On his blog, Pastor Kekel referenced this statement...
"One of the biggest enemies of aging Ministers is their fear that they won't be taken care of in their old age. This fear causes them to resort to secular education and employment, abandoning the call of God; but the key is taking care of their old age, in their youth. Then, the wives go on jobs too, which is against the bible, and they find that the same spending habits that got them into the mess, rob them of happiness, even with a double income."
Jeff said...
This absolutely amazes me that Pastor Kekel would reference this paragraph. Here is the first piece of irony surrounding what was written. Pastor Kekel referenced a statement which mentioned secular college attendance as though it's a bad thing. His son is attending a secular college so in my opinion it's quite nervy for Pastor Kekel to even post such a statement. I know the Kekels say that Grant wasn't called and Grant is not saved but that is just an excuse given by them in order to cover up their failure as Christian parents. Personally I don't think they failed however, in conference, I listened to RWD say that you were a failure as a Christian parent if your child didn't go to the NTCCs Bible school. That means everyone to include the Kekels. Not only that but you are telling me that it's wrong for a minister to better himself by attending college? So your telling me that God doesn't want college students to be Christians or preachers? So if God had his way we'd shut down every college? So you can't be a minister and go to college part time but you can be the Kekel's son and go to college full time? Are you kidding me? It's my understanding that Pastor Kekel didn't author this statement but why would he even use it as reference material if he didn't share the same views?
And how in the world are you going to take care of your old age in your youth when you are spending every dime you earn just trying to start up a pioneer church or take over a church that doesn't have hardly any members in it? That is easy for Pastor Kekel to say when he has it made up in Graham having been handed the NTCCs biggest church on a silver platter with a never ending cash flow. Oh yeah, that is really easy for him to say but it's not so easy for the dudes and their wives out in the field. And then he writes "Then, the wives go on jobs too, which is against the bible".
Where in the bible does it say that? Proverbs Chapter 31? The last time I checked, Pro 31 commended women who worked by referring to them as "virtuous". And for the 99th time, being a "keeper at home" means to be a good house keeper. I looked it up in the Strongs concordance that my NTCC pastor told me to purchase. Being a keeper at home doesn't mean that a women can't work. The NTCC leadership makes up their own rules and then they lie by saying you've committed an offense against the Bible when in reality you've only gone against their rule and in this case it's a rule which can't be supported by scripture. If a women doesn't want to work thats fine. If the husband doesn't want her to work thats also fine but it's not fine when you make something up about the Bible that doesn't exist.
Their spending habits didn't get them into that mess, the NTCCs completely messed up system put them in that mess and has kept them in that mess. Make me the pastor of the Graham church and I'd also be rolling in dough like the Kekels. Send my out to start up a church from nothing, make me place huge percentage of my revenue into an escrow account that I have no control over, have me send yet another huge percentage of money to Graham and then have the nerve to tell me that I placed myself in a financial mess? What an insult. Any NTCCer who buys off on this notion is no more than a complete sucker and blind as a bat. How can you NTCC folks remain so ignorant? Yes I was ignorant also but I didn't have access to all this information which clearly displays what the NTCC is really all about.
WAKE UP FOLKS,
Jeff
165 comments:
Once again, Jeff, you are on the cutting edge of sanity, here. But let us recall that saying- "Rank has its privileges" ? And, oops! Jesus said this - Pharisees lay heavy burdens on other people that THEY would not lift with their little finger. Ouch. I wish some preacher would get in touch with reality there and be the Savanarola (sic) of the day.
"Labor NOT to be rich, cease from thine own wisdom.... If riches increase set your hear NOT upon them... and they that will be rich fall into many temptations" Its all there in the word. God does prosper people- but corrupted people cannot handle it. They become tyrannical rulers...
Well, lets see what all our other "thinking people" will say here... I can hardly wait. God values truth in the inward parts. He is not at all impressed by hypocrisy. Oops - do I hear a burning sound in Graham?
what has Tanya K. been doing for many,many years??? She has been out working on a job. She has been a teacher at ntcc"school".
So why is mike damning folks for these women for working outside the home. Notice he refers them as these mens wives. Not women as he refers to the men on there own. These womens husbands. No just the women get refered to there married title. Why,just to keep them in there place.
April
A "burning sound in Graham" I meant someone's conscience, or desire for the truth that "makes men free". Double-speak does not free. Anyway, I hereby prophesy to the wind "blow wind blow" in Graham WA. All the "seeds" they've planted, let them now rise and be in full form. today is Feb 22, 2011. Mark my words.
Jeff.. just to keep the thread honest.. your mistaken when you say he "wrote" the sentence. He told us at the beginning of the post that it was a sermon outline he found on the web. Someone else not affiliated with NTCC wrote it.
Thank you RB for clearing that up. I do endeavor to state accuracies here and I'm glad that you corrected me on this one. As a result I've reworded my statements to reflect your observation. Having said that I think I'm safe to say that Pastor Kekel explicitly shares the views of the author. Why else would he reference it if he didn't? I also think or rather (know) that the article was directed at some Pastors who've either recently left the NTCC or who've recently reorganized their priorities while remaining with the NTCC. The portion that I quoted was definitely directed at those pastors. I know of two who've somewhat recently left the NTCC because they've decided that taking care of their family was as important as trying to fulfill the NTCCs agenda i.e. the church building business AKA the accumulation of real estate business.
One particular NTCC Pastors requested that his church cut back to one less service a week, and his request was denied. Hardly anyone was ever showing up on Thursday and he wanted to eliminate that service and the NTCC leadership refused his request while giving him ultimatums. Like one more service a week is what salvation is all about.
Forget about the scripture "by grace are you saved". The NTCC has essentially reworded it. The NTCCs version of that scripture is "by the number of church services you attend are you saved and it must be at least 5 per week." Well this Pastor didn't adhere to Olson's and RWD's mandates and he stepped down and ultimately because of their attempt to control his life altogether, he left the NTCC completely. This Pastor is not the same one that I spoke of in my last thread.
Pastor Kekel referenced this article because he shares the sentiments of the author and specifically the portion that I quoted. I don't agree with it at all, especially considering who it was posted by. The Kekels have never had to worry about money or taking care of their family. A complete idiot could see that RWD has laid out the silver platter for his daughter and son in law. Tanya Kekel doesn't even know the meaning of the word, "sacrifice" and Mike has long since forgotten it's meaning because he's been married to Tanya for years so neither of the two can relate with the other NTCC pastors.
If Mike could truly relate with his brethren, he'd never have posted that article.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I needed to give clarification.
Jeff
Mr Briggs,
Would it suffice to say that NTCC has no death gratituity for surviving spouses?
What has NTCC set as policy for the displacement of Minister remains? What about the disposition? Can the surviving spouse choose where to bury their loved ones?
I'm choosing the high road on this question, due to my lack of knowledge on the inward policies of NTCC, so I am asking you, a minister in good standing with NTCC.
Suffice to say this was one of the reasons why a previous NTCC Minister left NTCC in that he asked questions like this and they could not give him an honest answer? He was concerned about the welfare of his wife in his eternal absence (knock on wood).
Can you also PLEASE help Mr. Kekel with his website? You have to agree it is a joke, for once and for all fix everything and be a legitamite website for once!
Bro Johnson
Mr. Briggs,
By the way you and I are now in the same time zone!
I like Mountain Time! I get to sleep in two hours from Eastern Standard Time.
I say Hooah!
Bro Johnson
Mr Briggs,
I stand Corrected, I am one hour ahead of you.
Texas is so big it could be it's own country!
Yea, your Central Standard Time for real!!
Hook em Horns!
(Sign of the devil)
That really would not go over very well in offical church greetings, would it?
Bro Johnson
Bro Jeff,
The atrocities of NTCC were staring at me in the face and I did not even know it:
NTCC has the mission in Panama pushed on the brink of extinction.
Read what Bro. Gonzalez wrote about on Kekel's so called "Good News" in Panama:
"We filled a yellow school bus, one of the short ones, and abouts 80 folks showed, but only half paid, so we had topay the difference".
WOW! SEE how hard it is for a NTCC Preacher to save money when they are always paying out of pocket due to unforseen events as described above?
"Then a demon jumped on the bus driver becuase he wanted to change the cost to $100 which made a demon get up on me and I wanted to give him 20 extra beatings instead of the 20 extra dollars".
This poor man, Bro Gonzo, has just about lost his sanity. He sees DEMONS possessing bus drivers.
Maybe he has Malaria or something. Makes me want to go to Panama to see Demon Possessed Bus Drivers! That would make a great horror movie script.
"which made a demon get up on me"
Bro Gonzo now is possessed of the devil. He wrote it folks, read it again and again. Or, is he schizo? I thought demons cannot possess a Christian?!?
Bro Gonzo goes on,
"I wanted to give him 20 extra beatings instead of the 20 extra dollars".
Don't beat me, Rev! But I know how you feel!
"It made me happy because I thought, I do those trips every week and no one gives me 100 dollars!"
See, folks! This is what Bro Jeff has been talking about in previous threads: NTCC leaves its victorious Ministers who preach the Truth to Youth in Holy Spirit Power BROKE and MINISTERS LIVING IN POVERTY.
Im not saying this fits the mold for every NTCC Minister, but this guy is clearly scraping by.
I'm sorry, but if your a Minister of NTCC and your worried about 100 Dollars, you have to seriously ask yourself, while you are still young - WHY DO I NOT HAVE ANY MONEY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS OF FAITHFULL SERVICE TO NTCC?
Bro Gonzo's wife may have a sweet voice now, but what happens when he (Bro Gonzo) dies? Does she have a sweet body to go with that sweet voice, because other than going into prostitution, what other money making choices does she have? Just to make a living?
Or, REMARRY the demon possessed bus driver!!
I don't think NTCC has a Minister's home for young widows with sweet voices. Maybe she can clean Tanya and Mike's Mansion.
Bro Gonzo then ends his horrifying ordeal by stating, and I quote,
"Sorry that I don´t write as often but I know you would believe that I am always busy and tired. It has come to the point that relaxing has become a duty".
Defeated. Worn Out. Giving in the Towel. Give this poor guy a Medal! He is worrying about his last 100 bucks, Probably needs to take Viagra, Red Bull, and whatever other caffine induced toxin just to stay awake.
He probaly does not have time to be intimate with his wife with a sweet voice (A Big Uh Oh!!)and has decided that it is now his duty to relax. Forget the wife, she cannot sweet talk me to do anything, Im too freakin TIRED!
This guy and his wife are not cut out for Missions work. Send them back to Graham for some R&R and retraining, they seriously, and he seriously needs some help.
Maybe Olson can fly down to Panama to verify the miracle of demon possession down there, seems to happen alot, and to HIS Ministers!
NTCC Ministers, I am asking you a serious question: How does NTCC reward you? (Hint: Bro Jeff's previous post). I don't know about you, but if I work like a dog I DESERVE time off, job recognition, a medal, a promotion, etc etc.
"God placed us in this world to USE IT, not to abuse it". - Quoted by a current NTCC Preacher.
(Continued from previous post)
Im sorry but you should reap the rewards for your labor, and don't try to throw that super spiritual pscho babbly "God will bless me in heaven" garbage quote either.
I say garbage because, yes, God will bless in the afterlife, but your in THIS LIFE now.
God is blessing RW Davis abundantly WITH MONEY! He is RICH!!
God is blessing MC Kekel and his wife WHO WORKS abundantly WITH MONEY! They are RICH!!
Why can't the same God who blesses MC Kekel and RW Davis and Grant, who's birth was foretold before the foundation of the world, who would make everything that was sinful in NTCC alright now, BLESS YOU WITH RICHES BEYOND YOUR WILDEST DREAMS!!!
Jealous, Aren't You?
Bro Johnson
"T Perez" writes on Kekels Kiss Up To Me Blog something I thought was worth reprinting:
"I even consider how the hobbies you have pursued have been a blessing in the ministry and I think it is time to reevaluate those. The ones that are useful need to be pursued with greater diligence and the ones that have no value need to be dropped."
So, this T Perez, whomever he is, SEES Kekel pursuing HOBBIES.
Do trips to Europe constitue hobbies too?
Do weak minded brothers constitue hobbies to him and Tonya?
How about Winterfest?
How about your son playing sports?
If your an NTCC Minister, you have to be thinking, go ahead! Be honest with yourself and realize,
ALL OF KEKEL'S HOBBIES HAVE NO VALUE AND NEED TO BE DROPPED!!!
I AM SERVING GOD WITH ALL OF MY HEART BUT MY LEADER HAS HOBBIES AND IS NOT. HE IS PLAYING AROUND WITH MY CAREER
KEKEL CAN GET AWAY WITH THINGS BECAUSE HE IS DAVIS' SON IN LAW BUT I CANNOT
GRANT KEKEL CAN PLAY FOOTBALL BUT MY SON CANNOT.
KEKEL HAS BEEN AT GRAHAM A LONG LONG TIME
KEKEL HAS MONEY - MY MONEY - AND I DO NOT!!
I challenge ANY NTCC preacher to refute these statements with FACTS!!!
Bro J quoted...
"We filled a yellow school bus, one of the short ones, and abouts 80 folks showed, but only half paid, so we had to pay the difference".
"Then a demon jumped on the bus driver because he wanted to change the cost to $100 which made a demon get up on me and I wanted to give him 20 extra beatings instead of the 20 extra dollars".
Jeff said...
This guy has issues. And he is looking out for the souls of people? You've got to be kidding me? All I can say is WOW! A demon? Are you seriou? He's been following the NTCC way for too long. He can't even think straight and I'm being serious.
Jeff.
Jeff, thanks for the correction!
Sgt Johnson, yes, I can be burried anywhere I or my wife decide to bury me/myself. No, there is no "burial" policy in effect.
Thanks for the recommendation on the web site I always am available to help and in fact have helped several people with their sites and blogs.
Just off topic record, I do the web blog for the USS Wasp CV7 when time allows. This was the ship my grandfather served on and was KIA in WWII. Check it out sometime.
www.usswaspcv7.org the graphics and such are mine. The problem with the site is that I can't get content so it kind of sits there until the Stinger organization gives me something to post.
RB - why are you such a braggart?
Johnson - did you ever think T. Perez could be a lady?
Anonymous said...
RB - why are you such a braggart?
Johnson - did you ever think T. Perez could be a lady?
Jeff said...
A man is not a braggart just because he stated relevant facts about himself as it pertains to the discussion. I'm not too bad at building computers and that happens to be a fact. That is not bragging if someone made reference to computer hardware. It happens to be a hobby that I'm somewhat decent at. Oh well, you can't please everyone. I'm certainly not trying to please the NTCC. Those days are over.
Jeff
We agree again Jeff... I do have a question for the Anon person was Paul a Braggart when he said "I am what I am by the grace of God?"
Why are you such a coward?
It seems to me that those last eight (8) bullet points in the Sermon by Pastor Kekel are his own words.
