The Case Of The Cursed Spring

Kristofer Moore recently wrote of a story where he installed a garage door tension spring for the NTCC. Kristofer told how Gesang (who represented the NTCC leadership) cheated him out of an honest wage after the work had already been completed. The NTCC leadership has always spoke about people being cursed and the law of sowing and reaping.

Well coincidentally Mike Kekel recently wrote on his blog that an NTCC overseer had been seriously injured while doing guess what? Working on a tension spring of a garage door. Now if someone who left the NTCC had been injured in such a fashion, an NTCC preacher would have proudly stood up behind the pulpit while proclaiming that God had judged and carried out a curse on such an individual. The NTCC leadership has a history of capitalizing on the calamities and misfortunes that occur to people who have left their church.

Ange, a former NTCCstress who posts here figured out that these two stories had a coincidental correlation. She wrote: "I wonder if this was the door Jim L. Johnson was working on when he got knocked off the ladder and broke his hip and arm? Perhaps Kristofer was already gone from ntcc when that happened to Johnson."

Jeff wrote...

Kristofer most certainly would have already been gone from the NTCC. Had the NTCC leadership not treated Kristofer so badly which resulted in him leaving the NTCC, he quite likely would have worked on the spring himself being a professional at such tasks. As a result the accident would have never occurred. Was the accident a direct result of a curse and Gods judgment? I seriously doubt it (even though according to the NTCC leadership such re-concurrences of GAWDs judgment do take place quite often). For sure the NTCC leadership mistreated and ran off Kristopher, (a professional with garage door springs) and had they not done so, and had they paid him an "HONEST" wage, he quite likely would have worked on and fixed the very garage door spring (referenced in the accident) which would have absolutely prevented the injury situation from ever occurring in the first place.

Just food for thought. Actually this thread has nothing to do with food for thought. I wrote this thread to deliberately get underneath the NTCC leaderships skin for all the years that they've proclaimed Gods judgment on everyone else who decided to leave the NTCC and who were later circumstantially affected by some kind of mishap which had nothing to do with Gods judgment, (contrary to the NTCC leaderships grand proclamations).

Jeff

The Submissive Woman By Jennifer Maesner / The Communistic Totalitarian Concentration Camp NTCC Campground Thread

There has been a lot of speculation lately, from many avenues, as to what submission to one's husband truly means. I have seen submission equated with being a doormat, over and over again. I have also seen it equated with "putting your husband on a pedestal" and following blindly. The examples I had growing up led me to believe that submission was expected of a woman, and taken from her, rather than allowing her the choice to give it. I saw dominant husbands take their roles to the extreme. I heard it touted about that the man made the money, and that the woman had no say. One story in particular I remember hearing over the pulpit related from the lips of RWD himself. A man in the church was talking to RW, and RW said that he was thinking about getting a new car, and so they stopped and looked at a dealer's lot. RW was strongly considering buying one particular car, and the brother asked him, "Are you going to talk to your wife about it first?" RW told him in no uncertain terms that HE made the money, and it was HIS, he didn't CARE what his wife thought because HE was the head of the household and she would either fall in line or there would be problems." Another story I heard from him was one in which he was saying that he had no need to look at pornography, because he had a wife. "All I need to do is go home and tell her to get undressed, and she'd better do it," were his exact words. To me this sounded like rape, and neither story really sounded biblical to me. I didn't understand how a person could think this way about his wife. Didn't the Bible say that a man was to love his wife as his own body? I needed a better answer. After years of soul-searching as an adult, I stumbled accidentally onto the literal answer that I felt applied, biblically.

A friend of mine has a daughter who is 11 years old. She is very much a follower. When asked what movie she wants to watch, or kind of dinner she'd like to have, etc, she always just asks to have the choice made for her. Some would see this as weak. These people have not seen her, though, when someone tries to tell her what to do when she did not give them permission to do so. In her last neighborhood, there was a bully. He constantly tried to force her to play the game he wanted to play. She refused and usually went inside. One day, she saw him treating someone else this way, and she got in his face and in no uncertain terms told him exactly what she thought of his controlling attitude.

Her mother and I discussed this, and I pointed out that she will most likely be a very submissive wife. She was concerned, because not all men see submission as something they earn from their wives, but something that is due them for the simple fact that they own a Y chromosome. Then, we started to see, as with the bully, that her daughter was choosy about who was allowed to tell her what to do, and who was not. She gave her submission to those who had earned it - either her parents, by right of them being her parents, or her friends, by right of having been nice to her and earning it. This got me thinking about what true submission is in adults who marry. This is what I came up with. A woman who is submissive to her husband can either chose to do so, or have the choice taken away. When a woman has that choice taken away from her, it is not healthy. She is married to a dominant, control freak husband who must dominate every aspect of his wife's life. The woman who chooses to be submissive takes control of her own life. She finds a man that she feels is strong, and worthy of her trust. By placing her trust in him, she is able to allow him the reins, and be submissive to him.

