I'm off for the weekend and I'm taking it easy. Has anyone noticed that the NTCC church locator is down on the NTCCs official website? It must not be too important to the NTCC leadership for people to be able to find an NTCC church. Their church locator has been down for a while now. The NTCC certainly has enough money to keep a website up and running if they want to. If the NTCC leadership wants something to work it will. Update: The locator is back up. I guess they wanted it to work. Well good, I can get in touch with NTCC pastors again when I want to and I can find out who's left and who's still around. On to another subject. Is there anyone out there who is into firearms? I am. My wife and I both have concealed carry licenses. We are living in a unlawful world. People are running around trying to hold folks up all the time. It's good to be prepared to protect yourself or your family in the event that your life is threatened.
I've already taken my boy to the indoor range. For a little fellow he shoots pretty good. My dad was a WWII veteran and he taught me to shoot at a fairly young age. Probably about the same age as my son when I taught him to shoot. We can shoot right on my property because I'm far enough out in the country and there aren't many houses around here. I was out there shooting one day when the pest control guy came. He didn't mind. He may have watched for a little bit. Anyway it's a fun hobby and a great means of self defense against seriously violent criminals. Home invasions are on the increase and you don't want to fall victim to someone who wants to rape and plunder while placing your life in jeopardy. It's something to keep in mind you NTCCers. I know for certain that one of your overseers carries a gun in his RV for protection. Nothing wrong with that. It's a smart more. So don't go getting so spiritual on me by saying, "I don't need a gun, God is my protection". You may want to tell your overseers that and see what kind of response you get. That's ok; if someone attacks you and your family all you have to do is hold your fingers up together in the sign of a cross. That will certainly run off a villain. How in the world did I get on this subject?
Jeff
354 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 354 of 354Hi Rev. Briggs its not going through with the address that you gave me maybe its not meant to be. I had about 13 pages.
Thanks Shonda Cannon
Sister I did get it and read it.. it's getting late but I will answer you tomorrow... God bless you!
TB.. I can say amen to the "it takes time to learn" but not the rest "sorry" I will say more in the mornign if you don't mind.
Hey Brother Johnson,
In no way do I question the sincerity of these men, I simply know from experience that it is not possible to preach properly (studying).
It is not the fault of the young preachers, this is what they are taught to do. They are deceived into believing they have enough Bible knowledge, most of which is simply ntcc opinion. They also discourage reading of any materials, devotionals or commentaries outside of ntcc (can you say CULT!) then they are sent out to work a full-time job and "have church" (another cult term) 5 nights a week. God help these guys, the only way to succeed in this terrible situation is to take on the character of a charlatan and emotionally deceive people. I can only imagine being a minister who has been stuck in ntcc for over twenty years and slowly you realize you have wasted your life, it must be very discouraging. Unless of course you find yourself in the good graces of the leadership, which can only happen if you have been cursed by God and choose to forfeit heaven for a lifetime of obnoxious wealth.
Lord please free my brother!!! amen
TB
"I have not seen anyone who left ntcc who hasn't went back into sin"-pastor
not a FAIR assessment! considering those in ntcc who have secretly hidden their sin for years. those who have left and not living in so-called sin are labeled as being hypocrites.
Jeff was talking about some "wild & crazy" people being in the Servicemen's Home, and I know we can all have our own particular idiosyncrasies. There was this one guy who would "literally" get on all fours and move around on the carpet with his forehead on the carpet pretending to be a vacuum cleaner!!! After he did that he would get up with carpet burn on his forehead!!!
TB Said
know I may sound like a wise guy, but that is not my intention...no offense intended
RB Said
I am not offended so don't worry... just allow me the right once in awhile to be a wise guy and we will be fine.
TB Said
as the bible goes, I have been teaching the Bible for 15 years and wanted to add that someone who is preaching 4-5 nights a week and working a job is not capable of proper Bible exegesis....
RB Said
You are right. It takes a long time to learn the Bible. A life time in fact. Having said that a seminary graduate is still more knowledgable then a church member by far. Working a full time job and preaching is difficult. I've done it many times. Which is one main reason why a preacher NEEDS to be full time ASAP. But keep in mind preaching, and teaching are two different animals. Preaching is emotion based fact presentation. Short, sweet, concise to the point. It reaches the heart of man. Teaching on the other hand is the in depth, grinding to powder the various books, doctrines, and theology of the Bible. This is where the majority of study becomes necessary. don't get me wrong. You kneed to know what you are preaching about. But noramlly a sermon is a 3 point message that is direct in its presentation. Most brand new, pioneer works do not start with a full service schedule because of sevarl factors - facility being one - price of the facility being the other. So they have time to grow into it. The only time I can think of where this might not be the case is if they go straight into an established church. But that is not the norm for most.
TB Said
These young guys who are preaching every night do not know the Bible,
RB Said
Your statement seems overly broad and judgmental to me seeing you can not possibly know what they "all" know. But I agree some probably are not learned enough.
TB Said
you don't learn the Bible in 3 years of "seminary", it takes years and years...(I am sure you would agree)
RB Said
Remember that these men and women have more then just the three years behind them. They have anywhere from 1 to X# of years in local churches before they go to school. I personally am a proponent of "let them be trained" approach. Meaning that I think they need to have time in a church working with a pastor that can actually teach them something to develop their true calling. BUT many of them will not be content doing this. They want instant pastorates... so they have to go and learn. Some fail.... some have limited success... some have great success... time being the determinate factor for most.
TB said
These guys are getting ripped off of what they should be doing because ntcc just wants money and doesn't care about the sheep....amen??
RB Said..
This is hard for me to follow in that I have a hard time understanding what you mean by being ripped off... and who do you mean as the ones being ripped off?
TB if NTCC is solely about money there are far better ways to use people to get it. The first of which is by putting the women on the the job (more tithe). The second being requireing every pastor to work. The amount of money my church even as an established, flourishing work, sends in to my organization is not much each year. And mine is larger then most. The vast majority of the works out there are so small the C/T that is sent in would be anywhere from 20 - 50 dollars for most I would estimate and it's hard to get rich and build mansions on that.
Anyway... I hope you are satisfied that I tried to asnwer your questions. If you want more clarification pleae let me know and I will do what I can. Also, email me I would love to know who your brother is.
TB
Mr. Briggs,
Sir, I would have to admit if fate dealt a different hand and you were ever my Pastor maybe my experience in NTCC would have been a more pleasant experience.
Who knows? I might even had stayed with NTCC. I still probably would have eventually left as I have disagreements with the current C.E.O.
I appreciate your points of view which add variety to this slice of blog life.
Bro Johnson
Bro. Johnson... I take that as a great compliment and I mean that sincerely. If you are ever in this area please feel free to look me up.
I have a question for you RB. You said in a previous comment that if someone was continuing to come to your church, and they were not paying a tenth to your church, then you can't think of any other reason that they would be there other than to sow discord. You just got through quoting in a previous comment that, "love thinketh no evil," but yet you are thinking evil of that person???
Furthermore if this is the way you really feel then you shouldn't hide it. Tell your congregation Sunday morning that for those of you who are not paying a tenth of your income, and you know who you are, I think you are here for none other purpose than to sow discord. That way everybody can REALLY know what you are REALLY thinking.
I think my last answer went to spam, but here it goes again.
Anon. My congregation knows exactly what I beleive on this issue as well as all others of importance. Many of my congregation read my writings here on this blog after all.
But when you cite what I've said you need to get it ALL because I made that statement with the following information "if someone has been saved for 20 years or so and they are still not paying their tithe why would they hang around that church? Two can not walk together unless they agree.
You need to understand that there are two important things here 1) as an individual christian dealing with other Chrsitians but not from a leadership stance - we forgive, forget, and move on. But we still have to take the advice of scripture do we not?
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
As a leader over a church, charged with protection of the flock of God I have to be vigilent, and aware that wolves come in sheeps clothing. I will not root them out unless they are OBVIOUSLY choking the flowers in God's garden. But that doesn't mean I don't wonder about his/her intent and keep a watchful eye until that intent is known. I think I would be an unfit pastor if I did not.
If you really want to know what I do or don't preach you either need to listen to my audio sermons or come to my church for awhile... then you will know for sure. Until then I understand that you view what I say with skepticism... but maybe Micheal Beal can jump in here sing he was in my church for several yeras. We might disagree on this doctrine he and I, but he can verify that I do make things like this Known to my church. I hope you don't expect that I rul down a list of "ALL THAT I BELIEVE" every time we gather... I would never get to preach.
O.k. Pastor Briggs I've got to run an errand but I do have your exact quote, and I should have it on here in about a couple of hours. Thank you for your intelligent and educational contributions to our knowledge through this blog. - MB
Rev. Briggs I wrote you another response to your letter but its having problems going through. Thank you so much for your compassion and your kind words its nice to know that you could relate to me an many area's with the situation my husband and I went through.
Sincerely Shonda
O.k. Robert here is the quote that I have a question about. It was posted on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 12:59PM under the "You Can't Be Serious" thread.
"But I also agree that if they don't trust it, and therefore don't give to it, they also should not attend it. And if they do, I cannot see any reason for staying short of their desire to "sow dischord."
Now, (for the record), I give to the ministry that I attend, just like Paul said to, as he purposeth in his heart. But based on your comment, those that would come to church and do not give or pay a tenth should not attend. "If we actually know that their reason for not giving, is that they do not trust this particular ministry," but we don't know because we cannot read people's minds and hearts.
If they do attend then, (according to your statement), you would think evil of them and conclude that their only reason for staying is their desire to "sow discord." Why would you think evil and be suspicious of this person?
You yourself recently quoted that "...love thinketh no evil." But you are ready to believe that this person, that doesnt give, is only motivated by his desire to "sow discord?" How can you presume this? Love thinketh no evil.
O.k. thats my question and "I'll hang up" and listen to your comment. --- with all civility and respect --- MB
Anonymous said...
"I have not seen anyone who left ntcc who hasn't went back into sin"-pastor
not a FAIR assessment! considering those in ntcc who have secretly hidden their sin for years. those who have left and not living in so-called sin are labeled as being hypocrites.
March 04, 2011 8:28 AM
I really like what was shared this was a nice way of putting it :)
Mike you need to be clear on something and that is that a person that remains without acting out in any way would be allowed to stay. Jesus himself said not to root up the tares for the sake of the wheat. However, if that person begins to subvert in an overt or covert way something eventually must be done. In a case I am thinking about a husband and wife had seperate incomes (her's from a source other then work). The husband did not tithe.. or once in awhile would Tip instead of tithe. That was his right. The wife however believed in tithing and would do her part in that regard. Would the husband leave well enough alone in this case? No, he kept picking at it "vexing" the wife over an issue that she was convinced was her God required obligation.
People hang around a church for a lot of reasons. But not all reason are of God. In my example earlier (not above) I spoke of someone being in a church for 20 years and still not taking part in this way... why wouldn't they... And in my experience after someone has been around that long when they still are not accepting of certain doctrines they are opposed to many others. Right or wrong as you see it.. we believe tithe is a biblical requirement and will preach it as such. We stand before God for this. But why would you want to tarry at a table that you feel the Lord has not prepared. Is our doctrine correct in all other areas accept this one so that you or any other person would like to attend because they have no better option?
In your case, with out going into specifics because I am not trying to blast you, there were numerous things you disagreed with us (the organization on) however you remained.. and would have remained but when your marriage ended you decided to leave. Would you have been thrown out No and I think you know that. I was very direct in talking with you and you made some very specific promises that you failed to keep over and over again. I still did not throw you out and I did not preach at you accept for one time and we both know what that was for.
Love thinketh no evil does not mean you are blined to the truth. It means you do not automatically ascribe evil intention to someones actions. Repetitive actions of a similar or same nature speak for themselves.
Thanks for the response Robert but you didn't answer my question (with all due respect). You said a person that doesn't give and doesn't trust his church you believe would only stay because of his desire to "sow discord." You made this as a general statement that could apply to anybody.
It is easy to just say things about me, anybody can do that. As far as leaving, you emailed me and told me not to come back. That is your choice. Knowing what I know now I wouldn't even attend your church unless I was paying the tenth.
I left the area because my wife divorsed me, otherwise I would still be there working. This is with ALL civility and respect. I have totally forgiven you. I have no "ax to grind" but do enjoy respectful and intelligent Bible study. As we continue to keep it civil Robert --- MB
Jeff did you just delete my comment? It was with all civility. Why would you delete a respectful civil comment? --- MB If you did not delete it I apologize. --- MB
You know, Jeff, I don't want to break the little lion king reunion, can you feel the love that briggs is trying to potray here. he is trying to sound that he is a rogue kind of a man maybe "that texus sun" has gotten to his eyes for way too long because he knows that if he would leave ntcc, he would be leaving God. That is the truth, and I don't care what so and so says. The minute that you step into an ntcc church, you are entering the will of God for your life. Specially if you go to their seminary because this means that you were "called of God" and the minute you leave this "call" you are forsaking your call and you are out of the will of God. That is what I was taught, and not for a minute think that they have changed this.
briggs wants to be a maverick but he better wake up. The only reason he is there in pasadena is to pay for that building but the minute they don't need him there he is out of there wherever he is sent, like it or not.
I've seen it many times when rwd will test certain people that he thinks are on their way out and he will try and help them to make a decision. He even said that if a married couple leave ntcc, that marriage will not suceed. If that pastor leaves the ntcc because of his wife he will loose her anyways.
I'm just stating what I was taught.
So please briggs stop coming here saying that you are different because you are not and will never be. You are what ntcc says you are .
blovd
Shonda,
I know it's hard to hear the words "I told you so", my last email to you was you'll find out sooner or later. I'm so glad you and your hubby have finally opened your eyes. I know when you were first having doubts about the leadership, that they would rush in to put salve on your wounds that they inflicted. You thought everything would go back to normal!? It may have seemed at first, but then later your hubby would be used as an example to others? How many ministers have ended up in the same position as you all have, to answer that there are hundreds to be exact. Why is that, we all have the same story? Why are we quickly thrown to the curb and in some cases thrown under the bus? Plus, hearing the leadership trying to destroy our testimony to the Church? Many of us have been sincere in our hearts. Yet, it was perceived that we were challenging authority. As long as you have a large number in your church and the money is going into the Org's coffers your doing fine. But struggle with a few people, you'll receive the call that your not doing enough or what's wrong with you.
