Mark G. posted this message on the previous thread and I responded. I thought it would make for a good "new" thread and of course we haven't had one for a while. Mark G. said...
Yep....Something else that I have been thinking about is the fact that I've heard from other people (Not from him personally,or from behind the pulpit) that he asked God to make him either a Millionaire or a Multi-Millionaire. If it is true, and he did indeed ask God to do that for him then I think that in itself is a very revealing statement about himself personally.
Jeff said...
I'm glad you said that because I personally witnessed and with my "own" ears heard RWD say that he prayed to God that he, "RWD" would become a millionaire. That always left a distinct impression on my mind because it made a few things obvious.
First, RWDs statement made it obvious that number one and most importantly, RWD wasn't already a millionaire when he made that prayer to God. Secondly and quite important as well, he is a seriously materialistic dude. I don't blame him for being materialistic but it proves that he is not as super spiritual as some have suggested because we know that the love of money is the root of "all" evil. RWD definitely loves money or he wouldn't have prayed for it and then openly stated that he prayed for money in front of hundreds of people in that sanctuary.
The reason that it's significant that he wasn't already a millionaire is because NTCC loyalists like to claim that RDUB didn't get his riches through the ministry and from the church people. Well that notion is a complete lie. Yes he made good investments, and yes he made good real-estate purchases but the money that it took to make those investments and purchases came from a bunch of struggling church folks in the NTCC without doubt. RWD gained his riches through greed and at the expense of his minister's and church member's sacrifice. We know this because the money had to come from somewhere and we know he wasn't "already" a millionaire when he made that prayer. Why would someone pray to become a millionaire if they already were a millionaire? They wouldn't.
When RWD made that statement, it showed me a lot about his character and his organization. According to the Bible, Solomon didn't even make such a prayer and the Bible emphasized that fact quite clearly. RWD is a money hungry blow hard who makes no apologies for that fact, and he doesn't care if his ministers have struggled so that he could achieve that goal, and they most certainly have. Now Kekel is the same way and you NTCC guys are being duped to live in poverty while those two guys just get more rich off of your efforts.
Get your very own church building and stop sending money up to Graham and stop placing money into an escrow account that you have no control over.
Jeff Collins
71 comments:
He made millions off of the backs of soldiers! No different than the payday loans or lemon lots!
Anon!
As early as the 1970's he would boast from the pulpit how that he was now independently wealthy. I made a mental note, not hearing something from any other preacher, in or outside of the organization.
He had several friends in the business community, sometimes they even came to hear him preach. Who bought and owned the many rental properties for the College?
We were forced to rent from the College. You see, when recruited we didn't know about the hard and fast rules to come in St. Louis. Sister Davis was the little matchmaker. RW never "asked anyone to come to BS" but Sister Davis sure did.
But RDubb always had a "rental home" or many properties coming and going we never knew about. There was the place on 224 Hazel- now a parking lot... (see Google Earth) There were properties around Carondelet Church. He was wise to always use people and connections to his advantage. He taught us how to succeed as a ruthless businessman. And recall those lessons he learned in that grocery store as an assistant manager. And in those Baptist storefront buildings?
Oh yeah, one more thing- he scolded from the pulpit those at Carondelet PCOG/NTCG who didn't like the bus ministry and the black kids who dirtied up the walls! He blasted those hypocrites in the most fervent language. You need a bus ministry. Oh yes and we MUST have a day school of our own! for our children! in this ungodly world! He wept for it, later closing it down- ah, let them go to the Baptist School across the street.
When I assumed SoSide NTCC I got about 2-3 church members from Saminto's, thanks. I still had to support almost all functions of NTCC and was scolded, (lambasting) for not winning any new souls. Our schedules were always packed with NTCC events! How could we do anything? YIKES! Its great to be free.
They loved to squeeze you til you broke! ("Pressed beyond measure")
as Paul said.
I strongly believe that a REAL Christian who wants to be a millionaire will only desire that money in order to HELP OTHERS.
I know of other people, including myself, who would love to have money to help alleviate people's suffering, help those in need, do some good in this world. Davis, Kekel and other "worldly" preachers want to be rich, but only to live a luxurious lifestyle, drive fancy cars and spend it ALL on themselves. Then they see brothers and sisters every day who are destitute and struggling and won't lift one finger to help them in any way. They're identical to the rich Pharisees who said, "Be ye warmed and filled", but gave them NOTHING to help them!! They're greedy, selfish and definitely not an example of what Jesus taught Christians to be. They are wolves in sheeps clothing (bought at Macys of course!)
AXP
On the yahoo homepage there was an article about Joel Osteen. There's a real winner who also never attended college, seminary, or bible school himself. He took over his dad's work and collects 43 million a year in tithes and 36 million a year in donations out of a converted nba areana. (how would you like to be responsible for that light bill?)
Rick Warren (a purpose driven life) has a little spat with him and has even asked "Is the goal for every Christian to be a millionaire? Are there not lots of poor people who are Christians?" Once you start traveling down that road of thought, you might be surprised where it takes you.
Joel Osteen. There's a real winner who also never attended college, seminary, or bible school.
It's just my opinion, But Joel Osteen teaches what I consider to be a "Cotton Candy Theology".
after we left WA. And went out into a work. We began to have a little bit of a LIFE. Got involved in a few community service projects. Filling food capsules to go to third world countries. Filling Birthday bags to give to food banks(for kids that would get nothing for there special day) Collecting books to send to troops.
Now I have collected food for a few neighbors,give toys to those that do not have that much,help folks with our talents(computer,being frugal,ect).
We still I would say on the borderline of poverty. But compared to when we were in Ntcc. We are RICH! Rich in our own time,Rich making memories as a family,Rich in making our own choices,Rich in Freedom! And not paying all our money out of GUILT to ntcc. Fake preaching about Sarcrfice. To GUILT you into giving as much as you can. While your family goes with very little. But then shame you from, getting foodstamps. Which could help a families pantry!CRAZY!
I will continue to help others in anyway I can. I hope someday to do more. PAY IT FORWARD!
CM
RW shut the day school down the year Tanya graduated, if I remember correctly. Then he criticized those parents who sacrificed to send their own kids to other Christian schools, or did home schooling. It was transparently hypocritical.
