There has been a lot of speculation lately, from many avenues, as to what submission to one's husband truly means. I have seen submission equated with being a doormat, over and over again. I have also seen it equated with "putting your husband on a pedestal" and following blindly. The examples I had growing up led me to believe that submission was expected of a woman, and taken from her, rather than allowing her the choice to give it. I saw dominant husbands take their roles to the extreme. I heard it touted about that the man made the money, and that the woman had no say. One story in particular I remember hearing over the pulpit related from the lips of RWD himself. A man in the church was talking to RW, and RW said that he was thinking about getting a new car, and so they stopped and looked at a dealer's lot. RW was strongly considering buying one particular car, and the brother asked him, "Are you going to talk to your wife about it first?" RW told him in no uncertain terms that HE made the money, and it was HIS, he didn't CARE what his wife thought because HE was the head of the household and she would either fall in line or there would be problems." Another story I heard from him was one in which he was saying that he had no need to look at pornography, because he had a wife. "All I need to do is go home and tell her to get undressed, and she'd better do it," were his exact words. To me this sounded like rape, and neither story really sounded biblical to me. I didn't understand how a person could think this way about his wife. Didn't the Bible say that a man was to love his wife as his own body? I needed a better answer. After years of soul-searching as an adult, I stumbled accidentally onto the literal answer that I felt applied, biblically. A friend of mine has a daughter who is 11 years old. She is very much a follower. When asked what movie she wants to watch, or kind of dinner she'd like to have, etc, she always just asks to have the choice made for her. Some would see this as weak. These people have not seen her, though, when someone tries to tell her what to do when she did not give them permission to do so. In her last neighborhood, there was a bully. He constantly tried to force her to play the game he wanted to play. She refused and usually went inside. One day, she saw him treating someone else this way, and she got in his face and in no uncertain terms told him exactly what she thought of his controlling attitude.
Her mother and I discussed this, and I pointed out that she will most likely be a very submissive wife. She was concerned, because not all men see submission as something they earn from their wives, but something that is due them for the simple fact that they own a Y chromosome. Then, we started to see, as with the bully, that her daughter was choosy about who was allowed to tell her what to do, and who was not. She gave her submission to those who had earned it - either her parents, by right of them being her parents, or her friends, by right of having been nice to her and earning it. This got me thinking about what true submission is in adults who marry. This is what I came up with. A woman who is submissive to her husband can either chose to do so, or have the choice taken away. When a woman has that choice taken away from her, it is not healthy. She is married to a dominant, control freak husband who must dominate every aspect of his wife's life. The woman who chooses to be submissive takes control of her own life. She finds a man that she feels is strong, and worthy of her trust. By placing her trust in him, she is able to allow him the reins, and be submissive to him.
Sidetrack for a second - because I'm a horse person, everything seems to have analogy in horses :) With horses, they are stronger than you, they can be meaner than you, etc. But if you respect that horse, and do what you can to work with him or her to form a partnership, that horse will trust you for the rest of his or her life, and you can guide where that horse goes, with only a few nudges along the way. But if you are mean to that horse, and completely disrespect it, you will get one of two things. One horse may end up with a broken spirit. He has no real purpose in life other than keeping you from getting angry with him. Another horse may end up taking back the control, and buck you off and refuse to allow you to touch it. Women are the same way. Women who truly feel that they have control over their lives will fight you if you take her for granted, and are rude and disrespectful to her. How can she be successful in raising children according to God's laws, if she and her husband are unable to follow them in their own lives? Women who do not have control of their lives - or feel that they do not - end up broken. Their children end up raised in an unhealthy environment, because how can she raise happy, well adjusted children, when she herself is not? Neither is a good scenario. Women shouldn't think that being submissive means becoming a doormat. It means trusting in your husband to do what is right for your family, and placing yourself under him on the totem pole. It is something only you can do. No one should ever be able to take that choice away from you. But put yourself on the totem pole above him, and you emasculate him, and do not allow him to lead, which is where God wanted him to be.
Men, don't think that submission is a sign of weakness. Your wife is not weak. She is a woman in her own right, with her own personality, her own likes and dislikes, her own opinions. Completely disregard this and you will have one of the 2 previous scenarios. It is a good recipe for disaster. But treat her right, let her know that her opinion matters. I am not suggesting that you drop the reins and become emasculated. It is completely possible to allow your wife to express her opinion, hear her, and then make your decision, even if it is not what she suggested. She will still feel heard and considered, and that is important. It is the mark of a true leader who allows his wife to share her opinion before making his decision.
Jennifer Maesner
81 comments:
Jennifer,
That is an excellent article!
If God humbles Himself to not only hear our prayers, but also to perform the counsel of his messengers (Isa 44v26),
then no man should be afraid to hear his wife's opinion and even to perform her counsel.
It is a team.
I watched BLACK BEAUTY last night. And I marvelled that the men did not listen to good horse sense when Beauty refused to cross the flooded bridge.
If a man truly believes his wife is a help who is meet or fit or appropriate to help him, he will trust her opinion.
If he does not he should not marry the woman.
Your thread is very well written and well thought-out.
Thank You for it =)
Angela
P.S.
God made Eve for Adam; and God don't make junk. If a man has a problem with his wife, it is probably really a problem with his own self image or lack of faith in God.
Hi Jennifer,
Very informative and uplifting article. I never quite understood RW's take on submission. Our serviceman's director taught us that the woman had an equal voice, and it was ultimately up to the man to make the final descion.
I remember one conference, RW huffed at husbands who let their wives use the check book. He must not do income taxes, where the IRS requires your spouse to be on your checking account for direct deposit. He said when he counseled folks, it was often the woman who messed up the finances. My husband and I just looked at each other with disbelief. The frightening thing was, we talked to another couple in church about the same subject. They felt the same we did.
Yeah guys... go to the field for 60 days and not leave your wife a checkbook or financial access. Not only will you be subject to UCMJ if your command finds out, but you can expect to lose respect from your peers for not taking care of your family.
rev. Davis said in class many times to tell your wife to "shut up" or to"shut your big fat mouth" , etc. My husband started right away to tell me to shut up, etc. Through the years it has only gotten worse. It was taught to him that it's okay and he completely believes it to be the thing to do. He has become quite a bully with his words. Who do I blame? His teacher. His pastor who should have been an example for the good, but he was a very bad example. How many times have we heard Rev. Davis talk about men being hard like that. It was okay because "who would want a husband that said, yes, dear" He made fun of men who were nice like that. Men are suppose to be men. etc. Give me a stinking break! Just because he has some anger problems why does he have to teach it to others? SICK!
does the Bible use the word "submissive"? I thought the words associated with this particular subject in the Bible were submit and subjection. If submissive is not in the Bible, then they misrepresented the true meaning of those passages.
maybe we need to find the definitions of these words. I will look them up in the dictionary and get back later)
This indeed is a very interesting topic. The only time a pastor wanted a woman to be "submissive" or in subjection to her husband was when her husband was in agreement with the pastor.
If the husband was not in agreement with the pastor, he would say that the wife didn't have to listen to the husband.
what a bunch of hypocrites and self serving manipulators.
we were all taught wrong.
polaris
Jennifer,You have wrote this suberbly!Well done! At putting so many of our thoughts into words.
