This thread was originally posted on 3/21/2009
These are pictures of NTCC pastors as they blow up and go berserk while blasting someone they are verbally attacking during church service.
Thread #6 There were about 5 of us who left the Columbus, GA / Phenix City, AL / Ft. Benning New Testament Christian Church about the same time. We all had our reasons for leaving and all of our reasons differed only slightly one from another. One particular brother left the New Testament Christian Church for a variety of reasons not the least of which was the NTCC/Kekel, land deal. This thread is about this particular brother that I will call Brother D.
When Brother D stopped attending services with the New Testament Christian Church, Oberhauser was the pastor here at Ft. Benning. Prior to Oberhauser, Hunt was the pastor and we were all with Hunt before Oberhauser arrived in Columbus GA/Ft. Benning.
Apparently the Brother somehow indicated to Oberhauser that his main reason for leaving was the land deal. That is definitely my understanding having personally talked to the brother that I'm referring to.
Hunt left Ft. Benning in the first place and was replaced by Oberhauser because Hunt said that it wasn't Gods will for him to be at the Ft. Benning church from the start!!! Well Hunt comes back to Ft. Benning to replace Oberhauser who had previously replaced Hunt. I guess that God changed his mind about Hunt being here. A little humor but serious nevertheless.
Well Brother D, bless his heart, out of the blue, decides to visit the New Testament Christian Church Church recently that he had previously left. Once again now Hunt is the pastor. Apparently Hunt found out one of the reasons Brother D gave for leaving the NTCC. Brother D told me today of his encounter while revisiting the local NTCC. Hunt took the opportunity to preach about how there is nothing wrong with RWD giving his son in law a bunch of land. That might be the case if the land hadn't been officially and legally recorded as a "New Testament Christian Church INC" property prior to it being given away by the New Testament Christian Church.
You know what? All that church member blasting and verbal abuse is exactly one of the very main reasons that my wife and I left the NTCC and we won't go back. I got so sick and tired of hearing abusive pastors target church members during their sermons for personal reasons. My wife said that it is a joke to even see New Testament Christian Church pastors pray before service because what they do the majority of time is get up, look out across the congregation and decide who to target and or blast which was exactly what happened to Brother D when he haphazardly decided to walk back into an New Testament Christian Church church that he had already left. That type of practice makes me sick. Hunt did the same thing to another Brother in a vicious way and the church service became very UGLY. Hunt did this because the brother didn't agree with Hunt about his fiancée not having a job. Hunt blasted the Brother as bad or worse as I have ever heard anyone get blasted. Needless to say, that Brother also left the New Testament Christian Church. I liked Hunt quite a bit so as a result it really bothered me to witness him blast this brother in such a vicious fashion. It was totally unnecessary to say the least. I'd like to see Hunt blast some of these NTCC pastors who's wives have worked on a job while the NTCC leadership knew all about it.
On Kekels blog, Kekel decided to highlight the fact that Sis Shunk had a job while she was in Korea as though she had done something wrong? The New Testament Christian Church leadership knew all about it previously, so why is Kekel just bringing it up now? It was never a problem before not only for Sis Shunk but the other wives of NTCC pastors who kept JOBS in places like Korea to help out their hubby and help with the church expenses. The only reason that Kekel decided to bring it up now is because the Shunks had started a blog highlighting the NTCC abuse methods and double standards. Typical NTCC smear campaign tactics. Somewhere along the line I missed this scripture: 2NTCC 3:1 Young women shall be keepers at home unless they have jobs outside the US, or they work at the NTCS, or they are out soul winning, or they are cleaning up the church and Kekel's house. 2NTCC 3:2 In such cases "young" woman do not have to be keepers at home.
Jeff
This thread was originally posted on 3/21/2009
74 comments:
It's absolutely sad to hear about preachers attacking members from the pulpit. It is a misuse of their authority. However, sometimes these preachers have good intentions, they are trying to "help" the only way they know how. They haven't prayed and sought God for help in dealing with the situation, they just try it their way and it fails every time. They need your prayers, not your scorn. Pray that God helps them understand that they are not helping, but hurting. By the way, not all ministers in NTCC are like what you have described.
-concerned minister NTCC
Anonymous said...
By the way, not all ministers in NTCC are like what you have described.
Jeff said...
I'm sure that you are right however there is a substantial percentage of NTCC pastors that are exactly like I described.
When the percentage of abusive pastors is substantial, it is no longer the exception but a systemic problem. Anonymous I think I know who you are but whether I am right or wrong is of no consequence.
What is of consequence is the fact that every NTCC pastor that I ever had conducted himself in a similar fashion. Were talking about 6 different guys? What is the chance that it was just circumstantial that they all misused their authority? Slim to none. What is the chance that all these people who get on these blogs and give almost the exact same testimony are all mistaken? No chance; ZERO.
What that tells me is that these NTCC pastor's are all following the example that has been set by their leaders. The other problem with your theory is that I have witnessed their leaders act the exact same way either in fellowship meeting where an overseer was present or in conference.
Let me tell you that some don't have good intentions as you have suggested. I have been told by an NTCC pastor that he planned to blast his church member right before he did exactly that. This took place after I advised him that it wouldn't be a good idea because it wouldn't accomplish anything but negativity. He agreed with me just to go ahead and do it anyway shortly thereafter. And what is even worse is that the pastor’s interpretation of the scripture was completely off and that was what the disagreement between he and the brother was all about anyway.
That pastor shouldn't have even addressed the issue and he knew it. It had become personal and I got sick and tired of seeing the same thing take place time after time and that was one of the main reasons that my wife and I left the church for good.
My testimony is true and accurate and my statement is not just another lie of the devil as so many NTCCers like to say.
Sincerely,
Jeff Collins
Ditto !
Coward
The pastor of a church said something very negative to the minister working with him concerning where that minister wanted to see the work go. He said "you don't want to see us get x..." "you won't work for it..." I'm being very vague here because of the parties involved. The principle is still the same.
The minister assisting the pastor just gave him a blank stare. That bothered the pastor, so he repeated the two phrases a few minutes later. He got the same blank stare. Still bothered by the reaction, the pastor called the minister later that evening and repeated the phrases. The minister, not willing to hurt the pastor's feelings, and trying to be diplomatic, (he wanted to tell him point blank: a negative comment invokes a negative response) told him, "I don't understand." To which the pastor responded, "Come on, Pastor does that all the time."
I'm not saying that Pastor Davis' motives are wrong, or that what he does is wrong. He may even use that tactic from time to time. He even started to employ that tactic on me one time and stoped himself. Pastor, following the Holy Ghost, (I know some on this blog may not believe it, but I believe Pastor walks with God) must have changed what he was going to say because he realized it would not be effective with me.
The thing that some pastors don't understand, I think, is that everyone is different and needs to be dealt with differently. It may have been considered a challenge to the pastor who said "Pastor does that all the time." For him it may be something that works to help him focus and attain to a goal. So, to him it seems as though Pastor does it all the time. If Pastor does it all the time, then it should be good for us to do all the time, right? Wrong.
There are many different types of people in this world and they have to be dealt with differently to bring out the best in them. Jeff, your wife has been a teacher in different venues and differnt groups, perhaps she can attest to what I am saying.
Many pastors deal with people the way they are dealt with and it yields negative results for them because they don't understand that the people they are dealing with do not respond to those methods. I know it has been lengthy, but I am trying to make it as clear as I possibly can without sounding like I'm attacking anyone.
Please consider my explanation as at least one possibility for what has been experienced. What I am saying should not be considered as me trying to excuse these pastors in any way, please understand. Read Matthew 18. Some of these guys need to change their ways soon. The mercy of God is shortened when innocent people are harmed.
-concerned minister NTCC
Sorry Jeff, I’m not trying to hi-jack your blog and I know the ‘concerned minister’ is addressing his dialogue to you but some of the things he says bring up an issue that reveals an inherent problem with the NTCC spiritual model and I cannot resist adding my ‘two cents’ or is it ‘too sense’.
‘concerned minister’, when you make the statement, “The thing that some pastors don’t understand, I think, is that everyone is different and needs to be dealt with differently”, you raise the question: Why?
Why are there pastors in NTCC who don’t understand that everyone is different and needs to be dealt with differently?
You may be thinking to yourself, “No organization is perfect and every organization has its problems….blah…blah…blah.” But wait! NTCC claims to be unlike any other organization. Remember, they are one of the few (as NTCC leaders have said, “We aren’t the only organization right with God, but we haven’t found anyone else like us”) remaining establishments on planet earth where one can get the unvarnished truth of the gospel and who have not compromised the “Holiness Standard”.
Among the list of ministers affiliated with NTCC who “don’t understand that everyone is different and needs to be dealt with differently” are the NTCC leaders – Davis, Kekel, et al.
You make it sound as if there are a mere handful of problematic ministers, of low NTCC- notoriety, who are slightly shorthanded in the common sense department. Quite frankly, that is an arrogant point of view! (From whence came your understanding?)
Many of the ministers being revealed as abusive are among the darlings of NTCC leadership – i.e. those who have been the closest to Davis, Kekel, et al and who are willing to do anything and go anywhere in the name of NTCC.
