Just a little trivial information and something that I've noticed. NTCC women generally, are thoroughly obsessed with loosing weight, growing hair, purses, shoes, and clothes. The reason that I'm saying this is because a great deal of what NTCC women post on the internet deals with one of those areas.
Now I understand that most people like to have nice clothing to obviously include women outside of the NTCC. The main difference between these groups (women in the NTCC vs women not in the NTCC) is that women not in the NTCC quite frequently have interests other then the ones that I've listed above; and why is that? Because RWD and the NTCC leadership have reduced women to second class citizens who the NTCC teaches should have little interest in any other possessions or activities. So the result is that if you search the internet you will find that NTCC women discuss little more then loosing weight, growing hair, purses, shoes, and other clothing items; PERIOD!!! Essentially, pure undefiled vanity has become their key pursuit in life.
No goals, no objective, (other than loosing weight it seems) and no real direction other than to follow their man who lives only to follow RWD while watching both he and Kekel gain more wealth at the expense of everyone else's sacrifice. This is done only for the majority of the NTCC women to be left desolate and destitute when their husbands die with the NTCC nowhere in sight while Tanya Kekel sits fat and happy having inherited a piece of what everyone in the NTCC has ever done.
It should be an eye opener when you look at it like this because it is what it is.
Jeff
135 comments:
HA HA YOU ARE HOMELESS...
Diana (Marshall) Hampton is perhaps one of the sweetest Christian ladies you will ever encounter. If you know her, you know what I'm talking about. She just really loves the Lord. And as a result she really loves people; and it shows in how she treats them, and what she does for them.
For years (20+?) she worked with her husband Mike Marshall in various ntcc churches like the Tillicum Servicemen's home growing it into one of the biggest homes in ntcc, easily running fifty or so folks for fellowship / snacks after church services.
They also went out on the mission field in the Philippines where Mike got in trouble and rdub ran him off with the infamous, "If you walk out that door, I'm not coming after you." slam-dunk.
Many years of faithful service meant nothing to the ntcc pigs.
So Diana starts over.
She marries Rich Hampton whose wife Penny had run off with Helen Ashmore's son Jerry (or is it Gerry?). Reads like a tabloid, right?
Well, rdub was always wanting to get more free labor from his workers, so the demands were high and Jerry was working late in the B.S. office and Penny shows up and yada yada yada: broken home, ruined lives, hurting children... wmat a mess. Just so rdub can squeeze a bit more out of a brother.
So Rich and Diana and Rich's four kids move to Mexico, Missouri to pastor the ntcc church. But Rich has a bad back from working for years with heavy windshields. So there's no money coming in. And in an attempt to keep this family of six off the street, the workers in Mexico, Missouri, the Dixons who have two kids of their own offer to let the Hamptons stay with them.
So here's this precious family living out of a garage.
rdub knows.
Does he do anything to help:?
NOTHING.
Unless you call staying away from them helpful...
After some time, God moved Diana's mother to help them and they did get a house or two...
But they were in that garage for some time.
And rdub did nothing to help.
And they for years had helped build his empire.
Rdub, you are truly a shameful scumbag.
BitG
Jeff wrote,
This is done only for the majority of the NTCC women to be left desolate and destitute when their husbands die with the NTCC nowhere in sight while Tanya Kekel sits fat and happy having inherited a piece of what everyone in the NTCC has ever done.
It should be an eye opener when you look at it like this because it is what it is.--Jeff
BitG says,
It is what it is, Jeff; and
IT STINKS!
--Good Thread--
BitG
All I ever heard in ladies conversations. Latest dress sale at the BON. Did you use that coupon and get double off this week.
Such and such thrift store is having a storewide sale. Some ladies would try and stuff and hide items. So they could get in and grab them. We all shopped at the sameplace's. Wore similar dresses. Just a different color. I was so happy when we left WA. I could find cloths that none of them had worn or seen before!
I just recently saw a ladies hair that is still in ntcc. It is just about down to her ankle's. She was showing it off. Talk about PRIDE!LOL
It looked scraggly,very thin. And that is supposed to bring glory to God. It is not a covering lady. It is a mop!
I was usually steamed and angry. That I could not have a decent conversation with any of the ladies. Pretty much all I had was my husband to talk to. If I wanted to talk about something that really mattered in life! He used to quote a few women in ntcc. That did seem to use there head more then just a resting place for there poof!LOL
sister Rodriguizes,tanya K.Was a few ladies that were older then me. No leaders wive's. They also could hold a real conversation.
VERY,VERY FEW in ntcc. Know how to actually talk. Without talking about soul-winning,coupons,what hair growth product they are using,what FAD diet they are following,who can get permission to go walking with whom,lets catch the next department store sale. Because all they can afford is sale or clearance items!
Thank goodness I am so free from all that. I talk with folks about so many topis these days! I do not have to pretend to be stupid. Those women do have brains. They have to pretend to be stupid. I am here to serve my Master,my husband. Again,something I got tired of seeing. Women making there husbands meal before there own. He is a grown man he can get his own food,even iron his own shirt!
Ladies we are not living in the 1920's. It is now 2010! You do not have to wait for your husband to GIVE you money.give you permission on what you wear. Make you take him shopping with you. Because he is jealous! Get out,join a book club,Moms group,Curve's. Anything that is allowed. And make friends outside of ntcc. Best thing you can do for your mentality.
ladies have you ever wondered. Why do I have to dress like Tanya,decorate like Tanya,do my hair like Tanya. Break free. And Be YOU!!
CM
BitG,
The Diana (Marshall) Hampton story is a very sad one. Diana and Mike were my first pastor way back when, and to this day she is one of the best persons I've ever met. A very sincere, good person. I was thinking of her recently and was very sad she has allowed herself to live a life of poverty and despair to be faithful to ntcc, when RW ISN'T faithful to her. She deserves alot better. But, that is the way it is in ntcc-- squeeze everyone for every drop of energy and cash they have then throw them to the wolves when you are done abusing them.
I wish more people would wake up to the fact that ntcc, and especially RW Davis, are EVIL-- yes, EVIL. That they don't care about anyone but themselves, and that all the so-called holiness and right living is just a facade for a spiritual Ponzi scheme created by a spiritual conman- Davis.
AXP (Another Ex-Preacher)
I was not obsessed with clothes while in ntcc. Didn't have time to go shopping. We were freakin' soulwinning and going to church and meetings for the better part of 5 days out of the week. and then some.
But one thing that annoyed me to no end was how a certain pastors wife would get onto the ladies for dressing sloppy or too casual or for our hair being a bit messy (and not immaculate like hers) for church services. I mean, we were soulwinning and picking up people in the wind, rain(Washington), and sometimes snow. In and out of the car constantly. So our clothes was a little wrinkled and our hair a bit unkepmt as we raced in the door for sevice with our contacts in tow.
So so so so glad and am out of there. All I can do is shake my head at the memory of how we put up with so much stupidity.
polaris
To CM
I think maybe one of the reasons that ladies wanted to dress, talk or decorate like TK was that their own likes and dislikes were dissed or made fun of at one time or another. denis' wife actually complained that TK copied her ideas for decorating.
polaris
CALLED TO BE CLONES
CM wrote this simple gem:
"Break free. And Be YOU!!"
Those who have never set foot in ntcc may wonder why you need to tell people in ntcc that, but...
First-time visitors at ntcc churches are quick to note how similar everyone looks. Men all in dark suits with white shirts and wingtip shoes. Women all with the poofy hair, no make-up, and dresses. Kids afraid to laugh or run or play least they bring the wrath of kahn on them. Oh yes, it is a sight to behold.
God said He say YOU in the womb. YOU should be an individual.
The ntcc mentality is sick and off the charts in its obsequious quest to gain favor by imitating the chosen few 'leaders'... Very sick.
Get a look.
Get a book.
Have a thought.
Break free and be you.
CM, good post!--
BitG
BE IMITATORS OF CHRIST - Eph. 5.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srH1CCVOXBI
That is a command to Christians.
And the word Christian means little Christ. Not little rdubs, little vernas, little tanyas,
in case you missed that part
You know, after I got saved, YHWH (it wasn't NTCC) shown me about modesty in the Bible.
I was excited because I wanted to please Him with my whole heart.
I didn't know the first place where to look (I was 20, just released from the Army, newly married and didn't have a lot of money).
My minister at that time suggested to another sister that her and I get together and hit up the Goodwill, which I didn't mind as I was a sucker for thrift stores, still am.
So we did, and I found some nice tops and skirts, not faded or ripped for a good price.
I was happy.
Over the next few months, I noticed a few of the sisters always going to Dillards or JCPenny for a sale.
Mind you, I never got into the whole purse / shoe thing, I still am not. I have 1 purse and 1 pair of shoes, that's all I need. :)
Anyway, going to Dillards and charging a new dress on the credit card ended up being my norm.
I was trying to keep us with some sisters and their wardrobes. I didn't know any better.
In time I realized I couldn't afford to do that anymore, and stopped, even took back some dresses and got money put back on the credit card.
I was just following what I seen.
I learned a lesson at that young age...just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't mean I do it too. :) You would have thought the Army would have taught me something...lol.
CM, get over yourself.
Wow, a sister has hair to her ankles. That's a blessing, a gift that YHWH has given her. You should rejoice that she hasn't chopped it all off to look like a butch femnazi.
A woman's long hair is her glory.
There is such a thing as a woman happily being submissive to her husband. Instead of being a selfish self absorbed woman, she looks to her husband and families needs first to see how she can better serve them before her own.
There are women who enjoy ironing their husbands shirts, cooking for him, taking care of the man YHWH has given to them, not because they are brainless twits, but because they love YHWH, they love their husband, their home, and are doing their best to fulfill that Titus 2 / Proverbs 31 woman.
Thank YHWH their are still women who haven't given into the ball busting, femnazi, manly, women our society has today.
You obviously do not keep up with many NTCC ladies...you are only going by what you knew back in your day.
Many ladies now lead girl scout troops, they do exercise classes, they do go out amongst society and have interests of their own.
.....................
On the other hand I do see how NTCC has compromised over the years with things.
It makes me sad, all the things that were preached against are now okay.
Will NTCC become just the next evangelical christian church? No different from the rest?
Only time will tell...
Tschuss!
Polaris said...
I think maybe one of the reasons that ladies wanted to dress, talk or decorate like TK was that their own likes and dislikes were dissed or made fun of at one time or another.
Jeff said...
Hey Polaris. I remember you from a different forum. Didn't you used to post on factnet? Hey it's good to have you here. We need all the help we can get.
Jeff
Hey Dawn. I read your message and I thoroughly understand how you feel. I see nothing wrong with a woman wanting to take care of her house, kids and husband but that must be choice of the husband and the wife; not the NTCC. No where in the Bible is there a mandate suggesting that a woman can't work on a job if she so desires.
I have covered this topic probably more than any other topic on this blog. NTCC's key scripture referencing the need for young women to be "keepers at home" means to be domestically inclined or a "good house keeper", PERIOD. It does not mean that a woman can't lawfully hold a job. There is no interpretation that could be farther from the truth.
Then having said that, just because a woman wants to be a stay at home mom or housewife (which is perfectly fine) doesn't mean that it is healthy for that woman to only think about shoes, purses, clothing, second hand cloths shopping, and loosing weight.
Everyone's metabolism is different and I understand that as well as anyone and some folks are just genetically larger people. The problem is if the woman spends most of her time around the house, and she is not tending to the fields and she is not doing the types of labor the we see women performing in the Old Testament, then it's not uncommon for such a woman to become overweight. Then the result is you have a large population of woman in the NTCC who are interested in little other than loosing weight because the NTCC system often results in them gaining too much weight by virtue of the NTCCs "mandated" lifestyle for women.
It's a sick cycle and it's hardly Biblical. We stay in shape with activity and you can only do so much walking around in the confines of your own home or apartment. It's just that simple. Then because they are mandated to have no other interests, they become obsessed with shoes, clothing, hair, purses and once again LOOSING WEIGHT which many of them have gained by virtue of their lifestyle. I see those very topics focused on by current women in the NTCC and the proof is on the internet.
It is a crazy cycle and as it relates to "this" blog the NTCC is the cause. I would have no problem with my wife being a stay at home "house keeper", (if she wanted to) but she wouldn't be a stay at home mom because all my kids are in school all day. There is only so much to do around the house every day when your kids are in school. I don't expect her or any other women to clean the ceiling when they run out of everything else to do and I am definitely not interested in hearing my wife only talk about clothes, purses, shoes, hair and loosing weight.
If a women wants to work then there is no problem with that and if her working can help the household financially then what's wrong with that? There are too many poverty stricken NTCC households that would absolutely be financially better off it the wife got a job and the husband wasn't too insecure to let her!!!!
I can't help RWD's insecurities but he shouldn't teach them to everyone else without Biblical backing which he most definitely does not have in this case.
Jeff
AXP, AMEN. It saddens me as well.
Polaris shared:
But one thing that annoyed me to no end was how a certain pastors wife would get onto the ladies for dressing sloppy or too casual or for our hair being a bit messy (and not immaculate like hers) for church services. I mean, we were soulwinning and picking up people in the wind, rain(Washington), and sometimes snow. In and out of the car constantly. So our clothes was a little wrinkled and our hair a bit unkepmt as we raced in the door for sevice with our contacts in tow.--Polaris
...................
BitG said,
Yeah, tanya and verna and the wigs and door-to-door transportation in Cadillacs and Lexuses. And they never went soul-winning. Sick!
BINDING HEAVY BURDENS, NEVER LIFTING A FINGER TO HELP...
Good post. Glad to see you on here.
BitG
Happy to see Polaris here too.
In defense of the women of ntcc, sometimes you talk about things and you do things because you are afraid of being humiliated in front of a congregation or be accused of not being loyal enough.
Women in ntcc are reduced to these things out of FEAR. When I got married I didn't think having long hair and being a stay at home mom was such a big deal. Until rule piles on rule and you lose your whole identity.
Dawn I'm not sure why you think CM has to get over herself. And personally if you call every woman with short hair a "butch femnazi" you're judging the book by the cover. What if that butch feminazi works for Doctors Without Borders? Or does any other number of selfless acts?
Is that the number one priority - what a person looks like? Or who they are inside?
I hate to see people who are stuck in dysfunctional and/or abusive situations called stupid. Maybe they are biding their time like so many of us did to make a proper escape with their whole family intact.
In one of the classes that Davis taught two sisters were bickering or mad at each other for something... so one tattled on the other that she had started going to Curves.
