First picture: The uneven balance indicative of the testimonies written below. Second picure: The three crooks; RWD, Gesang, and Kekel with his expensive guitar. Third picture: Olson after he has told the departing minister to zero out his escrow account.On Deb Shunk's blog Kristofer Moore wrote...
I went to Graham, fixed the door, and thought of a low price for Gesang that wouldn't be too low for my boss. I said $150. I am pretty sure it was 2 springs I replaced. My boss, sometimes, would go down to $175 on a spring job, but basically that was supposed to be the price of ONE spring. I told Eli the price, and he said, "I don't think so, Brother Moore. We're not gonna do this unless it's gonna be a blessing to us, too." I just said, great. He's gonna get me in trouble with my boss. I just said, I don't care. I'll take the hit, and asked him how much he wanted to pay me. Just give me whatever you want. He said, how about I'll give you a hundred bucks.
Vic Johanson replied...
Kristopher, this reminds me of when I was working for Valley Press in Puyallup, and Mike K. approached me about getting a break on some printing work done for when they were going to open the BS chapel up to the local community. I got samples, and naturally they wanted the most luxurious stock available. They were specifically warned that it would be very expensive, but it was "nothing but the best for God's 'program.'"
I got them a good price, and they were satisfied with the quality of the work, but as soon as they got the bill, they were grumbling and murmuring about how costly it was, trying to get me to chisel my boss (the same Christian boss who had donated hundreds of dollars worth of paper for NTCC's own print shop) for a bigger discount. I made a lukewarm attempt, but they just looked at me like I was nuts and reminded me of how they had specifically issued a warning on the high cost of the requested material and already given them a good deal.
It was very uncomfortable to be placed in that position, but it did serve to alert me to their duplicitous ways. My boss rejoiced with me when I fired them.
Jeff said...
What a bunch of crooks. Those are prime examples of the old bait and switch. It's amazing that the NTCC leadership has the audacity to preach against other sales professions when their own ministers are conducting themselves in such a fashion. I guess RWD taught the NTCC leadership not to exercise honor or good character. I know of a specific instance and I've read about others where NTCC pastors sold cars to their church members for way more then the cars were worth. The above accounts are prime examples of the old bait and switch were a crooked customer comes to a automobile dealership, finds an automobile they want to buy, agrees on a price, and then once the vehicle is detailed, filled up with gas, additional accessories added and the vehicle ready for delivery the customer says, "I won't take delivery of the car unless you take off another $500. It's amazing to me just how crooked these NTCC money grubbers have become.
They deceitfully place scriptures in their doctrinal statement to support tithes such as 1Cor 16:2, which have absolutely nothing to do with tithing. They sell cars to their church members for way more than they are worth. They hire folks to do work for them and after the services have already been rendered, they decline on paying the price determined by the person who performed the service and labor. They buy church buildings with money which has been stored up and accumulated by controlling escrow accounts and then after the building has been purchased, soak the congregation for even more money for items such as new insulation, upgraded church signs, decorative lighting, better pews and the list goes on. They do all this while the whole time creating an atmosphere which results in a continual turnaround of church members and ministers and why? Because it's obvious that the NTCC is not about good will and the saving of souls; the NTCC is about the accumulation of property and once that has been done, if the souls don't like it, "THERE IS THE DOOR". We were all duped and it is obvious when you read the testimonies above. RWD has created a select group of conniving, money grubbing crooks which are stark reminders of the money changers that Christ rebuked in the temple. The more I learn about the NTCC and its leaders, the more I despise the organization.
Jeff Collins
109 comments:
Jeff, once again, a cool thread complete with applicable pics. I can add something here.
gesang used to have the brothers run all over to pick up supplies for the building crew's work for davis. But eli never offered them gas money. I don't know if Eric had to talk to davis or eli or if my prayer got that ball rolling. Finally eli would occassionally dole out some gas $ if E brought him a receipt; but I got the sense it was all done grudgingly, 'If I have to...'
Of course eli did just as much running around for the building crew and other ntcc projects; but isn't he on a salary? I don't know.
Christians should be ethical. And they are to love one another, not try to take advantage of and soak a brother.
Ange
verna's new cadillacs or digging a
trench by hand with a shovel:
** Ethics in Christianity...
Or lack thereof...**
While at the camp one year the John
Deere (an ancient D-9 (I think)
backhoe) needed some new tires. The
old ones were shot.
I remember Russ Mears, the ntcc
National Campground Caretaker, trying
to broach the topic with davis.
It was like Oliver Twist asking for
porridge, "Please, Sir; I'd like some
more...." And it had the same results.
davis GOT MAD.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THOSE TIRES DIG THAT TRENCH BY HAND.
They dug by hand. Missouri Clay. I
think it was the trench for the
foundation wall of the building closest to the tabernacle. It didn't have a name yet but was patterned after the Minister's Quarters located on the hill behind the Lodge. What I'm saying is it was a
VERY BIG BUILDING -- 28 hotel-style rooms.
Let's estimate one room at 12'x12', two 6' wide stairwells on either end of the building and a 6' hallway through the middle of the building--and I think I'm being conservative with these estimates:
Roughly (30'w + 180'l) x 2 = 420' LONG TRENCH for the foundation wall.
And deep too (2'~4'd) --it has
to bare the weight of the building.
~420 feet x 3 feet deep ...That's a lot of trench WITH a backhoe.
JUST IMAGINE MOVING ALL THAT WET HEAVY CLAY BY HAND. `1260 CUBIC FEET OF CLAY. YIKES!
And it might have been a different
project. But here's the point,
TO BE CONTINUED...
Angela
** Ethics in Christianity...
Or lack thereof...**
...continued from previous post...
verna's new cadillacs or digging a
trench by hand with a shovel...
rdub buys a BRAND NEW CADILLAC when his current one hits 50,000 miles on the odometer (or mamma gets tired of last season's color).
But he gets mad at Russ for asking to
have safe equipment to use for digging a trench?
If you're not familiar with construction, it is very dangerous work. Some men have died when chest-
deep trenches they were working in
collapsed in on them and crushed them.
Even with proper equipment it is
dangerous. Especially with heavy clay like there is at the camp.
Somebody has to clean out the backhoe's bucket with a shovel by hand because the clay sticks.
But the hydraulics can cause that
bucket to jump and flatten a dude or
pin him or crush him. Or an
inattentive operator can get loose on
the controls and cause the same thing
to happen. Or the guy on the shovel might miss a beat and get himself in harm's way....
It's all dangerous. So you need good
equipment. It's an safety issue.
And think of the manual labor. Hand-
digging a trench? I had a picture of
the backhoe sitting useless with no
tires on it.
The tires matter. It's not just
aesthetics! They bare the weight of
that machine and whatever it is moving.
You can't afford to have them go out
from under you! It could crush someone and kill them or maim them for life.
rdub knows this stuff. he's been
running the show for years. They know.
But rdub DOES NOT CARE!!!!!!!
ALL HE CARES ABOUT IS HIS MONEY, HIS
CADILLACS, MAKING HIMSELF LOOK GOOD, NO MATTER WHAT.
YOU DO NOT MATTER TO HIM!
BOTTOM LINE.
Sickening.
Angela
ABUSING BROTHERS--SIN THE ntcc WAY...
Why do I link the stories about gesang running brothers around without giving them gas money, and davis the boss forcing peon building crew members to dig a trench by hand to a thread called "The Old Bait And Switch"??? Because they all come under one umbrella:
ABUSING BROTHERS.
(1)--Bait and Switch is one technique of abusing brothers.
(2)--Your boss, elliot gesang, telling you to pick up something for the job on your time in your vehicle using your gas without paying you for any of that is another technique of abusing brothers.
(3)--Your boss forcing you to dig a trench by hand because you dared to ask him to buy new tires for the machine that could help you do the job is another technique of abusing brothers.
1,2,3 examples of
ABUSING BROTHERS.
SIN THE ntcc WAY.
TO BE CONTINUED...
Angela
ABUSING GIL LUNA: (ex. #4 of ntcc
ABUSING BROTHERS):
For a couple of years Gil Luna and some others on the building crew had been discussing the wisdom of purchasing a power washer/sprayer to use water to strip old paint off the wooden buildings at the camp so they could then be painted with the same machine.
This is necessary to effectively
preserve the wood. It made sense.
Paint is cheaper than wood and the
steamy Missouri climate is tough on
exposed wood.
But, once again, davis shot down the
idea. How dare you little peons
suggest that the church spend from its over-stuffed-coffers to get you the equipment you need to do the job that ""I"" rdub-the-great demand from you!?!
You peons should take your personal
money and buy that $300 piece of
equipment. After all, you are the one using it...(to do the job for rdub)...
To punish Gil Luna for his insidiously impudent suggestion, rdub had Gil hand-scrape the buildings at the camp by himself with a wire brush.
All summer from ~8 A.M. to ~9 P.M. with maybe two hour breaks for meals, Gil was out there scraping away (skin-tight shirt and all)...
I'm shaking my head thinking about it.
I think there were ten buildings that
needed stripping and painting. I think maybe he finished three?
It was an impossible mission for one man meant to break his will and humble him into the kind of submission that doesn't dare ask for anything....
And don't you dare come between a dawg and his bone (to wit):
Don't try to get rdub to part with any of ntcc's money!!
And don't you dare question his authority!
(And you better call me "ma'am" says verna.)
