RWD is interested in keeping one type of person around his organization. Look at the guy to the left and there you have it. This explains why RWD has no problem getting rid of old timers. He likes young new fresh recruits which will say, "YES SIR" to his every whim. The most important thing to RWD is having the ability to control people. RWD expects you to allow him to talk to you any way he wants, direct you to do what ever he wants, and he expects you to follow his directives without question. This explains why so many old timers leave the NTCC. Once they get smart to his ways, they start to question RWD and he can't stand that and he won't allow it for long. He is insecure in that regard. It's a game that RWD plays. He will hit you with a directive that he knows you don't want to perform and he's already prepaired to deal with you in certain way when you don't.
He is either going to call you out directly to your face or he will blast you the first chance that he can get from behind the pulpit while you're sitting in the congregation. When RWD has decided that he no longer has use for you, he's already devised a multitude of ways to effectively run you off without actually telling you that you must leave his church. In doing so, he can save face while proudly proclaiming, "Brother or Sister so and so left the church because they no longer loved or wanted to serve God."
You see, RWD is a control monger freak!!! Being in control of people is more important to him than anything. You can be a dud but if you let RWD control you, RWD has no problem with you sticking around. You can commit adultery and RWD can let you have it but as long as you say, "YES SIR", RWD has no problem with you sticking around. You can beat children, leave your wife and find a new one, be a useless pastor (according to NTCC standards), get accused of committing every kind of abuse imaginable, run off church members one right after another and still hang around the NTCC as long as you say to RWD, "YES SIR".
The minute you don't agree with one of RWD's stupid directives is the minute that he'll figure out a way to put the screws to you. He'll wrench down the vice on you so tight that you won't be sticking around much longer if you are any kind of man or woman. I've said this in the last couple threads. He doesn't care about your soul one single bit. RWD is smart enough to know when he is driving someone away from his church, so if he really cared, he wouldn't do it, but he doesn't care!!! If he did care he'd back off you long enough for you to rethink the situation but that is not what he wants. He wants control and nothing less. He figures if he can dog you to your face or directly from across the pulpit and you still stick around, then he has you where he wants you; right under his thumb. What he is doing is what the NTCC calls an "obedience check", and Mayers used to brag about doing it to his wife.
When RWD doesn't think he needs or wants you around any longer, you are getting ready to get dogged, and if you can live with being dogged out, than RWD can live with you sticking around "HIS" organization. It's like RWD said in conference: "I was here first and if you don't like it there's the door". RWD doesn't care if you stay or go, but you better allow him to control you as long as you are in his presents. With the NTCC leadership, it's just a big psychological game. Deliberately say something stupid to someone and as soon as they get mad, tell them they need to "pray through" while making them out to be the bad guy. Mayers said that he would wake up his wife in the middle of the night around 3am just to see if she'd get up to fix him a cup of coffee. He called it an "obedience check". NTCC pastors would tell racist jokes around black people just to see if someone would get offended and then the pastor would say, "Whoso loveth the law of the Lord, nothing shall offend them".
It's just a big psychological game and RWD is the master who's taught his pastors every psychological trick in the book. These are cult tactics that cult leaders use to gain control of their people. The main objective of a cult leader is to BREAK YOUR WILL. BREAK YOUR WILL. BREAK YOUR WILL. That is what the NTCC is doing with all these stupid obedience checks. You will either let RWD break your will or RWD will run you off, plain and simple. He is a control freaky deak. He is the big freak nasty control freak. I know what I'm talking about and that is why he doesn't want women to work on a job and that is a whole different topic but it deals with the same thing. Control, control, control, freak, freak, freak. That is what the NTCS is all about. BREAK YOUR WILL. Wayne Cantrell called it a boot camp.
Jeff
183 comments:
You said it, Jeff! To date this is perhaps the best summary of what it's all about in ntcc and how rdub runs HIS show. I doubt kekel is really in control right now. If rdub has his faculties about him, he is only giving kekel a long rope to hang himself with. Even family means nothing to rdub. Just ask Carl Sensabaugh. Lived in the Lodge and spent countless hours around the davises and never heard them mention Carl. What a pathetic lot. Guess rodger couldn't control him so he had to go... The only thing a narcissist cares about is himself.
By the way, have you talked with Wayne Cantrell recently?
No I haven't. It's unlikely I ever will again. The NTCC has that dude hook like and sinker. He is a good and a nice guy but he is about as brainwashed as anyone I've ever known in the NTCC. The last time we talked (which was while I was still with the NTCC), Wayne basically worshiped the ground that Olson (of all people) walked on.
Olson never did it for me even while I was with the NTCC. Olson is also a horrible orator, (not that being a good orator is what Christianity is all about). Olson couldn't keep the attention of a flee if he had hair all over his back. I don't know but for some reason Wayne thought very highly of Olson. Not me. I don't think very highly of a pawn dangling from a leash. I've got more respect for RWD. At least he does his own bidding.
Jeff
Yeah, I like Wayne too. And Peggy (B.) Cantrell. If I am not mistaken they are both on their second ntcc marriages. I'm not saying this to be mean. I just think it's important to show people how often ntcc breaks up marriages and expects a person to stay in ntcc and remarry ONLY BECAUSE THEIR SPOUSE LEFT THE ntcc. WHooo . . . Talk about cult-induced adultery!
Wayne told me his first "wife went back in the military" then he shrugged off the sadness of that statement. See, in ntcc, a person who leaves the bible school or ntcc ministry to go back into the military is written off as being a reprobate. Their spouse is encouraged by the ntcc to divorce them; just because they left the ntcc. Then the spouse still in ntcc is recycled and married off to another ntcc person.
Now I like Wayne and Peggy, as I've said. And I don't know all the details of why their spouses left. But it would not surprise me to learn that their spouses left due to ntcc man-made rules that contradict God's Word.
And now I wonder if they later realized that all those bogus ntcc rules were sin; because the ntcc 'leaders' added to the scripture and laid heavy burdens on people that they themselves wouldn't lift a finger to touch?
And as far as worshipping joe olson? Nope. olson lies to cover for davis. joe olson lied when he said davis didn't know about ron denis' shenanigans; but Gail Olson confessed that davis did know; weeping that her husband joe was lying, Gail said "That just isn't so / true."
Also joe olson is a marriage buster. He has told people to leave their spouse / family just because the spouse was tired of ntcc hypocritical double standards and nonsensical rules. joe olson broke God's commandment: "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." joe olson should not be listened to. he breaks God's Word, lies, encourages adultery, and tries to break up families.
Don and Ange
WOW!!
Little Ol Joe! Say it Isn't So!
HAHAHAHA
Bro Johnson
About Rev. Kinson
Rev. Kinson was upset with me because I had lost a phone number of a person I was bringing to church, I really shouldn't have brought up his name but I wasn't thinking when I typed about him. I was just using of an example of how he was humble enough to appoligize when some people are not. He was concerned and dissapointed in me because he felt this person was slipping through the cracks and his drive and conviction caused him to come accross harsher than I think he intendend to. Anyways I was too much of a chicken to tell him that I though the girl no longer wanted to come because she wanted a church that had more in the area's of youth ministry and missions trips which we had nothing of the sort.
I remeber one of the musicians and Bible school teachers getting jacked up and being called a blabber mouth because he was talking to his wife in church and he got called out onto the carpet because of it. For a while he had the nickname of blabbernouth so and so. I felt so sorry for him
:( The funny thing is I remeber the women of God talking many times in the back with each other and nothing was ever said. There was one time I was sitting back by some women of God and they started talking to me. It was really awkward I felt like I was breaking the rules with the big kids when I knew I shouldn't have been and tried not to talk that much.
On a side note, I wonder why nothing was really ever mentioned about Haiti (maybe the empty statements of a couple) or what's currently going on in Japan. They would never help, but I guess they still have a church in Okinawa, Japan.
"I guess they still have a church in Okinawa, Japan."
According to the officious ntcc church locator site, Terra and Curt Annis are still in Okinawa [scroll down to see photo]. Terra is the daughter of Russ and Jan Mears who worked for years as the ntcc campground caretakers. Don't know about their adult son Ed Mears. Hopefully the Annis family is ok. I would want them out of there, what with the damage to the nuclear power plant at Fukushima Something tells me a little bottle of Potassium Iodide pills, a rubber and plastic face mask, and an aluminum foil filter mechanism aren't going to do anything for you, except prolong your agony due to radiation sickness.
One thing is sure,
YOU'LL NEVER SEE tanya kekel BEING PUT AT RISK THE WAY THESE ntcc NEPOTISITS EXPECT YOU TO PUT YOUR FAMILY AT RISK!
YOU ARE JUST FODDER FOR THE MACHINE, MEAT FOR THE ntcc MONEY-MAKING GRINDER. NOW GET TO WORK MAKING THEM RICHER!!!!
And maybe, if Terra and Curt survive, and if they ever come back to Graham, Terra too can have the 'privilege' of mopping and waxing tanya kekel's floor while Curt washes and waxes mikey kekel's luxury car and motorcycle collection. What a blessing!
This tragedy in Japan isn't over yet.
The New York Times today is reporting a third explosion at the Fukushima Nuclear Plant. Read here.
From that article: "the spent fuel rods ... are still "hot" and if left uncovered, could overheat, causing the casings to ignite and release radioactivity directly into the air -- the catastrophic sequence that followed the Chernobyl reactor in 1986."
Don't worry, though. I'm sure tanya and verna will be happy to tell you "We are praying for you." yawn, file nail, smooth wrinkle from dress. Ahem. Guess that's all the 'help' you can expect from them too. To quote rahj, "With some people [losers] you can only expect so much [worthless]."
Got that right rahj. But even a broken watch is 'right' twice a day. So you really don't impress us rahj.
Additional video
Jeff, you nailed it. I was run off in just such a calculated way, and to this day I still don't know exactly what it was all about. My suspicions are that it had to do with the fact that I retained my friendship with Chris Kinson after he left, but that's just speculation. There was no mistaking the strategy though; the firebombs were coming thick and fast from the pulpit, and I was dropped from the teacher rolls with no explanation. The guy didn't even have the decency to speak to me in person, and when I finally decided to end the game, he expressed no interest whatsoever in finding out why. At that moment all of the doubts I had vanished, and a wave of delightful euphoria consumed my being as I experienced an onrush of delicious liberty. It's something I recommend to all who are still under the organizational thumb.
Wrong link in the additional video on the previous comment. Here are some links:
2nd explosion at nuclear plant; tidal wave tsunami footage here
raw footage of people running from tidal wave. They don't make it. link
Vic said...
Jeff, you nailed it. I was run off in just such a calculated way,
Jeff said...
No doubt. RWD has a history of doing the same thing to many people. The only ones who get away with avoiding RWD's wrath is Mike and Tanya Kekel.
I know what you did Vic; you said something he didn't like and he saw you as a threat. He is also not a big fan of people who have a head on their shoulders. He likes them young, dumb, ignorant and oblivious to really goes on in "his" organization. You didn't keep your mouth shut enough Vic. You said what was on your mind. Had you simply said "yes sir" and nothing more, they would have not run you off. I believe that.
Jeff
nuclear said...
YOU'LL NEVER SEE tanya kekel BEING PUT AT RISK THE WAY THESE ntcc NEPOTISITS EXPECT YOU TO PUT YOUR FAMILY AT RISK!
And maybe, if Terra and Curt survive, and if they ever come back to Graham, Terra too can have the 'privilege' of mopping and waxing tanya kekel's floor while Curt washes and waxes mikey kekel's luxury car and motorcycle collection. What a blessing!
Jeff said...
Bingo once again. The Kekels won't be placed under that kind of risk and what a blessing to be afforded the privilege an opertunity to clean the Kekel's home. NOT!!!! What suckers.
I've probably said this 100 times. The part I despise the most about the NTCC leadership is the way they promote all this, (be my personal butler business) which they gladly perpetuate. I hold the NTCC leadership in contempt. In my lifetime, I've never seen someone use their fellow man as much as the NTCC leadership uses and misuses it's members. It is despicable. The NTCC leadership is so scandalous that they've effectively devised a way to convince their church members that they are the ones being blessed by cleaning the Kekels house. What a bunch of crap!!!
You are being used you suckers and it is just that simple. Ain't no blessing coming from you cleaning the homes of the NTCC leadership. That time could be spent by you taking care of your own family or yourself for that matter. The NTCC already eats up enough of your time without using what little you have left over to clean Mike Kekel's dirty underwear.
Whatever. Let the blind lead the blind. I'll guarantee this. Tanya Kekel's house can rot in hell before my wife will clean up after Mike and Tanya Kekel. Boy if that ain't the Robin Hood story, what is?
I don't know if the Kekels are still promoting that but they should have never done it in the first place. That is a complete failure at this station/removal from course, effective leadership 101. Getting a brainwashed sucker to follow you is not effective leadership and I used to be one of the many "brainwashed suckers." It's called using people who's heart is too good to see clearly what's really going on. The power of cult persuasion can not be underestimated. The NTCC thrives on USING the pure in heart.
Jeff
CULT LEADER TRAITS===
1. Glibness/Superficial Charm
Glibness is a hallmark of psychopaths. They are able to use language effortlessly to beguile, confuse, and convince. They are captivating storytellers. They exude self-confidence and are able to spin a web that intrigues others and pulls them into the psychopath's life. Most of all, they are persuasive. Frequently they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or disarm them emotionally.
2. Manipulative and Conning
Cult leaders do not recognize the individuality or rights of others, which makes all self-serving behaviors permissible. The hallmark of the psychopath is the _psychopathic maneuver_, which is essentially interpersonal manipulation "based on charm. The manipulator appears to be helpful, charming, even ingratiating or seductive, but is covertly hostile, domineering... [The victim] is perceived as an aggressor, competitor, or merely an instrument to be used ... The manipulation inevitably becomes the end-all and is no longer qualified by the reality principle." In other words, there are no checks on the psychopath's behavior -- anything goes.
The psychopath divides the world into suckers, sinner, and himself. He discharges powerful feelings of terror and rage by dominating and humiliating his victims. He is particularly successful when, through an overlay of charm, he makes an ally of his victim -- a process sometimes described as emotional vampirism or emotional terrorism.
3. Grandiose Sense of Self
The cult leader enjoys tremendous feelings of entitlement. He believes everything is owed to him as a right. Preoccupied with his own fantasies, he must always be the center of attention. He presents himself as the "Ultimate One": enlightened, a vehicle of god, a genius, the leader of humankind, and sometimes the most humble of the humble. He has an insatiable need for adulation and attendance. His grandiosity may also be a defense against inner emptiness, depression, and a sense of insignificance. Paranoia often accompanies the grandiosity, reinforcing the isolation of the group and the need for protection against a perceived hostile environment. In this way, he creates an us-versus-them mentality.
