Hey everyone: The Reeds have a blog that is open for posting. Their blog was not established for the same reason as this one and that, I totally understand and respect. Their blog is not about the NTCC. It's about the Reeds, the Lord, and what they are doing for the Lord. That is not to say the NTCC won't ever come up, but that is not why their blog still exists. I'm sure they'd appreciate some visitors and I'm also sure they'd appreciate knowing that the friendships they established over the last 25 years haven't vanished just because they've decided to attend a different church. The Reeds didn't suggest or ask me to post this. With very few exceptions I work independently however if the Reeds asked me to take down this thread I'd have no problem doing so. My association with M. Reed is pretty much limited to the time that we both lived in the same serviceman's home back in 1985. We've talked since but certainly not often. Having said that, we definitely were good friends back in 1985 when we were both in the Military stationed together at Ft. Hood. I just thought that folks might be interested in going to visit their blog. Below is a link and I've placed a link on my sidebar as well.
http://onelessstone.blogspot.com/
Jeff
317 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 317 of 317NANB -
Simply put.
BK
I saw so many people be humiliated from the pulpit in Junction City and humiliated and called out during soul winners meetings. So you will have to excuse me for being so emotional.
Matthew was a complete product of Davis and I would hate to be in his shoes.
Maybe Nicole can call the Reeds and ask for an apology.
I'm sure that the Reeds have done things that they aren't proud of, but what can you do? Should they call every former church member and apologize for any harsh words, rebuke or criticism that they made. Sure, what NTCC minister hasn't tried to imitate Mr. Jack-up himself, RWD? Nice Guy Oberhauser was told he was too nice and jacked up Jeff. The question might better be; what minister will realize that there is something wrong with what they are doing, that their actions are not of God and move one with their lives?
I think eph 6:6 tells how Reed and wife could walk away, plus, like you they allowed the root of bittnerness to defile them. The root works slow, but it works sure, if you do not get it out!
Are you talking about Matthew Reed Nicole?
BK
Wow,
First of all, BK, you can visit the Reed's blog and find the story about the photo-shopped Antenna. To put Nicole's tv comment into perspective the Reed's reported that the ntcc photoshopped the dish antenna off of their house so that they could display the picture on their trumpet propaganda paper. The ntcc also removed the Puka-shell necklaces that the Reed's were wearing in their personal photo. To see these pictures click on the link to their blog in this thread and you will find that story.
Nicole has some valid points and I was not there in Junction City. My experience with the Reed's was a good one and I also agree with Anonymous in that every minister was groomed to be a rwd wannabe. There are many ministers in the organization that emulate the abusive nature of their leaders and there are those that think it is necessary to jack people up for little of nothing just because it's been done to them.
The Reed's were my Pastor while I was stationed at Ft. Gordon. My memories of them were all good and I don't ever remember them hurting anyone. We all believed a lie and thought that what we were taught was the only truth. I was part of churches where people were hurt and I believed that the victims were to blame. I was under the same delusion and am very glad that I'm no longer part of that.
Many are still part of that and I believe that some are abusive because it is a learned behavior. Not sure if I was with the Reed's before you or after you and I'm not disagreeing with you Nichole, just adding my perspective. I believe a lot about what X-ers say because I have found them to be honest more so than those in the ntcc. I am happy for the Reed's because they are out. There are probably people in the world that I have mistreated because of the way I was taught and I can think of examples. I don't even remember some of their names because the whole experience was a blur and I've asked God for His forgiveness. The answer I got was not to dwell in the past but to change and not continue that behavior in the future. Sometimes that is all we can do.
I consider you a friend Nichole and I'm in no way disagreeing or attempting to correct you. The great thing about these blogs is that we are now free to say what is on our minds and I respect you and others like you that are not afraid to say what you think. I'm learning that compassion shows no favoritism. The truth is needed.
Don and Ange
Anonymous said,
"BK has never been a minister, plays ignorant and then defends practices of the NTCC without knowing their original intent and what was forced upon people. BK, you can't have it your way, right away..."
Don and Ange said:
I disagree. I think BK has been a minister and that he disagrees with much of what is going on in the ntcc. There is a lot of truth to what BK says and there is much that I disagree with. That doesn't mean that I'm right or wrong, nor does it mean that he is. We present our perspectives on these blogs and we in turn create an atmosphere that people like to participate in.
Bixby has agreed with us in principle on many issues and there are others that he disagrees with us on. I actually pray for the Knolls (or who they represent) and wish them the best because I think there is hope for them. (Not that Bixby Knolls is their true identity).
Don and Ange
I know many people here that only knew Matthew as a friend and didn't have him for a pastor.
Concerning a sinner who doesn't matter - this is called bitterness.
If you are speaking of a Christian, it is called righteous indignation. Am I right?
Only certain people matter in the world of churchdom.
It is not my problem to contact anyone for an apology. It is a burden for the Reeds to carry that what they required of people destroyed marriages just like Davis' requirements.
Everyone can sugar coat things and pretend the past was perfect. Calling things the way they were doesn't mean bitterness is involved. It means lives were wasted and marriages destroyed for nothing.
Nicole, how can the Reeds make it up to you? They could give you 2 first tickets to Hawaii for you and your husband, treat you all out to dinner, buy you a pair of Prada shoes, a Louis Vutton purse, and you still wouldn't be satisfied. What do they need to go through or give you in order for you to feel satisfied or vindicated?
In relation to what Nicole has been battling and what Anon shared right after concerning her experiences with The Reeds.
This is why I posted what I did previously and Nicole is making my point ever so well. Thank you Nicole, sincerely.
BK said,
"This is a real burden for me. One thing that I have done through all of this is tried to keep my heart right with God. It is very easy to allow past experiences and hurts to consume the real love of God and light of truth in the heart of an individual, thus causing unforgiveness to rest in the place where the Spirit of God should be.
All I was really stating, was in all of one's warning of the "burning building", not to be consumed yourself and I tried to provide scripture and tools that have helped me to stay right and keep peace with God and the Holy Ghost, in hopes that sharing that with others, would salvage them from castaway status".
Jesus was able to pray with sincerity "Father Forgive Them...."
I don't think any of us have been violated like Christ was, yet He still kept his heart right and in the right perspective. He is our True example and not men alone.
Hope this helps you Nicole b.
No offense was intended.
BK
You all can criticize me all you want. I care deeply about the people who attended that church and I know what they went through. I am not materialistic nor am I seeking material things. You can slam me, call me the enquirer and talk all the trash you want about me.
I've stood up for people who were hurt and therefore I will be blamed and villified. That's ok. I can take it.
I find it confusing that so many people think they need to make it up to me. All the people who were humiliated and hurt and told they couldn't spend even a second with their spouse is all for not because the Reeds left anyways.
At least I can say who I am and not be a coward posting under the Anon.
I guess only a non Christian here can have enough compassion to be outraged by the destruction of marriages that has occurred.
Davis was pointing out the fundamental belief of Christianity which is that dying is the ulitmate goal. Now you are in heaven with Jesus. So maybe when Davis told Reed to just let that man die...he was right.
Christians love to use the word "battle". I've noticed that a lot.
I'm just enjoying life.
What I'm wondering is how many souls are out there still wondering if they are going to spend an eternity in hell for not serving God the way, for example, Matthew Reed who was emulating Davis said to.
And maybe without realizing that the Reeds have left? How many soldiers have the Reeds contacted and persuaded to believe that you serve God the ntcc way or you go to hell?
Just something to pause and consider.
