Boy am I a dirty rotten sinner; I watched the Superbowl. Well I figured that if Pastor Kekel's son was allowed to play football throughout high school, there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with me watching the Superbowl. Do you think? Is it a sin to watch it but not a sin to play it? While I was in the NTCC I was taught that it was all a sin, but thanks to the Kekels, I was able to mature spiritually and discern right from wrong all by myself. Because the way I figure it, if it's ok to play football, it's ok to watch it. It was a great Superbowl. I hope none of you NTCCers missed it.
Oh I almost forgot. You guys had church tonight. Even though it's not a sin to watch the Superbowl it would be a sin to miss your 5th service of the week and God forbid the NTCC doesn't got that last weekly offering. I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to start a church and have 7 services a week, (one every day) and if someone misses a service, I'll preach: "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is", and then that way, I can get two extra offerings. Ha, ha. I'll just make sure I don't hold service on Sunday evening so I don't miss too many games during football season. Hey why not? If it's good enough for Pastor Kekel's son, it's good enough for me.
Jeff
225 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 225 of 225Along the lines of not sending folks to WA for there so called bible school.
Here is one of those TRUE stories.
I first got involved with ntcc was in Oceanside,CA. Under Mederano. I have since heard he has become the minister ntcc approves of(pushy,controlling) BUT when I was in Oceanside. He was not that way. It was his second work. If I remember correctly,it was his first work to be a "pastor". I can say,I enjoyed church for the most part.
WE had servicemen home BBQ's,with volleyball,softball and pick up basketball games. Soon after it was Taken away!
Church was enjoyable THEN!
Hubby gets the so called calling to preach. So we head to WA. Soon as we get there. The RULES start up. Get permission to stay with friends of ours until we got a place of our own. Instead of the hotel.
Then get permission to ride with those same friends to church. Imagin that,get permission to ride in a vechile with other adults!!!
Next your told it is REQUIRED to attend church. Once your in classes,Your REQUIRED to read your Bible. If you not praying and talking about Jesus then something must be wrong with your walk with God. or as I call it now,my relationship with God!!! This was also before rw davis opened it up to the town folks to attend. So he was all about bashing women,bashing women,bashing women. Got to keep the women in there place!
You start school and Orientation. Which is all about rules,rules and more rules. Not rules that are about going to school,attending classes. Like Most colleges. It is rules on your own personal life. getting permission,plahying card games,the length of your SHIRT,how long a mans hair is to be,women were not allowed to wear denium,ect.
Once folks leave WA and get away from ALL of that control. Of course they do not want to go back. At all cost I can remember thinking there is NO way that we could go back to Washington. who wants to go back where you have to call and ask for permission to LIVE your own adult life!!
April
April... without turning this thread into a 300 counter let me say this. I do not know all of what Rev. Kekel has or has not admitted to. But changes are obvious to anyone familiar with our organization past and present. The changes speak for themselves and as far as I can tell, need no one to point them out. Why would you need a "verbal" record when you have the evidence in front of you.
As a group grows there comes a time when it must "change". I think that was the point have us all reading "Who moved my cheese" wasn't it? Changes were in the works way back then and were already underway... now they are becoming more visible.
I know some of the complaints have been heard, considered and addressed. So you all should feel glad (and I say this sincerely).
As for wether or not I am a legitimate minister let me point out that I have been legally allowed to perform weddings in 4 different states and one foreign country which is something only licensed/ordained ministers can do.
The accreditation of a learning institution has nothing to do with the validity of the degree the students earn, but EVERYthing to do with the award and acceptance of Federal funding. To Accredit the school to this means we have to allow EOP standards meaning (Homosexual teachers) because for accreditation and funding you have to give equal opportunity employment. That we won't do.
But the federal, state, and local governments recognize our licensing as "legitimate" when they allow us to marry people in their jurisdictions making a legally binding union dissolvable ONLY by a court of law.
Anyway! I APPRECIATE your words Jeff, SFC Johnson, Don and you too Mike. I think we have... at least for now... obtained a level of civility. I can tell you though in full honesty if you can keep the tone civil but direct you will get more results.
And SFC Johnson, if Hanna did what you say and I have no reason to doubt it... on behalf of the organization that I also represent WE ARE SORRY.... I go to great pains here I know to never over tax the people.