You will find peace of mind, you will see how you've been judgmental of others. The Lord will convict you of having a pious attitude with others. I found myself thinking in this manner and the Lord humbled me. The Holy Spirit dealt with me, how I see others also finding fault with the preaching. It wasn’t up to my standards. It was such a liberating experience. Don't let the outside appearance keep you from receiving what God has for you. You can focus on what people are wearing, and miss the whole message of what God is trying to speak to your heart. You just worry about your self. If you feel uncomfortable about something don't do it, or wear it. Let the Lord deal with others and get involved with the program in your new church. People respect you more when you look at them and treat them with love. The church we attended while living in Rupert, Idaho; we were never asked why we dressed this way, and nor did I give off an attitude that I was better because of my holiness dress. Greg preached and I sang. We helped the pastors there as much as we could. It was very rewarding and Spirit of the Lord moved in our services. You may still have the mentality of trying to please the leadership. You have to get that out of your mind. You have to please God, he is the only one you have to account to. Celebrate in your new found freedom. You'll have to adjust to having more time! I think that's the hard part for people. But you can fill your time with other things. Perhaps you may have wanted to go to school but couldn't. You have so many options to choose from. I leave you with this one thing "YOU ARE NOT ALONE"!
Deborah Shunk
Beloved... I am not different you are absolutely right.. I am the same I have always been. Grown up yes, matured, fattened, greyed.. but the same heart and that will not change.
MB go ahead and write me at my personal email if you want I think Jeff might be taking a break as I want to be soon.
Yes, thank you Pastor Briggs. Do you think the "Rob..." email is best or the PasadenaNTCC email is best? But yes I'll plan on getting something out around Saturday night, which, will be very curtious, civil, and respectful. Thank you for that invitation. --- MB
either one will do.. the rob.. email is the best one as I check it more frequently.
"So please briggs stop coming here saying that you are different because you are not and will never be. You are what ntcc says you are"
judgmental?
ntcc can lead a person to have PTS Post Tramuatic Syndrome. Which can be attributed to Tramua a person goes through. Being in a relationship that is similar to a man beating a woman and they stay and keep making excuses for staying.
Alot of Mental damage occurs after being in a cult. And for some of that stayed stuck for many years!
already been diagnoised myself.
April
Hey ya'll, I just got back home. I found 4 messages in the spam folder. I can't stand this spam folder. There are no controls to stop it either. Not that I've found anyway. I haven't deleted any messages at all today so if it didn't come through, is wasn't anything that I did.
Also I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I think Pastor Briggs is a good guy however I don't want anyone to interpret that as me feeling endeared to the NTCC in any shape form or fashion. I can't stand the NTCC and Pastor Briggs hasn't changed that a bit. Just because I think he is a decent guy doesn't mean I agree with the NTCC programs which Pastor Briggs supports because I don't and he knows that. This is more the case of two men electing to act civil and with respect toward one another. I do respect Pastor Briggs as a person for a variety of reasons none of which have anything to do with his involvement with the NTCC.
I understand Pastor Briggs, not because I agree with him doctrinally (because I don't) but because I also used to be a part of the NTCC and I can relate with the man. I also respect him because he is not insecure. He is not so filled up with himself like so many other NTCC ministers that he can't be questioned.
Most NTCC ministers wouldn't even allow you to question them because they are insecure leaders. Pastor Briggs on the other hand engages in controversial discussions and he is not offended by them so it would certainly appear. That I can respect.
Once again that doesn't change the way I feel about the NTCC because I can't stand it and Pastor Briggs involvement on this blog doesn't change my feelings about the NTCC one bit. I wouldn't have anything to do with the NTCC anymore whether Pastor Briggs is a part of it or not. The NTCC is one seriously legalistic church which places entirely too many heavy burdens on it congregates.
Jeff
anonymous said...
"I have not seen anyone who left ntcc who hasn't went back into sin"-pastor
There was an exit survey?
Sister Shunk thank you so much your words were tremedously encourging to my husband and I. I have about 30 pages I have written to help me heal that I have only shared so far with Rev. Briggs and can share with you. To be honest with you I have been really hungry for fellowship and have actually thought of you and Rev. Shunk a lot.
I really appreciated your help before when I was trying to figure things out. I personally wish I would have left the first time we were thinking about it because it was just more salt in the wound to stay but God works all things together for the good for them that love the Lord.
I would love to get in touch with you here is my emial shondarcannon@gmail.com I have often thought of getting together to fellowship with you both. We are still lving in Pendleton Oregon and if I am not mistaken are not too far away from you. We would love to come see you :) My husband and I are hurt but trying not to be bitter, it would be nice to have someone to realte to in these things.
Rev. Briggs is the first one I have talked to since leaving. As you felt (especially you because you lost a blood sister ) I felt like I lost my entire family overnight after we left the org. Talking to Rev. Briggs made me feel like I was not alone and that I wasn't the only one who faced these struggles. His testimony on the torch suprizingly was close to our expereince when we were trying to break away. We were put on hold at the breaking point.
I would love to hear from you and relate on some things. I believe at this piont in our lives it would help us greatly.
All my Love Shonda Cannon
Here's a joke for everybody.
"Having just moved into his new office, a pompous new Colonel was sitting at his desk when an airman knocked on the door. Conscious of his new position, the Colonel quickly picked up the phone, told the airman to enter, then said into the phone,
"Yes General, I'll be seeing him this afternoon and I'll pass along your message. In the meantime, thank you for your good wishes, sir."
Feeling as though he had sufficiently impressed the young
enlisted man, he asked, "What do you want?" "Nothing
important, sir, "the airman replied, "I'm just here to hook up
your telephone."
This site is really dumb. I can't believe you folks have not moved on with your lives. Get over it and move on folks. Is this org really worth the effort you are putting into it?
~Stuck in the Middle~
shonda -
Call me. 307 286 2150
This site is really dumb. I can't believe you folks have not moved on with your lives. Get over it and move on folks. Is this org really worth the effort you are putting into it?
~Stuck in the Middle~
For some like this person DOES NOT GET IT! We do not come on this blog for ourselve's to get over it. To feel better,to get answers,ect. For me I come on here to help others avoid what I lived through. The horrible experience I had being stuck in a cult for 13 years. There is now way I would ever want anyone else to join ntcc. Either there a gentler,kinder ntcc now. A cult is a cult is a cult! No matter how they ooat it,underneath is still the intentions of controlling others and getting there money to fund there empire.
I am in your words OVER IT. as far as what they did to me. Not out for an apology because ntcc is to full of pride to ever do that. Redemption of the wasted money they took from us while we funded there so called churches. No,not ever going to see that money again.
I am here to toss out a life preserver to others that feel like that HAVE to stay in ntcc to stay in the Will of God. Not so! Or for those that get invited out,go online and find out the truth before they EVER get stuck in the first place. There is family members that know that something is not right with this Organization. You did get that right,there NOT a church! Just an Organization.
I was a Naieve Marine away from home. A home cooked meal,a home atmosphere pulled me in. First time away from home. they showed there"love" for me. Hook line and sinker got me. They will continue to prey on our military. Taking folks away from serving and protecting our country. I would have retired from the Marines if it had not been for ntcc. ntcc can not be reformed,but only gotten rid of in mhy opinion. I also do not think there is any good ntcc preacher. If they follow mike K. and the controlling tactics which they do HAVE To do to stay in good standing with the Organization. Then there part of the cult.
Moving on does not mean you do not think of others you left behind or others that come after you!!
April
Stuck in the Middle said:
This site is really dumb. I can't believe you folks have not moved on with your lives. Get over it and move on folks.
Hey Stuck, Whats a matter dude? Don't you just love the free flow of information? Don't just love the tools that allow people to speak their mind before a VOLUNTARY audience? Jeff doesn't even charge Tithe for us to read his "preaching" nor does he charge those who want testify of a True Story of Life in the NTCC. hehe
If NTCC is as Righteous as the leadership claims, then NTCC will only grow stronger from this "persecution". Yet if NTCC is a fabrication of a narcissistic, power hungry, dictatorial cult leader, then NTCC will fall like the rest.
Truly, God knows and in that fact we can put our trust.
Hey everyone in X-erville and RB,
We have been away for a while but not to worry, we are still in the game. We still dislike the ntcc as much as ever and are here to "spread our hate". I guess we'll never be able to "get on with our lives". We are like God in this aspect. We hate the ntcc, but we love the ntcc'rs. Well, most of them anyway.
The ones we don't like are the ones that are at the other end of vacuum with their fingers on the switches that control the suction.
The first position on the suction switch is marked with a "$". It sucks all the money out of your wallet. If they can suck up all your money, they accomplish two things. They get filthy rich and you are too broke to pay attention.
The second position on the switch is freedom. They suck every ounce of freedom from your life while telling you from the pulpit that you are free. It's not enough to come out from the world and be separate but you have to obey them without questioning their motives and if you do, it's open humiliation for you.
Let's not forget the life switch. They suck every bit of life out of you until you are a mind numbed robot not knowing why you are doing the things that they demand of you. You continue to waste all the years of your youth until you either realize that you are in a cult and you get out or you keep marching to the beat of the ntcc drum until you die.
I don't care what anybody says. Anyone who spends decades of their life in the ntcc and gets out, what happens to those decades that they have lost? Can they come back and live them over again? If Rev. Briggs was to leave the ntcc today, would not the decades he has spent in the ntcc be wasted time?
Attrition is defined as: "A gradual diminution in number or strength because of constant stress."
This is all that is accomplished in the ntcc. You can invite folks and get them saved, and living for God the ntcc way, but when less than one percent of the people who get saved stay saved.... Please tell me that God is able to keep more than one percent.
Don and Ange
This site is really dumb. I can't believe you folks have not moved on with your lives. Get over it and move on folks. Is this org really worth the effort you are putting into it?
We have moved on with our lives. In fact, I have never been as alive and free as I am know OUTSIDE of NTCC.
Lets flip the switch here. YOU need to get on with YOUR life and LEAVE NTCC. Your Leadership is really dumb, and your a fool for following them.
Is NTCC really worth the time and effort your putting into THEM?
Tell you what, check back on this blog in 10 or 20 years, you'll see who really wins in the end.
In fact, go ask Kekel why is he putting forth so much effort on HIS BLOG.
Your just jealous that we all have a life and you don't. Just leave NTCC. A Nike says, JUST DO IT!!
Bro Johnson
TB said ...
someone who is preaching 4-5 nights a week and working a job is not capable of proper Bible exegesis.
Kris said ...
I think the same thing. I would also add, any one who goes to any NTCC church will probably be severely deficient in most areas outside the doctrine of soteriology. There is more to teaching Christianity than salvation.
Heb 6:1,2 reads, "1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."
See, the problem as I see it is that NTCC has generally 4 SERVICES a week. These are typically for preaching the Gospel of salvation (repentance from dead works and of faith toward God).
One might ably argue that they are perpetually re-laying the foundations of Christ to babes in Christ. I would say this to RB: Although you have more time in the ministry than me, by virtue of the fact that you are still in the NTCC, I am confident that you are still a babe in Christ trying to lead other babes in Christ. You may preach a good wesleyan-arminian type of soteriology to defend the Gospel against calvinism, and for this I should commend you (if you are really able to do that well), but beyond that, if someone has any other legitimate questions or concerns, I am confident you will (like so many other poorly-educated wresters of the scripture among the NTCC hierarchy) resort to emotionalism and/ or preaching from the pulpit against people who don't agree with you to either run them off as enemies of the church because they "don't want to listen" or "they just want sin" or to try and strong-arm and intimidate them into complying with you whether you rightly divided the word of truth to them in a convincing way.
And this rightly dividing the word of truth, as TB so discreetly pointed out, comes from having time to perform proper exegesis from the scriptures.
You like many others in NTCC are victims of the 4-service schedule with 1 half hour a week of "Bible study" which usually consisted of the pastor reading verse-by-verse a passage from the Bible and "shooting from the hip" a little exegesis on it, because they have not had or made the time to properly study and find a very good interpretation of the scriptures and an accurate and truthful application to the congregation. This is probably due to what TB said, namely that they have to preach 4 times and work a full-time job.
Continued from last reply...
I think that in the ancient church new believers went through what they called catechism. I think today in the Roman Catholic Church this has been reduced to classes to learn about the formalities of that religion, but it was back then meant for young Christians to learn the principle doctrines of Christianity.
I don't expect Christian pastors to be Bible scholars and devote ALL their time to only studying, but from my experience at Graham, I hate to be critical, but the preachers there would do good to burn all their Monopoly boards and charades-type games that they play with each other. They are behaving like little kids, and please don't say that this is just because they are young preachers. Playing games isn't a sin, but as for me, I want to know my Bible and understand it and the Christian Church like more than a novice. Fellowship for me- as a minister with other ministers- consists usually of talking about God and the Bible and the Church. I don't have time for Monopoly and talking about the latest football contest (trying to sound sports-illiterate lol). If someone else is not in the MINISTRY and they have lots of hobbies, fine. If you are a man of the cloth, than you are supposed to know the Bible. If you don't know the Bible than get out of the ministry. If you have to call someone on the phone and ask them how to handle something over and over again, because you never learned how to be a pastor in Bible School, but you learned a lot about buying buildings... I'll just stop there.
That's probably a lot to consider. I really don't mean you any ill-will, but I get upset just thinking about how much time I wasted under the likes of Devonshire, Davis, and Kekel, etc. just hearing salvation messages week after week after week. You people need to feed people who are actively involved in the Church meat, and if you don't know how, perhaps you need to take leave of your occupation, read some books about Church history, like Eusebius History of the Church, then read some more modern ones, and get a proper balance. Read a book on Biblical Interpretation, study a little Greek (or a lot). Compare translations to the KJV like the NKJV and the English Majority Text Version. See why one says something different (hint: you will have to have some grasp of Greek eventually to really be able to do this well).
Kris..
First off aren't you the guy that started throwing chairs in a conference and you have the audacity to say our preachers are immature?
And do you really have so little understanding as to actually believe that preaching salvation is a bad thing?
As people over and over say we have a LOT of things going on, Tuesday Bible Study, Question and Answers sessions, Sunday School, or in some cases like here Advance Discipleship classes that that beyond the rudementary things of the gospel.
But I glory in the cross and always will. The message that the world needs is Christ and him Crucified and NOT soterology, Arminiansim, or any other thing. The church needs to keep the First Things First. Jesus said if I even I be lifted up I will draw men unto me... not Greek.
I can almost garuntee that I know more about my congregation and how to help them then you will ever about yours. You want limited church attendence so that YOU can have quality... and what of the people that need God on your off nights? What of the early church and their "hour" of prayer.
When the disciples, and apostles were "daily" disputing,and reasoning, and preaching, and teaching, where they unequipped?
No, I will keep my schedule. And my "unlearned" ways... didn't they say something in the books about the apostles being "unlearned and ignorant"... I think so.. yes, I think so
Anonymous said...
shonda -
Call me.
