Let me tell you how I know for sure that with RWD and the NTCC leadership, it's not about saving souls. Please read what I'm about write and consider my words. When Bro Bean brought his brother TB over to RWD's house, RWD may not have wanted company and I understand that. But when you are a Christian and your life is devoted to saving souls it's not about what you always want. You make sacrifices and deny yourself for the sake of others. So here is my logic.RWD is a smart guy and I don't dispute that. He reads people and he often knows what makes people tick. RWD knew that if he gave Bro Bean's brother anything but a warm hearted, sincere welcome, (even though RWD didn't want someone coming over to his house) it could have an impact on TB's decision to have anything else to do with the NTCC. Then, in addition to that guaranteed fact, RWD is smart enough to know that when he sent someone to Bro Bean to notify him that he was wrong for going to RWD house, that TB would never have anything to do with the NTCC. You don't give a guy the cold shoulder and expect him to come back to your church and RWD knows that good and well. So why didn't RWD just suck it up, invite the guy in for coffee and cookies, make him feel at home, and never say a word to Bro Bean about coming to his house uninvited?
Because with RWD, it's not about souls. RWD simply didn't care if the mans brother ever came back to the NTCC and that is the reason he didn't even think twice about acting that way. The only thing that RWD cared about was not being bothered while making sure that it didn't happen again!!! All RWD is worried about is his privacy, the control he has over others, and making sure that the NTCC continues to bring in at least enough money to take care of his investments within the corporation. He doesn't have the time or patience for people to come over to his house unannounced, period. If you don't want people to come over to your house, move farther away from your cult compound and in the process forget about being a pastor/Christian leader. You are in the wrong field. Rename it the New Testament Christian Real-Estate Corporation. Take church out of the equation. RWD is a jerk. For years RWD has taught that every single solitary thing you do can affect souls but he doesn't even attempt to practice that himself when it counts. He'll run you away from his church in a heart beat before you even start coming.
How can anyone dispute what I just wrote? There could be nothing more logical in this world. If your church is the last hope for mankind, (which the NTCC has constantly maintained) and you care about souls, the last thing you would do is give a brand new guest the cold shoulder and that is exactly what RWD did to TB. RWD doesn't care about souls, he cares about control. He already has money so that is not as important to him as it is to have control over people.
Believe me when I tell you this, SOME PEOPLE LOVE POWER!!!!!! SOME PEOPLE LOVE POWER AND AUTHORITY!!!! SOME PEOPLE THRIVE ON HAVING POWER, AUTHORITY AND CONTROL OVER OTHERS BECAUSE IT'S LIKE AN EMOTIONAL HIGH.
RWD is that kind of guy and I'll guarantee it without doubt. I don't agree with it but I understand it and this is why? Because I used to work for a 3 Star General and everywhere we went people figuratively bowed down to that dude and because I was his enlisted escort / Aide, I got much of the same treatment. Everywhere we went people laid the red carpet out for us and because I was his right hand man, I got much of the same treatment. When people saw me they knew he wasn't far behind and I got treated like a King and I'm not kidding. The difference between me and RWD is that I didn't misuse my authority and RWD does constantly. I didn't treat people like they were beneath me and RWD does constantly. You think I didn't have authority? Out of over 17,000 people in Second Infantry Division, (not because of my rank but because of my position) I was one of the most powerful people in the entire Division. Full Colonels and General Officers treated me with MUCH respect because of who I worked for. If I told a Brigade Commander that the General wanted something to happen it was like it was coming directly from the General himself because people knew that I was his assistant. No one messed with me so I fully understand what it's like to have some SERIOUS Authority.
Well RWD has authority and he is a control freak and a bully and I know what I'm talking about. He doesn't care about souls. Listen to what I'm saying people. He cares about POWER, AUTHORITY, and CONTROL. These three and the greatest of these is none of them for a Christian servant. You can't understand others until you've walked in their shoes and where POWER, AUTHORITY and CONTROL is concerned I've walked in RWD's shoes. For the brief period of time that I had it (which was one year), I didn't let it get to my head. I'm currently working in a high level management position and I treat everyone with respect regardless of their position. And guess what, everyone I work with treats me the same way from the lowest to the highest. That is how you earn respect. Not by barking out orders. RWD is a control freak bully leader who is a good business man and that is all he is. I know guys like him because I work around one and no one respects him, they fear him. God help me to never become that kind of leader.
That is why I said I'd spit on RWD's front door step. My previous vulgar display of words was a deliberate show of disrespect toward RWD as a result of his disregard for Bro. Bean's family.
Jeff
319 comments:
1 – 200 of 319 Newer› Newest»Bingo! And we're not talking about the farmer's dog here either. You are %100 correct here, Jeff. You know who else craves power? satan. That's what got lucifer kicked out of heaven. he wanted to be God. And so does r w davis and kekel. There is absolutely no difference. Check it out for yourself: Isa 14v12-21 and Luke 10v18. davis has his dynasty; don't deny it; kekel has his kingdom kreated by kooks and krazies who'd rather worship man than God.
Their end will be the same as satan's, slithering snakes.
David Bean and I used to work at Spanaway Lumber. "Remember those 'one shots' David?" Man that ain't a job you want to keep unless you would have been on one of those machines!
That green chain was brutal. Me, Pugh, Will, Garay, & Bogus, worked there to name a few. The place has closed down since.
Their end will be the same as satan's, slithering snakes
Actually, satan would be more of a Gentleman because his homo self would be flattered by all the attention!!
satan would also cover his tracks better.
There is a story about a litte boy who was found by a man wearing a robe outside of a church.
The Man said, "Little boy, why are you crying?"
The Litte boy said, "They kicked me out of the church today"
The man said, "Little Boy, my name is Jesus, I know exactly how you feel. They kicked me out of that Church a long time ago"
Bro Johnson
Bro. Johnson said:
"Little Boy, my name is Jesus, I know exactly how you feel. They kicked me out of that Church a long time ago"
Don and Ange said,
"The ntcc has kicked a lot of good Christian people out of their church. I know that it's a narrow path but they have made it much narrower and they will be the last ones to make it in except they repent. They have trodden all over people not needing excuses for their destructive ways.
If you are a Christian that has been hurt by some minister in the ntcc, you needn't worry because they have done the same and more to Christ. If you have been run off from a church in the ntcc, don't worry, they have run Jesus off long before they ran you off.
I see people like ntcc leaders everyday in the world. They are sinners that talk down to others and ridicule them because they feel that they are inherently better than them. It makes them feel good to tear down others so that they can feel good about themselves. There is no difference in rwd or kekel tearing folks down publicly and ridiculing them to make others laugh at their calamity, so they can sleep good at night knowing they got some amens and some admiration. It makes me sick. I don't treat people like that because I remember how degrading it was to be on the receiving end of that garbage.
Don and Ange
Jeff,
When I look on your home page it says there are 360 comments on the "Life is Good" thread. But then it just says there are 352 comments when you go to the last page of the thread. I responded to Rev. Briggs, and was trying to see if he responded to me. Is it my computer? Are mine and your comments this morning (3/10) the last ones?
Thanks
Some of this has go do with the different web browsers that we use. Different web browsers allow and generate different things. One particular web browser, will post a message but not contribute to the comment total. Another web browser allows me to manipulate the dimensions JPEG images I attach to each thread right on the edit page without having to use photoshop.
So what I'm saying is there will be a difference between comment numbers. This is a Google blog and the use of Google Chrome prevents some of this stuff but I for one don't particularly care for Google Chrome. I don't like windows explorer either.
Jeff
Buy the way everyone: There were three more messages in the spam folder this morning. I posted them all.
Jeff
My heart part 1
This might cause some friction but this has really been eating at me, I guess I just can't believe with Rev. Davis and N.T.C.C. that it is never about souls. I really do believe there are times all hearts can have problems, motives need checked and God needs to soften those hearts but this happens to us all.
I really do not believe any of these men can have a blanket statement thrown over them just like I can not have one thrown over me. There are things I do disagree with that Rev. Davis said. Like I can't remember the last time I sinned. If he was referring to a sin in particular saying he couldn't remember the last time he did one particular type of sin that would be fine but none of us is blameless and there are times we can sin without even knowing it and then God reveals it to us later.
There are times the men of God have done things that have hurt and confused me. There was one time Rev. Kinson got upset with me and he sincerely apologized to me and I knew he meant it and I forgave him whole heartily (the fact that he took the time to apologize to me spoke to me and showed me how humble he was I was just a Bible school student at that time).
All the men of God are just humans and make mistakes its when they act like they are infallible that it hurts people. I know in my heart there were times with men of God that it was not all about them and about souls. We had one time Pastor Davis drove down just to see us when we were having a particular battle and came and sat in our home at this time we had pets he even seemed like he very much liked our pet.
There have been times Pastor Davis has been very very comforting. One time my husband was one the verge of feeling like he had had enough with trying to build the church over and over again and was feeling like it was time to move on and in his heart he was kind of feeling like a failure. Pastor Davis called him up and told him in these exact word they were the first words he said YOU ARE NOT A FAILURE. Pastor Davis told my husband how his life spoke to people and he saw it when he went to the restaurant that my husband worked at. He told my husband that he looked at him as one that gave everything of himself and referred to some gave all. I know some said they were told the complete opposite but we were always dealt with in complete and utter love.
Honesty there were times that teaching confused me but maybe I was taking harsher things and directing them at myself when they were not intended for me. I did really get to the point where I had to stop reading my Bible school notes because I would be depressed all day thinking I was a failure and could not stop weeping. But with all this said when it came down to the way Pastor treated us it was in love.
my heart part 2
There was a time Rev. Ashmore really hurt my feelings badly but he also apologized but it still hurts and is hard to forget but there were several times he utterly gave money to keep our revivals going and rejected all the offerings and even paid for his own RV.parking because he wanted to.
All I am saying is these men do make mistakes its just when they act like they don't that it confuses and causes battles. I am just speaking from my experiences. With all this said I do believe there is a lack of balance in many ways and too much weight is placed one a small group of men that serious issues fall through the cracks that caused people like my husband and I do get hurt tremendously. But I persoanlly can't believe these our just men hell bent on making money and sucking all the life out of us and that they are never about winning souls. I believe there needs to be a lot more sicere appolgies though and things needs to change. I persoally could not stick around 15 years waitng for this change to take place when serious issues were slipping through the cracks. The church needs more structure and MORE COMMUNICATION. I believe a lot (A LOT) of issues come from miscommunication. And I do know there are some people with heart problems in the org who take advantage of the little people which I am gainst but personally I can not say that most of these minsiters don't care about souls. I do believe though they need to be careful and rememer the scripture about not being Lords over Gods Heritage. I believe the legalism in N.T.C.C. creates a environment for there to be Lords over Gods hertige though. I definitely also am fully against the notion of some that you can not be saved when you leave N.T.C.C. because God is so much bigger than that and that notion is cultish.
Sincerely Shonda Cannon
Wow, very interesting points Shonda.
Thank you for sharing that.
Shonda,
That's what humbled me is when my Pastor apologized at conference. There were some many times I wanted to stick my finger in his face and say "yeah..I told you so" when someone of authority was preaching from the pulpit.
Sometimes I get fed up with this blog and want some people to take the higher road. However, its difficult to take the higher road, when you do not take care what is under the bridge first. Whatever that may be. In my case it was anger and resentment in how people were treated.
Shonda,
Time for me to play devil's advocate here. Take what I am saying with a grain of salt, but do not take it personally, it is what it is.
You feel too much weight is placed on a small group of men?
They placed that weight on themselves. If they can't stand the heat, then they need to get out of the kitchen. Obviously, they like the heat. They better get used to it. Hellfire is hotter.
You believe there needs to be sincere apologies and things need to change?
Good luck sleeping on that one. NTCC has had 30 years PLUS to Sincerely Apologize but their actions (Which equate to cursing, not apologizing at you TO YOUR FACE) speak louder than words.
Apologies are not enough. Sorry to burst your bubble, but NTCC is hell bent on a different doctrine now that MC Kekel is at the helm, and it is full compromise speed ahead.
NTCC needs to go back the way they were. Preaching the Truth to Youth with Holy Spirit Power! Sounded good on paper, the emblem looked good on my jacket, but this broke down car don't run no more.
Don't take this the wrong way, but women are more emotional than men. Men? We do stupid stuff sometimes and are blind to the obvious (Thank God for you Women to keep us on the Right Path).
Your just another victim that thankfully jumped from the NTCC frying pan. NTCC could care less about you and they don't give a hoot.
Is NTCC paying your bills? No.
Is NTCC paying for your house payment? No.
Did NTCC give you ONE CENT today? No.
Is NTCC even praying for you? No.
Is NTCC going to use their weight to assist you or your husband for a financial promotion? No.
Is NTCC going to give you money if you OR I go homeless? No.
Did NTCC do anything while you were in the Ministry towards your financial well-being? No.
Is NTCC going to show up for your funeral or mine? No.
They never cared, they never did, and they never will. All in the name of a measly buck, forget about your soul, your just a pawn just like I am to them, even more so less since you and I are out.
As NTCC says, GET OVER IT!!!
That is pretty harsh, isn't it? Not all that glitters is gold, and NTCC is NOT that castle glistening on a shiny hill (Sorry Reagan!)
RW Davis may have appeared to care, but the Wizard of NTCC executes all actions with the future consequence in mind, ultimately what move can he make so that he ALWAYS has the upper hand.
Bro Johnson
Here is how ONE DOLLAR given in the offering plate circulates in NTCC:
Regardless of where the money goes, understand YOU are One Dollar Less Rich and SOMEONE ELSE Is.
(1) You give a hard earned dollar in the offering plate
(2) Offering plate is collected
(3) Your money is counted along with the others
(4) Your money will then (a) Go to Graham (b) Go to the Preacher to spend/save (c) Pay for a bill
(5) If (a) Then (1) It will go into an escrow account or (2) It will go into MC Kekel's or another loyal kiss butt General Board NTCC Preacher's pocket or (3) It will pay for MC Kekel's house in Saint Louis or Graham or (4) It will pay for Grant Kekel's education or (5) It will pay for further construction on the compound or (6) It will go into Tanya's checking or savings account or (7) MC Kekel will place it in the offering plate. When this happens, then (5) (a) will happen all over again, thus the cycle repeats.
***Note*** Any money that an NTCC Preacher gives to a church member ultimatly is spent, so the member is NOT BLESSED BY THE GIVING.
Again, NTCC is a not-for-profit organization, but their Profit comes directly from YOU. The MORE you give, the MORE they profit.
In the Military, the only way you will get an increase in pay is (1) you get promoted (2) You get a pay settlement from DFAS (3) You win the lottery [VERY COOL] (4) You collect money from an outside source.
(6) If (4) (a) Kiss your money goodbye and MC Kekel is laughing at you and he is One Dollar richer than you. If (4) (b) the Preacher is living the good life. If (4) (c) then Kiss your money goodbye.
(7) (6) (4) (b) is only correct if the Preacher is in the Graham area, OR is a successful Preacher in NTCC. Otherwise, the NTCC Preacher is BROKE.
Just remember: One Dollar given to NTCC means One Less Dollar you have which means Tens or Hundreds of Dollars you deprive yourself of Retirement Savings if you invested that ONE DOLLAR smartly.
If more than One Dollar is given, you will become more exponentially pissed off!!
Bro Johnson
Shonda said...
"All the men of God"
Jeff said...
I know how you feel but I now longer see the NTCC leadership as "Men of God". I don't see that at all. I don't see them as being any different than Joe the common man that you see everyday on the street. So they wear wing tip shoes, white shirts, suits and they go to church all the time and they've been doing it for years.
That doesn't make someone a man of God. They way they act is what makes them men of God. What they stand for is what makes them men of God. What they stand against is what makes them men of God. Someone who covers up hypocrisy and sin, (which they do) lives and practices double standards, (which they do) practices nepotism constantly, (which they do and have done for years) becomes disqualified from being considered men of God.
They act like the Pharisees. Jesus didn't call them "men of God". He called them hypocrites, whited sepulchers, generation of vipers, but not men of God!!!! Shonda, these guys are crooks and they don't care about souls. They care about numbers and money as was taught by RWD. They have no problem sending you packing because they know another sucker is waiting right around the corner.
RWD runs folks off constantly. If an NTCC minister isn't profiting the organization RWD has no problem getting rid of him and his overseers back him all the way. What they do is make your life so miserable that you finally leave and then they say you didn't love God. Shonda, you know you and I are cool but I do believe they don't care about souls. They care about money and what you can do for their organization and they gauge what you do according to the amount of money you bring into their church and RWD said so openly in conference.
They don't care how nice you are. They don't care how faithful you are. They don't care how loving you are. They care about two things. How many people you bring into their church and how much money you bring into their church and that is not caring about souls.
Jeff
Can anyone tell me what would be wrong with the church having a complete financial disclosure? Tell the people how much money has come in and where EVERY penny
goes? one financial statement disclosure for each month. Nobody has a response for this?
Bro Johnson
Sometimes I forget about that actions do speak louder than words. I had a sincere apology from some one in the church one time only to have them go back to treating me the same way two weeks later. They treated me the same way because they did not really repent (change). Actions do speak louder than words. I want the ship wreak of others to speak to my life in this way and make sure I show my love through action.
Shonda Cannon
Jeff
I read what you said
What they do is make your life so miserable that you finally leave and then they say you didn't love God.
I actually thought about this and it really cut me to the heart and hurt. Rev. Olson knew there were some things in the org. that we openly told him we did not agree with and that we did not want to mandate certain convictions of the org to our members. It made me wonder if maybe this is why nothing was done and if truly indeed what you are saying is correct in my case.
Not trying to get you to feel sorry for me but my shingles pains which I had in respite due to all the stress are starting to hurt really bad again they say the pain can stay with you for a couple of years after the fact. They said I was pretty young to have had the shingles (28). The other day they (the shingles pain)made me remember all the heartache that brought them on. I actually began to feel angry at the person who had had put me under all the stress that caused them in the first place. I talked about it to God and hopefully I'll keep talking about it with him because this person is living their life right now and probably never even thinks of me. The least I can do is move on and live life in Christ and let him bring me joy and comfort
Shonda.
Shonda,
right now your thinking way to much with the right side of your brain (emotions, concepts, colors, feelings etc) you need to step back for a moment and stop 'reminiscing' about the "good old days" they were never good because of ntcc, they seemed good because of Jesus. ntcc is what made your christian experience bad.
As far as the sincerity of the leaders goes...it is really no different than when Jimmy Swaggart feigned repentance, he knew it was something he had to do to maintain status and position. You CANNOT judge someone's sincerity based on there emotional portrayal. You MUST judge (yes, we must judge all things) them according to repentance. have they:
1. Repented of living the arrogant lifestyle?
2. Have they sought to make restitution for all the money that was taken and misused?
3. Do they still use the pulpit to control people?
4. Do they still live in the mansions and drive the fancy cars?
5. Did they return the money that was taken unlawfully from the corporate body of ntcc?
We must judge righteous judgement, don't be deceived by your emotions, Satan always attacks emotions to manipulate people away from the facts presented in the word of God.
You can still love these people. Loving them does not mean feeling happy thoughts about there corrupt lifestyle. True love will attempt to help them escape this corrupt demonic system.
BTW- I have family in ntcc, the whole family knows what they are into and decieved by, but most of the family don't have the guts to tell them the truth and just ignore there ntcc stupidity or laugh it off and say "they won't listen anyway" I don't buy that foolishness, I love them and I WILL tell them the truth. I have prayed, in the past, that God kill Kekel, but I realize that God is longsuffering and even wants Kekel to repent, while I am only concerned about my family.
Sincerely,
TB
TB said...
I have prayed, in the past, that God kill Kekel,
Jeff said...
Wow Bro. You really don't like the NTCC! I'm not trying to put you down but that is one prayer that I haven't made. I don't want God to kill any of them. Frankly I'm convinced that God simply allows virtually all people to do what they do in life. Adolph Hitler, Saddam Hussein and so on. There are some wicked people in this world who God simply allows to remain that way. Murders, rapists, arsonists and also the abusive money manipulators who make up the NTCC. During the time of the protestant reformation church leaders were burning people alive by the thousands. More often than not, God doesn't stop wicked people from performing their deeds and the NTCC knows this.