While being stuck in ntcc. I was always frustrated,angry,helpless for my future. Where before I was in the military,working. And felt more worth as a human being then I did once we got to WA. I got there Before it was opened to the town folk! And boy did we get blasted. All I heard was women being bashed and bashed and bashed. I was a newbie. Supposed to be so excited to be there. And all I felt was anger and what he was saying about women. At the time my husband try to smooth it all over with. Well if it does not concern me,or if I am not doing what he was preaching against. Then it should not worry me. But it did! I am for women's equal rights,I served in the military and I for one am for women in combat! So to hear him put down ALL women! Made my blood boil.
rw likes women in his favorite era before women worked in the factories. And they realized I do not have to just be a housewife. I can do a job,keep my home. And he can stop blaming women for the divorce rate. It takes TWO!
to the women still in ntcc. That are babysitting one,two,three children on a daily basis. Guess what dear,that is a JOB!! I know one lady still in ntcc. She babysits multiply children,has to pay taxes. But it is not a job,she is still in her home!! AS IF!
CM
verna davis NOT SUBMISSIVE AT ALL
At the campground, in the Lodge, verna called the women over to tell us "It's the small drop of water that wears away the stone." She was speaking of nagging her husband subtilly to wear away his will.
That is rebellion.
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.
I personally believe verna hates r.w. constantly jerking her chain. She does need her diamond ring and Cadillac 'fix' like a drug addict needs a fix; but what a cost.
I don't see her willingly submitting or being in subjection.
I see lots of fear of humiliation and subversive, passive-aggressive hatred.
To rdub she says, Yes, dear, the man is the head. To the women she whispers, The man may be the head, but the woman is the neck that turns the head. That is rebellion.
Rebellion starts in the heart and in secret long before it manifests in actions.
Some women openly and passionately disagree with their husbands without having any rebellion in their hearts. These women have hearts and minds. A wise husband will win his wife's trust through wisdom and kindness. He understands she may not think the same way; but he can talk to her and they can come into agreement.
Men, do you always agree with what God tells you to do? Do you immediately obey? Or do you like to voice your concerns?
How do you want God to treat you?
That is how you should treat your spouse.
Simple but beautiful.
Angela
Lot more women doing the finances that are Still in ntcc. And doing the job much better then the men.
Anonymous #1 said: "I remember one conference, RW huffed at husbands who let their wives use the check book." I heard that time and time again. Thankfully, my parents didn't take this to heart - my mom was ALWAYS the one to handle the finances - she put the reciepts into quickbook, she balanced the checkbook, she paid the bills, all of it. She asked my dad for the budget, and she abided by it. Now, I handle the finances the same way, including handling all the tax stuff that gets handed off to the accountant (I know absolutely nothing about business taxes lol). My husband trusts me to do bills and bookkeeping just like my father did my mother, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Polaris: you said "does the Bible use the word "submissive"? I thought the words associated with this particular subject in the Bible were submit and subjection. If submissive is not in the Bible, then they misrepresented the true meaning of those passages....
This indeed is a very interesting topic. The only time a pastor wanted a woman to be "submissive" or in subjection to her husband was when her husband was in agreement with the pastor.
If the husband was not in agreement with the pastor, he would say that the wife didn't have to listen to the husband."
How true this is. As long as the husband does the pastor's will, his wife should follow him like a sheep with no voice. But the moment he decides to leave the church (NOT his wife) his wife is counciled to leave him, even though he has NOT abandoned her. Not even is this not scriptural, it is abhorrant.
The scripture I have heard most often to justify the total subjegation of women is Ephesians 22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."
That last verse is particularly stressed, because they interpret it to mean that you cannot question your husband at all, in anything. But do we not question God sometimes, and ask why? And do we not (if we're doing right) follow his leading? As a wife, I can ask my husband's reasons behind something, and if he is receptive then I can offer up my own opinion. But in the end, I will follow him, trusting him to do what is right for me and our family, just as I trust God to do what is right for me and my family.
CM, I often wondered about that myself. If you're making money for something, isn't that a job? And to expand, since the church teaches that the two sexes are not even allowed to swim together, how is it they justify men attending births, at a time when they have to see the women's most vulnerable and private areas? I would think they would encourage women to become midwives to attend the women, rather than sending them to a doctor who might be male. What about back when you couldn't just go buy clothes, someone had to make them. Do they expect the men to make women's clothing... or is it okay for a women to make the clothing as long as she doesn't get paid for it? I realize I'm getting a bit to the extreme, but it's just such a slippery slope, I don't know how they are able to justify it.
Anonymous said,
rev. Davis said in class many times to tell your wife to "shut up" or to"shut your big fat mouth" , etc. My husband started right away to tell me to shut up, etc. Through the years it has only gotten worse. It was taught to him that it's okay and he completely believes it to be the thing to do. He has become quite a bully with his words. Who do I blame? His teacher. His pastor who should have been an example for the good, but he was a very bad example. How many times have we heard Rev. Davis talk about men being hard like that. It was okay because "who would want a husband that said, yes, dear" He made fun of men who were nice like that. Men are suppose to be men. etc. Give me a stinking break! Just because he has some anger problems why does he have to teach it to others? SICK!
February 03, 2010 12:28 PM--Anon
********************
Angela says,
Anonymous, I am so sad to hear that you are being made to suffer this way.
God certainly did not intend for husbands to abuse their wives in any way.
I pray your husband will ask God and you to forgive him for his inappropriate and abusive behaviour.
And I pray God will heal whatever is wrong inside him that causes him to have anger.
Until then may God's grace and peace keep you and protect you from the hurtful things this man has said or is saying to you.
with Godly love for a sister,
Angela
P.S.
I can tell from your writing that you are very brave and strong and loving. May God reward you accordingly.
JAEL AND THE NAIL--THIS IS FOR YOU, CM =D
CM wrote,
While being stuck in ntcc. I was always frustrated,angry,helpless for my future. Where before I was in the military,working. And felt more worth as a human being then I did once we got to WA. I got there Before it was opened to the town folk! And boy did we get blasted. All I heard was women being bashed and bashed and bashed. I was a newbie. Supposed to be so excited to be there. And all I felt was anger and what he was saying about women. At the time my husband try to smooth it all over with. Well if it does not concern me,or if I am not doing what he was preaching against. Then it should not worry me. But it did! I am for women's equal rights,I served in the military and I for one am for women in combat! So to hear him put down ALL women! Made my blood boil.--CM
Apparently God too endorses women in combat at least when the need arises:
After all, it was a woman, Jael, who slew the enemy of Israel by piercing his temples with a tent nail.
Then God had His prophetess Deborah praise and bless Jael for her valour:
"Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died." Judges ch.4v21 (also see v17-24 or just enjoy all of Judges ch 4 & 5)... :-)
and the blessing:
"Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
He asked water, 'and' she gave 'him' milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead." Judges ch. 5v 24-28
I love those passages of scripture!
Can't help it. It is sheer poetry.
And it shows not only a woman in combat; but a woman prophetess and God endorsing the whole thing.
ntcc's stance on women is backwards, backwoods, and blasphemous. [It's an alliteration thing :-) Frankly forgive my feverish fetish for fanciful fru-fru frivolities...]
But, seriously, women can do more than be like flowers. It's OK to be pretty; and please do your best to smell nice! But don't get in a battle about being in a battle!
If God brought the opportunity to you,
SWING, BABY, SWING that hammer!
Hammer down.
A former Sergeant (E-5) U.S. Army
Angela
Anonymous wrote,
Yeah guys... go to the field for 60 days and not leave your wife a checkbook or financial access. Not only will you be subject to UCMJ if your command finds out, but you can expect to lose respect from your peers for not taking care of your family.
February 03, 2010 11:43 AM--Anon
Sassy says,
BUT IF ANY PROVIDE NOT FOR HIS OWN, AND SPECIALLY FOR THOSE OF HIS OWN HOUSE, HE HATH DENIED THE FAITH, AND IS WORSE THAN AN INFIDEL.--Well, actually it is the Apostle Paul speaking as he is moved by the Spirit of God. From his letter to Timothy, I_Tim. 5v8.