The fourth bullet point makes reference to "the article from the internet"
It would be kinda stupid for a guy writing an article on the internet, to state "the article from the internet" inside of his own article.
I don't know. I didn't do too good in English grammar class, but thats what it looks like to me.
The point about about aging ministers and wives on the job certainly sounds like something Pastor Kekel would say and we all know that it is what NTCC teaches as doctrine. Any woman who works outside the home is rebellious as a witch. We know rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. That goes for cutting your hair too.
Caesar
ANON,
Yes, It did occur to me that T Perez, but it is nothing to get bent out of shape on.
Mr. Briggs, Belated Thank Yous to your patriotic family for the ultimate sacrifice of your Grandfather. May he Rest in Eternal Glory and Peace.
Really, the NTCC website needs some help but some of the stuff Kekel posts just blows me away.
To each his own, I guess!!
Regards,
Bro Johnson
Paul also said he laboured working with his own hands. And for the record I spelled labour right because that is the way it's written in the King James version. Was it a boast that Paul said that he did labour with his own hands. It seemed to me that Paul was just stating the facts. Paul did labour with his own hands and he wanted people to understand the type of conditions that an apostle lived under.
That in itself is another subject. Paul was a preacher of the Gospel but he also worked as a means to provide for himself. There is a reference of that made in the Bible in more then one place. There is nothing wrong or disgraceful with an Apostle working and laboring to provide for himself. I looked that word up in the Strongs Concordance and one of the definitions is "of bodily labour". That means that he did more then just preach and put together messages. WOW. What a novel concept.
There is nothing wrong with a minister of the Gospel working on a job in addition to being a minister rather than being, (and I quote the NTCC as saying), "FULL TIME".
If Paul the Apostle wasn't to good or wrong too work on a job then neither is an NTCC pastor. Now don't misunderstand my point people. I know there are plenty of preachers who don't work on a job but a preacher isn't less of a preacher or wrong if he does. The NTCC has that all mixed up. '
RWD and the NTCC leadership would have blasted Paul while saying that he'd forsaken his calling to work on a job and that he should be "FULL TIME". Well you are about 2000 years too late NTCC leadership because Paul was around long before you were and I think he was right. How many books of the Bible did you write Mr. RWD and Mr. Kekel? Oh I forgot Paul lived under different conditions and during a different time right? WRONG!!! God don't change. If it was good enough for Paul to do, then it's good enough for an NTCC preacher to do now and he is not one bit wrong for doing it.
If you NTCC ministers are struggling to keep enough money then you need to go out and labour on a job like Paul did. With your own hands. Ah forget it; what did old Paul know anyway. Most of you guys won't listen. If you want to be full time that is great and your brethren aren't wrong if they don't but you are wrong for saying they are. So the only one who is wrong is the self righteous super holy person who puts down another minister because he works on a job. For your sake (NTCC leadership) I hope God doesn't call Paul forward when it's time for you to meet your maker because if God decides to show an image of Paul working on a job, you will be condemned for judging your brethren who've done the same.
continued below...
RB said:
"Just off topic record, I do the web blog for the USS Wasp CV7 when time allows. This was the ship my grandfather served on and was KIA in WWII. Check it out sometime."
Don and Ange said:
Putting disagreements aside, that is a very informative, interesting and well structured blog. I'm glad your Grandfather was able to receive those letters and write back to your Grandmother before he died.
Your website is a very constructive and meaningful venue for survivors and relatives of the USS wasp. Hope you connect with lots of folks that share in the history of that Carrier and her crew.
Don and Ange
PS: This is a repost because I got my tongue wrapped around my eye-tooth and couldn't see what I was saying.
Continued from above...
Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Jeff said... They will also be judged for saying that women can work because it's clear that Paul "wrought" together with Priscilla and Aquilla because the Bible says that "THEY" were tentmakers. So all three of them worked at their quote, "OCCUPATION". On my goodness, what sinners they were. They all had a job. Priscilla was a "working woman" and Paul and Aquilla weren't full time. I guess Paul should have read Pastor Kekel's blog before he went to work with a woman, namely Priscilla. Oh, and they didn't even have a big church building that required a lot of money for upkeep. In Romans 16, the Bible says they had church in their house. Boy would Priscilla and Aquilla have done well to consult RWD. RWD would have told them they needed to have 5 services a week so they could bring in enough money to get a church building.
Paul, Priscilla and Aquilla did it all wrong. And why did the Bible, in Rom 16, mention Pricilla's name first. RWD wouldn't have that; the mans name should always go first. Boy did Priscilla 1, Aquilla 2, and Paul have it all backwards. They sure could have used old RWD to get them straight.
Boy it's good to know the Bible and if that was a boast than so be it. It is what it is. The NTCC leadership doesn't like having a dude around that knows the Bible like I do, especially being that I can think on my own. A guy like me is a threat to expose all their false teachings. I quoted the Bible didn't I? Am I wrong for knowing the Bible? Didn't Paul have a "JOB"? YES!!! Didn't Priscilla have one too? YES!!! Just like the virtuous woman in Pro 31. They did as long as you are reading the same Bible as I am. The NTCC needs a reformation and I'm Martin Jeffrey Luther and this is the Protestant Reformation. I'm rising up against the crooked churches of this day just like Martin Luther. Martin was the man. He stood against the Catholic Church and I'm standing against the NTCC with truth and power. Power to the people and down with the high and mighty nepotism perpetuated by the NTCC leadership. Down with the family business under the disguise of a church who take from the poor to give to the rich. What, I'm wrong? You better wake up because it's just like the Robin Hood story and if you think I'm kidding I'm not. The Robin Hood story and the NTCC story are very, very, very, similar. I'm like Martin Luther and Robin Hood put together. Expose the rich and empower the poor with knowledge and willpower.
Jeff
Jeff said,
"Paul was a preacher of the Gospel but he also worked as a means to provide for himself."
Don and Ange said,
What we have here is another ntcc doctrine taken to the extreme. We see very little emphasis anywhere in the New Testament of Pastors working or not working, or of women working or not working, or of people paying tithe. What we see in the ntcc is a doctrine that revolves around so many rules and each one is taken to the extreme.
The ntcc practices sensationalism. Every policy and every doctrine they preach is sensational. If you go along with it, you are in and you have a place in heaven. Don't ever do it begrudgingly, and don't ever argue or share an opposing point of view. If you don't go along with it, you are not one of them and you therefore are lost and on your way to hell.
The ntcc takes the literal meaning of every scripture except when it is something that rubs them wrong and then they find another scripture to justify their wrong-doing.
Not only do they find scriptures to justify what is wrong but they also have catch phrases to justify what is right and wrong. "It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than for permission". "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!" That sounds good, but there are scriptures that must be taken in context. You can say "All Christians pay tithe" till the cows come home, and you can preach that it is a prerequisite for going to heaven but what do the New Testament scriptures really say? Many argue that tithe was spoken of before the law. So was circumcision. So was the Sabbath. So were the sacrifices and offerings that were done away with in the new covenant.
I believe that serving God was never intended to be a drudgery, nor is God a cruel task master. Most ministers that leave the ntcc are run off and spoken evil of by the ntcc leadership or lack thereof, after giving decades of unblemished service to them. This isn't God's plan.
Don and Ange
If I read correctly, Paul also had a very expensive and valuable "secular" education.
Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Seems Paul is 0 for 2 in the NTCC doctrine batting cage.
Caesar
Preach!!! Amen!!! Where are the lizards when you need them? Jeff is smokin hot tonight.
I don't think that the Apostle Paul would roll out the red carpet for R.W. Davis the Super Apostle. Paul would probably rebuke him for being Super Spiritual and not practicing what he preaches. For not showing the fruit of the Spirit. For hating rather than loving his loyal subjects.
These are some really good points being made by Jeff! It takes work to dig this stuff out. I commend you sir.
Don... thanks for the cudo's on the Wasp site. I just want to tell a side story if you guys don't mind. I wrote that letter almost 4 years ago and post it every veteran's day as a tribute to my grandfather. After setting up the Wasp site I posted it there and at Christmas time got an email from my grandfathers, brothers, grandson. That whole part of the family was lost to us after WWII because my grandmother died some years later and my mother was only 2 when it all happened so she only knew a few names and nothing more. Since then my cousin and I have written back and forth and he has filled me in on family history on my grandfathers side going back to the Revolutionary War. It's fantastic.
Anonymous said...
These are some really good points being made by Jeff! It takes work to dig this stuff out. I commend you sir.
Jeff said...
Thanks for the complement but it doesn't take as much work as you might think. The one thing that did happen in the NTCC was that I learned the Bible. Inside and out. I color coded it from Genesis to Revelation. You take my memory, and the Bible on-line, and all I have to do is cut and paste. I remember the scriptures and I cut and paste them as they apply. I don't like using scripture too much on this blog but sometimes it's necessary.
The NTCC has some of this stuff all wrong or the Bible is wrong, one or the other. This notion that a Minister must be full time is a bunch of complete garbage. Mayers was better when he wasn't full time. He always had issues, but he really got bad when he had nothing else to do other than figure out ways to try and keep us busy. After a while he was always worried about money because he didn't make any of his own. Paul was never like that and the NTCC has it all backwards. Here is proof.
2 Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Jeff said...
So it's wrong to have a job? And Paul had one? Paul never had a problem working and an NTCC preacher shouldn't either and neither should the NTCC leadership. In conference RWD said, "If you don't have enough money, go to the people". "Paul said, he worked with his own hands and he had a job". I know that rest of the Bible where it talks about sowing spiritual things and reaping carnal things. I understand that but it doesn't say you can't work in the process because Paul was a perfect example of someone who did it, and he refused to accept money from the Corinthians. Do I need to paste that scripture also? I didn't think so.
Many NTCC ministers think that the only way they should get money is from the people and there could be nothing further from the truth.
Jeff
Paul was a perfect example of someone who did it, and he refused to accept money from the Corinthians.
Jeff,
If I recall, George Washington did the same thing. The First President refused a paycheck initially, because he was a self made man thanks to his dozens of slaves.
Washington had slaves his whole life, so he had an income coming in. He knew where his wealth came from.
All folks in NTCC are slaves. RW Davis, Kekel, Olson and a few of other elites should know where their wealth comes from. THEY SHOULD GIVE UP THEIR PAYCHECKS!! They are already fat and happy.
What you may not know about Washington is that, even though he had slaves, he took good care of them.
He provided Medical Aid and expenses to his slaves. Does NTCC do that to their preachers? NO!!
He recognized slave marriages and the Union of Marriage. NTCC pushes you to get remarried if you and your wife do not agree.
Finally, in his will, Washington dicated that ALL of his slaves be set free.
NTCC does not set folks free but embraces them in bondage.
Did you know also that many of Washington's free slaves took on their Master's last name.
Would you want your last name to be DAVIS or KEKEL? Or OLSON? Or BARNES?
Bro Johnson
Jeff.. I just needed to drop in on this one. These verses are not meant to spam as you will see but I think your assessment of Paul and his motivations for working are wrong. Neither do I believe he was of the same feeling. That preachers should not dedicate themselves to fulltime ministry.
1Co 9:3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
1Co 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
1Co 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
1Co 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
1Co 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
1Co 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
1Co 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
The funny thing about this is that the very reason why Paul refused support was questioned during his lifetime as being a reason he was not a man of God.
Now it is supposed to be a mark of a man of God.
Just funny that's all.
Bro Johnson said...
RW Davis, Kekel, Olson and a few of other elites should know where their wealth comes from. THEY SHOULD GIVE UP THEIR PAYCHECKS!! They are already fat and happy.
Jeff said...
It's my understanding that RWD already gave up his paycheck years ago. He doesn't need it anymore. He already got rich off the slaves who he used to get the money he invested in all kinds of real-estate deals. Now he has a continual cash flow from his properties which he rents to folks in his church. There is no telling how much property he owns.
The bottom line is, whether he now gets money from the church is of no relevance. If a bunch of people give me $500.000 and I turn into $50,000,000 by investing it, then my fortune came from the original $500,000 that came from the people in the first place. It doesn't matter if I ever take another dime from them again.
Now having said that, I don't agree with the means by which RWD got the money in the first place however he is a whole lot slicker and smarter than his pastors. If I were one of his pastors, Graham Washington wouldn't get a dime out of my church.
Why in the world do you think RWD started the NTCC? It wasn't about holiness. That is what he says but his actions clearly show that it had nothing to do with it. It was about him being in control and in charge of everything most certainly and most importantly to include the money. He said he prayed to become a millionaire and what better way than to be at the very top of the money chain.
RWD finally got so rich that he didn't need to get money from the church any longer. It became more important for him to see Mike and Tanya duplicate what he'd already started. And in an attempt to falsely prove that he, (RWD) wasn't money hungry, he stopped accepting money from the church. It was no more than a smoke screen, but a lot of people bought off on it. That is how I see it based on the information that different sources have shared with me.
Now people say, "pastor Davis" doesn't even receive money from the church, he is not after our money".
Well who in the world do you think the corporation belong to? Who in the world do you think has the most say on what happens to the corporate assets and the corporate money? He may not be receiving it directly in an account in his own name but being that it goes to NTCC INC. he has control of it anyway. So many NTCC folks are so stupid. If you are an NTCC pastor, stop sending so much of the money that comes into your church to Graham and stop depositing so much of the money that comes into your church into an escrow account that you have no control of. Be like RWD you idiots!!! Start your own church and incorporate it like RWD did, serve God and stop putting the Kekel's son through college while funding the NTCC real-estate agenda.
Jeff
RB said...
Jeff.. I just needed to drop in on this one. These verses are not meant to spam as you will see but I think your assessment of Paul and his motivations for working are wrong. Neither do I believe he was of the same feeling. That preachers should not dedicate themselves to full time ministry.
RB also posted some good verses...
Jeff said...
I understand Pastor Briggs, but that does not mean that a pastor is wrong for having a job. That was my point all along. Paul did frequently hold down jobs. Was he wrong?
Not only that but it also doesn't justify a preacher accepting all kinds of money from poor folks in his church while he becomes a millionaire. Paul never suggested that. Paul never suggested that the rich should take from the poor while the poor go without and the rich Apostles / Pastors live in mansions. Being provided for and the rich taking from the poor while mandating that it be so are two totally different things.
Many Pastors have turned the church into a money making, wealth accumulating business. The problem is they will tell really poor folks in their church to give till it hurts while the pastor just gets richer.
Jeff
Hey, someone posted on Greg n Deb's blog a quote from Rev Ashmore in the comments about Pastor Kekel's fight or flight sermon.
That quote really seems to fly in the face of Pastor Kekel's recent sermon outline on his blog.
I wonder what that's all about?
I agree Jeff.
Greg had wanted a response to my take on the "tithe" issue. I wrote one article in a series that I am working on . When you get a chance please read it. Here is the link (to save on space).
http://ntccpasadenatx.org/blogs2/?p=1063
Rev. Ashmore's quote is to preachers charged out with churches and congregation of laity.