God has allowed innocent people to fall victim to wicked people for centuries. This pattern is nothing new. That's why this blog is here. God is patient even with the NTCC but I'm not and God doesn't expect me to be. I'm getting the word out right here. RWD is a crook!! Olson is a weak, suck up, no back bone, pawn, enabling, piece of garbage. That is Olson. Pastor Kekel? Just a smart dude who likes money and power and the big fat silver spoon that's been stuck in his mouth by RWD and he ain't going to give it up.
Most people wouldn't. Kekel will inherit millions and millions and millions. The biggest problem that I have with Kekel is that his wealth has come off the backs of some really good people. Other than that, can you blame the guy for marrying into wealth and sticking with it? How else will Kekel ever live this kind of lifestyle? Outside of RWD and Tanya, he won't.
Anyway, I think anyone would be wasting their time with praying that God would take anyone out of the picture. God seems to let people do what they do and these NTCCers have been at it for about 4 decades. Hey, crooks get by for a long time and some manage to keep up with their crookedness till the day they die of old age. I'm not waiting on judgment, with Gods help and this blog, I'm bringing it and I'm right.
Jeff
I see it is still the same handful of people cheering each other on - waiting like the spider in her web for someone to drop in for lunch.
Well, I am not hear for lunch.
I do want to say this discussion is way to one sided (except for Shonda).
I believe Shonda is sincere and also that she make's some very valid points that are often ignored or shuffled under the rug to attempt to make NTCC look as bad as this blog is capable of doing.
I have had various ministers apologize to me for various reasons.
No, NTCC is not perfect. Everyone, including the leadership - do not always make the right choices.
Let he among you who always makes the right choices cast the first stone...
I have also seen "The Men of God" make personal sacrifices for the sake of the church and it's members... and wait for it - yes even for "dirty lost sinners" that they did not even know or barely knew; whatever the case may be.
Why sacrifice? They did it for the sake of one or more "souls".
I have seen Pastor Davis helping a brother wash his car - even though Pastor Davis was already paying that brother to wash the car.
I have consistently seen the leadership take action to ensure that "souls" were not being taken advantage of by others with lesser convictions.
Yes, it takes money to operate a church - but the church in general - to include NTCC in general - is not about "the money".
Pastor Davis told me something in the last few years that I think we would all do well to take heed to:
"I used to think things had to be a certain way - but now I realize I was wrong" - Pastor Davis
Yes - I am serious.
I don't really expect the handful that drive this blog to appreciate my post - but my hope is precious souls who are hurting and searching for answers will see that there is so much more to the story than Jeff, Johnson, or the others will admit to.
Sincerely,
Just another unaccredited preacher trying to make it to Heaven and help some others along the way - so they can make it too.
P.S. - There is still a love for souls in NTCC - you don't see it, because you don't want to see it.
Anonymous said,
"I used to think things had to be a certain way - but now I realize I was wrong" - Pastor Davis
While it is noble that he has recognized his wrongs, it is difficult to see the sincerity in repeated blanket apologizes
-requests of how certain monies were spent have been ignored. restitution has not been offered.
-persons that were falsely accused in public have not been cleared in a public forum
-double standards have not been recognized or explained
Someone said... "While it is noble that he has recognized his wrongs, it is difficult to see the sincerity in repeated blanket apologizes"
I accept blanket apologies.
No problem.
Why belabor it?
I often find myself apologizing to people - but I do not expect everyone who has regrets about their actions to come to me... so I can grant them forgiveness.
I already know about God's mercy in my life... i already want the same for them - regardless of any personal apology on their behalf.
What is so wrong with that?
So you have been abused, I have too.
Okay. Let God have mercy & may He bless you. Fine. I understand it.
I would say Pastor Davis has been abused much more than most.
He doesn't complain about it.
He prays for people & forgives them.
I have seen it with my own two eyes on more occasions than I can remember (is it a sin to talk about memory loss?), anyway...
I say we show Pastor Davis the mercy we want God to show us - personal apology or not.
Let he among you who always makes the right choices cast the first stone...
Does that saying also include people who can't remember the last time they sinned? Does it also Include the people who say that they have never missed God, and that everything that they do is by the Holy Ghost?
Anonymous (unaccredited preacher) said:
"No, NTCC is not perfect. Everyone, including the leadership - do not always make the right choices."
Don and Ange said,
You think? The small little insignificant handful of X-ers that comment on this blog represent a larger number of people that have been used and manipulated for decades. There are thousands whose lives have been ruined that are afraid of you and people like you and your leaders because it has been preached that to disagree with the ntcc is equivalent to dying and going to hell.
This blog dares to call you out on your lies. As people read this blog and others like it, they are treated to undeniable proof that the ntcc is a cult. Not only is the ntcc a cult, it is an abusive and destructive cult that accomplishes nothing for the "lost souls" other than indoctrinating them into a money driven organization that controls people with fake love and the fear of hell for the purpose of making a few rich. The vast majority of ntcc'rs become X-ers. If you don't believe me, go back 2 or 3 decades and see how many have left and compare that number to all that have been in church and whose left today.
One in 500 people invited out to your cult stays longer than a couple of years. You and your minions of super spiritual perfect beings attribute this to your own holiness standards that set you apart from all the normal people. A litmus test to see if someone is really in. If you put as much emphasis on Showing people the love of Christ instead of rebuking, humiliating and blasting them from your hobby horse behind the pulpit, you might be doing something for God. You and the leaders you serve are hateful towards God's people and you can't cover it up.
Don and Ange
you win, Mark G.
Anonymous said,
"Just another unaccredited preacher trying to make it to Heaven and help some others along the way - so they can make it too."
Don and Ange said,
Trying to make it to heaven? Is it really that hard or do you serve a God that is not able to keep you? What kind of help do you really have to offer others so that they can make it to heaven? I know that you are capable of making people realize that they are lost. That's the first step. Then what? Take them down romans road? That's all fine and dandy, but what do you really do to help people?
Eventually everyone in the ntcc gets thrown under the bus unless you are a board member and even then you have to willing to be treated like dung. If you were so concerned about "trying to get others to heaven", you'd be out pounding the streets right now, and knocking on hundreds of doors. But no....., you have chosen to come into an environment that you have absolutely no control over and find fault with people that have nothing nice to say about you, your cult and it's leaders.
Do you ever think of why it is that we and others like us invest so much time into warning people to stay away from the abusive and destructive cult called the ntcc? We know the ntcc and it's leaders are rotten and horrible. We know that they make a living out of manipulating and destroying peoples lives for filthy lucre.
Good try anonymous. We don't have any reason to cry any tear drops for poor rwd that has been abused worse than anyone and has forgiven the masses. Who is he to forgive us anyway? Is he the pope? Only God forgives sins. We haven't wronged him or you. We were the ones that were taken advantage of so he can drive his motor home from city to city, pointing his finger in peoples faces and blasting them for not bowing down to him.
You think that we are the unreasonable ones? We are supposed to forgive and forget? By the grace of God we live another day to fight against the likes of you. You are not just our enemy, but you are the enemy of everyone that has been spiritually manipulated in the ntcc. My prayer is that God will show mercy to everyone who truly repents. This, I have not seen in the ntcc. No apologies, no admitting any wrong doing, no trying to help someone who has left the ntcc. People are told not even to talk or show any human decency to those who leave. The ntcc leaves people without any hope and only if they can figure out that they were had by a bunch of crooks and realize that God has no part in such an abusive organization, will they ever find their way back to God.
Don and Ange
Peter didn't seem to think it was all that easy.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Don & Angie & The rest of the House of Collin's:
Sometimes, it seems to me that you guys come across as if you think you are the "super-apostles".
just sayin
All the ntcc pharisees are coming out of the woodwork now!! this is good, bring it on.
Jeff, for the record, I had prayed that in the past, and realized my error. Like I said, God may even want to show grace to Kekel...he shows grace to the people he chooses apart from my approval..lol
TB
Hey, TB for the record it is a pharasee that would pray something like "kill them". And you want to point fingers here?
What about the fella on the other thread asking for the motor homes to get "jacked".
Wow getting classy... real classy... keep showing me how the Love of Christ really works. Cuz I know you're pushing me ever more to make the decission to be "JUST LIKE YOU".
Good point Robert.
RB said...
Hey, TB for the record it is a pharasee that would pray something like "kill them". And you want to point fingers here?
Jeff said...
Is that any different than RWD praying that God rain fire and brimstone down on anyone who would compromise the NTCC's standards? RWD said it in conference. What is the difference? TB, make sure then next time you make a prayer like that you ask God to rain fire and brimstone down on Mr. Kekel. That way you'll be justified just like RWD. You got to be more spiritual with your prayers TD. You know, more religious. You can't just get straight to the point by asking God to kill someone. Fire and Brimstone Bro, fire and brimstone. Ha, ha.
Jeff
Better point Jeff.
Anonymous said...
Sometimes, it seems to me that you guys come across as if you think you are the "super-apostles".
Jeff said...
Hows that? I'm not trying to be religious. I said that I'd spit on RWD's front door step. The Apostles wouldn't say something like that. I'm not trying to be religious at all. I just call a crook a crook. Your logic is nonexistent. How about super judgmental? You know like all your NTCC buddies. That would be more accurate. The only difference is, your NTCC buddies won't judge the NTCC leadership and I will. They judge everyone else though. They are the super apostles not me. I'm no longer running around with wing tips and white shirts saying, "God bless you and I'm praying for you" fifty times in one day.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
I see it is still the same handful of people cheering each other on - waiting like the spider in her web for someone to drop in for lunch.
Jeff said...
And I see it's the same handful of hypocrites running your church corporation. I see it's the same handful off crooks winding up with all the money that your churches bring in. I see it's the same handful of abusive leaders who get their houses cleaned by a whole bunch of different church members and ministers. I see it's the same handful of manipulators who live in big fat houses while watching their church members and ministers try to figure out how to get to conference because they don't have enough money.
Hup. It's the same handful here and the same handful there. I'm just glad to be part of this handful and not yours. Now go and have fun sucking up to your leaders. "RWD can I shine your shoes"? "Rev Olson, you sure were a blessing". "Pastor Kekel, God sure did bless me with your message". "I'll bend over for all three of you if you'd like?" "Do you need anyone to clean your house and wash your dirty underwear? My wife is available".
Why don't you go suck up to Mr. Kekel for a while. So RWD is admitting that he's made mistakes? So you are saying that he lied when he said that everything he does is by the direction of the Holy Ghost? So the big blow hard is admitting that he's been wrong after insisting that he never missed God for the last 40 years? He sure did miss something and I think it was common decency. Yeah that is what he missed. Thats alright. As long as there are suckers like you to buy off on his hollow apology he can keep a steady flow of cash coming into his church.
Jeff
To The House of Collin's:
We have noticed that you are no longer "religious"; i guess.
Sure, you doctrine is harsh and lacking compassion to say the least.
However, it does seem you have found a source of righteousness for your self - your cause to destroy NTCC has become your righteousness.
Same mistake the Jews made by going about to establish their own righteousness, they became ignorant of the righteousness of God.
Followers of Jesus do forgive and hope for mercy.
Quit bringing up the past.
Thank God for His mercy & forgiveness in your life and hope for mercy for NTCC.
What is so wrong with that?
Anon said:
"Same mistake the Jews made by going about to establish their own righteousness, they became ignorant of the righteousness of God.
Followers of Jesus do forgive and hope for mercy.
Quit bringing up the past.
Thank God for His mercy & forgiveness in your life and hope for mercy for NTCC.
What is so wrong with that?"
TB says:
For the record, that "house of Collins stuff" is pure pharisee material!
I just can't seem to see what is wrong with earnestly contending for the truth?! (that's in the Bible, look up Jude)
What we have in common here is we have seen and experienced the false teaching, covetousness and self-righteousness that has destroyed countless lives. Many of you will one day be on here or more likely have your own blog or website earnestly warning people!! Someday you may thank us for driving you to consider your future, for bringing you face to face with a harsh reality that you really don't want to face!!
Also, Yes RB, I have been a pharisee at times, I realize it and confess it to the Lord. I am not sure if praying for God to be rid of Kekel is being a pharisee though. I mean it would seem to save many people from a horrible life. But on the other hand, God may be using Kekel like he did pharaoh to show his power! I know it is not my place to tell God what to do, yet we all tend to try that at times. I think most people, if they are honest, would admit having prayed that God kill or remove someone at one time or another, when it just seems like nothing else will work...
I make no apologies for the things I say on here. I absolutely despise ntcc and can see clearly how it destroys people while offering them a false sense of "working for God" or worse "working to get into heaven" whoever said that obviously knows nothing of the doctrine of soteriology. "IT IS FINISHED" Jesus has completed the work.
That is one of Davis' false doctrines, "trying to get to heaven" it goes all the way back to bad roman catholic doctrine!!
Thanks Jeff for sticking up for me!
TB
House of ANON:
You so nobly stated,
Quit bringing up the past.
Thank God for His mercy & forgiveness in your life and hope for mercy for NTCC.
What is so wrong with that?
NTCC is like a dog that keeps on pooping on the carpet. Do you know how you put a stop to that, you grab that dog and RUB HIS NOSE IT HIS POOP.
That way the dog will remember not to poop on the carpet.
Why do you want us to "quit bringing up the Past"
If we fail to study the Past then we are bound to repeat it.
Oh, I get it. You were not around when we all lived by a stricter code of NTCC rules.
Bet you could not live like we did back in the day without falling apart.
It is harder for someone to conform to a standard that they never had to worry about.
So, using your logic, you want everything NTCC did in the past to just stay in the Past.
Ok, for proper measure I would have had a 9 year old son had I not attended NTCC. Following NTCC's soul winning program caused my wife to miscarriage.
Some things you cannot forget. Remember, lives are at stake and if your the Best NTCC has to offer then we are all in a world of trouble.
Good luck in your future endeavors. Your going to need them. By the way, tell Kekel hello for me. Tell him if he takes out the "O" in hello then that is exactly where he is going unless he repents.
If you label US as super spiritual, then just remember this is how NTCC USE TO BE. Your the dude in the barracks making fun of us "Bible Thumpers" while we are going around picking folks up for church.
You, the same Dude in the Barracks is now the Compromise NTCC Preacher telling us we are too Holier than Thou? Then it is offical. Babylon has fallen.
Bro Johnson
Why does ntcc send out young families./ Sometimes they have a couple kids in tow. To a city to start a "pioneer work" Pioneers went where no one had been before. To settle a land. Ntcc is really going where no man has gone before? Or because they think there last hope for the world. There the ONLY church out there to reach folks??
Back to this pioneer work. Folks are sent out with NO FINANCIAL HELP to start a ntcc church. It IS NTCC's CHURCH,there words!
You will hear,that you have to work for it,earn it. Or it will mean nothing to You . EX,taking over a sucessful work and you will drive it into the ground. Or so they say.
Lets look at Mike K. life. He was a young buck "preacher". married into the empire family. He had NOTHING and all of a sudden was living the LIFE. Had postion that he did not earn. A House that he did not Earn and a nice cushy job that he did not earn!
Olson has also said he has not worked on a job since leaving the airfoce. So did he Earn his spot?
DOUBLE STANDARDS is what ntcc is all about!
Hey House of ANON, or
H.O.A.N. for short,
Are you just popping on this blog so you can tell your Master Kekel
"Yes, Sir! I went on their blog and defended you, Sir!!"
"I stood up to Collins and Johnson, Sir"
"There telling a bunch of lies about you. Sir, but I told them that Rev Davis regrets blah blah blah"
The fact your on this blog indicates that
(1) This Blog is effective
(2) Your mad or jealous
(3) You've heard things and wanted to check out things for yourself to find out what was all the commotion about
Your not a leader, your a follower. I have no respect for you.
The only NTCC Preacher I respect coming on this Blog is Rev. Briggs, who at least is man enough to state his name, I dont agree with many of his positions, but we can come to a meeting point and leave friendly.
Admittedly, he has held his tongue as we all have at times to keep things civil. I can respect a man who will at least hear what you have to say.
Granted, this blog is one sided and at times, bless his heart, he has to put up with our frustrations. But in doing so he has demonstrated Christian love which overlooks a multitude of sins from both camps.
This blog is like a bee hive with the honey. What did you expect? Your the bear coming after the honey. You did not expect to get stung?
You?
While you duck and hide, you spineless sorry excuse of a preacher wanabee coward.
Rev Briggs is a leader, your a follower, and you will never amount to anything until you come out of your shell, take some Viagra or Redbull and get some testostorone injections you little sugar boy sissy!
BLUF: BE A MAN!!!!!
Bro Johnson
23 Days till Conference.
Intel has picked up significant increase in activity from NTCC.
Movement to Contact:
Company V formation; space 3 meters apart
If ambush is encountered, break into squads and return fire with full capacity until enemy is neutralized.
Assets: Air support unavailable. Weather: Overcast, foggy, Visibility less 1 mile
Objective: TAKE HAMBURGER HILL
Bulldog 6: OUT
Anonymous said...
Same mistake the Jews made by going about to establish their own righteousness, they became ignorant of the righteousness of God.
Jeff said...
I'm not trying to achieve the righteousness of God. I'm just blasting the NTCC just like they've mercilessly blasted their congregates for decades only to start practicing the very things they preached against. I hope God does have mercy on the NTCC because they sure are going to need it. Jesus blasted the Pharisees constantly throughout the Gospels. Are you saying Jesus was wrong? The NTCC is the same as the Pharisees so what is the difference? In fact the only groups of people who Jesus had a big problem with were the religious people. You know, the hypocrites. There is nothing wrong with calling a hypocrite a hypocrite and I plan to keep doing it.
Jeff
TB said...
Thanks Jeff for sticking up for me!
Jeff said...
I had fun doing it. What I wrote was true but I tried to throw some humor in with it. I hope that God rains fire and brimstone down on the Graham sanctuary. I do hope it's empty of people if it happens. No I take it back. That would be more money for the NTCC. The only one who would loose out on that one would be the insurance company. The insurance company needs their money more than that NTCC does. Thanks for sticking up for me also.
Jeff
Bro J wrote...
While you duck and hide, you spineless sorry excuse of a preacher wannabe coward.
Rev Briggs is a leader, your a follower, and you will never amount to anything until you come out of your shell, take some Viagra or Red-bull and get some testosterone injections you little sugar boy sissy!
Jeff said...
LOL.... Wow Bro, that gave me a laugh. It really was pretty funny. I'm still giggling right now. I like the "sorry excuse" part. You didn't cut any slack that time Bro. LOL.
Airborne!!!
Jeff
Bro Jeff,
Thats the Platoon Sergeant in me coming out LOL
I have got to remember that you cannot treat civilians like Soldiers but
NTCC treats its people like Soldiers. That is scary. It is cultish.
Command and Control is Graham, WA. I watched Battle: Los Angeles today (sidenote IT WAS AWESOME!!!) and the Marine Platoon figured out that if you take out the Command and Control center, the aliens will retreat.
Come on Down, Fire and Brimstone, rain down on the NTCC Den of Thieves!!! Why not cause an earthquake? I would have no problem if the earth just swallowed up the NTCC Campus by means of a sinkhole.
In other news, I bet you 20 bucks Kekel is counting money right now!!
Bro Johnson
I bet 30 bucks Tanya has her tongue or navel pierced!
Yall laugh but you will be surprised what folks do behind closed doors!!
"Honey how do you like this Victoria Secret outfit" "Thats nice, dear..."
One day, Victoria's secret will be exposed to EVERYONE!!!
Bro Johnson
Hello everyone, I was just wondering... I don't know if I remember right, but did someone say that the Tieman's also left? I mean the ones who the husband was the pastor in a local church in Washington and then was an assistant to the Gen. Overseer for a short time? The tall one with glasses.
Attention Current NTCC Pastors in the Graham area!
Don't forget to enroll your kids in the Esteemed Charles Wright Academy for the upcoming fall semester!
Tuition has gone up since your Leader Kekel's son Grant attended.
When he attended tuition was only $20,000 per year.
Now, tutition is $21,500 per year. (Gotta keep the teachers happy or they will go Postal on ya!!)
Also for $2000 for a school calendar year you can get an unlimited bus pass. If that is too much, you can pay $630 dollars for a 50 Ride Bus Pass or for you tightwads, $160 dollars for a 10 Ride Bus Pass.
I don't know if Grant Kekel used the bus pass or not, or if his Dad MC Kekel just dropped him of in his fancy sports cars, but one thing is for sure:
It cost $80,000 to educate Grant Kekel.
If your paying LESS than this to educate your children then you are short changing them and DENYING them a good, quality education like NTCC gave Grant Kekel.