Angela
One of the best decisions I made while in ntcc, was to go against the teachings of RW and give my wife the checkbook. I was so busy with work, going to church, dealing with the ministry, on and on-- that I didn't have time to deal with the bills. This caused alot of problems and marriage strife. As soon as I gave my wife the power to deal with the bills, she did an amazing job. All the bills got paid on time, and she even paid off a number of debts. She definitely did a better job than I ever could-- and the marriage got alot better because of it.
AXP (another ex-preacher)
A little bit more on women in battles....
Abimelech killed by a woman...Judges 9v50-55 esp. v53 and v54
(53)And a certain woman cast a piece of a millstone upon Abimelech's head, and all to brake his skull.
(54)Then he called hastily unto the young man his armourbearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A woman slew him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died.
But people did remember a woman killed him: II_Samuel 11v21:
Who smote Abimelech the son of Jerubbesheth: did not a woman cast a piece of a millstone upon him from the wall, that he died in Thebez? why went ye nigh the wall: then say thou, Thy servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also.
God will use whoever is willing to do whatever is necessary; yes, even a 'certain woman'....
Angela
Verna M. Davis not submissive. An example to further explain my previous story:
In the drawing used here as my avatar, you can see that the ntcc National Campground tabernacle is a large building. Its north-south axis is much longer than its east-west axis.
When the tabernacle was built, a sound engineer donated his / her recommendations for this building for sound baffles and other features that would help the congregation hear well in such a large echo chamber.
The building crew painstakingly implemented this thoughtful engineer's recommendations.
All of this design work hinged off the location of the altar where the pulpit and band would be located.
And the altar or platform was located on the building's WEST wall.
The design was beautiful. The chairs were placed in an arc around the altar and I remember thinking, There's not a bad seat in the house!
There was a conference held with the building set up this way and I thought everything went great.
Sometime later my husband Eric was all distressed. He told me the building crew was going to change the location of the platform and move it to the NORTH end of the chapel.
What? This made no sense. Now the man running the mixing board during services had to use binoculars (for real) to see kekel on the platform in order to adjust the sound. Now the building's sound baffles were not going to work because the sound source was moved.
I asked Eric why they decided to do this. He said verna didn't like it the other way.
Um, a woman CAN get a man to do things.
But at what cost? And for what purpose? And how? Was it that small drop of water wearing away the stone?
Did she continually nag rdub until he did what she wanted him to do?
I'm shaking my head just remembering it.
People showed up outside the tabernacle so early before the service. I thought they were frantic to get the front row seats. I remember rdub saying they showed up early to pray because they hadn't been praying. Maybe. Maybe they couldn't hear in the back of the building and wanted a better seat. I don't know.
I just thought it was strange. All that work just to "make mamma happy; coz if mamma ain't happy..."
You know. If that had been any other woman, rebelling, nagging, cajoling in order to change the tabernacle, whew! You KNOW rdub would publicly humiliate that woman.
But it's different when it's rdub's family.
Hmmnn.
Angela
SUBMISSION IS NOT ABOUT AUTHORITY AND IT IS NOT OBEDIENCE; IT IS ALL ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS OF LOVE AND RESPECT.
From "THE SHACK" BY Wm._Paul Young
Ugh!!!!
NTCC women, please stop pulling your kids out of school for an entire week of nothingness just to go to those so-called conferences. I just saw the 2010 conference dates on NTCC Good News: April 26-29 and September 27-30. Most schools are not on break during these times. It would be worth it for the kids if they did more than sit in a hotel room, visit the same old tired caves, walked the same old tired Mark Twain village streets. You subject them to the ridiculously fake spiritual services day after day. All for what? To get them excited about continuing your "legacy" in NTCC as a preacher or preacher's wife? Ugh!
Do them and yourself a favor. Opt this year to stay at home with the kids while your husband goes and make a showing for the family. They'll love a week of no boring church services and getting to bed at a decent hour for a change. Maybe you can have a family fun night?
NTCC seems to schedule these conferences during school times to show you that they could care less about your children's education. All they want is for you to pack them off to NTCS when they finish high school (and in some cases drop out of high school).
Stop the madness! Put your foot (or pump) down this year and refuse to pull your kids out of school. If they attack your decision, then you know you've made the right one.
Fact is, many families are opting to skip conferences regularly these days. They probably won't make a fuss anyway. As I think about, the husband probably prefers the whole family to go because "misery loves company".
If I've offended anyone by that statement, my apologies.
Just Saying
I'm not offended by your statement, but it's not that simple. You have to understand that, as lame as they were, those conferences were the only "vacations" we EVER took. Now what kind of mom or dad is going to go on vacation and leave their kids behind? Granted, there is a serious downside, which you have well described. Nevertheless, some of the best times I ever had with my family occurred around conference time, in spite of the crap we had to endure. I took my son fishing during conference, and we stopped in at Yellowstone one year and saw Old Faithful. Mt. Rushmore too, I think. A few times we dashed off en-route and visited relatives. I bet it's not a "tired old cave" to a kid who never gets to do anything. They all deserve a reprieve from the unrelenting boringness of the Graham existence (can't really call it a life).
What I'm saying is that, despite the negative aspects of the conference thing, taking my kids was the right thing to do. We left them back a couple of times because we couldn't afford plane tickets for everybody from Alaska, but I was sorry to do it. They weren't allowed on the campground anyway, so they got to play with other kids while we were in our brainwashing sessions.
One time AXP came with us (I don't think he could afford to bring his family or even get there that year). The alternator went out in Iowa, and we just happened on a junkyard that was run by Seventh Day Adventist folks, and was therefore open on Sunday. We slept in the car until they opened in the morning, and replaced the alternator in the parking lot. Then we went and got breakfast and made it (one service late) to conference. On the way back, we stopped at some dinosaur national monument in Wyoming and checked out some cool fossils and watched a documentary movie about the geology. Watching a movie is a big thing to an org kid, you know, although nowadays I understand things have changed, although Mike assures us that nothing has changed. Alice in Wonderland sensibilities are required to interpret org "reality." One thing that never changes is the "off with her head" style leadership.
So use your judgment parents, remembering that a normal kid will make up a week of school without too much trouble, but some memories are irreplaceable. Then again, staying back would be more of a reprieve from the whole org paradigm, and that can only help. Play it by ear and trust your individual decision. Either way, make the best of it.
Vic,
How about not going to conference, and take the kids out of school for the week? This way everyone benefits in the best possible way.
The only better thing to do is leave for good.
Gregory
All of you are on a roll with this conference and kids thing.
I like what Vic said about trusting your individual decision. What a novel concept for people in the borg. What, you mean I can exercise my God-given free will? Hmnnn.
But I gotta say, I think Gregory has the best idea: LEAVE THE BORG! =D
Sassy
Just Saying wrote: If they attack your decision, then you know you've made the right one.
Sounds right to me, having BTDT. =D
I'm shaking my head just remembering it.
People showed up outside the tabernacle so early before the service. I thought they were frantic to get the front row seats. I remember rdub saying they showed up early to pray because they hadn't been praying. Maybe. Maybe they couldn't hear in the back of the building and wanted a better seat. I don't know.
Angela shared!
-------------------------
TRUE STORY!!!!!
No those women were NOT getting there early to pray. Service started at 7PM,I believe. ladies were lining up at 5PM to 5:30 PM. And it was not a causual gathering. They were LINED up. NO CUTTING! I went early ONE TIME! Because after what I saw when the doors were opened. MADE ME SICK TO MY STOMACH!
