I'm off for the weekend and I'm taking it easy. Has anyone noticed that the NTCC church locator is down on the NTCCs official website? It must not be too important to the NTCC leadership for people to be able to find an NTCC church. Their church locator has been down for a while now. The NTCC certainly has enough money to keep a website up and running if they want to. If the NTCC leadership wants something to work it will. Update: The locator is back up. I guess they wanted it to work. Well good, I can get in touch with NTCC pastors again when I want to and I can find out who's left and who's still around. On to another subject. Is there anyone out there who is into firearms? I am. My wife and I both have concealed carry licenses. We are living in a unlawful world. People are running around trying to hold folks up all the time. It's good to be prepared to protect yourself or your family in the event that your life is threatened.
I've already taken my boy to the indoor range. For a little fellow he shoots pretty good. My dad was a WWII veteran and he taught me to shoot at a fairly young age. Probably about the same age as my son when I taught him to shoot. We can shoot right on my property because I'm far enough out in the country and there aren't many houses around here. I was out there shooting one day when the pest control guy came. He didn't mind. He may have watched for a little bit. Anyway it's a fun hobby and a great means of self defense against seriously violent criminals. Home invasions are on the increase and you don't want to fall victim to someone who wants to rape and plunder while placing your life in jeopardy. It's something to keep in mind you NTCCers. I know for certain that one of your overseers carries a gun in his RV for protection. Nothing wrong with that. It's a smart more. So don't go getting so spiritual on me by saying, "I don't need a gun, God is my protection". You may want to tell your overseers that and see what kind of response you get. That's ok; if someone attacks you and your family all you have to do is hold your fingers up together in the sign of a cross. That will certainly run off a villain. How in the world did I get on this subject?
Jeff
354 comments:
1 – 200 of 354 Newer› Newest»rodger w. davis has lots of guns. he often jokes and says he doesn't own any guns because he gave them all to his 2nd wife, verna.
But be sure, rodger had lots of guns on display in the Lodge at the New Testament Christian Church National Campground in Santa Fe, Missouri.
But once davis' grandson,grant kekel was too old to hide in the motor homes during conference, davis decided to make a rule to allow children on the campground if the children were a certain age (grant's age) or older.
Once davis made that new rule, the ntcc had to adjust its insurance coverage at the camp so that the insurance would have to pay if the unthinkable happened and ntcc got sued (if a child got hurt on the camp.)
So when the insurance company sent an agent to inspect the camp prior to adjusting the policy, davis told russ mears to hide the guns that davis had on display in the Lodge. Don't believe davis when he boasts of his great Christian integrity. davis doesn't really have any Christian or integrity. But davis does have guns.
continued below
Don and Ange
What's wrong with guns? Nothing. Love them. They are a useful tool. But davis don't get "your worker" to lie to your church insurance agent. If you're going to be a lying weasel, at least be man enough to do the lying yourself!
Any speculation on why davis would want someone else to lie for him? davis would let russ take the fall if something unthinkable happened and the ntcc got sued and the insurance company refused to pay out when it realized there were guns in the Lodge....
Oh the tangled webs we weave when we say we are a Christian 'pastor' charged with the care of men's souls; yet this hireling davis shows a persistent pattern of causing others to sin for davis' own gratification and "private benefit".... Not Christ-like at all. In fact, davis actions are anti-Christ-- the exact opposite of what Christ did.
Christ was innocent and paid for us the guilty.
davis is guilty and wants you the innocent to pay for his sin. anti-Christ.
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Don and Ange
WHY DO THE OLD DIE YOUNG!!!!!
Off Subject:
The NTCC church in Charleston, SC
is SHUT DOWN!!!
The so called work in Seoul, Korea is NO MORE!!!
The Church Locator is back online, and with it, some changes.
Check it out!!
Bro Johnson
Bro J said...
The NTCC church in Charleston, SC
is SHUT DOWN!!! The so called work in Seoul, Korea is NO MORE!!!
Jeff said...
Good. That's less "preachers" running around who abuse people and take advantage of them.
Jeff
Yes, I carry and HK .40 beautiful Gun. My wife has a Sig Saur .380 (it's a mini 1911)
Wow Pastor Briggs. I was looking at the HK handguns. The are very nice and they are not cheap in quality or cost. I have a SIG P229R Nitron 40 Cal with SIG Lite night sights and a Streamlight rail light. That is in case someone breaks into my house at night so I can blind them. So don't come sneaking around here Pastor Briggs, ha, ha. Just kidding. Your welcome here.
A Glock 23 with truglo tritium fiber optic night sights. My wife has a Ruger LCP with a Crimson Trace laser site. My Son has a Ruger Charger with a 25 round banana clip and a 2.5-7x Weaver Scope which sits on a Bipod. Very accurate indeed. The list goes on but I'll only mention one more.
A Remington Model 700 varmint with the x-mark pro trigger and a bull barrel mounted with a Nikon 4-14x 40mm with the BDC reticle. That whole rig sits on a nice Bipod. This gun is the real deal. The bullet drop compensator reticle is sighted to 400 yards. I don't play. Life is real.
I also only carry the best ammo. For target shooting I use ball but not for concealed carry or home self defence purposes. I test it all to make sure it feeds properly. I'm real perticular about the grain weight and brand. All ammo is not created equal. You can carry the nicest gun in the world but without the right ammo you could be making big mistake. Life or death. I know of a dude who took almost 20 rounds of ball and lived through it. I don't think he'd have faired so well with the type of ammo that an experianced gun handler would know to carry.
At one point an HK was the next gun I had planned to buy. I would still like to own one some day. My SIG is every bit as nice. I'm just a collector.
Jeff
Did you see this new comment on the other thread?
Faactnet.org is still up. The link goes to a page full of links to discussions about ntcc. Once you open it you can bookmark or save it as a favorite for easy access to it in the future.
Or you can type Factnet.org into your URL / address line and click enter. Then search for
New Testament Christian Church ntcc
That will get you the same results.
I am a no longer in NTCC... I carry a gun on duty and off duty! I love guns! I am still in the ministry and law enforcement. Life is great! I carry a glock 17 on duty, off duty I carry the glock 17 and sometimes a Bersa .380 thunder. - J. Crum
I wouldn't mind having that Bersa 380. How does it fire? Does it feed well and is the recoil light? What kind of ammo does it like? Have you shot Remington golden saber through it? What about Speer gold dot? Corbon DPX?
I like my wifes Ruger LCP. Of course it's a 380. Corbon/Glazer power ball feeds real well. So does the Remington 88gr JHP. The Corbon is a more preferable load for self defense. I've read good things about the Bersa. What do you think?
Jeff
I can only carry the law enforcement grade hollow points. Luger rounds. As for non law enforcement rounds for the Bersa .380, I found reg luger rounds work very well, seems like remington rounds do not fair well.
As for shooting the Bersa .380, it is lighter than most .380. It's easy to shoot, but it is hard to field strip.
I still like the Glock, only saftey on this weapon is not to pull the trigger! I like Glocks.
I like my Glock for concealed carry because it's light and the mags hold 13 rounds of .40 ammo and it's a compact. What I don't like about the Glock and I never did is the trigger. I had a Glock 17 which I sold and the trigger was the same as the Clock 23. It's not terrible by any means but it's not a smooth pull like my SIG SAUER. The SIG is heavier which is why I carry the Glock. The SIG has less recoil for a few reasons. Weight and spring. Recoil is not bad on either but the SIG has less. The SIG is a fine firearm. For that matter so is the Glock but not like the SIG.
Thanks for the info JC. I'll probably pick up a Bersa Thunder. I like those small 380s. Like I need another gun? Realistically I need that like I need another hole in the head.
Jeff
Since Factnet shut down, I just wandered over to this site and it’s nice to see people are still spreading the good news about NTCC. I also like this thread and will add my two cents about NTCC keeping people as paupers. While stationed in San Antonio, TX we had a building fund to get the parking lot paved and black topped. The pastor at the time was Rev Rodriguez. He called a company to come out and give us an estimate; it would cost $16K to get it done. So we started the building fund. He got up Sunday morning to proclaim the project and how much it would cost. We gave and gave and gave and finally met our goal. With in a few months of meeting our goal God (????) called Rev Rodriguez back to Panama. The new Pastor Rev Espinoza continued the building fund, but there was never another word about when the project would get started. This was back in 2001, so I moved on and came back to San Antonio about 4 years later (2005) and there were still no improvements to the parking lot. As far as I know Rev Espinoza is still the pastor and I bet 2011 there is still no parking lot. I know for a fact the $16K was raised and more so where did the money go????? Offerings at every service 4 nights a week, Sunday night budget offering, world missions, building fund pledges and I forgot to add camp ground pledges. I’m sure we were giving well over 2K a month to the church. SMH
See that is what I've been talking about. Once they get these funds raised the NTCC moves the pastor and then that is the last you hear of anything. The NTCC is notorious for doing that stuff. Escrow account gone! Building funds gone! Pledges gone! Why should I doubt this persons testimony? It's the same as so many of the rest that I've heard.
Do people really think that testimonies like this are false? That parking lot should have been done back in 2001. I don't care if it's done now. Why wait so long? So you can talk the 16k and invest it. So many people tell the same stories of what happens to money that was given. The NTCC is full of a bunch of crooks who are just after your money. That is why the pastor should be in control of the money and at least one other Elder in the church but not Graham Washington.
The Rodriguez's are just as guilty. They should have held the NTCCs feet to the fire on that one and carried out what they promised and because they didn't they lied to their people. All liars will have there part in the lake of fire. When you tell your people you are raising money for something and it doesn't happen you've lied. 16K down the tube. The person who wrote this never got to use the parking lot even if it did ever get paved!!!! That is why you don't give a dime to the NTCC. Not in tithe, not in offerings, not in any form or for any reason. What a bunch of crooks.
Jeff
Haha,
Here's a good rant by Jeff back in ole' 2009
I gotta say Jeff, you are more consistent in your preaching than most NTCC preachers.
http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=13006
Go ahead Jeff's Rent!!! That's what I'm talking about. I remember when that all took place. Those folks are such hypocrites. Just click on the hyperlink, "Jeff's Rant" and you'll pull up the article. I guess I've been at this for a while now.
I don't know who posted this link "Jeff's Rant" but it wasn't me. Of course I don't mind a bit. Keep at it.
Take care Jeff's Rant.
Jeff
That would be a good Question Anon. if you wanted to ask it to the pastor or even the organization (don't know if you will though) but I can tell you because I pastored San Antonio and was replaced by Rev. Rodriquez that paving that parking lot was and is a no go. The black top is not the problem.. the lot is.
I tried to look into the same thing and went through getting bids, even had Rev. Johnson look it all over and the grade of the lot makes it almost impossible the water would run back to the church. To pave it we would have to have a major revision with the city planners getting involved because special drainage would have to be installed in the street. I boycotted at that point.
While I have no idea what happened and or why I can say that when and if they went through the process to start actually doing the job they found this informaiton out. Though I am sure it was given to Rev. Rod at the time, but remember I had 1 week with him to transition and there is a lot of information someoen has to get and absorb in a church transition. Call Washington and ask, or better yet call Rev. Espinosa and ask.
Jeff, I love my H&K but it origianlly was my wife's purse pistol. It was just too heavy for her to lug around. Though it is sleak and compact. At that time I had a CZ-79 which was fantastic, cheap, accurate. I got rid of it and another CZ that I had and bought her the sig. It is small, but versitle. I plan to make some Cocobolo grips for it (I do that kind of stuff).
I also have a Low SN Browning Shotgun that was my great, grandfathers and bought from Browning himself in Ogden Utah around 1920. It is a FN version so it is very collectible and valueable to boot. It's a 16 gauge and fires like a champ.
My son has a Savage single shot 22/20 gauge (the gun has two barrels that change the caliber/gauge).
My Dauther has a Marlin 22 that was my great uncles. Has the original peep sight on it and shoots straight and true. She got a bullseye the first time she fired it.
I also had a S&W Crimson trace 1911 40 but I gave it to a dear friend.
Hey Pastor Briggs. I'll tell you this. If they are not going to pave the lot they need to do their best to refund everyone who ever donated a dime to the cause. If what you are saying is true, (which I have no reason to doubt) and a parking lot isn't going to be poured, and people were told that they were donating money to a parking lot, than money should be refunded and there should be records of all the money that was given.
That would be the right thing to do Pastor Briggs. I know it's not your responsibility but I'm just sharing my view with the hopes that you see what I'm saying. Sir if I give you money for that HK .40 that you are going to sell me, and you decide not to give me the gun, I expect my money back. Anything else would be criminal.
Jeff
All right Pastor Briggs. You are causing me to sin because I'm coveting these guns that your talking about. A CZ-79? Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors gun. Those CZs shoot real good, especially that 75b model.
I was hoping some folks would talk about guns on this thread but not like this. I didn't expect someone to bring up HKs and CZs. You've taken it to another level now.
How about the new Public Defender Polymer? It's a 410/45 long colt. There is a Winchester 410 PDX1 load that contains three flattened disks and twelve pellets of plated BB-sized shot! It's a real stopper. The new polymer model has adjustable rear sights and a fiber optic front sight. It's a bad gun.
Jeff
Hey where are all the gun lovers? Forget about the NTCC for a bit. Lets talk guns. I need to get my daily firearm fix. Some dudes talk sports, others politics, I talk guns and computers. I like sports also. Politics have got old. Both parties are crooked, just like the NTCC leadership, OOPS? I wasn't supposed to talk NTCC. Alright where are the gun owners at? I know there are some ladies out there who have a gun.
I saw a lady the other day walk right into a Toyota dealership with a long barrel revolver strapped right to her hip in a holster. That's what I'm talking about. Someone will think twice before they try to mess with her. By the way, Toyota makes a way better automobile than Cadillac. So does Honda. In fact practically every make is better than Cadillac. They have too many reliability issues.
Jeff
Speaking of guns, I miss that old M-60 when I was in the Army.
That old girl would Rock and Roll and there's just nothing like the feel, smell, and sound of 7.62 x 51 ball and tracer going downrange at 550 rounds per minute.
Aww Jeff, Why did you have to go and start talking about guns?
Caesar
Ceasar,
Since you are pulling out the heavy artillery I have to say that I favor the M2 Browning .50 cal Machine Gun.
We would go to the range with this baby, and she could do some damage way down range. With a maximum range of 7740 yards (not feet) and a maximum effective range well over a mile, you could light up the sky with tracer rounds and start some pretty cool brush fires in the process of eliminating targets. While cyclic rate of fire is up to 550 rounds per minute 40 to 50 rounds per minute in 7 round bursts was more realistic.
We used to go to the range with 3 extra barrels because the barrels would start to glow after a couple minutes of rapid fire which we were not supposed to engage in but couldn't resist. On the older models which we fired, you had to adjust the head-space and timing each time you changed a barrel so that the re-coiling parts were in the right position for firing.
I remember according to the rules of war set forth by politicians and the Geneva convention that you were only supposed to fire at equipment not people. The type of equipment I would be shooting at is LBE's and Kevlars or whatever headgear the enemy was wearing. If I seen a bunch of foreign troops parachuting down to kill me, that rule would have to go out the window.
Don and Ange
Jeff said,
"By the way, Toyota makes a way better automobile than Cadillac."
Don and Ange said,
Yeah, and they do it for a lot cheaper. I'm all for unions but how is that working for us? A bunch of slackers wanting more raises and benefits while the Japanese can make a better car for less money that's more efficient, less costly and safer for the most part although Toyota has had some recent issues. They'll go on strike for more money and better benefits which everybody wants, but if you can't sell any cars without bailing out a company by stealing our tax dollars to do it, what's the point? Our country is being run the same way that GM is being run. It's a travesty.
I forgot, what was the topic? Oh yeah, guns. The only way they are going to get mine is if they pry it out of my cold, dead fingers. I miss Charlton Heston.
Don and Ange
Caesar said...
Aww Jeff, Why did you have to go and start talking about guns?
Jeff said...
Because I like em and apparently you know a thing or two about guns also. What's up Bro, how've you been? Hey, I appreciate your presents around this blog. You make some very thought provoking statements. We need more of it. We are making progress, I can promise you that. People are getting wise to the NTCCs major faults and that is an understatement.
We'll accomplish something here if we just keep at it. We appreciate your contributions Caesar.
Jeff
Don and Ange said...
Since you are pulling out the heavy artillery I have to say that I favor the M2 Browning .50 cal Machine Gun.
Jeff said...
Hooah!!!! That 50 call will rock. I like the sound that it makes. Kind of like a real fast jack hammer. DDDDDDDDD.
Cool.
Jeff
We have a firearms group call the "Nightscope Nightshifters".(name slightly changed to protect the guilty)
Talk about taking our daily life frustration out on some targets! We have everything from muskets to AK-47s and some inbetween I can't mention here! I enjoy going to the range, but I don't own a weapon yet. How do you folks keep your weapons secure from your children?
Management is not thrilled about our firearms group, so I can't sign my name.
No... the Vulcan.. that's AWESOME!
And the Glock 19
The best way to keep you guns secure is in a gun safe. Of course if all your weapons are in the safe all the time you can't very well use them to protect yourself against an armed intruder. There is a balance. Teaching your family gun safety is a good place to start and my little boy understands.
He definitely has respect for guns.
Jeff
Jeff said:
We'll accomplish something here if we just keep at it. We appreciate your contributions Caesar.
Caesar says:
Thanks Jeff. I appreciate this blog because all these stories just kind of validate what I have thought for years.
I don't have any personal axe to grind with any NTCC preacher or person. I just don't accept some of the doctrine that they put forth in the doctrinal statement with the scriptures they use as support.
RB said I was taking heed to doctrines of devils etc, etc, but I base what I believe using the written Word of God, not some man's opinion or psychological technique for persuasion.
Jesus didn't teach psychological techniques. Jesus went around DOING good to all who came to Him and He HEALED all who came to Him.
I have seen a lot of "bad" done by NTCC preachers and I have seen a lot of people hurt, not healed by NTCC preachers. In an earlier post, I used the verse:
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
I don't claim to know what's in a man's heart, but I believe I have seen this scripture fulfilled in many situations.
