This is the real deal folks with names and everything. This is what puts folks in jail. R.W. Davis covered up the whole thing. Click the link and read the story. This trumps all. The NTCC is a CULT all the way and they've covered this stuff up for years. I knew the NTCC leadership was dirty but just not this dirty. It's not as much about the act it is about the cover-up by the NTCC leadership.
All I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Open your mind and read the story people. Click on the link below. Now this is a Smoking Gun. RWD would have turned this in to the proper authorities if he wanted to do the right thing, but that would have cut off his cash cow; the Military. Sooner or later the NTCC will no longer be able to fly under the radar and their time may have come with this one. Click the link folks.
http://ntccxerblog.blogspot.com/
Jeff
52 comments:
Jeff,
The time has come to reveal that a guy I invited out to church in Seoul, Korea made an unwanted advance towards me. He placed his hand on my leg in the dark while we were riding passenger in a van to pick up folks for church.
When I brought this to John MacDonald's attention, he brushed it off as if it was no big deal and I STILL had to go check on the guy to go to church!
In fact, the guy worked on a computer tower for MacDonald which ended up containing explict porographic material on it.
In the NTCC environment, it is easy for single, in shape military men to get manipulated by their contacts, preachers, and / or the preacher's wife.
As I was in Korea for a total of 10 years on two seperate tours, I consider myself somewhat of an expert on certain things dealing with the Korean culture.
(1) I am married to a beautiful Korean woman who suffered a miscarriage under relentless soul winning and mind control tactics by the Hannas
(2) The Reports of bathhouses are true. The bathouses in Korea are HUGE!! They are designed for not just males but whole families to go and wash. I have never been inside one, but I have seen the outside of them, right there in the middle of a rice paddy. Folks got to go wash somewhere.
(3) Not aware of homosexual bath houses in Korea, but I am sure they are there.
(4) I along with every other warm blooded Soldier, married or not, fell victim to the Korean Massage. There is nothing on earth quite like it, I wish I had one now for my back. Go to ANY on post AAFEES Barber shop, and there they are, the pretty Korean girls standing by to give you a haircut (and a few guys as well).
They always end the haircut with a massage of your neck and head, and it is incredible (kind of makes you want to go get one, eh?). you can also get a pedicure, manicure with one Korean girl on each hand and one or two massaging your back.
You can even elect to do a partial or full body massage with a facial. As A single guy, I always looked forward to this, as a married man, I would just ask for the haircut.
My main point is, Overseas the propensity for abuse or massages increases, for better or for worse.
Bro Johnson
As a surviving victim of child molestation / unwanted advances growing up I applaud the brother for coming forward with his testimony.
The brother and I both did not want these advances by men, his had digressed to third base while my experience in Korea was first base before I almost punched the guy out.
Homosexuality has always cloaked itself in the name of religion to use as a guise to hide the perversion. I cannot stand it; it is NOT natural and it IS an abomination, man or woman, against mankind.
RWD Removing a Molestor from Pastorial duties is not enough. He should have sent these low lifes to JAIL.
NTCC should be quaking in their boots right now.
Like I stated on an earlier post, And I do NOT proclaim myself to be a prophet, NTCC preachers will be held accountable for their actions. God grant it sooner rather than later!
Brother Johnson
Jeff,
I have been involved in ONE foot washing in my entire life.
It was a unique experience, not sexual at all but a testimony to the Youth Director who washed MANY feet at a Youth Group retreat many moons ago.
He washed everybody's feet in front of everybody and actually followed the example of Jesus.
There is a time and a place for this, at that time it was actually appropiate. We were taught servitude and that the Master is not Lord over his inheritance.
All in all it was kind of neat, not the abuse being documented right now.
On occasion I wash my wife's feet. Well, you can bet it does not end up just washing / massaging the feet!
Brother Johnson
Yes I remember Hummel, Broadnax, and I've heard of Rudy. I heard that Hummel was kicked out because of commiting a homosexual act after he was saved. That happened after that conference on the East Coast back in the 80's.
I was never under Broadnax or Rudy & was not really sure why they were no longer around. I remember Broadnax. One time Hummel preached revival for us & I was impressed with his energy and how he would bounce up and down while he was preaching!
I hope that all three of them are doing good, serving the Lord, and keeping the faith, in a church somewhere.
Anon said...
I hope that all three of them are doing good, serving the Lord, and keeping the faith, in a church somewhere.
Jeff said...
I hope all three of them are straight or they have no business being involved with any church. What they did to Don was real bad. I wouldn't trust them around my family and I wouldn't want any of them even touching my son. Not shaking his hand, slapping him on the back or anything. I wouldn't want them comming anywhere near my son say no less me. Dudes like that can't be trusted. If I caught one of them trying to touch my little boy in private places I'd probably try to break their neck. Bottom line.
Those guys are dirt and so is the NTCC.
Jeff
I understand what you are saying Jeff & I would definitely watch them around any of my family.
These accounts are some of the reasons that everyone that is supposed to be a "pastor" needs to be examined!!!
Some "pastors" won't really love you and visit you unless you PAY $$$money$$$ payments to "their" church.
There is an interesting scripture in Revelation about a church that "TRIED" those that called themselves apostles and found them liars.
Jeff, then why is the woman that this man mentioned by name one of the leaders in ntcc?