Yet, other ministers who quietly and sincerely go out and work and give with the hope that people may come to know Jesus, are blasted in conferences and seminars because they are “too scared to preach about tithe… don’t have enough God to tell people how to live… and are not willing to work the program that is (according to Davis) already working… blah…blah…blah.”
Is the program really working?
Mr. Olson, is NTCC really winning?
Both Davis and Kekel have been known to throw other ministers ‘under the bus’ and make it seem as if the ministers have always been that way and blah…blah…blah. The question that comes to my mind is, if NTCC is admittedly aware of these problems, why has there been NOTHING done to correct the problems?
Why is there no apology to those people who have been hurt as a result of an abusive minister?
Why, when Davis is confronted about such matters, is the response always, “I try to give them space and forgive them and help them blah…blah…blah. It’s difficult to see yourself…blah…blah…blah."; yet, those who Davis says he is giving space and helping, are among those who receive public praise and compliment for being such a great individual?
It’s all hogwash!
As Jeff said earlier, and I agree completely with him, the problem is systemic!
If a minister disagrees with what has, of late, been deemed as NTCC “policy’ and not “bible” according to NTCC leadership, then he cannot be a minister in NTCC.
If he wants to do things differently than the NTCC model, his motives are questioned.
However, if he decides that he wants to be a minister in another organization and leaves NTCC, he is demonized and anyone still part of NTCC would soon find out that the departing minister was a devil and loved the world …blah… blah… blah.
Mr. concerned, if you really are, you would be making great strides if you moved a little closer to the door (yay, even crossed the threshold) that Davis often reminds people about – you know, “There’s the door, if you don’t like it, leave!”
The only one that needs to change their ways is you – if you think NTCC will change how they operate you are dead wrong. NTCC may change their outer garments in an attempt to appear less rigid to newcomers, but underneath they are the same as they ever were – The four ‘C’s – Corrupt, Coercive, Contemptible, Cuckoo
Coward
amen!!!! coward
t
To Coward and Concerned NTCC Minister: I am enjoying this Blog / Thread. I welcome Concerned NTCC Minister to our blog and I value his responses. I don't necessary agree with all his responses but unlike Kekels blog, I will not prevent folks from posting on my blog simply because they have a difference of opinion. I endeavor to have everyone treated with respect here. Who knows; Concerned Minister may be Kekel? He is welcome here.
Coward: you will never be considered as someone who is hijacking OUR blog because that's what it is. OUR blog. Buddy I agree with your statement big time.
Great point when you said this: Why are there pastors in NTCC who don’t understand that everyone is different and needs to be dealt with differently?
I was definitely in your amen corner with that statement. If you want added privileges on OUR blog to start your own threads and have them show on the homepage give me a call.
I will not moderate this blog unless there is profanity or cursing used and then I will simply delete such content. I am not into communism so forget about all this moderating business.
Reference the link below for that subject.
http://truestoriesoflifeinthentcc.blogspot.com/2009/03/i-am-creating-this-thread-as-place-for.html
I have already offered thread posting privileges to two people. This means they can start their own thread and it will show up on the homepage and people can respond accordingly. Anyone who is interested in starting their own thread / topic on this homepage, needs to contact me by phone and that includes current NTCCers. All I have to do is send someone permission by email and they can create threads until they get blue in the fingers. Ha, ha.
Jeff
404-405-7842.
Thanks Jeff!
I appreciate your willingness to keep the communication channels open!
I may take you up on your offer - I'd rather ask you for permission any day over NTCC.
Coward
Coward,
Thank you for your, um, kind words...
Like I said, in case you missed it, I am not excusing anything these pastors shamelessly do in the name of being just like Pastor Davis. They will have to answer to Jesus one day as we all will for what we do. I regret that in the process, there may be souls lost because of thoughtlessness and pride.
Why is it that pastors in NTCC don't understand certain things? I don't really know for sure. I believe I am where God wants me right now. What I do has to be directed by God. Pastor may give me direction as he sees fit, but it is ultimately God I will answer to. If more of us, in or out of NTCC would realize that, we would be better off.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned Minister said...
I regret that in the process, there may be souls lost because of thoughtlessness and pride.
Jeff said...
Concerned Minister:
I'm sincerely convinced that you don't see the whole picture. Now I'm not attacking you here so please consider what I write. Your concern is about souls being lost and on the eternal stage that "IS" ultimately the most important thing to be concerned about so I do understand that.
Not only do the abusive and manipulative NTCC pastors ruin souls but in the process they Wreck lives also and that is exactly what this thread and blog is all about. I try very hard to keep it REAL and not get all "Spiritual" when I post.
Throughout the Gospels Christ had a far greater distain and disgust for the religious hypocrites than he did for outright sinners and that fact can not be debated nor second guessed. It is a FACT.
What do you think these abusive, corrupt NTCC ministers are? Religious hypocrites.
Christ also made mention of the blind leading the blind and he also stated that not everyone that said unto him Lord, Lord would enter the kingdom of heaven and he also said: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."
Buddy that is what is happening in the NTCC!!! The abusive pastors which are many, are no more righteous than the folks that they travel all over the earth trying to convert. Much of the Doctrine that the NTCC teaches is all messed up.
What about the double standard where they wrongfully teach that women aren’t supposed to work but they make exceptions as they see fit? First thing; the scripture that they use to support this false notion refers to YOUNG women. So what age is that? Tts: 2:4 Read it. Tts 2:5 talks about being "Keepers at home". Look up keepers at home because it is ONE word in the Greek not three. It means to be domestically inclined or a good house keeper. Now what in the world does that have to do with a woman not working on the job? I'm no theological scholar but if I'm smart enough to figure that out you can't tell me that NO ONE in the entire NTCC is smart enough and I am NOT wrong. You guys just simply go along with this stuff but you never out of a sincere heart take the time to look it up yourselves and then when you find the truth have the moral strength and character to question the NTCC leadership that is willfully misleading folks.
It is a classic case of the blind leading the blind and the evidence that I just wrote can not be refuted by any intelligent individual SINCERELY looking for the TRUTH.
Respectfully Concerned Minister; you are missing the bigger picture. You would be better off leaving the NTCC if you are really concerned about souls because when you bring them into the NTCC you are leading them straight into the ditch.
Sincerely,
Jeff.
Coward said...
I may take you up on your offer - I'd rather ask you for permission any day over NTCC.
Jeff said...
LOL. That is funny my friend. Buddy you just say the word and give me an email address and I will make it happen. We all need to be on the same team and together we can accomplish the mission.
The mission? Get out as many True Stories as possible about Life In The NTCC and do it in a respectful manner. Gain credibility and people will steer clear of the organization and save themselves a whole lot of heartache and pain.
Jeff.
Concerned -
Your words reveal that you may actually possess a realistic point of view. (You may be closer to the proverbial NTCC door than you think.) However, NTCC and its apologists have used words quite effectively to further subvert those under their spell. So forgive me if I'm a tad cautious about accepting your words at face value. I am also aware that I was at one time one of the NTCC apologists!
Try to understand my perspective - which is metaphorical of quitting a bad habit such as smoking.
Once the dingy smell of smoke departs and the psychological prompter, telling the addict that he or she needs another cigarette, is gone, the individual is much more sensitive to the vice because of the control it once had on their life.
You may not be an NTCC 'smoker' per se - but your clothes carry the familiar sent because of your association with NTCC.
I respect your stance and agree that those ministers, whether NTCC affiliates or not, who purpetrate such behavior, as this thread suggests, upon a congregation they have been entrusted to lead, by example, should not be excused.
I also respect your willingness to 'take the high road' by refraining from stinging or abusive rhetoric. Best of luck to you there.
I won't lie - I'm not going to keep it pretty!
Davis, Kekel et al. suffer no consequence for referring to people as "stupid", "idiotic", "imbecilic", "devils", "compromisers", "rebelious" and other, um, kind words.
Rather, they are elevated as iconic figurines on some super-spiritual stage. They actually demand that others seek them out and apologize for not having rendered an NTCC-prescribed level of honor to them as the (self-proclaimed) "spiritual giants" they purport to be.
I'm not demanding that I be addressed delicately as some pious annointed one of God and neither do I demand apology from those who've used stinging rhetoric towards me. It really is nothing.
To coin the same southern colloquialism as Kekel "Lie down with dogs - get up with fleas!"
I guess you could say I've still got a few of those NTCC fleas and from time to time, I'll be scratching vigorously!
I'm no better or worse than anyone - it's the same dirt!
If what I say, makes sense to someone else - great! If what I say is stupid and nonsensical - tell me why. You might be right but you'll have to show me why.
I may be too blind to see it - stay on the high road amyway.
I'll help you see things you're too blind to see - we can come to some sort of agreement.
Reason is a powerful tool and I happen to believe it is God-given.
It's o.k. to disagree - it's actually healthy.
I appreciate your compliment regarding the 'kind words' even if you did have to think about it for a minute.
It's as difficult for me to accept your compliment as it is for you to render it.
I can see you've put effort into being nice - I hope it's for your sake and not others.
