine is so far removed from the bible that it's basically an invention of man based on an obsolete practice that's not and has never been binding on Christians. It's usually just another scheme for moneygrubbing preachers to get rich, and when that isn't the case, it's still not being administered according to the pattern set down by Moses.
Read what the bible actually says, and don't fall for what these scammers try tell you it really means.
Blogger Don and Ange said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said:
"I know for a fact that around the year 2000, Kelly Merz had written at least one love letter to Tanya Kekel seeking some type of extramarital affair, I know that Davis and mike knew all about it, but they allowed the man to not only continue to attend the church, but allowed him to remain a lay pastor."
I don't understand how ANYONE could look at Tanya Kekel and get.....Well, I better shut up. I suppose a few woman have said that about me in years gone by....
I want to make this clear about tithing and than I'm not going to bring it up again. I've heard good reasons for both, but nothing absolutely compelling one way or another. There is some good circumstantial evidence both ways. I can not, nor will I emphatically state that it is mandated in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteAdultery=Sin
Fornication=Sin
Murder=Sin
Long hair on a Woman=NOT!!!
wearing shorts=NOT!!!
Tithe=NOT!!!
I do believe in supporting the local Church. I stand by that. Many of these "Televangelist" prey on the infirmities and desperation of others.
I hate to say this, But I hope that there is a special place in HELL for people like that!!!!!!!
I'm with you Mark. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with helping people out and if a church is in the business of doing that, I'm all for it and I understand that takes money. The NTCC certainly isn't one of those churches and we all agree on that.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, what's interesting throughout this whole exchange of statements is that we all are on the same team, (so to speak) and we all expressed views which in many cases were different. Try that one in the NTCC and watch what happens.
ReplyDelete"If you don't pay your tithe, you are going to hell and you need to get saved"!
That's all your getting out of those greedy crooks.
Chief
I never knew what tithing was about when growing up. It was when I became a christian that I was taught that doctrine.
ReplyDeleteJust thinking about it,when growing up my family didn't tithe and the wrath of God wasn't upon them, which brings me to
there's been many ministers and families that have done well, but it is not because of what the ntcc has done for them, but because they've used their intellect and abilities to have things, and then you had your regular preacher in ntcc, that for some reason can't get ahead.
In one of your older threads, chief, the terry's were talked about. Now, they have been around for many years and they are driving in an old vehicle, and apparently living in low income apartments.
I'm not familliar with them, but I was around people that were friends with them and they would say that terry was not good with money, or something to that effect. Maybe it's his own fault that he is in that position.
Maybe he can't manage his money well. Who knows!
There's a missing link there, don't you think?
Why do some have and others don't?
Is not because of what you give to the org.(God)because then all the ministers would be blessed just like the davises and the kekels. For they all give and tithe according to their income, yet there are alot of ministers that are like the terrys.
Look at the gaylords,they didn't live in a big mansion, they stayed in that decent home and that was it for them.
And that is what I'm talking about, it can't be because some love God more than others, or some tithe or give in offerings more than others.
It is what you want it to be.
No church, or org. is gonna stop you to become what you want in this life.
Maybe with these blogs and the exposure you guys are bringing, will make people think and be better to themselves and their families, even if they stay in the ntcc.
Anonymous said..."I'm not familliar with them, but I was around people that were friends with them and they would say that terry was not good with money, or something to that effect. Maybe it's his own fault that he is in that position."
ReplyDeleteDefinitely alot of different kinds of comments and the love letter to Tanya Kekel one almost made me lose my lunch. Generally, in NTCC these are the types of comments that are spread about ministers who are financially struggling, who can't afford to go to conferences or have to go back to working full time. Most of the time they are dropped around a fellowship table by RWD-bag with them present to embarrass them in front of their peers. It filters out to the rest of their ministers from that point.
It has also been commented on this blog frequently about the system of poverty that is created within NTCC with the constant moving, gaps in job history, restraints from hours and days worked, no additional schooling when secular colleges were preached against, and being setup to fail with a church that is not performing as you were told.
You get to a place that is nearly or is behind on rent, utilities and some people may leave during your transitition. You need a job, a place to stay, rent/deposit, groceries and various things when you get to town. None or little of this is prearranged because you are left until that last moment before you are given permission from Olson to be able to call the other minister. Sure you did some research online or called people about places or jobs, but that minister is your eyes and ears on the ground and your "brother".
Look around at those that are in their 40's-60's in NTCC and the common theme is that they do not have insurance (especially if in a Servicemen's Home or full time work), they have little schooling, large gap in job history, have no retirement and will most likely have to depend upon Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid. Those that do have something either had the skills to get a job that would allow them to invest additional money into a retirement account or finance real estate investments.
The students and ministers may now use their GI Bill and go to secular schools, attend online colleges and do things as they sit in Graham or have time wherever they may live. They are rewriting history as we speak to make it seem that there is now more opportunity than ever to prosper as an NTCC minister, while the older ones are relegated to the ash heeps as RWD-bag and Kekel wag their heads at them because "they couldn't put it together".
As for the Gaylord's, Pop was a retired Air Force Master Sergeant and received a pension from the military. I can only guess about Social Security or other income, but no doubt he was frugal and made sure that Mom was taken care of after his death. He never was flamboyant about money, took the cheapest and the oldest of NTCC's RV's and seemed to genuinely care about people as they traveled long distances at their age. They always put the military men and women first and even preferred they were served before them. He came under the leadership of RWD-bag and was the one who came up with the concept of the Servicemen's Homes. He was a patriot and they had more of a servant's heart than any of the rest of the bunch in NTCC.
Chief said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
Now, they have been around for many years and they are driving in an old vehicle, and apparently living in low income apartments. I'm not familiar with them, but I was around people that were friends with them and they would say that terry was not good with money, or something to that effect. Maybe it's his own fault that he is in that position. Maybe he can't manage his money well. Who knows! There's a missing link there, don't you think? Why do some have and others don't? Is not because of what you give to the org.(God)because then all the ministers would be blessed just like the davises and the kekels. For they all give and tithe according to their income, yet there are a lot of ministers that are like the terrys. Look at the gaylords, they didn't live in a big mansion, they stayed in that decent home and that was it for them. And that is what I'm talking about, it can't be because some love God more than others, or some tithe or give in offerings more than others. It is what you want it to be. No church, or org. is gonna stop you to become what you want in this life. Maybe with these blogs and the exposure you guys are bringing, will make people think and be better to themselves and their families, even if they stay in the ntcc.
Chief said...
That was the longest portion of a message that I've quoted under the comment section as far as I can remember. The reason is because you said so much that caught my attention.
You said: "and apparently living in low income apartments"
Chief: Just to give firm clarification. They most "definitely" are living in a low income, low budge, run down apartment complex. I know this for a fact.
You said: "I was around people that were friends with them and they would say that terry was not good with money, or something to that effect. Maybe it's his own fault that he is in that position."
Chief: There could be "some" truth to that but clearly the NTCC system is not set up to perpetuate the prosperity of the common pastor. It's set up in such a fashion which creates the exact opposite outcome, "POVERTY". The NTCC pastor has been very effectively manipulated into adhering to that system.
You said: There's a missing link there, don't you think?
Chief: Nothing missing about the NTCC system the way I see it. Run around pioneering churches, never keeping good jobs, always relocating, sending considerable percentages of church income to Graham, putting money in escrow accounts that the pastor has no control of, always being forced to either sell or give away personal property, constantly contributing to endless NTCC causes etc! Not a system that lends to the prosperity of the common pastor regardless of how Terry handles his money.
You said: No church, or org. is gonna stop you to become what you want in this life.
Chief: You are right, no church "should" stop you but such has not been the case in the NTCC. The NTCC has been extremely effective at preventing many people from obtaining even the most basic levels of financial prosperity.