I am not sure of the ladies name and her little girl. I think she was Garcia,hispanic lady. Her adorable little girl were in line. Once the doors opened. Those so called wonderful spirit filled Christian ladies. PUSHED,SHOVED,and PUSHED and SHOVED! Trying to get in that door. That little girl got seperated from her Mommy. and was getting pushed into the door. Part of her inside and part of her outside. I am NOT A WEAK person. I started PUSHING back! I made sure that little girl got in and was not hurt. I went up to the sister,check on her little girl. that Mom was so emotional upset.
Once those wonderful so called Christian ladies walked in. They THREW pencils,notebooks anything to get a Seat before someone could RUN and get it before them. And then SAVE five more seats beside them. Which was AGAINST what rw kept telling people. NO SAVING seats. But ladies did it anyways. I saw a purse there. I put it under the seat and SAT down!!
Back to that little girl. I was so MAD at those ladies for pushing to get into a CHURCH sanctuary! I braved going up to rw davis while he was walking down the aile. I was shaking in my highheel ugle pump shoes. I had to do it. Those ladies could have wrenched that girls arm,broke it!!!
I told him what happened. He did mention it at the pulpit,condoned what the ladies were doing.
I am sure that did not stop them from acting the same way the next evening. I don't know. Because I never went early again. We went out to eat,close as we could. Took a NAP! Got rest while in MO! Did not stay up until ONE AM,and then go to service the next day!
One more thing,those ladies were not fighting for a seat so they would be closer to hear the preaching. NO WAY. It was all about PRIDE! Look at me,I am sitting close to the leaders wive's. Look at me,rubbing elbows with verna,tanya,ect.. Again make my stomach want to get sick! I hate brown noser's. And there are alot of suck ups in ntcc. What a life to live,suck up to the leaders and there wive's to get any tiny bit of morsel of praise from them. Wasting there live's is what there doing!!
I get upset about that little girl all over again just writing this. I wish I could have the nerve I have now. And go back in time. Just to ream those ladies out! Up one side of them and down the other. How STUPID of them to push and shove like that!
CM
Ange,
I remember when it was in a arc at conference. Was my very first conference. I walked in and about freaked out. Hubby went to one side and I had to go by myself. Did not like that at all. Went back to our local church. Me and hubby sat together.
It is still taking some getting used to,after many years of being seperated while sitting in a ntcc church service.
Is that something that has changed as well? Are men dancing with women(not there wive's) during a so called spirit filled service. I don't think ntcc has EVER had a spirit filled service. It is ALL worked up into a frenzy! Get everyone jumping up and down! Swinging each other around. And come out,thinking wow that was a awesome service! NOT! Did you get anything,but sweat marks from the service??
CM
Yes, the ‘line’ to get in to conference was everything but a casual, edifying affair.
Once the doors opened, it was black Friday shopping at the Mall.
You would be subjected to pushing, shoving, pulling, tripping; all in the span of less than 25 seconds. See grown, mostly obese men and women, jumping over folding chairs, knocking them down when they didn't clear (this happened often), or just wading their girth through the rows. With no regard for any children, elderly, or the slight of person. I too have eschewed the good seat, to do the right thing, and prevent the less aggressive (child, elderly, slight) from being physically harmed by the twice daily competition for the best seat. Most of the worst combatants were Ministers discussed on this very blog.
Keep in mind we had just spent about 2 hours (twice each day) vacuuming, dusting, putting a pitcher of fresh water and a glass on the lectern, cleaning Pastor Davis private bathroom, cleaning Sister Davis private bathroom, and lining the chairs up for service with a nylon line.
I did the show-up-early-for-a-good-seat thing about twice. After that, I would show up right before service started and sit on the isle toward the back. Same view, same sound, same experience, same message...sans the scrum.
I could get two extra hours sleep (or whatever) and not have to hazard another bruising experience.
If you ever saw me up front after 1995, it was because I had helped clean the Tabernacle before service (Rev. Gandy or Rev. Moss let us save seats), or someone had saved a seat for me, and hunted me down before service started.
Gregory
When I am in public. I do not push around people. So why would you push at a Church event. Yes,Black friday indeed!
Or a one day sale at a local Kook store. Those ladies love to jump in and shove others out of the way at those sale's. But at Church!
Oh and for those that had kids. We were TOLD we had to sit halfway back or even at the very back. Because we had children!!
Even back in Washington. it was a given we had to sit in the back. In case we had to be called out. Heaven forbid that a usher would have to walk down and tap us on the shoulder. How horrible that would have been.
Maybe by now they got the electronic system. You get a number and if it blinks. yOu know to leave. Would make that so much simplier!
Always being treated like a child is ntcc number one rule! Even with the change's. it is only because the leaders have done it. So of course it is OK to do it now. these adults have been GIVEN permission to let there kids play sports by Mike K. or listen to country music by Mike K. Go on a vacation is granted to them by Mike K.
Why did we leave home and could not wait to leave. To make our OWN decisions. Whatever the outcome. We were on our own! ntcc takes that away. And makes adults even more kid like. Because even as kids we wanted to make our own decisions. After years of ntcc doing it for you. You have NO IDEA how to do it on your own! Spoon Fed!
CM
" these adults have been GIVEN permission to let there kids play sports by Mike K. or listen to country music by Mike K.
Country Music is no more than white gangster rap with a drawl and a twang lol!
You can tell the ntcc women by the bruises they have on their elbows from shoving people out of the way at the local kook stores and in the prayer line on the campground.
CM you had me cracking up with that blinking light idea. You don't know if you are at church or in line at the deli for disobedient children! What a funny way to describe something so fundamentally WRONG!
ntcc castigates all who enter and abide it's insidious self-serving manifestos. Do this. Don't do that. And tomorrow what you couldn't do today you may do if you beg The Man to allow you.
Pleez Massuh, don't whup me if I wanna take my missus out to McDonald's. It's our ten yeah annuvusary, Suh. Oh, thank ya kind Suh. No, Suh, we won' be havin' any babies, Gots dat taken care of Suh. Yes Suh. Wouldn't wanna hinduh the work of da Lor' Suh. Gableshya Massuh...
Sassy
How clumsy of me, I meant to say ntcc CASTRATES all ... Boy, if the Doctors attending ntcc males were as clumsy as I, that would lead to true castration in true ntcc style.
What? You didn't get a vasectomy?
40 lashes save one. Dat be 39, Massuh? Yes Suh. Right away Suh.
Suh, it wuld be a priviluge Suh if ya wuld whup me Yoself. Thank ya Massuh. I be by right qwik to shine ya shoes Massuh. An my missus, she be by direckly to scrub yo Missus' floor, Massuh. Sho is a priviluge taken care of duh man of Gawd, Massuh.
I know this has gotten a bit off the topic, but these last few post have been hilarious and memorable. The description of the goings on in the conference lines is a new thread within itself. I know there are other "waiting in line at conference" stories to share.
Just Saying
There is some humor in all this. But it is so wrong for Christians to behave the way folks did at the camp. I'm glad somebody protected that little girl from being smushed. If it is the Garcia family I know, they are OUT. And the mom, is Samoan. Hey Tidda! Gary Garcia posted on factnet how the borg expected him to live in one of olson's tenement slums in the Gasconade area of St. Louis. He was angry because a
SIX YEAR OLD GIRL HAD BEEN RAPED ON THE SCHOOL BUS!
This was the area olson expected him to raise his family????
You can be sure lil ol' regina (olson) brille never had to live somewhere like that.
That is the problem with ntcc.
THEY DON'T CARE WHAT DANGER THEY PUT YOU IN AS LONG AS THEY CAN COAST AROUND IN THE LAP OF LUXURY. SICKOS.