Without doubt he obtained his wealth by exploiting others. He had legions of yard slaves, and that dorm scheme was a cash cow. I actually moved out into an apartment with a couple of other brothers, and we were totally unprepared for and shocked by the consternation it provoked in RW. One would have thought that we were shacking up with harlots the way it was treated. We were so naive--we did it to save money and move closer to the school; we thought we'd be commended as 'leaders.' But now I understand that it represented a serious threat to his moneymaking enterprise should others follow suit (he taught us in classs that the secret to wealth accumulation was leveraging OPM--Other Peoples' Money). After we moved out, a rule was immediately instituted that prevented anyone else from doing likewise. Then one of the brothers was sent to Washington, so the other guy and I couldn't afford to split the rent between only two of us; their plot to force us back in the dorm succeeded.
It was all about money then, and it's all about money now. Mercenary preachers are inherently untrustworthy.
Does anybody know what the acronym GSYH would stand for? just curious, i have been having correspondence with a particular ntcc minister and apparently i 'ticked him off' and GSYH was the response i recieved
my first thought was "go %$&* in your hat" but i know a truly saved pastor would never speak in such a way...right???
GSYH: God Send You to Hell.
Yeah, you no doubt upset the sorry preacher if he would like to see you in hell. Typical judgmental NTCC mentality. What in the world did you do that he would like to see you in hell? Did you tell him that he was a jerk?
Truly saved minister? Certainly not according to Bible standards but then I'm learning that there are not a whole lot of NTCC ministers who are.
Jeff
Vic said...
and that dorm scheme was a cash cow.
Jeff said...
All RWDs so called "ministry" schemes are cash cows. The revolving ministers / zero out escrow account scheme is a cash cow.
The "buy a church building with the money that was already drawn from all the escrow accounts" and then essentially charge the pastor rent on the same building is a serious cash cow.
Buying properties and houses and then bringing folks to Graham to live out in the middle of nowhere so they have few other alternatives but to rent your houses is a cash cow.
All the pledges are cash cows. An NTCC minister told me that a pledge that he took up from his church members never made it to it's original designated destination and he found out after the fact from a third party.
Continuing to place money in escrow where there is already a paid for building is a cash cow. Especially when the local pastor has no control over the escrow money. The NTCC leadership has all kinds of schemes. The NTCC is no more than a big scheme and unfortunately I learned that only after I was duped by the same schemes.
RWD has figured out just about every conceivable way to get as much of the NTCC church member's and minister's money as possible.
RWD and Kekel have also learned how to use the church members and ministers so the NTCC doesn't have to spend "much" money. Get their houses cleaned for little or free. Get their cars washed. Get their yards done. Get all kinds of free construction work done at the campground and in Graham and all around the US where there are church buildings and a minister with with good remodeling skills which many of them have and the NTCC has set it up that way.
RWDs schemes are nothing short of amazing but diabolical and destructive at the same time. His schemes have resulted in the virtual destruction or waste of many lives.
Jeff
GSYH means (go soak your head)
MONEY AND POWER and JEWS
Vic Johanson said...
Without doubt he obtained his wealth by exploiting others... (he taught us in class that the secret to wealth accumulation was leveraging OPM--Other Peoples' Money). ...
It was all about money then, and it's all about money now. Mercenary preachers are inherently untrustworthy.
December 22, 2009 5:31 AM
Vic, once again you have hit the nail on the head. Your post is worth the re-read.
In my opinion all of rdub's teachings boil down to two topics:
MONEY AND POWER
And both are to be RENDERED WITHOUT QUESTION OR COMPLAINT OR RESERVATION TO HIM AND HIS.
In practice what's his is his; and what's yours is his.
Occasionally he would be forced to give lip service to Christian ethics; but such occasions were few and far between and involved ulterior motives and objectives:
One time Sandy Gesang wanted a coffee table. eli, the fella she married, *wouldn't allow* her to buy one. *(That's right out of the abusers' code language handbook.)*
rdub blasted eli for this calling eli a "JEW!" I guess it made rdub feel all powerful to publicly ream eli (of Hebrew descent) this way, slander God's chosen by purposefully applying a malicious stereotype, and humiliate a good woman.
But this incident was handled roughly. In my opinion rdub wanted folks to know he'd better not get wind of any dissatisfaction; or you too would get reamed publicly.
Back to the power thing.
Disgusting and typical of rdub.
BitG
HOW TO USE PEOPLE:
Jeff--Your post of December 22, 2009 10:36 AM was so good. ntcc is all about the money and how to exploit and use people.
BitG
AXP,
That's why its especially frustrating that the money is tax free also. There should be a law that you at least have to lift a pinky finger and attempt to care about the welfare of others to get church tax free status.
I was in one of Davis' classes where a brother asked the question, "What do you believe about giving to charities?" Davis went on to say how he gave $5 one time to a veterans charity and for months afterward they sent him mailings and address labels. So in otherwords it was stupid to give to anyone.
And the whole time I was in all of those classes I noticed several of the other teachers attacking the use of the word "charity". They insisted its true meaning from the bible had been changed, it only meant love, and our world has changed that into giving physical things to others.
Well... duh... sometimes people desperately need material things. Half of the world's population lives on somewhere between $1 and $3 a day. But these folks are too busy going to the sleep comfort and jewelry stores to care.
And most bothersome of all is how Davis and so many who want to be like him use that verse "the poor will be with you alway".
So who cares,they teach, just tell them to come to church, tell them to tithe their child support and everything will be all better in heaven.
I was told many times that a Christian's job was just to tell people about church and I was frustrated then with how many aspects of life that leaves out and it angers me now just to think aboubt it.
Even a character like Snoop Dog spent $300,000 of his own money to create a football league for the innnercity kids of his hometown to help them out and help them stay out of trouble. The schools there are so poor they never had a football league and now Crenshaw has one of the best teams.
And he has to pay taxes on his money.
BitG said...
Jeff--Your post of December 22, 2009 10:36 AM was so good.
Jeff said...
BitG, you've written some gems yourself and your input is quite valuable. I just wish more folks in the NTCC understood the NTCC like you do. If they had the understanding that you have, RWD and Kekels cash cash cow would rapidly run dry. Of course they have so much money already, it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but at least everyone else would stop making deposits in Kekels bank account.
Take care BitG,
Jeff
P.S. I post everyone's messages everyday at approximately 10:00AM and 10:00PM. Well almost everyone's messages. There are still a few people who everyday try to post spam and garbage messages with all kinds of vile junk included. It hasn't stopped which is why I have no other alternative but to continue to moderate this blog. The funny thing about it is that since I've been moderating, there seems to have been an increase in messages posted. So the intruders attempt wreak havoc on this blog seems to have had the opposite effect.