4. Pathological Lying
Psychopaths lie coolly and easily, even when it is obvious they are being untruthful. It is almost impossible for them to be consistently truthful about either a major or minor issue. They lie for no apparent reason, even when it would be easier and safer to tell the truth. This is sometimes called "crazy lying". Confronting their lies may provoke an unpredictably intense rage or simply a Buddha-like smile.
Another form of lying common among cult leaders is known as _pseudopodia fantastica_, an extension of pathological lying. Leaders tend to create a complex belief system, often about their own powers and abilities, in which they themselves sometimes get caught up. "It is often difficult to determine whether the lies are an actual delusional distortion of reality or are expressed with the conscious or unconscious intent to deceive."
These manipulators are rarely original thinkers. Plagiarists and thieves, they seldom credit the true originators of ideas, often co-opting authorship. They are extremely convincing, forceful in the expression of their views, and talented at passing lie detector tests. For them, objective truth does not exist. The only "truth" is whatever will best achieve the outcome that meets their needs.
(from a website somewhere...)
Does this sound like any group we know of?
5. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
At the core of the psychopath is a deep-seated rage which is split off and repressed. Some researchers theorize that this is caused by feeling abandoned in infancy or early childhood. Whatever the emotional or psychological source, psychopaths see those around them as objects, targets, or opportunities, not people. They do not have friends, they have victims and accomplices -- and the latter frequently end as victims. For psychopaths the ends always justify the means. Thus there is no place for feelings of remorse, shame, or guilt. Cult leaders feel justified in all their actions since they consider themselves the ultimate moral arbiter. Nothing gets in their way.
6. Shallow Emotions
While they may display outbursts of emotion, more often than not they are putting on a calculated response to obtain a certain result. They rarely reveal a range of emotions, and what is seen is superficial at best, pretended at worst. Positive feelings of warmth, joy, love, and compassion are more feigned than experienced. They are unmoved by things that would upset the normal person, while outraged by insignificant matters. They are bystanders to the emotional life of others, perhaps envious and scornful of feelings they cannot have or understand. In the end, psychopaths are cold, with shallow emotions, living in a dark world of their own.
Hiding behind the "mask of sanity," the cult leader exposes feelings only insofar as they serve an ulterior motive. He can witness or order acts of utter brutality without experiencing a shred of emotion. He casts himself in a role of total control, which he plays to the hilt. What is most promised in cults -- peace, joy, enlightenment, and security -- are goals that are forever out of reach of the leader, and thus also the followers. Since the leader is not genuine, neither are his promises.
7. Incapacity for Love
As the "living embodiment of God's love," the leader is tragically flawed in being unable to either give or receive love. Love substitutes are given instead. The leader's tremendous need to be loved is accompanied by an equally strong disbelief in the love offered him by his followers; hence, the often unspeakably cruel and harsh testing of his devotees. Unconditional surrender is an absolute requirement.
8. Need for Stimulation
Thrill-seeking behaviors, often skirting the letter or spirit of the law, are common among psychopaths. Such behavior is sometimes justified as preparation for martyrdom: "I know I don't have long to live; therefore my time on this earth must be lived to the fullest." "Surely even I am entitled to have fun or sin a little." This type of behavior becomes more frequent as the leader deteriorates emotionally and psychologically -- a common occurrence.
Cult leaders live on the edge, constantly testing the beliefs of their followers, often with increasingly bizarre behaviors, punishments, and rules. Other mechanisms of stimulation come in the form of unexpected, seemingly spontaneous outbursts, which usually take the form of verbal abuse and sometimes physical punishment. The psychopath has a cool indifference to things around him, yet his icy coldness can quickly turn into rage, vented on those around him.
9. Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Psychopaths readily take advantage of others, expressing utter contempt for anyone else's feelings. Someone in distress is not important to them. Although intelligent, perceptive, and quite good at sizing people up, they make no real connections with others. They use their "people skills" to exploit, abuse, and wield power. Psychopaths are unable to empathize with the pain of their victims.
10. Poor Behavioral Controls / Impulsive Nature
Like small children, many psychopaths have difficulty regulating their emotions. Adults who have temper tantrums are frightening to be around. Rage and abuse, alternating with token expressions of love and approval, produce an addictive cycle for both abuser and abused, as well as create a sense of hopelessness in the later.
The cult leader acts out with some regularity -- often privately, sometimes publicly -- usually to the embarrassment and dismay of his followers and other observers. He may act out sexually, aggressively, or criminally, frequently with rage. Generally this aberrant behavior is a well-kept secret, known only to a few disciples. The others see only perfection.
These tendencies are related to the psychopath's need for stimulation and inability to tolerate frustration, anxiety, and depression. Often a leader's inconsistent behavior needs to be rationalized by either the leader or follower in order to maintain internal consistency. It is often regarded as divinely inspired and further separates the empowered from the powerless.
11. Early Behavior Problems / Juvenile Delinquency
Psychopaths frequently have a history of behavioral and academic difficulties. They often "get by" academically, conning other students and teachers. Encounters with juvenile authorities are frequent. Equally prevalent are difficulties in peer relationships and developing and keeping friends, marked control problems, and other aberrant behaviors such as stealing, fire setting, and cruelty to others.
12. Irresponsibility / Unreliability
Not concerned about the consequences of their behavior, psychopaths leave behind them the wreckage of others' lives and dreams. They may be totally oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they inflict on others, something which they regard as neither their problem nor their responsibility.
Psychopaths rarely accept blame for their failures or mistakes. Scapegoating is common, blaming followers, those outside the group, a member's family, the government, Satan -- anyone and everyone but the leader. The blaming may follow a ritualized procedure such as a trial, "hot seat" denunciation, or public confession. Blame is a powerful rein forcer of passivity and obedience, producing guilt, shame, terror, and conformity in the followers.
Rod Keller / rkeller@voicenet.com
- and he never even heard of NTCC !!!
Paragraph 12 describes the NTCC to a tee. So do some of the others but that one in particular caught my attention.
Jeff
All,
Due to urgent military requirments I must sign off for an extremely long period of time.
Please keep my family in your thoughts and prayers as I go forward to support Operation Enduring Freedom.
God Bless you all, in NTCC who actually care about souls, and those who are out.
When you get down to it, all that really matters is the Salvation of your Soul covered by the Blood of Jesus, regardless of which side of the NTCC fence you are on or which team you root for.
Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus!!
I thank God for the opportunities that I made and friendships which flourished while in NTCC. Friendships are forever!
If I ever offended anybody on any of these blogs I truely apologize, no hard feelings, I was lost in emotion.
Bro Jeff, thank you for a forum to address my complaints. You, Sir, are a Great American! Thank you for your service to God and Country. Sister Tracy, your blog prior to Bro Jeff's was instrumental to me as well, Thank You!!
Rev Briggs, Sir, please pray for me as I value your experience and expertise as a Man of God. You have the goods, and may you be an asset to NTCC for the best. Thank you for being a liason.
Rev Kekel, Sir, if your reading this blog, my apologies for causing you undo heartache(s). I really tried to be a pain the assets and I probably exceeded the Civil limit, not probably, I did, so I am sorry. Please right the wrongs NTCC ever did if you care.
I truely forgive NTCC for all the wrong they or their preachers ever caused me or my family. I can't hold grudges right now, I just let it go and give it to God.
Let go, and Let God do a work in your life, whatever that may entail.
May God's peace wrap it's mighty arms around you and comfort you.
So I bid goodbye now, Adieu, Cheers, Kapshi Kapshi Da!!
And ALL of God's children said AMEN!!!
EXERS, Keep on the Firing Line!!
Kindest Regards,
Bro Michael L. Johnson, SFC, US ARMY HOOAH!!!
Wow Bro! Keep your head down. I got to say this Bro. I do believe that the NTCC leadership is crooked and that is where I stand. I believe you can have a clear conscience and still maintain that stance if that is what you truly believe. I believe they are crooks, that is my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Yeah I would say there were times that you took your displeasure with the NTCC to another level and you may feel you went overboard from time to time, but that doesn't mean they are not crooks because they are. I heard what RWD and his pastors preached and I haven't forgotten. The Kekels have not lived according to RWD's teachings and we all caught hell trying to follow the very rules that the Kekels have disregarded and RWD has done nothing substantial to stop it.
RWD and the NTCC have broken up families for less than the Kekels have gotten away with and it's nepotism, partiality and bunch of double standards and I'm making no apologizes for stating that fact.
These NTCC crooks want to separate our soldiers from their families. Then once these fine soldiers have forsaken their families, the NTCC leadership will kick them to the curb like a bad habit the minute they stop doing three to four things. If they stop saying, "Yes Sir" or paying tithe, bringing in numbers or bringing in money the NTCC will right em off like a bad habit.
Then who do they have to go back to? The family who still loves them unconditionally, (unlike the NTCC) but there is one problem. Theirs families forgive but they never forget how their brainwashed, zombie, NTCC convert child completely turned their back on them while treating them like the devil himself. And that my friends is something that RWD has never done to the Kekels no matter how many NTCC rules they've broken. The NTCC will have you turn your back on your family in a minute but RWD won't turn his back on his no matter what the Kekels do.
Your Mother and Father loves you unconditionally because you are their child. God loves you unconditionally because you are his child. The NTCC leadership's love is superficial, fake and CONDITIONAL upon you continuing to bring in money, numbers, tithe and say, "Yes Sir" while not disagreeing with the NTCC leadership.
That is the NTCC and I know what I'm talking about. When a parent looses a 5 year old child, the parent mourns in utter despair. When the NTCC leadership looses a child of God who's been with them for 25 years the NTCC leadership says, "He didn't love God and he got crossed up with the devil." "He needs to get saved"!! That is what the NTCC says and I hate their sorry attitude. When a son or daughter gets mixed up with the NTCC they rarely ever see their family and their families mourns their absents. When the same son or daughter leaves the NTCC the NTCC leadership says, "They weren't doing anything for God anyway and they were no longer good for our church and God just weeded them out". "We were here when you got here and we will still be here when you leave and if you don't like it, there is the door". That is the extent of the NTCCs love and I heard RWD, Mayers and Oberhauser all make the same basic statement. No love at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't stand the NTCC.
Jeff
Jeff Wut is the purpose of all ur childish words n behavior? you sound like a school boy. Do u know that a person of character n a mature person would leave the organization n keep their stupid comments to themselves. Yes we all get the point... you got your little feelings hurt n can't let it go like an adult. You have to try to bring others down with you n your also keeping people from coming to church n giving their lives to God. Get it out of your head...its not about man or this organization..its about God. God instituted it n it has been a lighthouse to many lost souls. But when new people look up the church on the web they lose out because of blogs like yours. You are treading in deep, hot waters n u have quite a judgement day waiting for you. Remember you will give an account for every idle word n for trying to harm the Lords anointed.
Anonymous who writes like a child said...
Jeff Wut is the purpose of all ur childish words n behavior? you sound like a school boy.
Jeff said...
Well ain't that the pot calling the kettle black. You write like a school girl and a young one. You are in an organization with leaders who practice double standards and like to abuse people. Can you understand that? Highly improbable. By the way, your crooked organization is not about God. It's about control, money, and abuse of authority. It's a family business.
See if you can find a keyboard or take enough time to type out your words. This is a blog, not a text message center. Either that or you're just plain lazy and you like to take shortcuts. There's nothing wrong with writing in a manner while using enough logic which would suggest that your education surpassed the first grade. That's all I have for you. In case you don't know, you didn't do the NTCC any favors with your childish messages. I certainly wouldn't want you on my debate team. I'd take pastor Briggs. That dude can debate.
Jeff
Great comments Jeff,
The thing I learned about NTCC is serve God and not an organization. Because the day I started serving God and for got about mans law I left the organization (NTCC). Keep spreading the truth because it’s what people need. I wouldn’t recommend that any attend any NTCC because the first time you don’t follow one of there rules (NO TV) they will chew you up and spit you out. There will be a judgment day and RWD will be at the front of the line and if you’re going behind him I wouldn’t feel so bad. Men who are the Lords anointed cared for souls and don’t blast someone from the pulpit because they didn’t follow one of his rules the Kekels have already broken!!!
I really don't care if I know how to debate or not. Your obviously the one with experience here. And you know Wut my so called childish messages has nothing to do with this organization. Loyalty is what matters...not speech. You wouldn't know about that though. Anyways I'm done writing...not gonna waste anymore time. Enjoy ur blog. May you find happiness and comfort in your repetitive statements. People get the point. Get some new material. Take care
Sorry Jeff for getting heated. Not my place to judge you...
Anonymous said,
"Do u know that a person of character n a mature person would leave the organization n keep their stupid comments to themselves."
Don and Ange said,
Where does the ntcc dig up people like this. Well, anonymous, since you can't spell or use proper grammar (or are too lazy or possibly afraid that someone will recognize your style) lets do some math equations.
Your life minus the ntcc = nothing. (which is what you would have if you left the ntcc)
What you would have if you were never involved in the ntcc, minus everything you gave to the ntcc equals what you have now = a big zero.
A perfectly normal life divided by a CULT called ntcc = a wasted life.
If you subtract ntcc from the equation you have normal. If you add ntcc to the equation you have no money. How can you add something to something positive and end up with something negative? The ntcc specializes in destroying normal people and sucking the life out of them which is where you come in to the picture. You prove everything we write. You balance out the equation of what is wrong with the ntcc and why we blog about it. A rational person will check out this blog and say, "I don't want anything to do with the ntcc, after they see your illiterate nonsense. They will believe us because there is substance to what we believe and write, while what you believe and write just proves our point.
Normal + ntcc = abnormal wasted life.
Normal - ntcc = potential for growth and the american dream
Don and Ange
Anonymous said...
Sorry Jeff for getting heated. Not my place to judge you.
Jeff said...
Why not? That's the problem. The NTCC has stolen your identity and will. Jesus wasn't passive and I don't expect you to be either. There is nothing wrong with sticking up for yourself because I'm certainly going to. It's not about judgment, it's about self will and you certainly have the right to exercise yours. No apologies necessary. Take care.
Jeff
New post on ntccX-er blog, check it out.
Hatred is like poisoning yourself and expecting someone else to die from it- Stephanie
Sgt. Johnson, I just got back from a trip to see my ailing Mother-in-law. I will keep you in prayer. Be safe!
Your cyber friedn
Robert Briggs
Robert, I pray your mother-in-law gets better...
MB
p.s., good song I'm listening to, "Heart of Worship," by Michael Smith
MB
Monitoring and
investigating religious
fraud since 1987
http://www.trinityfi.org/
This GROUP investigates fraud and cooruption in church groups,
and church leaders. Please go there, and TELL THEM
YOUR STORY and experience with NTCC of America INC!!!
Maybe there will be some legal action to make them
open their books, and let the light of day shine upon
them!
Please post this on your main page.
Pastor Briggs: I hope your mother-in-law gets better. I also hope you had a good trip. Take care.
Sincerely,
Jeff
Anonymous said...
http://www.trinityfi.org/ Please put this on your home page.
