Originally posted on 3/13/2009
Thread #5 New Testament Christian Church pastors are some of the worse leaders that I have ever known. The reason I can say this is because I have spent enough time in the Army and I have attended enough leadership schools to be able to tell the good from the bad.
There are three basic types of leaders. Delegative, Participative, and Authoritarian. At different times, all good leaders possess any one of the three leadership styles or all three put together. A breakdown in effective leadership occurs when an individual in authority primarily uses only one of the three types of leadership styles on a regular basis.
I could give examples of, and discuss all three leadership styles, but for the purpose of this thread I am only going to focus on one. The worst one of the three for a leader to use "exclusively" is the authoritarian style.
Unfortunately the regular, exclusive use of the authoritarian style within the NTCC always results in poor moral and the development of subordinates who never learn to consistently make sound decisions on their own. Authoritarian NTCC leaders regularly abuse their church members and subordinate ministers and this practice is degrading, extremely harmful and destructive.
New Testament Christian Church pastors from the bottom all the way up to RWD use the authoritarian style of leadership almost exclusively. I've witnessed this occurrence from numerous NTCC pastors. The authoritarian says, "it's my way or the highway." What makes an authoritarian even worse is that almost all are extremely insecure individuals. A person who feels "secure" in their position of authority does not feel the need to remind you of their title or rank and they realize that the decisions they consider making are not always the best or even good at all. They know that you know that they are in charge and they don’t have to remind you of that fact. Someone who is an "insecure", authoritarian leader, always feels the need to remind his subordinates of his or her title. Examples: "I'm the pastor", "I was here first", "I started this church", "I was here when you got here and I'll be here when you leave, if you don't like it, there is the door", "I'm in charge of this Platoon", "I run this Battalion".
No kidding Einstein.
I person who feels secure in their position of authority welcomes suggestions from his or her subordinates and often puts the suggestions into practical use. An insecure authoritarian leader resents suggestions from subordinates and generally won’t even consider what has been suggested and in the process feels the need to remind you that he is the pastor or Sergeant or whatever is applicable. Often what is the result? Authoritarians make decisions that are bad because they won't consult their people and they suck at effective leadership.
Examples: Adolph Hitler would not listen to his Generals. Bad decision. First Gulf War; Saddam Hussein would not listen to his Generals. Bad decision. RWD would not listen to his proverbial Generals when they tried to warn him about Denis. THE SPLIT. I know for a fact that some did try and tell RWD about Denis. That is an insecure authoritarian and a bad decision maker from a leadership standpoint. Pastors who will not even consider listening to advise offered by church members are insecure, authoritarians who constantly make bad decisions, destroy moral, create much hurt, and destroy folks lives at least temporarily and sometimes permanently.
Does any of this sound familiar?
Jeff
Various quotes from Davis
ReplyDelete“It does not matter how much you know, you have no right to rare up to an authority!”
“A man can’t assume a boss man attitude in a church as a pastor! That is contrary to what the Bible teaches us.”
Then, later in the same class Davis says the following:
“I do not have to keep brother Infausto happy, but brother Infausto has to keep me happy, because if he makes me unhappy for any length of time, he (Infausto) will be looking for another job.”
“Preachers are the hardest people in the world to work with.”
“You don’t deserve to be happy. I don’t think Jesus was too happy when they beat and spat on Him and nailed Him to the cross. I don’t think He was happy while He was in hell for you and I.”
“The less your [congregation] members know about you, the better off you will be. Why would I say you should go out shopping with your members and spend money in front of them? They are going to find fault with you.”
“The Bible says you can’t rule the House of God unless you can rule your own family. You are the reason why your children are the way they are. A preacher’s kids can either make him or break him. The more members you get, the more you have to isolate your children.”
The above quotations are excerpts from some of the classes that Davis has taught to many NTCC subvertees throughout the last three decades. With teaching like that, it really is no wonder why the reports of abuse continue to roll in.
Something is definitely lacking! -
The typical NTCC subverted mind thinks the following:
"I just don't understand why all these abuses are taking place.
It just can't be that nice, nice man Davis...."
Whatever!
Coward
Great post Coward. What else can be said? You hit the nail right on the head. "Authoritarian."
ReplyDeleteI like the way you stay on topic.
Respectfully,
Jeff
My word - you could almost take every single quote and dispute everything about it! The only quote I want to get mad about at the moment is the one about isolating the kids.
ReplyDelete“The Bible says you can’t rule the House of God unless you can rule your own family. You are the reason why your children are the way they are. A preacher’s kids can either make him or break him. The more members you get, the more you have to isolate your children.”
What on earth does this even mean?? I honestly believe it was comments like these why many people have left the church - it is obvious that Davis doesn't think children are a blessing from God... "they can make him or break him"? Hmmm.... can I go smack him upside the head now? I know, I know... so not a christian attitude, but I really hope that before he dies he is able to see that he makes no sense whatsoever when he tries to make something a policy, or rule, or whatever they are calling it nowadays, and call it biblical when there is no biblical standpoint, or even a jumping off place? I can understand how things can be misconstrued by interpretation, however wrong it may be. However... I would REALLY like to know exactly what scripture he used as a jumping off place for stating that kids make or break a ministry, or that the more members you have in your ministry, the more you have to isolate your kids.
