My wife and I were recently discussing the group of New Testament Christian Churches we were part of in Western Georgia and Alabama. Before fellowship meetings ceased, there would be monthly get togethers between churches in those two states. If you went on the NTCC's official website, and you pulled up Georgia and Alabama, you might think, "Wow, the NTCC has a whole bunch of churches in those two states". Well let me give you a breakdown, based upon what existed around the time of our departure in 2008. Columbus GA, Phenix City, AL had a small group of church members totaling not even 10. Yeah they may have gotten a visitor here and there but there was no more than 10 people who came regularly. I'm sure Hunt has boosted the numbers since Oberhauser, (who failed miserably) left, and that would no doubt make Phenix City the largest church I'm sure out of the churches I will mention. Of course the fact that it's near a military installation doesn't hurt. The NTCC isn't too bad at conning young impressionable, gullible servicemen.
Montgomery AL was originally run by pastor Hunt who left Columbus GA to go to Montgomery because he said that God never called him to Columbus in the first place but then he left Montgomery to go back to Columbus because Oberhauser was failing miserably and I would guess that God changed his mind. Who knows what is going on now in Montgomery but if all the rest of the churches in this area are any indication, I wouldn't guess much.
Atlanta GA (Tucker) was failing so miserably that no one was even coming to fellowship meetings any more. Since then the pastor had to move out of the store front that he'd occupied for around 9 years and move back into a hotel room. Mayers took a church that was pushing nearly 100 in 2003 and he ran it down to basically nothing. He also ran off all his helpers. Now he has only two services, one of which doesn't even start till 1230 on Sunday.
Macon GA was a debacle ran by a guy who initially partnered up with another minister but then they split away from each other almost immediately for reasons unknown (to us anyway). I witnessed RWD talking to the pastor like he was a child one evening in Columbus GA and the pastor frequently talked about how he was struggling. Who knows if that has changed but I doubt it.
Dothan AL was ran by a nice guy who back in the day was also having significant struggles. He got openly reproved by LD Jones during a fellowship service in Columbus because the guy was testifying about how he didn't even know where the money would come from to keep the lights on. LD Jones said that God was bigger than that. Sounds like a thriving church hey? The fact that they didn't have money probably resulted in them being a whole lot more spiritual than those crooks in Graham.
Birmingham AL had experienced a period where they were going through pastors like some people change socks. Every time you turned around the helper was becoming the pastor. Rev Bentley also wound up in Birmingham as a helper because he got sick of being in Atlanta. It wouldn't take a genius to figure out why? Then he left Birmingham to pioneer a church , guess where? Back in Atlanta not terribly far from the pastor he'd left who was still in Atlanta doing basically nothing. Sounds like a spiritually thriving area, hey?
Atlanta GA (Smyrna) is being run by a real nice guy (who I already mentioned) who circumstantially (the last time I knew) was still single and who left Atlanta GA (Tucker) not too many years ago. Now he is being helped by a guy who also left from guess where? Atlanta GA (Tucker). The fact is, those two guys may wind up doing more for God than anyone else in that whole area. They both had enough back bone to leave the same church and move on to bigger and better things. They really might be able to do something for God if they'd leave the NTCC all together. Unfortunately I don't see that happening but I have seen stranger things.
Well there you have it people. Can you spell, dysfunctional"? To make a long story short, the New Testament Christian Church is doing a whole lot of nothing. It's a big smoke screen.
Jeff
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI assume this is not the post (that a person is going to email you) you have been talking about?
Good post though,
Gregory
Also, I assume the reason they no longer have fellowship meetings is so people will have even less knowledge of who has recently left.
ReplyDeleteNo mandatory conferences + no fellowship meetings + no idea who is currently being warehoused in Graham + infrequent updates to the website = no idea who has hemorrhaged out of NTCC
Pretty smart,
Gregory
Pretty devious.
ReplyDeleteWow Jeff, that was a great post. Really like your use of the word dysfunctional. Think we are going make a new thread along those lines.
ReplyDeleteYep, now they have to frequent this site to find out what is going on in the organization!!!
ReplyDeletePraise God!
Classic managing error....limit information!
Kekel may be smarter than Davis, but he is a crafty little serpent and in the end God is going to crush him like he does to all serpents.