Ange
P.S. The slum-lord stories might be a thread all by themselves.--Ange
"Vic,
How about not going to conference, and take the kids out of school for the week? This way everyone benefits in the best possible way."
Win-win! Well, except for the org, but they're losers anyway.
"...cleaning Pastor Davis private bathroom, cleaning Sister Davis private bathroom..."
HUH? The royalty has their own personal facilities in the 'tabernacle?'
Are there gold fixtures?
"If it is the Garcia family I know, they are OUT."
We visited the Garcias in Colorado Springs five or six year ago; they were doing great. That's the usual story when people leave NTCC; haven't found anyone yet doing worse. Don't be afraid to cast off the org shackles; you too can have a life.
Vic remarked, "HUH? The royalty has their own personal facilities in the 'tabernacle?'
Are there gold fixtures?"
Yeah, it's the saddam special, gold fixtures, marble panels, and even a gold bedet so that way rdub doesn't even have to wipe himself... ;~}
sASSy
Vic,
The private bathrooms are to the right as you would walk in to the Tabernacle. They are the two rooms/doors, next to each other, marked 'Private'.
Mom and Pop were 'authorized' to use them, but now it's just for Pastor and Sis. Davis (maybe the board members are now also allowed to use them).
Many times (after almost every service) I have made the 'sprint' across the field to use the toilet for an emergency. Especially since the services are so long. Two times I didn't make it, and defecated on myself.
It would have been nice to use the bathroom already in the Tabernacle. Or maybe they could have installed an additional bathroom the rest of us could use.
After all, many of us gave special additional offerings to fund this building.
Gregory
Are there mirrors in those bathrooms?
And why do rdub and verna need separate bathrooms from each other? Aren't they married? That's really weird. Guess they can't even wait for each other. How selfish.
Controlling when and how someone goes to the toilet is a severe form of abuse. It reminds me of abusers who lock people in boxes, duct tape, and chains to gain full control over them in every area. The victim is completely dependent on the abuser for everything: air, light, water, food, bathroom, life, death, pain, freedom. Very disturbing. It's astonishing that people are in bondage to such a degree. There must be an evil spirit running this cult to cause people to live in such needless distress.
The last conference we were in they had just built the new bathrooms right outside the tabernacle. We were suppose to be so thankful that they were right there. They even had TP in them for us. No hot water of course and I don't remember any mirrors. It would be just too nice of them to put some up so you could make sure you looked okay and that nothing was tucked in that shouldn't be. lol
YOUR 48 YEARS OF FAITHFUL SERVICE MEAN NOTHING. GO POOP ON YOURSELF!
"...cleaning Pastor Davis private bathroom, cleaning Sister Davis private bathroom..." Gregory
"After all, many of us gave special additional offerings to fund this building." Gregory
"Many times (after almost every service) I have made the 'sprint' across the field to use the toilet for an emergency. Especially since the services are so long. Two times I didn't make it, and defecated on myself." Gregory
You cleaned these bathrooms.
You funded these bathrooms.
But when you needed these bathrooms they were off-limits to you???
Folks, why be part of a cult where you have to wear "Depends" to make it through a service without soiling your clothes?
And this is a guy who:
About Me
My name is Gregory Shunk. I was with NTCC for seventeen years. Having spent two years living in a Servicemen's Home as a church member, and eleven of these as a Pastor. During this time I also pioneered three Churches, a Seminary in Korea, and was one of their Ordained Ministers. I have preached at the Missouri Training Center, and had numerous articles published in "The Trumpet". Both under my own name, and with others taking credit for my work. I have stayed in the “Lodge” a few times consecutively, and was the regional overseer for Korea for almost four years. I was one of NTCC’s Ordained Ministers. My Ordained Minister's License was not renewed for 2009 for reasons still unclear. I have been married to Deborah for sixteen years.
And he is married to a woman who:
My name is Deborah Shunk. I was involved with New Testament Christian Churches of America, Incorporated (NTCC) for over thirty-two years. I was previously married to Rev. Richard C Blumenthal for fifteen years. I've been a Pastor's wife, an Executive Board member's wife, have ministered in civilian and military works in the United States and overseas, and been a Missionary. I have been a Licensed Minister, pioneered Churches, and stayed in the "Lodge" countless times. I've taken Pastor Davis' AST course, and traveled in Pastor Davis motor home with them. I have lived in the "Dorms" both in St. Louis and in Washington State, and spent many thousands of hours with the Senior Leadership of NTCC during my three plus decades of involvement. I have taught at NTCC's Seminary in the Philippines, and been on the Evangelistic field. I resigned from NTCC's Ministerial roles during December of 2008. I have been married to Gregory for sixteen years.
Altogether Miss Deborah and Gregory have a combined 48 years of faithful service in ntcc. I'm sure, having excelled in the ntcc culture, they had an excellent 'read' on how things work in ntcc.
Yet he was not deemed important enough to use the bathroom there? Instead he was reduced to sprinting for a toilet but didn't make it in time; defecating on himself on two different occasions?
Makes me want to 'GO' there...
Sassy
I remember a few close calls through the years of having to go the bathroom so bad after a long service (2-3 hours). You had to hike quite a ways, usually in wet grass and mud, to find a line to the bathroom, which only held 2 people at a time. Then when you got in there, there would be no privacy if you had to do #2, and of course, NO toilet paper.
WHAT WILL ntcc MAKE YOU DO? POOP ON YOURSELF.
If Jesus showed up in your church, would He be deemed important enough to gain access to Your Private Throne Room? Or would He too have to sprint for another toilet, only to not make it in time and defecate on Himself?
AND THE KING SHALL ANSWER AND SAY UNTO THEM, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, INASMUCH AS YE HAVE DONE 'IT' UNTO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, YE HAVE DONE 'IT' UNTO ME.--Matt. 25v40
Don't say he made that choice. You know that isn't true. That was his only choice or face something worse than defecating on himself.
And this is an ordained minister.
ntcc is SICK & TWISTED.
Sassy
btw--Had to walk across the hall to the bathroom and take a 'break' and didn't need anybody's permission to do so.
Human beings are created in the image of God. They are not animals. But in ntcc they have no compassion. You just don't matter to them. You are only there to serve them and to be discarded like a soiled diaper. Experience talking.
Sassy
BYOTP OR GO WITHOUT OR LET US FORCE SOME POOR WORKER SLAVE TO BUY IT FOR YOU...
Anon wrote: "The last conference we were in they had just built the new bathrooms right outside the tabernacle. We were suppose to be so thankful that they were right there. They even had TP in them for us."
I wouldn't get too excited about that. Probably some poor sucker went out and paid for that toilet paper out of his or her own pocket. Because that is the way it is in the ntcc cult.
Angela
NO STALLS FOR YOU-PRIVATE BATHROOMS FOR US-WHO IS PROUD HERE?
Private bathrooms for the davis and kekel clan. No stalls or privacy in the bathrooms for others; who is proud here?
When teenya shaeckle aka tanya kekel got preggers, they built her a private bathroom in the Fellowship Hall up in Graham, Washington.
But for the girls on the camp it was change a tampon in front of other women so all of you can be humbled from your pride.
I'm not making these things up. I lived in the Lodge while Eric and I stayed the winters at the campground as assistants to the caretakers Rev. and Mrs. Mears. I've heard with my own ears r.w. davis say that the reason people didn't want to shower in front of others was because they were proud.
I guess, then, that r.w. davis is the most pride-filled person I have ever met except possibly for his son-in-law kekel or their wives verna and tanya. You will never see them taking a shower in front of others. Nor will you ever see them doing any of the other detestable things that they demand of others.
