Someone from the NTCC (no doubt a minister) had come on this blog and attempted to put me down because I previously sold new Toyota's for a living. The individual made it clear that (auto sales) is commonly understood by the NTCC to be a dishonorable profession. LD Jones told me right before service one evening that a Christian had no business selling cars because that is what I was doing at the time. Bro. Bentley told me on one occasion that NTCC ministers were not authorized to serve in any sales positions and he made it clear that RWD thought such professions to be dishonorable. RWD took a crack at car salesmen right here in Columbus during a church service and his pastors were up front laughing because they knew that I was a salesman, and I was sitting in the back. Well I'm getting ready to have the last laugh but unfortunately what I'm getting ready to write is actually not funny at all. Lo and behold, just today, I saw an individual right here in Columbus, Georgia who I'd previously known from the NTCC. We went to church together. He was driving an older model Toyota Camry. Guess who sold it to him? The local NTCC pastor. Of course that is actually no big deal, but it is either wrong to sell cars or it's not. Not only that, the guy told me about how much he is spending on the car and he is paying his pastor approximately two times what the car is actually worth. That's right, the brother got anything but a good deal and I know because I previously sold cars for a living. Apparently the brother had to take out some kind of loan which didn't help matters. The pastor had purchased the car and he decided not to keep it according to the brother.
Let's assume the pastor paid two or three times what the car is actually worth when he bought it. If that was the case should the brother pay at least twice what the car is worth just so the pastor could get his money back? The brother that I'm talking about has virtually NO experience buying cars anyway and I know that for a fact. The dude just got his license. Let's assume the pastor paid half or one third what the brother is paying for the car. That would mean the brother is being knocked in the head. That's what it is called when a dealer makes a whole bunch of gross profit on a vehicle sale. Which ever the case the brother is not getting a good deal at all but to the contrary. Used cars have a lot of mark up above and beyond what the car is actually worth and this is especially the case on less expensive cars between $1000 and $5000. For example it is a bad deal if you pay $7000 for a car that books for $3500. For the record these figures are not what the brother paid but I just used them as examples. I stayed away from used cars for that very reason. We regularly showed folks what the book value was on vehicles that they were trading. The brother should have been able to get the car for not one dime more than half of what he said he is paying for it and actually less than half if you really look at the book value which is what I just looked at this evening. If there is any doubt in anyones mind that I know what I'm talking about, I looked in the brothers window and quite clearly saw the odometer which allowed me to pull up the book value this evening. In my book the brother got took. How did you like that rhyme?
I bought a car for less than $1000 and I sold it to a brother for "EXACTLY WHAT I PAID FOR IT". I got a great deal on it and I passed the savings to the brother. He is still driving it and has been for about 2 years. It was also an older Toyota Camry so it should last for about 10 more years at least if he takes care of it. However in this case the pastor either got a sorry deal and passed his loss on to the brother or he is simply knocking the brother in the head!!!! "ONE OR THE OTHER".
So LDJ and RWD, I don't want to hear your garbage about car salesmen because the buys that I gave my customers were a whole lot better than the one that "YOUR" pastor gave one of his church members. You guys are sorry. You NTCC ministers need to stay out of the car selling business and leave it to trained, conscientious professionals like me who happen to know and care enough to truly take care of people and especially those who are of the household of faith.
Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Did you forget to teach that one in your so called Bible college?
Jeff
P.S. I could give numerical specifics concerning what the brother told me he is paying, and my findings about the book value, but that is the guys private business so you'll just have to take my word for it. This whole practice of pastors selling their church members cars has stink written all over it anyway. It's just another example of the Shepard fleecing the sheep. Buy an old car and sell it to one of your church members. This isn't the first time I've heard of NTCC pastors selling their church members old used cars. LDJ and RWD just needed to keep their mouth shut about this auto sales issue and it wouldn't be an issue. Just another example of an NTCC flip flop.
29 comments:
I remember the time in conference when dennis got raked over the coals because he wanted to sell cellular phones to his people, I think he was still a pastor somewhere. rwd started on telling the pastors about how that they were in the business of saving souls not on being salesmen. He said to never sell anything to any church members because then if something happens to the thing you sold the member, they'll blame you , and then you can't pastor them anymore, because they'll be mad at you for their predicament.
