Thread #54 In the previous thread Concerned Minister wrote..."I believe there is a problem with abuse among some of the pastors in the field. I am looking for possible sources for it and trying to get a deeper understanding of its causes and effects. It goes deeper than "they learned it from Pastor Davis."
Jeff said...
For those of you who don't know, Concerned Minister says that he is an active NTCC minister. Based upon his written statements I think it is quite likely. The reason I say this is because he has deservedly elected not to reveal his name so as a result we don't truly know who he is. He does regularly go by his screen name which I wish others would do more often as well. Some who only post "anonymously" or "anonymous" have no credibility with anyone on this blog. Concerned Minister seeks to be the voice of reason with exNTCCers on this blog and he often seeks to perpetuate a different point of view that often favors the views of the NTCC. I have no problem with that despite the fact that I don't agree with him quite often. Open dialogue is very good nevertheless open dialogue is something that RWD generally does not allow under any circumstances. It is either his way or the highway and he has stated that in many different ways.
Jeff then replied to Concerned Ministers original statement...
I thought about this whole abuse thing again and your statement that I quoted above. You are actually right; it does go deeper. Right before my family left the NTCC for good pastor Oberhauser made two notable statements during church service. He said "some of you won't allow me to pastor you." Then he said and I quote, "someone told me that I am too nice and I need to be more rude."
Jeff said...
First thing: Who ever told him he needed to be more rude had to a leader senior to him. NTCC pastors generally don't receive pastoral advice that they are willing to implement if it does not come from a senior leader. This guidance that Oberhauser was given had to come from an overseer or Kekel or Olson or RWD or a senior pastor such as Kinson. Which ever the case Oberhauser was effectively told to become abusive because that is exactly what being "rude" is.
I don't allow people to be "rude" to me and my family and continue to put up with it if I have any other choice. And guess what? That is exactly what Oberhauser did but the more proper description of the metamorphosis that he displayed was turning from someone who was nice into an abusive jerk. The way he treated Sis Haynes was totally unacceptable. Concerned Minister: He was told to act that way by someone in the NTCC leadership.
It was definitely taught and I have seen the same thing take place before with 5 other NTCC pastors and I witnessed the occurrence with my own two eyes. The only difference is that some of these guys didn't go through a metamorphosis. They showed a consistent pattern of being abusive jerks all alone.
Concerned Minister: Someone does not have to give you a verbal directive for you to be taught something even though that was the case with Oberhauser. You are being taught something every time someone suggests that you follow the "example" of other leaders. That is regularly taught in the NTCC. Everybody wants to be like RWD or Kinson or Jones or Olson and so on.
The reason there are "so many" abusive ministers in the NTCC is because it is a common occurrence and therefor "copied by many."
Everything I have written is a "FACT" Concerned Minister and can not be disputed.
Jeff
I thought about this whole abuse thing again and your statement that I quoted above. You are actually right; it does go deeper. Right before my family left the NTCC for good pastor Oberhauser made two notable statements during church service. He said "some of you won't allow me to pastor you." Then he said and I quote, "someone told me that I am too nice and I need to be more rude."
Jeff said...
First thing: Who ever told him he needed to be more rude had to a leader senior to him. NTCC pastors generally don't receive pastoral advice that they are willing to implement if it does not come from a senior leader. This guidance that Oberhauser was given had to come from an overseer or Kekel or Olson or RWD or a senior pastor such as Kinson. Which ever the case Oberhauser was effectively told to become abusive because that is exactly what being "rude" is.
I don't allow people to be "rude" to me and my family and continue to put up with it if I have any other choice. And guess what? That is exactly what Oberhauser did but the more proper description of the metamorphosis that he displayed was turning from someone who was nice into an abusive jerk. The way he treated Sis Haynes was totally unacceptable. Concerned Minister: He was told to act that way by someone in the NTCC leadership.