Having said all that, I see the point to many of your statements and I just wanted to give clarification to others. At this point with all the information that exists, more and more people like Terry are more at personal fault for whatever situation they live in. I'm not being held back anymore, I'll guarantee you that! I'm making gigantic progress forward. I'm making up for lost time to be certain. It would certainly appear that God has opened doors for me. If not I've been awfully fortunate if not outright lucky. Either way, I'm thankful for all the prosperity that I've thoroughly enjoyed since I left the NTCC. God has been good to me.
Chief
And in addition to that, I have the greatest most loving Son that a man could possibly ask or wish for. My little boy is a TRUE blessing from God. Call him a little chocolate boy and your done you NTCC creeps.
ReplyDeleteCheif, you know that it's just the devil rewarding you for leaving "God's last move on Earth."
ReplyDeleteYou are right chief, you have because you are a go getter, and some people are not.
ReplyDeleteLast I heard there are people in graham that have alot of money.
One of them is some minister named dobins or something like that and he apparently has an insulation company and has a very nice beautiful home because I overheard tk telling somebody if they had been to his house and how grand and beautiful it is!
Maybe it is the tithe that he pays that makes them to leave him alone, who knows!
what about mertz wife? She apparently is a real estate tycoon there in graham, and still has ties to the org.
There's alot of info that comes across that you just can't take it at face value.
I'm not trying to say that is not true, but there's always two sides to every story.
It suits the powers in Graham to have some people prosper, even when they're aware that it's resulted from a flouting of the phony rules they impose. This enables them to have an example or two of the prosperity allegedly available to all, and the extra tithe is a bonus too. The dirty secret is that they really don't care how people live, as long as they pay tithe, keep their mouths shut and appear to be good org robots. Those of us who were serious about it were just suckers, and we got played just like the majority there now.
ReplyDeleteAny minister who starts his own business in NTCC does so by disregarding RW's teachings. He's always said that the sorriest preachers he's ever met are those who are in business for themselves. Eli Gesang knows it, and so does Dobyns. But they figured out that as long as they line his pockets with tithe money, RW is all bark and no bite.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot of info that comes across that you just can't take it at face value. I'm not trying to say that is not true, but there's always two sides to every story.
Chief said...
What is the main thing that both of those people have in common? They are both living in Graham and not moving and neither one of them are pastors or pioneering ministers. Guess what else they both have in common? They both make money off current NTCCers. I know Ms Merz does and I'd bet that Dobins employs NTCCers as well. My idea of making money isn't living in Graham somewhere near the church and capitalizing on a bunch of people who only live there because RWD brought them up there in the first place or brought them back or they never left Graham from the get go. All those folks are RWDs and the NTCCs cash cow. That is not to say that Ms Merz and Mr Dobins couldn't make it else where because I'm sure they could but I'll bet they wouldn't make it as well or at all if they were instructed to go full time and leave to another city and state to pioneer a church.
And it's my understanding that Ms Merz is no longer in the NTCC and in addition to that, the NTCC leadership would once again being practicing double standards if they happily allowed her to work if she ever got married which she was when she started. Once again, it's not just an open and closed case that it's everyone else's fault when they can't seem to ever get ahead just because Merz and Dobins were able. Tell Dobins to quit his job and go pioneer a church and see how well he makes out? In addition, Dobins could make out just as well and no doubt even far better if he wasn't even part of the NTCC.
This world is full of millionaires and even billionaires who've never been a part of the NTCC or payed tithes.
Chief
Vic said...
ReplyDeleteChief, you know that it's just the devil rewarding you for leaving "God's last move on Earth."
Chief said...
Vic, you are so right. I guess to make it all better, I need to give all the money I've saved to the NTCC. NOT!!! If it was the devil rewarding me, that's no different then RWD giving Kekel the 39 acres. Oops.
Chief
I know it is true about Kelly and tanya, because I knew Kelly for many years and Kelly trusted and confided in me over the years.
ReplyDeleteKelly believed that he was enticed by tanya and that she invited his advances. I do not know if that is true, but that is what he told me!
davis and kekel put some type of probation on kelly, but allowed him to remain a lay pastor.
I believe that Kelly and Mike Fontenot are two very similar cases of davis knowing that these men were sex predators, but allowed them to remain in the church and prey on innocent and unsuspecting church members.
I also know for a fact that years after Kelly made advances on tanya that he had a sexual relationship with a woman who was attending ntcc, the lady was a fairly new at coming out and she was a close contact of Charlie Perez and his wife, who both know that kelly had sexual intercourse with this certain woman, who I can not remember her name.
How can anyone call themselves a pastor and allow sex predators to mix and prey upon unsuspecting and loving people?
Why not warn people and tell people about these types of people in their midst? Why not ban these types of people from the church?
Could that be one reason why you had to get permission to fellowship?
Mark G., what I am saying if anyone believes in tithing under the New Testament and pays ten percent of their income to a church is a fool!
ReplyDeletefool: a person lacking in judgement or prudence. one who is victimized and made to appear foolish: dupe.
God tells us in Hosea 4:6, My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.
I am not saying that it is wrong to financially support whatever cause that your heart desires, but the bible teaches us to be wise.
Take heed to the words of Christ;
Mathew 10:16, Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Any so called preacher who tells you to pay a tithe is a wolf!
How many times does the bible warn us of wolves in the ministry?
I'm with you anon.
ReplyDeleteYou don't play with those kinds of things, specially when you are dealing with predators.
Why would somebody let their wife be disrespected like that, to the point of sending her a love letter!
Just shocked!
Anonymous asked,
ReplyDelete"Could that be one reason why you had to get permission to fellowship?"
NO. NO. NO. ntcc WANTS you to think that they are protecting you. But that is HOGWASH.
ntcc is protecting the corporate image. They don't want you getting together and talking freely. If you had freedom of speech and information, you would discuss with others how odd it is that davis allowed Merz to be a lay pastor after this incident with tanya.
You would talk about how criminal charges should be brought against davis and kekel for knowingly allowing a convicted child rapist, Michael Fontenot to return to the ntcc fold without warning the people about him having raped his own daughter.
If ntcc wanted to protect YOU as they claim, then they would expose the predators in an appropriate fashion to allow people to protect themselves and their families while also showing Christian love toward both the predators and their victims.
But we all know that is not how the ntcc operates.
They are only protecting their own backsides and bottom lines (money, money, money).
The only reason for permissions is to protect ntcc, not you.
Do your own thinking. That is why God gave you a brain.
Denis knew what the permission to fellowship gag was all about.
ReplyDeleteIt's really about stopping information and discussions. It's about controlling you so you don't discuss the glaring hypocrisy and double standards that you see practiced by the ntcc leadership. davis and kekel know that knowledge is power. That's why they don't want you sharing information or affirming your doubts about their true motives. If you can't talk, they can keep pumping pulpit lies that tell you your thoughts come from the devil. But in fact, you are just seeing the truth about their lives of luxury paid for by the sacrifices you and your friends make. Or any number of other oddities, like davis and kekel railing on people from the pulpit, their wives gossiping, their constant reviling of all other churches, their mocking, and yelling, and mistreating people. All those things that should make you as a Christian gasp in horror and say, "That is so wrong."... Well, they've already got you trained to think that any such truth comes from the devil. If you could talk to someone and learn they thought the same thing, WOW, that's affirmation. Strength in numbers.
So they don't want you talking to others. Or listening to other ministers on the radio. Or visiting other churches. Because then your eyes would be open to the truth about how evil these men and women who run ntcc really are!
Denis knew what the permission (or lack thereof) was all about. He did what davis feared the most. He talked to people, and pointed out things that were wrong with ntcc, and convinced a bunch of folks to follow him instead of davis.
Of course, Denis is just a chip off the old davis block. In other words, he too is a crook who wanted to prey upon the faithful. Denis and davis are both wolves preying on the flock of God.
