Boy am I a dirty rotten sinner; I watched the Superbowl. Well I figured that if Pastor Kekel's son was allowed to play football throughout high school, there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with me watching the Superbowl. Do you think? Is it a sin to watch it but not a sin to play it? While I was in the NTCC I was taught that it was all a sin, but thanks to the Kekels, I was able to mature spiritually and discern right from wrong all by myself. Because the way I figure it, if it's ok to play football, it's ok to watch it. It was a great Superbowl. I hope none of you NTCCers missed it.
Oh I almost forgot. You guys had church tonight. Even though it's not a sin to watch the Superbowl it would be a sin to miss your 5th service of the week and God forbid the NTCC doesn't got that last weekly offering. I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to start a church and have 7 services a week, (one every day) and if someone misses a service, I'll preach: "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is", and then that way, I can get two extra offerings. Ha, ha. I'll just make sure I don't hold service on Sunday evening so I don't miss too many games during football season. Hey why not? If it's good enough for Pastor Kekel's son, it's good enough for me.
Jeff
225 comments:
1 – 200 of 225 Newer› Newest»Im surprised that the Renegade Preacher in Texas didn't have a Superbowl Suday Eve service with drinks for all and chips to watch the game! This is a major money maker for the church!!
While NTCC preachers are at it, lets watch some videos of foot washing in action!!
Bro Johnson
Pastor Briggs lets up a little bit:
"Hi all! I have decided to remove the registration requirement for the sermon downloads. At least for the time being. The files are inteded to be a blessing and I would love for you to forward them to friends and family if you think they could help someone. But they must be kept INTACT no editing allowed.
Thanks!
God bless and keep you,
Pastor Briggs"
Jeff said,
"Boy am I a dirty rotten sinner; I watched the Superbowl."
Don and Ange said,
I remember in the ntcc, when the NFL playoffs rolled around, we would be soul winning on post and always end up at the recreation center watching playoffs and Superbowl football right before the service started. The preacher would also show up at the Rec. center and watch for about 30 minutes. How edifying is that when you are supposed to be getting ready to preach?
You know that you are in a cult when.... You spend a couple of hours a week watching TV at a department store. You ntcc'rs, just go out and buy yourselves a TV and stop being such hypocrites.
You would be more spiritual if you had a TV and refrained from watching the bad stuff than you are not having one and using it as a badge of honor.
Ange and I watched the one-eyed-monster last night and seen the Packer's whoop up on the Steelers. I also stopped by Pizza Hut and got a pizza and some wings. Let me tell you, the place was rocking and prowling. They were serving beer in there and I just had to get out of there as fast as I could.
Not too long ago we had been given a gift card at Applebee's for Christmas and we went there for dinner. It was a Friday night and let me tell you, the crowd there was really juiced up. They were rocking and prowling just like kekel said on his post about dogs and tomboys. The young mennonites where dressed up in their prowling outfits with their bonnets and dresses, getting a bite to eat.
Maybe if the ntcc would stop acting like spiritual giants and would come down out of the clouds of super spirituality, they would reach people by being real. Maybe having a devil-vision or the sinner-net is not a sin after all. Maybe having a double standard of allowing your child to play football and preaching against watching football at the same time to a different audience is what makes your religion dry and that's why your churches are dying.
Don and Ange
Pastor Briggs said,
"Hi all! I have decided to remove the registration requirement for the sermon download"
Don and Ange said,
Wow what a blessing! We have been anticipating the day when these messages would no longer be restricted so we could have unrestricted access to them. I know my friends and family are desperately waiting for these messages to arrive at their e-doorstep or in their e-mail box.
I would however, like to be able to edit them just a tiny bit. I'm afraid that my friends and relatives might think that the ntcc is a cult if we don't get rid of the mellow-drama that drips from these messages.
Do any of the sermon downloads say, "Now, remember, after the whole world gets saved then all SIX PLUS BILLION INHABITANTS must immediately start paying 1/10th cash money payments to the church," of course there will be no financial disclosure at all.
Wow, sounds like a good reason why we have a congress and a senate, to keep the government in check or else we would still be under the king of England.
But how does the "pastor" stay in check when the congregation wants to know a financial disclosure about where every penny of the offerings go???
Bro Johnson said, "While NTCC preachers are at it, lets watch some videos of foot washing in action!!"
Lurch says,
...............................PREACH!
Do they give tail massages too?
HO
Hunter! You are shameless! Yes, they gave unwanted tail massages. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!
Zeek
Lighten up, Zeek! I wasn't askin' for me; I handles my own business! I was just thinking of EZ... tail massage would be right up his "alley" [wink] if you know what I mean.
HO
Oh! Now that just burns my gizzard! Why don't you mind your own P-s and Q-s Hunter. You're no better than me with your constant slithering around the pre-pubescent chicas! Why don't you just look at your own habits before you try to "straighten" me up!
EZ
Fellas, I just gotta say...
ROTF-LMTO!
Giz
And you Jazzy J the "Soul" DJ.. you one of the stupidest NCO's the army has ever created. Your logic is as flawed as your wife's choice in a husband. Keep writing your threat about God silicing people... that's the kind of stuff the Army would love to read.. don't want another wack job going off like that Major.. I still have the one where you threatened me and my kids.... oh, and I know what unit your in so I cold forward this stuff to them in the same way you kept trying to get me in trouble... what a crazy.
You say "No preacher would ever stand out in NTCC for fear of the establishment" if one does... He's renegade... You say all preachers are the same.. then call me Renegade.... which one is it? Make up your mind... and learn to THINK becuase you come to some o the stupidest conclusions of all. At least Greg and Jeff don't come off sounding stupid.. bitter maybe but not stupid... you well.. I'll leave it to you to "interpret" what I am saying....
Oh, for the record... Don why would you need to edit a sermon if it prove your point that we are vapid preachers that in every service preach down to women etc etc... wouldn't the sermon stand by iteself and prove it's point without you warping it to make it into something you want it to be.... That by the way was why I refuse to let my article stay on Greg's site "Distortion"
Here Beal read this and then shut up about Tithe.. We didn't invent the concept.. the early church supported the idea.. and we still believe it. If you don't that's fine.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2003/jun6.html
Jeff... I'm not planning to spam you.
RB said...
At least Greg and Jeff don't come off sounding stupid.. bitter maybe but not stupid...
Jeff said...
Not bitter at all Pastor Briggs. Just a realist who realizes how destructive and how much of a menace the NTCC can be to mankind. The story that Don wrote shows just how ineffective RWD is at picking pastors. These gay guys were supposed to be Holy Ghost filled, sanctified Christians of the most noble sort proven to have followed the Bible explicitly. The reality is that they were sexual deviant hypocrites who were no more holy then Uday Hussein. In fact Uday was probably more holy. RWD has a history of picking creeps and degenerates as NTCC pastors and folks are supposed to have faith in the NTCC as a holy Christian organization? You've got to be kidding me Pastor Briggs. You are part of an organization filled with a bunch of creeps.
RWD may be good at purchacing real-estate with other people's money but he has a horrible history of choosing pastors. So therefor I have no faith in any of them and I have no logical reason to believe that any of them were called by anyone other than RWD himself. RWD picked Denis, three gays at a minimum, a whole bunch of abusive pastors who I've named many times, ministers who run off with other woman and the list goes on. A son in law who started dating his daughter and fondling her when she was a young teenager. The NTCC; a holy organization? Are you kidding me? The NTCC is full of a bunch of jerks just like RWD, and if you are any different than they are Pastor Briggs than you should no longer be with the NTCC.
Jeff
Jeff said...
Here Beal read this and then shut up about Tithe.. We didn't invent the concept.. the early church supported the idea.. and we still believe it. If you don't that's fine.
Jeff said...
Why does the NTCC use 1 Cor 16:2 to support the mandate of tithing when it has nothing what so ever to do with tithing at all? Because mandatory tithing isn't as cut and dry as some folks like to make it. In fact it's not even close. People have been committing robbery and thievery for centuries but that doesn't make it right or justifiable to be practiced by folks who didn't event it. Additionally, what does Mike Beal have to do with this blog? I don't endorse him nor did I make him an NTCC minister. RWD and and or the general board picked Beal and that is not a good indicator of RWD's ability to pick ministers.
I feel sorry for Mike Beal but I don't endorse him. Your organization picked Mike Beal and he went to your seminary but you don't want to take any responsibility for his actions. His issues are largely the result of his association with the NTCC for 2 decades or more. The NTCC s full of folks who have issues not much different than Beal's and it has nothing to do with spirituality or the lack there of. Folks who are off are off. There are folks in this world who are off who've had no involvement with Christianity and there are plenty of people in the NTCC who are way off who have. I don't agree with Beal's approach or tactics but he's done no where near the damage to mankind as the NTCC. Beal has adversely effected a small group of people. The NTCC has adversely effected tens of thousands with their shenanigans.
Mike Beal does not represent me or this blog nor will he, and knowing what I know about the NTCC, I would no longer ever represent the NTCC and if you are a man of God, you shouldn't either Pastor Briggs.
Jeff
It's interesting to note that you will never find Paul's, (the apostle to the Gentiles), name, and the word tithe in any of Paul's letters. This man of God probably received more revelations from God than anybody except for maybe John of the book of Revelation.
You will find that in all of Paul's revelations he never once mentioned mandatory 1/10 monetary cash payments to be "paid" to the church.
Paul said they that preach the gospel should live of the gospel and he said if any man give let him give as HE PURPOSETH in his heart, which me, and many other Christians believe.
Somehow Paul did not reveal this 1/10 mandatory cash payment that Christians must keep paying 1/10 cash money payments in order to keep their salvation. I do please ask ANYONE (including Robert) to show otherwise, PLEASE!!!
No one can show otherwise but this particular thread has gotten side tracked. It's not about tithing but about my great joy with watching the Superbowl and whether or not I should be considered a sinner because I watched the Superbowl? This thread isn't about Pastor Briggs, or Mike Beal or Bro Johnson. I've also gotten sidetracked. Am I a sinner for watching the Superbowl is the question?
Jeff
Wow,
It's amazing how that when people make a living blasting people and then they come onto this blog and talk to us the same way they talk to their congregations. They go bezerk and lose their sanity. I guess they are not used to getting jacked up, or maybe RWD is not doing his job any more.
I know that we are supposed to just shut up and be good X-ers but I'm sorry, that's not my gift. We are no longer walking mats. We aren't members of your church that are going to listen or care about anything you say anyway.
I learned a new 25 cent word today, vapid. I didn't say that your sermons were tasteless just mellow dramatic, and that's mainly because of the fear/frustration sermon.
I think if you went to the army with what you have, they would think that you are a nut-job. If we however, went to the army with what we have on the ntcc, they would probably shut you down and make your servicemen's homes off limits for good.
I'm not accusing you of anything but what I'm saying is that if you look at the overall pattern of sexual deviant pastors and their behavior in the ntcc, you would have to question the wisdom of allowing soldiers to frequent the ntcc servicemen's homes and churches.
As for Bro. Johnson, I think he threw a rock into a pack of dogs and you are the one that got hit. Look what MLJ and his wife have had to endure at the hands of abusive ntcc preachers. You have the nerve to call him a one of the stupidest NCO's in the Army? You amaze me RB. You sound like you are crying out for attention. I hope God gives you some peace soon.
Don and Ange
No Jeff you are not a sinner for watching the superbowl.
Just like there is no harm in Grant Kekel playing football then there SURE isn't any harm in watching football!!! As a matter of fact the superbowl could have actually brought us all closer together if we could have watched it together!!!
Many Christians and preachers watched either part of it or all of it. People that went to church watched part of it on their computers. Jeff your not a sinner for watching the superbowl. It's wholesome entertainment!!! just like video games and family DVD's!!!
Jeff said,
"Am I a sinner for watching the Superbowl?"
Don and Ange said,
It depends if you hooped and hollered. People will jump up and down shouting for their team but they sit in the pews like a knot on a dogs butt and will not jump up and down shouting for the ntcc preacher.
It's an outrage but we also watched the Superbowl and our sin is that we layed up out of church to see it. We were on the road and could have stopped by an ntcc and visited, thereby boosting their attendance by 50%, but we wouldn't have felt comfortable.
Don and Ange
RB (Are you Pastor Briggs?),
Seriously? How does the link you provide prove mandatory tithe? Did you even read it before you recommended it to us?
While the article cites Genesis and Numbers, it also cites ancient non-Jewish and non-Christian cultures, church fathers, the Synod of Mâçon, the Council of Trent, modern church leaders, statistics, and other non-Bible proofs.
NTCC has a section on tithe (with their support verses) in their doctrinal statement; this is all the support NTCC should need, since it is their only and complete teaching on tithe, and restricts the discussion to only their proof texts.
Here is a link to an article (with comments) on Deborah’s Blog that refutes NTCC’s proof texts somewhat briefly (though effectively): http://newtestamentchristianchurchdebswtnss.blogspot.com/2010/05/doctrine-from-god-or-commandment-from.html
Maybe you can step over there and present your cogent argument.
Jeff and friends have also addressed this issue on Jeff’s Blog.
Gregory
RB,
The article also contains the following excerpt, "While the New Testament contains no explicit command to tithe..."
Gregory
Michael Beals problems are a direct reult of OVER 20 years of playing the part of a hypocrite. His mind is a mix because of his own teaching.. I've been here for 20 years and I don't do these things.. Are you really going to try to take the stance that a person has no responsibility in who they become? ANd that its teh group they belong to that is the culprite? If so explain Major what's his name? Is the Army responsible? How about Jeffry Dahmer is the US responsible as a whole because he was an American. Jeff your too smart to defend the indifensible. He is who he chooses to be.
So Jeff using your logic... God himself is pretty bad at picking people to lead because oh,
Adam Failed
Abraham Failed
Jacob Failed
Moses Failed
Balaam Failed
Judah Failed
Jerimiah Failed
Jonah Failed
Peter Failed
Judas Failed
Demas Failed
Get my point? These men were hand picked.. some by God the Father
Some by Jesus Himself
And some by the Apostles
Your logic means God is responsible for their failures. Jesus was the cause of Judas greed because after all he had spent years teaching him...
There may be creeps in our organization...
What of the creeps that swarm around your website?
What do you say about a man that contacts all of your facebook friends from your high school days? that's what Mouthy Micheal Beal did to me... isn't that WIERD? What in the world would they have to do with my Christianity? I wasn't even saved until I was in the Army 3 years after graudation......
What about a man that taunts someone... no Dares someone from NTCC to stand up and answer question.. whcih when they do he writes the man's leader email after email "informing" that leader of the so called renegades activities...... That's creepy
What about W.W. in her so called "testimony" which apparently is not to be questioned getting to the part where says says something along the lines of "Some other FAT lady came up" WHY the derogatory statment?
That "Lady" was not a preacher so she is not the "enemy" if anything she is the "cultist" that should be pitted and prayed for.. not called out in hateful ways...
Show us the superiority of your Godliness if you want to "win-some" cuz all your doing now is simply helping us out by getting people like these crazies above to go their seperate ways.
Don said
I think if you went to the army with what you have, they would think that you are a nut-job. If we however, went to the army with what we have on the ntcc, they would probably shut you down and make your servicemen's homes off limits for good.
Don... when I pastored a servicemen's home in Germany there was a Lt. Col who was a chaplain that would preach at our church from time to time. He had me preach for him. And when he had troubled guys that were being given their last chance he would bring them to us. they were not required to stay in the home but they were required to come and spend time in our environment.
There are many in our ranks that are NCO and Senior NCO as well as in the Officer corp,..... these folks would rise up in droves in our support. Their words would always speak louder because their lives speak louder.. you sir were kicked out of the Army weren't you?
What was the fore?
And Jeff NO YOU ARE NOT A SINNER FOR WATCHING THE GAME!!!!!!
(Psst Johnson.. write Rev. Kekel and tell him I said that... you might get me in trouble... you are such a fine example of leadership your soldiers are lucky to have you.. ;)
Wow RB, you have a point. Maybe it's not the cult teachings but the individual cult member that is responsible for his own actions. I guess that the ntcc pastors have no obligation whatsoever to live what they preach according to your logic.
If we used your logic to defend the sexual deviants in the catholic church, there would never be an end to the child molestation and abuse. Guess what? People began to see a pattern and did something about it. There is a pattern of abuse in the ntcc. RWD and kekel are prime examples of what's wrong with the ntcc. Not only have they surrounded themselves with like minded people and made them ministers, they have condoned and encouraged adultry, child molestation and many other abusive behaviors.
They can forgive and forget adultery and child molestation when it's one of them but they run people off for flipping through the pages of their bibles to verify what the ntcc preacher is screaming about? Are you kidding me?
Don and Ange
Jeff said
Mike Beal does not represent me or this blog nor will he, and knowing what I know about the NTCC, I would no longer ever represent the NTCC and if you are a man of God, you shouldn't either Pastor Briggs
I SAY
Jeff I have no idea what allyou know so I can't make my decissions based on what you know. I can only go by what I know and what I know gives me no reason to break fellowship. Sorry! But I know you can respect that I can't live by what other people want me to do... right?
Greg yes I read it before I referred it to you.. I don't need to "prove" tithe as such. It was not a doctrine that NTCC invented. 80% of the Christian church teaches it - though only 2% according to the article observe it.
The point of it was the early church taught it...
In the 6th century they reconfirmed it.
Seems to me that if anyone did what the APOSTLE PAUL TAUGHT it owuld have been the people of the 1,2,3,4 centuries becuase they would have known him, or known someone that had known him. They all observed tithing and even set it down as a doctrinal requirement in the 6th century.
Didn't you even read it and THINK about it?
Greg yes I read it before I referred it to you.. I don't need to "prove" tithe as such. It was not a doctrine that NTCC invented. 80% of the Christian church teaches it - though only 2% according to the article observe it.
The point of it was the early church taught it...
In the 6th century they reconfirmed it.
Seems to me that if anyone did what the APOSTLE PAUL TAUGHT it owuld have been the people of the 1,2,3,4 centuries becuase they would have known him, or known someone that had known him. They all observed tithing and even set it down as a doctrinal requirement in the 6th century.
Didn't you even read it and THINK about it?
This is getting out of hand. What do you expect to accomplish in this forum RB? There are souls dying and going to hell and you are worried about what's going on in the X-er community. Isn't there some more cake to eat and kool-aid to drink. Surely there some young impressionable GI's that you can convince to pay their tithe and give in offerings.
Don and Ange
Don....
No, see with the logic you're using we would get rid of "orgnization" all together... becuase we have to Know somoeone will never be or do what they are not to be or do. And no one can garuntee that... so... close the doors.