Ya all take care and once again sincerely,
Jeff Collins
My last comment didn't quite compute- I meant--- "I had never heard any preacher boast about their financial status from a pulpit". You just don't hear preachers boasting of their "independence of wealth". Why draw attention to it. How un-humble.
Anyway, so RW wanted us to be like him? Then we would have to leave his Org and be independent, answering to no one but self. Just like him. Un-rebukable just like him. But now he judges us for leaving him- as he left his organizations! He calls us fault-finders! I call us true to our BS lessons. And even this, "We ought to obey God rather than man".
I really pity them- those captives left in their "small world" of chaos. What they preached against long ago- now they do. "World-liness" is definable by anything they want to... their whole world is based on FEAR. Fear of exiting. Fear of hellfire... damnation from the first up before the throne. My God, what blasphemy! They have the keys to heaven? Nobody is saved but them OMG!
NICOLE U R RIGHT ON THE MONEY... Pun intended! ;)
Nicole said,
I was in one of Davis' classes where a brother asked the question, "What do you believe about giving to charities?" Davis went on to say how he gave $5 one time to a veterans charity and for months afterward they sent him mailings and address labels. So in otherwords it was stupid to give to anyone.
JESUS COMMANDS:
GIVE TO HIM THAT ASKETH THEE, AND FROM HIM THAT WOULD BORROW OF THEE TURN NOT THOU AWAY.-Matt. 5v42
God gives simple answers to those who will obey. And He blesses the obedient:
HE THAT HATH PITY UPON THE POOR LENDETH UNTO THE LORD; AND THAT WHICH HE HATH GIVEN WILL HE PAY HIM AGAIN.-Prov. 19v17
See how simple and beautiful. You don't need to fear giving to the poor. Jesus commands us to give. But He also promises that He Himself will pay you back what you give. Beautiful. It brings glory to God when His children obey Him.
ntcc staff know these scriptures; they just don't obey.
There is a promise for them too:
WHOSO STOPPETH HIS EARS AT THE CRY OF THE POOR, HE ALSO SHALL CRY HIMSELF, BUT SHALL NOT BE HEARD.
See, the world teaches there are only so many piece$ in a pie. ntcc wants all your piece$.
But God teaches us if we give our piece$ to the poor He will pay us back again. (I like pie. Unlimited pie by God.)
And no, you don't give just to get. But you quote the scripture as Jesus did to SILENCE THE ENEMY. (see Matthew chapter four especially vs 4,7, & 10 for more reading on that all important technique of defeating the foe.)
So do give to the poor as God commands. And do not give to the rich as God also says:
HE THAT OPPRESSETH THE POOR TO INCREASE HIS 'RICHES, AND' HE THAT GIVETH TO THE RICH, SHALL SURELY COME TO WANT.
God wants you to give to the poor. But don't line the pockets of those who are rich (especially those who got rich by oppressing the poor); or you will come to want and so will the oppressor.
God's instructions for us are simple. But ntcc likes to wrest the scripture and twist things hoping to gain ($). But it won't prosper. God keeps account. Payday is coming, as joe olson is so fond of saying. And as jimmy johnson likes to say the wheels of God turn slow but sure.
BitG
LOVE IS ACTION, NOT 'GABLESSHA, NOW GET OUTTA HERE'...
Nicole said:
And the whole time I was in all of those classes I noticed several of the other teachers attacking the use of the word "charity". They insisted its true meaning from the bible had been changed, it only meant love, and our world has changed that into giving physical things to others.
Well... duh... sometimes people desperately need material things. Half of the world's population lives on somewhere between $1 and $3 a day. But these folks are too busy going to the sleep comfort and jewelry stores to care.
PresumptuMously, i mean, precisely my dear;-< i agree with Nicole.
IF A BROTHER OR SISTER BE NAKED, AND DESTITUTE OF DAILY FOOD,
AND ONE OF YOU SAY UNTO THEM, DEPART IN PEACE, BE 'YE' WARMED AND FILLED; NOTWITHSTANDING YE GIVE THEM NOT THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE NEEDFUL TO THE BODY; WHAT 'DOTH IT' PROFIT?-James 2v15&16
ntcc doesn't want you to take from the rich ntcc and give to the poor.
But God shows it takes more than a clammy hand shake and sloppy Gablessha (God bless you) to LOVE.
CHARITY - LOVE IS ACTION
BitG
"And most bothersome of all is how Davis and so many who want to be like him use that verse "the poor will be with you alway"."
What they fail to note is that the reason the poor continually abide is that exploiters like RW and is cronies refuse to change their avaricious ways. We'd all be poor if they could figure out a way to separate us from our money. I'd still be poor today (by American standards, anyway) if I had continued letting him and his org bleed me out.
The sooner one escapes, the less likely it will be that he will end up penurious in old age. Those of you still ensnared would do well to consider your futures. So far, those "rest homes for ministers and missionaries" authorized by NTCC's bylaws haven't materialized, and if they ever do, they will undoubtedly be dreary places that no one would occupy but for necessity.
JEFF, THANKS FOR YOUR KIND WORDS AND FOR PROVIDING A PLATFORM FOR US TO SHARE OUR EXPERIENCES.
Jeff said: BitG, ... I just wish more folks in the NTCC understood the NTCC like you do.
Well, Jeff, we went through the school of hard knocks at ntcc. And it cost us and our families plenty of time and heartache to acquire this understanding. But here is HOPE:
AND I WILL RESTORE TO YOU THE YEARS THAT THE LOCUST HATH EATEN, THE CANKERWORM, AND THE CATERPILLER, AND THE PALMERWORM, MY GREAT ARMY WHICH I SENT AMONG YOU.
AND YE SHALL EAT IN PLENTY, AND BE SATISFIED, AND PRAISE THE NAME OF THE LORD YOUR GOD, THAT HATH DEALT WONDROUSLY WITH YOU: AND MY PEOPLE SHALL NEVER BE ASHAMED.
AND YE SHALL KNOW THAT I 'AM' IN THE MIDST OF ISRAEL, AND 'THAT' I 'AM' THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND NONE ELSE; AND MY PEOPLE SHALL NEVER BE ASHAMED.-Joel 2v25-27
BitG
WHEN YOUR FEAR COMES UPON YOU rdub:
Jeff said, I just wish more folks in the NTCC understood the NTCC like you do. If they had the understanding that you have, RWD and Kekels cash cash cow would rapidly run dry. Of course they have so much money already, it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but at least everyone else would stop making deposits in Kekels bank account.
rdub's GREATEST FEAR:
For years rdub spouted off about his greatest fear being that "People would see all the wealth and all the ble$$ing$ and" think that's what it was to serve God (suppposing gain is godliness, as ntcc now claims) and forget the God that brought them there (as ntcc now does)...