Since you make $$$$$$ this should not be a problem. Grant Kekel also played football. The school did not win ANY football championships under his watch, nor did he set any records.
You best believe if THOUSANDS of Tithe Payers are paying for my tutition I am gonna kick some butt come gametime! I owe it to all my fans!!
Like RW Davis stated, Grant Kekel's Education is PAID FOR!!!
If you cannot afford a good eduation like NTCC can afford to give to Grant Kekel, maybe you can apply for a NTCC school loan for your son or daughter, payable in yearly installments not to exceed 80 years, plus interest.
Thank you, and may God Bless you for ensuring that your offspring are taken care of just like NTCC took care of Grant Kekel!!
Sincerely,
Concerened Anti-NTTC Staff and Brother Johnson
P.S. -
Having some doubts?
If it is good enough for Grant Kekel, it is GOOD ENOUGH for YOUR Son or Daughter!!
P.S.S. -
Remember, if NTCC can afford to pay $80,000 towards Grant Kekel's education who is NOT CALLED TO PREACH, surely there is enough money in those escrow accounts to take care of your children's education.
Please remeber to sign up at Conference. If you cannot find the sign-up sheet, please go see MC Kekel directly for guidance.
Hit and run anonymous (too ashamed to mention his name, or not allowed to be on the blog) said:
"However, it does seem you have found a source of righteousness for your self - your cause to destroy NTCC has become your righteousness."
Don and Ange said,
We are not destroying the ntcc, you guys are doing that on your own. You don't even need our help. The ntcc has gone down hill in many ways. True, they have changed in some ways and compromised some of their standards in an attempt to make it easier to "try" to get people into heaven, but they have taken their bunch of has-beens down a steep slope and have built up too much momentum to stop. Where are they going? Who knows?
I would venture to say that they don't even know where they are going to end up. I would have to say that the ntcc in large part has made their bed and now they have to sleep in it. They will never admit they were wrong, repent or change. They might throw out some blanket apologies and continue to abuse folks, but they will never change. They would have to get rid of all the abusers and start all over or maybe have a big prayer meeting and get saved and stop abusing people. It'll never happen because they have shown that they are not sorry, they never were wrong, they have nothing to repent of, everything is great and wonderful as long as we don't point out the sins that got them where they are today. All this blog activity has identified the ntcc as a cult and is hurting their bottom line.
All I can say is: "Stop being a cult". "Stop mistreating folks". "Stop destroying lives". "Stop emphasizing a small hand full of scriptures that control every waking minute of a persons life, and emphasize the most important of all commandments as Jesus did".
Don and Ange
All,
I just discovered studying the IRS Tax Code that Tithes and Offerings given to NTCC are NOT considered TAXABLE money at all but GIFTS.
I dont know about you, but the ONLY people I want to give a gift to is my family, period.
Yet folks give to strangers gifts. I'm not calling this shot, this is the IRS. They are calling this shot.
QUIT GIVING NTCC GIFTS YOU COULD BE GIVING TO YOUR FAMILY INSTEAD!!!
Read the Code! Be informed! Look at #6 below. shocking, isnt it???
VII. Links to Internal Revenue Code Laws
You can read portions of the following Internal Revenue Code laws which pertain to churches and pastors by going to the following site: “Laws Protecting New Testament Churches in the United States: Read Them for Yourself”; or you may read an entire law online by clicking the following links:
1. § 501(c)(3). Exemption from tax on corporations, certain trusts, etc.
2. § 508. Special rules with respect to section 501(c)(3) organizations
3. § 7611. Restrictions on church tax inquiries and examinations
4. § 1402. [Dealing with taxes on income of pastors]
5. § 107. Rental value of parsonages
6. § 102. Gifts and inheritances (Tithes and offerings are gifts and, therefore, according to the Internal Revenue Code § 102, not income)
7. § 2503. Taxable gifts
8. § 170. Charitable, etc., contributions and gifts
Since you die hard NTCC folks want to give in the offering plate so badly, I am going to take up an offering for my son for the new Nintendo 3D NES.
If it is good enough for Grant, it is good enough for MY Son.
Cheers to healthy giving!!
Bro Johnson
RB said:
"Peter didn't seem to think it was all that easy."
1 Peter 5:8-10
Don and Ange said,
Rev. Briggs, you are right. It isn't going to be easy. Peter was definitely right and God's word is right. However, God's plan of salvation was never intended to be so difficult. The ntcc has made God's simple plan next to impossible by adding to and taking away from God's word. The ntcc in the past has over-emphasized a few scriptures that make it even more difficult than God himself would have it to be. The ntcc-bs (bible school) trains men and women to go out all over the world and preach the same abusive stuff they are indoctrinated with in Graham.
Don't you know that if they see davis or kekel openly humiliating someone for something that is not even a sin, that they are going to do the same thing? Peter wasn't talking about that. If a so called man of God has to blast people to make himself feel better, he is abusing his office and placing a stumbling block before others, thus making it harder than it has to be to make it to heaven.
I have seen this in the ntcc happen countless times and also seen it in these blogs. A holier than thou ntcc preacher comes along and talking about how we need to have mercy, we need to get on with our lives, we need to forgive. A lot of what we do here is call a spade a spade. We give true accounts of what we have been through and we share our survival stories in hopes that others will not be duped as we were. Many of our mannerisms are reflections of what the ntcc has contributed to our character. If we rub anyone the wrong way, they can turn around like that cat.
It amazes me that folks take so much offense to us, when they have been on the other end of the shovel for most of their lives. We are just shoveling it back.
Don and Ange
Bro. Johnson said:
Rev Briggs is a leader, your a follower, and you will never amount to anything until you come out of your shell, take some Viagra or Red-bull and get some testosterone injections you little sugar boy sissy!
Don and Ange said,
Muhahaha!!!! LOL, They can dish it out and they can take it, I hope.
I totally understand it when an X-er posts as anonymous. Many are still afraid of the ntcc and think that if they disagree with the borg that they will die and go to hell.
I can't understand, and maybe someone on this blog can enlighten us as to why a grown confident man that has been taught by rwd to boldly preach God's word to the masses, would be scared to identify themselves on these blogs. Rev. Briggs, I disagree with you on many points but I also respect you for not being ashamed of who you are, what you believe and where you stand. Can you tell us why ntcc ministers are so afraid to identify themselves on these blogs?
Are they sinning by being here? Is there an ntcc mandate to stay away from the blogs? Are they afraid of being called out for something they did in their past? Just wondering.
So many ntcc preachers will blast people for not taking ownership of their personal lives and responsibilities. They will boldly preach that they are not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. Then they come in here with their hit and run comments to timid and meek to identify themselves. What are they hiding? Just wondering.
Don and Ange
Ntcc standards were hardlined against tv for years. They even kicked one man out of school for watching dvd movies. This mans life went down hill. He experienced emotional and mental distress and eventually took his own life. The chain of events were precipitated by manmade standards that are no longer followed in ntcc. Does anyone think some serious public explanations are in order as to why the change?
Anonymous said...
Ntcc standards were hard-lined against tv for years. They even kicked one man out of school for watching dvd movies. This mans life went down hill. He experienced emotional and mental distress and eventually took his own life.
Jeff said...
Wow, isn't the NTCC a great organization. The NTCC drives folks crazy and I mean that literally. The NTCC will mess up your head. Got out while you can.
I previously wrote:
Since you die hard NTCC folks want to give in the offering plate so badly, I am going to take up an offering for my son for the new Nintendo 3D NES.
If it is good enough for Grant, it is good enough for MY Son.
Cheers to healthy giving!!
Bro Johnson
***UPDATE*** Have not received even ONE CENT from anyone attending NTCC. But they want to give till it hurts. NTCC lover givers, I am not asking a lot, just $150.00. Remember, the Lord loveth a Cheerful giver!!
Day ONE: Remember, I know some of yall got you military pay early!!!
MC KEKEL Offering count: $1,500
Bro JOHNSON Offering count: $0.00. Those are big goose eggs. Tell you, what, I will pay myself first!
If it is good enough for MC Kekel, it is good enough for me!!!
MC Kekel Offering count: $1,500
Bro Johnson Offering count: $20.00
Bro Johnson
The following is from an article on military suicide rates:
****
"I had road rage really bad," said Helfert, 31, a full-time student at the University of Tampa. "Things would bother me. Dogs barking. Helicopters flying. Planes from MacDill."
The stress got so bad that last October, he began thinking about ending his life.
Life-and-death struggle
Once every 36 hours, a service member commits suicide, according to the Department of Defense.
****
Most of the accusations against NTCC on this forum are more related to typical aspects of this fallen world we live in - rather than specific to an individual's encounter with NTCC.
Many posts on this forum are slanted in such a way as to tell a story that always leaves NTCC in a bad light.
My contention with the House of Collin's is simply this:
If I may quote Jesus and Brother Barnes commentary; it would please me greatly if you would take the time to read this and pray about it.
They have said it better than I can... so again please indulge me and ponder their words.
I am only one of many Christians around the world who would say:
The House of Collin's "service" is guilty of persecuting a church organization similarly to the following statements:
****
John 16:2
Jesus speaking, "... yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."
****
And putting forth a word of exhortation; Brother Barnes Commentary places a magnifying glass upon it: bringing forth a most excellent practical explanation...
****
Whosoever killeth you - ...is also true of the Gentiles, that in their persecution of Christians they supposed they were rendering acceptable service to their gods.
God’s service - ...Men often suppose, or profess to suppose, that they are rendering God service when they persecute others; and, under the pretense of great zeal for truth and purity, evince all possible bigotry, pride, malice, and un-charitableness.
The people of God have suffered most from those who have been conscientious persecutors; and some of the most malignant foes which true Christians have ever had have been in the church... under pretense of great zeal for the cause of purity and religion.
It is no evidence of piety that a man is full of zeal against those whom he supposes to be heretics; and it is one of the best proofs that a man knows nothing of the religion of Jesus when he is eminent for self-conceit in his own views of orthodoxy, and firmly fixed in the opinion that all who differ from him... must of course be wrong.
****
Thank you so much for taking time to read this. Please ponder the spiritual aspects they portray to us.
Oh House of Collins:
...in all your zeal to destroy NTCC... have you lost your way and become guilty of such tactis?
Anonymous said...
Most of the accusations against NTCC on this forum are more related to typical aspects of this fallen world we live in - rather than specific to an individual's encounter with NTCC.
Jeff said...
The suicide rate that you quoted related to military personnel. These people are under tremendous amounts of stress which quite often is battle related. I've received phone calls from numerous people who are psychologically messed up as a result of their experience with the NTCC. If the NTCC is capable of creating stress levels which parallel those found in service men and women returning from battle, there is a real problem. Sis. Cannon's doctor advised her to stay away from the NTCC because it was the cause of her stress related problems.
The NTCC has a history of driving people crazy, (no pun intended). I know what I'm talking about because I've received entirely too many phone calls from people who've been messed up psychologically as a result of their experiance with the NTCC.
For decades these people were taught that if they looked at someone wrong they'd sinned. If they didn't like the abusive preacher they'd sinned. If they really didn't feel like going to conference this time because they didn't have enough money they'd sinned. If their kids didn't act godly according to the NTCC ridiculous rules they'd sinned. If their kids didn't attend the NTCS, (like Grant Kekel) they'd sinned. RWD said on many occasions that the hardest thing you'd ever do is make the rapture of the church. So what was the result?
Many NTCC people always felt that no matter what they did for God it was never enough. No matter how hard they tried to have a pure heart it was never pure enough. So the result was a whole bunch of NTCC people who were always being convicted about something and as a result the conviction would turn into depression, PTSD and high levels of anxiety. This is what the NTCC has caused in the lives of many, because of the NTCC's legalistic approach to everything. Rules, rules, rules, rules. Basically the NTCC doesn't teach grace, they teach the law which no man can successfully live by.
The NTCC teaches a grace loaded with a bunch of legalism, some of which is made up and some is carried over from the Old Testament.
You are living in denial Anonymous. Your church absolutely sucks. Your church has done more damage to souls over the years and driven more people away from Christ than it could ever bring to Christ in a thousand years. The ones who leave the NTCC and still want to serve God are often so mixed up by the NTCC false teachings that they wouldn't even know where to begin. Many others no longer even want to step foot in church because the NTCC crooks have ruined their trust in mankind.
No this blog isn't slanted. The NTCC is simply more messed up than you can even imagine and if you'd open your eyes you'd figure it out quick, but the NTCC has you blinded. I truly believe that you don't even know right from wrong.
Jeff
Anonymous King James guy,
You have a point, we have a counter point- The ntcc leadership are not Christians! So, in your view are we now contending against false shepherds?
Please consider this earnestly and ponder your thinking.
Have you been duped by ntcc's false doctrines and gone astray and become an enemy of Jesus Christ?
Please consider my questions with all humility.
Sincerely,
TB
Anonymous said,
"Many posts on this forum are slanted in such a way as to tell a story that always leaves NTCC in a bad light."
Don and Ange said:
Where does the ntcc dig people like this up? Too ashamed to identify themselves, blaming "The house of Collins" for leaving the ntcc in a bad light? Are you kidding me? You have done that yourselves. You have mistreated and abused folks. You have conducted yourselves just like a cult. We are not trying to kill you or persecute you. We simply state the facts here. We welcome you to defend your positions but your positions are indefensible so here you come crying persecution.
Give us a break. Nobody is persecuting you or trying to destroy you. You guys are going to crumble from within. You are just as vehemently against us as we are against you, the only difference is that you got away with it for decades until the information age caught up with you. Now your abusive ways are public knowledge. You could have repented and still can if you wanted to, but you continue to beat people down by publicly humiliating them and openly rebuking them for breaking your un-biblical policies. What you folks need is a good prayer meeting, and a revival to wake you up so you can see that not only are you not the only church that is going to heaven, but so many churches and people are so far ahead of you it isn't funny.
If you would start to treat people right admit that you have a problem maybe you too could be saved. You can't be saved unless first you realize that you are lost. If you abuse folks in the tradition of the ntcc, than you are still in sin and need Jesus. I learned that Jesus loves the homeless, the drunkard and the religious hypocrite the same. Please don't blame us for your short comings and don't accuse us of your demise.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange said:
Can you tell us why ntcc ministers are so afraid to identify themselves on these blogs?
Everyone who has ever sat in a B.S. class taught by R.W. or M.C. knows why ntcc ministers don't identify themselves on here.
BLACKLIST
Even Rev Briggs knows that by identifying himself here, he is marked by R.W. and M.C. as "skirting the edge"
They won't tell him to his face, but when talking among themselves, he is suspect and they monitor his activity and watch for any sign of "unauthorized" speech.
You can be sure that any and all ntcc preachers who are known to post on these blogs are marked by leadership for a high level of covert scrutiny and mistrust.
Dictatorial control dictates that there be no dissension or speech that reflects negatively on the Dear Leader.
Hence the "Whirlwind"
Caesar
Anonymous said...
"Many posts on this forum are slanted in such a way as to tell a story that always leaves NTCC in a bad light."
Jeff said...
Duh. After all the abuse I've seen take place withing NTCC? It's not like I'm going to become their cheer leader. You've got to understand: To the depths of my heart, I really believe that the NTCC leadership is crooked. If you read this entire blog and afterward, you determine that 1/20 of the abuse stories are accurate? You'd feel the same way that I do. Many people have come to this blog over the last couple years and written about some NTCC preacher who's abused them or done something underhanded. I believe they've given true testimonies.
So yeah, this blog is slanted as rightfully it should be. Where do you think that all these clowns learned to abusive people like they do? RWD and the NTCC leadership. They think that's what Christianity is all about. Dogging people and judging every move they make.
If a man comes in your house and murders your children are you going to show up in court and say, "He used to be a pretty good guy and he's not all bad". Duh!!! I don't think so. I going to say, "Hang em". That is the biggest problem with the NTCC. They don't want to hold people accountable. They can't. RWD might have a history of being the most abusive one out of the bunch. What is Olson going to do? He is just a punk with no moral fortitude and no back bone. I'm not sure if Olson has ever made a decision on his own in his life since he's been under RWD with the NTCC.
Olson's weak and RWD is a control monger and that ain't slanted.
Jeff
Quoted from Barnes Commentary by Anon:
It is no evidence of piety that a man is full of zeal against those whom he supposes to be heretics; and it is one of the best proofs that a man knows nothing of the religion of Jesus when he is eminent for self-conceit in his own views of orthodoxy, and firmly fixed in the opinion that all who differ from him... must of course be wrong.
Uhhhm, Uhhhhh, Hmmmmm, Errrrr,
Has Pastor Davis said or implied in preaching at any time any type of statement that could be construed by listeners as purporting to be "firmly fixed in the opinion that all who differ from him... must of course be wrong."
As meager examples, I submit the following:
All other Christian denominations have compromised and left God.
NTCC has been raised up by God in these last days because all others have left off following the "True Way"
We are God's Special Forces.
If all the others had not left God, then why did God "raise us up" in these last days?
Just askin'
Caesar
Bingo, Bada Bing, Bada Boom. I remember pastors in the NTCC saying that the entire House of Prayer was going to hell; every last one!!! I'm not making this up. For decades the NTCC has had the mentality that they are right and everyone who is different from them is wrong with no exceptions.
The NTCC leadership thinks they have the Bible all figured out and they think they've got God all figured out. There could be nothing further from the truth. I believe that the NTCC doesn't know the first thing about Christianity. Christianity is about loving your neighbor more than yourself and the NTCC system does everything but that.
The NTCC system is about loving Kekel and RWD. The big, "Lets take care of the man of God." Forget about taking care of the little guys. Lets clean the RWD's and Kekel's house. Lets watch RWD and Kekel and Olson ride in their fat RV's. Let's wait on them hand and foot. Yes Sir, no Sir, yes Sir, no Sir. That is what the NTCC is all about. The NTCC has missed the mark completely.
Either bow down to RWD or he will run you off. Either let him chew you out like a dog or he will run you off. Either let RWD belittle you, embarrass you, critique everything you do, pack up your house every time he requests, sit by idly while he tells jokes about everyone's fat wife, or leave his church. If you don't leave the NTCC he will certainly make you want to leave. RWD is one of the biggest jerks I've ever known in my life. He does not care that you've invested ***25*** years of your life to his organization. That means nothing to him. He will drop you like a hot potato. He doesn't care about anyone. This is going to be my next thread.
The NTCC is a family business. You will never be anyone in the NTCC if you are not somehow connected to one of the head families. They will gladly let you leave high and dry.
Jeff
"Is that any different than RWD praying that God rain fire and brimstone down on anyone who would compromise the NTCC's standards?"
Looks like RW's prayers have been ineffective, because compromise is the order of the day. Maybe the fire and brimstone are still coming.
ntcc hates exposure. They like to welcolme reporters onto there gated compound. To get JUST there side of things. So they can slant it how they want it stated. BUT when the newspaper took our side as well. As a good reporter does,gets both sides of the issue. They scurry like roaches and screech! Ex,bashing that Washington reporter as he attended one of there bible studies. talk about bashing someone over there pulpit!
Ntcc needs no slanting to make them look bad. You give them a rope and get them talking. they will hang themselves. Folks that are not under the brainwashed control fog. Will realize that this does not sound right at all.
There little choir stunt I am sure did little for there exposure. I have been to many church concerts,seen events in public. Didn't make me want to attend that church!!
Vic said...
Maybe the fire and brimstone are still coming.
Jeff said...
Yeah there will be some fire and brimstone when the NTCC leadership stokes up the coals during their next cookout. You know the one like Mike posted pictures of last time. There was a kid playing foosball with his hat turned around backwards, "whud up homes". Personally I thought it was kind of cool but not too long ago, RWD would have ripped you a new backside if it was your kid who was doing the old homeboy hat flip around trick.
Jeff
David Bean and his family haven't left yet?
Yes I know. The NTCC has a pretty good grip on him. I hope one day he does leave. That would be a great relief for his brother. I can't even imagine how it must feel, (knowing what I know about the NTCC) to have a family member who is unwittingly trapped by such a group. The biggest regret I have about my involvement with the NTCC is what my family had to endure.
When I say my family I'm talking about my Father, Mother, Wife and Daughter. Thank God my Son was too young to be really affected by the whole situation; as far as I can tell. I really can't stand the NTCC. The NTCC has done so much emotional harm to so many people. Jesus doesn't mess up your brain.