Kekel is no different than a tic, sucking the life out of the organism (organization)
The thing with Davis is at least he was a straight up crook, it didn't take to much discernment to figure that out, if you were willing. Kekel is merely the Joel Osteen wanna be, he will destroy ntcc because so many have admired Davis and dont admire Kekel, they know he is a little snake and don't respect him.
TB
Greg said...
ReplyDeleteI assume this is not the post (that a person is going to email you) you have been talking about?
Jeff said....
No this is not it. I'm still waiting.
Jeff
2008... old information. Incorrect information.
ReplyDeleteYou holiness/tithe payer haters never stop do you?
"2008... old information. Incorrect information."
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm sure that Jeff's departure revived the whole Southeast, and now they're busting at the seams.
DS or CS said,
ReplyDelete"Also, I assume the reason they no longer have fellowship meetings is so people will have even less knowledge of who has recently left."
it is to do away with gossipy and alliances between churches.
You holiness/tithe payer haters never stop do you?
ReplyDeleteYou grace haters never stop do you?
"You holiness/tithe payer haters never stop do you?"
ReplyDeleteWe don't hate God's character and version of holiness, just the NTCC pious pharisee version of holiness that only makes you "whited walls" but the inside is full of dead men's bones.
I've often considered why most ntcc churches are so small, even after years in so many cities. This situation is not just in the southeast.
ReplyDeleteIs it the training of the ministers that is ineffective? Is it the heavy handed preachers running everyone off? We know it's said the world doesn't want "holiness" but it's curious that even Graham is not busting at the seams, seeing they seemingly have all the right ingredients to build a successful church. Just asking.
LD
Jeff said...
ReplyDelete2008... old information. Incorrect information.
Jeff said...
What is incorrect? I was part of that whole deal. Tell me what part is incorrect and I'll correct you. Old info is good info. It's not my problem that you are a short term thinker.
Jeff
LD said...
ReplyDeleteI've often considered why most ntcc churches are so small, even after years in so many cities. This situation is not just in the southeast.
Jeff said...
I'm sure that's the case. Three years ago every church I mentioned was struggling. The pastors were running off church members right and left. Jeter had to shut down his church in Atlanta some years ago and he went back to Graham. Oberhauser went back to Graham. Some dude named Gaines left Birmingham and the NTCC. His helper took over as pastor and then he left. Pelmore took over and he was about as friendly as a robot. I don't know what happened to the Colberts in Macon.
Yeah it's old news but it is indicative of the state of affairs within the NTCC. It was just a big mess and there was nothing spiritual about it. Frankly it was a joke.
Jeff
NTCC=a bunch of posers "playing" church
ReplyDeleteJust a heads up. The previous thread is still getting messages.
ReplyDeleteJeff
WHAT??? No Fellowship Meetings? When did this take effect.
ReplyDeleteYou cant be saved if you dont attend fellowship meetings.
On A seperate note, I just bought my wife a Chystler 300 pearl black and Chrome sedan.
I could never afford this if I went to NTCC.
I can drive in CEO style just like Mike!!!
Bro Johnson
Gregory said...
ReplyDeleteNo mandatory conferences + no fellowship meetings + no idea who is currently being warehoused in Graham + infrequent updates to the website = no idea who has hemorrhaged out of NTCC
Pretty smart,
Gregory
Kris said...
Someone said that the fact that Denis did not even make a website was very smart. Kekel helped me find my way out of NTCC when he defended himself for the land gift by posting Olson's generic reason for it, and even telling us where we could read more about it (factnet). Guess where I went right after that?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWe know it's said the world doesn't want "holiness"
Kris said...
Ok... as far as this goes...
NTCC makes the claim that they have pee-wee size churches coz they proclaim and practice holiness and the world doesn't want that. There is a HUGE holiness church in the Philippines. The women have to wear dresses down to their ankles.
The men wear white long sleeve dress shirts (unlike the short sleeve sweaty barongs the NTCC missionaries traditionally sport to preach in.
They believe in holiness and they have a very very large congregation in Manila, much larger than the one in Graham. They have a newer congregation in Cebu, and it is quite large as well. It may be similar to the one in Graham, but the one in Manila is so much bigger. The one in Cebu has not been there nearly as long as the church in Graham. I have seen pictures of the congregation that met in Manila. Just the choir was probably about as big as the CHURCH in Graham. They are huge.
The difference between their pastor and NTCC's? He apparently lives in a simple small house. He has spent so much time on his knees praying they said he had bruises on his knees. (I saw a picture). He is crippled from fasting too long. His ministers follow his example of fasting and praying for the congregation.