But seems like the reasonable thing is when something comes to light like those you mention you disfellowship them... take their license... which is what was done in all three cases.
But question... you were involved in all three indcidents where you not? doesn't that make YOU the common denominator?
Where you the tool used to bring these men to destruction or vise versa?
But I know one thing for sure.. either you gave them some pretty good signals that you would "welcome" such advances or they were three of the dumbest dudes to ever put on shoes. To come at yuou with advances that were not wanted would be damaging... at least one of them was married so he would loose his wife (whcih he did) and his ministyr/job and his honor if you were straight and squeeled.
No, based on the things you've said... the pork chop mustache I mentioned way back when, and the evidence you presented I would say you were one of them all along and they sensed it.
I had knew a man in Bible School who married (likie you have) had a son, and all thed while was homosexual. the family was a ploy.... he was outed when his son was inappropriately touched and a school (public school) official found out and came after him.
Are you trying to hide something? Just wondering.
RB said...
Get my point? These men were hand picked.. some by God the Father
Jeff said...
Good point but God didn't claim that Judas was the only hope for mankind either. The NTCC leadership has made such a claim for years while completely failing mankind with guys like Beals and those three gay dudes (who people knew were gay) who were personally recommended by RWD.
The Bible also doesn't even suggest nor imply that many men on your list went to hell either. Peter wasn't ever considered a reprobate either but to some Beals is. God also didn't claim that once you spoke with other tongues, that was evidence that you possessed the power to live above sin and anyone who didn't speak with other tongues was virtually guaranteed to spiritually fail. And then when all was said and done, guys like Beals, Denis, Hanna, Taylor, Mayers, Duran all were considered failures by the NTCC leadership after they were in fact considered to possess the Holy Ghost by virtue of them speaking in tongues.
The point being that the NTCC litmus test has failed miserably. As far as Mike Beals goes: Yes he is responsible for his own actions and I don't dispute that however there is a body of evidence which proves that if someone is abused enough, (whether by rape, parental abuse and such) they can change psychologically which results in them acting in a way that they normally wouldn't. Children who were beaten and abused sexually often don't act or function right when all is said and done.
I know without doubt that the NTCC and the tactics employed by RWD and his pastors have psychologically messed up the heads of a lot of people resulting in them not functioning right. War has that effect on people and the NTCC wages psychological war which also has that effect on people and I know of too many to deny it. I knew Beals when he first got involved with the NTCC way back in the mid 80s. He may have some issues but you best believe that the NTCC had something to do with him getting messed up just like a rapist has something to do with a rape victim psychologically getting messed up.
I understand what you are saying but I also understand how RWD and the NTCC leadership operates. They place a lot of folks in positions who aren't qualified to be there and generally speaking, Graham is full of bunch of ministers who couldn't make it else where and these are the guys teaching the NTCC's Bible school.
There is truth to what we are both saying here and if the complete truth lies somewhere in the middle, and the NTCC is only half as messed up as I say it is, then the NTCC is really messed up. Hardly a spiritual and holy organization.
Jeff
RB said quoting WW:
"Some other FAT lady came up" WHY the derogatory statment? "
Don and Ange said,
Heavens to MERGATROID!!! Someone other than RWD calling a woman fat? I remember R'dub preaching at conference that he didn't want two fat women sitting in the same pew for fear that the oak supports would collapse. "Maybe the Lord will take all of his children to heaven, but he's going to need to take a couple of trips for some of you."
I hope that WW has learned her lesson. It's not that "its not over until the fat lady sings", it's that "you can't leave until the fat lady has you sign the Guest book"!
Don and Ange
Well Don, see it kind of works like this...
If you bring up a man's name you should expect he will want to step up and set the record straight... if you don't want to have him step up.. don't bring up his name... see how that works.....
Now, you might not understand that principle... after all you've had some pretty womanly experiences with men.. but it appears Jazzy J the SOUL prophet and Micheal the Molester understand it... so they taunt me. When someone defends us they automatically assume it's me and so they strat in but that's the problem with so many people in the world they know all things
I do so love the fact that when you guys ask for someone and they actually show up... you very quickly tell them to go... why is that?
RB said:
"No, see with the logic you're using we would get rid of "orgnization" all together..."
LARCH says ...............................AMEN!!
RB said...
There may be creeps in our organization...
What of the creeps that swarm around your website?
Jeff said...
True enough but I'm not charging them to go out and lead a church either. I'm not charging them to teach Sunday School to someone elses kids. I'm not charging them to run a "Serviceman's Home" which turns into a plot by the pastor to create sexual deviants.
I don't share the views of many on this blog and I'm sure that many don't share my views but it is (for the most part) a completely open blog where folks can express their views. Having said that I have drawn the line under certain circumstances. You and I, Pastor Briggs have our differences and we have sharply criticized each other at one time or another, but let it be known by all that through it all, you are as welcome here as anyone who has ever frequented this blog.
Folks, Pastor Briggs is welcome here and I "WELCOME" and respect his views. I may not agree with them all the time but I do welcome them and respect Pastor Briggs opinion. That is the problem with the NTCC and one of the things I hate about it the most. If you give your opinion in the NTCC, 99% of the time, the NTCC leadership considers you prideful and rebellious if your opinion is different from accepted church views established by RWD.
Jeff
Jeff... I labor under now dellusion. No Organization ais perfect. So I do not expect that and as such I do not get let down when my expectations of perfection are not met. Unfortunately others do not think this way...
Hey Larch you finally said something that is intelligent... thanks!
You see, you are now on record as stating what this all is really about. The people who frequent this site and others are really of the opinion that churches, organizations, and religions are the true problem. You hate Religion period. I respect that... I don';t agree but I respect it.
You've choosen NTCC your target in this greater war agains the Church universal... that's fine....
But like BP you have by-in-large all stopped believing in God period as a Entity that should be served. You regect any and all requirements of scripture. And you vilify anyone that does.
Thanks Larch....go get yourself a fly!
RB said...
I do so love the fact that when you guys ask for someone and they actually show up... you very quickly tell them to go... why is that?
Jeff said...
I'm not telling you to go and by the way: Do you blame a rape victim for being raped? I don't care if a women is butt naked. That doesn't justify someone raping her. If a bank door is left wide open, are you justified to walk in and take all the money? I don't think so. You take a young 18 year old GI and the freak pastor starts with cleaning feet, (because the Bible talks about it) and then the freak NTCC pastor, explains that "to the pure all things are pure" and the back massages start. Next thing you know the freak NTCC pastor has a young man in a very compromising position.
Don was and is the victim, who was victimized by some NTCC freaks and RWD should have had them put in jail but that would have cut off RWDs cash cow, the military. Don was the victim and now without the NTCC sick influences he is married to a good woman which is a very good indication of his true orientation. Pastor Briggs, you should be disgusted by the conduct that these NTCC pastors displayed and you certainly shouldn't place the blame on Don. He was the victim.
Jeff
Wow.. sorry for all the last typo's
One last thing (at least as far as I can tell right now)
Jeff since you brought up the opinion thing...
I hope you would agree that there is always a time and a place for questioning. Regardless of who it is
Teacher
SGM
Drill Sgt
Boss
Preacher
President
etc.
And while they are in the middle of their "address" of an AUDIENCE is not the time. WW should have been taught better then that.
Jeff, I missed your post about the "freak pastors" needing to go to jail...
Unfortunately Don was a consenting adult there was no "crime" that warrented jail. No court would have convicted.
But no one seems to want to answer how it was possible that three "gay" men who were in the closet singled out Don... there had to be a reason beacuse they all did it at different times and in different places... and He was always the common denominator....
One of those NTCC pastors was married and that didn't have any indication of his "orientation".
Don didn't say he was raped...
He said he was "introduced" to the "homosexual" lifestyle.... which tells me there was continued "experience".
The NTCC defender earlier said that Don even moved into a servicemen's home once becasue he said his "roommate" was gay and making "advances" towards him.
Gay's seem to follow him around like a dog in heat... I wonder why?
Oh, I was disgusted by the actions of these men but I was proud of my organization for taking away their pulpits, papers, and passport to do it again in our ranks.
So Jeff on the lighter side.. did your team win or lose?
RB said...
Jeff... I labor under no delusion. No Organization is perfect. So I do not expect that and as such I do not get let down when my expectations of perfection are not met. Unfortunately others do not think this way...
Jeff said...
I can understand that but I expect a church leader to come a lot closer to perfection than what these NTCC leaders produce. You'd be better off following the Pharisees. I didn't read about Jesus trying that one. You'd be better off being a flat out willful sinner than an outright money hungry hypocrite who practices nepotism. You are better off hot or cold and you know the scripture Pastor Briggs.
These people have placed impossible burdens on people that they aren't even coming close to fulfilling themselves. Christ couldn't stand those kind of people and he made no apologies for that fact. It's not just a matter of someone not meeting perfection. These guys are flat out hypocrites who are using church for no other reason than to make money. How many times have we gone over RWD's complete disdain for secular education and how much of a failure a NTCC parent was if their kid didn't attend Bible school. I heard him say it myself but then Grant comes along and the rules change. How many folks forsook their own families because they wouldn't attend Bible school but now that all changed and I'm supposed to believe that RWD was ever sincere? No way buddy. That is not just "imperfect". That is outright diabolical and sinister. The NTCC as an entire organization is crooked to the core. Just because you think your doing good doesn't mean your not a crook. The NTCC is a "FAMILY RUN" business that thrives on neptunium and it's obvious as the nose on your face.
Partiality to the MAX. The only thing I want to do with a church like that is to warn people to stay away from it which is exactly what this blog is set up for.
Jeff
RB said...
He said he was "introduced" to the "homosexual" lifestyle.... which tells me there was continued "experience".
Jeff said...
That doesn't justify the actions of a freak NTCC pastor. Now for the record, I'm as straight as the day is long. Like I said, Don was the victim and Don has also said that he wants nothing to do with that kind of lifestyle that he got tricked into engaging. He also called RWD and told on those pastors so he couldn't have been too much of a willing participate. Which ever the case, it was your fellow NTCC pastors who were supposed to epitomize holiness while teaching folks the right way. Not leading them astray. Sir, I just can't understand how you can place the blame on Don for this one. Is it an attempt on your part to justify the actions of your fellow pastors?
Now on that lighter note. I'm not a fan of either team. I'm a New Yorker and I was pulling for the Jets. I did however want to see Green Bay win just so Arron Rogers could get that monkey off his back. I was glad the game remained a contest and I was happy about the outcome. Yourself?
Jeff
RB said,
"Gay's seem to follow him around like a dog in heat... I wonder why?"
Don and Ange said,
Let's get it right Briggs. Gay NTCC Ministers which make up 21.5% of the sleazy organization you try to defend follow me around like a dog in heat. Another 50% according to the law of averages and in what I have seen in the ntcc is made up of adulterers and adulteresses, which is something you could probably expound upon.
You call me a willing participant in this atrocity. Did you know that there were other so called "willing participants" who's lives were ruined? I was not the common denominator. I was a lot more interested in women, which was forbidden to me by gay and straight ntcc ministers. You go ahead and talk about things that you have absolutely no knowledge of and continue to justify the actions of the cult that has brainwashed you. You obviously have issues of your own that are gnawing at you.
I just got off the phone with someone that I haven't talked to in 25 years that knows of an individual that was involved with the Servicemen's Home in Ft. Bragg who was emotionally and spiritually abused by Rudy and blew his brains out in front of his dad, because he was called a homosexual by Rudy of all people.
You can drag my name through the dirt all you want to. There are people out here and probably attending your church that will read these blogs and know that they are in a cult. They will leave because you are more interested in justifying the actions of your cult leaders and washing your hands from the deviant and diabolical actions of others than you are of trying to help the people in your own church that have real problems.
Don and Ange
RB said,
"Don was a consenting adult".
Don and Ange said,
I'm glad that you know about these things so intimately seeing that you were there. You are winning our argument for us. You speak about things that you have no clue about. You react to things along party lines the same way that a predator acts. There is no victim. By the way, if I was such a willing participant, why did I call the ntcc leadership to report this behavior? Are these the actions of somebody that wants it to continue? Why did I refuse the advances of Broadnax and turn him in to RWD? There are others that can verify everything that went on in the Home at Ft. Bragg.
You can blame me to deflect the sin of your precious cult if you want to, but it's still a cult. You can come on here any time, because when you do, as always, you prove our point. Please feel free to do so at any time.
Don and Ange
I never said I condoned what those men did... and neither did the organization... they took your side and got rid of the men...
but I do find it interesting that you kept "finding" these guys. And where in the wide world of wisdom did you get your "percentages" Please list the gay pastor's in our organization you said they are there you gave a precise percentage for them...... who took the poll?
You want people to simply believe you as being credible but you fail to acknowledge that you are only one side of the argument. And you deny ANYONE the right to accept that there is more to the story then you want to share.
You can't hang in a debate so you run to retorical tricks throwing strawman arguments up to try to get the heat off of you.....
What was the original point to all of this?
You want to challenge.. taunt me.. malign me.. ridicule me.. and then you cry FOUL when I expose you as the fruit fly in the ointment. You were just as willing to life this "Life style" as they were.. because I can tell you one flat fact.... Pastor or no pastor... Christian or not.. I would flat deck a man that tried to do that to me... and I truly believe Jeff and even Greg would do the same thing....
You however.... rolled over and took it like a man... well maybe not a man.. but you took it.. not once.. not twice... but three times... and after time you "called" on them... was there a lovers spat going on? Did they requite your love, spurn your affection for some other young man so in a lovers rage you "outed them"
Sounds possible to me.. because long before you posted about your experience I said you looked kinda fruity with your "Village People" mustache and I didn't know a thing about you then....
Now how did I spot your fruit from cyber space....?
Oh, and not to mention you wrote about other sexual advances by other people didn't you.. man.. you da man there Don... every one wants a little Don-Don. If you are to be believed sex follows you every where you go.. again proving my point that you must have been sending out some "open for business" signals
Now, if you chose to let this drop... say the word.. but rememeber that everyone that comes on here and says something good about us is not "Briggs" I sign my work.
TO JEFF
Neither team was mine.. I wanted the Green Bay Pampers to win though always have hated the Steelers. I am a Cowboys fan though the Cowboys I cared about went away with Danny White, Roger Staubach.
RB
It took a lot for Don to share those things he shared. I think he was a little too in shock to Deck these men. I was recently touched inappropriately in a public place by the owner of a restaurant whom my husband and I had known many years and were good friends with he said there was something on me and asked if he could wipe it off and made serious sexual advances.
I wasn't expected this from a restaurant manger and was in shock and Don wasn't expecting this from his Pastors! Assuming someone is gay because of the way they wear there mustache is so immature, did he not wear the much loved 1950's hair style?
I heard someone say a brother was gay once because he parted his hair on the wrong side,that is so stupid and childish. Its a free country people should be able to dress as they choose and fix there hair as they choose. If Don was wearing super tight pink spandex I could understand you finding fault but finding fault with the way he wore his facial hair is straining on a gnat.
Don was not asking for sexual advances from his Pastor just as I was not asking it from a trusted friend of my husbands in a public place. Just because he was tempted doesn't mean he had a a problem, Jesus was tempted it wasn't because he was the one with the problem. Jobs friends thought he had suffered all his torment because he had some hidden evil in him but they were wrong.
I applaud Don that he didn't give in. I feel so sorry for all the single brethren in the church they can only Marry within the church with strict courting rules and the picking is slim. I have heard the single brethren referred to as wolves its the org that makes them that way they are desperate. They can't even look at a women without being blasted.
I said hi to a brother once before I was married and he looked at me like I was a Jezebel trying to lure him away, I was shocked all he had to do was say hi back I had no hidden motives. Look at it maybe the environment is encouraged? Do servicemens workers have time to think about being romantic or spend alone times with there wives and learn to treasure there relationships?
My relationship changed with my husband tremendously when we were out of the machine. Just think about it these poor men can have absolutely nothing at all to do with women men is what they get 24/7. The church services are even separated men on one side women on the other.
a peaceful ♥
Peaceful.. One resturant owner making a pass is terrible....
One pastor making an advance is incouragable and terrible.....
BUT THREE? WHat are the odds of that happening three times to the same person?
Each time Don Called on them.. but think of the statistical improbablity of it just randomly happening...
See, to many here want to believe so much that everything bad that happens or that is expressed is true 100% the way it's being shared when in reality it's not always the case...
In this particular situation I am certain it is not the case. These things with the three men happened to Don.. I don't doubt that.. but his unwilling participation I do not believe.
When a man touches a woman it's one thing.. when a man touches a man thats another.. but he is not just talkign about "touching" he is talking about much more then that as you know.
Don't you think when the man's zipper was being undone Don could have snapped out of it and put an end to it? He was in the Army for goodness sake... he was not a mere alter boy. He was a man....
And if he couldn't move away the first time... when he got to a new place and saw the same thing happen again he could have but didn't stop it....
and the beat goes on....
and the beat goes on.....
Making an observation by a picture is childish.. but it is uncanny however childish it may be.. that I was right and I didn't even know it...
Oh, and for the record I know who you are talking about with the "Parting of the hair" issue and he is as stupid as the day is long for such idiotic doctrine....
I am on record as saying it...
Good night.
RB said...
So Jeff using your logic... God himself is pretty bad at picking people to lead because oh,
Adam Failed
Abraham Failed
Jacob Failed
Moses Failed
Balaam Failed
Judah Failed
Jerimiah Failed
Jonah Failed
Peter Failed
Judas Failed
Demas Failed
Get my point? These men were hand picked.. some by God the Father
Some by Jesus Himself
And some by the Apostles
Your logic means God is responsible for their failures. Jesus was the cause of Judas greed because after all he had spent years teaching him...
*This is over much time and many dispensations, you have a great point you presented to Jeff but Don had all these bead experiences with Pastors spanding in a short time
Here we go Briggs, you keep on proving my point. For 11 years after Rudy and Hummel were long gone, I was living in Servicemen's homes and paying tithe and forgiven and desiring/being denied a wife and rejecting advances from your perverted cohorts. RWD would visit the Churches and ask me to take him around in my car instead of asking the pastor of the church. He once told me that he had never seen the devil fight anyone as hard as he was fighting me. Now that I am not paying my tithe to the ntcc, you come along with your accusations of something you are clueless about?
Get over yourself Briggs. It has been shared many times by your respected leaders, "It's always the people that are so adamantly against homosexuality that are guilty of it and have the tendencies." You evidently have major issues with this subject and taking a close look at your own words, you sound like an expert on gay behavior. I've never heard anyone so infatuated with other dudes facial hair. How did you spot my fruit from cyberspace? Are you a fruit expert? Your gay statements make you sound as gay as anyone I've ever heard. And then you go on to point out how you would react if put in the same situation. Who are you trying to convince? Nobody has ever accused you, or should they have? Is there a reason for your fear?