Jeff
WOW! It's great to hear how so many more are wising up, and leaving such a contolling, abusive environment. The Cannons, Rev. Reed (missionary to Guam) The Butlers (Davis's right hand gopher man) I remember when I went down to Boise to start a church (which we did!) I stopped in at the local Denny's and there was David Cannon waiting tables. Good guy, I always like Dave, and his wife was alway a sweet gal to be around, a real kind, and humble spirit. Not the fake kind but the kind that you don';t have to second guess. It just goes to show what kind of a PRICK Kinson is for yelling at her! Anyway, it'll take some time Shonda to put all of NTCC craziness behind you, but soon you and your family will be able to move on, and have a normal life again. Whatever you do, don't get caught up in the mantality that God hates you because you left this group. NTCC may hate you, but God does not!
Thank you so much David for your kind words and encouragement they really meant a lot to me. I finally have been feeling within these last weeks like I belong in Pendleton again. I have made severeal new friends and God is beginning to use me again in people lives and its really a comfort. I am begginning to feel more at home and settled. Its nice to be busy for God agian but not so busy that me head is going to pop off LOL.
About Rev. Kinson
Rev. Kinson was upset with me because I had lost a phone number of a person I was bringing to church, I really shouldn't have brought up his name but I wasn't thinking when I typed about him. I was just using of an example of how he was humble enough to appoligize when some people are not. He was concerned and dissapointed in me because he felt this person was slipping through the cracks and his drive and conviction caused him to come accross harsher than I think he intendend to. Anyways I was too much of a chicken to tell him that I though the girl no longer wanted to come because she wanted a church that had more in the area's of youth ministry and missions trips which we had nothing of the sort.
Shonda said...
Rev. Kinson was upset with me because I had lost a phone number of a person I was bringing to church, I really shouldn't have brought up his name but I wasn't thinking when I typed about him. I was just using of an example of how he was humble enough to apologize when some people are not.
Jeff said...
That is true, some people are not. How about they try this one on for size. Stop jumping on people every single time you get the notion!!!! Then you won't have to run around apologizing every time you loose your cool. That is the problem Shonda. These guys see themselves as Gods Drill Sergeants/John the Baptist/Elijah. They think it's their job to reprove everyone for any reason they see fit!!!
That is the problem Shonda and Kinson is notorious for that kind of stuff. Yeah he apologized and that's ok but he never should have jumped on you in the first place for something as trivial as you loosing a phone number. Oh, that's not trivial? Y'all NTCCers don't see a problem with RWD running off people who've dedicate 25 years of their life dedicated to the NTCC but it's a big problem if someone looses a phone number to someone who could care less about your church. A bird in the hand is WAY better than two in the bush.
Kinson's priorities suck. He should have never jumped on you in the first place over something that trivial.
I don't go for it. Thank God you did loose the phone number or you might be feeling guilty right now because the person is trapped in the same cult that you just escaped from. Kinson probably apologized to you one minute and then turned around and jumped on someone else the next.
Now I'm jumping on all of them but the difference is, I'm not running around claiming that I'm the last hope for mankind. I'm anything but however I do claim that this blog will continue to be instrumental in opening the eyes of the blind who are trapped within the NTCC's clutches.
Jeff
Cool. So David Hickman is the Former Graham Lay Pastor. Mystery solved. Always enjoyed reading your posts as FGLP.
Way to go David Hickman! It's always refreshing to see someone recover enough to forsake anonymity. It's testimony that the org no longer controls you in any way.
Hooah!!! We're Winning!!!
Jeff
Does anyone know if the Tiemans are still in? As I remember, they labored in Parkland, seemed to be a very successful work, but it was fairly close to Graham. Then the NTCC closed it down and brought him to Graham as well as his congregation, and then sent him out as an assistant to Rev. Johnson, and then removed him from his office. Does anyone know if they are still in? I thought I heard that they left.
Hey Shonda I didn't know you were from Tacoma? I grew up in S. Tacoma my entire life. What High School did you attend? I went to Mt. Tahoma.
Sorry it took me so long to respond our computer has been having issues. I graduated in 2001 from lakes High school.
Thanks so much Jeff for your kindness and wanting to help :) My hubby spend all night trying to fix it and I think he pretty much has it taken care of I hope. He tried to install a new operating system and it did not seem compatible,we were puzzled why it would not mesh but oh well. My hubby just ended up sweeping the system clean and putting our stuff on backup. So hopefully we have it figured out. Thanks again :)
Yeah, it seems like he probably has it under control. I've had to format a hard drive on quite a few occasions to install a new operating system. I bought a desktop about 10 years ago that had windows millennium edition (which was garbage), so after a couple years I bought xp, wiped out the hard drive and did a fresh install. A hard drive crashed on the same computer a few years after that so I bought a new hard drive and once again had to do a fresh install. On another occasion a wicked Trojan virus infected the hard drive so severely that I had to unconditionally format the entire drive and reinstall the operating system.
Needless to say, I know where you are coming from. I hope you guys get it right. Recently I installed new power supplies in both my desktops. Nothing wrong with the old ones but I was installing new graphics cards and so I needed more wattage and wanted power supplies which produced more stable voltages.
Now it's kind of a hobby and I like upgrading my desktops. I have one desktop that's a monster with a touch screen thermal display in one of the drive bays, 3.4Ghz quad core black edition processor with 4 cores activated, zalman CPU cooler, XFX 750W 80-plus silver rated power supply, 8 gigs corsair ram, sapphire radeon 5850 toxic 1gig video card, Hitachi 1TB hard drive, ASUS crossfire mobo, NZXT case with two 140mm intake fans and three 140mm exhaust to keep all that hardware nice and coooool. I'm into this whole computer thing and I need a powerful rig to warn folks of the dangers surrounding involvement with the NTCC. I need to be able to hit em with some serious Gigabits. Ha, ha.
Just let me know if you guys need any help.
Jeff
Careful, Jeff. I started out like that and got experienced enough to land a job in IT. Actually, that was a godsend, since I didn't really have any significant career experience or training due to the "NTCC Effect." I'm liking geek life.
I'm actually school trained in the Army in the MOS 74B as a Computer Analyst. I was also a Satellite Maintainer, 31S. I was the senior instructor at Ft. Gordon as an E-7 in advanced electronics. My military background is in communications and electronics and later in the military as a computer analyst.
This is a hobby but something I'm trained on as well. Other than special assignments, I spent my whole career in the signal branch. I didn't always serve as a signal guy though. As you get more rank, of course you wind up in staff jobs or serving as a Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant or something like that. I was also on a General's staff for a year. In fact as an E-7, other than being an instructor for a little over a year, I never actually worked in my MOS.
Jeff
Anonymous said:
"I say we show Pastor Davis the mercy we want God to show us ..."
MARCH 12, 2011 2:51 PM
Don and Ange say,
We say show that hireling davis the 'mercy' he has shown to others:
** Show davis the same 'mercy' he showed to Mike Marshall down in the Philippines when davis ran off Mike Marshall, yelling at him and saying,
"If you walk out that door, I'm not coming after you."
** Show davis the same 'mercy' he showed the Hamptons, family of six with two adults and four kids, being homeless while working to build a church for ntcc in Mexico, Missouri. davis sent them there; but allowed them to be homeless in a city only fifteen (yup 15 ) miles away from the ntcc campground with literally hundreds of empty beds! What sin did the Hampton kids commit to deserve that? NONE! What 'sin' did the Hampton adults do to deserve that? Why, they committed the unpardonable sin [by ntcc standards]: Hampton refused ntcc's low-ball offer to buy Hampton's property [located next to the ntcc compound in Graham, WA] at a price much lower than market rate. So we guess davis was dishing out payback by allowing the Hampton's to go homeless only 15 miles away from the empty ntcc campground.
**Show davis the same 'mercy' he showed Eric Barden. When Barden was begging for his life to not have to go up on a steep roof with out safety gear, davis refused to show mercy to this man who had slaved for the ntcc for over 12 years in many roles and ministries. Instead davis effectively told Eric Barden to go hang himself, having Russ Mears deliver the message to "tie a rope on" while george 'dad' keener added, "Yeah, put it around your neck."
Just three simple examples of the type of 'mercy' doled out by davis over the years. We say, let God render to every man according to his work!
Don and Ange
In case you're wondering what that means, it means davis has shown no mercy; davis should reap no mercy.
all u who speak evil of these men n this organization should be ashamed of yourselves. do u not have a life? The bible says u will give an account for every idle word. Watch Wut u write because in the end u will regret it. Don't talk bad about my pastor or any of the men of God. And u know y I haven't left? Because I serve God first, not man. When you put it in that order u will b loyal.
Pastor Davis n sister Davis have been good to me n my family n they are the most beautiful people I have ever met. Wut is the point of bashing them? Do u know why you do it so boldly? Because you know that no real Christian is gonna stoop low n say anything back to you that's hurtful. You have full range motion. Kinda boring if u ask me to put your 2 cents into it n just run ur mouth without any kind of retaliation from anyone. Well look...all u who read this post, some of who I know of n can't believe I would hear such things coming from you, how about you guys stop acting like little children, grow up n get a life other than this stupid page n move on. I mean come on... a lot of u r middle aged... act ur age.
To the anonymous poster too scared to post your name:
If you truly feel this page has no merit, why are you here?
How do YOU 'serve God'?
Do you have a plan that is laid out in the Bible for YOUR form of 'serving God'? Or are you just regurgitating words you've had drilled into you at your cult indoctrination meetings six, seven, eight times a week or more?
Try to think of an original answer before you come back on with words that have no substance like your previous posts. Tell us, please, what makes you think that what YOU do is so important, or good, or right that you think you need to come tell us what to do?
We just don't see anything valid in what you say. It sounds like more cult-programmed responses that you had fed to you from the pulpit in hopes that you would come here to bash us.
It's okay. Be brave and tell us how great you are and why. We really want to know.
Don and Ange
P.S.
Could you use the Bible to define "idle word" and "judged"? That way we know exactly what it is about our true stories that has you so fired-up to come here and say so much of nothing.
And try typing out the full word. It builds character to complete the work you begin. You wouldn't want us to think you are too lazy to type "y" and "o" with all of your "u"s; would you? Or how about that "i" in the word "in"? Maybe you ARE lazy. Maybe you don't know how to spell "you" or "in". Maybe you don't want people to guess your true identity; so you try to hide behind a "u". It's a mystery. We are so interested to find out the reason from someone as 'enlightened' as "u"...
Don and Ange
By the way, anonymous too scared to put your name, have you ever heard joey olson say, "Beauty is as beauty does."? Do you agree? Is beauty made manifest by actions? If you agree then you will have to agree that the davis' are some of the ugliest people on this earth. If you disagree, take it up with joey olson.
Was it beautiful for davis to let the Hampton family be homeless only 15 miles away from the empty ntcc national campground where there are hundreds of empty beds? The Hamptons were in Mexico, Missouri on davis' orders to build a ntcc church there. Do you think that was a beautiful thing davis did allowing a family of six to go homeless while working for the ntcc?
Don and Ange
We bet you will be cutting and running now. Too chicken to defend the indefensible! Bock bock. Bock bock. Beautiful davis? Barf. davis is mean and evil. Jesus called hypocrites "Hypocrites!". davis is a hypocrite, not beautiful.
We guess that soon the scared anonymous poster will be making the usual ntcc excuses like, "You people are blah, blah, blah, so I'm not going to post any more. I'm not going to waste my time. Blah, blah, blah." But the truth is you won't want to post because you know we are right; and your useless borg answers don't hold any water or weight. Face it anon, if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch; 'coz right now what you say, well, that dog don't hunt!
Anonymous said...
all u who speak evil of these men n this organization should be ashamed of yourselves.
Jeff said...
It's ok to be anonymous but the least you could do is try to type english. Your gibberish sounds like it's coming from a first grader. There is nothing wrong with spelling out entire words. I suspect you text quite a bit. Anyway, I shouldn't be ashamed. RWD is an abusive crook, narcissist, nepotist. No way to come up with some one letter abbreviation for those words. Look them up and you'll learn what RWD is all about. U b writing like u r young.
Ha, ha. Are you the best the NTCC can produce? I hope not. RWD is a crook and his wife should start her own version of eHarmony, NTCC style.
Jeff
Oh I will write back n I will continue to use my one letter words. Lol sorry thats wuts in with the younger generation. U shorten your words on your phone so u don't waste time. But really? You have to say something about that too? Lol immature I tell ya. Oh n hey... why bring up the hamptons when they don't have a problem with the issue your bringing up? I know the hamptons well...hang out with their son all the time n he is on fire for God. Are you just running out of stories that now u have to tell other peoples stories for them? If its even true
And I'm not on here because I doubt this organization...I was just looking for someone. Trust me your empty words don't dissuade me from my beliefs.
And I will remain anonymous n not reveal my name because I'm not stupid. Knowing you guys...you would take my name and my words and twist them and post junk just like you have been doing for a while.
By the way what is your last name don and ange? Trying to see if I know you.
Anonymous said,
"do u not have a life?"
Don and Ange said:
A life like you? Pray tell, what kind of life do you have? Let's examine this. First of all, you are too afraid to mention who you are. What kind of man, or woman are you? They have you too scared to mention who you are? Is there biblical precedence for that? Do you see any instances in the New Testament where anyone was too ashamed of what they had to say to identify themselves? What kind of example do you set for others to see? When others see folks like you they think CULT right away.
Second, are you living a fulfilled life? Do you have things of your own or do they take all your money and leave you to believe that you are laying up your treasures in Heaven? Can people look at your life and honestly say, I see Christ in that person? Do they see something they really want? Are you living a life of freedom that others would want to emulate? Chances are again, that they would see a cult member that can't think on their own and lives according to strict man-made principles.
Well first of all I make statements from my own beliefs n heart. i have never been to bible school so don't know their teachings. I'm just saying I've met them and they're all good people. And no I'm not afraid to tell you who I am...I'm just smart enough not to. It's apparent you guys are up to no good so why give you another name to bash? anyways im done writing as i posted before n apologize for anything that may have offended you. i still stand true to my defenses but apologize for getting heated at your statements. its not my place to judge, only Gods. take care
Anonymous said...
I'm just saying I've met them and they're all good people.
Jeff said...
All? You're kidding right? You must be. There are more crooks within the NTCC leadership than good people. In fact I'd say they are all crooks. That is ok, if you stick around the NTCC long enough you'll figure it out and if you don't, have fun wasting your life, money and time. So you came on here looking for someone? If they are in the NTCC you probably came to the wrong place. We learned well from RWD the crook. We ran them all off. Ha, ha. Have a good one.
Jeff
I really don't think we should be responding to anonymous. She is obviously an ignorant, uneducated, deceived, brain washed cult member. In reality the more she says the more obvious her ignorance will be clearly visible.
(I am assuming it is a "she", I hope a man would not speak in such ignorant texting speak, lol)
TB
Anonymous said,
"And no I'm not afraid to tell you who I am...I'm just smart enough not to. It's apparent you guys are up to no good so why give you another name to bash?"
Don and Ange said,
Don't worry, we are not here to bash you like we got bashed from behind the pulpit. Does the ntcc teach that lying is okay now? Most of you are afraid to death to say who you are. What can we possibly do to you? The only reason you don't mention your names is because you are scared to death that you will get your fields plowed for participating in this forum. We probably don't even know who you are so your name is irrelevant. Your anonymity doesn't keep us from "bashing" you. We don't hide behind anonymity, and we get bashed all the time. Not being afraid of who you are and not being ashamed of what you say is part of being man or woman enough to take ownership and stand up for what you believe in.
I have to believe that you and many others in the ntcc are the ones that are up to no good. We are trying to save others from the heart ache of wasting years of their lives in an abusive cult. I just have a problem understanding why if someone is right about something and they have no problem pointing their fingers at us and saying that we are going to sit in judgement by the likes of some abusive ntcc ministers, why they would hide behind the name anonymous? I would be more inclined to believe that deep down inside, you know you are in a cult and that your cult leaders do not want you to participate in this blog because they know the topics discussed in this blog are damning to them and illuminate their hypocrisy.
I know that you said you were leaving but I also know that because of human nature you will read this to see if your last comment got answered. We don't hate you or wish any ill will toward you. We spent years of our lives sitting where you sit right now and trying to make sense of it all.
All I can say is that right is right and wrong is wrong. The ntcc is on the wrong side of Bible more often than not. The longer people listen to them the more mean spirited they become. They are filled with hatred toward anyone that does not fall into lock step with them and they disregard common sense and subject large portions of their lives to being a cult member.
I know. I wasted 13 years of my life being a cult member. Very little of it was productive because it was not based on true Christianity but most of it was based on a system that was set up by the greedy leaders of ntcc for one purpose and one purpose only. Follow the money trail and you will find out why so few make it all the way.
Don and Ange
Hatred is like poisoning yourself and expecting someone else to die from it- Stephanie
hang out with the hamptons son. He is on fire for God. Ntcc Jargon.
Speaks of texting for the younger generation. And this person has not been to the fake bible school. I am going to make the assumption that this person is one of there new members. that has swallowed there fake love. Lock,stock and Barrel! They think there where God wants them to be. That this Organization is the last hope for the world(ntcc jargon). That these men are a blessing and have sacrificed so much for mankind,jargon.
Funny if you asking us if we have a life,LoL because you know you have no life in ntcc. Unless your sout "soulwinning",at there multiple fake church serves. Who doesn't have a life?
April
That is a good point April. I didn't pick up on that one. It is funny that we were asked if we had a life.
Sing a song, raise your hands, sit down, go to conference, dance around, get all worked up, jump up and down, get all emotional, listen to Ashmore sing, start to cry, listen to Tanya sing, start to cry, walk around in circles looking at who's not praying, watch RWD scowl, get blasted, watch RWD scowl, get told it you don't like it here you can leave, watch RWD scowl, then ask someone, "If you died right now, do you know where you'd spend eternity?" Then do it all over again. You call that a life?
If the NTCC's shenanigans, double standards, hypocrisy, abusive tactics, and judgmental ways are what heaven is all about, heaven wouldn't be a very nice place.
Now who doesn't have a life? I'll guarantee this, you can have the life that NTCC people live because I don't want it. That is not life. It's called follow the misguided leader. I wouldn't want to get rich the way the Kekel's have. I'll earn my own money. I just can't get into gaining wealth at the hands of a bunch gullible people who are trying to be decent.
Jeff
Well if you have your own church such as Rev. kekel does n are successful then the church supplies your needs. That's what being full time is...working for the church. Now if its jealousy that I'm getting a hint of here I'm sorry... seems to me that you guys are jealous that God has blessed them and not you. If when you were attending you had a real relationship with God and weren't so critical and actually paid your tithe and gave in offering because the bible commands it and weren't thinking of where the money goes then maybe you would have been blessed that way too.
Stephanie
There is no need to be critical or judgmental of a preachers success. That was their calling in life and if God chooses to bless them then who are you to say otherwise?
Why in the world would you concern yourself with other peoples issues? Lol you must have too much time on your hands.
Have you ever stopped to think that Pastor Davis is a human and he has a life just as everyone else? Maybe he had a busy day and was tired... He does have a lot of responsibilities. And He is about souls which shows why there are so many people that love him and follow his teachings. And we people that are in this organization and support it are humans too and we recognize false people. Were not in a cult. We are here because its where God led us, where were taught and fed the bible and where were loved. I have been in this church since I was 2 so you cant tell me I don't know what I'm getting myself in to. I know that this church is right and so are the leaders.
Stephanie said...
that's what being full time is...working for the church. Now if its jealousy that I'm getting a hint of here I'm sorry... seems to me that you guys are jealous that God has blessed them and not you.
Jeff said...
Jealous, are you kidding me? I wouldn't want to obtain money they way the Kekels have. What I'm about to write ain't bragging, but you said I'm jeolous and I'm getting ready to make a point Stephanie: I have a big brick house with covered porches in the front and the back. Tile and hard wood everywhere. A two and a half car garage. Real nice. A good chuck of land that I'm cutting down wood on to make a bigger back yard. Three cars. One for my wife, my duaghter and me. My wife drives a 2009 car I bought her brand new. I've got a big fat Husqvarna riding tractor that I use to haul stuff in a trailer and mow my lawn. Some times me and my little boy just ride it for fun. My little boy steers. I collect computers and guns and I have a great collection of both. Expensive computers and guns. I have so much stuff that we give it to goodwill where no doubt you shop. We just gave a working computer to goodwill that I had over $2000 in. Why? Because I wanted a new one.