But here is how i see all the worldly junk ntcc has amassed for its privileged few [1] at the cost of its impoverished masses [2]:
[1] AND THOU SHALT SEE AN ENEMY 'IN MY' HABITATION IN ALL 'THE WEALTH' WHICH 'GOD' SHALL GIVE ISRAEL:...I SAM 2v32(partial).
Why?
[2] ...BECAUSE THEY SOLD THE RIGHTEOUS FOR SILVER, AND THE POOR FOR A PAIR OF SHOES;-Amos 2v6(partial).
rdubs GREATEST FEAR WILL COME UPON HIM AND GOD'S RESPONSE WILL BE:
I ALSO WILL LAUGH AT YOUR CALAMITY; I WILL MOCK WHEN YOUR FEAR COMETH;
WHEN YOUR FEAR COMETH AS DESOLATION, AND YOUR DESTRUCTION COMETH AS A WHIRLWIND; WHEN DISTRESS AND ANGUISH COMETH UPON YOU.-Prov. 1v26&27
i used to cry when i prayed about ntcc and God would show me such an end for them. But over time God instructed me that though it was a good response to have a tender heart, i was not to pray for this people and not to walk in their ways.
i was a very good student of all things ntcc. But God has been merciful to me, leading me out by the hand as He did for Lot. MERCY. So i must do my part and walk in His ways, not ntcc's crooked ways.
And be sure, God sent them the prophets, rising early and sending them, to warn ntcc to turn.
He even gave rdub dreams. Bad dreams about how the judgment will come. But those were misinterpreted by rdub.
That's a whole nother post.
Until then, take care. And may God bless His servants.
BitG
TANYA HAS TIME FOR DILLARDS, NOT SAFEWAY?
Nicole said:
But these folks are too busy going to the sleep comfort and jewelry stores to care.
Right. Nicole, you reminded me of a series of posts on Tracy's blog called "PERSONAL SHOPPERS" about women hand-picked by kekel to do tanya's grocery shopping for her.
TANYA KEKEL ALWAYS HAD TIME TO HOP IN DADDY'S (rdub) CADILLAC AND DRIVE 45 MINUTES OR MORE UP TO SEATTLE SO SHE COULD BY EXPENSIVE STUFF FROM NIEMAN MARCUS (CALLED BY ntcc "NEEDLESS MARKUPS") AND DILLARDS AND YOU NAME IT...$$$
BUT SHE NEVER HAD TIME TO GO 5 MINUTES DOWN THE ROAD AND DO HER OWN GROCERY SHOPPING???
WHAT A CROC!
THE PRIVILEGED LIFE OF THE RICH AND INFAMOUS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE SACRIFICE OF THE POOR AND IGNORANT.
WHAT A SHAM AND SCAM!!!
BitG
Jeff-
For you and yours, not the blog:
(Please Please)
Thanks again for the kind words. i needed to hear that my input is valuable. Sometimes i want to keep writing, but i stop because i don't want to take too much space.
There's just so much to say about what ntcc is and what God wants to do to comfort those who have been hurt by them. i'll just trust Him to direct when and where to share.
i pray you and your family have a blessed and peaceful Christmas as we all remember the best gift ever given from a Father's loving heart to a bunch of lost souls...
God Bless!
BitG
BitG said...
Sometimes i want to keep writing, but i stop because i don't want to take too much space.
Jeff said...
Buddy, in case you haven't noticed, I am the boisterous bloggster. You want to talk about taking up space; I've certainly taken up my share and I plan to take up a whole lot more. Unless Google has a limit, (which I don't know about) you just keep typing till your hearts content. People need to hear it anyway and you obviously have a wealth of information to share which is valued immensely.
Your kind words are appreciated as well. Exposing the NTCC via web-based forums can get somewhat tiresome however I truly believe there is a need and it's also good to know that my efforts are appreciated.
Christmas is almost here and my little boy is very excited and for that matter, so am I. There are certainly worse things in the world to look forward to like sending a minister to yet another struggling location so he and his wife can spend all their savings to yet struggle even more, to do no more, (when it comes right down to it) than fund RWD and Kekels continuing endeavors.
And then they do all this just to be criticized and ridiculed at conference for their lack of success, (unless of course they've successfully soaked their congregation for an excessive amount of money) which in RWDs eyes directly correlates to tangible success.
It's a sick cycle to say the least.
Jeff
AMEN TO THAT! It is a sick cycle!
Jeff said,
There are certainly worse things in the world to look forward to like sending a minister to yet another struggling location so he and his wife can spend all their savings to yet struggle even more, to do no more, (when it comes right down to it) than fund RWD and Kekels continuing endeavors.
And then they do all this just to be criticized and ridiculed at conference for their lack of success, (unless of course they've successfully soaked their congregation for an excessive amount of money) which in RWDs eyes directly correlates to tangible success.
It's a sick cycle to say the least. Jeff
JEFF, CONGRATS ON 50,000 Plus hits on your BLOG! You must be doing something right. And your self-moniker, the Boisterous Bloggster had me cracking up. And as far as appreciating your efforts, TOTALLY DUDE! ROCK ON!
BitG
I remember when I asked a preacher's wife about why she would act so excited about when there was a forecast of bad weather, she said that she enjoyed those days when she and her husband and family would just stay put in their house and not having to go and visit and go to church and do this and that, it was kind of sad hearing her say this.
But going back to the topic of money, I remember one conference when rwd told the audience that God would never bless some because it would destroy them.
So their lot in life was being poor. He had seen people that had had money and right away they would start getting all these things and forget about God.
I don't know if rwd was saying this to satisfy preachers that were already thinking, why they aren't getting blessed in the work of God.
I guess this premise makes somebody say that it is their own fault for not having anything, it isn't the org. fault that they are in the condition they are in, but because God doesn't want them to have anything.
Merry Christmas to All!
blovd
READ "THE SHACK" YET? (Wm. Paul Young) If not, do yourself a favor and pick up a copy. It's AWESOME. Be ready to pray too!
"rest homes for ministers and missionaries" authorized by NTCC's bylaws"
Its code for the VA!
I have the shack and love that book.
CM
from a fundamental evangelical perspective, i hear that there are some serious doctrinal flaws with that book.
