Our Servicemen and Women have sacrificed greatly so that we can have the liberties we all now enjoy. We have freedom in the United States. I enjoy the freedom to live in my own house, take care my family the way I see fit, and look out for the best interests of my children. My daughter will start college this year and become a full time college student just like Grant Kekel. Contrary to what the New Testament Christian Church teaches, women also have freedom in the United States. They can vote and contrary to what RWD believes, they can share in intelligent discussions concerning elections. Contrary to what the NTCC believes, Woman (with a capital W) are worth a whole lot more than to just cook, clean the house, raise the children, (if they are not brainwashed into not having them) and having sex. The biblical evidence is Proverbs 31, the book and chapter that RWD absolutely can't stand unless of course it is being read by a brainwashed drone. Then RWD can make it mean anything he wants and they will believe him. The (married Woman) in Proverbs 31 possessed the freedom to have a job and it was counted to her as righteousness and she was considered virtuous. In the NTCC that is a novel concept.
People have sacrificed and died so that all people in the United States can have freedom (to include women) and the NTCC leadership has done everything possible to steal those freedoms from their members. Examples: Don't go here or else! Don't go there or else! Your children can't do this (even though Grant was allowed to) or else! The only way you can serve God is our way! It's our way or the highway! Move "when" we tell you to move! Stay when we tell you to stay! Move "where" we tell you to move and if you don't like it there is the door! Buy a house when we tell you to buy a house and sell your house when we tell you, so that you can move "when" and "where" we tell you to move. Go to visit your family when we say it's ok, (which won't be very ofter)! Date who we say you can date! Visit who we give you permission to visit! Have only the number of children at your kids birthday party that we allow! Work the jobs that we say you can work and only work the hours that we say you can work! If that causes you financial problems then you have the "freedom" to either walk out the door or stay with RWD's corporation, go broke, and in dept with credit problems.
Listen people. Take your freedom back by exercising the one freedom that the NTCC freely offers. "If you don't like it here, there is the door." Honor our Service Members by taking back the freedom that they sacrificed so greatly for you to have. Take the freedom back that Jesus sacrificed so greatly for you to have. Know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Happy Memorial Day.
Jeff
Great post, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteWe've said it before; and we will say it again. davis is not even a good American; because he takes away everyone's freedom.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of freedom can anyone confirm Rev. C.L. Barnes of Jackson, MS has left ntcc?
ReplyDeleteWhat about Rev. J.C. Reeves of Portland, OR?
ReplyDeleteCan anyone hear the footsteps? I hear them, but they're going in the opposite direction. All the while they get up and say they're growing.
ReplyDeleteWell, if you would like to go out into the ministry with NTCC please contact Rev. Difrancesco and he will be glad to relay this info to Mr. Davis. Thank you, this has been a public blog-casting message.
Jeff said...
ReplyDelete"Honor our Service Members by taking back the freedom that they sacrificed so greatly for you to have. Take the freedom back that Jesus sacrificed so greatly for you to have. Know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
Kris said...
That just about covers it, Jeff.
I pulled this post and my reply from an older thread. I think it runs parallel to this theme of freedom and it's being stripped by NTCC.
ReplyDeleteHere it is:
Anonymous said...
I feel sorry for Grant. All the envious eyes looking in, his own grandfather blasting him in the middle of conferance when he isn't even there to defend himself, etc. Quit talking about a kid who had no choice in how he was raised, and talk about the people who dug their own graves and continue to do so. The kids are just innocent victims.
May 23, 2011 11:02 PM
Blogger Kristofer Moore said...
"All the envious eyes looking in, his own grandfather blasting him in the middle of conferance"
This might have been a good statement if you didn't blame us for his problems. Ya, he's a victim just like us. Boo-hoo. If you want to feel sorry for someone please feel sorry for someone with only one pair of shoes or only enough money for one meal in one of NTCC's "missionary" churches, being told to quit their jobs and getting very little if any financial support from their rich American leaders.
I would have more respect for Grant if he told his dad to keep his stupid Mercedes. He is of age now. He is old enough to vote and drink and join the military. He is no longer a kid. He joins with his father in enjoying a lavish lifestyle on the backs of the poor, in my estimation. He has a mansion in his name and a fancy Mercedes that most of us will probably never own, and many of us would not care to own. Don't call me envious. Some of us didn't leave because we were jealous. We left for our freedom.
I think if I was Grant and I read the Bible and had an ounce of character, I would tell my Dad, "TAKE MY NAME OFF YOUR TITLE, AND YOU TOO PAPA. I don't want to be used to help you launder your assets. Grant's name is on the title, but I have read on fb that Davis regularly goes to the mansion. It looks like it's just a cover-up much like the laundering of money done by the mafia. It's just a restaurant on the surface, but it's really a place to hide the money being acquired by killing people. Do you know that if you hate your brother, you are a murderer? It's just the same as stabbing a man in the throat if you misuse him, abuse him, and then throw him away to the world, and talk bad about him for leaving. Why? Because you are trying to KILL HIM SPIRITUALLY, YOU MURDERERS!!
ReplyDeletei was telling my wife about this program they showed us in school called "scared straight". So I looked it up online to show it to her and to my surprise, they have been doing it all through the years up to now. This is over 20 years !
ReplyDeleteScared Straight is a program where at-risk teens are taken to various jails to talk with the inmates. It is a program started by inmates and the goal is to "scare them straight" so they'll change their ways and not end up in jail like they did.
Here's a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJoI6X_HC_A
in a way, we are trying to scare people straight by telling the truth about ntcc
doug hardy
i saw the whole episode of the sneak peek vid and it's not all yelling and screaming.
ReplyDeleteonce the prisoners see who take it seriously, they talk to them like a friend and encourage them to change so they don't end up in prison
Kris said,
ReplyDelete"Ya, he's a victim just like us. Boo-hoo."
so much for showing grace and mercy!
so much for showing grace and mercy!
ReplyDeleteI don't think he was trying to.
Grace and mercy for what? What does he need grace and mercy from me for? How is he suffering? and how can I help him? Tell me what I can do to help him in his hour of need? Who is oppressing him? Who is persecuting him? He is a young rich man who has apparently accepted lavish gifts from his "papa" and his dad which there is great evidence to show that it was likely ill-gotten gain or greed lucer.
ReplyDeleteYou want me to show mercy and grace by saying that he is just a poor victim like the rest of us? Sorry, I don't see it that way, and fail to understand your logic or lack thereof behind labeling him as a victim.
If all he accepts is his "papa's" mansion, he is now a rich man who is partaking in the benefits of being that rich man's grandson. He is not a kid anymore. As I said, he is old enough to vote, drink, and join the military. If the gov't grants him that responsibility, I say he is conscious of his decisions already and he knows exactly what he did if he accepted his name on the title for a Mercedes and a mansion. Why didn't he say, no. This is not right. Nobody seems to know how you got all these things, and you all take tithes and offerings from all those churches, and now you have mansions and suv's and fancy cars, and you want to use MY name on the title of a mansion that YOU are regularly using, papa? I don't think so. I am an honorable Christian and I don't want to be used for that reason. Get someone else to use their name.
ReplyDeleteNope. Apparently he just said, ya, put it in my name. I hope I'm wrong about him. But it sure doesn't look that way. It's not that easy to be a Moses or an Esther and risk losing all your riches for the cause of the people of God, and statistically speaking, I doubt he will. I hope he will though. We'll see.
Grant, who knows if you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteso much for showing grace and mercy!
Kris said...
It's so ironic that you said that, Anonymous, because that is exactly what the NTCC clearly needs to learn is to not sacrifice, but show mercy. They are willing to sacrifice their people rather than have compassion on them. The greek word for mercy actually would probably be better defined as 'compassion.' Anonymous, and all other pro-NTCCers, Go and learn what this means... I will have compassion and not sacrifice. I will have compassion on the weak and oppressed and not sacrifice them and their children for my own personal benefit!
someone should do a thread on ntccs shunning policy!
ReplyDeletekris,
ReplyDeletei am sure grant doesn't know all of the dealings of davis, kekel, and the rest.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletei am sure grant doesn't know all of the dealings of davis, kekel, and the rest.
Jeff said...
No doubt but I'll guarantee that he knows more than most. Children often hear and remember what their parents discuss. I know. I have a daughter who just graduated high school. Plus and of course I was once a child, and my parents discussed certain things within my hearing range.
Jeff
Anonymous posited ...
ReplyDeletekris,
i am sure grant doesn't know all of the dealings of davis, kekel, and the rest.
Kris said...
I agree with Jeff. He grew up in their HOUSE, Anonymous. Ever hear the saying, "if the walls could only talk?" I can just imagine what I would know about the Kekels if I could just live in their house for ONE WEEK as their son incognito. You think they go around like the CIA in front of him as if they live one lifestyle in front of him and another when it's time to do business? He may not have come to a full realization already, but he should in time, and this blog is a great place for him to start to learn about his family. I don't blame him for his situation, but if someone just watches someone rape someone at the age of 20 or so, will you say he didn't do it, so he's not guilty of anything? What can he do about it? He can start by saying, "take my name off the titles. Use someone else's name to cover your sin."
If Kekel offered me his Cadillac (like apparently he did to Grant) and if Davis offered me his mansion (like apparently he did to Grant) I would have to ask them how did you get the money for these? Of course that is a secret and they just expect us to believe they have been saving their honest hard-earned dollars that they acquired the old-fashioned way, and all of us were just too stupid to save the similar amount of money that we received over the years.
ReplyDeleteSo I would tell them like Peter told Simon in Samaria: Your money perish with you! Davis gave me 50 dollars just before I left NTCC, but buddy, you better believe I gave NTCC a whole lot more than 50 dollars. So he may have thought I was hoodwinked at the prospect of him spotting me a fifty spot, but I just snatched it from him coz I needed every dollar I could scrape up at the time. But if I hadn't put any money into the org, I don't think I could have accepted it with all the evidence showing that it is filthy lucre.
When will Grant be considered an adult? Hasn't he already left for college? He is not uneducated. According to Jeff, he has enjoyed a very fine education from a very expensive school. Buddy, if he can't add one plus one by now, I feel sorry for him. I'm sure he can put the pieces of the puzzle together, but it's awful hard to resist the gifts that he is being lavished with right now. Nevertheless, I am pretty sure he is of age to know right from wrong.
The media pumps it out to people scandal after scandal about churches deceiving people and stealing money from them. This has a two-fold point:
ReplyDelete1- NTCC should be more transparent in light of this
2- Grant did not grow up in a bubble. He should know the world that he lives in, and at least be skeptical of a church leader who owns two mansions and is able to just sign one off to his grandson. Give me a break! He doesn't KNOW what's going on, my left toe.
It only shows Davis' self-centered character and the fact that he could care less for the church that gave and gave of their substance to NTCC, forsook their own families, and gave up having personal possessions and nice lifestyles so they could keep their rinky-dink 2x4 churches from falling apart at the seams, when Davis just grants a mansion to his one and only beloved grandson or just grants an expensive piece of property to his daughter and son-in-law.
ReplyDeleteEven if he got all that money from selling lemonade, and all the money had nothing to do with his position in NTCC, etc. it would still show the church what he cares about- not you.
It also eradicates all that trash he used to teach when he said he shouldn't help anyone by giving them something coz it will kill them. How has Grant earned a mansion at his age? Did he get good grades? So you give him a mansion? At the very least, he could have used the money for that mansion and distributed it to some ministers who had labored in their fields not collecting a red cent, and given each one maybe a couple thousand dollars. How about giving back to the ones who worked so hard. It's useless to try to convince someone what it means to love when they just don't have it in their heart. Can't NTCCers see that? He doesn't give a diddly-squat about you!
How has Grant earned a mansion at his age?
ReplyDeleteIt's not really a mansion. It's an average sized house. I know what the estimated value is but it's really not all that and not a mansion. Grant is his Grandson and that is pretty much all it takes.
SO who cares id davis gave Grant anything, it's his grandson... and the only one at that. Of course he's gonna reap the benefits of grandpa's dirty dealings. I would certainly take a car or a house.
ReplyDeleteIt's not Grant's fault they are dealing dirty. If people in Ntcc are stupid enough to pour all their $$$ into that organization than, that's their problem. Hopefully this blog and other's will make them see the "light"
Jeff, it's so awesome that your daughter is going to college and so great she has a father who values her and women in general.
kris,
ReplyDeleteyou're, rightfully so, upset and angry at the leaders methods as well as at yourself for having been taken and duped.
you are thinking that if you were grant, you'd ask some of the questions you mentioned.
look at it objectively. if you were a kid and your dad or grandson gives you a car, what kid is going to ask
"where did you get the money for these ?"
if davis was to offer me a car right now, i wouldn't take it. if he offered it to me in ntcc, of course i would take it.
i don't think grant knows as much as you think he knows.
grant didn't see anyone get raped i'm sure ( to use your analogy).
doug hardy
don't let your anger consume yourself.
Doug said...
ReplyDeleteif davis was to offer me a car right now, i wouldn't take it.
Jeff said...
You know the funny thing is that if Davis offered me a car right now, I would probably take it. All the time and money that I dedicated to the NTCC? I would count it as payback. I believe the NTCC owes it to me. Buy another RV for the org or give me a car? He should buy us all a car.
Having said that, I do understand your point Doug. I would see it like Robin Hood taking from the wicked Sheriff of Nottingham and giving to the poor folks. That is the way I'd view Davis giving me a car other than Robin Hood wouldn't be a part of the equation.
Jeff
I think Kristopher has a right to be angry, Just like I am angry and others are angry. If NTCC were to shut their doors tomorrow there would be a party at my house. There was a time when my hatred and anger consumed me about the dealings of New Testament Real Estate Holdings Inc. but not anymore. I trust in God and know their end. (ALL OF THEM) from R'Dub to Olson (The Lamb of Graham)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteA 3 Bed, 5 Bath, 4,212 square foot house, with landscaping, circular driveway, and a pool, on .6 acres is not 'average size.'
Kris,
While I understand what you wrote, I don't share your view. Grant should do what he has been doing (aside from not yet becoming a Christian)...accepting all that is given him, and getting an education so he can be a success in life, and be able to properly take care of himself, and any family he may eventually have.
I doubt Grant even knows he has a house in Arizona 'willed' to him.
Regarding the reports we've heard that Grant is not yet a Christian...with all he has seen and heard, I would be more surprised if he was one.
Gregory
Greg said...
ReplyDeleteI doubt Grant even knows he has a house in Arizona 'willed' to him.
Jeff said...
You may be right, not unless someone has filled him in about the information on this blog.
Jeff
Jeff, I just took the time to read your post and must shout a resounding Amen! Angela read it earlier and I've just been reading the comments. It's amazing that we could be charged as military men and women with the awesome responsibility of defending our country in some cases to death, and yet we allowed a snake oil salesman to influence our every decision. The military placed great responsibility on our shoulders and trusted us with the lives of those we led but we allowed R-dub and his bunch of slackers to tell us such things as how many people we could have over to our child's birthday party and we allowed them to require grown adults to ask permission to have other grown adults over to their house or if they could carpool together.
ReplyDeleteIt's comical that people would defend this bunch of hypocrites. "Oh, we need to be loving Christians and forgive and get on with our lives." No we need to expose these crooks and phony hypocritical liars for what they are and what they have done to the lives of those they abused. "Nobody put a gun to your head". That's what makes what they do so perverse and so wrong.
The organization called ntcc was spawned by a very evil and corrupt man who we call r-dub or rwd who sought out other men of like character that he could manipulate using the fear of hell to create an organization with only one purpose in mind and that was to get rich. As long as people out there can be believe that hell is real, the ntcc will continue use the threat of eternity to manipulate them into making very stupid decisions with their lives and futures. This is what cults do and why we warn people to stay away from them. Do yourself a favor and salvage as many years, months, weeks, days, hours, minutes and seconds of your life that you can. Make the break towards freedom. Keep Jesus and loose the chains; run, walk or crawl to freedom and don't look back, but look forward.