I am not encouraging people to do what he did or not to do it, and I am not saying that to be holy you have to or don't have to do any of the above.
My point is QUIT USING THE LAME EXCUSE THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT HOLINESS, NTCC! They don't want you and they don't want a rich pastor! Their main church in Graham dwarfs NTCC's Graham HQ's church and their scrawny Conference meetings! They say it's because we are living in the last days and people will become lovers of themselves and so on. Read the Bible. The last days began on the day of Pentecost. Read Hebrews chapter 1. He has now in THESE last days spoken unto us by his Son. There were people being added to the church daily back then, and I believe that if a pastor has enough backbone to preach the truth and live the truth according to godly sincerity and Christian love, it will grow very well.
And just to point something out about that church in the Philippines. There were A LOT of women conforming to their holiness standard of long hair and very long dresses even with long sleeves!
ReplyDeleteI even ran into a family at the airport, and the women in his family had on long dresses even outside of church. And he was wearing long pants. How come they are preaching holiness and they are reaching lots and lots of people? They had a lot of ministers there too. Why is it that NTCC's missionary works hardly result in any men getting saved and pastoring churches? They have to rely on women to run outstations which is against their policy, because for some reason no men seem to like to work with their American missionaries. In fact, I don't think they have ever or will ever turn over that work to Philippine nationals. I would venture to say it has probably always been run by white American NTCC ministers, and never has been ran by a local philipino. And it is perhaps the oldest work in NTCC. I have heard that it all started in P.I. with Davis meeting Pop Gaylord over there. All this time and the work is still not a vibrant indigenous ministry that is reaching out to it's own people with little influence from it's missionaries. It probably will always be run as a dependent work.
The NTCC work I was referring to was probably the oldest one there- Mindanao. I don't know much about Devonshire's church except that he used to have a pretty big congregation. Don't know who took over it when he came back to the mainland, but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are going down now. NTCC would benefit from learning to just leave a pastor in one place. People don't want to learn to trust a pastor and then lose him and then have to get used to some new ugly dude they never met before. Get real!
ReplyDeleteNTCC pastors think they have an impressive resume to take with them everywhere they go. They may even brag to their young congregations of how many churches they have pastored to impress them into thinking they are church gurus. It's funny when you hear one of their members then ask, so how long do you plan to stay here, Sir? Open mouth, insert foot. Now your faithful tithe-payer is probably thinking about going somewhere else.
ReplyDeleteDo they honestly think people want to raise a family in a church that rotates pastors over and over again? I doubt it. Not only that, I wouldn't want a pastor who is not from the place I live. I would wonder, who is this guy? Nobody really knows him or what he is like. He just came from some place called Graham, Wa? Where is that? See, if NTCC would just follow the model of the early church. They started churches and when they were established they selected elders among the congregation. This just makes sense. The people in the congregation know who those people are, and the elders are from there and understand those people. There is a culture gap, and this does matter when dealing with people in different states. For example, people from Hawaii can tell a person who is not from here. They don't talk the same. They don't act the same. They feel comfortable with someone who is from here. But Davis doesn't want the congregation to be comfortable with their pastor I guess. I guess they want him to seem mysterious. Like he just fell out of Heaven to grace that city with their presence.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said – NTCC did away with fellowship meetings to do away with gossip and alliances between churches.
ReplyDeleteAnd you believe that??? NTCC has been using that lie for the last 30 years. Can you say control mechanism!! This is not normal behavior for a normal church. Yea Yea Yea it’s the lie of the devil – NOT!
What's wrong with alliances between churches? What will they do next? Keep families from taking trips together to prevent alliances between husbands and wives? Oh, wait... I think they did that already.
ReplyDeleteThe NTCC leadership doesn't want a bunch of churches to all leave at the same time like with the split. They don't want church members talking amongst each other. They know the pastor can't control it. They do trust that the overseers will control it which is why the overseers are still conducting fellowship meetings when they happen to be around. It's called damage control. It's also called control of information. The NTCC is such a cult.
ReplyDeleteJeff
Jeff said:
ReplyDelete"They don't want church members talking amongst each other. They know the pastor can't control it."