I am not dropping this subject as long as people like you want to use it to justify the faults of the cult that they belong to. Sex doesn't follow me everywhere just sexually perverted ministers from the ntcc. I never experienced this problem before I joined this perverted cult. 21.5% of the ntcc pastor's that I had were homosexuals and that's only the ones that got caught. I'm sure that there are many others that are in the closet, perhaps you might have the inside scoop on this being that you are so well informed on the gay community inside the ntcc.
Keep talking Briggs, because every time you open your mouth you prove that the ntcc is an abusive cult. We encourage you and all others to participate in these blogs and we will not be surprised if you yourself become an X-er in the not too distant future. We will not kick you to the curb like the ntcc will, however.
Don and Ange
Thanks for you response Rev Briggs I just want you to know I think its awesome that you are brave enough to think out of the box. I saw your church website and thought it was awesome. I hope you are able to find peace in the decisions you make.
Some of the things Don shared shocked me a lot and one I did not want to believe and wish I never would have read,it actually grieved me all day because it was about someone who was so special to me even though we do not talk anymore.
I see the men of God I used to follow as controlling and confused in many ways but I will never see them as twisted perverts at least I hope I never will. I love Pastor Davis to this day and always will but I just knew it was time for me to move on. You can love someone and not do as they say (not with Jesus of course).
I want to let you know you were one of my favorite teachers,your class really spoke to me, when you taught the class you were broken in many ways but God used it to speak to me.
Someone asked me recently why I left the church I didn't want to get into all the pain and heartache so I just shared one of the reasons and I told them like the pilgrims who came to America for religious freedom that is why I decided to leave so I could serve God according to the dictates of my own conscience.
Good night
A peaceful♥
Peaceful said,
"I was recently touched inappropriately in a public place by the owner of a restaurant whom my husband and I had known many years and were good friends with he said there was something on me and asked if he could wipe it off and made serious sexual advances."
RB replied:
"When a man touches a woman it's one thing.. when a man touches a man thats another.."
Don and Ange said:
This is the philosophy of the ntcc cult leaders in a nutshell. There are degrees of sin and they get to decide what's right and what's wrong. When a woman is sexually abused or assaulted, it's ok. They don't want to hear about it and they brush it under the table. Briggs must have a history himself of abuse to be so argumentative.
There is very little acknowledgement of abuse toward victims in the ntcc. The predator's of sexual scandals usually survive in the ntcc while the victims are just that, victims. In the case of Rudy, Hummel and Broadnax, they were forced out with no chance of repentance mind you, because the ntcc did not want to look like it was rearing up homosexual ministers. Too late for that.
I also applaud you and others that have come on these blogs to share their stories. People like RB will try to marginalize you and your testimony because it makes him feel he is in a legitimate position in a legitimate organization. That's how these people operate.
Don and Ange
Sister Peaceful.. your words are kind.. thank you!
Don... you're so flawed in logic it's not funny... but hey, on the positive side you come off sounding a whole lot smarter then Jazzy Johnson... he really truly comes up with some duzy's in a very bad way....
I can agree with Pastor.. .never saw the Devil fight someone so hard... but then again... I believe I am on track.
See, where most people fail is they lie to themselves... they telll the lie so often to their conscience that they belive it to be fact. Before you can ever reach your potential you have to be brutally honest with yourself.
You can't deny I was right.. all you can say is I'm obsessed.....
really? me? wow.. look at the hour after hour, day after day, week after weekm, hear after year, of the continual tap tap tapping of the keyboards of Exer's like you.. over and over. and over saying the same things.. hating the same people... making the same points... ad nausium.... now that is obsession.....
and as he fades off in the distance the voice of Don-Don the preacher's Bon Bon sings
Obsession.. your my obsession... what will it cost from me to make you sleep with me... your my obsession.......
Don... give Mike and his friend in OK a call... they just might take you up!
BTW how can I prove your point of "abusive, normal, average NTCC preacher" and be a "Renegade" all at the same time....
H>>>E>>>>>L>>>>L>>>>O Could we make up our minds please?
Hey Briggs, not sure what you are trying to get me to confess to. Unlike Jesus, you can't let it go.
I'm so glad that I don't have to answer to you in matters of my relationship with God.
I've repented for my part in the ntcc homosexual scam and coverup of Church clergy infidelity. If you read my story, it pretty much covers all this. But you can't seem to get over it. If RWD forgave me back then for being victimized by your Homosexual fellow pastors and God has forgiven me, what point are you so desperately trying to make? Are you saying that I instigated or asked for or enjoyed what I went through? You were not there and you can speculate and say what you will but I know and God knows what I went through.
You find it such an odd coincidence that 3 of your homosexual brethren all made sexual advances toward me, well I find it rather odd too. My wife says I was pretty good looking back then but that was 20 years ago when we were denied marriage. Do you think that these three pastors are the only predators and that I was the only victim? If you do, that is very naive.
A statistician will tell you that the mathematical odds of these being isolated incidents are about the same as lightning hitting a polar bear in Puerto Rico.
Don and Ange
RB said...
I never said I condoned what those men did... and neither did the organization... they took your side and got rid of the men...
Jeff said...
Got rid of the men? So that was the right move? So those men could go out and do the same thing at another church somewhere else? The NTCC leadership simply got rid of a problem. Someone should have called the proper authorities which RWD is not. If the military would have known about it, they might have had every servicesmans home in the world placed off limits or shut down altogether. RWD didn't want that because it would have stopped his cash flow so he simply got rid of a problem. One that was understood to exist many times previously. Plenty of people knew about Broadnax before hand according to everything that I've read and heard. He brought in money so RWD kept him around as long as he could.
Jeff
I'm reading some pretty good points here. The NTCC is corrupt, plain and simple.
Jeff
To Don
My point is simple.... you, johnson and Beal started a "Briggs Fest" I came out to defend myself.
Jeff... you are way to smart to try to use such a flawed and simplistic point... THIS IS THE USA... with our all freedoms both Moral and Immoral. There is no law against being Gay. In the military could not have done anything unless the man was raped and he clearly was not raped. But again.. I point out to the reader since none of you will address it... What is the statistic probability of someone running into 3 different men over various different times, ingaging with the same person in a dispicable act like this? It's just not POSSIBLE it could be random... period.
And Don "the duck" pointed out that he was "forgiven" by pastor Davis and God... is that a Freudian slip or what... What did he have to be "forigivne for" he was a victim right... no one needs to be forgiven for being a victim.. they need to be pitied and prayed for... but he runs to "I was forigiven"
In the Army they can strip someone of rank and boot them out (they do this a lot)
They can also put them in jail (they have their own)
A Religious Organization can only take away someone licensing and put them out. They can publish their story but hey, when they do that folks say they are mean spirited and unchrist like for revealing someones faults.
They can turn them into authorities when laws are broken but none had been. If a "Complaint" is to be filed on someone it must come from the victim in a case like this its one of impropriety and immorality NOT illegality... and all the wishing for it to be illegal will not make it so.
No Don, what I find interesting is that after 3 attacks on your personage in unwanted sexual advances that you claim was organizaionally understood and accepted.
YOU STAYED IN THE ORGANIZATION FOR QUITE A LONG TIME AFTERWARDS!
YOU BY YOUR OWN ACTIONS SHOW YOU DID NOT HOLD THE ORGANIZATION LEADERSHIP RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR EXPERIENCE.
Actions speak louder then words.
Peaceful heart... I posted this on Greg's site but don't know if it will get through so I wanted to post it here too
The Bible does say Jezebel painted her face
2Ki 9:30 And when Jehu was come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she painted her face, and tired her head, and looked out at a window.
Please conact me privately if you want
pastor@ntccpasadenatx.org
"Thanks for you response Rev Briggs I just want you to know I think its awesome that you are brave enough to think out of the box."
Not that my opinion matters that much, but I think this is the majority thought in NTCC.(thinking outside of the box) Including leadership.
Pastor Briggs I just had to break my silence on giving, because I dont want people to miss out or misinterpret.
If anyone has worked behind the scenes of a church to see how much it costs to operate, they would not have a problem with giving.
To even rent a building costs more than some peoples mortgages! It really bothers me when people say not to pay tithe and yet give no other alternative. In certain other organizations I have seen Pastors live in DEPLORABLE conditions because their church members would not give a dime. I went over a Pastor's house one time and he was trying to hide the food he had picked up from the soup kitchen. He finally had to preach a message I believe was called " The Lights Are Going to Get Shut Off" to snap them out of their slumber.This was not NTCC by the way, but was a mainline organization.
Church members demand a full-time pastor, yet want to feed him scraps from the table.
Malachi 3:10 may be Old Testament, but it is definitely a good starting point.Acts 11:29 is also a good scripture on giving.
I believe NTCC is not perfect however the heart for God's refining fire is there.
I have had not very nice things said about me in a public arena, which is unfortunate. I don't let it hold me back from serving Him or cloud my vision or purpose.
Don,i am at loss for words at what to say about you situation. All my Pastor's were very protective about any "wolves" that would try to sniff around the sisters.
okay back into silence,
ns
RB said, "Your logic is as flawed as your wife's choice in a husband."
This comment by robert briggs, ntcc preacher / 'pastor' of the Pasadena ntcc was directed at MLJ, a Sargent First Class in the U.S. Army.
Brother Johnson and his wife Young-Mi suffered a terrible loss when his wife had a miscarriage due to abuse from an ntcc preacher / 'pastor' named Eric Hanna. Hanna pressured Young-Mi and the other women in the congregation to go 'soul-winning', accusing those who wanted to rest of being lazy. Due to this pressure Young-Mi was out walking for extended periods of time and as a direct result her son Joshua miscarried and the Johnson's lost the their precious baby.
The Johnson's have endured the abuse of the ntcc.
The Johnson's have endured the tragedy of loosing their son [who is now waiting in heaven for them].
We say that Young-Mi made a fine choice of a husband; because this couple has managed to overcome these tragic events caused by abusive ntcc preachers like robert briggs; who failed in his marriage to Amy and is now remarried to a 'new' ntcc bride...
Perhaps your own logic is flawed and bears some scrutiny, robert.
Are you really a 'pastor' briggs?
Do you shut off the 'pastor' etiquette when you blog?
Are you the same in the pulpit as on these blogs?
If you are the same, we would never want to sit under such an abusive ntcc preacher.
If you are different, you are a hypocrite who acts one way here, and another way when "hiding behind the cross" as so many ntcc hypocrites do.
Which way is it robert?
Remember, repentance is only a prayer away. You can do it it you try.
Don and Ange
RB 'pastor' briggs from ntcc Pasadena, TX said, and we quote: "Here Beal read this and then shut up about Tithe.. We didn't invent the concept.. the early church supported the idea.. and we still believe it."
This is very abusive language for a so-called 'pastor' to use. If 'pastor' briggs is this insecure about the tithe doctrine that he lashes out like this, how does he behave in his pulpit?
"The early church supported the idea" of selling indulgences too. This was a damnable heresy which early church fathers taught, claiming one could buy a relative out of hell by paying money to the church. ntcc did not invent that doctrine either; but they certainly mimic it by saying they are "paid up, prayed up, and ready to go up" meaning they are somehow more acceptable to God because they have paid their tithes and offerings, have prayed, and are therefore ready to go to heaven by virtue of completing these WORKS.
Works doctrines are just as damnable as the indulgences heresies and must be eXposed for what they really are.
God said
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10v9
Stop making salvation harder than it is. Stop making it a work that you do.
Start lifting up Jesus. He paid the price. IT IS FINISHED.
You might enjoy life more and might not feel threatened when someone asks you a simple question or has a different idea than what you were taught at your cult's indoctrination training center, The New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. Seminary / Bible School in Graham, WA with DEEP ROOTS in St. Louis, MO.
Jesus did the work. It's not up to me to pay tithe to work my way into heaven.
And why doesn't ntcc show financial disclosure? What is ntcc hiding?
Don and Ange
Go to my site.. listen to my sermons they are open for all to hear.. and then see.
You fail to understand that I have an absolute right both legally, morally, ethically and psiritual to defend myself and point out the glaringly obvious
When you are pointing fingers at me you have some pretty big fingers pointing back in your own direction.
Johnson E7 in the Army made a comment about a year ago implying he would come up behind me and silicence me. He attacked my children and he continues to try to coax me into this arena... then when the heat is on he runs or trys to shut me up....
Real leaderly... real Army quality... Real example of what he is trying to say everyone else should be...
And you start trying to equate what some sinners did to you as current trend and accepted policy to lie to people and make them think this is how it is..
Hanna is gone.....
How can two walk together unless they agree? They can't and in time "They went out from us because they were not of us.. and it went out that it might be made MANIFEST that they were not of us....
You might remember that from the Bible.
Keep in mind the church the Apostles were running started having troubles in the 1st century just years after their start as people were complaining about hte "Care for the widows"
They had people bringing in all of their money which was wrong.
Then the pressure got so strong one couple lied to get the strain off of their shoulders.....
But even though the early church was wrong in this "attempt" at funding... the liars still were judged for their personal wrongs.
In Rev. Jesus warned seral "church" congregations of their own on coming judgment unless they repented....
No one is exempt BUT GOD IS TO BE THE JUDGE, JURY and Exicutioner...
You try to behead people int eh court of public opinion. And you all go to far greater extents and have done so far far longer times then anyone in our camp... period....
But you know what people you've effective are coming back... got a call last week from one.....
Had one come to my church and have lunch with me.....
and others that I have heard of in other places...
Go figure.. in all your desire to destroy you have actually helped to build...
Great is God and greatly to be praised......
I can agree with Pastor.. .never saw the Devil fight someone so hard... but then again... I believe I am on track
RB said this and he also thinks we are obsessed. Because we will not fade away into the wood works. Like sooo many folks have done in the past. They left ntcc ashamed. thinking they had done something wrong. In reality all they did was listen to God and get out of a controlling cult atmosphere! Like so many of us are doing these days. BUT what we got now is a venue to share our True stories. Yes,sometimes over and over. What does ntcc do,they continue to preach the same false teachings as if there biblical truths. Twisting the scripture to make it go there way. Misleading many folks,leading them to hell,not Heaven! there living a lie under there False policies which USED to be SINS! That is why so many of us blog about ntcc. And will share it with any media outlet. To get that exposure. In hopes we can save some poor lost soul from ever walking into a ntcc building. To get wrapped up in there fake love! Oh we love you,but you stop paying your tithe,miss a service and gasp,stop coming to our services. We still drop you like a hot piece of coal. That is some kind of love!
If that is obsession. I guess I am obsessed. I will be here to toss out a floation device to save anyone from ntcc's grasps. in hopes another young Marine like I was. Does not get invited out and innocentyly accept there invitation to dinner,come into our HOME! We all know the evil that is behind the curtains. All these changes,compromises are just to lure folks back into there grasps. If it wasn't then why change now and not five years ago???? God isn't talking to Mike K. His wallet is!
April
Anonymous said, " As a matter of fact the superbowl could have actually brought us all closer together if we could have watched it together!!!"
Don and Ange say,
Name the place and time for Superbowl XLVI; and we'll see you there. We'll bring the Lime Tostitios if you make some guacamole dip! ;-)
Don and Ange
double-D said, "It was a great game. Great to watch in HD at home- and not in a store like many at NTCC do, or no doubt did."
Don and Ange say: LOL! That is so funny because it is SO TRUE!!!
Gregory said, "The article also contains the following excerpt, "While the New Testament contains no explicit command to tithe...""
Good catch!
RB you are completely right I should have given all those things a thorough restudy before I went typing my mind. I did misrepresent that scripture. Thank you for correcting me. I tried to edit it out of my spiel but I don't know how.
I missed a step in explaining that scripture I looked up the word painted in the Blue letter Bible and it came up with the Hebrew word שׂוּם (Transliteration
suwm) And these are the definitions for the word that I saw from Strong's concordance
1) to put, place, set, appoint, make
a) (Qal)
1) to put, set, lay, put or lay upon, lay (violent) hands on
2) to set, direct, direct toward
a) to extend (compassion) (fig)
3) to set, ordain, establish, found, appoint, constitute, make, determine, fix
4) to set, station, put, set in place, plant, fix
5) to make, make for, transform into, constitute, fashion, work, bring to pass, appoint, give
b) (Hiphil) to set or make for a sign
c) (Hophal) to be set
Here to me the definitions of the Hebrew word don't seem to represent her putting on her cover girl. I heard while in the org. she was 1) preparing for burial or 2)wanting to seduce.
Another point I want to make is in my heart I don't feel condemned by this scripture. Just because Jezebel painted her face doesn't mean I have the same spirit in doing so as she had. A women can modestly put on makeup without looking indecent.
I wanted to stop using this scripture to condemn my other Christian sisters to hell. I wanted to stop thinking I was the only one truly right with God. I believe thinking a women is going to hell because she wears makeup using this one scripture is straining on a gnat.
Jezebel painted her face I might paint my face but I am not a Jezebel unless I have the spirit of a Jezebel. Its not what we wear or don't wear that makes us holy its whats on the inside that counts. I think modesty is important but as far as all these other things they are superficial.
I used to depend so much on my outward holiness and be so critical of others. They would tell me they were a Christian and in my heart I would be like why don't you look like me then or why are you not obedient to you Bible and grow your hair and so forth. After time I saw who I was and asked for God to change my heart.
I remember how for members to wear a dress and stop cutting there hair was of utmost importance because then they were really in. I always looked at holiness as the fruit of receiving the Holy Spirit. Well for years according to those standards no one in our church was even truly serving God.
(Page 1)
A peaceful♥
I kept waiting for them to grow in his grace and knowledge and it never seemed to happen and I didn't want to force feed it down their throats and neither did my Husband. I remember how lonely I felt and how a sister came up to give me a hug and I thought to myself this doesn't comfort me she is not a Christian (like me). That time right there was a pivotal moment in my life and I really stepped back and looked at myself and I didn't like what I saw.
I prayed for God to change my heart and began to look at things differently and soon I was truly able to fellowship with them and receive comfort from loneliness because I wasn't putting myself on a higher plane than them anymore.
The change was glorious and brought a huge freedom in my heart and life and God began to mold and shape me it was almost as if there was a transformation in me. As I began to stop condemning others for these things after a long period of time I began to stop condemning myself for them.
It took a process of about 3 years for me to really break away from this old way of thinking but when I did break away from it I felt I was able to relate to people better and love them more as Christ does.
Sir if I was to know beyond a shadow of a doubt all these outward things would send me to hell I wouldn't trade my walk with God for anything in this world esp. not a stupid makeup compact a pair or pants or a a hair style. But you see they wont send me to hell because I am saved by the blood of Christ not by these other things.