I got the idea from a Luis L'Amour story where a he said:
Some cowboys would warm the bit of their bridles up before they would put them in the horses mouth because they loved and respected them so much.
Anyway! I am leaving now. I am always open to discussion. No, I do not feel myself a marked man..
If anyone wants to they can email me at
pastor@ntccpasadenatx.org
Again thank you for the recent civility of the discussion and the respects you have given.
Tasha DeLay
RB said...
The changes speak for themselves and as far as I can tell, need no one to point them out. Why would you need a "verbal" record when you have the evidence in front of you.
Jeff said...
What the man said is true. We all know that changes have taken place. If current NTCCers don't have any problem with practicing what once would put them in hell (according to previous NTCC standards) that is up to them. Even if Pastor Kekel came out and said, yeah we've changed (which really he has already on his blog) it wouldn't matter to some folks at all.
Jeff
Pastor Briggs said...
And SFC Johnson, if Hanna did what you say and I have no reason to doubt it... on behalf of the organization that I also represent WE ARE SORRY....
Jeff said...
I can appreciate that. I've said tens of times that Pastor Briggs and I don't often agree. No matter how you look at it the guy is more real than his counter parts. How many other NTCC ministers have you seen openly appologise to anyone who's left the NTCC? The BIG FAT 0! NONE. I don't always agree with Pastor Briggs but I respect him. That is my story and I'm sticking to it. He is not insecure unlike a whole bunch of his fellow pastors.
The man stick up for himself and I can respect that. He is alright with me.
Jeff
I have to step out of silence once more.
Most mainline Christian universities have a great deal of rules. The particular college I attend you cannot attend dances, have to attend every service, you have to wear your hair a certain way, and their are special rules concerning the opposite sex.
The school does receive federal funding and is accredited;however in order to work/attend there you have to share some core beliefs with the founder. I guarantee the founder's son would burn the school down if they had to hire teachers that do not accept those core beliefs.
The reason I attend this school is to get my degree in chaplaincy so I can work with women and children in crises. It doesn't make me better than anyone else, but is my sincere calling.
With that being said, it really pains me when folks bash "unaccredited preachers". The US gov't has made a special provision for them. Read up on the laws and regs if you get a chance. I could understand it if it was a diploma mill Rev. who was looking to make money by marrying people(which is against the law in some states). Someone that has volunteered 20 years in the mission field in Africa is just as much a Rev. as someone who has a Doctorate of Theology. Calling,endorsement, and common sense have alot to do with being a success in the ministry, not some accrediting agency. Jesus Christ is the ultimate accreditation anyways.
1 Timothy 4:14 and some other scriptures are helpful in understanding this precept.
ns
ns said...
The particular college I attend you cannot attend dances, have to attend every service, you have to wear your hair a certain way, and their are special rules concerning the opposite sex.
The school does receive federal funding and is accredited;however in order to work/attend there you have to share some core beliefs with the founder. I guarantee the founder's son would burn the school down if they had to hire teachers that do not accept those core beliefs.
The reason I attend this school is to get my degree in chaplaincy so I can work with women and children in crises. It doesn't make me better than anyone else, but is my sincere calling.
Jeff said...
I hear you ns but if my estimation is correct, and you are kind of taking up for the NTCC seminary system, there are a few things you should consider. The first one is the disclaimer found at the bottom of an NTCC transcript. It says that their transcript is worth nothing if you don't remain a part of "THEIR" church. I have one of their transcripts that was faxed to me so I know what it says. In fact it's worse then that. It's basically an entrapment statement. To put it plainly it's saying that you've completely wasted 3 or 4 years of your life attending an utterly worthless seminary if you ever decide to leave the NTCC. Here is the disclaimer.
"Due to our intent to train disciples strictly for church ministry within our churches, we do not offer nor purport to offer any training which could be construed in any way by a participant therein as preparatory for any occupation, secular or otherwise, or for any advancement within another institution, religious or otherwise, outside of the New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. Neither does this institution offer nor purport to offer a degree of any other credentials qualifying participants for any position or occupation outside of our churches."
Not only that ns, as a woman you are not going to the NTCC seminary with the hope of ever being any kind of Chaplain and or work in any kind of official job/position. Why? Because you are a woman. The NTCC seminary is essentially useless unless you plan to die in the NTCC and for a woman it's completely useless altogether.