Sorry but I don't know who this is if you would like you can reach me at shondarcannon@gmail.com and let me know who you are thank you. I want to steer clear or being contentious I have no intention of getting bitter and trying to tear down anyone within or without NTCC and knowing who you are would help me to be careful in this area. This website has helped me to be able to reach out to people like Rev. Briggs and Sister Shunk whereas I would have had no other opportunity to do so.
Sincerely Shonda
TB said
They also discourage reading of any materials, devotionals or commentaries outside of ntcc
RB said
Sir, your are very much mistaken. We are told that "Leaders are Readers" and we are encouraged to read. I have volume after volume and have recently come to realize I need to keep things on computer becuase of the sheer size of my library. Go to my blog and look at the dozens of downloadable books and resources. Most of which are things leaders have recommended to me to read.
I love Beacon Commentary, Adam Clarke, of course Matthew Henry, the Expositor's Bible Commentary, many others..
Someone has lied to you... or you have drawn a very wrong assumption
I am confident that you are still a babe in Christ trying to lead other babes in Christ.
I personally think this is really harsh? Have you ever been under Rev. Briggs preaching? I happened to be in his classes in Bible school and he taught more than milk but got into meaty subjects. His classes were some of my favorite and most meaningful. Rev. Briggs shared with me how he has been humbled that he has had many of his members that were called into ministry this does not come from a Pastor who is just feeding his sheep milk. I just do not feel it is right to lump people into groups and put them in categories. God can deal with all people even with people in NTCC about how he would have them to preach and teach his word and many other area's. You may as well say all people in NTCC are ignorant fools. No disrespect Sir but we all came out of NTCC and God dealt with us, he can deal with Rev. Briggs and others.
Sincerely Shonda Cannon
Thank you Sister!
Pastor Briggs
none of your emails seemed to worked I sent you another one and it said it didn't go through.
Shonda Cannon
Rev Briggs said ...
First off aren't you the guy that started throwing chairs in a conference
No. I slammed ONE chair against the other chairs.
So, I guess we are even now. We have both made assumptions about one another that we both claim are inaccurate. I apologize for my mistake if you are really learning far beyond what you were taught at NTC Seminary and have changed your views about much that was taught at NTC Seminary. It is wonderful that you have broken away from the recommended Dake, who seems to be the only preacher outside of NTCC quoted by the leadership, because forgive the sarcasm, but the books you listed are not really encouraged by the likes of NTCC leadership.
You made a boo-boo I think. You said the church doesn't need soteriology or Arminianism. I can understand if you don't care about technical terminology, but soteriology is the doctrine of salvation, the same doctrine you just defended as crucial (which I agree- it is). Also, Arminianism was the answer to counter Calvinism. Calvinism is a soteriological (salvation) doctrine that excuses sin and teaches unconditional eternal security. The whole time you have been in NTCC, if you believe in their doctrine of salvation, you have been preaching and teaching a soteriological doctrine which is much more on the Wesleyan-arminian side.
You answered my presuppositions against you (and again I ask for your forgiveness for this) with yet another presupposition about me (besides the plurality of chairs incident). You said,
"And do you really have so little understanding as to actually believe that preaching salvation is a bad thing?
I don't hold it against you if you don't know what the technical terms that I used mean, but I think this is wherein lies the confusion in you thinking I think teaching salvation is bad. I will explain.
This is what I said in layman's terms (although I was speaking to a member of the clergy):
"You may preach a good wesleyan-arminian type of soteriology to defend the Gospel against calvinism, and for this I should commend you (if you are really able to do that well)
and by this I meant that I ought to COMMEND you if you can teach a good salvation doctrine that teaches that after you are saved you should be sanctified by the Holy Ghost and that you can give up your salvation if you choose to go back to a life of sin (wesleyan-arminian in a nutshell) to defend against the doctrine that excuses sin and says that once you are saved, you are always saved- if you can in fact do this well.
By saying this, it is inherent in my words that I never said it is bad to teach salvation, but my words were positive towards rightly teaching it. To be continued ...
Continued from last reply ...
Rev Briggs,
Please forgive my audacity. I will try to show you respect for your position as a pastor, but I am just trying to show you that the quality of instruction we received in theology is severely deficient. This is none of your fault, as so many of us were vamboozled. Maybe the example above will help you to realize this, although, as I said, I don't really mean it personally.
I agree that the church was busy breaking bread and sharing the word. However, according to "Introduction to Biblical Interpretation," Klein, Blomberg, and Hubbard say that the early Orthodox Christian Church "Fathers" canonized 27 books because they were consistent with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles; because of their catholicity (wide acceptance among the Catholic churches; and because they were useful for
1 Exhortation
2 Catechism (teaching the principles of Christianity to new believers
3 Defending against heresies
4 Worship
I believe that the early Church focused on feeding the sheep that were already saved with more than just salvation messages and a half hour bible study every 7 days, amounting to 26 hours of doctrinal instruction per year. I am happy that you seem to be breaking the mold.
You said...
"like here Advance Discipleship classes that that beyond the rudementary things of the gospel."
Call it what you want. If you are licensed within the NTCC, your teaching is supposed to originate in NTC Seminary, the same seminary that assigned me to read "Who Moved My Cheese," and "The Greatest Salesman Ever." I could go on with the simple secular booklist, but I will end there. To simply put it, I don't think NTCC has recently been doing a very good job preparing youth with truth, etc. Can you just imagine the early Church assigning a biography about a salesman to new converts or prospective bishops? or Paul cracking open a cute little book about mice during his time of learning the Gospel before he proclaimed it to the Gentiles?
Or Aaron and his sons in the temple learning the law so that they could rightly interpret it, and adding to their required reading of the Torah, "7 Steps to Debt-Free Prosperity."
Sir, please don't send any more of your converts to that school.
RB said...
First off aren't you the guy that started throwing chairs in a conference and you have the audacity to say our preachers are immature?
Jeff said...
Jesus started flipping tables in the temple so did that make Jesus immature? If so then there is nothing wrong with being immature. If not then Kris was justifiably angered by the NTCCs shenanigans which I regularly witnessed in conference myself. There should have been a whole lot more chair throwing in conference after all the garbage that I heard RWD the blow-hard spew out. That stuff angers me also so if Jesus showed his outburst of anger by flipping tables then there is nothing wrong with Kris slinging a few chairs. Come on RB, you must have forgotten about that passage.
Jeff
Kris said...
but the books you listed are not really encouraged by the likes of NTCC leadership.
RB Said
Kris, if it wasn't the leadership that recommended these books to me who was it?
And while we are on the subject of the early church, I would like to call your attention now to another portion of Acts 2, since you agree with me that the modern-day Church should emulate that version of the Church. I'm so happy that we agree on this, and I know that you know that our Bible can not be full of holes, but we should take it holistically.
In the same chapter you quoted from, we also read that the Church shared what they had with one another so that no one went without. I know that you have been taught that this was Peter's mistake and he foolishly was leading the Church into something synonymous with Communist Russia.
Now I'll give you what I believe is a more accurate interpretation. This theme of sharing monetarily was repeated throughout the New Testament under Paul's ministry. Please see 2 Cor chapters 8 and 9. Also the book of Acts tells us that Antioch took up a collection for the POOR saints in Jerusalem. Paul was told by James in John as recorded in Galatians 2 to "remember the poor." If you read a scholarly church history as opposed to a high school level version, you may discover that the ancient Roman church began to be a leader by example initially before it was a leader politically. This church was known for supplying physical needs to other churches.
I don't believe that the early Church having so soon been filled with the Holy Spirit went immediately into error by assuming a communal type of economy (sharing with one another), but this was actually the norm for real Christians. Throughout history there have been groups such as groups among the pre-reformation Lollards and Waldenses who made agreements that they should share what they had with one another and even have money in store to help the needy among them.
This is part of the reason that I slammed the chair at Conference. Rev. McDonald was preaching about how a young philipina woman was starving under his shepherding. And he was bragging that some people in NTCC are willing to give and give for their LEADERS and God.
I make this deduction because he said she only had enough money for one meal and she was going to use it to pick people up for church. Then he said it wasn't the first time she did that. "We almost lost her once."
This is a touching story on her behalf, and yes it is certainly commendable for her. But my question is WHY DID SHE ONLY HAVE ENOUGH MONEY FOR ONE MEAL WHEN PASTOR DAVIS HAS A MANSION??????
Yes, I slammed a chair. What of it? Call me up and let's talk about it, Rev. Briggs. 808-271-2772
And please, please use the excuse that it was all Denis' fault. I really hope you try to use that one. I have an answered loaded for that kind of response.
Jeff said ...
There should have been a whole lot more chair throwing in conference
Kris Said ...
Mr. Collins,
Wouldn't that be something if we started a tradition that NTCCers getting out would throw a chair at their last Conference just before their departure? Of course, this probably wouldn't happen as it is is an expense to go there. But maybe, just maybe, the Holy Spirit would start moving on people every Conference to fully realize how much this organization is not like the true Christian Church and then .... BANG! ANOTHER ONE! BANG! ANOTHER ONE!
That would be kind of hard to preach knowing you might get interrupted by some fed up Christian slinging a metal chair down. For anyone interested in slinging one but not quite sure because they might get arrested for hitting someone, just sit in the back. There was plenty of space for me to get a good swing and a loud BANG from where I was perhaps due to high attrition rates.
If it was the pattern for the church to follow Chris why did it stop? And why did it cause the death of Annanias and Saphira.. if that was a success I would hate to see failure.. Your right... a bunch of people how hate to be told to give 1/10th of what they are increased with should rather be told to give 100% of everything they have. That will be much better.
You surely would have had a problem with the widow woman giving her mite wouldn't you.. Why didn't Jesus rebuke the rich man for not giving to her instead of rebuking him for not giving more to the house of God... seems your theory has some flaws.
Your type is the type that thinks they know more.. the always learning never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. I could care LESS about the banttering back and forth about philisophical and religous dogma's and doctrines. People need God and the simplicity of the gospel. Not your Greek, Hebrew and Latin escatology. Be not wise in your own conceit...
Rev. Briggs,
Just to let you know:
Of course I teach salvation. This is the basic theological doctrine. I regularly converse with calvinists here in Hawaii convincing people of the good wholesome doctrine of salvation, the foundation of which was laid for me in NTCC, in fact. I have improved on my understanding of this which I believe is the true doctrine. I commend them for their strong stance on salvation, that a person must be born-again, must be sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and that he or she can give up their salvation by going back to a life of sin. By God's grace, I don't think I have waivered on this, and have studied to defend it more and more.
Although this may be contrary to some peoples' beliefs who have left, but not all, I still believe and practice what I believe is outward holiness. By God's grace, my wife practices this, too. I taught her about what I had been taught a woman should do and how she should dress, and I said that a woman should have long hair, and not wear make-up, at least in public. I figure if we are alone in the house and she wants to look pretty for me, then why not? Even Pastor Kekel made a statement that a woman should be able to dress however she wants in her own home.
I just want to clarify this with you in case you believe that everybody that leaves, just grows a beard (nothing wrong with that) and gets a case of beer and a tv set. I probably watch less movies than a lot of NTCCers. If I watch one, it's usually because there are little children, and we buy them a cartoon dvd. But I shut them off if they are not good cartoons. Occasionally my wife and I have watched a movie together on a date, but we agreed it has to be G-rated, which usually amounts to us watching cartoon movies, like UP or that owls movie. Recently I purchased some great Bible cartoon stories for my wife to share with the poor children in the Philippines when she- by God's grace/ thanks to God- feeds them a meal and shares the Bible with them either from a children's Bible or a cartoon Bible story.
So, I don't think I had a problem with outward holiness and not doing certain things. But I DO remember a lot of people at Graham walking up to me talking about sports, people inviting me to go watch sports on TV at restaurants, and an up and coming leader among the lay pastors inviting me over to his house to watch some comedians on the internet that were CURSING! The house they lived in was right next door to Pastor Davis' mansion. It was the single-man's house.
And what you were talking about- how there is all kinds of activities of teaching in the churches. From my experience, I have been a member or a preacher under three pastors at 2 different serviceman's homes. Granted, Devonshire taught a lot (a lot of the same old stuff, over and over and over). The others had one night a week questions and answers. Other than that, I remember those two talking a WHOLE lot about politics and not very much about the Bible, doctrines, missionary work, ministry, church history. I remember a lot of video games being played in one, and a whole lot of debating democrat/ republican politics in the other.
So, don't think it's the SPIRITUAL ones that STAY in the boat. There is plenty of carnality in NTCC. I know of another brother who told me very assuredly that he really left because he wanted something deeper. He is the one that opened my eyes to how silly the books we were assigned were.
See Jeff.. you keep on commending that kind of action and someone will end up getting hurt... there are some wacky people on both sides of this issue... and to be honest.. though I like you as a person I would hold you as partially to blame for inciting people... don't know if that matters to you or not but it sure does to me. There were small kids just ahead of this bozo when he was slinging in his rath... funny though, he sure high tailed it for the door quick.. Jesus might have done something towards the money changers but he did not put the people at risk. Moore didn't have the guts to get close to the people he felt were responsible so he stayed far removed and made a pitiful little show and ran out as quick as he could..
Look there are far too many people that go into the "ministry" period. I agree, but I don't brush hundreds of people with the same brush because of the actions of some. And I sure am not going to accept that somehow you have the only divine insight into God's plan for man and every other group on the face of the earth has got it wrong.
People stand or fall to their own masters. I am very stringent in my recommendaitons for school. But I cannot control what others do. It sounds to me like you had a case of the holier-then-thou's for a long time before you left. What part of "To their own master they stand or fall" didn't you get?
You obviously haven't had a congregation of people when you make statments liek he "taught the same old thing" because new people require basic teachings. Advanced people do need advanced theology which is what a class like "advance discipleship" is all about. But you can never convince me that people in a regular church environment need to get into the Greek, Latin, Aramaic, Hebrew, studies that I think you probably thrive on. Most don't need to get deep into Escatology, or Pneumatology, or Appologetics. If they get to the place where they need stuff of that level then they are probably already asking about going into the ministry. School (and I am nost just saying our school) is the answer for that. But the Status Que does not need it nor do they want it. And you will find that out when you've actually pastored something.
Theory's are fine until you start putting them to the test. You have a headful of theory, some small amount of application with your wife's family, but tell us of your congregation and how they fare? Do you have a following?
Until you do you can talk all you want about how to make disciples but that's all it is .... talk.
Wow Kris... lets thank God shall we for all the people like that "brother" that go around showing people how miserably they really are... even when those people don't think of themselves as miserable.... let encourage people to undermine authority, and subvert, and sow discord because that is exactly what the Lord told us to do. Let's read and teach others about how Jesus taught to "leave them alone" but lets not give heed to that in practice at all. Let's do just the contrary. Have closed door sessions and enlighten the unlearned. And then, when they join us in our dissatisfaction lets sit back and pat ourselves on the back and feel good about what we have done... after all it was in their own best interest.
rb said...