Nicole, I hope you get the closure that you need and can forgive the Reeds for what may have been done in the name of NTCC and RWD at Junction City and move on. I'm sure you would have something to say to them face-to-face or over the phone. If your abuser gets abused, does it make you feel better? If they die or have some calamity befall them would you feel justified? I believe you've seen people forgive their family member's killers. The Reeds have to start their lives over too and were cutoff from people that they once considered friends.
In NTCC dying is the ultimate goal and it is a life of striving, struggle, making it happen and doing things based on your abilities. Really, we are supposed to be resting in Christ and are made alive by Him and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Anon -
Well put wisely.
BK.
everyone has to give an account.
Bixby, don't come here and preach. You can call me a jerk, an idiot, a moron but don't come on here with all your self righteous stuff like all of us need your spiritual guidance. We don't. You can defend yourself, debate someones point and pretty much write anything you want as long as it is relievedly clean but I heard enough of the NTCC's holier than thou preaching and I don't feel like reading it here either. If you are truly concerned for souls, go preach to the NTCC leadership who are no more than a bunch of money hungry, double standard, abusive hypocrites.
Don't come here and preach at us. We are not interested in your spiritual guidance. I'm kind of guessing that is plain enough. Defend the NTCC if you want or don't defend them but no more preaching Bro. Thank you.
Jeff
NANB,
You may be part of the new Mainstream ntcc. Where there trying to appear like every other church. ON the surface only. There still the same ntcc deep down! Zebras never change there stripes. You can try and paint over them. But there still there. You might have some privilages that many of us were not allowed to have. I for one,do not think it will last. It is all crowd control. Ntcc is trying to hold onto any crowd that they can. They need you in there seats more then you need them!!
Jeff said:
"If you are truly concerned for souls, go preach to the NTCC leadership who are no more than a bunch of money hungry, double standard, abusive hypocrites."
Don and Ange said:
Ain't that the truth. It's amazing how the ntcc stirs the kettle. There's nothing good that comes out of it. When people realize that this whole mess was created by the ntcc for the purpose of financial gain it should send up some red flags. People always seem so quick to justify the ntcc's actions and it's always expected that the X-ers should take the "high road".
This is a wake up call to everyone that loves the ntcc. There is a reason that we are passionate against the ntcc, and that we expose them for every evil practice that they partake in. Not sure how many times we said this but it never seems to sink in. We were the ones that made to suffer. Not the leadership of the ntcc. Do you see any suffering going on in the davis, olson, johnson, ashmore households? People's lives have been forever altered and when we have the nerve to say anything about it, we are corrected and told how bitter we are.
Who is bitter and who is wrong here? I have to disagree with those that say we have to get on with our lives. We are getting on with our lives and if we can help others by showing them how wicked the ntcc is, then we have done them and the world a great service. Is it not love to warn people that they are involved with or getting involved with a destructive cult? Cults need to be exposed. The ntcc is a cult. If we can save one person from a small portion of the heartache we have unnecessarily experienced by these narcissistic, abusive and mind controlling jerks, then we have had a small part in making the world a better place to live in.
"You need to focus on the Love of God, and stop being so negative all the time". That's what the devil wants. Don't say anything bad about the ntcc. Let them continue to manipulate people and destroy their lives. I spend a portion of every day loving God, and then I spend another portion on these blogs warning people of the harmful and deceitful ways of the ntcc. Many people choose to forget about the ntcc and serve God in another church and they don't want to get involved with what goes on here. We understand that and we are glad that they are out and "getting on with their lives".
Our purpose and calling is to help people who's lives have been discarded like filthy, rotted, stinkin, garbage. We have chosen to take the "low road" where people are suffering and the common person who gave everything they had, and wasted years of their lives are left to drown in darkness without hope because they have had spiritual lobotomies so they could be manipulated into money generators for the sickening money grubbing Nepotists of the ntcc.
This thread is about the Reed's and it seems to keep coming back to them for good or bad. I'm glad that they got out and are no longer under the abusive mind control of the ntcc. Whatever harm that anyone has done inside the ntcc is usually the result of learned behavior promoted and instilled in them by the powers that be inside of the ntcc. The ntcc, like the master they serve, are the Author's of Confusion. If they can keep people confused and too busy to see what they are involved in, then they will continue to stir the kettle and sit back and laugh at us while the money continues to poor in.
Don and Ange
"Everyone can sugar coat things and pretend the past was perfect."
"I have to disagree with those that say we have to get on with our lives."
Contradiction here!
Bk sounds like he is stuck in the middle.
mdr here. I've been very busy basking in the blessing of God, and haven't been able to post lately. ;-)
Nichole, after reading your posts, I'm having a real brain cramp as to the scenario you have shared. I remember when you and Glen were going to get married, and he went up to get you and your belongings. There was no problem with him going or you ever spending time with each other. I could be wrong, but I think I performed your wedding ceremony and didn't charge you. I think you guys bought us dinner. That was nice of you, but not required. I also gave Glen my auto body job at the Chevy dealership, and took another job, if my memory is correct.
Yes, there was a church schedule that we followed, but I don't believe I was a task master. Debbie was recently looking at a photo of you in JC with a quilt she helped you make. No free time? I think you may have me confused with someone else.
My wife and I remember good times with you and Glen. We esteemed you both you very highly, and loved Steven dearly. I am by no means saying I did everything right when I was a pastor with NTCC. Yes, I was a RWD follower, but let me just say, if I offended you in any way, shape, form, or fashion, as it seems I have, I apologize right here and right now. It is Easter and you're more than welcome to nail me to the cross if you like, but I will rise again. :-) A little Easter lingo there.
I don't know if you remember, but I worked a job in Junction City. When I got to JC, there was $25 in the general fund, and the $584/mo. van payment was six months behind. The phone got turned off the first week we were there for non-payment. I paid out of my personal money to get it turned back on. There was a home payment of $236/week -- yes that's per week -- and church rent of $600/mo also. Shortly after I arrived, I got a call telling me I needed to be working on this van payment. I ended up turning in the church van because we couldn't afford it. After being openly humiliated in conference, I was driven back to JC by another minister in our church van, sat in the back seat, in fact, and was dropped off with no vehicle. I can't tell you how humiliating that was, and it wasn't my fault the bills were behind. I had just gotten to this work a few months prior, and had never been behind on any payments in any work that I ever pastored. The only reason I share this is because you mentioned my profiting from that work. I put more money into that work than I ever got out of it. I'm not complaining, just explaining.
I did go soul winning along with everyone else, and just FYI, you can ask Armando and Ravindra who soulwinned them.
When we left JC, three years later, there was a new church building, and seven brothers in the home, and I was still working on a secular job. I must say, by then I had bought myself a Cadillac and RWD wasn't pleased with it and let me know about it. ;-) I could believe God for that, but not van payments. Oh, well, you win some and you lose some.
I sincerely hope the Lord will heal you heart from any bitterness and you will find a place to forgive, hurts real or imagined, as God has forgiven us for Christ's sake.
Happy Easter everyone. More later. We're on our way to Red Lobster, thanks to two former JC church members, J & D who sent us a gift card yesterday. Imagine that. Love you all, even if you don't love us any more! ;-) ;-)
mdr here again, one more thing. Believe it or not, we are not bitter, and it really is a better life for us outside of NTCC. Look at my wife's blog and I think you see where our hearts are at now. In our Good Friday service, I prayed for those people. We have no ill will toward anyone in or out of NTCC. The truth is the truth. We are happier than ever, and know God is faithful and His love is amazing! It's a wonderful grace walk, people!
"Bk sounds like he is stuck in the middle."
Sounds like he is letting God reign instead of Man!
Anonymous said:
"I have to disagree with those that say we have to get on with our lives."