I don't know but they are going to churches and preaching around and are seen as leaders for the ntcc, if I'm not mistaken her husband is in the board of ntcc, while real men and women like the John and Rebecca Rodrigues in the phillipines are just put on the back burner so to speak.
Is that what you have to do to belong to the board? Wow and wow!!!
It is quite intriguing that Mrs Tieman who has been accused by Don is currently married to an assistant General overseer who is charged with overseeing and guiding the "field" preachers. I understand he is over the Central Division, in which Pastor Briggs is located.
Don, Do you have another witness to correlate your accusation of Tieman's wife? If so, that is grounds for revocation of the Ministerial license, is it not?
....The Plot Thickens...
God's Law of "Whatsoever a man (or woman) soweth, so shall he (she)reap" is not a respecter of persons.
Caesar
What did Don say about Ms. Tieman, I didn't catch it? Who is she married to?
Anon
If you click the link that Jeff put in the original post, it will take you to Don and Ange's blog, where Don published his story. Don's Story is that which Jeff, in turn, referenced in this particular post.
Ok so Ms. Tieman is a tramp but who is she married to now? You know, the one that you said goes around to preach? Is it still Mr. Tieman? I don't know these people.
Anon
Caesar, lets get to the bottom of this. According to Don, Ms. Tieman is a tramp. Is she still married to Mr. Tieman? This is a good plot and you seem to have some of the answers. I read Dons story and he seems to know what he is talking about. It must be true because why else would he tell it? If I were a dude who got caught up in what he did, I wouldn't tell it. Now you got me curious about this Tieman.
Anon
Ceasar said,
"Don, Do you have another witness to correlate your accusation of Tieman's wife? If so, that is grounds for revocation of the Ministerial license, is it not?"
Don and Ange said,
I reported this to Rev. Gaylord who in turn told RWD. R. W. Davis in turn came and removed the Tiemans from the church in Colorado Springs. My wife was also a member of the church and had knowledge of this.
Does anyone know who Ms. Tieman is married to now?
Anonymous said,
"Ok so Ms. Tieman is a tramp".
Don and Ange said,
I'm not sure that I would use those words although I have felt that way about her in the past. I also share some of the guilt in this story because I knew better at the time and let this go farther than I should have. While I feel that I did the right thing by reporting this incident, it should have been reported immediately before anyone got hurt.
She has to make her peace with God about this and weather she has or not is between her and God. I brought it up because of what she did in the aftermath. She did more to separate Ange and I than anyone. This was the single most hurtful thing that ever happened to me in my life.
Although very little was shown to me, I have to have forgiveness in my heart, and this is hard for me in this case. I think I have more pity for them than anything. If it was just me, maybe I would look at it differently, but she hurt Ange also by convincing her that she was disobeying the calling of God if she didn't go to ntcc bible school.
I do think it is very important in an abusive organization like the ntcc, to use names, dates and places with instances of blatant sin committed by those that held us to higher standards than they held themselves to.
You use the term tramp and you are entitled to use that term and do not need our permisson as we believe in freedom and do not want to restrict people from saying what is on their mind. I know that most of us were called that or worse from behind the pulpit at times.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange said...
I brought it up because of what she did in the aftermath. She did more to separate Ange and I than anyone.
Jeff said...
Ha, ha. Ok, then she is a Diabolical Tramp. LOL. I see what Anon was saying. I know you had a part in it but this was supposed to be a "Sanctified" woman "filled with the Holy Ghost" married to a minister. You weren't married and she was. What bothers me most about these people is that while the pastor is blasting people from behind the pulpit, the tramp wife is in the audience Amening her tail off. It's the same with what someone wrote on your blog about RWD. He hooks up with another woman other than his wife, then that same evening blasts the church and then the next day hooks up with the same woman all over again. You guys should stick that story on the front page.
What I can't stand is these hypocrites. Like I always say: I'm not the one claiming to be some super holy, perfect Christian who can't remember the last time I sinned and who's never missed God. These clowns talk about how spiritual they are and how spiritual and perfect you should be while the whole time living a double standard, hypocritical life. That is what I hate about the NTCC. So I have to side with Anon despite the fact that I understand your point. The word "TRAMP" was applicable. Once again, I do understand your point.
The more I learn about the NTCC, the more I can't stand them. That is why they did their best to keep church members from talking to other church members and ministers from other churches. Because they wanted to keep all this stuff hush, hush. That is why they no longer have monthly fellowship meetings ran by ordinary church pastors, and when they do have fellowship meetings they want some big wig like Jones or Ashmore or Olson to oversee it. That is the best way to keep raps on the information flow. Censor it by having a control freak on location to keep control of the situation.
Jeff
The funny thing about it all is that many times rwd has said that it is God who has put the leaders in the positions they are now.
So that means that the tiemans are put by God to lead others and be examples to those they go out and revive and preach. Maybe she can tell the ministers wives that they might go into temptation and they can not succumb to it, even if the preacher husband doesn't want to have sex with her, she has to stay pure in her heart. Not!
Just my take.
Some old folks might know her maiden name - Dobbins.
Who is she married to now? Still Tieman?