I don't know how this pastor did something that he is been taught not to do, but like pdq said previously, the "policies" have changed.
blovd
Selling "tommy cars" was common practice in NTCC. I guess it is called being a blessin'....because how dare you go to a reputable dealership... that gives you a warranty..and buy a new car!
folks in ntcc like to buy vechile's off each other. Because there credit is SHOT! So paying cash is all they can do!
Rev. Davis always sells his car to a brother when he gets another one. He changes cars about once a year.
wow....wish I could get a new car every year...no.. actually... I don't. I am sick of the car I have but it isn't that old yet and still runs. I've not had any major problems with it yet, so... until the cost of keeping it running is more then it would be to buy a new car then I will replace it.
Some people treat cars like shoes. Soon as they are bored with it they throw it out and get a new one. Personally I will run a car to the ground before I go buy a new one. I am not into buying used (never bought a used car that didn't have issues) and if I buy new I save and walk off the lot owning it. Because I don't want to get screwed with the intrest rate that will leave me paying eight to ten thousand more for the car then the sticker price. And yes it might take me 5 to 10 years to save to do that but it is worth it in the end to have the 100,000 mile 5 year warrenty. You don't get that with used cars.
OK here is the deal:
Yet another example of low down, SORRY NTCC preachers taking advantage of naive church members.
NTCC Preacher: "Brother, you need to get you a car to pick people up for church!" Leaders have cars and you do not!!"
Cheese eating Brother: "YES SIR!!"
NTCC Preacher: "Hey brother, I have a car, it has a few miles on it, it runs, you take care of it and GAWD will take care of you!! I will sell it to you for 2000K".
Cheese eating Brother: "Sir, my credit is bad"
NTCC Preacher: "That's OK brother, Gawd pulled you out of that Pimp lifestyle. Tell you what, since your in the Army, just pay me 300 every payday until it is paid off. I won't even pay you interest!"
Cheese eating Brother: "Thank you Sir! Praise God!!!!"
NTCC Preacher; (Thinking: Another Sucker!! Ha Ha Ha!!!)
Bro Johnson
Bro J. said...
Cheese eating Brother: "Thank you Sir! Praise God!!!!"
Jeff said...
Ha, ha, ha. LOL. That is about the size of it. Yes sir this and thank you Sir that. The NTCC is full of Cheese eating brothers and at least half of them are ministers. Yes pastor Davis, no pastor Davis, Yes pastor Davis, I won't think for myself pastor Davis Sir.
Yes Bro Kekel, I'll have my wife clean your house Rev. Kekel. Can I shine your shoes Sir?
A bunch of Cheese eating brothers.
I will buy your car Sir so I can travel all over the city all day every Sunday and pick folks up so they don't have to pay for a taxi and as a result they will have more money to put in the offering. God forbid that we offend the free loading visitor who's been getting free rides for six months now. Don't worry about it Sir, it's only money and I can't take it to heaven, isn't that right pastor sir? That's right brother, just buy my car so I can tell everybody on Sunday from the pulpit how great you are because you pick folks up for church.
Then you will want to pick up even more folks after I stroke your ego. Here is the plan. I will get more offering money and you will spend more of your money driving all over the city to pick up folks so that I can get more offering money and with a little luck we will get them to start paying tithe. You will definitely need to pick up those tithe paying folks. Make sure you keep up the maintenance on your vehicle. All leaders pay tithes and give in the offering and keep up the maintenance on their vehicle so they can pick up more folks for church who can pay tithes and give in the offering.
Hey everyone, as crazy as this all may sound that is about the size of it in the NTCC. I don't even want to think of all the miles I've put on my vehicles to pick up folks that NTCC pastors just wound up running off anyway. If I didn't do it I was dirt but when I did, it was considered to be just my duty.
Jeff
...btw Brother, if someone gives you gas money....don't forget to tithe off of it !
new thread idea's for you Jeff.