Don and Ange
GS said,
ReplyDelete"Regarding the reports we've heard that Grant is not yet a Christian...with all he has seen and heard, I would be more surprised if he was one."
a ruse mostly likely in order to justify why he went to a secular school. wait and see how long this poker face lasts.
Kris said,
ReplyDelete"Grant did not grow up in a bubble."
not true at all. does he really know what it means to be a christian?
Anonymous said,
ReplyDelete"Does he really know what it means to be a Christian?
Don said:
No, neither does his father.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteDoes he really know what it means to be a Christian?
Jeff said....
I immediately thought the same thing that Don wrote. His parents and grandparents don't either, I can promise you. Christ like? They are so far from it, it's like the east from the west. Love thy neighbor? The Davis' and Kekels? All they love is their money, real-estate and the control they have on people. They love the "yes sirs and yes ma'ams". They love the greetings in the market places and to be waited on hand and foot like kings and queens. They love to be sucked up to.
Is having a bunch of people suck up to you constantly Christ like? Is only truly looking out for your family members Christ like? The fact is Grant probably knows more of what it's like to be a Christian than his parents or grandparents. If he possesses common decency he certainly knows more.
Jeff
Anonymous said,
ReplyDelete"Does he really know what it means to be a Christian?
Kris said...
People can get saved in a Catholic Church. You got saved in NTCC and eventually realized they were doing something bad. Hopefully someday he will stumble across this blog when the Holy Spirit deals with him like I believe he dealt with you. We all learned what we could from NTCC that was good and then hopefully we didn't end our understanding of Jesus with Kekel and Davis' example, but we went on to perfection like Martin Luther did when he realized that not everything the Catholic Church did was right. At least that is what I have done. I didn't leave NTCC and leave God, and I hope none of you did. I have done some pretty intensive studies on my own since I have had more free time since I left NTCC, so I am not just going by my "feelings" when I preach against NTCC, and when I preach to others what I believe to be the right way to Heaven.
Anyways, we are all without excuse for the way we live according to Romans. Grant may have been shown some poor examples of brotherly love by Davis and Kekel, but he has been shown the Bible, and if he reads his Bible like he should, then it doesn't matter what Kekel and Davis showed him, just like it doesn't matter what he showed you if it contradicts Jesus and the Apostles.
It's just funny that for all the hoopla about Catholics, that his schooling is being or is already paid for by the NTCCers. In 4 years, GK will have a revelation and a Bachelors in Business and then come back to the NTCC to really kick it up a notch. Maybe he'll help in the revisionist re-branding efforts of his daddy and others and things like using social media for marketing, podcasts, distributing sermons online, online tithe and offering payments, etc. will get it in gear and we'll have NTCC 2.0. Things once frowned upon will be commonly accepted by everyone that are unaware of the past of this organization.
ReplyDelete"In 4 years, GK will have a revelation"
ReplyDelete"a ruse mostly likely in order to justify why he went to a secular school."
smoke and mirrors!
Just read something about the Qumran community (a Jewish community that believed that they were the special chosen Jews. They had one "Teacher of Righteousness" and believed that he alone had the right to interpret the hard to understand scriptures.
ReplyDeleteMaybe this was the first Bible-based cult. I thought of the scripture in 1Corinthians 14 that says that while one is preaching, let another sit by and judge. I thought of how when someone other than Davis preaches there is usually someone sitting on the platform behind the speaker, but when Davis gets up, Kekel and Olson scatter like mice. Who is there to judge what Davis says? Who would dare say something? This is a common custom in Christian churches though, not just NTCC. But some scholars have been questioning the idea that the churches Jesus and the Apostles established were supposed to be run by one monarchical bishop (from monarchy- rule by one). In the early church, they appointed elders. Later on there was only one bishop in each church. What do you think? So the question is, are we supposed to follow the model of the early churches of the book of Acts where there is no evidence of ONE bishop residing over each church? or should we follow the model of the developed church perhaps 300 years later where it evolved into an organization with bishops answering to one pope in Rome?
I received a very startling phone call this evening. Just when I thought I'd heard it all, another exNTCCer calls and tells me about her experience and it somewhat dwarfs pretty much anything we've read so far. There will be more to follow on this one. She is planning on putting together an email that will be posted on the front page of this blog. She has a family member who is notable within the NTCC hierarchy, who could very well be the most low down individual that the NTCC has ever formed. And guess who was fully involved with this absolute travisty? It's does take rocket science; RDUB.
ReplyDeleteI'm just aching to post THIS story but we agreed to hold off till I received her email. Her family member is absolute dirt. Anyway more to follow but trust me, you'll want to read this one. I can tell you this. I've never heard of anything like it in my life. Just when you think you've heard it all, the NTCC's corruption get even deeper. These NTCC leaders are the scum of the earth.
Jeff
This is not to really bash NTCC but just to say "I took back what they stole from me" and that was my freedom. I don't feel like I'm going to hell anymore for wearing a pair of jeans, or a pair of sneakers. I don't feel like I going to hell anymore because I wear shorts sometimes. I can read my bible and understand it now without a pastor's Q&A. I've moved on and realized I could serve God without the servicemens home, or bible college
ReplyDelete"The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing."
ReplyDeleteJohn Adams
In the NTCC, if a person thinks, speaks or writes anything that goes against their way of communistic, domination way of life, one thing is sure, they will devour and destroy that same one.
Amen hullbeaty!
ReplyDeleteShorts and jeans don't make anyone more of a Believer than a skirt of dress does.
Whether a lady wears makeup or jewelry or not doesn't mean she is is isn't saved.
Externals is not what saves us.
It's taken me a long time to unwash that 'you're not really a Christian if you wear pants / cut your hair / work outside the home / listen to anything other than southern gospel, etc, etc, garbage out of my mind.
It was just a few weeks ago actually that I finally felt free of that junk that was indoctrinated in me for years and I am able to look at people not as 'hell bound' or 'heavenbound', but with love as my brother or sister.
I don't care if they wore a potato sack and had a mullet! I still love 'em! =)
A few months ago a good friend came down. I took her to my favorite vegan resturant as they have the best food ever.
Well the cooks, waiters and waitresses are all covered in tattoos and piercings which never really phased me, but they are some of the most down to earth, wonderful, talented friends who would give the shirt of their backs if you asked 'em.
My friend made a comment that they were 'strange' and her daughter said they were 'scary' based solely on appearances without even getting to know them.
They could be die hard Believers for all I know, who are we to sit there and go 'well if they were TRUE Christians they would be dressed more appropriately and looking more like a Christian should be', etc, etc
You know what I mean...?
Finally I have been able to break free from that NTCC mentality and just LOVE every single person regardless of their clothing, their hairstyle (or lack of it), their music tastes, which Bible version they use, if one at all, and so forth.
...He set me free, yes He set me free...He broke the bonds of prison for me...
;)
Amen Dawn!!!
ReplyDeleteTB
Dawn said...
ReplyDeleteI am able to look at people not as 'hell bound' or 'heavenbound', but with love as my brother or sister.
Jeff said...
I also give an Amen to that one.
Jeff
Well Dawn, you may have got it out of your head, but you can not get it out of the book. Paul makes it very clear, and it was not just a custom for that area, because right after that he talks about the Lords supper and we know that is for all. The custom that is made reference to is the one about debating it, that is not the custom of the church, but you already that and I am not going to debate it neither.
ReplyDeleteMr. Jeff make remove this before all get to read it. That is what he did to the person who made a truth, a fact. He could not stand it and had it removed.
But, it is still true and a fact that can not be changed!
Anonymous Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWell Dawn, you may have got it out of your head, but you can not get it out of the book. Paul makes it very clear, and it was not just a custom for that area, because right after that he talks about the Lords supper and we know that is for all. The custom that is made reference to is the one about debating it, that is not the custom of the church, but you already that and I am not going to debate it neither.
Mr. Jeff make remove this before all get to read it. That is what he did to the person who made a truth, a fact. He could not stand it and had it removed.
But, it is still true and a fact that can not be changed!
???????
hey kris,
ReplyDeleteyou may enjoy reading the articles at the below site as well as the one in the link
http://homechurchhelp.com/going-to-church-is-not-in-the-bible
What are you talking about anon?
ReplyDeleteNot sure about the anonymous anonymous mumbo jumbo, but you are absolutely right in your comment Dawn. We have learned to be so critical of everyone and out of habit we looked down our noses at every person that claimed Christianity and tried to find reasons to put them in the unsaved column of life. Who are we to say that a person is not saved because of outward appearances?
ReplyDeleteIf outward appearance is the measuring stick that determines how saved a person is and the ntcc is supposed to be a model of "holiness", I'd rather go to the Salvation army soup line and find a real Christian that represents God in all humility. The "holier than thou" attitude of the ntcc is nothing more than pride and control. If they can find a group of people that they can influence them and their children to dress the exact same way and say the exact same things and convince you that this is the result of salvation and make you believe it, you are right where they want you. You will do about anything else they ask. They say jump, you jump. They say roll over, you roll over. They say holiness or hell, you say: "Let me change my entire life". You become a form of entertainment for the board members. They must laugh at you as the money rolls in. It's a sickness for these people. It's not genuine. It's all about a group of control freaks getting rich.
The ntcc is falling apart at the seams. People have an inward desire for freedom and though it may be suppressed and they may be oppressed, they will eventually be drawn towards freedom as a young eagle that longs to take his first flight. A volcano builds up pressure and there is nothing that can be done to stop it from erupting.
The ntcc is crumbling from the foundation. Ps 11:3 "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" We implore you to leave and find peace in Christ. It's not as hard as the ntcc makes it seem. Christianity was never intended to be next to impossible.
The quality of Christianity that makes it so appealing is freedom. There is no freedom in the ntcc. They are against freedom and liberty. They put you in a box and try to keep you there. As long as you play by their rules you are safe in your box. Hell can't claim you, the devil can't get to you as long as you stay in your box. But you were not meant to be kept in a box. People were made to desire and seek freedom and liberty. The ntcc is the opposite of freedom and liberty. The ntcc is a controlling organization that places rules and policies in your life to bring you into bondage and slavery, so everything of monetary value can be extracted out of you. They want you to feel hopeless and trapped. These are not emotions that reflect Christianity. There is real freedom and outside of the ntcc and if you long for it you will have it. They can only control you while you allow them to.
In the early church, what was it that drew thousands of people? Was it the clothing they wore? Was it the strict set of rules that made them walk on egg shells all the time? Was it their intolerance for the poor and needy? Was it their desire to be rich? Was it their desire to control others? No, and a thousand times no!! They were excited about what took place on the inside. They wanted freedom from all the Pharisees and the phony religious leaders and their laws.
If you want freedom, run in the opposite direction of the ntcc. If you want liberty stop letting the ntcc tell you who you can talk to and who you can't talk to. Stop letting them tell you what to wear, what to think, what to say, how to raise your children, how to dress your children, how to walk and talk, how to breath and how to live. Don't you think that God is able to do that without their help?
Don and Ange
Kris said..."Who would dare say something? This is a common custom in Christian churches though, not just NTCC. "
ReplyDeleteIf you remember some time ago RWD in conference getting Ashmore to get him a definition of "episcopacy" (It was funny hearing him say it and what it first sounded like) and how he used it to justify the leadership structure of NTCC. I've never heard of deacons in NTCC and they don't use the title bishop, but in other versions of the Bible the term is overseer. Some churches make a big deal, but who really fits the description of the offices of the church in Ephesians 4:11 within NTCC? Sure there has been traveling single preachers they consider evangelists, but what else? For their pastors Jeremiah 2:8; 10:21; 12:10; 23:1-2 apply more to what we have found out on this blog.
Never mind, don't have time any more for this.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said, "Well Dawn, you may have got it out of your head, but you can not get it out of the book. Paul makes it very clear, and it was not just a custom for that area, because right after that he talks about the Lords supper and we know that is for all. The custom that is made reference to is the one about debating it, that is not the custom of the church, but you already that and I am not going to debate it neither.
ReplyDeleteMr. Jeff make remove this before all get to read it. That is what he did to the person who made a truth, a fact. He could not stand it and had it removed.
But, it is still true and a fact that can not be changed!"
The attitude displayed in this comment is a perfect example of why I left ntcc. Forget about love, focus on what is wrong, and instruct another with complete lack of humility. You've made wide your phylacteries and the long tassels on your garments are showing.
LD
Dawn asked...
ReplyDeleteWhat are you talking about anon?
Jeff said...
I'm not sure either. This person wasn't very clear.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletePaul makes it very clear, and it was not just a custom for that area
Jeff said...
Paul made what clear? That you run around judging and turning your nose up at people according to the way they dress? That is what Dawn was talking about. Not only that Paul didn't say that you'd go to hell for wearing shorts. Additionally Mike Kekel said that he had no problem with short being worn and his son wore them in basketball. So what was so clear? I wouldn't expect a logical thoughtful answer here so I won't hold my breath.
Jeff
Well, read I Cor. 11 and find out what he as talking about.
ReplyDeleteI also read that we can not listen to any music but S. Gospel?? That is not true. BT Choir is not twangy as I remember, and neither is Charles Johnson, but it is a mixture of country and black.
PSA 31:18
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSure there has been traveling single preachers they consider evangelists, but what else? For their pastors Jeremiah 2:8; 10:21; 12:10; 23:1-2 apply more to what we have found out on this blog.
Kris said...
Here's one of those verses. Very interesting...
Jer 23
1) Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2) Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
And about the "evangelists." This is so funny that they call a divorced man driving around preaching for money an evangelist.
In my study of the office of an evangelist, I would say an evangelist is one who is bringing the gospel to someone. Someone who teaches the things of the gospel could also be called an evangelist, too. But I think typically an evangelist is laboring in a certain field or fields, not in one town for a week, then in another town another week, just preaching for a week with no commitment or responsibility to a people group. This was what RW Davis loved about being an "evangelist" before he became a "pastor." He said he didn't want to leave the evangelistic field because he liked having no responsibilities. You get to just preach here, then leave, then preach there, then leave... and so on. Paul told Timothy to do the WORK of an evangelist. That is why I say, evangelism is laboring on a field to deliver the Gospel to a people, especially one who does not know the Gospel yet. Evangelism of course has a broad definition, but I think if you give someone that title, they should be laboring on the field to reach a people or peoples. He may be travelling from one to the other, but it's not with the attitude (in my opinion) "Oh, I can just preach here and I have no responsibilities in any other way. I'll just get paid to preach REVIVALS!!!"
by the way, sometimes when you see the word, "visit" it means to care for or oversee.
ReplyDelete"And about the "evangelists." This is so funny that they call a divorced man driving around preaching for money an evangelist."
ReplyDeleteActually, RW did teach that what we call "evangelists" are really "revivaliststs," and that a true evangelist is what you describe. Of course, that begs the question of why there were no real evangelists in NTCC, unless pioneer preachers qualify.
Vic said:
ReplyDelete"Actually, RW did teach that what we call "evangelists" are really "revivaliststs," and that a true evangelist is what you describe."
Don and Ange said:
Too bad that most of the revivals were really not reviving anyone but usually revivals in the ntcc were about trashing people that were not in the ntcc and tearing people down so they could be worked back up into a frenzy. They would kill us, so they could revive us. In that sense they were revivalists. There was really no evangelism to speak of unless you consider swindling GI's out of their paychecks an evangelistic work. RW had a good racket going, too bad people are starting to wake up. I think the ntcc has seen it's better days. Reports of them having only one service in Washington and the sanctuary being half full, The Reeds and other long time ministers leaving and the negative tone in Graham suggest a decaying group of followers.
Rw surrounded himself with people just like him and now his true legacy is beginning to manifest itself. I think he realized shortly after the denis split and the compromise that came along with it, that he was fighting a loosing battle. Placing much of the his responsibility into the hands of mck was a huge blunder also.
The sad thing is that no matter what happens to the org. short of them being hauled off to jail, the leaders will all make out pretty good. The royal bloodlines will be set for life in accordance with their pecking order and Rw's goals will be accomplished. It's a shame that all this was at the expense of good people that were beguiled and who entrusted the leadership with every aspect of their lives.
Don and Ange
Too bad that most of the revivals were really not reviving anyone.