I believe for a very long time I was Pharisaical and like a whited tomb with dead mens bones on the inside. I wish every Christian could experience this peace and freedom the Lord has given me. I still feel like a fish out of water having had been in the church for so many years and having had ties cut off but God will continue to lead me.
a peaceful♥
"The article also contains the following excerpt, While the New Testament contains NO explicit command to tithe..."
Yes this was a good catch.
We all believe in voluntary giving as, "...he purposeth in his heart," But when you choose to go OUTSIDE of the Bible scriptures & use stuff like, "The 6th century council meetings" then at that point you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say and the foundation is lost.
RB said, "Micheal the Molester", ...
Why RB! 'Pastor' robert briggs of the Pasadena, TX new testament christian churches of America, inc. with roots in Graham, Wa. and St. Louis, Missouris...
When you (rb) say, "Michael the Molester" Are you speaking of your illustrious leader michael c., kekel, kekel, the child molestor Why not step up to the plate and defend that action? Or is it indefensible? Do you claim that you do not know about kekel's child molesting ways? Does your wife know about this? Well now you do know. Will you leave ntcc? Would you leave your daughters unattended in the presence of such a man as kekel who defiantly said he would not stop his deviant behavior? What if he decides to share with your daughters the scripture, "To the pure, all things are pure..."???
Will you continue to follow this child molester micheal c. kekel?
By the way, it is noteworthy that kekel vehemently refused to repent for his child molesting ways...
*Do you really want to associate yourself with an impenitent child molestor who thinks it's okay to make out with and grope a 13-15 year old girl when he is 24-26 years old?
*Do you really want to be a partaker in that man's sins?
After all, we as individuals are responsible for our actions; not the group we are involved in, right?
*Do the people in your congregation know this true story about your illustrious 'leader' molesting a 13-15 year old girl while he was 24-26 years old?
*Do you think the people in your congregation would look at you differently as a father, a man, a 'pastor' when they find out that you knew about this molestation and lack of repentance but YOU STILL CHOSE TO FOLLOW THAT MAN AS IF NOTHING IS WRONG WITH WHAT HE DID; CONDONING HIS SIN?
*Plain common sense, especially as a father of young girls yourself, should tell you to seek spiritual guidance elsewhere! Which is what your congregation should do....
Something to think about robert / daddy...
Don and Ange
RB said "What about W.W. in her so called "testimony" which apparently is not to be questioned getting to the part where says says something along the lines of "Some other FAT lady came up" WHY the derogatory statment?"
That is not derogatory, it is descriptive. And for the record, there is a huge problem with obesity amongst the woment of NTCC, because they are put down constantly and are not allowed to go out of the house.
T
RB said, "If you bring up a man's name you should expect he will want to step up and set the record straight..."
Don and Ange say,
Using RB's logic we were quite surprised when michael c. kekel did not "step up and set the record straight" when X-ers dared to "bring up [kekel's] name"...
hmmn...
Again, using 'pastor' "RB" robert briggs logic, does that mean kekel is not a man? (Since he did not "step up and set the record straight"....)
Or does it mean that RB, the ntcc 'pastor' of the new testament christian churches of America, inc. in Pasadena, TX has "flawed logic"?
We breathlessly await RB's exciting defense [justification / excuse / apology] of his offensive illustrious spiritual leader, kekel, kekel, the child molester.
Stay tuned; but don't hold your breath.
Don and Ange
ns said...
Church members demand a full-time pastor, yet want to feed him scraps from the table.
Jeff said...
I understand your point ns but I don't demand a full time pastor. I also don't support building more buildings that require yet more support from church members while the whole time the church members are barley keep a-float and the pastor is getting filthy rotten rich. The Bible nowhere suggests such a practice. Not even close. Paul didn't advocate that at all and he said it. He refused any support from the Corinthian church. Priscilla and Aquila had church in their house. Hardly a situation where a bunch of church members had to support some pastors lavish lifestyle. That is not Bible. The Bible says that some which have coveted after money have erred from the faith. RWD said openly that he prayed to God that he become a "Millionaire". I heard him with my own ears. Sound to me like someone who covets after money.
You can have church without having a bunch of unnecessary bills created by a pastor who places the entire burden on his congregation because all he is interested in is expansion at all costs. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that is mine.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
We all believe in voluntary giving as, "...he purposeth in his heart," But when you choose to go OUTSIDE of the Bible scriptures & use stuff like, "The 6th century council meetings" then at that point you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say and the foundation is lost.
Jeff said...
Extraordinarily good point.
Jeff
T said...
That is not derogatory, it is descriptive. And for the record, there is a huge problem with obesity amongst the women of NTCC, because they are put down constantly and are not allowed to go out of the house.
Jeff said...
Another good point other than the fact that some NTCC women like Pastor Hunts wife have said forget that. She simply goes to the Ft. Benning public gym in tights so she can exercise and not become fat like the women that W.W. described. These women modern day NTCC women say it's ok to wear pants and more specifically tight nylon pants to exercise as long as you wear a dress all the rest of the time.
Didn't you all read the scripture? 1 NTCC 22:1 Thou shalt not allow a woman to wear that which pertaineth to a man unlest thou goest to a public gym.
You all are some dummies because you didn't read your NTCC Bible.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said, " As a matter of fact the superbowl could have actually brought us all closer together if we could have watched it together!!!"
Jeff said...
The NTCC leadership has never showed any interest in that. All they were ever interested in is whether or not you were attending the next service and whether or not you paid your tithe. That is pretty indicative of what the NTCC is really all about. They want your time and money and if you disagree with them they want you gone but don't forget your last tithe check and don't forget that last pledge payment being that you are leaving.
Oberhauser asked SFC Watts for his pledge money after SFC Watts told Oberhauser that he was leaving the NTCC. At that point, that was all Oberhauser cared about; Watts' money.
Lets analyst this. The NTCC leadership will say they were concerned about Watts soul, hence Oberhauser's concern with Watts fulfilling his pledge. But here is the irony. The vast majority of NTCC pastors with very few exceptions believe that if someone leaves the NTCC that is equivalent to leaving God; true? TRUE!! So if Watts was leaving God anyway and no doubt on his way to hell, (according to every NTCC pastor that I've ever known) then what difference did it make whether he fulfilled his pledge or not? He is going to hell no matter ho you look at it because leaving the NTCC is the same as leaving God right?
The NTCC pastor thinks he is covering his own back so he doesn't have to hear God ask, "Why did you let that brother sin without asking him for his money? Pastor you are just as guilty as he is".
What a joke. The NTCC has it's pastors and members so brainwashed that all of them think that salvation is no more than crossing a bunch of t's and dotting a bunch of i's. They think that salvation is a bunch of do's and don'ts. You guys are all going to hell if your salvation hinges upon whether or not SFC Watts is told to pay his pledge or not after he has formally left the NTCC for good. You guys don't stand a chance of making it to heaven if that is what your salvation is all about.
Jeff.
Peaceful Heart... I agree 100% with you in all that you just posted.
Holiness is inside FIRST but there are some outward indicators of the inner changes... the problem is outsiders can only use the "Outer" things as a gauge while we get the benefit of knowing our inner changes before God.
FAR TOO MANY in our ranks, and others, think Outward Holiness is the ends... when in fact it is only a means to an end.
But I will point out that on the average women stop wearing makeup naturally when they get older... why? Holiness reasons? No.. they no longer see themselves in the same way, as the same marketable person.. and so think less and less about dressing up the package. But these rationalizations are just as vain as the thought that becasue a woman puts on makeup she is for that very reason going to hell. She's not... but the deeper issue is the problem the vanity, the "putting on" as the definition described... the heart that says I need help to look my best... Esther as you know is the person that comes to mind at this point...
Anyway... whoever you are (and I do have my ideas) I wish you the best... Do not believe every horror story estpecially the one I think you referred to earlier.... consider the source.
Don.. you're point about leaving my kids with a known molester.... no I never would... but I almost never leave my kids with anyone and the few who do are hand picked by the harshest, shrewdest judge of such people.... MY WIFE!
But... you fail to even acknowledge that SINCE I WAS NOT there I have to consider the sources. Way the words, but also motivations. Look at my own experience with the same people, and pray for guidance.
These things I have done.... and as such find you're people's evidence not founded upon a credible enough source to tip the scales of my mind..... I won't be controlled by their thinking and I will not be controlled by YOUR thinking I will make my own mind up. Capiche?
No... I have openly and privatly told all of my leaders and I do mean all of my leaders that I believe they should actively persue these issues in a public way.
They make up their own mind.. but I still stand.. I've not been ousted... I even wrote an article that has been read close to 800 times based on my site analitics and still I am not defrocked....
I defended people until those people asked me to stop defending them... I did.....
I never agreed, nor will I ever stop defending my self, my family, my church, or my friends. I will not draw first blood (sic) but I will be in the fight. And you have to admit they have been taunting me for awhile... you as well....
Thanks for the response RB this will probably be the last thing I write on here I just don't know if all this will be good for me. I believed it was a way to help me personally let go when in the end I feel it might make things harder for me. Its also seeing names of people I used to love dearly in such a raunchy light and don't want people to think I believe everything written in these posts and associate me with all the content. I really care what people in NTCC think of me even though I am not there anymore. I would like them not to think of me as a traitor. I really felt in my heart I tried to stay forth right and true until push came to shove.
Warmest regards
A peaceful ♥
I can't speak for everyone in our organization.. but there are plenty like me, many of whom are our leaders, that would say "God bless and Keep you! contact me if you want... I will not pry nor will I preach... I am adn can be a friend! Just ask NS she knows...
\
Thanks!
A peaceful heart said...
I really care what people in NTCC think of me even though I am not there anymore. I would like them not to think of me as a traitor.
Jeff said...
You know, I used to feel the same way until I realized that once you leave the NTCC you are considered an outsider by NTCC personnel and there is nothing which will change that. They talk about you and say things like, "You left God". "You love the world more than you love God". "They were never one of us because if they were, they would no doubt have remained with us". The NTCC has a history of ostracizing folks who leave their organization.
True peace comes from not worrying about what folks say or think about you because you believe in yourself. I could care less what the NTCC leadership or it's personnel think or say about me. They don't pay my bills nor do they provide for my family. They don't put a roof over my head. I could care less what they think about me and I have no problem saying what I think about them.
Don't ever concern yourself with what others think about you because then, you live your life for them and not for yourself and (listen to this) "NOT FOR GOD". You can't live for God is you are living for RWD. Living for God doesn't always mean taking the easy road on certain issues. Living for God means that you stand up for what is right and it doesn't matter what others think. Living for God means that you stand up to folks like RWD when they are wrong. I'm convinced that what I'm doing here is RIGHT. The NTCC needs to be exposed and their crooked deeds need to be made known. The NTCC has messed up many lives.
Jeff
But I will point out that on the average women stop wearing makeup naturally when they get older... why? Holiness reasons? No.. they no longer see themselves in the same way, as the same marketable person.. and so think less and less about dressing up the package. But these rationalizations are just as vain as the thought that becasue a woman puts on makeup she is for that very reason going to hell. She's not... but the deeper issue is the problem the vanity, the "putting on" as the definition described... the heart that says I need help to look my best... Esther as you know is the person that comes to mind at this point...
Briggs writes this ASSUMPTION. that he as a man knows why a woman wears makeup. He also ASSUMES that most women stop wearing makeup as they age. Because when women are younger. there only trying to pretty up the package. That is the ntcc jargon brainwashing coming out of his mouth! It has to be that reason right Briggs. If you only had a clue about what you consider as wordliness.
Since your stuck in the ntcc cult,community. You got no idea what life is like outside of ntcc. Here it is Briggs. Women DO not JUST wear makeup to pretty up the package. It is called pampering,do it because it is pretty,femine. To enhance what God has given us. AND women do wear makeup when they get older. Less is more is in style today. Women do not generally put it on caked on. like rw davis likes to smear makeup. It can help a woman's confidence.
I have watched men walk differently in a SUIT then in Jeans. As a woman can act differently with makeup then without makeup! ALL just for the outside.
Briggs is lost on this! And He has been told this before. So I see that he is still stuck in his sinkin brainwashed thinking!
April
T said, "for the record, there is a huge problem with obesity amongst the woment of NTCC,"
Was that pun intentional, a Freudian slip??? Either way or any way, it made us smile. ;-)
Has anyone ever noticed that Mr. Briggs (I refuse to call him a Pastor due to my personal belief that (1) He is not an accredited preacher)
Has never come to Mr. Kekel's defense with regards to Grant Kekel playing sports, aka football? Nor has he been able to successfully justify where Mr. Kekel finds the money to pay for Grank Kekel's $20,000.00 a year past school tution?
Mr. Briggs, tell me PLEASE? Where did that money come from? An escrow account? Just curious!
Mr. Briggs, your threatenings, slander and indirect blackmail do not deter me at all. Typical NTCC smoke and mirrors.
I don't think I have ever threatened you nor your family, nor would I want to. I strive to be like Mr. Olson, who would not ever hurt a fly. I hate terrorists.
Now that we both know where each other works, lets be perfectly clear. We both have jobs to do.
My job is to defend my country against all terrorists and threats inside and outside this wonderful country. I daily place my life on the line so that you, and your wonderful family can preach the way you want to preach, even if you do not have an offical preacher's license, even if your a cult, even if your preaching is wrong.
I have a right by defending my country to exercise my freedoms of well, one of which is freedom of expression. BTW I have the right to express myself. Ever heard of the Constitution? I know this is difficult to stomach as NTCC is modeled from a Socialist point of view.
Just think: When I am shooting at a terrorist, your brotherman preachers like Barnes are telling women to, and I quote "SHUT UP"!
I unlike your NTCC robot clones have the right to question WHY,WHY,WHY!!! If NTCC, or you for that manner, are NOT doing anything wrong, then why are you so bent out of shape? Why does this blog or my statements, rub you the wrong way?
The MANLY thing to do would be to agree that maybe, just MAYBE there is an arguement here that may be worth me to examine this from a third person point of view.
As far as me being a horrible NCO? I beg to differ. Today I will be awarded, lets see, a Meritorious Service Medal (MSM) which is the highest award a servicemember can get in peacetime outside of a Soldier's Medal. Do you have one of these? This is my second one.
In addition I will be awarded another Medal, an IMPACT Army Achievement Medal for being the best Platoon Sergeant for the cycle out of ALL Sergeants for the last three months. They just don't hand these things out!
I believe in things like hard work, and if the awards come, they come, but I do not work to get an award.
Have you ever Pastored a work overseas Mr. Briggs? Oh, I forgot, you have NOT. That is reserved for the best of the best of NTCC preachers! Keep on preaching the Truth in Holy Spirit Power! Maybe God, I mean, Mr. Kekel, will give you a chance!
Your opinion of me sure lacks some substance! As for me, I will take my medals, update my records, and continue to Soldier on, taking care of Soldiers.
Do you take care of Christians? To Bad NTCC does not hand out awards for being good Preachers! Oh that's right! I forgot! Your Retirement package is out of this world! As long as NTCC does not kick you to the curb before you retire, your good!
Brother (Jazzy J) Johnson
P.S. do not call me this anymore without my permission. I am going to copywrite it!!!
"Don... when I pastored a servicemen's home in Germany there was a Lt. Col who was a chaplain that would preach at our church from time to time".
Ok Mr. Briggs, looks like you have what it takes to be a heavy hitter NTCC preacher since you did serve time overseas! I now have some respect for you.
Since you did that, I won't email Mr. Kekel and tell him that you shared your pulpit with a Chaplain. That would not go over good with Mr. Davis.
Would you be counted as an Attendee, or would you state, Ministers: 2, on your weekly report? But hey, at least he is Accredited! As long as the money is rolling in to Graham, that is all that matters, right?
Fair is Fair. You earned your stripe and I commend you!
Bro Johnson
"Hanna is gone.....
How can two walk together unless they agree? They can't and in time "They went out from us because they were not of us.. and it went out that it might be made MANIFEST that they were not of us"....
So, Mr. Briggs, That's It? No monetary Compensation in loosing my child from NTCC in the line of soul winning duty? No apology, no sympathy (not for me, for for my wife)
No, I will tell you what happened: LETS GO SOUL WINNING!!!!
At least I get monetary compensation from the Army if I loose a child or a wife.
Where is the Accountability from NTCC?
Once again, I cannot remember ever threatening you or your family, if words were said, there would be no denying that there were said, but you would have to look at the context of what was said. Was it literally, or figuratively speaking? I don't know, I don't remember nor hold on to past things except my wife's miscarriage, that is all. Your displaying big time immaturity if your holding grudges you cannot justify holding. You have not lost a child working for NTCC. I have.
For the Record to clarify any past statements I may have stated (I'm getting old and it is hard to remember sometimes; Women remember everything!) I think you have a great family. I wish them the best in life.
I think you, however, have vomited a lot of hateful and slander towards me which could be consider malicious in intent. On the contrary, who is threatening who here? The script is flipped.
I think you mean well but are insecure in yourself. When someone challenges the status quo you feel you have no choice but to go on the offensive. On the contrary, who is offending who here? The script is flipped.
You do seemed to be fixated of the OTHER persuasion.
If I have so offended you or your family, for the record, I apologize.
For the record, I respect you for coming on this blog, more than what most NTCC preachers would do.
I demand an Official Apology from MC Kekel AND RW Davis on my wife's miscarriage. You can relay that to HQ.
That is all I want. An OFFICIAL APOLOGY. Monetary Comp. is appreciated but not required.
Then I will leave this blog forever.
Mr. Briggs, your move.
Brother Johnson
I could care less what the NTCC leadership or it's personnel think or say about me. They don't pay my bills nor do they provide for my family. They don't put a roof over my head. I could care less what they think about me and I have no problem saying what I think about them.
Bother Johnson said..........PREACH!! No NTCC preacher has ever done this for me, nor do I want them to.
Alibi: Sister Macdonald gave me some KFC French Fires one time, I was starving! I gave all my money and tithe to the church in Seoul. And I did not have money to eat! She did not know this at the time!!
I know tithe paying folks don't experience hardships like this Mr. Brigg's church in Pasadena but I did what NTCC preachers commanded of me to do: Give Till It Hurts!! So, I gave it all.
Bro Johnson
"You try to behead people int eh court of public opinion. And you all go to far greater extents and have done so far far longer times then anyone in our camp... period...."
Mr. Briggs,
There is a reason for this. It is called the Internet.
That which NTCC used to preach against will become its own downfall. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
A guy named Lincoln once said that!