Sidetrack for a second - because I'm a horse person, everything seems to have analogy in horses :) With horses, they are stronger than you, they can be meaner than you, etc. But if you respect that horse, and do what you can to work with him or her to form a partnership, that horse will trust you for the rest of his or her life, and you can guide where that horse goes, with only a few nudges along the way. But if you are mean to that horse, and completely disrespect it, you will get one of two things. One horse may end up with a broken spirit. He has no real purpose in life other than keeping you from getting angry with him. Another horse may end up taking back the control, and buck you off and refuse to allow you to touch it. Women are the same way. Women who truly feel that they have control over their lives will fight you if you take her for granted, and are rude and disrespectful to her. How can she be successful in raising children according to God's laws, if she and her husband are unable to follow them in their own lives? Women who do not have control of their lives - or feel that they do not - end up broken. Their children end up raised in an unhealthy environment, because how can she raise happy, well adjusted children, when she herself is not? Neither is a good scenario. Women shouldn't think that being submissive means becoming a doormat. It means trusting in your husband to do what is right for your family, and placing yourself under him on the totem pole. It is something only you can do. No one should ever be able to take that choice away from you. But put yourself on the totem pole above him, and you emasculate him, and do not allow him to lead, which is where God wanted him to be.

Men, don't think that submission is a sign of weakness. Your wife is not weak. She is a woman in her own right, with her own personality, her own likes and dislikes, her own opinions. Completely disregard this and you will have one of the 2 previous scenarios. It is a good recipe for disaster. But treat her right, let her know that her opinion matters. I am not suggesting that you drop the reins and become emasculated. It is completely possible to allow your wife to express her opinion, hear her, and then make your decision, even if it is not what she suggested. She will still feel heard and considered, and that is important. It is the mark of a true leader who allows his wife to share her opinion before making his decision.

I want to end this by recapping - it is my choice to be submissive to my husband. He earned my trust before we ever married, by showing me that he was a trustworthy companion, and honest and earnest leader. If he ever destroys that trust, I will take back the reins until he can find the spot God wanted him to be in. This may make me seem defiant to some of you, but I will not be trampled underfoot. That is not the place God gave to me. He gave me the spot of being a helper to my husband, not a slave. He gave me the spot of being my husband's follower, not his doormat. I hope to God this never happens, because it will put me in a very uncomfortable position. But I must place my trust in God that he would lead my husband back to where he needed to be, so that I could then resume being my husband's help meet, the way it was supposed to be.

Jennifer Maesner

The Old Bait And Switch

First picture: The uneven balance indicative of the testimonies written below. Second picure: The three crooks; RWD, Gesang, and Kekel with his expensive guitar. Third picture: Olson after he has told the departing minister to zero out his escrow account.

On Deb Shunk's blog Kristofer Moore wrote...

I went to Graham, fixed the door, and thought of a low price for Gesang that wouldn't be too low for my boss. I said $150. I am pretty sure it was 2 springs I replaced. My boss, sometimes, would go down to $175 on a spring job, but basically that was supposed to be the price of ONE spring. I told Eli the price, and he said, "I don't think so, Brother Moore. We're not gonna do this unless it's gonna be a blessing to us, too." I just said, great. He's gonna get me in trouble with my boss. I just said, I don't care. I'll take the hit, and asked him how much he wanted to pay me. Just give me whatever you want. He said, how about I'll give you a hundred bucks.

Vic Johanson replied...

Kristopher, this reminds me of when I was working for Valley Press in Puyallup, and Mike K. approached me about getting a break on some printing work done for when they were going to open the BS chapel up to the local community. I got samples, and naturally they wanted the most luxurious stock available. They were specifically warned that it would be very expensive, but it was "nothing but the best for God's 'program.'"

I got them a good price, and they were satisfied with the quality of the work, but as soon as they got the bill, they were grumbling and murmuring about how costly it was, trying to get me to chisel my boss (the same Christian boss who had donated hundreds of dollars worth of paper for NTCC's own print shop) for a bigger discount. I made a lukewarm attempt, but they just looked at me like I was nuts and reminded me of how they had specifically issued a warning on the high cost of the requested material and already given them a good deal.

It was very uncomfortable to be placed in that position, but it did serve to alert me to their duplicitous ways. My boss rejoiced with me when I fired them.

Jeff said...

What a bunch of crooks. Those are prime examples of the old bait and switch. It's amazing that the NTCC leadership has the audacity to preach against other sales professions when their own ministers are conducting themselves in such a fashion. I guess RWD taught the NTCC leadership not to exercise honor or good character. I know of a specific instance and I've read about others where NTCC pastors sold cars to their church members for way more then the cars were worth. The above accounts are prime examples of the old bait and switch were a crooked customer comes to a automobile dealership, finds an automobile they want to buy, agrees on a price, and then once the vehicle is detailed, filled up with gas, additional accessories added and the vehicle ready for delivery the customer says, "I won't take delivery of the car unless you take off another $500. It's amazing to me just how crooked these NTCC money grubbers have become.