The raising of the hands as soon as rw or someone says's Lets Have Church! Folks start babbling,supposedly praying and speaking in tongue's. How much of that is genuine and how much is faking it?
Hitler walks in,the right arm salute. RW gets up to start a service,the two arm salute. And make sure those hands are not up halfway,straight up in the air!
Another Thread suggestion;I watched so many ladies in ntcc get so full of pride and vanity when it came to there long hair. If a stranger complimented there hair. You could see there chest puff up with PRIDE. And they were sure to repeat that they got complimented to other sister's. Like look,my hair is long and beautiful. Yours is long and stragly looking!
Those women are soo full of pride when it comes to there hair. And how BUSY there daily schedule's. I could never figuire out what they did to be SOO Busy! They lived in tiny apartments,drove a small car,and had NO daytime social life. Unless given permission by Mike K. to go soul-winning or go grocery shopping with another sister was the highlight of there week!
Anyways,things I have been pondering.
CM
They are a bunch of hypocrites. When you go out soulwinning/recruiting you don't give the people the low down about your church. They will ask, "is it okay if I wear jeans, or this, or that?" and we used to say "sure!" knowing that something would be said about it.
That is just one sample. Think about all the questions you had to tap dance around to get them to church the first couple of times. When you go soulwinning you ARE selling your church. You learn techniques, phrases, and worse, you learn to be insincer. Because if you were totaly honest with yourself, there have been times EVERYONE has had doubts about something preaced, something said, or how you are treated.
Does anyone remember the the book The Greatest Salesman In the World that ntcc was reading at one time?
the point is, soulwinners/pastors use half truths to get people to their churches. how is that different than their description of a used car salesman?
fiona
ps, CM very few of the women with very long hair actually have beautiful healthy hair. most of us had long thin scraggly dry hair.
NTCC Overseas Missions alert:
NTCC has sent C. J. Annis to be the preacher in Okinawa, Japan.
Bro Johnson
Bro Jeff,
I noticed something interesting on the NTCC website. I discovered an old buddy of mine who is a preacher at Fort Detrick, MD.
His name is Brother Brown. Now, Rev F. H. Brown.
We go wayyyy back, like over 10 years, over. I called him but he was not around, just to say Hi.
Anyway, what I noticed was, when you click on their Org and click on the TAB where it says, "Find Us", in Houston, the page is still under construction.
Bro Brown has got a high speed google Map in which you can SEE his church by satellite. This can mean only one thing: Kekel gives each individual preacher the right to tailor make their org. website.
But most preachers look like they do not know how to type text or URL code which explains why some NTCC sites are still "UNDER CONSTRUCTION"
Maybe I will snoop around Facebook and see what I can find!!!
Interesting!
Bro Johnson
Does anyone know why the 2009 Fall Conference is being held Regionally?
Sept 14 - 17 PA Kinson (Chicago, Ill)
Sept 28 - Oct 1 DL Tieman (Leesville, LA)
Oct 12 - Oct 15 TE Wright (Phoenix, AZ)
Nov 16 - 19, Graham, WA: Preacher: To be announced
Nov 2-5 Phillipines (Asian Conference): Preacher: To be announced
Bro Johnson
I would love to hear more about the "busy lives" of the woman. I think Fiona mentinoed it but honestly they clame to be "so busy" but honest to GAWD what do they do all day? They're not working a regular day job. And you can only clean the house/floors/bathroom so many times a day....
CM: Thanks for the thread ideas. I will implement some of your ideas when I get a chance, and after this tread runs it's course. The raise your hands thread should be interesting because I have some thoughts on that subject as well. Thanks for all the help and all your input here.
Your perspective on the NTCC is always eye opening; (at least to folks who prefer not to walk around blind). Unfortunately you and I both know that the NTCC is quite good a keeping people in the dark, especially if they don't want to see the light.
Take care CM,
Jeff
In response to ANON at September 23, 2009 10:47 PM
well here is what life was like for me while in NTCC.