Don and Ange said:
"Get on with your Lives" means don't oppose the ntcc. Whatever. We will continue to tell the truth about ntcc. If I am wrong for telling the truth about them than the we might as well tear up the bible and throw it all away. If I become your enemy for telling the truth about those who would wreck your lives, so be it. I would like to be friends with everyone. Do you think if I walked into an ntcc church that they would greet me with open arms? Do you think that they would display the love of Christ towards us if we showed up in Graham for Easter morning service? Not only would they run us out on a rail, they would probably run off just about anyone that comments on these blogs.
We are in the process of getting on with our lives and for us it's a wonderful journey and every day is an adventure. We love what we are doing and I can honestly say that God is in it. We covet your prayers and friendships.
Don and Ange
mdr said...
We have no ill will toward anyone in or out of NTCC.
Jeff said...
Bro, I think you might be missing the point.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Jeff asked...
Why did Jesus say that? Did he have "ill will" toward the Nicholaitanes?
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Did Jesus have "ill will" toward the Pharisees who he said that to? The Gospels and Revelation chronicle various times where Jesus spoke sharply against the religious hypocrites of his day.
Why would Jesus do that knowing the Bible would be copied trillions of times for all to read throughout all generations? WHY? Was he bitter? Did he have ill will toward the religious hypocrites of his day? NO!!! He did it for the same reason that I'm doing it.
Jesus cared enough about those who would unwittingly get involved with such groups to warn them to not only not act the same way but to stay away.
Many of you really don't understand Jesus or me for that matter. The NTCC has you brainwashed to such a degree that you think it is wrong to even think bad about others. Well Jesus thought plenty bad about the religious crooks of his day and he made sure it was written in the Bible for all to read for ever.
I care about the young soldiers who are getting used by the NTCC. I care about the families who the NTCC breaks up and leaves in shambles. I care about those who spend decades of their lives going no where just to realize that thay have to start all over when they are around 50 years old. I care about the children who's childhoods are totally destroyed and wasted because RWD is such an abusive scandalous jerk, that he wants to control everyone else except Mike, Tanya and Grant who live quite normal lives.
If you knew a rapist was heading in your daughters house, wouldn't you warn her? If you know a burglar was heading into someones house to steal everything they had, wouldn't you warn them? If you knew someones car was getting broke into would you try and stop the crook? Well the NTCC does way worse than any of those examples. They trick people into wasting years and years and years of their lives, countless opportunities, untold amounts of money just to kick them to the curb like they did the Reeds when the man is almost 50 years old!!! That is serious folks!!! Real serious!! Jesus hates the deeds of the Nicolaitanes and I HATE the deeds of the NTCC leadership. Jesus gave the Bible which included eternal warnings about such groups and I give this blog so that our society can be warned against the wiles of the NTCC. This blog ain't going anywhere and I'm not bitter and neither was Jesus. I don't have ill will and neither did Jesus. People need to be warned and I plan to continue doing it.
Jeff
Many people don't realize just how destructive and damaging the NTCC can be to people in our society. Life is short people. I take it real serious when hypocrites like RWD and Kekel destroy years of our lives because they happen to possess some real powers of persuasion. Guys like that are an absolute menace to people in our society and they go after the good hearted and unsuspecting.
These are the people who's lives they wreck. The un-trusting and wise simply tell NTCCers to get off their porch and not come back. Such is not so with the trusting and good hearted. They say, "yeah I'll come visit your church" just to wind up leaving 20 - 30 years later having wasted half their life. Don't kid yourselves people. Don't say, "Oh it was all part of Gods plan and all things work together for the good". That is a big negative. Did the good Christian lady who walked into her house late one night only to get brutally raped and beaten by an intruder think the same? Was that part of God's plan and did all things work together for the good for her?
Are some of you so ignorant that you believe that nothing bad ever happens to a Christian? God puts a head on your shoulders and a brain so that you can see through the NTCC's garbage and if you don't it's not God's fault and it wasn't a part of God's plan either. Hypocrisy, double standards, greediness and religious abuse is not "PART OF GODS PLAN".
You don't have to be abused and used on this earth to make it to heaven.
If you fail to use common sense, don't say to God, "You said all things work together for good to them that love God, so why didn't all things work together for my good and I love God"?
God will likely say, "I can't help it when people don't use the good sense that I gave them. Doesn't the Bible say not to do anything by partiality? My Son, who made you so blind that you couldn't see the partiality that existed with Roger Davis and the Kekels?"
When people ignore what is obvious it's not God's fault when everything doesn't work together for their good.
Jeff
"Bk sounds like he is stuck in the middle."
Sounds like he is letting God reign instead of Man!
I think Bk is the psame person who used to post as "Stuck In The Middle", thats all I'm saying.
Now that the Reed's are out, why not apologize to Nicole? I know I owe a few people an apology if I ever crossed there path again. Step up!!
Bixby wrote...
Or shall I say Christ has?
Jeff wrote...
It sounds like I'm the good old delete button shall come into play. I deleted the abusive hypocrites when I left the NTCC and I'm deleting your comment because you think we need to be preached at here in this blog. I wasted my time while I was with the NTCC and you wasted your time typing your message because it's gone. I asked you not to preach here. This is not your pulpit. Save that for the NTCC or whatever church you attend.
Jeff
BK said:
"Or shall I say Christ has?"
Don and Ange said:
I think for you to say that Christ has struck a sour chord with Jeff is a stretch but that's between you and Jeff. As for us? We are really trying to help folks realize their is freedom outside of the ntcc. We believe that our own experience is more real and we have no doubt in our minds and hearts that the ntcc is a cult.
I do believe much of what we do is misunderstood. Yes we do speak vehemently against the ntcc and we attempt to shock people into waking up and seeing what is going on in the organization they love. Sometimes people think that we are a bunch of God haters but we also realize that the kinder gentler approach is not viable. We use the same methods that were used against us. Lately, I come to realize that people on both sides have more in common than they realize and maybe it's not the people who are the real enemies, but the establishment and it's leaders. What we are saying here is that we once stood where you stand, definitely not in the same shoes but we all believed the same lie and were under the same delusion.
Like you, we believe that it is important above all things to keep your relationship with God in tact. We have learned that in this blogging community there are very many that have been hurt very bad. They have strong opinions and feel they are entitled to speak them. This is not a luxury that we ever had in the ntcc. There is strength in numbers and our voices will be heard. Our suffering has not gone by unnoticed to God. We are not here to soft pedal anything.
We stick up for our fellow X-er's here because nobody in the ntcc ever has and we also think that the ntcc does not own the copyright on Christianity. In fact they have very little to do with Christianity.
Don and Ange
Hey Don and Ange. I took a small portion away from Bixby's qoute that you posted. I don't even want his entire quote to putrefy this blog. I asked Bixby not to come on here and preach at us and he elected to ignore my request so I elected to delete his message just like I deleted Oberhauser and the rest of the NTCC when I left his church.
Bixby can write just about anything he wants on here as long as it stays fairly clean but when he starts trying to preach his distorted righteousness on here, his message will see the trash can every time. The reason I removed a portion of his quote is because I don't even want to be reminded of what he said. I can live with the small portion that I allowed to remain without getting too nauseous. You guys understand. Take it easy my friends. Hopefully Bixby will get the point now or he/she can continue wasting time by writing messages which will disappear.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
Now that the Reed's are out, why not apologize to Nicole? I know I owe a few people an apology if I ever crossed there path again. Step up!!
Jeff said...