I do not know the entire story. But I know when the Tiemans were overseers of the Cheyenne,WY area. they had a hand in getting the Lizzargas to leave ntcc. Came in saying certain petty things were wrong. Like flowers in the church. Or having family events. Which if that was to happen in todays ntcc. All of that and much,much more is acceptable!
Anonymous said, "I do not know the entire story. But I know when the Tiemans were overseers of the Cheyenne,WY area. they had a hand in getting the Lizzargas to leave ntcc."
PRAISE THE LORD! NOW THAT'S A REVIVAL!
Don and Ange
Yes and yes, to anon. She is still married to mr. tieman. For all that I know this ntcc assistant overseer didn't hear well when rwd preached in conference that if a wife has the hots for another man she will do it again and again.
In regards to the alleged misconduct by Sis. Tieman years ago. No one actually knows the truth except she and her accuser. If the allegations are false then her accuser must be rebuked in the strongest of terms. If they are true then what is the point of bringing them up so long after the fact? The revelation of these events that allegedly happened so long ago can serve no purpose exept to humiliate that family. Regardless of wether these things happened or not the Tiemans will now be shadowed by these accusations where ever they go. Their son David now has to deal with the possible unfaithfulness of his mother and will feel shame for years to come.
I know the Tiemans well, and as far as I know they have been serving God faithfully for years, and there are no other such allegations against either of them. Supposing that these things are true, what ever happened to the concept of restoring the Brother or sister that is overtaken in a fault. Should we not as christians do all that we can to help them? The shame of it all is that this will be exploited as another example of the corruption in ntcc when many who will jump on the bandwagon have done things equally as shameful. I read the comment of the accuser that he felt that she was responsible for him not being able to marry his current wife. I wonder if that motivated him to bring her name up in this accusation. I hope that he finds satisfaction in knowing that he has probably destroyed the reputation of these people and that he has possibly placed a wedge in her relationship with her son. Many will read this and think that I am giving Sis.Tieman a pass, that is not true, if the allegations are true that God has delt with it. Im only suggesting that we should give her the same consideration, and benifit of the doubt in her repentence that we all would wish to have. May her accuser recieve the same consideration and grace for all of his past sins that he gives to this woman. He seems to try to come across as a victom in all of this, when he is just as responsible in every respect.
Anonymous said...
The revelation of these events that allegedly happened so long ago can serve no purpose exept to humiliate that family
or it could be a call to repentance
Or could be an eyeopener to those who've been fooled into believing that the NTCC is pure.
Why wasn't that consideration given to marshal, blumenthal and probably others that we don't know of.
I remember in one conference rwd talked about this minister that asked him to please let him stay in ntcc and assured davis that he didn't do the act of adultery and davis said that he didn't believe him.
I think that is double standard.
For some reason the tiemans are now the assistant general overseers of the central division.
First of all the situation with Marshall and Blumental are not good comparisons, those situations had to be exposed because their marriages were destroyed, how could it be explained that the spouses were still in without their husbands? I do believe that if there would have been repentence on the part of Marshall or Blumenthal then it would have been dealt with differently. The letter on Blumenthal did not even go out until after he had left. And as far as the Tieman family, grace and consideration does need to be shown. We are not responsible for the decisions of the leaders but we are responsible for the way that we react, and the scripture tells us that we should try to restore those that have failed, that does not include bringing up the dirty laundry 20 years later. SHAME ON YOU!
I occasionaly look at these blogs because I have many friends still in ntcc that I will contact if they ever leave, sometimes these blogs are helpful in that respect. But some people remind me of the divorced person that constantly stalks the spouse to see who they are with, where they go, what they do and so on. If we are no longer invested in ntcc then it is none of our business what they do just as it is none of their business as to what we do. Its much better just to serve God in some church where you are happy. To those that feel that they have a mandate from God to expose all the wrong in ntcc, OH COME ON! Do you really think that God needs your help to bring them down? that is so silly.
The only ones that are concerned are those that are still in and invested. They are the ones that will have to make the changes or leave. But God is not interested in our judgment on the leaders nor does he need our help in dealing with them. He keeps accurate records.
"We are not responsible for the decisions of the leaders but we are responsible for the way that we react, and the scripture tells us that we should try to restore those that have failed, that does not include bringing up the dirty laundry 20 years later. SHAME ON YOU!"
Everyone should be held to the same standard then! Don't spread lies about people who have left the org!
"don't spread lies about those that have left", that is such an easy accusation to make without having to back it up. I have seen it over and over that ntcc tries to destroy those that have left. Pray tell me what examples can be shown? when have they posted things on the web as venimous as what those that have left have said about them? when have letters gone out about those that have left quietly? what concrete evidence is there that ntcc is on a smear mission to destroy those that have left? I remember seeing many that had left and the only reason it was known is because they were missed, or because their spouses were still in. There was never one time that I can remember that someone left quietly and they were publicly shamed or slandered. It was only when after leaving they would try to tear down the organization or try to influence others. In those cases of course there was a responce. Please stop with the spurious accusations that they are trying to destroy people just because they have left. Those that think that ntcc is on a mission to destroy them are giving themselves way to much credit, it is more likely that ntcc hardly thinks of them at all. Have a great day!