Another guy once asked RW Davis how long does NTCC have before compromise creeps into NTCC. RW Davis said "30 years"
Compromise has infiltrated NTCC. It is only a matter of time before the house that Davis built comes tumbling down. Time is NOT on NTCC's side!
Meanwhile Davis and Kekel, Inc sit up in Graham fat and happy.
Doesn't it bother you, Mr. Briggs that your CEO has never left Graham? Has never done a work overseas? Has not proven himself? Lives a life of luxery while your hanging out in Pasadena for God knows how long?
If you think about it, your MORE qualified to run things in Graham than Kekel is!
As a matter of fact, Lets move Mr. Kekel to Pasadena and Mr. Briggs to Graham! Maybe things will get done in NTCC!!
Like I told Mr. Kekel, He continues to keep Rev MacDonald overseas! Why? Why? Why?
I will tell you why. Because men like J.C. Macdonald pose a SERIOUS threat to M.C. Kekel. you put Mr. Macdonald or Mr. Briggs in charge, watch Kekel tuck tail and run!
Bro Johnson
RB said,
"And Don "the duck" pointed out that he was "forgiven" by pastor Davis and God..."
Don and Ange said,
Herein lies the problem. The ntcc never forgives. Although RWD once admitted to me in Colorado Springs that he did not believe that my role in the Hummel and Rudy scandal involved mutual feelings on my part (which is true), There are always people like you Briggs that can't except the assessment of RWD. It's not good enough for you.
I refuse to stand in judgement by you of all people Briggs. There is one that forgives and I have taken these sins to the cross along with many other sins. I'm sure the reason that you have a hard time believing this is because you can't remember the last time you sinned and you have no need for the blood of Jesus in your life. I have never said that I was without guilt or without sin. That's apparently not enough for you, but that's ok, because I do not answer to you or RWD or the ntcc anymore.
You have entered into this forum and spent hours and hours trying to convince me and others that I enjoyed being abused by preachers just like yourself. I was there, you were not. If I were still in the ntcc and a member of your church, and you were told by RWD the details of what happened in Fayetteville, would you be allowing me to live in the servicemen's home? RWD did and during that time I brought hundreds of people to church. I lived 11 more years as a christian in the ntcc with no other incidents.
When I was in Korea under Rev. Barnes, Broadnax made multiple homosexual advances towards me and I refused them. I shared all the details of my past with Rev. Barnes who in turn loved and supported me at that time. We started a servicemen's home and I was the first person to move in, because, Mr. Briggs, there is forgiveness of sins. It burns you that people that leave the ntcc are every bit as saved and even more so then people in your cult.
You can't steal my salvation no matter how hard you try to bring up something that died 25 years ago. Should I care what you have to say? Should I even entertain your blasphemous accusations? Keep accusing me of whatever it is that you are accusing me of. It makes you look like what many on these blogs consider you to be. "Another abusive ntcc minister".
Do you have derogatory nicknames for all of your church members also? Don the Duck, Jazzy J and such? As I've shared before Robert, I've been to hell and back with the ntcc, and there is very little that you or people like you can do to hurt me. The names and accusations, the obvious problem you have with your own masculinity doesn't concern me.
I posted the New Testament Christian Churches of America incorporated homosexual scam and cover-up story so that people can see the side of ntcc that nobody inside the ntcc wants them to see. It was not an easy thing for me to do, but I have to say that it is very therapeutic and healing to make this public. This article has provoked all the desired responses from you Mr. Briggs. You have really come out and showed your true colors as you usually do when trying to defend the cult that you are a highly esteemed member of.
Don and Ange
Welcome back Bro. Johnson,
We missed you and appreciate your service and stand for God. You are a great soldier in more than one Army and don't let some second rate RWD wannabe tell you otherwise!
Don and Ange
Bro Johnson said....
Compromise has infiltrated NTCC. It is only a matter of time before the house that Davis built comes tumbling down.
Jeff said....
compromise has always been in the NTCC, we simply didn't know it. RWD was a compromiser from the start. Olson was the same. The three gay pastors. The Ashmores and their son Jerry and all the coverups. The rundown houses being rented to NTCC personnel by the NTCC leadership. The escrow accounts being zeroed with no accountability. Church member abuse by NTCC pastors which has always existed in the NTCC. The frivolous and vain waste of money on everything that RWD and the Kekels could dream up while the NTCC leadership simultaneously set up a system which made it impossible for other NTCC ministers to live after the same pattern. Adulterous practices by RWD which have been commonly reported by early NTCC personnel. Grope sessions between Mike and Tanya while Tanya was still a young teenager and mike was in his early to mid twenties. The beating of children which resulted in Taylor being sent to jail and RWD having to bail him out and RWD did so for no other reason than to cover the NTCCs back. The Blumenthal debacle. The land deal.
All this was committed which shows a pattern of continuous compromise throughout the NTCCs entire history. The only difference is we all know about it now due to the internet. The NTCC sucks and RWD is a crook. A double standard which has clearly always existed which made provisions for the Kekel's son to live a different lifestyle than virtually every other NTCC child. simply put, what was considered sin for the other children to do, Grant was allowed to do. Sports, Shorts, DVDs, Secular College etc.
Once again, the NTCC sucks.
Jeff
Jeff said, "Once again, the NTCC sucks."
LURCH says .................................PREACH!!
Jeff said, "Once again, the NTCC sucks."
LARCH says .................................AMEN!!!
Oh lets not forget about the split that happened right under RWD's nose by some of his so called greatest pastors. Now Denis and Hanna are thought as dirt but the day before the split they were considered two of the NTCC greatest assets who had both pastored some of the NTCCs largest churches. So much for RWD's choice in men.
I don't care if Moses failed because he smacked a rock. That has nothing to do with nor does it justify RWD's failure in effectively choosing men. Especially when RWD has boldly claimed that his organization is God's sole hope for mankind. Homosexual and abusive pastors are supposed to be the only hope for man kind? Ha, ha, ha, ha. Are you kidding me? Denis the double crosser who only now folks claim was abusive was RWD's right hand man. Blumenthal was RWD's right hand man. Mayers made the trumpet and now all his fellow NTCC pastors that I've talked to considered him dirt. No exceptions. No wonder Mayers hasn't gone to conferences for about the last four years. He is too proud and ashamed. He is still an NTCC pastor though; for all that's worth. Wow.
The NTCC is dysfunctional other than the fact that they are in fact excellent at making money off of real-estate investments. RWD has that mastered and I'd be pretty good at it also if I had a bunch of suckers giving me at least 10% or more of their income. The fact is it's probably 25% or more if you factor in all the pledges and offerings and arbitrary expenditures associated with being an NTCC member. It might even be 50% if you factor in all the gas you burn running back and forth to church and the rental money that the NTCC makes off of you because your only viable option is to rent one of RWD's houses while making payments in cash. Let the blind lead the blind. The NTCC taught me a valuable lesson. Christians can be crooks also.
Jeff
Johnson said:
Have you ever Pastored a work overseas Mr. Briggs? Oh, I forgot, you have NOT. That is reserved for the best of the best of NTCC preachers! Keep on preaching the Truth in Holy Spirit Power! Maybe God, I mean, Mr. Kekel, will give you a chance!
I SAY
Johnson you are so full of yourself... for the SECOND TIME>>> YES I pastored in Vilseck-Schlicht Germany. I took the church in 1998 with a total of 10 people in the church. I left to come home in 2001 to have a baby girl... and the church had 75 with 23 living in the home.... (started with 5). I ran the biggest church EVER in germany to this date beside Rev. LD Jones. Rev. McDonald was my replacement in that work.... So by your own admission I am the best and the brightest right.....because I went over seas....
Jazzy J... you can't copywrigtt somethign someone came up with first... sorry.... your just two slow...
Second you said this
Since you did that, I won't email Mr. Kekel and tell him that you shared your pulpit with a Chaplain. That would not go over good with Mr. Davis.
You again just 1 fry short of a happy meal because Pastor Davis Knows this Chaplain... Has met this chaplain... and had this chaplain preach for Rev. Kinson in Tillicum years ago... THEY ARE FRIENDS man you just dig yourself deeper and deeper in to the whole with all your "suppositions" ... see you don't know as much as you think you do...
Oh and by the way... you are one whinny baby always trying to "tell on me"
And how does a supply sgt put his "life on the line"..
As a 18 man I was one of only 6 people in my BATALLION to earn an EIB... The only Enlisted man.. among 6 officers.. go figure I even excelled at that.... held a E7 slot as an E4 was was promoted to Corpral by the Department of the Army no less.... not my company commander... go figure.. I wonder if I stayed in if you would have been calling me Top.
Johnson said Like I told Mr. Kekel, He continues to keep Rev MacDonald overseas! Why? Why? Why?
Johnson... as I said before I transfered the church I pastored in Germany to Rev. Macdonald.. and I asked him this question personally and his words to me specifically were.... "I don't want to pastpor in the states" He is where he requests to be DOES THAT Blow your mind or what? If Rev. Kekel stayed silent it wsa to show you in effect that it was none of your business...... but so you know the story there ya go.
Don...
No, you are really missing the point so I will slow it down a notch and say it again in a way hopefully you will understand..
WRONGS WERE DONE wether you liked them or not... NO PREACHER SHOULD MAKE THEM ON MEN OR WOMEN... and HOMOSEXUAL PASTOR"S ARE Blasphemous to say the least...
But you post the story, and then Jeff's Headline make it seem like it is current. You even made a statement that 23% of our preachers are guy based on the fact that 23% of your experience with them has been that way. As if your one person experience can relate to the whole of the organization it can not at least not on this issue.
second you sound in your writing like the organizational leadership did you wrong in this where now you are saying pastor Davis believed you, took action against the individuals, and he and others showed you kindness.
My point was to bring out a glaringly obvious thing... if the overwhelming majority is straight and even as most state harsh men, and you find three men, and one woman making sexual advances toward you (whcih by the way I do not believe about the woman) there is something in the way you conduct yourself, act, etc which evokes this response and it is NOT you good looks. That alone does not evoke such responses especailly in an invironemnet such as a church setting where so much is at stake... people that make these types of advances take a calculated risk and they only do so when they FEAL or THINK the odds are in their favor of a favorable outcome... This I have learned in 23 years of ministry. They saw something in you that made them believe you open to the advance... that was my point and I feel quite positive this type of "advance" has been leveled at you your whole life.... This I admit is a guess but that guess is educated.
And for the Record... If as you will see at the top of this thread... you, Michael Beal, and Sgt Johnson had NOT brought my name up and taunted me I would not be here today nor would I be writing... But I say one more time... EVERYONE THAT POSTS IN DEFENSE OF OUR ORGANIZATION IS NOT ME... just FYI... now with that... I go again... meet me half way and I will leave you alone.. your life and complaint are yours... you stand before God as do I... my time of defending other people is done... unless they are my family or my church parishioners... oh and myself... I will always defend myself too.... bye
RB said...
I ran the biggest church EVER in germany to this date
Jeff said...
Sir, through it all, you know that you are ok with me. We have our differences, (often significant) but we seem to get past all of that. Having said that, whether true or not, your statement is quite a bold one. Mayers often bragged about his part in the expansion of the Atlanta church. Well we now see where that got him.
In comparison, RWD is responsible for building the entire NTCC and that means nothing to me nor do I respect him. Crooks get ahead every day. This world is full of millionaires who are outright crooks.
Money and numbers are not indicative someone's spiritual success. RWD thinks so but he is wrong. The Bishop Eddie Long has about 25,000 in his church and let him tell it, he's reached many lost. Let RWD tell it, Eddie Long's church members are a bunch of backsliding Baptists none of which are saved. Eddie Long has millions but I see it as little more then greed and one man living a lavish lifestyle at the expense of a whole bunch of struggling minions with few exceptions.
Just my thoughts Sir.
Jeff
RB said...
But you post the story, and then Jeff's Headline make it seem like it is current.
Jeff said...
It is current info that I was not previously privy to. I know that Don's experiences didn't happen recently but his testimony did. I heard about Broadnax but not the other gay pastors and not to the extent that Don mentioned.
Jeff
Jeff is making some absolutely outstanding points that pastor Briggs seems speechless to adequately respond to!!!
Jeff..
On your comment about my boldness... it is not boldness it is simple fact.... a fact that was necessitated by the comments of Johnson stating that I was of no consequence because I had never "been oversees".. now keeping him in check with his facts I think since he was stating being oversees makes for a real pastor blah blah seemed to be the only way to "Shut" him down... the numbers only tell one thing.. we did our job effective enough to bring people to church and ultimately to Jesus....
So I hope you take this into consideration.
My point about the headline is that your wording is overly broad and a casual reader (whihc many people are) will walk away thinkking that this is a current event, and that these are current preachers which are not.. most have been gone for close to 15-16 years... just for the record.
Anyway.. just saying... Thanks though for your increasingly civil tone with me,
"As a 18 man I was one of only 6 people in my BATALLION to earn an EIB... "
Mr Briggs, too bad you cannot wear that in heaven! But, on the worldy scene..........HOOAH!!
Bro Johnson
"Johnson... as I said before I transfered the church I pastored in Germany to Rev. Macdonald.. and I asked him this question personally and his words to me specifically were.... "I don't want to pastpor in the states" He is where he requests to be"
Mr Briggs, fair enough. You have settled the question. Just seems odd, I say again 5 overseas trips, I did not know that NTCC Pastors had a choice in their PCS', but good stuff to know nevertheless.
So using your own logic your choosing to be where you want to be, cool! I guarantee you if your numbers were to dry up you will be reassigned elsewhere!
Thanks!
Bro Johnson
I think we all better leave Mr. Briggs alone.
He has been on the Internet for quite a long time defending himself. Souls are dying and on their way to hell!
Internet Time Out!
Peace!
Bro Johnson
Pastor Briggs claims that because we voice our true stories of life in the ntcc that he is being taunted and antagonized and he must therefore arise and defend his honour. Shouldn't he be tending the flock that pays him?
Whatever honor Mr. Briggs had he lost from me on Day 1.
This man claims that, had he stayed in, I would be calling him "TOP".
LOL! I would request a work transfer first!!
Just because you do not like somebody does not mean that you cannot work with them!
As I stated on an earlier post, Dirtbag Soldiers get out of the Army and become Dirtbag civilians. need I say more?
The scary part is, had I stayed in NTCC, I could have seen myself working under a guy like Briggs thinking he could do no wrong and walked on water! All the while he got rich and I maintained a poverty level status preacher.
I must make for some excellent preaching material!
Bro Johnson
RB, 'pastor' robert briggs of the Pasadena, TX new testament christian churches of America, inc. said,
"Don... you post the story, and then Jeff's Headline make[s] it seem like it is current. You even made a statement that 23%[21.5%] of our preachers are guy [gay] based on the fact that 23%[21.5%] of your experience with them has been that way. As if your one person experience can relate to the whole of the organization it can not at least not on this issue."
Don and Ange said,
Hey Robert, I understand your defensive point of view. However, I have to say that Jeff's post about this story, while it may not be new to RWD and the General Board, it is new to many in and out of the ntcc.
I don't think anyone believes that the 3 incidents involving 3 pastor's in the ntcc are isolated incidents. I know that you don't consider me a victim in any way but that's ok, like I said earlier, God knows and I know and what you think matters very little to me. I will tell you this; I am not the only one that was victimized by these three Pastors. I know of three others that went through the same thing that I went through and I've recently learned that there might be more. I'm the only one that has come forward and admitted what took place in the Servicemen's home and church in Fayetteville, NC. RWD also knows of one other individual who was married with children and also caught up in this mess.
Let me ask you this Robert; If three cockroaches crawled out of your kitchen cabinet, would you kill them and not look for any others? Would you be so naive to think that those were the only three? I had 3 out of 14 pastors in the ntcc that were gay predators and that = 21.5%. I know that you would like to believe that there are and never have been any other sexual predators that were ntcc pastors but I don't believe that you are that stupid. In fact I think you are pretty smart and that your objective is the same as the ntcc. Brush it under the carpet like every other form of abuse so that the money will keep flowing in.
Don and Ange
RB said,
"My point was to bring out a glaringly obvious thing... if the overwhelming majority is straight and even as most state harsh men, and you find three men, and one woman making sexual advances toward you (whcih by the way I do not believe about the woman) there is something in the way you conduct yourself, act, etc which evokes this response and it is NOT you good looks."
Don and Ange said,
If you don't believe me about the woman than ask RWD. He knows about the woman. In fact RWD himself came down to Colorado Springs to remove her and her husband from the Church. If you don't believe RWD, Ask DT or NT and if they are honest, you will hear the same story. And if you don't believe them, I'll have my wife post about her knowledge of what happened at Fort Carson. She was there also and has some very interesting information to add to that story.
It all boils down to the fact that you can not accept the fact that there is corruption in the ntcc. You say that we all get together on these blogs and say the same things over and over again. The problem is, Robert, that you refuse to believe them even though deep down inside, you have got to know that they are true. The ntcc breeds abuse and creates predators and victims by it's unbiblical policies of vasectomies, celibacy (strict dating policies) and divorce (adultery on demand) policies and has a history of ignoring child abuse and many other forms of abuse. Who keeps digging the hole deeper and deeper?
Again, Robert, we would like to thank you for making this blog very interesting again. It seems like every time you show up you give us lots to talk about.
Don and Ange
RB said...
So I hope you take this into consideration.
Jeff said...
I do and your point is well taken. Sometimes it's necessary to state the facts regardless of whether or not they come across as boasts. The number of church members you had could have been left out but the fact that you were oversees was needed to set the record straight.
My feeling about you don't necessarily parallel some of the others here. I just can't stand the NTCC and quite obviously you are a part of it but you know what? If I were to hold that against you I'd be no different than the NTCCers who hold it against me because I'm not. I don't blame you for defending yourself because I'd do the same thing. I defended myself while I was in the NTCC for many years. I just so happen to be on the other side of the fence now.
I just hate what the NTCC has done to so many people and I can't stand their partiality and nepotism. That might work for a business but it shouldn't work for a church. Mike Kekel might be a smart guy and I believe he is but that is not why he is the CEO. It's because of who he is married to, plain and simple. The same goes with that whole clan up in Graham. I don't need to name names any longer. We all know them. The NTCC is a family run business and anyone with two eyes that are "open" can see that plain as day. That is the way I see it and it's too obvious to deny. Now if someone wants to choose to remain a part of that, then that's up to them. We all have to do what we think is best. I know without doubt that the best situation for me and my family is to not be a part of the NTCC.
If I were an NTCC pastor, I couldn't with a good conscience send one soul to Graham. I know what Graham is all about. Too many NTCC ministers who are still with the NTCC told me about Graham, and their stories are the same as the ministers who've left, so my analysis isn't one sided. I know of an NTCC minister who categorically stated that he will not go back to Graham and he is not the only one.