How about you stepping up "Anonymous" and find all the people you need to apologize to rather than waiting to cross their paths? I'm sure the Reeds have made their peace and if they haven't that is between them and God. You are only suggesting that because the Reeds are out now and you are trying to antagonize. Why don't you go into the Graham church and tell RWD and Olson that they need to apologize in person to each and everyone who they've abused and offended? Not a blanket apology but a personal one, face to face, and conference would be a perfect time to do it.
It's easy for you to go after the Reeds because they have left the NTCC and this is your way of trying to smear and discredit them by highlighting Nichole's comments. Well the Reeds have seen the error of their ways which is why they've left the NTCC so I doubt they'll be involved with the NTCCs practices any longer. That is what true repentance is all about.
Have you left the NTCC or have you simply just changed your ways while continuing to bring your people to the NTCC's conference so they can get verbally abused by RWD and his clowns? If that is the case I think you owe them an apology.
Jeff
Anon said, Now that the Reed's are out, why not apologize to Nicole? I know I owe a few people an apology if I ever crossed there path again. Step up!!
April 24, 2011 9:24 AM
I think you missed this, Reed did apoligize.
"I am by no means saying I did everything right when I was a pastor with NTCC. Yes, I was a RWD follower, but let me just say, if I offended you in any way, shape, form, or fashion, as it seems I have, I apologize right here and right now."
April 23, 2011 4:53 PM
Jeff said:
"You guys understand. Take it easy my friends. Hopefully Bixby will get the point now or he/she can continue wasting time by writing messages which will disappear."
Don and Ange said:
Amen Jeff. Sometimes it seems like there are so many voices on the blogs and it sometimes seems hard to tell where they are coming from and what they are trying to say. To be honest with you, I had to go back and read BK's comment a couple times after you posted about it to see where he and you were coming from. Theres not much that gets by you. And you are 100% right about it.
I think it's a huge transition to go through for some people. I know they go back and forth reasoning in their hearts. On one hand they realize that the ntcc is wrong about many things, and then they realize if they admit that, they also have to admit that most of their life has been wasted. Then they come on here and preach to us. It's a horrible thing to realize that you wasted the years of your youth living in a cult. The sad thing is, that there is no other outcome. The ntcc will not take him/her back and if he/she listens to their voice, they will find only condemnation in their future. This is how it's been; this is how it is; and this is how it will always be in the ntcc.
Don and Ange
Jeff sounds like you’re a little butt hurt over my statement. No one is trying to antagonize anyone or go after the Reeds. Someone has a gripe against him and if they were sorry for what they’ve done they would apologize to this person. Just because everybody likes them doesn’t mean they get a free pass. How many people have you apologized to because I know you didn’t treat everyone fair while you were in NTCC. Beside I wasn’t even a pastor or a minister, just a lowly church member for about 9 years and yes I have people to apologize to also and not afraid to say it. Yes I left NTCC back in 2008. All I’m saying is if someone came on the blog and had a problem with something I did to them I would apologize for my actions. Just because they left NTCC doesn’t make everything right.
And someone else posted that Reed did apologize and I did miss it. SO CASE CLOSED! I’m done with it they did the right thing to apologize to Nichole. Or maybe I’ve been hood winked and Nichole is an NTCC imposter on the blog stirring things up.
Anonymous said...
Jeff sounds like you’re a little butt hurt over my statement.
Jeff said...
No, not at all. Being hurt has absolutely nothing to do with it. I treated some people bad while I was part of the NTCC but I was following the example of the NTCC leadership and my pastor. The NTCC promotes and stimulates that kind of approach. Well I'm out of the NTCC now and even though I regret my actions while I was in the NTCC I realize that it was the NTCC's brainwashing which prompted me to act that way.
It was that whole judgmental, holier than thou attitude that we learned from our pastors and RWD in conference. We were taught to act that way not only by their words but also by their example. Well the Reeds are no longer part of the NTCC so where this blog is concerned, they are no longer part of what we stand against. Sure there are thousands and thousands of abusive cults in the United States that I could go after but those other churches are not the focus of this blog, the NTCC is.
If someone broke into my car and I caught them, I wouldn't go testify against every other burglar in the US, I'd testify against the very person who broke into my car. In like manner, the Reeds are no longer part of the NTCC so once again, they are not the focus of this blog. We who have left the NTCC are no longer perpetuating their abusive, double standard ways. So yes, M. Reed gets a free pass around here. If you want apologies, go talk to the NTCC leadership or write about them on this blog.
In case you haven't figured it out, I'm focused, and the focus of this blog, (dispite the title of this thread) is not the Reeds. It is exposing the NTCC so folks like the Reeds will leave.
Jeff
asting pearls to swine is more liThanks Don for understanding what I was getting at seeing how the moderator of this blog doesn't get it and thinks he a others are the only ones who were violated.
Preaching AT you? You missed it bud. My only goal was to share with others how the Lord helped me to handle things and I used scripture and Christ's example to help me cope.
I'm glad what I "preached", as you have accused me of, got down to where your heart was by the Spirit of God. I guess using scripture here in the proper text is considered "preaching".
Casting pearls to swine is more like it.
Thanks again Don for understanding what I was trying to do and not twisting it. And for being man enough to handle the truth and not delete it off of this blog.
Lighten up Jeff.....you ain't the only one who's been violated and I guarantee, based on your posts, you have been no where near "violated" as I have nor as many times. No where near it.
BK
Sorry Bixby, I can't jump into your amen corner on this one. Not sure what I said to be thanked by you but I agree with Jeff on this one.
I have to say that your arrogance is unbelievable and I wonder if you even realize what you are saying. In one breath you are thanking me and in the next breath it sounds like you are preaching at me, but I think you are preaching at Jeff. Bad mistake.
Casting your pearls before swine? I guess that you believe everyone that participates in this blog is a pig. That's alright, you are entitled to your opinions. The whole thing about it is that nobody is here to condemn you and nobody is here to tell you how to live. We are probably the best friends you got, because we will tell you the truth. We will accept you when you fall. We won't preach at you but we will extend the right hand of fellowship to you. If you think we are sinners and heathen, and you project a condescending attitude toward us than we might take offense towards you.
I don't think Jeff is asking too much. He allows just about anything to take place on this blog but when you come across as sanctimonious to others that speak their mind on this blog, it probably makes him and others think that you are trying to be a typical ntcc pastor and jack folks up. We all have a thick skin around here believe it or not. Thick like a swines hyde. You should too. Nobody hates you they just think your comments are a little out of place. That's me speaking, I'm sure Jeff and others will have something to say and we are not trying to speak for him. He is well capable of doing that for himself.
Don and Ange
Bixby said...
I'm glad what I "preached", as you have accused me of, got down to where your heart was by the Spirit of God. I guess using scripture here in the proper text is considered "preaching".
Jeff said...
There you go again with your super spiritual mumbo jumbo rhetoric. The Spirit of God didn't get down to my heart. You simply annoyed me with your self righteous, think you are a spiritual judge, garbage. It's written all over everything you write. You apparently didn't get abused by the NTCC as much as you say or you'd be smart enough not to practice the same junk that they so ignorantly dish out. The only reason I didn't delete your last post is because you've showed that you have a little heart. Unfortunately you don't have as much sense as you have heart because if you did, you wouldn't keep spewing all your holier than thou pharisee garbage.
If you've been abused by the NTCC as much as you say you have, why don't you preach at them either in person or right here on this blog? You don't because you are a sympathizer, mixed up or weak or a combination of the three. That post is the last one where you will preach at me and it will remain on this blog.
Like I said, call me whatever you want but leave that holier than thou rhetoric off of it. This blog isn't an NTCC church where you can abuse your congregates in the name of the Lord. The Lord has nothing to do with the things you write so stop kidding yourself.