Anonymous,
I am not Nichelle Tieman's accuser as an accuser is usually associated with false accusations, but I am the one that has revealed the truth about Nichelle Tieman. My name is Donald Tumioli, but you can call me Don if you want to. You are right in that one of the reasons that I went public with the Adultery story is that she destroyed my chances of getting married while in the ntcc. You are also right that I was just as guilty as her, however she was in a place of trust and was supposed to be an example to all. I never said I was a victim as far as she was concerned, I was a willing participant.
However, I was the one that did the right thing and repented, not only by asking God for forgiveness but by praying for them and when that didn't work and the sexual advances kept coming, I called Rev. Gaylord, who in turn told rwd. I know that there are two sides to every story and I welcome Nichelle to come on here and give her side.
Should I be concerned about ruining her family and driving wedges? They were not concerned about my future or the future of my wife. I should feel sorry for young David? What about the kids we never had? What about the 20 years or our lives that were lost? She destroyed both of our futures and now you are going to have the audacity to come on here and tell us that we are smearing them? We need to forgive?
We are on a mission now more than ever. The ntcc is a wicked and evil organization that has a history of ruining peoples lives. I wish that someone would have taken me aside and warned me of this before I ever got involved. My hope is that anyone considering going to the Tieman's church will do a google search and find this thread that you have commented on, so they can make their own decision. Maybe it will save someone else from years of heartache.
You come on here with your sanctimonious attitude, trying to tell us what we should or should not say. You came to the wrong place. We are not bound by a bunch of hypocritical rules and policies spewed out from behind the pulpit by a bunch of two faced vipers that are after your money. You want examples of smear campaigns that are ran by the ntcc? You need to visit Deborah's witness and take a closer look at this blog, and then go to factnet and you will find hundreds if not thousands of people who have left and their names have been smeared.
Kekel smears people all the time. He smeared Gregory and Deborah multiple times, publicly on his blog and then erased it. But that's ok, because Gregory made a back-up copy for you to read. He wrongfully and publicly accused Vic Johanson's daughter of having a baby out of wedlock. Talk about driving wedges between families. It's alright when it's not your family.
To be continued....
continued from above....
You got me a little stirred up anonymous, but that's okay because we are advocates of people having a voice and the freedom to be heard. Just don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. The ntcc is a glass house that is shattering as we speak. To this we shout from the hilltops: PRAISE THE LORD!!!! If the ntcc crumbles, thousands of people will be spared years of spiritual abuse and they will be freed to serve God willingly out of their own hearts and their chances of going to heaven will increase 100 fold if not 1000 fold. They will be able to live a normal life and pursue real Christianity without destroying their own families and friendships, they will have freedom to enjoy their salvation without asking permission from some sanctimonious, abusive jerk about who they can date, who they can call on the phone, who they can have over to their house to fellowship, who they can carpool with, which relatives they can visit, which relatives funerals they can attend, which relatives weddings can they go to. They can go to church without being screamed at and warned that if they are going to split hell wide open if they violate one of their non-biblical policies. They can allow their children to participate in normal activities that normal children everywhere get to participate in. They don't have to feel condemned for watching a football game on tv or even having a tv.
The ntcc calls people out by name from behind the pulpit every day. This is our church and our pulpit. Jeff allows us to speak our mind and we will do so as long as we are welcome. We also have our own blog which you are welcome to come visit, but it doesn't reach quite as many as this one does so we use both to get our message out. We hope that you will get over this and get on with your life. I know from looking at this thread that this subject has been eating away at you. We hope you will find peace in your life.
Don and Ange
"It was only when after leaving they would try to tear down the organization or try to influence others"
Influencing others is a broad term. Usually the ntccer instigates by asking why they left. The person tells them or informs them of an infraction .The ntccer then calls this person a gossiper. pointing out infractions is not tearing down. Ntcc is not above reproof especially when it is done to other churches.
"In regards to the alleged misconduct by Sis. Tieman years ago."
did you approach her privately about what she did?
If you bothered to read the story instead of asking ignorant questions you would already know that she came privately to my bedroom and knocked on the door and asked if she could "lay with me". I told her no in private. Now I am telling you publicly that there is no allegedly about this. There was a vote taken at the following conference if the spouse of an adulterous man or woman should be notified of their spouses impropriety and the vote was no. This is why this story has come back to public attention 20 years later and her husband is finding out about it 20 years later.
I think now that you have brought this back into the public spotlight that we are going to have to do another public thread about this so that we can give a little bit more credence to our "accusations" and "allegations". You see, it's okay for people to come on these blogs and smear me and my wife but when the shoe is on the other foot than people like you are appalled by us naming names.
Don and Ange
"To those that feel that they have a mandate from God to expose all the wrong in ntcc, OH COME ON! Do you really think that God needs your help to bring them down? that is so silly."
It's more about helping people avoid harm than "bringing them down." No one needs a "mandate from God" to warn his neighbor of a potential grave hazard. It's just common human decency. However, God does approve when one does so from the right motive.
If you think NTCC is so great, why did you leave? If it's not so great, maybe that information should be shared, huh? Many of us would have avoided substantial grief had we known a few key things in advance. Forewarned is forearmed!
Here's a mandate for you:
"Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body."