Moore didn't have the guts to get close to the people he felt were responsible so he stayed far removed and made a pitiful little show and ran out as quick as he could..
Liar. I walked out. Then I was chased by a big black man outside.
Ok.. you walked out.. why didn't you confront him Like Jesus did if your action was righteous?
It was immature and silly... that's what it was.. and therefore you have no room to throw stones.
When I had a problme I faced up to it and did what my Bible told me to do.. and you?
Pastor Briggs said...
See Jeff.. you keep on commending that kind of action and someone will end up getting hurt...
Jeff said....
Pastor Briggs, I know what you are saying and you are right but only to a degree. These NTCC ministers who insight anger while pointing their fingers at other ministers and church members will cause someone to get hurt a whole lot faster than someone who slams a chair because that preacher said something that was totally uncalled for.
I put up with so much abuse from NTCC ministers that I no longer have any tolerance what-so-ever for an abusive minister. NONE!!! If I were in a church and some minister started blasting my wife for example? I'd stand up right in the middle of service and start chewing that dude out. If NTCC ministers don't want to see someone get hurt then they need to stop thinking that they can say anything they want and their pulpit will protect them.
There have been reports right here on this blog of an NTCC minister calling a women a "whore" right in the middle of service. I was at an NTCC church where the pastor called a faithful sister a "Jezebel" because she had pants on. If an NTCC pastor calls a mans wife a whore or Jezebel he needs to get punched right in his face repeatedly so fast he'd never see it coming. You are right Pastor Briggs. Someone would end up getting hurt. Call my wife a whore and buddy I'll guarantee that someone's getting hurt. If one of those abusive NTCC ministers sees me on the street they better not try that mess with me or my family. You see Pastor Briggs, if one of those abusive NTCC ministers gets put in the hospital maybe he and his abusive buddies will think twice before they call another mans wife a whore.
It's kind of like the kid on the play ground that got bullied everyday. He finally gets tired of it and he decides to do something drastic the very next time it happens. Well I'm there. I had all I can stand and I can't stand no more.
NTCC ministers have been using thier pulpits to bully folks for entirely too long and it's about time something is done about it.
For the record: The last thing I want to do is have a physical altercation with someone and I'm not suggesting that anyone reading this blog goes out to start a fight with an NTCC minister but I'll tell you this: If an NTCC pastor calls your wife a whore, or your child fat, then you better not put up with that garbage. Pastor Briggs, I can't stand these guys who've treated people this way and the truth is, what they need is a good beat down. They've been hiding behind that pulput for too ling.
Jeff
Reverend Briggs said...
And you will find that out when you've actually pastored something.
Do you think I am not now? I am not in a denomination like you, and I don't care to be right now. But, by God's grace, I am feeding and overseeing my wife's family with the Gospel. Thank God, I had the privilege once again last night to break the bread of life with them. They are in the Philippines and I save enough money to go there and have been there 4 times, although once was like a vacation for my wife and I. But the other times, her family gathers and I teach them by God's grace from the Bible. They grew up Catholic and I am endeavoring to share with them the Gospel from what I believe to be a more accurate Protestant, born-again, holiness perspective. When I am here in Hawaii, this is what has lately been occuring. By God's grace, they now are gathering together so that I can teach them via Skype or Yahoo Messenger. I thank God for making this possible. Last night was Sunday night for them. And they came after work to my apartment in the Philippines and probably the nanny cooked for them and fed them, and I taught them while my wife translated.
Now, I have done you the respect of honoring you with the title of reverend, even though I don't recognize NTCC as a very good example of a Christian church, but I am sure that because I am not evangelizing the people you think I should be evangelizing, you will continue to just call me Kris and disrespect me, even though I apologized to you for being so blunt before. I admit what I said deserved rebuttal, but you have been shoveling tirades of insults on me ever since we began this dialogue. And yet, we are of the same vocation. How dwelleth the love of God in you?
Jeff I don't like abusive preachers but neither do I like petulent little children that have no audience, or courage to take the matter to the source instead of lashing out in a way that could get others and themselves hurt just so they can get some attention. I had a man come and try to beat me up all because I couldnt' give him a place to stay or force someone to let him stay there... DIDN't I Jonathan.... but after the man was subdued I didn;t allow the breathren to Beat him silly.... DID I JOHNATHAN?
Two wrongs don't make a right. And I will not be castigated or even questioned by someone masqurading as a spiritual authority while doing something so obviously wrong. And I am not going to give voice to such sentiments as "beat down" because that is not right. Take your family out fo the church if that's what they do... call the leadership if you want and tell them.... Call me if you don't wnat to tell the leaders and I will go to the leadership for you... but don't risk children of the innocent. That's all I'm saying. Jesus over turned the tables of the ones responsible.. not the ones that were just present.
Rev. Briggs,
Actually I don't care if people call me by my first name. I just wanted you to notice that I do show you that respect. Call me anything you want. It's just names.
Rev. Kris...
Your wifes family does not a congregation make. There is a world out there bigger then her family. You hurl attack on honest laborers in God's vineyard based on a theory you have not as yet proved to be sound. Please show me how to pastor a church if you know how it should be done. If not, do not presume to know what the effective means of doing so is comprised of.
If you want to talk doctrine with me.. talk doctrine.. but do not attack me, or my fellow breathren and expect that I will not challenge you on your own short comings...
RB said...
There were small kids just ahead of this bozo when he was slinging in his rath... funny though, he sure high tailed it for the door quick..
Jeff said...
Sure he headed to the door quick. He had a big mob of irrational angry NTCCers who wanted to jump on him. The guys in the NTCC are just waiting to jump on someone who insults their false apostle. They are like the same angry mob who nailed Jesus to the cross. As soon as someone says something about RWD or one of these other creeps than everyone wants to jump on them. Real tuff. A whole church against one dude. Oh he was supposed to just stick around and have ten guys grab a hold of him? The big black dude chased Kris all the way to his room and then grabbed a hold of him. All I can tell you is we are both lucky it wasn't me. Whatever I did would have been in self defense. As soon as a man wants to stick up for himself or talk back to your sorry so called apostle everyone in the church wants to jump on him.
This is why people just need to leave the NTCC because if they don't they remain in a situation where people want to psychologically and physically control them. You can't even speak up for yourself in the NTCC. The last time I saw pastor Hunt I told him and his wife exactly what I thought about his church and his church leadership.
Jeff
Jeff... so you want me to believe if you felt you were going to throw a chair you would run? Hmmm I think I have you pegged different then that. I sure wouldnt...
You can protect him if you want.. it makes for good blogging.. but you know what I am saying is true.
Wow.. kind of the same thing when soeone wants to do something to your sorry so called president...
There is a time, place, and way to handle everything and throwing chairs, slamming or whatever he wants to call it in the presence of little children is not that place.
Big mob.. Jeff did you not read him when he said A (singular) black guy chased him? Where was the mob?
And one more thing Jeff, you say a man can't speak up for himself.. Rev. Moore was trying to speak up for someone else..
Okay... wait, this is too much for a Sunday. I will just respectfully bow out of this conversation for now. The night comes when no man can work. I am really using this time as sort of a new Bible Seminary point in my life. I am not in an organization's bible seminary, but I am taking my studies very seriously. I thank the Lord for the progress He has aloud me to make in re-learning a lot of things, and learning so much since I finally left the clutches of the KJV-only, Dake commentary-only, no charity organization called NTCC. My life is so enriched now by learning of the ancient Church's practices and the LOVE that they shared with one another. Just go ahead and get everything off your chest about me, and I will gladly return at a time that is convinient :) and give whatever answers I think I should. Criticize my ministry for it's lack of size, but I say, despise not the day of small things. You may be gnashing your teeth at me, but I think you are just falling for the same trick that I guess I had towards you, that of expressing preconceived notions about someone else's ministry.
I will say this and then go back to my studies.
I don't plan on digesting as much reading as I am now throughout my whole life. I just don't want to lead people into error, and I think my education from NTCC lacks so many things. There were so many holes in my understanding of scripture. For instance, how can you say 2Cor 8,9 are teaching tithe? I agree with what you said, ministers should be supported, but I have to say this... if the minister is collecting tithe from the people, in accordance with the same principles behind the Old Testament mandates, then the same principle should apply to the New Testament priests that they should not be working a job, but be full-time devoted to the ministry and ESPECIALLY the Word of God and prayer. Please do a study of the men of God in the Bible. You say that God chooses unlearned men to do His work. Do you think that after He chooses them He desires that they REMAIN unlearned men? I know God can use anybody. But we have to study what the Bible says. Paul told Timothy to give himself to reading and to the doctrine. You have to know the Bible, Sir. If I am a car washer, I better know what kind of soap to use. If I was a lawyer, then I should really know the law. If I was a doctor then I should know how to diagnose illnesses, write prescriptions, etc. If I am a preacher, the people expect me to really really understand the Word of God. They are unfortunately many times naive. They look at someone in NTCC when he says he is a minister, and as innocent sheep they often take it for granted that he has mastered the Bible. Then ministers receive all kinds of respect from them, and then they start to get questions they don't know the answer to, and they preach against people who have legitimate yet hard questions because they are "just making excuses for sin." It's a cop out.
Good day... Go ahead and say all you want. I will refrain from looking at your comments for a while though.
Calling people in the NTCC leadership does absolutely no good. I tried that one. Sis Haynes tried that one and the leadership did nothing. They certainly never notified her and that is the same as doing nothing. Sir, you think God doesn't advocate violence? To everything there is a season. I time for peace and a time for war. That is what the Bible says and some of these abusive Pastors need a good beat down and it's called "judgment". You believe that God sends people to hell for eternity. Well that is a whole lot more severe than a good beat down. The only way to stop a bully is to be more extreme than he is. It's a fact. As long as nothing is done about it these NTCC creeps keep up their abuse. If you tell the leadership nothing gets done. If you scream back at them brothers in the church want to jump on you. If you push a chair out of the way to get out of the church some big dude chases you and slams you up against a wall and holds you there until RWD arrives to straighten you out. It's no win situation so the best answer for a bully pulpit abusive NTCC minister is a good beat down and I make no apologies for that statement. Sometimes violence is necessary in this world hence our right to bear arms. Second Amendment baby.
NTCC ministers will get up in a mans face in a minute and I've seen it. Well if you get into a mans personal space spiting and screaming then you better expect to get struck. Sir you won't make me feel bad by saying things like, "Oh Bro that's not right" because what the NTCC does isn't right. It's easy for you to say two wrongs don't make a right when it's NTCC ministers who are always treating people wrong. Well two wrongs and the old beat down will make an abusive NTCC minister start to act right. So two wrong do make a right. Ha, ha, ha, ha, LOL. That was good.
Jeff
RB said...
Big mob.. Jeff did you not read him when he said A (singular) black guy chased him? Where was the mob?
Jeff said...
The big black dude was faster then the rest. I read the entire original story on the Shunk's blog. The big black dude got to Kris before the rest and he held him in place until the mob got there. If Kris would have stayed in that church a whole mob would have jumped on him and you know it Sir.
Jeff
RB said...
There is a time, place, and way to handle everything and throwing chairs, slamming or whatever he wants to call it in the presence of little children is not that place.
Jeff said...
And calling women fat and whores in church isn't the place either but I don't see anyone else standing up to guys like RWD in the middle of service and doing anything about it? There were kids in every church service where an NTCC minister started spitting and yelling and slamming his hand on something every time he got mad at one of his church members so there was something wrong with Kris slamming a chair? NTCC ministers have a history of slamming stuff right in the middle of service everytime they get a little so called "righteous indignation".
You don't know there were no children around when Christ started flipping tables? You are assuming there weren't. What about when God brought judgment where children were smitten also? The first born of every Egyptian was put to death during the last judgment and you are making a big deal out of Kris possibly accidentally bumping someone with a chair which didn't wind up happening anyway? What about that NTCC minister who said to womans child, "You are going to grow up fat, just like your momma." That can do a whole lot more damage to a kid than accidentally getting bumped by a light weight flimsy chair.
The kids are in more danger of being hurt when all these brothers are jumping and flailing around during song service then they would be with Kris trying to exit the building. Children were certainly in more danger because of some physically abusive NTCC pastor who wanted to spank other peoples kids with a switch and a board all the time. That actually happened in the NTCC and RWD bailed the preacher out of jail and this man remained in the NTCC long after it happened and you are worried about someone getting bumped accidentally by a chair Sir? Kris wasn't trying to hit a child with a chair and a child didn't get hit with a chair.
I had to tell people 50 times in the NTCC church to stop touching my little boy all the time becasue I didn't what him to get sick. All that one NTCC minister did about it was make light of my request. In fact they all did. I'd rather have my boy get bumped by a chair than get the sick as a dog becasue everybody and their brother kept sticking hands all over his face and hands. I finally made him hide behind me and I would tell them as soon as they reached for him not to touch him. Then the pastor thought I was going to offend someone. In fact it was oberhauser the abuser who decided to go HAM on everybody in the whole church. Shortly after my Wife and I left the NTCC for good. Oberhauser and his mixed up sorry, inexperianced, misguided leadership was the final straw with us.
Jeff
Kris,
I may not agree with some of your doctrines, and that is fine. The one thing you saw at NTCC that was unbearable was the blatant hypocrisy, living like kings while others are starving. Without a doubt there are many in the org who do these things out of a sincere heart and want to believe the best about there leaders. The problem for ntcc is they cannot hide the fact that there leaders are fat, selfish, pigs who could care less about people and only use the ministry as a means to an end- the end being a lavish lifestyle. It is unfortunate that Christians naturally have a tendency to be naive and easily deceived. There are many false teachers in the world, Davis, Kekel, Kinson, Ashmore...they are only a few, but they will pay in the end, they all have gone in the way of Balaam, using the ministry for financial gain, they know nothing of the true and living God and never will. They are merely pawns being used to trap sincere Christians in a false, cancerous system. I think that many are fearful of leaving because they know they will have to relearn everything all over again. My relative is now into his forties, what do you do at that age when you realize "I just threw away my best years".....you repent and turn and God will restore the years that the locust (ntcc) have eaten! run for your lives people, flee this whore of Babylon before she syphons you of your time, money and youth!!!
TB
Well Jeff, that's brought us full circle because that's why I cary my H&K .40
:)
RB said...
Well Jeff, that's brought us full circle because that's why I cary my H&K .40
Jeff said...