Anonymous said,
ReplyDelete"davis and kekel put some type of probation on kelly, but allowed him to remain a lay pastor.
I believe that Kelly and Mike Fontenot are two very similar cases of davis knowing that these men were sex predators, but allowed them to remain in the church and prey on innocent and unsuspecting church members."
Then Anonymous asked,
"How can anyone call themselves a pastor and allow sex predators to mix and prey upon unsuspecting and loving people?"
Don and Ange say,
Well it's simple. davis has a dynasty that needs dollars.
So davis will do anything, ANYTHING, to protect his bottom line (pun intended).
davis operates thus:
He allows kelly to stay, in order to buy davis the time he needs to make sure that Cherlyn and all the rental property tithe money will stay in the ntcc. If someone challenges davis about letting Kelly Merz stay, he can lie and say he was trying to show mercy. But we know that is a big fat lie; because davis himself often boasts about how he handles people: davis says, "Let's give him a long rope to hang himself with." That, dear ones, is not mercy. davis wants Kelly Merz out of the picture; because he never wanted Kelly Merz in the picture to begin with.
Everyone who knows the Merz, knows that Cherlyn is the dominant personality. davis never liked black white marriages. So he's actually glad he has this perfect reason to get rid of Kelly Merz, now that davis knows it is Cherlyn who is the business savy member in that marriage.
davis will use anything to use anyone to get what davis wants done. It is davis who is the predator.
Of course, Cherlyn is no fool. She too woke up to the ntcc scam. She no longer goes to church there. I don't know if she sold her soul to keep the dollars flowing. I hope not; but with the ntcc influence, you never know. Cherlyn was never one to be shy. It would be fine if she shared her thoughts here. Like I said, she's no fool. You can trick sincere people for a time. But ultimately the mark of a believer is that they are Spirit led. Not profit driven.
ReplyDeleteMoney and power are the the gods of choice in the ntcc addict's life. But you can't serve God AND mammon.
Who cares where it goes. God's word tells us to pay our tithes. Period. And if you are truly seeking God with a pure heart, he will show you what he means and why it's important. He did for me. My NTCC pastor never told me to start paying tithes... I wanted to pay my tithes because I wanted to obey Christ...because He told me too. Personally, I don't care where my "tithes" go because I did it out of a pure heart and obedience. God sees that and that's all I need.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said..."One of them is some minister named dobins or something like that and he apparently has an insulation company and has a very nice beautiful home because I overheard tk telling somebody if they had been to his house and how grand and beautiful it is!"
ReplyDeleteThere is actually a pair of brothers with the last name Dobyns (as Vic pointed out), but guess who is their older sister? Nichelle Tieman. So in a nutshell in the business side, the one brother (Allan Dobyns) was a lay pastor and owned Knights Insulation. They underbid and perform jobs with Bible school students and ministers that were recommended to them. With former military men that claimed to be Christian preachers they expected a certain work ethic and that they could sell their products. These students and ministers also felt obligated to do any job assigned to them because this is a lay pastor and Christian brother. Gesang used them to do the flipping properties and also to insulate the buildings around NTCC.
They also expected them to travel a couple hours in their insulation trucks for jobs as well.
They had their business issues when the residential real estate market fell in that area and did some things to stay afloat like commercial insulation and merging with Insulation Northwest. As the market has stabilized, they diversified and reinvested in the business, he's done well for himself.
No, I don't know if he used the gross income from the business to tithe to NTCC but no doubt whatever salary he is given allows him to tithe and give substantial offerings.
Dobyns House - Nice One Tanya raved about worth as much as her's
Dobyns Rental House
Anonymous said..."Who cares where it goes. God's word tells us to pay our tithes. Period. And if you are truly seeking God with a pure heart, he will show you what he means and why it's important. He did for me. My NTCC pastor never told me to start paying tithes..."
ReplyDeleteThat is absolutely the dumbest and most nieve statements I've ever heard. You might as well take your money out of your wallet and light it on fire? Right, so I'm not supposed to question where money is being spent when there are all of these real estate investments being made and the leadership living luxuriously.
The subject of tithing has been talked about many times and we don't condemn those that continue the practice in order to support a local church. The thing is, would you give your money to someone that is going to use it for a cause that would damage and hurt people? Would you give your money away so another person could waste it on themselves and not to help people? You wouldn't support the local drug dealer but you don't care where you money goes to in NTCC?
Your pastor never said "All Christians paid tithes and give in the offerings"? He never tried to create an environment where you wanted to be a part of what they did to dress, be a part of what they're doing and supporting the "ministry" there? If you don't care where your tithes go to, you don't really care about yourself and your family's future and are worse than an infidel (1 Tim 5:8).
Back in Samuel's day, the people sure cared where their tithes went when they figured out that Eli's wicked sons were extorting them. They didn't buy into RW's "it's none of your business if I spend all the tithe on chewing gum" mentality.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said:
ReplyDelete"And if you are truly seeking God with a pure heart, he will show you what he means and why it's important"
DnA said:
Oh, I see. It has to be revealed to you. You know what it's really all about? GI's have disposable income and the ntcc wants you to dispose of it into their offering baskets. Your logic and mentality is what makes people like Davis and Kekel rich. This is why many of us have a problem with tithe. We have seen this non-biblical principle of New Testament tithing abused to the point of people not providing for their families and the only ones that profit are the FAT and RICH hypocrites in Graham.
By all means, if you haven't learned by now that these money grubbers are taking you for a ride, don't let us stop you from emptying your wallet into their slush fund. It goes back to what this whole thread is about. People can not point to one scripture that mandates or even sensibly explains New Testament tithing, but they are hell bent on paying it to people that are knowingly getting rich, without helping those that are poor and in need of help. So for the purpose of getting along with everyone, we are giving you people the benefit of the doubt and hypothetically going along with it even though it is a total stretch of any reasonable explanation that can be contrived. Then someone comes along and in trying to justify tithe they say something really stupid, like: "Who cares where it Goes"?
Who cares where your hard earned money goes? You should. If you don't, nobody else will care for you. If your tithe money went towards murder, would you care? If your tithe money financed human trafficking would you care?
One more time, I will say that if a person pays tithe out of their own conviction and they know that their money is not going to make some lazy preacher rich, but rather to help folks in need, I don't have a problem with it. In the ntcc, this is not where your tithe dollar goes. Just take a trip up to Graham or google-earth the communal cult compound and you will see where your tithe dollars are going.
DnA
Click link above to see the Dobyn's estate.
ReplyDeleteIs this not Nichelle Tieman's Brother?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Who cares where it goes. God's word tells us to pay our tithes. Period."
I don't believe that God "Blindly" wants you to pay Tithe. If it is something that you truly believe that you need to be doing,then consider this..
There are many Churches that have a high degree of financial transparency,AND that preach the Gospel. Seek out one of those Churches. Trust me, If you ask to many questions at NTCC about money you are going to be asked to leave. But before you are asked to leave(Or forced out)they will become indignant as He77. How DARE you question the "Man of God", How "Dare" you not believe what they are saying. How "Dare" this, and how "Dare" that. In my meeting with MCK he didn't try to pull that with me, but he was spinning to the point that I thought he was going to get up out of that chair and start break dancing. It's easier to just mechanically do something than it is to do a little investigation, and ask a few questions. You don't have to be a Magnum PI, not with NTCC, Because it won't take long for their true colors to come out, or any other Churches true colors to come out, or a PERSONS true colors to come out. All you have to do is just add money, and PRESTO!! Sit back and enjoy the show!!
Mark G. said:
ReplyDelete"I don't believe that God "Blindly" wants you to pay Tithe. If it is something that you truly believe that you need to be doing,then consider this..
There are many Churches that have a high degree of financial transparency,AND that preach the Gospel.
DnA said:
Amen, Mark. That is a very responsible approach.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWho cares where it goes. God's word tells us to pay our tithes. Period.