As I said before, Every man is right in his own eyes, so that's the way I see it, and I might be wrong in some cases.
Thanks for the kind words Jeff,
And Yea, I like guns...lol I love the smell, sound, and feel of any gun I shoot.
Caesar
Wow--went to that FACTnet link and saw this alternate take on the Gaylords:
http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=2439
Sick of the Myths
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1
My memories of "Mom and Pop" Gaylord
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctyankee
I would like to invite anybody who was touched by the lives of these two "saints" to tell some of their experiences. I miss them greatly and thank God that I had the opportunity to come into contact with them.
Response:
Where to start? Let us start back in 1933. That is when my father, Robert, was born to Eileen Pratt. She told her only son later in life that she tried to abort him. At the age of 2, my father's parents divorced. Eileen didn't really want him around so dad was bounced around from relative to relative. Eileen married a man named Vern. This was so time between 1938-42.
Around the age of 7, my father was sent to live at a dreadful boarding school called Briscoe (may be a thread on FACTnet, haven't checked) run by the Irish "Christian" Brothers. He was there for several years with occasional visits to Eileen and Vern.
I am not sure when she and Vern divorced. She married for a third time around the time dad was 15 to a Master Sergeant in the USAF, named William K. Gaylord.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctyankee
... To me they epitomized what it means to be true Christians. They truely loved God, lived a holy life, enjoyed life and showed the love of God by reaching out to the servicemen with the Gospel. In all my time I was around them they never abused their authority, and always showed concern for us and the love of Christ. They had a servant's heart.
Response:
But not towards their own families.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctyankee
For those of you who didn't know them, Pop Gaylord got saved while a Master Sergeant in the Air Force. He and his wife devoted the rest of their lives to reaching the GI's with the Gospel, and started what are known as Christian Servicemen's Homes. I got saved in one of these homes, where GI's were allowed to live in a Christian atmosphere. It was a very positive experience in my Christian walk...
Response:
I am truly happy that they were a positive influence in your life. Yes, they did many good things, and did spread the Christian message around. Also, I don't think people should be judged by youthful choices alone. HOWEVER, I do believe actions speak louder than words. I CRINGE every time I read how wonderful Mom and Pop were. Even their nicknames evoke a sense of affection that was grossly absent in my father's life and my own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctyankee
I have alot of fond memories (and some funny ones) of both of them. I'll never forget one time when they were over our house for fellowship, when my son was just a toddler. They had him on their lap, and they were just like two grandparents with their grandson.
Response:
When I read this line I wanted to SCREAM! I was outraged because that NEVER happened to me or my brother. WE were her only grandchildren and we were not treated with warm grand-parental doting or affection. Sir, I don't mean to take anything away from your positive experiences with them. I glad they gave that to you. It just ****es me off that we weren't given the same type of caring.
I think that will do for now. I have more to write, about NTCC, the Gaylords, but for now I will post this and go to bed.
At Junction City, Kansas the opposite happened.
They showed us a new parkling lot, completely paved over with fresh paint.
Then an Overseer came riding up with that big oversized camper that has legs that pull out for support.
The leg supports damaged the newly paved asphalt.
I don't think the Rev at the time complained about it. When the Overseer left the damage to the parking lot was still there.
At least the Overseers will know where to park the next time they vist Fort Riley, KS!!
Bro Johnson
Vic said,
"Wow--went to that FACTnet link and saw this alternate take on the Gaylords:"
Don and Ange said,
I also have many great memories of Mom and Pop Gaylord. Not sure about what they did before the blood-line and really don't care. What comes to mind is the "and such were some of you" scripture in 1 Corinthians.
I really think that if we wanted to find fault with their ministry, the only mistake that I can say Mom and Pop made was getting involved with davis and the ntcc. This was a huge blunder and one that I think Pop would take back if he could.
As ctyankee shared, we also have only very fond memories of Mom and Pop Gaylord. If what was shared about them in the past is a true account then I'd have to say that they were bad parents and grandparents during that time. Hopefully they attempted to reconcile at some point but its impossible to get both sides of the story at this point.
Whatever the case may be, They were like a mother and father to me. They treated me with lots of respect and were very encouraging to me in all things. Pop Gaylord would do things that I've never seen any minister in the ntcc do. One time he gave me money when I was broke without me asking for a dime and other times he would ask if I needed any. This he did because he seen the books and knew how much I made and what I was giving to the church as an E4 in the Army. Mom and Pop weren't money grubbers like many in the ntcc. They were not concerned about the money but they did show lots of concern for the souls of GI's. That was their burden and it was an honor knowing them and being around them at such a time.
Don and Ange
Amen I agree Don!
Thanks Sgt. Johnson
Hey, I loved Mom & Pop too, and they never did me anything but good. However, it's easy to think we know someone when we really don't. Their grandchildren have every right to be bitter if the treatment described is accurate, and if we are honest, we have to regard them as at least enablers of Davis' shenanigans. More than anyone, they are responsible for delivering multitudes of unsuspecting GIs into his clutches. Now they are dead and we want to deify them, but they had flaws just like everyone else (well, except maybe for that guy who can't remember the last time he sinned...). I'm glad for the good they did, but it was certainly a mixed bag.
"I'm glad for the good they did, but it was certainly a mixed bag." and "Their grandchildren have every right to be bitter if the treatment described is accurate,"--Vic
Agreed!
"and if we are honest, we have to regard them as at least enablers of Davis' shenanigans. More than anyone, they are responsible for delivering multitudes of unsuspecting GIs into his clutches."--Vic
This is why I had to leave ntcc. How can we in good conscience allow one more person to be entangled in the ntcc? How can we be partakers in other men's sins, once we become aware of their sinful ways?
It's one thing to be a babe in Christ, and unskillful in the Word and to go along in good faith with the status quo... But eventually we have to hear His voice and respond correctly to the Holy Ghost's prodding that something just isn't right with ntcc.
It took us many years. But we did not have the benefit of open communication that is now available. We continue to blog in hope that the scales will fall off the eyes of some still in ntcc; so they will see how far from Christ the ntcc leadership is.
Don and Ange
P.S. Welcome back, Vic!
"P.S. Welcome back, Vic!"
Thanks. Life's been pretty hectic with all the blessings we've been dealing with. We just closed on 40 more acres of land a few weeks ago (which we paid for WITH OUR OWN MONEY). Like the title of the thread says, life is good!
Hey Vic, It's good to hear that you are doing great. Wow, Bro!!! 40 acres? That is real nice. I live out in the country but I certainly don't have 40 acres. Sounds to me like you are doing very good. We both know that wouldn't be happening if you were still in the NTCC. The NTCC leadership would be mad that you bought land in the first place and then they would try to get you to sell it and move back to Graham.
They are such crooks.
Jeff
Unfortunately NTCC people have a history of shunning their very own biological family members. Basically to NTCCers, you are either in the NTCC or you are the devil. Very little middle ground there. I knew the Gaylords also. Sure they seemed very nice but during that time, in my eyes, RWD walked on water and parted the red sea. Now I see him as nothing more than a crook. Literately and I'm not exaggerating one bit. I see RWD as nothing more than a narcissistic control monger crook.
Not to disrespect the dead but the reality is, behind closed NTCC doors, I don't know what the Gaylords were all about. There is one thing that I've learned about all NTCC people. Be very slow and reluctant to trust any of them and more specifically be careful not to trust their motives.
Don't get me wrong. That are good NTCC people. There are bad NTCC people and a lot more than I would have ever imagined.
Jeff
Rev. Gaylord sold me my first Bible at Fort Gordon in 1983 when he was travelling through. That was the first time I ever met him. He came by Fort Hood many times. He always seemed like someone who really loved people and I could be real with. --- MB
I just read on Factnet what this gentleman wrote about Mom and Pop Gaylord. I wish he would elaborate on what his experiences were with them. This is one of the dangers of exhibiting a "squeaky clean image" and giving the impression or at least implying that things (even your past) are better than they really are by simply not talking about them. I knew very little about Mom and Pop's past. I guess perhaps it was my fault by not asking questions. While I've always known both of them to never lie, and be upfront, I'm not sure any of my questions about their past would have been exactly welcome by either one of them.
If what is said about them is true, This is just one more example of me learning more about 1 of my Pastors long after I got out of NTCC than while I was in. I got into a huge argument with Mike Kekel about this very thing.
Hello. I'm new to this site, but not new to the ways of ntcc. I was "in" for nearly 17 years, graduated seminary, pastored churches, etc. I've been out for a while now & life has never been better! One thing I really enjoy doing is reading the NIV simply because we were not allowed to do so! Why weren't we allowed? Is it because other versions offer so much clarity to truth...because they expose ntcc leaders for whom they really are...greedy, cultish leaders. I think this scripture decribes them well:
2Peter 18,19: "For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”
Keep up the great work Jeff!
"family man"
Thanks Bro. We could certainly use your help around here. The more people who post the better. I'm sure you experienced a lot having been a pastor and all. We'd love to hear some of what you went through while you were with the NTCC.
Jeff
Hey Mark. How have you been and how's the wife? I'll give you a call when I get a chance. I found out some things about one of my pastors which were real eye openers. You know none of this would bother us if it weren't for these pastors always trying to create as you put it, "a squeaky clean image". I mean we felt like those guys were perfect because that is basically what they taught. They were "Gods Men" they couldn't do any wrong.
If they would have just said, "do your best to serve God but don't expect to be perfect" I wouldn't have so much heart burn with them. That is not the way those creeps were at all. They picked your life apart just for us to find out that many of them were and are some of the biggest quote "sinners" that we ever knew in the NTCC. They made it impossible to serve God just to find out that we were doing better at it than they were. We just didn't have a pulpit to blast them every time they messed up.
Well I do now and it's called "New Testament Christian Church, The Real Story". This is my pulpit and I have services 7 days a week.
NTCC pastors kept everything a secret. Our stuff on the other hand was out in the open because most of us were stupid enough to tell them our business. It will be very unlikely that I ever tell another pastor my business and I don't care where he is from. The only thing a pastor will know about me is that I walked out the door the same way I came in. No address, no phone number, no work info, NOTHING. He will be lucky to know my last name and I might give him a nick name instead of my first.
Boy you let these guys in your business and you just opened yourself up for some trouble. I kid you not. If a pastor says, "So when are we going to see you back for church"? I'll reply, "When I walk back through that door". If he asks, "So what kind of work do you do"? I'll reply, "The kind I get paid for".
If you give some of these preachers an inch they'll take a mile. They'll want to know when your coming, when your going, where you are going, when you'll be back, how much money you make, how many cars you drive, who's baby sitting your kids, do you have any kids by another marriage, do you get child support, what do you do for entertainment, who your friends are and on and on and on. It is absolutely absurd. I can't believe that I allowed someone to control my life as much as some of these NTCC pastors did. I feel like I got robbed and actually I did.
If you pledge money to the NTCC you'd be better off flushing your money down the toilet. God does not expect you to be stupid and blind concerning where your money goes. You pledge your money to some oversees mission that either never happens (like a case where an NTCC pastor told me of and get this, $20,000 which was pledged that didn't get used for what it was taken up for because this particular mission didn't even happen and the pastor who took up all this money found out after the fact and he was mad and he left the NTCC) or half the money that was pledged never even goes to the missionary. You pledged your money to a parking lot that doesn't get paved in any kind of reasonable time-frame. You pledge your money to a church sign that you find out later could have been paid for by the organization 50 million times over by a bunch of fat escrow accounts which don't remain in the church they were taken up for, but they want your $150 so they can keep theirs.
You shouldn't be paying for pews, church signs, interior lighting, carpet or any of that stuff. If the NTCC INC puts money into finishing or furnishing a building, they will get their money back 50 or 100 times over as long as the pastor doesn't run off all the church members and if he does, that is not my problem. That is the NTCC's problem.
Jeff
Jeff,
I would like to share a Victory story with you and the gang.
Back in 2004, I was involved with NTCC hook, line, and sinker.
I took my wife out to eat at a local eatery and noticed a glossy flyer for the Royal Gorge in Canon City, Colorado.
For those of you that do not know, it is the highest suspension bridge in the world, it is just plain cool (Airborne, Bro Jeff!). You can walk across it, good, clean family fun.
I always wanted to visit. I did not due to my involvement with NTCC. NTCC took away the FUN FAMILY THINGS in life. I really had no life, just NTCC.
Well, I'm back in the area, buddy, you don't get too many second chances in life. Today was the day, I took my wife and my smallest son and we WENT THERE!!!
I repaid a small debt of my soul's desire today by going. Man it was awesome!! I told my wife, NTCC would not let me go the last time I was in the area, but today I have the Victory! Free from the tyranny of NTCC!
I felt liberated. And, a little cold feet as I am afraid of heights. You guys that go Airborne, you deserve a medal! I just could not do it, sorry. Parental instincts kick in.
But NTCC will NEVER deprive me of my bucket list ever, ever again.
Three Cheers to Success!
Bro Johnson
All,
Does serving GOD in NTCC mean you neglect your responsibilites and don't pay your bills?
I'm not making this up. Obviously Kekel posted this comment with his approval (he won't post mine anymore, gee I wonder why?)
Anyway, looks like the NTCC is not going to help the brother, which, in a wierd sense, is best for the brother:
"I can remember awhile back when I had received a call from a bill collector just before going to sleep. The call came during the day as I was working at night and I think I had work later that night. Needless to say it wasn't the best way to end the day. After the call I prayed to God and simply placed my concerns about the collection call and my situation in His hands and let Him know that I didn't have time to worry about this and that I was going to bed.
Luck, Buddy, you NEED to worry about it! Obviously your stint with NTCC is not working out. They have sucked you dry and now you cannot pay your bill(s)? Is this victorious Christian living?
I do not like paying bills and taxes as much as the next guy, but I pay them, and your in a delusional fantasy world with NTCC if you think serving NTCC (Because your NOT serviing God here) is going to get you out of a financial jam.
The brother goes on,
"After I prayed I went to bed and put in God's hands. Thank God for grace and rest."
God bless,
Bro. La Turco
Psss! Guess what? Who wants to bet that bill was STILL unpaid for the following morning? I bet a rabid fox from Montana that his situation did not get any better.
Bro Jeff, yea, your right the cheese up to Kekel control everybody love me response blogs makes me want to go out and drink (And I Don't drink!!)
Bro Johnson
Bro Jeff,
Looks like the Mega Church, in Graham, WA has money to burn.
It is amazing what you find on the Internet:
In Memphis, TN back in 2009 NTCC purchases a church from the Methodists for ((((DRUMROLL)))
$600,000.
Read the caption below, if the sittin on the fence blog reader is not convinced that NTCC is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, and ya'll know there is money to be made in Real Estate, read below:
4975 Quince Road: New Testament Christian Churches of America Inc. from Underwood Methodist Church, $600,000
Go ahead, cut and paste this and pull it up yourself.
This is the real deal folks, like Jeff has stated time and time again, it is all about the money, it always was, always has been and always will be.
When you start playing around with 600Gs like your rolling dice you got money to burn - YOUR MONEY!!!
Bro Johnson
<<>>
Bro Jeff,
The NTCC Tentacles of Mike Kekel reach out to Saint Louis, MO.
Somehow, Mike Kekel and his wife Tanya found money to pay
$1,176.52 for PROPERTY TAXES on a HOUSE that he nor Tanya live at.
The area that the house is in has homes going betwenn $200,000 - $300,000 and up and appears to be in a good area.
Could this house be an escape plan if NTCC goes belly up? You have to wonder!
More info on the house:
612 Robert Avenue
St. Louis-Patch, MO 63111 Share See Photos
Neighborhood: Patch
Owner: Michael C Kekel, Tanya M Kekel (as of August 2008)
About 612 Robert Avenue
County/Region: St. Louis City MO / City of St. Louis
Year built: 1953 | Builder: N/A
Square footage: 1,141 sq. ft. (living)
Baths: 2.0 | Stories: 1
Census tract: 1015/patch
Property taxes: $1,176.52 (2009) #1 in St. Louis-Patch
Bro. Johnson, Ask and ye shall receive =D
Here's the link for the video by ntcc truth and measinner:
ntcc Graham compound
Bruce Smith was correct when he reported that locals call it
"The Church Behind The Fence!"
Jeff.. can a NTCC fan ask that you please take the actual address off fo that post. There is sufficient information without the person showing the full address... while most have no intention of harming someone you never know and I just think no one wants that on their conscience.
Sgt Johnson... let me explain to you that the church in Memphis was a relocated congregation of people. The building was purchased from insurance money that was recieved after the church in New Orleans was destroyed.
RB said...
Sgt Johnson... let me explain to you that the church in Memphis was a relocated congregation of people. The building was purchased from insurance money that was received after the church in New Orleans was destroyed.
Jeff said...
I understand that but the NTCC has a history of purchasing properties that don't even remotely correspond with the size of the congregation. Case in point: Oberhauser comes back from conference with grand stories of RWD just blindly agreeing to purchase a church building near Columbus GA like God had given him some kind of Revelation. Well it simply didn't make sense to me. We only had about 10 people in the church at the time maybe less. So I called the owner of the building just to learn that the owner was only asking $150.000 for a 3000sq ft building on 1 acre right across from a park in a decent part of town. The owner was willing to take less which no doubt the NTCC offered. Point being is that it became clear that this move wasn't about anything other than an "INVESTMENT". Oberhauser and Cantrell did almost all the work on the building, (with the help of some brothers) and fixed the building up real nice. Then once all the work is almost done, the NTCC leadership brings Hunt down to Columbus and they send Oberahauser back to Graham. How convenient. If the Columbus church folded today, the NTCC just doubled or tripled their money.
Oberhauser thought the purchase of the building was some kind of miracle from God when it clearly was no more than an educated real estate investment which could get renovated by insiders (Oberhauser-Cantrel) who were here locally. Now they are both back at Graham. Go figure.