Don, Thanks for asknowledging your responsibility and motive for bringing up the events of so long ago with Nichelle Tieman. I am glad that you have repented, but why is it so hard for you to believe that she has repented? Just because she did not publicly hang the laundry out does not mean that she has not. Please dont take this in an agressive manner, but it sounds as if you are fighting a real battle with bitterness. If what you say is true about the history of you, your wife and ntcc then it is shameful on their part. They will answer for that. However we must leave that to God, the scripture teaches us that if we rejoice to see our enemy fall then God will remove his hand of chastizement from them. Just let God handle it my dear Brother. The bitterness that you seem to be experiencing will destroy you. You may have the right to be bitter, but it is not conducive to your spiritual life. One man said that bitterness is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. If you are praying for the Tieman's as you have said, then dont do anything to harm them. As far as the waisted years that you could have had with your wife, Well, God can restore the worm eaten years. Whatever happened He allowed for a purpose. Please go on for God and stop reliving the past. Your future is much too bright and glorious to be dimmed by bitter memories.
Blessings to you my Brtother.
Vic Johanson
you yourself may have the motive to warn others, but others have said they feel it a mandate from God to bring down ntcc. My question is that if is your motive only to warn then that is admirable, but I wonder if you are active in warning others that are on the verge of entering equally destructive cults like the Mormons, the Jehovah's whitnesses or Islam. A person may very well be in bonds in ntcc but their theology is christian. But there are many other groups that preach a different Christ than the Christ of the bible. That will damn a man's soul to hell. I am not saying that ntcc is as pure as the wind driven snow, I have no desire to defend them and if that is how you see my comments then I am not being clear in my communication. I did leave for a reason. I do feel that there is a lot of waisted time and energy spent on trying to tear down a group that is no more significant than a pimple on a fly's face. I mean how often do you run into someone that attends one of their churches? Those cults that I just mentioned are much more dangerous and worthy of our scrutiny. Blessings to you.
I warn people about NTCC because I have personal knowledge and experience regarding them. I suspect that ex- Mormons, Muslims, and JWs will do their part to warn others concerning their respective former connections, and since they are so much larger, as you observe, there should be no shortage.
NTCC's Christian theology is weak, given their neglect of the primary doctrine in the bible--grace. If there was a dearth of alternatives, I would worry about discouraging people from going there, but there isn't; there are plenty of places where a far purer gospel is being presented. If people don't hear an NTCC preacher screaming and spitting some polluted message of condemnation at them, it's not like they'll have no other opportunity to receive the truth. Hey, I rejoice whenever and wherever Christ is preached, but the demise of NTCC won't diminish that an iota. Those who are real will continue to preach (far more effectively), and the phonies will either continue their deceit elsewhere or, preferably, just shut up about God and find another lucrative racket.
I try to form no opinions about "mandates from God" that others say they have. All I know is my own heart (to some degree, anyway). However, I do believe that people can sincerely think they have such a mandate even if it's their own imagination, and if so, there isn't much their conscience will permit, other than to obey it. So I can't really hold it against them; can you? Shouldn't we do what we think is right?
Anyway, I won't mourn if those with the mandate succeed. NTCC deserves a place in the ash heap of church history. In the meantime, I'll share my experiences in the hope that some will be dissuaded from involvement with this pernicious group. That's my mandate, whether it's from God or not.
"The bitterness that you seem to be experiencing will destroy you."
I think Don speaks more from justifiable anger than bitterness. They're both powerful emotions, and anger can easily be misconstrued. I'm not the least bitter, but I haven't forgotten that my kids were deprived of normal childhoods either, and if what I say can prevent similar misery, it's worthwhile. And I'm sure Don hasn't forgotten that NTCC caused untold material and emotional hardship on both he and Ange. He is entitled to denounce them without any shame. We all are.
Anonymous says:
"The bitterness that you seem to be experiencing will destroy you. You may have the right to be bitter, but it is not conducive to your spiritual life."
Don and Ange said:
Thank you for looking out for me but I think you are missing the point of what we are trying to accomplish on these blogs.
The ntcc's mantra has always been to defuse an issue by redirecting the blame towards the wrong source. It's easy for someone else to say "your seething in bitterness" or "why not get on with life". This can be applied to just about anything that is discussed on this blog. You can say for example, Bro. Reed must have been bitter to publicly bring up some of the names of people that did him wrong. You can say that Gregory and Deborah Shunk are full of bitterness because they continue to expose the ntcc and it's leadership for their hypocrisy.
I know we are probably a little more "in your face" with our material. Our approach probably seems sarcastic and harsh. But let's look at the ntcc's approach and we might seem meek in comparison. They use the pulpit against their brethren to publicly ridicule and humiliate them so that they can control them and their wallets. We are talking about rwd and his henchmen.
We posted the Tieman thread so that others can see the hypocrisy that exists in the ntcc. Yes, it is personal. What the ntcc did to us is personal. They made it personal. Isaiah walked naked and barefoot for three years and I'm sure people told him, you need to get over your bitterness and get on with your life. Or did they tell John the Baptist, "Your bitterness is going to destroy you spiritually"? I'm not Isaiah or John the Baptist but I do feel that the right thing to do is to warn people and reveal the double standards and hypocrisy that exist in the ntcc. We have suffered greatly and if we can get the attention of others that are struggling and help them to realize that there is salvation outside of the ntcc then it's all worthwhile to us.