So how in the world if I were an NTCC pastor could I send someone to Graham? And keep a clean conscience? I think not. So if I couldn't even with a good conscience send someone to Graham, (and that is what the NTCC is all about, which it is) then how could I support the NTCC leadership? And then send them money that I brought into my church? No way. Not one dime that came into my church would leave my church. I'd give it to charity before I sent it to Graham to line what are already fat pockets. Christianity is not a pyramid scheme where everything roles to the top. Show me that one in the New Testament Bible.
Christianity isn't about a massive accumulation of real-estate that you rent to your church members and ministers. Show me that in the New Testament Bible. Your lively hood is dependent on this system and as a result you have no other choice but to support it. Mine doesn't and I don't support the NTCC's real-estate pyramid scheme. The New Testament Bible simply doesn't teach what the NTCC advocates. No where can you find it in the New Testament where a Christian church system exists where one Christian is a multi-millionaire because of the money that everyone else gives who are in the same church. While at the same time others can't hardly afford to go to conference. That is just flat out greed and the New Testament Bible doesn't show that pattern nor advocate it.
Jeff
Really good point Jeff! Thank you for sharing that.
Accepted Jeff... thank you for your honesty. I do see things differently. Maybe I am in darkness... pray for my enlightenment if so. But I have a certain perspective based on my own personal experience as I've said before and need not say again.
I do not blame you, or anyone that truly had negative experience their right to leave. I do not hold a brother or sister accountable and I do not think them unsaved.
You know I have proverbial "bloody knuckles" but that does not mean I want to fight.
I do believe their can be discourse but if we all are as concerend about souls as we imply we must agree that the civil discourse is the way to go. I know the answer most give (You guys did it for x# of years) but many mothers teach their kids "two wrongs don't make a right".
For every person that is persuaded to leave, or persuaded to stay there are many more that get persuaded to give up on God all togther and that can not be good for any of us can it?
I do not see my church lining peoples pockets, but then again I know things about some peoples "personal business dealings" that might make me biased. Did you know I have a furniture making company? Probably not but I do. And while I don't make tons of money with it it helps. Do I take part of my livelyhood from my church yes of course I do.. but that is not wrong in my belief system which regardless of others I am intitled to have. (I do believe you give me this right too you just think there should be a cap on us all and I AGREE!!!!)
There is a lot of supposition that goes on whether from ourside thinking they know why you & yours "left" to your side thinking they know things like wether or not we have been overseas or why one man never seems to come back home. Be HONEST with yourself and everyone else and just say I DON'T KNOW.
Don't portray to honest seekers information that just might be false solely for the sake of winning them over. Give them the respect they deserve and let them make their own conclusions based on the truth as it is not as it MIGHT be.
Tell your stories by all means. But stop short of bringing personal names out. Unless it is 100% necessary to bring up... and then do it with prayerful consideration with a tone of civility... I am thinking of the exchange I had here with Peaceful Heart...
Anyway... thanks Jeff. Thank you that you are allowing me room to "follow peace" with you. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye but at least we can agree to disagree and act more like the Christians we both know ourselves to be.
Peace.
Jeff said...
Peace to you also. I can live with that. We've had enough exchanges on this thread. We'll save some more for another. Ha, ha.
I can't however speak for anyone else nor do I plan to. Everyone is entitled to their opinion around here and they are also entitled refute what others write.
Well fair'nuf if I can find "peace" with one it's a enough.
Thanks! Bye
RB said,
"Tell your stories by all means. But stop short of bringing personal names out"
Don and Ange said,
I understand where you are coming from on that and I also understand that there are people in the ntcc that have drawn first blood. The names that I have brought out on this blog, are all responsible for destroying large portions of our lives and we believe naming names is an effective way of warning people that the ntcc is truly a cult. If you don't say names than people like you, Robert, will say that we are making baseless accusations.
I don't take any pleasure in drudging all this up again. If this garbage never happened to me I'd probably be doing the same thing you are doing right now. I knew my name would be smeared by folks like you and I'm sure there is more to come. But guess what? People are starting to come out of the woodworks now with stories of abuse that they have suffered at the hands of the ntcc.
We are the X-ers. There are more of us than you know. We are not afraid to speak out. We will not be silenced. We are still sons and daughters of the Most High. We will let others know about the abusive ways of the ntcc.
Don and Ange
Some times names must be brought out. How else do you establish credibility without naming people? That is like saying a Pastor is messed up but you never say who he is. No one is interested in that. That is like going to a trial and when the judge says who is the murder you say I can't name names. Pastors in the NTCC name names all the time.
Sis so and so is no longer here because she wanted to dress like a whore and she wanted to work on a job but her husband, bro so and so is still with us because he loves God more than he loves the world.
But that is ntcc there high and holy. They can use people's names in front of an ENTIRE conregation. Because God told them to do that. All they do is directed by God. Don't ya'll remember that?LoL
We are the evil Xers. That have a grudge. We are bitter,angry and have it out for ntcc. that is what they feed there followers. To make it all sound good and keep everyone happy. And still coming through there doors. Instead of facing reality. Lets keep pushing the truth aside. Not fess up and acknowledge that ntcc HAS changed. That God must not have been directing Rw davis all those years. Because if God was directing RW davis then nothing should have changed. Mike K. was all along just waiting until he could start making the changes. To make it a mainstream church. Slowly,but surely ntcc is not going to be a penticostle look alike. Next will be Make-up is allowed. IF the ladies just wear alittle then there NOT trying to be Jezzebels. THEN it will be hair lengths for women. Just a trim is Ok. Mike doesn't do anything quickly. Slowly takes a bite away here and there. Slowly water it down. So the masses do not suspect
anything and keep swallowing the crap that is fed to them in a "church" setting.
So until ntcc stops pretending all is well and nothing has changed. Then folks will be blogging and exposing ntcc for what theh truely are! A bunch of false teachers!
April
April said...
We are bitter,angry and have it out for ntcc. That is what they feed there followers.
Jeff said...
Ain't that the truth. They sling names around like a dog slings around a bone but were are expected not to do the same. You reminded me of the times that NTCC pastors said: "God told me to say this". The way I see it, God didn't tell them to say anything. These guys are lairs and or delusional. Very good points April.
Jeff
I know of this one preacher who not only said the person's name in front of the congregation but he also tried to ostracize this person by telling everyone not to talk to him.
Even though this person never tried to harm anybody in that congregation, gave money in the offerings, but yet the pastor tried to villianize him, but God saw all of it, and God has now blessed that person more than his wildest dreams!!!
That's interesting because most of the people that I know who've left the NTCC are doing quite well also.
The NTCC seems to do everything but bless you. To the contrary, they bleed you of everything they possibly can. Time, money, family and freedom. They historically want to control your family, your time, your money, and they want to take your freedom. Everything you do they want to spin so that somehow it is a benefit to them. Not God but them.
The NTCC is an organization full of control mongers. Once you break away from their control, you realize what your God given life is supposed to be all about. Christianity isn't about what the NTCC teaches, I can promise you. True God given blessings don't come with following the NTCC's way. They really come when you break away from the NTCCs control.
Jeff
My story is true and I'm not the one least bit kidding. I am blessed now more than what I COULD HAVE EVER IMAGINED!!! I could mention names but I'll hold off for now but one thing I KNOW OF FOR SURE, GOD SAW ALL OF IT AND THE BLESSINGS HAVE BEEN RAINING DOWN SINCE THEN!!!
Gal. 2:10, "Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do."
When is the last time you ever heard ntcc preach about remembering the poor??? They sometimes deliberately ignore straightforward teachings that are in the Bible while promoting a doctrine that really can't be proven to be in the Bible.
Real blessings don't come until you leave the NTCC. I believe that God uses churches like the NTCC to effectively open up your eyes so you can learn what churches and cults to avoid. Now I can spot a money hungry greedy cult a mile away.
You can tell a money hungry greedy church when every church in the organization during every church service says "all Christians pay tithe and give in the offering". That is no more than a psychological guilt trip ploy to make you feel guilty if you don't give "TO THE CHURCH". You could give to the poor but the NTCC will mock you for that.
They tell you that "all Christian pay tithe and give in the offering" so that you don't feel like you're a Christian when you don't give. Then, once you give money to the church again, you are supposed to feel like a real Christian. That is a greedy money hungry cult tactic all the way.
According to the Bible, you are supposed to feel guilty when you don't provide for your family, not when you don't provide for the church. The Bible doesn't say that you are worse than an infidel if you don't give money to the church but it does say that you are worse than an infidel when you don't provide for your family.
So keep giving your money to the NTCC while failing to effectively provide for your family and you my friend are worse than an infidel. This was a free lesson on: How to avoid a cult 101. Send all checks and make all payments to Jeff Collins. I only accept cash. I don't want anyone to be able to trace checks in case I ever get investigated. A little jewel I picked up from the NTCC. Next week we'll teach a new lesson on "How to spot a control monger freak 101". You can avoid this lesson by stepping foot practically any NTCC Church, world wide. Often true life experiences are better teachers.
Jeff
Jeff said, "I know of an NTCC minister who categorically stated that he will not go back to Graham and he is not the only one."
Don and Ange say,
WOW! Jeff, WOW! Are you saying there are ministers who labor in / for the ntcc that REFUSE TO WORK IN GRAHAM, WA.???
THAT IS HUGE!
If your corporate headquarters and training center is so messed-up that your own ministers do not want to labor there THAT IS REALLY SAYING SOMETHING ABOUT HOW MESSED-UP YOUR WHOLE ORGANIZATION IS!!!
My question to those individuals is,
Why be a part of a group when you don't want to be around the leaders of that group? The whole thrust of the ntcc has always been to get more recruits to their indoctrination center; whether they call it a bible school or seminary. If you know you don't want to 'be there' how can you ask someone else to 'go there'???
Do unto others.
Don and Ange
Wow, totally great point Jeff!!!
Jeff said, "The New Testament Bible simply doesn't teach what the NTCC advocates."
Don and Ange say,
We know how to solve everyone's problems here.
ntcc (New Testament Christian Church)
should simply change its name to
otcc (Old Testament Controlled Cult)
This would be more indicative of all the customs / 'policies' / rules held by their group. And people who type "OTCC" into their favorite internet browser / search engine would not see all these blogs by former ministers and members who eXpose the truth about the flaws in the ntcc.
It would be a "win-win".
Let's see how long it will be before kekel takes this advice and changes his cult's name to try and hide their true colors from the unsuspecting public...
Don and Ange
I know of this one preacher in ntcc who didn't think enough money was coming in from me so after the church service he questioned me in a angry tone about more 1/10th cash money payments.
I explained to him that I had a large car payment that I had to pay plus other things for my family. "His reply???" What was his reply??? He said, "Shoula, Coulda, Woulda," plus he said something else. He also said later on that if these 1/10th cash money payments did not come in then I had a "heart" problem. Wow, far cry from Paul telling people to give as they purpose in their heart. They probably would try to argue with Paul the apostle and tell him he was wrong.
Paul told people that they should give as they purpose in their heart, not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful GIVER.
That one fella in Acts 8 almost got into deep trouble when he tries to offer the apostles money for the gift of God when Peter said, "thy money perish with you because you thought the gift of God could be purchased with money!!!"
If money did not buy me God's gift of salvation then I DONT HAVE TO PAY MONEY TO KEEP IT!!! Let that settle in your head real good!!!
Jeff... with all due respect.. you're too smart to use that argument... that we are money hungry... If I wanted money I would....
1) Stay away from confrontational issues - which we don't
2) Never condemen anythings - which we don't
3) Teach the women to go get jobs - which we don't
And so much more.
Now I know you might say "Well it's a control issue" but that changes the subject. Your asserting we are "Money Hungry". If you say it's the organizational leadership that is "Money Hungry" the local church only sends in a Pastor's Tithe from the weekly tithe recieved and an Organization Tithe from the offerings recieved... these amounts for most of our churches are a pitence because as is regularly pointed out we have such small congregations in most locations.
Sure we put an emphasis on growth. But not growth for growth sake or we would incorprate an approach more like that of Joel Olsteen or Benny Hinn or John Hagee just to name a few.
Be non-confrontational.. Non-comittal... non-agressive....
Have you ever worked in a church office with any of your pastors? Did you count the offerings? Was their much there?
Most offerings average about $1 per pereson in attendance though each person in attendance is not giving $1. Most comes from a few. The rest sit there and shout on someone elses dime....
Just adding to your discussion.
To "M" anon above...
Let this settle in your head. You can not attend a church service in a building that is owned by the bank without PAYING FOR IT. And every person that calls that place "home" has a duty bound obligation to PAY for it equally.
Yet in your case you were buying groceries... then locking them in the room away from your wife and child.
As a matter of fact. I had to give your Diabetic wife $150 MYSELF after she fainted in one of our services because she was not eating properly at home... You would go buy yourself burgers in bags and bring nothing for your wife and son...
LET THAT SINK IN... what kind of a MAN DOES THAT?
I did work in a ntcc church office (a servicemen's church) at one time and it was ABSOLUTELY NO BIG DEAL for us to have $5000 over and above AFTER everything was paid.
The money was directed to be sent to a escrow account into two $2500 deposits. They did not want it to be deposited as the whole $5000 but in two $2500 deposits into this escrow account.
I have no idea whatever became of the money. And this was many years ago. I know that some money from this servicemen's church was used to build the new Graham church.
Your lying again & again just like Kekel said Casey went to Florida to play golf and found out that he told a lie. I didn't "lock" no groceries away. We had plenty to eat. My X-wife is not diabetic.
That goes to show you how much you really know about her and she has been in your congregation giving you 1/10 cash money for about 6 years now.
Stop getting angry at people who don't give you 1/10th cash money payments and start telling everyone in your church where "ALL" their money goes. Tell them how much the building costs & they will help pay for it. You are to live of the gospel not get rich off of it.
You said previously that maybe you are in the dark & I can believe it. Come on with some more lies while your church pays you to sit behind that computer.
Well if you didn't do it your wife, son, and inlaws maintain that you did... it's their "True Personal Account" of which no one should ever questions someones "Personal Experience". They are not to be questioned lest you be guilty of trying to lie on them. Isn't that what we are told time and time again here on this blog? A personal experience of someone, so detailed and personal as this MUST BE TRUE because why would anyone lie about such a thing?
Anonymous said...
I know of this one preacher who not only said the person's name in front of the congregation but he also tried to ostracize this person by telling everyone not to talk to him.
Even though this person never tried to harm anybody in that congregation, gave money in the offerings, but yet the pastor tried to villianize him, but God saw all of it, and God has now blessed that person more than his wildest dreams!!!
FEBRUARY 10, 2011 1:29 PM
Don and Ange say,
Now THAT story just BEGS TO HAVE the NAMES named!
Don and Ange
Yea, I see what you are trying to get across Robert. I remember several times my wife would tell me to "put the cokes in the closet, we're going to have a lot of company tonight. So we would leave out what we wanted for company & the rest went into the closet. None of our closets had locks.
Nothing was "locked up." We had groceries. I was working during that time & nobody told me nothing. By the time I heard about it it was over.
There has never been one time during the time we were married that if I had money and we needed more groceries that I would not have either given the money to my wife or went out and did the shopping myself which I did many many many times at that Pasadena Wal-Mart. That's why we are both fat and overweight, matter of fact I need to go exercising again tonight.
Who visited you in the hospital? Even when you were not paying tithe?
Who said "I know God is giving me a last opportunity to get right and it's now or never.... I'm going to do right from now on?"
Wasn't that... oh yeah... that was you!
Who got caught lying when they told their wife they were going to one place they went to another city in another stay to see a completely different man... why did you lie to your wife about it?
Sir, you have too many things in your closet to be throwing stones at anyone.... and anyone that knows about your life and what you do will say the same...
Shall I print all of your infractions...
Shall I tell of you emailing 10 -12 year old kids against their parents will repeatedly?
Shall I tell of you trying to stir people up against me?
Shall I tell of you stalking me in cyberspace writing my old grade school, and High School friends trying to get some "scoop"
Shall I tell of your conversation with the fella in Amarillo (which conversations I have copies of by the way.. where he told you he did not want to be apart of it)
Should I explain that the man you so like to say I "Turned" against you was a licensed minister and assigned to be my helper and as such was in the leadership of my congregation and so fully qualitifed to be instructed to "keep an eye on you" after your many instnaces.
You distrupted services....
You lied to people....
You lied to me repeatedly...
Shall I keep going on? And that was just the stuff you did with me....
What of your court case In washington?
What of the Porn problem?
What of the cell phone video?
What of
What of
What of..
I COULD GO ALL DAY writing about you.
And your accusation about me? I am a 1/10th tithe preacher of which over 80 of the current church world and close to 95 percent of the ancient church world believed in....
Fine... you don't believe the docrine of tithe... that's your right... time will tell who is right!
Start a church, teach the people your truth... no tithe here.. love offerings only.. here is the basket... if you want to put it in go for it if not fine...
but prented no more that WE... or I invented the doctrine... or that we are the only people in the world that believe it.
How does it feel to be living in a VA Homless shelter when your own mother, father, and sister don't want you to live with them?
How does it feel to have people on your own side say they have to cut you off because you are over the edge?
We can debate why.. some will say it's our organizations fault because we "made" you that way...
But who taught you to have sexual interest in kids... who taught you to embrace porography? Who taught you to neglect your family?
BECUASE THOSE THINGS ARE NOT PART OF OUR DOCTRINE!
Don are you so dim that you do not follow the dialogue and know this anon person is
Micahel Beal
and that the preacher he is referring to is
ME - Robert Briggs
No, Mike did not pay much if any in the way of offerings because he did not come that much and when he did he was usually late.
He had the full benefit of visitiaton but I did tell him close to the end that I was through dealing with him...
His wife did pay her tithe out of her own money he did not.. or at least not very often.
Most offerings average about $1 per pereson in attendance though each person in attendance is not giving $1. Most comes from a few. The rest sit there and shout on someone elses dime....
from briggs.
If you take a peek inside ntcc churches. they are generally low in attandance numbers. Why? Because the general public is Wise enough not to either walk through there doors or if they do. Back up as fast as they can. I know right now of a church in Willmington,MC. That has been there over five years. And still in dwindling low numbers. It has gone No Where since they have been there. That is the story for most ntcc "churches".
With Rw davis he wanted to stay off the grid and keep a low profile. BUT now with Mike K. in control. and he is in control. Everyone always knew he would be and Olson is just a puppet!!! Mike wants the big church,glamour,his name up in lights. As with the Many changes that have occured over the recent years.