You best believe that there was more to the Memphis purchase. If the NTCC spent $600.000 the property was probably worth twice that. This is what I keep trying to tell people. The NTCC is a real estate company. It's not about holiness because if it was there wouldn't be so much abuse and double standards that RWD simply turns a blind eye to. I know what I'm talking about. Not only that did the NTCC have to buy a $600.000 building for a bunch of displaced people and probably a small group that was already in Memphis? Basically what you have is a bunch of ministers who are always looking to get into a building and the NTCC picks and chooses the best real estate deals that come their way via a army of (inside building hunters). GREAT BUISNESS but not about souls; it's about real estate. It may be about souls with some of the pastors but with the NTCC leadership, it's about accumulating massive amounts of real estate while fixing the buildings up using as many NTCC personnel as possible.
This ain't just some conspiricy theory. There are too many factors which point directly to what I'm saying. If it smells like a horse, runs like a horse, acts like a horse and looks like a horse, then it's a horse. I have better things to do with my life than spend half of it doing no more than helping the NTCC leadership accumlate more real estate just for them to blast me into leaving when they decided they don't need me around anymore.
Jeff
RB asked...
Jeff.. can a NTCC fan ask that you please take the actual address off of that post?
Jeff said...
Sir, I'm not sure if it is that big of an issue being that Mike and Tanya don't even live there. Everyone knows where Mike and Tanya lives anyway. I can tell you this. If I thought that any info on this blog put someones personal well being or safety in jeopardy I would absolutely delete it off of this blog. Respectfully, I don't think that is the case here for a variety of reasons not the least of which being that Mike and Tanya don't even live there.
The biggest risk that the NTCC brings to it's leadership is that they act like peoples lives don't matter at all. Someone invests 20 years or more to the NTCC just for the NTCC leadership to run them off. They do that to the wrong person who can't live with the fact they he or she has wasted 1/3rd or a half of their life and there is no telling what could happen. The NTCC needs to stop playing around with peoples lives like their lives mean nothing. I spent enough time in the NTCC. I can't even imagine how it must feel to spend 25-30 years of your life just for RWD to point his finger in your face while acting like he'd just as soon have you gone. That would be an unbelievably huge slap in the face. Some folks can't live with that kind of stuff. RWD doesn't care about anyone. He has no compassion and he doesn't truly care about anyone other than a few close family members and himself.
Jeff
Sgt Johnson... let me explain to you that the church in Memphis was a relocated congregation of people. The building was purchased from insurance money that was recieved after the church in New Orleans was destroyed.
Mr. Briggs, fair enough. I can understand your point of view. Hopefully the folks are doing well over there in Memphis.
Bro Johnson
Jeff said...
Oberhauser thought the purchase of the building was some kind of miracle from God when it clearly was no more than an educated real estate investment which could get renovated by insiders (Oberhauser-Cantrell) who were here locally. Now they are both back at Graham. Go figure.
Jeff said...
The NTCC leadership need guys like Oberhauser and Cantrell around Graham because they have building skills. Cantrell is probably on some kind of building crew. The NTCC is just using all their people. They brought Cantrell back to Graham under the pretense that he needed more training and or he hadn't handled his business affairs accordingly. Cantrell just came into a recession that messed him up in Atlanta GA just like another 10 million people in the United States. Go back to Graham? Are you kidding me? That is like going back to your mommy when you are almost 60 years old. The NTCC needs to keep the little chicks around the bird nest because they haven't learned to fly yet, so bring them back to Graham for retraining. More like re(cult)ivating.
Let me tell you what the real deal is. Bring them back to Graham to keep the Graham church community at a numbers level to keep enough workers there and enough money coming in. That is exactly what it is and anyone who can't see that is so blind that it's unbelievable.
What a master scam. RWD is an absolute genius. If I had no conscience (like RWD) I'd start a bunch of churches around military installations, and I'd be a millionaire in about ten years. Get the best orators and the best tradesman just like RWD did and build an empire with a never ending cash flow from a bunch of suckers.
Jeff
2Peter 18,19:
Wow Scott I was with NTCC for 12 years and in the ministry. God has used that very same scripture to comfort me. I like what is has to say in the KJV too. God Bless you and keep you.
a peaceful♥
Other people do live there though.. and my concern is that some wack job would decide to get "revenge" on the property owned by the great white devil.. yahah yahada it's just a precaution
I have found in my experience with ntcc that they can be easily suspicious over nothing.
Call it what you will Anon.. but I have been attacked physically in my church and as such know that some people are not balanced. You might be... that's great... but it only takes one person and I for one do not want to be a party to something like that. The information is just as pertinent and believe able if its but in
XXX Roberts avenue
as it is with the exact numbers.
If there is no danger in the world why do some of us own and carry guns? PROTECTION
seems like momma used to say it's better safe then sorry...
Any way I said my two cents...
"612 Robert Avenue
St. Louis-Patch, MO 63111"
That's the first building I lived in when I got to St. Louis in 1980. Looks like I may have helped pay for it. Nice little racket they had going with those "dorms."
There is a lot of us that helped pay for $1000's and $1000's of dollars of other people's real estate in the ntcc.
You didn't complain about the cheap rent did you? Vic? Because the cost of a "dorm" stay is far cheaper then an apartment or house... I sure didn't I loved me some dorm property... $125 a week for a 3 bedroom house and a 4 car garage was a pretty sweet deal if I do say so myself.. and I am saying so myself.....
I'd rather the money go to a brother/friend then someone else. Should we all live in a commune?
And Anon... had you not rented from these "NTCC" People you would have paid for thousands and thousands of dollars of others peoples realestate... so what's your point? Are we supposed to eb Socalists?
RB said...
and as such know that some people are not balanced.
Jeff said...
Ain't that the truth. Pastor Briggs is right about some folks not being balanced. The NTCC seems to attract quite a few of them. Some NTCC folks that I've known weren't playing with a full deck. They were short a few marbles. They had a few loose screws. They weren't the sharpest tacks in the box. Yeah, yeah, I'm coming across as insensitive but the truth is, the NTCC recruits people who aren't very stable mentally and psychologically and the NTCC does it because these guys are easy pray. It's a fact. I lived in one home who had four dudes in it who were definitely out there and I mean out there. Ft. Hood Tx 1985-1986. I won't get into names so if you want to try and figure it out that is up to you.
The NTCC recruits these guys who are off and they know they are off but they keep them around as long as they pay tithe. All four guys I just referenced have left the NTCC but three of them stuck around for a long time and three of them went to the seminary. These guys were pretty good guys but something was missing up stairs. One of the guys was a real good guy but I'm telling you, something was missing up stairs.
Why would the NTCC try to make ministers out of them? To make merchandise out of these guys and it's just that simple. You don't take someone who ain't playing with a full deck and make a minister out of him!!!! Would you want him to be your child's school teacher? How about your surgeon? How about your baby sitter? Oh but you want to meke him a minister? Your soul is supposed to be the most important thing to you and you'd entrust it to someone who is missing a few marbles? Next time you need open heart surgery why don't you call up one of these dudes to make it happen. Ha, ha. That would be crazy. The NTCC will make him your pastor though.
I'm telling it like it is. The NTCC leadership doesn't care who you are as long as you meet one condition. "PAY TITHE". That is the absolute truth with very, very few exceptions. These guys I'm talking about were not playing with full deck, I'm telling you. One of them was way off and three of the others were pretty far out there also and actually there was a fifth. He was just a little out there. He wasn't too bad.
Oh yeah, the NTCC has good reason to worry about someone going off the deep end because they recruit a bunch of folks who aren't that stable from the start.
What, about 1.5 years ago someone walked into the Graham church with a sword? That's ok NTCC, just keep playing around with people. No wonder RWD lives within a compound behind all kinds of fences. Cult tactics 101.
Jeff
"You didn't complain about the cheap rent did you? Vic? Because the cost of a "dorm" stay is far cheaper then an apartment or house.."
Actually, Robert, John Whitekettle, Chris Kinson, and I decided to move out of that dorm to an apartment of our own, where we ended up saving a considerable amount of money. We thought we were being wise and demonstrating leadership, but your pastor and his henchmen reacted predictably to this threat against their nascent real estate empire. Chris was dispatched to Washington, ruining our budget, and a rule was instituted forbidding anyone else from moving in to make up the shortfall. We ended up having to let them convert our place into a dorm.
Stop trying to recast the greedy actions of these exploiters as some kind of benevolence. The chief goal likely had more to do with personal enrichment than providing us with cheap living, and becoming our landlord was an excellent way to consolidate their already excessive control over us.
Wake up.
I think I am going to stick up for NTCC on this one because I was specifically asked about my mental condition before I started Bible school by Rev. Kekel. He knew I had a few issues when I first started coming to church. I joyfully told him God had healed me and what was he supposed to say to me that well we will see or no your not he just took my word for it.
RB said...
$125 a week for a 3 bedroom house and a 4 car garage was a pretty sweet deal if I do say so myself.. and I am saying so myself.....
I'd rather the money go to a brother/friend then someone else. Should we all live in a commune?
Jeff said...
I read some stories about some of the NTCC rental properties. Toilets that didn't work, leaking roofs, people in the house getting sick because there was mold in the walls. Then the NTCC leadership wanted to dog the tenants when they expressed having a problem with it.
It's one thing Pastor Briggs wanting to see your money go towards a brother but it's another thing when your brother is making merchandise of you. And you asked if we should all live in a commune? That is whats happening in Graham Washington with one capitalist at the top who accepts his rent from people who only pay cash. The NTCC has placed people in positions where they have almost no other way but to rent from the leadership and that is the scam.
Bring someone all the way up to Graham and then when struggles become apparent, act like you are doing them a favor when you rent them one of "YOUR" houses. That is what RWD has done!!!! Bought a bunch of rental properties and then created an environment where people have hardly any other choice but to take advantage of them. It's call "SUPPLY AND DEMAND". RWD has figured out a way to create the supply and the demand and then make you feel like he is doing you a favor in the process. Come on Pastor Briggs. Like you tell me, you are smarter than that. I just took one right out of your play book Sir. You've used that one on me before. I wouldn't find myself in the possition of having to "RENT" a dump if the NTCC didn't have people running around trying to recruit ussuspecting people to go attend their non accredited seminary.
I've had the dubious distinction of buying and selling 3 seperate houses in 8 years in order to get away from a really bad NTCC situation that I found myself a part of. The NTCC will put you through some changes Pastor Briggs. The first stability that I've had in the last decade exists because I left the NTCC about three years ago. I've lived now in the same house now for the last 4 years, I have the best job, my kids have it the best in school and life is just altogether better since I left the NTCC. If you offered me $500,000 right now to faithfully go back to the NTCC, I wouldn't do it. In fact no amout of money would be worth it if it meant that I had no other choise but to stay with the NTCC. What good is money if you are misserable for the rest of your life. It ain't personal, that's just the way I feel.
Jeff
"$125 a week for a 3 bedroom house and a 4 car garage was a pretty sweet deal if I do say so myself.. and I am saying so myself....."
And how many lived there? Six? eight? Six brethren (aka naive saps) would be generating $750/week, which is more than $3K/month. I guarantee you can find a way nicer place for that on the open market--without all those pesky rules--and if you bring a coffeemaker or a couch, you can even take it with you when you leave! Don't students pay their own utilities nowadays too? Cha-ching! If we all had that kind of gravy train going for us, we'd be living in mansions too.
You just don't want to admit you got suckered.
Anonymous said...
I think I am going to stick up for NTCC on this one because I was specifically asked about my mental condition before I started Bible school by Rev. Kekel. He knew I had a few issues when I first started coming to church. I joyfully told him God had healed me and what was he supposed to say to me that well we will see or no your not he just took my word for it.
Jeff said...
I wonder if all the other brothers that I referenced told Pastor Kekel the same thing? 20 years later I saw and or talked to three of them in person and they were all at the time still with the NTCC, and they hadn't changed a bit from when I knew them 20 years earlier. One of them was even worse by far. WAY OUT THERE. The last time I knew, they were just a far out there twenty years later. So if the NTCC leadership knows I'm mentally off, all they do is ask me a few questions and as soon as I say "God healed me", that is the end of it and to them everything is fine? That is the whole problem in the NTCC and that in itself is specifically why I was a sucker.
All these pastors said, "God told me" and I bought off on it hook line and sinker just to figure out years later that God had told them "NOTHING".
God said you are not supposed to play sports. Then Mike Kekel says years later, "You had it all wrong Brother, you weren't listening". Pastor Hunt said God said he was supposed to pastor in Montgomery and it was never Gods plan for him to go to Columbus Georgia in the first place. That is why he left Columbus to go to Montgomery the first time, just for him to come back to Columbus Georgia not too many years later. I guess God couldn't make his mind up.
There is one thing I learned WELL from the NTCC. Never simply believe when someone says, God said this or God did that. If God himself doesn't tell you than you are making a mistake if you just blindly believe what someone else says about what God did or God said. I'm just being serious here with this question and this is not meant as an insult. How do I know that God healed your mental condition? I don't and that is my whole point.
Jeff
I really miss a lot of things about NTCC sometimes. what I miss the most is those times in church I felt Gods presence I dream about being in conference all the time.
Last night I had to break down all the barriers in my mind and just get on my knees and pray. I have been allowing all this NTCC stuff in my mind to get in the way of how I see God and how God see's me.
I remember always feeling that my prayer life would be hindered by certain actions because of various teachings. There were times I even got rid of animals because I felt they were hindering my prayer life.
One time I was so condemned by bringing a clean dvd into my home that I felt it stopped me from being in the presence of God. I threw so many various clean family movies away numerous times.
Some time after leaving NTCC for various reasons I have been a little afraid again that the only way I can feel Gods presence again is by throwing away my pants and stop having certain things in my life that are not condoned in the NTCC.
I have so missed being emerged in Gods presence but I fear the only thing keeping me from God is my own mind. Last night I prayed God please help me not to see my walk with you as a whether I wear pants or not or all these other things,let me see past these things that are hindering me in my mind feel beautiful to you.
I prayed in the Holy Spirit and fought not to lean to my own understanding. I felt his presence the same presence that I felt in conference that I have been longing to feel and dreamt of being surrounded by in a room full of people at a campground at NTCC.
Maybe its not where I am or who I am around or surrounded by but who I am in my heart. I think there were times I missed the point of this verse there were times the outward holiness was my crown. When the whole point trying to be made is all about the heart and its condition. In my Paraphrased way it is saying let your beauty not come from outward appearance but from within.
1Pe 3:3-4
Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
It is our faith in God that makes us whole. Gods presence comes from God and God alone.
This is off subject but I was reading about Christian modesty today and came up with the little saying
We ought not be wolves in sheep's clothing but we ought not better also be sheep's in wolves clothing.
A peaceful♥
I'm just being serious here with this question and this is not meant as an insult. How do I know that God healed your mental condition? I don't and that is my whole point.
Lol Jeff thank you for asking that. I believed God had healed me. In the dorm I actually had breakdown so bad I thought I was loosing my mind completely because the stress triggered it. At the time I felt it was Satan trying to take my mind. Years later let see about 8-9 years later I desperately went and sought mental help and I was Diagnosed with a serious mental condition and put on meds. Spiritual confusion and not knowing how too balance things people said made me stop taking my medication time and time again. While I was going through this I was in on this mission field. Lets just say the very whip that tried to keep me in line broke me. Wish it could have been different but I need not wish my life away and work with what God has given me today.
I wanted to comment on how men of God change there minds. They say God is speaking to them when he really hasn't or there own minds are speaking to them. I have done this myself. There were also times I slapped a band aid over a serious wound and said it was all better when the problems was really turning into a hidden infection or ticking time bomb.
"...a 3 bedroom house and a 4 car garage was a pretty sweet deal..."
Well, you're welcome. It was the money that I and other former suckers paid for absolute tenement living (one dorm in St. Louis was allegedly condemned--if it wasn't, it should have been--but that didn't stop NTCC from housing students in it) which enabled the constructions of these "sweet deal" dorms in Washington (which, as previously explained, are actually a ripoff). I'm sure they're getting way more capital appreciation from the buildings in Graham, which makes it a really "sweet deal" for them.
The place at 514 Eiler, where I also lived for awhile, was rented to the Schaeffers. They noticed a horrible stench in one room, which attracted hordes of flies. The solution? They were told to just not use that room, and nothing was done. Eventually, it was discovered that pigeons had broken in the attic and filled it with shit (now don't get all sanctimonious; it's just a descriptive word). But the slumlords didn't care; they were getting their weekly rent (in cash, no receipts furnished).
Wake up.
A peaceful said...
I really miss a lot of things about NTCC sometimes. what I miss the most is those times in church I felt Gods presence I dream about being in conference all the time.
My friend God is not confined to the NTCCs conferences. The NTCC has you mixed up. God isn't one place or another and it's not about feelings of emotion.
1. The first thing you must understand. God does not walk to the beat of our drum or anyone elses drum. The Bible says that clearly when God stopped the earth so that it's stayed light longer during the battle. Jos 10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man;
The point being is that God does not do this or do that for the NTCC just becuase there is a self appointed Apostle named RWD. God doesn't harken unto the voice of a man and there are no exceptions for the NTCC.
If God comes around he comes around and if he doesn't he doesn't. The NTCC conferences are big emotional frenzies where the same thing happens every time. Ashmore or some singing Sister starts singing and the next thing you know everyone gets all emotional and starts crying and it happens every time. RWD blasts everyone so the next thing you know, everyone thinks they are dying and going to hell and everyone falls on their face or they walk around praying and it gets louder and louder and everyone thinks it's God. The song service lasts for a half an hour or more and the next thing you know everyone starts dancing and jumping up and down and it happens like this, the exact same way, every single conference and people say, "look how God is moving".
My friend, It's not about conference. God did plenty of miraculous things during Bible times and the NTCC didn't exist yet, and what God did do, wasn't confined to one church or one person. If you want what you had in the NTCC, (and I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic) just go find a charismatic Christian church and I'll bet you experience the same.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff for your input on what I said. I actually don't miss what I saw I miss what I felt and I am trying to break down those barriers in my mind. In a few of the last conferences we were in there was times I questioned if it was really God moving or the emotions because the things that were shared really did not edify me and make me want to hop around they actually troubled me and I looked around and saw all this hoping and to me things just felt a little off. Thank you for your words of encouragement though. I have thought about it though I don't really want a church where people are emotionally pumped and primed you don't have to pump and prime a real move of God. I do want a church where the spirit of God moves though. I want to to go to a church where they believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit but I don't want a bunch of crazy. I know some good Christian people but I haven't really found a church I completely agree with and feel at home in at the time. It adds to the feeling like a fish out of water feeling.