Chief asked...
Where in the New Testament does it say that? If it's that plain and simple where does God tell us that in his scripture. Now, being that I already know that you can't find anything about paying tithes in the New Testament, what does it say to do in the Old Testament? Who do you pay your tithe to? When is the last time you gave tithes to the fatherless, stranger or widow? Being that you make it so plain and simple, I'm just asking some legitimate questions. If you can prove your assertions with the Bible, I'm fine with it. According to the Bible, who do you pay your tithes to and why were they chosen to receive tithes?
Chief
Don and Ange said...
ReplyDeleteAmen, Mark. That is a very responsible approach.
Chief said...
Gets my Amen for all it's worth.
Chief
Interesting link from the Coldwell Banker website for Dobyn's house. If you go to the Pierce County link for their new house and go to the "Sales" tab it shows you they bought it for that much from a foreclosure or it was owned by the bank and purchased directly. They've been in there for a few years, but that doesn't seem to have been a great price to get a house that went through a foreclosure auction and was given back to the bank. Another thing that is interesting is that it has it's own boat ramp and how much it increased in value during a time when it should have really dropped. If you go to the "Taxes/Values" and the "Buildings" tab on the Pierce County website you can see how much the improvements were worth.
ReplyDeleteDobyns House - Redfin
Also the house was built in 07
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of RW's ways, I was talking to an NTCC escapee the other day, and he said that he was talking to a minister in his town, whose father was from St. Louis. He related that his father had donated his book collection to a startup bible college there, whose founder was implicated in some adulterous affairs shortly thereafter. He couldn't remember the name, so my friend said "might it have been Davis?" and the guy immediately replied "RW Davis."
ReplyDeleteWe were just the last to find out; that information was hidden from us. All we heard was how the Carondelet church "didn't want holiness." The truth appears that they didn't want a philandering "pastor."
My Brother works for Alan, the guy who owns the insulation company. Man, they treat him like an illegal mexican!!! He gets paid crap and barely feeds his family! Oh, hold on, that is because "he is not good with his money" as he told me! in actuality it is because he is treated like crap and then cutting a 10% bonus to the religious mafia!!! what a scam!! BTW, he works with a ton of illegals, He is one of the only guys who can speak english, you would think they would treat him better for that reason alone!!
ReplyDeletePisses me off!!
I think he is catching on though!
TB
TB said...
ReplyDeleteHe gets paid crap and barely feeds his family!
Chief said...
That's no surprise. And Allen lives in a mansion. Typical NTCC. Like I've been saying for years. The NTCC is like the story of Robin Hood and I'm not exaggerating. But you know what TB? Let him live in poverty long enough and it's possible he'll wake up. Poverty tends to eventually have an effect on most people. TB, I'm sorry this is happening to your brother but he's got to see it for himself. Until that happens, he's going to keep getting taken to the cleaners.
Thank the good Lord, I'm out of that crooked organization. I read the conference notification on MCK's blog this evening. Nothing but a bunch of routine empty NTCC rhetoric. "God is moving". "We are looking forward to seeing how God moves". Blah, blah, blah.
Where is God moving to? Is God going to be like the Kekels and move out of one big house an into another? Tell me, how does God move? People get all emotional and at that point the NTCC leadership takes up another huge offering for "world missions"? Is that how God moves? I'm just wondering. Tanya Kekel sings a heart wrenching song and at that point God moves? Ashmore sings a song and at that point God moves? RWD blasts someone and at that point God moves? Olson says, "We're winning" and then God moves?
Nothing but a bunch of empty rhetoric. There ain't but two things moving at an NTCC conference. The money from your wallet into an NTCC offering plate and some minister who is getting ready to leave Graham and blow his whole life savings to fund another one of RWDs buildings. God is going to move and were going to have fellowship, whoopty doo. How great. You get to stand in line and wait to talk to Mike Kekel. "Hey pastor Kekel, praise God, it's so good to see you. Your message was such a blessing". "Guess what pastor Kekel, we got a new sucker, I mean brother faithfully attending our church, praise God".
Then Kekel askes, "Does he pay tithes and give in the offering brother"? Then the brother says, "Well, he's actually not regularly paying tithes yet".
Then Kekel the con artist says, "Well then he is not faithful yet".
I'm getting ready to puke. Blat!!!!!!!!
Chief
Oh I left out a word, "Hey pastor Kekel, praise God, it's so good to see you (SIR)". I GOT YOUR "SIR" right here, "HAAAAH"!
ReplyDeleteHere is what you need to say to Kekel, "Hey Kekel, you mean I traveled all this way just to look at your face again and listen to your big mouth"? At that point you need to reach down and grab your crotch with both hands as a complete show of disrespect and say, "HAAAAH" cause buddy that's as much respect as Kekel and R Dubber are going to get from me! "HAAAAH"!
Chief
LOL
ReplyDeleteChief, you are so on the mark about the ntcc conferences! My wife and I were talking about our ntcc conference experiences and what a waste of money and time attending these services that lift up and glorify davis the cult leader.
ReplyDeletePeople will spend thousands of dollars and travel days to be at these services for a worked up square dance! I attended at least 8-10 of these conferences and never witnessed a miracle from God, but you better believe davis and kekel will be the center of attention and try to dictate every aspect of your time there. When to show up for service, who to fellowship with, when to pray, and when to eat, and so on!
No doubt God will be moving, moving away from these power hungry, money grubbing, false preachers!
There is nothing special happening at their so called conferences, but the same ole song and dance that was going on when I first attended over 15 years ago!
It got so boring and tired that they could no longer bully, shame, and force people to attend their mandatory conferences! It is a joke!
They have spent so much money on this piece of property and its upkeep that they must maintain these God forsaken conferences to justify and help pay for the cost of the property. It is a joke!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI attended at least 8-10 of these conferences and never witnessed a miracle from God
There is nothing special happening at their so called conferences, but the same ole song and dance that was going on when I first attended over 15 years ago!
Chief said...
EXACTLY!!! Same old song and dance. A bunch of people getting all worked up to do no more than jump up and down. Then we had to listen to old grumpy double standard Davis telling everyone what they are doing WRONG. I wasted time going to those conferences. I should have been taking that time to visit my parents who happen to be people that actually care about me and my family.
I remember one conference when RWD went on and on and on about how great Kekel is. What a joke. He was obviously doing that because no doubt people had been talking about or questioning Kekel which rightfully they should have. Whatever, it's Sunday, I'm out. Good comment Anonymous.
Chief
Glorified square dance, yup. And the real reason for putting on these hoedowns is simple: that one service that they devote to taking up pledges. They're not satisfied that people went into debt and maybe even lost their jobs to attend this sorry confab. No, they want to really grind the faces of the poor, and put them in hock to the org a year in advance! Fatcat Rear Wheel, working up a bunch of emotion about the lost Filipinos or some other wretched situation that only NTCC, with copious amounts of money from our wallets, could hope to solve (though despite all the money given, missionaries are starved out and neglected). Then the public reading of the pledges, so we could all know what everyone else was doing, and be motivated accordingly. It was one of the sickest, slickest ripoff campaigns I've ever witnessed--Tom Sawyer's picket fence scheme cubed:
ReplyDelete"Let's get the suckers-er, I mean 'brothers,'-to drive across country to an isolated compound, where we can mess with their heads uninterrupted for a whole week. By the time we're done with them, they'll even give money to us a year in advance!"
And we did.
Exactly Vic, exactly! They get you all worked up emotionally right before the pledge. Boy those guys are slick. I was at a conference where RWD took about 20 minutes to read off all the pledges that were given. And guess who name he started out with; himself. Good grief it is now so easy to see right through these NTCC crooks but such was not always the case Vic. I have nothing but disdain for those NTCC scroundels.