I told you, touch his gods of money and power (or her delusions of grandeur) and you will see the nasty come out.
ABUSE OF THE BROTHERS.
SIN THE ntcc WAY.
Angela
That's ruff!
Servants have ruled over us. Lam5.8
This thread brings up another point-- that you have to use your OWN money for church-related supplies. I've talked to a number of women who said if they needed any supplies for children's church they had to pay for it THEMSELF! Ntcc wouldn't pay for anything. It is like that for anything you do. You have to spend YOUR money (which most of us didn't have any). It reminds me of the Pharoah telling the Israelites that they need to make HIS bricks with their OWN straw. Oh, and by the way, your quota has just been increased!
Wow! You could start a whole thread on gas money alone! I have to say at least 1/3 of our income went to gas car maintenance. If you add offering, tithe, children s church...about 35 to 45 percent!
Wish we had money left over to "play" in the stock market!
Anon!
The story about Luna is sad, angela.
I really don't know much about this brother Luna, but I think his wife or daughter is sick with some type of disease like leukemia, but don't quote me, because I'm not very sure. Somebody out there might know.
I can't imagine this kind of treatment from a christian to another christian, specially one who is suppossed to be your pastor.
This brings another point too, about the men that act like "girly men" I remember when the pastors I was under would get a visit from the overseers, like rwd, olson, etc, and suddenly they would act like idiots, and forgive me for using this word, but it was like these pastors would regressed to being a little kid and didn't know how to act anymore. I don't know what dynamic played in their lives to act in such a way when the overseers were around.
I guess they have such control on your life that you can't really be yourself.
So weird.
blovd
blovd, good points about how people regress.
I know Kitty Luna's mother had cancer. It would greatly sadden me to learn of either Kitty or her daughter being sick too.
I am glad they had a daughter. that alone is miraculous in the confines of ntcc.
Did they ever a get a different vehicle than that Ford side-step truck that Gil owned for years?
That alone indicates how poor davis's workers are while he and his family buy new luxury cars every year the workers live on in poverty.
I know. I did it too.
It is wickedness and evil to oppress brothers. And even more wicked to claim to be a brother and even more claim to be a pastor and yet be the chief sinner in this way, oppressing Christians. It's very demonic -- davis's and kekel's treatment of Christians.
Angela
Back to the regressive behavior thing:
Abuse victims cling to their abusers.
Kids who were beaten by their 'father' often run up to him for hugs or any attention they are 'allowed' to get from him.
That's what this regressive behavior is that you see.
davis and kekel know people crave attention; and davis and kekel use that natural desire to exploit and abuse people.
It is a normal desire to seek attention. But pray and use the discernment God gives you.
Do not cast the pearls of your lives before swine like davis and kekel only to have them turn and trample you again.
Learn from the mistakes of others who have experienced this from davis and kekel.
Leave ntcc.
Serve God.
Not man.
Angela
OOPS! My math was wrong. That's a two story building, not a one story.
That means seven rooms on each side of the hall per each floor (not 14).
Based on rooms 12'x12', two 6' wide stairwells at ends of building, and a 6' wide hallway in middle of building the overall trench length would be say252' with 756 cubic feet of clay for say a 3' deep trench. Still alot of work!!
Just keeping it real.
Angela
Did you ever dig a trench by hand? I have. It was ~24' long, ~1' deep and in nice soil, not clay. It took me two days; and I had some help with some of it that had roots--used water to remove the dirt around the roots.
Very hard work!
Ange
TO THOSE OF YOU STILL IN ntcc--
Don't be afraid to weigh-in here.
This is an open forum.
If you have something to say, we'd love to 'hear' from you.
Angela
It reminds me of the Pharoah telling the Israelites that they need to make HIS bricks with their OWN straw. Oh, and by the way, your quota has just been increased! February 18, 2010 9:00 AM--Anon
You said it!
ntccs paranoia is a huge red flag pointing to their guilt
A word to all you 'ministers' in ntcc--
If you can read one more of these true stories about how davis and kekel abuse people and still carry a ntcc 'ministers' license in your pocket, then I've got no more respect for you.
Because you are saying that davis and kekel can abuse anybody they want to, as long as it isn't you.
But if you believe that God meant it when He said,
THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF
you'll turn in your 'ministers' card without a word and leave ntcc. Just walk into kekel's office and drop it on his desk without a word and leave.
But if you want to stay in ntcc, then at your next cult meeting, look at the man on your side and tell him, "I don't love you 'brother'--so if kekel wants to scr*w you, that's fine with me; just so long as he doesn't scr*w me." Go ahead. Might as well be honest about it. Because every day you stay in ntcc and let kekel and davis ruin one more person's life, that is what you are really saying.
But if you want to be a real man again like you were before you turned over your manhood to ntcc, leave.
And if you think of me, put these three little letters on your 'ministers' license when you turn it in:
EJB
Those were my husband's initials.
Angela
Makes me so sad that there are peole trying to get into working for rwd, specially after hearing all the testimonies of the mistreatament. I remember how that tieman stood up and boldly stated that he wanted to be a company man in nttc. He wanted one of those chairs in the board. He never preached about the love of god or how he wanted to go out and try to help the souls of men and women, he just wanted to belong to the board and he was going to do anything in his power to attain that. It was all just a competition for him to be on the top, and his wife attested to that by saying that she never wanted to play board games with him because he always wanted to win and would go on and on until he won, she sad that sometimes she would let him win just to finish and go on.
so sad to think that all the people in ntcc are like that, trying to get ahead by stepping on anybody that comes your way.
Tiemans don't have a real marriage. For years she has gone around behind his back complaining about him. She is the reason they made the no fellowship rule at the campground. She was talking about how lousy their sex life was, complaining to people she didn't even know. What a desparate thing to do. Guess she knew she wouldn't get any help from her pastor. But now he is on the board? And probably nothing has changed for the better in their personal lives. Oh well. That's ntcc. Tell everyone else how to live so they don't see how bad my life is.
Hypocrisy.
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that 'they be' in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober , to love thier husbands, to love their children, 'To be 'discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blashphemed. from Titus ch.2
Why do you say that? I don't see the Tieman's in that. I have heard Nichelle talk so badly about her own brothers (flesh and blood), the Dobikins (sp?) and her own husband that it makes me wonder what bad things she will say to others about me?
And David seems to be so clueless about his own wife's unhappiness?
And for years. I'm not talking about one or two isolated incidents. This is a pattern, a way of life for them: If I don't see it; it isn't there. If I don't like it; I tell random people about it.
And these are the kind of people ntcc wants on their BOARD AS OVERSEERS AND INSTRUCTORS OF OTHERS?
Sorry. If you can't take care of your own house...???
And davis KNOWS. I KNOW he KNEW!!!
Makes me think people are right when they say davis wants to hold peoples' dirt over their heads so he can turn the screws tighter and get them to jump higher...
Guess what guys, you're free. The secret is out. YOU, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE (EXCEPT JESUS)...
YOU ARE NOT PERFECT!
Isn't that liberating? Just to know that it is not based on your performance, your chance to go to heaven.
YOU TOO NEED THE GRACE AND MERCY OF GOD TO GO TO HEAVEN.
You really can't earn it. So stop frontin' and acting perfect. We know. But we loved you anyway. Wish I could say the same for you, that you had loved people anyway. But your words and actions prove otherwise....
Guess you could put that on the altar too. Or you could choose to continue your fraudulant dyed-in-the-wool company men and women routine. Free will. But I'm free of your blood.
Hmmnn. Are you?
Ange
I'm disappointed that none of the inner circle has defected yet. I had hoped that at least one of them had some kind of conscience, and would at some point bail and start publishing where the bodies are buried. Maybe they're too complicit themselves, and are afraid to go down with RW. Maybe he has dirt on them all. But it would be refreshing if Eli, or John DiFrancesco, or someone else who has finally had enough of being dominated by a narcissist, would man up and spill his guts.
I believe it would please the Lord.
Check out the Feb. 19th comments on Jeff's thread titled "A Little Tidbit Of Information About Mike Kekel's Blog"
I know I've mentioned this before, but right before leaving NTCC I had the distinct impression that Gail Olson was very unhappy and sick of all of it. She didn't say that, but I got the impression that she wanted to bail on ntcc. Maybe she does have a conscience and it's bothering her.
I also noticed that DiFranscesco's wife rarely came around. Maybe she was doing children's church or something, but I also believe she is fed up with things.
AXP
OK folks. I have two stories that are going to blow your mind. They were told to me personally the people involved.
The first involved Mark Noel and his family. They were living in St. Louis (2005-2006?), and Rev. Wright was the pastor. He told me that Wright nagged him and nagged him to move his family into "church property". For those of you who don't know, that is a house or apartment owned by one of the leaders of ntcc, and usually it is condemned or just a rundown dump. Well after guilt tripping him for a while, poor Mark decided to move into "church property". He told me they moved from a decent place in a good neighborhood, to a dump in a dangerous neighborhood. Mark said it was scary. But, of course, Wright didn't care-- he just wanted the money.
Well, the place was falling apart, and the roof leaked like crazy. Mark asked numerous times if the landlord (an NTCC leader) could please fix the leak in the roof. Every time Wright would get mad and say, "NO!! Fix it yourself!" (I am not exaggerating anything). So one day, Mark climbs up on the roof (in the rain) to fix the roof using his own money!