A peaceful♥
Again I say NTCC is a FAMILY business! If your name isn't DAVIS or KEKEL you are disposable. Also think about it, if you don't have one of those last names you are only customers. If you are a member of NTCC you are just a cash flow. Get it thru your head people.
Vic said...
The place at 514 Eiler, where I also lived for awhile, was rented to the Schaeffers. They noticed a horrible stench in one room, which attracted hordes of flies. The solution? They were told to just not use that room, and nothing was done. Eventually, it was discovered that pigeons had broken in the attic and filled it with shit (now don't get all sanctimonious; it's just a descriptive word). But the slumlords didn't care; they were getting their weekly rent (in cash, no receipts furnished).
Jeff said...
Ha, ha, ha. LOL. WOW. Just so you know it's actually not funny at all, it's sick. What is humorous is the way Vic wrote the statement. According to Sis Davis that would be just another lie of the devil. On other occasions, I've heard similar stories from tenants of NTCC slum lords. This clearly shows just how consistently inconsiderate, indecent and un-Christian-like NTCC land lords can be. They don't care about their tenants, they only care about when they will be paid their cash. It's sickening and disgusting to read such testimonies but these stories are all to common among current or exNTCCers.
People, this is what the NTCC is really all about.
Can you believe that they were told to simply not to use the room? I believe it because once again, I've heard the same stories too many times before. Olson or Davis or Wright should have immediately paid whatever the cost to get the problem fixed. They should have refunded these people at least one months rent also. Listen NTCC people. Your NTCC leadership are some seriously low down sorry individuals. And I'm supposed to believe that the NTCC is about love and good will toward their fellow man? Please, it's all about the NTCC leadership making a buck by whatever means necessary, even if that means having your church members living in a crap infested dump.
Jeff
Hey Jeff, you'd like it here--no permit whatsoever is required for concealed carry.
Anon.. I lived there with my wife and 2 children.
Vic and all-
remember back in the 70's- RW let it be known they had no pay for week of so- so students robbed their piggy banks to supply it- know what? all that time RW had many properties- why not sell one and live off that? oh no... is this not deception?
I meant RW and JHO had no money left to give themselves a draw. Lets see how many other pledges were going on? Pledges for Bus ministry, pledges for paneling on walls, pledges for new pews at 2170F. Then one conference- everybody supposed to pledge 1,000 dollars for a year. HUH? Money manipulator supreme. And we were a ragtag motley crew of mind-blown zombies sitting in the hot heat upstairs- in sport jackets we could take off about once... what absolute mind control! and it continues unabated for those on "Graham Hill" today.
Oh, and if tithes go to the (storehouse) "place where the lambs are fed", as Pop Gaylord said- then RW and crew never were or are due any tithe. They do not know the WORD as they could- and do not legally FEED the sheep... they shear the sheep. "No tithe for you, NTCC, next!"
They have poisoned the trough where not sheep but pigs feed. Big fat slobs in their opulence! Oh I could preach about now about the brutish "so-called pastors, false apostles..." who should as the WORD says BE TRIED and prove to be NOT apostles! Not first up before the throne! NO NO NO.
Vic said...
Hey Jeff, you'd like it here--no permit whatsoever is required for concealed carry.
Jeff said...
It is nice in Alaska. I was stationed there from 92-95 at Ft. Richardson and I spent a lot of time at Ft. Wainwright also for one reason or another. I bought a few handguns in Alaska. A Desert Eagle 44 mag and a Glock 17, both of which I've sold. I fished a lot while I was there. I got tired of the winters though. I'm a down hill and cross country skier and I've been since I was a child. I ski very well but once again I got tired of the winters. I wouldn't mind going back to do some salmon fishing. Not really any good ski resorts in Alaska. Alyeska was so-so. It wasn't near the size of the north east U.S. ski resorts. It was no where near the ones in Europe either. Switzerland and Austria were OUTSTANDING.
From a down hill skiing stand point, I've never seen anything like the European resorts. I've never seen anything like the fishing in Alaska though. Not even close and I've been all over the world Vic. Take care Vic and congrats for your land purchase.
Jeff
I was stationed at Ft. Rich too, back in '76. Got saved there, in fact (before I ever heard of NTCC). I don't have time to do as much fishing as I'd like, but we do go dipnetting every summer and bring home 30+ sockeyes for the freezer. I need to get with it and start harvesting some moose too.
Getting ready to buy a chainsaw. There are 48 acres all told, and they're thick with arboreal weeds (aka aspen trees). The snow will be melting in a couple months. We just got about 2 feet last week.
If you ever get the itch, you're sure welcome here. We'll go pike fishing.
Actually, Darwin, I got there in 1980. Right after you guys bought those pews. I do remember those $1,000 (and some much higher) pledges; I paid several of those. Makes me kind of ill now, but I definitely got some education from such high tuition.
Pastor Briggs: I don't doubt that you rented a nice place. If you say it I believe it. I just don't think they were doing you any favors. I think you were doing them a favor by renting their property. People who invest in real estate? That is how they make their money.
Just imagine if I were the Commanding General at a military installation and I bought up a lot of property so I could rent it to my soldiers? Sir to me it's not much different than Mike and Tanya Kekel having sisters come over to clean their house. They are making merchandise of their people and they are using them. You go to RWD's seminary and because of the location, it's extremely hard to make ends meet. So RWD being a smart guy, buys up a bunch of property and rents it to his students and members because he knows he is guaranteed to make money using that method because they almost have no other choice but to rent from him. If they rent from a quote "sinner" they get dogged from the pulpit because they'd rather put money in a sinners pocket than a so called saint.
Sir, the NTCC did you no favors by renting you a house, you did them a favor. Do you think RWD would rent from you or pay you tithe. He'd brake away from your church in a minute and start his own and the proof is in his history. I can't stand RWD but the one thing about him that I understand is that he is his OWN man. Do you think God limits organizational ownership to one man?
What about your family Pastor Briggs? What about your kids? They can't possibly mean less to you than RWDs organization? I could appreciate you saying that God is the most important person to you but the NTCC ain't God. Not even close.
All the work you are doing is going into another mans pocket. You believe in paying tithe and that is up to you. Then why can't it stay in "YOUR" church. All of it. If RWD pays tithe it stays in the NTCC which he owns. You don't own the NTCC or the building you have church in or the house you rented. What about when your kids get older Sir? Is God going to take care of them? You better let God know that his plan doesn't quite jive up with yours because the last time I read the Bible, God expects you to take care of them. I understand that God helps in many ways but he doesn't expect us to be ignorant either.
I'm not saying your not taking care of your family by any means but all the money that goes to Graham and all the money that goes into an escrow account that you have no control over, you could have complete control over and what is wrong with that? Isn't RWD in control? Aren't the Kekels? You better believe they are. Sir the NTCC isn't doing you any favors and if you think they are, they've got you right where they want you. In the palm of their hand.
continued below...
I don't like Ron Denis and I didn't, but I don't blame him a bit for starting his own church and it wasn't like he had to fight all those ministers to get them to go along with him. It ain't about money Sir, but the last time I checked we need it in 2011 and to me, I'd rather give it to my Wife and Kids than the NTCC INC. You could still pay tithe Sir. RWD pays tithe, to his own organization / corporation. Who else does he give it to. He has been doing that all along. You are a pastor so why can't you pay tithe to your own church? What because God hasn't told you to? Do you think he told RWD to?
The Biggest slap in my face was finding out that Grant Kekel participated in all those activities in school that my daughter was denied because I was stupid enough to explicitly follow the guidance of a few crooked NTCC pastors.
If I had one million dollars I would rather that my family get every last dollar of the one million than to see one single penny go toward Grant Kekels college education. I already paid for enough of his high school education at almost $20,000 a year. The Kekels kids and your kids don't mean as much to me as my kids and you should be no different Sir. My daughter is getting ready to start college and she is going to one of the best colleges in the United States and she needs every dime she can get and the NTCC won't get one penny of it. RWD won't put your kid through college and you can bank on that Sir. All I can say Sir is that money that comes into your church should stay in your church and you should be in control of all of it or you are not the real pastor. Does Mike Kekel send a report to you showing the money and numbers for every church service at Graham? You better believe he doesn't and you wouldn't either if you were married to Tanya and that is the only difference. You are just an expendable token and that is not intended to be an insult Sir, that is a fact. RWD is no ones token and he hasn't been for decades and Mike and Tanya Kekel have never been tokens. Every other pastor in the NTCC is a token and they will always be as long as they aren't exclusively in control of the church they pastor.
The NTCC dangles carrots when they buy a building and then the pastor thinks he has something when in reality he has nothing. His name ain't on the title and he doesn't control all the money that his very own members give. The NTCC leadership is afraid that Old Pastor Briggs is going to run off with all the money and that is why the escrow is set up because they don't trust you but you are supposed to trust them? Not on my dead body. I trust you way more than I trust them because I don't trust them at all; not one single bit.
Jeff
Vic said...
If you ever get the itch, you're sure welcome here. We'll go pike fishing.
Jeff said...
Don't be one bit surprised Vic if one day I take you up on that offer. I'd like to see Alaska one more time before I die and I'm being serious when I say that. Are you thinking about getting a Stihl or Husqvarna? Bang for the buck I'd probably go with a Husqvarna. I've cut down a lot of wood in my life Vic using a chain saw. I used to have my own wood cutting business where I cut down trees and sold them blocked and split by the cord. If I wanted something heavy duty, I'd say the Husqvarna is the way to go. I used to cut with a couple Stihls and they are strong, but I don't think they are any better than the Husqvarnas. If you don't want anything real heavy duty I tell you that a homelite will practically last forever. I have a homelite now that is probably 20 years old I would guess. I've beat this thing to death and it just won't quit. My dad had it before he died years ago and I still have it now and I've used it a lot. I'll be using it this weekend. The main thing is a sharp chain, a good bar, and plenty of bar and chain oil at all times. You may already know this stuff but in case you don't, I was hoping to give you some good info.
Jeff
Jeff said:
The NTCC dangles carrots when they buy a building and then the pastor thinks he has something when in reality he has nothing.
Just a guy reading this blog said:
I have been told by more than one NTCC pastor that even after the org buys the building, and the org owns the building, NTCC the org requires that local congregation/pastor to pay rent to the org for the use of that org owned building. This is in addition to the tithe of the tithe, general fund church tithe, and church insurance.
I wonder if Pastor Briggs has any info about that, considering he is quite knowledgable about the Memphis real estate acquisition.
Chief, do you think anyone named Victor Eric Johanson would be buying anything but a Swedish chainsaw? Yah, you betcha, vere buying da Hoosky.
My son has one that he used to clear two separate lots he has, and highly recommends them. It was a prodigious amount of wood. And I've got some other Swedish stuff--Hagstrom and Levin guitars and an old Volvo out in the yard, a '65 PV544. It's my midlife crisis project car, but right now other projects are intervening, so it might end up as my old age project car. One day I'm going to tool around in some Swedish iron, though. Those old Volvos are bulletproof. And you can fix anything on them yourself.
I grow a crop of yellow Swedish peas every year so I can make a few bowls of traditional old country soup. They do pretty good up here.
The pike are calling you.
Bro Jeff,
You hit the JACKPOT!!! 7-7-7!!!
Hey you die hard tithe payers, read this statement from Jeff three times fast:
If RWD pays tithe it stays in the NTCC which he owns.
If RWD pays tithe it stays in the NTCC which he owns.
If RWD pays tithe it stays in the NTCC which he owns.
Bro Jeff, this is the BEST one liner I have read in years!!
Very good point. I will use this arguement if I ever run into another NTCC Preacher who wants to argue this to me.
What you are essentially stating is that RW Davis is paying himself.
I wish someone would pay me a measly buck!!!
Bro Johnson
Bro Jeff,
RW Davis' family buisness is exactly why I chose Metal Detecting as a hobby.
What I find is mine. I don't know much about fishing, but in MD the hobby pays you back in clad, and in some instances, a little bit more.
There is nothing more exciting than finding gold or silver in many forms and fashions.
If some guy with holes in his pants doesn't care about a Mercury dime back in 1936 and I just happen to come along 75 years later and find it
That is HIS loss and MY gain.
I get the dime PLUS the accumulated value of the silver in the dime.
It is MINE, ALL mine Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!
Bro Johnson
Just a guy reading a blog said...
I have been told by more than one NTCC pastor that even after the org buys the building, and the org owns the building, NTCC the org requires that local congregation/pastor to pay rent to the org for the use of that org owned building.
Jeff said...
I've been told the same thing. That is even worse.
Jeff
I can just see RWD sitting back while he dreamed up all these money making ventures.
"What do you think Joe, we'll buy these buildings and then rent them to our pastors"? "Do you think they'll buy off on that one"? "Yeah, we got them good and brainwa.., I mean trained pretty well." "Do you think they are gullible enough to still send money to Graham and let us control the escrow accounts also"? "Yeah Joe, we've pretty much broke them of any sense of independence."
"If they go for it Joe that is great, but I wouldn't ever buy off on a plan like that, but it can't hurt to try". "Let see if we can figure out any more ways to keep the assets out of the hands of these pastors". "We could start by hiring people to work on our building crews and then when we pay them, it will be like free labor because we'll get all the money back when they pay us to live in our rental properties, give tithe, give to the offerings, pledges, pay rent on our church buildings, tuition, dorm fees, and a special offering that we'll take up for a black top that we may or may not ever pave."
"Sounds like a good plan, hey Joe"?
Jeff
To the guy reading the blog
I've never paid off a building so I wouldn't know what happens after that.
To Jeff,
Rent in Washington State was close too if not over 1000 a month for a nice decent, safe apartment for my family. The 3 bedroom house with the four care garage (whihc I wish I still had for my woodworking equipment and shop) was $500 a month... Yes they ddi me a favor I could not have found a place like that for anywhere near that price.
So did they benefit from my paying the rent.. sure... I think in all honesty that I benefitted more.
But guys.. comeon.. you sound more like a lot of jealous money hungry people.. you do better when you stick to arguining the "scriptural" reasons why we are wrong.
Vic
Nice swedish accent (I could imagine it through the computer screen).
A lot of it is based on fear. Many will give all the money they have if it meant that they would get to heaven! They tell them "if you don't pay this money" then you are not even a Christian. They pay the money to be excepted, loved, have the pastor smile at them, also to increase their chances of going to heaven. Who wouldn't pay money to get to heaven?
RB, Let's reason out a couple things here. Though you seemed to benefit, it was due to unlawful behavior on behalf of the NTCC. Did you pay in cash?....I will assume 'YES'
NTCC is able to appear benevolent because they are not paying taxes on their income. So you make out as well. I see this everyday in the business world, the 'oh so nice' business owner has his workers collect unemployment and pays them under the table, they make out like bandits and he seems SO kind! In fact he is exploiting his workers and cheating the government. Your "pastor" is exploiting you and cheating the government! Us some common sense, don't try to stick up for these Hell bound heretics!
...and yes, I will say it out loud, the leadership at NTCC is going to Hell! no doubt about it (unless they repent) the Bible is clearer on the eternal state of false teachers than most other doctrines!
I have family in the NTCC, and we all know what NTCC is about and we weep for our family and the ruin they are making of there lives.
As your brain-washed mind is now justifying "we don't know if they were not paying taxes", STOP! be realistic, why does any organization demand cash all the time? Legitimate business prefer anything but cash, because they are not going to steal it or "lose" it or cheat the government of it.
If you are serious about your doubts, do this: Call headquarters and ask for a print out of all the rent you paid while in their home as well as a print out of all tithe and offering payments for the last X many years. See what happens, I am sure it will remove the rose colored glasses from your eyes...
Sincerely,
TB
Anon said "who wouldn't pay money to get to heaven?"
That is the saddest part of the NTCC charade, paying to get to heaven. What a slap in God's face! What a mockery of the cross! What a treading on the BLOOD of Christ!!
I know I am going to heaven, not because I am good or better than anyone else. I am going to heaven because I have put my trust in the finished work of Christ as he poured out his blood on the cross and has now entered the Holy of Holies and has made access for me by His shed blood upon the Mercy seat in the midst of the presence of God!
When I get to heaven I will acquire as to RWD's whereabouts, if he is in heaven as well then I have found God to be untrustworthy and not keep his word. I am so sure that RWD will not be there (unless he repents) I would bet eternity on it!
Sincerely,
TB
"Vic
Nice swedish accent (I could imagine it through the computer screen)."
Yah, you betcha. My fathers parents came from there, and I grew up listening to them speak Swenglish. When we were kids, my brother told me that he heard our Farfar (that's father's father) tell our Farmor (father's mother) to pick him up a 'yockstrap' when she went shopping. Cracked us up.
RB said...
To Jeff,
Rent in Washington State was close too if not over 1000 a month for a nice decent, safe apartment for my family. The 3 bedroom house with the four care garage (whihc I wish I still had for my woodworking equipment and shop) was $500 a month... Yes they did me a favor I could not have found a place like that for anywhere near that price.
Jeff said...
You are right with what you said Sir. "Rent in Washington". That spells it all. You said it all right there. Some years back, my wife looked up the cost of living in Washington and specifically around the Graham area and it was one of the highest in the entire United States of America. You still don't see it Sir. RWD chooses "Graham Washington" for his school where the cost of living is abnormally high and he creates a situation where the "students and ministers need him." If I move you out in the middle of nowhere and the cost of rent is through the roof, will you rent from me also? Sir, you can't possibly be serious?
Then RWD rents you a house that he owns in full, and because you had almost no other choice but to rent from him, now you think he did you a favor? Are you kidding me Pastor Briggs? You wouldn't have been in one of the highest cost of living areas in the "ENTIRE US" had RWD not stuck his seminary in the middle of nowhere. He set up the whole situation and now you guys think he is doing you a favor? If he'd set up the school in Mississippi you could have owned a house for $500 a month and rented it out yourself when you left but RWD wouldn't want that. You'd be cutting in on his profits.