I apologize for waxing philisophical but you seem to front as one endeavoring to understand - let's just say you've captured my attention but I'm going to remain cautious.
Coward
Jeff,
You said:
"First thing; the scripture that they use to support this false notion refers to YOUNG women. So what age is that? Tts: 2:4 Read it. Tts 2:5 talks about being "Keepers at home". Look up keepers at home because it is ONE word in the Greek not three. It means to be domestically inclined or a good house keeper. Now what in the world does that have to do with a woman not working on the job?"
To me, what you just said proves the point that married women should remain in the home, not work outside of the home on a job. But you and I can agree to disagree on that point. I can't imagine why a pastor in NTCC would go against this doctrine for the sake of getting some extra tithe. It sounds like that man has some serious issues. Again, there is no excuse for that.
cautious Coward...
I mean that in the nicest way. I appreciate your refraining from harsh attacks. I am sincerely trying to be as gentle as possible while trying to answer some of the tough questions.
I don't pretend to know all the answers, as I have said, I don't know why some of the pastors have acted in the way they do in some areas. Sometimes we see something someone does and we don't know all the details and it looks as though that person is just inherently evil. I don't believe that most of our ministers are driven by a love for money which is, as Jesus said, the root of all evil. There may be some who are, in which case, they need to get saved!
-concerned minister NTCC
To back up what I said above, I heard in the news that there was a preschool worker who accidentally gave the kids windshield washer fluid instead of cool aid. Now, my first reaction to hearing this was, how could she possibly have confused windshield washer fluid with cool aid? They said it was the same color, but how did it get in the refrigerator? How could it possibly get out of the container marked "windshield washer fluid" and into the cool aid pitcher? Unless, the preschool director was inherently evil, right? Wrong.
I have no idea how these events took place, but I do know that many times these things can be prevented. I also know that there is never an excuse for someone willfully doing someone wrong. This director of the preschool feels so bad about what happened, even though it was a mistake, somehow, she is turning in her license. What needs to happen is for these preachers who are doing people wrong to realize it and feel bad enough about what they have done to turn in their license. If however, it is a matter of us just not seeing all of the details and there is more to the story, we need to realize that there may be more to it than we see.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned Minister said...
To me, what you just said proves the point that married women should remain in the home, not work outside of the home on a job.
Jeff said...
Respectfully sir; I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion. What I wrote clearly disproves that notion. For the scripture to clearly apply only to "Young Women" implies that there is a condition attached. We can't add to scripture and that is also clearly stated in the Bible so we can rightfully conclude that we are talking about "Young Women" where this discussion is concerned.
Second: To be domestically inclined means that someones displays or possesses a "Tendency" to spend time around the house.
To be a good house keeper means that you keep your house in ORDER; neat and tidy.
Does Mike Kekels wife display a tendency to spend time around the house when she is at the Bible school teaching? Did Ashmore's and Olson's wife display a tendency to spend time around the house when they were doing the same; working at the Bible school? I have a copy of an old handbook here when they both worked in the Bible school.
You can't have it both ways Concerned Minister and make exceptions for your people and not others.
Well not only has the NTCC certainly shown a double standard where this topic is concerned but a woman can be domestically "INCLINED" and still work on a job. My wife "NEVER" goes out at night and she is generally at our house from 1545 which is 3:45PM to 0645 or 6:45AM Monday - Friday. That is 15 hours out of the day that she is AT HOME almost without exception. She is at home all day Saturday and Sunday. Exceptions being grocery shopping or something of that nature or church.
My friend that is being domestically inclined without doubt.
Being "Domestically Inclined" DOES NOT MEAN NOR CAN IT BE INTERPRETED TO MEAN that "ALL WOMEN" can not have jobs. According to YOUR Bible you can not add to the Scripture as you see fit. 2Pe 1:20, Rev 22:18. Sir you can't add to the Bible.
There are sisters in the NTCC that spend about as much time away from the house as my wife does and they don't even have a job. My wife spent as much time away from our house as she does now or even more time away when pastor Mayers had her running around all over Atlanta picking up church supplies, painting the nursery, picking up sisters, practicing the keyboard with his wife at the church and on and on and on.
She spent about as much time away going to the church 6-10 times a week for one reason or another. We were hardly ever at home when we lived in Atlanta attending services with the NTCC. Soul winning, practicing singing, prayer, womens bible study, Sunday school meetings, soul winning meetings, and on and on and on. Is that being domestically inclined? Actually that wouldn't be if you think about it but what my wife is doing now would be. Come on sir. I am no dummy.
Agree to disagree? I think not; especially when I have just written such irrefutable facts. Your organization has it wrong; point blank. I am completely right on this one and if you are a true man you won't be able to deny any of my statements. The truth is the truth. It is what it is.
Respectfully,
Jeff.
Concerned said...
"I am sincerely trying to be as gentle as possible while trying to answer some of the tough questions."
Tough questions?????
What questions are you referring to?
I don't think anyone is asking questions that are difficult to answer. The difficulty comes when someone, who claims to be an authority on spirituality and has a reputation for instructing people to do things the way he does them (chiding them if they do not), will not accept any responsibility for instilling the abusive behavior into these people.
You make it sound as if NTCC is a good place overall and is doctrinally correct but, as with any organization, there happens to be just a few ministers who have overstepped their ministerial bounds.
Is this what you are implying? If so, I do not agree at all. There may be good people in NTCC but once they understand that the situation at hand doesn’t simply involve a few bad apples but rather the whole barrel is rotting, then they will leave.
Speaking of tough questions – tough for me anyway – here’s one:
You said in an earlier post that you believe you are where God wants you right now. Why do you believe you are where God wants you right now?
Coward
Concerned minister said..
To back up what I said above, I heard in the news that there was a preschool worker who accidentally gave the kids windshield washer fluid instead of cool aid. Now, my first reaction to hearing this was, how could she possibly have confused windshield washer fluid with cool aid? They said it was the same color, but how did it get in the refrigerator? How could it possibly get out of the container marked "windshield washer fluid" and into the cool aid pitcher? Unless, the preschool director was inherently evil, right? Wrong.
Jeff said...
What in the world. Back up your original statement? What you just wrote has nothing to do with my original statement or your original statement which you wrote in response to my original statement. You have gotten off topic because your story is not relevant. Are you implying that women who have jobs are evil or that women don't have the sense that God gave a gnat?
You must be implying something?
I would certainly hope that you weren't implying either. The best leader that I ever had directly lead me while I was in the Military spanning a 20 year period was a woman. She is now the Deputy Commanding General to Ft. Gordon Ga. She has more character, far better leadership skills and far more common sense than any NTCC minister that I ever met.
Do you realize that most murders are committed by men who HAVE JOBS or have had a job. Sir please don't get off topic. I don't want this blog to turn into no more than a bunch of nonsense that becomes hard to read through and I say that respectfully. I see no relevance in your statement. Please stay on topic with relevant info.
Sincerely,
Jeff
Jeff,
I agree with your staement about women being at home in NTCC. Okay folks lets be honest with ourselves and take the Christian rose colored glasses off.
I remember soul- winning under a very abusive Pastor, who thought the answer to his constantly running off our contacts was guess what...more soul winning. I hardly ever saw my new spouse. A few Ramen noodle dinners, and wrinkled shirts later my spouse asked me how come I was never home taking care of the house? I told him I was about the business of God, and so on. The bare bones truth of the matter was I wasn't at home and I was neglecting him and trying to cover it with fake rightousness. Bottom line was I cared more for the Pastor and other people, than for the soul of the one person God gave me.
Ladies...think about it!!!
WTE
WTE said...
Okay folks lets be honest with ourselves and take the Christian rose colored glasses off.
Jeff said...
WTE: That is exactly my point. If someone really takes that time to read what I wrote, they could not deny that it is true.
They just need to take off the rose colored glasses and get real, and stop fooling themselves. That is half the problem with the Christian world and that includes the NTCC for sure.
Good to read your post WTE. Please keep coming. For all my thoughts are worth, I'm seeing some good, thought out, relevant messages showing up on our blog here. I like when we stay on topic. It makes for better reading
Jeff.
to the concerned minister:
I respectfully disagree with you.
I wish that those "blast 'em from the pulpit pastors" were as gentle and caring toward the congregation as you are toward them. I remember people getting plowed and blasted for the very things you say they haven't done: praying and seeking God.
signed, polaris
Hi Polaris,
Nice "seeing" you again! I love the type of Pastors that you would have a "private" discussion with, then all of the sudden your private discussion is the subject of the next service.
Even the Catholic Church(whom NTCC loves to bash every now and then)knows how to keep their members priviliged information private.
Not only is it cowardly, and unprofessional, it just shows how some ministers have become un-inspired by the Word of God and their creativity has been snuffed out. Just like Samson's strengh was snuffed out when he disobeyed God!
Good point Polaris!
Waiting to Exhale
WTE said...
I love the type of Pastors that you would have a "private" discussion with, then all of the sudden your private discussion is the subject of the next service.
Jeff said...