ReplyDeleteNot true. They were reviving their pockets from city to city. Travel the country for free in the big RV. The revivals were effective at keeping people around who were probably ready to leave just a little bit longer. That way they could get few more tithe payments out of them.
Now they don't even have regular fellowship meetings. The NTCC is a crock.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"I also read that we can not listen to any music but S. Gospel?? That is not true. BT Choir is not twangy as I remember, and neither is Charles Johnson, but it is a mixture of country and black."
Um, are you new to NTCC? I ask because there were always sermons blasted from the pulpit about the evils of 'contemporary christian music' and anything other than southern gospel as 'safe' music.
I will give you it though, BTC was okay for some preachers, but it's also been touted as being too worldly.
Lots has changed the past few years in NTCC. What once was sin, hellfire and brimstone is now okay. All you have to do is read through this blog and see the posts from those who were in the org in the 80's and 90's.
We don't make this stuff up.
"Um, are you new to NTCC? I ask because there were always sermons blasted from the pulpit about the evils of 'contemporary christian music' and anything other than southern gospel as 'safe' music."
ReplyDeleteRW particularly mocked black gospel music, equating it to "screaming." He did all he could to discourage us from listening to it, and frequently dialed the choir back when they got a bit too enthusiastic for his dead tastes. He ould also frequently go tirades on why the congregation only sang "I'll Fly Away" and about six other songs, but never lifted a finger to see that change was instituted. He just liked to rail on us, and that was a continual excuse.
elliot gesang used to 'preach' against Amy Grant in class; and I quote him: "We don't listen to Amy GrUnt!" -- e.f. gesang
ReplyDeleteAmy Grant was considered 'worldy' so was Don Francisco, Michael W. Smith and many others.
Judge for yourself:
Amy Grant: El Shaddai
Amy Grant: Better Than A Hallelujah
Don Francisco: He's Alive
Michael W. Smith: Healing Rain
Not all ntcc ministers preached against these artists; but many did. And those who did preach against these artists did so because davis only approved of southern gospel and many Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir songs.
Worship music was one of the few pleasures 'allowed' to ntcc members; and even that was closely controlled and monitored by the borg!
satan truly does not want you to enjoy your salvation or praise God and feel the Holy Spirit's presence!
Regarding RWDs sexual deviance, it would be interesting to find out exactly what happened with the woman who recently came forward about an encounter with him as well as those that forced his departure from St. Louis that Durek may know about.
ReplyDeleteLet me tell you what is happening here. The NTCC is getting a dose of their own medicine. Current NTCCers say, "they aren't doing anything but finding fault on those blogs". Well what do they think that the NTCC did during every service that I and everyone else ever attended with very few exceptions? FIND FAULT!!! WITH EVERYTHING!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat did they preach about constantly during service?
Women's dresses being ever so slightly too short. I heard it.
Us not wanting to go soul winning quite enough.
Music we listened to.
How a ladie's hair looked and how she had it fixed.
How we dressed for church.
Who would babysit our kids.
How we ate / dinning etiquette.
We didn't give enough in the offering.
The women didn't do enough in Sunday school.
We didn't talk enough with new people.
We didn't smile enough.
Everyone who loves the Lord should want to attend fellowship meetings, (which don't even exist anymore).
Working out is a waste of time.
Sports is a waste of time.
TV this, TV that.
Devilnet and the sinnernet.
DO YOU GET THE POINT????!!!!
NTCC pastors and church members under the direction of RWD have been the biggest fault finders in the whole universe for decades. So who are the fault finders? I'm not trying to get someone to this blog while trying to get them to give as much money as they can possibly part with. I've not asked one person who comes to this blog for a hand out. What I do here is totally free and it's helped countless people realize what the NTCC is truly all about. The Real Story. The one they don't want you to know.
Jeff
I know but for the sake of the women I won't name names. While her husband was at work, Davis was going to her house for some sex. She went to Olson about it and Olson said that she needed to find another church. She said that Davis would give her money. This happened years and years ago but Davis is not the saint that he has claimed to be.
ReplyDelete"I know but for the sake of the women I won't name names. "
ReplyDeleteDoes this person still attend NTCC or was this in the good ole' Forest Avenue or Carondelet Church days that Durek talks about? He's known Olson for awhile and I'm sure he would go to his grave with that secret and skeleton.
Meaning RWD has known Olson for awhile...
ReplyDeletesatan truly does not want you to enjoy your salvation or praise God and feel the Holy Spirit's presence!
ReplyDeleteYes this is true.
What is also true is
NTCC doesn't want you to have a close relationship with God and feel the Holy Spirit......
doug hardy
Pastor did not like the "yelling black music", he did and does still like some black music. The singers of some groups were not received well because of their worldly look. But the songs were good, regardless of who sang them.
ReplyDeleteAmy Grant wore pants(jeans) so tight , looked like she was poured into them. Even the military in Germany did not like here tight fitting jeans. And almost cancelled her contract to sing unless she changed her dress to something more modest. I was involved in that and know it to be a fact.
I know other information too, but I am not going to share it. The bible forbids me to do that, it is not a good report.
PSA 31:18
Amy Grant wore pants(jeans) so tight , looked like she was poured into them.
ReplyDeleteshe's an adulteress anyways! that's below his standard.
anonymous said, "she's an adulteress anyways! that's below his standard."
ReplyDeleteDon and Ange say,
davis and kekel have broken up numerous marriages and created adulterous relationships. Aside from the personal acts of adultery, they have created adulterers and adulteresses by breaking up marriages for non-biblical reasons (e.g. one spouse left the ntcc) and encouraging remarriage (only to another ntcc member)! The bible defines those relationships as adulterous.
The borg is a huge recycled marriage facility! Might as well rename ntcc "Adulterers Are Us"
anonymous said,
ReplyDelete"I know other information too, but I am not going to share it."
Don and Ange say,
We guess "it's got to be revealed to ya!" hahaha anonymous sounds like a rooster: "crock-o-doodle-doo-doo"!
anonymous said,
ReplyDelete"The bible forbids me to do that, it is not a good report."
Don and Ange say,
Why don't you take this statement and make posters for the ntcc church members. That way every time a ntcc minister gets up to blast them, the members can hold up these "shut up" or "talk to the hand" posters and maybe those pulpit bullies will start to get the message. You could even make fans for the ladies to use at conference. Lots of hot-air flying around at the old campground. Ya know what we're saying?
Don and Ange
"she's an adulteress anyways! that's below his standard."
ReplyDeleteThat's because he only applies his standard to others, but not himself. It's a trait shared by all narcissistic hypocrites.
some music is anointed no matter who wrote or sings it(Even if Amy Grant jeans are too tight). I refuse to play and sing that southern gospel junk. If you like it, great then you listen to it. What's that one woman that they all listen to that sounds like a man??? And Sis K always sings her stuff and all the sisters try and sing like her... You sound like men! So much for trying to be ladies.... Yuck!
ReplyDeleteGive me some Chris Tomlin, Mercy Me, Hillsong, and my fav Isreal! I dare people to not feel the presence of God in some this music.
The woman your referring to (deep voice)is Nancy Harmond. If your voice is naturally low, it cannot be helped. But if a person is not used to singing in that manner, I imagine it would not sound good. It doesn't matter the type of song. What counts is whether the person is singing just to sound pretty; unless the Holy Spirit backs you up, all the singing is in vain.
ReplyDeleteOne conference I sang "I Know What Prayer Can Do". It had a blue's sound but the words were great. I sang it from my heart, some clapped along. But others sat quietly. After service several of the sisters from St. Louis said Sister you've got nerve. I remember singing some songs that were not always what Rev. Davis liked. I wasn't asked to sing for a long time.
When I was finally asked to sing, it was back in Graham. Rev. Davis said "are you gonna sing those songs", (referring to black gospel)I told him no. Needless to say the songs were chosen to please him. I don't sing Southern Gospel to well, so at times I was really uncomfortable.
Deborah Shunk
I was tired of the "song services" too. They couldn't even call it "worship." They had to call it the "song service." How dead. It is supposed to be a time to worship God, but we sing upbeat songs to make it like we are all these bunch of happy people. That's fine once in a while, but I want to worship God, not sing a tongue-twisting song like, when trials fierce assail me, when storms are gathering o'er ... give me a break. How about just praising and worshipping God?
ReplyDeleteThe night I left the org was Conference April 2009. Kekel led the choir singing a slow worship song, that they had changed up and ruined in my opinion, but at least it was a worship song. Kekel ruined the spirit that might have pervaded the congregation if he had just been humble. He was yelling loudly to the congregation, "CAN YOU HEAR THEM? CAN YOU HEAR THEM?" like some crazy man. All I could think was, he would rather have the attention on him than on God.
I remember at another conference one year, people were praying during a prayer meeting and calling out to God, and Davis told us that none of us were really praying and that God told him that. He wanted us all to be quiet when we prayed. Looking back I wonder if he was jealous of God and the attention He was getting.
I can't stand Nancy Harmond's voice either. Her voice sounds like a man, and she acts like a man while she's singing as I recall the last time I listened to her. I think it was the first and last time. Her voice reminds me of Rev. Ashemore's voice. Gross. Not very lady-like.
ReplyDeleteThat Conference that I left, Tanya was also singing a special. It sounded so worldly. She was singing, I've come too far to turn back now, and she kept showing off her skills, that it just seemed fleshly. It was terrible. Bro. Enokian (sp?) was worldly dancing to her singing. He started doing a clap and then a head roll to the side, then a clap, and a head roll to the other side. It was pathetic, because he was right. It was getting quite worldly in NTCC.
It reminds me again of Kekel when he was getting real good at electric guitars. He would do some pretty worldly solos, and one time he got mad coz the rest of the magicians (musicians) didn't get quiet for his guitar solo. Another great act of humility by him.
"He would do some pretty worldly solos, and one time he got mad coz the rest of the magicians (musicians) didn't get quiet for his guitar solo."
ReplyDeleteIt was frustrating to try to play with him; he apparently viewed the rest of us as mere accompaniment to him and was always berating us to subdue ourselves--but he never wanted to subdue himself. He's very talented, but not as much as he appears to think. He did rip out some pretty decent Hendrix and Led Zeppelin riffs in the dorm, though. I guess it was like that bluegrass festival--God told him it was OK and he took the liberty to do his own thing.
So Vic, can you expound upon the music career of Kekel? No doubt he heard Hendrix and Page on the guitars while in Flint, Michigan and tried to play while in the Army. He also makes it sounds like he was thrown on the piano by RWD and banged through some songs. He also has made it sound like it was ok for band members to listen to secular music or to study what they can do and then incorporate it into their musical repertoire.
ReplyDeleteKris, you didn't know that standing up at the beginning of service, singing 2 songs, taking up an offering, hearing some "special" song by who knows what, and then enduring 30-60 minutes of "And Jesus said"'s and pauses for affect and an altar call was God's ordained plan of salvation? Ask RWD and he'll tell yah!
ReplyDeleteDeborah Shunk said:
ReplyDelete"I remember singing some songs that were not always what Rev. Davis liked. I wasn't asked to sing for a long time."
Don and Ange said:
Trying to remember back so many years is hard, but I believe in the very first conference that I went to in 84 I think Deborah sang "Only One Life" and what I really remember about that song was that It sounded great and God's presence was all over the place. The next conference I looked forward to hearing her sing again and each night I was thinking she would sing but it was a let down. I didn't hear her sing in a conference for years after that and though many others sang and were good, that song and that part of the service was truly missed by me and probably others too.
I really believe that this and other instances where rwd quenched the Spirit of God have dampened the potential for growth. The ntcc could be a mega church now if they would show some human decency to others and allow God to get the glory instead of them. I really believe that rwd doesn't want to share the spotlight with anyone to include God.
I remember hearing tapes of ashmore preaching and hoping that he would preach during conferences. I always got the impression that rwd was afraid to let him preach. He got to preach maybe two times in 13 years worth of conferences that I attended and seemed restrained in his preaching. So instead we had to listen to rwd or olson preach. Talk about quenching the Spirit. Many times I felt like a kid in church that can't wait for the service to get over. It was a major buzz-kill.
Don and Ange
"So Vic, can you expound upon the music career of Kekel? No doubt he heard Hendrix and Page on the guitars while in Flint, Michigan and tried to play while in the Army."
ReplyDeleteHe started playing when he was just a kid, and had evidently worked hard. When Browning Coker went on the "evangelistic" field, it fell to him to learn the piano in about five minutes, which he did pull off amazingly well. After I came back from Alaska, Casey wanted me to take over drums so he could play sax; I started playing in church, but when Casey brought me to the quartet practice Mike refused to let him quit and gave me the cold shoulder (thanks, old roommate). He never wanted a real drummer; a drum machine would have suited him better, and I guess I was too familiar with him to yield that much control. While I was there at this one practice, he had a cassette of some secular country music that he played, so that they could learn what kind of sound it was he wanted. He made sure to tell us not to reveal that we'd listened to it, though. I'm sure the Lord told him it was OK; no need for RW or the cattle to know. Don't think he invited any of them to accompany him to bluegrass festivals and such, however. Apparently only he has the spiritual fortitude to withstand the pernicious influence of such worldly entertainment. He suffered it for the work of the Lord, though; what a hero!
Phil Kinson told me that when they lived together in the Manchester dorm, Mike would set his alarm to KSHE, St. Louis' hard rock station. It would blast out Pink Floyd or Clapton at five or six in the morning, but Mike wouldn't get up and shut it off, and Phil would have to do it to save his own salvation.
Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall" should actually be required listening in NTCC (slightly amended):
"We don't need no education.
We don't need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the pulpit.
Preacher leave the kids alone.
Hey, preacher leave the kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall"
"Kris, you didn't know that standing up at the beginning of service, singing 2 songs...was God's ordained plan of salvation?"
ReplyDeleteThey take this way seriously, too. Jim Johnson came up here once to check up on us, and while he was here, we committed the grave faux pas of singing THREE songs in Sunday morning service. Evidently this was a dire threat to the sacred order of service; he made sure to take me aside afterward and chastise me for singing that extra song. There was apparently no room for spontaneous expression of love toward God. I replied to him "I didn't think we were bound by tradition." He hemmed and hawed, spit and sputtered a little, and I'm sure it went in a report someplace that my response exceeded the obligatory "Yes Sir, won't happen again, Sir!" And we continued to exceed the official two songs when we felt led to do so.
Deb Shunk said...
ReplyDeleteI remember singing some songs that were not always what Rev. Davis liked. I wasn't asked to sing for a long time.
When I was finally asked to sing, it was back in Graham. Rev. Davis said "are you gonna sing those songs", (referring to black gospel)I told him no. Needless to say the songs were chosen to please him. I don't sing Southern Gospel to well, so at times I was really uncomfortable.
Jeff said...
Typical control freak tactics that I always refer to. I'm tell you folks. If you don't truly understand, RWD is one control monger freak. That is all he is. He plays mind games. He doesn't ask the Sister to sing for a long time because he is all bothered and upset like a child, but when he finally does, he places restriction on the whole deal.
RWD is like a little kid but with a whole bunch of money and a whole lot of authority over others. That is one terrible combination. He's a spoiled brat. Here is RWD: "Ok, I've finally decided to let you play with my toys again but only if you play MY WAY and if you don't, I won't let you play anymore."
He is like a big spoiled kid. People think he is spiritual? He may very well be the most nonspiritual jerk I've ever known in my life.
I remember one time when he was in the serviceman's home Columbus Ga. We were all having a conversation. Hunt was the pastor and RWD kept making wise cracks on Hunt and Hunt was getting noticeably embarrassed and defensive. During the conversation I decided to give my input because I had a pretty good understanding of the topic being discussed. As I began to interject just a little, RWD quickly butts in, interrupting me and he cuts me off cold. It was obvious that he didn't want anyone other than him to have any significant or substantial input that would contribute to the conversation. He wanted to be the center and the focus, and if for a short period of time he wasn't, he was going to interrupt you in order to regain exclusive control. The guy is a rude jerk and a control freak. That is RDUB. A RUDE JERK AND A CONTROL FREAK. And one with a lot of money and he doesn't need anyone else. That is why he has no problem saying, "If you don't like it there is the door"!