Rev. Kekel's sermon was to a mix of laity, and clergy, as well as seminary students.
You always preach to your audience. Their needs will be different in a Seminary environment then in a local church. But the outline was posted to speak to those not able to be there to hear it for themselves.
It's kind of like the Pauline Epistles vs. the Pastoral Epistles. Different audiences. Both get information out of either writing. But the focus of the messages is more pertenant and provoking in it's intended audience then anyone else.
RB said...
Greg had wanted a response to my take on the "tithe" issue. I wrote one article in a series that I am working on . When you get a chance please read it. Here is the link (to save on space).
Jeff said...
I went to the link and read your article. I applaud your passion and approach. Now here is my take Pastor Briggs. First, when Jesus was addressing the Pharisees he said, (as you quoted) "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,"
Who was he addressing? The scribes and Pharisees. Of what religious persuasion were they? They were Jews and the key part, (for the sake of this discussion) as Christ clearly stated, "they had omitted the weightier matters of the ((((LAW)))))", tithe being included in that category. He was addressing Jews who were still under the Law and Jesus hadn't died yet and the dispensation of grace hadn't yet begun. Gentiles and Christians didn't at that time nor do they now fall in that category nor are they under the law. Because Christ referenced tithe in the same category, tithe was a matter which was included in the Law as is clearly indicated by Christs statement.
Now whether or not tithing was practiced by anyone prior to the institution of the Law is of no consequence. Sure it was; Abraham gave away a tenth of his spoils. That doesn't mean that he gave away a tenth of everything that he ever earned or had. Tithing was however clearly stated as a mandate under the law. So if God made tithing very clear as a mandate under the law (which he did), then logically why would God have never mentioned it as a "mandate" throughout the entire New Testament? God didn't leave anything up to guess work or speculation and the Bible talks about every thing you can dream of in detail, and God just decided not to do the same with tithing in the New Testament?
There is nothing in the New Testament which suggests that it should have been carried over from the Law other then pure speculation. No where in the New Testament did any of the Apostles state that Tithing was carried over from the Law. They simply never said it. They talked about not committing adultery, and not committing theft and that we love each other and that we take care of the fatherless and widow, but it's rather strange that if God intended to carry over tithing from the Law that the Apostles never said that Christians have to do it? Preachers address Tithing more than any other subject but why is it, if it is a heaven or hell issue, that the Apostles never mentioned it as a mandate?
Now before I go any further, there is no NTCC preacher who's church that I was ever in who will say that I ever had a problem with paying tithe or that I missed paying one dime of it. It never happened but the fact is, I just don't agree that the scriptures you referenced can justify the notion that tithing is a mandate under the dispensation of grace for the very reasons that I've stated.
You said it was around before the Law. Yes it was and? Is that in itself cause to conclusively confirm with categorical, logical certainty that tithing is still a mandate? No way, not even close. Speculation, but nothing that would remotely parallel proof. Because Jesus mentioned it to the Jews as a part of the Law? That is certainly not proof that it would still be a mandate under grace. Nowhere even close.
The fact is not one scripture that you referenced said one single word that could even remotely be interpreted as saying, "TITHING IS STILL A MANDATE UNDER THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE".
Continued below...
RB said...
Greg had wanted a response to my take on the "tithe" issue. I wrote one article in a series that I am working on . When you get a chance please read it. Here is the link (to save on space).
Jeff said...
I went to the link and read your article. I applaud your passion and approach. Now here is my take Pastor Briggs. First, when Jesus was addressing the Pharisees he said, (as you quoted) "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,"
Who was he addressing? The scribes and Pharisees. Of what religious persuasion were they? They were Jews and the key part, (for the sake of this discussion) as Christ clearly stated, "they had omitted the weightier matters of the ((((LAW)))))", tithe being included in that category. He was addressing Jews who were still under the Law and Jesus hadn't died yet and the dispensation of grace hadn't yet begun. Gentiles and Christians didn't at that time nor do they now fall in that category nor are they under the law. Because Christ referenced tithe in the same category, tithe was a matter which was included in the Law as is clearly indicated by Christs statement.
Now whether or not tithing was practiced by anyone prior to the institution of the Law is of no consequence. Sure it was; Abraham gave away a tenth of his spoils. That doesn't mean that he gave away a tenth of everything that he ever earned or had. Tithing was however clearly stated as a mandate under the law. So if God made tithing very clear as a mandate under the law (which he did), then logically why would God have never mentioned it as a "mandate" throughout the entire New Testament? God didn't leave anything up to guess work or speculation and the Bible talks about every thing you can dream of in detail, and God just decided not to do the same with tithing in the New Testament?
There is nothing in the New Testament which suggests that it should have been carried over from the Law other then pure speculation. No where in the New Testament did any of the Apostles state that Tithing was carried over from the Law. They simply never said it. They talked about not committing adultery, and not committing theft and that we love each other and that we take care of the fatherless and widow, but it's rather strange that if God intended to carry over tithing from the Law that the Apostles never said that Christians have to do it? Preachers address Tithing more than any other subject but why is it, if it is a heaven or hell issue, that the Apostles never mentioned it as a mandate?
Now before I go any further, there is no NTCC preacher who's church that I was ever in who will say that I ever had a problem with paying tithe or that I missed paying one dime of it. It never happened but the fact is, I just don't agree that the scriptures you referenced can justify the notion that tithing is a mandate under the dispensation of grace for the very reasons that I've stated.
You said it was around before the Law. Yes it was and? Is that in itself cause to conclusively confirm with categorical, logical certainty that tithing is still a mandate? No way, not even close. Speculation, but nothing that would remotely parallel proof. Because Jesus mentioned it to the Jews as a part of the Law? That is certainly not proof that it would still be a mandate under grace. Nowhere even close.
The fact is not one scripture that you referenced said one single word that could even remotely be interpreted as saying, "TITHING IS STILL A MANDATE UNDER THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE".
Continued below...
RB said...
Greg had wanted a response to my take on the "tithe" issue. I wrote one article in a series that I am working on . When you get a chance please read it. Here is the link (to save on space).
Jeff said...
I went to the link and read your article. I applaud your passion and approach. Now here is my take Pastor Briggs. First, when Jesus was addressing the Pharisees he said, (as you quoted) "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,"
Who was he addressing? The scribes and Pharisees. Of what religious persuasion were they? They were Jews and the key part, (for the sake of this discussion) as Christ clearly stated, "they had omitted the weightier matters of the ((((LAW)))))", tithe being included in that category. He was addressing Jews who were still under the Law and Jesus hadn't died yet and the dispensation of grace hadn't yet begun. Gentiles and Christians didn't at that time nor do they now fall in that category nor are they under the law. Because Christ referenced tithe in the same category, tithe was a matter which was included in the Law as is clearly indicated by Christs statement.
Now whether or not tithing was practiced by anyone prior to the institution of the Law is of no consequence. Sure it was; Abraham gave away a tenth of his spoils. That doesn't mean that he gave away a tenth of everything that he ever earned or had. Tithing was however clearly stated as a mandate under the law. So if God made tithing very clear as a mandate under the law (which he did), then logically why would God have never mentioned it as a "mandate" throughout the entire New Testament? God didn't leave anything up to guess work or speculation and the Bible talks about every thing you can dream of in detail, and God just decided not to do the same with tithing in the New Testament?
There is nothing in the New Testament which suggests that it should have been carried over from the Law other then pure speculation. No where in the New Testament did any of the Apostles state that Tithing was carried over from the Law. They simply never said it. They talked about not committing adultery, and not committing theft and that we love each other and that we take care of the fatherless and widow, but it's rather strange that if God intended to carry over tithing from the Law that the Apostles never said that Christians have to do it? Preachers address Tithing more than any other subject but why is it, if it is a heaven or hell issue, that the Apostles never mentioned it as a mandate?
Now before I go any further, there is no NTCC preacher who's church that I was ever in who will say that I ever had a problem with paying tithe or that I missed paying one dime of it. It never happened but the fact is, I just don't agree that the scriptures you referenced can justify the notion that tithing is a mandate under the dispensation of grace for the very reasons that I've stated.
You said it was around before the Law. Yes it was and? Is that in itself cause to conclusively confirm with categorical, logical certainty that tithing is still a mandate? No way, not even close. Speculation, but nothing that would remotely parallel proof. Because Jesus mentioned it to the Jews as a part of the Law? That is certainly not proof that it would still be a mandate under grace. Nowhere even close.
The fact is not one scripture that you referenced said one single word that could even remotely be interpreted as saying, "TITHING IS STILL A MANDATE UNDER THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE".
Continued below...
Hey I'm just stating what I consider facts and you certainly are not spaming this blog Pastor Briggs. You make some of the most logical thought provoking statements as anyone who has written on this blog. You and I are both strong minded but through it all, when all is said and done, you do bring peace. You don't mind standing up for yourself and what you believe, and I don't blame you a bit. I doesn't matter whether or not I agree with you or you agree with me. I have no problem with someone who puts together their views in a logical manner. You and I just don't agree on this one and so be it. That doesn't make you or me any better than the other.
God will sort it all out in the end so in the mean time we both express our views. No problem here. If I'm wrong then I guess I'll have to pay the consequences and if you are wrong than so will you.
I'd much rather be at peace with you than be at odds by you or me conducting ourselves in a mean spirit. That doesn't mean we can't disagree. Follow peace with all men because I'll guarantee without it, (according to the Bible) none of us will see the Lord. I'm not referring to you here Pastor Briggs, but that doesn't mean that I can't call a hypocrite a hypocrite, just like Christ did. Like I always say, Christ by far had more of a problem with religious folks than anyone else and so do I. They just rub me up the wrong way and I have no problem saying it or calling them crooks or people who clearly practice nepotism or use and abuse people for personal gain. It is what it is.
By the way, good article, whether I agree with it or not. There was a time that I didn't think that I'd say this, but you'd be welcome over to my house for dinner, just as long as you didn't try and charge me tithe for desert. Ha, ha.
Sincerely and respectfully,
Jeff
One last thing Pastor Briggs: You might bring some heat upon yourself for coming on this blog and consorting with the "enemy" but I'll guarantee you this:
There are people in the NTCC who are more of an enemy to you then I'll ever be and you could bet your last buck on that one.
I may not be the sharpest tack in the box but I ain't no dummy, and the NTCC has some of the back stabbinest people that you'll ever meet in your life. No response necessary unless you just feel like giving it.
Jeff
Mr. Briggs,
I would have to state that you have earned my respect by appearing on this blog.
Jeff does bring up a valid point. Don't be surprised if your visits to Ex'er cyber land somehow come spewing out from the pulpit in Spring Conference.
I'm sure your more than Man enough to take whatever is dished out!
Im sure there are many NTCC preachers that surf this blog on a daily basis. None are man enough to Blog on the Blog however, or post as ANON Ha Ha.
Bro Johnson
I challenge 10 NTCC preachers to say something on this blog and post their name (honestly).
Mr. Kekel, if you would do us the honor and Blog then you more than make up the 10 NTCC Preacher Challenge!
We are on the Honor system here so if you falisfy a preacher's name that is Slander and your the one who has to face God not me.
Don't worry, I'm sure Bro Jeff won't excommunicate you if you include your name like Kekel did me.
Now THAT is a Coward for you!
Regards, Bro Johnson
I was looking through the passage that Pastor Briggs posted and this portion stuck out with me.
Paul said...
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
1Co 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
Jeff said...
Notice that Paul said that he had not used this power and he actually said, "we" so he wasn't alone. So what this is saying is that it is not a matter of heaven or hell and it certainly isn't a mandate. What Paul was saying is that he did not direct the Christians to provide for him because he did not want them to think he was money hungry which would hinder the Gospel of Christ. That is clearly what Paul was saying.
So the point being, there is no way it can be an absolute mandate / matter of heaven or hell for Christians to provide for him that brings forth the Gospel. Now having said that, the passage makes it quite plain that it is an acceptable and an ordained practice for hearers of the Gospel to provide for the preacher of the Gospel. That also can't be disputed.
That does not mean that it is an absolute mandate because Paul clearly declined any support from the Corinthians as is obvious from this passage. So if you take care of your pastor that is great and if you don't then you'll surely loose some blessings but that doesn't mean you'll go to hell. Paul said that he didn't want to hinder the Gospel by taking money from the people of Corinth. So if the Gospel wasn't being hindered, then the people surely weren't guaranteed a place in hell because they didn't support Paul. My logic is irrefutable. There is no possible way that based upon this scripture that paying tithe can be an absolute mandate or Paul would have required it with no exceptions. Because Paul absolutely did make exceptions as can be clearly seen by his own written words there is no way it's a matter of heaven or hell or Paul willfully sent his people to hell. This logic can not be denied.
Jeff
Bro Jeff,
The Tithing Points of View, howabeit valid, brought me to a Eureka Moment!
(1) I did not gain one filthy dollar by reading this blog.
(2) However, neither did any NTCC Preacher (from my pocketbook) either, THANKS TO READING THIS BLOG!
(3) God did not send me to Hell.
In fact, I lusted after one cup of coffee.
As long as I hobble into Heaven saved, as well as my family, I think I'm doing alright.
If, by paying tithe God gives out a special Medal that only tithe payers can wear on their chest, then I have no one to blame but myself because I had the means to pay tithe but, simply chose not to pay it. I will have to deal with that for all eternity.
I'm in the Sergeant Audie Murphy Club (Surprised??), I was inducted when I was a Buck Sergeant back in 2004 and Bro Jeff you know that that is an elite club to get in while your in the Army.
I know I'm in SAMC, and so do the SAMC members. Yes, I get to wear the SAMC Medallion during special functions. Is there an increase in my pay for being in the Club? No. Is it something to strive to be in? Yes. Are there any special perks for being in the Club? Believe it or not, I will have to say NO. I say again, NO PERKS. In fact, the pressure is there, even more so, to perform to perfection at all times.
I am reminded of the Bible Verse in
Romans 4:16
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
Romans 5:1
"Therefore being justified of faith, we have PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"
-Bro Johnson, Peace Out!!
If you are willfully electing to provide for the one who brings forth the Gospel then you are doing something which God (according to the New Testament Bible) has ordained.
However don't let your pastor guilt trip you into this practice while threatening you with hell as your eternal habitation. If that is the case, then Paul willfully sent the entire Corinthian church to hell. Paul wanted to teach them what was good and acceptable and ordained but once again and for the record, he did not accept any support because he felt that it would hinder the Gospel. So therefor don't let any preacher tell you that you will go to hell if you don't support him because that is a lie and contrary to the scriptures.
2Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Jeff said...
In the New Testament Dispensation, you don't give because you have to, you give because you want to and God will bless you. You don't give out of necessity. You give because you want to and if you don't want to, then don't let someone guilt trip you into thinking you "should" want to. Salvation isn't all about giving money. It's about faith and love. If you are going to give your money, give it to someone who needs it or someone who's earned it. Not to some blow hard preacher who says you have to give him your money or you're going to hell. That kind of preacher will never get a dime out of me and I'm convinced that God has no problem with me feeling that way.