Sunday morning church, guilt tripped into soul winning sunday afternoon. Sunday night church...Mondays were usually free... if I am remembering right.. Tuesday was womens bible study, then soul winning. and then they had soul winning again in the evening. wednesdays was church, then thursdays if you wanted you could go out to graham. which I did quiet a few times. Then friday.. something was going on friday I think it was SOULWINNING.. and saturday..soulwinning and saturday night service.. Rinse and repeat...
I know there is more but lets just put it this way. I was spending more time soul winning and sitting in "church" services then I was with my own family. Kids were always in the nursery. Never saw me except when we were at home long enough to eat fast food and sleep. Never had time to clean house or cook a decent meal because I was always being guilt tripped into being at the stinking church. Some of the stuff I didn't mind doing but most of it I was only doing because SOMEONE did a real good job of making me feel like I was a pile of dog crap stuck on the bottom of someone's shoe. Don't even get me started on how many years it took me to get over that and I am still dealing with some issues DUE to my NTCC experience.
I don't know about what the women do out in graham or any other churches.. but thats how it was at the woodbrook (hoodbrook) church. The one that was right across the freeway from tillicum (tillislum).
Thanks Jeff,
The woman's perspective can be a eye opener. And shocking for someone that knows nothing about ntcc. Those that come on here before attending one of there service's. A reason I come on here,in hope's to prevent people from even walking through those doors.
I have been sharing alot with my family. Now that I no longer feel that control to not tell them what we lived! I shock my Mom all the time!! She was right ALL ALONG. I was in a cult. So folks if your parents tell you,YOUR IN A CULT! They are telling you the TRUTH!
Angie,
When I was in WA. We had the weekly pretend prayer meeting. Another excuse for Tanya to show off her huge dimaond. She is so full of VAIN! She only likes to hold her hands up,to show that UGLE rock off! Sorry,not jealous folks. I really do think it is UGLE!
Class every free night. Not home in bed until Midnight. After picking up my child from the babysitters. Thursday the Bible study. And we could only go,if we had vistors.
Saturday,around Ten AM get to the BS and go soulwinning. Just about all day. Get home and my DH went to student service. I am sure I was a slacker. I did not get a babysitter for that. And I eventually stopped going to the women's fake prayer meeting. And I did stopped trying to squeeze in daytime soulwinning with another sister. I felt Stupid WALKING up to people while they shopped to BUG them! I hated door knocking,Again. Bothering people in there Home's!
When rw would give out his daily guilt trip on using the internet. I would cringe. Thinking my DH would fall for his guilt trip and get rid of our computer. I think there guilt trips began to slide off me. I began to ignore them! I blocked out alot of what was said in those last few years I was in! I was a ZOMBIE! jump when folks jumped. Laugh at those LAME,RUDE joke's to fit in.
So folks,if you find yourself slipping away and not trying to attend as much. Not paying attention in service. The fog is starting to lift!
CM
typically, the laziest people in life tend to claim they are the busiest. this is to give an appearance of so called "work ethic" when in reality they are excuse makers with no follow thru or they are using "busy" as a way of escaping their christian responsibility to help a brother in need. Its so much easier to put your tithe check into the plate than it is to help out a brother of low esteem or mow an elderly widows lawn- these people are flat our THIEVES!
sincerely,
T
CM,
I forgot about the prayer meetings. Those are one thing I could never go to when I wanted to because they didn't have child care and they didn't allow you to bring your kids into the church for prayer.
T,
Well I'm really busy and if you don't believe me come shadow me for a week. You'll wish you had your life back. I work full time. I go to school full time. I am very involved in my church(childrens ministry, praise team, choir, and sound system tech when not doing anything else.. yes sound system tech, ooh and media tech..and I enjoy it, greeter, usher, etc. I help where needed on top of the jobs I normally do). Plus I am a full time MOM, and a full time wife. And I take care of my sick father in the process of doing everything else. And yet I am happier now then I was when I was attending NTCC. And I actually think I am busier now then I was then. And I still find time to get online.. which right now I should be going to put gas in the car before the kids get home from school. Because tonight is Back to school night (I hate their school) and I have to go. And I don't want to. And I have a TON of stuff to do. I guess it is a good thing I work the graveyard shift. On my Days off I get to stay up all night doing the things that most mothers have to do while their kids are awake. So in actual reality..It's easier to clean house, etc. while the rest of the people in it are sleeping. They are not under your feet and in your way and making more messes for you to clean up.