Isn't that the truth. Often in the NTCC, your private discussion with the pastor becomes the topic of private discussion between the pastor and another brother or sister. That's after it was the topic of discussion during the next church service.
Jeff.
I remember my former pastor blasting me from the pulpit. I was making him look bad to the folks in Grahm. He said that he was going out on a limb for me and I was sawing it off. He never once said anything to me in private. I'm certain that message wasn't inspired by God. First of all I never ask him to go out on a limb for me. He was pushing me to go Graham and I must have been resisting. Whatever…
L. Travis said...
I remember my former pastor blasting me from the pulpit.
Jeff said...
You must be mistaken. Blasting you from the pulpit? NTCC ministers wouldn't ever do something like that.
Sounds like the six NTCC pastors that I had. Do you think they went to the same school Larry? Let Kekel and some of his cronies tell it, abusive pastors are the exception and are not part of a wide spread problem in the NTCC. Just a few knot heads Kekel says.
I don't think so but what do we know. Just more lies of the Devil that we tell around here, hey Larry?
Jeff.
To Waiting to Exhale:
Hello to you too! and thanks.
signed, polaris
from concerned minister NTCC...
I said previously:
“To back up what I said above, I heard in the news that there was a preschool worker who accidentally gave the kids windshield washer fluid instead of cool aid...”
Jeff said...
“What in the world. Back up your original statement? What you just wrote has nothing to do with my original statement or your original statement which you wrote in response to my original statement. You have gotten off topic because your story is not relevant. Are you implying that women who have jobs are evil or that women don't have the sense that God gave a gnat?
You must be implying something?”
You misunderstood what I said in my last two posts, taking it as some sort of woman bashing thing. Be careful how you answer people Jeff.
Proverbs 29:11
This was referring to the statement I made: "Sometimes we see something someone does and we don't know all the details and it looks as though that person is just inherently evil." Sorry for the confusion, I thought I made it clear. I was, in no way referring to the fact that the preschool worker was a woman. Let me make this plain to you, WOMEN CAN WORK ON A JOB! We believe that MARRIED women should stay at home and keep the home.
You want me to debate you on this issue, but I am not going to. It is not that I am afraid that you will win the argument. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. We will not change each other's minds. I read the entire context, and it is very clear to me. There are a lot of churches out there that believe different things, interpreting scripture differently. Will you also debate them? I don’t wish to carry this any further.
WTE said…
“I hardly ever saw my new spouse. A few Ramen noodle dinners, and wrinkled shirts later my spouse asked me how come I was never home taking care of the house? I told him I was about the business of God, and so on.”
Either you are slightly exaggerating, or that pastor is very wrong. If the pastor really had you working that hard, I’m sorry for what you had to endure, it should not have happened.
Waiting to exhale said…
“I love the type of Pastors that you would have a "private" discussion with, then all of the sudden your private discussion is the subject of the next service.”
I have seen pastors use elements of private discussions to illustrate a point. In their minds, they are helping others who may also have the same problems but are afraid to ask for help. I don’t think I have seen someone’s private matters dragged out in a service where you know the details about the person, including their name and their problem. If this happened, it should not have.
Coward asked…
“Why do you believe you are where God wants you?”
Simple, because God is directing my life. God has not told me to go elsewhere. I have been confronted many times by others (including ministers in NTCC) who asked if I was sure about what I was going to do, and I was. You know what? When I did what God was directing me to do, it worked out great! You questioning me about being in the will of God isn’t going to change me now. I’m just telling you why I think the way I do about this, please don’t take as an attack in any way.
-concerned minister NTCC
To concerned minister - you think that woman should not hold jobs? Apparently God felt differently, when he talked about all the qualities of a virtuous woman, and included the fact that a virtuous woman makes things and sells them in the market place (Proverbs 31). I see this as providing some sort of income for her family. In today's world, we have more open to us women than crafting things - I think many of us can say we have little to no creativity when it comes to making things. Back then, that was what was women were good at - they handed down their craft to their daughters, who in turn were able to put it to good use. Today, like I said, we have more open to us, so while I may not be able to provide our family with any supplemental income as a seamstress, I can do what I AM good at, and provide income from my nanny position. I truly believe that I am supported by Proverbs in this, no?
jm
JM,
Do whatever the Holy Ghost and your relationship with God will allow you to do.
-concerned minister NTCC
Haha!!! Thanks for your permission.. though I wasn't aware I needed it.
jm
Concerned minister said...
We believe that MARRIED women should stay at home and keep the home.
There are a lot of churches out there that believe different things, interpreting scripture differently.
Jeff said...
Obviously you entitled to believe what ever you want to. You say that different churches "Interpret" scriptures differently. That is true but some of the interpretation is willfully done wrong and that is the case with what you wrote. You can't interpret "Young Women" to mean "Married Women” and you can't interpret "Domestically Inclined" or keeper at home to mean Married Women can't have a job.
If you are going to be anything in this life to anyone, be true and be real and admit when someone else is correct.
Jeff.
Concerned,
I realize now that you are merely putting on a phony facade. Your niceties are shallow and you make no distinction between NTCC policy and as you say, “the will of God”; ever so careful – yea, even cautious - with your political answers.
You may well be running for an NTCC office – or already hold an (socially perceived) elevated office. This is standard operating procedure for NTCC leadership. You are, in fact, an NTCC ‘smoker’ trying to act as if you’ve never been privy to any of the NTCC atrocities.
Admitting that atrocities take place is only half of the truth – the other half is being willing to admit that NTCC policy has been injurious to a great many people throughout the years (though you deny it.)
NTCC has the trademark for ‘half truths’ – For example, Kekel may say, “I don’t read Tracy’s blog or FACT.net”, and this may be true as long as the statement doesn’t become too specific such as “I am unknowledgeable about any of the content contained on Tracy’s blog or FACT.net.”
The meatier part of the matter is that Kekel is fully aware of what is being posted on any of the anti-NTCC blogs, though he may not read them himself.
What is the difference if someone reads or listens? Exactly! – in one endeavor, the auditory senses are utilized, and, in the other, visual sensors are utilized.
However, both endeavors will yield understanding and knowledge. Yet Kekel, desiring to be a public example, abstains from reading the anti-NTCC content but not from knowing about it. Hence, Kekel can, in “good” conscience make a statement like “I don’t understand why people read Tracy’s blog...” in hopes of deterring people from reading the content, that is exposing NTCC for what it is, while he feasts upon the content himself but through a different channel.
Concerned, since, as you say, “God is directing” your life, why don’t you abstain from reading blogs that are unfavorable to NTCC? Are you hoping to provide clarity to the murky and “troubled waters”?
So, God directs Kekel not to read (the anti-NTCC blogs) but rather to hear from others; but you, He directs to read and post as ‘Concerned’? So, Kekel doesn't understand but you do????????
You pose as one possessing enough authority to “answer the tough questions” – Who’s questions are you hoping to answer and for what purpose?
Isn’t it true that NTCC holds the opinion that those who have departed from the ranks of NTCC are – “outside of God’s will”?
Certainly, the shining examples set forth by NTCC leadership would provide such an aura of clarity and guidance that no one under such a leadership would desire to come to places of “ill repute” like these blogs????
It is obvious that Kekel is curious to know what is being said on these blogs because many of his recent dispelling of ‘rumors’ seems to be aimed directly at appeasing the ‘silent uprising’ that has resulted from exposure to the content contained in the blogs that Kekel doesn’t read but other NTCC affiliates do.
Kekel has often talked about the ‘intention’ of one’s heart when referring to a particular action that someone has taken [An explanatory anecdote ensues].
Imagine I was an NTCS student and I was invited to ‘fellowship’ with student ‘Idioto’ and I said, “Thanks, Idioto! I’d love to.” Unfortunately, I was unaware that student ‘Idioto’ hadn’t attained the proper permission from ‘DA-MAN’ before I accepted the invitation. OOPS!
Now, suppose that I didn’t think that asking for permission to fellowship was stupid and I happened to ask student ‘Idioto’ if he had acquired the “approval eyebrow” from ‘DA-MAN’ and ‘Idioto’ says [red faced], “Ahhh…well…uhh… No!” OOPS AGAIN!
However, if I said, “No big hairy deal…” and joined ‘Idioto’ for fellowship anyway, now, according to NTCC – that is not an OOPS or even an OOPS AGAIN. Rather that is a rapture-impeding action that will require a Kekel-approved amount of groveling at the feet of a certain president of NTCS and subsequent begging for forgiveness in order to remove the cloud of condemnation from over my ‘desiring-to-be-right-with-NTCC-heart’.
If, I KNEW ALL ALONG, that ‘Idioto’ didn’t get the required permission and then I accepted his invitation but said in my darkened heart – “I’ll just get permission from Kekel on my way out of the building.”, then, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, according to Kekel, the intentions of my heart would be corrupt because I KNEW BEFOREHAND and the ‘intention’ was already there.
This action, getting permission at the last minute and after the fact, is what some may deem as a ‘rapid fire permission exercise’. Every student knows that you don’t ask permission after you’ve already made arrangements – YOU GET PERMISSION FIRST, or else!