One thing about NTCC is that kids are pushed to the wayside so often, it's often heart wrenching. I remember one minister who believed children should stay with their parents at all times during church (no matter their age) and that they should not converse with the members. WHY?! What is the point? If you isolate your kids too much, you end up like me at the age of 18, sitting on my rear with no clue of what I was going to do with my life, and no real initiative, because self-reliance is one thing parents in NTCC neglect to teach their children. How to be good obedient wives, yes. How to contribute to society without your husband's help? No. Absolutely not. Who wants a woman who can make their own way in life without a man's help? What, are we in the 17th century again? I'd better check my closet for petticoats and corsets.
Hmm... so much for staying on track. Jeff - maybe you could do a post about how children are set up to fail in the real world by NTCC. Then I could rant and rave some more! lol
jm
jm said...
ReplyDeleteOne thing about NTCC is that kids are pushed to the wayside so often, it's often heart wrenching.
Jeff said...
That is so true. It has to be terrible for a child to be completely pushed aside by one or both of their parents because the child does not want to remain a part of the NTCC.
Parents: The NTCC will write you completely off if you ever disagree with the NTCC leadership. Your children on the other hand love you. Some of you parents are not even as loyal to your own kids as RWD is to his. He will allow every rule in the whole church to be broken for the sake of his daughter and son in law. He doesn't push Tanya to the side like some of you do. Believe me you will regret it one day.
Great post jm. I feel bad about what happened to you in the NTCC.
The strange thing about starting this new blog is the number of NTCC horror stories that I am exposed to now that I previously wouldn't have known about. People are calling me and it is quite sad.
Keep your head up jm.
Sincerely,
Jeff.
yup my kids started to hate me because I was doing "church" stuff more then I was spending time with my kids. After the "church" stuff was done. all I ever had time for was getting food on the table and cleaning my house and doing the normal chores a stay at home mom does.
ReplyDeleteAlso you can raise a kid in a good loving home and that does not garuntee they are going to grow up right. My sisters and I were raised in a good home, loving parents, Christians, etc. Life was not at all bad in the least growing up. I believe we were raised right. But my sisters both have made bad decisions. they do not reflect at all the way they were raised. And no my parents were never in NTCC.
Usually kids that are raised in an Authoritarian type home. Either grow up to be mean ugly people or shy keep to themselves type people. Unless God gets ahold of them and they are able to heal from it.
But even those raised in a good home can grow up and be messed up because of decisions they make. Raised right or not. How you turn out as an adult is totally up to you not how your parents raised you.
Angie - you said: "But even those raised in a good home can grow up and be messed up because of decisions they make."
ReplyDeleteI really have to agree with you there. It doesn't matter how loving the home, or even really what kind of home you are raised in. Children are going to go through a rebellious stage - if not while still a child, then at some point as an adult, and some of them make some really messed up decisions. I know I did. Even while trying to maintain my Christianity, I made some really poor choices. And I was raised with plenty of love, albeit quite a bit of discipline too, and with very strict biblical guidlines to follow (along with some not so biblical but equally strict "policies" to follow).
My dad's parents, to my knowledge, raised all the kids equally. My dad and a couple of my uncles are pretty well off, as far as independance and good choices go, while I have one uncle who is homeless and hooked on multiple drugs, and has been arrested multiple times. Just goes to show - each kid has their own quirks and personality traits, and no matter how strictly you raise them, many will go off to make horrid choices.
Wow I rambled... sorry about that!
jm
JM,
ReplyDeleteI have a rambling problem too. In typing or on the phone. Not a phone person but once you get me started I don't shut up LOL. Oh unless the kids decide I exsist LOL! Or of they are at school and I am on the phone someone almost always calls on the other line or someone else in this house decides they need to talk to me (either ask help, question, etc) and they can't wait until I get off the phone. Then I usually have to cut the call short.
Got to cut this reply short though. Homework and laundry be calling my name!
Angie
ha spelled a word wrong and forgot to add something.
ReplyDeleteNo one in this house seems to know I am around if I am just vegging out(which I don't usually have much time for). But as soon as I go to do something all the sudden "MOM, Angie, Wifey, etc. I need help, can you?,"
And when I ask them to hold on while I finish what I am doing (if I don't finish what I am doing before I go on to the next thing I usually forget to finish since people are almost always distracting me with this or that) they either breathe down my neck until I get done or they demand I stop what I am doing RIGHT NOW because IT CAN'T WAIT! And 95% of the time it isn't something that warrents and emergency DROP what your doing kind of thing.
(wish blogger made it so you could edit your comments)
Well I gotta get going for sure now.
Have a blessed day,
Angie
"Some of you parents are not even as loyal to your own kids as RWD is to his".
ReplyDeleteBrother Jeff, how true. My wife often reminds me when I was under the NTCC spell that I was more devoted to NTCC than to HER, which, in reality should be the opposite.
I thank God everyday that my wife did not leave me due to my affair with the church.