It was definitely taught and I have seen the same thing take place before with 5 other NTCC pastors and I witnessed the occurrence with my own two eyes. The only difference is that some of these guys didn't go through a metamorphosis. They showed a consistent pattern of being abusive jerks all alone.
Concerned Minister: Someone does not have to give you a verbal directive for you to be taught something even though that was the case with Oberhauser. You are being taught something every time someone suggests that you follow the "example" of other leaders. That is regularly taught in the NTCC. Everybody wants to be like RWD or Kinson or Jones or Olson and so on.
The reason there are "so many" abusive ministers in the NTCC is because it is a common occurrence and therefor "copied by many."
Everything I have written is a "FACT" Concerned Minister and can not be disputed.
Jeff
I have to disagree with Concerned Minister. The Men in ministry that you look to as an example are 'modeling' the behavior for you
ReplyDeleteThe behavior that ntcc ministers are modeling for those under them is a "ministry" based on greed and power, this is not the ministry that Jesus modeled for his disciples, lets look at some of the differences:
Davis- lives like a king and has used the ministry to increase his wealth through dishonest gain
Jesus- never emphasized gaining wealth, but instead warned against it, while "having no place to lay his head"
Davis- Uses people to serve him by doing his household chores and mowing his lawn while convincing these naive young men that Jesus would have them to do such things
Jesus- although he taught his disciples to serve others, he also modeled this behavior by the self-less life that he lived and particularly at the last supper where he girded himself and washed the disciples feet to purposely show the an example of servant hood.
Davis: Uses his "pulpit" to purposely manipulate, humiliate and publicly expose people's personal affairs and sins.
Jesus: when preaching would teach the people, encourage, exhort and comfort people and never exposed people publicly
Davis: on his best day reveals his true nature which is simply the works of the flesh in full force. while simply using psychological manipulation to cause the ignorant and unlearned to believe that "god is moving"
Jesus: NEVER manipulates us, but by his spirit causes us to be changed slowly into his image, which results in an ever increasing fruit of the spirit, which is
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, meekness and self-control
concerned minister, does this comparison of Jesus with Davis not make it clear that Davis is simply a money hungry fraud?
now lets remember that Jesus said "a student will become like his teacher"
so these abusive ministers are simply modeling the behavior that the "men of God" in ntcc have proven to be effective for accomplishing the desired end.
maybe your a little naive? if you are that is fine, just admit it and try to be more logical
thanks,
T
Exactly T. What else is there to say.
ReplyDeleteJeff
You know T,
ReplyDeleteFor many, many years I questioned why Davis didn't act like Jesus. His actions didn't compute with the Bible. Infact, Davis' actions and/or teachings, many times, were the direct opposite of what Jesus taught. And yet, everytime that thought would come up, I would tell myself I was the one who was the problem for even thinking that. I mean, he's the "man of God", right? Now I realize that I WAS right in my assessment of Davis... he DOESN'T act like Jesus!!
Casey:
ReplyDeleteDavis hasn't acted like Jesus and neither do his ministers. Jesus would have never said: If you don't like it in my church, there is the door, don't let it hit you on the way out. That became a common statement for me to hear from different NTCC ministers.
I can hear Jesus saying it now: "If you don't like it with me, there is the door, hell has plenty of room." That is not Christ, that is Anti-Christ which is exactly what RWD and his ministers were and are when they made and make the same type statements. If RWD and his ministers really loved people and believed that they had the answer for mankind / a lost and dying world, they would never have made such a statement in the first place.
Jeff
Jeff, has it ocurred to you that this particular pastor you are talking about was just saying what he heard rwd said? That phrase he used about "you won't let me be your pastor" was said in one of the conferences I attended and to me he, oberhauser, was just saying these things to mimic what he had just heard.
ReplyDeleteI remember coming from conference and the pastor of the church would preach and talk everything that he heard rwd say that week, it was like, "come on, you didn't come up with that yourself."
I guess some people don't have the brain to seek God for themselves, they just have to use all these cliches that they have heard other ntcc people say and on they go....