As for Nichelle and David Tieman, I have no idea if they repented or not. They never apologized to me. They never apologized to Ange. The same thing can be said about rwd. Does he apologize? Should we forget all the things he's done to people, the emotional and spiritual damage that he's caused? Should we get on with our lives and not say anything about the good people who have dedicated decades of their lives to God and the ntcc that he's just run off for no reason? We can forgive but we also feel it is our responsibility to warn folks.
Anonymous, I don't know who you are but I'm not trying to rebuke you and I am thankful that someone out there considers me a brother. We are not above reproof and it's healthy to receive criticism. I will take what you said to heart and pray about it.
Sincerely,
Don and Ange
Anonymous said:
"Just because she did not publicly hang the laundry out does not mean that she has not."
Don and Ange said:
I can speak volumes about the ntcc publicly hanging out laundry and not repenting. I don't feel the need to justify myself so we will spare everyone the exertion.
The biggest problem I see is that when an Xer stands up against individuals in the ntcc and puts their names out in public, so many people will totally disregard any wrong doing by the perpetrator, and will concentrate their efforts on finding fault with the wrong person. It's so important for the Xer to admit his or her involvement, It's so important for their motives to be revealed. Nobody ever requires this of the ntcc except those of us that are Xers. People that are on the inside getting abused tolerate it and never have the boldness to say anything about it with three exceptions that I know of. Brother Reed boldly confronted rwd in the presence of other board members concerning tk and her oriental heritage. And Rick Blumenthal also confronted rwd in the new thread on Deborah's witness blog. Gregory also confronted board members while he was still supposed to be a member of good standing. I'm sure Vic and some others did also but not sure of the details.
What I'm saying is that it's par for the course for people to defend those inside this abusive group and redirect all the scrutiny towards those that have left and gotten on with their lives. It's always us that are bitter. We are the ones that harbor bitterness in our lives. Could it be that we are just being real and transparent?
Anonymous, have you spoken to the Tieman's to see if they have any bitterness in their hearts? Have you advised them to not to let the bitterness destroy them? Have you even talked to them at all to see if they have anything to say about all this?
They all have "gotten on" with their lives and are probably not the least bit deterred by any of our writings. Most ntcc'rs are not allowed on the blogs anyway. These blogs are discredited by ntcc leadership and we are publicly called devils. Didn't mck once say that we needed to be pulled out of trees by our tails?
We are the filth of the earth, we are called all kinds of things to include blasphemers, God haters, apostates, reprobates and the list goes on. In turn when folks get kicked to the curb in the ntcc, we welcome them. The ntcc hates them and drags their name through the dirt and we welcome them to a new life where they can serve God and live in His grace and love. Would I rejoice if the walls came tumbling down? Yes I would. I would try to get all the Xers together for a huge camp meeting and rejoice that thousands of souls could now live for God according to the dictates of their conscience. They can live without the condemnation and rebuke and humiliation. They can do normal things and still make it to heaven. They can be themselves and God will still love them.
Don and Ange
I don't want to see people hurt and I'm not the least bit interested in the impossible task of "bringing the ntcc down". I do believe that when people leave the ntcc, it frees them up to pursue a normal life and in that life their chances of having a great relationship with God increase immensely. We encourage people to ditch the chains and keep Jesus. We know how abusive and controlling this group can be and we use real examples to show people how phony and hypocritical the ntcc is.
On this post anonymous said I was destroying the reputation of a family. In the ntcc people are told that when you point your finger at someone else, there are four pointing back at you. We've all seen similar instances where if somebody stuck up for a fallen minister or his wife, the ntcc would say they destroyed their own reputation and their own family. As we have so often been told to take personal responsibility for our actions is it so awful to expect the Tieman's to do the same thing?
I have been very honest about my past and have accepted responsibility for every thing I was involved in. I've publicly thrown my entire life out there for everyone to see. My employers and past friends can find out the most intimate details of my personal life. There were others involved in the abuse at Ft. Bragg and they have chosen to keep it inside. There are others that could have come forward and I don't blame them for staying silent. I have used my own shortcomings and failures to warn folks because I have been at the receiving end of way too much abuse and I know people still think that the ntcc is the last move of God on earth. I think I have earned the right to be transparent about my past and if that exposes an overseer and his wife in the ntcc, so be it. They are welcome and always will be welcome to share their side of things.
I don't take pleasure in the fall of the wicked and I don't hope for destruction. My objective is for every person in the ntcc that hasn't completely seared their conscience with a hot iron, would find their way to freedom and realize that God isn't a ruthless dictator sitting on his throne waiting for people to mess up so He can cast them into the lake of fire. Come and find Grace and mercy and peace in your life. It's a wonderful thing!
Don and Ange
To Vic Johanson, Don and Angie and others, As I said in an earlier post, it could be that your anger or perhaps bitterness is justified. But please examine your motives in saying what you say. many times when we retell hurtful situations of the past we as humans can tend to get angry all over again. No one can look into your hearts but carfully weigh every word that you say or write. Christ himself said that we will give account for every idle word that we speak. It is not good to justify our methods or comments by thinking that ntcc has done the same or worse in destroying the lives of others. No one can deny the harm that the leaders have done. But with God they are two seperate issues. Thier wrong is not a justification for us to respond in the wrong spirit. A person can be truthful but again we should check our motives. Remeber that God has PROMISED harsher judgment on preachers. The standard is higher and they will answer for everyone that they have harmed.