Now, i know that a lot of you flinch at the mention of doctrine, because you just left a cultic church, but proper doctrine is what holds true Christianity together.
sooo..just measure what your reading by the Bible and be careful.
sincerely,
T
Somebody mentioned RDubb's dreams? I recall one such, "as such" as they used to like to say... He was in St. Louis at the old stadium (now torn down) The sinners were persecuting christians... and had them all gathered together- ready to kill the NTCC'ers and then the Rapture came. And they were all delivered. Is funny now- why did they move from St. Louis? The Northwest is cold and wet? HUh?
If I remember correctly Rev. Davis said that someone donated the land in Washington to the org. and that's why they moved there.
You can read a book like the Shack and get what the author was getting at. Take God out of THE BOX! Lots of discussions I have already read of folks getting into it. over Doctrinal flaws.
Read most "religiousy" books. And some or all are going to have one mess or more. Take and GLEAN what you can and disregard the rest.
The Shack can reach folks that totally DISLIKE organized churchy religions(catholic,Baptist,Methodist,ect) It can be used as a useful tool to reach folks that are not going to be reached any other way.
For me. I can not attend any of those churchy churches. non-D. churches is for me. And the Shack I can relate to. We had God TOTALLY in a Box in ntcc. And now he has been set Free. just like I have been set Free from the bondage in ntcc puts on EVERYONE!
CM
RE: First land in Graham--- No, we students we compelled to make pledges for the first 7 acre tract there. It was $50,000. Jobs for students out in the rural area? hard to find. Give me some other logic, Anon.
And re: pledges, we were forced mentally to give pledges for: Bus Ministry, Pews, Paneling, Missions, you name it- we were compelled. And every year a 1,000.00 pledge for missions- what missions? NTCC does not help new ministers in the field.
One week Sis. Olson had about 5 dollars for food for the week. I guess they ate beans and wieners. All this was sacrificing for the Lord? Obedience to "the man" was interpreted as obedience to the Lord. He was always teaching how to leverage use other people's money as someone here pointed out.
Oh, and the first building in Graham (well, the 2nd, the first was the parsonage...) I trod around in concrete in my own boots an also carried up cedar shakes to RW's roof- only to have him tell those in St. Louis Conference there was a worked in WA who only wanted to push a pencil and not get dirty- what a bold-faced lie! They LOVE to tear you down in front of the other ministers! This is character assassination- of which they are experts! anybody else been subject to this politics of personal destruction at NTCC?
As soon as they know you think for yourself- you a prime candidate to be shot down- verbally harangued all over America! They control but destroying the real you! The inner spirit of many preachers has been whittled down by their demagoguery! Well, "as such" as they loved to say!
CM,
I felt that my comment would be taken that way, seeing that you guys have escaped a cult like church. On the other hand, taking god out of the ntcc box is necessary, but allowing God's word to define him is also necessary. Once that is gone we no longer have the true Jesus but only a figment of an authors imagination of Jesus
I know the doctrine in ntcc is extremely flawed if not outright evil, but we can't just throw off doctrine altogether. The Shack misrepresents the person of God in many subtle ways- disregarding all discernment is a rather drastic response don't you think?
T
I get your point dd, and am sorry that you were "one" of the people they just loved to hate.
I guess when you are not liked by the group, you are never going to be one of them.
They will do anything to run you out of town even if it takes them to touch your character and say a bunch of untruths so that the others will stay away from you. Been there, done that.
blovd
"The Shack misrepresents the person of God in many subtle ways- disregarding all discernment is a rather drastic response don't you think?"
Maybe that's true--I've only read excerpts--but CM didn't disregard all discernment; she said plainly that one should glean what is beneficial (and no doubt at least parts of "The Shack" are) and disregard the rest. There's no need to be superstitions about doctrinal contamination if one is secure in the faith. Spiritual wisdom is to be found even in secular works (if one doesn't disregard all discernment, that is). A recommendation doesn't necessarily constitute uncritical endorsement.
Thanks Vic.
That is exactly what i was getting at. I can read Frank Periti books and The Shack. And enjoy it for a good read,Glean what I can.Disregard what I know is wrong. I do not need to debate a book to take something from it.
CM
Vic,
Your response sounds very enlightened and liberating...what do you make of the passage in which Jude exhorts believers to "contend earnestly for the faith"?
The author of "the shack" is intentionally misrepresenting the God of the Bible. If he claims to be a Christian or not, i don't know, don't you think it is proper for Christians to have an intelligent and biblically accurate respose to those who may ask or not understand?
T
T,
how Exactly is the Shack misrepresenting God?
Since your so intent on going into this!
CM
"The author of "the shack" is intentionally misrepresenting the God of the Bible. If he claims to be a Christian or not, i don't know, don't you think it is proper for Christians to have an intelligent and biblically accurate respose to those who may ask or not understand?"
Now how do you know the author is intentionally misrepresenting anything? Do you profess some kind of supernatural discernment? Maybe he's a guy who is sincere and trying to do what he can to help people overcome some of the more negative aspects of the modern institutional church. It's fine to disagree with him, and to "earnestly contend" by refuting what you see as flaws in his work. But that's different from judging his motives, or trying to dictate where people should seek insight. God owns all truth, no matter where we might find it.
Vic,
your seeming "intellect" causes you to run in circles like a dog chasing his tail. maybe Rev Davis is sincere as well? you never know, who are we to judge?
maybe your just sour and bitter because your a cast off from a legitimate church?
get my point?
the reason i can say for sure that he is purposely misrepresenting God is because he is using the name of Jesus without keeping his person in the proper context.
sometimes you need to take a stand for things. it verifies what ntcc says about your exit when you give the appearance of "you just cant know anything"
T
Now how do you know the author is intentionally misrepresenting anything? Do you profess some kind of supernatural discernment? Maybe he's a guy who is sincere and trying to do what he can to help people overcome some of the more negative aspects of the modern institutional church. It's fine to disagree with him, and to "earnestly contend" by refuting what you see as flaws in his work. But that's different from judging his motives, or trying to dictate where people should seek insight. God owns all truth, no matter where we might find it.
OMG! This is awesome Vic. Thanks for sharing this tid big of wisdom!
T may have that same kind of stinkin thinkin' stuck in his head. RW says,I know if your saved or not saved. Supposedly T,knows what the author of The Shacks intentions are. Did you even read the front of the book?
CM
CM
T, sorry you look at it that way. I wouldn't presume to judge your motives either, no matter how they may look. You are in error, however, when you suggest I'm bitter or sour; I'm actually quite mellow and sweet, if a bit sharp at times. Nor have I been a "castoff" from any church in the land, so no, I don't get your point.