They deceitfully place scriptures in their doctrinal statement to support tithes such as 1Cor 16:2, which have absolutely nothing to do with tithing. They sell cars to their church members for way more than they are worth. They hire folks to do work for them and after the services have already been rendered, they decline on paying the price determined by the person who performed the service and labor. They buy church buildings with money which has been stored up and accumulated by controlling escrow accounts and then after the building has been purchased, soak the congregation for even more money for items such as new insulation, upgraded church signs, decorative lighting, better pews and the list goes on. They do all this while the whole time creating an atmosphere which results in a continual turnaround of church members and ministers and why? Because it's obvious that the NTCC is not about good will and the saving of souls; the NTCC is about the accumulation of property and once that has been done, if the souls don't like it, "THERE IS THE DOOR". We were all duped and it is obvious when you read the testimonies above. RWD has created a select group of conniving, money grubbing crooks which are stark reminders of the money changers that Christ rebuked in the temple. The more I learn about the NTCC and its leaders, the more I despise the organization.

Jeff Collins

NTCC Jargon

In a previous thread CM wrote...

Jeff, A a new topic to discuss; NTCC jargon sayings that are so BOGUS! Example: "You will never be the same once you leave NTCC. Once you've heard the word of God preached while in NTCC; you will never be the same."

Jeff said....

That is a great idea. I have one, and it was one of Olson's favorites. "We're winning".

I always thought that saying was bogus even when I was "IN" the NTCC. How in the world were we "winning" when half the NTCC pastors were running folks off no sooner than they came through the church doors? How in the world were we winning when the local church pastor was constantly begging for more money to purchase a church sign or to have more insulation installed in the attic, or to have enough toilet paper in the latrine, or because the church rent was already past-due? How were we winning when a visiting pastor, (Bro Solomon) stood up and testified that he had no clue where the money would come from that was needed in order to take care of his families basic necessities and keep the lights on? Then to add insult to injury, L.D. Jones stood up and critiqued Solomon's testimony by suggesting that Solomon didn't have enough faith and that Solomon had placed restrictions on Gods full potential to provide for our needs.

If that's what the NTCC calls "winning", I wonder what they consider loosing? I know, leaving their sorry organization because as long as you are renting one of RWD's houses (that you will never own or consider yours), living from paycheck to paycheck, driving an old broke down automobile, eating vienna sausages, and wondering where the money is come from to keep the lights on, "YOU'RE WINNING"!

Jeff

Fear; The Main Tactic Used By Cult Leaders In An Attempt To Prevent Members From Leaving Their Church. Let's Dispel the Myth

The number 1 stumbling block for many who desire to leave the NTCC is "fear". For decades NTCC leaders have taught that if you leave their church you will be cursed and judged. In doing so they have equated leaving their church to leaving God. NTCC leaders have even gone as far as saying that "if you leave the NTCC you've left God". Through time they have used a few isolated examples highlighting someone's misfortune (which circumstantially happened after the individual left the NTCC) in an attempt to prove their hypothesis.

Understand that this a typical cult tactic used by many different cults in an attempt to prevent members from leaving their church. Experts have stated that one of the main signs in identifying a cult is when a church leader equates leaving their church to leaving God. That makes perfect sense because it's obvious that the Creator of the universe, AKA God, is a whole lot bigger than any particular church group. Leaving RWD is not leaving God regardless of what that crook RWD teaches. Leaving the NTCC is not leaving God regardless of what many NTCC yes men have taught, and I've personally heard them teach that mess.

The fact is the vast majority of people who have left the NTCC live far more productive lives than they ever lived while they were a part of the NTCCs organization. A good friend recommended that I start this thread and he suggested that I ask participators and readers of this blog to give specific examples of how your life has improved since you've left the NTCC. I will begin with examples of my own.

For the record, I've heard various NTCC pastors openly state that If you leave the NTCC, you are leaving God. It was relayed to me by a Brother who also left the NTCC that Oberhauser told him that my family would be cursed because we left the NTCC. Here is a brief break down of my life during and after involvement with the NTCC.

With the NTCC, hardly any family time. After the NTCC, more and quality family time. With the NTCC, tight on money. After the NTCC, more available cash flow without doubt. With the NTCC hardly any vacations or time away other than conference where I could go to hear RWD say, "if you don't like it here there is the door" while stating that "he was there first." We are preparing to go visit my Mom in New York and this past summer we took a vacation at a lake resort which would have certainly resulted in a guilt triping / blasting by many NTCC pastors. It was ok however for the Mayers to leave their church so they could go on a vacation to Disney World / Universal Studios. Hypocrites. Since we left the NTCC, my children have a much, much better quality of life just like Grant Kekel has had all along. Friendships with people no longer hing upon us having to remain a part of their church. To sum it up, life has been much better without the rigorous rules that were mandated by crooked NTCC pastors. Rules which have obviously not been followed by the Kekels and many other NTCC pastors. Information on the internet has proved all this.

Yes life is much better and far more enjoyable since we've left the NTCC so if that is a curse I'll take it. I'm no longer interested in following double standard, abusive hypocrites like RWD and Olson and there ain't no way that my wife is going to be used to clean the Kekels house.

Jeff