LOL. That was good. Just don't abuse your church members and you shouldn't need it. You definitely don't want to call a man's wife a whore. Pastor Briggs, there are plenty of dangerous people in this world which is why I carry a sidearm as much as I do. In fact there is one sitting next to me right now as I write. Someone tries to kick down my door, invade my home, and take my family captive? The rest is history.
I don't blame you one bit for carrying a .40 cal. I would just hope that you wouldn't make someone in your church so mad that you'd have to use it. Some of these NTCC ministers play a real dangerous game Pastor Briggs.
Jeff
Let the record show:
Kristopher Moore submitted multiple parcels of testimony in multiple comments on the blog titled New Testament Christian Church, Deborah's Witness.
Kristopher Moore, later made multiple requests to Gregory Shunk in reference to said multiple posts asking that all multiple posts and comments on said blog be deleted by Gregory Shunk. These requests were made in writing on said blog by Kristopher Moore, who gave vague reasons for said requests for removal of said comments and posts from said blog.
It is understood by the court that Kristopher Moore made the requests for removal of his testimony because he "wanted to be right with God" and his conscience was troubled concerning the veracity of his statements in the publication of his multiple comments and posts articulating his testimonial of the incident of slamming and throwing of chairs and his dialogue with Pastor Davis after the incident occured at the last conference attended by Kristopher Moore.
If Kristopher Moore is truthful and consistent, he will within a certain period of time make a request for removal of his comments on this blog.
This poster is knowledgable of the events that occurred in the conference concerning Kristopher Moore and the disturbance caused by him in the public meeting.
Have a Nice Day to Whom it May Concern.
TB said:
There are many false teachers in the world, Davis, Kekel, Kinson, Ashmore...they are only a few, but they will pay in the end, they all have gone in the way of Balaam, using the ministry for financial gain, they know nothing of the true and living God and never will. They are merely pawns being used to trap sincere Christians in a false, cancerous system.
I say:
I know this for a fact: When I was sick and on the verge of dying, Pastor Davis prayed specifically for my condition, at my request, and I immediately began to recover. I literally felt it stop attacking my body within minutes of his prayer and laying on of hands.
In a later situation, Rev Ashmore prayed for my wife at her request for a specific medical problem and that condition disappeared within 24 hours.
Say what you will, but as for me, I can testify that God honored the prayers of these men in our specific circumstances. I understand that as Jesus said "Your faith hath made thee whole". However, I don't count lightly the fact that the healing occurred almost immediately after these men prayed specifically for a specific situation.
Thats my True Story.
Name withheld by request for personal reasons.
Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Anon, read this carefully!
Sincerely,
TB
Let the record show that Mike Kekel has posted messages that he's regularly taken down. Was it a troubled conscience as well that caused him to pull down messages which he'd previously posted?
Well let the record show that this blog has been up and running for years now and I've been calling RWD and Ashmore abusers throughout that entire time and all associated messages remain. My conscience don't bother me a bit. In fact I feel a whole lot better every time I call RWD or Ashmore a couple control mongers.
Now, about the prayers from those same two abusers that supposedly attributed to someone's sickness going away. You were very vague concerning your testimony. You never said what was wrong with you or your wife. Ok you were sick with ? and then you got better. All kinds of people get sick every day and get better. If you were getting ready to die you must have been in a hospital I would imagine right? If so I would also imagine that the doctors gave you some meds right? If that was the case maybe the meds were kicking in?
Could you give more specifics about your condition? Don't mind me but I'm very skeptical of vague testimonies. It's possible that what you are saying is true but your vague testimony leaves a lot to conjecture. Wow, that was a big word. Conjecture. I had to look it up to make sure I used it appropriately. Here are few definitions:
1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
2. to conclude or suppose from grounds or evidence insufficient to ensure reliability.
Do you see where I'm going? Based on your testimony, there is not enough evidence to suggest anything other than you were already in the process of recovering from your illness. Which ever the case I'm sincerely glad that you recovered. Being extremely ill is not fun. I've been there a few times myself. RWD wasn't involved with any such occurrences in my life. My dad was real sick one time and I called an NTCC pastor and asked for prayers also? If I remember correctly I even asked him to contact RWD so he could pray for my father. My father died. I'm not looking for sympathy, this happened years and years ago.
Either way, none of it means that RWD is a man of God. The magicians in Egypt were able to duplicate Moses for a while with signs and wonders. They certainly weren't godly and in my book RWD is a crook.
Jeff
I was at the chair slamming conference and was disgusted over rev. Mcdonalds story aswell. I lacked the courage to do what kris did. I think there is greater to children at conferences from fat dancing men and pushing to get in a door than from fist pounding on furniture. Btw kris, i'll return your email this week. Eric.
Kris,
Forget the Chairs. I would have gone straight to the pulpit!!
Macdonald even told me once, "You've got some beef with me?" after a service when I just about was ready to let him verbally have it.
Macdonald told me once, "Brother Johnson I CANNOT give you a recommendation letter to go to Bible school" This was after ONE YEAR of faithful service.
So I keep on extending in Korea four times in a row to get his approval. Finally, after year 4 MacDonald tells me, "Brother Johnson I will have no problem giving you a letter of recommendation to attend Bible School.
He never did.
Now you all know why I stayed in Korea for as long as I did.
I was trying to get a letter of recommedation to attend Bible School. I just never knew that NTCC Bible School was so hard to get into. And then the guy leaves and does NOT give me a Letter of Recommendation????
Now you know why I would charge straight to the pulpit.
Your two faced, MacDonald. It took me this long to figure it out.
Anyone notice Macdonald is not in the Phillipines anymore?
All I gotta say is, good luck in Guam. I hope you do not get assaulted like you did in Korea. With that metal plate in your face it will not hurt as much.
Bro Johnson
Anonymous said...
I was at the chair slamming conference and was disgusted over Rev. MacDonald's story as well.
Jeff said...
There is always more to the story than meets the eye. So it would seem that Kris was on target. Too bad no one else in that place had any balls.
Jeff
Ha ha ha.. haha and again I just have to say Hahahaha...
You never answered my question Jeff.. if you had the gumption to stnad up and slam chairs would you then leave?
TB.. ok, so recommend an alternative. WHat is a better group to be invovled with? Is there an organization anywhere that does not have problems?
I am not a fan of the idea that you just stop being involved with organization. It's like saying "I had a bad marriage so I'm never going to get married again". The institution itself is not the problem it the individual people that are the problem.
Anyway the conversation has begun to become stagnant in my view... I will jump in again when I feel the need....
Bye for now
RB asked...
You never answered my question Jeff.. if you had the gumption to stand up and slam chairs would you then leave?
Jeff said...
It's a lot easier to say what I'd do now that I'm out of the NTCC vs when I was in. Yeah I probably would leave though. What are you going to do? Get into a wrestling match with every brother who decided to flex because of his loyalty to RWD? You wouldn't get very far with that approach.
The thing to do is know that a whole bunch of other brothers have your back before you decide to get irate with some bully pulpiteer. That way you don't get jumped on, and it either turns into a big standoff or worst case a big brawl. I'm not a dummy. I know how protective those testosterone filled NTCC brothers can get. You speak up in the middle of service and it's a good possibility that a whole bunch of them will be coming right at you.
Even if only one decided to grab a hold of me, the second I punched him in his ear and he hit the ground, ten more would pile on me about as quick as I could blink.
To answer your question I'd probably give the abusive preacher a good peace of my mind and then yes I'd probably walk out. The fact is I'll probably never be in that position again. I'm not a glutton for punishment. I never went back to the last church where the preacher said some stupid stuff.
Jeff
RB said...
TB.. ok, so recommend an alternative. What is a better group to be involved with? Is there an organization anywhere that does not have problems?
Jeff said...
Of course I can't speak for TB but I can speak for myself concerning this question. Most church organizations don't have the problems that the NTCC has. There probably aren't too many organizations that recruit young impressionable military personnel who's only experience with leadership was with the Drill Sergeant who yelled at them every day.
That is a huge problem Pastor Briggs. You have all these young guys who go out and try to run their church like a basic training platoon. Then you have a seminary with so many stupid rules that the young preacher doesn't know which ones to take with him and which ones to leave at Graham.
Then you have this cult tactic stuff where so many NTCC pastors think that everyone outside of the NTCC is the devil and they try to separate everyone who is in the NTCC from everyone who is not. They break up marriages, families, friends and it's a real problem that a lot of other churches don't have.
Yes other churches have problems but not like the ones the NTCC has because of their recruitment methods and that is the way I see it.
Just recently, I was told that pastor Ramirez tried to tell a lady that she couldn't go to one of her close friends wedding because the girl who was getting married had left the NTCC. What kind of garbage is that? To his credit it's my understanding that Pastor Kekel told Ramirez to back off from that approach. My story could be off but this is what I've been told. I understand how stories can change once you get them second hand however at one time Ramirez was my pastor and I know how he can get. He is one seriously mean dude and one of the biggest control mongers I've ever met in my life. Thank God he was because I'd have thrown my life away by going to the NTCS back in 1987 had Ramirez not been such a jerk. WOW!!!! I can't imagine how bad the NTCC would have messed up my life had I thrown my military career away. It would be different if the NTCC had a real college with a real degree that can be used outside the NTCC but they don't. WOW!!! I can't believe how close I came. Thank God for Ramirez. Man I'm glad that dude was abusive. Same with Mayers and Oberhauser.
Now I live a good life with the best job I've ever had and nice country house that is peaceful and quiet and a great school system that my children attend. My daughter is getting ready to go to one of the best colleges in the nation. She has already been accepted. Life is good outside the NTCC and I'm not just saying that. If everything works out, my daugher may wind up with a "REAL" doctorate degree from one of the best colleges in the nation and she will do a whole lot to help people if she achieves her goals.
Here are a few things she won't be doing. She won't be allowing Verna's match making service to choose a husband for her. She won't be shopping at every thrift store in the nation to buy someone elses used clothing. She won't be cleaning Tanya Kekels home. She won't be marrying a dude who is broke because he gives all his money to the NTCC. She won't be disowning us because we are no longer a part of the NTCC. She won't be moving from state to state everytime RWD wakes up on the wrong side of the bed. She won't be looking for a job at walmart when she is 60 because she is no longer with a dude who spent his whole life in the NTCC and either left her or died with little or nothing. She will be in a possition to be able to take care of herself. The NTCCs plan for women is a fast road to failure. Not unless your name is Tanya.
Jeff
Jeff Said
It's a lot easier to say what I'd do now that I'm out of the NTCC vs when I was in. Yeah I probably would leave though. What are you going to do? Get into a wrestling match with every brother who decided to flex because of his loyalty to RWD? You wouldn't get very far with that approach.
RB Says
But the problem is NO ONE understood why the guy was throwing chairs around. excuse me.. slamming chairs around.. they were mostly praying when they started hearing all this ruckous.. staying around would have at least let people know he wasn't a nut.. they could have heard his side of the story.. but agian... it did no good to turn over the chairs of the congregants.. he should have looked for a table or pulpit or somethign that would have indicated who he was really mad at.
Jeff.. on the last post of yours concerning what your daughter "won't" be doing... there are obviously some things I disagree with as a point. But your synopsis and in some cases hypothosis is good. And for that I applaud you. You made, in my estimation one of the best no nonsense, bullet lists of grievences and that is what is needed to get to the heart of the problem. Something like that can be useful and again if you want people like me who are within the organization to care and understand what it is that people like you really are bothered by.. keep that type of approach up.. and get others to do the same... and you might be happier with the results and exchange. I know your goal has nothing to do with being "frineds" with NTCC people. But I don't think your goal is to make us all "enemies".
I say this again for the readers more then you. If you are of the opinion of many that NTCC needs to be destroyed because it has no good or redeeming qulities or people.. then do what you think you must (so will we). If you are of the opinion however that there are good, godly, Christian men and women. Some good leaders, and redeemable qualities if reformation is made then stop delving into to personal emotional ad hominem attacks... they are never going to get anywhere.
Get specific like the list Jeff posted. Something might be fixable... others might not... but at least we as individual leaders can adress them within our selves to see which are and which aren't
These blogs really need to include a spell check capability...
Sorry for my typo's!
"Sorry for my typo's!"
That should be typos. Apostrophes are used to indicate possessiveness, not plurality.
It's a pet peeve, but I am trying to help. You'll appear more literate if you take heed.
Thank you Vic.. I appreciate that. And I agree... that's why I don't like the typing on the fly concept.
RB said...
Thank you Vic.. I appreciate that. And I agree... that's why I don't like the typing on the fly concept.
Jeff said...
I make plenty of mistakes which is an understatement. Sometimes the spell check works and sometimes it doesn't. I don't know why? Of course even if it did work all the time, that doesn't fix my other mistakes or my overall poor use of the English language.
Jeff
Dear Shonda Cannon,
I just wanted to post that Eric and I have left NTCC August 2009. We are very happy and are well established in a church. I could not find you facebook or a number listed for you. If you would like to get in touch,find me on facebook and I can give you my number.
Nicole Granger
RB said...
Jeff.. on the last post of yours concerning what your daughter "won't" be doing... there are obviously some things I disagree with as a point.
Jeff said...
Just for kicks I'm going to review the list that I previously posted.
1. We all know that there has been plenty of match making done in the NTCC and specifically at the seminary. Verna has a history of giving sisters her two cents. I don't think I was off with that one. I've heard RWD say that he won't be doing any more match making but actions speak louder than words and my daughter will have more than 50 guys to choose from.
2. Thrift store shopping! Need I say more? NTCC sisters shop at thrift stores so much because money is so tight. Sisters were constantly talking about good thrift/second hand clothing stores. Well if I have to choose between giving money, which will go toward the Kekels museum and Grants education or "BRAND NEW CLOTHING" for my kids, I'll choose my kids every time. RWD likes brand new stuff and he said so, and why shouldn't I? I've never seen so many people from one group shopping for second hand clothing. The NTCC won that award. My daughter has worked hard, and as a result she was accepted into one of the top colleges in the nation. Of the group who attended the college orientation, she was the only kid who had already received an acceptance letter as of the day of the event. On campus at the college bookstore, I bought her a new jacket with the college logo the day of the orientation. We didn't hunt around to find a thrift store to buy her a jacket with the college logo almost worn off of it.
If it's good enough for RWD then it's good enough for my family. If Grant can go to a secular college, than so can my daughter. My daughter is not some second class citizen because she is a "GIRL" thank you. Lord willing, she will be able to show RWD what a real doctorate degree looks like one day.
3. Cleaning Tanya's home? What a complete joke and what a complete misuse of authority. That is leadership at it's very worst. I do not advocate that under any circumstances and nothing will convince me otherwise. If Tanya is too busy to clean her own house, that's not my daughters problem. Tanya needs to learn to be a real "keeper at home" which means to be a good house keeper. There are women with jobs who take care of their own home. What, is Tanya some kind of slave master? If her house is to big for her to clean it her self, she needs a smaller one or hire a full time maid. Despicable!!!