Jeff
BK,
Maybe I was a little bit harsh with you on that last post. The casting pearls before swine statement was a bit too much for me. I'm trying really hard here to not to be like I once was. I think I know where you are coming from but it just seems so ntcc-esque for lack of a better term.
It seems like you have been hurt by the ntcc but you believe in everything they taught you. In time I hope you can discern the good from the bad, the right from the wrong and the unnecessary from the necessary. Not everyone in this forum claims to be a Christian and many are at different stages of healing including us. But we all have one thing in common and that is that we believe that the ntcc is a destructive cult.
Did they preach Christ crucified?
Yes they did.
Did they teach the Bible?
Yes they did.
Did they preach the truth?
In many cases they did.
Did they Live what they preached?
Some did, many didn't.
Did they display God's Love?
You be the judge.
They didn't keep the same standards they preached.
They became apparent that they used people for money.
What the ntcc has done to people is disgusting and we are compelled to speak out against them. We don't claim to live the same standards that they claim are "the standards of God". Is it really in God's word or do you have to give it a little twist to make sense of it? We don't claim to be super holy or super spiritual but some of us do actually believe in the bible and live accordingly.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange said...
It seems like you have been hurt by the ntcc but you believe in everything they taught you.
Jeff said...
Exactly. And Bixby seems to practice and preach much of what they taught also.
Jeff
Jeff said,
"There you go again with your super spiritual mumbo jumbo rhetoric"
almost makes you afraid to say the word God around here!
Don and Ange asked...
Did they preach Christ crucified?
Yes they did.
Did they teach the Bible?
Yes they did.
Did they preach the truth?
In many cases they did.
Jeff said...
That Bible says the devils also believe and they tremble. According to the NTCC, the devil is very good at twisting the scriptures and they should know.
Did the NTCC take the scriptures and twist them while abusing people? Yes, constantly.
Did the NTCC distort the truth to suit their own greed and their desire to control people? Yes, constantly.
Did they preach Christ crucified? Yes and so does the Catholic church, the Baptist church, the Episcopalian church, and every other the church the NTCC has spoken bad about.
The NTCC has a form of Godliness but that is the extent of if. Anyone can say "Bless Ya". The NTCC's mastered that one.
Jeff
haus of Collins rules
1. no profanity
2. no apologies
3. no spirituality
4. no excuses
Anonymous said...
Haus of Collins rules.
Jeff said...
LOL. You may be right. Ha, ha. We are allowed to have a sense of humor and you have a good one. Thanks for the post. I enjoyed that one.
Jeff
I really don't get it. What's so sanctimonious about sharing my experience in keeping my heart right? Lets face it, there are many who have been burned by trying to warn others. Am I really arrogant or at fault for what I've shared?
If I came across preachy, forgive me but these are realities that have concerned me.
BK
Self Righteous? You don't know me. I know what I am without Christ and I think about that from time to time. It helps me to remember what He did to pull me out of sin and myself.
If anyone is understanding, it's me along with many of you as well.
BK
Jeff -
I don't think anon was trying to be funny, but I could be wrong.
BK
everyone can enjoy this song and video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H17edn_RZoY
Bixby said...
I don't think anon was trying to be funny, but I could be wrong.
Jeff said...
I thought it was funny and I can appreciate some good criticism. Most of the time the truth is funny.
Understand Bixby. A Police Officer isn't trying to keep his heart right when he or she shoots and kills an armed and dangerous criminal. Even a Christian Police Officer. It's not about keeping his heart right when he pulls the trigger and it's not about keeping my heart right when I warn people about the harsh cruelty that exists within the NTCC. I feel like I'm doing the world a service. Let me say that again. I feel like I'm doing the world a service. It's not about spirituality. This blog has nothing to do with spirituality no more than spirituality has anything to do with the Police Officer shooting an armed and dangerous criminal. That is his duty and I see this as my duty. Someone has to do it or everyone second guesses their feelings about the NTCC.
When people read all the stories of abuse written by 100s of people they realize that it's not just the devil like the NTCC leadership like to suggest. This blog is necessary and it's working and people are figuring out what the NTCC is all about.
Jeff
BK
"I don't think anon was trying to be funny, but I could be wrong."
it was a tongue and cheek based upon careful observation
Anonymous said...
it was a tongue and cheek based upon careful observation.
Jeff said...
And a careful observation it was because you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I don't know who you are but I like what you post. I'm not saying this to patronize you but you are pretty smart.
Jeff
Jeff said:
"Jeff said...
That Bible says the devils also believe and they tremble. According to the NTCC, the devil is very good at twisting the scriptures and they should know.
Did the NTCC take the scriptures and twist them while abusing people? Yes, constantly.
Did the NTCC distort the truth to suit their own greed and their desire to control people? Yes, constantly."
Don and Ange said:
If you get down to the heart of the matter, the ntcc used people outright and discarded them like dirty rags. It's never about souls or getting people to heaven. It's all been a farce. A cruel trick and a bad dream.
My point was that they took that which was pure and defiled it. They messed with peoples lives with no other motive but to achieve money and power. They took people to Calvary only to get their money. They used the preaching of the Cross for financial gain. They know that the preaching the bible will get people saved and when they get them saved they pervert the purity that is in them by introducing them to control policies that are designed to make them follow a man with unwavering loyalty. There is a fine line and it's easy to get off course. Pretty soon you are following ntcc doctrine which is in direct contradiction to the bible and you don't even know it.
How sick is that? It happens continuously. It never stops. People are used and abused every day of their lives and they think they are living for God. When you finally realize what's going on, you can't believe it. You can't accept it. You are forced to make choices about your future and your life that nobody should ever have to make. If you chose to stay, you have to ignore all that you know is wrong. If you choose to accept the truth, you have to start your life all over again. You don't get those years of your life back that you wasted in the ntcc.
If you wonder why we don't pussy- foot around, or why we seem bitter and "full of hate", hear me out because maybe we are. Maybe we do bitterly hate what the ntcc has done to us and what we see them doing to others. Maybe we are filled with hate towards the ntcc because we see what they do to the ones that God loves. Don't tell us to chill out and that we have to love them and pray for them. It doesn't work that way. We loved them and prayed for them for thirteen years and what did we get for it? If you know my story, you can put the rest together for yourselves. If you think my life was tragic and it was, just think about the many hurt souls that don't go public with their lives. Read the hundreds if not thousands of heart breaking stories on these blogs and factnet.
We have been in contact with many people that are no longer part of the ntcc. Former ministers, bible school students, missionaries and servicemen's home directors, bible school teachers and just plain Christians. They all have horror stories that make the hair stand up on your back but they won't go public and that is their free will choice. I'm saying that you can take all that you see on these blogs and multiply it over and over again and you still can't imagine how sick and twisted the ntcc is.
Don and Ange
I watched a WWII movie, called the Guns of Navarone earlier tonight on my devil vision. Let me tell you that was a sinful movie, they showed a guy smoking a cigarette and it made me want to go and buy a pack. Sure glad that I was able to resist that temptation. Hopefully I didn't poison my heart.
At one point in the movie, Gregory Peck's character Captain Mallory said, "You have to fight hate with hate". There is a lot of truth to that. Jesus did it, Paul did it and we do it. When the religious hypocrites, (you know, the ntcc leadership types), used the bible to attempt to pervert those that wanted to follow Jesus, He didn't spread love all over the place but He rebuked them and called them snakes and vipers, hypocrites and such. Why is this? Why didn't He "take the high road"? Why didn't He rephrase his words and say "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". He wasn't talking to the sinners that killed Him. Killing Jesus was less of a sin to God than hurting the ones Jesus loved. Isn't that amazing.