Davis got very angry and told our whole class that if we have money to attend Curves, he was going to raise our tution.
If you choose to live a lifestyle that you believe is biblical then great, but don't chose to because you are afraid of losing your family, friends, home, your whole life because of certain leaders of a group.
I don't judge people who chose to live this way out of their own conviction, so I don't understand the hostility at women who chose a different hair length or lifestyle.
I did ask my husband a few times 'what happens if you get hurt or when its time to retire?'
I think it would help a lot of people to find somewhere online the definition and signs of a cult. And read about psychological coercion.
Nope sorry Dawn. Learned what submissive means. Since leaving ntcc. being a man's SLAVE is not being submissive.
Women in ntcc did cook,clean,Slave away. Just for the man to be happy. Would ask if she could go and buy a dress. And HAVE to get permission first. One lady had a small fine on her library card. He took her library card away. Rw used this in his preaching .And said that was Fine to do. Since it was HIS money! He earned it,she had to ask for money if she wanted to buy something. While the man went ahead and bought what he wanted,when he wanted.
And the hair issue. We are to have a covering,that is all that is biblical. Showing your hair off. Ladies Always going on and on about there hair. Because they got nothing else to talk about. Sorry ma'am they got a pride issue!
You obviously do not keep up with many NTCC ladies...you are only going by what you knew back in your day.
Many ladies now lead girl scout troops, they do exercise classes, they do go out amongst society and have interests of their own.
Thanks Dawn for sharing Even MORE Compromise that is going on in ntcc.
I got out three years ago. ALOT has CHANGED in three Short years. I was in a moms club. Something that was NOT encouraged when I was in. I went to a Curves. Again,something that was not encouraged. Leading a exercise class. That must mean there wearing PANTS,correct!
Watch and see. Those ladies that are takin steps of freedom,breaking out on there own. Will not be staying in ntcc.
Your version of modesty and submission is just that . Your own opinion!
I myself,do take care of my family. I am a SAHM for now. My kids are very well adjusted,happy children. Hubby is happy with my keeping of the home. That is all that matters to me. I got Gods approval on my life! Since it is really just between ME and God!
Everyone knows Mike K. wants the ntcc to be a super mega Church. Look at the changes so far. I can't tell much difference between them and any other Church down the road from them!
CM
Jeff,
Don't forget. Women in ntcc get a sedated lifestyle. Live on a poor income. So what is there diet made up of. Cheap,process food,lots of carbs. Not much fruit or fresh veggies are bought. They can't afford those splurges. Do they eat from healthier food options/ No,again they can not afford to eat healthy. So the cycle stays stuck. Eat yucky. Most women stay stuck at home all day. Since they only got ONE CAR! And there house has to be emaculate before she can go anywhere.
Dawn,there is a difference between clean and not a spot of dust can be seen. Verna and Tanya taught that in the classes for Minister's wive's. Make sure your ready for inspection at all time's and ready to invite the Bank president out to Church. ANYTIME you went out in public. Look emaculate,curled hair(fry those dead ends)ironed dry cleaned cloths,no runs in nylons,matching purse and shoes. Ready to go where????? Fred Myers to get your weekly groceries!
I am so much more Stress free these days. I do still look very much put together before I walk out the door. Even just to the bus stop to get my kids off to school. But I do not have to use the Hot rollers just to do my hair. I have not worn those nasty nylons since leaving ntcc,No purse and shoes that match. Funny thing,if ntcc is so fashion sense. To be in Fashion,your not Supposed to match shoes and purse!!
My hair is looking much more put together. And No I do not have what Dawn calls,A Butch haircut. Though that lady that has a so called "butch "hair cut. Still has a covering! Butch,sounds like ntcc jargon to me!!!
And NO more inspections as I walk into Church! Tanya loves to give the Up and down check when you walk in. Thankgoodness I do not need her appoval. Tanya,the one that is wearing the TIGHT cloths,slinky highheels,Scarfts that look like Choker's,blazer jackets so tight. That she can not raise her hands. Hyle Hitler!!! that is a ntcc church service. All sit at the same time,stand at the sametime,raise hands at the sametime,jump up and down at the sametime,run around the room at the sametime. ON AND ON!! How much more robotic can you get!!
ntcc has compromised.
But there changes are not unbiblical. Nor are they sinning.
Something sis,Kinson once shared with me.
I asked her a question about something I wanted to check into. Her answer,are you sinning? I said no,then your fine.
Ntcc with the sports,different taste in music,watching DVD's,now troop leaders,and heading up exercise classes. None of that is sinning against Gods word.
It is compromise. Only because RW Davis said there would be no changes. Or else he would be struck dead. Alot of changes have been made in the last five years. Some of that stuff had been going on long before that. But it was hidden and no one knew. Except the Elite Few!
ONLY because of blogs,factnet,and other internet venue's. Ntcc has been EXPOSED. So they have HAD to come clean. And now you see Mike K. doing damage control. Making up LIE's. To cover up there so called compromise! Mike and his family had only been living what is really deemed a normal life. Not a sinful life. Did not live under the same control and yoke of bondage that so many of us lived under!
Mike K. has now been quoted,Watching TV,wearing make-up,wearing jewlery is not preached against to Church members. It is not Biblical to do so. Only for the ministers and there families. Supposedly it is Biblical to hold tem to different standards. As if there more special in Gods eyes then a Church member????NOT!
CM
HOW IS LIFE IN ntcc?
AXP described it well for one lady, but it is true for all:
YOU "live a life of poverty and despair to be faithful to ntcc, when" ntcc "ISN'T faithful to" YOU.
Good point AXP.
BitG
HOW WILL ntcc TREAT YOU-YOURS?
"But, that is the way it is in ntcc-- squeeze everyone for every drop of energy and cash they have then throw them to the wolves when you are done abusing them."--AXP
..................................
BitG says, I'm not sure who AXP is. But I can tell from what he writes that he has experienced firsthand the cruelty of the ntcc toward those who do the work and receive no reward for their effort.
In fact, in ntcc you can be sure that none of your good deeds will go unpunished.
It's like I keep saying, the better you get at bringing people to them, the larger the target on your back gets.
They will run you off and try to destroy you. You are a threat to their scheme to preserve the davis dynasty.
davis's wealth and power are his true loves.
Any act PERCEIVED as a threat to his wealth or power will result in you being targeted and destroyed. Don't take just my word for it.
LOOK AROUND YOU.
Who are the people run off and lied about?--those who did the most for davis.
The closer you get to davis, the more likely it is you will be destroyed.
You will be expected to sacrifice, obey, work, do, do, do. But the moment verna or rdub think you are getting too popular with the people, WATCH OUT! YOU'RE GOING DOWN.
It is deliberate. The don't want you any more. They can replace you with a fresh sucker trying to make the grade and work for no pay and do, do, do all to impress davis.
It is sick and idolatrous and vile.
And it is real. It is really happening just like that every day in ntcc.
DON'T BE A PART OF THAT. LEAVE.
Because,
That IS how they treat people in ntcc.
BitG--BTDT
Dawn,
I think what CM was getting at that some of the women and their husbands did not have a choice about how they wanted to look.
I remember hearing about how make-up was a sin, then asking the Pastor where it was in the Bible. He would quote from how Jezebel looked, and other "cultural" examples.
Then jean skirts were a problem.
Then your personal style signature was a problem...
In Isiah 3:16 The Lord says
The LORD says,
"The women of Zion are haughty,walking along with outstretched necks,flirting with their eyes,tripping along with mincing steps,with ornaments jingling on their ankles."
God doesn't talk so much about what the ladies are wearing, but their "haughty attitude". You can be haughty wearing a burka.
I never thought make-up was a sin(My very Godly Grandmother wore make-up), however when this was voiced to the Pastor he used the vague clause of .."well if you want to live in rebellion."
Speaking of Grandma... I had a picture of her I really treasured and had it displayed in my living room. A couple of the brothers came over to help me move or something. I was telling them how she scrubbed floors to put my Dad through college, making him the first person in the family to go to college. I also told them about her well worn Bible. One brother remarked, well I am not sure if she is in heaven because she has that red lipstick on.
Dawn,
I didn't like Dillards clothing either...it was corny and old folks looking. I usually ordered from catalogs like Newport News, or Speigal.
I agree with most of your post. Most men don't realize submission is a gift. Also submission has more to do with the ladies relationship with God, than her relationship with the husband. Simple statement, but some men don't get it.
I must say I detest the term Feminazi. If it wasn't for a few radical females, I wouldn't be able to vote and probably would be sitting in the back of the bus.
Women should be celebrated, and terms like femi-nazi...butch, ugle pouf do nothing but separate sister-hood.
Well off to school :)
ns
DIANA AND RICH DO DESERVE BETTER
Diana, in addition to being sweet and kind and loving, is also a prayer warrior. And she has never forgotten what it is like to be without God, searching for Him, and not even knowing what it is you're seeking. That's amazing, when you consider what the woman's been put through.
And that is the key to real Christianity.
Rich isn't a bad guy either. Don't think bad about him for not being able to work with a bad back. And don't talk bad about him the way rw davis does.
Rich is exactly what Diana prayed for: a man who loves unconditionally.
That is another key in Christianity--unconditional love.
And ntcc does not have unconditional love. Their 'love' is very conditional. They are very selfish, self-seeking, and self-preserving.
The davis dynasty must be preserved at all costs.
And that's why Diana had to be destroyed. A woman like her praying for the man she loves, builds him up into a real leader and go-getter. And ntcc was ready to milk that cow for all it was worth.
But once the Marshalls got too popular in the eyes of the people, they had to go. That's a threat to the davis dynasty. So Mike Marshall is run off.
But in order to destroy Diana, it is necessary, in rw davis's twisted mind, to be sure she does not make a leader out of the next man she marries. See?
So rw hires verna one more time to do his dierty match-making for him.
Being sure to choose a man that rw says, "That fella will never build a work for God."--quoting rw davis maligning Rich Hampton.
Now, the bible says he that repeateth a matter separateth friends. And I would to God that I could separate the Hampton's from davis. Because davis has only been a 'friend' to them the way that judas iscariot was a friend to Jesus.
And the bible says the kisses of an enemy are deceitful; but the wounds of a friend are faithful.
so next time davis tells you how much he "loves you", and "appreciates you" remember that these kisses of your enemy are deceitful.
And remember that though I have wounded you in telling you these shameful truths about davis, I am doing it faithfully as a true friend...
BitG
P.S. If you don't believe me, ask your buddy Russ. He was there too.
And I hope you two do build a great work for God outside of ntcc with thousands of souls being saved and you and yours living the blessed happy lives in Christ that you deserve!
Nicole wrote...
Davis got very angry and told our whole class that if we have money to attend Curves, he was going to raise our tuition.
Jeff said...
That is a totally startling testimony and it will certainly be be the main text used to compose the next thread. In fact I'm getting ready to do it right now.
It will be up shortly. RWD is such a controlling crook it is unbelievable. Certain statements catch my attention and this was one of them. Wake up NTCC folks because this is what RWD is all about. He wants control of all your money and time. The guy should be in prison.
Jeff
BitG: AXP is an exNTCC pastor who spent a good MANY years in the NTCC. I don't know your identity which is perfectly and absolutely fine but I happen to know his for all it is worth. He and I have been friends for quite a while.
I really appreciate your presents here on this blog BitG. Feel free to call if you ever have the desire. If you ever want to create any topics for our blog please let me know. I can use all the help I can get. We are getting about 200 hits a day so this blog is being read.
404-405-7842
Jeff
I appreciate the info on what happened to the folks at NTCC after I left in 1982. I knew Rich H. when he was with his wife #1 in Tillicum before he went to MBI (pre-NTCC) in St. Louis. Pennny was #2, Diana #3. Poor guy. RW has blasted many saying they'll never do anything for God. I wonder what RW's doing other than destroying many precious souls and converting them into ruthless mini-tyrants with pulpits.
NTCC always prey on young 20 year-old mushy minds. He never had much of a following among his peer age group. He got women's allegiance only because they loved it when he bashed their husbands, relentlessly. But its only the "dominant-male" psychological technique, nothing more. Watch animal planet, folks... lion devours lion.. struggle for supremacy... you're so right, Jeff. Its a jungle out there... in there... NTCC.
BitG,
Call Jeff and he'll give you my e-mail. I think you and me were in ntcc at the same time.
AXP
Jeff,
This is off topic, but you got a hit from Tanzania, Africa yesterday.
NTCC women generally, are thoroughly obsessed with loosing weight, growing hair, purses, shoes, and clothes.
Jeff, the funny thing is, NTCC women achieve the opposite of what they endeavor to do!!
Loose Weight? More like they gain weight! Has anyone seen Rev Steven's wife? She is exhibit # 1 of what genetics and / or birth control can do
Some women will never have long hair! It depends on the woman's genetics!
Purses / Shoes / Clothes. NTCC women have not because they ask not. They know their cheapscate husbands cannot afford so they work odd jobs to do JUST THAT: GAIN, GAIN, GAIN!!! My wife wants a 2 GRAND GUCCI purse. I can think of better ways to use 2 GRAND.
But guess what? Marraige is a give and take relationship! She takes care of me and the kids: If I can afford it, I will give my wife WHATEVER she wants!!
Bro Johnson
On the ntccxposed website there is a pic of the Kekels. There is no way you can tell me that Tanya has never cut her hair.
My hair is very thick and wavy and after many years it was past my waist. Yes I did get it caught in the vacuum cleaner one time (lol) and slammed in the car door a bizillion times.
There was pressure from someone (who shall remain nameless) to have my hair look like Tanya's... which was obviously impossible.
I just think they said and did things to constantly keep people from knowing which way is up. I had a class with Tanya, who strangely was the only female teacher. She came to a class one time in a snug outfit with a low neckline.
I know a few of us sisters looked at each other like "huh?" Whatever she was teaching about had something to do with the old testament. She had brought this big huge book to show everyone a pic of this relic and suddenly she started yelling at a sister nearby me.
Apparently she thought she was laughing ( i never heard her) and was going off "Do you think this is something to laugh about... because I don't" and on and on.
It was just strange. The students were already concerned about being singled out in Davis' class or a service and now the sisters had to worry about Tanya's class.
Ntcc will do whatever they can to keep you off balance and as BitG said, the price of your decision can and has been a person's family.
Jeff, Thanks.
200 hits a day? Whoo-hoo! My prayer is that the FIRST TIME VIEWERS # WILL ALWAYS EXCEED THE FIRST TIME VISITORS NUMBER ON ALL THE ntcc REPORTS. GET IT?