Here is the focus:
Why does Kekel get to execute a ‘rapid fire permission exercise’ with regard to his affection for NON-PROFESSIONAL organized sporting events?
Maybe it's because Kekel has said, he’s “not under the same rules as the congregation” and he doesn’t have to answer to anyone except Davis.
Why does Kekel feel the need to get permission from the congregation in a 'rapid fire permission exercise'?
Kekel was fully aware that, if too many people found out about his son taking part in a secular activity, there would be issues. Yet, Kekel waits, until many people become enlightened about his UNDER-THE-RADAR sports activities, to start a blog and say there's ‘A rumor that’s not.’??? OOPS!
Kekel says: "Hello, Rev. Congregation! That’s a nice tie you’re wearin! Would it be alright if my son plays on a secular sports team dressed in spandex so tight I could spin $20.00 worth of quarters on them at one time? OOPS – I already did it!
Rev. Congregation replies: "HEE-HAW! HEE-HAW!
This is an Executive demonstrating how to properly initiate the Rapid Fire Permission Exercise (RFPE).
Another Executive RFPE – the 39 gifted acres (in Kekel’s name for $160,000 +/- $$$$) that weren’t going to be needed by NTCC which must be why they were planning to subdivide the land into 8 interior lots. What...? Doesn’t everybody spend $$$$ to survey land and go through the short platting process for land that just isn’t going to be needed?????????????
Why hasn’t NTCC mentioned anything publically about the subdivision that was applied for by Gesang Enterprizes?
Kekel/Davis/Olson in unison:
"Hello, Rev. Congregation! Would it be alright if we transferred these 39 acres of land from a non-profit organization into the hands of a party who has a direct interest in the non-profit organization? OOPS – too late we already did it!
Rev. Congregation replies: "HEE-HAW! HEE-HAW!"
Concerned – you are concerned about maintaining your political image as a ‘nice guy’ but you align yourself with and defend (your silence is your defense) those who have proven themselves drunk with corruption and hence, I hold you equally liable.
Have a nice day!
Coward
Jeff, once again, think about it before you say it. How do these "young women" who can't be married have husbands they should love, in the same verse? Read the rest of the verse. To me, it's obvious he is speaking directly to the young married women.
I came here to try to clarify some things and I get attacked. I guess, it is because there is no one else from NTCC posting here. I never attacked anyone, and yet, the very ones who talk about being verbally abused are the ones who are doing the verbal attakcs. I guess it is all those years in NTCC under abusive pastors that rubbed off on you guys?
By the way, Coward, that was a very... interesting take. Slanted, but interesting. Sounds like it could almost be true. Isn't that what the devil does, takes elements of the truth and uses them to try to get someone to do something they shouldn't. Very crafty.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned said... "By the way, Coward, that was a very... interesting take. Slanted, but interesting. Sounds like it could almost be true..."
Almost????
I would that you were not only almost but all together
convinced. But of course, you are all together convinced that I am "slanting" the truth.
Please feel free to show me wherein I have "slanted" the truth. I'm not even requesting that you be nice about it. You're a tough person aren't you? Don't let these "attacking" remarks get you down and prevent you from your mission of clarifying ... whatever it is you hope to clarify.
You are not exactly being led like a lamb before his shearers is dumb here - you came here of your own volition - don't let any of us hinder your cause - especially not "slanted" little ol' me!
In a nice way, have a nice day!
Coward
This thread is about pastors verbally abusing people.
To all you ntcc defenders, I have some questions:
1. Why is Oberhauser and Mayers still allowed to pastor an ntcc church? Many people have testified that they are abusive, manipulative preachers, who have used the pulpit for their own gain. Some stories are incredibly disturbing. Why has ntcc decided to ignore all these complaints?
2. Why does ntcc encourage it's preachers to be pushy, manipulative and use guilt trips to motivate people? Why not just allow the Holy Ghost to do His job? I don't recall Jesus using verbal abuse against His disciples.
3. How long will ntcc continue to sweep these abuses under the carpet? When confronted with a report of abuse, the leadership of ntcc ignores it or attacks the victim. Do you believe that ntcc's abusive pastors is pleasing with God? If not, why does it continue?
If you read some of my above posts, you may recall that I said things like there is no excuse for abusive language, and the mercy of God is shortened, I will now even say, cut off when innocent people are harmed. I have tried to show you that I don't aprove of people being abused in any way. I guess all my remarks on this subject have been ignored because I post with minister NTCC. If you will read my comments objectively, you will find that I have been very fair to both sides.
Read the first comment to the first thread on this blog. It was added to by Jeff, not attacked, or contradicted. He was answering a post made by me. If you don't think I'm being treated unfairly in this thread, think again.
-concerned minister NTCC
To concerned minister,
My post wasn't a slam against you at all, but an open-ended question to all still in ntcc. To date, I have never seen a true response to these questions. I'm sure you know who I am. It just seems logical to me that if you or I were in a leadership position in ntcc, we would put a stop to the abuses asap-- no excuses. I think church leaders forget that we are living in the New Testament and not the Old.
Casey, I wasn't referring to you specifically when I spoke of attacks against me. I will say, just so you know, Rev. Oberhauser is in Washington right now and has been for at least a few months. I don't know why he is there, but he isn't pastoring right now.
I believe that if you or I were in a leadership position in NTCC, and if we were made aware of pastors using such abusive tactics on their members and there was ample evidence to back it up, we would absolutely put a stop to it, no excuses.
As I said before, there are times when we don't know all the facts concerning a matter. This is not to excuse abuse, but we must be careful not to be quick to judge. Have I been quick to judge anyone reporting abuse on this blog?
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned,
If you know me then you know I am the last person to judge someone quickly. But, I have to say, in my 20+ years in ntcc, I had my share of abuse also. One of these days maybe I'll share them. It was never enough to leave the org, but it was there non-the-less. There were just certain preachers I knew to avoid, because they were just plain... how do I say it... jerks. Unfortunately, they were always favorites of Davis and I knew I could not complain about them. God knows they were not justified. I did make the mistake one time of telling Davis about one such incident, and he proceeded to "jack me up" at the next conference for even saying anything about it. I learned the hard way to say nothing about abuses I saw. And, I am not a person to acuse someone easily. Anyway, I gotta go, so we'll have to continue later. Maybe I'll name some specific examples just for the record.
Concerned,
This is probably a subject for another thread, but why do you think I left?
Concerned Minister said...
If you read some of my above posts, you may recall that I said things like there is no excuse for abusive language, and the mercy of God is shortened, I will now even say, cut off when innocent people are harmed. I have tried to show you that I don't aprove of people being abused in any way. I guess all my remarks on this subject have been ignored because I post with minister NTCC. If you will read my comments objectively, you will find that I have been very fair to both sides.
Read the first comment to the first thread on this blog. It was added to by Jeff, not attacked, or contradicted. He was answering a post made by me. If you don't think I'm being treated unfairly in this thread, think again.
Jeff said...
Sir, you have been very gracious on this blog and of that fact there is no doubt. I didn't understand where you were going with the story about windshield wiper fluid being mistaken for cool aide and how it related to the topic of discussion. If you really read what you wrote, you could see where one might not be able to understand the point that you were making.
With that being said you are absolutely welcome here and I don't want anyone to give you any other impression to include myself. I appreciate your candor and your views regardless of whether or not I agree with them. That is what makes the U.S. Great. Freedom of speech exists and you are welcome to express what you believe to be true on this blog. I will try to be unbiased and I ask that you do the same.
It takes a lot of nerve for the Minister to essentially step into what is legitimately a Lions Den here on this blog, and I respect him for continuing to maintain a his presents. I certainly hope that you don't feel that I have treated you unfairly Concerned Minister. I also hope that you respect our openness and the freedoms that exist here because I can’t even go on Mike Kekels blog and post a message. He is seriously into censorship which I absolutely don’t advocate. That has definitely not been my intent.
Now with that being said, I do not make apologies for the true statements that I make and my accurate analysis of the NTCCs misinterpretation of "Young woman being keepers at home". I respect your views but you must admit that I have made quite a compelling case to support my claim.
Respectfully Sir,
Jeff.
Concerned minister said...
I will say, just so you know, Rev. Oberhauser is in Washington right now and has been for at least a few months. I don't know why he is there, but he isn't pastoring right now.
Jeff said...
You know that Oberhauser was my pastor here in Columbus Ga. I personally think the NTCC leadership is using him as a scape goat. He may have not been a very proficient pastor but he wasn't even close to being as abusive as Mayers in Atlanta. Oberhauser wasn't abusive at all until he was told by the NTCC leadership that he was "Too Nice and that he had to get RUDE" The way I see it all Oberhauser was doing is following the directive given by one of his superiors. Oberhauser put that out openly in church one evening.
The NTCC leadership thought that he was being too nice and they wanted him to get ugly but it back fired on them because when he did it, people left his church.
Oberhauser is an Angel compared to Mayers in Atlanta and there have been complaints sent up to Graham about Mayers for at least the last 7 years and he hasn't gone anywhere. Other ministers have complained about Mayers; not just church members.