Jeff said...
I plan to. I'll get to it.
Jeff
Thanks MB and Jeff, she is doing better but has a long haul. Diabetes is a nasty disease. She might loose her legs (hopefully not, but if so, hopefully that will be all). The trip was good, just long and tiring. Got a remodle to do next week..
RB
You said long and tiring. I guess you drove? I would imagine it was a long drive. Assuming I'm right, I'm not a big fan of driving long distances. It's quite tiring. Especially for old dudes like us. Well, kind of old. 50 is not too far away for me. I have a nephew with diabetes. Yeah it's quite nasty. I've heard that certain kinds of nutritional supplements can help get it under control. Maybe Chromium Picolinate? I'm not sure. Yeah it is! I just looked it up. Google it Pastor Briggs, you'll see.
If she is not trying that already she may want to. Have her check with her doctor. I've read some really good things about it. There is some real evidence suggesting that it helps your body get it's insulin levels under control. Make sure to check it out. If this blog can help your mother in law that would be a pretty good thing. I'm not trying to get spiritual here but God works in mysterious ways.
Jeff
Interesting Jeff. I looked it up, one excerpt said that Chromium Picolinate is a nutritional supplement that works to increase the efficiency of insulin to optimal levels.
I sure know how long those Texas drives can be! It's 12 hours to get to El Paso from Houston, and your STILL in Texas!
Will continue to keep her in my prayers Pastor Briggs. That remodel sounds like a big project, pray that God will bless and help you with it! --- MB
I spent a few years attending Servicemen's Homes in Germany, Georgia, and Texas in the 1980's. I also attended the Bible college in St. Louis for a year or so.
I saw the hypocrisy and double standards after I got to St. Louis, but not while I was in the Servicemen's Homes. What do you make of people like J P Rodrigues and his wife Becky? I spent a lot of time with them in the mid-80's and I am certain they were very decent people who loved God. I wonder how can they stay in the NTCC organization? (I could name other very decent Pastors in the organisation)
Thanks Jeff. Yes, we drove took a day for the kids at Fiesta Texas in San Antonio and then drove to Lubbock for the rest of the week. I will look up the stuff you mentioned but for my Mother-in-law it's aa bigger issue. She's in her 80's and does not eat as she should. She lives with a daughter who is very busy and doesn't take care of mom like she should. We have tried and tried to get her to come down with us but her whole life was spent in Lubbock. Now the sores and infection has gotten so bad on the feet that they don't know if they can save them. She's had 2 small strokes recently so you see it's gettting close. But she is a fighter and was in good spirits. Prayers are coveted and appreciated.
RB
Thanks too MB
Hey I suffered through...I mean enjoyed Fiesta TX with my kids last Monday(1st day of spring break)! Whew it was crowded!
My mother was also a noncompliant diabetic, unfortunately it was a contributing factor in her untimely death at age 58. I am praying for your mother-in-law.
ns
Anonymous asked...
What do you make of people like J P Rodriguez and his wife Becky?
Jeff said...
They have to turn a blind eye to a lot of hypocrisy. Their conscience eventually gets seared with a hot iron. I'm sure they reached that point a while ago. Especially being that Becky's biological sister left the NTCC while telling some serious horror stories about the organization. Becky knows the real story about the NTCC but she chooses to ignore it.
It's called having your conscience cooked. These people who've been around the NTCC for a while are following a man not God. The reason I say that is because the men who make up the NTCC leadership follow their own lust which is Money, not God.
Jeff
NS.. I wish I would have known.. I was there on Tuesday.. and it was TERRIBLE>>... we waited in a couple of lines for almost 2 hours.
RB
PS I am STILL working on your Cedar Chest btw... It might get finished by next Christmas... ;(
Anonymous said:
"What do you make of people like J P Rodriguez and his wife Becky?"
Don and Ange said,
I spent time with the Rodriguez's in Hawaii a couple of times while on leave from Korea. They were very nice folks and didn't seem to have the same judgmental attitude towards folks as others in the ntcc had. While on vacation, they showed me around the island and actually had a real good time. They didn't spend every waking moment lamenting over lost souls and stumping for tithes and offerings.
That is what was good about them and there is good in many of the ntcc ministers that I have been around. With some there seem to be motives behind everything they do. How can we use you? In what way can you benefit our program?
I thought that Mom and Pop Gaylord had a very pleasant disposition and they seemed to me to be very good folks. They were always positive and seemed not to emphasize the same things as your cookie cutter ntcc minister that had been to bs did. They were fun to be around and with them you had more liberty to be yourself than with others.
However, that doesn't change the fact that the ntcc is an abusive cult. As Jeff said, the Rodriguez's had to turn a blind eye to a lot that's happened in the ntcc, including the mistreatment of Becky's sister and other family members. They seemingly disowned Deborah and Gregory Shunk as did the ntcc for no apparent reason which is common place in the ntcc and speaks loudly of the ntcc's cultish policy of forsaking family. The Shunks were not part of any scandal nor had they done anything wrong, but the ntcc is cut and dry on loyalty issues. When they say that they acknowledge that they are not the only church going to heaven, take a look at how they treat their own and ask yourself the question, "What must a person do to get to heaven?" Most of their own aren't going if you agree with their standards, and if you measure other churches by the same, there is very little hope for anyone.
The Gaylord's which had more to do with ntcc's success if you want to call it that, also had to go along with davis's abusive ways. I think that if they could have done it over again they would have never gotten involved with rwd, but they could have left and continued their work elsewhere. davis legally had the organization in his billfold so if Mom and Pop had left they would have had to start all over again. By them staying, they could at least encourage those that davis had walked all over.
What a cesspool and a sickening mess to have to try to clean up.
This is what is sad about the ntcc. People are forced to pattern their ministries after the davis way or they are thrown out the door. There is no reconciliation with these people. You leave, and you are considered the lowest of low. If you stay, you better fall in line and you better allow the board members to step all over you, because you are not going to be treated as a member of the body of Christ.
Don and Ange
One of the more serious sins we committed at NTCC was neglecting people who did not meet 'our standards'. We chased off many folks (brothers and unsaved folks alike) for a variety of unacceptable reasons (poor, foul smell, goofy-looking, etc.). Undoubtedly, some of these people died without knowing Christ.
"And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:" Ja. 2:3
"But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?" Ja. 2:6
Anonymous said,
"One of the more serious sins we committed at NTCC was neglecting people who did not meet 'our standards'."
Don and Ange said,
I'm glad that you acknowledge that there are sins and hope that if you are still in the ntcc that you will make that right. The only problem is that no matter what you do, all the people you do reach will be sent off to ntcs or end up with a different pastor that follows the same abusive teachings and practices that rwd is so famous for.
Good people with decades of service to the ntcc are being mistreated and leaving at alarming rates and it does not seem that things are going to change any time soon.
Maybe you can make a difference.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange said,
I'm glad that you acknowledge that there are sins and hope that if you are still in the ntcc that you will make that right.
I am no longer involved with NTCC, and while I was involved, I never had the guts to say anything about the way people were treated.
Anonymous said, "I am no longer involved with NTCC, and while I was involved, I never had the guts to say anything about the way people were treated."
Don and Ange say,
An honest statement. We can all put our names on that. Who hasn't seen the abuse and kept their mouth shut while in ntcc? At first you think, "It's for their good." Later you think, "Poor so-n-so." Later still you think, "I hope I don't get blasted."
Whatever the reason, we've all been there and done that!
The good news is that now you have a choice to use your voice! Will you? There are things only you know and can share. You could be helping someone else who is sitting where you sat. You could save them the time and grief you went through by continuing to exercise your right to free speech. Once you forgive yourself, as you have probably already asked God to forgive you; then you may even find healing in helping others simply by sharing what you saw, what you know, and how you escaped the ntcc.
Whatever you decide, we hope you forgive yourself for anything you've repented of. And we want you to know, it wasn't you. ntcc was set up to convince us we were the ones with the problem; we were wrong (no matter what we did; or how we did it.) That's how cults work. But it wasn't you that was wrong. It's ntcc that's wrong.
Don and Ange
I had a contact (funny we called them contacts) I was bring to church that stopped coming. I saw him a few months later and he told me that he got saved and thanked me for pursuing him and praying for him. He was attending another church with his wife at the time and seemed very excited. I was upset and brushed the guy off because he wasn’t coming to NTCC with me after all I (not God) done for him. I wish I could see this guy again so I can apologize for the way I treated him. In NTCC we did think we were better than everyone else.
I had someone I worked with at Jack in the Box while I was in Bible school he told me he had gotten saved at our church and then God lead him to be somewhere else. I just could not understand it and one day I questioned him saying why did you leave? That day was going to be a very hard one for him. That very day after I had asked him that someone rammed into his new parked uninsured car doing a lot of damage and pretty much totaling his car. That day he needed someone to pray and support him not question his Christianity according to what church he went to to. I felt ashamed I wished I had the opportunity to apologize also but not long after he ended up quitting :(
One of the main reason I got a Facebook account was to find certain people in high school to apologize to if I had applied too much pressure for them to come to church or expected them to live up to my standards if they were Christians. I was able to apologize to every one I felt I had done wrong in some way it was a comfort. I could have done so much for God being a Christian in high school if I didn't have the attitude of feeling like Elijah and no body is saved like me and the attitude of I am the only Christian who believes in holiness. I also would have had many wonderful Christian friends and not been a loner LOL.
Don and Ange say,
An honest statement. We can all put our names on that....
Thank you for your encouragement. I don't want to publish my name on this blog because I don't want my present circle of friends and colleagues to know that I was associated with the NTCC. I do have a relationship with Jesus and hope and expect that He will give me some guidance about this. There are some good folks in that organisation that need help.
Anonymous said...
I had a contact
Jeff said...
I understand. Thankfully we are not like that any longer. Who knows, you may run into the guy but it really doesn't matter. You've had a change in heart and that is what matters and God knows. We were taught that kind of stuff. We were taught that the NTCC was a holier than thou church and if someone didn't go to the NTCC they didn't want God. You've heard it and so have I.
Much like the Pharisees we were and that is yet another NTCC custom that I can't stand. Once again, I wouldn't worry about it cause God knows your heart and that is all that matters. I could care less what guys like RWD, Olson, and Ashmore think. They are crooks.
Jeff
Anonymous said,
"I wish I could see this guy again so I can apologize for the way I treated him."
their are some exers that need to stop pointing fingers for a minute and apologize to people they hurt while in ntcc.
Anonymous said...
their are some exers that need to stop pointing fingers for a minute and apologize to people they hurt while in ntcc.
Jeff said...
NTCC pastors point fingers five times a week and that is publicly and little of it is Biblical. Take the non-public occurrences and they've been point fingers a whole log longer and more than I have. You guys just don't understand. The NTCC drew first blood on this one. Their abusive pastors wreaked havoc to my family and many others while we were trying to do the right thing. The NTCC made it personal and so have I. They've maliciously targeted certain ministers and church members for about 40 years and now we are targeting them. They want to publicly expose every flaw in every person who walks through their doors and we are exposing them and I'm not calling anyone's two year old daughter "FAT" in front of her parents like they did. I'm not calling people the "N" word they did and probably still do. I'm not calling women whores and or Jezebels like NTCC pastors have just because they had on jewelry and pants. These NTCC pastors aren't Godly, they are often viscious and maliscious and I'm not pulling any punches with these clowns.
These NTCC pastors got way carried away for decades and abused their positions and hurt a lot of people. Now we are calling them out. You don't understand. Cults like the NTCC absolutely wreck people's lives and that is why there are websites like this one and Factnet.
You might get it one day.
Jeff
I personally do not like to be called an exer. I am a Christian seeking freedom from false condemnation and it helps to ask those who have already experienced being released from this. I do not hate anyone and like the Bible says I try to keep to this
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Hey Jeff -
Where are you getting this stuff from? Not true at all. RWD want's to get rid of old timers so fresh young people will go around and "Yes Sir" him? That is a hysterical, yet untruthful take on this man. If it were true, that would be pretty sad.
Stuck In The Middle -
Hey Don -
What's up with Wayne Cantrell? What a precious brother in the Lord. I hope nothing bad happened to him.
Stuck In the Middle -
Stuck in the middle asked...
Where are you getting this stuff from?
Jeff said...
He just got rid of a preacher who has been with the NTCC for about 27 years. RWD flat out ran him off. Sure, RWD didn't say, "Leave my church and don't come back". What RWD did do is verbally jump all over this guy for no reason. Who would want to stay in an organization and put up with that stuff? RWD has enough experience to know that when he needlessly jumps all over someone they are likely to leave the NTCC for good because it has happened too many times. Too many people have told me that RWD has done the same thing. RWD knows that when he's acting like a Drill Sergeant while jumping all over an NTCC pastor like he is some kind of private, the pastor is likely to leave and not come back.
RWD knows this so when he does it, he is willfully running off that old timer. The ones who stand up to RWD are the old timers, not usually the new guys and RWD is just doing a power check. It's a psychological game and it's not right. RWD has a history of jumping all over people and some folks won't put up with it and I don't blame them when they leave. If you really wanted an answer, there you have it.
NTCC pastors have a history of running off their church members. I've witnessed it too many time in NTCC churches that I've been a part of. The details are all over this blog. If you want the details call me.
Jeff
13. Promiscuous Sexual Behavior / Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, polygamy, rape, and sexual acting out of all sorts are frequently practiced by cult leaders. Conversely, there is often stringent sexual control of the followers through such tactics as enforced celibacy, arranged marriages, forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from their parents, forced abortions or mandated births. For psychopaths, sex is primarily a control and power issue.
Marital fidelity is rare in the psychopath's life. There are usually countless reports of extramarital affairs and sexual predation upon adult and child members of both sexes. The sexual behavior of the leader may be kept hidden from all but the inner circle or may be part of accepted group sexual practices. In any case, due to the power imbalance between leader and followers, sexual contact is never truly consensual and is likely to have damaging consequences for the follower.
14. Lack of Realistic Life Plan / Parasitic Lifestyle
The psychopath tends to move around a lot, making countless efforts at "starting over" while seeking out fertile new ground to exploit. One day may appear as a rock musician, the next as a messiah; one day a used car salesman, the next the founder of a mass self-transformation program; one day a college professor, the next the new "Lenin" bringing revolution to America.
The flip side of this erratic life planning is the all-encompassing promise for the future that the cult leader makes to his followers. Many groups claim as their goal world domination or salvation at the Apocalypse. The leader is the first to proclaim the utopian nature of the group, which is usually simply another justification for irrational behavior and stringent controls.
The leader's sense of entitlement is often demonstrated by the contrast between his luxurious lifestyle and the impoverishment of his followers. Most cult leaders are supported by gifts and donations from their followers, who may be pressured to turn over much of their income and worldly possessions to the group. Slavery, enforced prostitution, and a variety of illegal acts for the benefit of the leader are common in a cult milieu.