If you leave them they will drag your name through the mud. They will hurt you and vilify you, but know this: If they will do that to you, they have already done that and worse to Jesus. This is why we fight hate with hate. It is needful and more effective. So the next time you tell us that we need to pray for them and love them, go tell that to the ntcc leadership as Jeff said. They are the ones that need to hear it.
Don and Ange
Hey Jeff,
I had a post that must have gone into your spam folder. If you could check it, I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Don and Ange
mdr said,
"I don't know if you remember, but I worked a job in Junction City. When I got to JC, there was $25 in the general fund, and the $584/mo. van payment was six months behind. The phone got turned off the first week we were there for non-payment. I paid out of my personal money to get it turned back on. There was a home payment of $236/week -- yes that's per week -- and church rent of $600/mo also."
already paid for by church members 10x over probably! the mafia HQ demanded repayment at some loan shark payday interest rate!
"the $584/mo. van payment was six months behind."
bank repos a vehicle after 60-90days!!!! can anyone guess who the BANK was!!!!????
Absolutely right. The bank had to be the church mafia.
"The bank had to be the church mafia."
Good thread idea!
The church mafia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH3Vwj_X02E&NR=1
Jeff said:
"Did the NTCC take the scriptures and twist them while abusing people? Yes, constantly.
Did the NTCC distort the truth to suit their own greed and their desire to control people? Yes, constantly."
Don and Ange said:
Amen Jeff. That's exactly what they do. My point was that they use the bible to get people saved. They took us to Calvary so they could get us saved and then they used us to generate money and bring more people into the cult. They led us to the Cross so that they could pervert that which was pure inside of us. Then they introduced the many doctrines and policies of the ntcc, instituted by rwd as control mechanisms. What control mechanisms you might ask? Forsaking family and friends. Permission to talk to other grown adults. Every little rule you can imagine was imposed on us in the Servicemen's home. I'm not talking about bible school. It was even worse there.
The davis doctrine was the doctrine of complete mind control. They told us how to dress, how to spend our money, who we could or couldn't talk to, Who we couldn't write to, who we couldn't call on the phone, what we couldn't read, what we couldn't watch, what we were allowed to say or not say; do you get the picture here?
They used us and abused us until they broke our will. We gave every ounce of energy and every thing we had to what we thought was the work of God. When we were broken and there was nothing left to give they discarded us like used rags. When we were no longer of any use to them they drug our names through the dirt and spread rumors to justify their actions.
Since we started our ntcc Xer blog we have been in contact with many people. We have heard stories that would brake your heart and make you mad. If you read the archives of this and other blogs like it, you will find hundreds if not thousands of stories that testify against the ntcc, and expose them for the cult that they are. We have heard horror stories that are just as bad or worse than what is on these blogs from folks who do not wish to go public and we honor their wishes by keeping these things in confidence. For every story you read on these blogs there are probably five or six that you will never hear about.
I have basically put my whole life story out there for all the world to know. It wasn't easy and it wasn't something that I enjoyed doing, but it has helped others and myself. I'm sure that sometime in the future the ntcc will do everything they can to discredit me but I just don't care. Why? Because it is taking it's toll on their bottom line. You look at where all the hits are coming from and over half of them are coming from places where the ntcc has established works here in the U.S. and abroad. People are waking up and leaving the ntcc. Praise God!
Don and Ange
Rdub said in a class on 6/6/01, "Preachers forget everything they are taught and think, I don't need this one and I don't need that one. Soon you don't have anybody. Why should they follow you?"
Sounds like Rdub needs to read my worthless notes. At the rate he's going, soon he won't have anyone. Why should anybody follow him?
They say the young ones are going to do what the old ones won't do and they hear the footsteps of our replacements, but I only hear the footsteps of more and more people getting further away from NTCC.
4 missionaries living in PI NOT living in poverty!
They said the same thing to us when we were in their worthless little Bible school. The dirty little secret is that Michael himself told me one time that the young ones coming up are not like our generation. He told me that he didn't see the same dedication. That's so typical of the Ntcc leadership they slam you behind your back and manipulate you into believing that you're the last great hope for the world to your face.
But Michael is right because the first time some of them get punked out by Davis and his sycophant leadership out on the field, they'll be down the road too!
It's interesting that MDR says that the payment for the servicemen's home was $236 a week ($944 for 4 weeks) because that is how NTCC wants you to pay a mortgage for their properties. They receive the benefit of weekly payments and probably reduced interest on the mortgage and the minister is under the gun each week to send in that payment. Also, you are sending it "Pay to the Order of: NTCC", so it must go into some pool of money and the finance company has already been paid and you are essentially repaying them.
Tom Ed Wright said;
"4 missionaries living in PI NOT
living in poverty!"
Hello Tom Ed!
This is so typical. can we just say, another fine boot licking job done by one of the sycophant leaders.
Tom, you might not be living in poverty now, but how-bout all the others that did? Can we say John and Becky in Panama? Can we say J H Olson who has often spoke of how his wife almost died there in the PI and they only had a candy bar to eat? And now you want to come on here and tell us how dub is just showering you with financial blessings. I remember how he treated you in the past...In and out of leadership, made an example of in conference after conference, etc. I guess you past dud's boot licking test, Huh!
Nice try Tom but please Spare us!!!
Tom Ed Wright was on here? lol....where is he?
BK
I think we are making an assumption unless I've missed where he placed his name. Someone wrote that missionaries are not living in poverty but I don't see a name.
Poverty is a relative term. I can tell you this: If you are getting $150 a week and some little cheesy 2-3 thousand draw every now and then, according to today's U.S. standards that is living in poverty. The Oberhausers were living in poverty when they were here in Columbus. They may say they weren't but I disagree. When you can't even buy your wife a $150 digital camera and your van is constantly broke, you are living in poverty.
The suit and white shirt is just a facade. You are broke. The shame is, it shouldn't be that way when the NTCC has so much cash. That is ok. They can live on $150 a week if they want but I'm not the one. Especially when I'm sending money to Graham while the Kekels are sending their son to a private academy at the cost of nearly $20,000 year throughout high school. If Grant attended Charles Wright from K-12 I'm guessing the Kekels/NTCC forked out around $200,000 for his grade school tuition. That is sick when Oberhauser couldn't even afford to buy his wife a digital camera.
Jeff
"Jeff said...
That Bible says the devils also believe and they tremble. According to the NTCC, the devil is very good at twisting the scriptures and they should know.
Did the NTCC take the scriptures and twist them while abusing people? Yes, constantly.
Did the NTCC distort the truth to suit their own greed and their desire to control people? Yes, constantly."
Don and Ange said:
If you get down to the heart of the matter, the ntcc used people outright and discarded them like dirty rags. It's never about souls or getting people to heaven. It's all been a farce. A cruel trick and a bad dream.
My point was that they took that which was pure and defiled it. They messed with peoples lives with no other motive but to achieve money and power. They took people to Calvary only to get their money. They used the preaching of the Cross for financial gain. They know that the preaching the bible will get people saved and when they get them saved they pervert the purity that is in them by introducing them to control policies that are designed to make them follow a man with unwavering loyalty. There is a fine line and it's easy to get off course. Pretty soon you are following ntcc doctrine which is in direct contradiction to the bible and you don't even know it.