ReplyDeleteRWD is NOTHING but a con artist. He is not a man of God. He is a con artist and it's just that simple.
Chief
TB said..."My Brother works for Alan, the guy who owns the insulation company. Man, they treat him like an illegal mexican!!! He gets paid crap and barely feeds his family!"
ReplyDeleteWhat's really sad is that Allan learned these work practices from Eli Gesang for how he works the "building crew" / house flippers and how Davis would treat people on the work site. He does pay worker's compensation, but it would be illegal if he didn't. So because you have a Christian working for you that gives you a right to treat him a certain way because you're the one that gave him the job? Should you expect them to get in underfloors where there is knee high water just to insulate a house? Most of his guys chose to do underfloors because it pays more.
Almost all of the people that work for him are piece rate, unless they do sales calls and get a commission. Very few get a base salary + pay, so someone would have to be pretty good at insulating to support their family. Sure, you can make $1000 a week gross, but lets say you take out taxes, medical if they provide it and then pay your tithe - that might be $600-700 a week that you net. You won't make that every week and there may even be times you have to split a job among several guys to get it done and only make $300-400 a week. Hopefully you don't get laid off either. Don't forget if you get hurt, sick or have to go to conference and you may only gross at most $50,000.
With 25% taxes that would be $37500 then take out benefits and you may only net $30000 a year ($25,000 after tithe). TB, can your brother feed a family of 5 on $30,000 a year with the cost of living in Washington? Will he allow himself to be limited in his job choices as he gets older and cannot work labor jobs? Rhetorical questions, but people need to wake-up and see for themselves that they are really hurting their families and their future.
Hey Chief,
ReplyDeleteI noticed that on our blog we unwanted links started popping up in the body of comments. I commented using words like cars and Cadillac and other words and it seems like blogger automatically changes them into links. Have you noticed this at all? I'm thinking it might be one of the new changes that blogger has made to insert free advertising into our blog. We are looking for a way to turn it off. Let us know it you are experiencing anything like this.
DnA
It is amazing how that they'll try to use the conditions of the Filipinos to pull at your heart strings so that you will want to give, but those people will never see the United States or ever have any prosperity unless they marry an NTCC minister and follow them back. Those that graduate from their Bible school there will go to different outstations within the Philippines but are actually looked down upon by those within NTCC in the United States. They can use examples of starving Filippinas to lift up as a picture of faithfulness but won't lift one finger to help them. They can get them to conform to the NTCC standards of dress, but never show them true love and acceptance. They look at their country as dirty, the people as uneducated and ignorant, but will never give them true knowledge of God and the Bible. Rev Barnes died in vain and Verna painting a picture to hang in the library in vain. NTCC does not love the Filipino.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSure, you can make $1000 a week gross, but lets say you take out taxes
Chief said...
For all it's worth, $1000 a week gross ain't bad. Income is always figured as gross anyway. If you kept that money away from the NTCC it could go a good ways. That is almost $50,000 a year and that is not a bad income this day and age. Now of course that is relative but for someone who doesn't have a degree and only put maybe 4-8 years in the military, that is in all actuality a pretty good income.
Here is the problem with that. Glass half full, glass half empty. If these guys who got out of the military at 4-8 years service had stayed in, they'd be making a whole lot more than $1000 a week so it's not like the NTCC is doing those guys any favors and that I'll admit.
Chief
merz was a lay pastor and now he is a murderer. Whoa, the information I read here is just incredible. I have been reading this blog since last June, I can't believe the stuff I had no idea existed in the NTCC, and these people claim to be CHRISTIANS. That is not Christian like to do what Davis and Kekel are said to be doing. People in the NTCC wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThere's another story about Merz in The Mountain News. His brother gave an interview.
ReplyDeleteChief said:
ReplyDelete"For all it's worth, $1000 a week gross ain't bad. Income is always figured as gross anyway. If you kept that money away from the NTCC it could go a good ways. That is almost $50,000 a year and that is not a bad income this day and age."
DnA said:
Not sure if the thousand a week in the insulation business is consistent, or what kind of benefits are included. I have to agree with Chief that it is decent money. You also have to consider how many hours a week have to be worked to earn that money. You wont get rich off of 50k but you could afford a decent place to stay depending on where you live.
The problem is that the ntcc is like a big vacuum. They will suck you dry until you have nothing. Think about it. When you are in the ntcc, you live for conferences. The ntcc keeps you broke. They know how much money you make. If you are making 1000 per week, let's break it down.
Net Pay.................$1,000.00
Taxes, fed, state, Social Security, unemployment, medicare................$ 170.00
Tithe.....................$ 100.00
Offerings.................$ 50.00
Soul winning Gas........$ 50.00
---------------------------------------
Total left after Uncle Sam and Davis get theirs..........$ 630.00
630X52/12 = $2730 per month
The estimates above are conservative and if a person in the ntcc keeps a tight budget they should be able to live off of this. The problem is that there is such a push for special offerings and projects in the ntcc. Guilt trips are used to get people to come up off of that money.
Common expenses that we haven't covered are:
Rent........................$600.00Groceries..................$250.00
Auto Insurance............$ 80.00
---------------------------------------
Subtract from $2730=$1,800.00
These are all conservative figures but can vary depending on if a person is married or single. Usually folks in this bracket take health insurance which costs on average $120.00 per week. Multiply times 52 and divide by 12= $520 per month. Now you have $1,250 left.
Everybody has a car payment. Many in the ntcc drive $500 lemon sucker specials, but they have to put their car payment into the upkeep of that oil puking junker. We'll go conservative again and say $200 per month for Car and upkeep.
Car........................$200.00
Monthly Gas for work..$125.00
Utilities...................$175.00
---------------------------------------
Disposable income......$750.00
A bible school student has to pay for his classes and some pay dorm fees which might be a little cheaper. Some folks are married and it's a lot harder on them with their wives not working. We are assuming, also, that folks have no other bills such as credit cards or storage fees. Keep in mind that the average bible school student doesn't have a job that pays $1k per week.
People in the ntcc live to go to conferences and Camp meetings. This is another expense that people have to put aside for. I would also say that RWD is smart and he knows who has money and who doesn't. He is very good at extracting money for every cause under the sun.
The bottom line is that unless you are a tight-wad, you are going to have very little for yourself or your family, even if you do make 50k per year.
DnA
It gets even better when you become a licensed unaccredited minister with Cracker Jack credentials.
ReplyDeleteNot only do you have more expenses, ie. Church building and insurance etc.... You also have to send more money to Graham. Any thing you were able to put aside at bible school, is going to be sucked up into a swirling vortex when you go out into the ministry. The cost of loading up your wagon like the Beverly Hillbillies and driving across country to "pioneer" a church is going to come out of your pocket.
You are set up for failure before you even drive out of the ntcc communal compound and church parking lot. You will be expected to send not only personal tithe to Graham but Church tithe and in many cases you will give to an escrow, so that the next poor sucker that takes your place after you have exhausted your resources will be shot down when he asks for escrow money to repair the shack you call a church. You better get some buckets to catch the water from your leaky roof, because the ntcc ain't coming up off of any of that money. The only way you are going to survive is to treat your members the same way that you were treated. You are going to have to pump them for money.
You have to be a good salesman and convince people that your cause is better than their cause. You have to convince them that spending their money on the church building is the same as giving it to God, and you will no doubt have to promise them that God will bless them as he has blessed you. Remember that the goal is to become a full time minister so that you are supported by the suckers that are following you.
It's a vicious cycle and the ntcc is so far away from any of the ideals put forth in the New Testament. All Christians pay tithe and give in offerings. Your tithe and offerings are going to end up in Davis and Kekel's bank accounts sooner or later. Escrows will get zeroed out and more offerings will be taken up. The ntcc is a constant cycle of keeping people at all levels broke and beholden to the ntcc leadership. The only hope of you ever having anything is to break away from these money grubbers or to stay with them for 40 years and if you become profitable enough you too can be a board member one day and perhaps you will get a bigger piece of the pie.