Psychopaths also tend to be preoccupied with their own health while remaining totally indifferent to the suffering of others. They may complain of being "burned out" due to the burden of "caring for" their followers, sometimes stating they do not have long to live, instilling fear and guilt in their devotees and encouraging further servitude. They are highly sensitive to their own pain and tend to be hypochondriacs, which often conflicts with their public image of superhuman self-control and healing abilities. According to them, the illnesses they _don't_ get are due to their powers, while the ones they _do_ get are caused by their "compassion" in taking on their disciples' karma or solving the group's problems. This of course is another guru trick.
15. Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Cult leaders change their image and that of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and litigation, to increase their income, and to recruit a range of members. Cult leaders have an innate ability to attract followers who have the skills and connections that the leaders lack. The longevity of the group is dependent on the willingness of the leadership to adapt as needed and preserve the group. Frequently, when illegal or immoral activities are exposed to the public, the cult leader will relocate, sometimes taking followers with him. He will keep a low profile, only to resurface later with a new name, a new front group, and perhaps a new twist on the scam.
--
Rod Keller / rkeller@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
some exers who were the MOST abusive people WHILE in ntcc. hope a heart change took place.
Anonymous said...
some exers who were the MOST abusive people WHILE in ntcc. hope a heart change took place.
Jeff said...
Ain't that the truth. We all picked up on that garbage. I was never a pastor and judged my share!!! It will bother me till the day I die. I learned it from the NTCC leadership. I was not cool at all to my family. I have many regrets. I'll tell you what; there are some seriously abusive ones left. Ramirez, RWD, Medrano, Mayers, Oberhauser, Ashmore, Snyder, Barnes and these are just the ones I know. Yeah your are right. Some seriously abusive ones have left. The NTCC teaches that garbage. All you have to do is question one of them and almost all of them get abusive and hot headed. Jones, Kinson. These guys can't stand being questioned. I'd give them all a piece of my mind now. We'd just have to part ways or fight, one or the other, but I'm not backing down to one of those crooks anymore. They aren't going to be giving me a piece of their mind, (like they always did) without me throwing it right back at them. They always try to back you down but those days are over with me. I'll tell an NTCC crooked NTCC pastor what I think of his crooked organzation in a minute and I've done it.
The reason I'm saying all this is if people would start standing up to the NTCC leadership when they start getting all hot headed, they would stop that mess or the NTCC wouldn't have anything but pastors and no church members. You have to stand up to those guys. They are humans just like you are and if they want respect they better give it or you can blast them just like they blast you. It can turn into a straight yelling match becasue you better believe they will yell at you. I've seen it happen many times. Hunt started yelling at a brother one time becasue his wife to be had a job. Oberhauser got all bent out of shape at a sister who been in the church for about 10 years becasue she didn't give him some information that he wanted. She left the NTCC the same night never to come back. Ramirez would screem and yell and so would Mayers and so would Barnes and so would RWD and on and on and on. I've seen Kinson get all bent out of shape and Jones. These guys have a problem. Oh they are all nice until you question one of them but they think they have the right to question you in a heart beat and there wives will do the same thing. They all can kiss my butt and boy it's a white one. You need sun glasses. I have no respect for these guys because they are such authoritians. They don't treat you like you are adults or church members, they treat you like you are there very own children. All that screeming and yelling that Mayers did and now look at what he's got. They got Snyder tucked away in Augusta where he can't do much damage. The last I know oberhauser is not even a pastor anymoore.
Jeff
Just testing my new ID.
Jeff,
I have posted a few comments under 'anonymous', and decided to create a simple user name.
I have been out of the NTCC's system since the late 1980's. I really understand your views and agree with most of what you write. Hopefully your horrible experience with this organisation has not caused you deep problems or bitterness towards God.
A few years ago I found a blog/comment forum about the NTCC and spent a few hours a day for 2 weeks reading comments. It was the first time in more than 15 years that I had contact with folks that had been in the organisation. I was both enthralled and shocked at how bad things had become. I knew, even in the 80's, that the organisation had some hypocrites, but I did not know how bad it really was.
Jeff,
I have posted a few comments under 'anonymous', and decided to create a simple user name.
I have been out of the NTCC's system since the late 1980's. I really understand your views and agree with most of what you write. Hopefully your horrible experience with this organisation has not caused you deep problems or bitterness towards God.
A few years ago I found a blog/comment forum about the NTCC and spent a few hours a day for 2 weeks reading comments. It was the first time in more than 15 years that I had contact with folks that had been in the organisation. I was both enthralled and shocked at how bad things had become. I knew, even in the 80's, that the organisation had some hypocrites, but I did not know how bad it really was.
I understand DJ and it was good talking to you this morning. Have a good one.
Jeff
So RWD out of the blue, just "ran this preacher off" for no reason? Wow, that's terrible. I've never know him to run people off for "no reason". Are you sure about that Jeff? Or are you getting one side of the story. I'm not saying the man didn't run off the preacher, but the "no reason" part is what I am struggling with. If that's the case, a bunch of people better look out, because they may be next. Please explain there Jeff, if you would.
Stuck In The Middle -
Stuck In The Middle asked...
Or are you getting one side of the story. I'm not saying the man didn't run off the preacher, but the "no reason" part is what I am struggling with.
Jeff said...
If your church is the last hope for man kind, than what would justify you deliberately treating someone with such harshness that they no longer wanted to remain a part of your church after having been there for 27 years? RWD knows that every man has a boiling point and he has a history of pushing people over the top. That is what is called deliberately running people off for no reason.
Oh the pastor didn't bring in enough money from his church members? Is that a reason to run someone off? The pastor got burnt out from years and years and years of selfless labor and he needed a break and is that a reason to run someone off? The pastor might not have wanted to go back out into the field and is that a reason to run someone off?
NO to all questions. And that is why I said for no reason. I know of another preacher who RWD told to move and sell his house and the guy wouldn't do it. He wanted to stay put just like Mike Kekel always has, so RWD ran him off also. This brings up my next thread which I will write soon.
Jeff
Dominant personalities apart from submission to Christ (and we know Davis is NOT submitted to Christ)actually feel weak around strong people. "leaders" tend to find "followers" to follow them, strong people will not follow a small man like Davis and especially Kekel. You need people who have been psychologically whipped; and people do not always stay the same, if perchance a man realizes "Davis is nothing but a bully and a crook" he will begin to take actions that will intimidate Davis. Davis in turn will have nothing he can do but to "run him off" ...it is the way of the coward. It is not just in ntcc, it happens in almost all churches. Pastors must feel that they are stronger and better leaders than their followers, if not, they will find a way to get rid of the strong personalities who they feel threatened by.
Jeff Said -
"Oh the pastor didn't bring in enough money from his church members? Is that a reason to run someone off? The pastor got burnt out from years and years and years of selfless labor and he needed a break and is that a reason to run someone off? The pastor might not have wanted to go back out into the field and is that a reason to run someone off?"
I have not heard of a preacher being run off for not "bringing in enough money". The group used to teach that it was the will of God for their life that they were interested in and that was witnessed by many. So someone doesn't want to go out somewhere because they don't sense the call to do so has always been supported. They really don't want someone going somewhere that they are not called to as THAT has caused more problems than what you are stating.
Still not catching your drift Jeff. Don't know what church you pastored, if you did and how you experienced this, but it's not jibing with what the group teaches.
-Stuck In The Middle -
There was some name dropping by Former Graham Lay Pastor (Hickman) in the other thread. Can anyone confirm if Matthew Reed is still with this group?
Stuck in the middle
I don't think your stuck, you're way to the left. If you have read any of these blogs you need to ask yourself why would all these people who were in NTCC for a number of years (10 for me 99-08) come on here and lie. But don't worry stay where you are and soon you will come out the closet and tell the tales of how you were ran off and how they treated you when you questioned something.
Matt Reed is definately out! Praise God for that. I'm a good friend of his & have been in contact with him - out!!!
Matt & Debbie Reed are out of the abusive cult, NTCC. Thank God the bro finally left. When we were in the org together we talked a few times about making the Great Escape because of RW's abusive treatment to preachers, etc. I was in for about 16 or 17 years & left in 2007 - best decision of my life!!! For all you folks still in ntcc...run, run for your life, because you can go back home again! Don't believe all the lies you're told. Life doesn't have to fall apart upon your departure! As a matter of fact life can & will get so much better...spriritually, financially, & psychologically!
Stuck In The Middle said...
Still not catching your drift Jeff. Don't know what church you pastored, if you did and how you experienced this, but it's not jibing with what the group teaches.
Jeff said...
I don't believe you are stuck in the middle. You are just trying to be slick the way I see it. I know the way RWD operates so it doesn't matter what you believe the "group" teaches. Your belief is wrong. RWD runs people off because he is insecure and it's just that simple so if you are still stuck in the middle than I guess that is where you'll stay.
Jeff
You are not trying to "catch my drift" either Stuck In The Middle. You are just trying to be slick; catch my drift? Ha, ha.
Jeff
Conferences in Grahamn are coming up! Jeff - will you be driving across country with your family to attend and report back to all of us? :)
I appreciate so much of what you've done on getting the word out on this abusive, fake, church. You're doing great work!
Jeff is going to be preaching the Thurs. AM service!
They don't want me to preach. I'll blast every last one of them. Give them a dose of their own medicine.
Jeff
I know a reverend who went to Davis and said "sir, I feel that God is laying xxxx on my heart" Davis response was "no, why don't you pray about xxxx instead"
Hmmm....Does davis really care about these guys and the will of God? or is it just his will he is concerned about? I think we all know the answer...
btw- that young minister suddenly felt that God was calling him to davis' xxxx......must have been the will of God!!
tb
tb said, {I know a reverend who went to Davis and said "sir, I feel that God is laying xxxx on my heart" Davis response was "no, why don't you pray about xxxx instead"} -- tb
Yup. That is the pattern. Davis wants to run your life. It was a test to see if he could control the reverend. Unfortunately, the guy caved and did the will of Davis, not the will of God.
Part 1
Stuck In The Middle,
Are you a student? Have you pastored a church? How long have you been in?
Because I sense you have no idea what you're talking about. So Jeff hasn't ever pastored a church in the Org. Yet, he's heard and seen enough with his own ears and eyes. He's been a witness to the acts that have been done in the name of the Lord. He's been a member of the church under various pastors. He's been a friend and confidant to many who've shared with him their horror stories. And.. he has integrity, he's never revealed things said to him in confidence.
I was a member for 32 yrs. I've seen, and heard a lot of stuff done in the name of the Lord. The gossiping of preachers and their wives. It would hurt many if I were to reveal the things said about them in private.
My brother in-law was taken off the board during one conference, because he didn't have the numbers in his church. Another preacher too, was taken off for the same reason, but he denies it was for that reason. Rev. Davis said the board members had to be examples to the other ministers. Yet... there are men on the board who’ve never had big churches. So what was he talking about? He would have had to remove Rev. Johnson, Rev. Olson and Rev. Difrancesco, Rev. Ashmore. John was shamed from the pulpit at another conference, it was said they didn't do a thing in Panama the first time they went!
I've heard and seen things done to my brother in-law and sister that will simply make you angry. Yet, behind closed doors my brother in-law weeps and my sister holds it in. But they just over look it and cry out to the Lord. Even if they did say something about it, what do you think will be said??? Yes, it would be brought out in public and said "they that love the law of the Lord nothing shall offend them. This verse doesn't give preachers the license to bully a child of God! John and Becky know the real deal. We've had talks before where I comforted them.
This going off the subject a little. But I want to show you how they work. Now.. my sister and I have no blood sister relationship at all. It's because Mike Kekel chose to reveal some private emails between him and my husband and Rev. Olson. My sister had no knowledge of this, it wasn't her business. Yet, he said the Holy Spirit led him to show them to her. He caused discord among the brethren, which is a violation of the by laws. If he's so in tune with the Holy Spirit, why didn't he listen to the Spirit telling him not to sow discord? Hmmm or was it the flesh saying thus saith Mike Kekel, blaming the Lord? So my sister automatically chooses the Org's side. John and Becky know the injustices that have taken place. It's just too late to do anything about it now. Their service is to the work of the Lord. Maybe too, their psychologically damaged. People love their abusers and begin to protect them after awhile... aah just remembered the name Stockholm Syndrome
Deborah Shunk aka Sis Blumenthal
Part 2
Stuck In The Middle
People may not leave but they sit in the pews with wounded spirits. Some don't feel worthy to be preachers, because that is how you're made to feel. The preacher in Graham brought in off the field. They're preached at by Rev. Davis "how long you gonna sit here" and other messages or comments made. Don't tell me it doesn't go on cause it does! There comes a time when you get tired of hearing about how you didn't do it right. When actually you did do what was taught.
Could it be that person is not in the place where the Lord wants them? Yet, the man who told Rev. Davis where God wanted him is blamed? He is shamed from the pulpit in front of church members and made out to be incompetent. In front of other preachers he's the example or Rev. Davis tells the group of ministers how bad of a preacher they are. This was done to my brother in-law.
My blood boils at the abuse my family has taken, and there are many preachers who have left because of things done and said to them like this! How long and how much does a person have to take before they wake up and see this relationship is abusive.I have never seen a church Org. that has been so abusive such as NTCC.
So for you to say preachers aren't run off by not having enough money or not having enough members in their church, YOU MISTER are living in a fantasy world! You also, have not experienced it yet. You want to hear that Rev. Davis said to ministers "leave". He won't say it face to face, but by the actions and in the messages it is done.
I also, don't agree with what you said "that if a man doesn't want to go somewhere their okay with it"? I've heard comments made about preachers not wanting to pastor here or there, they were over looked for other appointments. What planet are you on? You are drinking too much kool-aid my friend. Unless they have a new policy, or could it be from
the blogs that's cause them to change? I think not, because of how Rev. Reed was treated. But do you think they're going to ask forgiveness of all the people they've hurt throughout the years?
I say to you, your ignoring the things that go on. The signs of various acts are plainly there, you just don't want to face the facts. Some say they would have left sooner, but it was the fear of not being able to make it without the Org. Which is a totally false lie,that was fed to us. People are serving God not trying to please a man. The burden that is released is so powerful and amazing you'll feel like your 100's of lbs. lighter. And... No, we've not turned our lives over to the devil, thank you very much. This is the bondage that keeps you there, weighted down with the thoughts of what will they think?
Speaking from the heart as one who's been there and done that!
Greetings to all, I'm still the same after all these years! It's you and me Jesus, we sure fooled them all! = )
Deborah Shunk aka Sis. Blumenthal
Hey Deborah, I hope you guys are doing fine. Your input is appreciated. Would it be ok to post your message on the front of this blog? You made some good points which I'd like to see get a little more exposure. You know my wife teaches first grade at one of the local schools. She really enjoys being a teacher and working with the children.