Finally, after the Wright's treated them like trash the whole time they were in St. Louis, Davis told Mark & family to move back to Graham. When they informed Wright that they were moving, he went ballistic. Told them they were a bunch of losers AND (get this) they couldn't serve God anywhere else except in HIS church! What a load of you-know-what.
Mark, if you are reading this, please-- for the sake of your family-- LEAVE NTCC IMMEDIATELY!!
AXP (another ex-preacher)
OK, story #2 to blow your mind. (Again told to me firsthand).
This one involves Mark Travato and his family. Again, in St. Louis. (For those of you not familiar with St. Louis-- it used to be the HQ of ntcc back in the 80's. Davis personally picks the most abusive, jerk preachers to pastor there).
Mark also lived in "church property"-- owned by one of the leaders of ntcc. Well, this one was also located in a dangerous neighborhood. Mark said he couldn't let his kids go outside and play. Well the problem this house had was, the furnace broke and wouldn't stop running. He brought it to the pastor's attention (who I think was also Wright). He was told point-blank that the church would NOT fix the problem. If he wanted it fixed he would have to pay for it himself. He didn't have the money. (By the way, it is illegal for a landlord to make the tenant pay to fix their property)(It is also illegal to rent condemned property). But that never stopped ntcc.
Well, this went on for some time, and as you can imagine, the electric bill was enormous. But the church refused to help in any way. Well, Mark couldn't pay the bill, and ended up moving to help in a church in Arizona.
So Wright immediately calls up Davis to complain about a "dead-beat" preacher who refuses to pay his electric bill!! How dare he! Davis immediately calls Trovato and ORDERS HIM to pay the bill (which was around $1000), or he would take away his minister's license. I don't remember the outcome, but I do know that Trovato had his license taken away. Why? Because he didn't pay a bill that wasn't his to begin with. If he sued the church he would have won.
I am happy to report that Mark Trovato and his family are no longer with NTCC!
AXP
Vic shared..."It was very uncomfortable to be placed in that position, but it did serve to alert me to their duplicitous ways. My boss rejoiced with me when I fired them."
We were forbidden from working on Saturday and Sunday. But when it came time to work for free for the Organization on Saturday, and even Sunday, it was suddenly okay.
I have worked innumerable Saturdays, and even Sundays, gratis for NTCC.
Gregory
CONDEMNED RENTAL PROPERTIES OWNED BY ntcc SLUM LORDS WHO REFUSE TO FIX THINGS THE LAW REQUIRES THE LANDLORD TO FIX... "WHAT A BLESSING"...
YOU HYPOCRITES WILL PAY.
They have more money than God, and they can't afford to fix THEIR rental properties?
AXP (another ex-preacher) said...
So Wright immediately calls up Davis to complain about a "dead-beat" preacher who refuses to pay his electric bill!!
??????????????????
I think it was Wright that didn't pay child support. What the !!!!
"I think it was Wright that didn't pay child support. What the !!!!"
There are too many people in NTCC(and other orgs) that don't pay child support!
...but as long as they get that tithe out on time they can continue being right with God.
Anon!
I think it was Wright that didn't pay child support.
Sassy says,
I always wondered if that was the REAL REASON why they put Wright on the board--to have an excuse to bail him out of his child support debt and keep him out of jail. Guess they figure they'll get their pound of blood out of him. Or maybe he has the dirt on them?
Sassy
Why would they put the wrights again in the phillipines. I know that she was sick with diabetes and the tom had other things going on. Maybe, they were disciplining them, that is why they were sent far away? Just so weird that they were sent over there when they are sick.
Wright, two daughters in, two daughters got out? tanya wright keys (george) and amber wright noetzelman (david). maybe his back child support payments were costing too much. you could be right. discipline.
from deb's blog a note from vic:
Perhaps RW lets them rot overseas because he doesn't want to pay out. All he has to do is stonewall them long enough, and eventually they'll get sick of it and leave the org, so he'll never have to give them what they've earned. Sounds like the "zero the escrow" scam behind the musical pastors routine here in the US.
........
Maybe that's why wrights are back in the P.I.
What about Wright's other daughter, Blossom? Did her older sisters convince her to avoid ntcc? What about deadbeat landlords? Maybe the Philippines is a way to avoid prosecution for other things we don't know about? Or Vic could be right. Just another ntcc scam to save a dime by letting people rot on a faraway island. Out of sight out of mind. Out of luck out of time. I've got yours. I'm keeping mine. Don't bother trying to get what we owe you. Guess you could say those eXrs told you.
Playing catch up...been doing a lot of reading here. And can I just say the words to the song I am about to post have helped me deal with the experience otherwise known as NTCC The song is called Once Again by Matt Redman.
"Jesus Christ, I think about your sacrifice, you became nothing born out to death, many times I've wondered at your gift of life, I'm in that place once again, I'm in that place once again, and once again I look upon the cross where you died, I'm humbled by your mercy and I'm broken inside, once again I thank you, once again I pour out my life. Now you are exalted to the highest place, king of the heavens where one day I'll bow, but for now I marvel at this saving grace, I'm full of praise once again, I'm full of praise once again. and once again I look upon the cross where you died, I'm humbled by your mercy and I'm broken inside, once again I thank you, once again I pour out my life. and once again I look upon the cross where you died, I'm humbled by your mercy and I'm broken inside, once again I thank you, once again I pour out my life. Thank you for the cross, thank you for the cross, thank you for the cross my friend."
If you haven't heard this song you need to. And if you have a prejudice against anything that isn't souther gospel I urge you to break that prejudice. I love southern gospel but I got real sick of it being in NTCC. And I have a real hard time listening to it now since my experience with NTCC. It just brings back some bad memories. I am sure a lot of people can relate!
God bless,
Angie
Totally agree with the Southern Gospel is not enjoyable to listen to.
Kind of like a person that goes through college and only eats beans and hotdogs. Once he has more money. Does not want to eat beans and hot dogs ever again.
All that was "allowed" to listen to was Southern Gospel. Some folks I believe did listen to other music. But the general vibe was S. Gospel was IT for accepted music to listen to.
Now that we are out. Can choose for ourselve's. I have not listened to S. Gospel since. Our collection is about to go in the Yardsale. Just collecting dust in our home! The music is ok,very repetitive and each song sounds about the same as the next one. No Orginality AT ALL!
Guess what folks still in ntcc. I am not going to hell listening to christian rap,rock,country,soul. ect. I know like many varitites of music venue's. Because guess what I CAN DO just like Mike K. does. I listen to concious and allow God to lead my choice's. NOT A MAN's OPINION's! Folks if Mike K. can let God guide his choice's. Why can't he guide mine. You don't need ntcc so called policies to keep you from going down a path of sin. Or from avoiding the appearance of evil. Between you and God that is ALL YOU NEED to guide your life and your choice's.
NO those men are not there to control your life because they care about your soul. AS IF! If they cared about souls. Why do they LIE about folks if they leave ntcc.
There favorite jargon,Oh I just saw that coming. Didn't you brother. Such and such and his talk and actions. Should have helped the brother out. Bunch of Crap!
If you leave ntcc. They will lie about you as well. But go ahead and leave. Join us,the one's that now allow God to lead our ENTIRE life!
CM
Jeff, I think your pictures are really funny, though I know that the reality is so much serious.
I wonder if anybody still has the letter that mk sent to all the pastors talking about the escrow account. I just remembered that when I read it, I was really taken aback because, the pastors had to take tithe of tithe. All in all, they would take 40% off the tithe that came to him and the tithe money in the sunday morning offerings and the church tithe. plus if the pastor worked, he had to pay tithe on that also, but that went directly to the org. My heart just sank knowing that this wasn't right. Something in me knew that. All I remember about this letter was that this money (escrow) was supposed to be there for the church in case that it needed repairs (extreme circumstances) or paying downpayment for another church, or for the changing of pastors (emergency only)
I have the letter. I forgot about this. I will scan it and post a link on Deb's blog.
Gregory
I wonder if anybody still has the letter that mk sent to all the pastors talking about the escrow account.--Anon
I'd love to see that written proof of ntcc's thieving ways! Jeff is right. The ntcc is a bunch of crooks. And the escrow scheme proves it.
Hi Idaho Angie!!!! Cool new pic!
I was just wondering if we would ever 'hear' from you again, and I'm not finding fault, I know you are busy!!!! lol
I read somewhere the Matt Redman lyrics. That is a great song, the Holy Ghost was just anointing it, you know? Sweet.
I thinky Angie's tenure with ntcc was not as long as some peoples'; and I think it is signifcant that she posts here to encourage others to leave ntcc or avoid it. Thank you, Angie for taking the time.
ntcc is so destructive and ungodly. They are, in my opinion, worse than blatant satan worshippers. With blatant satan worshippers you know what you are getting yourself into.
But ntcc is so slick and deceitful, wrapping up their cult culture in robes of religion. I hate to think of what they do to sincere Christians all for a few greedy power hungry despots to get rich and ruin lives.
Oh well. God is still good. And we can do our part to warn others.
Thanks again Angie for the song and other encouraging words.
Angela
Angela,
Yes I have been pretty busy. Well lately not as busy. I was laid off right before Christmas so I spent the last 2 months playing catch up.
And yes I was only with NTCC for 3 years. But when I think about it, if I had not been raised in a Christian home I probably would have stayed a lot longer. They are really good at hiding things until they want you to see them. I know there are real honest to God Christians within NTCC. But the bad ones sure outweigh the good ones.