I will guarantee that as a kid, he constantly took his toys back from other and I will also guarantee that he didn't play well with others.
Jeff
"I will guarantee that as a kid, he constantly took his toys back from other and I will also guarantee that he didn't play well with others."
ReplyDeleteFrom what he shared with us about his upbringing, it was totally dysfunctional. His mom died when he was 13 or so, and we frequently heard about what a nag she was. And he bragged on how his dad would pop him and his siblings upside the head at the slightest provocation. But he revered his dad (at least publicly), and even gave him a pass for becoming Baptist. We heard about the dire poverty on the cotton mill hill, and how he despised it. I think he was the youngest brother, so he may have been bullied to some extent.
What he became is a product of all these factors acting on his inner man. The way he responded to these events doesn't speak well of his basic character. Others have been oppressed and misused and came out shining at the other end. But he seems to have an inner drive that consists of resentment and the compulsion to prove to the world that he's a great man, even if he has to connive and lie to do it.
I've never met anyone quite like him, even to this day; he's complex, interesting, and toxic in the extreme. He's like some beautiful, glittering viper or insect that mesmerizes the prey before poisoning its blood. We had no idea of the serious personality disorders that were lurking beneath his exterior, waiting patiently to tangle us up in a web of sick fantasy. We were naive, and stumbled right into it.
Can you tell I'm glad to be gone :-) ?
"I always got the impression that rwd was afraid to let him preach."
ReplyDeleteHe should be. I heard Ashmore preach a message about Eli and his sons in conference at the campground once (I think 1994) that, even though JR probably wasn't even conscious of it, applied perfectly (and, it seemed, uniquely) to RW. It seemed prophetic. It was all about how on the outside, everything might look like a well-oiled machine, but in an Ichabod situation, nothing could save it. He spoke about how the man of God's eyes had grown dim, and that God didn't need a particular individual, but would raise someone else up to replace the one with the compromised vision. By analogy, the only leader remotely corresponding to Eli was RWD, and there was an eerie parallel in the description, which has only increased over time.
During all this, RW fumbled with some outlines in his throne on the platform, and seemed oblivious and disinterested in the preaching. Maybe it was an act, and he heard every word (and made sure he didn't get to preach at conferences much thereafter), or maybe he really was spiritually deaf.
Even to this day, I'm half expecting the other shoe to drop, and RW's empire to crumble in a day just like Eli and his sons. And that could happen; it was years and years that Eli and his progeny afflicted the spiritual life of Israel. Regardless, RW's legacy has been destroyed by hundreds of negative accounts, spanning decades. He's a fraud and an exploiter, and the only people who don't know it are the ones still in his thrall.
When Willie Gordon was pastoring at Ft. Huachuca,Az. Rev. Johnson had stopped there for a few days.They sang some excellent chorus's. Apparently Rev. Johnson didn't like it. He told Willie they are to sing 2 songs and to use the song books. Talk about putting a damper on their services.
ReplyDeleteI remember Rev. Davis always saying he wanted a black church. I guess he didn't want Willie to run it as one.
He had a great group of people and they loved their pastors. When Willie ended up on their bad list, he was told to send the money the members raised to buy land,to Graham. The people knew there had been a change. They kept asking Willie why the Hqts. was taking their money. They felt the money belonged to their church. So when Willie left the members followed him, they didn't want to be part of NTCC. I heard jokes about Willie, saying he came pimping in to a Conference. He's proud, the main attacker was Mike. During the preaching he mocked him. Willie put it together from nothing, what has Mike ever done. Hqts. should have left them alone to worship the way their use to worshiping. So many overseers have hindered a work instead of helping.
Deborah Shunk
It was amazing how Willie Gordon went from being the example we were all supposed to emulate to attain guaranteed success, to the devil incarnate--overnight! How is it that RW, who is so in tune with God, is such a bad judge of character? It just shows how fickle he is. As long as we allowed the puppet strings to jerk us around, we were golden, but as soon as we exercised the self esteem and individuality RW was always bloviating about, suddenly we were a spiritual threat and some kind of enemy of God.
ReplyDeleteOne word explains all:
Narcissist.
Deborah, did you ever know Carl Sensabaugh? Was he some kind of "adopted" son of RWD. I know that you were previously married to Rev Blumenthal and it is weird having heard about people that RWD makes it sound like he cared for them like they were his own children and would have moved them up in leadership if they hadn't left NTCC. Blumenthal would be where Kekel is now, Gordon would be where Denis and Curry once were, and others that were around like MDR would be over World Missions or something like it. It's amazing how many lives were stifled because they couldn't be used for all of their potential while in NTCC.
ReplyDeleteWow. Great (true) comments everyone.
ReplyDeleteHere is how Pastor Davis ordered all his churches to conduct service:
It's time to begin our service (this is said the second the scheduled time is reached). Let's all stand and worship the Lord (or lift our hands and out hearts to the Lord in prayer).
At this time Bro Such-and-so will come up and lead us in song (or the Pastor leads song service).
If you would please, pick up a hymnal, and turn to hymn number ____ (then say the name of the hymn).
Now turn in your hymnals to hymn number ___ (then say the name of the hymn).
You may be seated.
As the usher(s) come(s), it's time to receive our tithe and offerings. All Christians pay tithe and give offerings. (you could also add..So you give as unto the Lord, and the Lord will bless you according to your giving).
Thank-you for your giving. At this time Sister Shunk is going to sing a special.
Then the Pastor gets up, reads his Bible reading, then his text verse, then the title.
Preach 3 point message (with introduction, and conclusion...no more than 30 minutes; no exceptions...also, total service time could not be longer than an hour, including alter call; no exceptions).
Have alter call (which you have to 'work' so people will get saved, and get the Holy Ghost).
Then invite/pressure everyone to stay for fellowship (you must teach something during fellowship; no exceptions).
Then prayer meeting.
Then clean up.
Then sleep. Phew.
Deborah and I were in Graham's choir for about 4 years. Yes Rev. Kekel played worldly music during choir practice (both secular and christian contemporary), and gave us copies to 'study' before the next practice (we still have the copies/proof), and talked about the secular music he listened to (telling us to keep it hush-hush) in order to improve his musicianship.
Gregory
"In 4 years, GK will have a revelation"
ReplyDeleteOr Constipation!!
Bro Johnson
Greg wrote...
ReplyDeleteAs the usher(s) come(s), it's time to receive our tithe and offerings. All Christians pay tithe and give offerings. (you could also add..So you give as unto the Lord, and the Lord will bless you according to your giving).
Jeff said...
Over and over and over. So true. That in itself should be an eyeopener.
Jeff
This is off the subject, but did anybody read about the "Worms from Hell?"
ReplyDeleteTrue story! Worms 8 feet long have been found more than a MILE under the ground. Google it!!
Just like what the Bible says, "Where the Worm dieth Not...."
Bro Johnson
Deborah, did you ever know Carl Sensabaugh? Was he some kind of "adopted" son of RWD. I know that you were previously married to Rev Blumenthal and it is weird having heard about people that RWD makes it sound like he cared for them like they were his own children and would have moved them up in leadership if they hadn't left NTCC.
ReplyDeleteWhile we were in the Philippines in '85-'86 we were brought back to the states. Rick was promoted to Asst. Gen. Overseer. He didn't want to be Asst. Gen. Overseer, and he didn't want to come back to the states. The work was beginning to grow, we were seeing the fruits of our labor. Upon returning we began preaching revivals for the churches.
I never did meet Carl Sensabaugh. But Rick was constantly told he would probably end up like him. It was said jokingly but still said. Rick hated the double standard. I have more to say and I'll put more of it on my blog.
Deborah Shunk
Vic said, "During all this, RW fumbled with some outlines in his throne on the platform, and seemed oblivious and disinterested in the preaching. Maybe it was an act, and he heard every word."
ReplyDeleteI'll guarantee you he heard every word, that's why he was fumbling with his paperwork. Wow, It just dawned on me, the man was convicted, I guess he's not a reprobate after all! Just a wicked narcissist.
And make no mistake about it Jim Ashmore is just as wicked as Davis is so maybe that whole thing was prophetic about their house of cards.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"And make no mistake about it Jim Ashmore is just as wicked as Davis"
Don and Ange said:
"Birds of a feather.....
Gregory said:
ReplyDelete"Have alter call (which you have to 'work' so people will get saved, and get the Holy Ghost)."
Don and Ange said:
I remember working the altar during alter call. We were taught to do that a certain way also.
First we used a high pressure sales like tactics on each soul that went to the altar and also the ones that stayed in their seats. We were to assume that every new person in church was a sinner.
"Would you like to accept Jesus into your heart"?
If they said I'm already saved, we were instructed to try to find away to get them lost so they could get saved.
"Have you repented of all your sins"? Are you living in sin now?Have you ever sinned?"
Then if they still persisted we would ask them if they would like to rededicate their lives. Then we would move on to the next person, like an assembly line. Sometimes we would talk to 4 or 5 people during one marathon altar call.
If the person prayed for salvation, we would call them brother. If they said they were already saved, and would not pray for salvation we would not call them brother. Sometimes we would pester them at the altar call in the next service. I've had pastors tell me to do this and I knew it felt out of place and wrong to hound a person over and over. What was really happening is that the pastor was running this individual off by making him feel like he wasn't saved. The pastor was just using us to accomplish this.
The altar call was nothing more than the part of the service where souls are sorted out and placed into categories. Depending on which category they were placed in determined their longevity in the ntcc. Now I know that there are some pastors that were sincere and really cared about souls, but they were taught this routine by a man that was to be the benefactor of the monetary blessings that would be produced in this system. They were brainwashed into thinking it was all about souls. As soon as someone got saved tithe and giving was immediately introduced.
Many of the preachers that I sat under would not obey the 30 minute rule that Gregory spoke of, however some did. There were preachers that would say, "I hope you don't have a roast in the oven, because it's gonna burn". I wonder where they got that from? That's when you knew it was going to be a marathon. I can't count the number of people that walked out during altar call. Many probably felt like they were being scrutinized. Sometimes the pastor would yell and plead during the altar call making it very hard to talk to folks about the condition of their souls.
Not only would we constantly pester and hound them at the altar, we would go back to the barracks and do everything we could to drag them back out to another church service. What the ntcc doesn't get is that the ineffectiveness of their program was the cause of many people leaving and they ended up pushing away more people than they won. This was intentional because what they were after was not saved, Holy Ghost filled Christians but they were after tithe payers and givers and individual money wells that they could tap any time they got thirsty for wealth. The altar call is the most important part of the service and in the ntcc, it was a numbers game. We were looking for people that would get with the program.
This system might have actually been successful in some ways because it made many people leave and never come back. This can be considered a very good thing.
Don and Ange
"This is off the subject, but did anybody read about the "Worms from Hell?"
ReplyDeleteTrue story! Worms 8 feet long have been found more than a MILE under the ground. Google it!!"
Uh, they're nematodes, and they're not 8 feet long; they're .02 inches. They eat bacteria, not human souls (which aren't material; any worms that feed on them couldn't be discovered by scientists with micrsocopes).
Don't get carried thinking bible doctrine is being corroborated by National Enquirer headlines. If there is any spiritual lesson to be learned, it is that there are amazing aspects of the stupendous creation which haven't yet been discovered.
Jeff your killing us!! Gotta post that new info! ;)))
ReplyDeleteTB
Vic,
ReplyDeleteI love the fact that you use your mind to rationalize and reason and still be founded on the faith. So many Pentecostal's get all yipped up about everything (no offense brother j)
TB
TB said...
ReplyDeleteJeff your killing us!! Gotta post that new inf
Jeff said...
I will. Gotta wait on the email from my associate. I promised. I got one email back already just assuring me that there would be more to follow. I'm telling you, this one really shows just how demented these NTCC leaders are. These NTCC leaders are some sick in the head dudes. They have no common decency.
Jeff
Yet another unexplained accolade for Briggs (brought over from a recent comment on another thread.
ReplyDeleteVic says ...
"That's a good thing really, because RB is a good agent of change."
Vic, I have no quarrel with you, good Sir knight, but again I ask, "how is RB 'a good agent of change' for NTCC? And how did he 'stick his neck out' for anyone besides Kekel? I see him stick his neck out continually on this blog for Kekel but not for the little people in NTCC. And as I have said before, I am quite sure it was Briggs that was calling a woman stupid on Kekel's blog for 'sticking her neck out' to point out that the NTCC promoted things that caused her to make decisions that she believed negatively affected her family.
This is a great mystery to me. I have asked this same question to Jeff over and over, and I keep getting no response from Jeff. I asked Briggs and he didn't deny it (about calling the woman stupid and any others who followed Davis' council). I only remember Briggs making negative comments about people who seemed to have legitimate grievances.
Briggs made some super general statement on his blog about having questions about the why's and wherefores of the org (something to that extent). That is so general a statement and lacks any substance of anything. I don't think Briggs is any agent of change. He has stood up to no one in my opinion. He continues to defend questionable practices of the NTCC and that's all I see. Is there some secret I am not aware of?
Can anyone anywhere bear witness to Briggs' 'sticking his neck out' for anyone besides the Kekels and Davis and Co.?
Totally bewildered (Kris)
"That's a good thing really, because RB is a good agent of change."
ReplyDeleteI didn't say that; I quoted someone else. Check the thread again. I don't think RB will be bringing change at all; he just brands himself as someone who is not 100% "loyal," to the "man of God" and as I've said, his kind of dissent wouldn't have been tolerated for five minute twenty or thirty years back. Now they tolerate him not being totally in the boat, but that doesn't mean that they're going to change just because he "stuck his neck out." They only even tolerate his actions for a couple of reasons: it helps spin them as far more tolerant than they actually are or ever have been, and they're also desperate for faithful contributors. Things aren't as flush these days.
I remember what RWD taught us in one of his "church building" classes. He said that preachers need to hesitate before they run a tithe payer off, and they need to think hard before doing so about how they will replace the income to the church that will be lost. They don't have as many experienced pastors to send out to shore up works when other ministers wake up and cut loose from the millstone that they've become. No doubt they don't see a replacement anyplace convenient for the dollars that Robert brings to the table. So the put up with his irritating but basically toothless criticisms. He's no more than a useful idiot to them.
RW genuinely does look at the church as a business, and has been upfront about admitting it. It's all about dollars and cents, which is why they want to have a half dozen services a week--the plate will be going around, along with a potent reminder that "all Christians pay tithe AND give offerings."
Vic,
ReplyDeleteSorry for misquoting you. I still don't see how some people think that Briggs is somewhat of a friend to the oppressed of NTCC. He says nothing of the sort. I see him as a man who is very much loyal to NTCC, but has confidence that he can make a change in NTCC. What changes he wants to make in NTCC remain a mystery however. No one seems to know what he said that he wanted changed in NTCC, including me, and I frequented the ministers' blog, too. I remember seeing Briggs' name on a few entries and he seemed like a loose cannon. His remarks were wild and I sensed an overly zealous "I love Mike Kekel" spirit about him. He seemed to be trying even back then to prove how loyal he was and how against the "exers" he was. He didn't strike me as a balanced man, but as an eccentrically loyal diehard company man. People like Kinson and others would chime in now and then with simple accolades and cheers of encouragement to Kekel, but Briggs just seemed like he was trying to feed him cheese by the pound. I wonder if he has a t-shirt that says, "Mike's #1 FAN!"
Vic said...
ReplyDeleteI remember what RWD taught us in one of his "church building" classes. He said that preachers need to hesitate before they run a tithe payer off, and they need to think hard before doing so about how they will replace the income to the church that will be lost.
Jeff said...
That is so sick!!! That makes me want to puke. Even though I've known that, reading it makes for such a hard to swallow. When I left the church in Atlanta for the church in Columbus, Denis and Hunt were laughing about how Mayers must have felt about loosing his biggest tithe payer. I know I paid more tithe than anyone else in the Atlanta church and for that matter, probably in the Columbus church also. I had my military retirement and a decent job that paid well.