That dog don't hunt. Once again a double standard but that has become the standard and I'm sure it has been that way for quite some time. Like probably about 4 decades.
Jeff.
to casey and concerned minister:
You both stated that if you were in a leadership position in ntcc and you were made aware of abuses, that you would put an end to it.
Why do you suppose the current leadership in ntcc does nothing about abuses that are reported to them?
What is it that makes you both different from them?
just wondering, with all due respect
signed, polaris
Concerned said... "I guess all my remarks on this subject have been ignored because I post with minister NTCC."
Coward said... "I guess all my remarks to Concerned minister have been ignored because I post without minister NTCC."
Coward's Mommy said... "Ahhh, Coward, you poor, poor thing. Mamma will kiss it and make it all better for you."
Coward said... "Thank you mommy!"
Coward
Coward said...
Coward said... "I guess all my remarks to Concerned minister have been ignored because I post without minister NTCC."
Jeff said...
Coward:
You've got to give it to Concerned Minister. The majority of NTCC folks wouldn't even consider posting on a exNTCCers blog. They know that it is likely that they would just get jumped on.
Concerned Minister has been pretty good here and I respect the guy for having the backbone to come and post. You know how I feel about the NTCC. I have great disdain for the organization. The truth is I can't stand the NTCC because of the way the NTCC has abused and deceived so many people.
Having said that I actually believe the NTCC would be a better place if they had more people like Concerned Minister. Coward; you know that I have all a kinds of respect for you and I sincerely hope that you respect me for feeling that it is a good thing to have Concerned Minister on this blog. I also hope you understand when I say that a few of us have been a little hard on Concerned Minister. I want the guy to get a fair shake because I certainly didn't get one when I tried to post a message on Kekels blog about a week and a half ago.
Now Concerned Minister shouldn't have a get out of jail free card but you know what I am saying.
Concerned Minister brings a little "balance" to this blog. I can't stand blogs like Kekels that are totally one sided because Kekel doesn't believe in freedom of speech. His blog reminds me of Communist China where everyone is oppressed and everything written is censored.
It is a good thing to have Concerned Minister here.
Jeff.
Polaris,
The reason why complaints about abuse are ignored is because of Davis. If you really study out Davis' personality, he is a textbook narcissist. Here is a link that breifly describes narcissim. http://ezinearticles.com/?Narcissism-And-Its-Traits&id=919383
I suggest you do your own research.
Because of this personality of his, Davis always promotes those who are like him. He despises people who are not pushy-- he thinks they are weak.
Another point is that dealing with the abusive preacher would mean admitting there is a problem-- something Davis avoids at all costs. He does not admit to mistakes, or that he doesn't have something under control. Almost without fail, if a person complains of verbal, emotional or spiritual abuse- it will be ignored and the victim blamed for being at fault. For example, telling the victim that they just need to "get saved", or "get the Holy Ghost" or need to "pray through". They don't want to admit or believe that there is a real problem. Or maybe they just don't care. I have alot of examples I want to share, but it will take time to put them together on paper.
I hope that answers the question.
Jeff, I appreciate your patience with me. I realize that many may not think of 'Coward' when they think about the friendliest person they know. (Insert bad testimony comment here) I accept all of the responsibility for that and I also apologize if I've offended anyone. I am capable of being nice if even for only short periods.
I believe you are sincere in your desire to get the truth out about NTCC and in your willingness to keep an open blog forum where anyone can come and "let it all out". As long as there are people, like you, who are passionate about these things, then many people will escape the clutches of "the" NTCC.
It is difficult for me to say that I will make a sincere attempt to 'tone it down' with regards to the Concerned minister - I don't want to lie. However, i don't want to show you any disrespect either and you are the moderator of this blog. So, in respect for you Jeff, I will endeavor to be a little bit kinder and gentler - though I do not believe I have been abusive to his (Concerned Minister) person but rather to the organization that he continues to defend while distancing himself from the admittedly "abusive NTCC pastors".
To me, NTCC and abuse go hand-in-hand (i.e. they are inseperable). It (abuse) is what is continually propogated from Davis on down the NTCC chain of command.
Sadly, I cannot make the statement that I was "never" abusive or hypocritical while in NTCC. I can only, now, look back and ask God to forgive me for endeavoring to live according to NTCC standards instead of His. As time permits and God allows, those whom I have offended and wronged deserve and will get an apology from me personally.
Do I completely blame NTCC???? Pretty much! However, I'm not asking NTCC to apologize to those whom I have wronged as a result of their teaching. So, I guess I am accepting some of the blame for not having enough common sense to know that I was being brainwashed.
The adage comes to mind, "Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice (actually it was for several years) shame on me."
I put a lot of trust in those men who said they were godly but have proven themselves hypocrites. I forsook as much of me as I possibly could to imbue myself with the teaching of NTCC. But there were those "little flags" that kept popping up in my mind telling me that things I was witnessing in NTCC were not correct (Tithe bashing, Holiness bashing etc...). However, I just convinced myself that if Davis teaches it, it's got to be the way that it is. If Kekel says so, then it must be so.
When Davis said, "Most people need a computer like they need two extra holes in their head", I said, "Amen!"
When Kekel said, "Some of you are selling God out for a secular endeavor.", I said, "Amen!".
What in the world makes people say "Amen" to such things?????
As a result, I developed a mindset that further propogated the teachings of NTCC.
I will say that many things that were taught bothered my conscience but I did my dead-level best to convince myself that "it was just the devil trying to sew discord in my heart" and that I just needed to "pray through"
After all, Davis said that he knew our hearts better than we did. Davis only had to talk to us for a few moments and he already knew more about ourselves than we knew.
I could continue to ramble on here but I won't for now.
Anyway, I'm saying these things because, the teaching of NTCC is to blame!
How can anyone who has ever been in NTCC, for any length of time, deny that the teachings of Davis, Kekel, et al, were and are considered worthy of "high regard" by those in NTCC?
However, when one breaks free from the mesmerizing spell, then all of a sudden, it was just an NTCC policy and not the Bible???? People were just too stupid to ask questions... blah...blah...blah.
To me, that is not just a river in Egypt; that is DENIAL. Anyone who even attempts to cover this up is a bold-faced liar.
For this reason, it galls me to see 'Concerned minister', who is undoubtedly someone of NTCC notoriety and in NTCC leadership (i.e. a board member) putting on a facade as a 'nice guy' who has never taken part in any of the typical NTCC behavior himself. It just ain't so - Joe (sorry, it rhymed and I thought it was funny)!
Then, to hear him (Concerned) complain about this blog not being fair is ridiculous, in my opinion. He says he's been attacked. Where? What was the attack? Please point out which words you feel are confrontational!
If he wanted, what he thinks is, fair, he should go to Kekel's blog. I hear it's sunshine, fairness and blessings all day long over there. But over here in the land of Nod, it's partly cloudy and things are unfair. Boo-hoo!
Again, I apologize if that sounds harsh but they are my thoughts in earnest.
Don't get me wrong, I like having Concerned here too! I am hoping that he will try to "clarify" whatever it is he's come here to clarify. I hope he continues posting and reading here and on other 'unfair' blogs for as long as he wants to. If this isn't a question and answer session with Concerned in the 'Answer' seat, then please, someone let me know!
Don't let me continue asking questions that will never get answered!
Sincerely,
Coward
Coward,
I couldn't have said it better myself.
One thing I would like to add-- I like to study debate tactics for some strange reason, and ntcc defenders always use them. For example, you ask a legitimate question, which only requires a yes, no, or simply explanation. Instead you get a paragraph full of double-speak, but no answer to the question. This is classic political tactics and classic ntcc tactics.
I asked 3 simply questions earlier today about abuse. So far no answer. I hope that someone from ntcc will answer them-- but I'm not holding my breath.
Amen brother!
Coward
Wait a minute, that didn't sound right. (I used to say Amen to Davis too - yikes!)
I should have said, I agree with you completely!
Coward
Coward said...
I believe you are sincere in your desire to get the truth out about NTCC and in your willingness to keep an open blog forum where anyone can come and "let it all out". As long as there are people, like you, who are passionate about these things, then many people will escape the clutches of "the" NTCC.
Jeff said...
My friend; make no mistake; I have verbally attacked more NTCCers on more occasions than I can remember. I have probably been one of, if not the harshest critique of these NTCC guys whenever they put one key stroke on ANY of these blogs. I often have been know to jump all over them and many have thought of me as a loose canon.
I don't want to moderate anything here. I just kind of like old Concerned Minister for whatever reason and I figured I would do my good deed and take up for the fellow a little bit when he was feeling put out.
Coward you have seen my posts. When I go after one of these NTCCers I don't pull any punches or hold back at all and you know why? Even though two wrongs don't make a right,they never held back when they thought it was cool to blast people like my wife right in front of everyone with no justification what so ever. I regret allowing that abusive stuff to continue as long as it did and now it is my turn to fire back and I don't figure you should do any different. Some of the NTCCers flat out make me mad and I don't have to put up with their garbage anymore so I just let em have it.
Now I have read Old Concerned Ministers posts pretty closely and he seems like a pretty good guy. He has admitted that there are a lot of problems in the NTCC.