If I take care of a preacher, it won't because he threatened his congregation with hell or because he said, "All Christians pay tithe and give in the offering". It will be because he truly loved his congregation and he showed it and he wasn't willing to hinder the Gospel of Christ by giving mandates. That is the way Paul was and that is the way he'll have to be or he won't get a dime out of me and not only will I not go back to his church I'll do my best to prevent other from going also. There is too many places you can go to hear the Gospel preached these day for me to deal with an abusive, control hungry jerk.
Jeff.
SFC Johnson said...
I'm in the Sergeant Audie Murphy Club (Surprised??), I was inducted when I was a Buck Sergeant back in 2004 and Bro Jeff you know that is an elite club to get in while you're in the Army.
Jeff said...
Actually I am surprised. I didn't know. Wow Bro, that's quite an achievement. I know quite well how hard it is to achieve that one. I've had my share of military accolades but that certainly wasn't one of them. I'm not trying to pump you up (as you know) but that is pretty impressive Bro.
Jeff
Amen Jeff, and, once again, some really great points!
Jeff said...
In the New Testament dispensation, you don't give because you have to, you give because you want to and God will bless you.
Jeff said to himself...
Actually it is not about whether or not God will bless you. In fact it has nothing to do with God blessing you. You give to people because you want to help and you care. You don't give to people because you are thinking, "if I do this God will bless me".
Some people naturally care and others don't and don't feel guilty if you are one of the people who don't. The bottom line is, it's not a mandate and it's not about necessity.
You have compassion for someone and if it's in your heart you help them out and if it's not, then you don't do it and you don't feel guilty because of it. You are who you are and there is nothing healthy about running around with guilt all the time. This is one of the main reasons this blog is here and this is the main reason that I can't stand so many NTCC preachers. RWD has taught them the art of laying some seriously heavy guilt trips on everyone.
I'm telling you. RWD is one seriously diabolical dude who causes a lot of hurt and pain to a lot of people. I really can't stand most of these NTCC preachers. They really make people's lives pure misery.
Jeff
Jeff, I am glad you read the article. You make some good points however I think you are over looking the major point of that post. Let me explain.
My point was simple
Tithe, Animal Sacrafice, Circumsision all existed before the law
All were confirmed under the law
BUT HERE IS THE MAIN THRUST which I think you inadvertantly overlooked.....
Two of these were done away with SPECIFICALLY by scripture. The third was not
Animal Sacrifice and Circumsision is specifically said to be done away.
As you mention there is no where in the NT where we are told to tithe anymore in specific terms. But that is the strength of my argument.
If God showed in 2 out of three times that he revokes specific commands by written word what is the probability he would not do so with the third? I ThINK SLIM TO NONE.
But again, that is my faith. Because that is my faith I can preach nothing but what I believe I have to.
In Short the main question that I would you to answer is this (I will put it in caps for emphasis not anger)
FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS IN PLACE BEFORE THE LAW AND DURING THE LAW WOULDN'T IT STAND TO REASON THAT IT WOULD BE ON THE PART OF THE PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE TITHING IS DONE AWAY TO PROVE THEIR THEORY SEEING WE HAVE TWO SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLES OF THIS BEING DONE?
It's not my job to prove someone has to pay it, it's their job to prove they do not and there is nowhere in scripture to point to in making that case.
About the Jew statement let me point out also that Abrham was not a "Jew" when he paid tithe notice
Gensis 14
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
His name had not been changed yet... he was still Abram not Abraham... in other words he was still GENTILE and not the first JEW...
Couldn't it be argued that that fact alone - Abrham as a Gentile paid tithe was the reasoon God had to introduce it to the Jews as well in their scripture so that they couldnt use the argument so many try to use today "That was a different dispinsation". Since it had already been part of what the GENTILES had to do and since it was not revoked by scripture it remains a necessity that is to be done... of a willing heart.
But the whole of the christian experience is to be done "Willingly" but if a person is not "willing" to be a christian they are still condemened. The out come is still the same. But the motivation is different.
Last but not least... I am glad we agree that we stand before God which is all we can do. These matters are weighty and deserve our best effort in our determination and once made we need to stand before God with confidence in our decission.
It is ridiculous to try to make a "command" out of something that Paul made NO command at all to Christians about. The strength of your argument is that it is NOT commanded in the New Testament???
What was the law? It basically comprised of a few things
Diatary Restrictions
Monetary Considerations
Civil Conduct
Religious Worship
And Sinful Atonement.
we know dietary things were done away becase we are told in Col. 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Notice these are the dietary elements (Touch, taste, handle NOT)
Then the Civil conduct aspects where modified in part and for the most part made more difficult "The law says if a man compel they to go with him one mile I say go with him Twain" and of course if your eye offend thee pluch it out....
So that just leaves the monetary portions which show no modification or revocation at all...
These types of galringly obvious issues keep me firm in my faith.
Also, I was somewhat ridiculed for stating that the early church confirmed their belief in tithe saying "If you have to go back so far to show your point your really reaching"
When people reach back even farther to Paul and say "Well, if anyone should have recived tithe it should have been him and he didn't so that's the proof" when he states himself that he had as much right
(Neither murderer... shall inherit the kingdom of God)
Those regarding religious worship were definitely modified as I think most here would agree through direct instruction thorughout the whole of the NT.
That leaves the monetary requirments which were left unmentioned accept for the statement of Jesus to "not leave" them undone.. but we want to reject the greatest voice of all and demand a servant of his confirm or deny what he has already confirmed......
I just don't get that.
No ANON. the strength of my argument is that no scripture repeals tithe for the nt. Once set in motion it is not taken out of motion until God himself says "That is enough". Which he has not because the upkeep of the work of God continues until heaven and earth pass away... that's when the "Jot and tittle" of tithe will be done away with....
Can you find me a scripture which says or implies tithing is no longer necessary?
For the part about Paul not taking money up for people thus prooving that it could not be a sin or heaven and hell issue I must ask
What of Baptism? Is it required? If so, why didn't Paul baptise if it was required? Shouldn't he have done so
RB said...
Tithe, Animal Sacrifice, Circumcision all existed before the law. All were confirmed under the law. BUT HERE IS THE MAIN THRUST which I think you inadvertently overlooked.....
Two of these were done away with SPECIFICALLY by scripture. The third was not.
Jeff said...
Tithe, Animal Sacrifice, Circumcision have nothing to do with each other. During the time of the law you didn't pay tithe to to make an atonement for your sins. Just because there wasn't specific scripture indicating that tithe in itself was done away with doesn't mean there was specific scripture showing that tithing remained because there wasn't.
I"m just looking at it from a scriptural and logical standpoint. One can't make up a mandate on feelings alone. There must be scripture to factually support it and because tithing in specific was part of the law and no Apostles mentioned it in the New Testament, one can't assume that it was carried over from the law. And that is exactly what is happening when people take scriptures completely out of context in an attempt to conclude that tithing is still a mandate being carried over from the law. Everything in the New Testament indicates otherwise. I'm not speculating however I'm just stating facts here.
Jeff
RB said...
It's not my job to prove someone has to pay it, it's their job to prove they do not and there is nowhere in scripture to point to in making that case.
Jeff said...
Yes, there most certainly is and I wrote paragraph after paragraph proving it. Recap: Paul clearly didn't accept tithe and he made that plain with his own written words. It was either not a mandate or he sent the Corinthian church to hell. Paul said he wouldn't hinder the Gospel so being that he clearly wasn't hindering the Gospel, then paying tithe has nothing to do with the Gospel because the preaching of salvation is the Gospel. The preaching of tithing is not the Gospel or Paul would have preached it and it would have counted toward your salvation but it doesn't because paying tithe can't save you. So therefor being that Paul did not preaching tithing as a mandate and this did not hinder the Gospel, than once again tithing is not part of the Gospel.
Anyone can believe anything they want but my logic from a New Testament Bible stand point is obviously correct.
It won't send you to hell if you don't pay tithe and Paul made the clear. Either that or this portion of scripture that we are both referencing has nothing to do with tithing at all which would give your plea even less viable credibility.
I don't have to prove that dinosaurs still roam the earth just because they once did and I don't have to prove that tithing doesn't exist just because it once did. There is no evidence that either still exists now and that is my only point.
Tithing isn't my livelihood but it is yours Sir, so it stands to reason that you would unquestionably support it. To do otherwise would mean that all your income would have to come from elsewhere just like mine does. That ain't no mystery. I do appreciate your duologue and you are a pretty good dude Pastor Briggs.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff.. I don't think you're a bad "dude" either. I appreciate the new level of civility we have found.
On this issue we will have to agree to disagree but that's ok. I would like to ask one thing though. Do you HONESTLY think my support of titheing in the NT era is based solely on my ministry? Could I not just as easily support it if I was not a preacher?
Though I am "FULL TIME" did you know I have a woodworking business? RABDesignsinwood.com (THough it's under construction you can see it there or on Facebook) I make signs, furniture, hope chests, tables, boxes, display racks.
All of last week I was remodling a kitchen for some people, and next week I start on their livingroom.
I sell 3d carving patterns for CNC Carving machines.
My point (Though I know I risk being attacked by anon. saying I am proud) is that I am not as "Dependent" as you might have first thought. In truth, the reality is that there are a lot of things about a persons life that might not be as obvious as they might seem.
Well, thanks again for the dialogue. I hope you have a great day.
Oh, and Sgt Johsnons I failed to thank you for your words. So please forgive me, and thank you.
RB asked:
Can you find me a scripture which says or implies tithing is no longer necessary?
Caesar asks:
Is it possible that Jeff is right here? Tithe is a great system of monetary compensation for those who preach the gospel. There is nothing wrong with using the tithe system in the church.
However, to preach tithe as a heaven or hell, a sinner or saint issue is really adding to God's word because there is no scripture that makes tithing a requirement for salvation.
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Caesar,
It is totally possible Jeff is right here. But then again it is totally possible I am right. Notice that his arguments stem from opinion and faith just as much as my support stems from the same thing.
Is it not possible that I am correct? Paul did say in Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Why didn't he make it clear here that he was meaning before the bloodline?
Why won't anyone adress Jesus' words to "Not leave them undone"?
If the argumemt is that "Well Jesus was speaking from the Old Testament Side of the issue then you have to acknowledge that reasoning must be applied to all of Jesus teachings. Because they were all made before the bloodline... does that make them no longer effective?
Anything is possible.. but in my mind logic, reason, scriptureal evidence, all point towards the tithe. But I stand before God as one willing to accept my judgment if I am wrong. But if you can not convincingly prove me wrong to full satisfaction of my heart and conscience can you really ask me to go against my own convictions?
Great point Caesar!!! "Except ye pay a certain amount of money ye cannot be saved???" The gift of God will NEVER be purchased with money and the lack of paying money will NEVER take it away!
Support your local church, yes, make the church pastor provide you with a financial disclosure, yes, live of the gospel, yes. Try to "guilt trip" and harass God's heritage into making them think that they MUST pay a certain amount of money, "or else," ABSOLUTELY NOT.
No one is asserting that "tithing" saves you. Just as no one is asserting that "telling the truth" saves you. But it is still true that "all lyars shall have their part in the lake of fire" (Rev 21:8)
It is also important to realize that "They that know to do good and doeth it not to them it is sin"
So is the sin is in not "doing the right thing" as we know we should. The results would be the same. If preachers didn't stand up and say things like "All Christian's pay tithe and gladly give in offerings" they would stand up and say things like "You know you are supposed to give and help out to finanically support the church and ministry (minister) as scripture tell us. You know this is right and good and "THEY THAT KNOW TO DO GOOD and DOETH IT NOT TO THEM IT IS SIN"
either way they put people in hell.
Anon don't you agree just saying "They that know to do good and doeth it not to them it is sin" is a guilt trip? Doesn't that make people feel guilty?
Or using statements like "How dwelleth the love of God in you"
On and on we could go but I think you know that the preaching of ANYTHING brings about a sense of guilt. It seems that to be the more important issue to people "Don't make me feel guilty" then the issue of tithe itself.
"He that knoweth to do good..." Yes it is good for the church to support their own church. It is also good for the pastor to provide the church with a finacial disclosure of where EVERY PENNY is going. Does that happen? No, but it is the good thing to do and "he that knoweth to do good..."
It is also not good to add to God's word. It IS good for the church to try those that say they are apostles. The church in Revelation tried those that said they were apostles and found them liars.
If I put money in the church offering it would be GOOD for the pastor to provide the church with a complete financial disclosure. That doesn't happen in some churches and "... he that knoweth to do good..."
RB said...
Do you HONESTLY think my support of tithing in the NT era is based solely on my ministry? Could I not just as easily support it if I was not a preacher?
Jeff said...
No Sir, in your case of course not, but I do believe that it certainly contributes. There are other ministers in the NTCC where it is the sole source of income. Of that I'm certain. I'm not talking about interest from small savings accounts either. That doesn't qualify in my opinion.
Jeff
Supporting your church is definitely Biblical. "If any man give let him give as he purposeth in his heart..." Demanding certain amounts of money, "or else," is definitely NOT Biblical and more like extortion.
If I wanted to I, 100% TOTALLY believe, I could make a doctrine out of "mandatory foot washing," or mandatory "that you must greet each other with a holy kiss," or mandatory "...if you don't take up serpents," you are not saved. There are many things in the Bible I could make a "mandatory" doctrines out of.
MB why do you hide by anon. when you harp on the smae issues and give yourself away?
Financial disclosure is practiced in some churches if you went more you would find that out. I know I've done it. I know of at least one other large church that does it.
But if you want us to drop an issue that is biblically based just because you say you believe it is yet the most you can say is "it was done away with the law" and when asked to show the specific scripture that does this you can not... you simply believe it to be so.
I can without a shadow of a doubt tell you there is no scriptural authority to hold church "Business" meetings to go over the spending of the church. It was never done in old or NT times so please don't "Add to" the requirements of God's book.
How much is a pack of paper towels for a church of even simply 90 people?
How much for the Toilet paper?
Ok, now please give me an indication of how much the electricity runs on a monthly basis in the Texas summer time?
What does it cost to keep the A/C running yearly?
How much for the water? Sewage? Gas? Lawn Care? Insurance? Now the newly imposed road maintenance fees?
Add to that the expectation of parents that their kids have some type of "carriculum", and a "treat" for services and Sunday School.
See just sitting back and watching with an honest eye can SEE how money is spent. But if I am going to be expected to give financial disclousre that will include how the money comes in and who it comes in from because that is part of the "disclosure" you seek.
But we dont want to go there do we? Man, I think you just solved the problem. Financial disclosure IS the way to go... list how everything is paid AND list everyone that gives. You want to know how I spend church money and my money... fair is fair.
Jeff, I agree you are probably right (about some) but their intention is only known to God and I don't sit in his place. I can only judge and maintain my own heart and standing and leave the rest to the righteous judge of all.