In our early years of marriage, there was no substance, no honeymoon, we went our seperate ways with regards to church. I went to NTCC, she went somewhere elese.
The funny thing is, IF the pastor really cared about my situation he would have counseled me and advised I take time out from church to mend my marriage. That never happended. It was, "How many people did you bring out to Church this week"?
The only good thing that came out of NTCC was that I met my wife there. That was of God, for then God took us out of the Church, another miracle!!
Bro Johnson
That is one of my biggest regrets about being in ntcc, that I put the church before my family. But we were taught that way. How many times did we hear the scripture where Jesus said if you don't love Him more than your family, you weren't worthy of heaven? But there came a time, some years into ntcc, when I began to see divorces, bitter children, and other problems; where I said, I will not lose my family to the church-- and I began to put my family first. Because of that I still have my wife and kids 20 years later.
ReplyDeleteBRO Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI received this lenghty e-mail from Mr. kekel, thought I would share this with you and your blog readers. I will also post this on the other Blog as well. You all know him better than I, is he speaking the truth??
BRO Johnson
(FROM MC KEKEL)
Hello SFC Johnson,
I may not cover all your concerns this time, but here’s a start. I must say that I deeply regret the negative experiences you and your wife have had within NTCC. I pray that you as a leader of men can understand, that not all people understand or adhere to what they are taught. My hope is that, by publishing my blog, I can help make others aware of what is actually taught at NTCC, and what is and is not expected of our ministers. Thus people will be able to distinguish NTCCʼs policies from its doctrine. Also, my hope is that my readers will be able to compare and contrast said information with their own experiences in the churches, and be able to report any misconduct.
My reply to your questions concerning my son playing sports is already on my blog, I think that I stated my reasons, and the churchʼs stand on this quite plainly. Hereʼs the dictionary definition of lascivious (adjective) (of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire : he gave her a lascivious wink. I donʼt think football pants apply here, because they are all padded, cover the knees and do not stimulate sexual desire. (Of course there are people who find feet stimulating for that matter, but those kinds of problems are within them.) When he played basketball (over three years ago, and people knew about it) he was covered below the knee with baggy pants and wore a shirt with sleeves under the tank top.
As for Rev. Davis’ degrees, I’ve never asked him about them. He has never touted them, and they really have never mattered to me. His life and work are all the proof of his ministry that I need.
As pertaining to the REV XYZ) departure from NTCC, I have no answer for you as he/they never told us why; maybe you could ask him, and let me know. He makes it appear that he’s waiting on the church, but that’s not the case. Iʼve talked with Rev. Mac Donald at length, and he agreed that you did support the work there in Seoul, and further stated that the money you gave was used for the work there at the time you gave it. If, as you stated it was given as unto the Lord, then rest assured that God is not unrighteous to forget your labor of love, He has a record of all that you did for and to Him, and will reward you accordingly. BTW, itʼs in the works right now to re-open the church in Seoul Korea this spring, if it is the will of the Lord.
You stated that ʻdrovesʼ are leaving the church and organization and quite frankly, though many love to say that, it is not true. I know where that misinformation comes from. Those who say such things remind me of the invasion of Iraq, when Sadaam Husseinʼs Officer publicly declared that they had the Americans surrounded, at the very moment Saddamʼs statue was being pulled down. People come and go in all churches, thatʼs to be expected. After everyone had walked away from Him, Jesus had to ask the disciples “will ye go away also?” The Lord is still saving, healing, filling with the Holy Ghost and calling men and women to the ministry. New churches are being opened, and those churches that had been damaged by the HOP break off are being, or have been restored. NTCC has not changed itʼs adherence to the Biblical teachings of separation from the world, and of a Spirit filled, crucified life for all believers.
The soul-winning program taught and implemented here in Graham, WA is nothing like you had under Hanna. He did what R. Denis told him to do, even back then. We have a two-hour soul-winning on Saturday, sometimes 3 for door-knocking days. That doesn’t include travel, but still it is short. It is made known that this is voluntary for church members, but students and ministers of course, are expected to be there. There is a voluntary (for all) soul-winning on weeknights in which a small group participates. We do not practice public humiliation of people for soul-winning inefficiencies or participation. The team leaders are restricted to this, and constantly reminded not to guilt trip people into giving more than 3 hours of the 168 hours in a week. Soul-winning should be an act of love for God, not an Egyptian slave-drive.
Donʼt you find it interesting that Eric Hanna under whom you suffered such
mistreatment, is no longer with us? The Organization would never have condoned the
behavior you described. As under shepherds under the great Shepherd we will give an
account of our works. The NTCC Seminary believes and teaches that the ministry is a
sacred trust, and by definition is a life of service to God and people. Your issues are
with Eric Hanna and his wife not NTCC. Did you ever report their behavior to a board
member or overseer? Your descriptions of child abuse are appalling and if they are going on should be reported with names and details of these occurrences. The Seminary and Pastor Davis has always taught that a Pastor should never discipline someone else’s child, and that even step parents should not physically discipline a step child, so if youʼve witnessed behavior different from this, it isnʼt condoned by the Organization.