Hey gutless who said this: " Remeber that God has PROMISED harsher judgment on preachers. The standard is higher and they will answer for everyone that they have harmed."
Where were you when davis and kekel were trampling everyone and while davis and kekel continue to trample everyone?
You want to make yourself look super-spiritual while you try to silence those who will defend the defenseless?
YOU SUCK.
Get a backbone and a name.
Go to Washington and tell them to examine their hearts or shut up and go away.
I'm tired of useless spineless 'preachers' who want to come late to the party and tell everyone how it should be done. Meanwhile child molestation, abuse of kids, rampant misappropriation of funds, ruining of peoples faith in God and countless other sins abound in the ntcc.
You want to preach?
Get a spine and take on some real issues you fraud!
The hypocrites didn't like John the Baptist because he blasted their hypocrisy. Ya feel me?
"Remeber that God has PROMISED"
God PROMISED to judge Ahab and Jezebel too. Guess what? He used Jehu to accomplish that judgment.
God always has a voice. He will use those who are willing.
Why don't you try standing for Him? The first thing that Saul did as a king was to get mad. He was mad at the oppression of Israel. And he did something about it.
Why don't you try that? Instead you appoint yourself as a super-spiritual referee thinking you have a divine commission to get people off track of the main discussion. God is not the author of confusion.
God is seriously upset with these frauds peddling themselves off as 'preachers'. The New Testament records Christ Himself displaying great anger towards the hypocrites. I bet you would call His motives into question too. Sanctimonious. Why don't you look at your heart andwhy you are so comfortable allowing others to do all the work of standing up against hypocrisy. Why don't you take an honest look at the sins that God has shown you that you have swept under the carpet so you could stay safe and warm in your comfort zone of do nothing? Why don't you ask yourself what perversion is in you that you want to correct those who are willing to stand for Christ while giving a pass to the hypocrites. Maybe you're batting for the wrong side.
"Christ himself said that we will give account for every idle word that we speak."
Our words here are far from idle.
Wow, I just stumbled on this conversation. Maybe I should look at the recent comments bar every now and then, Ha, ha. There was mention made of us being angry. We'll the Bible says, "be ye angry and sin not". So correct me if I'm wrong, but my uninformed guess is that you can be angry and not sin? Do you think? Did I read that verse wrong? Just asking?
Jeff
Don,
I just checked the comments and found the need to respond to your last post. Once I get into the substance you will know which comments I have already posted. First of all I do post under Anonymous, the reason has nothing to do with my hiding under that or my being afraid to own my comments. The reason is that I am self employed and potential clients constantly google my name or business name and I do not want to loose a client because of the goings back and forth on here. My name is Joshua M. (which is my real name) So you may call me Joshua if you like. It is hard for me to understand how my last post made you so angry. I was simply trying to encourage you to examine your motives in what you do. I did my best to choose my words in a way that did not come across as agressive, and suddenly I am told that I suck and that I should stop posting. Well listen Don, the last time I checked you are not the administator of this blog. I have as much right to post as you do. Jeff Collins is the only one that can tell me to go away, but in spite of the fact that I do not agree with all he has said He is not afraid of an intelectual debate as you are. Your responce to a simple admonition to examine your motives is out of hand. I fear that I must have struck a cord with you. Now as far as you and Nichelle Tieman, I hate to beat this dead horse but I will one last time. I have questioned why you waited so long to bring it up. Your yourself have said that your motive was that she deneid you and you current wife the right to be together and that is part of the reason you brought it up. Well its not beyond reason to believe that you have lied about the whole thing. What better way to retaliate than to try to destroy their marriage after accusing her of destroying your chance for a happy marriage. (food for thought).
You have been inconsistant in you comments anyway. At one point on your blog you said that you did not have sex, only petted. And now you say that you did have sex. Which is it my friend? You claim to have told Pop Gaylord and nothing has been done. Well that could be either because you did not talk to him at all (which is more likely) or he simply did not believe you. A person that has been personally invloved is so many scandels as you looses credibility at some point. Its a shame that Pop is not hear to confirm or deny your story. How convenient! Why should it be taken for granted that you are telling the truth anyway? As far as we know the Tiemans have not been riddled with sexual scandel as you have and they are still serving God. You also said that she is welcome to respond whenever she pleases. Why should she do that? The burden is not on her to prove her innocence but it is on you to establish her guilt. Now as to the way you and others tend to respond to the simple comments that Ntcc is responsible for what they do as we are. Its amazing to me how that a simple biblical truth such as that brings such viseral reactions. It's not sufficient for you to allow God to handle it, and whenever Someone is critical of you or questions your motives you quickly respond with the attitude "yeah but there worse". I wonder if that is true. In all my time in ntcc I do not remember one instance of them going after anyone as you have gone after them. If indeed they do try to destroy others, its playground stuff compared to what you do. You accuse me of being self righteouss or santimonious for trying to inject some civility into the debate, Sir you are the one that is self righteouss feeling that you are so far above your enemies, in fact in your "self righteousness" you have become everything that you accuse them of being. You told me to just go away. well I may. But if I do it is not because I am afraid of a heated debate. It is because the scripture admonishes me not to argue with fools. If you are so blind by hatred that you refuse to even consider the possibility that your motives may not be right, you sir are very foolish. Joshua M.