My goodness, RWD has a lot of people hoodwinked. Before we knew how crooked the NTCC leadership is, one of the biggest griefs my wife and I had was the location of the NTCS. We didn't want to move all the way out to the north west into one of the highest cost of living areas in the entire United States. RWD has placed people into a situation where it's hard for them to make it and then they think he's done them a favor?
That would be like me sticking you out in the middle of a dry desert and when I show up daily with food and water, you think I'm doing you a favor? I'm the one who stuck you out in the middle of the desert and RWD is the one who stuck the NTCS in back woods Graham in the high cost of living state of Washington. I also know why RWD moved there. So he could get as far away from St. Louis as possible and still be in the continental US. He had too many bones in the closet in St. Louis and he wanted to get his school, headquarters, and residence as far from the city of St. Louis as possible.
Jeff
Hey Vic, I found a comment that you tried to post yesterday which was still sitting in the queue. I posted it. That happens sometimes or occasionally the blog thinks it's spam and then I have to post it. You were responding to a guy named Dave Dyal. Your message is viewable now.
Jeff
Jeff, I noticed that post didn't take, so I posted it again. Then I noticed that the thread has content moderation enabled. You must have been dealing with some spammers.
Jeff, I appreciate your passion but you just don't see it. The cost of living in Graham, which is only minutes from Puyallup is not high because it's in the middle of no where.. becuase it's not the middle of nowhere. It's high becasue of the corporations which are housed in the area like Microsoft, Boeing, Wyerhauser. Don't forget these companies move their becaue of the tax shelters. The cost of living on the housing market is because of the supply and demand concept. Don't forget I lived in washington becasue of the US Army originally. For me to go to Graham was a simple hop skip and a jump to get there once I ETS'ed.
You can't allways read something in where there is nothing to be found. At the time the school was founded the property values were low. Relocation to that neck of the woods was the best choice for all simply because there would be room to grow. The property was cheap... and over the years as all of it has been constructed upon it's value in the building alone went up then as the cost of the housing market began to soar in the 90's it became a boon for the organization. Pastor's foresight has actually been a blessing for the whole organization but I don't expect you to believe that.
I can say that I was glad I lived there where I could get a decent wage because of all fo the work availability. It was a whole lot better then being in St. Louis where the housing was decrepid, and the work was scarce. Just saying there is another side to this coin.
TB.. you have never conducted business yourself and it's evident. A ligitamate business will always prefer cash over any other means of payment for one simple reason... COLLECTION.
Did you know everytime you buy something with plastic the person you buy from pays twice for that "priveledge" that's why so many say you have to buy over a certain amount.
Most businesses do not accept out of state checks, and some won't accept checks at all..... Why?
Collection costs....
As a Pastor of a church I can tell you when someon bounces a check and I have to then deduct a $35 service fee from our General Fund Ledger I always think the same thing... "THANKS FOR USING GOD's MOney so FOOLISHLY"
Do you even think about things like that or do you only think about things from your limited perspective? A perspective which can not comprehend what it has not been a part of.
Your words were nice when strained through the sive of human emotion, but when put under the press of Human Experience, and Pastoral education you just don't know what your talking about. And I am not trying to offend you.
How in the world would you ever begin to collect on checks that come from 50 states? Granted if they are no good they money was given anway... but what about the Service fees the banks charge is that a good use of God's money paying for checks that Christian's sent that will probably never be repaid.. And if the check get's repaid do you then ask for the $35 service fee?
What's your answer to such a delemma because I am just dying to hear it.
TO JEFF
Can I ask a serious question? It's based on your points about the cost of living and how you didn't want to move to Washington because of it...
Here is the question
Where does faith come in to this?
And one more....
Is there ever a time when God will ask a preacher to go somewhere that they can not afford in the flesh... and ask them to go on faith?
Mr. Briggs,
Your question was,
"Is there ever a time when God will ask a preacher to go somewhere that they can not afford in the flesh... and ask them to go on faith?"
If this ever happens, it would have to be refutable and without a doubt in signs and wonders that God would want to put a person through this dillema.
I'm sorry, maybe my faith is small, but God would have to prove to me that he wanted me to do this.
Put God to the Test.
I.e. doors would open, cash would have to come in from sources never before used, the red sea would have to part, manna would have to come from heaven, the sun would not set.
Your diving into the realm of miracles here.
One NTCC Preacher said it best: If God wants you to be somewhere, He will move Heaven and Earth to make it happen.
I stand just an equal chance of winning the Grand Prize Lottery tonight in Powerball. When I win the Grand Prize, I will say your question has legitamacy.
Yes, I probally sinned playing Powerball, but what is the differnce in Playing Powerball verses Playing the Stockmarket? there is now guarantee return for either. I consider it an investment.
At least I threw my name in the mix. I want to give myself a chance to win. And I am going on Faith. I believe I will be a millionaire. And I believe that the Lottery is my quick fix ticket.
An NTCC Preacher once told me that I can do whatever I want to do with my money after I paid my tithe. He said, and I quote "If you want to blow your money on 50 Candybars that is on you. You gave to God first"
Another Side of the Coin.
Bro Johnson
TB... I just have to look at my tax returns for the last x-many years because they show how much tithe I paid... and how much rent.... becuase I file taxes and I report my income and expenses as well as charitable contributions...which is the government word for tithe and offerings
Sgt Johnson...
I a can accept your answer. However you would be hard pressed to get a hearty Amen from me.. remember Peter's Silver and Gold have I none? Or Jesus's in ability to pay his taxes... they didn't wait for the miracles to come BEFORE they went. They went and the miracles came....
You take faith out when you require the sight first.... sorry your logic is flawed.
TB - and since I had to record where I lived and weather or not I owned or rented they would be looking for a corresponding income tax statement from the "renter". Even though we are a church, the properties that people live on minus maybe the actual singles dorms I don't know - are not church owned and therefore taxable as income for the owner and/or corporation.
Hey Sgt Johnson.. I know how much you were looking forward to our Christmas Pageant so I thought I would send you these links.. I just posted the video today. it's two parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KgvGw_xtrs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOy4euLFnQo
RB. you may have simply ETS'ed from Ft. Lewis but that is hardly the case with everyone. I wasn't saying that the cost of living is high in Washington, (because Graham is out in the middle of nowhere). I was saying that the cost of living is high in Washington "and" Graham is out in the middle of nowhere which makes it that much harder to make ends meet. These Washington statistics didn't just happen this year.
I just fond this on the internet: "Seattle, Washington, which for "several" years in a row has been voted by Forbes magazine as America’s most over priced city. Seattle has had exceedingly low job growth, add to that an extreme high cost of living with median prices on homes nearing $400,000 and it’s no wonder that Seattle also has one of the Worlds Highest Suicide rates"
The cost of living has been high in New York as long as I can remember and it's the same out west. I'm from New York and I've lived all over the United States. Since RWD moved the NTCC headquarters up to Washington it was never a low cost of living area in comparison to the majority of other states in the US. It didn't just turn into either the highest or second highest state to live in over night.
RWD may have got land for a good price but that is the NTCC INC land, not yours. He certainly wasn't loosing money with his rentals, I'll guarantee that. Why did you rent from RWD? You already said it. Because you thought you were getting a good deal. You don't think RWD set it up that way? The only way he could be sure that his properties were rented is by creating a demand for what he had to offer and if he created affordable rental properties, then he could guarantee that his properties would get rented.
You wouldn't have stayed in Graham Washington and rented one of RWDs houses if he wouldn't have provided the rental houses and put the school there. That is what you don't see. He put the school there and then bought buildings that he knew he could rent to the people who came because he made them affordable. RWD saw dollar signs on the forehead of every one of you the minute that you showed up at his school and the fact that the school is out in the middle of nowhere gave you few options. Rent from him or spend more money. Supply and demand Sir. RWD knew this would be a money making venture for him. That is why he said that he prayed to become a millionaire because that is what he is all about. He made merchandise out of everyone except one family. The Kekels.
If he really wanted to do you a favor, he'd sell you the house and by the time you left you could rent it but that would take "HIS" profits away. I should buy a bunch of land out in the middle of nowhere, get some houses, start a school and then bring my recruits out in the middle of nowhere so their best option is to rent from ME!!!!!
Pastor Briggs, this is just another one that we don't see the same way. I'll tell you one thing you can't deny, your CASH was winding up in either RWDs pocket or in the organization that he owns every time you paid rent, paid tithe, gave an offering, or gave a pledge. Now that you are a pastor it's the same way. His organization gets a piece of every pie you make. As an NTCC pastor, you'll never own a church building like RWD, you'll never control all the money that comes into your church like RWD, you'll never be in control of the escrow accounts like RWD, you'll never rent a bunch of houses to Graham students and ministers like RWD, you'll never buy a church building and rent it to a pastor like RWD and you'll never be in control of anything like RWD to include your own church. As long as you are in the NTCC you'll never be your OWN man, you will always be RWD's or Tanya's man, one or the other, unless they both die before you. Sooner or later you might even answer to Grant. Imagine that.
Jeff
RB said...
TB - and since I had to record where I lived and weather or not I owned or rented they would be looking for a corresponding income tax statement from the "renter". Even though we are a church, the properties that people live on minus maybe the actual singles dorms I don't know - are not church owned and therefore taxable as income for the owner and/or corporation.
Jeff said...
Come on Pastor Briggs. The IRS deals with hundreds of millions of tax returns. They can barley skim the surface with audits. They don't have someone sitting around saying, "Ah look, Robert Briggs tax return with this address on it." "Let go make sure that the person he rented from payed taxes on the income." Your logic is flawed on that one Pastor Briggs.
Jeff
"...as well as charitable contributions...which is the government word for tithe and offerings..."
Well, your pastor says that tithe is paid to a man and therefore not tax deductible.
I know, you and Mike just blow off what he says and act like it's just some old fogey's opinion, but I never had that cavalier of an attitude about the "apostle" while I was under his thumb. I didn't have the gonads to believe that the "man of God" was all wet and that his words could just be disregarded. What kind of rebel would think that way about his pastor? When it got to the point that I saw many of his pronouncements as obviously bogus, I didn't stick around to be disobedient. I removed myself from his orbit before I started doing my own thing. Try it; it's way less stressful. Or maybe you've learned not to stress over being disobedient. I just can't relate.
You know what Pastor Briggs? Some of what you are saying is logical and does make sense and I'm enjoying your messages. You are a good debater. We should open up a law firm. Collins and Briggs - Attorneys at Law. We'd probably win a lot of cases. Your tithe argument and RWDs money making scheme rebuttal wouldn't get past too many juries but otherwise you'd do pretty well. LOL
Jeff
Jeff.. I guess you make a good case for me being an NTCC preacher that is not about the MONEY...
You see I don't think it was wrong, and I don't regret living where I did. It was much better then I could afford, and it was much safer then any other area I could have been in. I got more then my money's worth.
If the school were in St. Louis the argument here would still be the same because there is nothing the man or organization can do that is right as far as most here are concerned. And, frankly speaking, that's why you can never convince someone like me. I at least admit there are some valid reasons that some people have for leaving. Wrongs were done by some, to some. But I can not remember where anyone here would admit any good AT ALL...and that is just not being honest. Anyone that wants to see the truth with recognize that. Polarization in either direction is wrong.
I can appreciate your analysis. But you've not walked in one of those houses. Could they have been built somewhere else? Sure, but Pop was the one that brought Pastor Davis up to Washington to show him a piece of property that he had bought... and that piece of property became part of the school.
You need to know more then you do in order to make an appropriate analysis. That is if you want to broker in facts and not conjecture. I agree, for an audience that wants to believe the "worst" of things conjecture is all that is required. For those readers who are looking for truth, and only truth. For those who want Godliness and a clean heart and mind... conjecture offers them no such peace.
Facts Jeff, just the facts. And the fact is there are too many things unknown to you about why the organizational headquarters and Bible school are in Washington state. And I for one would appreciate it if you would acknowledge that there can be honest, upright reasons for this move just as there can be nefarious ones as you've conjectured.
I hope we can still be cyber friends though!
Ooops.. sorry Jeff.. In the interm of me writing my rebuttal (the last one) you posted.. so I need to acknowledge you're willingness to admit there can be some good reasons. Thanks.. I would to God more people on both sides of this thing would do that. Maybe, just maybe, we could all get something done for God. That is assuming everyone still wants to do something for God.
Jeff said
Come on Pastor Briggs. The IRS deals with hundreds of millions of tax returns. They can barley skim the surface with audits. They don't have someone sitting around saying, "Ah look, Robert Briggs tax return with this address on it."
Robert Says
Jeff, while they do not check every tax return.. the information is still there. Can you honestly tell me that not one exer tried to call the IRS on our organization? I've read in many places where they were organizing an effort to do so. I just have to believe someone actually did. And if so, the IRS would check into it would they not?
They risk a whole lot the larger their "empire" grows (your description not mine) if they didn't report. Because I know who I made my rent payable to each time I paid it.. and it was not NTCC.
Speaking of Law.. I had to go to court today on a frivolous ticket... had 5 state prosecutors scratching their heads at my defense.. they hated to do it but they threw the case out.
For those wondering I got a ticket when my front tires crossed over a solid white line during a bumper to bumper traffic jam...
If anyone ever gets one like that.. Federal law says solid white lines are discouraged from being crossed but not illegal. Double white lines, and yellow lines are illegal to cross.
Maybe a law firm could work... defense and prosecution all rolled up into one!
pattern here. all men are blogging on this blog. Maybe one exception is Ange,but it could be Don writing.
women have left Jeffs blog!
Vic, Vic, Vic.. come on.. you paint yourself with a tender brush on your last post. "I never had such a cavalier attitude..." sure you did... you moved out to an apartment you said so yourself.
And BTW I talked with an overseer about the very subect, two of them infact. Both of which are still with us, and highly regarded. Both of them sat in leadership above leaders, and above the leaders leaders if you know what I mean. And they said...a nd I qote
The government gives an allowance in their laws enabling a person of faith to give a portion of their "income" to a religious or charitable organization without being penalized for doing so. By claiming them on your taxes you have not taken your tithe back from the house of God. You have just lowered your Gross income lowering your tax bracket enabling you to feel relief from the amount they take from you...."
The bottom line being you payed your tithe on the gross income... they acknowledge your right to support your house of worship (they being the governement) and allow you to adjust your gross income.
If the governement went to the church, took the money I paid in tithe back, and then handed it back to me THEN it would be wrong to claim tithe on your taxes.
But THEY DON't!
Anon... Peaceful Heart is a woman, Ange is a woman, and April is a woman.. the rest of the people write Anon. so who knows... My thinks some of them write a little girly though :p
Sure there is some truth to what you've written. I still think RWD is a crook because I know the man. I may not have lived in one of his houses but I know that man. I know the way he acts because I've witnessed his actions. I know what he taught because I heard him on many occasions. I wasn't around him nearly as much as you've been but I've been around this world long enough to figure that guy out and he is all about money. I think I may be older than you and sometimes with age comes experience and I've had my share. RWD is an abusive control monger and so are so many of his pastors and I've witnessed it first hand.
Every decision he makes revolves around money and I know what the Bible says about people who think that way. It says they've erred from the faith. Either the Bible is wrong or RWD is wrong, one or the other. Advanced Theology? A class about managing money? That is what RWD is all about so yes you are right Sir. I see very little other than bad in that man. He has destroyed lives and I take that real serious. You admit to the damages that the NTCC has caused but you take it lightly compared to me. I witnessed it and I lived it and I hate it and I will no longer be any part of it. That may not be serving God but that is not playing with God either. The NTCC leadership plays with God with all their double standards. You want me to see good? That would be like looking for good in someone who raped my own child. I don't care about compairatively what little good they've done. Their bad has far outweighed their good. The NTCC has wrecked peoples lives and I don't take that lightly. You may not have Pastor Briggs but your comrades sure did and I personally witnessed it and I know what these crooks are all about. RWD made and formed these abusive jerks and I was one of the unfortunate guys who wound up dealing with one right after another. EVERY SINGLE ONE WAS ABUSIVE AND A HYPOCRITE. I had Six NTCC pastors and they all were the same and who do you think they learned that garbage from. RWD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They were all about money and so is RWD and he said it Pastor Briggs and I heard him with my own two ears. That is the main thing that everyone of these crooks talked about and taught about. Money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money!!!!! I know what I heard. Ramirez went absolutely nuts one day over money for like a half hour straight non stop. It was frequently a topic of the Bible studies. RWD controls your escrow account because he doesn't trust you but you just blindly trust him. What is wrong with that picture?
That's ok Sir. Just keep doing things the NTCC way and you'll be renting some church building from the NTCC or someone else till the day you die. You can keep paying the Kekels salary because they certainly won't be getting any more salary from me.
Jeff
women have left Jeffs blog!
So what are you saying April?
Jeff check spam because I think two comments from others are missing..
I can understand your points... and your right I don't agree for the most part with them. While the "abusive jerks" as you called them were NTCC preachers, and taught by the same man... so was I, so was Pop gaylord, and any other men you might think are somewhat ok. What are we? Anonomalies? Freaks? And if so, why do we not respond the same way?
Yes, I can be tough, but I can also be very kind. I am already noted here as a "Renegade" and yet for 6 years now no action has been taken to "put me in my place". My pulpit is not gone so why?
Anyway... thaks for the debate... and the objectivity... that's all I really hope to achieve...
I look forward to the next issue that seems good to attempt to reason out.
Good night..
Jeff,
B-I-N-G-O!! You pinned the donkey on the tail when you stated
"Sooner or later you might even answer to Grant. Imagine that".
If this guy is not saved, and RW Davis and the Kekels both kick the bucket,
Mr. Briggs, Sir, your respectfully out of the equation.
Olson is out of the equation.
MacDonald is out of the equation.
So is Johnson, Kinson, Gandy, Devonshire, Stevens, Scrivens, and anyone still hanging out at Graham.
I would like to read RW Davis' Last Will and Testament.