4. My daughter will not be marrying some broke dude if I can help it. She can do bad all by her self without marrying some dude with no degree and no professional training other than 4 years in the military. Life is real and I've watched too many financially struggling NTCC ministers to put my daughter in that situation with no job. NTCC ministers running around with some old broke down car one right after another. In fact every NTCC pastor I ever had. Taylor - OLD Toyota 2 door with over 200,000 miles. Ramirez - Some old piece of junk German car that Bro Ivory had to fix and pull the engine apart right in the driveway. Mayers - A Nissan Quest with a bad transmission. Hunt - A Chevy van with a bad transmission and other problems. Oberhauser - A Chrysler van with a bad transmission and a whole lot of other stuff bad. Solomon was not my pastor but he drove a broke down van that he had to leave at conference and he had to ride back to Georgia with another brother. Can I stop here?
5. Sis Espinoza had to get a low budget job after her husband died because she hadn't worked for years if ever. There are other sisters who've found themselves in the same boat. Not my daughter. She won't be back under my roof because some dude struck out. She will get her own degree so if she needs to, she can take care of her self and not live below the poverty level shopping for second hand clothes in a broke down car.
Jeff
Good points made Jeff, real good.
Jeff, you stated, and I quote about your Daughter:
"She will be in a position to be able to take care of herself. The NTCCs plan for women is a fast road to failure. Not unless your name is Tanya".
First of all brother, Congrats on your daughter's acceptance. You have a right to be PROUD Dad and I rejoice with you.
As a Father also having a daughter, I am very protective of her. She will not fall for one of those NTCC dudes years down the road, if NTCC is still around, highly unlikely (just a hunch!)
I told my wife that my daughter is going to marry a Millionaire Christian Gentleman. Yes, you can say that this is an arranged marriage, but it is for her own good.
Before that happens, she is going to be exposed to a real eye opener called the Air Force. If she still wants to be a doctor, that is the way to go.
My oldest son, who will be President in 40 years (Republican) will first join the Army and get that service time under his belt.
My youngest son is going to be an astronaut, so he is either going Air Force or Marines.
The experience that comes with serving your Country in the Military pays dividends both seen and unseen.
After they get that first car payed off, thanks to the Armed Forces and then go to college for free thanks to the Post 9-11 GI BILL they can do whatever they want to do.
I'm currently going to contact some Saudi Prince who is a Billionaire or Millionaire to take care of my daughter. Y'all laugh but like Jeff stated earlier, and I will paraphrase, my daughter is not marrying a Dirt-bag, def not from NTCC. That dude is going to be smart and have money.
As for me? After I retire from the Military I'm working for the Govt in some form or fashion until I die. Public service is the way to go.
Bro Johnson
Wow Hi Nicole! I would love to to talk to you! You and your husband have always been such sweet and godly people, thank you so much for tying to look me up so we could get in touch. I don't have a Facebook at the time but if you would like to reach me you can email me at shondarcannon@gmail.com and I will give you my number.
Hugs God Bless!
Bro Johnson said...
Y'all laugh but like Jeff stated earlier, and I will paraphrase, my daughter is not marrying a Dirt-bag, def not from NTCC.
Jeff said...
I understand what you are saying my friend but that is not exactly a good paraphrase. Many of these NTCC guys are pretty good guys. It's the NTCC system that places them in a bad position. It's the NTCC system that creates many struggles. So to paraphrase myself, I don't need my daughter getting involved with some dude who's allowed himself to be placed in a bad situation which has resulted in financial instability. The NTCC system breeds that kind of outcome. That is why so many NTCC dudes are running around in broke down cars shopping for second hand clothing. There are people who draw welfare doing better than that!! These folks are living below the poverty level and that is no joke. My daughter is heading in a completely different direction and she won't be getting hooked up with a dude like that if I can help it.
Jeff
When RW said in 1977 that "God does not call us to be successful much less sensational". I expect a person to stick by what they say. When you have a bunch of 20 year-olds at your feet lapping up every word, you better be consistent, to say the least. You say its OK to change over the years. But one has no right to become something they preached against unless they admit they were wrong back then.
But a pope cannot admit fallibilty. RW does not allow any correction. Especially from any "underlings" Example- in classes he taught- God put me here (in the chair as teacher) and you there- as student) does that not signify something? Also- "would God send you to a school run by an adulterer?" as we sat on the front row and all 6-7 of us repeated, "no" ... its easy when we are 20 year-olds and his peers are absent.
I believe we will not change RB, but RB, you have no clue what you are into. Pray and let God lead you. If the word says to cast out devils- and RW stops you (as he did to Ashmore) who do you obey? God or man? and don't say God is testing your loyalties. If that be the case- then ALWAYS obey the WORD. God will NEVER hold you under someone who commands you AGAINST THE WORD.
Bro Jeff,
You are right, Fair is fair. There ARE some good folks in NTCC to include some preachers.
If I offended anyone I apologize.
But, it is what it is.
God Bless you all faithful Exers, and those who are faithful within NTCC. May your faithfulness pull you away from RWD and NTCC!!
Bro Johnson
Bro Johnson said...
God Bless you all faithful Exers, and those who are faithful within NTCC. May your faithfulness pull you away from RWD and NTCC!!
Jeff said...
Amen to that.
Jeff
Hey RB,
You asked where I suggest you go, I realize that it was tongue in cheek, but would still like to give my two-cents-
I don't know what your doctrinal beliefs are, I would assume you have developed your own beliefs that are somewhat different than NTCC therefore you must look for a church that you feel hold closest to what you believe the Bible teaches.
The most obvious point would be to find a church that has leadership with humility. A pastor who claims he can't remember the last time he sinned is a definite NO! Along with all the other obnoxious, cult-like statements that Davis has made.
Beware of any church that claims it is one of the only 'true' churches
I attend a Calvary Chapel, I have been attending for fifteen years and will admit that it is not perfect (no church is) but the pastoral staff believes in servant style leadership (not serving them, leadership), They can admit it if they are wrong.
Find a church with FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE!!! One of the truest signs of a destructive cult is the lavish lifestyle of leadership.
The one thing I LOVE about Calvary Chapels is the dedication to the teaching of the Bible, We are living in a day that Pastors cannot(I believe) do topical sermons because they just really don't know the Bible the way the old timers did. Spurgeon could do topicals, but he was a living breathing Bible index that could pull analogies from any portion of the Bible no matter how seemingly obscure.
Seriously, RB, the financial problems at ntcc are the base and root of all the problems. I don't understand how you can just look the other way while your hard-earned money is just given away to the founders son in law! If that does not make you mad nothing will- it is illegal! and if they are able to skirt the law and make it seem legal, it is unethical.
Does ntcc have a retirement plan set-up for you? How long have you been in? How much do you think you have tithed over the years.
At Calvary the first thing they do when they put a pastor on full-time is buy a life insurance plan for him so his family will be ok if anything happens and begin contributing to a retirement plan- that is a non-denominational church! The pastors don't drive cadillacs or live in multi-million dollar homes.
What do you think?
Sincerely,
TB
Oh, by the way, the pastors are not required to give to the church!! and...The senior pastor is not required to send money to the original Calvary Chapel (Costa mesa) they are all independent, the only requirement is that you don't teach false doctrines and stay close on key doctrines like eschatology and soteriology etc..
TB
First TB thank you for your sincerity and desire to be a blessing to my life.
Lets, for the sake of this discussion, assume that I take your advice and depart NTCC and seek enterance into an organization such as Calvary Chapel out of Costa Mesa California. Would there be a garuntee that no scandal would be encountered? No false doctrines would be taught?
A quick google search of “Calvary Chapel Scandals” returned this among many other websites, wiki files, and other things which cast more then a questionable light on your particular organization.
http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146634/FrontPage
For instance. The founder of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa California was Chuck Smith, of him we can read
Chuck Smith taught that Jesus would return by May of 1981 in a number of his books and messages. When the May prediction failed the date was moved to December 31, 1981. Three of the books are documented here including Future Survival, Snatched Away, and End Times. Quotes from each of these books will be examined as well as their immediate context.
And the article sited two of his books with these predictions in it as proof of their claim. These books are (Future Survival, ©1978, was published by The Word For Today. See pages 7, 17, 20, 21, 22, 49, 53, and 67) and (© 1978 The Word For Today).
We can also read that they have abuses in power because the whole Smith family is on the payroll
They attack other churches as seen in this information
http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146594/CC-attacks-other-churches
Here is an article, and audio file, speaking of Chuck Smith (Calvary Founder) advising a young woman to abort a child
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/7064816215.html
Here is one of Pastor Jim Kepner’s arrest for solicitation of a prostitute.
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2010/03/jim_kempner_beach_cities_calva.php
And here is a whole list of resources for people who have been abused by Calvary Chapel and it’s ministers
http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146638/help-for-the-abused
Here's one of a rape of a congregant with their personal "testimony"
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=240&wpmp_switcher=mobile
There are several web pages dedicated to the covering of all of the Calvary Chapel Financial Abuse/scandals but I thought I would show one that is from a guy kind of like me. He ackknowledges the abuse by some, but defends his organization
http://ccsurveys.com/about-this-site/
Should I continue? Do you get my point? I am not saying I believe all of this stuff.. I haven’t researched it and I don’t know.
If you choose to attend there great. And if you find God there terrific. But understand your organizational backyard appears to be at a minimum as "dirty" as mine. No group is going to be perfect. But understand that all the while you TB are reaching out to me and others like me to leave our “cult” there are just as many, if not more reaching out to you and “yours”.
In fact here is a whole thread much like “factnet” devoted to exposing what the writers call the Calvary Chapel “cult”
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,29740,page=1
So in short, I guess what I am saying is I would rather stay where I am because I know what I've got. I know the weaknesses and I know the strengths. Time might change that. But for now I am content.
Wow, something I didn't notice when I wrote you a few moments ago TB there is even one person on the Forum I mentioned that says Calvary Chapel has a friend of theirs going to church
7 times a week...
So I guess things could be worse right?
Jeff please check spam... my large comment ended up there I think.
THIS IS A REPOST SO YOU CAN READ WHAT I SAID TB
First TB thank you for your sincerity and desire to be a blessing to my life.
Lets, for the sake of this discussion, assume that I take your advice and depart NTCC and seek entrance into an organization such as Calvary Chapel out of Costa Mesa California. Would there be a guarantee that no scandal would be encountered? No false doctrines would be taught?
A quick Google search of “Calvary Chapel Scandals” returned this among many other websites, wiki files, and other things which cast more then a questionable light on your particular organization.
calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146634/FrontPage
For instance. The founder of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa California was Chuck Smith, of him we can read
Chuck Smith taught that Jesus would return by May of 1981 in a number of his books and messages. When the May prediction failed the date was moved to December 31, 1981. Three of the books are documented here including Future Survival, Snatched Away, and End Times. Quotes from each of these books will be examined as well as their immediate context.
And the article sited two of his books with these predictions in it as proof of their claim. These books are (Future Survival, ©1978, was published by The Word For Today. See pages 7, 17, 20, 21, 22, 49, 53, and 67) and (© 1978 The Word For Today).
We can also read that they have abuses in power because the whole Smith family is on the payroll
They attack other churches as seen in this information
calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146594/CC-attacks-other-churches
Here is an article, and audio file, speaking of Chuck Smith (Calvary Founder) advising a young woman to abort a child
christiannewswire.com/news/7064816215.html
Here is one of Pastor Jim Kepner’s arrest for solicitation of a prostitute.
blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2010/03/jim_kempner_beach_cities_calva.php
And here is a whole list of resources for people who have been abused by Calvary Chapel and it’s ministers
calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146638/help-for-the-abused
Should I continue? Do you get my point? I am not saying I believe all of this stuff.. I haven’t researched it and I don’t know. If you choose to attend there great. And if you find God there terrific. But understand your organizational backyard appears to be far dirtier then mine. No group is going to be perfect. But understand that all the while you TB are reaching out to me and others like me to leave our “cult” there are just as many, if not more reaching out to you and “yours”.
In fact here is a whole thread much like “factnet” devoted to exposing what the writers call the Calvary Chapel “cult”
forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,29740,page=1
You feel comfortable and confident in your church, and organization as I do mine. I acknowledge faults and even sins have been done, so do you. But you don’t feel the scandal surrounding your group is worthy of your departure. I in turn might find your seeming willingness to turn a blind eye to their abuses hard to believe. But in turn I would rather simply “leave them alone” and do what God wants me to do.
Hey, why not go to my blog and listen to a sermon or two of mine and then tell me what you think.
Jeff.. it's the links that send the article to the spam folder.. at least in my post's case.. just so you know.
TB I answered you twice but the post will have to be restored before you can read it.. please do so when you can
"NTCC ministers running around with some old broke down car one right after another."
Jeff, I have considered writing a book based on my vast experience in Car Hell, primarily in NTCC. Dude I can spin some true yarns that are better than any fiction. I've broken down going across country for NTCC more than once...and more than twice! Every kind of mechanical failure imagineable, and usually in some out-of-the-way place. We spent a week in Cassiar, an asbestos mine town way up in northern BC once after our transmission blew up. There were no motels; we stayed with a gold miner in a singlewide mobile. The place doesn't even exist anymore; when asbestos crashed they obliterated the town and remediated the mine site. We broke down in Montana once and wound up living in a tent for a week. It goes on and on. Book length for sure. Maybe even a sequel.
You had two comments in the spam folder Pastor Briggs. Believe me when I tell you Pastor Briggs, I really can't stand that spam folder. If you guys take the time to type something I want it to be published.
It does the same thing to me. I've even lost really large messages that I've tried to post. Sometimes now, I copy it before I even try to publish it, just in case that happens.
Just know that I do want all you comments to get published.
Jeff
RB said...
Chuck Smith taught that Jesus would return by May of 1981 in a number of his books and messages. When the May prediction failed the date was moved to December 31, 1981.
Jeff said...
Sounds like RWD. If my recollection serves me right, (other than the dates being different) the same thing happened to RWD. He made certain predictions that never came to pass.
Jeff
Vic wrote...
We broke down in Montana once and wound up living in a tent for a week.
Jeff said...
You are not even close to the only one in the NTCC that kind of thing happened to. I've heard of the same kind of stuff too many times. Thats why I wrote about the broke down cars because it's so true. One time I told a brother he'd be crazy to go to conference in his heap. I was certain he'd get stuck and then who would bail him out. It certainly wouldn't be the pastor. That whole mindset is not right and the NTCC promoted that stuff.