Still even in 3 years I seen things that just made me wonder where God was in all of it. I mean nothing happens for no reason. What happened in my time in NTCC that will end up being a tool for God? You just never know. I've been through a lot of crap in my life. Being a Christian sure doesn't save you from crap. Though I really wish it did sometimes.
I was actually posting from Illinois the other day. I made a trip out there with my Dad to visit friends. We had a blast. In 2 weeks I am going to Monterrey Mexico to hang out with my husband at his new job there. Long story short we may have to move there. But so far all my research into the area points to good things. A friend of mine here in Idaho actually introduced me to a friend of hers that lives in Monterrey that works with children and is a missionary and we are going to hook up and meet while I am there. So ya never know what God has in store. This would seem like an awesome opportunity to get into the mission field as I have always wanted to do. I am also going there to check out the area because my husband will not move the entire family there if I don't like the place. If we do decide to move it won't be for a while yet. A friend of mine asked me if we moved there if I would blog about the experience. So there is that. We know a lot of people from mexico and they say we couldn't be moving to a more safer place. They all just say avoid Mexico City and the boarder towns.
Well I need to get going here. My Pastors wife is doing a class on the power of prayer that she asked me to help with and I gotta leave in about 20 minutes and I am still sitting here lol.
You all have a blessed day and remember don't let your bad experiences hinder you in your walk with God because that is what satan wants to happen. If you let it hinder you than Satan has already won.
My fav quote "I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't a God, and die to find out there is."
God bless,
Angie
I wanted to comment about gas and picking people up. While I was a church member I had a pretty large vehicle. Once I was blessed with this vehicle I was given the task of picking everyone that needed a ride to church up. I ended up spending about 50 dollars a week in gas. That may not sound bad but that was when gas was only one dollar a gallon! And being single only making 6 dollars an hour it was tough to get by. I ended up giving the car up and started riding my bike to work to get out of picking people up. Because if I would have said no to picking up people I would be on my way to hell right? Blessed that I am out and free!
How was that a blessing if you ended up riding your bike to work. Sounds like more ntcc bondage to me. They take advantage of people and say, If you love God; you won't mind. Slimey. God never used somebody without paying them for what they did. He is love and grace. ntcc does not know God. If they did, they couldn't use people the way they do.
Thanks bro.and sis Shunk.
I knew somebody out there had that letter that mck sent.
It was kind of weird now that I think about it how that rwd never really come out in a conference and gave mck the authority to control the org., he just kind of was there. He could say anything and do everything that he wanted. All I know is that mck probably will be put in charge instead of olson when the right time comes.
I remember that rwd gave in a conference the authority to olson, in front of all the people in attendance, to be the chairman of the board, but I don't remember anything like that being said by rwd to give mck any authority. Maybe I'm wrong, but he has become the go between in many things. He is like the spokesman of ntcc.
blovd
Angie was discussing the possibility of moving to Monterrey Mexico and said, this: "I am also going there to check out the area because my husband will not move the entire family there if I don't like the place."
I love that. And Angie would not have such freedom in the ntcc! In the ntcc a woman is only to be a flower, smell good and look pretty. And of course scrub the board members floors for them too. But her opinion would not count in ntcc.
Via con Dios, Angie!
Angela
From the original post, "The Old Bait And Switch"
On Deb Shunk's blog Kristofer Moore wrote...
I went to Graham, fixed the door, and thought of a low price for Gesang that wouldn't be too low for my boss. I said $150. I am pretty sure it was 2 springs I replaced. My boss, sometimes, would go down to $175 on a spring job, but basically that was supposed to be the price of ONE spring. I told Eli the price, and he said, "I don't think so, Brother Moore. We're not gonna do this unless it's gonna be a blessing to us, too." I just said, great. He's gonna get me in trouble with my boss. I just said, I don't care. I'll take the hit, and asked him how much he wanted to pay me. Just give me whatever you want. He said, how about I'll give you a hundred bucks.
..........
I wonder if this was the door jim l. johnson was working on when he got knocked off the ladder and broke his hip and arm?
kekel posted an article about that on his blog between Dec. 7th, 2009 and Jan. 15th, 2010.
According to kekel's blog that happened in johnson's shop and the door was a large one so the springs would be heavy duty and indeed dangerous to handle.
Perhaps Kristofer was already gone from ntcc when that happened to johnson. I suppose Kris left after the conference when he was assaulted for questioning rw davis about the starving girl in the Philippines.
Just wondering.
Ange
I haven't forgotten about the 'Escrow Explanation Letter' Rev. Kekel sent out. I also have a letter from NTCC, to the Korean Government, promising to be "...responsible for the financial support of Rev. and Mrs. G.T. Shunk during their stay in Korea to include all expenses that relate to their meals and lodging."
I would have posted a link to them already but my scanner is acting up. No worries, just the Devil fighting Gods program on these blogs. I'll get it by and by. Hopefully today.
Gregory
You know it's curious that now that the shunks are out how many info they have about the dealings of people that are in as "directors of servicemen's homes." The letter that he mentions about nttc having to support them financially, imagine that!
I wonder if you have to sign some kind of agreement before you go into a servicmen's home.
I remember one lady said that when the overseers would come they would check everything and one said that when ms davis entered her kitchen, the first thing she said was: "this floor looks terrible." the sister felt so ashamed that she hadn't had the time to take the old polish off and put new one on. Imagine that!
blovd
I got the files posted on Deb's Blog.
They are the first 2 links under "OFFICIAL NTCC DOCUMENT ARCHIVE".
This is on the left hand side at the bottom, right above "BLOG ARCHIVE' and "HIT COUNTER".
Enjoy,
Gregory
Sorry...right hand side vice left hand side.
Gregory,
Thanks for the documents. The whole escrow thing makes me sick. The ntcc is stealing the ministers income from them! "Period."
I've read your update on your profile. I'm afraid I still don't understand what you mean by "I have stayed in the “Lodge” a few times consecutively," but would like to know what you meant.
I'm amazed by all the work you accomplished for the ntcc. And I'm so glad you and Miss Deborah are out now. I don't know if that was a painful or difficult decision for the two of you; but I'm sure it was the right thing to do ;-)
Also, could someone please explain where or what the Bonco is? I think that's how it was spelled. I'm not familiar with that term. It sounds like a Tagalog word (?)... THANKS!!
Angela
Gregory,
Did the ntcc keep its word about supporting you in Korea or was that the usual, lie to the inspecting authority, "a wink is as good as a nod to a blind man" ntcc thing?
Angela
Angela, I think Bonco is the name of RW's private little subdivision/cash cow. I left before it got built, but Marc Perez drove me up there to see the fences.
"I haven't forgotten about the 'Escrow Explanation Letter' Rev. Kekel sent out."
This letter is interesting, and represents another change in the unchangeable "program of God." When I started with the org, it was an ironclad rule that, at least in a "civilian" church, ALL TITHES from members belonged to the pastor of that church. He was, naturally, expected to make sure that the church's bills were paid, but no one other than him controlled these funds. RW used to be very emphatic about the sacrosanct nature of the tithe; it belonged solely to the pastor. He used to say thet if the pastor chose to spend all the tithe on bubblegum, that was his business and the congregation had no say in the matter.
I guess the gumball fund is 40% deficient these days. This scheme reeks of potential fraud.
Angela said..."Gregory, Did the ntcc keep its word about supporting you in Korea or was that the usual, lie to the inspecting authority, "a wink is as good as a nod to a blind man" ntcc thing? Angela"
Angela,
Kind of...
Since we were in Korea Pastoring NTCC churches, the bills were paid by the tithe and offerings, and therefore by NTCC.
Before we arrived in Korea, Pastor Davis assured us this work was self-supporting, and I would be full time (we were moved from self-supporting work). When we arrived, we found this was not the case. So Deb and I had to get jobs (no problem, we both like to keep busy). This work had about $23 in the general fund when we assumed the Pastorate.
This being said, when I brought this to the attention of Pastor Davis and Rev. Olson (the costs exceeded the income), and when this "Letter of Support" was referenced, I was told by Rev. Olson that if the bills weren't paid we would be pulled from Korea with someone else taking our place. That this letter was just a formality to get us into the country, and that NTCC would not honor it (my own words). So we began paying the shortage out of our own pocket. Both Deb and I were then authorized by HQ to work in Korea.
We even asked (initially) HQ to pay for our trips to mandatory conference (at least for our tickets, since this was a requirement, and cost about $5000 twice per year), again referencing this “Letter of Support”. This was denied.
To go to Korea we are told to get a tourist visa, so we could get into the country. Even though we were going there specifically to pastor a church. NTCC didn’t want to mess with all the fees and paper work to get us into the country honestly (as preachers/missionaries).
We have a more detailed account of all this (and very much more) already written, which we will post on Deb’s Blog. Jeff, feel free to pull anything from Deb’s Blog to post on yours, and we will do the same.
Question: In the past NTCC has always made an issue of people posting anonymously, I wonder how they like the fact many more people are posting under their own name?
Gregory
Gregory,
Thanks for taking the time and answering. I can see you're a good man just by how honest you are in the answer.
I feel ntcc did not support you...
You supported them.