Don and Ange said:
I remember before attending fellowship meetings it was often shared by the shepherd of the flock that we were not to ask questions about people who were not present. We were were only to speak of things that were of "good report". Mck has come out and said that any questions on his blog that were not in this category would be answered by him on the day of judgement.
If it sounds like a cult, smells like a cult, looks like a cult and feels like a cult, it probably is a cult. No not probably, it is a cult.
I remember one fellowship meeting, we were convoying down to Savannah or somewhere like that and the pastor said: "We are leaving at 10 am sharp. If you roll in here at 10:01 you will have missed the train". People would not dare be late. So we convoyed and people were so loyal that when the leader of the convoy (the pastor) got pulled over, they all didn't know what to do and pulled over behind him. They so blindly followed this man that all who pulled over got tickets. I was definitely a follower, but even I had enough sense to go up to the next rest area and wait for them all to speed by.
Don and Ange
"So we convoyed and people were so loyal that when the leader of the convoy (the pastor) got pulled over, they all didn't know what to do and pulled over behind him. They so blindly followed this man that all who pulled over got tickets."
ReplyDeleteThat is funny, sad, and pitiful. I'm belly laughing just picturing this in my mind. Wouldn't be surprised if they used this as a story of obedience in the aftermath.
There you have it. The blind leading the blind. In that particular case, both got pulled over next to the ditch. I'm ashamed that I was even part of the NTCC. I can only imagine how the folks feel who are still in it.
ReplyDeleteJeff
Jeff said, "It's called damage control. It's also called control of information. The NTCC is such a cult."
ReplyDeleteRight on, Jeff. And as time goes on, more and more is said and done for damage control, including the messages that are preached and things that are taught. I would listen to Kekel go off about people who are jealous over his possessions, or whatever was floating his boat that service, and I would think to myself, I need to go check Jeff's blog. They must be talking about such and such, because he's sure acting like somebody peed in his cheerios again.
Many people who sit in ntcc's services have minds that are so conditioned that they are not really processing what they are hearing anymore, but just taking it in robotically and amen-ing and nodding their heads in agreement. They could pass around the Kool-Aid and I believe many would take a drink without flinching. That's a scary thought.
LD
LD
Don and Ange said, "So we convoyed and people were so loyal that when the leader of the convoy (the pastor) got pulled over, they all didn't know what to do and pulled over behind him. They so blindly followed this man that all who pulled over got tickets. I was definitely a follower, but even I had enough sense to go up to the next rest area and wait for them all to speed by."
ReplyDeleteThat story would be some material to put in The Trumpet, at least it would be original.
I heard of a scenario where several ministers were at a fellowship meeting and planning their exit or some similar thing. Several of them did leave. It's been a few years, but if we could backtrack the timeline, I wouldn't be surprised if this event caused all fellowship meetings to be done away with unless an overseer is there to run it.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be surprised if this event caused all fellowship meetings to be done away with unless an overseer is there to run it.
Jeff said...
I wouldn't be surprised either.
Jeff
"They must be talking about such and such, because he's sure acting like somebody peed in his cheerios again."
ReplyDeletelately colin powell and td jakes have added their 2 cents.
LD said, "he's sure acting like somebody peed in his cheerios again."
ReplyDeleteMCK strikes me as an unhappy man, the type who is not comfortable in his own skin and has a chip on his shoulder or something to prove, but I'm just looking at one side. He cracks jokes and can smile when he wants to, but his overall demeanor seems to be a type of person who I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time around, if know what I mean.
Anonymous said, lately colin powell and td jakes have added their 2 cents.
ReplyDeleteWhat a blessing, Sir!
That big church in Manila that is holiness is UPC. Oneness.
ReplyDeleteSo it is a "Oneness" church, that preaches a "false doctrine" about God, and preaches outward holiness with standards of long sleeves etc etc.
ReplyDeleteHow is it that a church like that can attract and RETAIN thousands of faithful members and NTCC who preaches a "true doctrine" of God and has much more relaxed "holiness" standards cannot seem to grow or maintain faithful members?
Anonymous wrongly assumes...
ReplyDelete"That big church in Manila that is holiness is UPC. Oneness."
Rev. Olson who can't exactly tell you what time it is would be sorely displeased at your jumping to conclusions about what the facts are.