BLOG ON MY BROTHER!
BitG
Jeff said about rwdavis--"The guy should be in prison."
BitG says, rwdavis is in prison, Jeff. rdub is in the prison of his sin and iniquity. He could still get right:
Like Jesus told that one fella:
Go and sell that thou hast and give unto the poor; and come and follow Me.
BitG
Okay,
The reason I told CM to get over it is because in every post she constantly recycles the same diatrabe...it gets old reading the same old thing post after post.
We get it, the NTCC women are brainwashed, need a haircut, a new wardrobe, a job, new church, etc, etc.
Point taken..no need to be constantly repeating yourself.
Another thing to stop repeating...Grants education cost. Okay, it's 20,000. Yep, read that the 1st 30 blog posts last year.
Yep, Rev. Kekel went to a bluegrass festival...okay..time to stop the repeated monotony.
Anyone have anything new, refreshing to post about?
Nicole seems to have a few things to post. That's good. She shares things from her perspective. That's what we need. New, refreshing perspectives so there is something new to talk about.
Maybe we all need to pay a visit to a NTCC, come back here and share our stories...lol. :-P
I didn't pick up the word "butch" in NTCC, actually, got it from secular society.
My definition of butch: a woman who has a haircut shorter than a man, slugs down beers like a man, curses like a sailor and wears manly clothing.
They don't want to be the women YHWH created them to be. They want to be men, hence the definition butch comes in. :)
What's in our hearts normally comes out on the outside.
Be grateful to be a woman, be grateful to be a man, let's stop mixing the sexes around and causing gender confusion.
Just want to end with a few verses of Scripture...Genesis 35:17, Genesis 38:28, Exodus 1:16 shows us that indeed women were doctors in the Bible, they were midwives, so, I am not of that 'every woman needs to stay home or else they are in rebellion' type mentality.
Tschuss!
Dawn said...
The reason I told CM to get over it is because in every post she constantly recycles the same diatrabe...it gets old reading the same old thing post after post.
We get it, the NTCC women are brainwashed, need a haircut, a new wardrobe, a job, new church, etc, etc.
Point taken..no need to be constantly repeating yourself.
Another thing to stop repeating...Grants education cost. Okay, it's 20,000. Yep, read that the 1st 30 blog posts last year.
Yep, Rev. Kekel went to a bluegrass festival...okay..time to stop the repeated monotony.
Anyone have anything new, refreshing to post about?
Jeff said...
Dawn: I really do understand what you are saying but I don't believe that you understand why we post repetitive themes. There are new readers here all the time and some of the old ones are on the fence with the NTCC like so many of us were. Knowing this stuff and having it freshly in their memory helps them to make an informed decision about whether or not to stay with the NTCC.
This blog is not here for entertainment or so folks can have something new to read so they can keep their mind entertained. It's here to show folks what the NTCC, RWD, Olson, and Kekel are really all about. Folks need to know that while RWD has been placing restrictions on people for years concerning what they spend their money on, places they go, and things they do, that the Kekels have been doing whatever they want and spending huge amounts of money on exactly the things that the NTCC has preached against for years.
And $20,000 A YEAR is very significant. This "give as unto the lord" stuff is a bunch of psychologically manipulative junk. Yes it is biblically applicable but not the way the NTCC uses it. The NTCC uses in the hope that people will simply turn a blind eye to all their greedy misuse of funds. God doesn't expect folks to be stupid and just throw their hard earned money into someone else's pockets so they can squander it anyhow they please. God doesn't expect us to be idiots and because of this, the $20,000 a year issue (which includes participation in football and basketball) will continue to come up. That was especially important here because it was RWD who wanted to place restrictions on how the rest of the people spent their money while having no concern of how the Kekels have been spending money all along.
Jeff
Thak you,Thank you,Thank you Jeff. you said what I was thinking!
I do see Dawn's comment for me to Get Over it As RUDE!
There is really nothing for me to Get Over! I am on here to EXPOSE ntcc. Expose them for the FALSE teachers they are! For all the Changes going on. Those same changes that Mike K. tries to cover up. Use his best politician speeches. Talk out of the side of his mouth as he is doing damage control!
And as new folks get invited. And are thinking about checking out ntcc. MANY folks get on-line and want to do some investigating before visiting ANY CHURCH! Folks may or may not go back and read through the older threads. They can though read the new ones. And get a good idea what ntcc is all about. The controlling cult that it is.
Thanks Jeff for mentioning this blog is NOT to entertain Dawn. It is to SHARE TRUE stories of our experiences in ntcc.
Folks really had NO LIFE of there own in ntcc. It really was the same old stuff ALL the time. What exactly would you like us to share to entertain you Dawn? I am here to save others from EVER going through a ntcc DOOR! I am also ex-military. Ntcc loves to prey on our military members. Again,I will be here to help prevent young soliders,sailors,Marine,Airmen(women) ever get STUCK in ntcc. Like I did!!!!
I am not one that escapped ntcc. And can go on and make a new life for myself and my family. And forget what ntcc will do to other innocent folks live's!
Not that I am not moving on,and making a awesome FREE life since leaving ntcc. But I am still going to come on here. And toss out that life preserver to others.EXPOSE,EXPOSE,EXPOSE.
I do know that we clash on the so called Holiness standards. And how a woman is to be the keeper of her home. I do not take ANYTHING ntcc taught as Biblcal! Because they take scripture's and twist and twist and twist them. So once your done. You have no idea what is true and what is not the truth!
My impression of you Dawn. You still live many of the so called Standards of ntcc. You think ntcc has compromised and now going down a slipper slope into sin!
Oh and Dawn,you can just move on and not read my posts. Must have struck a nerve if you have such a problem with my post. You are in the minority in that area!!!
As a ex-ntcc Minister's wife. I was kept silent for MANY years! I no longer have to be silent. I do not have to say anything just to please you or anyone else. Keep smiling that fake smile!
CM
Until ntcc acknolwedges that yes they HAVE CHANGED!
YES they spent Gods money on GK education. Wonder where $20,000 a year could have gone?
How about to the pioneer works!
Until ntcc puts up there policies on there web site. The one's they Called SINS for 25 plus years! Acknowledged they LIED to many of us. Put us under bondage. That now they brush it aside and say ,oh that is not a sin. We don't preach that bondage to the Church members anymore!
I wonder why they stopped. They stopped because of Tracy's Blog,Factnet,Jeff's blog,ect. That have EXPOSED ntcc. The public now knows there DIRTY secrets. And as we find out more so called compromise. We will share it!
Why,because we you are invited to ntcc. The FAKE love is shown. Folks see the outside fakeness. And think that this is a great Church. Oh look,I can watch TV,wear Make-up,jewlery. And still live a life filled with HOLINESS! The world needs to know the truth. And guess what Dawn,that truth will set people free.
Since you know folks still in ntcc. You might know,more and more folks are still leaving ntcc. There brainwashed fog is lifting. I will be on here UNTIL ntcc is completely GONE! So those evil "leaders" can not hurt anyone else! Dawn,do you know folks have committed sucide since leaving ntcc! Because of the BRAINWASHING that went on and stayed with them even after leaving.
Many,many folks are in some kind of therapy since leaving ntcc. To deal with becoming a productive citizen again.
Is that enertaining enough for you. Do you want some stand up comedy? Come on. Folks are stuck in a CULT. I know those of us that were in MANY years. We did not become brainwashed Overnight. It took many years of there JARGON and teachings over and over. Until we became there robots! So sharing some of the SAME STUFF ONCE. Is not going to get through to some. It has to be shared over and over and over! Until that fog begins to lift. If I can help save one person stuck in ntcc. Or prevent one person from Ever stepping foot in a ntcc service. Then it is worth it for me!
Some might still have that fog with them. Even after leaving ntcc!!!
CM
Jeff said,
This blog is not here for entertainment or so folks can have something new to read so they can keep their mind entertained. It's here to show folks what the NTCC, RWD, Olson, and Kekel are really all about. Folks need to know that while RWD has been placing restrictions on people for years concerning what they spend their money on, places they go, and things they do, that the Kekels have been doing whatever they want and spending huge amounts of money on exactly the things that the NTCC has preached against for years.--Jeff
BitG says:
Write on Jeff!!
BitG
LADIES, THINKING OF GOING TO ntcc?
Well, you are very smart to check them out first on the web!!
Listen to what ladies who have gone to ntcc are saying:
Nicole said,
"In defense of the women of ntcc, sometimes you talk about things and you do things because you are afraid of being humiliated in front of a congregation or be accused of not being loyal enough.
Women in ntcc are reduced to these things out of FEAR. When I got married I didn't think having long hair and being a stay at home mom was such a big deal. Until rule piles on rule and you lose your whole identity."--Nicole
BitG says,
This Nicole is an intelligent woman who has suffered abuse at the hand so ntcc ministers and staff at their infamous B.S. (That is an acronym for the ntcc Bible Seminary; but it may be appropriate to apply the more general definition of the abbreviation B.S. ;-})
And Nicole is only one of many to testify of such rampant abuse.
Not a Christian atmosphere, regardless of the name hung over the door.
I know. I too was there and suffered the same abuses.
BitG
CM wrote....
Thank you,Thank you,Thank you Jeff. you said what I was thinking!
Jeff wrote...
CM I understand but I want you to know that I have no grievance with Dawn. I don't always agree with Dawn but this is an open forum and she is certainly entitled to her opinion. I expect Dawn to state her views and of course I post them. You are absolutely right about the purpose of this blog and I've made that point clear all along however this would be a totally one sided blog if I only posted or expected people to wright explicitly what I agree with.
I may not always agree with Dawn and that is no mystery but Dawn has posted on this blog for quite some time and she is more than welcome here. If we disagree we disagree and I'm fine with that. CM, I value your presents here and I'm sure you know that but I would be fake if I didn't say I value Dawn's presents here as well whether I agree with her or not. I hope you understand what I'm saying.
She is not in the NTCC as far as I know but I wish more NTCC people would post here. Dawn has been shunned by NTCC folks just like the rest of us. She is just more sympathetic to the NTCC then we are and she should be entitled to be that way. With that being said you are certainly entitled to your views as well and the vast majority of time I agree with them but if I didn't I would still post them.
Jeff
Dawn,
No offense, but i think the reason you have trouble relating to some of these posters is because you left one cult only to enter another.
you refer to God as YHWH; while JESUS is the fulfilment of YHWH- Jesus means: YHWH IS SALVATION; or, YHWH AS SAVIOR
dont fall for the silly hair doctrines and the crazy clothing doctrine. It does not increase spiritualality at all
no offense, please dont be offended; i tend to offend people without trying
sorry in advance
T
T: I totally understand your point. As you have figured out T, I have become liberal concerning many of these issues. I really do not care how people choose to worship or serve God.
I've come to the conclusion that different denominations will worship as they've been taught and they will rarely if ever be influenced to the contrary. That is just the way things are. I don't care how Dawn or anyone else chooses to worship as long as ONE condition exists. The condition in "MY" book is that the way they choose to worship doesn't effect the lives of other people and the NTCC hardly meets the terms of that condition.
The NTCCs practices, teachings and beliefs have had a seriously negative impact on the lives of thousands of people. The NTCC has damaged the lives of thousands of people. The NTCC has destroyed families. The NTCC has financially devastated families. The NTCC has irreversibly ruined the childhoods of thousands of children. The NTCC is a legitimate menace to society and I believe that with all my heart.
I could care less what Dawn believes as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on OTHER people. In that respect I've become liberal but I'm not hurting anyone with the stance that I take. If Dawn believes God has mandated that women wear dresses, never cut their hair, can't wear makeup and can not wear jewelry then that is her prerogative and if she is content to live like that, then that is fine with me and I mean that.
When it becomes a problem is when the leaders of her church start placing mandates on other people to live the same way. It becomes an even greater problem when the leaders of her or any other church make their church members lives miserable until they adhere to the leaders mandates.
That is what I hate about modern day churches and that is what I hate about many religions and I don't see Jesus acting that way. He was short and sweet with his "guidance". He didn't try and make anyone do anything. He certainly didn't try to make peoples life miserable. I don't find that theme in the Gospels. That is an NTCC control monger practice and many other churches are the same way.
Once again I truly feel that Dawn should be free to believe what she wants as long as she doesn't try to force her beliefs on anyone else. The problem I see is that I believe Dawn takes our rightful attacks against the NTCC as an attack against her because she believes in certain things that the NTCC teaches.
Once again I don't see any problem with a women being a stay at home house wife and or mom. No problem what so ever. In fact it is a good thing. However I've studied the Bible enough to know that there are NO scriptures that can rightfully interpreted into meaning that it is unlawful for a woman to work on a job.
That is not a hit against stay at home wives and not a hit against Dawn. It is simply a Biblical fact and there is no one who can prove different with any scripture that exists in the Bible. I've studied the Bible long and thorough enough to know.
Jeff
For the record; I'm not taking Dawns side or anyone else side. I'm simply stating the way I feel as CM, T, Dawn, BitG and everyone else has been allowed to on this blog. I have posted some pretty heated messages but that is only fair especially now that I have to moderate this blog. I want people to know that if they take the time to write something here that I will take the time, and be fair, and post it.
When I've determined that someone has gotten too far out of hand, I have been known to delete posts, "IF" I've believed that the post was contrary and counterproductive to the objective set forth for this blog. That objective is to effectively expose the NTCC and it's evil deeds. Certain people have consistently maintained that objective and CM is one of them.
There is no doubt that CM feels the same way about the NTCC as I do. She is by no means wishy washy in that regard. Like me she sometime becomes too direct with her approach but she certainly can not ever be accused of being wishy washy concerning her stance directed "AGAINST" the NTCC. CM and I are most definitely "AGAINST" what the NTCC stands for and I make no apologies for that.
I don't totally disagree with the NTCCs theological beliefs, but I totally disagree with the NTCCs practice of double standards and continual abuse and misuse of personnel.
Jeff
For the record T, I do not go to church anywhere.
Just allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me His truths after brain dumping all the man made traditions and churchianity that has been instilled in us from the Christian church world.
You should research where Jesus got His name...considering the Hebrew alphabet never had a letter 'J' and still does not.
But anyway, one day, maybe you will get tired of being spoon fed the same recycled Christian jargon and begin researching the truths of the Word of GOD.
But you have to have an open, willing heart, hungry for the truth, other wise, none of it's going to matter.
There is alot of paganism in Christianty, do you know what to look for so you don't disgrace our Holy GOD by mixing paganism in worship?