The school you go to may have rules but I'll bet you don't have to ask permission for someone to come to your child's birthday party or stay over night at your house. If those rules do exist at your college, it's a cult just like the NTCC. I'll also bet that the women who attend your college aren't going to clean the house of the founders son that you referenced. If they are doing it, it's a cult that uses people just like the NTCC. If I'm going to spend four years in college, I'm going to get something real out of it, not just some bogus transcript which says that it's useless if you ever leave the church that it came from. If that is the case it's a cult college.
Christ isn't about one organization or one denomination. Christ can't be confined to such parameters and that is what the NTCCs done with their non-accredited seminary. You couldn't get a job flipping burgers at Micky Ds with an NTCC transcript because it says right on it that it's useless outside of the NTCC.
I don't have a problem with bashing anyone who isn't truly qualified by virtue of a legitimate accredited curriculum that is recognized by "ALL" or at least most institutions. The NTCC non-accredited school isn't recognized by any other institution other then their own. A huge percentage of abusive NTCC ministers which exists is proof of what their non-accredited school will get you. In many cases deceived.
Well you see I had to step out one more time also. I'm not bashing all ministers who've attended non-accredited schools, but if they are messed up, (like many in the NTCC) I'll bash them just like they bash their congregation every time they get the notion.
Jeff
"Christ isn't about one organization or one denomination"
You are right Jeff, its not. However, when folks go off on "unaccredited preachers" it comes off as sounding snobbish towards all of them.
when you go off on Christian colleges having rules it comes off as going off on all of them.
I have never seen this heard clarified on the blog.
Jeff if you want to blog about ntcc go ahead,its a free country. Some of the things that are said on the blog do put down certain members in the body of Christ. Somethings before things are written a whole perspective has to be taken in.
Then there are times where its like, is this just about ntcc or a population of Christians that hold a belief system. This is what I was trying to point out.
ns
Mr. Briggs,
Thanks for your sincerity, just understand until I hear it from Mr. Kekel, it is like seeing the promised land, but not being able to set foot in it!
But, again, your condolences are much appreciated!
Sincerely,
Bro Johnson
Jeff may not like what you have to say in or out, but at least he tries to keep it civil. Granted although we both do not attend ntcc, but we both carry different schools of thought.
It can be the wild west of blogging sometimes. I thought I saw a chair flying across the blog the other day lol!
Peace, mercy...prayerfully
ns
ns said...
When you go off on Christian colleges having rules it comes off as going off on all of them.
Jeff said...
If the rules are so extreme that they can be classified as ones you'd typically find belonging to a controlling brainwashing cult, then yes we are going off on each and every one of those Colleges which fall in that category. I'm not saying your College falls in that category but if it does, then I wouldn't think any more of it than I do the NTCS.
The NTCS isn't the only manipulative controlling cult seminary out there. I've never said that it was. For all those that fall in the same category, if the shoe fits, it is what it is. I have a copy of the 2006 NTCS Student Handbook. It says this about Mail and Correspondence:
"Seminary students living in the dormitories are required to use P.O. Box 930 Graham, WA 98338 as their mailing address. Dorm students nay not maintain mailboxes on 210th St. E. In addition, each dorm student will be assigned a personal mailbox at the seminary office."
What in the world? That has cult written all over it. There is only one reason that the NTCS leadership would make that mandate. They wanted to know of each and every person who attempted to make contact with one of their students. They wanted to censor the mail. They wanted to know who was writing you. Snyder used to confiscate and open some of the mail which was sent to the serviceman's home in Columbus GA. That is what was reported to me. They want to know if your family is constantly writing you. They see that as a threat that could pull you away from their church and they will use it against you. I don't know if the NTCS still has this policy but in 2006 they wanted to control the mail. That is a cult tactic all the way.
That is something a communist country would do; Censor all communications. A cult is a cult and if someone elses Christian college falls in that category than I don't expect anyone to make any apologies for it.
Jeff
Thanks ns. Hey just so everyone understands me; the main purpose for this blog is to warn others about the dangers, (which are many) surrounding the New Testament Christian Church. This blog isn't about me, Tracy, April, Pastor Briggs, Bro Johnson, Don and Ange, Greg or any other singular individual. It's about the dangers of being involved with the NTCC. Our individual accounts testify of those dangers but this blog isn't about any one particular individual. When these posts become focused on me or April or Tracy for example, they become counter productive to the overall intent of this blog.