They are HYPOCRITES who USE CALCULATED TECHNIQUES TO BREAK PEOPLE DOWN INTO SLAVES. "PERIOD"
Angela
Jeff,
Love the Gestapo(sp) picture!
Ange,
there were more than two bathroom stalls on the campground! You forgot to count the.. pickle jars... some couples kept in their room!
Oh, so the pickle jars were for THAT. Gotcha. I didn't understand that reference before. I thought it was referring to the jellybean or m&m thing that couples do to mark the number of times they are intimate; supposedly during the first year of marriage one piece of candy is added for each encounter; then the unhappy couple spends the rest of their lives trying to empty the jar by removing candy one piece at a time for each intimate encounter after their first year (the honeymoon is over). ...
Back to the pickle jar. I heard one couple used the soda cup from the convenience store. Kinda of a turn-about is fair play thing.
Board members have a canopies over their beds.
You get a can of pee under your bed.
Isn't that special?
But you are just proud. God is humbling you. Blah, blah, blah.
WHATEVER.
Angela
I know that this may sound a little out of line with some of you, but as I remember rwd and his wife are out there in age, so I think that the reason for them to have "his and hers" bathrooms is because of their inability to hold it anymore, and this condition is called "incontinence"
I would think that that is the reason why they built them a his and hers bathrooms near the church. I remember one time rwd joked about being in a church and entered the bathroom and found no tp so while he went out to tell the pastor about this he couldn't hold it anymore and went on himself.
I'm sorry for shunk and his wife, I know that they have being in third world countries where you contract all kind of diseases and sister shunk was one of them who was so sick that I don't know the whole story, blumenthal told us just a little about it, how that she got diarrhea so bad and they were traveling,but the conditions of the phillipines was so bad she didn't want to squat on the floor and go, so richard told us that the poor dear had to hold it for a long time. Maybe greg, has had this same condition. I don't think you can ever be cured of this parasite if you get it.
GO WET YOURSELF. A JUDGMENT FROM THE LORD.
Previous comment above this block sounds like someone is trying to justify ntcc's lack of care for some members while spoiling board members.
In a way I'm glad davis soiled himself. He is the one who has made everyone so afraid that they won't leave for the bathroom when they need to.
They are sitting in distress trying to 'hold it' while he rails on ministers and ministers' wives about this weeks pet peeve sin, that next week will be okay because grant davis's grandson wants to do it.
God has a sense of humor. And I think God allowing davis, verna and rdub, to have weak plumbing is a very good form of judgment for how davis has been 'humbling' God's children for the past 40 years.
Yeah, God has a sense of humor.
GO WET YOURSELF RDUB AND VERNA.
YOU CAN HOARDE ALL THE PRIVATE BATHROOMS AND BLESSINGS THAT YOU WANT; BUT YOU'RE STILL GONNA WET YOURSELVES.
rw and verna are old. but doubt they were having trouble holding their pee back in '93 when those private baths were built.
Maybe their incontinence is a judgment from God for all the years they made others wait in lines for very limited restroom space at the b.s. in Graham and at the camp.
Meanwhile davis and his nepotistic cohorts have plenty of wealth for whatever they want to do.
But missionaries are left starving and struggling to get by.
While davis and his tool around in luxury vehicles and sports cars.
Non-profit org? Sure.
GWYs mUck
Sassy
I knew that my posting was not going to be read with gladness and joy, but, I would have to agree with you sassy, all the things that we have read about mistreatments are just too much for us to turn a blind eye.
I sure don't want to make it sound like I'm trying to make an excuse for them, but things happen when we get old, and that was my point in my previous post.
All in all we all are going to have to stand in judgment one day and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.
The things that people have been posting here are way to hurtful and I don't know how they have come to cope with themselves and go on and live a fruitful life, but that just lets me know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel for us all.
Thanks Jeff, for your audacity in keeping your blog here.
apw
apw,
if anything is hurtful on here. That is because it is true stories folks are sharing. Finally able to vent,and get it out. We all kept so much bottled up for many,many years. PRETENDING it was all smiles and happiness. Aren't all Christians happy people! we have the Best life ! ntcc Jargon! I used to think,what is so happy about this life that I had in ntcc? It really was NO LIFE at all! Just a life they controlled.
I know have a life,a voice and my own personality back. No a robot wife that ntcc likes the women to become. Smile bauble heads. Smiled and nod,smile and nod! Don't share a REAL thought,opinion. GASP,you will get the glazed over look.
What is shared is all true!
CM
apw wrote: "I'm sorry for shunk and his wife, I know that they have being in third world countries where you contract all kind of diseases and sister shunk was one of them who was so sick that I don't know the whole story, blumenthal told us just a little about it, how that she got diarrhea so bad and they were traveling,but the conditions of the phillipines was so bad she didn't want to squat on the floor and go, so richard told us that the poor dear had to hold it for a long time. Maybe greg, has had this same condition. I don't think you can ever be cured of this parasite if you get it." February 24, 2010 2:20 PM
........
So then let's say the Shunk's contracted a parasite while on the mission field, doing a work for the Lord. Shouldn't they be honored by having special care taken for their special need? They did these great works for the Lord yet rw has no regard for them or for their needs?
SELFISH.
rw can not even allow them to have a decent place to relieve themselves?
He profits from their years of sacrifice and labor, and laughs at their distress?
He thinks it's funny they had these troubles?
Rev. Shunk was an ORDAINED MINISTER WHO JUST SCRUBBED THOSE TOILETS BUT ntcc CAN'T EVEN TRUST HIM TO USE THAT SAME TOILET OR TO LEAVE THE BUILDING AND FIND ANOTHER ONE?
They had no problem accepting the tithes and offerings from his escrow accounts though.
He's smart enough and hard-working enough to remodel three churches, pioneer three churches, teach in their seminary in Korea, do missionary work and on and on...
But ntcc can't trust him to use a bathroom?
SICKENING.
Sassy
And now you want to say the things written on here are hurtful? Perhaps I am taking that the wrong way. Perhaps you mean what ntcc DOES is hurtful.
LOOK AROUND YOU. WE ARE ONLY DESCRIBING WHAT ntcc IS AND HOW THEY TREAT PEOPLE LIKE TRASH. WE ARE ONLY WRITING ABOUT IT. THEY ARE THE FRAUDS LIVING A LIE. WE ARE JUST DESCRIBING TO YOU WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE. IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH, PERHAPS YOU BELONG IN ntcc BUT NOT HERE. I'M GONNA CALL A SPADE A SPADE AND A SWINDLER A SWINDLER.
rw you are a disgrace to Christianity. You cause people to abhor serving the Lord.
MAY GOD REQUIRE IT OF YOU.
MGRIOY
Angela
"I sure don't want to make it sound like I'm trying to make an excuse for them, but things happen when we get old, and that was my point in my previous post."
That's a valid point, too. So how come the royalty never built facilities for Mom and Pop Gaylord and other elderly saints? Why did this project have to wait until the "apostle" had a need?
We all know why: some people are more equal to others (and if you haven't yet, get and read a copy of "Animal Farm" by George Orwell).
NTCC is an elitist organization, where only the aristocracy's needs and wants are considered. Everyone else? Let them eat cake.
Eating cake breeds revolution!
The Revolution has only just BEGUN!! May God scatter the slaves of anti-christ!
Those evil men (kekel,Davis,etc..) live in luxury now...BUT...the Lake of Fire is for eternity!!