I don't think you got my point, however, which is that maybe this author (not that I claim to know) doesn't have Jesus in the proper context himself, in which case he is not INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting anything, even if he's wrong. Why pointing that out causes you to become so hostile is mystifying.
The thing I take a stand against is Talibanish control tactics by religious fundamentalists of any stripe. God is not the least threatened by a book, and any 'faith' so weak that we can't defend it even to ourselves must be spurious anyway.
Keep the wheat, throw out the chaff. Such a simple solution, and yet so controversial!
Vic
The thing that astounds me most about ntcc is the lack of Bible knowledge of those who have attended!! My relative can quote scripture back and forth but has no concept of the proper historical background or context and has no interest in studying to show himself approved.
Im sorry if i come off as a "fundamental evangelical Christian" but i actually believe the Bible and expect to be able to have a somewhat intelligent conversation about Christianity with people who seemed to have a grasp of scripture at one time.
It saddens me that a lot of people who have left ntcc seem to have left the faith as well- that kind of over reaction just verifies what ntcc teaches in there own warped minds
T
T said...
The thing that astounds me most about ntcc is the lack of Bible knowledge of those who have attended!!
Jeff said...
Knowledge puffeth up T, and having said that many of us have a very good degree of biblical knowledge.
You frequently want to turn these discussions into a quote "debate" about doctrine. The one thing that you have failed to learn is that doctrinal debates are almost always generated by someone who doesn't have the spiritual capacity to show true love to other Christians who don't share the same view a they do, and doctrinal debates are almost always caused by someone who has a holier than thou, judgmental attitude.
The NTCC leadership has consistently suggested that they have a lock on true biblical understanding and that everyone else is wrong no matter how small the infraction with biblical interpretation. Well I'm convinced that virtually no one has a corner on complete biblical interpretation and also I'm totally convinced that you are no exception T.
There are some obvious mistakes made by many people where Bible understanding is concerned, but there are greater mistakes made by folks who think they totally understand the Bible and as a result they judge everyone else who they think doesn't understand the Bible. I have also learned that for the most part, frequent church goers are the most churchy, super spiritual, hypocritical folks that you will ever meet having no real understanding about true love and true care and concern for other people. All they care about is that you believe the same way as they do and if you don't they believe you've missed the mark and somehow you've missed God. They feel that their frequency in church attendance is verification and evidence of their spirituality and there understanding of the Bible is evidence of God in their lives.
There could be nothing further from the truth. The statement that you wrote indicating that you feel that you have a more complete biblical knowledge than most people who have left the NTCC shows that you have an overinflated opinion of yourself in that respect.
If we all must have a complete and unscathed understanding of the Bible before we make it to heaven, then none of us will be going to include you T and that is my true feeling on the matter. Not everyone that disagrees with you about the Bible is wrong T. Is it possible that you could periodically be wrong about the Bible T? Think about it.
Jeff
The thing that astounds me most about folks who feel that they totally understand the Bible is that they more often than not have no ability to relate to, or understand other believers who don't interpret the Bible the same why that they do.
Jeff
Jeff, Vic, CM,
Im sorry if i was coming off as critical or pharisaical, that is not my intention or my attitude.
I in no way think that i have a superior understanding of the bible than all else. or that i am a superior christian. It is only the blood of Christ that i depend on and lean on every day
the thing that troubles me though is that as someone who takes the Bible seriously, i feel that organizations such as ntcc can be proven wrong from scripture.
Seriously, they feel justified when people depart from the true evangelical faith as a response to their false doctrines.
Vic,
I was not in any way suggesting that those things were true! i was using the example of ntcc's opinion of you to make a point that there is truth we can depend on and life is not just all a matter of opinion.....im sorry if i offended you and did not clarify myself.
Jeff,
albeit this is your blog, the discussion is not really your business, if you feel you have to play "protector" for Vic, i dont think you give him enough credit, he is able to debate me without your hostile defense.
as far as being a pharisee goes i think you have clarified in your response that you are judgmental as well.
again, i am sorry if you misunderstood me, but i think there is certainly a place to defend the faith, otherwise we end up with relativism
t
T said...
Jeff,
albeit this is your blog, the discussion is not really your business, if you feel you have to play "protector" for Vic, I don't think you give him enough credit, he is able to debate me without your hostile defense.
As far as being a pharisee goes i think you have clarified in your response that you are judgmental as well.
Jeff said...
I wasn't speaking on Vic's behalf because I happen to know that Vic is far more able and capable to speak on his own behalf than I am. The fact is Vic is most certainly more capable to speak on my behalf than I am. I wasn't speaking on Vic's behalf, I was speaking on my own.
You made a blanket statement when you said "is the lack of Bible knowledge of those who have attended". "Those" being a word that represents plural which covers a whole lot of people to include me.
Now as far a judgmentalism goes, biblically speaking, Christ pretty regularly made some kind of response to the religious folks of his day and frankly without intending to be insulting, that was the direction I was heading.
If the truth be known I don't care how much bible knowledge I possess or anybody else possesses for that matter. I am what I am, and I know what I know, and I'm not insecure in that matter. I am no more or no less then exactly what I am.
I work with a guy almost every single day who is in the NTCC and has been for many years, and we get along fine. He knows my stance quite clearly (where the NTCC is concerned) and I know his. For the most part we don't bring up the NTCC but if it does come up we have both learned (it seems) how to avoid debate and or disagreement. I'm not trying to appease him or practice relativism; I would just simply rather get along with him and consequently we collectively do quite well at that.
Now he does of course invite folks to the NTCC while I try to dissuade the same folks from attending. Strangely enough,that fact doesn't seem to have any effect on our peaceful relationship.
I simply no longer care what he believes and he doesn't seem to care what I believe. I realize that neither one of us would effectively persuade the other so what difference does it make what either of us believes.
Having said that this blog has been instrumental in exposing the NTCC and I happen to know this for a fact. I may not be able to have much or any influence on my work associate but many of us have been effectively able to influence folks to see the real truth about the NTCC which is precisely and explicitly what this blog was designed for and what this blog is all about.
Take care T,
Jeff
Thanks for your response Jeff,
i appreciate it, and again, i am sorry if i have appeared to be judging others in a non-biblical way. i consider all of us part of the same team to dismantle these crooks and appreciate yourself, cm and vic completely
thanks,
T
THE SHACK--IT'S FICTION-HELLO!!
The Shcak, which i learned much from and enjoyed immensely, is a work of fiction and by definition non-factual.
That doesn't mean it is junk.