The reason I'm saying all this is because I've deleted various posts which I believe will detract from the overall purpose of this blog. I also deleted some of my own which I also believe were counterproductive, so don't think I haven't included myself in this category. This blog is working and I see the benefits of it's existence. Certain posts do not strengthen our cause here. They weaken us. This blog ain't going away but having said that, I'd rather not have it at all then allow it to become counter productive.
I appreciate some of the kind words and I don't mind being told the opposite, but this blog isn't about me. I just manage it and add threads to it because someone has to.
Jeff
Jeff,
I know you are just trying to be humble when you say this blog is not about you.
Come on man... This blog is all about you and your experience with NTCC, in addition to the stories of others. This blog reveals the Real Story about NTCC and without you and your work on this blog, the Real Story would not be known.
You are the DA MAN! and this Blog is DA BOMB!
Its only a matter of time before NTCC crumbles at your feet and every NTCC leader is made to beg your forgiveness and mercy.
Just like the Superbowl, only one team can win and this is the Superbowl of Eternity right here.
Don't sell yourself short Jeff, You have singlehandedly changed countless lives with this blog alone.
That sounds good and all but sincerely; without all the people who post here this blog would be useless. Just imagine me being the only one to post comments. That would get old real quick. There must be involvement from other people which there certainly has been. Many other people. That is really the way I see it. I get most of my ideas for new threads from other people. Someone else will write something which I think will draw people's attention and I try to capitalize on it. Thanks but that is really the way I feel. I'd like to see more people post comments and specifically more NTCC people like Pastor Briggs. It make for good reading and it draws more people's interest.
Jeff
ns said,
"You are right Jeff, its not. However, when folks go off on "unaccredited preachers" it comes off as sounding snobbish towards all of them."
Don and Ange said,
What does it sound like when unaccredited preachers from the ntcc go off on us? Maybe a tad bit snobbish? Not quite sure why people stick up for unaccredited preachers from the ntcc. They really don't need anyone to stick up for them nor do they think any higher of you for sticking up for them. You can't earn any brownie points with this bunch. If you tried to crawl back to them, they would still treat you the same way as they did before you left.
The ntcc is not a normal church. There are reasons why after you give years of your life to them by attending their seminary that you get nothing in return. You get a piece of paper to put in your wallet that means nothing to anyone except them. And then that piece of worthless paper expires every year or two so they can re-evaluate you to see if you are worthy to continue leading your sect of cult members. If you are a woman, you are really wasting your time going to the ntcc seminary. When you leave the ntcc all of your education is worthless and you have nothing to fall back on. You can possibly say that you have experience dusting Tanya Kekels house and cleaning out her toilets if you were lucky enough to land that gig.
The corrupt organization called the ntcc is nothing more than an abusive, destructive, brainwashing cult; plain and simple.
If you think they really care about you just take a look at the Shunks. Close to 50 years of combined service to God as missionaries, ordained, and they wouldn't even renew their unaccredited credentials. They hadn't committed any sins against the ntcc. They were trashed by kekel for what? When they have nothing credible to accuse people of they say it's pride. They were too proud to come crawling back. I think the ntcc is too proud to admit they are wrong, and this makes them a textbook cult. Of course when Rick Bloomenthal left all kinds of rules were broken and RWD cried and wanted to make exceptions to policies to get him back, but Deborah Shunk was a woman that did nothing wrong and RWD and his slackies cared nothing about winning her and Gregory back.
I can't understand why ns and others stick up for these corrupt cult leaders. It's plain to see as the nose on your face that there is something drastically wrong here.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange,
You totally missed my point.
I understood your point ns. I also understood Don and Ange. Sometimes we have to look for a medium. Not all Christian colleges are bad but the NTCS is and the fact that it's non-accredited doesn't help. If you don't remain in the NTCC the NTCS is useless. I can think of better ways to spend my time and money. Iat least if it was accredited and you left the NTCC is would be worth something.
Anonymous said,
"Don and Ange,
You totally missed my point."
Don and Ange said,
ns said:
"However, when folks go off on "unaccredited preachers" it comes off as sounding snobbish towards all of them."
We replied,
"What does it sound like when unaccredited preachers from the ntcc go off on us? Maybe a tad bit snobbish? Not quite sure why people stick up for unaccredited preachers from the ntcc."