I've got a great job making great money with every benefit you can dream of, including all kinds of time off, never work on the weekends, I don't work late or go in early, 100% medical coverage at no extra cost to me for my entire family, $500,000 life insurance, dental for my whole family, all kinds of vacation time and you think I'm jealous? You have no clue just how good I have it and I work for my living and earn it, it's not given to me. Jeolous? What? LOL. My computer probably has a nicer speaker system than most people ever own. Klipsch THX. Why am I telling all this so that you can say I'm bragging. To make a point. Jeolousy ain't it girl becasue I've got so much stuff that it don't even make sense. My computer is probably worth more than your car and you think I'm jeolous? Oh and it's paid for in full. My wife has two computers and their both fat. We won't even talk about my digital cameras. Why not. I have a single lens for my Nikon DSLR that is probably worth more than your car. It's so big and heavy that most folks don't even like carrying it. I just bought my daughter a brand new laptop and it ain't no bargin basement one either. We just bought brand new furnature for our computer room and I'm talking about a couch and a fat loung chair. Two more leather chairs to sit in front of two speciality computer desks which are 128 inches long. Over 10 Feet of solid wood. I don't buy anything cheap. Let me ask you again, Jeolous? Are you kidding. You just made an assumption and an assumption is the mother of all screwups and that is what you just did. I wouldn't trade Mike Kekel's life for mine if you paid me!!!!!!!!!! Ha, ha, ha, ha. Jeolous? Your joking right? Tell me what I'm supposed to be jeolous of? Having a bunch of women who are suckers come over to clean my house like they do Tanya's? NOT!!!
Tell me where in the New Testament that a commandment can be found that says you must pay a tenth of all your increase? Tell me being that you made such a bold statement?
Tell me why the NTCC uses 1 Cor 16:2 in their doctrinal statement to justify paying tithe when a blind dummy can plainly see it has nothing at all to do with it. It talks about giving to the poor, not giving to some rich pastor but obviously you never read and or understood your churches doctrinal statement or you just weren't smart enough to understand 1 Cor 16:2. Which one is it?
So your saying that because the Kekels have money that means that God blessed them? So according to that logic a bank robber that gets away with millions must be blessed by God because he is rich, isn't that right?
Continued below.
Have you ever read 1 Tim 6:10? If you did, you didn't understand it. Let me help you. It says, "the love of money is the root of all evil which while coveted after, they have erred from the faith".
According to that scripture RWD and the Kekels have erred from the faith. Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into heaven. So I guess you think that RWD and Kekel are going to beat the odds hey? It has nothing to do with Jealousy. It had to do with you being a sucker and too blind to even care where your hard earned money goes because a manipulative brainwasher has convinced you to shut your brain off.
That's ok. Just keep giving your money away or I forgot, you don't have any money because you don't have a job. If you do you are not married or you breaking the NTCCs rules that don't apply to Tanya Kekel because she works at the NTCS. Oh thats right I missed that scripture. 1 NTCC 1:1 "young women shalt not work on a job unless they work at the NTCS. In such cases women shalt work on a job."
It's ok that you are brainwashed, so was I until the Lord set me free.
Jeff
Stephanie said...
And He is about souls which shows why there are so many people that love him and follow his teachings
Jeff said...
Really? Is that why the Bishop Eddie Long or Creflo Dollar both have about 25,000 people in their churches? These are the same guys that people like RWD and Ashmore talk about. Each of these guys have about 10 times more people in their churches than the NTCC, so does that mean that they love souls? According to RWD and Ashmore, the only thing they love is money!!!! Well ain't that the pot calling the kettle black!!!! You are brainwashed Stephanie.
So according to your logic, every who has money is blessed by God and everyone who has a lot of people in their church loves souls. The Catholic church is the largest land owner in the whole United States and they have millions more people than the NTCC, so does that mean they love souls and they are blessed by God? Your logic is useless. RWD doesn't love souls. The Catholic church loves souls more than he does. RWD loves money and as long as there are blind folks like you running around, he'll have plenty of it.
Jeff
You think I'm jealous Stephanie? Scroll to the bottom and click older posts about 5 times and you'll find three pictures of the front of my house. Make sure you click back one more past the picture of my front porch because it has a picture of my front yard and the whole front of my house. My front yard looks something like a scene at a golf course and then tell me if you think I'm jealous. I live good. You need to try and use that old jealous jargon on one of your NTCC buddies who is renting one of RWDs cottages and has never owned one of their own. I'm having NTCC flashbacks, LOL. You got me all stirred up with that jealous garbage. You must have heard RWD use that one before. I have. That is probably where you got it.
Jeff
Stephanie said: "If when you were attending you had a real relationship with God and weren't so critical and actually paid your tithe and gave in offering because the bible commands it and weren't thinking of where the money goes then maybe you would have been blessed that way too."
TB said:
Unfortunately Stephanie your simply mimicking the words of 'cult speak' that have permeated your brain. Can you specifically show me in the Bible (in the New Testament, to the gentile believers) God commanding people to pay tithe? Please do!
Again, your leaders have stolen the ability to use critical thinking skills. They reverse it and call it 'being critical, which is sin and jealousy'. It is your responsibility to make sure your money is going to an organization that is honoring God with it and not honoring man.
Can you not see what you wrote is brain washing 101? You are not sinning if you use your critical thinking skills, Kekel, Davis, Olson want you to obey them without thinking, this is the easy life, but it is not walking with God. Question everything a man says and prove it by the word of God! Be a berean! Don't let these scoundrels steal your youth, life, money and mind! Sincerely seek God and ask him to reveal to you if these men are not of God, he will, trust me. You must be open to receiving the answer even if it is not what you want.
Sincerely,
TB
The most devious aspect about the whole "don't think critical thoughts" brain washing doctrine is the fact that they are implying that if you keep your mouth shut and ignore the obvious, you may well be "blessed" by God like these false prophets appear to be! That is out and out evil. That is why so many who leave the NTCC become so angry, it is the fact that they allowed themselves to think the same exact thing "I may be blessed by God someday too,if I obey massa and neva question his authority!!" How demonic is that? It is anti-American, Anti-logic, anti-christian and most of all Anti-Christ!!
TB
TB said, "be a berean".
Don and Ange say,
Yes. They at least searched the scriptures to see if these things were so...
Or you can continue down the ntcc - pre-programmed response course, as you have begun:
***When x-ers show how the ntcc top leaders live in luxury while ntcc missionaries struggle without food or furniture, then the ntcc response is:
* "x-ers are jealous"
***When x-ers show how blessed they are, and how they are not one bit jealous of crooks like kekel and davis, then the ntcc response is:
* "x-ers are proud"
***When x-ers show how they are not proud, just stating facts to prove they are not jealous or proud, then the ntcc response is:
*** "x-ers are bitter"
------------------------
**** When the x-ers then ask the ntcc follower to defend the ntcc rules using the bible, the ntcc follower realizes they can not do this; because the ntcc rules are man-made doctrines, not bible commandments.
In fear and frustration the ntcc follower then says,
"It doesn't matter what I say, you people (x-ers) are going to do what you want anyway. So I'm just going to stop commenting." Yes, the ntcc follower just can't hack the real rules as laid out in the bible; so they have to take their ball and go back to the cult for more brainwashing li(n)es to be handed to them...
Do us all a favor and skip the middle steps here and just get to the last one; or do something new:
Read your bible.
Pray and ask God to show you His will without any man's selfish agendas attached to it.
Seek God's face.
Then you won't need to come to the blogs to learn the truth. Christ will show you Himself how much the ntcc has misrepresented Him.
Or you can continue following the ntcc men, and not following God. God said no man can serve two masters. Just make sure you choose the Right One, Jesus!
Don and Ange
Stephanie said...
"If when you were attending you had a real relationship with God and weren't so critical and actually paid your tithe and gave in offering because the bible commands it and weren't thinking of where the money goes then maybe you would have been blessed that way too."
Jeff said...
I did pay tithe, I wasn't critical and I gave in the offering. I probably payed more in tithe in one year than you've paid you your entire lifetime Stephanie. Once again, "STRIKE THREE, YOUR OUT STEPHANIE!!!!!!!!" Boy did you have me all wrong Stephanie. Every assumption you made was WRONG. So guess what that makes you in Biblical terms? A false witness. But it's ok because you did it ignorantly which is pretty much the way all NTCCers operate to include me when I was in the NTCC, (to a degree). I did retain my brain to a degree also which is why I'm no longer with the NTCC.
Stephanie, what you spewed out was what you've heard come across an NTCC pulpit and you took it as gospel and then you came on here figuring, "Boy I'm getting ready to show these folks!!!" "I'm going to hit them with both barrels blazing with all that stuff I've heard NTCC pastors use to blast their congregation!!!" "Boy I'm going to show them!!!"
And what happened Stephanie? You assumed I didn't have anything, WRONG. You assumed I didn't pay tithe, WRONG. You assumed I didn't throw my money away by placing it in the NTCC offering plate, WRONG. I did. And you assumed I was critical which I wasn't, WRONG again. You just struck out Stephanie. Oh I forgot. You assumed I was jealous of Mike Kekel's possessions when you ignorantly assumed that I didn't have plenty of my own, WRONG again. You've just been striking out all night Stephanie. I'm glad you are not on my partners baseball team. His team wouldn't still be undefeated. In fact with all your strike outs he'd have lost every game. If you can't hang with the big dogs you better stay on the porch and I've got two of them. Ha, ha. I can take it baby and you better believe that I can dish it out.
Now Stephanie, do you want to come up to bat again? I'm throwing nothing but heat right down the middle and you keep missing. The umpire can call the game if you've had enough? Now I'm just running up the score at this point.
Here's how it is. I got so sick and tired of hearing the NTCC's pulpit garbage that I no longer have any tolerance for it. Stephanie want to spew all that junk about jealousy, not paying tithe, not giving in the offering, not being blessed? I have zero tolerance for any of that trash. I'd tell RWD the same thing. The "woe is me" days are over. You hit me with that garbage and I'm coming right back at you and it doesn't matter if you are on the computer, in person, on the phone, a girl, I don't care.
I'm not being ugly. NTCC people want to blast me, I'll blast them right back. I'm not interested in all this self righteous rhetoric. If you had a relationship with God Stephanie than you might have had more wisdom than you just exibited by coming on here and making a bunch of assumptions that were obviously wrong. I'd say that every last person on this blog has paid tithe gladly while they were in the NTCC. I know I did. I'd say we all gave in the offering. I know I did. And I'd say that most of us are far more blessed now that we are out of the NTCC than we ever were while we were in.
So what were you saying Stephanie? It didn't amount to much that is for sure.
Jeff
Jeff
stephanie said...
"Why in the world would you concern yourself with other peoples issues? Lol you must have too much time on your hands."
Don and Ange say,
Now THAT is the pot calling the kettle black.
What are you doing concerning yourself with other people's issues? Lol, Stephanie YOU must have too much time on YOUR hands.
tanya kekel has so much time on her hands she has time to shop at Nieman Marcus in Seattle, to travel to Europe to buy fine crystal, to go online to buy antique furniture; to take grant to Disney; but she doesn't have time to clean her own house; she needs the mother with three kids and twelve other sisters to come over and do her work for her (all without pay, of course).
tanya can not do her own grocery shopping either. She needs a couple of sisters to go spend a couple hundred dollars for her at the grocers, while those same sisters have to make do with a $40 a week grocery budget; since that is what tanya's adopted daddy r w davis taught; along with teaching that children hinder the work of the borg, oops, Gawd. What a hypocrite.
Let's see, ntcc cult lines 101,
x-ers have no life.
ennh... wrong answer. ntcc cult members have no life. Look at their facebook pages and you will see what we mean. Nothing there. No interests. Friends only with other cult members. Scared to do anything. Only have time for cult meetings and nothing more. In fact, not too long ago ntcc cult members like you, Stephanie, were not even "allowed" to go online or watch T.V. or have friends over to the house without asking kekel or davis for permission first... cult
Next ntcc cult line from cult-lines 101:
x-ers have too much time on their hands.
Ha Ha. Who is jealous now? You wish you had time for something other than what the ntcc commands you to do, planning your days for you so your every waking moment is filled with ntcc, ntcc, ntcc!
Don't tell us that is serving God. Jesus IS God; yet while He was on this earth as a man He had time to go to a friend's wedding and time to eat with publicans and sinners. Try that at your cult and see what kind of reaction it gets. davis used to forbid people from visiting their own families on the way to and from mandatory conferences and at Christmas time. davis used to say, "Why do you want to spend time with your family? They are all just sinners anyway."
(Meanwhile your leaders days are filled with trips to the mall, and Europe, and long drives in expensive motor homes with nobody knowing where they go, how much they spend, what they do with all that cash that comes into the ntcc every day with no receipts or paper trail to monitor them.)
Better be careful, Stephanie. You may soon find that you won't have time to blog. The ntcc will make more rules to limit more of your time. They've done it in the past. Brothers were seen tossing a football back and forth. Bam. New rule: Two book reports are due. Now you don't have time to toss that football... Just one example.
Watch yourself Stephanie; because the ntcc leaders are going to be watching you. They know you've opened yourself up to the truth here. They will now be testing your loyalty to the borg. If you waver, they will get rid of you. But don't worry. We will accept you. See, the truth requires action. You can only ignore it for so long. But it will be there, calling to you. Jesus is the Truth. He stands at the door and knocks. Let Him in Stephanie. You will be glad you did. You will be shocked at how far from the Truth the ntcc 'leaders' are!
Read the Bible and see if Jesus acts the way the ntcc 'leaders' do. Then ask why don't the 'leaders' act like Jesus. That is what a Christian is supposed to do. Christian means "little Christ". Why don't the ntcc 'leaders' act like Jesus?
Don and Ange
Good points, especially on 1 Cor. 16:2. !!!
You are right... I don't work. I interpret the bible one way and you do so another way. Your interpretation is that women can work which is fine. If God does not convict you then I can't judge you. That's what I'm taught by my pastor. But it does convict me and I would rather listen to my conviction and be safe then sorry. And don't be so quick to make assumptions about our financial status. I don't work cuz my husband makes enough to provide for me. I may not have as much as you because I'm only 22 and were just starting our life but I own a beautiful cloth top toyota camry paid for in cash, a beautiful home with beautiful victorian furnishings, a big black and crystal chandelier in my dining room, i also own a very nice big flat screen computer we had custom made and i shop no whete near the thrift store. therrs nothing wrong with that though. every once in a while i do just to look for certain pieces i cant find anywhere else. And my husband is starting college soon to be a doctor and he does not get blasted for that. In fact he is encouraged to do so if he is mot called to preach. And I was just saying it seems like you're jealous cuz in all ur posts that's the main thing that's mentioned. Why does it really matter? Yes you became well to do by working hard but you think its easy to run a church? It's an occupation just as is yours. You work hard for your money but so does rev kekel. He doesn't just sit there and do nothing. He has a church to run...not only in Washington but all over the world that he has to take care of...he runs a bible college, and deals with his own problems as well as hundreds of other peoples problems. I think that is deserving of the blessings he has. And I know you don't keep quiet because of your so called bad experience but are they out there talkingg about you? You're just wasting away years of your life holding bitterness and hatred towards an organization and people your not even associated with anymore. Bitterness can cause diseases and early death.
Tb...I do not live in washington so i dont hear Wut u call cult speak nor do i mimicking cult speak. I do what I do and say what i say because I want to not because I'm forced. I've never heard it enforced to pay all this money like you guys make it sound. You make it sound like we have no brain of our own. Were not robots. We move as the Lord says...
My youth, life, money and mind are not stolen. My youth is a great one. i dont battle or regret being where I am. Attending church and church functions is not a drudgery for me. I'm not sure which one you attended where you thiught your life was wasted but I enjoy my life. Being a Christian is fun. My money is not stolen...we tithe our ten percent and give offering according to what God lays on our heart. And plus it doesn't bother me because it goes to support my dads church which is the one we attend. And my mind is not stolen. I think and speak for myself.
So Jeff your gonna get on me for making assumptions about you when you clearly did the same about me? Don't be a hypocrite. You made lots of assumptions about me and you don't even know me. I made assumptions about you based on what you write over and over.
Don and ange...what all you guys write is not truth so I dont accept it...I will not be gotten rid of because I will not waiver. You will not accept me because I will not give in to all this trash. That's all it is. And it clearly shows that what you guys say is not true because if it was there would be hundreds of people leaving but they're not. In fact its growing. And you guys have your personal reasons for thinking the way you do but its not truth...and that is shown by the amount of followers Jeff has. its the same about 5 people that comment and believe the same. Nobody else is interested in reading or believing garbage.
Well I guess (know) I have better things to do...like preparing for conference. CONFERENCE HERE I COME! WOOHOO! anyways I'm out...you won't be hearing anything else from me. Peace
Jeff's House pics:
Jeff's House, Front Yard
Jeff's House and Yard 2
Jeff's Front Porch and Front of His House(Two Pictures)
Wow, Jeff; you really must be jealous. NOT. :o)
Stephanie said...
You are right... I don't work. I interpret the bible one way and you do so another way. Your interpretation is that women can work which is fine. If God does not convict you then I can't judge you. That's what I'm taught by my pastor.
Jeff said...
I don't interpret the Bible. I read it and understand it. If it's plain it's plain. You and your pastor are wrong and that is not based on an interpretation. That is a fact. If you and your pastor are right then Proverbs 31 and Priscilla were both wrong. Keepers at home means to be a "good house keeper." "Domestically inclined." Look it up and stop taking your pastors word for it. Why does Tanya work? Because RWD doesn't want to control her but he wants to control you!!!! The Bible is not up for any private interpretation and that is exactly what the NTCC does.
Once again I don't interpret it. I read it and I don't make something out of it that it doesn't say. I didn't make any assumptions about you. I stated known facts that exist in the NTCC that almost all women fall under except of course Tanya!!! And the other married women who the NTCC has allowed to work while they were in Korea. You didn't know that did you? You also didn't know that the NTCC pastor in Atlanta got permission for a "MARRIED" women to get a job in Atlanta? So if it's such a sin, (which it's not) than why does the NTCC leadership make exceptions for certain women? Because it's not a sin and they know it but RWD is a chauvinist and he will be in control of everyone, especially women!!!
It's not about the Bible, it's about RWDs chauvinist ways and his need to control women. Wake up Stephanie and learn the Bible for yourself and don't just take your pastors word for it because he is wrong.
Jeff
Jeff
Anonymous said...
Jeff's House pics:
Jeff said...
Thanks. That did make it easier. Hey my house ain't no mansion but I live good and I certainly don't have anything to be jealous of.
Jeff
Stephanie said...
And it clearly shows that what you guys say is not true because if it was there would be hundreds of people leaving but they're not.
Jeff said...
Are you completely blind? There are thousands who've left the NTCC. You must be living in a shell. Preachers leave the NTCC all the time. That is nothing new. Millions of people stay with the Catholic church so does that mean it's Godly? Your logic absolutely stinks. If your logic is right than the NTCC is wrong. The NTCC says all kinds of other churches are all messed up. They talk about every denomination imaginable. Well all those churches have way more people than the NTCC so according to your logic, Ashmore, RWD the BLOWHARDS must be wrong for talking about these other churches.
So if a church has people who aren't leaving that must mean it's a godly church, is that right? Go ahead and go to conference so you can learn about PA systems. WOOPIE.
Jeff
Stephanie said...
we tithe our ten percent and give offering according to what God lays on our heart.
Jeff said...
So I guess God came to you one day and said, "STEPHANIE"!!!! Give the NTCC TEN PERCENT.
No. You were taught that by the NTCC. God didn't lay it on your heart. The NTCC pastor did. Now you just follow it blindly while thinking if you don't give your money to the NTCC you won't make it to heaven. Show me where it says that in the New Testament. Paul didn't even accept money from the Corinthians. So I guess Paul sent them all to hell? If that is the case why do you even read his epistles?
The reality is you don't. You see the words but you don't understand them because the NTCC won't allow you to. You either understand the Bible the NTCC way or you can hit the highway. Well maybe not. As long as you continue to give them your tithe money they'd probably let you stick around for a while.
I understand Stephanie, you are brainwashed just like I was and you can't think for yourself. People stuck with Adolph Hitler so did that make him a good guy?