You worked, prayed, and won souls to God. He gave the increase.
ntcc lied to the Korean government about supporting you.
ntcc lied to the Korean government about your visa status.
olson lying and calling the paperwork a formality proves that he is a liar. That is sad, but not surprising:
IF A RULER HEARKEN UNTO LIES, ALL HIS SERVANTS 'ARE' WICKED. PROV.29V12
Were you and Miss Deborah ever given the missionary wages that you described earlier? Or did ntcc not pay you? I don't mean to pry. If you don't want to answer, I'll understand.
But I do believe ntcc uses the foreign mission field to wear down good Christians to get rid of them.
Anybody who wakes up and no longer wants to drink the kook aid is a threat to their money making scheme.
Anybody too popular with the people is also seen as a threat to their ability to turn the whole ball of money and power over to rw davis's grandson...
Just my opinions.
Angela
Question: In the past NTCC has always made an issue of people posting anonymously, I wonder how they like the fact many more people are posting under their own name?
--Gregory
The fact is they don't like anybody posting period. They just want us all to go away and move on ;-o
Angela
"Question: In the past NTCC has always made an issue of people posting anonymously, I wonder how they like the fact many more people are posting under their own name?"
And where are the NTCC apologists these days? Has the decree gone out that they are to stay out of these discussions, or has the truth got them so demoralized that they have nothing to say? I kind of miss their pathetic attempts to justify the unjustifiable, and often their demeanor proved the very points we are making about NTCC.
Hey, don't be afraid; come out and tell us how that NTCC is the God's last call to man before the Judgment, and that RW Davis is a bonafide apostle (like he claims).
Yeah, I see what you mean--it does look pretty silly in print.
"I've never missed God!"
"All I do is by the Holy Ghost!"
"I can't remember the last time I sinned!"
Gregory
I kind of miss their pathetic attempts to justify the unjustifiable, and often their demeanor proved the very points we are making about NTCC.--Vic
Vic I am speechless, no breath left after laughing out loud holding my sides from laughing! Ange
The story about Luna is sad, angela.
[...]
I can't imagine this kind of treatment from a christian to another christian, specially one who is suppossed to be your pastor.--blovd
+++++++++++++++++++
That is the point we are trying to make here. Christians don't abuse and use others. Christians demonstrate the love of Christ.
ntcc 'leaders' have a proven track record of being abusive tyrants who take advantage of Christians.
ntcc 'preachers' have a proven track record of abusing their pulpit position to slander others, and threaten people with eternal damnation for things that are not even sin--like forcing pregnant women to go 'soul-winning' or berating pregnant women for "hindering the work of God"-rw davis's words...
ntcc is a demonic, abusive, destructive cult.
Just my opinion based on years of observation, first-hand experience and the thousands of testimonies on these blogs and factnet.
Angela
Anonymous said...
This thread brings up another point-- that you have to use your OWN money for church-related supplies. I've talked to a number of women who said if they needed any supplies for children's church they had to pay for it THEMSELF! Ntcc wouldn't pay for anything. It is like that for anything you do. You have to spend YOUR money (which most of us didn't have any). It reminds me of the Pharoah telling the Israelites that they need to make HIS bricks with their OWN straw. Oh, and by the way, your quota has just been increased!
February 18, 2010 9:00 AM
worth repeating
Angela said..."Were you and Miss Deborah ever given the missionary wages that you described earlier? Or did ntcc not pay you? I don't mean to pry. If you don't want to answer, I'll understand."
NTCC does not consider the Director's of Servicemen's Homes, serving overseas, as missionaries (even though we are also trying to reach the nationals). So the $200 saved for 'real' missionaries (above their 'salary') is not authorized.
Germany, Okinawa, Korea, Guam, and England (and the Philippines and Panama, when we still had troops there) are all considered non-missionary works by NTCC.
We were 'authorized' to received an "expense reimbursement and offering" of $150 per week (not each, this was for the both of us), out of our own churches funds. This never came close to covering our organizationally mandated expenses, but it was better than nothing.
Although, our first 4 years in Korea we were not able to take our 'expense reimbursement', as the church couldn't afford it.
This is also NTCC 'policy'...church bills, conferences, fellowship meetings, executive wardrobe, etc. first, preacher and family last. During our time in Korea we never received any money from Washington.
I do remember HQ paying (they did this on their own, we didn't ask this time) for our tickets to conference 1 time. That is 1 time out of about 19 times (3 conferences per year, consisting of 1 Asian and 2 in Missouri)
Deborah and I always had to work during the 8 years we were in Korea, just to do all the things HQ required of us. Savings were never an option.
Gregory
TO THE SHUNKS,
May God please bless all your works of love.
May He please bless every past sacrifice and every current attempt to help others.
May He shower you with His warm compassionate grace to exceed every need.
May He add thousand fold for the things you have already suffered.
In Jesus name we pray.
Not considered missionary works?!!! Where then did all that money we gave for years go? We gave money every month that was suppose to go to support those missionarys!!!!!!!! Somebody tell me where the money went! We paid $15 a month for around 15 years. It was for three different works.
Never Harm,
The money only goes to the Philippines and Panama. Again, because these are the only works NTCC considers missionary works.
Although, the "World Missions Director" needs a salary for managing NTCC's four 'real' missionary works (3 in the Philippines, and 1 in Panama), and all the additional growth.
This growth is remarkable when the fact that NTCC has been sponsoring missionaries for over 40 years is considered.
Then there is the travel expense of the Missions Director's travel around the country to drum up additional funds.
Maybe the "World Missions Fund" also funds Pastor Davis' annual trips to Korea and the Philippines.
Don't become unhinged Never Harm, there is a reasonable explanation.
Gregory
...and who is the "world missions director"?? please tell me its not Kekel!
I always found it remarkable that the "World Missions Director" would come to preach at the local church and he would never mention anything about "World Missions".
He would just preach some kind of revival message, make a generic altar call, etc, etc.
Then on the last day of his "revival" he would pass out the pledge slips for "World Missions"
That time would be the only time he even said Anything about Missions but it was only a solicitation for pledges.
I often wondered what kind of mission works were active and
I was always curious about what was happening in the other countries, but was too timid to ask after the service in the "fellowship"
So there is only 4 active missionary works? Wow?!!!
You know the more and more that the shunks explain, the more and more it makes me mad. Why? you ask.
Because these people gave so much and I'm not just talking about the shunks but the rest that are still in like rodrigues, currently in panama, the reids now in guam, the mcdonalds, who were just in graham and now are in korea starting something, and the annises, and others that I can't even remember now but you get the jest of all these people, they are for some reason so brain-washed or something because you get treated like less than a peon and for all the years that we have been going to the coferences, rwd would always make fun of these same people that would send the gi's to his bible school. How many times rwd would make fun of the servicemen's home wives, that they were lazy, that they didn't know how to cook. He said that he wouldn't even eat some of the slopp that these wives served the soldiers, and on and on and on.
He said that he ate better in a greasy spoon than in these servicemen's homes. I can go on but you get the drift of the terrible ways rwd treated this missionaries and directors.
Never did I ever hear him say anything good about any of these people. Look at Gandy, he is huge, I'm affraid that he is going to have a heart attack. I don't know why he is so big. It might be the stress. rwd treats him so badly ordering him here and there. Just pathetic.
I'm glad for you all that have little by little brought to us the true stories.People are starting to not be affraid anymore.
blovd
Another thing was that if you were nicely dressed or were riding a nice car you would have to pay in the conference because than you were just for material things.
"I never was in the work of god for the money"
"I rather be sitting in a wooden crate............."
It seemed that when somebody was being blessed, he just couldn't stand it. Look at mr. jones, he had a good job up there in oregon, he was even able to fly a small plane to go to the conferences but there was rwd telling him that he needed to let all of that go because he was going to become an overseer. I wonder what they have now. Just a little title.
I remember sis. johnson telling us that the reason that they didn't want to own anything through the org was because they didn't want to put up with the rules and regulations that rwd puts on all those things he gives you. She said that they rather pay a little more but it was theirs to do with it what they wished, and didn't have to be asking rwd permission for anything, the same with their house. I hope that this still true
for them since I heard that he is injured really bad.
I hope his daughters can take care of him now, if rwd lets them.
those of us that gave and gave will never see our money again., But for you on ntcc. You know no the truth. There is ONLY FOUR active missionary works. I hope you make sure your only paying your pledge for those works and those works ONLY!
CM
Also, Puerto Rico is not considered a missionary work either. I happen to know that the minister and his wife that are their now used $14,000 of their OWN money to start a church there. And if Rev. Rameriz is reading this-- I want you to know that RW Davis really trashed you and your wife to some of these people and said you were a real loser in Puerto Rico, because you dared ask for help while struggling down there. You serve Davis and behind your back he despises you.
PRIORITIES--MONEY FIRST, KIDS SAFETY LAST...
****PART ONE:****
AXP wrote a couple of posts about the slum lords who run ntcc abusing pastoral authority to force Christians into renting slum properties from them.
These condemned buildings owned by ntcc 'leaders' in dangerous neighbourhoods are foisted off on Christians working for the man in the ntcc borg.
But when the furnace on one place was broken driving up the utility bill and ntcc ordered that tenant to move to a different state, the tenant was unable to pay the bill.
What was ntcc's response?