It also makes people who think the author has subtily misrepresented God sound really paranoid and in my opinion rather chhildish and silly in their fear of all things.
LIGHTEN UP!
God ain't scared.
The author clearly establishes that it is a work of fiction.
Please stop straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
BitG
T said...
I consider all of us part of the same team to dismantle these crooks
Jeff said...
Amen to that brother. I consider us to be the same, and you have for a good period of time been a very effective contributor to the team effort. I clearly understand the benefit to sound doctrine however I have learned that there are more differences with what people consider sound doctrine then there are tennis shoes owned by Michael Jordon. That is the main reason that I try to stay away from such topics.
Now I have pretty sternly and openly apposed NTCCs stance on women working on the job for a few reasons. Number 1, because that very belief and practice has caused more NTCC people to find themselves in poverty then Michael Jordon has tennis shoes and number 2 because the scripture the NTCC uses to support that practice is way off base.
If a woman wants to be a stay at home wife and mom then that is great and I respect it but to claim it is a matter of heaven or hell can not be biblically justified. I am just using that for an example to illustrate that I understand that I haven't totally stayed away from doctrine and or scripture discussions during my tenure on this and every other NTCC associated online forum.
I've actually enjoyed the message exchange between you and Vic but I figured I would throw my two cents in. I hadn't added much for a while but you were right with stating that the discussion really didn't concern me because it didn't. I actually like it when apposing views arise on this blog because it shows that this blog isn't totally one sided. There have been times that Vic and I had differences in opinion and I remember a specific case concerning my assessment that the NTCC kept the 39 acres in the corporate name as a means to avoid paying taxes on it. Vic categorically refuted my assessment and I respect that.
At that time we did not agree and we had a few exchanges.
It's good to hear from you T and you as well as anyone understands the propensity for this kind of blog to generate disagreement.
I wish you the best and hope you have a happy new year. Once again take care,
Jeff
Jeff recently replied to T correctly noting:
"doctrinal debates are almost always generated by someone who doesn't have the spiritual capacity to show true love to other Christians who don't share the same view a they do,..."
AMEN. And that describes ntcc so well. And as others pointed out, such super-spiritual intolerance is as huge warning flag of a cult.
Cults do brainwash members into thinking their group has exclusive truth and passage to paradise.
Now for balance: rdub has at times given lip-service stating there are other Christians out there (how indicative, in other words outside of ntcc)...
But ask him to cite an example. duh. nothin'. He can't. Coz he really either doesn't believe it; or he is afraid you will leave ntcc and join the other group.
He even scoffs his and verna's family members' professions of faith--they must not be real Christians; they are not in ntcc--and that is significant.
i find it interesting that the closer people get to rdub, verna, tanya, mckekel, and the other uppity muckity mucks, the more likely those people are to leave ntcc. It shows the hypocrisy in the 'leaders' lives that their own family members don't join ntcc and those in ntcc who get close to them subsequently leave. Stinky lindbergher cheese.
Christ is magnetic and welcoming and warm and genuine. ntcc are plastic and phony facades. The longer you are around them, the more you see it. They are steel claws trying to hide behind velvet gloves; just push a little and you will see their true and ugly colors coming out trying to eviscerate you.
BitG
T,
You never went through what We went through. Have you been sent out to a pioneer work. Where all the finances comes down on ONE man's shoulders. The man that went to that city. And then there is his family,getting the morsels leftover. And that man has to see that his family is not really getting taken care of. The way he would like to. As the Head of the household.
We are told,keep the Faith,believe in God,continue to SACRIFICE> I put that in capitol letters. Because ntcc leaders have no idea what sacrfice really is.
We went without food. Went to foodbanks. Had out vechile repocessed. And was almost kicked out of our home and was homeless!
And you are amazed that some of us that have left ntcc. Have also left God. I am not one of those that has disregarded Gods word,entirely! Do I question if there is a God,yes I do have holes in my faith in God! I saw all my friends dirt poor in ntcc.
What I find amazing is you,one that never lived through what we lived though. To sit and make comments like the one's you did. Come and walk in the shoes that we walked in. And then we will talk. JUST having a family member in ntcc does not consitute the same experience's and brainwashing,and control on our ENTIRE lives! That many of us lived through for upTEEN years or even more then that!
CM
RW and MK and the other fake leaders are also Pharsical. So is that being judgmental as well,T?
CM
I think it's possible that there may be a slight misunderstanding here. Which ever the case, I'm posting all messages so all feel free to write what you wish.
I value everyone's input without exception. Through it all there should be one message that resounds quite clearly. The NTCC and it's thoroughly insensitive leadership has done a substantial amount of damage to the lives of many. I think we can all agree on that one.
Jeff
ntcc taught me to HATE:
Someone once asked me, "Good God, what did they teach you at that church??"
Well, they taught me how to HATE.
i mean really, really HATE.
HATE THEIR HYPOCRISY.
HATE THEM MISREPRESENTING GOD.
"I HATE THEM WITH PERFECT HATRED: I COUNT THEM MINE ENEMIES."--PSALM 139V22
PLEASE NOTE: That last statement comes from the scripture / psalm.
So save your cyber ink and don't tell me i'm bitter or judgmental.
There's a time and place for everything. And you should hate anyone or anything that tries to come between you and God.
The apostle Paul expressed his hate of phonies thus:
LET THEM BE ANATHEMA MARANATHA--
Let them be accursed at the return of the Lord (anathema literally without breath or spirit).
Yes, ntcc taught me how to hate.
BitG
CM,
with all due respect, i understand that you have suffered greatly, being a part of ntcc, yet you must realize that God is in control of the lives of all his children and i could potentially claim the same mind-set, that you haven't walked in my shoes.
Vic, CM, BitG, and Jeff,
when reading anything that i write on this blog try to picture me with a smile on my face and not as some dour Davis clone. I only give my opinion because i feel that proper doctrine leads to proper thinking and proper thinking leads to proper living...i have no ill intentions toward anyone here, i wish you all the best.
...i do have a tendency to debate, (personality type i guess)
i do disagree with blanket statements that some of you have made suggesting that anyone who debates scripture does not live with love. i find it goes both ways, there are those who debate scripture and have no love at all and there are those who dont know the bible and cant live with love. then there are the few who truly love the lord and abide in his word!!! may we all seek his face and be dilligent to enter into his rest on a daily basis!!
amen??
T
T, you have my Amen. I understand where you are coming from possibly better than you think or know. I value your views whether I agree or not, and I do often agree with what you have to say. Not always of course but we are two different people so that's to be expected.