I really believe that women bring something to the table as teachers that men don't. Thats not to say that there are not great male teachers because there certainly are, however women bring a motherly mentality to the whole situation (especially with young children) that men don't.
The NTCC has that one wrong also. I truly believe that it's part of Gods plan for mankind that women be school teachers. I can't even imagine a school system with only male teachers. I wouldn't want my children attending a school with only male tachers. It would be complete nonsense to suggest that the only women authorized to teach be unmarried.
Deborah, you understand this as well as anyone that the NTCC is seriously messed up. I hope you and your sister regain a healthy relationship one day.
Jeff
Deborah Shunk aka Sis. Blumenthal,
"Greetings to all, I'm still the same after all these years! It's you and me Jesus, we sure fooled them all! = )"
Don and Ange said,
Thank you for sharing on this blog, we love hearing what you have to say. We wish you could share more often, but we understand how things get busy and there is more to life than blogging.
I remember you singing that song in I think in Okinawa. It always warmed our hearts to hear you sing songs at conferences and that was one of our favorites. Ange was telling me she remembers that when we first met I was learning the piano and she knew a few chords on the guitar but neither one of us could play worth a plug nickel so we just sang "You and Me Jesus".
I have some pictures of Hawaii and time spent on vacation with John and Becky (I used to take military hops, and visit churches when traveling home for conferences from Korea). They are very good people and I can say or think only good of them. I feel sorry for them in that they have suffered much in the organization and believe that they are trapped in a bad situation. There is no call for what they did in driving a wedge between you and your family. Fear is a horrible master, and the ntcc uses it to keep people from reaching their potential and from leaving their ranks. When a person can find Christ without bondage and fear it brings freedom to the heart and soul.
We are so glad that you and others on this blog have found that freedom and we dedicate time to help folks on these blogs realize that there is a rich life in Christ waiting for them beyond the ntcc. If you are comfortable in the organization and feel that they are treating people right then stay there, but our experiences tell of a different story that is much darker and we believe many are crying out for help. People like "stuck in the middle" defend the ntcc and they were probably in an abusive situation themselves. We hope that you find peace, but have to say that there is very little in the middle.
Don and Ange
Sure Jeff go ahead and post it. If it helps someone to make a decision so that they can be free,let the Lord be praised.
Deb S. said,
"I was a member for 32 yrs. I've seen, and heard a lot of stuff done in the name of the Lord. The gossiping of preachers and their wives. It would hurt many if I were to reveal the things said about them in private."
This includes out right lying in the name of the Lord too!
Rev. Briggs,
I am inviting you to a discussion on the "Not about souls" thread.
Stephanie,
I invite you back to the "You Can't Be Serious" thread. I replied to your comment at the very end of it. I think you might gain some insight into NTCC from reading it. It might be a bit of a shocker though.
As a former pastor/prisoner of NTCC for 23+ years I can say Debbie Shunk speaks the truth. My wife and I are walking on spiritual cloud nine. It is so good to be free and God is blessing.
M.D. Reed
now known as Abaslom in the NTCC ranks. My question is which one of them is Joab?
Hey Matt,
Is that really what they are calling you now? We'd like to hear more if you care to divulge. We are very glad for you that you escaped from the ntcc and know the feeling of being on cloud 9 outside of the ntcc. Welcome!!!
Don and Ange
Matthew Reed said...
now known as Absalom
Jeff said...
Are you kidding? Absalom? They stoop to some pretty low levels. I can't stand them.
Jeff
Hello Rev. Reed,
I don't know if you still want to be called that. I know Casey Hayes didn't, but I just want to show you some respect. I hope all is well with you, and I hope you will continue to do ministry work despite your experiences. I still believe in the same practices that I learned first from you in Okinawa (i.e. outward holiness). It is a big deal to see that even my first pastor in NTCC has left the leader that he really loved at one time, and an org that I remember you really promoted. I really honestly believed in NTCC, too. It seemed that you were pretty close to Pastor Davis, but then after a while it seemed that Pastor Davis did not seem that endearing towards you. I remember him punching you in the stomach at a Conference. That was pretty shocking! What is your estimation of the Kekel's and the way they treat other ministers? It seemed to me that he talks bad about fellow ministers and even in front of them talks down to them and puts them down. I think Vic Johansen said that he said something negative about Rev. Rodrigues once and it reminded me of a time he said something negative about you. I figure he just puts everyone else down to try to centralize the worship to himself. He seems like an egotistical arrogant man. I think he rarely commended anyone for anything. I got an accolade from him once, and it seemed like a nice gesture, but I was already too fed up with the org at that point. The other accolade I remember him giving was to Joe Scrivens, his Cadillac washer-boy for a while. I remember Rev. Kekel angrily saying that the musicians should play softer while he is playing his guitar solo, and the way he said it he sounded like a spoiled brat. Who cares about your stupid worldly guitar solo? You're gonna interrupt a song that is supposed to be to glorify God to say that you want everyone to listen to you? At my last Conference in April 2009 on Monday night he was behaving like a wild man during a soft worship song, yelling at the congregation, something like, "Can you hear them? Can you hear them?" He had to steal the attention that was supposed to be reserved for Jesus Christ. I remember years back him pouting at a Conference because he didn't get to preach one night, then he finally got to preach. How many people have never preached at Conference even one time? I don't like his worldly style of electric guitar playing in the worship service myself, but I guess that could be considered just a matter of opinion.
Hey Chris, good to hear from you. Sorry about the cane thump on the head so many years ago. I was a product of my upbringing, though that's not an excuse. I really worked on changing my approach in recent times, and realized the NTCC environment was not conducive to healthy Christianity. The leadership is kanked beyond measure. So my wife and I decided to make a new start in God this past January.
Chris, thanks, but you don't have to call me Rev. You can call me Matt, but don't call me Mike, okay? If you do I might have a temper tantrum in my living room, like he does from behind the pulpit. :-) But I digress. We are all brethren that the Lord loves.
We're not in ministry according to NTCC standards, but we are involved in a new church, and we have been approached about future ministry opportunities.
Jeff, how you doing, my bro! Remember when we were in the servicemen's home together in Killeen and we raced on the way to base? I had Rev. Wales with me and you had Rev. Hinnis, and Wales was losing his mind because I wouldn't slow down? You were driving a Toronado with front wheel drive and I had that Mercury Marquis with a 351 Cleveland under the hood, and you blew my doors off. Those were some precious days, bro.
Don, good to hear from you. Deb and I have nothing but sweet memories of our time together in Augusta, GA. We hope we exhibited nothing but true Christianity to you. To answer your question, yes, there will be more to come. I'm coming out of the closet. LOL
And I apologize for drawing heat on the church when that chaplain guy came to inspect the serviceman's home in Oki. I really respected you a lot. You really made the serviceman's home fun. I have to say that.
I have to watch what I say about some ministers that are still in NTCC. I might say something about them one minute and then be on the same side of the fence with them in another. Before you know it, Rev. Kekel himself may be blogging on here against his own father in law! I'm really glad to hear that you are so soon finding opportunity to labor for the Lord again. God bless you, Sir.
Rev. Briggs,
Here is a link to our discussion. The one where you called me a bozo. I replied to some of your comments and I worked kind of hard on them. So I was hoping you could read them and respond. I think it deals with some of your insults against me. It's kind of hard to find so here's a link
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?postID=6677887095503828021&blogID=4237896034506560862&isPopup=false&page=2
Take care
You guys were awesome, Matt and Deb. If there ever was a time in my life when I needed to lighten up and enjoy Christianity, that was the time. Had around many a preacher that wanted to run the Servicemen's homes like bible schools. You guys lightened things up quite a bit and showed us that we could enjoy Christianity. What ever happened to Rev. Kocks(sorry about the spelling but that's how he spells it). I used to shoot pinecones off of his head with a BB gun. I remember he would take a can of right guard and spray you in the face with it and the beatings would commence. He was a glutton for punishment but he was a good brother.
I know all this sounds a little radical but the ntcc was a hostile environment. We were products of the environment that we were brought up in. I have to say that it was a welcome change at that point in my life. I think it would do everyone a little bit of good if they lightened up a bit and enjoyed life. It's hard to enjoy life when you are walking on egg shells all the time. I'm not advocating sin, but why does a Christian have to live such a boring life all the time? One might say, how is shooting pine cones off of someones head a good time? Well we all had our ways of venting and believe it or not I was amazed that he would trust me to not take his eyeball out and I didn't want to let him down. Is that warped or what?
Out of the 14 pastors that I endured, or that endured me, you were among the best and many of the memories and times we had will be with me the rest of my life. You did show us the fun side of Christianity and I also learned a lot from your ministry. I hope that I didn't contribute to some of those gray hairs I noticed you got.
Don and Ange
Jeff, I forgot to sign my name at the bottom of my post.
Go ahead and put it on the front. I pray it will open someone's eyes!
Deborah Shunk aka Sis Blumenthal
Remember me, you, and Billy Brown, driving to St. Louis, 1985? I had that Chevy Citation (that I thought was a good car) that ended up getting repossesed!
Deborah, I remember you singing "Through It All" at St. Louis & your singing was always a big blessing! --- MB
Deborah Shunk said...
Go ahead and put it on the front. I pray it will open someone's eyes!
Jeff said...
I will, probably this evening. Thanks for the heads up and I hope everything is going well with you and your husband. I would imagine it is.
Jeff
MB said...
Remember me, you, and Billy Brown, driving to St. Louis, 1985? I had that Chevy Citation (that I thought was a good car) that ended up getting repossessed!
Jeff said...
Repossessed? Imagine that. That was probably another one of the NTCCs favorite tricks. Tell people to leave everything to include their responsibilities. Tell people they can only work Mon - Fri from 9 to 5 and if it means having a car repossessed, you better pay your tithe, give in the offering and make a hefty pledge. Happens all the time in the NTCC unless you are Mike Kekel and in that case you just have everything handed to you on a platter because your father in law owns the corporation.
Jeff
Sounds like the kind of church I want to be a part of.
TBC
I think Jeff needs to do a NTCC version of PUNK'D...
"M.D. Reed
now known as Abaslom in the NTCC ranks."
Ha! I was Judas, Demas, and Joash all rolled into one.
Glad you took the red pill. It only gets better from here.
"Wales was losing his mind because I wouldn't slow down?"
Christian Wales? That's ironic; in BS he was legendary for his driving antics. One brother said he hit an exit ramp at about 110 because he was late for class.
Yeah, recklessly driving through the backstreets of St Louis or Graham, endangering the lives of those around you only to get to a class to hear someone talk about what? You "made it happen" just to hear - Fluff, fluff, plagiarize, fluff, fluff...huff and puff...
Anonymous said...
I think Jeff needs to do a NTCC version of PUNK'D...
Jeff said...
Yeah that would be funny. I wouldn't even know how to start it. Off topic: There has been some pretty good dialogue here lately. When people who've been with the NTCC for 25 and 32 years up and leave, one would be kind of foolhardy to ignore their reasons.
You can't tell me that people like Vic Johanson, Deborah Shunk, and Matthew Reed weren't dedicated to the Lord right up to and beyond the day they left the NTCC. They didn't leave the NTCC because they were like Absalom, or Demas, or Sapphira. No not at all. They finally got tired of the New Testament Christian Church and it's nepotism, partiality, double standards and abuse. They got tired of the abusive practices incorporated by the NTCC leadership. They got tired of having their lives robbed while watching NTCC wages being unfairly distributed in one direction; Graham Washington and specifically toward the Kekels and Kinsons and quite possibly a few other loyalists. They got tired of seeing their church getting run like a common real-estate company.
I'm sure they got tired of a whole lot more than I can possibly reiterate. Don't let the NTCC use you up; life is too short and precious.
Jeff
Reed was probably the biggest gun- totin', devil stompin', 4 wheel muddin', Davis lovin', cat runnin' over preacher they had in NTCC. To have been a fly on the wall in that final meeting...
Hey, the bottom line is M. Reed was as loyal as any NTCC Pastor there has ever been. He had to get treated real bad to have left after all those years. We were both at Ft. Hood in 1985, so he had to be with the NTCC for 26 or 27 years. For someone that loyal and dedicated to leave, there had to be an awful good reason and it had nothing to do with Absalom. That is just a bunch of nonsense.
Like I've said all along; the minute you walk out NTCC doors once and for all, NTCC personnel will smear your good name with no shame at all.
Jeff
I guess Rev. Briggs doesn't want to talk to me. I can understand why. That is NTCC's way of dealing with the truth. They ignore it. I don't understand why he gets so many accolades from people who have left. I will say that it is good that he is here because he represents the NTCC's slant on things and he is helping us to study more, and form our beliefs, but to say that he is a real man because of the way he stood up to Pastor Davis, and on and on... What did he do? He went in that room, talked to Pastor Davis, RW Davis tightened the screws in his head a little tighter, and he finished the meeting by saying, yes sir, no sir, ay sir! You are right, sir. May I have another, Sir. Now he is on here like a dying chicken whose owner just blew air into his eyeball, lashing out against us vehemently in the name of his owner. How is that noble? Now he is trying to cram tithe down our throats when Paul taught that the law was abolished! Paul rebuked Peter for doing that! I rebuke you, Rev. Briggs! Respond to my posts, why don't you? I'm pretty sure I know why you don't. You have been on here posting away over and over, but now I'm shooting down your arguments and all of a sudden, I hear nothing but crickets. I'm on the tithe thread. Did you not see my rebuttals to your arguments? Man up.
It's hard to prove something that was never commanded, (mandatory money payments), in the New Testament since the birth of the church in the book of Acts.
The things that REALLY are commanded we have absolutely no debate over, because it is ACTUALLY WRITTEN Duh...
They don't constantly try to reinforce and prop up a commandment that is ACTUALLY WRITTEN. It is what is NOT WRITTEN as a commandment in the New Testament since the birth of the church that they constantly try to "make stick" but it keeps falling off the wall.
Kris.. I will address you points later.. I do not have the time right now. Please do not interpret silence always as an unwillingness to talk. Just give me a little time I have a lot on my plate this week.
Whew!! That was like an all-out war against NTCC on the second page of the "Not about Souls" thread. Briggs put his foot in his mouth so many times, he resorted to temper-tantrums. He called me immature for slamming a chair before, but just look at some of the quotes from him on that thread. One might think he is gay from some of them.
RB said the following:
"when you come back tell your wife I said to spank you cuz your just a really BAAAAAAAAAAAD boy!"
RB also said:
"you haughty, pompous, petulant little man."
RB also said:
"If you enroll in a gym, do some push ups ...
...put some meat on your scrawny little bones"
Kris said...
I didn't know he was checking out my physique. What difference does it make how big I am? We were talking about tithe!
THEN, here's the funny part:
RB said this about Jeff:
"Anway back to discussing something with a big boy."
Wow! I guess I'm not Robert Briggs' type.
Here's something for you, Briggs. Just keep your hands off me if you're gay alright, and everything will be fine.