For the people reading this blog, read this and read it good! If you are not a tithe payer in the NTCC, you mean "NOTHING" to the NTCC leadership. I wish this blog would allow me to bold the "NOTHING" and make the font bright RED. You see an NTCC pastor won't even allow himself to even think well or fondly of you until which point in time you start paying tithe. Paying tithe is absolutely the area that the NTCC leadership focuses the most attention.
Pastor Briggs will buck the NTCC system, (rightfully so) on many topics but he is loyal at preaching the whole tithe and offering thing with every last breath in his lungs. If you'll notice based on the discussions on this blog, he won't waiver on that subject. I know another NTCC pastor who is out west, who I've talked to a few times, who is the exact same way. He'll question the NTCC way of doing things but he'd protect the doctrine of tithing with his life.
RWD has done his job and done it well. If there is one thing he has convinced his pastors, it's that the church members need to be coughing up their money. I know why that is.
RWD and his pastors may be different in many ways but the one thing they both "CLEARLY" maintain is that a big source of their income if not all, is the people, and that is the main fact my friends that skews their spiritual judgment. Everything they do is motivated by "TITHE".
Whether they run someone off or not; "TITHE".
Whether they consider someone faithful;
"TITHE".
Whether or not someone can conduct song service or take up the offering;
"TITHE".
Whether or not they will sort of let someone slide with the rules and standards;
"TITHE".
Is God like that? Paul didn't even accept any monetary support from the Corinthian church and you expect me to believe that God is like that? Not even. RWD has created a money hungry group of pastors and they think they are doing Gods will. The NTCC has used some sriptures that don't even apply to tithing like 1 Cor 16:2 and these NTCC pastors have bought off on it hook line and sinker.
"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith" 1 Tim 6:10.
According to Bible standards, (and I didn't write it so don't get mad at me, ha, ha,) these NTCC pastors aren't even saved. They've erred from the faith with this one.
Jeff
Kristofer Moore said:
ReplyDelete"Can anyone anywhere bear witness to Briggs' 'sticking his neck out' for anyone besides the Kekels and Davis and Co.?"
Don and Ange said:
I disagree with much of what RB says but he is unique in that he is the only ntcc minister that posts using his identity. Not sure if that constitutes "sticking his neck out" but it is something that nobody else is willing to do. I know that back in the day, if somebody even entertained the idea of participating in a forum such as this they would have been castigated.
Statements made by RB on this blog may be considered by the ntcc to be those of a traitor. I've seen people, (regular church members) run off for less than this.
"thank you for your honesty. I do see things differently. Maybe I am in darkness... pray for my enlightenment if so."
A quote from RB. I see RB as someone that realizes there are many legitimate complaints on our side but doesn't want to throw away twenty three years of his life. There are also many logical points that we make that he disagrees with.
I can't take sides with RB but I do think that as an ntcc'r he goes through the same battles that many before him have gone through. Some leave and some stay. I hope that his participation on this blog will make his pastorship slightly more tolerable to his members than what we have experienced. My opinion is that in the long run people are done much more harm than good by the ntcc. Even if RB is not demanding or controlling and allows his congregation to enjoy their salvation, the next minister that comes in could be an abusive jerk and run most of them off. If they go to bible school, they will also be indoctrinated into a bunch of rules and policies that have nothing to do with Christianity.
Saying all this, I wish more people like RB would come to this blog and post. Usually when RB posts the blog is alive and engaging. I know it seems like much of what we say to him goes in one ear and out the other, but if you go back and look at many of his comments he will concede that we have been right about some things.
Not sure if this answers your question Kris, and you make some very brilliant points on this blog. If you look at kekel's blog, he screens everyone and only posts comments on those he thinks he can answer. You don't see any ntcc'rs going on his blog and saying anything other than "God bless you sir". Just felt like weighing in on the subject. This is opinion only coming from somebody that has been back and forth with RB on many subjects. During one big argument it seemed like we were at each others throats and but Jeff stepped in and said something to someone that just blew us all away, on both sides. Things kind of smoothed out and have been fairly "civil" as RB requested.
It's a two way street. I have brought up some pretty difficult questions and although I didn't agree with his answers and may have even thought that some of them were pretty lame, at least you get answers. The ones that don't give answers are the ones that should. Where are the board members? Why don't they give explanation for what they do? Do you think rwd would ever entertain questions such as we ask? What about olson or ashmore? johnson? At times kekel has but most of what he does is for damage control only, and he now responds by saying he will answer our questions on the day of judgement.
What doesn't go over well is when people come here and preach at us like we are still in the ntcc.
Don and Ange
When you ask RB a question he gives you a well thought out answer, not some "script". Even though you may not agree, he does show a measure of intelligence and sincerity.
ReplyDeleteIt's true. The fact that RB even posts on this blog revealing his identity is sticking his neck out. I know of another time where he stuck his neck out also. There have been times where RB did agree with some of disputes that many of us have with the NTCC.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is you can't expect the guy to totally take our side of the issues for two reasons. One because he is still with the NTCC and two because he doesn't always agree with us and I wouldn't expect him to. He often doesn't agree with me nor I with him. I'll guarantee that would change some if he left the NTCC.
Jeff
Kris you are wrong I never told a woman to shut up. My wife told a preacher to though. I told a woman to put up her sword when she thought I was saying I knew more about the bible the pastor Davis. Don't worry I copied all of my conversations on that site and have them to this day.
ReplyDeleteYour assessment of me is noted I however see you as someone that has spent your life trying to be viable. You want to matter but can't find a niche. Even here you can't get the support you so desperately seek. It's like you are verbally throwing a chair and no one seems to really notice.
RB said:
ReplyDelete"Even here you can't get the support you so desperately seek."
Don and Ange said:
I have to say, RB, that Kris has made some very valid points and he says many things that make a whole lot of sense, and that's not to impugn your opinions. We are on different sides of many issues than you are RB, but Kris often brings out many points that are indefensible about the ntcc. In the recent thread relating to being single in the ntcc, he brought a lot of light to the manipulation that takes place in the lives of singles in the ntcc. I know what he said was true, because I was also on the receiving end of the ntcc celibacy policy and was not allowed to talk to single women on many occasions.
Many times Robert we were deprived by the ntcc of a normal, healthy Christian life. I'm glad things worked out for you and hope that you are at a place where you are satisfied with the way things are going in the ntcc. I do not think that Kris is "throwing around spiritual chairs and nobody is listening". Many people have listened to him and his comments have provoked a lot of good conversations on this blog.
Don and Ange
Briggs,
ReplyDeleteYou seem incapable of holding a conversation with someone. I will try to explain something to you. I don't want to talk to you. I am not even addressing you in my past comment.
I don't know if Briggs is on some sort of strong pain killer right now or what, but he said that I am wrong, and that he never told a woman to shut up. What I had said was that I am pretty sure he called a woman STUPID, not that he told a woman to shut up. This is not the first time he has made a "mistake" like this and answering tough questions.
So, I don't know if this is his "Clintonesqe" way of saying that he didn't do something without lying, or he is pretending to be stupid.
I watched a man fumble one time in some kind of meeting in Missouri. It was years ago. It was open to the public. It was either their congress or House of Representatives. But the Republican was talking to the Democrat, and he was just nailing the Democrat to the wall with good valid points. The Democrat began to look very stupid as he began to say that he was not aware of all the facts about what the man was talking about. The Republican told the Democrat that he had already explained it all to him, and then he made a profound statement to that Democrat. "I can explain it to you, but I can't UNDERSTAND it FOR you."
After that, a man told me that the Democrat was filibustering. He knew well what the Republican was talking about, but didn't want to answer him, so he pretended to be stupid.
I have little respect for Briggs. He brings nothing to the table but filibustering in my opinion. I wish HE would just shut up!
RB said...
ReplyDeleteYour assessment of me is noted I however see you as someone that has spent your life trying to be viable. You want to matter but can't find a niche. Even here you can't get the support you so desperately seek. It's like you are verbally throwing a chair and no one seems to really notice.
Jeff says...
He gets much support from me. I don't know about this whole "shut up business" but that is between you and him. He makes many valid points and his opinion is quite viable here. I can't say I agree with everything he writes but I don't expect that he agrees with everything that I write either. I wouldn't expect him to and that is not what this blog is all about. It's an open blog where most everyone is welcome unless they get too carried away and I'm about as bad at that as anyone. Kris and I certainly agree about one thing. The NTCC one seriously messed up church if that is what you want to call it. Many think it's more effectively described as a cult and I tend to agree.
When my associated send me this story, no one should be able to deny just how messed up the NTCC is. No one with a conscience.
Jeff
Don,
ReplyDeleteIn response to what you said...
"I know that back in the day, if somebody even entertained the idea of participating in a forum such as this they would have been castigated."
I say this: how do you know that Kekel didn't put Briggs up to this? Jeff's Blog is a viable source being used by many ntccers including ministers. They have to deal with it in some way, right? It is a viable force to be reckoned with by Kekel and Davis. Are they above commissioning someone to come on this blog to defend their pernicious ways?
See, Kekel or Davis or Olson won't come on here, because it would be catastrophic to NTCC. It would legitimize this blog. I would guess that NTCC practices a policy with those that oppose them that they say the U.S. government practices with terrorists. They say that the U.S. won't talk with terrorists because it would legitimize them.
So, if they can just send a small-time pastor on here whose image is expendable and does not officially represent the leadership of NTCC, but could defend their policies this (if he could actually pull it off) would be advantageous to Davis and Kekel.
See, if Kekel comes on here, I am pretty sure he will put his foot in his mouth, lie, filibuster, look silly, etc. If this happens on an open forum there will not be much he can say afterwards to cover up his mistakes. But if Briggs comes on here and makes a fool of himself like he did trying to defend NTCC's tithing policy based on misinterpretations of the Bible, then we all understand that he is not an official representative of the policies and procedures of NTCC.
I don't think Briggs would have lasted this long on here without getting scolded for it unless it was sanctioned by them, even in the new NTCC 2.0 version.
Exactly, Jeff. I don't agree with all of what you say, but I see the reason for this blog. I apologize to you for what I said some time back about "moving on." I think if someone feels like that is what God wants them to do, then they should, but if he wants them to stay here and learn more before "moving on" that is great too. I think my desire to move on may have been a little premature. It is not that quick that we just move on from something that controlled us for so long. It takes support from others who have also been there and can verify that you are not just "having a pepsi with the devil." I hope to move on some day and focus more on my studies, but I think I need to get some things off my chest first, and I admit I appreciate the support from this blog.
ReplyDeleteI don't look at this blog as being just a place to vent anger, but a place of moral support for those who have been wounded by oppressors and users.
See, this is why I can't stand Briggs. He comes on to this blog promoting the idea that we are just a bunch of renegade angry preachers and he tries to kill the spirit that this blog is truly about (correct me if I'm wrong). I applaud you Jeff for being the opposite of Kekel in allowing Briggs to post on here, but I think for the sake of those who have been hurt by NTCC, Briggs needs to be upbraided sharply. People come on here looking for help and they have to read garbage coming from some NTCC propaganda promoter.
Jeff is a bigger man than either Kekel or Briggs. Neither of them let anyone else post anything on their blogs contrary to what they write. Briggs comes on here and abuses this privilege here that he and his mentor deny everyone else. He should be more respectful to the feelings of people who feel they have been used. Instead he comes on here calling people "bozo" and saying they are "stupid."
You didn't tell someone to shut up, Briggs? I am telling you- SHUT UP!
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteIf that warrants a warning from you for not being civil, I apologize in advance. I don't know if you have a "3 strikes and you're out" policy, but if so I may just use my last 2 on Briggs.
Kris said...
ReplyDeleteI say this: how do you know that Kekel didn't put Briggs up to this? Jeff's Blog is a viable source being used by many ntccers including ministers. They have to deal with it in some way, right? It is a viable force to be reckoned with by Kekel and Davis. Are they above commissioning someone to come on this blog to defend their pernicious ways?
Jeff said...
I don't know about Pastor Briggs but I'll guarantee that what you just wrote has crossed my mind. Even though I don't think this is the case with Pastor Briggs, having been duped by the NTCC leadership once, I wouldn't put it past him. The fact is it doesn't matter one way or the other. Pastor Briggs' presents on this blog certainly hasn't helped the NTCC. If his presents has helped the NTCC's cause, it has hurt the NTCC just as much if not more and that much I'll guarantee.
After my experience with the NTCC, I don't trust much of anyone any longer and certainly not a Christian pastor. What did Christ warn us of?
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
1 Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Christ and John didn't have these verses added to the Bible if it wasn't a concern. I'd trust a whole lot of sinners before I'd trust just about any NTCC pastor or any other pastor for that matter this day in age. Most pastors this day in age are interested in one thing. $$$$$$$ and you better believe it and I work to hard for mine just to give it away to some crook. I put Grand Kekel through grade school and high school at about $20,000 a year and I don't plan to make that mistake again. I won't be putting him through college. Actually the sick part is I probably will. No doubt Kekel invested some of the money that I gave to the NTCC. They are good at investing money so the money that I gave will be supporting some crook for many years to come. Excuse me for a moment but I got to throw up.
Jeff
I see Briggs as someone trying to get promoted in NTCC and I see him as representative of the NTCC and it's policies - on this blog.
ReplyDeleteKris said...
ReplyDeleteJeff, If that warrants a warning from you for not being civil, I apologize in advance. I don't know if you have a "3 strikes and you're out" policy, but if so I may just use my last 2 on Briggs.
Jeff said...
Bro, you're entitled to a 100 strike rule here so you've got 98 to go. Use them sparingly. Ha, ha. You are welcome here my friend but so is Pastor Briggs. I desire to be different than the NTCC. Unlike the NTCC, opinions from all people to include Pastor Briggs are welcome around here. We many not agree but they are still welcome. For decades the only opinion welcome in the NTCC was RDUB's.
Kris, you and I are cool. This blog needs you just as much as it need anyone else to include me and I mean that sincerely. A blog like this won't work without other getting involved. You had some seriously eye opening story's yourself. Didn't you used to fix garage doors and didn't you get duped by the NTCC with one such repair?
Take care.
Jeff
Kris.. why not come and make me?
ReplyDeleteYou very bold from across the sea. Or the back of the room for that matter. You hurl insult from a distance like Doeg the Edomite. And you run kind of like the Jerry Lewis.
ReplyDeleteHow's your online family ministry going? Hey, you could give it a name like "Cross Chat" or may be "Distance Devotions by Kristofer Mooooooore".
Ok, Jeff... thanks for that! :)))
ReplyDeleteYa, I guess I should tell the story again. I think I should not have deleted it before.
This is the story of how I got hoodwinked by Gesang, the reptile merchant. I came back to Graham and got a job working as a garage door tech. I was approached by Gesang who had never approached be before except to make fun of my nose being so large (as far as I can remember). All of a sudden he was very interested in my personal life, smiling and talking. I was taken aback, but I just assumed that he must really be a nice person and that the ministers just reserve their nice conduct toward us young ministers when we return from the field.
Not long after that, I received a call from him asking me if I could do a repair for him on one of Davis' rental houses. The call came about maybe 9am on a work day. I would usually be home about that time waiting for the first trouble call to come to me from my boss. We were consistently busy, but the work day usually didn't start until around the time that Gesang had called me.
He asked if I was working that day. I told him not yet, and I tried to explain to him what I just typed above, namely that this didn't mean that I needed work right now. We were busy, and in fact, there was a good chance that I would have work very soon even that day.
He proceeded to say that they needed a garage door spring replaced at Bonko. I told him I would be happy to do that for him ON MY FREE TIME. I said that the boss let me use his work truck ON MY FREE TIME. He told me that this was not what he was talking about and that if there was no other brother "in the kingdom" that could fix garage doors now but me, and that if he was going to pay someone he would rather pay a brother.
I took this to mean that he was not worried about getting the job done cheap, and I really respected him for that, and so I just took this as a typical job for my boss, and I would use the boss' truck and charge him around the same rate as I would charge another customer if I was on my boss' time doing work for my boss.