RB said...
If the argument is that "Well Jesus was speaking from the Old Testament Side of the issue then you have to acknowledge that reasoning must be applied to all of Jesus teachings. Because they were all made before the bloodline... does that make them no longer effective?
Jeff said...
That wasn't my argument at all. It's not about the (Old Testament). It's about the Law which we no longer fall under and I just don't understand why James, Jude, Peter, John and Paul decided to leave out the part that tithing was a matter of heaven or hell? I would think they'd have wanted us to know that.
Jesus specifically refereed to tithe as part of the LAW as I previously illustrated. In that passage he was talking directly to the Jews and he did make literal mention of tithe being included in the Law, verbatim. Jesus never said that we stop taking our rebellions children out to have them put to death either but we certainly aren't doing that any longer and that practice was certainly contained in the law.
Jeff
Yes Robert I'm MB, sorry for not identifying myself. Remember we both need to continue to be civil. But, yes, I believe EVERY church should provide a COMPLETE financial disclosure of ALL the money that comes in and where ALL of it goes. "He that knoweth to do good..."
Complete financial disclosures are GOOD. Preacher like to tell the flock about the building expense, etc., but slow to tell them part of their money went on the latest Pastor's car, etc. If you don't have a COMPLETE financial disclosure how do you know if the pastor is not throwing away money on a new car that he doesn't need?
Wow, the more I think about it the more I LIKE the idea of financial disclosure. Here's how it will work
Ok, let's start our Disclosure meeting.
First lets go over our mothly incomes.
Thursday Night Offering $55
Saturday Night Offering $87
Sunday Morning Offering $120
Sunday Night Offering $110
List of church attendees/members and their offering and Tithe for the week/bi-week/or month (whichever applies)
John Doe (weekly) $10
Sally Sue (Bi-Week) $140
Sigmund Fread (Monthly) $1000
Micheal Johsnon (Month) $0
Teddy Freddy (week) $5
Pastor Fred (week) $250
NOW lets go over expenses
Montly Electric for June $850
Water Bill for June $92
Gas Bill for June $25
Supplies $250
Office Supplies (Toner) $245.37 (THE OFFICE SUPPLY NUMBER IS A REAL NUMBER FROM OUR CHURCH YESTARDAY)
Church Mortgage (month) $1700
Church Insurance (month) $380
Church Promotional Suppl. $200
Church Dumpster $95
Misc Repairs $120
Yea that might get people giving more especially when you show each and every person and how much they give because naming their names and showing their totals would totally be less psychologically pressuring.
YOU KNOW I AM being facicious.
Michael, all the church would be given in such an even is "Pastor recieved x# of dollars. Once he has been given his pay how he spends his personal money is none of their concern.
But again, if we are going to see how much the pastor "makes" it stands to reason we are to give the members pay scale as well in disclosing their giving.
And that's something I don't think anyone wants to do.
Good point Jeff, but that we no longer stone our children is covered under specific scripture
Vengence is mine I will repay saith the Lord
He took it out of our hands and reserves it now himself.
Jesus was talking to Jews, but then again we have been "graphted in" and are now called "jews" who were once gentiles in the faith.
I do understand your position and it is a valid argument but to my learning it is full of to many holes that are not sufficiently dealt with in simply discarding something that has been done by so many for so long.
And I have to give an account to God for what I say or don't say as a preacher. So I have to defer always to what I have found to be true. And if no specific scripture can tell me what is or what is not true, I then have to apply reason, and logic. And my reason and logic says
Of the three commands that existed before the "law" only one has never been repealed by edict. The two that were done away with were also spelled out in the law so why was their need to specifically say something about them and not the other? Wouldn't silence prove them no longer in effect as in the case you make about tithe?
Robert, in all honesty, a COMPLETE financial disclosure of who all gave, what the expenses are, and where it all went, would be a big blessing for your church. Establish what would be a ligitimate salary would be for you, that way it's all out in the open. I never like "being in the dark" about where all of the church's money goes. --- MB
And Michael, using your logic about "if you don't have financial disclosure how do you know if the pastor is not spending" money he shouldn't spend or can't afford to spend?
I say, without a written reciept of church member contributions how can you knwo if every member is pulling their fair share?
Would it work for you better if we sat down, added all expenses, divided them by the numebr of monthly attendees and then gave everyone a bill for their poriton?
Should we employ a collection agency to get their unpaid balances? Thats what Joel Olsteen's church does for their pledges... I've been told thye even charge interest.. though I can't prove that myself.
Michael, in all fairness you already posted that you were offended when I asked you PRIVATELY about your tithe... you really want me to believe you wouldn't get upset if I asked you publically in a meeting why you were not paying your share?
Remember just because one man or woman makes more money does not mean they have to give more money (without a standard)then someone working on a minimum wage job. They both take the same space. They both use the same air, they both then (without a standard) need to pay the same amount in support. Without a standard that is. But the wonderful thing about tithe as the standard it EQUALIZES the classes proportianatly which is consistent with God.
Very very interesting comment Pastor Briggs. "Go after 'em for the balance," no. Idealogically you would hope the church would willfully pull together as a team and get the bills paid, establish a salary for their pastor,
and get a monthly report of the financial "health" of the church. Also disclose everything that's coming in and where it all goes, including the amount you have to send to Graham. I totally believe you would actually see a increase in the church income and stability. --- MB
And I can appreciate you "think" that but experience with people and team building has taught me otherwise. There is no dougbt that I am "progressive" however that average "joe" will always defer to the path of least resistence (or in this case tha path of least giving) when given no standard at all. God I believe understood this and so instituted the "tithe" as a standard rule of "thumb" for every generation to understand their MINIMUM responsibility in the financial upkeep of his work and workers.
But good points.. and thanks for keeping it civil.
Come on Mike (assuming it's you). This isn't about Pastor Briggs having to account for every dollar that comes in his church. If people don't trust what he does with the money then they shouldn't give it to him. That is the way I see it. I don't trust the NTCC as an organization so they won't get another dime from me.
I don't agree with the NTCC system but it is theirs. If you don't like it you leave their church like I did. This is not a forum where we try and make mandates for Pastor Briggs. That is not our place.
Jeff
If we are going to "Hope" people are going to pull together for the balance what happens if they don't? Who is stuck with the bill? Ooops, that's right (not trying to be sarcastic just ironic) the preacher.
I say this in all sincerity you can't know what it takes to raise children until you do it. You can't understand the responsibilites of adulthood until you meet them, and you can't understand the pressures of the pastorate until you do it. And MOST people fold under it's pressure as history in all organizations proves.
I've gotta go for now.
Jeff in his defense I don't think that is what he is trying to do here. I think he is saying across the board preachers in general.
At least that's how I am taking it. And in general I am using my self to speak in a broader sense about prechers as a whole.
Really good point Jeff and extremely good point Pastor Briggs!!! Jeff, I am not sure how much Pastor Briggs is "bound" by the ntcc tradition of doing things. I definitely believe every church should have a financial disclosure, it's the good thing to do. Me and Pastor Briggs are keeping it very civil. Yes this is Mike. --- MB
Rev. Briggs your shared in one of your clesses that there will be some in the organzation who will be glad when you fail,do you remeber? You said in certian words there are some who are rootin for you but some who are not do you still feel this way today?
See this is why Paul didn't accept support. He knew that the subject of "money" would hinder the Gospel. It becomes too big of an issue to everyone. Paul preached the Gospel willingly, not because he got paid for he said he didn't. Pastor Briggs, I don't expect you to answer to anyone on this blog nor do I expect anyone to feel that they have to answer to you.
We are simply having a discussion. I don't expect anyone to try and back you up against a wall. If you came out swinging I wouldn't blame you one bit. There is nothing wrong with fiscal accountability but I don't believe in giving to a church that you have a reason not to trust.
Jeff
Cool you guys. Thank you Mike and Pastor Briggs.
Jeff
Anon,
Yes, there are always some who will like to see you fall and those who do not. However at no time did I refer to my leaders or.. in short.. they would not be my leaders. I was speaking of peers. Many which are now gone after 6 years since that time.
This is the world as we know it. And I am fine with that. I know my friends AND my enemies. Though it's possible for some to cross the lines.
Why do you ask?
Pastor Briggs said...
I say this in all sincerity you can't know what it takes to raise children until you do it. You can't understand the responsibilities of adulthood until you meet them, and you can't understand the pressures of the pastorate until you do it. And MOST people fold under it's pressure as history in all organizations proves.
Jeff said...
Valid point Pastor Briggs and no butts. Of course you know that I'm not a fan of big buildings that cost big money and require big money to maintain. I like to keep it simple. Minimal expenses required. That way no one is placed with an undue burden to include the Pastor. If he creates a lot of bill than that should be his problem. Don't create an empire that I have to pay for is my point. And then you are living in a mansion and I'm living in a shack.
Jeff
Jeff, that was a BRILLIANT point!!! I'm not trying to flatter you but you just described PERFECTLY in your last comment what I have been thinking!!! Pastor Briggs, you are educating me, seriously, with your comments also. Thank you Jeff and Pastor Briggs. --- MB
I agree Jeff... but there comes a time in growth where in order to get any larger you have to take a step forward in faith to give more room for that growth. If you don't you restrict the very growth you seek. Like the gold fish it will only grow to the size of the bowl you give it. Now I do not mean by this that you go out and buy the biggest bowl you can find first... you graduate upward. But still you will always have a bowl just a little bigger then the fish (or in this case the church).
Understand that I do not agree with huge mega churches. In my view there is a point where a church ministry looses it's effectiveness in peoples lives. Smaller groups can be successully pastored in ways large groups can not. But understnad by small I am still talking about 500 - 1000 people or so.
No one should have 30,000 people for the sake of the PEOPLE.
And I whole heartedly agree that if a person doesn't trust a ministry they should not give to it. But I also agree that if they don't trust it, and therefore don't give to it, they also should not attend it. And if they do, I can not see any reason for staying short of their desire to "sow dischord"
It amazes me (seriously) how fast people report what is "going" on in Graham, or in St. Louis, or in the overeas works. This information only comes from inside sources.. sources that are lying in their very presence in the organizational meetings. They act as spies which is reprehensible if you ask me. I'm in or I'm out... I'm not going to shake hands and stab backs all at the same time.
Jeff, you state what you believe and you act in accordance with those beliefs. I can respect that. I can't respect the shadow-walkers that creep around under cover of darkness and attempt to find vulnerability in order to destroy. That is for sure condemned in God's word.
Let me ask a sincere question which I hope will get sincere objective answers:
Is there Ever a time when a laborer should be highly rewarded?
If someone starts a church, or takes a church from 20 to 200 or 1000 should they recieve the same pay they got when the church was only beginnign (which is nothing) or when it is 20 members? Or do they "sow in hope" and "reap in Hope"
And is it wrong to hope that if you put your life in a field such as the ministry, and you work it, and work it, and work it, and it grows you will also be better off at the end of the day. Or should such a worker relegate himself to abject poverty regardless of results of their labor.
In reference to the earlier comment:
I am not against paying tithe.
I pay tithe to my church and I do it willingly, out of faith that God will honor my gift.
I have seen and experienced supernatural financial blessings that come right after someone steps out on faith and gives their tithe as unto God.
I have a problem when a preacher makes a dogmatic statement like "All christians pay tithe"
There are christians in prison in China.
There are christians in prison in Iran.
There are christians in prison in Pakistan.
All over the world, there are christians in situations where they are "in bonds" imprisoned for their testimony of Christ and they don't even have one other christian to fellowship with let alone a "church" to go to.
Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
It is arrogant and short sighted to create a doctrine that supposedly applies to "all christians" without sufficient scriptural proof about money issues.
I think you are entering territory that I don't want to enter when you start putting christianity in your own personal "box"
God is sovereign and Jesus Himself said many times: "Thy faith hath saved thee"
Every man is right in his own eyes; and that's the way I see it.
Caesar
I just realized a few days ago that full time Pastors in the NTCC have no retirement there is no money put into social security. That made me so sad :( What does that do to people like St. Clair Senior and his wife? And on top of this they tell the women not to work also so they have no money going into social security also. When people leave they say it’s all about the money. LOL when people leave they have absolutely no money. That is unless they cut down on their budget for beans and rice and went without new underwear for years so they could put money into savings. Is this really Gods elite plan for his children? If NTCC is offering so much why don't I read of all the miracles taking place in the trumpet and see what God is doing. Why month after month is it just cut and paste from preachers of old but nothing about these men and women for God laboring for God and the blessings they are reaping. I think New Tastament Christian Churches of (America Inc). Should have a plan that takes care of their own. How about money for retirement (SOCIAL SECURTIY) and health insurance. Maybe they would not get so much heat from the outsiders about only some seeming to live in comfort while other struggle to stay afloat. IF IT WASN'T SO IMBALANCED. New Testament Christian Churches of America lacks balance. 5 services a week plus soul wining, being there for the flock, phone calls, visits and maybe the minister also works a job on top of this to support the family. Husbands have no times for there wives and when the time to spend time with her does come he or she can be too burdened to be focused on each other. The children suffer from this imbalance also. With the balance NTTC has that affects families it should be a church only for evangelists. (Men or women unmarried with no children)
I remember being taken back at a conference one time. I heard Rev. Davis say in front of the congregation why do you need a day off so you can have sex with your wife! I didn't know were it came from. I actually felt a little shocked. It didn’t seem right to me and I was not edified by that statement. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with your wife or husband. And when husbands and wives do not take time to be romantic or think about it sex is harder to do and it was almost as is if there was a false sense of condemnation. The Bible said the marriage bed is undefiled. And it says husbands and wives can be tempted because of there lack of consistency.
Rev. Briggs thanks for answering my question sorry it took so long to respond. I asked because I remebered that statment really standing out to me because I did not think you were referring to leaders. I don't know really why asked. I have been in the place where I thought is the brother for me or against me though. I don't really know why I asked. I don't want to share personal exeriences because I feel like it would cause me to feel trapped here in this forum.
Thank you for answering my question.
In conference one time you questioned something Rev. Ashmore had said to you and it was brought up in front of the conrgeration and you looked kind of sad afterwords and almost seemed like an outcast you were stting alone a lot through out the conference. My husband and I said hello to you and felt sorry for you and tried to show you we loved and appreicated you. One of these issues you had brought up or that came up and had been announced in front of the congregation was an issue we had went through. I want you to know I pray for you and have been praying for you. I pray if you ever do make the choice to leave you will have the peace that goes with it. I am not rootin for you to leave because a lot of pain comes with leaving the flock (your congreation) but I pray God gives you peace in whatever desision you make. I know when my husband minsiters for God again God will be able to use him to do greater things because he will not have the shackles of another mans ideals and ways around his ankle he will just have God leading him. Lord help you Sir.
by the way church needs money to run tithe has been around for years before the Levitical law so why should I presonally be against it. I don't believe it should be do this or hell though of corse. You draw bee's with honey. Not with smoke from the furnace
RB said...