You have wrongly assumed that this is UPC. In fact, it is Jesus Miracle Crusade. However, by the luck of the draw you are correct that they are oneness. However, if you try to find two churches that preach exactly the same doctrines in EVERY point, I would like to shake your hand. Yes, they are holiness. The point NTCC makes to justify their puny pee-wee size congregations (Graham included when you figure the ratio of ministers to local church members) is NOT that they are trinitarian, but that they are HOLINESS. My point is that this group is Christian and they are holiness, and they have a very large congregation in Manila. But since you brought it up, you are right, UPC is holiness as well, and though they are not trinitarian, they also have way way way more people than NTCC.
So is it that the world doesn't want holiness or they don't want trinitarian? I can also show you a whole lot of trinitarian churches that outnumber NTCC's numbers by far.
UPC and Jesus Miracle Crusade may be oneness, and this doctrine may be very well contested by trinitarians, but it should be noted that oneness dates back to the ante-nicene church fathers. Sabellianism as it was called taught that Jesus was the Father manifested in the flesh. I believe it was Tertullian who called it something like Patra-passionism (something like that) because it assumed that the Father suffered on the cross. I am trinitarian too, but I think the Oneness have a legitimate right to be called Christians because although they seem to have to ignore some obvious teachings from scripture, they back their beliefs up by scripture that it is hard for trinitarians to explain.
Some examples:
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
Also, they believe that because the great commission from Jesus was to baptize everyone in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and that in every instance where they tell the name of the one that they baptized in, the name is Jesus, that Jesus is the name of all three (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost).
In light of the fact that Jesus often tells that the Father is in Him, and He is in the Father, and things of that nature, I can see how some could read the scriptures and believe this phenomenon, and still be a true Christian.
Therefore, I don't agree with Oneness folks, but I don't call them heretics. They believe in Jesus and call upon Him for salvation, and believe Jesus is God. I particularly don't know how to explain God's nature fully no matter how much I study the scriptures. Even trinitarians say that they can not explain fully how God can be 3, but yet be one, and that it is a great mystery. (Great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifested in the flesh- ring a bell?) So I suggest that we don't put one denomination down because they see all three as one and Jesus as the name of all three. After all, it is by the name of Jesus that we are saved.
Now... Anonymous in a roundabout way points out that Jesus Miracle Crusade and UPC are Oneness, so they should not be considered as legitimate Christian churches though some UPC churches preach strict standards of holiness, and Jesus Miracle Crusade seems to practice a stricter standard of holiness than NTCC.
ReplyDeleteDoes NTCC preach all true doctrines?
Let's see:
Some examples of their secret doctrines that they do not display in their doctrinal statements:
1- God's church is a business, because Jesus said "I must be about my Father's business"
The word "business" is not in the Greek NT. A literal translation could be rendered, "I must be about my Father." "Business" was added to give the feel of the meaning that he must be BUSY about the Father's work. No brainer.
2- We shouldn't take communion because we will damn people to hell who are not right with God.
In the early church they divided the people who could take communion from the ones who could not. They dealt with the issue without forsaking the entire Lord-appointed ritual.
3- Fasting is not for us today because Jesus has sent us the Holy Spirit.
Paul had the Holy Spirit and fasted before selecting elders. Before the elders released Paul and Barnabas they fasted and laid hands on them. Paul says he fasted often, and the long list of things he said he did in addition to fasting did not only include sufferings, but also things he did as a Christian whether suffering or not, so we can't assume it means forced fasting as in starvation.
4- The Church doesn't use God's money to help the poor.
2 Cor 8,9; Gal 2:10 "Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do." Acts 11:30; Acts 24:17; Rom 15:25; 1Cor 16:1; 2Cor 8:1; 2Cor 9:1;; James 2:15; 1John 3:17; Deut 15:7; Luke 3:11
Not to mention Acts 2, in which it says that noone went without, because those who were rich sold what they had and gave to the apostles to be distributed to the poor. NTCC says this practice was not repeated. The Christian Church is still alive and many sects of Christianity have practiced this form of communal living at least as early as the middle ages with the Waldenses another group whose name escapes me.
I have excluded from this list many many questionable practices that many can attest that they fail the litmus test when the fruits of these practices are tested or tried. Such things as rich leaders who oppress the poor are not necessarily hard doctrinal issues that can be quickly proven as "erroneous doctrine" but stink just the same if not worse.
I will say, though those Jesus Miracle Crusade Christians are Oneness I am more impressed with their ministers' lifestyle of eating one meal a day and praying on their knees for their congregation. Discredit them all you want, but NTCC could learn something about the humble lifestyle of their ministers and the numbers that they have (perhaps as a result of it).