Jeff
Jeff I have a question for you. I was a follower of your blog until Stephanie opened my eyes. If she is tithing and paying offering because the Lord deals with her (which you can't say he isnt) then why would you persuade her to do otherwise? Now I see you are being used by the devil. You are trying to turn people away from God. If they are blinded as you say then let them be. But apparently a lot of people are in ntcc because they want to be and they have no problems with the church. You are making yourself look bad trying to get people out of where they are happy and serving God just because you think its a cult? If you think God led you out of ntcc then why don't you go do a work for him instead of trying to run people off with your gossip. I know its not the Lord that made you start this blog because he hates gossiping and that's all your about. You're doing more damage than help. People that are in ntcc are not a brainwashed people. They are simply doing what they want. If they are mistreated they can leave it but they're not. All the years I was there I saw no fault in mike or rwd or anyone for that matter. I left because I did not want to follow the bible. I'm ready now though. I think I'll go back.;-)
"All the years I was there I saw no fault in mike or rwd or anyone for that matter. I left because I did not want to follow the bible. I'm ready now though. I think I'll go back.;-)"
To really leave NTCC, you must do more than remove your body. It is apparent that you never got beyond that. You're not going back; you never got away.
Anonymous said...
If she is tithing and paying offering because the Lord deals with her (which you can't say he isnt) then why would you persuade her to do otherwise? Now I see you are being used by the devil. You are trying to turn people away from God.
Jeff said...
I'm not being used by the devil. There you go with that same old NTCC jargon. Let me tell you something. I listened to NTCC pastor after pastor after pastor teach more about tithing during church services, so called Bible studies, (which really were no more than one way conversations) Monday questions and answers meeting and every other occasion they could dream up by far more than any other subject. By far. They talked more about tithing than any other subject by far and I'm supposed to believe that throughout all that, God decided to deal with her also? So you are telling me that Gods main concern for humanity is that people pay tithe to the NTCC or any other church for that matter?
If Gods main concern is that people pay tithe, than why didn't it get mentioned by James, Peter, John, Paul, Jude or anyone else for that matter in the entire New Testament Bible as a mandate?
Used by the devil? Please. Maybe God is trying to use me to be a voice to warn people not to give their money to all these crooked churches which results in these good hearted Christians winding up broke all the time? Did you ever think of that? No of course not. God may place it on your heart to help the poor and needy, (which you can find in the New Testament) but show me where Christians payed tithe in the New Testament. You can't find it and 1Cor 16:2 that the NTCC uses is bogus because it has nothing to do with tithing. The NTCC is making merchandise of their people and the New Testament sure does talk about that.
I obviously can't prove that God didn't place it on her heart but neither you or Stephanie can prove that he did. I tell you what I can prove: Once again, NTCC pastors teach tithing as much or more than any other subject and I witnessed it and I had 6 NTCC pastors and went to numerous conferences. RWD talked about money constantly in conference.
Money, money, money, money, money!!! And I'm supposed to believe that God laid it on her heart? All logical probability would suggest otherwise. That is the most evidence that anyone will come forth with concerning this subject.
Jeff
Anonymous asked...
If you think God led you out of ntcc then why don't you go do a work for him instead of trying to run people off with your gossip.
Jeff said...
Why did Jesus talk more about the Pharisees and Scribes and religious groups than any other group by far. He was more concerned with these religious vipers than he was with common every day non religious sinners. So why don't you go blast Jesus in prayer and asked him why he spent so much time warning people of the Pharisees rather than serving his Father? Ah! You won't have any answer for that one.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Jeff said...
And you claim that the devil is using me. Was he using Jesus? NO and he is not using me either. The NTCC makes people twofold more the child of hell than themselves and I believe that and in the process they not only deceive people but they make them go broke. Then when people finally get wise to the NTCC's ways, they've invested 25 years of their life to the NTCC and they are almost 50 years old or more and they have to start life all over again dead broke, having cut off relationships with their most dear loved ones such as parents, children, and other relatives.
The NTCC is a plague. A virus. A sickness and I'm here to help cure people and open their eyes. Jesus would call them a generation of vipers and he did in his word. Mat 23:15 was directed at churches just like the NTCC with the NTCC obviously being included. No doubt.
It may not matter to you if people waste their entire lives with a double standard organization just to wind up twofold more the child of hell then they were before they ever started but it matters to me.
Jeff
Anonymous said....
They are simply doing what they want. If they are mistreated they can leave it but they're not. All the years I was there I saw no fault in mike or rwd or anyone for that matter. I left because I did not want to follow the bible. I'm ready now though. I think I'll go back.
Jeff said...
You say they are doing what they want? They are doing what they are taught by some false teachers. How many folks did you know who ran around in wingtips and white shirts looking like they came from the 50s prior to going to the NTCC? How many GIs do you see running around Ft Benning with wingtips, white shirts and their hair all greased up and combed to the side? NONE. They are taught that dressing like that is one of the things that Christianity is all about. And you know why? Because RWD is an old dude and that is what he grew up with. More people are pushed away with that kind of dress than are drawn to it because they think you are a JW or Mormon. They imediately shut you down. They are not doing what they want to do, they are doing what they are told to do because they can't think for themselves and as soon as the NTCC changes the standards, (like they do all the time) the brainwashed will change right with them while looking back and laughing about the whole wingtip thing.
And they will be glad to get you back as long as you start you tithing real quick. The NTCC can use folks like you. The blind leading the blind.
Jeff
Preach it!!!!
You know what... my one comment is where I'm gonna leave it. You have proven to rebuttal e.v.e.r.y single thing so I just see it as a waste of time trying to debate with you. You will always b right in your own eyes.
Anonymous said,
"Jeff I have a question for you. I was a follower of your blog until Stephanie opened my eyes."
Don and Ange said,
Stephanie got her but handed to her on this blog. The blind leading the blind. That's an understatement.
Jeff said,
"If Gods main concern is that people pay tithe, than why didn't it get mentioned by James, Peter, John, Paul, Jude or anyone else for that matter in the entire New Testament Bible as a mandate?"
Don and Ange said:
It all can be summed up by 2 Cor 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Not as RWD purposes in his heard but as you purpose in your heart. Not of necessity? Where is the 10% mandate? If "All Christians pay tithes and give in offerings" than is it not of necessity? If you follow the ntcc's teachings on mandatory tithe and offerings than you must not believe this scripture. You are giving out of necessity and The Lord loves a cheerful giver much more than one that is doing it because he has been commanded to do so.
I will say this of the ntcc. They had to tear this verse out of the bible and make up their own doctrine to convince people that they owe this money to God and that if they don't pay it they will burn in hell. You can't buy your way into heaven as proven by the old testament. People failed to live up to all the laws and ordinances of the OT and this is why the ultimate sacrifice was made. You want to give to God? God wants your life, not your money. The ntcc gives lip service to God. I'm sure one reason why tithing is not mandatory in the NT is because God didn't want a bunch of abusive preachers getting rich off of his people.
So the next time some abusive jerk tells you that you have to pay tithe to be a Christian, ask that abusive jerk what he has done with 2 Cor 9:7? Go ahead and give all your hard earned money to the ntcc and have nothing to show for your life and decades down the line when RWD sticks his finger in your face and runs you off don't blame the X-er community. We've been there and done that; we have the T-shirts, certificates and trophies. We know what we are talking about. Go ahead and give until your family has to do without, God will provide, just like he did for the homeless Hamptons in Mexico, MO.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange: Preach!!!
Don you made some good points indeed on the "mandatory money payment" necessity "pay money" or your not a Christian "belief." GOD LOVETH A CHEERFUL GIVER! You don't pay money in order to continue to be a Christian.
tithing existed before the law!
Burnt offerings existed before the law also!!! You won't get Paul or any of the N.T. writers to go along with your "mandatory payment plan." Offerings yes.
Here's my synopsis on the Tithe you can read the whole articles here or listen to a short explination.
http://ntccpasadenatx.org/blogs2/?s=tithe
Tithing Existed before the law.
Animal Sacrifices Existed before the Law.
Circumcision Existed Before the Law.
Dietary Requriements Existed before the law.
Act 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
Act 11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
Act 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
Animal sacrifices were removed by scripture
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Heb
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Circumcision Removed by scriptureal authority.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Dietary Requirments were removed by scriptural authority.
Tithe was NOT removed with scriptural authority. The last voice we have on the subject was Jesus stamping his Seal of Approval on the tithe.
That all I need to know!
Way to go RB, twisting scripture like your leaders! very impressive. Have you done any real research on the topic? If tithe were truly required don't you think God would have maybe mentioned it at least once in the New Testament? On the contrary, Giving is mentioned extensively with absolutely no mention of tithe! hmmm. also, let's not forget that Acts 15 mentions the only requirements for the gentile are.....go ahead, you tell me...
tb
RB,
I am not trying to be rude here, but have you ever read a book or taken a course on hermeneutics? everyone that has been associated with ntcc would do well to do so. There are principles of scripture interpretation that keep us in line and from deviating from the truth
tb
anonymous said, "tithing existed before the law!" MARCH 24, 2011 6:27 PM
Don and Ange say,
DUH! SO DID CIRCUMCISION!
BUT GETTING YOUR FORESKIN CUT OFF WON'T GET YOU INTO HEAVEN AND NEITHER WILL PAYING TITHE.
You 'tithe or go-to-hell' preachers will have to answer to God for teaching this false doctrine the same way that the false teachers cursed by the Apostle Paul were deserving, in his words, to be "cut off" because they tried to turn people from God's free gift of salvation thru faith in Christ into a works doctrine -- falsely teaching that the new converts to Christianity still had to be circumcised. WRONG! Read Galatians especially chapter five. KNOW THE TRUTH! Stop spitting up something that others have spoon-fed you. Read the Bible yourself and live what it teaches, not what selfish men with selfish agendas teach!
Don and Ange
for example:
one thing that stood out to me when I read RC Sproul's book on hermeneutics- For anything to be considered a doctrine it must be
1. Mentioned in the Gospels
2. Practiced in the book of Acts
3. Explicitly taught in the epistles
I don't think tithing was practiced in the book of Acts (that we know of) and it certainly is not taught in the epistles
What do you think?
Anonymous said,
"I would say Pastor Davis has been abused much more than most." March 12, 2011 2:51 PM
Don and Ange say,
r dub is only reaping what he has sown! May God send him people just like him!
If that makes you mad it is because you really know how mean and abusive r dub is!
RB said,
"Tithing Existed before the law.
Animal Sacrifices Existed before the Law.
Circumcision Existed Before the Law."
Don and Ange,
Thanks RB for that synopsis and I can understand the strong push for money. Personally, I don't have a problem with tithe, probably paid closer to 20% than I did to 10% while I was in the ntcc. The problem that I have with tithe is that it is preached as a requirement and a person who does not pay tithe is not considered to be a Christian.
You listed 3 examples of things that existed before the law and two of them were specifically mentioned as no longer required in the NT. There are many things mentioned in the law that were not done away with in the New Testament specifically, but I have to say that when Jesus said, it is finished, he was talking about the old testament law and the ordinances, and the rituals that went along with it.
As for things that were instituted before the law and continued by the law, there are many examples of things that were done a certain way in the old testament that are no longer carried forward in the New Testament.
If a preacher in any organization is going to use scripture to condemn people to hell than the burden of proof falls upon that preacher to show specific scriptures in the New Testament that condemn people for not paying tithe. People can pay tithe till the cows come home and they will be blessed for it only if they do it cheerfully and not begrudgingly.
What is the difference if they do it out of necessity or if you preach at them and require them to do it out of necessity? I think that many people stay in the ntcc because they are terrified at the consequences of leaving. They are staying out of necessity rather than of free will. I stayed for years out of free will but when I realized it was a hopeless situation, I stayed a few more years and warmed a pew while still paying tithe out of necessity, thinking that these things were going to get me to heaven.
If it's not of faith, its not any good. Here's an Old Testament scripture for you, "For the Just shall live by faith". Just as the law that was 430 years after the promise could not disannull the promise, neither 2 millienium after the law was done away with through the sacrifice of the Son of God can tithing purchase you a ticket on a train bound for glory.
I would that the ntcc would spend as much time and energy preaching about love as they do tithe. I know love does not pay the bills, but remember, "kissing is good, but biscuits are better" to which we add especially if your honey has biscuit lips!
Don and Ange
no matter when tithe existed, the purpose of the tithe was for the levites. Also it was never money. never, ever.
someone once told me that we should follow the spirit of the law. This is all well and good if one wants to give 10%. BUT, the Bible does not teach this.
The Bible teaches in the NT that we are to give from the heart. Not of necessity or compulsion. If you give a dollar and it's from your heart, this is well pleasing to God just the same as if you gave 10 million dollars. It's the heart that matters, not following the letter of the law.
RB, the example that you gave in Acts 11 showing that dietary requirements were done away with is no more conclusive than 2 Cor 9:7 proving that mandatory tithing is done away with.
2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Once again, look up the word "necessity" in Strongs. Here is the definition and it's specific.
"necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law"
So that clearly indicates that we are not bound to give because of a "LAW" but we give when we want to and because we want to. It's not a mandate.
That word "necessity" is key and it's just as much evidence that mandatory giving was done away with as the scriptures that you used to prove that dietary requirements were done away with.
And not only that but once again your argument is flawed anyway. The New Testament hardly makes any specific reference to 99% of the old testament laws being done away with. So are we supposed to assume that if the New Testament doesn't specifically mention doing away with a specific Old Testament law that we are still supposed to adhere to it? That notion would be absurd and if you had to try to cross reference the Old and New Testaments to see which ones were done away with and which ones weren't you could never figure them all out anyway and hence you could never be saved by grace because you would be placing yourself back under the law to solidify your salvation.
Pastor Briggs. Either we are no longer under the law or we are but you can't have it both ways. Tithing isn't a moral issue. We still must practice morality. It was a civil issue. It was a "law" that was established as a duty, not to show adherence to a standard of morality.
Steeling, immoral. Rape, immoral. Murder, immoral. Not paying tithe? Not immoral at all! Jews gave 10% of their increase because it was their duty as was directly by "THEIR" law. Well the New Testament says that we don't give because of necessity i.e. because of a law, but as we purpose in "OUR" hearts. The Jews law is not our law so therefor it's not our duty and it's not immoral if you don't pay tithe.
Once again, that New Testament doesn't say we should no longer take our rebellious children out and have them stoned to death but I don't see the NTCC practicing that one just because the New Testament didn't formally do away with it.
Jeff
RB is hell-bent on preaching his tithe doctrine! I admire your passion RB!
Tithe is a wonderful, orderly, easy to understand system for funding the modern local church.
However,
Tithe is not a soul saving act. Non-Tithe is not a soul damning act.
If we accept your weak and questionable method of teaching, saying: "not removed by New Testament scripture", it is still erroneous to preach that a saved person ceases to be a child of God if they do not pay tithe.
The Israelites were children of the Pre-Law Abraham, and children of that Promise to Abraham.
The Israelites who did not pay tithe did not lose their citizenship as Israelites. Failure to pay tithe did not mean they stopped being children of Abraham and of Abraham's promise.
Your favorite portion of scripture, used to push mandatory tithe proves my statement:
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
God did not "consume" the sons of Jacob, although they had failed, and in some cases refused to pay tithe to the Lord, in accordance with His Old Testament law. They were still "sons of Jacob" and God did not violate his promise that they would always be.
We have no New Testament Law which specifically enumerates a punishment for not paying tithe.
It is error and fallacy to teach that Christianity is dependent on the payment of money and it is error to teach that the failure to pay money results in the loss of our status as joint-heirs with Christ.
That's Bible.
I am rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
Once again, I am not anti-Tithe. I pay tithe gladly, out of a cheerful heart. I am not "sowing discord".
Even Pastor Davis has preached that Tithing will not get you into heaven. Surely you remember hearing him at some point preach that.
He taught to say "All christians pay tithe" because it would psychologically affect the people in the congregation to pay it and/or to ask the pastor about it, so the pastor could tell them to pay it.
As Jesus said:
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Show me a man who lives the Love of God and I will show you a man who is not after your money.
Caesar
Hey Ceasar I didn't bother reading your whole post because it's just too funny... can you please show me where I said someone goest to hell for not paying tithe? Please.. show me..
I posted my two cents because it KEEPS COMING UP HERE.. is that ok with you? Or do I need your permission? Stop putting words in my mouth or rather on my computer screen. Stick to what I say and don't fancy that you know what I think. You don't.
Jeff.. now come one.. you know the difference between a free-will offering and a tithe... don't try to mix the two things together. You know your argument is weak and that my points are sound. So your trying to muddy the waters with distraction. 2 Cor is speaking of a free will offering to help the believers in Jerusalem. Remember "TITHES AND OFFERINGS" we are not talking about the Offerings but the tithe.
Don... I listed 4 things that were listed Prior to the Giving of the Mosaic Law that were instituted by God BEFORE there was ever a written requirment of ANYTHING.
1. Tithe
2. Circumcision
3. Animal Sacrifices.
4. Dietary Restriction
Of these FOUR things 3 of them were done away with by God in the New Testament Covenant BY NAME, Specifically. They are
1. Circumcision
2. Animal Sacrifices
3. Dietary Restriction.
Yest no such scripture exists to remove the tithe. My point is clear, conciise and to the point.
God is not haphazard, He does all things decent and in order. Not only is it unlikely it is also unimaginable that God would take the time to remove 3 out of 4 pre-mosaic law requirements with written scriputre and leave one of them to float around in limbo. It causes too much confusion.
You can not brodly brush away God's instituted ordenances by saying "THE LAW WAS DONE AWAY" because the Tithe Existed BEFORE THE LAW.
For the Fella that said "Tithe was never money, never ever"
Let's undrstand something. If I give a portion of my merchandizable Crops that have a Market value and give that it is the same as giving away the cash. Any elementary school child knows that. It's simple economics. Crops, seeds, cattle, all held value. Giving them, or giving the equivalent in cash all amounts to the same thing.
There are provision in the Mosaic law to convert the price of a persons tithe to Cash so that it would make the journey to Jerusalem easier. When they got to the Temple they were not required to go out and my a bush of grain, or a bag of seeds in order to "pay their tithe with it".
TB... God did mention it once in the NT... actually it is recorded twice in the NT...
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
NOW I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU TB
Don't you think if God removed it he would give at least once scripture like He has in virtually every other instance of other elements of requirement he had removed? I mean come on He is not the author of confusion and by starting something before the Law, confirming it by Jesus's own words, and then going silent it gives every indication that the tithe is still current.. so to eliminate confusion if he took it out of the way with Animal sacrifices, Dietary restrictions, Sabbath days, New Moons, and Circumcision, He would have given us at least one scripture BUT HE DID NOT.......
Your the ones that need to prove it's done away... not us! I teach people to do what the Bible tells them to do... And the only time I tell them "You don't have to do that" is when it is clearly evident through God's written word that they "DON"T HAVE TO DO THAT".
Sounds like you like to skate on thin ice though because you teach people to abstain from their responsibilites based on the silence of God on an issue that is well established. Legally unless a obligation is removed through edict it is STILL IN EFFECT!
RB said:
can you please show me where I said someone goest to hell for not paying tithe? Please.. show me..
February 25, 2011 3:30 PM
RB said...
Ceasar... you tread dangerously when you interfer and are NOT speaking as the oracles of God. When you over throw someone's faith simply because you believe it to be wrong.
Again... you show no proof tithe is gone... and agree it is to be done.
Tithing is not a "work" it is an act of Obedience. The works referred to in those passages are concerning a persons use of their TIME. The persuits of their lives. The directions and goals which they go after. These are either wood hay stubble, or gold jews and prescious things.
Tithe is NOT a work! And you would do well to study before you take it in hand to try to persuade men and women otherwise and sow seeds of doubt and discord in their minds. Becuase we do know that there are 6 things which the Lord hates and the 7th is an abomination... "He that soweth discord among the breathren"
I got to say this again...
If something existed before the Law.. it can not be Done away with the law because the Law did not inact it in the first place....
Is that so hard to understand.
Now RB, Seriously, do you really believe tithe is not a work? If it isn't a work, what is it?
Another RB quote:
February 25, 2011 3:30 PM
RB said...
Ceasar... you tread dangerously when you interfer and are NOT speaking as the oracles of God. When you over throw someone's faith simply because you believe it to be wrong.
Again... you show no proof tithe is gone... and agree it is to be done.
Tithing is not a "work" it is an act of Obedience. The works referred to in those passages are concerning a persons use of their TIME. The persuits of their lives. The directions and goals which they go after. These are either wood hay stubble, or gold jews and prescious things.