I understand the benefit of "sound" doctrine for any Christian but I also understand that two different people aren't ever going to totally agree with one another. Paul didn't agree with one of Peter's chronicled decisions. Did that mean that Peter was hell bound and that Christ made a mistake with ever choosing Peter? I wouldn't think so. Hey we are all different and none of us are perfect and that's not an excuse, that is just a fact.
NTCC ministers would regularly attempt to teach and preach the notion of Christian perfection, however the ones teaching that were the ones furthest from perfection.
Even if an exNTCCer who left the NTCC went head over heals into sin, that wouldn't change the truth about the evil deeds which have in fact been perpetuated by the NTCC leadership. This blog isn't about keeping folks in the faith, it's about exposing the NTCC crooks.
This may sound harsh but I could care less what kind of life exNTCCers are living. I'll bet exNTCCers are not using people daily like the NTCC leadership does. I'll bet they are not trying to break up marriages like the NTCC leadership does. I'll bet they are not going after young impressionable GI's just because they have a steady paycheck like the NTCC leadership does. RWD has taught that all along. It's no secret. The NTCC leadership doesn't even want you soul winning in low income areas. The NTCC leadership doesn't care about winning people without jobs. They want folks who are impressionable and have money, plain and simple, and young GI's fit the build.
So I guess what I'm saying is that this blog isn't about Christianity or moral living or sound doctrine, it's about exposing the NTCC.
Many of us are quite sensitive toward preaching so to speak anyway, because we were hammered by hypocritical, crooked NTCC ministers for years and as a result we are less inclined to even want to hear suggestions concerning our daily life to include Christian practices and doctrine. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Jeff
No worries, T; I'm not a grudge holder. I don't have any problem with doctrinal debates, but that's not what you were doing; you were warning everyone not to read a book in which you said the author intentionally misrepresented God, something it's not possible for you to know, unless he told you himself. I don't believe in censorship, and think it important for people to be exposed to different perspectives--even erroneous ones. If you have a problem with something in the book, then address it; don't just warn us all away like we're not capable of thinking for ourselves. No one is going to slip on a banana peel and 'lose out' as long as they continue to pursue truth, no matter what they read.
I realize that this topic is out of line with what the thread is discussing, but I would like to bring this to peoples attention. I am an avid viewer of Facebook, and have came across several people within, and without NTCC who have attended the cults teaching (also known as their seminary) and claim that they have schooling in the Psychology field. This is not only laughable, but it is a complete LIE! None of us within and without NTCC that sat under RW Davis teaching can even make such a statement. Davis himself has no such schooling, and his so called doctorate in Psychology is a farce because the man fails to come forth with any tangible proof that he possesses such an accomplishment, none the less the lemmings that follow him. Davis doesn't even have a legitimate degree in Theology, and neither do you, it was all a sham folks. Its bogus! The only knowledge you have of the Bible is that which you have read yourself. Most of you within NTCC barely have enough brains to get out of that cult, nonethe less boast that you have schooling in the Psychology field. The only experience any of us in and out of NTCC have is in the school of hard knocks, by being duped by a con man like Davis.
Sincerely;
A former Lay Pastor
Just reading the debate back and forth and all I can say is I read the entire bible while I was in "seminary" and memorized what I could.
I had a nice dinner tonight with my family. I actually got to have a decent conversation with my almost 15 yr old and suddenly he asked if I was not allowed to work while we were in ntcc.
A big chunk of his childhood was spent near Graham. I explained some things to him and told him I'm happy to see some of the children (especially the girls) that used to have to go there are now going to college. Life is about balance and if a woman is happy at home great, but it shouldn't be a prison where she's banned from experiencing anything else in life.
Everything should be in a healthy balance.
Former Lay Pastor: I understand your point but you may very well be mistaken but not intentionally. You may not know this but I know of at least three NTCC pastors that have attended secular colleges while serving as an NTCC pastor, and one says that he got a degree in psychology from a secular college.
He has openly stated that he went to college while serving as an NTCC pastor after he left Graham Washington. I know of another NTCC pastor who attended college and he said that he knew of yet another so that makes three that I know of one of which (as I've already stated) said that his degree was in psychology. These degrees would not have come from RWDs schools of rules other wise known as the NTCS.
So what I'm saying is that there may have been some truth to what you are finding which just validates what some of us have written right here concerning the NTCC double standard. I know the NTCC knows about one NTCC pastor attending college because he openly wrote about it so it wasn't anything that was kept in secret.
Jeff
Former Lay Pastor,
I saw that very thing and thought the same thoughts. First of all, the person in question stated many times that he was LEAVING Ntcc and has yet to leave-- even though it's been a couple of years since he said that. That tells me he doesn't think ntcc is all that bad.
Second, you are absolutely correct. NTCC does NOT give out a REAL college degree, something Davis himself pointed out once there started being problems from 3rd parties looking into it. The fact that this person put he has a Theological AND Psychological degree from ntcc is a fraudulent claim! It's amazing to me that someone who claims that lying is a sin, lies himself about his credentials. And this is also a person who questioned every statement that any ex-ntccer wrote on Factnet as a lie. (The hypocrisy of ntcc preachers is something to behold!).
AXP
What I noticed that alot of people that left NTCC are getting their degrees in Psychology.
I never went to the seminary however the school I am attending now is wonderful!
Ns
"Sincerely;
A former Lay Pastor"
Those are strong words, Brother, But true. I never went to "Bible School" But I agonized over and over about it, and wondered if I had made the correct decision about the fact or not. Whenever you hear certain things over and over about obedience, Rebellion, adinfinidum adnauseaum it becomes a knee jerk reation to think that if you don't do what you are told, and be an obedient little boy and go and work in THEIR self described vineyard then the only thing left for you is Hell.
I did do some checking on R'Dubs degrees. I know all about how degrees work, especially in the field of Religion. Right now I don't have time to expound on the subject and this is not a "Dedicated Thread" for that so I'll try to stay within certain perameters. I asked the same question on Factnet 4 or 5 years ago about his so called "Degrees" and no one had a direct answer. Maybe in the future this is a subject that could be visited on this Blogsite.
I think some are referring to the 3 classes we took in seminary. Psychology of self development 1-3. I'm not saying they were great classes just that that's what some might be referring to.
Jeff when I can get some time I want to give you a call, and get a chance to speak with you.
Former Lay Pastor.
By all means; 404-405-7842.
Jeff
hey former lay pastor, you still in Washington ?
if so, let me know
dth.
thanks.
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