"dont fall for the silly hair doctrines and the crazy clothing doctrine. It does not increase spiritualality at all".
Brother, it's pure GOD, not any man, that showed me a Christian woman ought to have long covered hair (I Cor. 11) and dress modestly (I Tim. 2:9).
Do you know the word modest apparel in vs. 9 means in Greek
1) a lowering, letting down
2) a garment let down, dress, attire
That, my friend, along with the modesty factor is why I dress in a dress and not shorts or trousers.
I don't need to explain the Word of GOD, you can do that all yourself.
Shalom!
T,
You said what I have been feeling all along. Concerning Dawn.
Ex. the YHWH use for Jesus.
My first reaction was she was trying to still make her faith and walk with God sweeter,I have higher standards then others kind of thing.
Similiar to ntcc. They love to think there on a higher level then most peon Christians.
Thanks T. For sharing that.
CM
I will just say to Dawn. I did Get a life!! Three years ago. When I left the cult called ntcc!
I got my voice back that was silenced by ntcc. No longer do I have to pretend To be the fake smiling,quiet,dutiful wife!!!!
I was expected to like what Tanya likes,dress like Tanya dresses,ect,ect!!
Well not anymore. I got my choices back,my own likes and dislikes.
One thing I don't like is someone who I think is making a rude comment. Telling me to get a life!
Following FAKE non biblical standards is NO LIFE! Trying to put a sweeter savor in Gods nostrils is no life!! Nothing anyone does,wears,what style her hair is,amount of make-up she wears or not wears,on and on. None of that puts anyone on a higher level then other Christians.
We are ALL on the same level. We ALL come to God the same way. All take that knee. RW davis is not more special then ME. Tanya K. is not on a higher level with God then ME! GK is not going to be an apostle because his father is Mike K!!
T,said it correctly. Dawn is going to clash with just about ALL of us on this blog. Because we did denounce some,if not all of what ntcc teaches.
For those that lived the life as a minister or a minister's wife. Is going to be MUCH,MUCH different then a Church member lived. No matter how much control was on your lives. WE had more! Once we have left the CHAINS of BONDAGE ntcc put us in.
Not going to shut us up! By telling me to get a life. I am going to keep telling it like it is. And yes,there may be some repeating going on. For new folks that come on,and they do come on to find out more about ntcc the CULT!
Funny thing Dawn,I can't remember much that you have shared. Has it been enertaining,tickly my funny bone.
All I can say is,YAHOO for Freedom. Freedom of CHOICe to believe what we want to believe. Freedom to listen to my own concious. And let God guide my life and my choices. NO MAN is here to guide my choices. NO PREACHER is up there to help you with your choices. That is Gods job. The preacher can help us,suppoert us,uplifting,Share Gods word. Help folks grow. God and the Holy Spirt will direct our PATHS and our CHOICES.
CM
Also thanks Jeffs for your kind words. Coming on this blog has been for me. Coming out of my shell. That shell that was formed while stuck in ntcc. The Bubble we lived in. Have little or no contact with other men.(besides the hubby) No talking with single brothers. RW bashed us for our OPINIONS! Making us feel like we were stupid. With his Bible college jokes!
I come on here to expose ntcc.But is helping me heal. Become a whole person again!!
CM,
You may go ahead and expose your experience, but there is a way to go about it that doesn't sound hostile, mean, and spiteful.
I understand you want to get your point across but you can do it without going a bit irate.
That's all.
The tongue is a powerful member of our body. It can tear down and destroy a person or lift up and encourage all in one sentence.
Proverbs 25:23
The north wind driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.
Proverbs 25:15
By long forbearing is a prince persuaded , and a soft tongue breaketh the bone.
Proverbs 18:21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Proverbs 15:4
A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.
Proverbs 15:2
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright : but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.
I Peter 3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
I pray you will forgive me if my other posts sounded rude. That wasn't my intention.
It doesn't help that there is extra stress going on in my home at the moment either.
Again, I apologize.
It would help us all if we pray before we post, so we don't end up acting out on our emotions. :)
Bless you CM,
Dawn
As long as soldiers are not told where their money is truly going...
As long as people have to borrow money from their "unsaved" relatives
to put food on the table...
As long as corrupt leaders line their pockets....
Jeff your blog never gets old!
Dawn,
What difference does it make if we use the greek transliteration to refer to our Lord? do you think he takes offense to that?...i highly doubt it.
You said "i don't attend any church" you do know that the Bible states explicitly "Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together as is the manner of some. but exhort one another daily, and so much the more as we see the day approaching"
by not being willing to submit yourself to a pastor you are revealing a prideful spirit. Many people fall into the trap of "i know just as much as any pastor, why should i listen to them?"
the reason lies in the fact that a true shepherd cares for your soul, and has been given spiritual gifts to build us up.
1 cor 14:3 states: "but he that prophecies speaks unto men, edification, exhortation and comfort"
T
Unless someone was a minister, a minister's wife, or one of their kids, they have absolutely NO concept of what it was like to be a slave to ntcc and Davis. When you're in a regular church or servicemen's home that has a decent pastor (not an abusive one), then your experience with ntcc might be ok. But once you decide to give your whole life over to ntcc as a "minister" THEN your life goes downhill from there. You are systematically subjected to every manipulative cult tactic known to man. And it's an endless cycle where no matter what you do or say, you are never good enough, and over time you become numb to the abusive situation.
I understand both Dawn's and CM's point of view. But Dawn you have to understand that your experience with ntcc wasn't that bad, and that's why you don't think they're that bad. CM had the same experience as me and I totally understand her anger and having to vent about the same things. I do that also. Being a minister in ntcc will probably be a permanent scar in every aspect of my life. After enduring years and years of cult tactics and abusive pastors, I have a very low opinion of churches and preachers in general. But, I absolutely DESPISE Davis, Kekel and other ntcc leaders.
Unless you experienced that part of ntcc you have no qualifications to criticize any ex-ntccer.
AXP
yes,and Dawn you were so polite and so nice towards me. When you said Get a life.
Sorry,gloves do come off. And if you start quoting scripture. Scripture that I already have read and study in Bible school. I do tune people out when they do that.
As I write,I allow God to be with me as I write.
I like you,had some extra stress going on right now(in-laws). Didn't affect my writing on this blog.
As for me. I do not see what I write as rude. I am VERY Blunt and VERY truthful. I am not one to hold much back! I do not see where I need to be NICE to folks ALL the time. If the truth is harsh.it is still the truth. Why sugar coat it and try and make people feel better. People like it all nice,comfoy. Not here it is,and that is how it is!
CM
Brother, it's pure GOD, not any man, that showed me a Christian woman ought to have long covered hair (I Cor. 11) and dress modestly (I Tim. 2:9).
Do you know the word modest apparel in vs. 9 means in Greek
1) a lowering, letting down
2) a garment let down, dress, attire
That, my friend, along with the modesty factor is why I dress in a dress and not shorts or trousers.
I don't need to explain the Word of GOD, you can do that all yourself.
Sorry Dawn. But women in JESUS's time did not wear dresses. Men did not wear suits,or wingtips... So the dress standards that you and ntcc have come up with. Men and Women in Jesus's time all wore garments Let down! Is just a man or woman's opinion or how God MAY have led a person to dress. As each person is directed and led. I go to God on how I dress,where I go,what I do with my time,ect. But I do not look like a penticostle while I am doing any of it!
Women in Jesus's time did wear Jewlery and make-up. And they were not Jezzebel's while wearing it.
It is your opinion on wearing a dress is the ONLY modest way to Dress. And the Hair issue,is a whole nother ball of wax!
Pretty much your going to believe your right in your own eyes. So be it! It will make it difficult to come on here. Because the majority of us are not believe the false teachings from ntcc. Especially since Mike K. Himself does not preach against TV viewing,wearing dresses,make-up,kids playing sports. AT ALL to church members!
Ahah,is that why you left ntcc/ You see them compromising Gods word. So you could not stick around. But lets me nice in how we EXPOSE them. Don't be angry when we write on the blog. Starting to make sense now!
CM
Just make sure when you all post again that your posts edify YHWH and not your flesh.
And CM...you really have no idea who I am because you have refused to get to know me.
I didn't leave NTCC because they began compromising, I left because I stopped learning there.
Ask yourself next time you draw blood on this blog if it glorifies or grieves our Saviour.
Shalom. (Peace)
Dawn said...
Just make sure when you all post again that your posts edify YHWH and not your flesh.
Jeff said...
Dawn has come into the super spiritual realm and it is a stark reminder of the hypocrites I was previously associated with in the NTCC. I am not attempting to come across as some holier than thou super spiritual guy. That has never been my intent here. Unfortunately Dawn has done a poor job at that because she hasn't taken a look at herself and figured out why it is that many here have the exact same impression of her high and haughty spirituality or lack thereof.
Dawn: Running around while writing and saying YHWH and Shalom does not make you spiritual at all. In fact it makes you seem kind of "off" and or "out there" if you know what I mean. You will never lead anyone to Christ with that method and you will certainly not provoke people to want to act like you. Your super spirituality is reminiscent of the times that I spent in the NTCC other than the fact that even they didn't run around saying YHWH and Shalom.
You may need to convert to Judaism or something and I really mean that, because maybe then folks might take you serious. Please, enough of this mumbo jumbo because we need to get back on track. This blog is not about Dawn nor do I want it to be even thought Dawn has often acted like people in the NTCC.
This very post is an attempt to put an end to all this garbage because I truly believe all this back an forth with Dawn is starting to take away from this blog. The one thing I hope the readers can get out of this whole exchange is that all this unnecessary fake spirituality is nothing more than nonsense.
I've gotten to a place where I have little tolerance for quote, "Super Christians" who feel they are God's gift to Christianity and the NTCC is full of them. I don't need any of their spiritual advise nor does anyone else need Dawns.
There has recently been some very good information posted here and it is very rapidly being clouded by all this mumbo jumbo concerning Dawn, and I've been guilty of this as well, so I'm trying to put a stop to it. Thank you.
Jeff
Nicole, your wrote another good post (January 15, 2010 12:18 AM) jam-packed with facts about ntcc and how it operates and affects people. Thanks for sharing! It is helpful to know others went through and thought the same things. =D
BitG
BitG
Not sure who you are or if we knew each other, but it's been helpful seeing your posts too.
I AM: BitG, Stella, anonymous and BK
Tonya, you really should just take your son by the hand and leave ntcc. I know you think they are leaving him a legacy. But it's a legacy of greed and compromise, of coveteousness and lies. What will you do in the end thereof?
I'd rather lead my son by the hand and work at a Burger King like Hagar left with a bottle of water and a loaf of bread, a broken heart, and a cry to a God Who would hear her and become more real to her than she ever knew.
But that's me.
You may choose to remain forever "Daddy's Little Girl."
But when you get what you want, will you want what you got?
I want to apologize to anyone I ever invited to ntcc or encouraged to stay in ntcc.
To my friends still ntcc, I encourage you to really seek God and be open to the thought of leaving ntcc.
More could be said; but for now this will be all.
I just took the time to read this entire thread, and i think I'm going to come to Dawn's defense here. The whole purpose of this blog is to expose ntcc's cultish ways, not criticize someone for their religious views. I don't have a problem with someone like Dawn who lives a super-holiness type of life, as long as they aren't abusing people and doing wrong. I actually respect people who live their life like they proclaim, even if I don't believe in it. I don't care if someone wears a burka, or shaves their head bald-- as long as they are being a good citizen and not hurting people.
The problem with ntcc is they use cult tactics and manipulation to guilt-trip people into living "holiness" and giving their money to the church-- instead of just letting people come to that conclusion on their own.
Dawn, even though your defense of ntcc annoys me-- I think that you have every right to be on this blog and to live your Christian life as you see fit to God. (Just trying to put things in perspective).
AXP
WHY DO YOU POST/READ HERE-TO TALK ABOUT IT HERE OR WITH OTHERS?
Someone (CM?) asked why Dawn was on this blog and I considered that.
Is Dawn lonely?
Is she seeking friendship or fellowship?
Do we have a relationship with Jesus based on His work and forgiveness?
Or do we have a religion of rules and rituals?
Do we post here for the sake of having something juicy to talk about?
Or are we discussing our life experiences with the hope of opening the hearts and eyes of others to what ntcc is like
and how Jesus is so NOT ntcc-ish?
Would Jesus act the way ntcc preachers do?
Would He be pleased with my life?
Is He pleased with my conduct here and everywhere?
What does it mean to be like Him?
Angela
AXP wrote...
Dawn, even though your defense of ntcc annoys me-- I think that you have every right to be on this blog and to live your Christian life as you see fit to God. (Just trying to put things in perspective).
Jeff wrote...
As you look through my posts you will find that I originally wrote almost the same thing AXP. I certainly believe that Dawn has every right to post on this blog and additionally she has been quite welcome.
The problem that started occurring was that Dawn was finding herself at odds with various people on the blog and certainly not just one. The exchanges between Dawn and others were beginning to take front seat ahead of some really good post written by BitG (Angela), Nicole, Former Lay Pastor and others. In my opinion these exchanges were beginning to take away from the designated purpose of this blog which is ultimately to write stories about life while in the NTCC.
There were some more very heated posts that I actually elected not to publish because it would have only resulted in even more heated exchanges. There is a time for those type exchanges but there is a time for them to stop or they will totally take away the effectiveness of this blog while causing certain readers to leave the blog altogether.
I don't want people to legitimately be able to accuse us of only bickering back and forth. Once again there is a time for such exchanges but there is a time for them to stop, and I determined that such a time had come.
Jeff
Dawn's true story is that she left ntcc because she stopped learning. Her words. She still lives under what many of us consider the cults controlling false doctrine. Whatever lifestyle she choose to live, so be it. I am one that believes you should be able to live how you want to live. But don't think your on any higher level then ANYONE else!
I think enough has been said about Dawn by many certainly to include me.
No need to bring up Dawn anymore because I don't intend to publish it. Thank you,
Jeff
Jeff, you don't need to post this, but I wanted to ask you if you could write a post about true submission. This came up on cafemoms that I'm a part of, and I think it's important to point out the difference between NTCC's version of blind and ignorantly following, and true submission. To me, the person being submissive is in control of her life, because she chooses to submit. SHE chooses who to submit to. A friend of mine has a daughter that enjoys having someone else make the decisions for her. But God help anyone who tries to do this without her permission. She gives permission to the controller, the controller does not take it away. True submission is freeing and, I find anyway, very fulfilling. I did not find NTCC's version in any way enjoyable, healthy, or freeing.
Thanks.