Tithe is NOT a work! And you would do well to study before you take it in hand to try to persuade men and women otherwise and sow seeds of doubt and discord in their minds. Becuase we do know that there are 6 things which the Lord hates and the 7th is an abomination... "He that soweth discord among the breathren"
In this quote, RB says tithe is a post salvation obligational requirement as a christian. Now does that obligation imply a judgment of hell if not followed?
Another RB quote:
February 25, 2011 2:54 PM
RB said...
And CEASar Please stop trying to make it seem that I am putting tithe as a PRE-requisite it is not.... it is a POST-requisite.
Pre being BEFORE
Post Being After
Tithe does nothing before salvation.
Tithe is a obligational requirement After salvation. There is a big difference.
If someone tells the truth that doesn't mean they are saved. But once saved, the will tell the truth. Agreed?
Same, same. Paying tithe does not save a person, but a saved person will pay tithe (in my faith and understanding of scripture)
Are you laughing with me RB?
Another quote from RB:
February 25, 2011 2:51 PM
RB said...
This quote from RB was in response to the statement that Mal 3 tells us a financial curse is upon those who don't pay tithe:
Greed, Stinginess, liberaity, and generosity all have bearing on eternal life.
Just as lies, hypocricy, faithfulness, and devotion have an equal bearing.
I don't think Cursed people as you called them will enter into Eternal life.
Caesar says:
If cursed people don't enter Eternal life, then where do they go?
RB?
And another quote from RB, who is laughing......
February 25, 2011 2:09 PM
RB said...
Ceasar,
Faith is the only thing that saves us... but obedience to God requires faith. If you agree you tithe brings blessing and non-tithing brings God's curse you exibit faith... faith that motivates you to be pleasing to God and Pay your required amount.
Nonpayment in your case would amount to rebellion because you've already said you "believe" it's what he wants. His curse in life will not gain his pleasure in the after life.
Can't you see that? The statement we use.. in this case is a statement of the obvious.
----
RB, are you implying here that a person will go to hell if they don't pay tithe?
Hey RB, now don't get all huffy at me.
Remember:
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
I posted those quotes in response to your challenge asking where you said it.
My only point is you can't preach tithe as a heaven or hell issue, even to saved children of God.
It is not a heaven or hell issue and God never made it a heaven or hell issue to Abraham, nor to the Levites who paid tithe to Melchisidec in the loins of Abraham.
Ceasar.. where did I make it a heaven or hell issue? Becuase I don't believe it is... so agian.. why do you keep putting words in my mouth that I have not spoken or typed?
Cursed people go to hell.. but not for not paying tithe.. but for not being obedient...
RB
Will you please answer the following questions?:
1. Considering the amount of corruption and public scandals that are present in many churches today (all denominations), do you think it is wise for a minister to drive luxury cars and live in big, luxurious houses?
2. If the Apostle Paul were alive today, do you think he would live in a house as big and luxurious as the house that RWD is living in?
3. What do you think is a reasonable annual salary for a Pastor living in Graham, Washington (ballpark)?
4. What do you think the Apostle Paul would consider a reasonable annual salary for a Pastor living in Graham, Washington?
5. I believe that every member of a church congregation should know where every penny of their tithes and offerings are being spent (i.e., Pastor’s salary, building upkeep, missions, etc.). A lack of financial transparency opens the door for the devil to cast doubt in the member’s minds. Do you believe in total financial transparency to your congregation? If not, why not?
6. Do you believe that the leaders of the NTCC spend the tithes and offerings responsibly and in a way that pleases God?
Thank you for your consideration.
quoted from above:
Let's undrstand something. If I give a portion of my merchandizable Crops that have a Market value and give that it is the same as giving away the cash. Any elementary school child knows that. It's simple economics. Crops, seeds, cattle, all held value. Giving them, or giving the equivalent in cash all amounts to the same thing.
this isn't true because in the Old Testament, God had instructed that "if the tithe is too heavy to carry then convert it to money and buy with it whatever you wish".
tithe is not a requirement at all.
tithe is not even taught about in the NT. Jesus mentioned it because they were still living "OT" at that time.
The Bible speaks about giving in our day and age. there is no mention on a certain amount or percentage that must be given.
DJ... First is this Damion?
Second you asked some pretty pointed question designed to get me to condemn my leaders, and more importantly fellow christians in a puplic forum. While your question are based on subjective things, there is one definitive "Brother should not go to law against brother" especailly before "the unbelievers". So I hope you can understand I will not answer these questions. Repharse them and I can consider.
Suffice it for now for me to say, just as many here keep saying "nowhere in NT scripture does it say that tithe is required" I say "Nowhere in NT scripture does it say that the NT minister has to vow a vow of poverty. Each person be they laity or leadership answers to God and their own concience (oh, yeah, and their wives if they are men)about where they live, and how big their house is.
"you asked some pretty pointed question designed to get me to condemn my leaders, and more importantly fellow christians in a puplic forum."
RB, apparently you feel that your leaders are guilty as charged and you don't want to condemn yourself by saying so.
Take the first step and say so!!! You will be free from these hirelings! move on!
TB
Thanks for the response, RB.
I am not Damion. I was probably gone before you got involved with the organization.
My questions are not designed to get you to condemn your leaders. These are the kinds of questions that many people have been asking themselves since at least the 1980’s. Unfortunately, not many of us had the courage to ask an NTCC leader such questions directly. I am guessing that some people are still asking themselves similar questions today.
The NTCC’s lack of transparency and double standards have, at a minimum, damaged the organization. I won’t speculate on how many believers and non-believers have been turned away by it all.
Finally, I don’t think that a minister should take a vow of poverty. In fact, I believe a minister should have a comfortable existence. But in a generation of Jimmy Swaggarts and Jim Bakers, I don’t believe that an organization’s leaders should be driving high-end luxury cars and living in luxurious mansions. Especially organizations that are ultra secretive about their finances. Such behavior is bound to cause suspicion, dissension and attacks by believers and non-believers alike. It is the opposite of avoiding the ‘appearance of evil’.
its ok for a minister to drive nice cars and have big houses and whatever else they want as long as it was gotten properly.
using church funds is not a way to get these things properly and that is what many people (past, present and in the future) have and will do.
they may cook the books, but God knows exactly what they are doing with the money and they will have to answer for it.
if i was a minister and drove around in a big car and had a big house, i would be able to show it was from my own sources and not the church money.
The question is not "would you be able to prove it" the question in "would we feel the need to prove it". No matter what you do, when someone hates who you are, what you stand for, and what you have, no amount of "showing them" will suffice. They will always have soemthing snarky to say, some allegation to make, and some mud to sling. It get pointless.
TB... you sure like to be an arm chair psychologist don't you. It can't be what I say.. no... I'm covering up my deep seated belif that they are guilty. Give me a little bit of credit. If I think someone or something is wrong I can say so. But I do believe there is a proper place... and this blog, or the internet in general is not that place.
If I start talking specifics about people that left I am a hater and a fault finder and a gossip and well you get the point. But the same people that will brand me such names will turn around and ask me to talk bad about my friends and leaders.. why?
Are there things some do that I would not do... of course!
Are there things that I think some do that cause problems in the long run... Yes!
Are there some things that people do that give the wrong appearance? Yes!
But to their own master they stand or fall. People that do not like these things can choose to go elsewhere. People that see no sin in their actions can stay. It seems simple when you look at it this way. And I prefer to keep it simple... maybe that makes me stupid? Some will no doubt say "yes it does" but I have 3 human beings in this life that I actually care about what they think of me... my wfie, my daughter, and my son. The rest can love me or leave me it makes me no nevermind. (I say that tongue in cheek)
RB said:
Anonymous RB said...
Ceasar.. where did I make it a heaven or hell issue? Becuase I don't believe it is... so agian.. why do you keep putting words in my mouth that I have not spoken or typed?
March 26, 2011 2:09 AM
Anonymous RB said...
Cursed people go to hell.. but not for not paying tithe.. but for not being obedient...
March 26, 2011 2:11 AM
RB, now that is funny! Out of respect for you, I did read your entire post, and RB says tithe is not a heaven and hell issue.....
I am apparently unable to discern the true meaning of your typing, speech, and blog comments. You have rebuked me several times for not understanding your true meaning.
Will you please state, in the simplest terms possible with no potential for misinterpretation, the true and correct Biblical teaching concerning tithe and the New Testament christian, including and specifically, the relationship between an individual's eternal destiny and that individual paying money to a church?
I think I understand your argument concerning the tithe being in force before the law, and not removed by scripture in the New Testament etc, etc.
I am interested more in how paying or not paying tithe, specifically, affects a person's eternal destiny.
Thanks for your time and effort,
Caesar
RB said...
Cursed people go to hell.. but not for not paying tithe.. but for not being obedient...
Jeff said...
That is just a play on words Pastor Briggs. If you believe that someone who does not pay tithe becomes cursed, and as a result they go to hell, than they went to hell because they didn't pay tithe. So therefor one can not say by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourself it is a give of God, not of works.
This is what it should read. By paying tithe are ye saved through works, not of grace but by obedience to the old testament law because if you don't pay tithe you'll be cursed and go to hell.
Well it doesn't say that or imply that anywhere in the New Testament. The Bible does not say that Abraham aways paid tithes on everything he had anyway. It was an occurrence that was recorded to have taken place only ONE TIME prior to the law. Gen 14:20. There is no other record of anyone to include Abraham paying tithe at any other time prior to the law. So the fact is Pastor Briggs, you can't even say it was a continual practice prior to the law because the Bible does not show that to be the case. For you to suggest that is purely speculation not based on any Biblical evidence what so ever.
I just looked up the words, tithes and tithe and it's only found one time prior to Leviticus. Gen 14:20. So Melchizedek blesses Abram and then someone gave someone tithe and actually the Bible isn't very clear who did the giving. Read it. Nevertheless it was a one time occurrence and the Bible certainly doesn't say it was a common practice nor is that even implied.
Pastor Briggs, the more I look into this whole tithe thing, the less compelling your argument becomes. You say that tithing existed before the law but actually it didn't because it was only a one time occurrence and you can't claim otherwise because it's not written in the Bible. So if you want to take that one instance to support your plea, than that means it should be OK to pay tithe only one time just like Abram did. And before someone corrects me, in Gen 14 he was not called Abraham yet, he was still Abram.
Truly Pastor Briggs, your conclusions about tithing have no substance. Based upon my latest Biblical research on tithing, I'm more convinced now that it's not a mandate than I was one hour ago if that is even possible because I was quite convinced then!!
So Abram pays tithes one time and now folks want to make it a Biblical mandate to pay 10% on every dime you earn? Tithing was not even remotely a common practice prior to the law and certainly not a mandate and when the law ended, tithing ended right along with it and to suggest otherwise is deceitful. If you want to hold on to the law then you are not saved by grace.
That is dangerous ground to tread on. What if you stand before Jesus and he says,
"Pastor Briggs, you truly weren't saved by grace and you truly didn't have faith in my blood because you not only believe but taught that you could not be saved unless you paid tithe, and that my blood alone wasn't good enough. Therefore Sir, you didn't have enough faith in my blood. You had too much faith in your own works making the sacrifice of my blood of none effect."
You said the people who claim that tithing is not a mandate tread on dangerous ground, and I'm beginning to think that poeple who claim it is are treading on dangerous ground by placing so much emphasis on the importance of paying tithe. If I'm to be a Christian, I'll plead the Blood of Christ alone, you can plead the Blood of Christ conditional upon paying tithe. That is no longer a route that I care to take.
The NTCC has a lot of people brainwashed with this whole obedience thing. Blessings come from doing things because they are in your heart and you want to, not because you have to. Look at Cornelius and look at 2 Cor 9:7.
Jeff
Very good points Jeff.
RB,
I am giving you all the credit in the world, I am assuming that you are not a false teacher even though your in ntcc....that is about as gracious as one can get...now start acting like a real minister and put these crooks behind you.. :)
tb
The fact that Jeff, a lay person (with all due respect), is teaching a Pastor how to interpret the Bible properly is truly a testament to how ignorant the leaders of ntcc are.
People, ntcc is a life destroying cult- take a good look at Kekel when he drives by in his $60,000 car, realize he is paying for his child to go to a non-christian, secular college. take a drive by his house and ask yourself what the property taxes are every year. Ask yourself how much his house is worth.
And most of all- Ask yourself if you will ever have anything but a rental home, a crappy car or if you will ever have health insurance or be able to send your kids to a nice school????
Don't by RB's bull about tithing, the whole concept is ungodly and not taught in the New Testament to the church. Pastors preach tithing because they don't want to trust God....simple as that!
TB
"Very good points Jeff."
"Preach it!"
what a cheezer!
RB,
I would not expect you to try to prove anything to people who hate you or your organization. The fact is, the lack of integrity of the NTCC’s leadership is evident to dedicated men of God that are still in the organization. Prove it to them!
Try the following and see if many of the snarky comments are not silenced:
1. Make all the financial records public including pastors’ salaries, real estate holdings, maintenance, missions, etc. Then the congregation could see how the money was spent. When there was a real financial need above and beyond the norm, it would be easier for a minister to ask for more.
2. Pay the all ministers and leadership in Graham a fixed salary and make it PUBLIC. Then, if the minister wants to spend 30% of his salary to buy a Lexus, it is his business. At least the congregation would know how much the minister was making.
As it stands now, the church members give until it hurts and the ‘Men of God’ divide the money as they see fit. It doesn’t serve as a good testimony to the Gospel when the ‘Men of God’ are driving luxury cars, living in mansions and sending their children to high-end schools. Especially when many in the congregation are living in poverty and constantly being squeezed for more.
Please don’t categorize people who criticize your organization as fault-finding, mudslingers. Your leaders’ policies and actions are to blame for the criticism.
Please tell me: Why doesn’t the NTCC make the financial records public?
RB said:
"Don... I listed 4 things that were listed Prior to the Giving of the Mosaic Law that were instituted by God BEFORE there was ever a written requirment of ANYTHING.
1. Tithe
2. Circumcision
3. Animal Sacrifices.
4. Dietary Restriction"
Don and Ange said:
Of the four things you listed prior to the mosaic law, only three of them were were requirements before the Mosaic law. Which one was not a commandment before the law?
1. Tithe
Being that God does everything decently and in order, and if we use logic or deductive reasoning we find that God required animal sacrifices and circumcision before the law and it was also written in the law. We do not find instances where God commanded anyone to pay tithe before the law. If you are going to say tithe is a necessity and use the argument that it was instituted before the law than lets be fair about it. Was it really instituted before the law? Was it a requirement as circumcision and animal sacrifices were? If it was please direct me to those scriptures as well as the ones in the NT that say tithe is a prerequisite to Christianity.
Many of the feasts and ordinances of the law were not mentioned before the law and are not practiced by Christians today. But, if you are going to use the logic that tithing was instituted before the law and that it was not done away with as a requirement to salvation after the the law was fulfilled, please show us the scriptures. I know it's been hammered into you and me and everyone that ever attended the ntcc. ALL CHRISTIANS PAY TITHE AND GIVE IN OFFERINGS.
In every one of the ntcc churches I attended there was more emphasis on tithe and offerings than there was on just about any other specific topic. I'm not accusing you of this same practice but when people are hounded constantly for money it does more to push them away than to draw them to Christ. It makes it seem like the whole church revolves around money. In my opinion for what it is worth, if tithe was taught as a voluntary gift and not as necessity as in 1 cor 9:7, more people would come to church and if you have more people in church giving cheerfully and not begrudgingly you would have happy people that are just as saved or perhaps more saved than to have a few tithe payers that think they are more saved than all the rest because they are following God's strict commandment: "All Christians pay tithes and give in offerings".
Don and Ange
RB said:
"Don... I listed 4 things that were listed Prior to the Giving of the Mosaic Law that were instituted by God BEFORE there was ever a written requirment of ANYTHING.
1. Tithe
2. Circumcision
3. Animal Sacrifices.
4. Dietary Restriction"
Don and Ange said:
Of the four things you listed prior to the mosaic law, only three of them were were requirements before the Mosaic law. Which one was not a commandment before the law?
1. Tithe
Being that God does everything decently and in order, and if we use logic or deductive reasoning we find that God required animal sacrifices and circumcision before the law and it was also written in the law. We do not find instances where God commanded anyone to pay tithe before the law. If you are going to say tithe is a necessity and use the argument that it was instituted before the law than lets be fair about it. Was it really instituted before the law? Was it a requirement as circumcision and animal sacrifices were? If it was please direct me to those scriptures as well as the ones in the NT that say tithe is a prerequisite to Christianity.
Many of the feasts and ordinances of the law were not mentioned before the law and are not practiced by Christians today. But, if you are going to use the logic that tithing was instituted before the law and that it was not done away with as a requirement to salvation after the the law was fulfilled, please show us the scriptures. I know it's been hammered into you and me and everyone that ever attended the ntcc. ALL CHRISTIANS PAY TITHE AND GIVE IN OFFERINGS.
In every one of the ntcc churches I attended there was more emphasis on tithe and offerings than there was on just about any other specific topic. I'm not accusing you of this same practice but when people are hounded constantly for money it does more to push them away than to draw them to Christ. It makes it seem like the whole church revolves around money. In my opinion for what it is worth, if tithe was taught as a voluntary gift and not as necessity as in 1 cor 9:7, more people would come to church and if you have more people in church giving cheerfully and not begrudgingly you would have happy people that are just as saved or perhaps more saved than to have a few tithe payers that think they are more saved than all the rest because they are following God's strict commandment: "All Christians pay tithes and give in offerings".
Don and Ange
Don said, "... a few tithe payers that think they are more saved than all the rest because they are following God's [rodger davis'] strict commandment: "All Christians pay tithes and give in offerings"...."
Good point. I did translate the word "God" to the ntcc perspective that everything taught by rodger davis is is the infallible Word of God. But here is what the bible records that Jesus taught [Since Jesus IS God]:
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18v(9-14)
Note that the Lord said the Pharisee prayed with himself. Also Jesus said, certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: But what was the end or result of such self-talk, praying with himself?
for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased;
Jesus was teaching His followers to trust in the righteousness of Christ that is provided as a gift by the grace of God to sinners. (Eph. 2v8&9)
Christ was not impressed with the self-righteous spirit of this Pharisee. In fact, Christ spent much effort rebuking the Pharisees, calling them hypocrites who strain at gnats, swallow camels, and trusted in themselves and despised others.
Time to look at ourselves, what we do, why we do it; and ask:
Am I trusting in Christ or self righteousnes?
Do I trust in self that I am righteous and despise others because they don't do / think what I do / think?
When I go home, will I be justified by God? Or will I continue to trust in self-righteousness and despise others?
What really is the point of a huge debate on tithe? That won't save anyone. Only Christ does that.
Angela
If when you were attending you had a real relationship with God and weren't so critical and actually paid your tithe and gave in offering because the bible commands it.
Where in the Bible are we commanded to pay tithe Stephanie? The same Old Testament that says we have robbed God, also points to the virtues of a married woman working. Why does NTCC preach the one but not the other? Malachi chapter 3 (would a man rob God) is the same OT that Proverbs Ch. 31 (the qualities of a virtuous woman who works to provide, and her husband is pleased).
With that being said, the NT under the Apostle Paul asks this question..."Who goeth to war at his own charge?" Yet every year ministers are sent out to start churches on their own dime! Wouldn't that be a violation of God's word on the part of NTCC? What's the purpose in being in an organization to begin with if there is no help provided?
So Stephanie you might want to reconsider tossing around scripture in a vain attempt to "blast" people on here. Because you might come out on the short end of the stick!
I think the NTCC circumvents (goes around) the INTENT of the laws instated to keep honest the non-profit org's that don't pay taxes on their monies taken in. The intent of a non-profit is supposed to benefit the non-profit's charitable cause. RW Davis justifying himself by saying he does not literally OWN the mansion that noone else that has given in the org lives in, and that he doesn't OWN the luxury cars that none of the poor filipino workers drive I consider to be going around the INTENT of the laws.
I as a garage door repair tech with no contractor's license can not make a contract with a customer for more than a thousand dollars- total, after taxes, parts, materials, etc. From what I have seen I know of at least one person (and common sense tells me there are probably a whole lot more) who thinks it's ok to just split up the invoices or have the customer buy the materials themselves and then just charge for the labor, but according to the state that is going around the INTENT, or the SPIRIT of the law- namely, that only licensed contractors should be doing large jobs, because they don't want just anybody building things in their state.