DnA
The fact is Don and Ange, the NTCC does have many ways to suck every dime they can get out of you. Look, they keep records of everything everybody gives other than cash offerings and the pastor isn't blind. In many cases he can see what most people put in the offering basket if they spend any amount of time at his church. Especially the faithful people who often sit on the front few rows. And it's a know fact that the NTCC leadership gauges your degree of faithfulness on what you give. Try making a $10 pledge or just putting a dollar in the offering plate and see what gets slung across the pulpit. I've heard it. Pastors getting all on their congregation because some people weren't considered to have put enough in the offering basket. Ramirez and Mayers were real careful to put a whole bunch of emphasis on the "offerings" and how much they felt people should give.
ReplyDeleteDude, the NTCC isn't entitled to one nickel of my money and I regret ever giving them that much say no less what I shelled out. What is the point of the offering anyway? So it can somehow wind up under Davis and Kekel's control? You might as well give your money to Bill Gates or Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan!!!
Seriously think about it people. Would you give your money to those guys? Why not, because they don't need it and they already have way more than you? So why in the world are you giving it to millionaires like Davis and Kekel? What in the world is the purpose of the offering? To make the rich even richer while you struggle even more? You give an offering when there is a need for an offering and in the NTCC there is "NEVER" a need. There is no shortage of money floating around in the NTCC. It's not my fault or yours that RWD and Kekel the millionaires don't want to take care of their churches needs. Kekel is getting richer and you are getting poorer or in many cases barely braking even and the NTCC needs your money? PLEASE!!!! I need my money. I went and played golf today, and golf costs money and that is no different than Kekel paying about $20,000 a year so his son could attend a private academy and play football. If that is ok, then me spending money on golfing is ok and I can do that when I don't give all my money to the NTCC. When G. Kekel was playing football, he needed a new cleats and I need a good pair of golf shoes. He needed uniforms and I needed clubs. The Kekels had a foosball table and basket ball hoop at their house so if they can have that, I can have golf clubs. Nice ones. When I was in the NTCC Phil Kinson told me I should go play golf for recreation and that is a fact. I couldn't afford it then but I certainly can now.
If RWD and Kekel can live in luxury, so can I.
Chief
Yeah I know, some will say, "A lot of these NTCC satellite churches have a financial need". Well if I knew that every dime I gave stayed in that church at that location I could understand but that is hardly the case. If you are in Columbus for example and you give your money to the Columbus church, entirely too much of it winds up in Graham. I'm not funding some millionaire's lifestyle and it's just that simple and I'll guarantee God has no problem with me feeling that way. NO WHERE in the New Testament is the fulfillment of that practice advocated, suggested or implied. NO WHERE!!! I'm not giving my money to some rich cat so his kid can live high on the hog while mine wear clothing that came from goodwill. My kid ain't going to be living in some run down apartment while Kekel's kid lives in a mansion. We ain't going to be getting stuck on the side of the road while his kid rides in a BMW. You NTCC people who are struggling are completely out of your minds. And if you have children, you are giving them a lousy childhood. Not my boy. Only the best for that little dude. Kekel can kiss my butt. My little boy has brand new shoes that he hasn't even worn yet; New Balance baby.
ReplyDeleteWhat do I put so much emphasis on this kind of stuff? Because you are paying so the Kekels can live the kind of lifestyle that you should be living and could be living if you'd smarten up!!! I know serving God ain't all about living high on the hog but if that's the case, why in the world are you funding that kind of lifestyle for Kinson, Kekel and Davis? Not me buddy. Brand new New Balances still in the box for my little buddy when he wears out the other two pairs that he wears. I'm not paying to take care of G. Kekel's feet, I'm paying to take care of my little buddy's feet. I'm not paying $600 so G. Kekel can have an Xbox with games, I paid $600 so my little buddy can have an Xbox with games. I'm not paying for Kekel's fat house, I'm paying for my fat house. It's not as fat as Kekel's but it's fat enough for me and my family. Dude, I live a very good life and it's been immeasurably better since I left the NTCC. I have it so good it's truly unbelievable and I'm not exaggerating.
I went golfing today at Fort Benning, and the money that was raised by the golf tournament went toward helping out soldiers. How in the world does life get any better than that? And it gets even better. At the end of the tournament, my boss said that me him and two other guys I work with need to do it again some Friday in the future! Life is good people and I'm not going to go over to clean my boss's house so I can suck up to him either. He wouldn't allow it under any circumstances anyway even if I was idiot enough to do it which I'm not. Unlike Kekel, my boss is a real leader. He doesn't "use" his subordinates like the Kekels do. You want life and that more abundantly? Leave the NTCC if you are in it; that would be a good place to start.
Chief
Chief, I remember seeing Grant driving Daddy's BMW some time ago, he looked so happy and carefree. I thought at the time, something is wrong with this picture, I was right. He was laughing, all the way to Nordstroms, or something like that....
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if it would be possible to get the tax returns for NTCC and the officers of this so-called non-profit corporation? You would think that it would be a matter of public record, but the way these guys operate this shell game I'm sure they're shifting money around. Alot would be cleared up if Kekel or anyone of them came clean as to how they got the money they have in the first place and what investments do they have as a result of it. Instead you're met with ambiguous statements, vague anecdotes, or marked as a problem for asking too many questions. In the NTCC, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer because the rich can hide the wealth that they extract from the poor and reinvest it in themselves.
ReplyDeleteLooks like Dobyns got a nice $150000 profit on the first one -
ReplyDeleteHouse Flip 1 - $150K
House Flip 2 - $30K
House Flip 3 - $130K
I guess that would get you one of these - Big House
Makes you wonder if he used any of the so-called building crew or any of the "brothers" that work on his insulation crew.
Is Dobyns at the Graham church? If so, what does he look like? I have heard this name but I don't know who he is.
ReplyDeleteDobyns is one of Nichelle Tieman's brothers.
ReplyDeleteThanks, but I still don't know who he is. But, on a different note maybe that explains why they have not kicked her out, I have read some disturbing information about Mrs Tieman here. Infidelity, and such.
ReplyDeleteThats nothing new. You can find the same kind of info about Davis, Kinson, Terry and Wright and all since they were in the ntcc. Mrs Tieman was out there to put it mildly. Just about all the NTCC bigwigs have dirty laundry and all since they were supposedly saved.
ReplyDeleteI know, this blog has really opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of the NTCC, and I want no part of it, what tangled webs we weave...
ReplyDelete"Is Dobyns at the Graham church?"
ReplyDeleteHe not only goes to the Graham church, he pumps a lot of money into that corrupt mafia organization
Nothing against Dobyns, I don't know him and have nothing against him, but you can bet he won't get one of those calls from Davis or Olson, asking for him to pray about going somewhere. From what we're hearing lately, they need all the tithe money they can get, to stay in Graham so they can continue to maintain the lifestyles that they have grown accustomed to.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah. You won't see Dobyns getting send to pioneer a work. You best believe the crooked NTCC leaders won't be giving up that income. I'd like to see them order that dude to sell all and go pioneer a work! Hell would freeze over first. I'll bet Dobyns would go anyway.
ReplyDeleteChief
So, Dobyns is a licensed minister, he employs the "bretheren" of the church and pays tithe, there is no way on this earth that they will send him to do a "work", he is far too valuable in Graham. And on a nother note, interestingly enough, Keckel and Davis must be preaching to be at least "friendly" when the congregation sees someone who has left the NTCC church in Graham. I am actually getting a "hi or hello" whereas, when I was a member there. I would get nothing from most of the so called "sisters" I am sorry that I sound nasty, but this is quite surprising to me. So, in retrospect, Davis and Kekel must be saying to them, don't treat them like they are reprobate or whatever they like to call X NTCC people. At least say something to them when you run into them. And, you always do run into NTCC people when you are in Graham and Puyallup, where the headquarters is. Just sayin.