Don,I checked the blog and saw that you responded to my previous comments and I want to take a moment and respond to what you said. My name is Joshua M.(MY REAL NAME) I normally post as anonymous, not because I am afraid of debate or I do not want to own my comments. I am self employed and in the age of internet any client may google my name or business and see these postings here. Its not conducive for them to see all the back and foth. Now about to your comments, I re read my posting and can not see why you were so upset becasue of the simple biblical admonition to examine your motives. I tried to choose the words carefully to encourage some self examination. But judging by your reaction I must have struck a nerve.
You responded by saying that I suck and should go away. Well the last time I checked Jeff Collins is the administrator of the blog. He can delete my comments anytime he wishes. Although I don't agree with all that he has said, he does seem fair and he is not afraid of an honest debate as you are. In regards to Nichelle Tieman, I hate to beat this dead horse again but I will. Tell me, why should it be taken for granted that you are telling the truth? You have said that she can respond but she has not. Why should she? The burden is not on her to prove innocence but it is on you to establish her guilt. The evidence that you have offered is week. First of all you have been inconsistant in your comments, at one point you said that no sex occured only petting and now you say that sex did occure. Which is it? You also said that at the time you spoke to Pop Gaylord and they were soon moved. Well that means nothing. In those days pastor's were moved frequently. Seeing that nothing was done in responce there are two possibilities, either you never spoke to Pop(which is more likely) or he did not believe you. Its a shame that he is not here to confirm or deny your story. (how convenient) As far as we know the Tiemans are serving God and are not known for sexual misconduct. On the other hand a person that has been followed by sexual scandel as you claim to be looses credibility at some point. And then there is the question of motive, you shared that one reason for bringing this up is because Nichelle Tieman denied you and your current wife your relationship. Well it is not beyond reason to believe that your motive is to destroy their marriage becasue you think she destroyed your opportunity for a happy marriage. What better way than to make an accusation of adultry? You also accused me of being so sanctimonious.Your the one that is trying to be santimonious. You hold yourself up as being so much better than ntcc when you do what you accuse them of doing. You say they are out to destroy people that have left. In all my time with them I do not remember such things. If their goal is to destroy others then it is child's play compared to what you do. In your self righteousness you refuse to leave them to God but feel that you must be the crusader against them. I am amazed how viseral the responce is when I try to inject some civility to the debate. When comments are made that we all are going to answer to God, and we should examine what we do, the responce generally is something like, "yeah but they are worse" How childish. I dont know if they are worse, When you examine their blogs, you dont find the venoum that comes from you Don. And lastly, you said I should go away. Well I may, If I do its not becasue im afraid of debate, it will be because the bible admonishes me not to argue with a fool. When you refuse to even consider that you may be in error that is foolishness. I began posting with the hope that there would be some examination on your part, but you are not interested in that. You are held in a prison of the past and I am sorry for you. Most of us that have left have gone on and are fine. I wish the same for you.
Can we be angry and sin not? Certainly we can Jeff. We just need to make sure we dont cross the line.
joshuamelendez66 said to Jeff:
"Can we be angry and sin not? Certainly we can Jeff. We just need to make sure we dont cross the line."
Don and Ange said:
Would you happen to know where that line is? Did Jesus cross it when he overthrew the money changer's tables and drove them out of the temple? We have never done anything that drastic. People so often concern themselves with our well being and imply that we are going too far. We are crossing the line. What we do, we do for the sake of others. They are not told the truth. Nobody will tell them about the crooked dealings, the adultery, fornication and homosexuality that takes place in the ntcc; the stealing and the lying, the spiritual abuse and destruction of souls.
All the ntcc'r gets to hear is flowery sermon's on how great their leaders are. They are warned not to do the things that the ntcc leadership are guilty of. They are not even aware that these things happened so joshuamelendez66 we are here to educate people and persuade them to take a closer look at their leaders. We are not here to spread rumors or to tell lies. Everything we contribute is true. Is it a sin to tell too much truth?
Are we crossing the line by calling out the hypocrites in the ntcc? Where is the line at? If you know where the line is at and you are sure of it, then maybe you should tell the ntcc where it's at so that they would know not to cross it. They cross the line all the time. They don't even have boundaries when it comes to rebuking and publicly humiliation. In fact if you tell them not to cross the line, you will be run out on a rail. You will be nothing more than pulpit fodder.
Don and Ange
To Vic Johanson, Don and Angie and others, As I said in an earlier post, it could be that your anger or perhaps bitterness is justified. But please examine your motives in saying what you say. many times when we retell hurtful situations of the past we as humans can tend to get angry all over again. No one can look into your hearts but carfully weigh every word that you say or write. Christ himself said that we will give account for every idle word that we speak. It is not good to justify our methods or comments by thinking that ntcc has done the same or worse in destroying the lives of others. No one can deny the harm that the leaders have done. But with God they are two seperate issues. Thier wrong is not a justification for us to respond in the wrong spirit. A person can be truthful but again we should check our motives. Remeber that God has PROMISED harsher judgment on preachers. The standard is higher and they will answer for everyone that they have harmed.
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