Another of your issues was concerning a Tithe receipt with which to claim a charitable deduction on your income taxes; According to the IRS tax code, it is not required that churches provide receipts, but may if people request them, and so they are routinely provided for our members, but Iʼm not sure why you didnʼt receive one, did you ever ask?
Anyway, I don’t know how you know Bro. Briggs, but that’s not the one I know. Rev. Mac Donald is indeed a good man, and we were in the dorm together in bible school. I’ve never seen anything in him other than Christianity, and he has a heart of gold. He is a better example of what NTCC is all about. If you go by anything you read ‘you know where,’ you are sure to be misguided. I want to publish what is really taught at NTCC, and those who say it’s not true, have a right to their oblique views, but it’s still truth. It isn’t my fault that they can’t get things right and never even knew what they believed and why. Please don’t attribute to me, the violations of others, for I would never mistreat you. The posts to my blog which you made were startlingly offensive and rude, and my blog is not about all that, and I will not allow it, so that’s why I rejected them. I appreciate you having the willingness to sign your name though. I am only trying to help you through your problems here, and you must not let yourself stoop to the level of some ”for I perceive that they are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity.” (Acts 8:23)
In His Service,
MCK
Bro Johnson,
ReplyDeleteI would like to respond to some of the things in Kekels response. I also want to add that I worked closely with Rev. Kekel (mostly in the band)for 18 or so years. I have mixed emotions about him. He was always nice to me and I thought very highly of him. After I left and he began to lie about me I lost my respect for him. But I will say this, he always tries to come across as a reasonable, nice guy-- but what bothers me is how he refuses to admit that ntcc is to blame for anything, and that everyone that has left is "bitter". Notice how he says that people who leave ntcc are leaving "Him". He believes that leaving ntcc is leaving God, but I know many who left ntcc to get to God. He is trying to rewrite ntcc history.
First off, alot of pastors in ntcc are abusive and manipulative, because that is how Davis expects them to be. It isn't that they are renegade preachers who "aren't doing what they are told". They are doing exactly what they are told. On the other hand, there are many good pastors (like Armor, McKay and Hasty) who do not harm people, and their congregation is having a good experience in ntcc. I've heard RW say many times that "nice" preachers will never succeed in the work. I have also seem many times where a "good" pastor, became a "bad" pastor in order to please the leaders. Those of us who refused to be "bad" knew we would never be promoted, but it was OK with us.
As for Grant in sports-- my problem with that is NOT the clothes they wear (I don't believe football or even basketball gear is lacivious). The REAL issue is that none of our kids were allowed to play sports or be in the school band, because it was taught as "worldly", and "why don't you teach your kids to go soul-winning". That's the problem. They are rewriting history, refuse to apologize for it, and Briggs thinks we are stupid parents for obeying the rules. I think sports for kids is great. All ntcc has to do is apologize, say they were wrong, and we can all move on.
I don't know what went wrong with Eric Hannah. We were good friends and as far as I know he was a good guy. But, it is possible that he became a "bad" pastor. I talked to him personally a year ago, and he stated that he followed Dennis for about a month and then left, because he saw they were messed up. He is back to being his nice self, and has alot of regrets about the HOP affair. He does not regret leaving ntcc.
In conclusion, I do believe Kekel can be a nice person, and it is my hope and prayer that when Davis kicks the bucket he will change ntcc for good. I have seen him many times, I believe, as a sincerely humble person. One part of me really likes the guy, despite his lying about me. I have also seen him act arrogant and mean, especially when someone questions the church. He seems good, but hates those who have left and publicly told horror stories about ntcc. I really don't know what to think about him. I think he is in total denial about ntcc. I think he needs to acknowledge that ntcc has been a flawed church from the start, apologize for all the harm done, and stop the cult tactics--but that will not happen until Davis is gone-- if ever.
I guess it may sound like a cliche but it is what it is and nothing will change because it will cease to be nttc if it changes.
ReplyDeleteJust my two cents.
xo
It's kind of ceasing to be NTCC right now as we speak. At least the way NTCC used to be. It's not getting better either. Just more hypocrisy and double standards.
ReplyDeleteJeff
Rw davis motto was,if folks DON'T HATE YOU. Then your doing something wrong.
ReplyDeleteSo as a preacher,Christian. Folks should hate you. Yeah,that is showing the love!
April
This kind of goes along the lines of leadership, which was what the original post was about... NTCC (like some other denominations) likes the idea of what is known as a monarchical bishop. This means ONE man is in CHARGE of the business (er.. i mean church). I have a copy of Eusebius' church history translated into english. He wrote a history of the church around the time of the Council of Nicaea (he probably wrote it around the late 3rd century and into the early 4th). The Introduction to this copy of his history of the church is done by a modern writer who has analyzed his version of the church's history and he found that in the early church, there really does not seem to be one man as a leader over each congregation, but there were presbyters in them, but it does not appear to be that there was one in charge of all. NTCC is not the only church to support the idea of one absolute authority in each church linked to an absolute authoritative individual who gets his orders directly from God. In Eusebius' day I guess, by that time they did operate that way, but my guess is that it is because Constantine was really in charge of the church at that time. It has been said that he sat on the throne of the church council in Nicaea, and it is intimated that Eusebius did not assume the bishoprick of the church in Antioch because, for one reason, Constantine did not want him to. So, I think this idea of kingly leadership in the church is just an example of the church becoming worldly and following the same pattern of worldly leadership, the likes of which Jesus told us was not the way it would be among us.