See folks, this is NTCC's way of dealing with people that expose their wrong teachings.
He tried saying that the Didache was written before the New Testament epistles. This is a book that was not included in the canon by the earliest authorities universally. It was highly contested. Briggs seems to think that now in 2011 it should be considered as written by the Apostles themselves. He is so confused.
He thought Ignatius was Polycarp's disciple, and that he taught that tithe. Ignatius was NOT Polycarp's disciple. He was instructed by the apostle John. Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp and I pointed out that Irenaeus taught that tithing was NOT practiced in the New Testament. And I asked him to furbish us with some quote from Ignatius where he taught that it was mandatory for us to tithe in the NT. He never did give us that.
He tried twisting Gal 3:17 which says that the PROMISE to Abraham is still available to us who believe in Jesus Christ, and he tried to interpret it to meant that all the laws that were given to Abraham STILL apply in the New Testament.
It's laughable to think about all the things he said on that thread. But in the end he wouldn't talk to me. He just got huffy-puffy and mad as I showed the quotes above. Where were you TB? You would have been dying laughing at all his perversions of the Gospel.
"So someone doesn't want to go out somewhere because they don't sense the call to do so has always been supported."
You really are ignorant about the reality of the "call." RW has stated publicly "If I tell you to pray about a place, don't you think God has already told me first?" And also: "God won't tell you anything he hasn't told me first." He cultivated the image of one who has the definitive take on every nuance of God's will. He claimed apostleship, and told us that the Lord had spoken to him audubly and that he had seen angels with his own eyes. He said he was, in addition to an apostle, a pastor, teacher, evangelist, and prophet, and that all nine of the gifts of the Spirit had operated through him. He said that he could read us like a book, and knew us better than we knew himself. Such nonsense was carefully administered to condition us to unquestionably accept anything he might say. Numerous preachers have approached him with urges to go to this or that city, only to have their desires shot down and another agenda inserted in their place.
Now all of a sudden RW is just some guy who loves God and did his best, and we're all free to have our own differing opinions, blah blah blah. I've never seen such a blatant whitewash and disinformation campaign. They're trying to reinvent themselves in front of everyone's very eyes, and RW hasn't even kicked the bucket yet. The more "old timers" they run off, the less flak they get regarding these changes, and in the end there will be a megachurch that has little resemblance to the NTCC we know and used to love. That's actually a positive thing, but the fact that change is effected through stealth indicates that it's being done for strategic motives rather than repentance. "Meet the new boss...same as the old boss..."
Why does RB resort to taunting, name calling, and trying to insult Kristopher? Nothing Christian about that.
"Kristofer," I mean. But why is it that RB resorts to calling Kristofer names and trying to insult him?
I think I kind of egged him on, but it's just that I don't want him coming on here with his "I'm a priest and a theologian" attitude. I am trying to show him that he doesn't know hardly anything yet about the Bible regardless of how many years he has been in that org as a so-called minister of the Gospel. Ministry begins when you leave NTCC, and start all over again. Try to look at the Bible without all the presuppositions from NTCC, that the church is a business, the church doesn't do charity, all Christians pay tithe, you don't care how your brother is doing, so why ask, "How ya doing, bro?"
Then all of a sudden you understand that the Church and Jesus Himself cared about the physical as well as the spiritual needs of their own brothers and sisters. Then if you plan missionary work, you might incorporate some plans to help the poor people that you reach. You might want to take up a contribution to help the poor brothers and sisters abroad so they don't have to wonder where their next meal will come from. You might consider not buying a big church building in a local assembly when you only have 100 people or less. Maybe you could have small gatherings in homes and rent a place on Sundays. Then you won't need to enforce mandatory tithes to pay for all that overhead, and you might be able to be full-time from voluntary offerings. But what's wrong with working? Paul did. The rabbis thought work was good. They decided you should pray a third of the day, read a third, and work a third.
But in order to rightly interpret the scriptures you can not be biased to one viewpoint. You have to be willing to change your predetermined outlook, and it is just hard to do when you know that you HAVE to preach a certain way in order to be accepted in an org. This is why I just teach my wife's family and by God's grace we will grow from there. In response to your insult about my teaching my wife's family, Rev. Briggs, by God's grace, we are growing! Thank you, Jesus! Devil, get thee behind me!
I've heard RB criticize John Hagee, pastor of CornerStone Church in San Antonio, Texas. Why does RB criticize John Hagee?
MB because John Hagee makes 32 Millions dollars, PLUS book earnings, plus songs, plus pays his wife something like 240K a year plus his daughter 120K.. plus his doctrinal belief that thithe is 20% 10% to the church and 10% to the preacher... that nuff said?
Hey Mike... why don't you look back at the thread and see how it all started.. why are you so hypocritical as to denounce me calling a man by his charicteristics when I engage in an honest debate. Look at his taunts... was that Christian in your book... I don't need to prove anythign to you or anyone else on this blog.
Why is it that you people say I want someone form NTCC to expalin this.. or NTCC false doctrine teaches that and then when someone actually speaks up.. shows something... its like you pull out all the stops. You don't even have the courage to sign your name to your posts and yet you constantly reveal your own identitiy. Get real... get a pair of gonads...
Hey Kris.. if you think I put my foot in my mouth how about you.. you actually thought Adam lived 400 years before Moses... how stupid was that?
You try to hold a conversation with 5 different people at the same time and see if you don't make a mistake or two along the way... Just read your post below and notice your own typos' you little pharisee. Let me tell you something... you throw a chair in or around me and my kid again you little punk and it won't be some big black guy running after you...and for the record I can pray it through afterward...
So John Hagee is criticized because he is at 32 million plus and you now call Kristofer, "a little punk." I've signed my initials plenty of times to my posts.
If I don't do it everytime then I lack courage? This is not a boxing ring. I've been curious about your criticism of John Hagee for years. And I still don't know why you resort to insults and name calling?
MB
John Hagee has quite a critical following, and I'm not thrilled about his salary either. I know at a minimum last I read he gets 450,000 for just a church salary.Compare this to Billy Grahams 175,000. He doesn't preach every Sunday...so I am curious of how that factors out. His political jabs from the pulpit bother me and this was pre-Obama. I love eschatology as much as the next person, but he preaches about it frequently.
However, I do like how the church is deeply rooted in the community. The members and staff are extremely friendly so the church feels small. Lastly, I appreciate the churches love and support for Israel which seems to be lacking in many churches.
I am too curious about tithe. God has laid it on my heart to give in tithe and offerings. No preacher has ever had to tell me to start tithing, I just did it because I wanted to see God's work prosper.Even though it is not in the New Testament verbatim, I think it is a fair principle between the rich and the poor to try to give at least 10%...that's my personal conviction.
ns
Thanks for the insight NS. You really made some good points. You are a cheerful giver and God loves you. I believe we all enjoy giving to the church we attend, I know I do. Have a great day. --- MB
"...that's my personal conviction."
Tithing is fine as a personal conviction, but nonexistent as a command.
Vic J. said,
"Tithing is fine as a personal conviction, but nonexistent as a command."
The sad fact of the matter Vic is statistically most church going Christians only give 2% of their income.
We can all agree on that giving must be a purposeful act, done cheerfully, and to support the work of God this includes paying the Pastor/Workers a decent living wage.
1 Tim. 5:17,18; Gal. 6:6; Lk. 10:7-10
Briggs the big mouth wannabe priest and theologian continues to put his foot in his mouth by saying...
"Hey Kris.. if you think I put my foot in my mouth how about you.. you actually thought Adam lived 400 years before Moses... how stupid was that"
Show me the quote where i said that? You seem to have amnesia. You are always misquoting me. You must apply the same amnesia to your Biblical interpretation, because you are always messing up what the Apostles say. I wish you would resign from your post as a preacher until you can demonstrate that you actually understand the Gospel. See, this is the problem with NTCC, folks. There are hardly any tests in their seminary (if there were, I suppose it wouldn't matter, because they would just be tested on whether they understand a bunch of lies), and they just give you a diploma and send you on your way whether you have demonstrated that you actually understand what you are supposed to be teaching, or not. Every good disciple should know that a minister can do more damage eternally than an unskilled poorly educated doctor. Why should ministers be allowed to be bishops when they have not even demonstrated that they can handle the Word of God skillfully. Briggs, whatever you say, the whole discussion is recorded. YOU were discussing NOAH, then you said Moses who was 5000 years removed. I thought that was a bit large of an estimate from NOAH to Moses.
ns said ...
"God has laid it on my heart to give in tithe and offerings. No preacher has ever had to tell me to start tithing, I just did it because I wanted to see God's work prosper."
also, Anonymous said ....
"The sad fact of the matter Vic is statistically most church going Christians only give 2% of their income.
We can all agree on that giving must be a purposeful act, done cheerfully, and to support the work of God this includes paying the Pastor/Workers a decent living wage."
Kris said...
These are great points. I totally agree with both of you. Christians should want to give to a GOOD Christian, LOVING Church that demonstrates love for their people and also for those who are without, by using some of that money to help their own brothers and sisters. If NTCC was the type of Church to show where our money goes and that it was going to help the poor filipina bible school students and ministers (not talking about the fat American missionaries who reportedly and obviously eat very well) but the poor converts there- as this is one of the few 3rd world countries in the org where they have supposed missions, then YES! I would love to give more than 10 per cent of my hard earned cash. But I would rather start a different church where I can direct where my funds go (which I did, and which Briggs ridicules me for) and if I want to buy something to help them to better their lives, like help them to start a cattle ranch in the country, so they don't have to live in the slums of Cebu.
Oh, Briggs, you asked me how is the church doing? Great. Ya, I teach them online. It works great. I thank God for the technology. Paul wrote letters to his churches. Do you think he wouldn't use the technology for COMMUNICATION available today if he lived back then? And we had more last Sunday present than the Sundays prior, THANKS GOD! And I didn't open up the Bible share with, "All Christians pay tithe!" They are poor. They don't need to pay me. I am rich compared to them. I help them financially. See how that concept works in a loving Christian church, brah?
See Briggs, if I was 'stupid' like you say I was, if you read what I said, I admitted that it probably was a long time between Noah and Moses considering all the generations recorded between them. You however have made a MYRIAD of mistakes in your lame attempt at Bible exegesis. I categorically showed where you were way way way off on many points. Congratulations on finding one for me. The score is about 50 to 1 now. One for the devil and 50 for Jesus.
Briggs the valiant man of war said...
"Just read your post below and notice your own typos' you little pharisee. Let me tell you something... you throw a chair in or around me and my kid again you little punk and it won't be some big black guy running after you...and for the record I can pray it through afterward..."
Kris said...
Briggs let me just say that I am not impressed or scared. You don't bother me one bit. You can't stand up to me with your wits, so you want to threaten me with your brawn? I don't fight, buddy. Jesus taught me not to harm anyone. You are so far from being Christian. With one comment after another, you just seal your own coffin. Just stick around here a little longer, Briggs, so we can see the true spirit of NTCC.
Your threats would be impressive in another arena like a UFC blog or something. You show the fruits of your spirit. You shouldn't allow your anger to build to the point of violence. I did not do anything threatening to your children, so knock it off.
Briggs, remember... Christians don't have any buttons.
"The sad fact of the matter Vic is statistically most church going Christians only give 2% of their income."
That may be a sad fact, or it may be propaganda--how do you measure the giving of those who obey the commandment not to let their left hand know what the right hand does? Regardless, it has no bearing on the truth that scripture has never commanded Christians to pay tithe. If a person wishes to do so out of personal conviction, I applaud them. But no one should be shaken down for "the tithe" by these modern Pharisees.
If people aren't giving enough to support the church, the solution isn't to make up new doctrine to guilt them into forking over more. One problem is that most churches have a bloated overhead caused by subscription to the myth that all of these material things are necessary for the "work of God." Look around. Does what you see in the church world today remotely resemble that which is set forth in the New Testament? I regard it as a Christian duty to refrain from financing that kind of vanity and vexation of spirit.
Sorry Briggs, I feel kind of bad. In a way a feel sorry for you, because you are right you are highly outnumbered. You are right. We were both off by at least a thousand years I think as far as Moses and Noah. I don't want to be against you, but I just think of all the people that you try to bully on here that have not perhaps done the research that others may have done. I am just trying to show you the same thing that got you so mad at me to begin with, and that has been manifested through our dialogue together so far, that you are still a babe in Christ and have need to truly learn the Gospel message and so many of it's teachings accurately. So was I when I was a faithful tithe paying NTCC church member and minister for a combined roughly 13 years. I am trying to show you that you have to get all that garbage out of your mind and start to interpret the Bible from an unbiased viewpoint. It's like right now, you can't see clearly, because you have to ignore so many scriptures in order to believe what you have been taught, or you have to twist the scriptures to make them mean what you want them to mean, or take single verses completely out of context and hope no one reads the verses before and after them to support the teachings.
Look Kris, there are oodles of theologians out there that agree with my main objections and assertions. Please don't try to assert your great knowneldge above these highly esteemed men of God. We have a difference of opinion and a difference in faith. I have proven my point to anyone that is objective. They have enough to make them consider. That's the goal. It is comments like "your still a babe in christ" that just get under my skin becuase son, I was working for God before you were saved. That doesn't mean that I think you are foolish. You seem quite intelligent. But you have a great amount of Hubris that, quite frankly, doesn't jib with your experience. When you dialogue with me all I ask for is civility.
Hey.. Kris.. my son was standing by my side three rows to the front and two chairs to your left.
Kris said
Christians don't have buttons...
True.. sow what happened to make you so antagonistic? Was that justified anger but mine was not....
50... wow.. little hyperbole isn't it? And when you pointed out my mistakes I acknowledged them. They were honest.. so agian I ask I made 50 mistkaes.. you better make that right there kimosabe
Beal.. you are a two faced individual.. all nice nice one minute then back stabbing the next....
Use your same logic when people start getting insulting. Why not be balanced and fair instead of being as lopsided as an old matress. You know exactly why I say what I say about Hagee.. and I don't back up from that. You just like to rake the muck. You said a few weeks ago that you were going to start signing your posts.. you just can't seem to realize you have a wiring voice that I can pick up on.
I am still looking for the article I referenced earlier but here is what I've got so far.
From a News Article on Hagee
According to income tax statements GETV filed with the Internal Revenue Service, the nonprofit organization drew $18.3 million in revenue in 2001, the most recent year the organization submitted a return to the IRS. That year, Hagee's total compensation package from the TV ministry and the church amounted to more than $1.25 million.
As the nonprofit organization's president, Hagee drew $540,000 in compensation, as well as an additional $302,005 in compensation for his position as president of Cornerstone Church, according to GETV's tax statements.
He also received $411,561 in benefits from GETV, including contributions to a retirement package for highly paid executives the IRS calls a "rabbi trust," so named because the first beneficiary of such an irrevocable trust was a rabbi.