The reason I made this deduction was because I tried to explain to him that I could do him a favor if it was on my free time, but he said he wasn't talking about that and that he wanted to PAY a brother for services rendered. Who would come up with a different conclusion than I did?
I left for Graham in my boss' work truck and on the way there, I got a call from my boss saying he had a job for me to do. I told him I already had a job and I told them I was on my way. I went to Graham and did the spring job. It was a job that should bring in over $200. I got done and gave Gesang a price of maybe $175. He told me, I don't think so, Brother Moore. If we are going to do this it has to be a blessing to us as well as you. I thought, well, I will just take whatever loss I incur from this, but God knows. I said, how much do you want to pay me? He said, how about I give you a hundred dollars?
A HUNDRED DOLLARS??? I had never taken so little an amount for a spring job. That was a ridiculous amount to offer.
I thought great... what am I going to do now? I just installed the part and I have another customer waiting. I could either take the time to remove the spring or just take the money and go to the next job. I chose to take the money and just get out of there.
My boss called telling me he had another job on top of that one, and I called him later, and as I recall, he and another guy had to go and do one of the jobs because I was so late.
So I got paid peanuts for one job, lost another job, and later on my boss told me I owed him for that job because we don't charge that little of an amount for HIS springs.
I tell you, Jeff, I don't think those folks care if you lose your job trying to help them build their houses.
Kris.. why not come and make me?
ReplyDeleteHahahahahaha... shut up.
Kris said,
ReplyDeleteJeff,
If that warrants a warning from you for not being civil, I apologize in advance. I don't know if you have a "3 strikes and you're out" policy, but if so I may just use my last 2 on Briggs.
this is starting to feel "weird"!
Oh, ya... the end of the story...
ReplyDeleteSo, when Gesang paid me for the job, he told me that he was only paying me a little bit, because he was figured that since I wasn't doing anything that day I should be happy to even have that little bit that he paid me.
I didn't bother reiterating what I had just told him over the phone, because I could tell that he was feeding me some line, much like Briggs saying "I never told a woman to shut up" when I never said he did. I said he called her stupid.
Nice try, Gesang and Briggs. You both are being EXPOSED!
Why do I continually berate Briggs? Because he is the only one man enough to come on here and TRY to step in the ring and defend NTCC's policies.
ReplyDeleteIf Kekel mans up to the challenge, I will probably dish out the same chastisements to him, too. But as it stands, Briggs is my only punching bag right now. Sorry, Briggs. This is not a physical fight, but a fight of truth against lies, good vs. evil, light vs. darkness. And where the light shines, the darkness must flee. Your cover-ups and lies are being exposed, NTCC representative.
Jeff said:
ReplyDelete"I don't know about Pastor Briggs but I'll guarantee that what you just wrote has crossed my mind."
Don and Ange said:
Ange and I have discussed this at length and still haven't ruled this possibility out. I have to agree with you Jeff. If RB is here at the ntcc leadership's bidding, he's doing more harm than good. The only time I think that he benefits the ntcc is when we are talking about the 279k and he comes in and changes the subject.
Much of what anyone says in the ntcc is pretty damaging to them. When kekel used to address us on his blog he would help us (Xers) win our arguments and he would make it easier for us to catch him lying.
I do not think that RB is the best plan that the ntcc can come up with to fight against us. How about it Robert? Do you want to weigh in on this? Would you lie for the ntcc? I don't think so. Do you come into this forum at the ntcc's bidding or do you participate on your own? It's a fair question. I will probably take you at your word unless you show me otherwise.
In another world, I could be friends with RB but in this life the least I can do is be civil. I know from the experience of being on both sides, that it's easy to get passionate about things. When I was in the ntcc, I was a Yes man to the max. I did everything expected of me and asked God to forgive me if I had a bad thought about any pastor or minister in the ntcc. If anyone tried to attack my brethren or pastor I would stick up for them, right or wrong.
I too, was burned by the ntcc. Burned out. They used up every last drop of energy that I had and when there was nothing left, I left. There was no funeral for me, nobody cried or lost any sleep. Just another soul lost forever, no big deal. That's how it was and that's how it still is. If you think rwd or kekel or anyone else cares about you and loves you, stop paying your tithe and see how long their compassion holds up.
The only reason I try to be civil with RB and others is that I don't want to treat them like I was treated. If they come in here and try to use this as a pulpit to blast us, I will fight back with both barrels blazing. If they want to have an intelligent conversation and it's not beneath them to hear our side than I think it's to our advantage to hear them out.
Don and Ange
Just like Briggs wanting to fight me when I pointed out that he calls people who are hurt by NTCC "stupid," the people who chased me when I threw the chair did not have anything to discredit what I said about the rich not helping the poor. I said what I said about Davis and then I threw a chair, because I was not interested at that point in their answers to me. It was meant to be a rebuke to them.
ReplyDeleteI told Briggs he calls people stupid for feeling like they were abused in NTCC and then I said I wish he would shut up, because I don't particularly care what he says in defense of his statements. I am not drinking anymore Kool-Aid, Rep. Briggs., Ambassador for Kekel and Davis.
That garage door story is telling. Typical NTCC trickery. You do a job for them and they don't want to pay a fair wage. When Gasang said if he had to pay someone, he'd rather pay a brother that is not what he really meant.
ReplyDeleteWhat he meant was if he had to try and swindle someone he'd rather try that on a brother because he knew it wouldn't work on anyone else. Someone else would have charged him $200 and he would have had to pay it and he knew it. Just like RWD he took advantage of a brother. RWD does it all the time. RWD is only interested in surrounding himself with people he can take advantage of.
This applies to everyone other than his family. He takes advantage of people so he can give to his family. RWD takes advantage of everyone. He is such a crook. So is Gasang and he proved that with the stunt that he pulled on Kris. He really put Kris in a pickle. I wonder if people in the NTCC advocate that kind of conduct from their ministers? Survival of the fittest hey? Is that what Christianity is all about? So I suppose that was Kris' fault. I tell you where the fault lied with Kris. Trusting old crooked Gasang. He should have made Gasang agree to a price before going anywhere near that house and then made him pay in advance.
Gasang would have been insulted but oh well. Gasang being insulted would have been better then Kris getting took. There are two things you never do in this world. You don't trust an NTCC minister and you don't mess around with Jim.
Jeff
Ya Jeff, and when they wanted me to install a door for them, and I told them I wanted them to give me a w-9, he said they weren't going to give me one.
ReplyDeletePut up kris, where did I call someone stupid for leaving?
ReplyDeleteAnd kris, its an I9 and a w4 not a w4.,
ReplyDeleteWell my bad, you are right on that one kris
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteKris,
ReplyDeleteYou need to stop making this so personal with Briggs. He is in NTCC, he is being honest as far as we know and as far as he is concerned. You are really making the exers look bad, you should be a better example of true christianity than Briggs and not trying to start personal trouble with him all the time...settle it down, make your points in an intelligent manner and stop being so emotional. Your obviously an intelligent guy, use your intelligence for good.
2Timothy 2:24-26 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.
TB
Having said all that, RB made it personal as well when he wrote: "why not come and make me". The fact is Kris got used by Gasang which was the point of his whole story. There is one trend that I see reoccurring. It seems as though someone (not always the same person) is frequently getting these good stories severely sidetracked. Kris writes about a garage door and a W-9 and the next thing you know we are way off track.
ReplyDeleteHere was the case in this perticular occasion: RB said...
Put up kris, where did I call someone stupid for leaving?
Jeff said...
I don't want to delete comments but when a good story comes out like the one that Kris wrote, I'm not interested in petty rhetoric. I have to pay closer attention to this because as I think about it, I've seen this happen on quite a few other occasions as well. If I delete comments it's not personal but I will do so if the comments become a distraction to the focus of the topic or story.
I will pay MUCH closer attention to this and see if we are getting side tracked. Once again Kris, I appreciate your input. Having said all that Pastor Briggs isn't the focus here, the NTCC is. He just happens to be one of the NTCC's representatives. A small slice in a big pie.
Jeff
Jeff
Kris, the more I think about it and look at some of the previous threads, I have to say that maybe you are right. It seems like RB shows up whenever he is needed by the ntcc. When there is a hot topic like the 279k, here comes RB to change the subject. When Matt Reed joined in, RB would jump in to discredit him. If you look at many of the threads that RB participated in, he usually changes the subject or interjects something to discredit people.
ReplyDeleteWhat say you RB? Are you sincere? I've tried really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.
RB said: "why not come and make me".
Is that what they teach you in the ntcc?
Don and Ange
Give me a break I have not said anything for two weeks and so what does Kris do try to start up on me then when I answer his insult you think I am ntcc KGB get real read the thread and see how I was provoked
ReplyDeleteIn the flim flam thread RB was getting his butt handed to him about the escrow and the song books and he changed the subject to discredit Matt Reed. We were having a really good discussion about one of the biggest financial revelations of money given by GI's to a work in Texas in an escrow fund that nobody knew they were giving to and nobody knew how much was in it until MDR found out there was 279k in it.
ReplyDeleteNot only does RB change the subject but he also discredits MDR by calling him a liar in the Henry rifle scandal. This got people away from the 279k and we never really got back to it in depth. There also was a bible school student that chimed in to discredit MDR. Perhaps this was orchestrated in Graham also. How often does a bible school student come on the blogs and post? They did not want anyone talking about the 279k because it stunk really bad. They don't want people asking where their money is going. They don't want people to realize that much of what they give goes into an escrow and that those funds will not be available to the local pastor to use as he sees fit for the purpose that they were reportedly intended to be used for.
MDR had a royal flush in his hand and RB could only counter with the "dead man's hand" - (aces and eights). But he changed the subject. What say you RB?
Kris you definitely hit the nail on the head. I was beginning to play along with RB's game. You try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but you have to question their motives. We know what the ntcc is all about. Is it beneath them to designate an individual to distract and disrupt when things start hitting them close to home?
Don and Ange
TB,
ReplyDeleteIn response to what you said:
I will take what you said with a grain of salt. The point of this blog is to expose the shenanigans of NTCC. Briggs is a walking shenanigan. He is a redneck masquerading as a man of God. I viewed Kekel's blog numerous times. Briggs was a jerk on that blog and he has been a jerk on this one. He's a jerk. Look at the entry that Don and Ange just posted. He is trying to subvert the intent of this blog. I don't want to make friends with Briggs. Jeff has been more than cordial towards him. He monitors this forum like some spy from NTCC. The moment someone posted some comment about his church recently he posted a reply to that person I think the same day in which he called the person "stupid." He was on Greg Shunk like "white on rice" (his words) when he posted something about his blog a long time ago, too.
Don't fool yourself. Don't just assume that Briggs is some floundering fence straddler. Think about it. Who else posts on here as an NTCC minister as often as him? And none of the top three has even approached him about it? He didn't get blasted at the April Conference for it?
Like I said before, this blog is succeeding in exposing NTCC. Greg and Deborah were very busy and understably so. Their posts were not very frequent. Tracy's blog is down. I don't know what happened to Factnet. This is where it's at as far as exposing NTCC goes. You really think Briggs is some fence-straddler weighing all the facts and deciding if he should quit NTCC? I don't think so. I don't look at him as some innocent bystander. The part where I told him to shut up- Sorry for that, Briggs. That's about as far as it goes.
Don and Ange, you just hit another.
ReplyDeleteBriggs may not have said anything for 2 weeks, but as you can see he is monitoring this blog. If I mention his name he is on me like "white on rice." If someone exposes Kekel or Davis like MDR did (as Don and Ange pointed out) I am sure he will be chiming in to subvert the discussion again. I'm trying to chase him away. He even wanted us to go through him from now on and let him act as some mediator between exers and Davis and Kekel. Like we need to hear some clintonesque political answer from Olson or Kekel. I have taken questions to Olson before.
ReplyDeleteI asked Olson about the land deal with Kekel... the answer... Now, you know Rev. Kekel has been a blessing to this organization and helped it to make money.
I told him the money for Rodrigues to buy a car wasn't used for a car and then he is not even there in Panama anymore. He said, now, you know you didn't have to give to that. What kind of answer is that?
More like an admission of guilt than a good explanation. You know you didn't have to be a part of our shenanigans. Nobody forced you to believe that we were really going to use the money for what we said it was for.
There's no need for a mediator- just exposure!
It was like he was saying, don't post here where everyone else can read it. Take your issues to ME, and I'll just be the one to talk to Kekel and Davis about it. Sorry, no compromise. No deal. Expose, expose, expose.
ReplyDeleteAny time that a scandal breaks forth RB is there to discredit the source. Watch out Jeff when you break this story. I can just about predict what will happen. It might not be briggs this time because he's been called out for it, but it might be someone anonymous. One or two things will happen. Somebody will try to discredit them as they did me and others. If the topic gets hot someone will try to change the subject. This is what happens every time something new breaks.
ReplyDeleteWhen we broke the story about the three homosexual pastors in the ntcc, who was there to defend the ntcc? Not only was RB hell bent on defending the ntcc, he also was hell-bent on placing the blame for these instances squarely on my shoulders. When ever we uncover a nasty truth or point to some unsavory event spurred on by the ntcc, there is RB. He can be counted on to not only defend the ntcc but to discredit, distract and deceive.
If you look at just about any story of impropriety involving the ntcc leaders or pastors, there is RB lurking in the shadows trying to change the subject or discredit the source.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange said...
ReplyDelete"If you look at just about any story of impropriety involving the ntcc leaders or pastors, there is RB lurking in the shadows trying to change the subject or discredit the source.
Don and Ange"
Kris said...
Exactly!
TB, I probably would have agreed with you a few hours ago until I started pouring over some of the previous threads. It's like clockwork with RB. He's there at just the right moment to divert the subject. I felt the exact way that you expressed about RB. You are awesome TB and you speak out against the ntcc like few will dare to.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we are wrong but RB is getting very indignant in his last few statements to Kris. I think RB sees that he is getting exposed along with the ntcc. I would not be surprised if RB uses your comment to try to create more division. That's another thing that I noticed during my research. If he finds anyone in the Xer community that disagrees with each other he tries to use that against them. This is just my opinion TB and in no way am I trying to tell you what to think.
Don and Ange
After reading Don and Ange's comments, I now understand what MDR meant when he pointed out to Briggs that he noticed the way Briggs was able to get the focus of attention on himself. I didn't understand the significance of that statement until just now. MDR was about 3 steps ahead of us on that one, too. I seem to remember Pastor Reed teaching us in the serviceman's home how that Clinton would use the same tactics. If he was in trouble for a scandal, they would bomb some enemy so it would make the headlines and divert the attention of the people OFF of himself and onto something else. It just makes sense that he noticed this feature about Briggs, too.
ReplyDeleteKris wrote..."Like I said before, this blog is succeeding in exposing NTCC. Greg and Deborah were very busy and understably (sic) so. Their posts were not very frequent."
ReplyDeleteKris…I don't thing Deborah and I are any busier than anyone else. From the start Deborah's plan was to post things from NTCC's past that not many others would be aware of, to show NTCC has been the 'bad egg' it currently is from its beginnings. She still has a lot more she could write, but there is enough there for a foundation.
Everyone…like Pastor Briggs, I follow these Blog's closely. I read everything (yes, everything) that is posted. I also write a lot of comments that I never post, either because others make the same points, or the topic changes before I get around to commenting.
Plus, for Deborah's Blog we also like to provide links, and keep them updated (which does take some time), so people can do their own research. I also archive a lot of material (which does take some time); in case any of us needs it later.
I have some topics for Deborah's Blog (tithe being one of them), but things are always going so well here that I have been saving them for a lull (which rarely happens).
Like Jeff wrote about people changing the subject, we don't want Deborah's Blog to be a distraction from the usually focused discussion going on here.