"So Wright immediately calls up Davis to complain about a "dead-beat" preacher who refuses to pay his electric bill!! How dare he! Davis immediately calls Trovato and ORDERS HIM to pay the bill (which was around $1000), or he would take away his minister's license. I don't remember the outcome, but I do know that Trovato had his license taken away. Why? Because he didn't pay a bill that wasn't his to begin with. If he sued the church he would have won."--AXP
****PART TWO:****
On other blog threads much discussion has taken place exposing the facts regarding steave dorsie slapping kids:
1) steave dorsie slapped kids
2) Three ntcc preachers reported this fact to ntcc's CEO joe olson.
3) ntcc allowed steave dorsie to remain in a postition of trust (pastor of a ntcc church) as a "Minister In Good Standing" in the ntcc.
****CONCLUSION****
1) You can slap all the kids you want in the ntcc and their General Board and CEO will let you keep your minister's license.
2) But don't you dare touch their god of money or you will lose your minister's license.
Folks, don't get mad at me for writing this junk. Get mad at the ones who live this junk and let little kids get slapped around by some phony preacher with a ntcc minister's license in his wallet.
BTW
What's in YOUR wallet?
Is there such as thing as guilt by association? Complicit. Partaker in other men's sins?
And not ignorantly. These guys KNEW what was going on but let dorsie keep his minister's license....
But the guy who had a utility bill because the ntcc landlord refused to obey the law lost his minister's license....
Folks, there is something SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE!!!
Whom do you serve?
Sassy
You are right sassy, and am glad that a few people still try to bring out the facts that people has kept secret for all these years. It may sound a little bit weird but I never knew that those rooms to the right on the tabernacle in the campground were a "his and hers" bathrooms! I always wondered that they might be like closets to put stuff, like microphones or the like but when deb said that they were restrooms for the davises, I couldn't believe it, because if they could keep such insignificant info secret, unless of course you are part of the "in" group, then I can't imagine the relevant info like dorsie slapping kids, or ministers having affairs, etc. I can only say: wow!
To the people that are out there thinking that this blog is just a gossip blog, it's not.
It is about exposing the truth and bringing out the facts of what transpires behind closed doors.
I know that many ministers that are out there in the field don't have any idea of what goes on in graham unless they have friends that will tell them.
I remember when I first started reading, I was just overwhelmed because I couldn't face the truth.
People don't want to know things because then they will have to make a decision and they rather stay in the dark. Sometimes the truth hurts but you have to face it and act accordingly.
We were duped for a long long time and that's the truth.
blovd
Blogging the Truth.
To the people that are out there thinking that this blog is just a gossip blog, it's not.
It is about exposing the truth and bringing out the facts of what transpires behind closed doors. ...
I never knew that those rooms to the right on the tabernacle in the campground were a "his and hers" bathrooms! ...
when deb said that they were restrooms for the davises, I couldn't believe it, because
if they could keep such insignificant info secret, unless of course you are part of the "in" group,
then I can't imagine the relevant info like dorsie slapping kids,
or ministers having affairs, etc. I can only say: wow! blovd (revised)
"wow!" indeed!
Wonder what other closed doors have skeletons behind them in the ntcc?
Also, Puerto Rico is not considered a missionary work either. anon
? How is it that Puerto Rico is not considered a missionary work? ? ?
Loosen the death grip you have on those old money bags, ntcc.
Your really are reminding us of judas iscariot!
>>"Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
>> Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
>>This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein."<<John 12.4-6
money, money, money, money...
Gregory said...
Before this, I thought these rooms were to count money in...
Vic Johanson said...
Yeah, I've been in the money-counting room in Graham; it's quite a sight. At some point, they started paying teachers $25/week per class. Paul Jordan or one of the other office drones would inform us to go there after service and get paid. There would be two or three guys sitting around a card table that was literally overflowing with cash. It looked like something you'd expect in the back room of a whorehouse or a gambling den--gangsters counting their illicit gains. They would hand over our pay (in cash, naturally).
It gave me some insight into the kind of cash flow they have; those giant piles of money, accumulated every time the church doors were open, were only a fraction of the total take.
But if you're a missionary, don't exepect more than a pittance to help you do God's work. More than that might interfere with the mansion and limousine program for the "men of GAWD." February 28, 2010 4:08 PM
Blogger DS or GS said...
Did you have to sign a receipt? If not... Gregory February 28, 2010 5:27 PM
Vic Johanson said...
We did have to sign for the money, but we never got any kind of pay stub or 1099; I could never prove they gave me a dime. February 28, 2010 6:16 PM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Those comments were on the thread titled "The Submissive Woman" but they seem relevant to this thread.
Can you here the Pink Floyd song with the Till working?
Money, get away
Get a good job with more pay and your O.K.
Money it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team
Money get back
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off my stack.
Money it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullsh-t
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet
Money it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're
giving none away... Money Pink Floyd
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL
EVIL
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
They're not giving none away, not to
starving girls in the Philippines or
missionaries or
orphans or
widows or
yours or
to you
JUST
THEM
ONLY
THEM
NOT
YOU
OH
OH
!
Click on the blogger name "Tinker" for a YouTube video of Pink Floyd's song Money.
rated "R" for "REAL"
and for brief scenes
of nudity (women's buns a couple times)
expletive imagery (flying "the bird")
graphic 9/11 images
nuclear chimps
other images
that will
make you
PRAY!!!
PHOTON we could use your expert photo-shopping skills to super-impose rwd's face over Trump's in the vid scene where The Don is holding up his book and in the scene where there is the Pope in Royal Robes...
How fitting!
DS or GS said...
Angela said..."Were you and Miss Deborah ever given the missionary wages that you described earlier? Or did ntcc not pay you? I don't mean to pry. If you don't want to answer, I'll understand."
NTCC does not consider the Director's of Servicemen's Homes, serving overseas, as missionaries (even though we are also trying to reach the nationals). So the $200 saved for 'real' missionaries (above their 'salary') is not authorized.
Germany, Okinawa, Korea, Guam, and England (and the Philippines and Panama, when we still had troops there) are all considered non-missionary works by NTCC.
We were 'authorized' to received an "expense reimbursement and offering" of $150 per week (not each, this was for the both of us), out of our own churches funds. This never came close to covering our organizationally mandated expenses, but it was better than nothing.
Although, our first 4 years in Korea we were not able to take our 'expense reimbursement', as the church couldn't afford it.
This is also NTCC 'policy'...church bills, conferences, fellowship meetings, executive wardrobe, etc. first, preacher and family last. During our time in Korea we never received any money from Washington.
I do remember HQ paying (they did this on their own, we didn't ask this time) for our tickets to conference 1 time. That is 1 time out of about 19 times (3 conferences per year, consisting of 1 Asian and 2 in Missouri)
Deborah and I always had to work during the 8 years we were in Korea, just to do all the things HQ required of us. Savings were never an option.
Gregory
February 26, 2010 1:42 PM
re-posted by Angela to facilitate further discussion...
NTCC does not consider the Director's of Servicemen's Homes, serving overseas, as missionaries (even though we are also trying to reach the nationals). So the $200 saved for 'real' missionaries (above their 'salary') is not authorized.-Gregory
What???
Can I read that again and say
What???
This single comment proves how ntcc views G.I.s as nothing more than
BIG FAT PORK BARRELS...
ntcc is saying, Hey, you've got that gold mine of G.I.s wallets to plunder, so we, ntcc, as an organization, a "BUSINESS" won't pay you the customary missionary wages even though you are
YOU ARE
*on a foreign field
*sacrificing family time
*susceptible to health issues incumbent with missionary work
*going to have to attend three ntcc mandated conferences per year on your own dime
*still reaching out to foreign nationals / indigenous populace of the host country
*MISSIONARIES
Waahhll, rdub drawls, you've got all those G.I.s thar', why should ntcc dip into its over-stuffed coffers to ease your pain and suffering?
So in America it is a sin for an ntcc married woman to work because she is supposed to be a keeper at home, not prostituted out (rdub's description of a working married woman) on a job.
But in another country, say Korea, the immutable laws of God and the Holy Ghost -- whom r.w. davis claims to never miss -- those immutable laws are now defunct. Go ahead, Sista, Gawd won't mind if you prostitute yourself, er, work on a job. You're a missionary, er, worker on a foreign field...
I could go on and on about this. My head is shaking back and forth and nodding up and down as I type and consider the double-standard hypocrisy and coveteous nature in the ntcc.
Bobble-head like the ntcc shifting-sand doctrines and 'policies'--more jargon!...
Angela
Grrrr... Makes my blood boil, just thinkin' about the way they treat people in the ntcc...
Yep. I'm just about as hot under my flea collar as any dog can stand! You know what those white coals look like in a fire? See how they look all cool an' all on the outside? But inside, they's just FLAMIN' HOT!
Well, that's how I feel right about now. Yes Sir. Yes Ma'am. Red Hot!
Why, most folks treat their dogs better than that! I should know.
Al "Mad Dog" Falfa
You do not count as REAL missionaries... Silly peons, those missionary funds are for us ntcc 'leaders' (Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids). Now back away from the missionary funds, and nobody gets hurt.--Ange
Germany, Okinawa, Korea, Guam, and England (and the Philippines and Panama, when we still had troops there) are all considered non-missionary works by NTCC.-Gregory
So are we to understand that not only have the Shunks gone through this meat-grinder work for ntcc, but also all our friends in these other countries are being treated the same way by ntcc? Right?
Matt and Cindy Webster in Germany.
Terra and Curtis Annis in Okinawa.
John and Becky Rodrigues in Guam.
Please forgive any spelling errors. And those are just some I remember off the top of my head. But more are being treated the same way by ntcc. Or worse.