ReplyDeleteAlso, elders were selected, possibly voted on, possibly just picked, among the people who had been reached. Paul and Barnabas are said to have gone to visit the churches they had started and then they fasted and prayed and then they elected elders in them. The idea of importing elders from a ministry training center, in my opinion, is not the same as the example shown in the book of Acts. My belief is that Paul taught people and they taught others. He told Timothy as bishop of Ephesus to teach faithful men who will teach others. But in NTCC, if you want to teach others the simple message of salvation, you have to have a card in your wallet that you paid for after quitting your job and paying to travel to a boot camp for preachers.
In the early church, it seems that the affluent leaders were known by their literary contributions to the church and to the world. Now, theologians are made fun of in NTCC. They actually make fun of the idea of reading about them, and learning about the Bible on that sort of level. I think this leads to uneducated leaders, leaders that only know what was fed to them at their boot camp, hence the required reading: "The Greatest Salesman Ever" (or that Ever Lived" I may not have the title exactly right) "Seven Steps to Debt Free Prosperity"; "Who Moved My Cheese" -all basically secular in nature. So, people go to these churches thinking, my pastor is an authority on the Bible- HAAAAAA! Not Quite. In my opinion, he is probably something more like a trained manager, than a true prophet of God.
Kristofer wrote...
ReplyDeleteNTCC is not the only church to support the idea of one absolute authority in each church linked to an absolute authoritative individual who gets his orders directly from God.
Jeff said...
You're right. There are other churches such as the Catholics who feel the same. The problem is that NTCC pastors have been proven over and over to have gotten nothing from God. I heard all these false prophesies coming from NTCC pastors where something was going to take place that never did. It happened all the time. I can't tell you how many time they foretold of having a certain number in church that never arrived. "We will have 100 in church this Sunday because God said so"!!!!! Never happened and not even close. Even if they came within 10; what God was just a little off? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
"God wants people to come to the front so he can preform a mighty healing". No one gets healed, not even close. Their headache doesn't even go away. Ha, ha, ha, ha.
I'm making a mockery of it because it is a joke. All the stuff that RWD said came from God Kekel has now changed. Hunt came to Columbus because he was supposed to be called and then he left because he said he wasn't and he went to Montgomery because he was supposed to be called only to wind up back in Columbus where he wasn't supposed to be called in the first place. Are you kidding me? I'm supposed to believe that these guys are getting their orders directly from God?
That was one of the main reasons that my family and I left the NTCC. You couldn't trust that these dudes were getting anything from God. I can study the Bible myself and do a better job at interpretation than half of the clowns that I wound up with. It's a fact. They take RWDs word for everything and don't try to really study things out for themselves. That is exactly why sports was a sin at one time and now it's not. Secular college attendance was a waste of time and sinful at one time and now it's not. Working on a job for a (married) woman was a sin but under certain circumstances it was decided that it's not. 1Cor 16:2 in the NTCC doctrinal statement is supposed to be dealing with paying tithe when it actually has nothing to do with paying tithe. Nothing at all and not even close. I'm supposed to trust these guys? Denis is the great man of GAWD because RWD said so and the next thing you know everyone in the NTCC says he is the devil. I guess God got his guidance to RWD a little bit mixed up where Denis was concerned. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. One minute he is an overseer and the next a castaway dis-fellow-shipped. What a complete joke.
You take these guys word on them getting something from God just to learn that they've gotten little or nothing from God and more often nothing than little. The NTCC is full of a bunch of fakes and false prophets and as long as you haven't allowed the NTCC to shut down your brain you can see it just as plain as day.
Jeff
Change, change:
ReplyDeleteJust take for example when owning a stupid home was a no-no.
I remember people asked rw about buying a house and if he vetoed it then that was it. These were people who I considered having intelligence but they acted like little kids when in front of the leaders. The notion was that owning a home was seen as bad because the pastors would soon forget to win souls and they would live and work to accumulate material things and not work for God.
I've heard of all the stories about RWD insisting that someone sell their home and if they didn't they loved a house more than they loved God. What a bunch of hypocrites. RWD sits back in his big fat house barking out orders and Kekel sits by idly watching the whole circus because he has already gotten his piece of the pie. Sell your house, move, go soul winning or you don't love God while Davis and Kekel sit back enjoying their stability.
ReplyDeleteOh I almost forgot. RWD and Kekel have attained such high levels of spiritually that they no longer are required by God to sacrifice. RWD has been a missionary so he has paid his spiritual dues. Haven't you read in the Bible that you can reach a point spiritually where you are no longer required to sacrifice? Come on. It's right in 1 NTCC 1:1 For if thou obtain a spiritual plateau such as Brothers Davis and Kekel thou canst buy houses and sell and no longer soul win for thou hast attained. 1 NTCC 1:2 At such a time as this thou shalt bark oppressive orders grievous to be borne at thine subordinates so that they canst discern that buying houses and selling is sin and interferes with thine program of God as appointed by Brother Davis. 1 NTCC 1:3 Thou hast not attained so thou shalt labor with the sweat of thine brow and soul win till thine feet become sore and then thou canst ask permission of Brother Kekel to see if thou has attained at which time thou canst purchase houses and lands and claim thine inheritances if Brother Kekel so sees fit to grant thine petition. 1 NTCC 1:4 If thine name is Grant at birth, all thine petitions shalt be granted.