Jennifer: I know you said I didn't need to post your message however I thought it be good to post it because I think it is fine if you put together a post on submission.
Not only that but you made some valid points in the message you wrote which I thought was a good message. I'm glad to see you here and you are most definitely welcome. I see no problem with submission. I see a problem with the NTCC teaching that women were created for the explicit purpose of cooking, cleaning, having babies, (if RWD didn't disapprove) and having sex.
A woman can be submissive and still have a brain which she exercises, as well as having a job if she desires. I'm looking forward to your post.
Once again, good to see you here,
Jeff
There is healthy submission and unhealthy submission.
The magority of minister's wives in ntcc. Sit at home,iron cloths,cut coupons,now go to exercise classes,cook,cook and cook. BUT would this be there CHOICE? If there was a choice in how they could live and still stay in ntcc. What would they change?
I am now out of ntcc. I still cook,and clean. Not superwoman cleaning like I did in ntcc(out of fear of pop inspections). I also have all kinds of friends,social avenue's(groups) I am involved in. And soon,I will get back to working part-time. Without putting my kids in daycare. For me,no daycare for us!
BUT,hubby now washes cloths now and then,gets in and helps out,picks up groceries. None of this is feminizing him!
Ntcc submission is keeping women in there place. Stay silent,smile,be happy. Don't talk,share to many opinions,have a social life outside of ntcc.
Sorry that is not submission. Ntcc likes slave's,not wive's.
CM
Anyone remember the conference that Rev. Davis was bragging on Dennis' saying. "A woman should be like a flower. She should look nice and smell nice." She was suppose to just be quiet and not say anything.
Jeff,
I really think this whole story of Diana (Marshall) Hampton should be its own thread.
Diana, Mike, Rich, Penny and Jerry Duran combined probably had 80-90 or so years worth of slave labor invested in ntcc.
Think about it. Eighty to ninety years (combined) of peoples' lives invested in ntcc. (And I'm not including their kids lives either in that total).
And when they get in trouble, ntcc dumps them; and kicks them when they are down.
Not only are Rich and Diana and their four kids homeless, living out of someone else's garage; but davis knows about it and does nothing to help?
Rich and Diana have both lost their previous spouses to scandals that in my opinion were caused by ntcc's harsh treatment of their workers; then the situation was made worse, not better, when their so-called pastor got involved.
My opinion is davis deliberately does things to destroy people he considers competition for mike and tanya kekel inheriting the davis dynasty.
Not only were Rich and Diana homeless while trying to keep ntcc's church in Mexico, Missouri going; they were abandoned and mocked by those who were supposed to shepherd them.
And Mexico, MO is only fifteen miles from ntcc's campground where there are literally hudreds of empty beds and rooms, not counting davis own spacious ski-lodge that has six bedrooms with queen size beds, two and a half baths in the common areas, and a separate Master Suite with parlour, bedroom, and bathroom. There is also a fireplace and very large kitchen.
I'm sure Diana, who used to run her own bakery, would have loved to comfort her new family by baking for them. And they could have relaxed inside a clean building, not in a filthy garage like oily rags.
What will Jesus say to davis about his stewardship of all the things davis has appropriated over all the years???
How can davis and his so lightly throw away so many precious souls?
Why do people continue to stay in an organization that does this same thing over and over and over?
Do you really believe you will get better treatment? Do you think you have given more than the Marshalls and Hamptons and Durans and others that ntcc has trampled on during their hour of need?
Being a better prisoner of war is not going to stop those beat-downs you get.
Stop allowing this satanic cult to drain all your life from you and your families.
Your Friend Angela
Angela said...
I really think this whole story of Diana (Marshall) Hampton should be its own thread.
Jeff said...
Give me a call and let me know how you want the thread put together. I didn't know the Marshall's so I'm able to expound upon what you are feeling. I think it is a great idea. Let me know.
Jeff
"Not only were Rich and Diana homeless while trying to keep ntcc's church in Mexico, Missouri going; they were abandoned and mocked by those who were supposed to shepherd them."
I think it was payback. Rich Hampton refused the lowball offer the org gave him on his mobile home there at the corner of OK/210th. Eli Gesang was livid and openly condemned him for it, claiming that that property by all rights should go to the school, and that Rich was being greedy and would never get what he was asking. But it sold pretty quick. Then RW was preaching about someone selling a place and not paying tithe on it. So if any misfortune befell them, I'm sure these 'leaders' just chalked it up to God and made sure not to interfere with the judgment being dished out. You know how they are.
Let's get some help on the Diana (Marshall) Hampton story from some of the old-timers who know for sure when Mike Marshall and Diana came to ntcc. And what year did Rich Hampton and Penny come to ntcc? And how long did Jerry Duran work in the Bible School office? Let's get it right.
I'm trying to remember what year the Hampton's first took over the Mexico, Mo. church.
It was definitely in the nineties.
As far as kids:
Diana had two sons with her in the Philippines who were of an age to strike out on their own when Mike was run off by davis. Carlos joined the Marines. Kerry went to the B.S. for a while but decided it wasn't for him and left after talking to davis about it.
He later went to a service when ntcc opened it's new chapel at the B.S. and davis didn't even recognize him. How's that for a kick in the pants? Grow up cutting your teeth on an ntcc pew, move to different works, live in servicemen's homes as a kid, go to the Philippines, and davis doesn't even recognize you? Guess it was all the long hours of tearful prayers that clouded davis's vision....
Hampton's kids who got to be so well cared for by their loving brothers and sisters in the ntcc leadership were: David, Christine, Tony, and Phillip (who should all be adults now.)
I left out on the other posts that Jerry had a wife who married brother Cya (sp? pronounced sigh-ah). And to their credit, from what I could see in church, the Ashmore's took her in as another daughter.
But from what I read on Tracy's blogs the grandkids from the Penny-Jerry union got disfellowshipped. Sad.
I also think Laurie (sp?) DiFrancesco was, quite naturally, devestated by her brother's actions, judgint from her conduct during the conference at the time this happened.
But I still believe it would not have happened if davis wasn't so keen on getting more free labor from the brothers staying after hours to work extra time for free.
And the B.S. did start sending everyone home at quitting time after what happened. But it was sort of a, Well, now the horse is out, better shut the barn door so the horse don't get out policy (too little too late).
And the B.S. staff love to shout,
NO WOMEN IN THE WAR ROOM--e.g. no women in the B.S. office. But my observation is that was more blowing smoke.
If a woman had, and I'll put this as crudely as possible to drive home the point, If a woman had a
NICE RACK,
she could be in the office all she wanted and would get married off to one of the office workers:
Genevieve (Gradhouse) married office worker Chris Cowan
Tanya (Wright, yep, one of Tom's three daughters) married office worker George Keys
Crystal (Apollinero) married office worker Mark Ripke
You get the idea. Do I need to add tdk and mck?
So more B.S. rules made only to be broken by the 'in' crowd....
And anyone who's got some dates that would like to contribute to this thread can post anonymously and just type a code name at the bottom of your comment if you want to remain anonymous.
Angela
ntcc THE MORE YOU KNOW, THE WORSE IT GETS!
Vic, that is sick! But I'm thinking you are right...
This one tragic story shows how truly twisted and wicked ntcc is.
In all the time I spent with the Hampton's not once did I sense anything greedy about Rich! Quite the opposite. He was generous and hospitable; as is Diana.
The more I learn about elliot gesang, the more disappointed I become. I thought his whole goal was to be "a brother"--his words.
But I guess all his years working for the man really have hardened what was once good and kind.
I think it will be like that for phil kinson too. We've spent some time in small group fellowship on different occassions.
One time phil and his wife debbie (johnson) visited the Ft. Bragg Servicemens' Home when the taylors and Eric (Barden) and I were there. It was so fun--midnight madness!
I could tell phil loved souls by the way he talked to this one girl after service, with me there as the 'beard'.
But ntcc has a way of corrupting.
I know his brother Chris (wife Ruth) left ntcc. I still remember Chris preaching at conference,
"From This Wreck, I Will Arise."--
He used the mythological Phoenix bird that rises from the ashes as an illustration. Who knows, maybe he did arise from the wreckage of being in ntcc!
See, I don't forget the people. They are what is important:
SOULS
And I think others need to know exactly how ntcc is; and how they will be treated BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.
Angela
ROUGH COP-SOFT COP- CHEAT A BROTHER TO SAVE A BUCK OR TWO:
Vic observed:
I think it was payback. Rich Hampton refused the lowball offer the org gave him on his mobile home there at the corner of OK/210th. Eli Gesang was livid and openly condemned him for it, claiming that that property by all rights should go to the school, and that Rich was being greedy and would never get what he was asking. But it sold pretty quick.--Vic
Ohhhh... soooo ntcc-ish:
I can just imagine davis and his cronies making their play:---->
Let's offer Hampton a pittance for what his property is worth and see if he goes for it. If not, I'll send in eli (he's such a patsy) to condemn him for it (rough cop); then I'll come back (soft cop) with a slightly higher offer (that is still way below market value), and see if Hampton goes for that; since I know he's so desperate, and such a chump, and will never build a work for gawd.<----
Well, praise God, Sir. You sound just like the Holy Ghost. NOT!!!!
"...claiming that that property by all rights should go to the school..." ? ? ?
Isaiah 5v8: Woe unto them that join house to house, 'that' lay field to field, till 'there be' no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!--woe unto you, ntcc!
Angela
DO MY DIRTY WORK; GOD WILL BLESH-YA FOR IT eli...
My question is: elliot, when are you gonna stop nailing Jesus to a tree in an attempt to please the man rw davis? You're selling out Christ every time you sell out a brother in order to please rdub.
Are you so degraded that you don't understand that? You say you want to be a brother.
Well, be one.
Grow up....
Tell rw you're not for hire to do his dirty work and tell his lies any more.
Let him shoot his own German Shepherds. Didn't you just die inside as a man when you hauled Wendy and Lion out there to kill them?
And how about when you did this to Hampton, knowing what he was going through?
And how is Kim, your other wife? And how is Mike your son you never raised?
Does that hurt? I hope you care enough that it hurts.
Do you really think God was pleased with that?
Is ntcc your god?
Do you have egg on your face or on your feet? And why????
Are you ashamed; or are you a good father like the penguins who sit for months with their baby's egg on their feet until the dad loses one third of his body weight?
Am I not wounding you as a friend? And aren't rdub's kisses deceitful?
You can't have things both ways. You can't preach holiness and lie for rdub.
Sandy, I wish you could just grab him by the hand and lead him out of there.... But I fear for both of you that he will, like Lot's wife, keep looking back.
Remember, Sandy, how we saw each other below the altar in prayer???
Time is fleeing. Perhaps you should too... After, all David did (A Treasury of David). Psa. 94v19...
Your Friend with a broken heart, Angela
CULTS-A QUICK LOOK COULD SAVE YOU YEARS OF HEARTACHE IN THE ntcc:
Nicole, in her very good post of Jan. 14 said:
"I think it would help a lot of people to find somewhere online the definition and signs of a cult."
Good point. And someone has thoughtfully researched that very thing and brought the links here-- Casey Hayes--thanks, bro, for all you did there. You've really helped me.
FOR NEW READERS
The home page of this blog has two search windows. If you type in Casey Hayes and search, the blog will bring up articles written by Casey in which he shares what he learned about cults in general and ntcc in particular.
There are several excellent links that will help you in avoiding any cult.
THANKS FOR READING.
May God bless you as you seek Him!
Angela
"And to their credit, from what I could see in church, the Ashmore's took her in as another daughter."
As you know, appearances can be quite deceiving, especially in an NTCC venue. Jesus and Linda Rodriguez, the other grandparents of Jerry's daughter, were instructed by the Ashmores to keep quiet about that relationship, so no one would ask any awkward questions, and the Ashmores' apparently intentional emotional distance from their own flesh and blood became an issue. I'll leave it at that, Christine can share her observations if she wishes.
These "men of God" love spewing everyone else's business over the pulpit, but apply every technique of suppression if any whiff of scandal should endanger their own hyperinflated reputations.
"Let's get some help on the Diana (Marshall) Hampton story from some of the old-timers who know for sure when Mike Marshall and Diana came to ntcc."
Marshall was more of an old-timer than me; he lived in the dorm next to mine when I got to St. Louis in June of 1980. He went out into a work a year or so later. He had been a coworker of Eli Gesang, who had evangelized him. Rich and Penny Hampton were already in the ministry when I got there; they were some of the real old-timers. Diana (I think it was Richardson) was going to the Tillicum church when I was in the Army at Ft. Lewis, and got to the BS in St. Louis a few months after I did. As far as the Mexico church, it seems like it was around '93 or so when Hampton sold his place and moved. I was teaching at the BS at the time.
"The more I learn about elliot gesang, the more disappointed I become. I thought his whole goal was to be "a brother"--his words.
But I guess all his years working for the man really have hardened what was once good and kind.
I think it will be like that for phil kinson too. We've spent some time in small group fellowship on different occassions."
Those two guys were some of my best friends, and they both, in typical NTCC fashion, dropped me like a hot rock when I left. Eli emailed me once (years before I had ever breathed a negative word about NTCC online) that he wouldn't have anything do do with one who had "left the Work of God" (capitalization preserved from the original). I visited Phil once, and was advised afterward that I was no longer welcome in his home, even though the visit seemed pleasant enough. But his parents were there, whom I had met before, and I guess he just didn't want to make an ugly scene. Can't be real in front of those who wouldn't understand, you know.
Of all people, I had expected these to be some of the most compassionate, so it was shocking to be so readily cast aside. They always appeared tenderhearted. But, as you observe, years of ambitious servitude take their toll, and it is not possible to ascend the hierarchy unchanged. One must conform or perish, and part of that conformity is to blind and ruthless loyalty.
RW and his fellow soul-stealing vampires ultimately turn people into remote control zombies. I would like to hope that somewhere deep down inside Eli and Phil, there is an imprisoned remnant of their original essence. Maybe it'll escape and reassert itself someday. I'd like to have my old friends back, please.
"Who knows, maybe he did arise from the wreckage of being in ntcc!"
I know--he's doing great, and may be coming up for another visit this summer. We were best friends in the org; RW ran him off a year before it was my turn. We usually get together every year or two (but I think it's been three this time). Go to groups.yahoo.com/group/ntcc_support and sign up. Some of us keep in touch over there, including him.
"And how is Kim, your other wife?"
It was Mary.
"I think it would help a lot of people to find somewhere online the definition and signs of a cult."