Who is the executioner of his Estate(s)
Who gets disposition of remains?
BLUF: WHO GETS THE MONEY??
It is easy to Pledge Alligence to the Flag when you see it.
It is easy to Pledge Alligence to RW Davis when he is alive.
But, Death is the Great Equalizer.
It would be difficult to Fathom NTCC Heavyweights answering to a KID.
Seems like whenever this happened in the Bible, when a boy was made king either he was killed or steered the wrong way by his elders.
"Well, Brother (sic) Grant, your Father would have wanted it this way"
"Brother Grant, the work in Panama could be greatly used by God with a few more $$$"
"Brother Grant, we need to have an emergency Board Meeting and discuss your Father's priorities".
The last time I checked, the CEO's son lives the good life (Watch The Green Hornet movie, it is a blast and you'll understand exactly what I am talking about).
Bloodline means everything to the Rich and Famous. You don't accumulate wealth all your life just to give it away.
The last time I checked, there is still a guy named Rockerfeller who hangs out at Capital Hill because he is a Congressman.
My point is, the goal of the rich, is once you have MILLIONS or BILLIONS you invest it for posterity (your family line). It is how you are best remembered. It is easy to make money once you have a lot of it.
As one NTCC preacher used to say, "Money is a wonderful Servant. It is a terrible Master"
Bro Johnson
Sgt Johnson you said
Who is the executioner of his Estate(s)
But I think you mean executor (easy mistake :) )
You don't stop serving in the Army when a president comes into office you don't like or agree with do you? (Though the retention rate does fluctuate during contriversial administrations doesn't it)
I don't serve solely for the man. Though I do choose to remain in service because of the man.. if that makes sense to you.
Have you ever had to salute an officer younger then you? Say yes sir to someoen you didn't respect?
Well, I think probably so, and that day might come for me... actually in some cases it has.. but and I do make a big BUT here (LOL) my experiences are where I draw my conclusions from not anyone elses. I can take theirs into consideration, but I have to weigh them against my own. I know you can respect that.
That's all I am trying to say.
Congratulations BTW on the Sgt Audie Murphy Club... but didn't eh end up a Lt?
I will say this and you can take it for what it's worth. I've never went to any military installation where the Commanding General bought every house he could get his hands on and then rented them all out to the soldiers who personally worked for him. He would get relieved even if he saved every soldier a fortune.
That is taking advantage of your authority and position and using your position to create profit and more importantly manipulating your people for personal gain. Now other NTCC pastors want a peace of the pie. I know of other pastors who've bought houses and rent them to other ministers. I know of pastors who bought old cars and sell them to their church members.
Pastor Briggs for the tenth time it's called making merchandise of your people and the Bible talks about it in a bad way and it doesn't matter if the house you rented was the best house you ever lived in. All you are to RWD is a dollar sign. You either bring in the money or you are useless to him and or his organzation and that Sir isn't what Christ is all about. That is what RWD is all about. How many Apostles did you read about in the book of Acts who bought a bunch of rental properties and rented them to their church members? NONE. Apostles in the New Testament weren't trying to get rich off of their church members under the pretense that they were saving them money.
Jeff
"but Pop was the one that brought Pastor Davis up to Washington to show him a piece of property that he had bought..."
Mr. Briggs, I heard this also from an NTCC Preacher:
"God called Reverand Davis to Washington when there was almost nothing there and God built a city around the church"
Kind of far out, don't you think?
BTW thanks for the Pagent pics. I don't have any gripes about these as long as they do not distract from the message of sin, Jesus, and deliverance.
It bothers me when people use the Church for other things it was not intended for.
Promotions are fine, get the numbers up, but the main focus should still be Salvation.
Off the Subject: I actually had some good, no GREAT times living in the Servicemen's homes. To the Pure, all things are Pure.
But, then I ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil and my eyes were opened
Bro Johnson
No comments sitting in the dashboard or in the spam folder. I think everything has made it through.
Jeff
Congratulations BTW on the Sgt Audie Murphy Club... but didn't eh end up a Lt?
Actually, yes, he received a Battlefield commission to LT.
He actually finally retired as a Major. Could have made General easily had he stayed in.
The Current wearer of the MOH is getting out as well, had he stayed in, he would have been set for Army life, but Hollywood obviously is calling. Good for him, he did his time. Soon it will be time to do mine!
Bro Johnson
Actually Mr. Briggs, I run a multi-million dollar construction business...and the people who prefer cash are ALWAYS the crooks. If its cash it will be hidden. I prefer to get a check so I am not tempted. People have asked us if we can do the job cheaper for cash payment, we say "no"
TB
Guess I'm a crook.. cuz I've always liked me some cold hard cash... never write checks.. and I hate to use plastic.... but then again there is always a paper trail too... but it's good you know your weakness!
theres no reason in this day and age to use cash only.
you don't have to write a check.
anyone can use paypal to make transactions that allow a buyer / seller to use echecks, credit and debit cards.
there is even a way to buy / sell via paypal with the cellphone.
so, cash only, is not really needed these days
the only people that need to use cash only are those who want to live "off the grid" as much as possible.
"For the love of money is the root of ALL EVIL: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the FAITH, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." I Tim. 6:10
Rev. Briggs
Your message portrayed throughout your videos on you tube were absolutely beautiful and touching. 100% inspiring, I see a man with a heart for the people. I see real people in a real world working together to face struggles and fight the good fight of faith.
I love your music it reaches the people of today, its not behind in culture. I don't see these people being shoved into a mold or being told to fit into a cookie cutter. This is altogether refreshing! I have no doubt that you have experienced the liberty every minster in NTCC should have.
Rev. Olson told my husband after we talked to him about our concerns that we had liberty to run the church as God and my husband saw fit. We were told we had liberty. We took Rev. Olson's word for it and began to make changes and make things more workable for the town we are in and music more relevant for the people. It was such a blessing and was a fit change.
My heart had changed a lot throughout the years in the way I looked at people and my judgments and preconceived notions of things.
Sometimes I really wish things could have been different as far as our ministry went but when it came down to it my decision really felt forced for the sake of my own sanity. I couldn't understand mistreatment by my own brethren and already having mental issues it kind of drove me over the edge.
I feel it was because I tried too hard to figure out what I could have done wrong and leaned to my own understanding but I just couldn't do anything right. I was doomed if I did and doomed if I didn't. I couldn't do anything right to please people I constantly tried to make peace with them and found them finding fault with people who they did the same things as or worse.
Things just eventually became to heavy and I ended up in a respite facility for 2 months trying to get my head put back on so I could be OK. I felt like I had lost everything and I was given Doctors orders not to go back to my own church I spiritually lost everything that was the most important to me it felt.
Our church meant more to me than anything I have ever had, it meant more to me than my own life. Obviously I am having hard time letting go because it has been a little while about 7 months. I am thankful to my husband in supporting me and part of the reason why we left the org is because we felt unsupported.
They never gave a solution to fixing the major problem we had in Pendelton and left us without a remedy. I wish things could have been different but God is with me. I was tremendously close to Sister Ashmore and Sister Tieman before I left, they both called me during my treatment in respite even though I was an emotional basketcase but they didn't have the power to change my situation.
I hope somehow they could know I still love them. I feel they might think I changed my number because of them. I actually changed my number because I had someone who used to go to my church who called and started manipulating and harassing me after I had tried to help them and I mentally couldn't take it so I changed my number. Anyways thank you for listening. I am so happy that you can have liberty within NTCC. I was at that point where I could too but it was short lived. Its so hard to say goodbye to Yesterday.
Sincerely Shonda Cannon PENDLETON OREGON
"Sure, but Pop was the one that brought Pastor Davis up to Washington to show him a piece of property that he had bought... and that piece of property became part of the school."
RW told us it was Ashmore who found the school property that he went up to look at. Pop only bought there after the location was secured. But maybe he told others another story; that's plausible.
"...sure you did... you moved out to an apartment you said so yourself."
How does that translate into disobedience? We were shocked when our actions were viewed as rebellious. Of course we had no clue that we were threatening a lucrative scheme that was still in its infancy. We just loved God and wanted to be better stewards. It wasn't like we were seeking to start an Animal House frat club; in fact, the place we found was so close to 2170 Forest that we could have hit it with a rock. We were thankful and excited not to be across town anymore. We thought that God was blessing us, and went to church rejoicing only to get both barrels. If RW is so in tune with God, and if his claim of reading us all like a book true, how come he didn't see the purity of our motives?
Anyone who wasn't devoted to the guy would have figured out that he was being bamboozled, but we just sucked it up and ignored the shabby treatment. It's amazing how much people will blind themselves and suck up abuse like a sponge when they are subjected to mind control. We did it for years, and even in the wake of the disturbing revelations about the NTCC leadership, people still insist on living in denial and hand over their cash, labors, and time. It really does take a move of God to cut through all that.
I don't hate you, Robert, and I'd like to see you out from bondage. Maybe if you open your mind to what you have always considered unthinkable (leaving), you might get a revelation. It's really not the voice of Satan that you're resisting.
"And BTW I talked with an overseer about the very subect, two of them infact. Both of which are still with us, and highly regarded. Both of them sat in leadership above leaders, and above the leaders leaders if you know what I mean."
Why should we care what some overseer thinks? I'm talking about what the "apostle," the man who can't remember the last time he sinned and has never missed God and who does everything by the Holy Ghost, taught in church and in class.
Hey, I agree with the overseers and you, but that isn't the point. There was a day when that kind of independent thinking wouldn't have been tolerated from anyone except Pop Gaylord. RW had all kinds of kooky doctrines, and didn't hesitate to publicly humiliate anyone who disagreed. But I guess he's basically out of the picture now, and people just do what they think is right. I'm all for that, but if you're going to disregard his explicit teachings, then you should acknowledge that he's not all he's cracked himself up to be.
Shonda said:
"Our church meant more to me than anything I have ever had, it meant more to me than my own life. Obviously I am having hard time letting go because it has been a little while about 7 months. I am thankful to my husband in supporting me and part of the reason why we left the org is because we felt unsupported.
They never gave a solution to fixing the major problem we had..."
This story just makes my heart hurt because it is so similar to the stories of others over the years who had devoted all their heart and soul to NTCC and its "program" only to be left on the side of the road like the man among thieves:
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
The religious elders, who received the tithe of the people and had access to resources, did nothing to help the man. The Samaritan, ("a sinner") helped the man with his own hard earned money because he had compassion and Jesus said that shows true Love of God.
NTCC does not only ignore those in need, rather NTCC has a policy of not providing compassion to those who need it. It is written in the doctrinal statement under tithe.
NTCC has a policy of payment of tithe to them is required to entry into God's heaven.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
It just ain't Biblical.
It just ain't like Jesus.
Caesar
RB said...
Guess I'm a crook.. cuz I've always liked me some cold hard cash...
Jeff said...
Liking cash and "requiring" it are two totally different things".
Once again, "come on Sir". Ha, ha. You understand the difference Pastor Briggs. You like cash and RWD makes people pay in cash. Huge difference. He is a crook.
Jeff
"Silver and gold have I none..." Peter said. According to your belief surely Peter and John would have been "commanding everyone to pay a tenth of their money to their ministry" but yet they described to the cripple that they didn't have any coins. But what they really did have was the power of God working in their lives!!!
RB
After re-reading my statement and your response, I have to say that I was not intending to identify anyone who deals in cash as 'crooked'. However, it is my experience that normal, hard working people want and require a paper trail of where there money goes. It happens a few times a year: someone will call requesting an estimate from us with a question- "how much less will it be if I pay in cash?" Suggesting that we could 'hide' the transaction of cash for services. The Mafia only deal in cash, in fact there is a well known restaurant in the North end of Boston that we eat at once a year or so and they only take cash. Everyone knows why...
Let me ask the question without overtones of personal accusation- Did (and does) NTCC furnish you with a written year end tax document with all of your tithes and offerings recorded on it? When you rented from NTCC did you receive a tax form or document with all of the years payments made to NTCC.
If the answer to these questions is NO then you would have to admit that the NTCC is looking pretty corrupt.
Many Christians can and do justify sin, particularly in the area of finances. A "man of God" however, must be above reproach, beyond any type of accusation. Do you see NTCC as above reproach. We have heard testimony of various examples-
1. Kekel receiving land from the organization- Land that was purchased with tithes and offerings
2. All cash transactions, no paper trail
3. NTCC construction workers being told to lie to city officials about various facilities
4. Kekel now owning another house in St.Louis, where is he getting the money to purchase these homes?
5. lack of financial disclosure from all leaders of NTCC, I personally have asked Kekel to disclose his personal earnings records to alleviate the appearance of evil- he refuses.
6. The audacious dwellings of the leaders. You have to be emotionally manipulated to not see the incredible audacity of these men to rub it in your faces with their multi-million dollar homes, expensive cars and furnishings. Not to mention the hypocritical dealings of the Kekels with there beloved son, Grant. You are paying for that boy to have a very fine secular education RB, I hope these issues add some clarity to our conversation.
Sincerely,
TB
RB
you said:
"Even though we are a church, the properties that people live on minus maybe the actual singles dorms I don't know - are not church owned and therefore taxable as income for the owner and/or corporation."
That is my point exactly, where is the money coming from to purchase all of these properties? Are you suggesting that these leaders were all independently wealthy? Or....are they taking money donated to "God's work" and accumulating it for there own personal wealth? man....the more I hear the worse this gets, these guys are wolves and don't ever bother with much 'sheep clothing', Mr. Briggs, I respect you for what you do and have done, obviously without guile. But, you need to open your eyes to these hucksters and thieves, your better than that!
TB
Ok.. let me first thank you guys for a more direct and honest debate. I will do my best to answer in order the various new things said by people.
First Vic...
I appreciate that you want me out form "bondage" but please remember I do not feel bound. I have liberty. Maybe it's because things have changed. I have gone on record years ago as saying "I" believe pastor Davis holds the office of an Apostle. THAT DOES NOT mean an apostle can not be wrong. Look at Peter for an example of a failure even AFTER teh day of Pentecost. But the church did not strip him of honor because of his need for growth. Paul was very harsh and critcal in his opinions as seen in his handling of John Mark and the contention with his companion and fellow laborer Barnabas was so harsh they parted company. Yet later in life he showed a change of heart concerning John Mark and he sent for him to come... where before he had no use for him.
People change, and people grow. I have, you have, and Pastor has.
Always remember.. love thinketh no evil... love covers a multitude of iniquity... love vaunteth not itself.. is not puffed up.. is not easily provoked... beareth all things.. believeth all things... hopeth all things.. endureth all things... Love (charity) never faileth.
I love him, I don't worship him. I love him, I don't always agree with him.
Do you see a little of what I am trying to say?
Jeff... Yes, I know the difference. I was being humorus. I just don't see him as money hungry. You fail to understand because you have no way of knowing the many hundreds of dollars he has given to me, and my wife, and other ministers in my church pastorates over the years.
Now, I know you will probably say "He was just manipulating you" but I reject that.
In 20+ years of pastoral ministry I have NEVER had him accept an offering that I took up for him when he came... EVER. After giving him the offering, of which he was entitled, he would give it back to me.. or ask me how Rev. so and so was doing and give it to him... and a couple of times he went straight to my wife and gave the money to her.
That to me is not the actions of a money grubber.
TB said...
Let me ask the question without overtones of personal accusation- Did (and does) NTCC furnish you with a written year end tax document with all of your tithes and offerings recorded on it?
Jeff said...
I can answer that. Upon my request, the NTCC did provide me with a slip which indicated how much tithe was paid to the organization so I could include it with my itemized tax deductions. Now I'll tell you something else. Pastor Mayers said that we should pay tithe on our tax return. Needless to say we didn't. I paid tithe on my gross income so I wasn't going to pay tithe on the same money twice. That is not the only time I heard of that happening in the NTCC. The tithe slip was only provided because I asked for it and because I owned a house which allowed me to itemize. If you used the standard deduction you'd never need it and therefor the NTCC would never have to provide it.
My point being is that if the NTCC is doing things underhanded according to the tax codes, providing a few slips to a few home owners wouldn't uncover a bunch of unclaimed cash.
The bottom line is accepting only cash creates the appearance of evil and I can't tell you how many times I heard that one preached. The NTCC leadership on the other hand ignored that verse of scripture every time it benefited them.
Jeff
Sister Cannon....
I had no idea that happend to you. I feel so happy you have recovered and found peace. Great is the faithfulness of our God.
Having said that I would challenge you to find a book by C.H. Suprgeon called "Lectures to my Students" and read his lectures on "The Preacher and his Fainting Fits"... did you know he suffered greatly from depression and sadness. All through his ministry. Yet it was increased by his wife's hatred for the ministry and the tiem it took him to perform. What a terrible hell it must have been for him.
I have spoken to Pastor, and other board members on various different occasions about my ever increasing opion that people fresh from school should not go out to "Start" or even "assume" pastorates accept under the most stringent of conditions. But of course I am not in a position to make policy... I am however in a postion to make suggestions. And I feel it is my responsibility as a Pastor in our organization, a Member of NTCC universal, and father of children someday to grow up and leave home and hopefully serve God, that I can not keep my opinion always to myself.
But, like my wife, I can give my opinion and reasons and then I must defer to the decission of the one who has the ultimate responsibility. I don't have to fight and scream and holler if I don't get my way. The man will have to give an account so let him give an account for his decissions knowing they are his decissions.
Those women you spoke of I am positive still love you and are always open to a call from you to verify the same.
I appreciate your kind words about the video's and church. That was why we began to make them.. a picture says a thousand words. We have been blessed with some extremely talented, and energetic young people that help create a lot of what you see.
The truth is, and I have said this to my leaders, the organization really only exists when we attend conference or have a fellowship meeting. All the rest of the time it is a local church, dealing with local people. Trying to solve local problems.
I can not change what Preachers X,Y,or Z do. I can't make them be godly leaders... I can only make myself do the best that I can. I can influence and educate the people that I reach and try to instill in them a firm understanding of what I have come to realize. And then, when they go on in the ministry, should that be God's and their plan, I hope they remember the example that I have set and apply these same principles to an even greater success.