Only Certain ones get wealthy in ntcc. The so called elite!
oh and briggs,your trying to rationalize with a brainwashed fogged ntcc brain. So your really fighting a losing battle. Those of us are are much sharper and have the edge over you!!!!
Your lying again Robert Briggs. Go tend to the flock that is paying you. Even the person that used to be in your church that is in Amarillo said you made him suspicious against me. You then called me up on the phone insinuating I was talking about you to this fella when I was talking about companies wanting tall people to be in charge.
I have no interest in kids, your lying again. Yes I've been tempted by pornography & have sometimes failed. No I'm not perfect. Yes I need forgiveness from time to time. No your not getting anymore of my money.
I'm glad you have a big fancy house in Deer Park Texas, yes, please excuse my humble abode. I've paid thousands and thousands of dollars to ntcc. Thanks for visiting me in the hospital. I've thanked you several times. How
long are you going to hold that over my head?
Yes God has completely healed me and I wonder if you are happy about that? You have church to get ready for tonight Robert.
RB, 'pastor' robert briggs of ntcc, Pasadena, TX said, and we quote:
"Let this settle in your head. You can not attend a church service in a building that is owned by the bank without PAYING FOR IT. And every person that calls that place "home" has a duty bound obligation to PAY for it equally."
Well we must have missed that scripture!
Is that from the book of Demas?
Pray tell, 'pastor'.
Don and Ange
Wow, awesomely good point Don and Ange!!!
Anonymous (February 10, 2011 5:46 PM) said,
"The money was directed to be sent to a escrow account into two $2500 deposits. They did not want it to be deposited as the whole $5000 but in two $2500 deposits into this escrow account."
This smacks of tax evasion!
Large deposits and large escrow accounts are red flagged for IRS tax examination.
Can anyone in ntcc give a legal reason for splitting up deposits?
It makes ntcc look like a bunch of crooks!
So if we have so few in attendence why do you worry? Your winning... just screaming about what is "wrong" all the time brings more changes which makes us get bigger... your best course of action is let things be as they are and we would emplode.... right?
So really... by having this stuff going on.. you just make use "reflect" more and "change more" which will help us to "reach more"... man, thinking about it that way I just have to say "THANK YOU FOR BEING OUR FRIEND!"
Don said
Large deposits and large escrow accounts are red flagged for IRS tax examination.
Don... you silly boy... if you but two $2500 deposits into the same account or one $5000 deposit the same amount of money is in the account. So a large account would STILL be flagged then.
You poor soul... did you not do well in math?
RB (are you Pastor Briggs?),
Still nothing on tithe? Do you need more time? If you pass on this opportunity, I understand.
Defending tithe using NTCC's proof texts is an untenable position.
As you found out, if you went to the link I provided to Deborah's blog, and if you went back and re-read the article you earlier recommended to us all.
Gregory
I dunno, we just did what we were told to do with the $5000 by the person that was the overseer of that servicemen's home at that time.
We were going to deposit $5000 at one time but the overseer said "no" make two $2500 deposits. I should know, I worked in the church office there for a while. It was to be deposited in the escrow account in two $2400 payments.
The goopspell according to RB:
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to only tithe-paying creatures.
He that payeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that payeth not shall be damned.
He that is paid-up shall go-up.
He that is paid-up shall receive visitation.
He that is paid-up shall receive cover-up ministerial confidentiality.
But he that oweth, shall be eXposedth!
Straight from "the manly mind" of 'pastor' RB, robert briggs of the Pasadena, TX new testament christian churches of America, inc.
PAY UP OR PRAY UP -- You're gonna need it.
Don and Ange
Greg.. keep watching my site.. I would rather take time on that if you don't mind. I will write an article and post it there... Then we can talk.
Don... that is actually very funny... you have a sense of humor..... and I mean that...
Of course 3/4 of my congregation (or so) do not pay tithe and they all still come... so... go figure
Good point Greg.
We all believe in giving to support our local church. But like I said before if you have to go back to council meetings of the sixth century and "others do it, it must be right," to try to prove mandatory 1/10th cash
money payments while NOT being able to prove it in the Bible, then, at that point you can make the Bible say ANYTHING you want and the foundation is completely lost!
Thanks RB.
Although, you have taken some amount of time here, on non-tithe related postings; and you did respond to a tithe attack here. So I joined that conversation.
I'll wait. If you can, send me a message on facebook when you post it.
Gregory
This is my last post because I have to leave.... but I will offer this....
The proof does nor rest upon the "tithe" paying church but upon those that say it is no longer required.
We know it was started by God... You are now the ones that must proove he ever stopped it.
An object in motion tends to stay in motion don't you know until it is acted upon by an outside force.
Tithe existed before the Law of Moses, it was confirmed under the law of moses, and it was confirmed by Jesus. There are the three witnesses
Pre-Law
Law
Post Law
But do tell where in scripture does it say "thou shalt no longer tithe of thine first fruits for that is now doneth awayeth....."
Will do Greg
Yea that was really good Don!!! I'm copying that one. Now Robert, those people at your church that are not paying in the mandatory 1/10th cash payments are you going to wait till they're outside the front door...
and ask them in a angry tone when are they going to start paying their mandatory 1/10th cash money payments and if the say, "Ive got a car payment and my family has bills," Are you then going to say, "WOULDA, COULDA, SHOULDA!!!"
Once again I do apologize for my humble abode and I do hope you are enjoying your big house in Deer Park. I probably paid for a brick or two of your house with all the money I did put in the basket when I was down there.
Michael Beal once they have been coming to the church for over 20 years I probably will..
Here is a picture of my humble "Big" house so all can see what you are talking about.
http://ntccpasadenatx.org/blogs2/?attachment_id=1035
spacious... roomy.. overly for with lavish style and decedance.... and yes your mandatory 1/10th payment payed for 1 brick.. see it... its right there under the second window on the right... right.. right ... there!
Well if you want to go to the pre-law or the law "Christian tithing" is about as Biblical as "Christian burnt offerings!!!" They also had animal sacrifices before the law but I understand, "It's pick and choose."
I'm going to tell you strait from the apostle Paul's, minister to the Gentiles, mouth, "IF any man give let him give AS HE purposeth in his heart..." You have any evidence Paul said otherwise??? Let's hear it.
RB said...
Jeff... with all due respect.. you're too smart to use that argument... that we are money hungry... If I wanted money I would....
Jeff said...
Even though you are part of the NTCC this really isn't about you. If the shoe fits ok but you don't run the NTCC and you didn't teach virtually every NTCC pastor right before he took up the offering to say, "ALL CHRISTIANS PAY TITHE AND GIVE IN THE OFFERING".
Now Sir, I'm going to use one of your phrases. You are too smart to not fully understand that a statement like that made right before every offering is no more than a psychological ploy to guilt trip people into giving up their money. What is wrong with, "Now we will pass around the offering plate". PERIOD. Not that whole guilt trip phrase that RWD and his fellow leaders have repetitively driven into the heads of their minions. Every NTCC pastor that I ever had said the exact same thing. "ALL CHRISTIANS PAY TITHE AND GIVE IN THE OFFERING".
This clearly implies that if you don't pay tithe and give in the offering, (here is the key part) YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN. And therefor if you want to be considered a Christian by an NTCC pastor you must pay tithe and give in THEIR offering. Giving to the poor doesn't qualify, according to NTCCs clearly stated standards. Helping the fatherless and widow doesn't qualify according to the NTCC leadership. Giving money to your own family doesn't make you a Christian according to NTCCs clearly stated standards. The only type of giving that qualifies you to be considered a Christian (according to NTCCs clearly stated standards) would be that you pay tithe and give in their offering.
Well Pastor Briggs, you can't find that mandate anywhere in the New Testament Bible. NO WHERE. So therefor, I can only logically conclude with absolute certainty that your leadership who teaches all their pastors to make that statement are some seriously conniving and money hungry people or they are all deceived enough to follow one money hungry dude and that is RWD.
If I'm taught to guilt trip people into giving money, whether I realize I'm doing it or not, I'm still guilt tripping them while advocating a money hungry greedy practice. Sir, I'm not going to change my mind on this one because I'm right.
Well there are a lot of Christians who don't pay tithe and give in the offering.
Which of these is better and clearly the example of loving thy neighbor as thyself in the sight of God according to the New Testament Bible? Which of these would truly qualify someone to be considered a Christian i.e. "Christ Like".
To give to a multi-million dollar corporation (Specifically the NTCC in this case) or give to the poor and monetarily help the fatherless and the widow? If you truly believe in a fair but just God who will judge, you'd better carefully choose your answer. I know which one is the right answer and so does God.
Jeff
RD said...
Here is a picture of my humble "Big" house so all can see what you are talking about.
Jeff said...
Nice house however your house wouldn't look like that if you'd married Tanya Davis. Checkmate, case closed, game over. You can't possibly have a come back for that one and if you do (respectfully) your deceived. Pastor Briggs, this isn't about you. You are just a small insignificant piece in a big crooked puzzle. You are better then the people you follow. I can no longer hang with the Pharisees. I think eventually you won't be able to either. Either that or you'll no longer have a conscience. For someone who believes in God, that is a dangerous position to find yourself in.
Jeff
Anonymous (February 10, 2011 7:46 PM) said, "Once again I do apologize for my humble abode and I do hope you are enjoying your big house in Deer Park. I probably paid for a brick or two of your house with all the money I did put in the basket when I was down there."
There it is folks. The poor funding the rich... YOUR ntcc
And briggs / RB accused this anonymous of buying burgers in sacks while not providing groceries for his wife and child asking, WHAT KIND OF A MAN DOES THAT?
Well, briggs, ask yourself this:
ntcc missionaries go without food
ntcc missionaries go without furniture
ntcc missionaries live in poverty
all while ntcc 'leaders' in Graham live in gluttony, with luxurious furnishings, in mansions.....
WHAT KIND OF A 'PASTOR' DOES THAT????????????????????????????
.....H...E...L...L...O....
Did ya get it yet???????????????????
Don and Ange
Wow, totally awesomely good points!
Hey Mike. If you have some personal problem with Robert Briggs why don't you find another medium to grind the axe. For the record, I'm not a fan of NTCC pastors at all. Having said that, the church that Briggs Pastors is his church. I wish it was a whole lot more his church and not the NTCCs (which it is) but he is still the pastor. If you don't like his church, (which you didn't) then you leave. No one kicked me out, I left the NTCC. That wasn't the case with you. You conducted yourself in such a way that he didn't think was acceptable and frankly your conduct was quite questionable (to say the least). So what I'm saying is that if he didn't want you in his church that is his right and prerogative.
You either at least remotely abide by his rules (which you didn't) or you have to leave or get kicked out. Buddy, you have to take some responsibility for your actions. You can do anything you want but when you take pictures and you don't safe guard them and others gain access to them, then don't be surprised when some serious questions and CONCERNS arise. I've talked to you and I've talked to Briggs and frankly I don't blame Briggs in this case. I don't agree with Briggs about 85% of the time but in your case I do and I was your friend. So coming from someone who you knew as a friend you should consider what I say. Take it for what it's worth.
I'm no longer interested in these confrontations between you and Pastor Briggs on this blog. I will delete them from here on out. Mike you should settle up with the man and accept some responsibility for your actions. And Pastor Briggs, for all it's worth, forgive the Dude. Is it possible that you may have been too hard on him on a few occasions? I'm not one sided. Pastor Briggs ain't all wrong folks. I still can't stand the NTCC.
Jeff
Jeff, I have ABSOLUTELY no axe to grind with Robert Briggs. I make points on your blog and don't even mention his name at all. He comes on here falsely accusing me of several things and I hope that you would allow me to defend myself.
Jeff, I will not bring his name up anymore. Can you ask him not to bring my name up anymore? I make points without mentioning names. I hope you will allow me to defend myself if he falsely accuses me again.
I will not bring up his name again if that is what you want. I hope that you will allow this comment to stay posted.
Forget it, I'm going to blow the whistle here. Back in 1985 I knew Michael Beals. We were pretty good friends. We were both in the NTCC church at Fort Hood Tx. Mike goes off to "Bible School" with I not don't consider a Bible school. It's a cult indoctrination camp but anyway back to the story. I don't hear from Mike for about 25 years and then through the grape vine I hear that he got kicked out of Pastor Briggs church by Pastor Briggs. So I call up Pastor Briggs to find out what happened and Briggs tells me what happened but we get mad at each other and I hang up on him because I'm no longer interested in letting NTCC pastors bully me around which is what I felt he was trying to do. Briggs is alright with me but he is still an NTCC pastor and he frequently acts like one so we naturally didn't get along even though we do now. We are starting to understand each other better.
So I call up Mike and ask him some questions and Mike confirms (almost) everything that Pastor Briggs said about him. Doing stuff like jacking off and taking pictures of himself doing it and saying racially insensitive stuff in the process. Then someone else gets a hold of these pictures and or videos with sound and Briggs call him on the carpet.
Well buddy let me tell you something. If I were to take a video of me masturbating (which I wouldn't) while saying racial stuff (which I wouldn't) I certainly would let someone get a hold of the video so others could watch it, which is exactly what Mike did. Not my WIFE not my friends not anyone. Buddy that would creep me out too if I found something like that, so people you can't blame Pastor Briggs for this on one bit. Blame him for other actions but not this and if you do, we can still be friends but I'll stick up for the man every time and then we will just have to agree to disagree. The reason I'm bringing thisi out is because I'm tired of this confrontation on this blog between Mike and Briggs and if we are going to jump on Briggs we are going to jump on him for something legit and not this situation because in my book Briggs wasn't wrong.
Now if I'm a big man enough to daily slam NTCCers for their hypocrisy then buddy I'm real enough point an exer who's done the same whether he was my friend of not. I don't want to be partial. I got to live with my conscience. Amen.
Jeff
Jeff I have to live with my conscience to and I did not say that I wanted to kill blacks and Hispanics on that video. That is an outright lie.
My wife only told him about that video and we don't even have two witnesses here. I know what I said and I didn't say that.
Mike said...
I will not bring up his name again if that is what you want. I hope that you will allow this comment to stay posted.
Jeff said...
I will Bro. You were my friend man and you need to get past the NTCC and get over Briggs. You guys just don't see eye to eye so forget about him. You may not have called out his name but he knows who you are. You talk about personal stuff that only someone in his church would know so you can't blame the guy for defending himself either. I don't know exactly what to say man but the fact is you gave Briggs and the NTCC all the ammunition you needed to take you out. This ain't about whether it's right or wrong. You gave a bad impression with your actions and you must face up to that and not totally blame Briggs. Buddy we were friends and I hate to see this and see you in this condition. I feel for you Bro. I blog but the NTCC isn't holding me back with my life but I think it has effectively done that to you.
I'm focused with pointing out the NTCCs treachery. I believe that you are so obsessed with the NTCC that you can't even get on with your life. My life is pretty functional and I could be wrong but I think your life is dysfunctional. If your life is messed up then the best place to start is for you to get the NTCC out of your mind and get focused on other things. I'm no dummy and this blog ain't going to help you with that. Briggs thinks you are totally responsible and I don't agree. I think the NTCC messed you up bad but buddy you have to change it and no one else can. You've got to start by taking responsibility for your actions and recognize that you brought some of this upon yourself. The one thing Pastor Briggs doesn't seem to realize is just how bad the NTCC can mentally mess someone up. I was called to day by someone the NTCC has really messed up. I get calls like that all the time from some messed up people.
The NTCC says they are messed up because they didn't love God and now God is judging them. That is complete gargabe. The NTCC messed them up with all their cult tactics to the degree that they can't even think straight anymore. I hate the NTCC for what it's done to people.
Jeff
Point well taken Jeff. Thanks for your understanding. I still remember that car you had back in the 80's. It was white and it looked like a Monte Carlo. I still think about Lee Taylor from time to time.
Mike said...
Jeff I have to live with my conscience to and I did not say that I wanted to kill blacks and Hispanics on that video. That is an outright lie.
Jeff said...
I didn't say you said that. You never told me you said that. You did say that you made some mention of people from other races and buddy if you didn't mean anything by it you gave a really bad impression. I don't know why you would even bring up other races? On a video? You set yourself up and you need to admit it. No man is more deceived than one who deceives himself. You took the video and you let it get into the wrong hands and as a result you incriminated yourself. Come on man admit it.
You don't think that I ever messed up? All the time but the problem is that if I can't see it then I can't fix. If I can't take responsibility for it then I can get past it. Admit that you screwed up. Probably every man in the whole world does the hanky spanky. Big deal. Just about everybody at some point in time says something about another race that may just be an observation. So what. The problem is you put it on video and let it get into another persons hands. Come on man, it is what it is. That was a blunder and if you were in my church that would concern me also. If for no other reason than some really bad judgment. My friend if you can't see that then there is something wrong in your mind.
Come on man we were friends, listen to what I'm saying.
Jeff
Jeff, you are absolutely 1000% correct. Yes, it was extremely stupid and yes I screwed up. I shouldn't have been fool'in around like that with my cell phone. I can understand how that Robert got the impression that he did. What can I say, "forgive me for being utterly stupid" and making a stupid cell phone video.
For the record I am not racist. My wife of 15 years is Hispanic, the son I helped raise for 15 years is Hispanic, no I didn't do everything, there is fault to be found, but I loved him and her and gave them the prime of my youth.
Bottom line though Jeff, I screwed up, it was stupid, and I shouldn't have been fool'in around like that with my cell phone. Point very well taken. Thank you Jeff and I do appreciate you and the very interesting points you make on this blog.
Meant to say, "I didn't do everything right."
Yeah I do remember that car. It was an Oldsmobile Tornado. Burnt Orange with a vinyl top. Leather interior and spokes. I picked up more folks for church in that car then a bus. It was a bus. I can't stand the NTCC. You were my friend then and you are still my friend now but I've got to be real. You got to get on with your life. Get past your wife, Pastor Briggs, the NTCC and get focused on a good job or something. You know what? Do everything you can to help the needy and your life will be full. That is a lesson that the NTCC greedy (all Christians pay tithe and give in the offering) will probably never learn. They may never know what real Christian giving is all about. It's about loving your neighbor.
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction
The NTCC doesn't know the first thing about true giving because they teach that it's all about paying tithe and giving in the offering.
Maybe that will help Mike.
Jeff
You've helped a lot Jeff, thank you. Once again you've made some brilliant points that are interesting to read. I will try to move on and get on with my life.
Yes I always thought that Oldsmobile Tornado with leather interior was one nice ride!!! What did you ever end up doing with that car? Good night Jeff to you and yours...
I got broadsided and it got wrecked and it went to the great junk yard in the sky.