Here is some insight on the characteristics of a cult leader. Remind you of anyone in particular?:
1. Glibness/Superficial Charm
Glibness is a hallmark of psychopaths. They are able to use language effortlessly to beguile, confuse, and convince. They are captivating storytellers. They exude self-confidence and are able to spin a web that intrigues others and pulls them into the psychopath's life. Most of all, they are persuasive. Frequently they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or disarm them emotionally.
2. Manipulative and Conning
Cult leaders do not recognize the individuality or rights of others, which makes all self-serving behaviors permissible. The hallmark of the psychopath is the _psychopathic maneuver_, which is essentially interpersonal manipulation "based on charm. The manipulator appears to be helpful, charming, even ingratiating or seductive, but is covertly hostile, domineering... [The victim] is perceived as an aggressor, competitor, or merely an instrument to be used ... The manipulation inevitably becomes the end-all and is no longer qualified by the reality principle." In other words, there are no checks on the psychopath's behavior -- anything goes.
The psychopath divides the world into suckers, sinner, and himself. He discharges powerful feelings of terror and rage by dominating and humiliating his victims. He is particularly successful when, through an overlay of charm, he makes an ally of his victim -- a process sometimes described as emotional vampirism or emotional terrorism.
3. Grandiose Sense of Self
The cult leader enjoys tremendous feelings of entitlement. He believes everything is owed to him as a right. Preoccupied with his own fantasies, he must always be the center of attention. He presents himself as the "Ultimate One": enlightened, a vehicle of god, a genius, the leader of humankind, and sometimes the most humble of the humble. He has an insatiable need for adulation and attendance. His grandiosity may also be a defense against inner emptiness, depression, and a sense of insignificance. Paranoia often accompanies the grandiosity, reinforcing the isolation of the group and the need for protection against a perceived hostile environment. In this way, he creates an us-versus-them mentality.
4. Pathological Lying
Psychopaths lie coolly and easily, even when it is obvious they are being untruthful. It is almost impossible for them to be consistently truthful about either a major or minor issue. They lie for no apparent reason, even when it would be easier and safer to tell the truth. This is sometimes called "crazy lying". Confronting their lies may provoke an unpredictably intense rage or simply a Buddha-like smile.
Another form of lying common among cult leaders is known as _pseudopodia fantastica_, an extension of pathological lying. Leaders tend to create a complex belief system, often about their own powers and abilities, in which they themselves sometimes get caught up. "It is often difficult to determine whether the lies are an actual delusional distortion of reality or are expressed with the conscious or unconscious intent to deceive."
These manipulators are rarely original thinkers. Plagiarists and thieves, they seldom credit the true originators of ideas, often co-opting authorship. They are extremely convincing, forceful in the expression of their views, and talented at passing lie detector tests. For them, objective truth does not exist. The only "truth" is whatever will best achieve the outcome that meets their needs.
5. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
At the core of the psychopath is a deep-seated rage which is split off and repressed. Some researchers theorize that this is caused by feeling abandoned in infancy or early childhood. Whatever the emotional or psychological source, psychopaths see those around them as objects, targets, or opportunities, not people. They do not have friends, they have victims and accomplices -- and the latter frequently end as victims. For psychopaths the ends always justify the means. Thus there is no place for feelings of remorse, shame, or guilt. Cult leaders feel justified in all their actions since they consider themselves the ultimate moral arbiter. Nothing gets in their way.
6. Shallow Emotions
While they may display outbursts of emotion, more often than not they are putting on a calculated response to obtain a certain result. They rarely reveal a range of emotions, and what is seen is superficial at best, pretended at worst. Positive feelings of warmth, joy, love, and compassion are more feigned than experienced. They are unmoved by things that would upset the normal person, while outraged by insignificant matters. They are bystanders to the emotional life of others, perhaps envious and scornful of feelings they cannot have or understand. In the end, psychopaths are cold, with shallow emotions, living in a dark world of their own.
Hiding behind the "mask of sanity," the cult leader exposes feelings only insofar as they serve an ulterior motive. He can witness or order acts of utter brutality without experiencing a shred of emotion. He casts himself in a role of total control, which he plays to the hilt. What is most promised in cults -- peace, joy, enlightenment, and security -- are goals that are forever out of reach of the leader, and thus also the followers. Since the leader is not genuine, neither are his promises.
7. Incapacity for Love
As the "living embodiment of God's love," the leader is tragically flawed in being unable to either give or receive love. Love substitutes are given instead. The leader's tremendous need to be loved is accompanied by an equally strong disbelief in the love offered him by his followers; hence, the often unspeakably cruel and harsh testing of his devotees. Unconditional surrender is an absolute requirement.
8. Need for Stimulation
Thrill-seeking behaviors, often skirting the letter or spirit of the law, are common among psychopaths. Such behavior is sometimes justified as preparation for martyrdom: "I know I don't have long to live; therefore my time on this earth must be lived to the fullest." "Surely even I am entitled to have fun or sin a little." This type of behavior becomes more frequent as the leader deteriorates emotionally and psychologically -- a common occurrence.
Cult leaders live on the edge, constantly testing the beliefs of their followers, often with increasingly bizarre behaviors, punishments, and rules. Other mechanisms of stimulation come in the form of unexpected, seemingly spontaneous outbursts, which usually take the form of verbal abuse and sometimes physical punishment. The psychopath has a cool indifference to things around him, yet his icy coldness can quickly turn into rage, vented on those around him.
9. Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Psychopaths readily take advantage of others, expressing utter contempt for anyone else's feelings. Someone in distress is not important to them. Although intelligent, perceptive, and quite good at sizing people up, they make no real connections with others. They use their "people skills" to exploit, abuse, and wield power. Psychopaths are unable to empathize with the pain of their victims.
10. Poor Behavioral Controls / Impulsive Nature
Like small children, many psychopaths have difficulty regulating their emotions. Adults who have temper tantrums are frightening to be around. Rage and abuse, alternating with token expressions of love and approval, produce an addictive cycle for both abuser and abused, as well as create a sense of hopelessness in the later.
The cult leader acts out with some regularity -- often privately, sometimes publicly -- usually to the embarrassment and dismay of his followers and other observers. He may act out sexually, aggressively, or criminally, frequently with rage. Generally this aberrant behavior is a well-kept secret, known only to a few disciples. The others see only perfection.
These tendencies are related to the psychopath's need for stimulation and inability to tolerate frustration, anxiety, and depression. Often a leader's inconsistent behavior needs to be rationalized by either the leader or follower in order to maintain internal consistency. It is often regarded as divinely inspired and further separates the empowered from the powerless.
11. Early Behavior Problems / Juvenile Delinquency
Psychopaths frequently have a history of behavioral and academic difficulties. They often "get by" academically, conning other students and teachers. Encounters with juvenile authorities are frequent. Equally prevalent are difficulties in peer relationships and developing and keeping friends, marked control problems, and other aberrant behaviors such as stealing, fire setting, and cruelty to others.
12. Irresponsibility / Unreliability
Not concerned about the consequences of their behavior, psychopaths leave behind them the wreckage of others' lives and dreams. They may be totally oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they inflict on others, something which they regard as neither their problem nor their responsibility.
Psychopaths rarely accept blame for their failures or mistakes. Scapegoating is common, blaming followers, those outside the group, a member's family, the government, Satan -- anyone and everyone but the leader. The blaming may follow a ritualized procedure such as a trial, "hot seat" denunciation, or public confession. Blame is a powerful rein forcer of passivity and obedience, producing guilt, shame, terror, and conformity in the followers.
13. Promiscuous Sexual Behavior / Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, polygamy, rape, and sexual acting out of all sorts are frequently practiced by cult leaders. Conversely, there is often stringent sexual control of the followers through such tactics as enforced celibacy, arranged marriages, forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from their parents, forced abortions or mandated births. For psychopaths, sex is primarily a control and power issue.
Marital fidelity is rare in the psychopath's life. There are usually countless reports of extramarital affairs and sexual predation upon adult and child members of both sexes. The sexual behavior of the leader may be kept hidden from all but the inner circle or may be part of accepted group sexual practices. In any case, due to the power imbalance between leader and followers, sexual contact is never truly consensual and is likely to have damaging consequences for the follower.
14. Lack of Realistic Life Plan / Parasitic Lifestyle
The psychopath tends to move around a lot, making countless efforts at "starting over" while seeking out fertile new ground to exploit. One day may appear as a rock musician, the next as a messiah; one day a used car salesman, the next the founder of a mass self-transformation program; one day a college professor, the next the new "Lenin" bringing revolution to America.
The flip side of this erratic life planning is the all-encompassing promise for the future that the cult leader makes to his followers. Many groups claim as their goal world domination or salvation at the Apocalypse. The leader is the first to proclaim the utopian nature of the group, which is usually simply another justification for irrational behavior and stringent controls.
The leader's sense of entitlement is often demonstrated by the contrast between his luxurious lifestyle and the impoverishment of his followers. Most cult leaders are supported by gifts and donations from their followers, who may be pressured to turn over much of their income and worldly possessions to the group. Slavery, enforced prostitution, and a variety of illegal acts for the benefit of the leader are common in a cult milieu.
Psychopaths also tend to be preoccupied with their own health while remaining totally indifferent to the suffering of others. They may complain of being "burned out" due to the burden of "caring for" their followers, sometimes stating they do not have long to live, instilling fear and guilt in their devotees and encouraging further servitude. They are highly sensitive to their own pain and tend to be hypochondriacs, which often conflicts with their public image of superhuman self-control and healing abilities. According to them, the illnesses they _don't_ get are due to their powers, while the ones they _do_ get are caused by their "compassion" in taking on their disciples' karma or solving the group's problems. This of course is another guru trick.
15. Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Cult leaders change their image and that of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and litigation, to increase their income, and to recruit a range of members. Cult leaders have an innate ability to attract followers who have the skills and connections that the leaders lack. The longevity of the group is dependent on the willingness of the leadership to adapt as needed and preserve the group. Frequently, when illegal or immoral activities are exposed to the public, the cult leader will relocate, sometimes taking followers with him. He will keep a low profile, only to resurface later with a new name, a new front group, and perhaps a new twist on the scam.
--
Rod Keller / rkeller@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
Black Hat #1 / Expert of the Toilet / CWPD Mouthpiece
The Lerma Apologist / Merchant of Chaos / Vision of Destruction
Killer Rod / OSA Patsy / Quasi-Scieno / Mental Bully
I wonder if Angela will post a thread on how she made life so miserable for Eric by nagging, witholding sex, and spending all the money to the point he left her in the middle of the night, never to be seen again?
His heart attack may have been caused by her continually making his life miserable...
She seems so intent on talking about Diana, Rich, etc...
Its only right if she starts with her own sordid story.....
MORE ABUSE OF POSITION AND PULPIT--
Vic correctly noted about ntcc:
These "men of God" love spewing everyone else's business over the pulpit, but apply every technique of suppression if any whiff of scandal should endanger their own hyperinflated reputations.
January 23, 2010 8:41 AM--Vic
Angela says,
BREAKING CONFIDENCE THE ntcc WAY
When a person tells a preacher something, that information is considered to be said "in confidence" and is protected by law as private information that is not to be made public.
But ntcc 'preachers' break confidences all the time by telling peoples' private stories from the pulpit and to their own family members and on the innernet...
Did you know it is illegal for a preacher to break confidence? It is illegal for a preacher to take informatiion told to him in private and share it with others.
Yet ntcc 'preachers' like davis and kekel and others do it all the time.
ntcc will break any law as long as they think they won't get caught or have to pay money for it.
And they do not care who is hurt in the process.
SUPPRESSION OF INFORMATION
Suppression of information is such a huge control tactic that not only do cults use it but so do dictatorships.
But notice what Vic said, it is only information that ntcc finds embarassing for its own cherished few (nepotist) families that enjoy having their stories hidden.
Anyone else is
FAIR GAME
TO BE TOYED WITH OR EXPLOITED OR DESTROYED
according to the whims of davis and kekel and others who break the law and disclose private matters.
Anyone attending ntcc can expect their personal busines to be pulpit ammunition if they are unfortunate enough to disclose anything to these so-called 'men-of-god' -- small 'g' in that god; for I believe they are more closely following satan than Jesus.
Angela
Vic,
Just finished reading the fifteen points describing cult leaders and psychopaths.
WOW! It really reminds me of davis and kekel.
That should be its own thread.
Angela
Anonymous Anonymous said...
"I wonder if Angela will post a thread on how she made life so miserable for Eric by nagging..."
She may or may not have done this only God and her know.
How does that compare with the relationship a church corporation has with its members/ministers?
Ntcc see's many that leave there Org. as a bunch of sinners that just want the world,want money,ectt. Sadly they are mistaken in there views.
But what got me to thinking tonight. A man was walking by a man on the road. He picked him up and carried him to a Inn,paid for his stay.
Say I was broke down beside the road. Only one to come by was a ntcc minister or his wife.
They knew it was me. Would they stop and help me. Be a a good Samaritan. Or would they speed on by?
Who knows. But we do know that ntcc speed on by the Marshall's!!! Knew they needed help. NO MATTER of the past they had. Your Supposed to help someone in need.
CM
"I wonder if Angela will post a thread on how she made life so miserable for Eric..."
Hah! Here they come, the anonymous NTCC drive-by gossipers! You must have struck a nerve, Angela. Maybe it's Eli, kicking at the pricks. Or my old friend Whirlwind, taking some more potshots from cover of darkness.
I may not know all the circumastances, but I knew Eric, and believe that abuses by the leadership of NTCC had far more to do with his nocturnal departure than Angela.
Mr./Ms. Anonymous: Get a life. And a name. And some credibility. And a backbone.
Yes, Angela struck a nerve. This is want comes to my mind. Number one, whoever wrote the message to Angela was someone with a decent vocabulary i.e. the use of the word "sordid". Not a word typically used by most people. A few people come to mind, Kekel not being the least of which. It is also someone who thinks they knew of Angela's personal affairs which makes me fairly certain it would be a pastor.
What gets me is that many of these NTCC pastors make a practice of obtaining information or attempting to obtain information about folks personal affairs. They do this only to blab it across the pulpit or use it as a means to discredit someone or smear their name the minute that individual leaves or has something bad to say about the NTCC.
I've written something before that I want to reiterate. Don't tell your NTCC pastor a single solitary thing about your personal life. If you have marriage or other problems, go to a "real" professional outside the NTCC because you won't have to worry about the "real" professional blabbing it around the planet like NTCC ministers are notorious for doing.