What point did we miss? Perhaps that all ntcc ministers are not snobbish. I sat under 14 different ministers and all of them had the same school of thought that they learned from RWD. They talked down to folks and felt good about it. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but if we missed the point than please enlighten us. I've never seen anyone crawl back to the ntcc and receive forgiveness; nor are they welcomed back with open arms. People that I've seen try to come back to the ntcc did not have prodigal son moments, but they got their fields plowed and left for good. I say good for them. They are no longer cult members. We are no longer cult members and I don't believe that you are either.
Some folks still believe that the ntcc is a Christian organization that loves people and loves souls. I understand that point of view but when you look a little deeper into what they do and what they teach in their seminary you will find they are a textbook cult.
The ntcc uses mind control tactics to brainwash people into staying and paying. We have pointed out many policies of the ntcc that are not biblical but controlling and abusive. We have always challenged folks to come on these blogs and explain their positions and nobody from the ntcc has risen to the challenge. At least Rev. Briggs has the intestinal fortitude to admit that many of these policies are and were wrong and defend his own positions.
Many folks will not defend their own positions because they are indefensible. We are very sensible people and if you explain your position and make a reasonable amount of sense we will acknowledge that. We would however like to thank you for your contribution to this blog. Not many folks come out in this forum with a dissenting point of view.
Don and Ange
Anonymous said,
"I understood your point ns. I also understood Don and Ange. Sometimes we have to look for a medium."
Don and Ange said,
I agree with you to some degree on this but would like to remind folks that there is no medium with the ntcc. There is no middle ground. There is no room for arguments or conflicting points of view. You are either for them or against them and that's what classifies them as a cult.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange have a point. The NTCC is however starting to find a little middle ground but that is to reduce the number of people who are defecting and their bad reputation. Their attempt to find middle ground is also designed change the publics poor perception of their cult. The fact is, if it weren't for all the bad publicity I have no reason to believe that the NTCC would have changed at all other then the impending changes that revolved around the Kinsons and the Kekels.
Grant's existance brought about a lot of changes and Phil Kinson was all for it which is one of the main reasons that he wound up in Graham. He was a distinct part of Mike Kekel's agenda. Kekel wanted a pastor around who had Kekel's same mindset. The house of prayer called it compromise and the NTCC called it change. DVDs, sports, secular college involvement, vacations, etc.
Jeff
I think Jeff gets what I am saying.
I am talking about a group of people in the body of Christ that is frequently looked down upon, and yes that might include ntcc preachers. I would be pretty upset if I worked 9 years on the mission field and someone called me "unaccredited". I'm sorry it does not make sense to you. I talk better than I type.
D&A we are just not going to see eye to eye on this.
ns
I hear you ns and understand you. I'm not saying that they are unsaved, but what we are saying is that they are part of a cult that does not have an accredited bible school. It's not their fault other than they have chose to stay. When they leave, they will not be recognized by the rest of the world to have a credible ministers license even though, I would say there are some that are very qualified to minister to folks. I'm not talking about the majority of ntcc preachers that teach unbiblical policies as gospel.
I personally believe that there are many good people in the ntcc and that includes some that are in the ministry. I do think that they are brainwashed by the ntcc leadership. What the ntcc leadership does to people is harmful and should not be downplayed. When you manipulate folks for financial gain and mess with their eternal soul, there is much to be answered for. This is why we warn folks. If we thought that there was no danger in what the ntcc does, we would not waste our time. We have seen and also have first hand testimony on how abusive and destructive the ntcc can be.
Don and Ange
I understand what you are saying ns. Just because a minister attended a unaccredited seminary doesn't mean he or she is bad or wrong or unlearned. I would however stay away from any unaccredited seminary if it was worthless outside the organization that the seminary was a part of. That is a big chance to take and I'm glad I dodged it.
Like I said before, on the NTCS transcript there is a disclaimer that I've quoted previously which clearly states that it is worthless outside the NTCC. The NTCC wants control of you and that is a good way to start. It can't be easy to leave the NTCC knowing that all the years spent at the NTCS will have been a complete, thorough, and absolute waste of time. That is a tough pill to swallow. The NTCC wants it's school to remain unaccredited and it's not because of the reasons they give. The NTCC leadership does not want to be accountable to anyone and they also do not want their people to get a real degree that can be legitimately used anywhere else. If NTCC people had a real degree, more folks would leave the NTCC then the number who are currently departing.