I am not patronizing you Coward but when I read your posts I realize that you and I are from the same cloth.
Buddy, I'll talk to you later. Oh by the way, do you know Casey? He is a great guy and a real good friend of mine. We talk with each other all the time. When Casey gets rich one day he is going to adopt me, either that or get me a better job than the one that I have. Casey came by my house and we went down in the woods next to my house and did a little target practice with my 40 cal. Never know when a stray soul winner might aimlessly wander on my property talking about if I died, do I know where I would spend eternity.
When they see me come out of the woods with a gun in my hand I don't know if where "I" spend eternity is going to be of much a concern to them anymore.
Just a joke. Don't anyone take me seriously. I would probably invite them into my house for dinner so that we could argue for a while.
Just another joke. Not serious. LOL. Seriously; I would kindly ask them to leave and I certainly wouldn't put up with them telling me I needed to get saved.
Hopefully I will get to see Casey again sometime soon. Hint, hint.
Take care,
Jeff
Jeff,
When I heard of Rev. Oberhauser being abusive, I couldn't imagine that being the case. It is not something that comes natural to him. I understand a little more since you said he was directed to be "rude."
It also helps me understand a little more about the culture of abuse that has been and is being formed in many of the NTCC churches. We are told that if a person gets saved, they will just naturally be inclined to be and do certain things. However, I am inclined to believe that the very people telling us this don't believe it themselves bacause if they did, they wouldn't feel the need to harp on it every service. If, for example, a person becomes a soul winner the moment they get saved, and the church members are not soul winning, then, either they are not saved, or the pastor has discouraged them to the point they no longer are inspired to soul win. In which case, the pastor has to options: 1. pray and ask God to help him lead them to salvation, 2. change his method of "inspiration."
Also Jeff, I appreciate your kind words.
Casey,
I honestly never heard a word about why you left. All I knew was that I stopped seeing you in service at Graham. I never knew you personally. It could be that they mentioned something about you, but I don't remember hearing it.
Oops! forgot to sign off the previous post.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned Minister said...
Also Jeff, I appreciate your kind words.
Not a problem Concerned Minister. It's good to have you here.
Jeff.
Concerned,
I left ntcc from many reasons. I was in ntcc from 1982-2006. I want to address this in detail soon, but I will say that it was a cumulation of different factors that occured over many years. I had dedicated my entire life to ntcc. I gave up my future and my desires to be a minister with ntcc. But, in the end it became very apparent to me that the leaders just didn't care. They didn't care about me, my family or all the years of faithful service I had given them. It was very hard to leave --and I put it off for a long time, because I had invested so many years in the org-- but there comes a time when you have to say, enough is enough, I refuse to give even one more day to people who don't care (despite their words), who promote abusive people, and who love money more than souls.
Two of my best friends were Jim McKay and Reginald Terry. We all were in the Army together in the 80's. I still love those guys.
Concerned said...
"I guess it is all those years in NTCC under abusive pastors that rubbed off on you guys?"
Yup! And that's why when we left, all of the abuse taking place in NTCC miraculaously stopped, huh Mr. board member??
Coward
Casey stated on previous post:
"I left ntcc from many reasons. I was in ntcc from 1982-2006. I want to address this in detail soon, but I will say that it was a cumulation of different factors that occured over many years".
Well, I left NTCC for many reasons. I was in NTCC from 1994 - 2004. I gave the BEST years of my life to this group. Looking back, it did make the time go by fast, that was the only good thing about it.
It is funny how God drew me into this group to meet my future wife, and then drew us BOTH out of it!!
BRO Johnson
Just a comment,
Rev J.C. MacDonald made a simular statement, rather "Just of the same old six and seven". How ironic. He was, and still is, in my opinion a minister in the NTCC org that God has blessed through his, not NTCC's ministry. He would be better off leaveing NTCC and starting his own ministry.
Love will ultimately win out over NTCC.
Bro Johnson
Bro. Johnson,
I'd like to know which Bro. Johnson you are-- there were a few of you. :) I have very mixed emotions about ntcc. I also gave the BEST years of my life. It's scary when I think of it-- a quarter of a century!! Yikes. And people who know me know I was faithful, obedient servant of God and ntcc. On one hand, they wasted my time, wasted my talents, kept me in poverty, and harmed me emotionally and spiritually. I despise them for it-- which is why I have decided to come out and tell my story. (I also posted as CTYankee on Factnet).
But, on the other hand, I met my lovely wife (whom I have been married to for 20 years), made friends with alot of great people (who i never would have met), and learned how to survive in tough times. I was joking with Vic lately that this economy doesn't affect us, because we learned how to live on $1 for a whole year!! lol. Vic's view of our time in ntcc has actually helped me cope with the whole situation.
But the bad definitely outweighed the good. It's like someone who went through a war or a tornado saying they survived and am stronger for it. But who wants to go through all that? No way. I've likened ntcc to a group of people who rescue survivors from a sinking ship and then enslave them into hard bondage. I'm glad for the salvation, but the slavery we can do without.
Almost everyone I have talked to who left ntcc have prospered and live happy lives. But there are those sad few, who can never get over the emotional and spiritual damage done by ntcc preachers, and now live out their lives wounded and struggling to cope with the damage. It's very sad.
Casey, You said Rev. McKay was one of your best friends. He was my pastor for a while and is a great example of a non abusive NTCC minister. I never had Rev. Terry for a pastor, so I don't know how he was. Bro. Johnson mentioned Rev. MacDonald. I also have heard only good and positive things about him and his ministry.
It has been said that if a pastor in NTCC is not abusive toward their congregation, they get "jacked up" at conference. Maybe I just missed it, but I haven't found that to be the case. I'm not saying it's not the case, but I just haven't noticed it. I will be going to conference this time with my eyes and ears open for these things.
Normally, when I go to conference, I look forward to having a good time worshiping God and catching up on fellowship with old friends. I know some here may disagree with this, but I also look forward to hearing some encouraging messages. All in NTCC is not doom and gloom.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned,
You are completely correct-- not everything in ntcc is doom and gloom-- otherwise I wouldn't have stayed in as long as I did. I had some good times, heard some great sermons, had fun at conferences (I was the main drummer for 18 years), good fellowship, and experienced God. But, at the same time, there are just enough incidents of verbal abuse, strange rules, being jack-ed up, being taken advantage of, etc. to make you question if you are in the right group, but not enough to make you leave. There are alot of great men and women in ntcc that are not abusive-- infact the majority in ntcc are not-- but the preachers in leadership positions tend to be either abusive of their power; or not abusive, but condoning or turning a blind eye to abuses. There are some really good, spiritual pastors in ntcc: Tim Young, Tim Hasty, Reginald Terry, Jim McKay, Bro. Armor, and tons of others. So I'm not saying everyone is bad. My first 2 years in ntcc were in the Servicemen's Home and it was a great experience-I had 2 good pastors: Mike Marshall and Eli Gesang.
It is entirely possible for a church member who has a good pastor-- like McKay-- to have a very good experience in ntcc. Others like Jeff Collins, who had an abusive pastor like Mayers-- had a very negative experience. But overall, it isn't until you become a minister that ntcc decides that they own you. I know, I know, you voluntarily serve them, and it isn't always apparant that they are taking advantage of people.
As for being jacked-up for being nice-- I don't think it is so much being jacked-up, but rather a pressure to conform to being a certain way, whether that is your personality or not. It is
"implied" that you are letting God down if you aren't pushy. I also believe that as time goes by, and Davis is less involved, that things are improving. I don't know if you know it, but being the main drummer, I spent alot of time around Rev. Kekel. He always treated me good, and I really liked him. But, I do have some issues with him-- mostly the fact that I think he and his wife are way too materialistic and concerned about wealth, and his double-standards. I don't know how they see others suffering and don't lift a finger to help. I couldn't be like that, but what can you do. But, I will say, it hurt me very much when Kekel lied about me when I left, which really shocked me. God and all the angels know it was a flat out lie-- that I had stolen or misappropriated money sent to us in Puerto Rico. It wasn't true. But that is their main tactic when someone leaves-- to float a "rumor" as to why they left-- (i.e. sin, wanting the world, money, rebellious, on and on). They don't want anyone to believe that maybe they left, because they really were treated bad and got tired of it. I'll share examples later. Gotta go.
Casey Hayes said...
You are completely correct-- not everything in ntcc is doom and gloom-- otherwise I wouldn't have stayed in as long as I did.
Jeff Collins said...
Great post Casey. Now; we are constantly being accused of being negative and one sided; never having anything good to say about the NTCC. That post was about as balanced as they get and notice the only thing that I reposted was complimentary.
Our blog is not a one sided blog like Mike Kekels and anyone reading this blog should be able to see that we are just some straight up guys and gals. You don't get any straighter than Casey Hayes. You wonder why I keep singing his praises? Because Casey is such a good man and if you know him you couldn't help but but like him. Thats right Casey I am patronizing you and I don't want to hear about it.
I appreciate you my friend and than is not just some old NTCC jargon. That's being real.