How sick is that? It happens continuously. It never stops. People are used and abused every day of their lives and they think they are living for God. When you finally realize what's going on, you can't believe it. You can't accept it. You are forced to make choices about your future and your life that nobody should ever have to make. If you chose to stay, you have to ignore all that you know is wrong. If you choose to accept the truth, you have to start your life all over again. You don't get those years of your life back that you wasted in the ntcc.
If you wonder why we don't pussy- foot around, or why we seem bitter and "full of hate", hear me out because maybe we are. Maybe we do bitterly hate what the ntcc has done to us and what we see them doing to others. Maybe we are filled with hate towards the ntcc because we see what they do to the ones that God loves. Don't tell us to chill out and that we have to love them and pray for them. It doesn't work that way. We loved them and prayed for them for thirteen years and what did we get for it? If you know my story, you can put the rest together for yourselves. If you think my life was tragic and it was, just think about the many hurt souls that don't go public with their lives. Read the hundreds if not thousands of heart breaking stories on these blogs and factnet.
We have been in contact with many people that are no longer part of the ntcc. Former ministers, bible school students, missionaries and servicemen's home directors, bible school teachers and just plain Christians. They all have horror stories that make the hair stand up on your back but they won't go public and that is their free will choice. I'm saying that you can take all that you see on these blogs and multiply it over and over again and you still can't imagine how sick and twisted the ntcc is.
Don and Ange
Jeff Said -
"The suit and white shirt is just a facade. You are broke. The shame is, it shouldn't be that way when the NTCC has so much cash. That is ok. They can live on $150 a week if they want but I'm not the one. Especially when I'm sending money to Graham while the Kekels are sending their son to a private academy at the cost of nearly $20,000 year throughout high school. If Grant attended Charles Wright from K-12 I'm guessing the Kekels/NTCC forked out around $200,000 for his grade school tuition. That is sick when Oberhauser couldn't even afford to buy his wife a digital camera."
Jeff certainly has a point here. Servicemen's Homes bring in loads of money. Unless they have raised the weekly draw for the pastor, they have been authorizing $150.00 for a long time. And he is correct about the $1000.00 draw every now and then.
Let's not talk about interest on loans that must be paid weekly back to the org.
BK
Bixby said...
Serviceman's Homes bring in loads of money.
Jeff said...
Yes they do and the pastors who work there don't get their fair share. Notice my wording: "fair share". That is where the NTCC TOTALLY drops the ball. The pastors work like slaves and the head-shed leaders reap all the "real" monetary benefits. The pastors and helpers get the scraps that fall from the masters table.
It's a scam and it's quite plain to see by anyone who is willing to open their eyes and look at it for what it obviously is.
Jeff
Don't forget that GK is going to a Catholic College in St Louis and unless he got a full ride, someone is paying for that too. According to their own previous standards, he is out of God's will and to think that progeny of the leadership doesn't even want to attend their school. Maybe it was God warning them with that tornado or maybe it was just the devil?
"According to their own previous standards, he is out of God's will and to think that progeny of the leadership doesn't even want to attend their school."
Maybe Grant saw things for what they were and hightailed it out of there!!!
I pray that everyone in the ntcc comes to find God's Grace and the freedom from the chains that man has placed around your neck. It took almost 30 years for me to understand it was never about me, it was always about Jesus. The way to Jesus is not through holiness, it's through the cross. The way to holiness is through Jesus. I think you do God a great disservice when you try to imitate His holiness through your outward appearance. The truth is you’re full of pride because everything about man stinks; you have nothing to do with God’s salvation except you’re a sinner that needs His Grace. Jesus will always have the last word and God's love wins. Amazing Grace, unending Love. God wants us to stop going the way of Cain, it's not about you. Look to the Lord Jesus Christ…
LTravis,
I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you Travis Lundquist?
Someone started talking about people not being poor in the philippines. I don't doubt that there have been missionaries who did quite well taking advantage of the POOR filipina scared tiny women bible school students. Rev. McDonald was big as a house when I saw him in Graham WHILE he was working as a missionary. He came to Graham for a seminar. His wife and him were both overweight. The BIBLE SCHOOL STUDENT WOMEN on the other hand were small. One of them was my girlfriend for a while, and when she was sick or needed to go to the dentist, do you think she could afford it? No. I kept sending her money not for her to buy nice dresses, but so she could buy decent food and go to the doctor when she needed to. But when she was working for Rodrigues after he advised her to quit her job and paid her about 5 dollars a day to be his weed puller, he fed her and THEN she said she was eating good, coz she was eating the PASTOR'S food! See, that's what I'm trying to bring out. People keep trying to PROVE that the missionaries were suffering. Who cares if you can't prove that, or if they are not suffering? Is it ok if the missionaries are not suffering but the bible school students are, because they are not pastors?
Again, it's the shepherds that are fleecing the sheep in the Old Testament that the LORD rebukes, and it's not just RDavis and MC Kekel and JH Olson.
And I'll make another point. Why try to prove that the servicemen's directors were working like slaves? More like working the servicemen like slave-drivers! I fell asleep at the wheel often trying to please Devonshire and bring more and more Marines out to every single event throughout the week! And I DID crash the serviceman's home vehicle and had to pay to have it fixed. Should have made them pay it for working me like a slave.
So, it's not necessarily the shepherds that need to be vindicated in my opinion.
I remember my g.f (at the time) telling me that Sis Mcdonald was telling her that she couldn't understand how the girls in the Bible school (in the Philippines) could eat the way they do. She said she couldn't do that. DUH! They don't have any money!!! Sis MCDonald, do you think they were all on diets??? She reminds me of the book of James, turning the other way and not helping someone, instituting no plans to help the poor in the church, while you are obviously eating great! And you are supposed to be the wife of the good under-shepherd of the Lord Jesus Christ!
But it is not her fault entirely. We as good NTCC ministers have to turn a blind eye to poverty in the church, because the policy as told to me by Kekel is that none of the money for world missions is for "wasteful pastors and CONGREGANTS for that matter." (emphasis mine) If you want to be a good NTCC minister you can't care about people who are suffering. Davis even teaches that you don't care how your brother is doing, and so you shouldn't ask him, "How are you doing?" coz then you are lying.
That's my point. Goodnight!
I remember that crash Kris, why did you have to live in the servicemen’s home on the other side of the Island? I’m sure you could have just came to church then went back to your room to get a good nights sleep and be rested for work and church. But if you did that you would have lost the will of God in your life and the church couldn’t collect that $150 from you for living in the home. Lol Devonshire was a slave driver just like the rest of them. I remember him telling a brother, “school is not good” come to church.
One more thing... Noone needs to PROVE that people are suffering in the Philippines. Everyone in the conference room should have heard McDonald get up and preach that he had a woman at his bible school or in his church that had only enough money for ONE meal!! and she was going to use it to pick people up for church! If that's not a cry for help, I don't know what is. And to top it all off, McDonald DID NOT say he helped her with her situation or even asked the rich big-wigs in Graham for a small contribution to help this poor girl if he couldn't do it himself- which I doubt he couldn't, because he is so fat. He can't even walk straight.
He even said they almost lost the poor girl once. And he was trying to make it sound like it was her DEDICATION that almost killed her. What you are so blind to, Mr. MCDonald is that they are poor and you make their lives even harder, and you lay heavy burdens on them that are grievous to be borne, and you yourselves are not willing to lift them with one of your fingers. You just used her story to promote devotion to the LEADERS.