Opal
Opal asked...
ReplyDeleteJeff, has it occurred to you that this particular pastor you are talking about was just saying what he heard rwd said?
Jeff responded...
Of course. I know that's who they learned that statement from. Also it wasn't a "particular pastor". It was more than one pastor in addition to RWD who I also heard make the same offer. The apple never falls far from the tree. The NTCC is messed up.
Jeff
I have seen many times my husband, an NTCC minister, come up to pastor Davis to say,"Hi" or whatever and he, Davis, turned away or had a look on his face like he wanted my husband to go away. It always makes me so angry that he treats a good man that way. My husband has never done anything to him. I'm sure it's Rev. Davis' way to keeping my husband in his place. One of these days I may just lose my cool and tell him off. Of couse, that would get me into a lot of hot water with my husband so maybe not. Pray for us that God touch my husband's heart to preach in another church. Never Harm
ReplyDeleteHey Sister, I am going to refer to you as "Never Harm" if that is ok?
ReplyDeleteRWD is like that with many people. He is really not a very nice guy quite often. I do understand your frustration and hopefully your good husband will see the NTCC for what it really is. Just hang in there. My wife hung in with me and I saw the light. The NTCC has a way of showing their true colors to just about everyone if they are willing to see it. Hopefully your husband has an open mind.
Just be careful posting on this blog. NTCC people in Graham and all over the United States read this blog. If you want to remain truly anonymous don't use any phrases that are unique to yourself. These NTCC spies will figure out your identity quickly, if you do use phrases that are unique to yourself. These NTCC guys are like the KGB. They are regular spies I tell you and they have no problem with turning folks into the leadership. They are like RATS. Then they will no doubt call your husband and you will get black listed by the NTCC leadership. You know that is how they operate. Just be careful of the things you write that could possibly give away your identity. If it even matters, I just wanted to give you some friendly advise.
I appreciate you coming here.
With all sincerity,
Jeffrey Collins
404-405-7842
Good advice chief.
ReplyDeleteThis "never harm" could be me writing. I've had the same experiences that she's had, specially during conferences.
I'm praying for my husband too.
a.p.w.
a.p.w. said...
ReplyDeleteThis "never harm" could be me writing. I've had the same experiences that she's had, specially during conferences.
Jeff said...
What you just described a.p.w. is exactly what everyone of us here has experienced at one time or another. What you just experienced is extremely significant and more so than you probably understand right now.
It's what I call self realization or for the lack of a better term, "enlightenment". We were all preached at so much that we were ALL conditioned to believe that we should never think any negative thoughts about the NTCC. Our very though process was suppressed by the NTCC. NTCC leaders are quite psycologically manipulative and we were effectively trained to NEVER even entertain thoughts of negativity. But guess what is happening? In the process of you reading Never Harm's testimony the veil of deception is being lifted from your mind.
It may seem that I'm being dramatic but I am actually not being dramatic at all. Until we totally realize that "MANY" other people who were and are in the NTCC, experienced and witnessed the same occurance's that we have, we never want to or, are able to totally see the truth about the NTCC.
The thoughts and realizations in your mind are quite real a.p.w. RWD and the NTCC leadership have treated many people very badly. pdq experiences are real, my experiences are real and not falsely fabricated, L. Travis's and CM's and Bro Johnson's, and Casey's and Angie's and Vic Johanson's and Diana Taylor's testimonies are very real and accurate. T and Mark G, and Nelleshara, LaQueshia Jefferies, Durek Darwin and on and on have all testified of atrocities that they witnessed which were instituted by NTCC leaders. Are each and everyone of us lying? Why would people like Vic Johanson post information about his NTCC experiences for year after year if something significant didn't take place in his life to compel him to continue? I have been doing this for almost 2 years now. Why? Because I know what I experienced and it was no good.