ReplyDeleteSo Don and Ange, what are you hearing? has the congregation started to really dwindle in Graham? No surprise there...
ReplyDelete"Keckel and Davis must be preaching to be at least "friendly" when the congregation sees someone who has left the NTCC church in Graham. I am actually getting a "hi or hello" whereas, when I was a member there. I would get nothing from most of the so called "sisters"
ReplyDeleteNo, the preaching is the same. Maybe you are encountering people who have their own mind and are tired of the whole charade.
When I was in the Church and saw people who had left, I would have conversations with them.
And to be honest , in my situation, it was THEM (the one who had left) that was more open. When I was there I was single and the married women were holier than thou, I wasn't worthy BUT when they left and I saw them in public, some were nicer...
I didn't look down at people from different Churches so that was never my issue.
Yeah, it's still the same. They still drop all the anecdotes about being faithful, how they wouldn't talk to anyone that's left, check who your friends are, how they can't believe some people still have people listed as friends on Facebook, etc. Here's some suggestions so they quit losing people -
ReplyDeleteIf you would have genuinely loved them and showed concern then they might not have left.
If you quit putting blame on them and not responsiblility for yourselves then they might not have left.
If you wouldn't act so pious, holier-than-thou and arrogant then they might not have left.
If you listened to them rather than questioning the intent of their questions then they might not have left.
If you were more transparent in how their tithes and offerings were spent and they could see the worthwhile causes they contribute to then they might not have left.
If you would have preached Christ and not an organization or forced allegiance to its leaders then they might not have left.
Just some suggestions...
Has this ever been addressed? As the women in ntcc we are treated as third class citizens. trained to rely on the man to be the leader. Make the decisions,earn the money,run the household,some even boss there wives around. So after leaving ntcc alot of us carried there stinking thinking with us for sometime after leaving. Eventually that fog begins to lift and we see things alot clearer. But what about the women that had that stinking thinking that they are the weaker vessel and it was part of life for the man to run the show. It does take time for that to get out of there brain. And become a free moral agent on there own two feet. It seems some men get out and there used to running there show and think the woman should just go right back how they used to be to. Well for some of us it is not that easy. It does take time. All of it contributes to the PTSD that we all get from being in that cult. Those that read this and have recently left or thinking of leaving.I would ask that men have patience with there wives. Mine didn't and left me!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said:
ReplyDelete"So Don and Ange, what are you hearing?"
DnA said:
Nothing earth shattering just what we know from other folks leaving. People that have left in the last year include some heavy hitters and some ministers have come on this blog and shared. For an organization as small as the ntcc to lose that many ministers, speaks for itself. It has been shared for the past year that attendance in Graham isn't half of what it used to be. People are waking up. Hopefully they will continue to realize that the ntcc is dragging them down. If you are looking for a church that is spiritual and where God's love is real and present, the ntcc is the last place you want to go. You might as well tie a bag of heavy rocks around your neck and cast yourself over Niagra Falls.
LOL, DnA. That sounds alot like "just go ahead" and kill yourself. ;-)
ReplyDeleteThis is for anonymous who's husband left her after they both left the NTCC. That is a sad situation, and I feel for you. Maybe, the problem is that the man hides behind the NTCC doctrine and now that you both have left your husband cannot stand up and be a man. If it was your decision to leave and he followed maybe he resents the fact that you made the decision that you had had enough. Anyhow, it is tough when you leave this cult. My marriage has also ended and I cannot attribute it to the NTCC. BUT, I will say one thing to you. Being in the NTCC did not help me in my marriage at all, it changed me so that my looks faltered, my career aspirations faltered and now I am left to pick up the pieces of my life. But I will make it through this with Gods and my family's help. I wish I could talk to you about this... I think marriage breakups happen after leaving the NTCC more often than not.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said,
ReplyDelete"That sounds a lot like "just go ahead" and kill yourself."
DnA said,
That was a little extreme. My point was and is, there is very little hope in the ntcc. It is a very negative environment and most people go down hill during their ntcc experience. It's hard to soar with the eagles when you surround yourself with buzzards.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI think marriage breakups happen after leaving the NTCC more often than not.
Chief said...
It's really sad to read your story and I mean that sincerely. The main reason that NTCC marriages fail is because the two people were never compatible in the first place. In the NTCC, you never get a chance to really get to know your potential spouse prior to marriage. You hardly get a chance to talk, to socialize or to learn much of anything about each other. Then you can't get along because you weren't even compatible in the first place and it puts a strain on everything and you wind up breaking up. Many couples break up prior to leaving the NTCC and a lot break up after but the reason is the same. The divorce rate is so high with NTCC couples because of what I already stated.
Many marriages are set up for failure right from the start as soon they materialize in the NTCC.
You see this is exactly why I preach so much on this blog to primarily WOMEN!!! You women are really set up for failure more so than most of you can possibly imagine. I see it clearly just a plain as the nose on my face. Listen WOMEN!!!! You can't just keep going around all willy nilly, thinking that life is just some kind of fantasy. It's not, it's real. God is not going to rain money from the clouds when you and your husbands so often go separate ways. You will need a job and you will need skills and you will need independence, none of which you are effectively prepared for as a result of your involvement with the NTCC. The NTCC is a plague that ruins lives, not the other way around. My wife has a degree and all kinds of high level work experience but it was not easy for her to find a decent job, you know why? Because she had gone too long in the NTCC without WORKING!!!! What are you ladies going to do if your husbands leave you or you leave them? Work till the very day you die? You are certainly not prepared for any realistic hope of retirement!!!! The NTCC ain't going to do jack for you when you are old and feeble, do you think?
You all better wake up and this is also to you men: Do you care so little about your wives that you will continue to require them to live in such an awkward, unstable and volatile position? Do you think God is simply going to rain manna from the sky? If you think so, when is the last time YOU witnessed such an event? Y'all better wake up quick because time ain't on your side. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink.
Chief
Well said Chief, I agree with you 100%, a woman married to a NTCC minister is truly set up for failure. A woman needs to secure her own future for herself and her children, if the marriage should fail, then where are you? alone, no job, no education and you will get no help from the NTCC, they may try to marry you off to some other poor minister, only if you went to bible college, and if not you are really in a bind. Only hope your family will be there to help you try to rebuild your life. Chief, these women really are living in a dream world, but thats not my reality, I live in the REAL world. These women really do need to wake up...
ReplyDeleteChief said..."You all better wake up and this is also to you men: Do you care so little about your wives that you will continue to require them to live in such an awkward, unstable and volatile position?"
ReplyDeleteI've been hanging back and reading the comments from this thread and its been very interesting. It's sad to hear of the story of divorces while in and after leaving NTCC. As you said, women are already setup for failure. They may have been in the military and had an MOS that was usable in the civilian world, but they get to Graham and chose to work at a fast food restaurant or some minimum wage job, in hopes that their "white knight" will appear.
So when Mr Knight makes his appearance and he goes through the process of permission established by RWD-bag, she gets to talk to him for maybe 1/2 hour twice a week. Depending if its a minister / student or 2 students they may not be able to call each other on the phone. Many marry within 6 months of talking and probably haven't spent as much as 24 hours talking together.
So they get married and she quits her job. She sits around the apartment, cleaning, then rearranging, then cleaning some more. They eat dinner together, go to church together, and go to classes together. As the years go by they may help out in a church and even have children, but any skills and drives for her own independence have all but dissipated.
Maybe something happens, they argue over money and the kids. They get cold towards each other, someone at work befriends our young man and talks nicely to him. A couple months go by and his new friend understands him better than his wife and one thing leads to another. He makes plans without his wife knowing, emailing, chatting, and meeting during work hours. She knows within her heart something is wrong, but doesn't have the courage to confront her husband and continues to take the emotional abuse. WHAT DOES SHE DO?