Try telling RWD back in the day that you weren't making it to conference because you drove an unreliable car? RWD would tell you that you had no faith. I know it and then he preach at you as soon as he saw you at conference. Then he tell you that your car broke down because you doubted God and he'd lay a big guilt trip on you. I know how those guys operate. Anyone who tell me I'm lying, they are the liar.
Jeff
RB
I heard the actual audio of Chuck Smith's so called prediction, which the book was transcribed from- it went something like this "If the Lord doesn't return by such and such a date, I will eat my hat"....not exactly a prediction.
Chuck Smith has not claimed to be visited by angels, he has not claimed to be sinless, he has not claimed papal authority, his church is successful, yet, he is not deriving his income of the backs of associated calvary chapels, there are no escrow accounts, he does not need to steal money from those under his authority.
As far as the other comments go, there will always be some kind of controversy in a church, especially one the size and scope of Calvary chapel's.
I always found it interesting that you could google Calvary chapel which is at least a hundred times the size of ntcc, if not much more, and get more dirt on little ntcc than a church like calvary that is larger than most denominations.
You can skirt the true issues all you want, and i noticed you DID NOT answer my questions regarding mike kekel and a retirement plan for yourself. ???? why is that?
I also do not believe that Chuck Smith has ever advised people (regularly) to divorce their spouse for unbiblical reasons.
If you think the grass is greener at ntcc I would suggest your either fearful of starting over or your corrupt as well. Being a Christian, I cannot understand how a minister, of all people, can remain in a corrupt church structure. (I do not believe your corrupt, for the record, fearful...maybe)
I know my relative is holding to a diminishing dream of pastoral success, I am sure his dream is beginning to become a nightmare and he may be changing the hopes and dreams he has regarding ntcc....unfortunately for him he has no family relations to the leaders and also has a handful of kids, which I am sure the leaders do not appreciate (it lowers his mulish labor value, he will want to do things for his family..scoff!!)
Looking at it from a distance, my family and I can see that his life a continual nightmare at ntcc, of which he is a willing participant-ntcc ruins lives through corrupt doctrine, corrupt practice and corrupt leadership. You may find those things in the midst of calvary here and there, but they are not the foundation of the church.
Please answer regarding your thoughts on kekels "gift" and your ntcc retirement plan
Thanks,
TB
TB...
First let me say that my reason for showing that information about CC was not to blast them. I don't even know them. It was to show you that your group has it's detractors too. It's very noble of you to want to defend them. And I do not question your motivations. You act from your own personal experience. But then again so do the people that write the negatives about the group.
As for them having "just" as much written about them as my organization I was being kind. Do the Google and you will find there is far more information. Put forth in a far more professional way then the 3 blogs that I know about concerning our church.
As to your question about a retirement program. No we don't have one but then again that is one difference between our group and others. We do not "retire". Why would a man that has the most experience be told "ok, now you are too old to do this so it's time for you to leave". There is always a work they can do.
Should there be a medical plan, or life insurance plan? Well that's not a bad idea. We now have a large enough pool of ministers to get a decent rate. However I do not expect it as a right, nor do I feel it is an organizational responsibility. It would be nice, I would take advantage of it. But I do not expect it.
As for Rev. Kekel getting all of my money. I feel you are speaking from emotion, and informational jundice (not a slam). He has a large congregational church that he pastor's, he has a position within our organziation which he performs. He is by far one of the hardest working men I know. I would be suprised if he was not a success.
If I knew he or anyone was simply skimming off the top, or draining to the bottom our church Escrow account I would be insensed and combative.. but I would first make attempt to rectivy and reform BEFORE I jump the ship. And why not? My tithe, like the tithe of the people in my congregation, is given to God and as such I don't sit around and think about it's use. To you that might seem wrong, and I respect that but I know of the support staffs in our HQ that require support from the organization they serve, I understnad the need to help keep our Seminary in repair and in a mode of growth because not only did I come from there but every Pastor that will ever assume this church leadership here in Pasadena will as well. We are investing in our own future as I see it.
Did that answer your questions sufficiently?
TB.. I need to ask this. You seem stuck on the "family" relation of Rev. Kekel to Pastor Davis. Why are you not as incensed by the family relation and the PAYMENT of each of these family relations of your Founder as well?
RB said:
TB.. I need to ask this. You seem stuck on the "family" relation of Rev. Kekel to Pastor Davis. Why are you not as incensed by the family relation and the PAYMENT of each of these family relations of your Founder as well?
RB, I am not aware of Chuck Smith doing anything fraudulent with the churches money...sorry, I do watch my own pastor carefully, and as far as I can see he seems to be a good man who is not doing anything fraudulent, If I thought he were I would confront him.
You have still not answered my question about Kekel being "gifted" the land from the corporation....maybe it is a bit of a touchy area for you, that would be understandable. Please let me know your feelings on that situation...don't be afraid of Kekel, he is nobody to fear, he is merely an opportunist with the gift of flattery (to some)
TB
As far as ministers go, my experience is it's a bad career to get into. Most start out on fire for God and sincere and most end up being self-righteous hypocrites...Perhaps in a poor country and no success a minister could end up ok...i don't know, I do not trust ministers, they need to be watched carefully always. there is way to much pretention and hypocricy and an ungodly expectation that they should be above others...foolishness
TB
TB... it's simple.. the land grant deal was leagal. And I am satisifed that it transpired the way it has been said to have. Having said that I believe it was a mistake in judgment. One that must never be allowed to happen again.
RB Said
"TB... it's simple.. the land grant deal was leagal. And I am satisifed that it transpired the way it has been said to have. Having said that I believe it was a mistake in judgment. One that must never be allowed to happen again."
TB said- Have you made your thoughts known to the leadership? A mistake in judgement? If it were simply a mistake in judgement could it not be gifted back to the organization? and Kekel would receive a huge tax write off as well.
Something that must never be allowed to happen again? Who is going to stop it? Certainly not kekel if he has not returned the mistaken land deal back to its rightful owners! You know it is wrong and your admitting it and your pissed off about it, but you just can't say it here...it is eating away at you...it is obvious
TB
"TB... it's simple.. the land grant deal was leagal."
Says who? Oh, the perpetrators: "Move along, nothing to see here..."
It is never legal to take the assets of a nonprofit corporation and transfer them to an individual. It's called private inurement, and just because the IRS has bigger fish to fry doesn't mean they endorse this rotten-to-the-core deal.
TB.. you really need to stop
1) putting words in my mouth
2) trying to be Carnak the Magician
I have enough God about me to openly acknowledge things. And YES I HAVE TALKED TO MY LEADER SHIP ABOUT THIS.. and other things. did you not read my article.
What of you.. your not even confident enough in yourself to state yoru whole name and yet you presume to know my intentions and mental state...
Interesting factoid - Chuck Smith was Jim Ashmores 1st pastor.
Kind of amusing to watch RB and TB play who's Church has cleaner hands....any time there are humans involved there will be scandal, from Genesis through today you can always count on people to be people, hence the need for a Saviour. Biblical history is fraught with church leaders who have sinned this will not change, nor will Gods ability to forgive, because His grace is sufficient TB even for those you despise the most.
Regarding the land deal knowing the prinicpals involved it transpired exactly as it was described by Joe Olson. While those involved likely would never admit it publicly, it falls under the category of failing to .."avoid the appearance of evil.." and I'm certain there will never be a repeat. NTCC is an evolving organism as is the rest of the Body of Christ, most of the changes are for the good, and while some of us may feel defrauded by the excesses of the past I remain optimistic for its future so long as it continues to move more centricly towards a Gospel based message.
Anon.. good points.. but you fail to understand I am not trying to show who has cleaner hands at all. My point was made... when a person's organization is questioned the people within those organizations choose sides. Some because of their experience choose the side of the detractors. Some because of their experience choose that of the supporters.
TB did just that. He over looks all that people have to say negative.. assesses everything through his own personal experience. Acknowledges some things can and have been done wrong. And states if something gets too far out of line he will stand up.
He, in a nut shell has said the same thing I have been saying ALL along.
But I can say, for my own leadership, If I am able to show people how to live right, I should also be able to show people how to make things right when I've been wrong.
BTW.. nice to see you here D
Oops sorry.. that's not D after all... my bad!
RB I believe TB is the sister of a Bro. Bean fyi
Brother Bean does not have any sisters...
Well it's ok.. I don't need to know.. I am just making the case that "if I openly speak and acknowledge things I find it hard to see how I am "afraid". My point was simple there were more fingers pointing back at TB in that regard.
and while some of us may feel defrauded by the excesses of the past I remain optimistic for its future so long as it continues to move more centricly towards a Gospel based message.
ntcc not matter what changes they make. If teaching false doctrines. There a cult. Once a cult always a cult.
Because they use the right words,hold a Bible,dress nice. Does not make them Gospel based Organization, It makes them a good outfit with wolf clothing on!
April
RB,
I am sorry if I offended you at all, that is not my intention. I would just like to see you escape that hell hole of a self-serving ministry. I really cannot believe people stay in that atmosphere. I am brother Bean's oldest brother, have been trying to talk sense into him for 15 years not. it does not work...oh well, maybe we can help someone else in ntcc escape!
btw- the kekel land deal infuriates me to no end, that man is a weasel! We all know Davis is corrupt, but the fact that Balaam (Kekel) takes financial reward from Balak (Davis) is beyond comprehension. He is nothing more than a gutless, opportunistic, greedy weasel in my book! And I like most people...lol
I firmly believe that if your going to run a cult you should have to start your own cult and find your own gullible followers ;)
TB
TB, is "brother" Bean's first name David?
Well.. TB you have not offended me.. though I hope you can apprecaite that I do not come to the same conclusions you do. I like your brother though.
Thanks, anonymous for confirming that. Is David Bean still married to the same sister that went to bible school with him?
Thanks RB, I can appreciate it, yet I do not understand it.
My brother was instrumental in leading me to the Lord in 95' He is one of the best guys I know, he is a truly sincere Christian with absolutely no desire for worldly advancement within the organization. I consider him one of my best friends even though he is in ntcc.
However, I have noticed that he has begun to distance himself from me now that he is in Graham and attending 'cult central'.
I have noticed that with sincerity comes a certain amount of gullibility as well. I remember the few times I met Davis face to face and the difference between him and a true Christian, he had that never ending scowl, and always an unpleasant word.
A couple things that stood out to me as a baby christian-
1. I visited Graham to check it out and see if I wanted to get involved with ntcc. My brother drove me around the compound and I saw the Cadillacs, the mansions and the gates to keep people out and I had severe reservations, he tried to calm me and tell me how great of a man "pastor" was and how he started dirt poor and has earned it all
2. In my brothers zeal he took me to pastor Davis' home and rang the doorbell. Davis answered the door and invited us into doorway, I noticed a lot of VERY expensive furniture. The following day my brother made me aware that he recieved a visit from an overseer who told him to never go to Davis's house again unannounced. As a baby christian I thought this to, was strange behavior for a "christian"
The next day we were driving through the compound and I saw a middle aged man mowing the lawn at Davis's house and another man taking out the trash. I questioned my brother on these things, why they had to do this..etc. His response was "they don't have to, they just want to be a blessing to the man of God"
The problem was that I had been attending a Calvary Chapel (one of the good ones) and the pastors kept stressing servant style leadership and the fact that it began with them, the ministers must be the servants of all!
Thank God I was protected by God at the time or I could have ended up in the same dire circumstances
It is funny, I have found that God allows us to do as we please and suffer the inevitable consequences for it. I.E. people can choose to waster there life in ntcc and will inevitably become poor, angry, bitter souls in the end..
the ntcc is a sad, sad place...it ruins good men and women
TB
The worst thing about that land deal was Olson's utterly lame explanation. I'm not exaggerating one bit here. Anyone who read Olson's explanation should be able to see what a scam that whole deal was. If there was any doubt in my mind about corruptness of that land deal, it was erased with Olson's explanation.
I'm not kidding here. You had to be a complete idiot to buy off on Olson's explanation. It was totally insulting to anyone who remotely possesses any intelligence. His explanation made it look like GOD couldn't make up his mind on who the land should go to. Then Olson kept saying that a private party bought this and the private party did that and the private party let the land remain in the NTCC name until which time that GOD could figure out what to do with the 39 acres.
Really???? Are you kidding me??? Olson single handedly did more to make the land deal look more suspicious and underhanded then it did from the start. When I read Olson's explanation I was flabbergasted. I was blown away. At that point, I felt like the biggest sucker on earth who'd been used by the NTCC from the very start.
Basically for those of you who don't know, the NTCC had 39 acres of land which was legally filed as property of the New Testament Christian Churches of America INC. As of 2008 the land had an estimated value of $373,000. In early 2004 right after the split, RWD directed Olson to sign all 39 acres of land over to Mike and Tanya Kekel as a gift and it read so on the property deed. NTCC INC gave all this land to the Kekels as a GIFT and it read that way on the deed. A GIFT!!!!
I don't care who the private party was referenced by Olson who purchased the land. No doubt it was RWD from what I understand. Once it was placed in the NTCC name it became the property of NTCC INC. I didn't know that church corporations were in the habit of giving away gifts valued at well over a QUARTER MILLION US DOLLARS!!!!! Ok, I gave over $50,000 dollars in tithe to the NTCC. I want it to be given back to me as a gift. I gave it and it's in the NTCCs name and I want it back.
Do y'all think that will ever happen? Hell will freeze over first. How about just 5 acres?
Oh but it's ok for someone to store 39 acres of land, valued at almost a HALF MILLION DOLLARS, in a non profit church corporation just to eventually give it away to Mike and Tanya Kekel as a gift? You NTCC people who have knowledge of this even are the biggest suckers on the entire planet.
If nothing else this proves that the NTCC leadership doesn't care jack about your souls. If the NTCC truly is the "last great hope for mankind" (which it isn't) then the NTCC's lack of good judgment ruined many souls with this selfish move. One long time NTCC pastor wrote that the land deal was the final straw which resulted in him and his family's departure from the NTCC for good.
Now we don't believe that leaving the NTCC translates to leaving God but many in the NTCC leadership says it does.
That land deal stinks to high heaven. If you guys in the NTCC think that you are leading souls to Christ, you're NOT!!! You are leading them to a corrupt leadership and the Bible says "if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".
I'm saved and I know that I am. Really??? Are you really??? Are the NTCC's shenanigans what salvation is all about? You guys ain't saving souls, your ruining souls because there are thousands of people who are so disgusted with the NTCC that they may never trust a pastor again because the NTCC proven to them that they can't.
I'll tell you this: There are tons of people who don't step foot into a church who I trust more then practically any NTCC pastor who I've ever met. I can't trust someone who regularly shows poor judgment.