Understand that I do not agree with huge mega churches.
Jeff said...
And I've heard that from the NTCC leadership for years but here is the problem. That is exactly what the NTCC has become. A big mega church spread out all over the place. The only difference is that the churches you are referencing usually are in one location and you can best believe that had worked out that way, the NTCC leadership would have gladly received the same thing in Graham. RWD would have just built another bigger building.
Jeff
Ceasar you are right about that... but remember that tithe necessitates increase... a chrsitian that "Increases" is obligated to return to God his portion the way he perscribes (given the understand taht a person accepts tithe as binding). If a person in prison has no increase they are not obligated to tithe... ti's that simple.. but if a person is being blessed by God's bounty and they refuse to acknoweldge that bounty with their tithe.. the idea is they are not Chrstian. That can be debated and we are doing that.. but that is what the statement means.
Anon said some good things among them this
If NTCC is offering so much why don't I read of all the miracles taking place in the trumpet and see what God is doing. Why month after month is it just cut and paste from preachers of old but nothing about these men and women for God laboring for God and the blessings they are reaping
I say to you
If we answer in our own words (speaking of NTCC people) we for the most part are called mind numbed.. .robots of a cultist creation....
But if we show words of Great preachers of the past that agree with much of what we do we are as you pointed out subject to scorn because we can't speak for ourself.
Don't you see NOTHING will please people.
I understand your concerns for the aging ministers... I am one of them... but please understand my intention when I say this. Let me worry about my future....
If that cost seems to high by all means do not go into ministry here. If some laboring under this system think it's too stiff they should leave.
But for us who make the choice to stay respect our decission and don't be quick to say we must be "crazy" or "brainwashed" because it just might be that we have a faith as of yet you've not exprienced. I am saying this with as much humility as I can... please see through the Times New roman of it.
God has been good to me and mine, and he will continue to be so. I don't look to my organization to provide for me, and I don't really even look to my church, I to God and depend on the talents and abilities he gave me. Yes, he uses the church to bless me... but he uses my skills also. That is not boast or brag it's just fact. These other things (the church, the organization) can fail me.. God can not. And I love the conficdence my experiences have brought me.
Briggs wake up and get with it.
If it says in the Bible that it left to what is layed on our HEART what to give. Then why would God turn it around and make it a binding Tenth as in the OT before Jesus came??? It can not be both ways!
I have since been to churches where a container is put out for folks to put in what GOD layed it on there heart what to give. Folks gave more then I have seen in a ntcc offerring plate.
RB said:
If a person in prison has no increase they are not obligated to tithe... ti's that simple.. but if a person is being blessed by God's bounty and they refuse to acknoweldge that bounty with their tithe.. the idea is they are not Chrstian.
I have to disagree RB.
I can agree with "If you refuse to pay tithe, you bring a financial curse upon yourself." because that is taught in the Bible, and I have witnessed it happen.
I disagree because Christ Himself said "Thy faith hath saved thee..."
Nowhere did Jesus, or any Apostle in the Bible teach that paying tithe is required to BE a christian. The OT required it of the Jews. But the ordinances of the Levitical Priesthood were done away with in Christ. (which is the teaching of Hebrews 7; not the requirement of tithe)
Christ is all in all. We are saved by faith in Christ. There is no scripture that nullifies the salvation and new birth received by the power of the blood of Christ if a person doesn't render his tithe.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
A person can be a christian and be saved by the grace of God even if that person doesn't pay any tithe.
The statement "All christians pay tithe" was instituted by Pastor Davis because it is a short, dogmatic statement that engages in "applied psychology" to coerce the person to do what is implied. It is a psychological technique and not a scriptural teaching.
I remember him teaching it and explaining it that way.
Caesar
Thank you for your words sister and your prayers. I am a square peg in a round world... I just don't fit. And I don't try anymore.
I would be interested for you to write me at pastor@ntccpasadenatx.org and tell me more what information you said came out and I will be more then happy to talk to you about it.
Sufficie it to say in large groups I am introverted. Always have been ACCEPT in groups where I am clearly the leader.. it's a strange combination of personality traits but it what God gave me to work with.
I am not struggling to decide if I should stay or go... I am at peace. I wrote my article on Fear, Frustration, and facing pastor to help people. Because I do believe far to many of my peers wear the Mask of perfection and thereby set themselves up for a hard fall, and their people up for great insequrities. I pray they learn to take their mask off.
I come here because I think talking can help both you (the readers) and me. I gain much clarity when it is a civil discourse. Clarity that I have to have if I am to be useable to God and man.
I also believe that in some small way my contributions can bring a semblence of peace (as long as I don't get attacked lol) which is commendable in the Lords Sermon on the Mt. (Blessed are the peacemakers)
Thanks again... tell your husband hello.... No I don't know who you are... but I think you are still my friend~!
Ceasar,
Faith is the only thing that saves us... but obedience to God requires faith. If you agree you tithe brings blessing and non-tithing brings God's curse you exibit faith... faith that motivates you to be pleasing to God and Pay your required amount.
Nonpayment in your case would amount to rebellion because you've already said you "believe" it's what he wants. His curse in life will not gain his pleasure in the after life.
Can't you see that? The statement we use.. in this case is a statement of the obvious.
Anon... I would rather not get with "it" you never know where "it" has been.
I could care less what some spinless somebody does in putting a "box" on the wall. Unless you count those offerings and have countedd our offerings you have no way of making your assertion.
Plus the BOX ITSELF IS psychologically manipulative because now EVERYONE sees who goes and puts something in it.
RB asked...
If someone starts a church, or takes a church from 20 to 200 or 1000 should they receive the same pay they got when the church was only beginning (which is nothing) or when it is 20 members? Or do they "sow in hope" and "reap in Hope"
And is it wrong to hope that if you put your life in a field such as the ministry, and you work it, and work it, and work it, and it grows you will also be better off at the end of the day. Or should such a worker relegate himself to abject poverty regardless of results of their labor.
Jeff said...
I read two separate articles which talked about the ten top business in the USA. In both articles, being the leader/owner of a church was in the top ten. Let me say this. I have a family to provide for and it is a Biblical mandate that I accomplish that mission. We all know the scripture. My family is not going to go without so that a preacher with 1000 members can add yet another few hundred dollars to an already wealthy estate. The New Testament gives not one example of that occurrence taking place. In Acts, goods were distributed so that no one went without. They weren't distributed in one direction where everything funneled up to the pastor. I am not just talking tithe here.
Money for a new church sign, money to paint the nursery, money for new lights, money for pews, money gas, money for wear and tear on my vehicle(s) because I was driving them all over creation for the church, money for pledges, money for offerings 5 days a week, tithe, church supplies offering, renovations on the church building and the list goes on. SIR????? Where does it stop???
Major portions of my resources and the resources that the Bible says I need to use to provide for my family isn't about the growth of someone else's business. And it certainly isn't when I watch a guy like Pastor Kekel put his kid through a $20,000 a year high school on my dime while living in a virtual museum with church members as maids. No Way Sir. If I were in your church SIR, you'd have to promise and guarantee me, that not one dime of the money that I gave went anywhere near Graham Washington or in an escrow account that you had no control over. You'd slso have to guarentee me that the same applied to every other dime that came into the church which you controled.
That is just the bottom line Sir. I won't even discuss that one.
Jeff
RB said:
"faith that motivates you to be pleasing to God and Pay your required amount. "
There is no "required amount". It is done freely:
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
It is the "law" of sowing and reaping.
"Nonpayment" in my case would amount to me "reaping sparingly" in this world.
Once again. You are treading in dangerous water when you require payment of money as a condition for eternal life. Money has no bearing on eternal life. The streets of heaven are paved with gold and money has no relevance to anything eternal.
Jesus told the rich man to sell all that he had, GIVE TO THE POOR and follow Him. Jesus, who was of the order of Melchisedek, didn't tell him to give 10% to the Jesus ministry before he could follow Him.
You can't put Jesus in a box.
Caesar
And I appreciate that Jeff....
The only way to answer your concern about an organization (of any type) is to not have an organization... but that just leaves a man with out any check and/or balance....
Then we run into the relm of "personal business" which a ministry like "Robert Briggs Ministries" becomes. SO that is out of the picture.
In short you leave no option but no assembly.. no one to motivate us to "Go ye into all the world" which I truly believe would mean in the course of one, maybe two generations the church would be gone. Even with monolithic organizations it is almost gone now.
Leaders within organizations have to lead. Not rebel, but truly lead. In the military did you EVER tell a commander you "Disagreed" and explain why? Did they ever listen?
I am assuming both questions are answered with one word: Yes.
If this is correct, I have to believe if and when I see the need to "disagree" I will be listened to. In fact I have. But I can not, and neither could you, approach that in a less then honorable way. I could not yell, demand, scream, threaten. I had to present, persuade, and postulate.
Jeff, more and more I think you would allow me to pastor you in certain situations. And that to me is an honor. I can not change the fact that you don't like my organization. I respect that. And as a aging (yuck) preacher I can persuade younger ministers, and future ministers within my congregation, to take head and learn from this experience. To be sensitive to people, tender, yet firm. As one writer called it a man of Velvet and Steel.
But I would face this same delemma anywhere I was. Because people are people.
So I choose to help make my organization better. To pray for and midiate for it when I can. To explain if I'm able. And to stand firm where needed.
But never doubt I am doing what I do because I feel it is what God wants from me. I stand before Him and open before you. I don't think anyone can ask any more then that!
Something else Jeff I would like you to consider. Your definition of what a ministry should entail might be best for your family... but what of the other unreached families? Your approach seems to me to imply we have plenty of time, when truth be told, time is constantly running out. For inidivudals, and for naitons (Egypt, Liberia).
You do what you can... no one can ask more... but everyone does not do so much... and so we all suffer for it... the lost the most.
Greed, Stinginess, liberaity, and generosity all have bearing on eternal life.
Just as lies, hypocricy, faithfulness, and devotion have an equal bearing.
I don't think Cursed people as you called them will enter into Eternal life.
Caesar said...
Jesus told the rich man to sell all that he had, GIVE TO THE POOR and follow Him. Jesus, who was of the order of Melchisedek, didn't tell him to give 10% to the Jesus ministry before he could follow Him.
Jeff said...
That is a very good point. I'm being the devils advocate with what I'm going to write but I actually am serious. How about all ministers who have money, houses and lands, selling all that they have a giving to the poor. There is more evidence of that being a mandate than "paying" tithe during the dispensation of grace. How about RWD and Mike Kekel selling all that they have and giving to the poor and following Jesus? I don't see where it would ever happen.
Caesar made an outstanding point. Of course I'd say that because it supports my view but it is a logical and compelling point. There in no talk about "PAYING" tithe but there is continual talk about giving to the poor, fatherless and widow and redistribution of goods to the needy.
That is way more important than the notion of tithing because giving to the poor is definitely referenced in the New Testament but the NTCC doesn't even promote that because it would mean that RWD and Kekel would have to give away their stuff and that would be totally contrary to their capitalism preaching.
Jeff
And CEASar Please stop trying to make it seem that I am putting tithe as a PRE-requisite it is not.... it is a POST-requisite.
Pre being BEFORE
Post Being After
Tithe does nothing before salvation.
Tithe is a obligational requirement After salvation. There is a big difference.
If someone tells the truth that doesn't mean they are saved. But once saved, the will tell the truth. Agreed?
Same, same. Paying tithe does not save a person, but a saved person will pay tithe (in my faith and understanding of scripture)
Plus the BOX ITSELF IS psychologically manipulative because now EVERYONE sees who goes and puts something in it.
More nonsense from Briggs.
Those that know not what they speak of are full of nonsense. Briggs only knows ntcc and how there "churches" are run. With passing a plate. In front of EVERYONE. after talking about ALL Christians pay tithe and give in offerring. Know that is not physcological manuplutive method or what!!!!!!
Putting a container off to the side,not right in the center is not MAKING anyone give to Gods work. If a ntcc was Ever Gods work. But a man that has Manuplated military members for years!
Just like Briggs can not grasp why women were make-up. Not to be like prostitues and only wearing makeup to look better. He can not understand or grasp not having men stand up and leer over folks with a plate. As everyone watches what you put in the offerring plate.
RB said...
The only way to answer your concern about an organization (of any type) is to not have an organization... but that just leaves a man with out any check and/or balance....
Jeff said...
Where are the checks and balances on RWD, and Pastor Kekel? RWD didn't want any checks and balances and he said it himself. That is why he started his own church. He didn't want anyone else controlling his business and he didn't what the government in his business. No checks and balances with the NTCC leadership but they sure want to check their ministers every day they require a report about the money. When is the last time RWD sent you a report on what he does with his money? You don't have to answer that one because we already know. NEVER!!!
They don't trust their ministers, hence the escrow accounts that you guys don't control but you are supposed to trust them? Not me and they wouldn't get a dime of my money. Trust is a two way street. You don't need the organization Pastor Briggs and as independent as you are I don't understand whey you don't see that. I you want to stay with the org that's fine but you don't need them. I do just fine without them and in fact far better.
Jeff
Really good point Jeff.
RB,
My statement was concerning a financial curse and that applies in this life:
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Please read again vs 15.
Once again, You as a a minister speaking the oracles of God, tread dangerous water when you require payment of money from a "new convert" as a condition of continued salvation.
As Jeff said, there is more teaching about giving to the poor than there is about receiving and commanding the payment of tithe. Yet NTCC refuses to engage in any type of "giving" to the poor in any aspect of the concept.
So who is exhibiting stinginess, lies, and hypocrisy, vs liberality, generosity and faithfulness?
The collection Paul received and sent to Jerusalem was for the "poor saints" in that city, not to enrich James and leadership who lived there.
James condemned a flamboyant display of "rich living" in Ch 5. He was the Apostle to the other preachers, was he not?
Loyalty Jeff.. loyalty...
Let me tell you a story. I know you honor and respect the US Army. I do too.. but it is just as dark as you state my organziation to be.
I have a brother in law. He went into the Army in 1973. Served in two war zones, multiple oversees operations. He was an E-7 with 4 years left when he developed problems with the his lungs. It was exasperated by the Georgia environment of his last duty station. He had 18 years in when they medically discharged him. No consideration for time in, no chance to reassign... just out.. he lost his 100% retirement and got a 30% diability instead....
See you can't depend on any human institution completely.... I am fortuante in that I learned that long ago!
Pastor Briggs, with all due respect, I think you would even have a difficult time convincing the Apostle Paul himself of a "mandatory cash payments" that are supposed to be paid after salvation "or else." That is more like extortion.
Paul would bless the "offering" way of giving because he actually taught that. People might be inclined to accept it as "your tradition" but not something taught to us by our Apostle, Paul, the Apostle to us Gentiles. If it was a real requirement our Apostle, (Paul to us Gentiles), would have at least mentioned it once. Really, with all due respect --- MB
RB said:
If someone tells the truth that doesn't mean they are saved. But once saved, the will tell the truth. Agreed?