Hello Rev Kekel, what are you doing here? Looking for something to preach on tonight??? lol
ReplyDeleteQuit blaming your SORRINESS on HOLINESS!
ReplyDeleteHmmm... Anonymous, what made you say that? Do you think Rev. Kekel was the one that posted about UPC?
ReplyDeleteNot sure Kris, but I'm sure Kekel comes on here and take a peek every now and then lol
ReplyDeleteya, it's like him preaching to a congregation and preaching that there are some here that are doing this and that and he's not sure if there are, but he figures in a large congregation there are probably some who are.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous posted...
ReplyDelete"2008... old information. Incorrect information."
What was the point in you posting this if you weren't going to tell what was wrong and what is right, or even tell who you are so we know if you know what you are talking about?
Here's a link to Jesus Miracle Crusade: http://www.jmcim.org/site/pages/index.php
ReplyDeleteWARNING TO NTCC LEADERS: Do not let this link be found by your followers. It will seriously discredit your justification for your lack of growth.
It also seems like MC Kekel has wasted the degree he got in IT. Their website blows away NTCC's.
ReplyDeleteNope, I am not Rev. Kekel.
ReplyDeleteIf you are not baptized according to Acts 2:38, they teach you are not saved. I have family in them, I know.
Ok and then? NTCC lets you go years as a Christian without even being water baptized! Who is worse? What have you proven? You still can't take away from what I said. I said that NTCC says that they are small because the world doesn't want holiness. I showed you a church that is large and preaches holiness. NTCC doesn't say that the world doesn't want trinitarian churches and churches that rarely baptize. They say the world doesn't want holiness.
ReplyDeleteAre there any NTCC ministers who understand logic and reasoning? This is your reasoning:
ReplyDeleteWe can't seem to grow very large. We are holiness.
Therefore the world doesn't want holiness.
I showed you a church that is growing.
They are holiness.
Therefore your theory seems to be flawed.
I establish a new premise: The world doesn't want something else about you that is not holiness.
In that church, they say their pastor has become crippled from fasting so long. He has bruises on his knees from praying so long. He lives in a simple house.
Your pastor is rich, enjoys a luxurious lifestyle, and I remember him sitting in a chair staring at everybody else while THEY were praying in prayer meetings.
Do you think this might be the real reason why your numbers are so low?
Or do you insist that the devil brings people to holiness churches that teach oneness and that you have to be baptized in Jesus' name only, because these are damnable heresies?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"If you are not baptized according to Acts 2:38, they teach you are not saved."
We were taught in NTCC Bible seminary that if you are not happy every day, you are not saved. Do you believe that?
What about, if you don't pay tithe you are not saved?
How about, if you go to college the consequences may be spiritually devastating?
Or, If you don't live in the home you won't be able to stay saved?
Or, if you don't speak in tongues you won't have the Holy Ghost and you won't be able to stay saved?
Or, if you leave NTCC, you left God?
Are any of these in the Bible?
So, what have we established? All three HOLINESS denominations mentioned teach erroneous doctrines but have some right to claiming that they are Christian. One of them has many people leaving, and people don't just naturally join their ranks. They usually have to be pressured to join them. The other two seem to be growing very large as the years go by.
You put the Oneness church down because they degrade the Father saying He is the Son? I say look at what Pastor Davis does. He degrades the Father to the likes of a businessman.
Kris said...
ReplyDeleteWhat about, if you don't pay tithe you are not saved?
How about, if you go to college the consequences may be spiritually devastating?
Or, If you don't live in the home you won't be able to stay saved?
Or, if you don't speak in tongues you won't have the Holy Ghost and you won't be able to stay saved?
Or, if you leave NTCC, you left God?
Jeff said...
There you have it. I heard all those. Well I guess all that didn't work either.
People who spoke in tongues left the NTCC and according to NTCC standards, didn't stay saved.
People didn't go to a secular college and they left the NTCC and according to NTCC standards, they didn't stay saved.
People lived in the home and they left the NTCC and according to NTCC standards, they didn't stay saved.
People payed tithe and left the NTCC and according to NTCC standards, they didn't stay saved.
People did all of that all put together and they left the NTCC. So here you have it. The NTCC leadership don't know squat about "STAYING SAVED" or what it takes to "STAY SAVED". You know why? Because the NTCC leadership has thrown in so much other stuff that they've pushed Jesus out which is the only one who can keep you saved.