They're Crooks.
Jeff
Sure, and then they measure your spirituality by how many souls you bring to the church.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't bring people you are not spiritual enough and you are just playing church.
blovd
LEADERS DREAMS MISINTERPRETED--
ReplyDeleteLet's start with a comment from the thread entitled
A Little Tidbit of Information About Mike Kekel's Blog
Anonymous said...
Ange,
NTCC has been warned repeatedly, but somehow it gets misinterpreted and directed towards church members. The split was a huge warning, brought on by the churches own compromise. Has there been a sweeping revival or repentance?
It reminds of the Gospels when Jesus had risen from the dead. It was a few faithful women who witnessed He had risen. Then men(apostles) had scattered.
Quite often, a woman's intuition sounds alarm bells when something is not right in the church. I know there are some women on the board who do not agree with what is going on. Yet they are silenced by their husband's "ministry".
Look up the word wisdom in the Bible. It is a feminine noun.
comment permalink:
Misinterpreting Dreams That God Gives As A Warning: Sin The NTCC Way
Ange says:
This got me thinking about a dream that R.W. Davis had and told and misinterpreted at a conference. I was not at that conference since we were watching the NTCC National Campground while others were at that conference; but Becky (Johnson) Ankenbauer was; and she told the dream/misinterpretation as R.W. Davis had shared at that conference.
R.W. Davis' Dream:
As told by him to the ministers in conference and then shared with me (and some other workers at ntcc's campground in Missouri) by Becky (Johnson) Ankenbauer:
Becky said [R.W. Davis] said:
In my dream I was on a platform up in a tree overlooking THE JUNGLE. Through the tall grass a LION came, walking proudly, head-held high. Unknown to this proud lion, A SNAKE was approaching, HIDDEN in the GRASS.
I started yelling warnings, but THE LION DIDN'T HEAR ME. It was like A GLASS WALL was IN FRONT OF ME, BLOCKING MY CRIES.
THE SNAKE GRABBED THE LION, CLAMPING DOWN ON HIS JAW AND WRAPPING AROUND HIM, SLOWLY CHOKING HIS LIFE OUT OF HIM.
Futilely THE LION FOUGHT; BUT IT WAS TOO LATE. THE LION COULD NOT FREE HIMSELF.
Becky shared Davis' misinterpretation of the dream:
Davis said, God spoke to me and said, Those are your pastors ( the proud dead lion). They aren't listening to you (your warning cries).
===============================================
In all my life, I've never seen a prouder man than R.W. Davis.
I can't count the number of times that he yelled at the congregation, threatening those he thought were "sorry duds": "I hope God sends you people just like you."
Well, according to his own mouth and dream, R.W. is THE PROUDEST OF THEM ALL.
The dream ends badly (with the death of THE PROUD LION).
And once again I see R.W. Davis PITCHFORKING the warning from God intended for him, rdub, onto the congregation.
THE GLASS WALL
The glass wall is significant. God has been shouting warnings to R.W. for R.W. to repent; but for years rdub has been turning a deaf ear to the Lord. God will render to every man according to his own work. God has cried; rdub has ignored Him. Now R.W. Davis will cry; and God will ignore him.
Zech. 7v13:
Therefore it is come to pass, [that] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:
rdub, you've been warned, again.
Ange
“The less your [congregation] members know about you, the better off you will be. Why would I say you should go out shopping with your members and spend money in front of them? They are going to find fault with you.”
ReplyDeleteI suppose I would feel the same way that R'Dub feels if I set myself up as some kind of a person who was beyond Sin. If his parishioners do get to close to him they are going to see the "REAL" RWD in all of his radiant glory so it behooves him not to let anyone to close to him so that way he can say things like "I can't remember the last time I sinned" and set himself up as some kind of a demigod.
***The best of men are men at VERY BEST........
And yes..... that includes YOU TOO!!!!!! RWD!!
Ange that was some dream!
ReplyDeleteThis is the first time that I've heard about that dream it is quite interesting.
Mark G: for one that wasn't around for years you still have it down to a T, and you reminded of when as pastors we were taught not to ever invite the members to your house because they would find fault with what you had, and in retrospect, I guess we could have had the members over because we didn't have nice things for them to find fault with or be jealous about.
Maybe the only fault they would have had with us is that we hardly ever accumulated or had nice things and we had been serving God for so long and yet we were worse than some of them because we always had so many bills to pay.