For those of you who think that is "harsh", read 2peter and jude and 2timothy and see what God himself says will happen to false prophets
I think, often times real christians see the fake ones who are hurting others and want them to know they are going to Hell. Yet, the key is that God himself has allowed their self-deception so that "seeing they may not see, and "hearing they will not hear"- the pharisees certainly did not think they were going to Hell. We must wait and be patient, and 'gasp' even pray for them. while still proclaiming the truth as so many of you do so well!
Keep on brothers and sisters!
"Now what kind of mom or dad is going to go on vacation and leave their kids behind?"
Mine.
"Once those wonderful so called Christian ladies walked in. They THREW pencils,notebooks anything to get a Seat before someone could RUN and get it before them. And then SAVE five more seats beside them. Which was AGAINST what rw kept telling people. NO SAVING seats. But ladies did it anyways. I saw a purse there. I put it under the seat and SAT down!!"
I remember this. I wonder if that's when RW started the whole "First 5 rows for ministers and their wives only" thing. It was sick. I hated having to sit there for an hour or more before church had even started.
"Pleez Massuh, don't whup me if I wanna take my missus out to McDonald's. It's our ten yeah annuvusary, Suh. Oh, thank ya kind Suh. No, Suh, we won' be havin' any babies, Gots dat taken care of Suh. Yes Suh. Wouldn't wanna hinduh the work of da Lor' Suh. Gableshya Massuh..."
Oh my gosh, I laughed so hard!!! You sure do have a way of putting it!
"This was the area olson expected him to raise his family????"
When we first moved to St. Louis, we had nowhere to live, so the church allowed us to live in one of their properties on Eiler. Now, before I even go into the condition of the place, let me just tell you that there were crack houses just a few doors down, and prostitutes in the alley behind the house. Inside, there were two teeny tiny rooms and one big room. My parents of course, since their bed did not fit in any of the tiny rooms, had the big bedroom. I had enough room in the one room to put my bed (my dad made me a loft bed, so I had a little room under that also) and enough in the other room for all of my meager belongings. The room my bed was in started smelling. We're talking you can barely walk in the room without gagging. So, my parents talked to Reverend Curry, who told them to move me into the other room. That was it. Noone came out to fix the problem. Right before I moved my bed into the other room, I started noticing that I got a lot of flies in there, so we put up fly tape. Almost every day, we had to change out 4 fly strips. After I moved out of that room, it got really bad. My dad sprayed some kind of chemical that lasts for 4 weeks. He also put up tarp and tape to completely block off the room. When we went in every so often to vacuum the floor, there were bugs all over. There was not one square inch of carpet showing. We'd vacuum, spray, block off the room again, and 2 weeks later, same thing. It was absolutely disgusting. My parents were looking for a home to buy, and we finally found something that suited and moved the heck out of that eiler home. I could not believe my friends (the Rosses) had lived there! Jim Ross told me that he was appalled we had lived there, when I told him later. I have heard that the church has since sold that property. I sure hope they fixed it first!
BTW, while adults may have the bladder and bowel control needed to sit through such long services, young children do not. Even at 13 and 14, I would be squirming in my seat because I had to go SO BAD and my mom rarely ever took me out. When she did, we had to race over the grass and gravel to go as quickly as possible on the toilet, then race back, so we didn't have to miss much. And we always took everything with us, because once we got back, if we didn't find a spot in the back we'd get some really dirty looks from people we had to cross in front of to get back to our seats.
"The room my bed was in started smelling. We're talking you can barely walk in the room without gagging. So, my parents talked to Reverend Curry, who told them to move me into the other room. That was it. Noone came out to fix the problem. Right before I moved my bed into the other room, I started noticing that I got a lot of flies in there, so we put up fly tape. Almost every day, we had to change out 4 fly strips. After I moved out of that room, it got really bad. My dad sprayed some kind of chemical that lasts for 4 weeks. He also put up tarp and tape to completely block off the room. When we went in every so often to vacuum the floor, there were bugs all over."
Well, I guess we know now where at least one of the bodies is buried.
"When we went in every so often to vacuum the floor, there were bugs all over."
Reminds me of that scene in Amityville when the priest was attacked by flies...LOL!
They moved you into that filthy stinking hole to try to get you to be the dumb patsies who clean it up. Once it is cleaned (work done by you while you pay them rent), then they move you out and raise the rent for the next patsies who move in. Is that bait and switch? It is definitely how ntcc does things.
"When we went in every so often to vacuum the floor, there were bugs all over."
"Reminds me of that scene in Amityville when the priest was attacked by flies...LOL!"
.....
One of the rooms in the Lodge was like that too. It was the southwest bedroom. It was really disgusting. I used to think it was a curse or evil spirit or something. Just filthy. Then one year rw davis's private bath had the same problem.
He asked me if I could clean it for him; but Jan Mears wouldn't give up the key to the master bedroom. I guess she saw it as her responsibility even though I let her know rw had asked me if I could do that for him, clean that shower.... I didn't push the matter with Jan. She is my sister and I love her. I know to some it would mean I was not obeying the man of God. But I've always figured love trumps all. Love does not behave itself unseemly.
But what do I know? I'm just another dumb peon worker's wife, right? Not.
If Jan or any of her family or friends see this, still love you guys! God bless whether I see you here there or in the air!
Ange
Oh, BTW, Russ:
THERE ARE OTHER CHRISTIANS OUT THERE!
LOL
;~}
Ange
Those private bathrooms have nothing to do with the Davis' being incontinent. If that was the case why not just build bathrooms right outside the church like they have now? It would have solved that problem for everyone. No, those were just because they didn't want to go in front of other people like we had to.
For all the years in nttc I never knew those rooms were personal bathrooms. It reminds me of a episode in sinfeld how george has a thing for having his own bathroom, and he gets fired for using the bathroom of his boss.
Just imagine somebody using this restroom and rwd going in finding this out! What a riot it would be.
xo
I never knew what the two rooms, in the Missouri "Training Center" Tabernacle, marked 'private', were either. Until I started cleaning them.
Before this, I though these rooms were to count money in (like they have in the Graham chapel).
Gregory
"Before this, I though these rooms were to count money in"
Yeah, I've been in the money-counting room in Graham; it's quite a sight. At some point, they started paying teachers $25/week per class. Paul Jordan or one of the other office drones would inform us to go there after service and get paid. There would be two or three guys sitting around a card table that was literally overflowing with cash. It looked like something you'd expect in the back room of a whorehouse or a gambling den--gangsters counting their illicit gains. They would hand over our pay (in cash, naturally). It gave me some insight into the kind of cash flow they have; those giant piles of money, accumulated every time the church doors were open, were only a fraction of the total take.
But if you're a missionary, don't exepect more than a pittance to help you do God's work. More than that might interfere with the mansion and limousine program for the "men of GAWD."
Did you have to sign a receipt? If not...
Gregory
We did have to sign for the money, but we never got any kind of pay stub or 1099; I could never prove they gave me a dime.
Vic said,
But if you're a missionary, don't exepect more than a pittance to help you do God's work. More than that might interfere with the mansion and limousine program for the "men of GAWD."--Vic
That was funny, the limousine program for the "men of GAWD." It's probably true. Maybe grant will escort his prom date in a limousine. Wonder if he too will brag about, how did you put that Vic, pre-nuptial dalliances? Like his daddy was bragging about tanya to Vic and the guys in the dorm(?).
In one of the usual let-me-brag-about-how-wonderful-we-are pretentious monologues verna used to give, she told me how excited teenya was when she was dating mikey. teenya would come home and say,
"Oh, Mother, I can just FEEL the HAND OF GOD ON HIM!" gush gush
Guess what she meant to say was,
"Oh, Mother, I can just FEEL his HAND ON MY BREAST!" flush flush
And as Vic said, "What a load of B(ible) S(chool)."