Gregory
You guys make valid points. I agree that Briggs is not sincere, yet I think that you can blast the organization in an intelligent manner which people will appreciate and begin to think for themselves without getting all personal. Maybe it is Briggs intention to make it personal with Kris so as to divert the attention away from the facts? Personally, I think Briggs acts as a goad, somewhat like Pharaoh did with the children of Israel..pushing them to a place where they had to make a decision. His arguments are weak, he is trying to defend a corrupt system and every time he is cornered he says: "So what do you want me to do, go to another church? All churches have some corruption!"- this is a cop out that seems to suggest that it is ok to partake in their evil because "everybody else is doing it"
ReplyDeleteAll I am suggesting is that we provide Briggs with the rope and let him "hang himself" so to speak. His organization is indefensible, there is nothing so abhorrent in the Bible as a false teacher using others for personal gain, I think that has been and will continue to be exposed in a systematic, undeniable manner.
From a psychological point of view it could be that people such as Briggs know they are involved in corruption and lack the faith to move on and start anew. That is totally understandable from a human perspective and can produce a lot of fear on middle aged men who know nothing other than how to scam a small ignorant crowd. I feel for anyone who has poured years into this evil system and feels chained to them both financially and psychologically, may God set them free and restore the years that the locusts have eaten!
Sincerely,
TB
TB said:
ReplyDelete"I agree that Briggs is not sincere, yet I think that you can blast the organization in an intelligent manner which people will appreciate and begin to think for themselves without getting all personal."
Don and Ange said:
I think you are right TB. It's easy to get mad and sometimes they make it personal, so we fight back. Many of us have invested many years into this cult and I probably am just as guilty as anyone for making it personal.
I've entertained the thought that RB was completely insincere and that he was dispatched to deal with the blogs and dismissed the idea. I believe now after looking at some of the previous threads that it is very likely that what he does is under the direction of ntcc leadership. I don't believe any more that he is sincere.
I have asked him and will ask him again publicly a simple straight forward question. Do you participate in this blog at the ntcc leadership's bidding? Do they want you to participate in this forum? Those are two yes or no questions that we would like to hear an honest answer to. RB has been quick to get on and say things like, "why not come and make me?" but will not answer this question.
Saying all that, I do think it is important to keep things civil as RB requested. When we get mad, we start saying things like RB said. It makes us look immature and it also lets them know that they are pushing our buttons.
Don and Ange
Kris said, "The point of this blog is to expose the shenanigans of NTCC."
ReplyDeleteAnd Kris and several others do this extremely well.
LD
"That garage door story is telling. Typical NTCC trickery. You do a job for them and they don't want to pay a fair wage."
ReplyDeleteThis is reinforced by the brochure story I remember, when they approached me to hook them up with my employer to print some church materials when they decided to open the chapel to the public. I got them the info, and warned them that what they wanted was expensive. But it was "nothing but the best for the 'program of God'", and they went ahead and placed the order. But it was a different story when they got the bill; they acted all shocked and wanted me to chisel my boss (who, incidentally, had been very generous to them by donating hundreds of dollars worth of paper and printing stuff) to lower the price (he didn't).
They're the most grasping and conniving swindlers I ever met.
Don, no I do not come here at my leaders request. And no they do not want me to participate at all in this discussion. Is that clear enough. Kris started this by pulling an old thread post and applying it to a discussion it had no pertinance to insight my reaction. I was not a part of this thread so in what way did I need to shut up? If he want to scream in all caps in a threatening way I will come back with a calm deliberate. Responce I.e. if you want me to shut up then come make me.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it funny that if I am so out in left field and illiterate in my response why would he want me silent? Just let me keep proving your point... If after all that is really what my participation does. But it seems more to me like he feels I am a threat that must be silenced.
"But it seems more to me like he feels I am a threat that must be silenced."
ReplyDeleteDon't flatter yourself; it's not likely that any of us consider you a threat. In fact, your arguments generally reinforce what we're saying. Kris is more likely irritated with your continual defense of the indefensible, and tired of hearing you stick up for morally defective "leaders."
And Don, let me ask you something I just thought about.
ReplyDeleteAm I supposed to comment on every topic of discussion? Should every argument made be one of importance to me? In other words do you think I can only participate if I participate in everything?
The small little "He said, she said" conversations are of no concern to me. The bigger things that you seem to think you have "uncovered" as points of my interactions are just that big things that I feel strong enough to wade into this mud bath all over again.
On the thread where I brought up the MDR you will notice that the title was "Yet another Flim Flam and the Pastor that Got Hoodwinked". The subject of the article was 1) the Flim Flam 2) the pastor that was flim flammed. So you see I STAYED ON SUBJECT. MDR was introduced as the subject of the thread.
Jeff and I disagree as to when a person is or is not to be scrutinized. Whith a true court of law witnesses are assessed by both defense and prosecution for their credibility. Even when a person has great information to give, if there life is less then credible the attorney calling them will think twice as to whether or not the will help or hurt the case.
You guys seem to want to pull out everyone.. let them say what they want to say... and never question if they are helping or hurting the cause.
In the Thread referenced above I stated I did not believe everything that was being said completely and someone asked me "WHY" why I wouldn't believe someone of the caliber of MDR. My response was first 1) Matt can write me or call if he really wants to know. 2) WHen your inquiring minds would not be contnet with that and you kept pushing I stated MY PERSONAL REASONS FOR NOT listening to him.
It was just that simple... no more no less. You can agree with my reasons, or disagree with my reasons... but simply put... they are my reasons.
No ole Kris he wants a fight with me. He seeks out argument for the sake of argument and when he can't get me in on an issue that he feels passionate about (like Rev. Gesang) he then goes to an old thread, pulls an old discussion, reposts it, and then takes a pot shot knowing I will respond. Do you blame me?
Your right Kris, when you bring up my name I am on it like white on rice.... why? Because it's my name. Though most of my christian friends feel that they are commanded scripturally to just let it all slide... I do not believe that and so I answer to my own concience and convictions and not theirs. Should a man do any less?
NTCC Plant... P...aaaa....L...e..a..s...e (and yes Kris I know that is not spelled correctly)
If I am the best they can come up with in an anonomous environment then they are hurting in deed.
I on the other hand do see a common thread going whereby your discussions become bland, stale, and similar and then your side specifically target me to draw me back into a fight to try to increase your dialogue... Does anyone out there see this same trend?
Briggs is good on the blog to expose ntcc for what they are. It is always good when we can get folks that still live in this cult to come out and share there so called beliefs. And they actually think there a minister!lol Nobody in ntcc is a minister. Because it is a cult,your all following false teachers. And alot of what you teach is False teaching!
ReplyDeleteMany of us come on this blog to expose ntcc. Not to try and get briggs or any other false teachers goat. Just to get them to come on and talk. Though it is always good when they do! Show the world what ntcc is ALL about!
RB said.
ReplyDelete"No ole Kris he wants a fight with me. He seeks out argument for the sake of argument..."
RB has a point here.
Friday at 7:30 in Graham, Wa.
ReplyDeleteGreg,
ReplyDeleteIn response to what you wrote:
"Like Jeff wrote about people changing the subject, we don't want Deborah's Blog to be a distraction from the usually focused discussion going on here."
I have to apologize to you and Deborah because I had a lot of stories to share when your blog came out and when Deborah was telling some of her stories, I used that time to share mine. The focus should have been on what she had gone through as that was yours and her blog.
I feel pretty bad about that, and I hope she will take the time to share more of her experiences. I noticed she was posting some things here lately, and she said she was going to share something soon on her blog, so I have been checking in over there from time to time for it. Once again though, I'm sorry to your wife.
TB,
ReplyDeleteIn response to what you said...
"I agree that Briggs is not sincere, yet I think that you can blast the organization in an intelligent manner which people will appreciate and begin to think for themselves without getting all personal."
Point well taken. I respect you for your aiming for civility on this topic as well as everyone else. I apologize for getting out of hand. It's just that I felt like there was a wild pig in our living room and no one could see him. Maybe they did, but they just exercised a little more patience and longsuffering than me. I just felt for people like MDR who just left and could use some understanding of what he went through and here is this fellow speaking negatively about him (I am trying to control how I express myself).
I just feel that we should be a little bit more strict with these folks. It's great that they can come on here and speak their mind, but I just remember the censorship while in. If you spoke your mind to THEM, you get hands flying in your face, fingers pointing in your face, etc. Now, we are supposed to just be civil. Yes, we should. As you said, we should heap coals of fire on the devil's head through love. Pray for me.
Don and Ange,
ReplyDeleteIn response to your question posed to Briggs:
"Do you participate in this blog at the ntcc leadership's bidding? Do they want you to participate in this forum? Those are two yes or no questions that we would like to hear an honest answer to."
Those of us who went to Bible Seminary know that it is pointless to ask an NTCC minister for a straightforward answer to a straightforward question.
Their life is a life of secrecy. From the time they check into Bible Seminary, they are trained not to reveal the secrets of the training in their boot camp. They are called "stupid" if they tell outsiders the secrets about how they are yelled at in school and how they are controlled. I even remember MCKekel (that was his username on Factnet anyway) revealing something about how I think they can justify lying. Someone asked him if something was said. He replied, if you mean "was it said in a bad spirit," then the answer is no. In other words, the person said it, but since MCKekel thinks he knows the intents of the heart of the speaker, he can answer, No, it was not said, when it WAS said. See how confused their minds are?
A normal person with a conscience not to lie would say I suppose something to this effect:
He said it but not in a mean way.
Done. You didn't lie, but you explained your side of the story.
Vic wrote:
ReplyDelete"they acted all shocked and wanted me to chisel my boss"
Just a comment on that statement and my garage door story.
This is a prime example of why I see the legitimate purpose for this blog, whether Jeff and I or Vic or Don and Ange, or whoever agree on everything doctrinally or not. That doesn't necessarily matter. They called this House of Collins, but it's not a church. It's a place for me to tell a story and you to tell a story, and we can say, yep.. I'm not crazy, and I don't have a grudge. You experienced the same thing I did.
See, this is why we didn't take the bait from Briggs to go through him as some sort of mediator between exers and Kekel. What good would that do? It only would keep it all swept under the carpet so they could continue using and abusing their positions as so-called men of the cloth.
I'm sorry Pastor Briggs for saying shut up. That was wrong.
ReplyDeleteI will just say, I wish Pastor Briggs would not try to divert the attention to himself when other bloggers like MDR are making valid points like the 279 THOUSAND DOLLARS that he found out was in his church's escrow, but they couldn't get some repairs done on the building that I believe the congregation wanted done, and how when he bought a decent car for himself, he was supposed to feel guilty for it, because he chose to take care of himself instead of investing in a church van. Or like when he was mourning over a brother who died at war, Davis called him up in the middle of the night to play a prank on him to punish him for calling him during his Sunday nap to talk to him about the brother who had just died. Or how about when he said Davis kept pestering him to buy expensive gifts for him?
During times like that, I wish certain people would just keep their comments to themselves if it doesn't pertain to the material being discussed. How's that for civil?
Pastor Briggs has become the topic of conversation here in this blog. Whether intentionally or unintentionally (Pastor Briggs) becoming the perpetual topic has become a distraction. The $279,000 escrow deal was distracted by disputes about a birthday card for RDUB. The garage door swindle was interrupted by someone being called stupid.
ReplyDeleteHere is what I've decided. Oh, and please call me if you have any suggestions about my approach or the direction that I'm taking. I'm absolutely an advocate for advise. I'm not interested in the credibility of people like MDR or Kris being questioned every time they write about another NTCC scandal. I know this isn't the case (and MDR may get a laugh out of this) but I don't care if MDR is like Solomon with 600 wives and a different bed partner for every day of the week. If there was $279,000 dollars in an NTCC account, there is no way they should be encouraging that offerings be taken up for song books, pews, or church signs.
That is crooked and that is the bottom line and as the moderator of this blog I don't care about anything else concerning MDR. The NTCC leadership has been smearing the names of people who have left the NTCC for decades and now the shoe is on the other foot and this is our pulpit and the NTCC is not going to take control of it.
So here is the deal. Let just leave Pastor Briggs alone. It would be fine with me if his name doesn't come up on anymore threads by anyone. I don't expect the guy not to defend himself so if No One attacks him in writing, then he doesn't have to defend himself and in turn I don't expect him to go after anyone else not will I allow it. Good stories are being sidetracked regularly and Pastor Briggs is questioning the credibility of people regularly.
I'll guarantee that RWD wouldn't allow someone to walk into the Graham church and question him. They'd call the police. They control information in the NTCC and they have for years and I'm tired of taking the high ground.
Yes I want an open blog but I'm not interested in the integrity of everyone who leaves the NTCC being question on this blog and I'm not going to allow it. The NTCC leadership has control of it's pulpit and I've got control of this one.
Jeff
You go, Jeff, I wholeheartedly agree.
ReplyDeleteMe, too... Well said, Jeff!
ReplyDeleteJeff said,
ReplyDelete"If there was $279,000 dollars in an NTCC account, there is no way they should be encouraging that offerings be taken up for song books, pews, or church signs."
Larch says,
..................................AMEN!!!
Jeff said,
ReplyDelete"That is crooked and that is the bottom line"
Lurch says,
................................PREACH!!
Jeff Collins for President!!!!
ReplyDeleteJeff said,
ReplyDelete"The NTCC leadership has been smearing the names of people who have left the NTCC for decades and now the shoe is on the other foot and this is our pulpit and the NTCC is not going to take control of it."
Larch says,
.................................AMEN!!!
Jeff said,
ReplyDelete"I don't expect the guy not to defend himself..."
common sense prevails on this one!
Just thought I would share this..
ReplyDeleteI went to a piano lesson with my kids today. They just switched from their Public school teacher to a private teacher who is teaching from a Baptist church here in Houston. So anyway, the teacher was excited to share how that their church is building a new chapel and that they needed a certain amount (2 Million) by Sun. last. When the dust settled they ahd received 3.5 Million in one weeks worth of offerings... kind of makes the 259 seem like chump change.
Just thought I would share this..
ReplyDeleteI went to a piano lesson with my kids today. They just switched from their Public school teacher to a private teacher who is teaching from a Baptist church here in Houston. So anyway, the teacher was excited to share how that their church is building a new chapel and that they needed a certain amount (2 Million) by Sun. last. When the dust settled they ahd received 3.5 Million in one weeks worth of offerings... kind of makes the 259 seem like chump change.
sorry Jeff the first one said it did not go through but it looks as if it did.. and it was missing my initials.
ReplyDeleteRB said...
ReplyDeleteWhen the dust settled they ahd received 3.5 Million in one weeks worth of offerings... kind of makes the 259 seem like chump change.
Jeff said...
Modern day Christianity. They are crooks also. Ha, ha. I just don't advocate that stuff. People can spend their money anyway they want to but I don't nor will I ever advocate taking up special offerings when there is that kind of money in the church account. You may want to consider becoming a Baptist preacher. At least that way no one can call you a hypocrite. Once saved always saved. Unconditional eternal security. Frankly I'm becoming more of a advocate of that than "saved by works" NTCC style.
Jeff
here's another one Jeff!
ReplyDeleteThe local A/G church sent some mail asking for money for their new building fund. In small print on the envelope it said * may divert funds if needed*
smh
smh said,
ReplyDelete''here's another one Jeff!
The local A/G church sent some mail asking for money for their new building fund. In small print on the envelope it said * may divert funds if needed*" smh
Don and Ange say,
That is just what lawyers call "disclosure". It means the A/G knows they can be sued if they misappropriated funds gathered under false pretenses. So they put the fine print 'disclosure' letting everyone know the money may not go to the intended purpose. It's a sneaky loophole way of collecting money for anything without openly publicizing the fact in a straightforward manner. Once disclosure is made, the statute of limitations clock starts ticking. SO people have even less time to act once they realize what is really going on. Watch Erin Brockovich and you'll see how it's done and why.