Go figure.
xo
"Haven't you read in the Bible that you can reach a point spiritually where you are no longer required to sacrifice? Come on. It's right in 1 NTCC 1:1"--Jeff
ReplyDeleteJeff, you had me laughing again on that because it is so true. The 'gospel' according to rdub (which ain't no gospel).
xo, that was some dream. And davis using it to rebuke people, like everything else he does! But I see kekel as the lion, and george 'dad' keener as the snake. davis likes to use people to do his dirty work for him. keener's been davis's hitman/spy for years. They are really in bed together and must have idrt on each other.
ReplyDeleteMy husband warned me never to park behind keener's vehicle. He had a track record of backing up into others' vehicles and even had one campground truck pop out of gear and land in the camp's front lake. Can't say how many man hours or dollars were wasted on that. Plus I noticed when keener came around vicious fights would break out amoungst building crew members and husbands and wives. And keener was always giving bad reports or something because after he'd show up, davis would be calling and things that used to be ok were no longer ok.
Ange
THE SNAKE, GEORGE 'DAD' KEENER--
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm talking about here with keener is a much larger picture than originally seen in these comments...
debbie kinson's comments at Ft. Bragg
Between 1994-1995 Eric Barden and I were workers at the Ft. Bragg ntcc Servicemen's Home in Fayetteville, NC along with the directors Lee and Diana Taylor and their son Andrew.
During that time the kinsons were traveling around the U.S. on a ''revival' (money raising) circuit. kinson was making 'suggestions' (orders) to Taylor about what he could change at the home, blah, blah blah. And debbie was talking to me about something she experienced while the kinsons were directors of the Tillicum, WA ntcc Servicemen's Home.
debbie told me that there was a certain man who would come out to the home from time to time. She said every time this certain man would show up things around the home would break or the toilet would back-up and overflow. She said she told her husband [phil] about this and after that the man stopped coming out to the home and things stopped breaking and the toilet stopped backing-up and overflowing.
I tucked that away in life's lesson book.
Eric Barden's observations about george 'dad' keener
Eric warned me never to park behind g. keener. If you knew anything about Eric, he was a very serious man and fully meant this warning to carry weight. I took it to heart. Though his gravity seemed a little over-the-top, I knew he had a good reason for it and waited to watch and see.
Eric related the story of g. keener backing up into others' vehicles and parking the campground truck on an incline by the front lake and then it rolled into the lake creating much needless work in trying to get it out again.
Again, I tucked it away in life's lesson book.
Eric also shared that whenever g. keener was around the camp, things would break and people would get physically hurt on the job. Eric shared that one day God had impressed upon him to "wrap it up" -- stop working and go home. It was only about 4 o'clock in the afternoon and unheard of to stop working at the camp while the sun was still shining. Eric told g. keener of his plans. keener was pressuring him to stay and do more; but Eric listened to the Lord and went home. g. keener stayed and cut his finger on a circular saw.
Another life lesson.
Jan Mears' comments on campground workers getting along or not
In casual conversation about the camp, the caretaker's wife, Jan Mears, shared how some summers there were rough because the brothers and sisters who came to work on summer building projects would sometimes quarrel and argue.
I prayed about that and again waited to watch and see.
g. keener's negative impact on the camp
What I noticed was good times and great fun. But when g. keener showed up, so did discord and strife.
Life is not always obvious. Some things build over time. Small things come over time that show you the "Big Picture"
There were numerous other incidents, too many to share here, that caused me to formulate my opinion of george 'dad' keener being a snake.
But I have no doubt.
I am a patient person.
I like to do my own thinking.
I reserve judgment until I see for myself how a person acts.
I have, by the grace of God, never yet been wrong on my assessment of someone.
Based on my lifelong experiences in this department of judging character I must conclude that george 'dad' keener is a snake.
I don't expect you to take my word for it. I just am sharing some of my observations. You are free to draw your own conclusions.
I offer these facts to help you be aware because I feel fore-warned is fore-armed.
Angela
rdub, you've been warned for the last time
ReplyDeleteAnd the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: [but] ye feed not the flock.
Eze 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up [that which was] broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
Eccl. 9v4 ...for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Al
You sound like one of those New Testament Christian Church kooks who always likes to prophesy judgment on anyone who leaves their church. What they prophesy never seems to be fulfilled either. You need to quit. R. Davis lives high on the hog and if he died today he lived to a good old age with more money in his pocket than most people could even dream of.
ReplyDeleteIf God was going to judge R. Davis here on earth it would have happened already. If R. Davis goes to hell when he dies you'll never know about it and if you did it's not like you'd rejoice even though the guy is a jerk. The best judgment for R. Davis would be if he lost every dime he's got but thats not happening either.
Face it, sometimes the good guys loose and the bad guys win and R. Davis has won. He's got all your money but you don't have any of his and you never will.
Anon
Anon, you would do well to read this other blog by a Christian never affiliated with the NTCC.
ReplyDeleteA Prophet Without Honor
Careful whom ye rebuke.
If you are in NTCC you should know,
"Touch not mine anointed. Do my prophets no harm."
I would say at least 90% of the so called ministers in ntcc. Are not men of God. So not touching the annointed can not really apply to ntcc. They are a cult,full of false teachers.