If I am not supposed to go around the INTENT or the SPIRIT of the law concerning material things, how much more should the Christian minister? I am tired of hearing the only thing taught in an ethics class that you don't continue talking to someone in a church you left if you are a minister. How about dealing with some of the more weightier matters, like what I just mentioned? Go ahead and say that they are just man's laws and you as a spiritual church are above them. Jesus said, render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. And if you try to use the second half of the verse to justify you preaching to your congregation that they MUST pay tithe or suffer the judgment as was spoken to me by Rev. Kekel, then I have something more for you about tithe from my fairly thorough research on the subject.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Deu 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
Deu 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
Deu 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
The first part of this comment is from my own personal commentary that I have been writing.
Deu_14:23-29
This passage seems to indicate to me that the Jews were not supposed to give MONEY to the priests for their tithe. The contemporary church belief that tithe should be paid with money seems to me to be a farse. They say that back then they didn't have money. They say today it's different, because we now get money instead of food as an 'increase,' so we should PAY tithe with money to the church for the buildings they have to maintain.
Here in this passage, we see that they DID have money (in fact even Abraham had money to BUY the field for Sara), but they STILL were supposed to bring FOOD to the temple, not MONEY.
Not only that, but they were supposed to eat of that food THEMSELVES. Their family was supposed to eat that food, the ten percent of their increase, every 3 years, in the temple. And God said to share it with the Levite who is within their gates.
Also, many of today's tithe-accepting churches take out the charitable act that was supposed to be associated with tithe: they were supposed to share with the STRANGER, orphans, and widows.
They completely remove major portions of the tithe experience that God wanted instituted in it's practice.
Read this last verse: Deu 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Some of today's contemporary churches have their members pay their tithes in the form of a check that is dropped in an envelope. Many Christian churches do some form of charity work, but some don't.
It's no wonder that people in these churches all over the world pay their tithe faithfully and still are not blessed. They leave out justice and judgment from their tithes.
Talk about circumventing the spirit of the law. This seems to be a consistent theme in NTCC. Do you follow the SPIRIT of tithing in your church, Rev. Briggs? Or just pay your church bills with it? I suppose you think that the charitable deed you perform is that you so graciously teach NTCC doctrines in exchange for their tithes. If you over-spiritualize things to keep your church EXPENSES down, how can you justify literally exacting monies from people? What if we say that it is spiritual tithe that God wants? You won't accept that, will you? It has to be literal cold-hard cash. But when the Bible that you quote says that the tithe should be taken so that the storehouse is FULL, you say, "Oh yes, that means full of spiritual blessings from your spiritual pastor." I would suggest you re-read James. The examples he gives of works constituting faith are not moral, but literal charitable deeds. If you don't have any of them, you don't have faith, in the New Testament.
For my next point, I want to re-iterate this 'circumventing the spirit of the law' theme. If you, Rev. Briggs, a New Testament priest, are going to continue to exact tithes according to the law, which is the only place (as formerly demonstrated by others) that legally mandates such a practice, then should you not follow the SPIRIT of the law? What was the INTENT of exacting tithes, may I ask you to ask yourself? Was it to pay rent on the temple? No. There was no money involved. From my studies, I can deduce three main reasons:
1- to cause the people to remember to be thankful for the Lord's provision, and to eat a meal once a year in the temple of the God who gave them the food to begin with.
2- to provide for the stranger, widow, and the fatherless, and the Levite in the land.
3- to provide for the priests and the high priest out of a tenth of the tenth to the Levites.
This was a food payment made by a religious nation (namely the Jewish nation). All the tribes of this nation worked secular jobs so to speak and shared what they made with the Levites, and the poor. Let's look at the PORTION of the tithe that actually went to the Levites and priests. It was food for them to eat so that they could be nourished and not die since they did not WORK secular jobs, because God said that they should be taken care of by the others because they were not supposed to work like the others. They were supposed to be devoted fully to the work of the Lord.
I would say that they were supposed to be experts on the law. If anyone had a matter against another, and the books of the law needed to be consulted, they didn't have e-Sword and not even Strong's Concordances. They had to be masters of the Word.
You, Sir, if you fulfill the literal part of exacting tithes from your church members and put them in hell for not doing it, ought you not to do the spiritual part of your obligation to that covenant that has no other mandatory detailed model than that of the tribes of Israel to the Levites and priests? Do you work a secular job while exacting tithes from your congregants? If so, what kind of New Testament priest are you then? I say if you want to use an Old Testament commandment in the New Testament AT LEAST do the same thing SPIRITUALLY, and don't make the OLD TESTAMENT saints out-do you spiritually, as the Old Testament was SUPPOSED to be a type of what we would do today.
Rev. Briggs,
You are a great teacher and a terrible student. Your doctrine does not seem to have changed one iota after spending so many hours on this blog. Mr. Collins has given you many common sense as well as good hermeneutical interpretations of the scripture, but you just can't seem to budge. A good interpreter listens to reason and modifies his doctrine if not completely eradicating it if it is found to be false. You find fault with the non-tithe payers because you claim their argument is weak for saying that tithe should not be mandatory, but can you look in the mirror? Your defense is equally if not more weak, and yet you put people in hell for not following you (as you follow jRW Davis). Can you not at least modify your teaching so that it is something more like:
I pay tithe because I believe I have to, but I can not say that you HAVE to if you want to be blessed, because scripture is not clear enough on this topic to say that it is mandatory in the New Testament.
This brings up another point:
I was a minister. I received nothing out of the tithes from the congregants in two churches that I was a 'helper' in. What is this word, 'helper?' Is that some way to make me less than a deacon, so a helper will have no claim to any compensation, because he is just a little 'helper' boy?
You are supposed to be a bishop of your church according to biblical terminology, or an elder. You are following the Old Testament law's model of tithing. Abraham gave it to a pre-appearing of the Christ as we understand it. This is not a model we can duplicate. Jacob just said he would do it if the Lord blessed him. We don't even know if he even brought his tithe to anyone. The Law is the only working model to use for our example if you are going to take tithes from people. You, Sir, are paying tithes to the headquarters out of your pocket if you are a pastor working a job. Did the Levites work a secular job and pay the priests a tenth of their income? No. They were supported by what their brethren brought them. If the brethren forsook paying their tithes, guess what? They suffered. You are supposed to depend on them and they on you, if you have that kind of agreement. It kind of keeps you in check, doesn't it? If you act like a jerk like some of the pastors we have had, then you shouldn't get any food. It keeps you humble. If you are working a job, then it eliminates the whole spirit of the deal, doesn't it? Because you can act like a jerk, and if your church members decide to go elsewhere, you still have money coming in elsewhere.
Also, why are you paying tithe to the headquarters out of your pocket? I can see taking a tenth of the tenth that comes in from the congregation, but YOU are supposed to be a New Testament version of a priest (if you are collecting tithes). The Levites did not pay the priests out of their pocket. The whole thing is wrong in my opinion.
The people should be encouraged to support their pastor, yes, if he is a true shepherd. Whether he chooses to be like Paul and take nothing and support himself or take offerings from the people is between him and God, but it should be offerings, not mandatory payments. The people should love you so much because of who you are, that when they see that they are supposed to support you and you choose to not work, but rely on their freewill offerings, that they would love to give to you. If they don't, I guess you have to work like Paul.
Don, thanks for your point.. but please show me where in scripture animal sacrifice was requried by God prior to the Mosaic Law? There is NO scripture which said it was required. We infur it because it was done. The assumption, on the part of most anyway, is that because God killed the animals to make clothes of their skins that he imparted his plan of "sacrificial anothmenet" to Adam and Eve. They inturn must have told their sons, because they were the first people we actually read of that sacrificed. But we are never told that God said they had to. Only that when Cain offered of the fruit of the ground God told him if he would do good he would be accepted also.
So, if we can use deductive reasoning for one instance we can do it for the other (tithe) and I conclude that Abram was tithing in obedience to God. That the pagan nations that practiced tithing (which ALL OF THEM DID) got their teaching from the same historical source... word of mouth passed down from Adam to the sons of men.
Kris,
When I have reasonable doubg about a subject I ALWAYS tell my church "This is my opinion" when I have biblical authority I do not "water it down". They can choose to not accept it, but I will not put it forth in a weak way.
It's funny, everyone keeps saying my points are weaks takes the points apart. Don made a valiant effort but he neglected soemthing as I mentioned in my last post.
Look on the front page of my blog tomorrow ntccpasadenatx.org/blogs2 and there will be a download for a book from 1911. The funny part is I just found this book last night. While My "doctrinal" of the pre-law tithe, sacrifice, circumcision, dietary restraint argument was conceived long ago. I did not read it, I prayed about it and those points came to me. Then I read a 100 year old writing and lo and behold they argued the same points.. even better I might add. He quotes preachers from as far back as the first century and their doctrines on the tithe.. and did you know Ignatius a student of Polycarp (who was a student of John) taught the tithe. Pretty telling if you ask me.
Rev. Briggs said ...
"Ignatius a student of Polycarp (who was a student of John) taught the tithe. Pretty telling if you ask me."
Kris says...
Taught WHAT about "the tithe?" I don't have any quotes from Ignatius myself. You'll have to furnish something a little less vague. I have some things from the church fathers though if you want to refer to them:
Justin Martyr (c.160) "The wealthy among us help the needy.... As for the persons who are prosperous and are willing, they give what each thinks fit."
Irenaeus (c.180) "Instead of the Law commanding the giving of tithes, He taught us to share all our possessions with the poor."
Irenaeus (c.180) "The class of oblations in general has not been set aside. For there were both oblations there [among the Jews] and there are oblations here [among the Christians]. Sacrifices there were among the [Israelite] people; sacrifices there are, too, in the church. Only the outward form has been changed. For the offering is now made, not by slaves, but by free men.... [The Jews] had indeed the tithes of their goods consecrated to Him. In contrast, those who have received liberty set aside all their possessions for the Lord's purposes, bestowing joyfully and freely not the less valuable portions of their property, since they have the hope of better things."
Tertullian (c. 197) "On the monthly day, if he likes, each puts in a small donation- but only if it is his pleasure and only if he is able. For there is no compulsion; all is voluntary."
These quotes are ante-nicene (before the Church became the Roman Catholic Church). Please furnish a quote from Polycarp's disciple saying that the tithe was mandatory.
You can refer to teachings from a hundred years ago. I'll refer to the ancient Church.
Wait a minute!!! You have it all wrong, Rev. Briggs. You are trying to get too technical here. Ignatius and Polycarp were contemporaries. They were BOTH apostolic fathers. In other words they were both taught by the apostles. Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp who was taught by John. Ignatius was the bishop of Antioch and Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna. I just quoted you Irenaeus' teachings on tithe, and they DO show that he taught SOMETHING about tithe, but they do NOT teach that tithe was mandatory. Nice try, Reverend. I guess it's a good thing I decided to come back here. You want to monitor this blog. Someone needs to monitor YOU!
See folks, this is why NTCCers need to do their own research on the Bible. People like Rev. Briggs just throw statements out there that sound really technical to someone who hasn't studied church history or the Bible for that matter, and if you don't know who in the world people are like Irenaeus and Polycarp and Ignatius, you would probably just think, yep, Pastor Briggs really knows a lot. He has read all the books and knows all about tithe, and it's history. And he said that Polycarp's disciple, Ignatius "taught the tithe" and so I pay my tithe every week to him so he can afford to live a nice life while I am so poor, but at least I get the spiritual benefits of his blessed teaching about the disciple of Polycarp- Ignatius!! Indeed!
Rev. Briggs,
I will try to find a common ground with you. I believe in GIVING to the work of God especially to the poor in the Churches, meeting the needs of genuine Christians. I do not believe in being greedy and hoarding everything to yourself that God blesses you with. On the contrary, I believe that everything we own ought to be available for the needs of brothers and sisters in God's churches. I believe in supporting a minister who accepts offerings. I think Christians should be ready to distribute their wealth to the needy in the Church and support a true bishop of their church. If a church wants a building than they should make some sort of agreement on that, but not because the pastor says "My org wants me to buy a building so you HAVE to pay tithes to pay for it or you will be cursed with a curse!"
That's the difference between the OT and the NT that you just don't seem to get.
Rev Briggs,
You mentioned before saying that it would be pointless to just expect people to give their whole life and everything to God when it is hard enough to get them to pay their tithe.
This is my answer to that. If it was a real Christian Church feeding the strangers, widows, and fatherless and the people could see that their hard-earned dollar was going to charitable causes in the Church and in the community, then I am sure they would have a heart to give a lot more than their 10 per cent. The problem is that the internet has exposed NTCC and it is too obvious to many people where their hard-earned money goes, so the only way you are going to be able to squeeze a good chunk of their change out of them is going to be to mandate it. The people don't see their money going to help people who need it, but many of them DO see that they pay and pay and get poorer and poorer while certain people get to drive nicer and nicer cars and live in nice homes that are not technically in their name in one case (circumventing the spirit of the law), and they don't have any desire to give any more than they have to.
You will have to keep pronouncing them with curses if you want to get at least 10 per cent out of them in a church that doesn't believe in using offerings from the church to help the poor.
RB said,
"Don, thanks for your point.. but please show me where in scripture animal sacrifice was requried by God prior to the Mosaic Law?
Don said:
You said it before I did, so you show me where the scripture is. These are your words, remember?
Don... I listed 4 things that were listed Prior to the Giving of the Mosaic Law that were instituted by God BEFORE there was ever a written requirment of ANYTHING.
1. Tithe
2. Circumcision
3. Animal Sacrifices.
4. Dietary Restriction
What is your point? It sounds like you are so busy trying to prove that tithe in the NT is a mandate that you are forgetting your own arguments. You said that Tithe was instituted as well as Animal sacrifice before the law of Moses.
I'm not trying to put you down or anything, just think that you are trying too hard to prove something that can't be proven. It's a real stretch to believe that tithe is a heaven or hell, get in or get out, kind of topic. If you show me cut and dry where tithe is required I and many others would believe you. The ntcc puts all their chickens in that basket but they never have and never will be able to prove it in the scriptures.
Again, I'm not saying that tithing is wrong, or that it isn't necessary or that it shouldn't be taught. I'm just saying that if you are going to say that a persons Christianity depends on it, please back that up with NT scripture. Jesus and Paul list specific things that will keep people out of heaven and not paying tithe is not on those lists. As Angela pointed out the whole teaching and thrust of Mathew 23 was that people are so caught up in all the ordinances that they miss out on the kingdom of God. In the end, the sinner was more justified than the tithe payer.
Anyway, I hope that things are going well for you and that your Mother In Law is doing alright. In spite of our differences in opinion, I know you are of good character and hope that you make a difference in the lives of all you reach. We don't think that everyone in the ntcc is a devil, just as you probably don't think everyone that has left is a devil. Matt and Deb Reed were really good folks and they still are. They were an inspiration to me while I was in the ntcc just as you are to others.
Take care,
Don and Ange
Don,
Yestarday was a very long day and I was very tired. I think you misunderstood my point.
What I was trying to say was that you had said
Of the four things you listed prior to the mosaic law, only three of them were were requirements before the Mosaic law. Which one was not a commandment before the law?
My response was... where was the command for animal sacrifice ever given prior to the law? As far as the "written" word is concerend it there was no such place. However, you and I both correctly conclude that it was a requirment because we see a few of God's people doing it. My pont being that if we can accept one thing as a fact, and a command, even when we don't have a written verse to point to showing it was a requirement for people of that dispensation. We have to use the same Hermanutics (ain't that impressive - lol) to say that even though we are not told Abram was offering his tithe at the command of God he was, and even though we are not told in scripture that Jacob offered the "tenth" as he promised he did.... or else God would not have chosen either one of them. And he would not have used the story of Abram in Hebrews as an example of faith and obedience.
Is that clearer?
Rev. Briggs,
I hear you and understand where you are coming from. Like I said, I'm not finding fault with you specifically. You are the only Ntcc'r that comes on these blogs to defend your position. We demand accountability and transparency of you and you alone are stepping up to the plate without anonymity. As you know there are many of us that have a different understanding of the word of God than you have or the ntcc for that matter. I don't think that you teach your congregation that they are going to die and go to hell for not paying their tithe. I have actually heard that come across the pulpit before in a way that made me ashamed to be a part of the ntcc.
I hope that you do not handle the responsibilities that God charges you out with in the same way. My personal feeling is that there are many folks in the ntcc with good hearts but they are led to believe that they as an organization are God's last hope on the planet. I had the same attitude and so did many if not all of the Pastor's I served with. It was a military environment, and because we had that background we didn't question things. I question many things now. I know that I can't be a drunkard, adulterer or many other things mentioned in the bible and still make it to heaven. The greatest commandment is to Love the Lord thy God with all thy might and to love thy neighbor as thyself. Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I've seen folks get so caught up in the do's and the don'ts that they forget about love. Is there still a place called hell and is it a narrow path that leads to heaven? Of course. But I believe that we should not make it more difficult than it has to be. God's plan is simple and His word is cut and dry. You don't have to read between the lines and find hidden meanings buried behind other scriptures that require supposition to glean the true meaning.
Again, it is not my intention to keep people from the blessings of God by discouraging tithe. There is middle ground on this issue, and I believe that a person can be too extreme on either side. I am speaking what I believe to be the truth and feel deeply in my heart that this position is right.
I also am trying my best not to put every man or woman in the ntcc in the same bag with the ones that have done me wrong in the past. I am a work in progress, and don't have everything put together but this I believe: God is faithful and real to me now as much or more than ever.
Don and Ange
"I got to say this again...
If something existed before the Law.. it can not be Done away with the law because the Law did not inact it in the first place....
Is that so hard to understand."
The entire law was abolished, no?:
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
It doesn't say that "only those parts of the law that didn't exist prior to its enactment are abolished," but that everything it encompassed was eliminated. E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. You're saying that all of the laws were kept except those which the new testament removed, but that's backward: all of the laws were removed and then certain of them were restated in the New Testament. Anything not specifically imposed is gone, and it is meddling with scripture to try and resurrect the dead letter of the law.
It's also refreshing to hear that you have departed from your pastors position on tithing as a salvation issue. You no doubt remember him teaching us that failure to pay tithe constitutes "God robbing," and that the worst kind of thief is one who steals from God, and that Revelation teaches that all thieves have their place in the lake of fire. Good for you that such latitude is allowed nowadays, because you'd have been run off in five minutes as a "compromiser" for publicly expressing this kind of heresy 20 years ago.
But hey, nothing's changed; Mike says so...
Rev Briggs said:
"We have to use the same Hermanutics (ain't that impressive - lol)"
Kris says ...
It might have been if you had spelled it correctly. It's 'hermeneutics.' Nice try, again, Reverend.
Here's another one:
Rev Briggs said:
"Don... I listed 4 things that were listed Prior to the Giving of the Mosaic Law that were instituted by God BEFORE there was ever a written requirement of ANYTHING.
1. Tithe
2. Circumcision
3. Animal Sacrifices.
4. Dietary Restriction
Rev. Briggs also said,
"Don, thanks for your point.. but please show me where in scripture animal sacrifice was required by God prior to the Mosaic Law? There is NO scripture which said it was required."
Kris says ...
Of the four things listed above, 3 of them have scriptural backing as being MANDATED PRIOR to the law of Moses, Rev. Briggs. Guess which one is not?
CIRCUMCISION:
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
ANIMAL SACRIFICES:
God to Abraham:
Gen 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Gen 15:10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
Gen 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
DIETARY RESTRICTIONS:
God to Adam:
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
God to Noah:
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
I will also add, Gen 22:2 to the SACRIFICES list where God tells Abraham to offer his son as a BURNT OFFERING. This was not an animal sacrifice, but definitely a LIVING sacrifice. Then in v.7 Isaac asks "where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"
So, then, Rev. Briggs, what are you trying to say? You see mandates being issued to do all these things prior to the law, EXCEPT tithe. Your point was that we should keep on doing anything that was commanded prior to the law as long as God never said to STOP doing it AFTER the law. And you said that we infer that God commanded tithe prior to the law on the same basis that we infer that God commanded:
1 Circumcision
2 Animal Sacrifices, and
3 Dietary Restrictions
And you said that the inference comes from the fact that we have recorded evidence of the people doing those things, so God must have mandated them, and we have evidence of people tithing, so we INFER that God must have commanded it. But now I have showed you where it is recorded that GOD required all three of those things prior to the law, but we do not see scripture showing a mandate for tithe prior to the law.
So put that defense in the same pile with the Ignatius one.
Two down. Got any more?
To be continued ...
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