Regardless of what other churches or crooks do, ntcc is still wrong for goldbricking and gold-digging in the underhanded manner they have been doing things. The ntcc's lack of financial disclosure coupled with their abusively defensive responses to inquiries regarding church finances is a huge red flag! Honest people have nothing to hide and do not bristle when questioned with such a reasonable request about where does the church's money go. People, it is your money. Find out where it is going and what it is being spent on. For all you know davis and kekel could be living it up in Las Vegas, taking cruises, going golfing at the Country Club or spending time at the strip clubs. The fact is YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE BECAUSE THEY HAVE BULLIED YOU INTO SILENCE WHILE DEMANDING MORE AND MORE FROM YOU. That is not Christ-like. Jesus lived a very intimate and transparent life with the disciples. You don't see that with ntcc 'leaders' in Graham. What you do see are 8 foot high privacy fences behind chainlink fences to stop anyone from seeing their million dollar mansions. You see recreational vehicles going around all paid for on your dime with no one explaining where they go or how long they stay or why. You see the 'leaders' living lavish li(v)es of luxury while the other 90 percent of the ntcc's members struggle at or below poverty level. The ntcc 'leaders' refuse to be accountable to you for anything while demanding full accountability from you. God said prove all things. Hold fast that which is good. The secrecy in ntcc is not good. It should stop or the ntcc should be let go out of your life. Don't settle for secrecy shrouding lies. Find out the truth or find a church that is not afraid to admit what they do with your money.
Don and Ange
We see **someone** is once again trying to justify the ntcc's sins by saying other people do it even more than ntcc! Sorry. Wrong is still wrong no matter how many people are doing it!
ReplyDeleteThe fact is ntcc had $279,000 dollars sitting in escrow that the Killeen, TX church members donated. But the ntcc wanted to squeeze even more money out of these people to do something that the $279,000 dollars was collected to cover.
Nobody likes a gold-bricker, especially a religious one!
*****
If you are not familiar with that term, it describes a guy with a pack of cigarettes in his pocket who will try to bum a smoke off of a homeless guy and laugh at the dude for it!
*****
If that is too real for your delicate (in)sensibilities, the bible example would be David the King of Israel stealing Uriah the Hittite's wife from him while Uriah was out fighting David's war for him. God was displeased.
Read II_Samuel chapter 11 and 12 to learn more about it.
Don and Ange
There was a brother in Rev. Annas' church and he was bragging how that Denis came to their church and said that if they could get so many people in service he would stay longer. He had me listening to his story, and I was just getting shocked after each part of the story unfolded. He said Denis would raise the amount after they would reach the previous goal. They finally had gotten something like 500 people in service. I was wondering why Brother Ryan (Burt) wasn't getting surprised by the younger brother's stories. Finally, brother Ryan told me, He's lying. I realized then that maybe there are actually liars in NTCC.
ReplyDeleteThis evening I was discussing with my relative in NTCC the obvious ethical problems involving money. He listened carefully as I went on about Kekels home value, sons education, cars, furniture, illegal property transactions etc. At the end of it all he said "I just cannot accept that, I know Rev Kekel and He is the real deal and a really nice guy, and why should I have envy and emulations in my heart toward him if God has blessed him?"
ReplyDeleteIn vain I attempted to explain how he has been brain washed to automatically condemn his own thoughts when he begins to see the problems. I explained how it is a psychological trick to implant those warnings in advance "Your just jealous, and jealousy if of the devil" so as soon as you begin to question a borg leader you immediately feel condemned and less than a real christian. This is a brain washing tactic so that you will not allow yourself to use critical thinking skills.
Another point I tried to make- Kekel may be a nicer person by nature than Davis (who isn't) yet that does not justify his misuse of God's people, or God's money. If he were truly a good man he would produce repentance and allow God to cleanse him of his greed and pride. People, don't be fooled by these men, they use you for what they can get out of you! When you no longer have any value to them they will begin to treat you very differently.
Don't be fooled by psychological tricks.....The Bible says to "Test all things, hold fast to that which is good"...
test
1 /tɛst/ Show Spelled[test] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the means by which the presence, quality, or genuineness of anything is determined; a means of trial.
TB
Matt Reed said...
ReplyDeleteJeff, did I mention that when arriving at this work, the church needed song books in a bad way. I made the call (I always hated making those stupid calls), asking if we could make the purchase. At this point I didn’t know there was $279,000.00 in the escrow acct. The reply on the other end of the phone was "take up an offering". Fleecing the sheep is Rdub's way.
Briggs said...
"When the dust settled they ahd received 3.5 Million in one weeks worth of offerings... kind of makes the 259 seem like chump change."
Kris said...
Forbes richest man in the world is reported to have a fortune of 53.5 billion dollars. Kind of makes the 3.5 million dollars look like chump change. What have I proved? Nothing.
Cost of 100 hymnals at discounted rate on Christian Book Distributor's website: $699
Amount reported to be in Pastor Reed's church escrow: $279,000
Kind of makes the $699 seem like chump change.
TB said, "Another point I tried to make- Kekel may be a nicer person by nature than Davis"
ReplyDeleteDo you really think so? Kekel scowls, scorns, rants and raves with the best of them. When he acts nice, that's exactly what it seems like, an act. Just saying.
LD
I see both of your points, TB and LD. I noticed how Kekel will say a goofy joke to someone but then when they respond by saying something back, he looks at them like they are strange. He said that the look he uses is effective in defeating people who are against you, but my question is why are you trying to use that method on people that love you?
ReplyDeleteI was bringing a guy who had a mental disorder to church. Kekel taught about something about bringing certain people to church. I asked my lay pastor about the case of our guest, and he asked me to talk to Kekel. I think he was too scared to talk to him, so he threw me under the bus. I went to talk to him. He raised his voice and start saying loudly that he had already covered this. Just then the lay pastor got some courage and defended me because it was his idea in the first place to talk to Kekel. He calmed down and we ended up talking for a while about it, but I didn't really care to talk to him at that point. I wasn't really listening to what he was saying, just to how he had treated me. He didn't even apologize.
ReplyDeleteRev. Malone is a very loyal NTCCer who has enjoyed a decent promotion to assoc at Graham. He told me one time as I was riding with him (I think in a church van) that his wife was in a car accident and it wasn't her fault, but she kept saying, "I'm sorry." He told her, don't say, "I'm sorry," because you are admitting guilt. I thought about the leadership that probably taught him that lesson, and how that they never seem to truly apologize for anything, and I thought, ok, they don't want to admit that they have ever done anything wrong, so that is probably a rule for them- NEVER APOLOGIZE!
ReplyDeleteThere are many poor people in NTCC even if you don't consider any Americans to be poor because they have so many opportunities here (according to Davis). There are plenty of b.s. students in the Philippines that could use financial help, but do you think they get it even when their own pastor advises them to quit their job? Not according to what I have heard from someone who was a b.s. student in the Philippines. They will keep them alive, maybe, by giving them a place to stay, and maybe they get a meal now and then, but that's about it. As McDonald pointed out in a recent conference he had a woman in his church or b.s. who only had enough money for one meal, and they even almost lost her once. NTCC surely doesn't help poor sinners, and doesn't even offer much help to the poorest of their OWN sisters!!
ReplyDeleteNo wonder Reed's church had chump change in comparison to a church which believed in giving to the poor! Once again, I thank Briggs for boldly sticking his neck out (although unbeknownst to him) in showing NTCCers that their org is not of God!
Just think of all the labor that you doest with your hands, NTCC single ministers. I am not addressing the pastors to any large degree, because I just heard about a pastor who sat at home all day doing nothing but reading, and then commanding his helpers to do all kinds of chores for free for him. But if this is not you, pastors, forgive me. I don't mean to judge all of you. I have seen one of them just sit at home on Sunday reading the newspaper for a long time though, and then furthering his studies on computers. I know they have to keep the books straight, but I am pretty sure they pawn that task off on some loyal unpaid helper if they can.
ReplyDeleteI am sure there are some hard-working pastors that get right in there and help their single minister unpaid helpers. But this message is to you who labor so hard and are not blessed. Could it be that you are following Davis' formula (no charity) instead of God's formula for tithing? You reap and lay up in store and get little results. There is nothing but "chump change" in your baskets as Pastor Briggs pointed out) after the smoke clears and it's time to count your blessings. Why do you think the LORD God is not blessing the labor of your hands? Why not follow the example of a blessed church that GIVES to the poor, following the fuller meaning of tithing as laid out in scripture?
And why don't you heed the NT scriptures, too as in James and 1John and Galatians 2?
Gal 2:10) Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
1Joh 3:17-18
17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
James 2:15,16
15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Just one of the things that the baptist church did is that they gave $200,000 to families who asked their church for financial assistance. Their 3.5 million dollars in one church really speaks to me about the evil ways of NTCC who do not believe in giving to the poor. Just look at the condition of their churches. Rev. Reed's church was looking dumpy. How many others are trying to make it happen in little storefront buildings, while this church is prospering while giving immense amounts to the poor. Just the amount that they gave to families asking for financial assistance alone was quite close to the entire escrow account of one of the churches that does not believe in charity (because of their leader's practice).
ReplyDeleteOnce again, here is the link:
http://www.sagemontchurch.org/about/livingproofproject.htm
Eccl 11
1) Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.
2) Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth.
10) And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Here is part of what tithe was used for in the Old Testament (emphasis mine):
28) At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29) And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) AND THE STRANGER, AND THE FATHERLESS, AND THE WIDOW, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; THAT THE LORD THY GOD MAY BLESS THEE IN ALL THE WORK OF THINE HAND WHICH THOU DOEST.
Two points:
1- NTCC models their money extraction off the OT principle of tithe without following the principle that was tied to it in the OT (before grace and mercy). They follow the letter of the law without the love that was even shown under the law before Christ.
2- The formula God gave the Jews was a formula that would bring them blessing. Not simply following the command to pay tithes, but USING THE TITHES TO HELP THE POOR (strangers, widows, and orphans).
Is any of that sinful or wrong? Do monies have to come in from tithes and offerings? NTCC takes rent from servicemen for room and board. What's wrong with offering piano lessons? Kekel has his helpers come over to his house and lets them play basketball on his private basketball court in his backyard. One brother was in a battle about that. He would rather do something spiritual than run around like a kid playing basketball, as he put it. He went to Bible School to be a preacher, not to play basketball. As far as I could tell, this church was not a bible school, just a church. Which is worse? The seminary president having future ministers over to his house to play basketball or having a gym for Christian church members in a local church to play a sport with their brothers? Is it sinful for the church to have piano lessons to outsiders to raise money for the church? What is ethically wrong with that? I merely pointed out that they were doing charity, and that was the first thing they pointed out when I went to the link you sent me to. So, I can do math. One plus one equals 3, I mean 2... ya... and so I did the same math on this situation. They have a lot of money. They give to charity. They have a lot of money coz they don't give to charity... I mean, wait... I mean.. They have a lot of money BECAUSE they give to charity. Ya, that was really hard to figure out. But, see it's not that hard. Even a bipolar case such as me can figure that one out.
ReplyDeleteSo, the point was that Reed was told to take up an offering to buy song books that cost maybe around 700 dollars when he had almost 300,000 dollars in the escrow. If the NTCC's churches are hurting that much that they don't have enough money in their budget to buy song books while Pastor Davis lives in 2 mansions during the year than something is wrong. If Rev. Reed couldn't even get permission to use the church funds in the church he was pastoring to buy hymnals while Kekel has a personal basketball court in his backyard and his grandson allegedly has a swimming pool in his backyard, then something is wrong. All this money is being sent to HQ's week after week in the form of tithes from pastors and their helpers (the full 10 percent) and ten percent of the ENTIRE local church tithes and one local pastor can't even get some hymnals to replace the beat up hymnals. What's wrong with this picture? Where is the money going?
ReplyDeleteWhat a scam! Rev. Reed was working hard paying his own money that he worked on a job to earn to keep this local church afloat, denying himself and his wife most of the luxuries that Kekel and Davis have, although he bought a Cadillac for himself (I am pretty sure out of the money he worked hard for). But after he does all this and he wants to do something good for the church with the money they have raised, he is told that the money does not belong to him, as if he is trying to steal the money and go to Vegas (or build a mansion in Arizona).
ReplyDeleteOk, so if the ultimate care of the church does not belong to the one who is laboring there and spending his OWN finances to support it, who does it belong to? Davis. He is the senior pastor of all the churches. So if your church is falling apart, it is not your fault. It's the senior pastor. And if he cared more about his local churches than he did about buying HIMSELF a mansion and giving gifts to his daughter and son-in-law then maybe your church would have nicer pews, church signs, and hymnals, even buildings. If your senior pastor would care less about flying first class wherever he goes and staying in nice hotels and getting gifts from people and more about taking care of the churches he pastors, maybe your church wouldn't look so sorry. Rev. Reed said Davis put him down saying that Rev. Reed had faith to buy a Cadillac but not faith to fund out of his own pocket a church van. Well, I say, Davis has faith to build mansions and get and give gifts but not much faith to get hymnals for worship and to fix church buildings. What's wrong with this picture?
If Davis is the senior pastor why doesn't he use some of his OWN money to maintain them like he expects the under-pastors to do?
For the record:
ReplyDeleteThe monthly simple interest on $279,000 at 5%=
$1163 per month
But.....they cant afford song books...
Grants tuition was $2000.00 a month and we cant be cutting into that
TB
The other church is totally meaningless, we do not know anything about those people, it could be a health and wealth church for all we know or a cult...it is totally irrelevant and serves no purpose than to become a red herring!
ReplyDeleteTB
I can see RWD now at his summer home in Arizona. Walking around with a T-shirt on and short watching the baseball game lol. He might even wonder in the back yard to do a little Bar-B-qing, all while the slaves, I mean the faithful brethren labor at Graham.
ReplyDeleteI would love to hear Gasangs’ response to the garage door story. I’m sure when people see him now they have to ask themselves did he do that? I’m sure he’s pretty P’d at you Kris. OO well I won’t hold my breath. Mission continue to expose is a GO!!!
ReplyDeleteJeff, I was not the pastor of the Baltimore church. I was the pastor of the church in Cleveland, Ohio. I have requested and been replaced as the pastor here in Cleveland. My wife and I have left NTCC and are looking for a new church. It was a hard decision, but I believe it was the right one. But as you know, I don't considered all of my time with NTCC as bad or wasted. I learned a lot, and there are some pastors that love God and have a love for people and like in other church organizations, there are those that do not.
ReplyDeleteI do not plan to post on this blog, but I will respond to any false accusations by NTCC or questions; if there are any. I doubt that will happen, I don't consider myself important to anyone except the Lord, myself, my wife, and my foster children.
The main reason, but not the only reason that I left was because of all the pressure to prove our salvation by works instead of being saved and kept by the grace and power of God.
They say too often that if you are saved...
You will attend all the services
You will go soul winning
You will pay tithe
You will give in the offering
You will build a church
You will conform to an outward standard of dress
You will put the church first
You will attend conference
You will obey those that have the rule over you
You will go to NTCC
Grace, love, mercy, and personal growth has been replaced by a bunch of do's and don'ts.
God is bigger than any one church organization.
In the short time that we have departed, we have seen how much we had depended on NTCC instead of God to tell us what was right and wrong. We see that many of the policies and rules were just man-made rather than God inspired.
I have forgiven them for any wrong that has taken place. And if I have wronged anyone I ask for your forgiveness. I know some may disagree with that statement, but I must be right with God. I know I have made mistakes as a Christian and Pastor.
As I said, I do not plan to post to this blog, but I am definitely NOT finding fault with you who do. I understand your reasons, but they are not my own. We all have to do what we believe God wants us to do. And in the end he will be the judge.
Bro. Bellamy
I will ask again. Please leave Pastor Briggs out of all discussions here i.e. I don't want him to be the focus. From here on out I will delete all of them in either direction. Do not go after Pastor Briggs' credibility or character and I don't expect him to go after anyone else. Discussions about Pastor Briggs are not going to consume this blog and that is exactly what is happening. This stuff is getting petty and there is an agenda here and Pastor Briggs is not the agenda. Please don't write about Pastor Briggs or defend yourself if Pastor Briggs writes about you. I will delete all such posts.
ReplyDeleteThis is where I draw the line. Thank you.
Jeff
The good news just keeps on coming! Another refugee has breached the chain link fence. Welcome to the real world, Edward.
ReplyDeleteCaptives, join the exodus!
Some of the largest and fastest growing churches in the US are found in Texas -
ReplyDeletehttp://www.outreachmagazine.com/features/3769-Largest-and-Fastest-Growing-Churches-America.html