ReplyDeleteAre you trying to compare rw davis to Jesus? Give me a break. Rw is so far down the line to be compared to Jesus. Rw is more likely to be compared to the devil.
there the one's with blood on there hands. Of the live's they have taken part in ruining. Some that have turned from God. Because of there handiwork! Annointed. Yeah,I don't think so.
April
I'm not sure if any of them are men of God? I don't know why a true man of God would stay with the New Testament Christian Church with all the information available? In the Bible, men of God didn't like hanging around hypocrites very much.
ReplyDeleteI have read several blogs for NTCC and against NTCC.
ReplyDeleteAll I can do is vouch for my pastor, T.P.Hasty. He is unique for sure. I haven't ever had a pastor that is as down to earth as he is. He doesn't sugarcoat the message. He preaches from the Bible and from his (Holy Ghost filled) heart.
I do not know why those who have left continue to bash NTCC,but if that is what you consider Christians to act like then that is on you. You people really should find you a church where you are happy. Bashing NTCC/other people isn't going to make you better. I hope each and everyone of you find peace and happiness and can move on.
God Bless.
Anyone who would like to renew their membership at NTCC and live in the Louisville,KY area should consider T.P. Hasty as your pastor. Fresh starts are always best for everyone.
ReplyDeleteI will give a little background about myself since I am on the positive side of the NTCC "fence."
I was a smoker and cursed alot. I wore alot of makeup,jeans,tank tops,and would snap on you in 1.5 seconds if I didn't like what you had to say or if I didn't like you looking at me. WOW! I know right! I can read your minds after reading that. Since I have been pastored by Pastor Hasty I do not smoke,wear makeup,wear jeans nor tank tops,cuss,or snap at people. Did he "brainwash" me? No. Did he "bash" me until I caved in and gave up? No. Does he "dry up" my bank account? No. Does he "call me out?" No. Does he act like he is better than anyone else? No.
He simply said straight up that in the Bible it said to be modest. His Biblical modest says not to tempt or attract the opposite sex. So if short skirts and half shirts are going to tempt and/or attract the opposite sex(or even the same sex these days-YUCK!) then don't wear it. He didn't demand I wear what he wants me to wear. He said in due time I will learn to understand what biblical modest is and I will transform in my own time as GOD works with me on the matter(s).
As for my cussing and smoking again,he said I will stop when the time is right because GOD will be working on me. He didn't pound it into me that I am such a huge sinner and he didn't grind my face in the dirt because I wasn't a Christian when I walked through the door.
Football players_mom said:
ReplyDelete"I do not know why those who have left continue to bash NTCC,but if that is what you consider Christians to act like then that is on you."
Don and Ange said,
Define bash. My definition of bash is when ntcc preachers get behind the pulpit and call out names to publicly humiliate people that have not even sinned against God or them. "Bashing" is what Mike Kekel does when he lies about folks on his blog to cover up his own sins. Bashing is what RWD does when preaches at conferences, pointing his finger at folks and screaming at them in public.
Before you bark up the bash-fest tree, please take a look at the leadership of the organization you belong to. You might find they have a history of bashing folks for no good reason. As for Tim Hasty, we wish him a speedy recovery and have nothing bad to say of him. I hold him in the highest regard as a former friend. If it were not for the ntcc's policy of disowning people that leave their cult, we would probably still be friends. But we are bashed on a daily basis. We are falsely accused and our names are drug through the dirt. We will defend our honor. I hope Tim Hasty and other good people like him will see that the ntcc does more harm than good. Until then we will continue to stand up to the ntcc and if they bash us we will bash them back.
Don and Ange
Football Players Mom wrote...
ReplyDeleteI wasn't a Christian when I walked through the door.
Jeff said...
This interesting thing is, knowing what I know about the NTCC, I wouldn't be so sure that you are a Christian now. Let me give you my reasons for saying that. You seem to think that Christianity is all about, "not smoking and not wearing jeans, and not cursing, not wearing makeup, and not snapping on someone". The abstinence from those practices don't make you a Christian. Roger Davis "snaps" or goes off on people and so does practically every pastor in the NTCC. A wife of one of the overseers wears makeup because she think her cheeks are too red. I know people who curse a lot who have way more decency than virtually every NTCC pastor I've ever known. Where in the Bible does it say that you can't wear jeans and if you do believe that it's sin then why are wives of NTCC pastors wearing sweat pants or tights to exercise at the gym?
Nothing that you just described makes you a Christian. There are women who do all of the things you described who are way better people than the wives of a whole bunch of NTCC pastors. Take Davis's wife and daughter for example. Having your own church members clean up your own house because you think you're too busy is worse than every practice that you mentioned. You can still smoke and be a decent person. I'm not a smoker and I don't like it but you can be a smoker and be a decent person. You are not a decent person when you have your church members come and clean your house because you think you are a big shot.
The problem is that NTCC people focus so much on not smoking or cursing or wearing jeans that they've completely missed the more important practices like common decency, true brotherly love shown by doing other things than just trying to get you to pay tithe and go to church. Respectfully speaking, I can tell that you really don't understand (according to the Bible) what Christianity is supposed to be all about. I'll take a cursing woman before some of these stuck up, holier than thou, backbiting, thinking they are better than everyone else NTCC women.
Jeff