So how come folks who criticize Hagee aren't denounced as "jealous?" That's the response to anyone who points out the conspicuous consumption practiced by the NTCC leadership. Sounds like Hagee just perfected what they're trying to do.
Briggs the peacemaker says ...
"When you dialogue with me all I ask for is civility."
Kris said...
Peace? What peace? When the corruptions of your church are so many?
Don't ask me for peace! Think about what you're sayin', Robert! I'm the guy that's so fed up with your leaders that I slammed a chair in the Conference! And you want me to talk peace with you? WHAT PEACE, BRIGGS?? WHAT PEACE?? Why didn't you tell RW Davis, Is it peace, Pastor? When he slugged Rev Reed in the belly at a Conference? Was your kid three pews away from him?
I didn't even assault anyone!! But he did! You are standing right between proverbial rounds that are aimed at the likes of Davis, Kekel, Olson and others. Duck ya head or you are gonna get hit, too! Fall behind us or get out of the way.
I was probably ten feet away from the scene when Pastor Davis punched Rev. Reed in the belly. And he did not look like he was playing. And Rev. Reed DID look like he was very hurt, physically.
I was standing about five feet away when RW Davis commenced to punching an older man than him in the arms until he was wincing in pain, saying Come on!! stop???!!!
Is it peace with him???
Rev. Briggs said...
Hey.. Kris.. my son was standing by my side three rows to the front and two chairs to your left.
Kris said
Good... I'm glad you had a good seat.
So asking why a person resorts to insults and name calling and asking why you criticize John Hagee makes me a "back stabber?" I thought I was being quite civil.
I was working for God before you were saved. That doesn't mean that I think you are foolish. You seem quite
From RB,. that right there is ntcc pride all over it. I have been out working and slaving at some ntcc "work" longer then you. So I know more then you. Next will be,what have you done for God? As if they KNOW everything that you have or have not done for God!
RB,
Why are you so quick to criticize the financial dealings of Hagee? At least his dealings are legally documented, I highly doubt he is getting any cash kick-backs.
Why do you not question the extravagance of Davis and Kekel? You have been rather quiet on that issue, it seems to me that Hagee may be a greedy man but at least it is all public record and he is not hiding anything that we know of. While on the other hand, all appearances suggest that Davis is an underhanded illegal crook and Kekel is taking illegal land from the corporation.....and....he will never disclose his salary to anyone, why is that? Do you know what his salary is? We know what Hagee's is!!
I could make the case that Hagee is simply succesful and your maybe jealous? But why the double standard of not questioning your own leadership? I really would like to know, in all seriousness!!
Thanks,
TB
TB, you and I have been at this Blog for probably a few years now and believe me when I say this. I genuinely respect you and your resolute stance on this blog. I'm writing this so you know where I'm coming from with what I'm about to write.
Really think about Pastor Briggs i.e. RB for a minute. He is the only current NTCC minister in good standing who has had the nerve to even post on this blog without going anonymously. There is a lot to be said for that. I genuinely respect the man. Whether he is right and I'm wrong or visa versa, in my opinion that is not an issue with Pastor Briggs.
Lets face it, all kinds of churches throughout the world are really messed up and I can't possibly expect everyone in the Christian world to think the way I do or see the Bible the same way that I do. Now yes, with you and I it's personal with the NTCC only because the NTCC made it personal with all their shenanigans.
Having said all that, Pastor Briggs comes on here and gets hammered by virtually everyone to include me, but for some reason he has the character to stand up for what he believes right here on quote, "enemy territory". Even if every last one of us are always right, (which is not the case) there is no way we can legitimately expect Pastor Briggs to completely forsake his leadership openly right here on this blog. They guy is not just thinking about himself but he has a family to take care of and a much as I hate the NTCCs ways, I can't with a good conscience expect Pastor Briggs just to pack up his bags and forsake the NTCC with a family in hand with no direction what so ever. And not only that, if the man, (for example) truly believes in mandatory tithe, I don't expect him to simply role over and say, "Yeah, I guess you guys are right and I'm wrong, woe is me". I wouldn't have said that when I was in the NTCC because I definitely believed that paying tithe was mandatory. I cited some of the same scriptures that he does and believed it.
Pastor Briggs shows more Character than virtually all of his spineless counterparts and NTCC leaders. They wouldn't even entertain us because they think we are beneath them. Pastor Briggs really isn't that way. It's true my friend. Whether I agree with him or not, I have a lot of respect for the guy for coming on here like he does while practically sacrificially taking the pounding that everyone throws at him. If more NTCCers and NTCC leaders where like him the NTCC certainly wouldn't have quite as many problems I don't think. I could be wrong but that is my belief because he would at least hear what people have to say without simply shutting them down.
Pastor Briggs has admitted that some of what we say he feels is accurate. And if he doesn't agree I really can't blame him for stating that.
I really hate what the NTCC has done to people and I could be wrong, but I believe that Pastor Briggs is more so a part of the solution rather than being exclusively a part of the problem.
The bottom line Bro is that you and I are in this battle together hand and hand. You have family in the NTCC and my family was abused in the NTCC and I don't take that lightly which is exactly why I've continued with this blog as long as I have and I don't plan to stop. The word is getting out.
Continued below...
The NTCC is stupid. It will take 5000 visitors to make one Brother Reed. Good faithful people don't come along everyday. Not only that but one disgruntled Brother Reed or Sister Shunk which the NTCC foolishly abused can do more damage to the NTCC's agenda than 1000 NTCC so called soul winners can fix. If the NTCC is ever foolish enough to blatantly abuse and totally misuse Pastor Briggs or his family?
The damage that man could do would be catastrophic. The NTCC will implode unless they make some serious changes and that is not a prophesy. It's just a logical fact based upon deductive reasoning. Let the NTCC keep abusing people! They most certainly will pick the wrong one some day. Look what Denis pulled off. It can get a whole lot worse than that.
The NTCC is certainly going to pick the wrong one to abuse someday. The are stupid like that.
Jeff
Good point Jeff,
I have started to look at RB and many others in the ntcc as potential X-members of the ntcc. They may not turn to "the dark side" but when they do you have folks like the Reeds. While they were in people blogged about them and many others. When they got out we welcomed them as we would Rev. Briggs or any other ntcc minister. There are good people in the ntcc and I agree with your point, Jeff. Tithe is probably the most hammered doctrine of all doctrines that the ntcc preaches.
If Rev. Briggs or anyone in the ntcc was to change their view on tithe they would be run out on a rail. When I was in the ntcc, I subscribed hook line and sinker to every doctrine they taught. I still to this day believe some of it is right. What's the difference if you pay tithe by command or willingly? The same amount of money goes to the same place. In my opinion it leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths, and it is a form of control. If you control their wallet you can control them.
We look at people who leave as if they are really great people for leaving and we look at folks like Rev. Briggs as evil because he chooses to stay in. We've all been there. If Rev. Briggs chooses to leave we will accept him and befriend him just like anyone else that leaves. I have very strong opinions against the ntcc, and I have splattered my whole personal life history all over the blogosphere when I didn't have to because I want people to know how harmful this organization can be. But to people in the org. the ntcc is the only thing in life that makes sense. I have a great deal of respect for Rev. Briggs because he stands up for what he believes in. We require transparency and he has been transparent as far as I can tell.
I don't think your request that we be civil is too much to ask, but it does go against human nature. I know it gets heated on both sides, and all are guilty including myself of name calling and such. I had to bid out of the tithe conversation because it just seemed like we were hammering the same points over and over again.
That's my two cents for what it is worth. Shake hands and come out swinging.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange said ...
"That's my two cents for what it is worth. Shake hands and come out swinging."
Don and Ange,
That was a good one. I think that was one problem with NTCC. Any time you just wanted to plain talk about the Bible- not even debate- just talk about God and the Bible, it seemed like people would look at you funny, like you were trying to be the pastor or something.
I think one healthy thing about blogs is it gives people a chance to voice their opinion and it doesn't matter what level you are on. There is no hierarchy so to speak. The only hierarchy is truth and principles. If what you are saying is truth, it warrants respect. If you stand for good principles, then your words warrant respect. It's not based on whether you are the PASTOR, and everybody has to shut up when you are speaking, and you get a cross look and a scowl when you don't just bob your chicken when they tell you this is the way it is.
It is a healthy thing to be able to debate the scriptures in a civil way. I'm trying to work on that myself (doing it in a civil way), and I think I can really learn from Jeff and Vic in that category. Jeff is quite a stellar character. He is like the opposite of Rev. Kekel. Rev. Kekel has to hide what he says from us, by making his website for ministers for discussing things like people who left, a secret website. You and I can't even get on it let alone leave a comment. Yet I am pretty sure they are talking about us. Why? Because I stumbled across a link to a minister's blog for NTCC recently and in the website description that the search engine put there I saw words from my old blog on it. It was the KJV-only preachers post from the blog I removed and replaced with my In Defense of the Gospel blog.
The fact that an NTCC minister can say all he wants on here speaks volumes about our integrity, and especially Jeff's. This isn't about information control. This is about truth and principles.
Jeff,
I agree with what you said, but I am not really seeing your point. Am I not to ask the hard questions that need to be asked? I may not be expecting a text book answer, it may just cause him to think about it for a few minutes...I was sincere in my question. I cannot understand how one can blast another preacher for inappropriate financial dealings and not call into question the things he must see at ntcc.
For the record, If I seem quick on here it is because I am extremely busy with work and have also gone back to school full time and just don't have the time to spend like I used to. (wish I did!)
TB
Maybe Senator Grassley needs to investigate the NTCC like he did Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn.
Kris said,
"That was a good one. I think that was one problem with NTCC. Any time you just wanted to plain talk about the Bible- not even debate- just talk about God and the Bible, it seemed like people would look at you funny, like you were trying to be the pastor or something"
Don and Ange said,
You are right about that. It was unheard of not just to disagree but just to ask questions that took a discussion in a different direction than the pastor wanted to go. You've heard the expression, "There's no such thing as a stupid question"? Well there is in the ntcc. If you asked the man of God in some of the churches I went this question: "Do I have to pay tithe on my tax return"?
These are some of the answers that I have heard. "Is it an increase"? "You can't out-give God". "You didn't have a problem cashing your pay check and giving it to the devil, why would you have a problem paying tithe on your tax return"?
All the while they were jacking people up for not paying every penny on the gross amount of your paycheck. I was told by Medrano that RWD taught that you should pay tithe on your tax return. Pop Gaylord said you shouldn't because you've already paid it. Pop Gaylord also told me you can claim your tithe and offerings on your taxes while many preachers said that RWD taught against that. His logic was "why use God as an excuse to get money back from the Government." I thought Pop's logic was more sensible and that's the advise I followed but dared not to question the other so called, "men of God".
Saying all this, Rev. Briggs has stated that he does not teach paying tithe on tax returns and I would venture to say that he doesn't ram tithe down the throats of his congregation. He has stated that many of his church members don't pay tithe yet they still come around. If he was a tithe or hell preacher, he'd probably lose many of those. I have questioned him about the "All Christians pay tithe and give in offerings doctrine". He believes that it is a Christians responsibility to pay tithe and if you are a Christian you will pay tithe.
The way tithe came across the pulpit when we were in might be different than the way Rev. Briggs presents it. I don't know for sure because I'm not there. We speak from our experiences of the ways in which we have seen the subject incorrectly taught. I believe RB is wrong but that's my opinion even though I feel scripture supports my belief more than his. That doesn't make me right or wrong and it doesn't make any of us better than anyone else.
He probably feels that we misinterpret the bible because everything he stands for revolves around what the ntcc teaches him and there is no latitude or at least there wasn't when we were in. You are either for them or against them.
This is where I'm coming from, but saying this I believe also that people have a right to say what's on their mind and this blog demonstrates that. It's not my place and I'm not trying to tell anyone what to think or say. I'm expressing my thoughts on the subject and my opinions. If I'm wrong, it'll be the first time. jk
Don and Ange
Morning Don. Your statements are warranted and clear. But I would clarify something. WHen you say "He probably feels that we misinterpret the bible" I would have to say in some cases yes. But at times, in certain people's presentation of things, it seems as if they throw things out just because they are "NTCC". No mininterpretation there, just rejections of all things organizational related. I think that is dangerous. Maybe it's because in some cases that I know of the shift seems so drastic and fast that I can't wrap my mind around how people can be one thng one week and another the next (so to speak). If I left my organization tomorrow I would not be suddenly moved on these doctrines I debate with you guys. I believe them and not becuase they were taught to me but because of my own 1. Study 2. Prayerful consideratiion 3. convictions. They might be "theirs" but they are mine too.
But that goes back I think to the "silence" being kept by so many. We've had, it was short lived, a ministers group before where we could dicuss doctrine in a private setting and believe me I was not the guy getting kudo's for being just like everyone else.
But why didn't some of the preachers that are now "out" who were on that chat say something then. Why didn't they present their cases? I just have a problem with that. Just like I believe I should put my name out now, I did it then. Just as I discuss hard topics openly now, I did then. But in some cases people (within my organization) thought I was some kind of fault finder when we were asked to bring our questions and hard topics forward and I had been asked personally to start the discussion.
People on both sides of this thing are scared... they need to learn to their own master they stand or fall. When you hold everything in, week after week, year after year, and then leave and come "out" it doesn't look good from where I sit. It makes you look week. Anyone that was in that Ministers Group knows what my issues where with certain doctrines and certain practices. Some of those practices were changed as a result of our discussions. But where was the support back then from some of the now 'eXer's" that by their own admission they were struggling during that time. Why didn't they lend their support in a reformative way instead of keeping silence to save face... only to leave later and remove any ability they might have had to effect a positive change.
If you have about 45 minutes listen to this sermon. I don't claim it's originality, at least not the title and central idea. But it is exactly how I feel about this whole issue of "schism" in the body of Christ (and that is not meaning solely the NTCC it's the Christian church as a whole.
http://ntccpasadenatx.org/blogs2/?page_id=147&sermon_id=74
I mentioned to my church last week "If you ask a Muslim what religion is the biggest threat to your faith they would say the Christians and the Jews". If you ask a Jew the same question they would respond "the Christians and the Muslims". But if you ask a Chrisitian they would say "the Baptist, the Presbyterians, the Methodist, the Catholics, the Pentecostals, etc. etc. etc."
Christianity is a house divided. We need to put away our differences, put down our swords, unite behind a common truth "It is Christ and Him Cucified" and leave the rest to Him.
TB asked...
Am I not to ask the hard questions that need to be asked?
Jeff said...
Sure, absolutely. I just understand that there are limits to what Pastor Briggs can say and I understand that. The fact is the man is with the NTCC and I don't expect him to leave because it's not always quite that simple. It took me years to determine that my departure was necessary. Until that time, I wasn't going to say much of anything negative with regards to the NTCCs doctrinal statement or the NTCC leadership. I didn't have a problem calling out a specific pastor, but not the org as a whole or their beliefs which at that time were also my beliefs.