How about the Ramirez's in Puerto Rico who used $14,000 of their own money to build the work while davis trashes them, according to what I read on another blog thread.
How about the Hayes who laboured in Puerto Rico for ntcc; but when they came back stateside and needed help all ntcc could do for them was SAY they were praying for them and then give them a bag of USED towels and sheets with a hole in them???
I can imagine tanya and verna going up to Casey and telling him, "Oh, Casey, WE APPRECIATE YOU!" gush gush "WE ARE PRAYING FOR YOU."
Talk is cheap.
You lying hypocrites.
You are not PRAYING FOR them.
You are PREYING UPON them.
There is a big difference.
You lying hypocrites.
Not that you care.
But I PRAY
THE LORD SEES IT
AND REQUIRES IT OF YOU!
"Your Friend" Angela
P.S. Mad Dog, hold me back! I might do or say something I regret!
Nothin' doin', Ange.
I just did a "search this blog" search on Casey Hayes and read some of his story:
24 years faithful service to ntcc
the drummer for years in Graham
teacher in the Graham Bible Seminary
And tanya kekel gives him a bag of used sheets and towels with a hole in 'em.
Me holdin' you back? Ange, that would be like the tail waggin' the dog. Ain't gonna happen. Have at 'em. They got it comin' to 'em.
And if you, a meek woman, and me, a mangy mutt are this mad, just think what God is fixin' to do...
"Mad Dog" Al
How long, O Lord, wilt thou look on... Habakkuk 1v1-4
1] THE BURDEN WHICH HABAKKUK THE PROPHET DID SEE.
2] O LORD, HOW LONG SHALL I CRY, AND THOU WILT NOT HEAR! 'EVEN' CRY OUT UNTO THEE 'OF' VIOLENCE, AND THOU WILT NOT SAVE!
3] WHY DOST THOU SHEW ME INIQUITY, AND CAUSE 'ME' TO BEHOLD GRIEVANCE? FOR SPOILING AND VIOLENCE 'ARE' BEFORE ME: AND THERE ARE 'THAT' RAISE UP STRIFE AND CONTENTION.
4] THEREFORE THE LAW IS SLACKED, AND JUDGMENT DOTH NEVER GO FORTH: FOR THE WICKED DOTH COMPASS ABOUT THE RIGHTEOUS; THEREFORE WRONG JUDGMENT PROCEEDETH.
And then the answer from God:
Habakkuk 1v5:
5] BEHOLD YE AMONG THE HEATHEN, AND REGARD, AND WONDER MARVELOUSLY: FOR 'I' WILL WORK A WORK IN YOUR DAYS, 'WHICH' YE WILL NOT BELIEVE, THOUGH IT BE TOLD 'YOU'.
In ntcc in one of olson's classes he was teaching about a former holiness preacher who left the Lord.
When that man died the room he was in was soaked in blood and viscera. The intimation was that demons had shredded this poor man that had left the Lord, sold out to compromise.
Then the point was made, God had to do it before; He could do it again.
Do what? START OVER.
Angela
Starting over, the painful process taking out the bad to bring in the good to fulfill God's will...
THE HEART OF GOD:
FOR THE LORD IS [...] LONG-SUFFERING TO US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. II_PETER_3V9 (partial)
God does not want to lose anyone. but if people insist on leaving Him, He will START OVER by taking out the bad and putting in the new so His will may be accomplished:
PHASE ONE: OUT WITH THE BAD:
It is a painful process described in the book of Leviticus 14v40-44 & 45 and broken down here into four steps:
STEP I] CLEANSING AND SEPARATION:
40] THEN THE PRIEST SHALL COMMAND THAT THEY TAKE AWAY THE STONES IN WHICH THE PLAGUE 'IS', AND THEY SHALL CAST THEM INTO AN UNCLEAN PLACE WITHOUT THE CITY:
41] AND HE SHALL CAUSE THE HOUSE TO BE SCRAPED WITHIN AROUND ABOUT, AND THEY SHALL POUR OUT THE DUST THAT THEY SCRAPE OFF WITHOUT THE CITY INTO AN UNCLEAN PLACE:
STEP II] REPLACEMENT & SEALING
42] AND THEY SHALL TAKE OTHER STONES, AND PUT 'THEM' IN THE PLACE OF THOSE STONES; AND HE SHALL TAKE OTHER MORTER, AND SHALL PLAISTER THE HOUSE.
43] AND IF THE PLAGUE COME AGAIN, AND BREAK OUT IN THE HOUSE, AFTER THAT HE HATH TAKEN AWAY THE STONES, AND AFTER HE HATH SCRAPED THE HOUSE, AND AFTER IT IS PLAISTERED;
III] INSPECTION & REJECTION
44] THEN THE PRIEST SHALL COME AND LOOK, AND, BEHOLD, 'IF' THE PLAGUE BE SPREAD IN THE HOUSE, IT 'IS' A FRETTING LEPROSY IN THE HOUSE: IT 'IS' UNCLEAN.
IV] UTTER DESTRUCTION
45] AND HE SHALL BREAK DOWN THE HOUSE, THE STONES OF IT, AND THE TIMBER THEREOF, AND ALL THE MORTER OF THE HOUSE; AND HE SHALL CARRY 'THEM' FORTH OUT OF THE CITY INTO AN UNCLEAN PLACE.
to be continued...
Angela
Starting over, out with the bad so the good can go in:
LUKE 20v15(p) & v19
...WHAT THEREFORE SHALL THE LORD OF THE VINEYARD DO UNTO THEM:
HE SHALL COME AND DESTROY THESE HUSBANDMEN, AND SHALL GIVE THE VINEYARD TO OTHERS. And when they heard 'it', they said, God forbid.
And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
Jesus was letting THOSE HYPOCRITES KNOW that He was going to replace them with people who would serve Him.
They knew. But did not repent.
Very sad.
Angela
Starting over, not letting others serve God, even though you don't serve God...
BUT WOE UNTO YOU, SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, HYPOCRITES! FOR YE SHUT UP THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN: FOR YE NEITHER GO IN 'YOURSELVES', NEITHER SUFFER YE THEM THAT ARE ENTERING TO GO IN.
And what will ye do in the end thereof???
Angela
Starting over, the righteous enter and the remnant take root and bear fruit...
ISAIAH 26V2:
OPEN YE THE GATES, THAT THE RIGHTEOUS NATION WHICH KEEPETH THE TRUTH MAY ENTER IN.
The Remnant Escape, Take Rood, and Bear Fruit:
ISAIAH 37V31 & V32:
AND THE REMNANT THAT IS ESCAPED OF THE HOUSE OF JUDAH SHALL AGAIN TAKE ROOT DOWNWARD, AND BEAR FRUIT UPWARD:
FOR OUT OF JERUSALEM SHALL GO FORTH A REMNANT, AND THEY THAT ESCAPE OUT OF MOUNT ZION: THE ZEAL OF THE LORD OF HOSTS SHALL DO THIS.
It wasn't that ntcc never walked with God. The problem is that they have turned their backs on God.
But not ALL of them. God always has a remnant He sends out of any over-throw.
And those who escape ntcc WILL TAKE ROOT AND BEAR FRUIT.
Will YOU be one of His remnant?
Angela
I wouldn't want to be around when the judgment falls on ntcc! zeow & zikes!
Shaky aka Zeek
This "Angela" or "Ange" character sounds wound-up!
What's with the lizards?
Crooks and Swindlers--Sin the ntcc way...
Vic said...
I got them a good price, and they were satisfied with the quality of the work, but as soon as they got the bill, they were grumbling and murmuring about how costly it was, trying to get me to chisel my boss (the same Christian boss who had donated hundreds of dollars worth of paper for NTCC's own print shop) for a bigger discount.--Vic
Ange says,
Yeah, ntcc cadre are the biggest murmurers and complainers when it comes to parting them from their god of cold hard cash.
And then they who run ntcc totally forget that this boss of Vic's has donated hundreds of dollars of paper to them even though ntcc is setting up a business that eats into his market!
That boss showed true Christian character, unlike the ntcc swindlers and cheapskates. -- Ange
Kristofer said...
I went to Graham, fixed the door, and thought of a low price for Gesang that wouldn't be too low for my boss. I said $150. I am pretty sure it was 2 springs I replaced. My boss, sometimes, would go down to $175 on a spring job, but basically that was supposed to be the price of ONE spring. I told Eli the price, and he said, "I don't think so, Brother Moore. We're not gonna do this unless it's gonna be a blessing to us, too." I just said, great. He's gonna get me in trouble with my boss. I just said, I don't care. I'll take the hit, and asked him how much he wanted to pay me. Just give me whatever you want. He said, how about I'll give you a hundred bucks.--Kristofer Moore's testimony about eli gesang swindling him and his boss "in the name of the Lord".
Ange says,
That is typical of gesang who no doubt learned it from davis, to try to get blood from a turnip and squeeze a brother for even more.
Well gableshya and your swindling lizard gizzard.
Frauds and cheats. Cheap skates.
Misleading a brother in the name of the Lord. You fraud, eli. -- Ange
Jeff said...
What a bunch of crooks. ... I guess RWD taught the NTCC leadership not to exercise honor or good character. -- Jeff
Ange says,
What a bunch of crooked hypocrites they are that run the ntcc. They try to swindle everyone in the name of the Lord, even if it destroys the testimony of some hard working and ethical Christian in the process.