Very gawdly.
Sassy
Anonymous said...
Hi Jennifer,
Very informative and uplifting article. I never quite understood RW's take on submission. Our serviceman's director taught us that the woman had an equal voice, and it was ultimately up to the man to make the final descion.--Anon
I believe that is correct. But you won't see any equality in the ntcc leaders' relationships with their wives.
Pitiful.
I remember crossing the ntcc campus parking lot one night between classes and witnessing a 'discussion' between teenya and micky kekel...
she's in the Cadillac; and he's outside on the passenger side. Don't know what he said, I just heard her thunderous
"NO!"
come ripping through the night air.
Man, if I had ever, Ever, EVER talked like that to my husband, he would have read me the riot act and then probably had me before the board of inquisition with rw davis (teenya's daddy) and joey olson.
I remember one time being summoned for just such a special meeting. To this day I don't know why. I know I cried and didn't, (couldn't), say a word in response. But what I remember most was r.w.'s typically thoughtless statement as I was leaving:
My hand was on the doorknob and rw called out,
"Remember, I am your friend."
I'm getting that "Huh???" look on my face right now as I type this.
Please, do not insult my intelligence by calling YOURself MY friend.
I've had the privilege of TRUE friends in my life, and you, rw, do not even begin to come close.
You are only a 'friend' to those God's sent into your life the way judas iscariot was a 'friend' to Jesus.
BARF.
What a wretched fool.
Yeah, rdub is a friend like Joab was to his cousin Amasa when he took him by the beard and asked, Art thou in health, my brother? Then he stuck the blade in and killed him. His own cousin. Murderer.
Trust rdub if you want to get back-stabbed, (or front-stabbed).
That's his caliber.
Sassy
I never quite understood RW's take on submission.--anon
rev. Davis said in class many times to tell your wife to "shut up" or to"shut your big fat mouth" , etc.--anon
One time at the Lodge, verna was telling me about the preaching rdub was doing up in Washington, at the B.S.
She said he was really plowing rebellious women and confided,
"I was just crawling home!"--verna
I remember thinking at the time, Wouldn't it have been easier just to pray through?
rdub's infamous for 'preaching' the same thing over and over and over again.
But if you're sitting in the hot seat, you should just pray through. Then he can 'preach-i-fy' all he wants, and it won't be so hot and miserable for you, verna, if you just REPENT.
I guess wisdom is justified of her children. verna got the repetitious blow-hard she deserves by virtue of an impenitent heart.
Just my opinion. Based on the facts.
Sassy
I was just crawling home!"--verna
Sassy wrote.
This is all FAKE! Make a good show that I am on the same level as you are. Oh look my field is getting plowed. Guess what God does not have to plow my field to get my attention!!!
Verna doesn't even know what it means to get right with God. Since her and her husband are there to get what they can while the going is good.
For those that think,oh just show them love,pray for them. But do not come on here sharing what we experienced at there hands. I do hope they do burn in hell. Saying I am sorry for ruining people's live's would not cut it.
rw does not believe in deathbed salvation. Then why should there be forgiveness by just saying,oh I am sorry for robbing us of our money,life,childreh's live's,not being with our family members.
No I think they have long gone pass where they can redemn themselve's!
CM
You may be right.
rw does not believe in deathbed salvation. Then why should there be forgiveness by just saying,oh I am sorry for robbing us of our money,life,childreh's live's,not being with our family members.
No I think they have long gone pass where they can redemn themselve's!
CM
+++
Nobody wanted to touch that one! They are scared of the truth.
More Equal...
As I finished reading over "The Case Of The Cursed Spring" thread, I decided to check out the CT / Larch The Charch Luzard profile. It has a Wish List linked to a swimming pool company and I thought how funny since I had asked who would clean grant (kekel's) pool for him if people left the ntcc... So I looked at the swimming pool site and the home page has tabs to other pages. Under the Installation tab the following paragraph header came up:
"Not all pools are created equal."
That reminded me of Vic's statement on this thread:
"some people are more equal to others (and if you haven't yet, get and read a copy of "Animal Farm" by George Orwell)." -- Vic
And, please help me out here, Vic; but wasn't that whole book a denouncement of the fraud in communism?
And isn't that fitting for this thread titled "The Submissive Woman By Jennifer Maesner / The Communistic Totalitarian Concentration Camp NTCC Campground Thread" and there's more:
"more equal" -- read "better than" or "more entitled to privileges" than you are. I guess Orwell was saying some (animals?people) are entitled to more; they are "more equal"!?! (It's been awhile since I read that in about 1983.)...
Anyway, this got me thinking about two things linked to the pool that I guess is on the inured property kekel owns [thanks to the generosity of the ntcc giving away their non-profit $392,000 gift to the non-profit founder's son-in-law (ahem)... (illegal, ahem) but...]
Point one:
r.w. davis, founder of ntcc, used to teach a sad story about a man who would no longer serve God because he went to his pastor's house and saw the pastor's daughter sun-bathing in a swim suit. The man could not believe that his pastor who preached holiness standards to the congregation could be such a hypocrite as to allow his own daughter to break those same standards in his own household!
Point Two:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Terra and Ed Mears, the children of Russ and Jan Mears, the caretakers for the ntcc National Campground, were not allowed to swim in the two lakes at the campground. Wouldn't want the cows to lust after anyone...
Can anyone say:
DOUBLE-STANDARD
HYPOCRISY
"MORE EQUAL"
"IT'S DIFFERENT WHEN IT'S YOUR
KID..."
LIARS.
THIEVES.
HYPOCRITES.
"Well, blah, blah, blah everything I do is by the Holy Ghost and I can stay saved if I look at half naked bathers in wet-clinging swim suits; but YOU ARE TOO WEAK!"
I'll agree with that last statement.
If you can read these things and stay in ntcc,
YOU ARE TOO WEAK!
Stand up. Leave ntcc.
They are corrupt!
Angela
"And, please help me out here, Vic; but wasn't that whole book a denouncement of the fraud in communism?"
Ironically, yes. These very charlatans, who claim to be ultra conservative patriotic Americans, actually have more in common with a totalitarian dictatorship than anything else.
...............................AMEN!!!
ultra conservative patriotic Americans.
This is just a COVER for ntcc. Hide behind being zealous in this direction. When in reality there NAZI's in there heads.
Rw davis has always been against a women in office. I go on ntcc members(minister's wive's) they are on Palin's fan page.
They are supporting a Woman for office?
CM
kind of along with being a submissive woman. Well kinda!lol
I was on a denium jean FB group today. it was mainly penticostle women that are members. I did NOT join it. Was just reading what folks were posting concerning wearing denium skirts.
What got me was,why is denium skirts supposed to be more modest clothing then denium pants. I saw there picture's. It was shape forming around there TUSH! slimming down there legs. Some of the A-line cut skirts are not that way. But most penticostle's and NOW ladies in NTCC are wearing denium skirts. SOmething rw davis forbid. Did not want to appear to look like the penticostle's. Also didn't like the ladies wearing sneakers with there dresses or skirts. Made them look dowdy!
So what is so modest about denium skirts ladies that are still in ntcc or one's out still thinking that is modest????
CM
Jennifer,
that is a very well written article.
You are a thought provoking writer.
You are intelligent and wise.
You and I have our differences, and we are no longer friends.
Even though you dropped me as a friend on fb do to our differences and our arguing, I would like to say that I respect you greatly after reading this article.
You are a woman to be admired regardless of the actions you've taken that I have found fault with.
We can disagree and we can go on as no longer friends, but I want you to know that I respect you.
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