Here is the bottom line with me. Knowing what I know now, attending an unaccredited school is not even an option. There is not one unaccredited seminary that has the perfect formula for the proper instruction and interpretation of Gods word. There is no way that would ever be the case. In fact I'm sure there is no accredited seminary which does either. So with that being the case, why not get the most bang for your buck and get a diploma/degree that is legitimately worth something outside of the church that it came from.
I'm not interested in an unaccredited seminary. There is no way I can believe that there is one perfect seminary out there, and it just so happens to be unaccredited, and it's the only one that God approves of. If that is the case then I better have more then just a "good feeling" from God before I attend. Maybe something like a burning bush or a rug that is dry when everything else around it is damp from the morning dew, or maybe the river will part right in front of the unaccredited seminary. It will certainly take more then an approval from Pastor Kekel for me to attend an unaccredited seminary. I'm not interested in wasting four years of my life toward a transcript that is not worth as much as one good square of toilet paper. An NTCS transcript would hurt my butt.
Jeff
The ntcc leadership love to encourage the idea that God is up in the sky with a lightning bolt ready to strike you down to hell for all eternity for speaking about anyone or anything ntcc.
Rb loves to think this is true too.
But one thing is very true.
The ABUSER always blames the ABUSED.
And people who spend years and years lying to themselves and others, will only be able to overcome this by years of therapy.
Jeff and D&A okay. I just wanted to speak on the behalf of my friends that some would considered to be unlearned( for instance my friends that attend an unaccredited bible school near Upstate NY).
Nb, Not sure what you mean. I think I have said my pieces,bits and observations etc. Alot of things now I am not fit or knowledgeable enough to comment on. I'm a glass half-full person(most of the time). If that makes me in need of therapy I'll call up one of my psych professors. I do disagree with some of the methodology displayed here. I know I'm not the only one who does that no longer attends ntcc. It doesn't mean I'm scairt of anyone. I don't insult anyone's intellect who feels differently. I feel pretty whole... today(its been rough). If you feel or perceive differently, I can't hold that against you. Not afraid lightening bolts or anything like that, rain and snow bothers me though.
My Dad always told me if you are afraid of a man you don't fear God.(or insert you are not being true to yourself if you fear man.)
I've already suffered my worst so far this year, doom and gloom doesn't scare me.
In other words,sometimes when things are said on the blog, it may take on a shotgun effect. You aim at one target, but end up hitting others also(body of believers.) this is what I was calling attention to. Its like when folks get carried away with telling certain dumb blonde jokes around my children. I know they mean no bad intention, but sometimes my kids think adults are subvertly talking mean about their Dad.(they are not, they are usually making a joke about themselves.)
Hey what does this have to do with the super bowl anyways...Go Cowboys.
have a good year everyone...
ns
ns said,
"Hey what does this have to do with the super bowl anyways...Go Cowboys."
Don and Ange said,
Wow, almost forgot. Was this thread supposed to be about the superbowl? Have to say that the Greenbay Packers achieved something that the Cowboys weren't very successful at this year; that is winning in Dallas. Not picking on you; my team the Denver Broncos won very few games anywhere this year. Wish we could go back in time to the days of Elway.
I guess we are of the opinion that folks in the ntcc have thick skin and that they are able to handle it. I think most of what we say can be filed under the "If the shoe fit's, by all means put it on and wear it" category that is used by so many ntcc preachers. I don't know of any ntcc preachers that are going to read this or other blogs and get their feelings hurt.
I was always told if a cat didn't like the way it was being rubbed it could turn around. We just never had the luxury of correcting ntcc pastors or standing up for ourselves. This was unheard of in the ntcc.
Maybe now in the new and improved ntcc folks are allowed to have an opinion and express their individuality. Saying all this we know that you are not the only one that thinks we shouldn't speak out against the ntcc as a group, and we acknowledge that while there are some in the ntcc that might have a good heart we are from the school of thought that there are not any good biscuits in the bottom of the slop bucket. This is what we were taught about all other groups outside of the ntcc by every minister we ever sat under. Funny thing is that I don't ever remember any accredited ministers teaching this doctrine.
Don and Ange
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