Years of my life were waisted and just squandered away following insincere minister after minister in the NTCC. Substantial amounts of money were pledged and paid to an organization that distributed substantial amounts of money to the likes of Mike Kekel and his family. My goal was never to assist Mike Kekel in accumulating substantial amounts of wealth while other NTCC ministers remained broke or struggling. That is not Christianity and my assertion can be proved just by reading, Acts, Romans and 1 Corinthians. We don't find any examples of ministers becoming extremely wealthy at the expense of their fellow Brothers and Sisters.
Would everybody in your neighborhood simply donate quantities of money to one particular family so only they could live high on the hog? Of course not so why should this occurance take place in a Christian church?
Because it is not a church, it is a family owned business that distributes the money however the owner likes, and there is nothing that me, you, or anyone else can do about it.
Jeff.
Thanks for responding, chief.
ReplyDeleteI am going through some withdrawal right now and I refer to it because at one point or another you have to think, really think and say to yourself okay what am I going to do. I believe the hardest think for me is that even though I believe that ntcc have good things it has gotten too big to really put a stop to the change that many different people have brought with them, specially those that are in the upper ranks.
Just like that man in houston said he gave the answer to why he has a child of his in karate, because in his mind is for her benefit if in case she is attacked by a stranger.
Come on, unless maybe he lives in a very bad neighborhood or she is going to be alone, but what are the odds of her being attacked, and I am not making light of this but maybe he just saying this as an excuse to have her there.
I remember being preached about women and playing sports, that this would cause some girls to be tomboys and later could make them into lesbians, if this man is reading this what does he think of that?
I guess it all boils down to see how long God gives me the grace to stay and see my poor husband waisting his life and his resources away.
a.p.w.
Hello a.p.w. The decision to leave the NTCC isn't easy. Especially if your husband isn't on board. I'm not suggesting that you are looking for advise because you haven't asked for any, but even if you were I certainly wouldn't know what to tell you.
ReplyDeleteI witnessed a lot of abuse in the NTCC. It wasn't until I became convinced that it all originated with RWD that I knew for sure it was time to leave. Most of what I know now about the NTCC became apparent after I left.
I didn't know that women who were pastors wives had worked on jobs all along but I do now.
I didn't know that escrow accounts were often zero'd out with the change of pastors, and how the church finances were controlled and managed; but I do now.
I didn't know that Grant Kekel was afforded liberties that we were all told was sin; but I do now.
I didn't know that NTCC pastors were allowed to attend secular colleges that we were all told was a waist of the time that God allocated us; but I do now.
Girls allowed to attend Karate.
Ministers wives attending College football games.
Pastors taking time off to go to Disney world.
Boys and specifically Grant Kekel being allowed to wear shorts for basketball and tight pants to play football.
Pastors wives wearing pants to exercise.
Pastors wives wearing finger and toe nail polish and excuses being made to allow certain wives (of NTCC leaders) to wear makeup because they have some kind of rosy cheek condition.
Pastors are being allowed to miss repeated conferences now and that would have previously gotten folks licences pulled.
I can prove every single solitary example that I just wrote with names, pictures, dates and so on.
Frankly I have no problem with any of that because actually it is none of my business.
The problem that I have is that we were all told that everything that I just mentioned was sin and I know that the NTCC leadership knows this stuff is going on, and they are doing nothing about it but making excuses or saying nothing at all.
Not only that but a very interesting pattern has emerged. The people who are being allowed to get away with all this stuff are people who have made the NTCC money or they are actually leaders in the NTCCs higher echelons. To spell it out, it is classic cases of favoritism and partiality, plain and simple.
That is why I have such a huge problem with the NTCC.
The NTCC is corrupt and I have talked to enough NTCC pastors that I know the NTCC has been "totally" corrupt for quite some time. The things that I have just written barely scratch the surface of all the stuff that I have dug up about the NTCC. If it weren't for the internet we would know hardly any of this information. RWD, Kekel and Olson have hardly been saints all along. With those three it is nothing new. All you would have to do is take the time out to read this blog.
Jeff