I hope you can find peace always. I pray you and your husband continue on in whatever capacity God has for your life. The ministry is more then the pastorate. In fact, the Pastorate is not something I would wish upon anyone but those most assuradly called. It can be the sweetest bitter life anyone could ever imagine.
I hope you guys will frequent my blog. Take time to listen to sermon or two if you want.. give me some feedback it's the only way I can see myself and improve.
God bless and keep you.
Bro. Briggs
RB said...
I just don't see him as money hungry.
Jeff said...
Then why did he say he prayed to become a millionaire vs every other prayer he could have thrown up before the throne room? Crumbs from the table Sir, crumbs from the table. It's a front. RWD gave my little boy a few dollars one time. I gave the NTCC tens of thousands. And? That is chump change to RWD. It's call paying a little to get a lot. Too many stories have been told of too many crooked occurrences for me to trust the intent of R.W. Davis.
This one lady reported that RWD gave her money when ever he went over to have sex with her. It's called buying someone off. Look on Don and Anges blog under the Gay thread. You'll find the message posted there. I listened to him in conference and I don't trust the dude. He said if you aren't holding 5 services a week don't call Graham if you are short on money. I don't agree with that and I never will and I can't be convinced to feel otherwise. You don't hold extra services just so you can get more money and holding extra services shouldn't translate directly into more money comming in. Where does it say in the bible that you have to take up an offering every time you preach about Jesus?
Jeff
"I appreciate that you want me out form "bondage" but please remember I do not feel bound. I have liberty. Maybe it's because things have changed."
We've all been taught not to go by feelings. It is apparent that you're not as bound as we once were, but as far as change, Mike vigorously denied that any change had occurred, and rejected my suggestion that he should try to function as an agent of change. It can't be both ways.
"Yet later in life he showed a change of heart concerning John Mark and he sent for him to come... where before he had no use for him."
Who has RW "sent for" after they've parted company? Instead, he rakes them over the coals from the pulpit. And many who have parted company did so because he ran them off himself over paranoia and false suspicion.
"People change, and people grow. I have, you have, and Pastor has."
Well, I hope we all have, but real repentance always involves an acknowledgment of wrongdoing. These guys insist that none of the things they did were ever wrong to start with. I'll believe in this alleged change as soon as they publicly come clean, and I don't mean with a generic boilerplate "if I've offended you I'm sorry" statement.
"Always remember.. love thinketh no evil... love covers a multitude of iniquity... love vaunteth not itself.. is not puffed up.. is not easily provoked... beareth all things.. believeth all things... hopeth all things.. endureth all things... Love (charity) never faileth."
I guess it's a one way street there, because once you're in their sights, they'll see plenty of evil in you--even if they have to imagine it.
"Do you see a little of what I am trying to say?"
I do, and I hope you understand that I mean you no malice. And I promise you that our former disagreement was one of interpretation, because I still maintain that I never agreed with you to stop posting on FACTnet, although I do believe that you think I did. We misunderstood each other; fair enough? No hard feelings from me.
"Pastor Mayers said that we should pay tithe on our tax return. Needless to say we didn't."
I heard with my own ears RW tell a brother that. The intent probably was to keep below the radar with the IRS. If there were thousands of taxpayers claiming deductions to NTCC, they might want to take a closer look at where all that money might have gone.
TB...
Thank you for the re-examination of our postings and your clarification.
Does NTCC furnish me with disclosure statments of my payments - no but they would. I don't need them becuase
1) I pay with a check my personal tithe and offering.
See personal checks can be used, but if you bounce one EVER you can never use them again.
Also as a full time pastor most of my tithe is paid in the form of Pastor's Tithe which is kept in a financial ledger. I can do the figures myself (or as Jethro Bowdeen would say...my cypherin')
2. I furnish everone in my church that requests a copy of their paymetns one. I used to print one for everyone in the church and 3/4 of them didn't want them. So I tell them yearly if they want one just talk to the brothers in the office. Some do, some don't.
3. I can not control every pastor and their church administration. I have had church budget meetings to show the total income and out-go. But if like one person said on another thread you want to start getting into what I get and how I spend my personal finances then we need to do the same for everyone in the church (the servant is not above the master) and I know my church members are not willing to do that. So General information is enough.
Changes occur slowly. But as more and more changes occur the larger the effects become.
Pastor told us... long before the split happened... major changes were coming and some of the older people were not going to like them. He had us all read "Who moved my cheese" to help us understand what was on the way. I didn't just read it I digested it. Maybe that's why I am not shocked by changes... I like changes when they are for the better. I am not in favor of change for hte sake of change however.
I do not feel manipulated looking at my leaders homes.. I feel hopeful that someday I too will be blessed in such a way. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. But I can garuntee if I ever am this same accusation will be leveled at me. You would have to be honest and acknowledge that some people have pure motives in ponting this out (about the houses I mean) and some are tremendously jealous as well.
I think men Like John Hagee have far more to answer for. But that's neither here or there realy.
On the land grant deal I believe it was the way it was presented to be. I also believe it was a collossal lack of judgment and foresight. But since I believe it was personally bought with personal funds, legally transfered into and out of the organization, I am not willing to break fellowship over it as long as something of it's like is never done again. Which I doubt it ever will.
The biggest failure I believe we have had, or at least one of them, is simply this...
we are taught in PT that we should never be the first in fashion and never be the last out of fashion.... I think this also apply's to technology. We have been way to slow in harnessing the power of the internet and/or grasping it's abilities. I know of sights right now where I can post an email address and find out everything about you that is out there in cyber space. Where you live, how much you paid for your house. School your children attend... EVERYTHING... it is scary to say the least. WE CAN NOT AFFORD as an organization, or as simple individual people to slumber any long in this area. Look at what the internet helped accomplish in Lybia, Egypt, Tunishia, Oman... and that is just the start.
Anyway... I know I haven't covered all of your points but the ones I felt pertinent to me I did. I hope this gives some clarity.
"This story just makes my heart hurt because it is so similar to the stories of others over the years who had devoted all their heart and soul to NTCC and its "program" only to be left on the side of the road like the man among thieves:"
Funny you should put it that way. Just last night, I was thinking about something Phil Kinson told me when I was in BS in St. Louis. According to Phil, RW was driving him around in his truck when he pulled over and told him to get all the empty bottles and other trash out of the truck and throw it out, right there on the shoulder. Initially I questioned that it even happened, but he was adamant and even justified it just because it was the "apostle" doing the littering (which is illegal). Anyway, I was thinking last night about how RW does the same to people all the time. Once he's sucked out as much of the content of their lives as he can, he just pitches them away like an empty Coke bottle. And here's a famous statement he used to make: "I refuse to pastor somebody who won't pay me tithe."
Sounds like a hireling to me.
JEFF said
Pastor Mayers said that we should pay tithe on our tax return
RB Said
I believe the brother can be sincere in this answer to you but I feel he is sincerely wrong.
I teach the people who come to me with this same question this.
If you have been a tithe payer thgroughout the whole year you owe no tithe on your tax return. It is money being retured to you from checks already tithed on. It is not an increase becasue the government returns to you the OVER taxed amount. You are not getting free money, it is your money to begin with. Most accountants tell you it's better to file in such a way that you get little or no return at all. But most people see their return as a type of savings account. In any case it is not an increase in traditional sense because you shouldn't have had to pay the amount they took and so they give you back what is rightfully yours.
HOWEVER, if a person got saved during a year, or stopped paying tithe for a portion of the year. I believe they should pay tithe on their tax return but I ALWAYS tell the people the choice belongs with them and they need to pray and decide what they believe God wants from them.
Ceasar... in all fairness I don't read where Sister Cannon said their major problem was "financial". It might have been, but unelss you are privy to something I am not your over reachign the information taht is given. In short your making an assumption, though you might feel it to be an educated guess. But THIS IS WHAT I believe the major problem with most people is to begin with. Assumptions which lead to their own opinions.
You seem to hold to scripture... that is good.... then remember to "judge not a nother man's servant, to his own master he stands or falls".
You see if I stay where I am, live my life, do my work, and follow God's will for my life I can influence even the biggest of organizations. It might take time, a lifetime in fact, but I can be done.
“I am only one, but I am one. I can't do everything, but I can do something. The something I ought to do, I can do. And by the grace of God, I will.”
- Edward Everett Hale
One more things on the "tax" issue. I don't think anyone in the church gives more then me (though this is off the top of my head) yet for the last 12 years at least when I've done my taxes I've done them itemized and standard deduction and I've always ended up filing the Standard deduction. The only acception has been when I have had a side business with addtional income and losses.
So, if this holds true across the board, Which I feel pretty confident it does... the question becomes MOOT...
RB,
I think your avoiding my questions...
TB
"I refuse to pastor someone who won't pay me a tenth of their income." You absolutely got that right. I heard one preacher say, "It's a business,"
o.k., that being said then if the congregation is paying you then they have a right to know that you are working for the church each day. When I go to my job and clock in then my boss wants me to work for him during those eight hours otherwise I could get fired.
If the congregation is paying the preacher they have a right to know what he does all day and if he is not performing, to fire him.
"I heard one preacher say, "It's a business"..."
No doubt he learned it in the conference where RW told that to us all. His proof? Jesus said "I must be about my Father's business."
Yeah, he actually said that. It's quite a stretch to use Jesus' statement about being active for God to justify transforming the church into a moneymaking enterprise seeking filthy lucre.
"... I'll tell you something else. Pastor Mayers said that we should pay tithe on our tax return."
had 6 NTCC pastors starting in the early '90s. they all preached against this.
"had 6 NTCC pastors starting in the early '90s. they all preached against this."
Against paying it, or against keeping it?
TB... if you read through my postings to you I answered all that I could... unless I missed something... most of what you've written has not been a question but stated as obervation. Give me specific questions.. one at a time would be nice and I will answer them as best I can.
REV. BRIGGS PART 1
REV BRIGGS
Thank you for your kind words. It has been tremendously hard on my husband too. Sometimes I feel bad and that it was my fault my husband had to walk away for a time from the ministry because of my mental illness but I knew he ultimately did it because he loved me. My husband understood in his heart and mind when he stepped down from the church that it was Gods church and he would take care of it.
This is the second church my husband has worked in where he kind of had to walk away without things going as he would have liked. My husband helped build a church with Rev. Lizarga in Lynnwood Washington. He had a heart to stay and continue working the church when the Lizarga's had to go back to Graham for Sister Lizarga to go through Bible school. My husband was told to come back to Graham to help in the ministry there and it was very hard on him because he felt it was Gods will for him to stay and keep working to build the church in Lynnwood.
Lets just say this isn't the first time that he felt he had to make a decision regarding the church he really didn't want to make. He ultimately made the decision to step down which he did a few months after I got out of respite because he loved me.
(It wasn't money that was the issue)
it was other things which I don't want to go into because I have been tempted to to get on here and rant about the ill will of others but know that would not be of God but my own carnal and fleshly desire for revenge which of course is not of God. Lets just say I have to bring that into subjection and pray for the people I feel hurt me.
We have been in Pendelton for a little over 7 years now. I have very much been wanting to get away from Pendelton because it is just a memory of pain but at the time I really have no clue what God has for my husband and I in regards to our future. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that my husband is called to preach. I actually miss and hunger for his preaching.
I get to hear him preach in a few weeks and can't wait :)
REV BRIGGS PART 2
While I was in respite I kept dreaming about this godly couple my husband and I had known many years while in Pendleton. God has used these people to greatly comfort my husband and I. Things have actually been hard for me with adjusting.
At the church we go to now there are doctrinal differences which have caused me many battles. I talked to the Pastor on numerous occasions and when I told him of my thoughts he to my surprise was very understanding and said he never wanted to change anything I believed. He was never like this is my church if you don't like it there is the door LOL. He actually told me he wanted my husband and I to voice all our concerns to him.
I asked him last week (the pastor of the church we are going to now)if because of being doctrinally different in some ways he minded my husbands preaching. He said he loved my husbands preaching and never felt put off by it. He told me that their congregation is full of people from every different kind of background.
He said in his church there are people who are conservative and even some who are a little more liberal minded. He doesn't let the liberal people rule the turf though but they are free as members in the body of Christ to be a part and voice there concerns.
Lets just say it has been a really different experience for me. Last week I actually wanted to talk to the Pastor and his wife about leaving and finding another church but the Holy Spirit convicted me and showed me that I was judging the Pastor and his church and being unjust.
I actually was not expecting God to convict me it was the farthest thing from my mind but when God spoke to me I did not want to resist it, since I yielded in this area to God my prayer life has been a lot better .
We have been open with the Pastor of the church we are in now about our beliefs, we our able to share them openly as God leads us with no problems. I guess here you are not condemned for not seeing something like someone else or having your own opinion or conviction.
In many ways it has been very different because I have been a member of NTCC since I gave my heart to Jesus at 16 but in many ways it has been a breath of fresh air. My husband and I have been able to minister to others in many ways and there are many opportunities for everyone in the church to minster as God leads them.
Everyone is a part in this church including the children. Every born again child of God can minister as the Lord leads him. The Montrah of the church is CHRIST NOTHING MORE NOTHING ELSE NOTHING LESS.
My husband and I have also been able to be involved in the church in different area's, we are a part of the praise and worship team. And I am teaching a Sunday School class and puppeteering. I love puppets someday I want to save up enough money to get one of those Jim Henson looking ones (they can run from $600-$1500 dollars! I just found a really cool vintage bird puppet on ebay yesterday :)
Anyways my husband is in the process of interviewing for a job in Ashland Oregon but we are still not sure what God would have us to do as far as Pendleton. I talked to my husband about taking an online college course so he could become an accredited minister and he said it sounded interesting but did not want to pursue it at this time.
I felt I couldn't take being in Pendleton anymore because of the pain. But in the last couple of weeks God has brought many people into my life to minister to and I feel like I have a ministry here. Thank you so much for being happy for me.
I have not found full peace yet but have been finding it step by step by trusting in Jesus. I am tremendously thankful for my wonderful supporting husband who I know loves me very much and my Pastor and his wife Marc and Wendy Mullins.
Thank you so much for your prayers and support
Shonda Cannon
Sister C.,
When I pastored in San Antonio we had some ladies that could sew and so I went to a Bible Bookstore and ordered a pattern for the type of puppet you are referring to. They took the pattern and created several different variations for a combined cost of about $200 and as you have mentioned had we bought them premade the price would have been staggering. If you can sew, or are willing to learn you just might be able to do the same thing up there... just a suggestion.
Thank you for your testimony. I will pray for you both in your decissions. Know you always have a friend in me. And if you guys ever come down this way, or anywhere I am, please contact me and come by and say Hi.
God bless you@
Sis Cannon said...
I really have no clue what God has for my husband and I in regards to our future.
Jeff said...
I know of your story Sister. You are being way to kind. The NTCC failed you. I know you don't want to say anything negative but I don't have any problem doing it. You got dogged like so many other ministers and ministers wives. You personally were treated very badly with complete disrespect and disregard for your feelings. One of the overseers is a complete JERK and he possess no compassion what so ever.
I appreciate your kindness and Pastor Briggs giving you an ear. Pastor Briggs has more compassion for people than his leaders do, I can assure you.
Stop being so hard on yourself Sister. Your leadership failed you miserably. The NTCC messes up the heads of a lot of people. It wasn't your fault. The NTCC leadership and there system does a lot of psychological damage to a lot of people and you were one of them.
Jeff
Vic... I read your post and you are right.. Rev. Ashmore found the property I stand corrected. But Pop had a major part in the influence of the decission.
I was amazed at all the hard work and sweat Rev. Arleen Bradeen did in turning that San Antonio church building from a smoking wreck,
(after that fire made the San Antonio church on Hot Wells unuseable), into a beautiful edifice that is enjoyed by pastors that came in after him! Then he went to St. Louis and worked on that building on Holly Hills. He did a whole lot of work on many buildings.
Just know this Sis Cannon. You've broken away from the NTCC and for you to ever get involved again could do more psychological damage to you than you ever need. Your Doctor told you to stay away from the NTCC and he told you that for a reason. He knew that the church is what messed you up. I talked to a gentleman last night who has been diagnosed with mental disorder as a result of his involvement with the NTCC. I talked to another man a few days ago has a similar medical problem which has been attributed to his involvement with the NTCC. The NTCC and their games has messed up peoples heads. I get phone call after phone call, all from different people reporting experiancing the same kind of mental disorders which their doctors all attribute to their involvement with the NTCC. This is not joke Sister. It's real. The NTCCs cult tactics really screw up the minds of many people.
Sister, stop blaming yourself and your husband. You guys are good folks who were a part of a bad organization who only has one focus and that was no longer you. The NTCC chews out and spits out their young. They are like the coach of a sporting team.
If you break you leg, they forget you ever existed. You wouldn't treat our kids that way would you? Would you bury your kid in the ground and go find another one because he broke his leg or had some mental problem? The NTCC would and they do it all the time because they say their ministers are their family. Brothers and Sisters right? To the NTCC you are an expendable asset. When they no longer need you they toss you out to the wolves. I can't stand them.
Jeff
Rev Briggs
That sounds like a great idea, I didn't know you could so something like that! I have a beautiful serger that my mother in law gave me its top notch.
Thanks so much for the kind words again they really comfort my heart its nice to have someone from my past who I can reach out to who is not skeptical of me and tries to understand.
Sincerely
Shonda Cannon
Anonymous said...
He did a whole lot of work on many buildings.
Jeff said...
And that is what makes him valuable to the NTCC. He can fix up their real estate investments. You'll know my take. What have you done for me lately. Oh nothing? There's the door!!!! More fresh meat to butcher.
Jeff
Jeff
Thank you so much for your compassion, I was angry and hurt by a lot of things but bringing things out the way that I am right now just feels right. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to come on here and express myself I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do so anywhere else. I have felt a lot of comfort and I believe being able to write these things on this blog has brought my heart some comfort.
Sincerely Shonda Cannon
Jeff
Sometimes I am tempted to go back to NTCC Jeff but I know that is no longer God will for my husband and I.
Discussing Dissociation part 1
Thoughts from a Trauma Therapist….