So what do you have? The people who leave the NTCC and stop focusing on all that stuff and find Jesus are the ones who are saved. The ones who rely on all that crap arn't even close to being saved.
Jeff
So what do you have? The people who leave the NTCC and stop focusing on all that stuff and find Jesus are the ones who are saved. The ones who rely on all that crap arn't even close to being saved.
ReplyDeleteBy Jeff
This is so true. After we left ntcc and then ntcc left my brain. Only then did I learn to rely on God and only God in my daily walk. I know take my bible learning alot slower. and I make sure it lines up with the Bible!
April
That Oneness congregation is probably a 100X more sincere then any NTCC pastor or "faithful" church member that you could run into. They actually have some before-after pictures in their Testimonies section that are pretty amazing. I know that through the years people like Oral Roberts, AA Allen, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, etc. have made some pretty big claims about what God did but not too many of them offer physical evidence.
ReplyDeleteThey are some very nice people. They worship for hours and hours on Sundays. There are a lot of people going there. The Philippines is a poor country as you may know. Their services in Cebu are held on a large covered slab of concrete with pits in it. They pray on their knees during that service. We followed along with them and someone offered us empty rice bags to protect our knees. I am not saying this church is perfect, but they definitely seem to have something. They are holiness and they have BIG numbers, lots of long dresses and long hair and no make-up and jewelry. You can't tell me that holiness detracts numbers. Numbers dwindle PEOPLE SMELL A RAT!
ReplyDeletesorry it was supposed to be, "NUMBERS DWINDLE WHEN PEOPLE SMELL A RAT!
ReplyDeleteKris said..."The difference between their pastor and NTCC's? He apparently lives in a simple small house. He has spent so much time on his knees praying they said he had bruises on his knees. (I saw a picture). He is crippled from fasting too long. His ministers follow his example of fasting and praying for the congregation."
ReplyDeleteSince when have you ever heard of an NTCC pastor fasting? I'm sure we can all think of some that wouldn't hurt and they could go at least 40 days and still be a "full gospel preacher". Most are more guilty of the sin of gluttony, their god being their bellies, and being more interested in when their next meal ticket will walk through that back door...
Did anyone ever read that book "Loyalty and Disloyalty" that they talked about in conference awhile back? After reading it you get this paranoid attitude towards everyone in your church that appears to be disloyal and you need to take these immediate steps to cut them off or out before any damage is done to your ministry. No mention of love, going to a brother overtaken in a fault, restoration, forgiveness, etc.
ReplyDelete"Since when have you ever heard of an NTCC pastor fasting?"
ReplyDeleteI fasted as an NTCC minister. All I ever got were snide remarks about trying to be "super spiritual" (from those who were apparently trying to be "super carnal").
Vic said,
ReplyDelete"I fasted as an NTCC minister. All I ever got were snide remarks about trying to be "super spiritual" (from those who were apparently trying to be "super carnal")."
said reasoning should result in tithe paying as being "super spiritual"
Vic said..."I fasted as an NTCC minister. All I ever got were snide remarks about trying to be "super spiritual" (from those who were apparently trying to be "super carnal")."
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing whenever you would do something that seemed more spiritual than the others around you in NTCC, that you would have some snide remark said about you. "No, I just want to relax and read my Bible" but then you get made fun of if you don't want to goof around or listen to some boring Q & A session or stomp around the sanctuary praying until the middle of the night or talk about the latest piece of tail that rolled up into campus. "He's being sooo super-spiritual" or "He's so heavenly minded that he's no earthly good." NTCCers need to quit singing about the "sweet by-and-by" and start dealing with the "nasty now-and-now". Most of the time it's their false humility and false spirituality that people can see from the outside and that's why they won't come back to your church...
It is baffling to hear ministers being critical of fasting, which seemed like a good idea to Moses, Daniel, Jesus, and Paul et al. But RW gets his corpulent body up behind a pulpit only to bash a practice he would do well to embrace. I guess it all fits in with his theory about the thief on the cross going to hell, or the phrase "just Lot" meaning "only Lot."
ReplyDeleteRWD, D.D., Ph.D. Not a gentleman, and obviously not a scholar, either.
"Yeah, I'm sure that Jeff's departure revived the whole Southeast, and now they're busting at the seams."