And please as a side request.. keep my Dad in prayer he is going in for surgery on the 29th they are going to take a vein out of his leg and put it around a collapsed stint near his heart. They are considering it heart surgery since it is so close to his heart. I would greatly appreciate all prayers that everything would turn out great.
My awesome boss gave me the last 2 days of our work week off to take care of my Dad... I work 4-10 hour graveyard shifts. No 5 day work week for me.
Hope you all are having a wonderful time in your busy or not so busy lives.
Yes I can type fast. This took me all of 5 minutes to type out...now they just need to add spell check. I'm too lazy to re read.. so apolojizing now for any grammar or spelling errors.. I just don't care that much about it right now to look!
Oh, yes, the soul winning. Funny how no-one from the board or their families went soulwinning. They made us go out in whatever the weather but not them. They said they invited people as they were out doing their own thing. If it was good enough for us it should have been good enough for our leaders. Oh, that's right. LEADERS. They lead us by orders but not actions.
The ol
Do as I say, not do as I do routine!
Angie,
T was talking about the fakeness of there busy live's while in ntcc. Women have No live's. They are only busy because ntcc schedule's there entire live's. So they have no time to think. If they did and put two and two together. They would realize there in a cult. So they can't have that!
We did not choose to be on the go almost every day and night. It was a GUILT trip!
Everything you do now,is your own Personal choice. So if you work the graveyard shift. You choice it. If you do your housework at different time's,. You choice it!
I love cleaning now. Because it is just for my family. Not to live up to there stupid expectations and suprise inspections!
My kids now play sports and do other extra acitivites. It is on our own schedule. We do attend Church,once a week. To get spiritual growth,you do not need to be in Church EVERYTIME the doors open. Ntcc is famous saying that! GUILT TRIP! Why wouldn't you want to be in Church?
CM
Since NTCC has severed all ties with me, I thought it would be a good idea to take the "Super Apostle Detector" test again.
http://www.cultwatch.com/SuperApostleDetector.html?x=82&y=44
I got quite a different result from the last time I took it (when I was in good standing). Here are my results:
"Off the scale! Super Apostle mind control methods detected. You are in a Super Apostle church. Strongly recommend you read all Super Apostle articles on this site. Leaving is your best option."
What a difference a few years make.
Shocking,
pdq
opps.. my bad..
well.... I will say this.. people learned real fast not to show up unannounced at my home. I was so busy I didn't have time to clean and I usually put off cleaning so I could spend time with my family. Unless I knew someone was coming over. Then I would clean. I wasn't trashy messy. Just didn't have a spotless house. It's not a freakin model home for a housing development your home should look like it is lived in for pete's sake!
PDQ I answered the questions as if I was still in NTCC and it gave me almost the same result when I answered them since I have been out.....I think the thing is rigged. The church I go to now is in no way controlling at all. I wouldn't still be there if that was the case. so. who ever came up with the test needs to tweek it a bit I think. There is no way a church that is not controlling in any way can be considered a cult. The test is rigged.
Angie,
I also answered the questions based upon my recent past experiences with NTCC.
The first time I took the test, about five years ago, I answered maybe four of the many questions in a way which reflected poorly on NTCC.
It is my belief that the first taking of the test will be the most honest one for a person. When people see their results they will invariably retake it and 'fudge' their answers, thus yielding 'better' results. This is what I did about five years ago.
This time I answered all but about five of the questions in a way which reflected poorly on NTCC.
Why the change in results? My recollections are still the same, but I no longer deny, ignore, or justify what I experienced (or lie about it). This time I didn't take the test in a way that would yield positive results for NTCC (nor 'try' to yield negative results). Stated differently, I didn't cheat this time, I answered the questions honestly.