Same, same. Paying tithe does not save a person, but a saved person will pay tithe (in my faith and understanding of scripture)
Caesar says:
Telling the truth is expressly written in the NT
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
The believer will lose any covetousness and greediness and will receive the fruit of the Spirit.
There is no verse that teaches a Born again believer in Christ will pay tithe or else his name will be blotted out from the Lamb's book of life.
Ceasar... you tread dangerously when you interfer and are NOT speaking as the oracles of God. When you over throw someone's faith simply because you believe it to be wrong.
Again... you show no proof tithe is gone... and agree it is to be done.
Tithing is not a "work" it is an act of Obedience. The works referred to in those passages are concerning a persons use of their TIME. The persuits of their lives. The directions and goals which they go after. These are either wood hay stubble, or gold jews and prescious things.
Tithe is NOT a work! And you would do well to study before you take it in hand to try to persuade men and women otherwise and sow seeds of doubt and discord in their minds. Becuase we do know that there are 6 things which the Lord hates and the 7th is an abomination... "He that soweth discord among the breathren"
RB - you are as annoying as fingernails scratching down a blackboard. Even more annoying than McKekel. UGH!!!! Let it stop!!!!
RB,
I am not trying to antagonize you and really, I am on your side, because we preach Christ.
I am just trying to point out the discrepancies in the statement "All christians pay tithe"
The bible just doesn't back that statement up and I personally am too scared of the judgment of God to stand up and make a dogmatic statement like that.
Your friend in Christ
Caesar
Jesus words were expressly in the NT... and no express word in the NT takes away the Tithe. We conveniently point to his words which do commend tithe as an act of worship and say "That's before grace" when that makes EVERYTHING Jesus said Before Grace and unbinding. As much as I love Paul he is not my authority Jesus is.
Show me, after Jesus commendation of the tithe where the NT says... now that part is gone.... show me where anything accept Sacrafice, and Circumsision, sabbath days, and the eating of flesh is done away with... please... something other then these things!
No one will take that one on.
Does not the same scripture which says there is salvation in no other name then the name of Christ tell us also to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling"
That if we "endure unto the end we shall be saved"
That in the latter times men will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils leaving asside sound doctrines and heep to themselves teachers having itching ears.
I have proven my faith both scripturally, and historically. the church has practiced it for sure since the early foundations. The Lord commended it. Paul confirmed that here men recieve tithes of men.
So you can go with your "feelings" of what Paul might, or could'a. Should'a, would'a said... and I will go with Jesus, the scripture, the early church and my faith.
Does that make me shaky... dangerous... devilish... deceived... or determined, deliberate, and duty bound to be what God wants me to be.
Briggs if your military and understand military like you say you do. Then you would understand about military ready. as a member of the military. You have to be ready for combat,no matter what. Folks get denied entry into the military for many ailments.
Military will take better care of you then ntcc ever would. If you leave ntcc your Not lied about. If you confide to your Gunny. Th3ere not going to go before the entire command and Smear your name. Like ntcc does all the time at there so called church services.
Military members that you serve under EARN your respect. When has a ntcc minister ever Earned anyone's respect. NO,they Demand it,EXPECT it! As if being a fake minister makes them special,above others in the conregation.
All the while blinded by there so called postion.
Military or ntcc,would take the military over that corrupt cult anyday of the week!
Ceasar, thanks and I appreciate that. Could there be a better way to phrase it? Sure... will I give it some thought... yes!
I am not deaf... Anon will assert that I am dumb... but now, my sons' 8th birthday party awaits.. so I am done.
I appreciate the iron sharpening you are giving me. Really I do.
Just parting thought on the concept of requiring people to pay money in order to be saved:
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Just for the record, so I am not accused of sowing discord:
If you attend the church where RB is a pastor, do what he says because he must give an account to God for your soul.
Caesar
I think I read a post a few hours ago that said from Sgt Johnson and I quote...
Mr Briggs you have earned my respect.
Jeff has numerous of time said
I repsect Rev. Briggs
Someone a little while ago said
I respect you
Am I not an NTCC minister? DId I demand their respect or did I earn it? I think I've earned it. And it seems to me that keeps with scripture as well when it tell me to be "held in reputation" from them that are without. (NOT trying to say you are outside of God only he knows that) but you got to admit many here don't agree with me but they show me more and more respect which I value.
I guess you just met all the wrong NTCC preachers that's all Anon.
Thanks Ceasar...
I teach people to do what the Bible says..
To obey their conscious
and be ready to give an account.
The rest I leave with God.
BUT THIS was not always so! What Can I say... I've grown up in 23 years. God help me the day I stop growing...
Honestly, Pastor Briggs, once again, with all due respect, you DO NOT even see in ANY of the gospels, where Jesus told anybody at all to PAY 1/10th cash money payments to the church.
Jesus NEVER commanded it to be done not even once, the books of Acts doesn't command it and neither does ANY of the rest of the New Testament command it. Jesus commanded us to love one another and many other things but he NEVER commanded 1/10th cash money payments to be made to the church.
Again, with all due respect, --- MB
MB
Caesar quoted...
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
profession before many witnesses.
Jeff said...
So if you've coveted after money you've erred from the faith. We know that RWD has coveted after money? He said he prayed to become a millionaire and I heard him with my own ears. If that is not coveting after money I don't know what is. RB, I don't want to drive this train forever but you've regularly asked for someone to prove where it says in the Bible that the mandate of tithing has gone away with the law. Well I say, show me in the New Testament where it says that tithing was carried over from the law unto the dispensation of grace?
Well the closest proof I can find which we've already posted is this,
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
The word necessity in Strongs means, "necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty"
I would say tithe money clearly falls in that category. That is the way I see it Sir. That may not be proof enough for you but it is proof enough for me along with all the other reasons that I've stated. I don't see any scripture in the New Testament which even remotely proves that tithing is a mandate that you either follow or you go to hell. That is my point and that is my story and I'm sticking to it and in my opinion 2Cor 9:7 is proof enough because of the definition of the word "necessity" which I've posted.
I didn't write it, Mr. Strong did, and he was a whole lot better at translating words into the English language than I am.
Sir I understand how you feel and you and I just differ on this one and we've both given our reasons and rebuttals. We are simply not going to agree on this one but it's no big deal. I can't convince the whole world to see my point of view and you won't be able to either.
Jeff
With all due respect you can't even use Mt. 23:23 and Lk. 11:42 for a "justification" of mandatory 1/10th cash money payments. The mere mention of tithe does not insinuate the preaching of it as a commandment.
The main thrust of what Jesus was trying to get across in these two scriptures was the condemning of the Pharisees' "outward" piety. What Jesus was doing here in these two scriptures was giving a "slap in the face" to these Phariesees because of their self righteousness.
The point that Jesus was trying to get across was that the Pharisees OMITTED the WEIGHTIER matters of the LAW. These weightier matters of the LAW were judgment, mercy, and faith.
Jesus was rebuking these scribes and Pharisees for being hypocrites who would make clean the outside of the cup but within they are full of EXTORTION. Extortion means obtaining something by threats.
After the New Testament church was born over in the book of Acts on the day of Pentecost you never see the apostle Paul, (the minister for us Gentiles appointed by Jesus Himself), write about "mandatory" cash money payments to the church or "else."
Offerings, yes, monetary support for the church, yes, living of the gospel, yes, commanded mandatory cash money payments or "else," absolutely not... Again, with all due respect, civility, and curtesy, --- MB
One time I went to church and had gas and people found fault with me for farting its a part of nature man this church is a cult! I AM HUMAN COME ON!
Furthermore, with all due respect, (even if you tried to apply Mt. 23:23 & Lk. 11:42 as justification for mandatory 1/10cash payments), Jesus did NOT even mention money here, but mint, rue, all manner of herbs, anise, and cummin.
Jesus was showing how these self righteous Pharisees were so meticulous about the Old Testament law, devoured widow's houses, for a pretense made long prayers, but they passed right over faith, mercy, and the love of God. They loved to outwardly appear righteous unto men.
With all due respect and civility. --- MB
Jeff... here ya go
(Mat 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(Mat 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:21) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
(Mat 5:22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
(Mat 5:23) Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
(Mat 5:24) Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
(Mat 5:25) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
(Mat 5:26) Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
(I HAD TO DELETE THIS PART FOR SPACE)
(Mat 5:47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
(Mat 5:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Close as I can come...
I agree to disagree.. You folks have a wonderful Friday, and weekend. Enjoy life.
Night!
"Breakaway"
Grew up in a small town
And when the rain would fall down
I'd just stare out my window
Dreaming of what could be
And if I'd end up happy
I would pray (I would pray)
Trying hard to reach out
But when I tried to speak out
Felt like no one could hear me
Wanted to belong here
But something felt so wrong here
So I prayed I could break away
[Chorus:]
I'll spread my wings and I'll learn how to fly
I'll do what it takes til' I touch the sky
And I'll make a wish
Take a chance
Make a change
And breakaway
Out of the darkness and into the sun
But I won't forget all the ones that I love
I'll take a risk
Take a chance
Make a change
And breakaway
Wanna feel the warm breeze
Sleep under a palm tree
Feel the rush of the ocean
Get onboard a fast train
Travel on a jet plane, far away (I will)
And breakaway
[Chorus]
Buildings with a hundred floors
Swinging around revolving doors
Maybe I don't know where they'll take me but
Gotta keep moving on, moving on
Fly away, breakaway
I'll spread my wings
And I'll learn how to fly
Though it's not easy to tell you goodbye
I gotta take a risk
Take a chance
Make a change
And breakaway
Out of the darkness and into the sun
But I won't forget the place I come from
I gotta take a risk
Take a chance
Make a change
And breakaway, breakaway, breakaway
RB quoted...
(Mat 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Jeff said...
Good scriptures and pertinent. The only problem is, there are about 5000 other mandates in the Old Testament Law that no churches practice any longer to include the NTCC. So why make sure to practice the part where you get 10% of everyones income? I know why. Because with modern day Christian churches, "ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY".
What did RWD say were the only two things that really mattered. I heard him say this for certain. "MONEY AND NUMBERS". That is what it's all about. The NTCC and Creflo Dollars may differ drastically, the NTCC and the Catholic church may differ drastically, the NTCC and the and TD Jakes church may differ drastically, the NTCC and Eddie Long's church many differ drastically. The NTCC may differ drastically from every other church there is from a doctrinal stand point but don't you find it a little odd that with very few exceptions there is one area that none of them differ. They all unanimously agree that (with very, very, very few exceptions) that you should give your money to the church.
Get rid of the scriptures and the Bible and the Law and Grace and any mention and all doctrinal veriations between all the different denominations and they will all agree on one practice. You should give your money to the church and if I'm lying I'm dying. That is why I can with complete certainty say, that with modern day Christian churches, "It's all about the MONEY"!!!
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
The last church. The modern day church. The only church mentioned that was rich with goods but very poor spiritually. The only church that Christ had absolutely nothing good to say about.
Now look at a different church:
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
The poor church but spiritually, they were very rich. Christ had nothing but good things to say about this church.
When it becomes all about money, you lack spiritually and that my friend is the condition of modern day Christianity. Laodicea all the way and the NTCC all the way.
What did Christ say: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
You got this one wrong Pastor Briggs. Way wrong. As greedy as the Catholic church is, (much like the NTCC) at least they try to really look out for the poor in many foreign countries. Their works will walk circles around the NTCCs in the day of judgment and you can bet your last dollar on that one. Hey I didn't write chapters 2 and 3 in Revelation. You can thank Christ for that one but there is a distinct reason that he made perticular reference to poverty and wealth and spirituality and the lact thereof.
Sir, sit down and with an open mind really take a good look at Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 and get a feel for the spirit was trying to tell the churches. You better believe that amoung other things, money had something to do with it. There is a reason that Christ said that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. There is a reason that Christ told the young rich man to sell all that he had. There is a reason that Paul said, "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith". Rev 2 and 3 covered the same topic in a different way. That is why all these churches teach that you must pay tithe because it's all about the money.
Jeff
RB said:
Jeff... here ya go
(Mat 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Caesar says:
I wrote this before I read your last response, Jeff. I didn't even think of Rev 2 and 3.
Once again, I am not trying to antagonize. I am trying to rightly divide the word of truth.
If you attend the church where RB is a pastor, then please be willing to adhere to what he teaches. He must give an account for those that he leads.
Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
The Law and prophets was finished and fulfilled in Christ's death. Christ was the subject of the Law and prophets.
Christ ushered in a New Covenant based on faith in His death, burial, and resurrection.
If we accept the premise that the law and prophets are still in effect for New Testament Christians now, and the law and prophets have not been fulfilled by Christ's death, then it is still an error to say a person ceases to be a christian if they cease to pay tithe.
The Israelites did not cease to be Israelites when they did not tithe.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
God still honored His promise in spite of their disobedience.
A child of God will not cease to be a child of God if he does not tithe.
If we believe every jot and tittle of the Law is still in effect, even though Christ said "It is finished" then we must fulfill all the Law:
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
We are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
It is an error to preach that a man loses his salvation if he doesn't pay tithe.
It is true that we reap the consequences of our actions in this life.
It is true that God will honor faith:
and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
You cannot buy salvation and you cannot rent it on a monthly basis. It is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
It is an all too common fallacy that paying your tithe makes you "right with God".
Hey, have a good weekend, from Just another guy on a blog:
Caesar
Wow Jeff, this point is, (seriously), right on target!!! I actually want to copy what you have wrote. I never looked at Revelation 2 and 3 like that. It actually makes a great message!
Reminds me of Acts 3 where Peter said, "Silver and gold have I none;" ...but Peter was rich enough spiritually to be used of God to cause that lame man, who had never walked, to walk and leap and praise God!
NEW (TASKAMENT
0 CHRISTIAN CHURCH
LOL, LOL, LOL,
Sigmund Fread (Monthly) $1000
Micheal Johsnon (Month) $0
Mr Briggs,
No one can never say you don't have a sense of humor!
You bring up a good point, Dirty Rotten Aetheists place more money in the offering because it makes them feel good.
Just go ahead and add $200.oo to my zero balance please!
Bro Johnson
Actually,
Mr Briggs, there is truth in humor. The last Korean church I attended did JUST THAT!!!
They listed the Tithe payers.
Not so quite a novel concept, eh?
The great think about a Korean church is that you can eat a good meal at the church fellowship hall after service (That is not why I go, but hey, Kimchi is Kimchi wherever you go!)
Bro Johnson
I can't lie no more,
All these scriptures and back and forth talk about tithe is making me dizzy.
I don't even read word for word anymore on this blog subject, I just skim through and find anything relevant as it pertains to me.
Sorry folks, this blog just got too long, too much smoke and mirrors
We all agree with whom we have a common gripe with, just keep the blog on target!!
"Much learning hath made me mad..."
Still no offers on my challenge.
Bro Johnson
double-D said,
"Once again, Jeff, you are on the cutting edge of sanity, here."