Your good friend,
Jeff
Please read these articles on Church Abuse. They are describing ntcc.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/articles.html
http://www.batteredsheep.com/pdf/think02.pdf
Question for anyone:
Why is it that when someone has spent many years in NTCC, such as Casey or Jeff, and decides that it is time for them to move on with their life, for whatever reason, the departed individual's name becomes a taboo among the NTCC crowd?
I have never heard anyone in NTCC leadership ever say something like, "Well, brother, we are sad to see you go but we understand that you have to go where God wants you to go. Give us a call and let us know how things are going, we'll be praying for your continued success ...blah...blah...blah."
I was in NTCC for several years and there was never anything good said about those that departed - except to their face when forced to interact - like at the store etc...
For example I never ever heard, "Hey, I saw brother so and so and he's doing well for himself. He's a minister with another church and is happy...blah...blah...blah."
Instead it was always negative like, "Oh, I saw brother so and so and his wife was wearing pants and had chopped of her hair. They had joined a compromised church. He had a beard and blah...blah...blah."
Or, "I heard so and so got cancer (or insert something bad) and isn't doing well. God could heal them if they would get right... blah...blah...blah."
Why does departure from NTCC cost the departed virtually everything they have invested? (i.e. friends, family, respect, reputation, testimony, etc...)
Jeff,Casey or anyone that has left NTCC - Did you have people that loved you bidding you "God speed", or was it completely negative and condemnatory?
I've had NTCCer's be nice to me to my face but heard they had trashed me behind my back and accused me of being outside of God's will when in the company of other NTCCer's.
Does NTCC share any success stories about ANYONE who has left NTCC?
I know of other groups who still hold strong relationships with those who were once a part of their specific group and they even get together and fellowship from time to time. There is no animosity or hard feelings between them. They both mutally agree to wish eachother God's best, even if it means that they aren't part of the same group.
Where is this type of spirit in NTCC?
I'm reminded of when Jesus instructed John not to forbid others who were casting out devils in Jesus name because they weren't directly following Jesus and the 12. But Jesus said, Forbid not because he that is not against us is for us.
NTCC forces people on both sides to be against one another because of their condmnatory mantra. In fact, contact between the departed is highly discouraged and openly preached against!
If I can no longer be a minister in NTCC because I like facial hair which doesn't comply with NTCC ministerial regulations, why can't I be blessed as a minister of another group who does not necessitate such a standard?
There are many more examples that could be shared here but I will refrain for now.
Please help me to understand.
Coward
You know the thing that gets me the most is that wherenver somebody leaves is because they misapropriate the money sent to them or because they wanted money more than God etc., but what about the org? rwd said it to the top of his lungs: "without money you can't do anything" They are the ones that are all about money. What if the missionaries are given money? They probably have given more money to the org.
I remember hearing about you bro. Hayes how that you had left because you wanted money more than to do the will of God.
Just ridiculous.
I have alot to say about my stay in Puerto Rico, but I'll give you the highlights here. First, I sold my house (the ONLY house I've ever been able to buy), sold my cars, and got rid of all my stuff in order to go to Puerto Rico!! Rev. Olson told us we could only take out suitcases. So I sold or gave away everything I could, but still we had alot of things we needed. I ended up spending $5000 of my own money to ship what little we had left to Puerto Rico.
In Puerto Rico, I could not find a job. I didn't speak Spanish. We lived in a ghetto, above someone else in a rundown apartment that was big enough for 2 people, had NO car, and NO furniture. My wife and I slept on a very old mattress on the ground, and my kids slept on cots. Our boxes were stacked all around us. In the 3 years we lived in PR we had NO-- repeat NO- furniture! I'd like to see Kekel be willing to do that.
The church didn't offer to help initially. After sharing with Rev. Olson our plight, he got back to us to tell us that the church would give us $600/ month-- BUT, it wasn't coming from World Missions (because Davis doesn't consider PR a mission work. To him it's just another state like Washington). My wife is from PR, so her family is watching all this unfold.
I finally found a job, but made $200 or so a week. (When I left PR Bro. Cespedes was making about $100-200 week!!) After a year we finally found another place to live. Rent was $800/month (very cheap for PR, unless you want to get shot at). We had some bills we brought with us. I made $300/week-- so do the math. The $600 barely covered our rent for the month. Food is expensive and there are no sales. But Rev, Olson made it clear that we needed to go start a church. Minimum rent I could find, for a run-down tiny spot was about $1000/mo. I'm telling you-- you run the numbers and we didn't have half the money we needed to get anything accomplished. So I am thankful for what they send, BUT it was like giving someone $1 for the bus and it costs $2. I also new that they would always use that money AGAINST us when we gfot back-- because that is the way Davis works. He gives you a little bit of help, but not enough-- and then brags about all the help he gave someone, but they just were not thankful. It's quite a racket!! I'll share more details later.
"Bro. Johnson,
I'd like to know which Bro. Johnson you are-- there were a few of you. :)"
Well, brother Hayes, my tenure runs 1/2 years at Fort Campbell from 94 - 96, 6 years in Korea, from 96 - 02, 1 1/2 years at Fort tiley from 02 - 04, Korea again from 04 - 08. I am currently at Fort Jackson, SC 08 - UTC.
I'm the tall white guy with glasses, brown hair, blue eyes and big smile.
I have always been the song leader if that helps, learned alot from others along the way.
Bro Johnson
Concerned Minister,
First of all I appreciate your presence on this blog. I wish more NTCC-ers would post instead of broad brushing everyone.
I was not exaggerating about that Pastor who would run off our contacts. It was unbelivably frustrating. It was like the Pastor and the Devil were having an anti-soulwinning contest or something. Of course it makes perfect sense now that I found out the he is in HOP.
Waitng to Exhale
To answer someone's question about whether anyone ever left ntcc on good terms-- the answer is a resounding NOOOO!! Ntcc believes that they are the ONLY church in this entire world with the right message. They may acknowledge that there is another church, somewhere, that is pleasing to God-- but they are the ONLY church living 100% according to the will of God. Because of this, you cannot simply leave and attend another church, because doing so means you must be going to an inferior church that definitely is compromising, because ntcc is the apex of holiness, according to them. On top of that, leaving ntcc means, to them, that you are leaving GOD! Now that's a pretty tall statement, but that is what they think. This is drilled into our heads, and is one of the reasons why people stick it out in ntcc years after that decide they do not want to be there anymore. They are convinced (wrongly) that leaving ntcc is leaving God. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But, keep in mind, that this teaching is listed as a cult tactic. Infact, if you study the top ten cult tactics, ntcc is guilty of 8-9. So either ntcc is a cult, or they are a Christian church that practices cult tactics. On Factnet, Kekel stated that cults use their tactics, not the other way around. That was a convaluted argument if there ever was one. Cult tactics are the complete opposite of what God teaches in His word. Anybody ever read the Fruits of the Spirit in Galatians? For those of you in ntcc, ask yourself, does ntcc really practice and teach the fruits of the Spirit? When is the last time you saw Davis practicing such things as gentleness and goodness? How about meekness? Davis doesn't know what the word means.
In all the years I was in ntcc I never could understand why Davis was so gruff to anyone, rarely smiled, and wasn't humble. It didn't add up. But since I was taught that to think bad about him I would be struck by lightening or something, I always thought I was the problem. Now I know that he is the problem. He is not an example of Jesus. Can you imagine Jesus jacking people up from the pulpit over something tiny? Or blasting someone for something they could have spoken to you privately about? Or living like a millionaire while his disciples were struggling to feed themselves?
So to answer the question- No one has ever left ntcc with their blessings. Everyone who leaves ntcc is despised and hated, and most are attacked. Almost all of them have a lie spread around as to why they left.
Casey, thanks for taking the time to help me understand - even though you don't know me - but you do.
I came to the same conclusion as well, but, having a variety of people in congruence on the matter helps highlight the SYSTEMIC PROBLEM WITH ABUSE and NTCC.
A question that no one in NTCC will address directly, even though they may agree that it takes place and feel it is wrong!
No one in NTCC seems to want to talk about SPECIFIC problems and where they originate. Rather, they (NTCCers) admit that problems do exist but can't seem to figure out where they originated or why they exist.
I believe the reason for this is in their refusal to look at the organization they support and the men they are told to honor as if they were God. Isn't this what the Catholic Church was and is all about???? Looking to men instead of God.
Davis simply reinvented the Catholic Church - not Catholic as in "universal" but Catholic as in oppressive, condemnatory and fear-stirring in order to coerce chronic membership and increase wealth under the guise of "seing people get saved".
Coward
I wanted to move this thread to the top. It is still receiving the most comments.
Coward: It was good to here from you. I enjoyed your post and especially the last paragraph. You hit the nail right on the head in my opinion.
Jeff.
"I gave the BEST years of my life to this group." Bro Johnson
"I also gave the BEST years of my life." Casey Hayes
Don't believe it for a second, guys. Your best years are yet to come, now that you've departed from what was only holding you back. Mark my words, the blessings are coming.
Wow, From what I'm seeing and hearing NTCC really stands behind their Pastors.......
Just as far behind them as they can get!!
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