In my opinion, the questions are not narrowing enough, they leave the participant too much wiggle room. They should have quantified many/all of the questions. For example, the money questions. They could have asked..."How often is money brought up in services." With multiple choices...(a) multiple times each service (b) each service (c) every other service (d) once a month (e) seldom (f) never. Multiple choice/essay questions will always be more accurate/revealing, but this is still dependent on a person answering truthfully. It is very easy to answer these questions (or any opinion questions) in the 'right' way.
A person in the habit of lying to themselves will get no benefit from any type of test, or logical argument.
My view of the test is it is general in nature, designed to start those involved in cults thinking objectively (if they are through, or close to being through, with lying to themselves).
Yes, the "Leaving is your best option" advise to me requires a drastic change, but we must keep in mind those against cults are just a passionate as those involved in them, and accounts for any bias in the test, as well as any lying by those who take it. But, the ultimate decision is still the individuals.
Yes, I agree, a survey/test can be designed to yield pre-determined results. It's done with some polls all the time.
My point is my perception of the same personal experiences and observations is different. And this test yielded quantifiable results. And gave me some personal insight into my thinking then, and my thinking now...which I though would be interesting to share as an intellectual exercise.
I may need some clarification...did you take the test for NTCC, or your current church?
pdq
the first time I took the test I took it based on what I would have answered while in NTCC (please note that I never did get fully in, if you ask my previous pastor in NTCC he will tell you I was a handful). And I don't remember the exact wording but it basically said your in a cult get out. Yes I recognized something wasn't right with NTCC when I was in it just took me a while to leave because I wanted to make sure I wasn't making things up in my head. Which I was not.
Then I answered the questions based on where I am in life right now and my answers were completely different from the first time I did the test and it still gave me basically the same stupid answer without the screaming your in a cult get out at the end of the message. So.. I dunno. The person that made the test..are they still going to church? Do they still believe in God?
Because the answers seem basically the same the wording is just switched around to make it sound different. The same meaning is still there.
Not all churches are cults and not all people who call themselves Christians are faking. But I know once a person has been hurt they stop trusting everyone and everything. But if you let that happen then the devil won. I know a lot of people who no longer attend church because of NTCC but claim they still love God, pray, and read their Bibles, but they don't go to church... but it does say in the bible as christians we are to gather with others who are also Christians. so now people are picking and choosing from the Bible what they will and will not believe. Yes I know a lot of the Original bible has been lost in translation. And a lot of the meanings have been twisted. But if you actually sit down and read the bible with and open heart and ask God to reveal the truth to you before you begin to read any portion of it. you will be amazed at what you find. A lot of stuff I thought was a certain way has been revealed to me to not mean at all what was taught to me growing up or while in NTCC. A lot of verses that were aimed at certain towns and classes of people are just examples and people take to be literal meanings that we HAVE to follow. I would love to share some stuff I have been reading recently in this class I am taking now. Right now we are studying the Sabbath day. And the lamb sacrifice. If you actually study it. You will find out that Christ died at the exact hour that a lamb was normally killed for the sin sacrifice. SO if Christ died in place of that lame and he died for all sins then why do people still uphold the sabbath laws? Christ died so we no longer had to do that. And yet people still hold themselves to old laws that Christ made obsolete.
Anyways it might be my night off from work. And I could go on...as others besides me like to do. But I am going to stop.
I hope you all have a wonderful weekend.
My kids still have one more day of school and I have laundry to catch up on.
God bless,
Angie
Angie,
I re-took the test for my current church (good idea Angie) and here is the result:
"Scan clean. No Super Apostle influences detected. Recommend you read some of the Super Apostle articles on this site so you can protect your friends and family."
pdq
Hey pdq and hello Angie. I though I would say hi to both of you because what I am posting pertains to what you both have been talking about. "THE TEST"
I just took it. There were occasions during the test where I couldn't rate the NTCC unfavorably however the majority of the time the answer obviously attributed to super cult rating which was indeed the outcome. I figured out quite rapidly where the test was taking me but the questions were good questions all the same.
The test really is an eye opener. We were really part of a messed up group. It makes me kind sick but what are you going to do. All I can say is it's shocking.
Take care folks. pdq, I hope everything is going fine.
Jeff
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