Don't let an NTCC pastor in your house for any reason because you will regret it later if you do. He will come into your house like a health inspector looking for something wrong and then blast you across the pulpit later. You think I'm kidding? Not at all. Don't tell any NTCC pastor where you go, what you do, who babysits your kids or anything else about your life. The less he knows about you the better.
Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. Generally they won't let you step foot into their house because they don't want you to know anything about them so why in the word should you let them in your house. These NTCC guys are real creeps who will use everything they find about you against you. Mayers did it, Oberhauser did it and I've seen it done before. These guys are creeps who have no business knowing anything about your business. I guarantee that if you keep your business private while in the NTCC you will be a whole lot happier. They will likely blast you anyway because you are keeping them out of your life, but I would rather have that then them knowing all my business.
Jeff
Something important here. I'm sure people are asking what business we have with critiquing NTCCers for blabbing personal information when we do it daily on this blog? That's a valid question in my book and I have an answer and the answer is simple.
Did you ever see the movie First Blood with Sylvester Stallone? In the movie old Rambo was minding his own business when that sorry Sheriff started making his life miserable and look what happened next, and that is exactly like the NTCC.
Many of us were in the military, moving forward with our career and minding our own business. Then comes along a NTCCer and the next thing you know an NTCC pastor trained in RWDs school of manipulation had us brainwashed. It can happen. Well now we are like a bunch of Rambo's trying to disrupt the evil NTCC tyrants and I truly believe and know that's exactly what they are.
There is a difference between exposing a thoroughly corrupt, crooked and destructive organization and just putting out someone's personal business because you have the power to do so for selfish reasons.
Jeff
"Something important here. I'm sure people are asking what business we have with critiquing NTCCers for blabbing personal information when we do it daily on this blog?"
A vital factor is that none of this information was obtained by someone posing as a "man of God" while they collected dirt during "counseling" sessions. I still wonder if RW has a giant fileroom filled with "This is I" papers (the ones he told us would be burned in his fireplace once he was done grading them).
If I wrote something for you to post, how would I go about getting it to you outside the comment thread? I'm sure you posted your e-mail somewhere, but I'm trying to take the easy way out and not go searching for it lol
Vic Johanson said...
I still wonder if RW has a giant fileroom filled with "This is I" papers (the ones he told us would be burned in his fireplace once he was done grading them).
Even before I dropped out of BS I thought that "This is I" paper was wrong. RWD reasons for writing that paper was weak and not biblical. I think making people write a paper like that is sick.
jeff was there something wrong with my message concerning angela. And how she is striking a nerve with ntcc. Folks. I thought for sure I wrote one. But I do not see it.
CM
I can't believe it. I check this blog once a day and didn't even notice that everyone was posting 3 threads down!
Angela, I love your responses. They're well written, well thought out with just the right amount of sarcasm. Your a person after my own heart! lol
AXP
I used to think very highly of Mike Kekel. I used to think he was different-- that he actually cared about people. But, he has lied over and over again-- not only about those who have left, but even about people still in. It's really been quite a shock, because he claims to be a holiness preacher, and will send you to hell for some minor offense while he tells huge lies. He is exactly like a Pharisee in Jesus' time. Swallow a camel, but strain at a gnat.
It's all just a big "good cop, bad cop" routine-- with Davis as the bad cop and Kekel as the good.
They're all corrupt.
AXP
Jennifer asked...
If I wrote something for you to post, how would I go about getting it to you outside the comment thread?
Jeff said...
Give me a call and we will make it happen.
404-405-7842
Jeff
CM asked...
Jeff was there something wrong with my message concerning Angela. And how she is striking a nerve with ntcc. Folks. I thought for sure I wrote one. But I do not see it.
Jeff said...
I get so many junk messages that I have to reject that I may have deleted it. I'm moving pretty fast sometime to get these messages posted and one wrong click and, you know the rest.
Jeff
Vic and LT,
Could you guys elaborate on "this is I" paper for us who have not been "in" ntcc?
t
AXP
January 25, 2010 9:53 AM
............
=D
Right back at ya, AXP!
Will be in touch. Wow, freedom to communicate. What a novel concept!!
Angela
THANKS TO ALL:
To those of you who have come out in support of me, THANKS!
CM -- I did see a comment somewhere about me striking a nerve and someone else picked up on it. And you're right. Many nerves were struck, that's why they are lashing out.
I've said before, touch their gods of money and power and the davis dynasty and you will see the claws come out.
kekel and davis may act nice at times but be sure Psa 55v21 applies:
THE WORDS OF HIS MOUTH WERE SMOOTHER THAN BUTTER, BUT WAR WAS IN HIS HEART: HIS WORDS WERE SOFTER THAN OIL, YET WERE THEY DRAWN SWORDS.
Don't be fooled by smooth-talking ntcc 'preachers'. Trust the Still Small Voice.
Angela
Anonymous said...
I wonder if Angela will post a thread on how she made life so miserable for Eric by nagging, witholding sex, and spending all the money to the point he left her in the middle of the night, never to be seen again?
His heart attack may have been caused by her continually making his life miserable...
She seems so intent on talking about Diana, Rich, etc...
Its only right if she starts with her own sordid story.....
January 23, 2010 4:12 PM
-----------------------------------
Angela responds:
Thanks, anonymous poster, for proving true everything we have been telling people about ntcc.
My response to your allegations:
Anon: I wonder if Angela will post a thread on how she made life so miserable for Eric?--Anon
Angela: I vividly recall Eric rushing home daily at the end of his shift so he could be with me.--Angela
Anon: ... life so miserable for Eric--Anon
Angela: If you, Anon, thought Eric was so miserable, what did you do to help?--Angela
Anon: ... by nagging,--Anon
Angela: I do not nag. It is not my nature to nag or beg. Perhaps you have me mistaken with your spouse?--Angela
Anon: ... witholding sex--Anon
Angela: I never discussed Eric's sex life with anyone.
I certainly had concerns because after we were married
Eric James Barden told me he came from a family where
incest and sexual abuse took place.
That is why I did not go with him when he left ntcc to return to his
incestuous parents' place in Rhinelander, Wisconsin.
I never discussed Eric's sex life with anyone; because I knew that davis blasted people from the pulpit over private matters.
I did not want that to happen.
I felt it would harm, not help.
I see that my concern was valid.--
Angela
To be continued in another post
My response to your allegations:
Anon-- ... spending all the money--Anon
Angela--I did not spend all the money. In the first place, there was little money coming in since Eric's ministry was working for davis on the ntcc building crew.
As I recall, I used to get:
$40 a week for all groceries and household needs (cleaning supplies and toiletries) and at Christmas and Thanksgiving an extra $20 for extra baking supplies.
$10 a week for laundry when we lived in Washington.
$15 a week for laundry when we lived at the campground in Missouri; because there was more laundry; and it was very dirty from the heavy labor and long hours.
$15 a week that I put towards the $16 dollars it took to keep Eric in Gatorade while working the long hot summer days at the camp. He would sweat so much his uniforms would turn white from the dried salt!
$5 (yes, five dollars) one time during our eight year marriage for me to spend "on whatever you need".
I kept it "for emergencies".
$10 a week for gas money to give to the ladies I commuted with to prayer meeting in Washington when Eric was helping build the chapel there. That was distributed as $2 a day to whoever was driving. It was a savings compared to what it would have cost me to drive our pick-up truck back and forth to the campus in Graham from our apartment in Tacoma.
$400 one time in eight years of marriage for me to get some clothing. Eric gave me that amount after he spent the same amount on himself for new Dickies uniforms for work. I think he felt convicted?
I know I did not ask him for this money.
As I said, I do not nag or beg.
Other than that I do not recall Angela ever having or spending any other money.
Eric did have a credit card in his name.
He was the sole user of it.
I never used it or had a credit card.
There was one year where I saved $3 a week from the $10 a week laundry budget so I could buy Eric a multi-tool. It cost ~$70. You do the math how long it took to save up for that.--Angela
Other than that I do not recall Angela ever having or spending any other money.
Angela
To be continued in another post.
My response to your allegations:
Anon: ...to the point he left her in the middle of the night, .. --Anon
Angela: Eric did not leave in the middle of the night. He left on a Sunday afternoon while the other campground workers were at church in Mexico, Mo.
He told me, "I'm not leaving because of you."
To which I said, "I know."--Angela
Anon: never to be seen again--Anon
Angela: Are you saying that none of the ntcc so-called ministers attempted to see Eric again?
That is strange considering the good shepherd leaves the 99 and seeks the lost sheep.--Angela
But I think we all know the ntcc leaders are truly hirelings, not shepherds and not good.
Angela
My response to your allegations:
Anon: His heart attack may have been caused by her continually making his life miserable...--Anon
Angela: God knows what caused Eric's heart attack.--Angela
Anon: She seems so intent on talking about Diana, Rich, etc...
Its only right if she starts with her own sordid story.....--Anon
Angela--I had only good and positive things to say about Rich and Diana.
I suspect you are more concerned with the truths that I shared concerning
board members of a so-called
Christian church
and their families' involvement in
a sordid story involving
adultery,
abandonment of fellow workers,
and letting a family of six live
out of a garage
when they could have lived at the
church's campground
that was only 15 miles from the
town where
they were pastoring an ntcc
church.--Angela
I feel you do not have the Truth.
All of us will give an account to
God for what we do or don't do.
I gladly rest in my Saviour's work.
Do you?
Angela
SPIRITUAL EXTORTION THE ntcc WAY
LTravis said...
Vic Johanson said...
I still wonder if RW has a giant fileroom filled with "This is I" papers (the ones he told us would be burned in his fireplace once he was done grading them).
Even before I dropped out of BS I thought that "This is I" paper was wrong. RWD reasons for writing that paper was weak and not biblical. I think making people write a paper like that is sick.
January 24, 2010 11:19 PM --LTravis
-----------------------------------
Ange says,
I thought that paper was SO WRONG!
I was never given that assignment; but I gave plenty thought to what I would write and no bullying or preaching or bad grade threat would have changed it either:
THIS IS I:
THEREFORE IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATURE: OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; BEHOLD, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW.
END OF FILE
Whatever happened to rdub claiming we were not to discuss what happened before the blood of Christ being applied to our lives?
I always viewed this paper as r w davis's sick technique for getting the dirt on people only to use it later to exploit them!
Life has proven ntcc uses people.
ntcc lies about people.
ntcc threatens people.
ntcc wants to know what you did before you got saved in order to give them more ammunition for their spiritual extortion.
Angela
No biggie Jeff. I thought maybe I had been absented minded. And I wrote it and did not send. That is fine. Other folks said pretty much what I wanted to share. About Angela exposing the facts. So all ntcc fanatics can do is attack on a very personal level.
Which is what they did to Tracy P. and now to Angela. and to you as well Jeff.
CM
GLAD TO BE OUT OF ntcc--
Vic said,
"Who knows, maybe he did arise from the wreckage of being in ntcc!"
I know--he's doing great, and may be coming up for another visit this summer. We were best friends in the org; RW ran him off a year before it was my turn.--Vic
Ange says,
HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD, YE THAT TREMBLE AT HIS WORD; YOUR BRETHREN THAT HATED YOU, THAT CAST YOU OUT FOR MY NAME'S SAKE, SAID, LET THE LORD BE GLORIFIED: BUT HE SHALL APPEAR TO YOUR JOY, AND THEY SHALL BE ASHAMED.--ISA 66V5
=D
Angela
"Could you guys elaborate on "this is I" paper for us who have not been "in" ntcc?"
He assigned it in his Psychology class; we were to write a paper of self analysis, withholding no secrets in exposing the composition of our personalities. He claimed he would read and grade these papers, and then burn them in his fireplace. Most of us spilled our guts, because we were loyal and obedient and believed in him. But even if he did burn these papers, he still gained an insight into us that was quite useful in the hands of such a skilled manipulator. He's unmercifully suckered hundreds of sincere and good people, and now he's old and paranoid and Mike and the new breed will inherit the machine. They might spin it better, but until they come clean about the past, nothing will have changed, they'll only perpetuate the "apostle's" Machiavellian tactics and laugh all the way to the bank.
"Anon: His heart attack may have been caused by her continually making his life miserable..."
Eric's cholesterol and triglycerides were off the scale even during his twenties; he was medicated for it. And are we supposed to accept a cause and effect relationship between alleged (and denied) imparted misery and a heart attack many years later, shortly after Eric remarried? What, are you going to blame the new wife now?
Eric had a heart attack because it's appointed unto man once to die. I'm actually surprised our anonymous contributor didn't ascribe it to the judgment of God; those of us who have spent any length of time in the org have heard numerous tales of lurid calamity visited on those who "left 'God'" (i.e. NTCC). We were conditioned to fear for our very lives should we decide to leave the org. "There's the door," he'd shout, but we knew that woes on earth and flames of hell waited on the other side. Head games.
For the record I didn't write the "this is I paper". I thought it was wrong period! I remember RW saying that he wouldn't want his sins on parade for everyone to see. Then he wants you to expose your soul for him to see.
The bible says that there is one mediator between God and man and here's a little secret for you it's not RW.
Vic wrote...
He assigned it in his Psychology class; we were to write a paper of self analysis, withholding no secrets in exposing the composition of our personalities.
Jeff said...
Vic:!!!! That is actually one of the most alarming messages that I've read about RWD and the NTCC in a long time. This guy is one seriously diabolical dude. He is like Hitler. That is so sick and I see it that way because I am sure of RWD's purpose for having you perform such an assignment. The church of christ essentially has their members do the same thing but it is a regular practice. They want you to spill all your guts about your past, your unlawful deeds, and everything else bad about yourself that you can remember. Then they use it against you.
Well RWD is such a control freak maniac that he had you perform this assignment so he could control you even more. It gave him the feeling of power almost like God. He couldn't read your minds but he could do the next best thing. Have you right it all on paper so he could psychoanalyst you even further to give him yet even more control over your life, (as though he didn't have enough already). I'm certain of this.
He is a sick dude who is one serious cult tactician. Now I believe that I've heard it all since you've written that Vic. Certain statements really catch my attention and that statement was the Mack daddy. Wow is RWD on diabolical dude.
Jeff
"$15 a week that I put towards the $16 dollars it took to keep Eric in Gatorade while working the long hot summer days at the camp. He would sweat so much his uniforms would turn white from the dried salt!"
Before, I only felt ashamed for having put my kids through proletariat NTCC childhoods. I certainly regretted my own experience, and felt stupid for being deceived, but didn't feel any shame over it. However, after reading the description Angela has provided of their lifestyle in the org (a lifestyle to which most of us can personally relate), now I'm also ashamed of my role in drawing Eric Barden into the trap. The privations he and Angela and many others have endured make the opulent lifestyles of the elites abundantly more obscene (didn't someone recently mention James 5?).