Jeff
Amen Jeff!
TB
TB said...
The following day my brother made me aware that he received a visit from an overseer who told him to never go to Davis's house again unannounced.
Jeff said...
That is because RWD is the big cheese. How dare you go to the white house unannounced? That type of activity is beneath the big cheese master D. Your brother is a pawn to master D. Master D doesn't have time to entertain his minions. RWD said in conference that if he didn't invite you, don't come to his house. The big cheese!!!!! RWD is on a whole different level than the rest of you pawns. In a chess game the pawns are expendable and that is the way RWD sees you. You think I'm kidding. He sees himself as so far above everyone else in that church that it's like he is on another planet.
I can see it now. "Joe, you need to go talk to that brother. Do you know what he just did? He came knocking at my door!!! Doesn't he know who I am????? You better tell that BOY that he is never to do that again!!! If he does it again I'll embarrass him in front of the whole church and in fact you better put it out to the entire church during the very next service!!! I'll call him out if it happens again. How dare he. Come knocking at my door, the nerve!!!"
I'd spit on RWD's door step. Sniff up a big luger from the back of my throat and halk it right on out in front of Verna right on his front door step. Lay one of those lugers right on the windshield of his pimp daddy Cadillac. You know one of them green ones right after you just got over a good cold. Sling it right on his front window. You know, kind of like an oyster.
Sounds vulgar hey? Not as vulgar as RWD's attitude toward that innocent brother who just wanted him to meet one of his kin folks. I don't care if I don't want a thousand people comming over to my house all the time, (which I don't). The dude brings his own brother to meet me? Man that is an honor. The dude brought his family over for crying out loud. And RWD is supposed to be my Brother? I treat brand spanking new privates way better than RWD treats his church members.
Here comes the big luger. HHHHAAAAAK.... Right on his door step.
Jeff
You know the one leading right into his living room. Maybe he'd slip on it on his way out the door and that brother would have to help him get off the ground.
Jeff
Here is something else Jeff's daughter won't...
Let me tell you how I know for sure that with RWD and the NTCC leadership, it's not about saving souls. Please read what I'm about write and consider my words.
When Bro Bean brought his brother TB over to RWD's house, RWD may not have wanted company and I understand that. But when you are a Christian and your life is devoted to saving souls it's not about what you always want. You make sacrifices and deny yourself for the sake of others. So here is my logic.
RWD is a smart guy and I don't dispute that. He reads people and he often knows what makes people tick. RWD knew that if he gave Bro Bean's brother anything but a warm hearted, sincere welcome, (even though RWD didn't want someone coming over to his house) it could have an impact on TB's decision to have anything else to do with the NTCC. Then, in addition to that guaranteed fact, RWD is smart enough to know that when he sent someone to Bro Bean to notify him that he was wrong for going to RWD house, that TB would never have anything to do with the NTCC. You don't give a guy the cold shoulder and expect him to come back to your church and RWD knows that good and well.
So why didn't RWD just suck it up, invite the guy in for coffee and cookies, make him feel at home, and never say a word to Bro Bean about coming to his house uninvited?
Because it's not about souls with RWD. RWD simply didn't care if the mans brother ever came back to the NTCC and that is the reason he didn't even think twice about acting that way. The only thing that RWD cared about was not being bothered while making sure that it didn't happen again!!! All RWD is worried about is his privacy, the control he has over others, and making sure that the NTCC continues to bring in at least enough money to take care of his investments.
He doesn't have the time or patience for people to come over to his house unannounced, period.
How can anyone dispute what I just wrote? There could be nothing more logical in this world. If your church is the last hope for mankind, (which the NTCC has constantly maintained) and you care about souls, the last thing you will do is give a brand new guest the cold shoulder and that is exactly what he did to TB.
RWD doesn't care about souls he cares about control. He already has money so that is not as important to him as it is to have control over people.
Continued below...
Believe me when I tell you this, SOME PEOPLE LOVE POWER!!!!!! SOME PEOPLE LOVE POWER AND AUTHORITY!!!! SOME PEOPLE THRIVE ON HAVING POWER, AUTHORITY AND CONTROL OVER OTHERS BECAUSE IT'S LIKE AN EMOTIONAL HIGH.
RWD is that kind of guy and I'll guarantee it without doubt. I don't agree with it but I understand it and this is why? Because I used to work for a 3 Star General and everywhere we went people figuratively bowed down to that dude and because I was his enlisted escort / Aide, I got much of the same treatment. Everywhere we went people laid the red carpet out for us and because I was his right hand man, I got much of the same treatment. When people saw me they knew he wasn't far behind and I got treated like a King and I'm not kidding.
The difference between me and RWD is that I didn't misuse my authority and RWD does constantly. I didn't treat people like they were beneath me and RWD does constantly. You think I didn't have authority? Out of over 17,000 people in Second Infantry Division, (not because of my rank but because of my position) I was one of the most powerful people in the entire Division. Full Colonels and General Officers treated me with MUCH respect because of who I worked for. If I told a Brigade Commander that the General wanted something to happen it was like it was coming directly from the General himself because peole knew that I was his assistant. No one messed with me so I fully understand what it's like to have some SERIOUS Authority.
Well RWD has authority and he is a control freak and a bully and I know what I'm talking about. He doesn't care about souls. Listen to what I'm saying people. He cares about POWER, AUTHORITY, and CONTROL. These three and the greatest of these is none of them for a Christian servant. You can't understand others until you've walked in their shoes and where POWER, AUTHORITY and CONTROL is concerned I've walked in RWD's shoes. For the brief period of time that I had it (which was one year), I didn't let it get to my head. I'm currently working in a high level management position and I treat everyone with respect regardless of their position. And guess what, everyone I work with treats me the same way from the lowest to the highest. That is how you earn respect. Not by barking out orders. RWD is a control freak bully leader who is a good business man and that is all he is. I know guys like him because I work around one and no one respects him, they fear him. God help me to never become that kind of leader.
That is why I spit on RWD's front door step. My previous vulgar display of words was a deliberate show of disrespect toward RWD.
Jeff
Bro Jeff,
You and I have more and more in c ommon as I continue to digest these blogs.
I too worked for 3 3 Star Generals in Korea as an administrative assistant back in 1998.
I did not weld as much power as you, but your correct in stating that everyone LOWER in rank is a peon in his eyes but they do treat you with respect.
I got used to see one 2 star who used to ask me (I did not have to stand up to him because I worked for his boss) "Is the Boss In?"
Oh yea, when his wife walked in you better treat her with the same respect, stand up to the position of attention and give her the formal greeting of the day.
General Officers actually put up with a lot of slack and they are slow to judge. Go ahead and piss of a General Officer's wife, you'll be out of a job within the hour.
Depending on the offense, you coul d face discharge from the Army. Officer's wives do not play.
One time the Boss' wife approaches me and asks in a really sweet voice, "Will you be able to come to my reception at my house?"
You might as well kiss that day. She just gave you a direct order.
Now, Verona is a different animal, right?
That will make RWD Mad! Disrespect his wife! But maybe he does that all the time and does not consider that offensive.
Bro Johnson
ANON,
You state,
"NTCC is an evolving organism as is the rest of the Body of Christ, most of the changes are for the good, and while some of us may feel defrauded by the excesses of the past I remain optimistic for its future so long as it continues to move more centricly towards a Gospel based message".
I disagree. The Whole head is sick, and the Heart faint. That is exactly what I conveyed to MC Kekel.
Why should NTCC change? I thought you do not compromise Holiness. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. That is what used to be preached in NTCC.
Some trust in Chariots, Others in Horses, but I will TRUST in the Lord my God.
You remain optimistic for the future. In God we Trust, NOT NTCC!
NTCC was suppose to always have a Gospel based message. Now your splitting hairs.
Exactly WHAT is NTCC now? Which religious organization are they now closely associated with?
I'll tell you this - IT AINT HOLINESS!!! What is NTCC now? Baptist? Lutheren? Methodist? Prespeepeetarian? Catholic? Gothic? Calvanist? John Edwards? Oprah? Clinton? What?
If NTCC was like this 30 years ago I am sure this blog would cease to exist.
Bro Johnson
Anonymous said ...
It is understood by the court that Kristopher Moore made the requests for removal of his testimony because he "wanted to be right with God" and his conscience was troubled concerning the veracity of his statements in the publication of his multiple comments and posts articulating his testimonial of the incident of slamming and throwing of chairs and his dialogue with Pastor Davis after the incident occured at the last conference attended by Kristopher Moore.
Kristofer said ...
"It is understood by the court?" I suggest you go back and re-read what I said. You seem to have added a lot. You may have just perjured yourself, hence making your testimony from now on null and void.
Rev. Briggs,
Pastor Davis often does not personally approach people to discuss grievances one-on-one. His technique is often labelled bully-pulpiteering. I heard that one recent departee of long-time standing in the org left due to this. I had not premeditated my violent assault on the poor unsuspecting folding chair in that Conference, but after having expressed my grievances with Rev. Olson about the money that was saved up for a car in the Philippines that apparently had not been used for that, and the minister had even since left Panama, and was told that I didn't have to give the money that I gave, I thought that- among other answers from him- was unsatisfactory. And when I knew that my girlfriend under Mcdonald's ministry was struggling in the post-Denis NTCC, and I had to send her money to go to the doctor or dentist or to just buy soul-winning shoes, I thought, gee, where does World Missions money go? Pastor McDonald and his wife are not small like the girls in the bible seminary over there, who are very thin. Then she even told me that Sis McDonald was puzzled as to how the girls there could eat the way they do, and that she couldn't do that. Upon hearing that, I thought, she is kidding herself. As if they choose to eat like birds. That also let me know that apparently the pastor and his wife get to eat well, while the poor lady students eat very small meals. She even worked for the pastor once for I think something like 5 dollars a day plus meals, after he told her to quit her job. She told me she was eating well, coz she was eating the pastor's food that week. She was not trying to leak intelligence I don't think. She loves her pastors and is like that woman that was apparently malnourished, and would probably die of malnourishment before she complained. You see, NTCC has a culture that you don't have anything because you spent all your money and were unwise with your finances. Knowing that, who would ask for a hand-out from the clergy? Please don't tell me the other poor girl should have asked for help. Rev. Kekel told me that none of the money collected for world missions is used for "wasteful pastors and congregants for that matter." To be continued...
Well, somebody should take a seriously big cut out of his paycheck, coz it is wasteful in my eyes to buy a large house and two luxury cars when he could have used the money to help a poor starving girl in the Philippines. So, please don't tell me it was Denis, coz there was an awful lot of construction going on during the time that Denis supposedly was stealing the supposed daily ministration money that never got to her. Ha! I doubt there was such a fund then or now, pre- or post-Denis. And so I will now tell you my reason for such frustration. It is my estimation that- at best- Pastor Davis sent money to help the poor girls, and Denis stole it, but RW Davis was so busy building his mansion and houses for the comparitively well-off American ministers (I say, comparitively, as compared to the lifestyle of the poor filipinas) that he didn't care to govern over his flock, and he aloud a wolf to come in and hurt them and steal all the money. This is at best. I doubt that it was entirely Denis though. At worst, RW Davis simply didn't care about any of their welfare. So, upon hearing Rev. Mcdonald's anti-welfare speech, I slammed a chair after giving him proper respect and allowing him to finish his message, and interrupting the one who I thought was truly at the heart of the problem. I slammed it down and then said, "Should not the rich feed the poor? Should not those that live in mansions take care of the poor filipino workers? FEED YOUR CHILDREN!" And I left. I walked out, but I am pretty sure I remember seeing in the corner of my eye a black man reaching out to grab me, as I turned to leave. But for some reason I didn't run, and he didn't catch up to me until I was all the way on the other side of the field. I said what I wanted to say, and at that point I didn't want to be convinced to stay in NTCC. I wanted to leave the org. very badly, and had wanted to leave for some time, and I looked at that as my exit.
It sounds pretty similar to the Biblical account of Jesus getting mad at the money changers in the Temple. The example was totally different but the mentality of the man was similar. The temple had been turned into a den of thieves and so had the NTCC. The big money makers lived in mansions and forgot about the poor people who ate like birds. That would make me mad also. The NTCC could care about the poor and they love to quote, "the poor will always be with you". They totally ignore taking care of the fatherless and widow.
Jeff
If you think we in NTCC, trust all that is written here, then you will trust this statement also: "But light waves would still require a medium for transmission, and the actual purpose of the experiment was to determine the existence of that medium. The results speak for themselves: the Earth does not move. And even if the Earth did, the problems inherent in keeping it moving through this light medium called ether are overwhelmingly supportive of "Flat-Earth" theory."
This is how foolish your reportings/writings are to us.
So, just go join the "Flat Earth Society".
FES-NM
FES-NM said:
"This is how foolish your reportings/writings are to us.
So, just go join the "Flat Earth Society".
FES-NM
Don said:
We are so impressed with your knowledge of the flat earth theory, but we would like you to take some of your earthly wisdom and use it to shed some light on the double-standards that are practiced in the ntcc. Can you use that theory as an allegory to explain why God has changed his mind about making conferences mandatory?
Back when the earth was flat and your cult leader told you that if you were saved, you would find your way to conference, people would quit their jobs to adhere to davis doctrine. But now that the world is round it's ok to miss conferences. I guess God has changed his mind on this issue.
Back when the earth was flat your cult leader would tell you that if you went to secular schools of any kind you were disobeying the calling of God and we all know that "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance". Now it seems that since we discovered that the world is round we have to compensate for the medium in which light travels while the earth is moving so it looks like God has changed His mind again. Now not only can we send our rebellious grand child to secular college but we can do it using tithe payers money. That's almost as bad as tax payers footing the bill for abortions.
Back when the earth was flat, we used to think that the tv was really called a devil vision and the internet was called the sinner net and beer was devil juice and democrats were devil-crats. Now that we have gotten wise and God's light has shown on us and we have discovered that the world is round, we find that God has changed his mind about these things one more time. Now it's not only okay to watch TV but you can own one and allow your children to watch dvd's on it. Now it's not only okay to surf the internet, but you can have a computer with a dvd drive in it and watch movies on that. You can also have a face book page as long as you don't allow Xers to be your friends, "you need to snatch them out of the facebook garden by their tails, and cast them out" according to the wisdom of mck. Devil juice is probably still called devil juice and democrats might be a little bit evil but so are a lot of republicans.
The point of all this is that you are the one FES-NM that is living on a flat planet and meanwhile the earth just keeps on spinning regardless of your theories and your holier than thou attitude. The world is going to keep spinning because people are wising up to reality. If it looks like a cult, smells like a cult, sounds like a cult and feels like a cult, guess what?
Don and Ange
CHICKEN, could not stand the truth could you?
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