She takes care of her children first and reaches back out to family to help her get established again. After being away from the workforce for awhile she checks out any work skill programs they offer in her city, looks for a temp job or something to get her started. She uses her GI Bill to become better educated in a field she was once passionate about. Doors open, she makes new friends, and hopefully by taking a stand towards her husband he wakes up and sees how his family was ruined. In the end they divorce because of his adultery, but scenarios like this playout as sands in the hourglass, these are "The Days of NTCC".
And the interesting thing is, he is in a CHRISTIAN church, where christian men are not suppose to commit adultery. Is this not a sin, this church perpetuates marriage failures to begin with. So he just sits there listening to the preaching, but it is all for not. This is part of the hypocricy that is the NTCC.
ReplyDeleteNot only does the NTCC leadership approve or veto relationships, they often match people up themselves. They aren't very good at it either, but the severe restrictions they impose make it impossible for these couples to learn enough about one another to realize that they're incompatible, and besides that, the options are very limited since marrying outside the group is taboo. We were all of prime marriageable age, living celibate lives, and there wasn't any normal person who didn't want to get hitched up. The whole scenario was guaranteed to produce a preponderance of dysfunctional marriages, and it has. These "leaders" are more culpable than the divorcees themselves, who were often just young dupes trying their best to do right.
ReplyDeleteNTCC "leaders" are the perfect modern counterparts of the worst Pharisees of Jesus' time. They don't care about people, and treat them like dirt. Warm smile, glad hand, cold heart. Beware!
I noticed on the bottom of your blog there was a PPC ad that says "Tithing in the New Testament will Bring Financial Security!"
ReplyDeleteI clicked into it just for grins and could only watch 2 minutes of the 30 minute video. There are suckers born every day. If it were true that New Testament tithing brought financial security, myself and thousands of others would be filthy rich because we all gave our tithe cheerfully to the ntcc for many years. It's nothing but a big hoax. There is no such thing as New Testament tithing. Just read your bibles.
I could only stomach 2 minutes of the video but I would encourage any one of you ntcc'rs that faithfully pay your tithe to watch this video and let us know which New Testament Scriptures are mentioned. I predict that nobody will come back on here and share scriptures from the New Testament that justify tithe. And do you know why? I do, Chief does and so do many of the readers of this blog. I only watched the intro, so I'm sure that in 30 minutes worth of video there should be at least one scripture that proves New Testament tithing will greatly bless you. After all that's what the video is about so I'm sure they must have some scripture to back them, right? Let us know. Get back with us on this, because we all have been waiting for this revelation.
DnA
Interesting articles - Should Pastors Tithe to Church?
ReplyDeleteFinancial Faithfulness
Sorry...NT scriptures for tithing
ReplyDeleteFinancial Faithfulness
Should pastors tithe to church
How should churches collect money
Who should be pay tithes to
Here's another one - They devour widows houses
ReplyDeleteDoes robbing God in Malachi apply to us today
ReplyDeleteEveryone on this blog needs to read the article - "They Devour Widows Houses" that someone linked on here. It breaks down the scripture about the widow giving her last 2 mites and the true meaning behind it. Many times this was used by NTCC pastors and their board members in conferences to preach about sacrificial giving. Sure Tanya can sing about "Give it all to Jesus" and get people crying, but they've never sacrificed at all eventhough they expect everyone else to do it.
ReplyDeleteJust like I thought. I woke up this morning, anxious to look for NT scriptures that supported tithe, and all I found was a bunch of links. No New Testament scripture. I thought someone would at least throw a couple verses out there and twist their meaning a little, but it didn't happen.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that there are no scriptures to be found in the NT that support mandatory tithing. I wasn't trying to bust on anyone that pays tithe willingly, nor was I saying that doing so is wrong. My point is that you can't buy blessings and tithe is not going to secure your financial future. Many of us have read the bible many times over and cherish it's contents, but it's either there or it's not, and nobody seems to be able to point to verses that justify NT tithing. Now NT giving is a different subject. There is justification for giving in the NT, but there is no amount specified and the only requirement is that you do it cheerfully.
DnA
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"Sure Tanya can sing about "Give it all to Jesus" and get people crying, but they've never sacrificed at all eventhough they expect everyone else to do it."
DnA said:
The apple has not fallen far from the tree. Oh, I almost forgot, she was adopted, wasn't she? Pulling on the heart strings of the masses to get them to open their wallets was a tactic that RWD had mastered.
Money is necessary for just about every purpose under the sun, but in the ntcc you best believe that there is only one purpose for your money that matters. If you don't pay your tithe, you will be called out as a God-robber. They want your dollars and they want as many of them as you are willing to give. It doesn't matter if you can afford clothes or food or transportation. Tithe comes first, because the ntcc is all about money. RWD and his band of crooks are living large and smug in Washington, because they have convinced you that tithe and offerings are the most important duties that a Christian is obligated to perform. They will overlook adultery, child molestation, and a whole slew of crimes and sins, but try not paying your tithe and see how long you last.
If you are a Pastor in the ntcc and you are good at bringing in tithe, you can get away with just about anything. If accusations are brought against you, they will be dismissed. If you are a corrupt ntcc minister and your corruption becomes known among your congregation, and you are a tithe generating pastor, you will be moved to another city where the people don't know your works and you will be allowed to continue cranking out money. Everyone else will be hushed or ran off if necessary. They will be told to stop gossiping, and you will always have a place in the ntcc. But if you mess the money, you will bring certain wrath down upon yourself. Try it and see what's more unforgivable. We are not making this stuff up. Money rules in the ntcc, period.
DnA
2 Cor 8:9 "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that although he was rich, he became poor for your sakes, so that you by his poverty could become rich."
ReplyDeleteIn the ntcc things are the opposite.
They are made rich by your poverty for their own sake. They are crooks.
Btw the links were very good, and supported much of what has been shared here. Very informative and true. If you are looking for scriptures on NT giving as opposed to what some blow hard ntcc preacher says about it, take a look.
ReplyDeleteCheck this out. The Ramirez's sporting some high budget Bling Rings.
ReplyDeleteYour tithe dollars at work.
For crying out loud, its okay to have a nice wedding set!!!
ReplyDeleteThis is to the Pastors who rob widows of their purses, and take advantage of people who are depressed, or are in a situation of dire straits.....
ReplyDeleteI hope that God has a special place in Hell reserved for you-all.
I don't think there is anything wrong with having a nice wedding ring, remember, its the ONLY jewelery you can wear in the NTCC, I would want that for myself too. The no jewelery rule is not biblical. The earrings are devils stirrups, what a a crock, but we all had to abide by these man made rules. Or they would judge you, and think to themselves, she is not right with God.
ReplyDelete1Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
ReplyDelete1 Tim 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
For crying out loud? I'd say that a couple rings clad with diamonds qualify as being in violation of 1Tim 2:9. Diamonds are quite costly and they look like they are set in gold. Those expensive rings also qualify as being considered jewelry. The NTCC leadership wants to have it both ways. For the sake of a good argument you could justify them because they are in fact wedding rings right? Was five or ten thousand dollars of diamonds necessary? What was the purpose for such expensive rings? To be seen and noticed? Why else do you opt for such nice diamonds? His ring has big diamonds also.
The NTCCs mandate against wearing jewelry is hollow. Where in the New Testament does it say that you can't wear jewelry? 1Tim 2:9? There is not one other scripture in the New Testament that even suggests you can't wear jewelry. So if 1Tim 2:9 means you can't wear jewelry then that same scripture applies to those expensive wedding rings which were purchased with no other intent but to be noticed, hence all the diamonds on both rings.
You can't have it both ways NTCC people. Just another example of glaring double standards.