Don and Ange said,
Since Jeff and the ntcc are 100% opposite of each other, that means that the ntcc is on the cutting edge of insanity. Being in the ntcc was the most insane thing that ever happened to me in my life.
I remember in the middle of a service while the pastor was preaching, he just started singing, "This train don't carry no cigarette suckers, This train don't carry no cigarette suckers, this train don't carry no cig, cig, cigarette suckers." Each verse after that got worse and worse.
"This train don't carry no pants wearing women". "This Train don't carry no shorts wearing men" "This train don't carry no face painting women".
During this spectacle the brethren started getting worked up into a frenzy, shouting and dancing while new people were walking out the door. One brother was doing somersaults around the alter.
Church service lasted for hours and then we went to Ihop and made fun of the people with blue mohawks and nose rings while we ordered crackers and butter with our coffee because we were too strapped for cash to get any type of meal. I can't blame it all on tithe though because as lower enlisted servicemen we did have other Servicemen's Home related expenses like giving are money to the cigarette sucker singing "pastor."
Don and Ange
Those preachers that I met that were the wrong ones. Were Defeshsco,Mike K,Olson,rw davis,johnson. All demanded respect. But had Earned NO respect!
AND many more that have big heads and big egos.
I really could care less if Jeff and johnson respect you as a person Briggs. Your in ntcc,your in a cult. If you teach false teachings. Your leading people to Hell. Not sure why anyone would respect you for that!
Am I not an NTCC minister
Get it Briggs your in a cult. That if it had a web site and really publized what they believe. Folks would run away in droves. Your Not a minister. Since ntcc is a Organization full of False teachings. mmm,what does the Bible say about false teachers?
You can earn someone's respect as a humane being. But your not a minister. Neither is Rw davis a DR.!! Or Mike K,johnson,olson,the whole lot of YA'LL ministers!
Because if you were,you would not be teaching and preaching Lie's and twisting the scripture's. To keepo people in your control!
Anonymous said...
If you teach false teachings. Your leading people to Hell. Not sure why anyone would respect you for that!
Jeff said...
Because he shows us respect, that's why. Follow peace with all men or else YOU won't see the Lord. Even if you are not trying to see the Lord it's a good practice to live by. I used to be in the same church that Pastor Briggs is in. I don't hold that against him. I don't like what his church organization stands for and how they treat people but Pastor Briggs has been alright around here. We've had our differences, so be it. For the most part I haven't agreed with him all day. Big deal. He hasn't agreed with me and he is not supposed to.
Pastor Briggs hasn't lived a perfect life and neither have I, have you?
Yeah I think the NTCC is a cult but I once didn't feel that way. In fact I felt just the opposite. But you know what, you are entitled to think however you want, but Pastor Briggs is just as welcome on this blog as anyone else and more so than some for sure.
Jeff
could really care less if brigss a false teacher is welcolm on this little ole blog! whooptie Do!
anonymus said,
"could really care less if brigss a false teacher is welcolm on this little ole blog! whooptie Do!"
want some crackers with your sad bitter soup sandwhich?
I would only need crackets IF I was bitter.
While a cult preacher leading folks to hell. No recpect for folks that are LIARS!coming on here and being polite while preaching the Bible with ntcc twisted scripture POLICIES that were SINS!
Hello April.
So you have no respect. If you were running this blog, no one would come on here and nothing would get accomplished. You can't think outside the box.
you cry for change. change happens slowly. you still cry. have a tear with your root beer.
Anonymous said...
I would only need crackets IF I was bitter. While a cult preacher leading folks to hell. No recpect for folks that are LIARS
Jeff said...
First thing. It's obvious that you have no idea what this blog is all about. It's not about just trying to place an eternal divide between everyone who is in the NTCC and everyone who is out. Have you forgotten that we also used to be in the NTCC and we went along with it also? No one held a gun up to your head when you were in the NTCC. Yeah they used some real serious and devious psychological manipulation and often that is worse than a gun, but you can't expect the NTCC to shut down or change their ways in a day. And you also can't expect everyone who's in the NTCC to leave just because you call it a cult. You must try to rationally and logically paint a picture of what the NTCC is really all about and that is not done just by jumping on guys like Pastor Briggs.
Briggs ain't no dummy and in fact he sure seems to be a whole lot smarter than you are. I don't expect Pastor Briggs to leave the NTCC tomorrow or for that matter I wouldn't expect him to leave it at all. If it was that simple we would have left from day one. Not only that someone made a good point about change. Everyone complains about the way the NTCC is to include me but some folks don't even recognize when there are beneficial changes within the organization that are taking place. I do recognize them and even though I can't stand the NTCC, I'd rather see some folks pipe down a little rather than continue with their same abusive ways.
You are looking at things from a purely one dimensional and one sided stand point. I can tell you for sure that I see a bigger picture than you do and there are things that you just don't know.
Yeah, your idea is a great one. Just run everyone off from this blog who doesn't agree with the exers just like the NTCC likes to run people away from their church who don't agree with them. Then, put a divide between you and everyone who is still in the NTCC and what have you accomplished? Nothing. You'd be the exact same way as the NTCCers who ostracize everyone who leaves their organization.
Well in case you haven't noticed, Pastor Briggs isn't that way. He shares dialogue with use exers. Whether I agree with his views or not, he is not just shunning all of us just because we have a "LOT" of negative stuff to say about the church that he is still a part of. You're blind as a bat.
This blog isn't here just so we can all blast the NTCC and everyone in it. Some of us are trying to accomplish something. What are you trying to accomplish with your approach? Make every single NTCCer in the whole world mad at you and visa versa? Wow, you'll accomplished a lot with that approach. There is a time for everything. There is a time for Peace and a time for WAR!!!
I've gone to war plenty on this blog, and I also recognize when it's time to call a truce for the sake of the greater good. Like someone wrote; you need to think outside the box.
If there is anyone who expects me to get ill and be mad with every single last person who is in the NTCC, it's not going to happen. Everyone is welcome on this blog and for the 100th time that includes Pastor Briggs. So please stop trying to jump all over the dude every single time because you ain't accomplishing jack squat with that approach. This blog doesn't have over 100,000 hits because I've ran off every single NTCCer who's ever come near it. I wish more NTCCers would come on here and keep posting on this blog.
That is how you break the grip of the control mongers. You can't see that? Think about what I'm saying, please and we will accomplish a whole lot more around here.
Jeff
And not only that, if you read the most recent thread you'll see that Pastor Briggs has a real nice HK 40 cal. How in the world am I supposed to convince him to sell it to me at a bargain price if you make him upset like I do all the time? I want that gun and Pastor Briggs doesn't need it as much as I do. He has a whole church full of body guards. LOL.
I want that Heckler & Koch .40!!! It will be a nice addition to my collection. Give it up RB.
Jeff
sorry Mr. briggs is not a preacher. until he preaches Biblical truths. He is just a false teacher.
100,000 hits But you do not have that many Posters on your blog!
Anonymous said...
sorry Mr. briggs is not a preacher. until he preaches Biblical truths. He is just a false teacher.
100,000 hits But you do not have that many Posters on your blog!
Jeff said...
Whatever. How many people have called you and said "I've left the NTCC and my life is great and your blog played a big role in my decision and I'm part of a good church now"? Probably none. So why don't you start a blog and get the word out instead of trying to find something wrong with everyone else who's trying to do something about it?
And as far a "PASTOR" Briggs goes: If you don't like him why don't you call him on the phone like I did and tell him? You'd be wasting his time and yours because nothing would get accomplished because you probably wouldn't allow it. You know what? The more people that jump on Pastor Briggs the more I like the man! Some people don't even give the guy a fair shot. He ain't a bad guy. So big deal he's in the NTCC. SO WERE YOU AND SO WAS I!!!
Have you forgot? Whatever...
The man stands behind his convictions and he's not too insecure to discuss them with dudes like me. It doesn't matter if we agree. He and I definitely don't agree about tithe but he ain't such a PUNK that he won't even discuss it. You apparently don't understand leadership and this ain't a boast but I do. Pastor Briggs possess better leadership traits than probably every one of his superiors.
My only thing with Pastor Briggs is that he'd do so much better with his very own church. He could name it something like the Good News Christian Church. He doesn't need the NTCC and if he has one insecurity that's it. You just don't understand. So be it, but you better believe that I do understand leadership. I'm generally participative and delegative with my approach but there does come a time to be an authoritarian and I'm getting ready to be that way with your comments by deleting them if you keep jumping on my friend Pastor Briggs. It would be different if you were accomplishing something but your approach accomplishes nothing. Briggs ain't a bad guy y'all. Believe it.
Jeff
Boy I like the delete button sometimes. This blog has a purpose. It's purpose is not to run every single person off to include me.
Jeff
Well, Sunday service load finishes and I want a quick read of all the Cyber places I Frequent. Checked back on Jeff's blog to see how the gun dialogue is going and I find this.
Thanks Jeff I can honestly say your defense of my "rights" is very nobel. I do believe I can count you as a friend, albeit of a differing opinion on our Religious issues. Thank you for that. The world is too small to have a huge number of enemies.
To the Anon. person who thinks I preach lies I ask you to intellectually show me where. Give me a list... one or two items if you can't come up with more. And I will show you my scriptureal reasons for my belief. If you can convince me I'm wrong I am man enough to admit it. If not I will still be firm in my faith.
But please don't ask me to take you serious if you want to stay hidden behind anonymity and insult.
Want to call me you can find my number on the blog I write http://ntccpasadenatx.org/blogs2 or on the church locator for NTCC.
I come on this blog for several reasons,
1. to defend my organization when I see it necessry.
2) to defend myself as in the case of the last exchange (it started when people thought an anon. person posting was me so I set the record straight)
3) because I believe there are many people out there with legitamate complaints. That could be heard if they would approach this thing the right way. I know I hear, and I have been bettered as a pastor for it.
On our first encounter Jeff and I left as enemies. We now have common ground and I think that's good. I don't think he is the devil I once thought him to be, and I judge from his post that the feeling is mutual. That's progress for BOTH of us. Because we are both striving to be right with God. Even Jesus did not condone his disciples attacking those that "followed not" with "us" but rather said... leave them alone.
I can appreciate that for many here this is what they fell God wants them to do. I would just simply challenge them to ask themselves the question "Is the way I am handlign what he wants em to do the right way".
If you want to know what kind of a "preacher" I am just listen to some of my sermons on the blog. There are over 60 of them. That's a good samping of verious times and conditons and see for yourself.
As for comments on my blog, you are right I have a lot of hits, and little commenting going on but that's because of two things - people usually don't comment on subjects they agree with 2) I make people identify themselves when they post. I think that's fair. If you want to have disclosure from me, I want to get some from you.
Anyway... thanks again Jeff. If and when I decide to get rid of my H&K I give you my WORD you get first dibs. But I won't be ready to do that until I buy me a Kimber!
Hey, Sour-Pus ANON:
We all have axes to grind with NTCC and trust me, I know where you are coming from.
There are good folks in NTCC, and Mr. Briggs is one of them, give the man a break!
You attacking Mr. Briggs is the same as you attacking me. Back Off!
Piety Parties are only intended for one.
No, I am not going to give you my number so we can sit down and talk about it either.
I will give you a number to call:
Dial 1-800-JESUS and tell him what you want!
If you need the Holy Ghost, tell him what you want
If you need Salvation, tell him what you want
Why? Because Jesus is on the Mainline Now!!
Bro Johnson
LOL. LOL. LOL. That was crazy. You sound like you are back in the NTCC again. LOL. I think we've been talking to Pastor Briggs too much. Ha, ha. Bro. Johnson, I might need to expel Pastor Briggs from this blog. He is starting to wear off on us. He ain't a bad guy. I don't blame him one bit for standing up for his convictions. I certainly plan to.
Jeff
That article was plagiarism of:
http://www.thebodysoulconnection.com/EducationCenter/fight.html
I guess this doctor is acceptible just like Napoleon Hill and other metaphysical teachers are in the eyes of NTCC.
Mr Johnson,
I see you wrote about Rev Gonzalez above and just so you know they are supported financially. Also he has been a missionary to panama for over 4 years and was going to be sent back to the u.s. because pastor knows that its a little more difficult when your a missionary to a country (which when you go its by choice, you're not just thrown out there), but rev gonzalez so loves the life,the people and the work of God there that he chose to stay. he once told us he wouldnt minding staying tgere til he dies.
It's kind of hard to consider Rev. Gonzales a missionary. He is in Panama, and he's Panamanian. That's his culture. No wonder he is so happy there. Look how far away from Pastor Davis he is, and he's among his own people. He is fulfilling the dream that so many NTCCers could not do: namely, to be with the people that they really love and also love and appreciate them.
Having said that, I don't think it is the missionaries who suffer. From what I have heard as a former NTCC minister it seems that the proselytes are the ones that are suffering at the time of conversion and continue in a state of poverty. NTCC collects tithes from them I am sure, and they themselves are the poor ones that the rich churches in America should be concerned about. I am sure they go without on a regular basis as they work and strive to please the American missionaries and God (in their mind at least). In the NT Paul took up contributions to help their poor brothers and sisters in other churches. This is a facet of the early church that we just don't see in NTCC. But I will say, they may not be the only greedy ones. How can RW Davis and the Kekels live so luxuriously while the ones who also work so hard for the Lord struggle to just barely survive. Note: Rev. McDonald and his wife were very overweight after spending many years in the Philippines. Yet he told us that one of the women in the Philippines who was either in his church or seminary only had enough money for one meal. That is outright hypocrisy! I don't think for one minute that he suffered there. But his poor filipina converts? Yes, I think they do.
Listen, a missionary is perhaps in the strictest sense not definable, but there are people who work hard to get missionary work basically down to a science. Among them, after their scholarly research using the Bible as their key reference, they deduce that a missionary is someone who brings the Gospel (an evangelist) to a people OTHER than their OWN people. Rev. Gonzales in my opinion is hardly a missionary. I think the man is home now. No wonder he is so happy there. He has everyone vamboozled into putting him into 'Missionary' status so that he has bragging rights, and he is as can be there I am sure. I think he is hardly suffering because he does not have to deal with what most missionaries deal with and that is "culture shock." The ones that will suffer will be the ones that he works so hard to proselytize, because I figure he will win poor people and make tithe mandatory for them so he can live a nice life and eat well, while not sharing much if any with them, because Pastor Davis teaches that the church doesn't do charity work.
Now, on the subject of missionary work, NTCC seems to have a very very poor understanding of real missionary work. What they do is produce other churches among foreigners which are governed by American missionaries. How many years have they been in the Philippines and they have been rotating American "missionaries" over and over again. When will it be a Philippine church governed by their own people?
To Rev. Gonzales' benefit, I would say he is maybe an evangelist, if he is truly preaching the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and not mixing it with a bunch of poison, but not in my opinion, after my studies on the subject of missionary work, a genuine missionary in the strictest sense. An evangelist, maybe, but not a missionary. Sorry, Bro. Gonzales :(
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