ReplyDeleteVic, I went to the conference they had in Graham, and I would say it was about half full on a night that they usually have service anyway... I've been a few times over the years, and it's gotten really small there. It definitely is dying out, even though they've absorbed so many of the local churches.
Anonymous said ...
ReplyDelete"It definitely is dying out, even though they've absorbed so many of the local churches."
And this is their flagship model of what all their churches should be like. Doesn't leave much hope for a pastor and his wife in a town where they don't know anyone and have one or two single helpers. When I was there last time, the majority of the people I saw in Graham's services were vastly ministers and students.
"It definitely is dying out, even though they've absorbed so many of the local churches."
ReplyDeleteWell, that's welcome news. Glad to know that unbridled exploitation has been rendered impractical through the dissemination of information and true examples and accounts of NTCC malfeasance. As people continue to leave, their contributions add to the large and rapidly growing body of evidence against these pernicious "leaders."
RWD, D.D., Ph.D. Not a gentleman, and obviously not a scholar, either.
ReplyDeleteWithout a doubt the Understatement of the Century.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"NTCCers need to quit singing about the "sweet by-and-by" and start dealing with the "nasty now-and-now"."
Don and Ange said:
It doesn't matter how many songs you sing, how many "God Bless you, sir's" you say, how many times the offering plate passes by, how many people you invite to church, how many times you read your bible or pray, what kind of clothes you wear, how you wear your hair or what you look like.
What is the ntcc accomplishing as a church? How many people are they helping? What kind of lasting memories are people going to have when they reflect back on them? Is there any benefit in attending ntcs or is that where they get taught to become abusive, screaming jerks? Do they care about you or do they care about what you can do for them? If they care about you they will no doubt still care about you when you leave. We know that doesn't happen.
Vic said..."his (RWD) theory about the thief on the cross going to hell, or the phrase "just Lot" meaning "only Lot.""
ReplyDeleteIt is amazing how many ministers and people in those pews just take whatever comes from their pulpits as the truth and there is no exegesis ever done. Other versions share that just meaning righteous or upgright (2 Peter 2:7-9). Most commentators will say that he kept himself even in the middle of Sodom. RWD couldn't accept the thief being spared because it condemns his unforgiving and calloused spirit. One of the things that RWD and alot of them hate is expository preaching.
Long dresses,no makeup,no jewelry is NOT Holiness. It is not biblical to say that because you think a woman looking PLAIN is holiness!
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteReading this makes me feel dizzy like I've been chasing a frisbee at a frat house party! Why don't they just leave the people in one town until they sink or swim? Moving them is what the Catholic Church did to hide the pervert priests. Is that happening here? It's so confusing. I thought God is not the Author of confusion? They must not be following God.
Good doggy. You are right on that one. A dog who can be trained as well as you can should have been able to do good in the NTCC. Ha, ha. Roof, roof!
ReplyDeleteJeff
Hello,
ReplyDeleteA man named Rev. Bentley and Rev. Hawkins visit my home to encourage me to come to the NTCC in Marietta, GA. For some reason, I felt that I should research these two people to make sure that they are legit. Can anyone give me any insight on these to Reverends?
Thank you.
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteWe don't know these two men. But there is plenty of info on this blog to warn a person that the ntcc is a destructive group. The individuals and small churches may be nice enough; but the organization as a whole is flawed through and through.
Countless ministers have left the ntcc due to the systemic abuse they experienced and witnessed in the ntcc.
Each of us went to the ntcc looking for God. The more we learned about God through reading our bibles and praying, the more we realized how far from God the top leaders of ntcc really are. Their rules contradict God's word. Rather than being servants, they expect everyone to serve them. The list of wrongs is long and alarming.
We're glad you are willing to look before you leap.
DnA
Run just as fast as you can. Have nothing to do with the NTCC. It's a cult through and through. The two ministers you mentioned are misguided and brainwashed.
ReplyDeleteJudgemen Day is coming. God said Touch not my annoited and do my prophers no harm. All of you need to take a lesson from King David (who is a man after Gods heart) Though king Saul was wrong and David had opportunities to kill him, He did not do it. He said I will not touch Gods annointed. We are of God and all of you are trifling with Gods messengers. Gamaliel said leave these men alone. If its not of God, it will come to nought. But if it is of God, you are fighting against God. Judgment Day is coming.
Delete