Where are thine accusers, Angela? There really doesn't seem to be very much for them to say.
I remember that stupid paper being assigned while we were in Graham also. I remember being sick about it. It as so unbiblical!
Never Harm
Vic, wrote,
Where are thine accusers, Angela? There really doesn't seem to be very much for them to say.
January 27, 2010 3:36 AM
Ange knows:
A SERVANT WILL NOT BE CORRECTED BY WORDS; FOR THOUGH HE UNDERSTAND HE WILL NOT ANSWER.--PROV. 29v19
THE SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN!
Vic, no worries or shame are needed. Just as I wrote on Deb's blog, ntcc killed us with our love.
Your motives were right. That is what God sees. Rom. 8v1. No condemnation allowed. =D
Angela
L Travis wrote,
The bible says that there is one mediator between God and man and here's a little secret for you it's not RW. January 26, 2010 10:59 AM--L Travis
L. T. !! I have put that thought to music, with the melody of that song, Make A Joyful Noise Unto the Lord (Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir?):
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord...
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord...
It is GOD Who hath made us,
And NOT SOME OLD davis!
We are GOD'S people and the sheep of GOD'S pasture.
BIG SMILE =D
Angela
Guess they won't be singing that one up at the B.S. any time soon.
My mom told me about that "This is I" paper, back when I was young and naive, and looking towards a future in Bible School. I remember being shocked that everyone was being asked to write down every single sin they could remember ever having committed for someone else to read. What made this worse for me to stomach is that RW had said something to the affect of "Be honest - I will know if you are lying or leaving something out" giving that "I am God" aura.
I firmly believe that when you ask Christ into your heart, all things are stripped away, and "behold, all things are become new" 2nd Corinthians 5:17. The way I was taught was that you became a blank slate, and that you had to constantly get it wiped away by asking for forgivness from God if you were to slip up. In fact, my mom taught me that when I knelt to pray, I should always start by confessing anything that I might have done, and to ask forgivness for anything I may have forgotten. So, the "This is I" paper completely skewed my reality of what I knew to be true, based on what my parents had raised me to believe. I think this was the start of my disallusionment of NTCC.
"What made this worse for me to stomach is that RW had said something to the affect of "Be honest - I will know if you are lying or leaving something out" giving that "I am God" aura."
He was always doing that. RW told us that he could "read us like a book" and that he knew more about ourselves than we did. It was part of our mental conditioning, to get us to believe he was this Super Apostle that God routinely spoke with face to face, like Moses. I don't believe it anymore. I think he's a fraud and a charlatan. He has a gift for manipulation. He spun these papers as a tool for us to face ourselves, but really it was to clue him in and enable him to more accurately target us psychologically.
He's not that smart, but he's very shrewd and cunning.
Jennifer Maesner said...
What made this worse for me to stomach is that RW had said something to the affect of "Be honest - I will know if you are lying or leaving something out" giving that "I am God" aura.
*********
If he was so omniscient why did he need anyone confessing their sin to him? That whole "This is I paper" was a bunch of crap.
DIRTY PEOPLE WANT THE DIRT ON YOU
THAT IS THE SOLE PURPOSE OF THE "THIS IS I" PAPER.
davis is dirty so he wants the dirt on you to hold over your head when you find out about his dirt.
Catch a crook stealing, he will try to give you some of the loot so you will be dirty too and won't turn him in.
It's a con. A dirty con.
Jennifer, You were right about the clean slate! Don't doubt the power of the blood of Jesus to remove all sin.
davis's purpose in having people write those papers is devilsh.
Angela
I'M STILL WAITING TO SEE HOW YOU HELPED ERIC BARDEN WHO YOU SAY WAS SO MISERABLE.
PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ALL OF US WITH YOUR GRACIOUS WORDS AND THOUGHTFUL INSIGHTS OF GOD'S WISDOM AS TO HOW YOU HELPED ERIC?
WAS IT WHEN YOU TOLD HIM TO GO HANG HIMSELF?
RELIEF FROM MISERY THROUGH SUICIDE?
SOUNDS LIKE satan AND ntcc TO ME.
THAT'S r.w. davis's SOLUTION--
KIND OF LIKE hitler's FINAL SOLUTION FOR THE JEWS, HUH?
WELL, HEIL hitler YOU NAZIS.
I ALWAYS DID SUSPECT george r. (dad) keener OF BEING A NAZI INTERROGATOR WHO SWITCHED UNIFORMS WITH A DEAD AMERICAN G.I. AND STOLE THE G.I.'S IDENTITY. SNAKE.
WELL, ANYWAY, THANKS FOR ALL YOUR 'LOVE' AND 'APPRECIATION' AND 'HELP'. SURE COULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN ALONG WITHOUT ALL THAT YOU DID FOR US...
GO HANG YOURS...
Is that yourSelf?
or your Son
or your grandSon
or your Sister
KINDA PUTS IT IN A DIFFERENT LIGHT WHEN IT'S COMING AT YOU/YOURS, DOESN'T IT?
MAY GOD REQUIRE IT OF YOU AND YOURS.
Angela
IT'S 'GOOD' AND 'KIND' HIRELINGS LIKE THE ntcc 'LEADERS' THAT KEEP THE MORTUARIES FULL AROUND OUR NATION.
THANKS EVER SO MUCH.
Angela
BTW-I KNOW YOU THINK YOUR SECRET IS SAFELY BURIED IN THE 100 PLUS COMMENTS ON THIS ARTICLE,
BUT GOD SAW.
AND GOD HEARD.
LET'S SEE HOW YOU LIKE BEING THREATENED? YOU KNOW, HOW YOU LIKE TO TWIST THE SCRIPTURES TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE GOD IS OUT TO GET EVERYONE.
WELL, BIG-BROTHER-WITH-THE-IP- ADDRESSES
GOD IS WATCHING YOU!
Angela
rwd HAS WOMEN REDUCED TO THIS--I'LL TELL YOU THE REAL SHAME HERE is rw davis has women reduced to being like him, taking potshots at him and using God as a threat.
But the Bible teaches to answer a fool according to his folly, so r.w. there is your answer you fool.
FOR WHAT SHALL IT PROFIT A MAN IF HE GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD AND LOSE HIS OWN SOUL?
I did that stupid "This is I" paper also. It was incredibly difficult for me to write-- especially, because I had just gotten saved, and Jesus had just FORGIVEN me of all my sins-- and now RW Davis is telling me (no, ORDERING me and everyone else) to write down every little secret sin you ever committed. You know-- the ones you are trying to forget about because now you're a Christian.
Writing that paper was like skydiving for the first time. You're scared to death, you're brain doesn't want to do it, but you tell yourself it's going to be alright (because the "man of God" said to do it), and you just step into the unknown. I still cringe thinking about all the things I wrote!
One of these days Davis is going to kick the bucket, and everyone in ntcc will put on a phony sad face and phony tears and say how great RWD was-- but inside they'll all be rejoicing and saying, "Thank God that evil narcissist no longer encumbers the Earth!"
AXP (another ex-preacher)
Now you're doing some good preaching, Angela! That's what we used to call "getting your field plowed." RW isn't accustomed to rebuke (unless h's delivering it), and refuses to receive it from anyone, or even from the scriptures he professes to believe. He doesn't handle conflict well at all. Oh, he's the big 'apostle' behind his bully pulpit with a few hundred lickspittles backing him. But if you've ever decide not to toe his line, you learn that he doesn't have any use for you. He doesn't keep his composure in the face of defiance. If you won't do his bidding, you'll meet "that other fella over in the office," his evil twin, doing the Vesuvius impersonation of which he often boasted. We were warned in advance not to cross him.
Who among us hasn't seen RW Davis get right up in someone's face and scream vehemently at them in front of hundreds of people? You remember--it comes right before that pin-dropping silence and those uneasy shifting gazes. It's a total alpha-male maneuver that put us all on public notice not to mess with him. He loved terrifying people, scowling at them and keeping them off-balance with rude antisocial behavior.
He has a whole collection of head games which he uses as tools to fathom the motives of others, and is continually paranoid and suspicious. In questionable matters, he doesn't give benefit of the doubt, but places the worst possible construction on others' actions.
RW would preach about love, but like Joe Olson used to say: "Your life is speaking so loudly I can't hear your words."
One of these days Davis is going to kick the bucket, and everyone in ntcc will put on a phony sad face and phony tears and say how great RWD was-- but inside they'll all be rejoicing and saying, "Thank God that evil narcissist no longer encumbers the Earth!"
AXP said.
That is how I felt when my DH stepped down from being a minister. I was so unsure how to really feel. Inside I was jumping for joy. But then I thought should I be sad. Because my husband will no longer be a minister that supposedly God had called him to be.
God called him to reach lost souls. He can do that in front of a pulpit. Just as much or MORE then behind a pulpit!
Took me about a year. Then I was thrilled we had left. And Freedom was so sweet!
CM
A shout out to all the folks stuck in ntcc. That come on here to read. But say nothing. Maybe because there afraid Mike K. will trace them back. And find out they posted on a exer's blog!
Or are afraid that ntcc will find out how they really feel. And that they know the truth of what ntcc is all about.
Corruption,greed,evil dealings!
keep coming on and reading. Your fog is lifting. You are starting to realize that ntcc is not what it is cracked up to be. I hope one day SOON. You do jump ship. Like so many of us have done. And found out,that God is outside of ntcc. Stronger,and much more closer in our live's! Because a Man is not running our live's. God IS!!
I stay blogging for the folks that are still in ntcc. Some that stay out of fear. Some that won't listen and realize what a shame they are involved in. Some that think I have been in for so long. I have to stay and die in ntcc.
You can do it. Women in abusive relationships feel the same way. FEAR!! Making that first step is the hardest.
CM
FEAR!! Making that first step is the hardest.--CM
Good point CM.
BUT YOU CAN DO IT.
And you will have friends here waiting for you!!
Angela
Especially women. Think they HAVE to stay in ntcc. They HAVE to be under a man. They HAVE to stay in subjection(cult control subjection) All there friends are in ntcc. That is ONLY because ntcc shuns you from making friends with those gawd awful sinners. People that are only used for one purpose. Invite them to church,bring there wallets. And we don't care if we run them off. Because they have already deposited there dollar bills in the metal plate. Go back out folks and bring in some more suckers! Oh,but no low life bums. Because they don't have any money. They are no good to us!!
Folks still stuck in the cult. You can jump ship. Because it really is much,much,much better out then stuck under there yoke. Under there lies. That are now JUST POLICIES! You will have closer friends. Friends that will be there for you through thick and thin. Friends not looking to stab you in the back. Just to get in good with Mike K. And that is alot of folks in ntcc will do to ANYONE! Got to earn brownie points somehow!
And your ministry. God is waiting for you to leave the cult. I have theory. God uses our horrible living conditions in ntcc. To get us to WAKE up and get out of the crap! Bills piling up,can hardly feed the kids,clothing them ONLY at thrift store's. No money to do much of anything. But pay the church rental and try and cover your own rent. Getting those payday loans. To try and get you through. But what happens then. You can't pay the payday loans and interest piles up! BEEN there DONE that!
God is using the situations that have been created. From folks trying to live up to ntcc expectations. Being the so called leaders.
There are so many of us here that know that God is so much more REAL. You have Got to answer to. Not Mike K. or any of the ntcc leaders breathing down your neck! Watching your every step. using spies to watch others and report back. Guess where else that happened. GERMANY with the Nazi's and the Jews! Friends spied on friends there!
You will find like I did. Once we left ntcc. So much Stress left my body! Stressing out because no one showed up for Church again. Stress trying to make ONE income stretch much further then is resonable. Stress of Having to go up to complete strangers doors and ask them to go to Church. Stress of then having to Bug them(checking up on them) Get all dolled up for Church on Sunday. Just to sit in a empty room. Walk out,humilated and lots of stress!
A huge relief happens when you leave ntcc. That is when you know you made the right decision!
CM
Jeff,
Does any of this sound familiar?
8 characteristics of a
high-control group
1.
Milieu Control - Control of communication both from without and within the group environment, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from the surrounding society. Includes other techniques to restrict members' contact with outside world and to be able to make critical, rational judgments about information: overwork, busy-ness, multiple lengthy meetings, etc.
2.
Mystical Manipulation - The claim of divine authority or spiritual advancement that allows the leader to reinterpret events as he or she wishes, or make prophecies or pronouncements at will, all for the purpose of controlling group members.
3.
Demand for Purity - The world is viewed as black and white and group members are constantly exhorted to strive for perfection. Consequently, guilt and shame are common and powerful control devices.
4.
The Cult of Confession - Serious (and often not so serious) sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed, either privately to a personal monitor or publicly to the group at large.
5.
The "Sacred Science" - The doctrine of the group is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or disputing. The leader of the group is likewise above criticism as the spokesperson for God on earth.
6.
Loading the Language - The group develops a jargon in many ways unique to itself, often not understandable to outsiders. This jargon consists of numerous words and phrases which the members understand (or think they do), but which really act to dull one's ability to engage in critical thinking.
7.
Doctrine over Person - The personal experiences of the group members are subordinated to the "Truth" held by the group -- apparently contrary experiences must be denied or re-interpreted to fit the doctrine of the group. The doctrine is always more important than the individual.
8.
Dispensing of Existence - The group arrogates to itself the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. Usually held non-literally, this means that those outside the group are unspiritual, worldly, satanic, "unconscious," or whatever, and that they must be converted to the ideas of the group or they will be lost. If they refuse to join the group, then they must be rejected by the group members, even if they are family members. In rare cases this concept gives the group the right to terminate the outsider's life.
quoted from Robert Lipton
Jeff, You've got mail.
"Well, rdub was always wanting to get more free labor from his workers, so the demands were high and Jerry was working late in the B.S. office and Penny shows up and yada yada yada: broken home, ruined lives, hurting children... wmat a mess. Just so rdub can squeeze a bit more out of a brother." Bit G said.
Jerry never worked for the ntcc office.
He may not have but he sure did some hanky panky with Penny and the next thing you know they both leave their spouses and get married to each other. That is some good old fashioned holiness NTCC style. What a soap opera. That is the NTCC version of desperate housewives. NTCC men have a history of swapping wives for good. Then comes the big Ashmore cover-up. You call that holiness? If that is what the NTCC is offering I don't want any.
..............................PREACH!
.................................AMEN!!!
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