And yes, r.w. davis is the driving force behind all these unethical and sinful practices. He is the BOSS of all things ntcc.
Truly mammon is rdub's god and thus the god of ntcc.
Ange
Poor Mouths, Mammon, and Nooses -- Sin the ntcc way...
Yeah, ntcc cadre are the biggest murmurers and complainers when it comes to parting them from their god of cold hard cash.
And they have the nerve to accuse workers on their measly payroll of being "poor-mouths" when that just isn't so. Like verna tried to lay on me one time at the Lodge.
I knew the davis's were coming in for yet another vacation / visit at the Lodge so I went to the store.. Couldn't have the 'man of Gawd' eating that hog swill of ramen noodles which was all davis's workers could afford on a daily basis.
Oh, no. It had to be the best for the 'man of Gawd'... So I requested the best cut of pork from the local butcher. Couldn't get something that we workers enjoy eating. Has to be pork for the 'man of Gawd'.
Well, they say you are what you eat.
So, it is no shock pig is davis's favorite meat!!
Anyway I was discussing this request that I had made of the butcher with verna. And she totally got the facts all wrong and turned around in her screwy squirrelly brain and accused me of being a poor mouth when that was not the case EVER.
And what's worse is you know once something is stuck in her sick and twisted mind, that's all that gossiping backbiter is going to remember and talk about wherever she goes.
But I knew better than to try more than once to correct this insecure proud deviant who calls herself a pastor's wife. She would not abide it but view it as an attack on her insecure stature. What a flake. And a liar.
Fabricating and changing what I had
said and putting her false spin on it.
And not even allowing me to discuss it with her as any rational human being would allow.
She just kept shaking her ugly wig bedecked head, saying, "No, no, no, Poor Mouth!" like a babbling fool and wouldn't even LISTEN!
Flakey!
Well, I bet they are 'listening' now!
Ha! Enjoy the read, you hypocrites.
Here's the facts. And don't you forget that Jack!
I'm not a poor mouth.
And maybe if r.w. davis didn't worship mammon, he would grow a heart and pay HIS workers a decent wage and benefits like
"SINNERS"
do. Lying conniving manipulator!
Who knows, if r.w. davis were a
Christian, which he can't be, living a lie as he does.... But if he were a Christian, he would obey the laws of the land and even provide safety equipment for HIS workers like OSHA requires. But noooooo.
r.w. davis is a hypocrite with a handy rope to give you to go hang yourself with; just put it around your neck.
Well, may God render unto every man
according to his words and works!!!
Ange
I guess, mUck that would be GHYS...
Oh, and just in case I've offended somebody's genteel insensibilities by being real, might I say that I believe God Himself would behave this way:
With the froward I will shew myself froward...
For years people have been kow-towing to davis and his cronies, afraid of men.
Fear God, not man.
Angela
Couldn't have the 'man of Gawd' eating that hog swill of ramen noodles which was all davis's workers could afford on a daily basis
Back to the slave mentality. Got to keep the workers in there place. The white folks in the big house(lodge) get all the good food. Any scraps leftover,theh workers can eat,or go in the fields after it has been harvested. Find something to eat!(Ramen,nasty hot dogs,teeth rotting cool-aid)
CM
Yeah, ntcc cadre are the biggest murmurers and complainers when it comes to parting them from their god of cold hard cash. ... Ange
TC says,
PREACH!
Lurch
Well, they say you are what you eat.
So, it is no shock pig is davis's favorite meat!! ** Ange
Zeek says,
Zikes and zeow!
I like steak. Wombat steak that is. And gnat larvae. It is Chameleon caviar! Only the best for us Liturgical Lizard Dippers (LLDs).
Oh, but if Hunter O is comin' over, you better have T-bone for the Big HO.
And Gevalia coffee; none of that pine-bark stuff!
Zeek aka Shaky
I have bought Gevalia coffee. It is SOO not worth the MONEY to buy that coffee in the mail.
drank Starbucks that I can buy at the grocery store aile. That is much better Then Gevalia.
Dunkin donuts or Tim Hortons is MUCH,MUCH better then Gevalia.
It is ALL for looks. With there gay pinky up in the air as they drink there Gevalia coffee. As Mike K. PRETEND that he knows so much about coffee. how to brew coffee,store coffee,make the coffee in his expensive coffee machine.
I got a Mr. Coffee that does the SAME job!
folks one of the best thing about leaving ntcc is? You no longer idolize Mike K,Tanya,ect. You don't look at how they live and want that life.
Because guess what,there life is VERY SHALLOW! No substance AT ALL! All about what curtains they have,look at my baby grande piano,my fancy car,my son goes to this school. Talk about full of VAIN and PRIDE!
My life now after leaving ntcc is REAL! I have a real relationship with God. I have REAL friends. I have Real hobbies. I have a REAL relationship with my hubby and kids. I have Real time to enjoy life that God gave me to enjoy.
Take a REAL look at Mike and Tanya if your still stuck in ntcc! Do there live's look that wonderful. Or is it because ntcc does make it that minister's are dirt poor. That the fancy life that Mike K. likes to portray looks much better then the Kook store/food bank life your living!
Then Leave ntcc. God is outside of ntcc. Actually I don't think God is in ntcc AT ALL! Will be so much more blessed once you step away from ntcc. Amazing how God can use you. WITHOUT door knocking!LOL
CM
Then Leave ntcc. God is outside of ntcc. Actually I don't think God is in ntcc AT ALL! Will be so much more blessed once you step away from ntcc. Amazing how God can use you. WITHOUT door knocking!LOL
CM
TC says,
*******************************PREACH!
"casey got a bag of used sheets with a hole in it"
It even sounds funny unless you were the recipient of such stuff.
Specially when you just came from a foreign country where you used your last dime and were brought back under the title of "didn't do anything for god there"
All I can say is that thank god casey's wife didn't get a lightly used bra.
xo
wouldn't put it past them, given someone a lightly used bra or selling them a lightly used teddy nightgown...
After Leaving ntcc. Moved to be closer to family. We sold alot of our stuff to get there.
Family gave us furniture,rugs,lamps,pictures....
When we left WA to head out into a new work. What did ntcc send us off with? Travel money,anything??? hear the crickets.... Nothing. They gave a hug,good bye. And that was it!
Then once you get to the work. Your in a city,don't know a living soul. Get there to find a job,a place to live. With no help from ntcc.
So folks that are still in. Why do you think your part of a "team". that ntcc leaders are on your side. Or that they love and care about you.
We had our vechile repocessed,almost was homeless. Family helped us,not ntcc. When it gets hairy and you really need help. Ntcc will NOT be there for you.
You will hear,your not a leader,your spending to much money(AS IF),not working enough....Blah,blah,blah! There rehetoric jargon to get the heat off them. And try and BLAME the minister they sent into the city with NO HELP from the Organization that sent them!
CM
I would hope that the recipient of such things would come forward to say that no, they never received tk's lightly used bras or nighties.
like CM would say "as if"
A) Anonymous Anonymous said...
wouldn't put it past them, given someone a lightly used bra or selling them a lightly used teddy nightgown...
March 24, 2010 7:24 PM
B) Anonymous Anonymous said...
I would hope that the recipient of such things would come forward to say that no, they never received tk's lightly used bras or nighties.
like CM would say "as if"
March 26, 2010 1:21 PM
....................................
Not sure if the second anonymous poster was saying that something like that could or would never happen in ntcc; but it does.
I was at a small garage sale and Lorrie DiFrancesco had a lightly used teddy for sale.
Casey Hayes did receive a bag of used sheets and towels with a hole in them from Tanya Tanya Maxamillia Reynolds Davis Kekel Jingle Heimer Schmit. She and Verna made it a point to tell Casey, "I appreciate you." and "I am praying for you."
HUH?
24 years of service, sacrifice, and deprivation is rewarded with trite phrases, worn out smiles, and a bag of old used towels and sheets with a hole in them?
Keep your appreciation, slogans, so-called prayers, towels, teddies, sheets, and other junk to yourselves!
They are all, like you, quite useless.
Click blogger name to see how the other half (kekel) lives...
thanks Used Junk post.
I really was unsure if this person was being postive or negative on my post.
My post was tongue and Cheek! ntcc and all of the SO CALLED leaders stick you out in a work. With NO HELP to get there, NO HELP once you get there AND NO HELP if you do need to fold and get out of the work!
This does need to be said many times. I have since told folks that are not in the ntcc fog about this happening. And all that I tell are in shock. That a so called church would do that to there workers!
If it is a business. A worker usually gets travel expenses paid,or tax deductable travel expenses. Not ntcc. We paid for our rental truck,which many could not afford doing. Got to a city,we knew nothing about. Found a place and a job. Thought neither of them were good choices. We have to make them quick and get going with life. Or we would SINK fast!
CM
CM,
No problem. Here's another pic of a Mercedes convertible since Casey saw M. C. Kekel driving one of those. It's a 2006 model since Casey left in '06 and said Kekel's car was new.
Casey,
You obviously misunderstood the intended purpose for those used towels and sheets.
You were supposed to wash and wax the Kekel Luxury & Sports Car Collection with those used sheets and towels.
THEN God would "bleshya" for it.
Yeah, right!
New pic when you click.
Also check out this one:
http://www.rplrags.com/Images/wiping_rags3.gif
Fyi blossom was not wrights kid
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