Jeff
Are you doing ok with money Mike? Are you getting by ok? Let me know. I knew you before you'd spent 25 years in the NTCC. You were a good dude Bro. Everybody liked you. You smiled all time. Sometimes I would think, "Does this dude ever wipe the smile off his face"? "Why is he so happy all the time". "How come I'm not happy all the time"? "Don't I have the joy of the Lord"?
The NTCC messed with all of our minds. You'd get to where you questioned every think you did and nothing was ever enough or good enough. That is where they wanted you. They wanted you to think that you were never doing enough no matter what you did. That way they could work you like a dog while convincing you to give as much of your money as you could possibly give.
Well that ain't what God is all about. That is why he sent Jesus. Salvation does not come by legalism. The reason people are so messed up by the NTCC is because they go decades living with the guilt that some control monger pastor places on them and they think they can't ever do anything right and they get flat out confused and depressed because they feel like everything they do is wrong. That is the NTCC in a nutshell. And the ones who don't feel that way figure out ways to break every NTCC rule in the book and live with themselves at the same time and their conscience gets cooked to the degree that they can't even recognize right from wrong. They become hypocrites and while you are beating yourself in an attempt to barely follow the rules, they do whatever they can justify in their own mind while seeing you as stupid for not thinking on your own. It's a viscous circle and it's the NTCC to the core. the end result is that every NTCCer that manages to justify the NTCCs actions does so by saying, "No church is perfect". That is the mechanism they use to ease their own conscience and that is the final step that I hate.
Jeff
So Jeff,
In reference to the actual blog post, How did you like the Superbowl? I'm glad Green Bay won myself.
Did you have a big party at your house or go somewhere else? What kind of food snacks and drinks did you consume?
I stayed at home, ate popcorn and drank 7 up.
It was a good game, in my opinion.
I stayed at home also. I have a big antenna that I put up behind my house. I pick up Fox sports very well. There was no one here but my family and my little boy watched the game with me. It was wonderful. Me and my little boy watching a football game. Nothing special to eat. Just some snacks from the cabinet. My little boy is wonderful. I enjoy watching the NFL. I like to watch sports. I also watched the World Series. Life is good.
Thanks for asking.
Jeff
Jeff "Tasha DeLay" (please take time to look it up)
Thank you!
Folks... I want you to understand that I and many leaders know there are LEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS in many instances. I have never been arguing from the perspective that there wasn't. I've admitted it as much.
I have however, tried to, maybe at times in a roughneck way, get people to realzie there are two sides to the stories.. and more then any one person will let on.
I stand unique in that I keep no secrets therefore I have nothing to hide. Some things are painful but not deadly. (I hope you understand what that means).
I know that many of you would have "regress" if you would at least talk in a civil dicourse without venom. Say what you will about how hard we preach. Do any one of you actually mean to say that we have not shown kindness?
Even in Don's defense of himself he mentioned that Pastor Davis forgave him, showed him kindness and accpetance. Rev. Barnes did as well. That is telling to me. But that would not have been given had I not pressed the issue either.
I think in many ex-er mind nothing short of the fall of the house of Usher will do. Some have said make such and such changed and we will go away.
But let me tell you a story if you don't mind. Please take time to read it without prejudice to who I am and what organization I am a part of.
When I was in the Army I was a Corporal holding a Squadleaders slot. I had a young e-2 that was fresh out of basic in my platoon come to me with tears in his eyes. We were out on a deployment fighting fires in Yellowstone National Park. This young man had a wife that was pregnant and going through a difficult pregnancy. He got word that his wife was in the hospital and that they were going to request him to come home.
The First Seargant did not like the kid. He had been in some minor trouble before so he just didn't care for him. When he fond out about the wife he started telling him it was all an attempt to get out of being in Yellowstone. He told the kid he was goign to "get him" when they got back. And that he was going to get an Article 15. The kid had done nothing wrong. The First Sgt however was playing with his mind. The kid came to me saying he felt like running away and going AWOL.
I tried to explain to him that there was nothing he had done wrong. Regardless of the past. That the First Sgt was messing with his mind. But the kid just couldnt' beleive me. I thought he did. But he didn't. Two days later he went AWOL and the first sgt had a field day with him.
Moral of the story. There comes a time when you have to stop running in your mind and stand up for yourself. Many of you have done that... great! But if you want respect, acceptance, beleiveablity, or to see changes made so that others won't go through what you did then present it in a way that makes it acceptible.
Now if you just want to see "blood" and "guts" nothing short of that will suffice. I have heard or rather read stories that I identified with. Some made me look at my own pastoral handling of things and I believe I am a better pastor today because of it. But the constant Hate speech is going to get us no where.
I don't want to see people hurt either.
JEFF AGIAN THANK YOU!
Don I do not believe you are the bad guy in the instances you mentioned with the men. But I would like you to be honest as well and admit that there was some fault in You too.
Mike.. believe it or not I pray for you more then you know. And I do hope you are in good health as you say. find peace! And as Jeff said get on with your life.
Me, I am content to go...
Jeff,
The way that you handled that was truly Christlike, above what I've seen in the ntcc. You actually cared enough about someone to not only correct them but to show genuine charity. What you just did earned my respect for what that's worth. NTCC does mess people up really bad and we can choose to stay that way or pick ourselves up and get on with life.
I'm sharing this because, when I left the ntcc, I was worn out and completely cold as ice. I knew I was going to hell and didn't want to do it from the church pew. I left the ntcc with reckless abandon and tried to forget about God. I've never blamed the ntcc completely for this stage of my life but it was a direct result of being worn out by the constant drudgery of following a system of man made rules with promises of blessings that never came.
Not long ago my eyes were opened to what should have been obvious but was hidden from me because of the "work your way to heaven" routine that had made me a robot for so many years. In the last six months, I have found God, Got married to the woman that I have loved for the past 21 years and we are together enjoying every minute of life together. I'm no longer a super spiritual machine that does what the ntcc minister tells me to do out of fear of dying and going to hell or trying to work my way to heaven.
Guess what ntcc'rs. Salvation is not as difficult as you would like it to be. You are not in an exclusive club that is going to help you bypass life and lead you to heaven. In fact, the majority of the rules that you live by are old testament laws and man made rules.
Let's get out our cult handbooks and follow along. Tithe is not found to be mandatory in the New Testament. The wearing of Make-up is not forbidden anywhere in the bible. Most of the policies of the ntcc have nothing to do with Christianity. If Robert Briggs or any other pastor can show us in the bible where policies enforced by the ntcc and discussed on these blogs are biblical, we would not be disputing them right now.
What really makes Christianity real to me right now is what I have seen tonight on this blog and what the ntcc lacks. This is the example that I will follow, not because I worship Jeff or my wife or any other person. Seeing somebody willing to do anything to help another regardless of what anyone thinks or if its conventional is real Christianity. You folks at the ntcc can have your events and conferences. This is real.
Don and Ange
Jeff Collins said...
Are you doing ok with money Mike? Are you getting by ok? Let me know. I knew you before you'd spent 25 years in the NTCC. You were a good dude Bro. Everybody liked you. You smiled all time. Sometimes I would think, "Does this dude ever wipe the smile off his face"? "Why is he so happy all the time". "How come I'm not happy all the time"? "Don't I have the joy of the Lord"?
The NTCC messed with all of our minds. You'd get to where you questioned every think you did and nothing was ever enough or good enough. That is where they wanted you. They wanted you to think that you were never doing enough no matter what you did. That way they could work you like a dog while convincing you to give as much of your money as you could possibly give.
Well that ain't what God is all about. That is why he sent Jesus. Salvation does not come by legalism. The reason people are so messed up by the NTCC is because they go decades living with the guilt that some control monger pastor places on them and they think they can't ever do anything right and they get flat out confused and depressed because they feel like everything they do is wrong. That is the NTCC in a nutshell. And the ones who don't feel that way figure out ways to break every NTCC rule in the book and live with themselves at the same time and their conscience gets cooked to the degree that they can't even recognize right from wrong. They become hypocrites and while you are beating yourself in an attempt to barely follow the rules, they do whatever they can justify in their own mind while seeing you as stupid for not thinking on your own. It's a viscous circle and it's the NTCC to the core. the end result is that every NTCCer that manages to justify the NTCCs actions does so by saying, "No church is perfect". That is the mechanism they use to ease their own conscience and that is the final step that I hate.
I love what you said we had workers like this.
RB said,
"Don I do not believe you are the bad guy in the instances you mentioned with the men. But I would like you to be honest as well and admit that there was some fault in You too."
Don said,
Robert, have you read my story on the X-er blog? I assumed you had but anyway, I have accepted responsibility for my part. The problem is that I've accepted more than my share of responsibility for many years. I have seen kindness in the ntcc at times but to be completely honest with you, I have seen more cruelty and less love over time.
You have admitted that we have legitimate arguments after spending a lot of time with us but you don't approve of the way we present them. Is it alright for ntcc preachers to call people out from behind the pulpit for stupid stuff, embarrassing them and humiliating them, but we are supposed to be meek and gentle when we present our side of the story? We never had an opportunity to disagree when we were in your organization. We didn't have a voice.
Christianity is way more than a whole bunch of rules that keep people in line. It's more than having a bunch of services and paying tithe. I never had a problem with tithe and gave everything I ever earned to ntcc. The ntcc defines holiness as outward works. They have taken the scripture, "Holiness without which no man shall see the Lord" and applied it to outward works instead of what really pleases the Lord and that is what's inside. I know that you'll say that if you are saved, you will have no problem with outward holiness. Perhaps I don't, but most people in the ntcc, wear it as a badge of honor or use it as a litmus test to say if you are going to heaven, you must look like us........
Thanks Jeff, thanks Robert, thanks Don and Ange, thank you everybody, thank you Jesus!!!
Jeff makes very interesting points here and we can continue to have peaceful civil discourse. Robert, I'm doing really good thank you for your prayers.
I hope you and your wonderful family continue to stay blessed. If there is anything I can do for any of you-all please call me or email me!!!
Michael Beal
Don you said
Is it alright for ntcc preachers to call people out from behind the pulpit for stupid stuff, embarrassing them and humiliating them,
NO NO A Thousand Times NO.. it is not ok for us to do this. And I do hope this does not go on anymore... I know there were some that majored in this kind of stuff.. but if you want to know the truth many if nto most of them are gone now... but anyway... I like the way this all is ending up.. there is a type of peace.. adn that works for me.
Good night and May God bless you as you serve Him!
Don and Ange said (Continued)
.....By the way, nice house. Less than 1% of the folks in ntcc lived in houses that nice when I was in the ntcc. You definitely had to be a board member to be that blessed of God. Now that the standards have gone away I guess more of the blessings have emerged.
Back on point: Holiness in the ntcc is mostly a show and a control mechanism. I personally like long hair on a woman and keep mine pretty short. I personally don't care about make up but think women look great with or without it. Jewelry? It's a toss up. And we all know that facial hair on a man has absolutely nothing to do with holiness, it is an ntcc doctrine, straight from the cult handbook under control tactics.
I remember how stuck up everybody was in the ntcc. Don't talk to the poor, or the homeless, or the drunks, or the drug addicts, and there was a reason not to talk to each one. You can't get through to them or they have done something to be in that state. I wish we could go back in time and give every one of them a chance to come to church with the same fervor in which we labored to get people that were capable of paying large amounts of tithe.
The ntcc was a lot of fun at times and I have many good memories. The problem is that the ntcc has different standards for different people. There are two classes of people in the ntcc, rich and poor. The poor are considered unwise with their finances even though they give just about everything they have. The rich soak up all of the blessings that can be extracted out of the poor and then have the audacity to preach at them about stupid stuff like who we date and what we wear and how we spend our time. Never seen Christ do this.
Sorry, if I got carried away but right is right and wrong is wrong. Many folks will be surprised what side of judgement they will be on. You do not have to walk on eggshells to be a Christian. There is also a difference between name calling and constructive criticism, but don't worry, If there is one useful thing that the ntcc has taught me is to have a thick skin. I'm also good at dishing it out.
Don and Ange
Mr. Briggs,
I'm Man enough to recognize Greatness when I see it!
I commend you for your service to God and Country.
You bring up good points and I have been too headstrong without considering all points of views, so thanks for the clarifications.
Your really smart enough to leave, I mean seriously leave NTCC and start your own organization, I see the talent in you to do it, or you can use your talents to reform NTCC to acceptable standards.
I think it is easy for one to get carried away unleashing torrents of pent up emotion due to wrongdoings of an organization.
Im taking a break from this blog, I think I have stated all I need to state. To regress is not the answer, but to PROGRESS!
Dont take things so personally and I think you'll turn out OK regardless if you stay in NTCC or not.
Your an Alpha Male like I am so you can see the propensity to clash. It is who we are, we testostorone driven Males!!
Realize that multiple wrongs have occured in this organization by MULTIPLE NTCC preachers, past and present to folks who have spent years in the Org. and justice has not been met, henceforth the hate of NTCC and demands of vindication.
I still demand an official apology from the Head Leadership and will not relent until I get it. NTCC owes me that much, I gave away THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to NTCC, they owe me that much as well.
I have no gripes with you, Mr. Briggs, I will say for the Record That I respect your call for God.
We endeavor to serve the same God, we are just on different teams! We used to be on the same team, I just happen to be CUT by your team!!
Bro Johnson
RB said...
most of them are gone now...
Jeff said...
Of course I wouldn't know who's gone and who's not but I can think of some who I think are still with the NTCC (as far as I know). Ramirez. Highly abusive, Medrano, Snyder, Oberhauser, RWD, Dorsey, Wright, all the overseers, Mayers, I've listened to Hunt go berserk, Barnes. Olson is a different kind of abusive. He is like the paid henchman. If RWD says run someone off he is going to do it. Ashmore can be horrible. Sir, you've still got a lot. I've personally witnessed what many of these guys are capable of. Let LD Jonnes get in the zone and watch what he does. You better not disagree with himm before he preaches, I'll tell you that much. He'll slip a few good digs in on you and that is for sure.
There are still a lot of abusive folks in the NTCC. Too many of them think they are supposed to be in "CONTROL" of everyone. Providing someone guidance, (that may be right or wrong because too often the guidance is wrong) and controlling them is two totally different things. NTCC pastors have gotten this whole obedience business and let it get way out of control. Too many of them take it personal when you don't follow exactly what they say and they let you have it the first chance that they can get behind the pulpit.
That is how they operate. You know it as well as anyone.
Jeff
Don said that there are two classes in the NTCC, the rich and the poor.
I agree with the two classes part but not necessarily the rich and the poor part even though it's applicable.
There are two classes of people who are part of the NTCC. The first class is the (Davis family, Ahomore family, Johnson family and maybe just a few other families). The second class is everyone else. Those are the two classes. All the organization money is under the control of the first class and the first class gets a hugh chunk of the second classes money and never the other way around. It's called nepotism. LOOK IT UP. It's also called a pyramid scheme but it's not a very tall pyramid. The first class takes big chunks of the money and they start business with it so they can make more money while claiming that they wealth didn't come from the church. This is a technicality that they use and the unwise NTCCers buy off on it. The NTCC IS A BUSINESS PEOPLE. STOP BEING STUPID. THE CHURCH IS JUST A FRONT. GOOD GOD, WAKE UP.
Jeff
Bro. Johnson said,
"I still demand an official apology from the Head Leadership and will not relent until I get it. NTCC owes me that much, I gave away THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to NTCC, they owe me that much as well."
Don and Ange said,
I doubt that you will ever get an apology because it is not in the ntcc's nature to apologize or admit wrong doing. Robert showed that he has a human side and can be a pretty decent person at times and we also have toned things down a bit for the sake of peace. I think that His willingness to come into this environment, that can be pretty hostile at times, speaks for itself.
We demand much in return for what we have lost and very little is ever admitted of any wrong doing by the borg. Robert has at least admitted that we have legitimate points of view and probably will be shunned by his leadership for his honesty. I do not think that I need to admit anything else to you or anyone else, however, I have been very honest about my role in this particular ntcc scandal. As I have said and will continue to say, God knows what happened, I know what happened and when something is under the blood, we don't have to be reminded of it over and over. True repentance invites forgiveness and replaces guilt with freedom.
Saying all this, I still think that overall the ntcc is a destructive cult. Does that mean that all preachers in the ntcc are wicked and evil? No, I believe there are some that are actually saved, but severely misled by the ntcc leadership that has changed the rules to suit the times without regard to the people they have hurt in the past.
I also agree with Jeff in the assessment of not wanting to send one soul to Graham, Washington. If Robert or any pastor in the ntcc does care about souls and loves them, the worst thing they could do is send their new converts to the ntcc cult indoctrination cemetery, I mean seminary. If there ever was a group of arrogant folks that teach perfection in others but do not bear the fruits of Christianity, its that bunch in Graham.
Don and Ange
So if we have so few in attendence why do you worry? Your winning... just screaming about what is "wrong" all the time brings more changes which makes us get bigger... your best course of action is let things be as they are and we would emplode.... right?
So really... by having this stuff going on.. you just make use "reflect" more and "change more" which will help us to "reach more"... man, thinking about it that way I just have to say "THANK YOU FOR BEING OUR FRIEND
Oh My Gosh folks! Briggs has just admitted that there has been Changes going on inside ntcc. Something that not even your "fearless" leader will do. Mike K. WILL not say there has been any changes going on. Which is a LIE! So full of pride is my guess. Why he can not acknowledge to the public that ntcc has changed or in your founders words, ntcc is full of COMPROMISE!
And if there is these changes going on. Why wouldn't ntcc change the most important part of there "ministry". Make there Bible school accredited ministers???? Mr. Briggs is NOT a minister. Only in his own mind. He is not accredited,he is not seen as a minister by no one but ntcc and in his own head! Since leaving ntcc I have met a few of these self made ministers. Set it up in there home,which folks in ntcc have done(oceanside,CA) have services in there home.
So what is it briggs has ntcc changed or has it not changed. I know for myself. I do not come on this blog to see ntcc change. It was to expose them for the lie that Mike is trying to portray as the truth. That ntcc has always been so mainstream as it is right now!!!!!! Why will Mike NOT acknowledge that ntcc has changed? My opinion is if he acknowledged that ntcc has changed. He would have to explain what was wrong with the old ways in the first place. And he can't do that. Because if he did,it would show how ntcc twist scriptures and so called policies that were SINS in times past. It would show the world as we do. That ntcc has cult controlling tactics,which do still go on right now! (mike trying to control folks FB friends).
It all goes back to the leaders of ntcc. NOT the peon ministers in ntcc. The bucks stops with Mike K. Not with Briggs. Who has no say so in the running of ntcc. Because that "church" that briggs is running is NOT his church. It is Ntcc "church".
April
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