What I'm saying here is that Pastor Briggs is still a Pastor with the NTCC in good standing, (as far as I can tell) and there are limits to what kind of responses can be expected of him. That is just natural and he has a family to worry about who are also a part of the NTCC with friends and associates which have been established for years. His actions and statements can effect his family and of course not just him.
So when hard questions are asked, I truly don't think he can be expected to answer all of them or take our stance on all of them and I wouldn't expect him to. Hey I'm my own man and I would expect him to be also. If he were any different I wouldn't respect him, not that it would matter because I don't care who respects me. Do you kind of see what I'm saying TB?
Thanks for being around Bro.
Jeff
Jeff, I think TB might be referring to MB's question to me about Hagee. It is possible I over reacted. I say possible because I don't see where that question came from in light of what we were saying in the discussion. MB just came out of left feild with a statement about me talking about Hagee when we were not speaking at all about ministers. It seemed to me at the time as if he was simply trying to Rake the muck because it came out of left field. No "Briggs can I ask you something" or warning in anyway that he had a question "bothering him" just bamm... and in truth (I AM NOT TRYING TO DRAG UP A DEAD HORSE HERE JUST MAKING A POINT) I had stated to Kris early on the day before that I was willing to discuss things with him if he would keep the personal attacks from his postings. It helps keep emotions out of it. In short I warned him and he felt the warning was a challenge possibly.
In any event. TB I understand your hard questions. Even Sheba had them.. .but I ain't no Solomon. I do what I can when I can. Somethings I can not answer, somethings I feel should not be answered in a public forum, and somethings I don't like the answer too... is that revealing enough? But at least I ANSWER where others do not. And I have answerd for 6 years now with regularity and, for the most part, consistency. My theology continues to "evolve" (See I believe in evolution - lol) and in part it is because of "debate" I think it is healthy. But getting all riled up so my eye lids start twitching is not physically healthy or spiritually healthy. And believe me.. my eye lids got twitching the other day! I hate that about myself, but I think it's my Scottish blood. Whatever it is take it for what you will.
Thanks for your willingess to try to defuse some of this stuff Jeff. I do appreciate that.
So is Briggs getting all ecumenical on us now? Would he fellowship with other ministers outside of NTCC? Would he work together with the ministry in another church if he (not the org) had the same goal(e.g. helping victims of Katrina, food bank, etc.)?
He makes it sound like "raking the muck" or muckraking as Teddy Roosevelt would say is all bad -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muckraker
"Christianity is a house divided. We need to put away our differences, put down our swords, unite behind a common truth "It is Christ and Him Cucified" and leave the rest to Him."
Robert, that sounds good, but it won't be possible as long as churches like NTCC insist on adding all their kooky manmade doctrines into the mix. I'm good with "Christ and Him Crucified," but when it comes to "All Christians pay tithe," or nonsense like the thief on the cross going to hell, not so much. However, the typical NTCC response to those who don't accept every jot and tittle of their peculiar interpretation is total rejection and demonization.
I'm open to fellowship with anyone who acknowledges saving faith, but there is no reciprocation when the other party refuses because of some fake "holiness" doctrine that isn't even in the bible. NTCC is the entity which has consistently refused to accept people belonging to other churches as even being Christians. They are the source of the strife, not those who have finally been pressed out of measure enough to flee longstanding and chronic abuse.
RB, once again, I have no bitter animosities towards you. We all make mistakes and learn from them, and all things still work together for good to those that love God.
I was curious about why you felt the way you did about John Hagee for years. Even though I don't agree with you on mandatory specific amount cash gifts to the church, (or your not a Christian), doctrine;
I still think in many many ways you are a very energetic intelligent entrepreneur leader/pastor that cares for people. I appreciate and thank you again for all the good times we did have together.
I also thank all the different ones in the church that were a blessing to me. I would still like to have you as my friend on Facebook! --- MB
Anon said this
So is Briggs getting all ecumenical on us now? Would he fellowship with other ministers outside of NTCC? Would he work together with the ministry in another church if he (not the org) had the same goal(e.g. helping victims of Katrina, food bank, etc.)?
RB Says
Watch this video and it answers your question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojwGCPQTcI4
Send me a friend request MB.. but keep this stuff off please that's all I ask.
After our service during Huricaine Ike, the Houston Food bank asked me to be their Pasadena Area distribution center. I was all for it, and began gearing up when they informed me that to do so we would have to majorly modify our church to accomodate (i.e. walk in freezers, food pantry specifically being built. etc.) the cost was more then we could bear so we had to decline. We are however, still on their emergancy relief list. As well as with the Red Cross, and Salvation Army. During our food distribution that one week alone we feed close to 6,000 meals as well as distributing MRE's, Water, Ice, Produce.
We got... some of our chairs (which we put out for old people and weomen to sit on) stolen (thank God some of the people that were being fed chased down the truck and made them bring the chairs back. And we came in one day to find a dog wrapped in a blanket, with it's neck broken and it's head folded backwards... STILL ALIVE on our door step. It was not bleeding... it had not been hit... it was tortured.....
From the many people you see in the pictures about 5 came back to say "Thank you". It was an eye opening experience.. but I would od it again in a heart beat if the need arose.
Rev. Briggs said...
"If I left my organization tomorrow I would not be suddenly moved on these doctrines I debate with you guys."
Kris said...
I feel the same way now. I try to be careful not to just reject something just because NTCC preaches it. I recently was in a dialogue on my blog with a good brother who left NTCC. I appreciate dialoguing with him, because we both kind of keep each other in check in some ways I think. At one time I was considering Oneness and we discussed it on my old blog, and I don't think the Father IS the Son, like the Oneness do. He in turn seems to be leaning a little towards Calvinism and I tried to show him why I don't believe in Calvinism, or the other hybrid soteriological schools of thought.
In interpreting the Bible, you have to do what you can to interpret in an unbiased way. If you are upset with your denomination you left, you still have to think rationally, and don't allow your feelings, personal opinions, and personal desires of what you WANT the Bible verse to mean to cloud your vision.
By the way, I'm part Scottish. I wonder if that explains my problem with my temper at times while blogging!
Probably not... I just need to cool it, I think. It's hard sometimes when you get in that mode where you just want the person to admit you are right. But people don't just abandon their beliefs in a moment's notice. That would actually be irresponsible in itself even if the belief is wrong. If you have been a Christian this long believing that way, then you should carefully review the facts and make a careful decision with your own soul before you just say, Okay you're right!
Thanks RB. I appreciate your friendship. I'm nothing without the help of God and many others!
--- last comment --- MB
Robert, it doesn't look like you are on Facebook anymore as an individual. They have you as a "Public Figure," which I could add to my page favorites but I can't add you as my friend.
Oh well... If you know how to get around that then send me a friend request but I don't see a friend request option on your public figure page... --- MB
Rev. Briggs said...
"If I left my organization tomorrow I would not be suddenly moved on these doctrines I debate with you guys."
This is wise. Even though I have departed far from many NTCC doctrinal positions, the change was gradual. It was only after the passage of time that I could examine these teachings more rationally and without the constant programming endemic to the org. The biblical rule for controversial subjects is "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Persuasion is biblical, but browbeating isn't, and that's what NTCC constantly unleashed on us. However, once a person does leave, the absence of manipulation usually does lead to a radical reassessment of many cherished perspectives, often resulting in their demise. It's a mistake to think one remains unaffected by the NTCC propaganda machine. Get away from its constant noise and clarity will ensue.
RB said "After our service during Huricaine Ike..."
http://www.salvationarmyhouston.org/releases/Media%20Alert%20Canteen%20Locations.pdf
Pastor Briggs said...
During our food distribution that one week alone we feed close to 6,000 meals as well as distributing MRE's, Water, Ice, Produce.
Jeff said...
WOW!!! Now that is Brotherly love. That is good stuff Pastor Briggs. That is what being a Christian is all about.
I never heard of anything like tha in the NTCC. Good stuff.
Jeff
And the VA hospital in Houston still went ahead and did my ten hour colorectal cancer surgery right after hurricane Ike! Something I will never never forget! I'm in my 4th year of survival praise you Jesus!
I was just looking at pictures recently that Diana took and Pastor Briggs congregation coming to visit me. I can't say it enough Pastor Briggs, thank you and thank you and please tell everyone in your congregation that visited me Thank you thank you!
When you go through something like that quarrels go out the window you've got to fully trust in the blood of Jesus and His righteousness! --- MB
Commendable as an individual, damning as an organization.
RB said,
But at times, in certain people's presentation of things, it seems as if they throw things out just because they are "NTCC". No mininterpretation there, just rejections of all things organizational related. I think that is dangerous.
Don and Ange said,
I hear you and appreciate your point of view. I'm sure I am guilty of that but just as it is dangerous to disregard doctrine, policies or beliefs just because they were ntcc doctrines, policies or beliefs, it is equally dangerous to adhere to them for the same reason. I purposely don't wear white shirts and wingtips any more because I don't want to be associated with the ntcc or any other group that knocks on doors and invites people out to church. I do witness to people and think that my wife and I can be just as effective or more so at pointing souls to Christ as someone that hands out church cards and invites folks to church services.
We did these things because we were in the ntcc and it was required of us and it was presented to us as an ultimatum. If you are not a member of the ntcc soul winning machine, you are treated as less of a Christian as those that are. We were not allowed to witness, only invite people to church. The Pastor was the only one qualified to win a soul. God chose the foolishness of preaching and anything with two heads is a freak and so on and so on.
I don't know you very well Rev. Briggs and have never been to your church, but I know the ntcc and all the churches I went to back in the day were cookie cutter churches set up to be run the same way. I don't think you were fashioned in the same mold as many in the ntcc and hope that you are a man of compassion and one who allows people to be people. When you take away a persons individuality and enforce doctrines that erase a persons identity, this is dangerous. There is a reason why people in the X-er community don't want anything to do with all things ntcc anymore. To me it is disturbing to see the effect that the ntcc has on the lives of so many people even after they have left.
Many in the ntcc will say that we are just bitter because leaving the ntcc is equal to leaving God. We are called reprobates and apostates for what reason? Because we felt that the ntcc is wrong in its policies and doctrines? I've been to other churches and left them because I didn't agree with their doctrine but was never considered a reprobate by the baptists or assemblies of God.
There is too much uncontrolled power in the ntcc and I do not believe that it's God. I have to use logic and common sense to deduce that the ntcc is a cult and they hurt more people than they have helped. Every one that leaves has horror stories of how unChristlike they were treated. You can't make this stuff up, it's true and it's not right. I don't expect you to agree with the majority of what I just said and it's not directed at you Rev. Briggs. As the old saying goes, "If the shoe fits"?
Don and Ange
Don and Ange said...
I hear you and appreciate your point of view. I'm sure I am guilty of that but just as it is dangerous to disregard doctrine, policies or beliefs just because they were ntcc doctrines, policies or beliefs, it is equally dangerous to adhere to them for the same reason.
Jeff said...
Remarkable response. Pastor Briggs was right and your response was right on point. That may have been the most unbiased exchange in dialogue that I've seen in a while. Bravo. Now this is what free, open discussion is all about. Not all this censorship junk that goes on in the NTCC.
The NTCC sees open unbiased dialogue as a threat to their authoritarian style of leadership. We wouldn't want folks to be able to think on their own. What a threat that would be.
Jeff
Wow.
Pastor Briggs said..."During our food distribution that one week alone we feed close to 6,000 meals as well as distributing MRE's, Water, Ice, Produce."
Commendable (of course). Not to put too fine a point on it, but who paid for all this? Or, was Pastor Briggs church a distribution point?
In either case (whoever paid), this is a ministry previously (and very recently) forbidden.
Sour grapes...you decide.
Gregory
Greg said...
In either case (whoever paid), this is a ministry previously (and very recently) forbidden.
Sour grapes...you decide.
Jeff said...
You better believe it was previously forbidden. The NTCC doctrinal statement forbids taking tithe money and using it towards quote "charity". Their doctrinal statement says that tithe money should only be used for the active ministry. In fact I'll post exactly what is written in the NTCC doctrinal statement concerning tithe.
"Tithes should be used for the support of the active ministry and for the propagation of the Gospel and the work of the Lord. It is not to be given to charity or used for other purposes."
Isn't taking care of poor folks and giving to charity included in the "active ministry and the propagation of the Gospel and the work of the Lord"?Y ou better believe it is.
What the NTCC doctrinal statement should read is that tithes should be used to accumulate the $20,000 a year necessary to put the Kekel's son through high school. It should read that tithes should be used so that RWD and the Kekels can invest in real-estate so they can get rich while telling ignorant church members and ministers that they didn't get their wealth from the church but from their investments.
If you are a full time minister and your only income is from tithe, then even if you have other investments, those investments were established with tithe money. Hey, there is nothing wrong with investing money but don't treat us like we are stupid by suggesting that your wealth didn't come from the church because you have other investments and that is where you money comes from.
Your wealth did come from the church because your so called "other investments" were funded with church money in the first place. Mike Kekel doesn't work on a job so where else did the money come from needed to start his investments? Sour Grapes? How about reality? The NTCC has changed like a chameleon.
Jeff
Jeff said, "The NTCC has changed like a chameleon."
Hey! I resemble that remark!
SD
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff said in the original post: "RWD is interested in keeping one type of person around his organization. Look at the guy to the left and there you have it. This explains why RWD has no problem getting rid of old timers. He likes young new fresh recruits which will say, "YES SIR" to his every whim. The most important thing to RWD is having the ability to control people."
Lurch says,
..........................PREACH!!
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Hello, I am Wayne Cantrell's first wife, Colleen, and you wanted to know why I left. We were at the St. Louis College at the time. Wayne and I were called into Rev Davis's office one day after service. Rev Olsen was in there as well. Davis told Wayne right there in front of me that he had to get me "under control" or he would not be allowed into the ministry. (I was one to ask questions of authority and Davis did not like me much for that). Wayne was already verberlly abusive. He began beating me and the abuse got more severe with the pastor's blessing. I became pregnant and at first, Wayne was liking the idea of having a boy, but he still showed hatred towards me. He said it would be a boy and so we picked a name. I chose his first name "Joshua" because I love the story and faith of Joshua in the Bible. Wayne chose his middle name "Raymond" for his brother. When pastor found out I was pregnant, (4 months) he told Wayne that he couldn't be a pastor if he had a child, so he came home and beat me severly, killing our child, all the time calling me Bitch and Hore. What he didn't realize was the severity of what he had done. My mom and brother came and took me in the middle of the night and I had to have not only reconstrctive surgery for the damage he had done but also, the Doc told me that I could never bear children again because of the damage. After many years of counseling, I did return to the Military, Combat this time, been to war and back, and cannot get close to anyone, Thank you, Wayne, at least I learned to defend myself!! ....and I laughed when RW Davis Died!!!!!!
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