December 12, 2009
When You Know People who Want to Hurt You
Do you know people that truly want to hurt you?
Do you know people that are willing to hurt you on purpose?
Do you know people that would hurt you over and over, again and again?
Did this happen to you when you were a child?
Is this experience still happening for you as an adult?
.
What a scary concept.
What a horrifying way to grow up.
It’s one thing to know that you have been hurt by mean people.
It’s a completely different thing to know that there are people that want to hurt you on purpose. And that they’ll do it – and that they have done it. And that they’ll do it again and again and again. As many times as they can, whenever they can.
That’s a completely different concept than to say, “I got hurt once.”
For something to be a “one of” experience, it can be terrible, but it’s a one-of. It doesn’t have to happen again. It happened. It’s over. That’s it.
But to know that there are vicious, sadistic people in the world who want to hurt you, and to know that these people are so incredibly cruel that they want to hurt you many times… and they will hurt you every chance they have…
THAT is a completely different situation.
There is no safety in that situation. There is no reason to believe it won’t happen again. There is not end in sight, and there is no place to rest. You can’t let your guard down. You can’t relax. You can’t stop preparing for the next time. You can’t get away from it.
There is danger, insatiable danger. Life becomes equal with danger.
How very different it feels when the perpetrators are insatiable. How very exhausting it feels when you know that you might have gotten through it today, but they’ll do it again tomorrow, or the next day, or the next.
Repeated, ongoing, incessant danger, trauma, abuse, and neglect changes a person.
It changes their view of the world.
It changes their view of themselves.
When your reality is knowing that abuse will be there, that the abusers are not going away, that the abuse will continue, that the abuse will always continue – that abused person has to learn a new way of survival.
In order to get away from the abuse for awhile – which of course, is important, because if you can’t mentally or emotionally escape the presence of the abuse or its effects, it would be far too much – many survivors create other selves.
If you can’t separate the abuse from you, separate yourself from the abuse.
Create a self that knows nothing of the abuse. Create a self that doesn’t worry or stress that the abuse will be around the next turn, or that it will happen again later tonight. Create a self that can enjoy the now, the day, the work, the school, etc. Create a self that can think about academic things, logical things, creative things, fun things, everyday normal things. Create a self that can enjoy petting a cat or enjoy sipping a cup of tea or reading a book or dancing to the radio.
In the situations of chronic, unending abuse scenarios, a survivor with the ability to dissociate and to split into other personalities is tapping into an absolutely incredible psychological defense. It makes a place to go in your head and in your life-experience where you can feel safe. It makes a place where you can be far from danger. It makes a place where you can get through the day without having to worry about being hurt five minutes from now.
Discussing Dissociation part 2
I understand that creating this kind of separation from and denial of the abuse can, in the long run, become a troublesome issue when it becomes time to recognize the abuse in order to stop the abuse. But that point belongs in a different article.
At this point, I am just appreciating the value of being able to separate yourself from ongoing, repeated, unstoppable abuse (and the constant knowing of that abuse, and the constant fear of more abuse) by creating a place in your head that allows the abuse to be stopped.
This has been important. It has saved your sanity in many ways.
Living in constant fear, in constant worry, in constant dread, in constant hypervigilence of more pain and more abuse results in adding more and more problems to already existing problems. The body doesn’t do well under this kind of stress – medical illness increase, stomach issues increase, headaches increase, etc. When the body feels like it is constantly fighting for survival, it responds by secreting chemicals and hormones that it wouldn’t normally do if it felt safe. A body in constant fear is different from a body that feels safe.
Emotionally, the person who feels constant danger is going to have more depression, more anxiety, more self-injury, more extreme fear, more panic attacks, more mental health issues, etc.
Waiting in between blows has it own cost.
It doesn’t feel safe in these in between times. It feels on edge. It’s waiting. It’s wondering. It’s knowing it will happen again. It’s a long ways from feeling safe.
Having people in your life who want to and will hurt you over and over and over has affected you in more ways than you might realize.
It emphasizes, to me, the importance of learning what safety is, and what safety feels like.
It emphasizes how important it is to find someone in your life who doesn’t hurt you over and over.
It emphasizes how important it is to keep safe people safe – including both children and adults.
It emphasizes how important it is to not let anyone or anything interrupt your need to have someone genuinely be safe with you.
It also shows me how hard it is for DID survivors to believe that safety exists in the first place.
.
For Trauma Therapists:
As therapists, if we do nothing else, we need to provide a sense of safety for our clients.
We need to prove to our dissociative trauma clients that each time they show up in our presence, they will be safe.
We need to provide a consistent place of safety to counterbalance a life full of constant danger.
We need to be understanding, compassionate, patient, and gentle with their fears.
Sure, there is a place to confront and challenge, but do this in an atmosphere of safety. Make sure your clients know they will not be hurt, even if they are being confronted.
And if you meet a traumatized client who was able to feel safe with another therapist or another person, do NOT ruin or delete the sense of safety the survivor built with that other person. It is amazingly important that any sense of safety was built in the first place. That was not built easily, so respect the effort that went into that relationship. Don’t ever take that away from them.
Dissociative trauma survivors have not felt enough safety in their lives.
To destroy or damage or delete any sense of their safety causes them harm.
Build more safety for your clients – don’t take away what they had.
Safety is precious. The more, the better.
———-
By:
Kathy Broady LCSW
www.AbuseConsultants.com
www.SurvivorForum.com
read this online its good
Sister Shonda Cannon,
even though you have not said anything in anger against ntcc. their will be those in the church who will say otherwise since you came on this blog. sadly even to the point of lying about you. ignore them and cling on to what is good, true and pure.
Well if that is so.. THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT SAVED!
I know Pastor Davis said in times past that he knows of no one who left his organization who did not go into sin. He said it publicly over the pulpit at bible school.
I wonder if he and/or Pastor Kekel still preach and teach that.
RB, do you know if that is his teaching now, or has he changed that teaching?
Thanks for your participation here. It truly is refreshing.
Caesar
I will second that, your presence here Pastor Briggs is refreshing.
I will third that.
Jeff
You three brought a smile to my face thank you :) I think maybe I needed to post these things because I have always been the type of person who cares too much about what people think and I can really let that get in that way of what God thinks.
Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far and grace will lead me home
Thank you again and Hugs
LOL I forgot to put my name that comment above is me :)
Thank you too Caesar :)
Rev. Briggs I sent you an email, I looked on your website and found it hopefully. Hope this gives you insight into my situation
Bro Jeff,
I'm going to act now and ask for forgiveness later :)
I found a blog you did almost 2 years ago, and I asked myself, is this still relevant now?
Answer to self, it most certainly is!!
I cut and pasted this blog for all newbies to read, to include Sister Canon (praying for you as well, Sister!)
By Brother Jeff:
I Am Fairly Certain That I Have Figured Out Mike Kekel and the NTCC
Thread #16 I thought about this yesterday evening and I came to some legitimate realizations. Prior to yesterday evening, I have felt like Mr. Kekel was one of the biggest hypocrites that ever stepped behind a pulpit. Well I still feel that way but as I though about it, I can somewhat relate with him. He kind reminds me of a Islamic terrorist because he has been very patient, cunning, and quite calculated when it came to incorporating his NTCC change up / lighten the standards, compromise the rules scheme.
I realized last night that no other NTCC minister could have pulled of what Mike Kekel has managed to facilitate, quite effectively I might add.
You see I've concluded that Mike Kekel has never agreed with all the rules that RWD has mandated all along. The average person coming to the NTCC would have left the NTCC a long time ago "IF" they didn't agree with all the man made laws and rules that Mike Kekel has obviously never agreed with.
So why did Mike Kekel stick around an organization who's leaders have taught all these stringent rules about modesty, and not watching Video's, and you can't go here or you can't go there when it is obvious that Mike Kekel never agreed with that stuff?
The answer is clear. Once he managed to lock on to RWD's daughter years ago, it became apparent to Kekel that he didn't have to follow any rules that he didn't want to, and there was no way that he would be held accountable because of his relationship with RWD's daughter.
There are definite resemblances when you look at the leniency that RWD has shown his daughter and son in law, and the leniency that you see Eli the Priest showing his two sons in the book of 1Sa chapter 2.
Once again I would like to make clear that NO ONE else in the NTCC other than Kekel and his wife, could have gotten away with incorporating changes to so many of RWDs rules without any repercussions. Who in the NTCC is going to question Kekel? No one or they will get blacklisted.
Once again, Kekel realized that eventually, he not only wouldn't be required to follow the rules but he had enough influence to completely change the rules because of his obvious relationship with RWD's daughter and more importantly the inevitable promotions that he would get because of the continual nepotism that exists throughout NTCCs leadership.
And that folks, is exactly what Kekel has done. He has changed the rules that were considered sins that would send you to hell.
(((((END)))))
SO, one can deduce that life is good for Mike Kekel, Tanya, Grant, and RW Davis inside NTCC.
I cannot vouch for any other Pastor.
- Bro Johnson
Sister Shonda,
You are welcome and Please rest assured that God can and does lead people to leave NTCC and serve Him as He leads.
RB:
I understand that her situation was not necessarily the money and your point is well taken. I do not know all the details and I don't need to know them. I was reacting to the part where Shonda posted this:
"I am thankful to my husband in supporting me and part of the reason why we left the org is because we felt unsupported.
They never gave a solution to fixing the major problem we had in Pendelton and left us without a remedy."
My point is that NTCC requires payment of tithe from this couple for entry to heaven, supposedly a "Commandment received on the mount" yet when they need help, be it spiritual, mental, emotional, psychological, financial, or just a "neighbor" or a "friend", at that point in the tithe payers life, according to her comment, NTCC is unsupportive, without remedy and unable to provide any solution.
Like I said: That ain't Jesus!
Jesus never cast away any one who came to Him:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Many who have come to NTCC looking for God are gladly received at first, then have been cast away when they become unprofitable, or a "problem" or need a true non-judgmental friend.
RB, I said before that we are on the same side: we both preach Christ, and I have nothing against you. You have demonstrated a Christlike spirit on this blog for the short time I have been reading and I respect you for that. Honestly, I am astounded that you have not been reprimanded for posting on here and "having a Pepsi with the devil" if you know what I mean. :D
If NTCC is God's last great move on planet earth, then to NTCC I must state:
Sir, we would see Jesus.
Beloved bloggers....
Dec 17, 1977 - North St. Louis Church, I preached a "so-called" "fellowship" meeting in which RW attended. My sermon was about the "Sensational" "Violence WAY" (of the Kingdom) etc... after this RW said from HIS pulpit the next service- "GOD DOES not call us to be SUCCESSFUL much less SENSATIONAL". Hmm... why did he say this? was this before he read Og Mandigo of John Maxwell?
RW SAID WE ARE NOT called to BE SUCCESSFUL. This was 1977. Come on people- I trump you all- I am the oldest blogger here to reach back to the 1970's of NTCC. I saw and been there, dudes! (beloved)
Has he changed hid philosophy since the 1970's? PROVE ME WRONG NOW!
Beloved- What year of RW are we follow? He did say he was the pope and like a Pope changes his edicts from year to year! and they contradict the earlier ones. I can hear POP Gaylord screaming from the grave- my beloved LEAVE NTCC. it has strayed too far from the BIBLE. He told us all NOT TO BE SUCCESSFUL in worldly terms!
What I found odd was also when he told us from the pulpit- he was now independently wealthy... from all the properties he owned) He used people on his way up the ladder of success(?) and then cut the off!
He told us once- the human body is one cell- I said- wait- don't we consist of many cells? he said no, we are one cell that keeps growing. He often said dumb things in front of many people to see who would challenge him. A few thinkers did and he was waiting for us.
Can I ask a question to you NTTC'ers- RW said rebuke not an elder means the pastor- if that was so- and Timothy WAS THE PASTOR PAUL WROTE TO- who in the WORLD WAS THE ELDER Paul told Timothy NOT to REBUKE? 1 Timothy 5:1
You see NTCC doctrine is to be obeyed not studied to discern. Like any personality CULT.
Hello Everyone,
We are definitely doing the conference countdown around here; it’s going to be a family reunion of the best kind. By now most of you should have received confirmation of your hospitality in the Seminary Dormitories or host’s homes; if not please contact my wife at 666-666-6666 or tanyakekel@whocares.com.
(Note: I removed T Kek's actual info, if somebody wants it they can Google it like I did!!)
We’ve had inquiries concerning the dress code for Conference so here it is:
Casual for the Morning Services and Workshops. Dress clothes for the evening service. If you have any other questions or concerns please feel free to call or e-mail.
Yours In His Service,
M C Kekel
Did anybody notice that Kekel did not specify exactly WHAT to wear at conference?
Looks like you can wear what you want now, I hope ALL the Ladies wear Pants!
Bro Johnson
Ceasar said:
"I know Pastor Davis said in times past that he knows of no one who left his organization who did not go into sin. He said it publicly over the pulpit at bible school."
This is typical NTCC brainwashing folks. It is TRUE...IF you fall prey to the deceitful doctrines that NTCC preaches. your taught that a woman wearing pants is sin..what is the first thing a woman does once God rescues her from the cult???? She will wear pants!!!! So RW can scream that she is in sin and loving the world...all based upon false doctrine! Another example: A brain washed brother is delivered by God from the cult and realizes he can wear shorts and not be in sin, someone from the cult sees him out with shorts on and rats him out to "pastor" who uses the man as an example of falling from grace and the "fact" that if he is wearing shorts he is surely drinking and fornicating!!
These are cult tactics 101, Davis is one of the biggest scoundrels (The root word means "to hide oneself",–noun
1.
an unprincipled, dishonorable person; villain.) who ever disgraced this great country.
I went for a week long trip to Graham in 96' to look into the Bible college. I was patronized from the pulpit by RW about how I was seeking after God. Fortunately, I was already saved and there were no NTCC churches in my area, so I attended a Calvary Chapel (one of the best decisions I ever made) When I met Davis face to face I knew he was a no good scoundrel, it is written all over his face, he wears pride like a crown. Personally I feel that young men who fall prey to him are typically guys who did not have a strong or moral fatherly presence and are swayed by his bold audacious, sinful pride. I mean what could be better? Going to heaven and having all the pride of an unsaved person! The best of both worlds! unfortunately, Gods kingdom does not allow for that methodology...to bad RW!! your going to pay in the after life!
TB
Ceasar asked
I know Pastor Davis said in times past that he knows of no one who left his organization who did not go into sin. He said it publicly over the pulpit at bible school.
I wonder if he and/or Pastor Kekel still preach and teach that.
I have not heard him make this statement in some years so I honest can not say. I do know for a fact that Rev. Kekel does not think that everyone that has ever left is a sinner. But I want you to look at the phrase as you wrote it. Which is exactly the way I remeber it by the way. it is not saying, to me anyway, that everyone that left is a sinner. But that he has not seen anyone that has left that did not eventually end up back in sin. But there is no way he or anyone else for that matter could know about every person.
I hope this helps some.
Sister Cannon, I will look at the email soon.. I just got home from church a little bit ago.. thanks.
And thank you all for your words.
Darwin said
Has he changed hid philosophy since the 1970's? PROVE ME WRONG NOW!
I SAY
I hope so... to think someone would remain totally the same after 40 years would be unthinkable. When we stop learning, we stop growing, when we stop growing we start dying.
I am not the same person I was last year let alone when I got saved, or when I entered my first pulpit.
Yes he has changed... I say for the better.
Darwin.. you might know what you are trying to say.. but from what you wrote I have a difficult time trying to put it together. Sorry, your post about Timothy was unclear to me.
RB,
It's just cool-aid...no really, it's only cool-aid...it won't hurt you!!
When you have to mention what "he didn't say" that is when you know you are drunk on the cool-aid man! I am sure the same type of statements were happening at the David Koresh compound..."he didn't say he was Jesus, he only said he was the messiah, which technically is ok, because Jesus was the messiah too and "Pastor David" is a second coming of messiah.....see the difference..."oh yeah, I see, can I have another glass of cool-aid?"
sorry for being a wise-guy, but your reasoning is a little ridiculous. When reasoning think about this: What exactly did he just say? not-well...he didn't....
TB
TB.. look you can think it ridiculous if you want.. that's your perogative.. but love thinketh no evil. I am not looking for fault and I am not going to sit back and let someone put words into his sentences that are not there. I didn't do it for Sis. Cannon above either and I proved to be right in my conclusion. A lesson you might well learn. You can't add a jot and tittle here and there to make a statement you want made... made... you have to work with what is given. And what he gave is exactly what I remember so why not point out the obvious... is that so wrong.. but hey, can you make sure my cool-aid is red or green!
Sometimes to know what a person did say you rule out what they did not say... it works really well in understanding the Bible too...
Sister Cannon
it did not come through.. write me at
pastor@ntccpasadenatx.org
Sorry
Hey RB,
I know I may sound like a wise guy, but that is not my intention...no offense intended, you seem like a nice guys...and for the record, my brother is in ntcc and we consider one another best of friends...though we do have it out about ntcc a lot! lol
as far as the bible goes, I have been teaching the Bible for 15 years and wanted to add that someone who is preaching 4-5 nights a week and working a job is not capable of proper Bible exegesis....it takes time to study the Bible carefully, I cannot do more than one well prepared lesson a week because I have a full-time job. These young guys who are preaching every night do not know the Bible, you don't learn the Bible in 3 years of "seminary", it takes years and years...(I am sure you would agree)These guys are getting ripped off of what they should be doing because ntcc just wants money and doesn't care about the sheep....amen??
TB
If RW Davis was MY father I would have left the nest for good
AND NEVER CAME BACK!!!
Bro Johnson
TB,
I personally know of an NTCC Pastor in Camp Humphries, Korea
His name is Joe Scrivens.
Who works FULL TIME as the Director of the Military Personnel Division (MPD).
How he pulled off that stunt I will never know but the guy gets to wear his "casual" work clothes and he is decked out in his suit everyday.
He does preach at night, guess if he was single he would have a hard time pulling this off.
He is one of the sincerest men in NTCC, but I never really got to know him personally outside of my professional dealings with him as the S1 NCOIC of a unit in Humphries.
Bro Johnson
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