You folks who were poor here in the states in one of the best economies in the world, just think of how hard it would be to be in a 3rd world country in the same organization with the same mentality that you don't help someone who needs help because you will "KILL THEM!" You think YOU were poor, and you probably were. No one is taking away from your suffering (and our suffering), but just imagine what those women in P.I. must have been experiencing for decades! There is no point in telling the pastor when you have a legitimate need. The church will probably not come together to help you (if the pastor is a good RW Davis follower). He will have to get a waiver from Davis to do something against NTCC standards and policies in order to take money out of the tithes and offerings to help her; the tithes might I add that are supposed to be taken so that "there will be food in the storehouse."
No, It's not for food in the storehouse says NTCC. What's it for then?, comes a cry. None of your business, comes the reply! Now GET BACK TO WORK AND DON'T FORGET TO PAY YOUR TITHE OR YOU WILL GO TO HELL!!!
Answer that one, Rev. Briggs, NTCC spokesman!
Anonymous said...
I remember that crash Kris, why did you have to live in the servicemen’s home on the other side of the Island?
Kris said...
That was a question I tried asking Mr. Devonshire and Mr. Davis himself, but I was told to just keep bringing the Marines by Davis. And he said it's not that far. I had to drive on 3 freeways to get to the base every day, the H-1, the H-2, and the H-3 through a huge mountain. Just the tunnel to go through the mountain was about a mile long. It was a very long trip with traffic in the morning.
Why they couldn't AT LEAST have just had me soul-win soldiers and stay on that side of the island after service is beyond me. But I had to wake up in the morning drive from Wahiawa to Kaneohe Bay then pick up Marines, go to church, etc. wait until late night q and a was over, drive back to Kaneohe, drop Marines off and come back to Wahiawa. It wasn't just that it was far, but I would often run out of gas, and didn't realize I was on E until the end of the night, and then the only way I knew how to get gas was to go out the back gate of K-Bay and go the long way into town and get gas and THEN finally go home.
I wonder if RW Davis ever traversed that same course during rush hour.
There seems to be a cult within a cult in NTCC. You see the Jews were not serving God as a whole, but within them was a sect known as the zealots who were particularly ZEALOUS to fight against Rome, even as terrorists, much like the Moslems today.
I see within NTCC certain men like McDonald who promotes what I now call I-DAV-itry. He used a story of a suffering member of his church to promote the worship of the leaders. You see, the people he was preaching to were generally (as in universally) under the leadership of the man who sat behind him while he was preaching. He was promoting being willing to DIE for your LEADERS, not that we should care for those in our church who are suffering, but that the idea was that the deep Christians in NTCC are willing to die for the leaders, and it is corollary who he was talking about in particular, as so many preachers in the past have used the conference podium to earn brownie points with RW Davis.
So, we have suicidal Christian cult leader, Rev. McDonald.
Then there is the likes of the loud-mouthed wild preacher Rev. Bailley who very near suggested that NTCCers KILL the members of IHOP in a wild display at the Graham Chapel.
See, the problems in NTCC don't always start with Davis and Kekel, but when Davis sits there and behaves like Paul at the stoning of Stephen (he was consenting to his death), though the wild unorthodox un-Christian ideas may not originate with him, he neither approves or disapproves of the behaviour. He is therefore guilty, because Pontius Pilate couldn't play neutral like Switzerland. God sees and requires men to make a decision.
Anyways, the biggest point I want to make is that just saying that RW Davis and Kekel and Olson are the bad guys and everyone below them are just innocent bystanders- I say bologna! If you promote idolatry and murder you are just as guilty. And if you want to stay in a church that is consenting to such doctrines and practices, then wash your hands all you want, you can't disassociate yourself from it. At some point, NTCCers, you have to take a stand against evil in ALL IT'S FORMS!
There is one more preacher that I want to call attention to. And that is Rev. Briggs. I felt like I needed to apologize for what I said about him before, but I don't back up from my opinions about what he stands for. He is still a promoter of NTCC and a defender of that religion. I call him the JUDAIZER, promoting all kinds of Old Testament laws and trying to bring people back under the law, wresting the sacred scriptures of promise into New Testament commands to obey the law. The judaizers were the first recorded sizable enemy of the Christian church. And apparently they have not stopped in 2011.
I believe in holiness and I don't think salvation is a license to sin, but I believe the law was fulfilled in Christ, and we don't need a law to do what is right. We need the Bible. I understand his motive in promoting Old Testament law obedience. It is to substantiate mandatory tithe commandments in NTCC. I would gladly give MORE than 10% of my earnings to a church that was DOING something with the money to help people, and had a building crew that built CHURCHES instead of houses in Graham! Something is seriously wrong with that. For years I thought the building crew was going around building CHURCHES for the organization. I don't remember one person telling me that the building crew built their church for them. If someone knows of 3 or 4 whoop-diddy-doo!!! How many years have they been building houses? and how many houses have they built in none other than the headquarters? Then they teach that the church in Jerusalem needed to get out of Jerusalem and go preach to the world. Hypocrites! You can call my comments snide, but I am just a little bit candid when it comes to preaching against sin, especially to the religious hypocrites. And as far as the houses that have been built in Graham over the years by the building crew, I would estimate it is somewhere upwards of 60 houses. Can anyone come up with an estimate on the number of churches they have built outside of the Graham Chapel?
IF YOU ARE STILL IN NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIAN CHURCH I DARE YOU TO READ THIS. PROVE IT TO YOURSELF
1.The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
2.Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
3.Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
4.The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
5.The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
7.The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
9.The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
10.Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
11.The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
12.The group is preoccupied with making money.
13.Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
14.Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
15.The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
This checklist will be published in the new book, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.
IF YOU ARE IN NTCC AND HAVE READ THIS AND CHOSE TO STAY WITHIN NTCC YOU ARE CHOSING TO CONTINUE BURYING YOUR DOUBTS AND QUESTIONS AND YOU ARE CONTINUING TO KEEP GETTING HURT AND OR ALLOWING YOUR SPOUSE AND LOVED ONES TO GET HURT. I PRAY GOD SHOW YOU HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH MORE THAN PASTOR DAVIS OR ANYONE IN THE ORGANIZATION AND SET YOU FREE.
Here is some information about the following questionnaire I just posted
Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.
Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
GOD LOVES YOU MORE THAN THE ORGANIZATION HE WILL NOT THROW YOU AWAY IT IS BETTER TO PLEASE GOD THAN MAN.
Don't you think that tithes collected should be collected and then re-distributed back to all the churches so that there is equality? I know this does not go well with the capitalistic point of view of so many Joel Olsteen post-modern era Christian preachers, but is that how we gauge whether we are right or wrong? by whether it matches the "every-man-for-himself, survival of the fittest, capitalist" doctrines? Or should the words of Paul be consulted even though it would mean that we would have to admit that Paul promoted communal care for one another in the Christian church? 2Cor 8:13-15
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.
If you talk like Paul in front of NTCCers, they may brand you as a communist, not knowing that Paul taught the same things that they label communism. Capitalism in the church (You work on yourself, and I will work on myself. If you are lazy, you deserve to fail; I just need to use my resources on myself and I am not my brother's keeper. He needs to grow up and take care of himself) is popular because it promotes selfishness, the thing that we are born being. True Christianity is a social environment of people working together to help each other. I don't know if it's the Amish or the Mennonites, but I heard that one of them is like this: if one of their barns burns down, they all get together and rebuild his barn in real quick time.
From my experience in NTCC, I don't remember any collections being taken to help ANYBODY personally who had a catastrophe happen to them. In fact, I remember when the announcement was made that someone's home was burnt down or their church or something (can anybody recall specifically? It was in the small chapel. And Rev. Davis boomed his voice over the mic that no one should give any money to them because they were already taken care of. I wonder if that is true. I don't remember a collection being taken for them. Where was the collection taken? Were they really taken care of by the church that they I assume had been faithful tithers to?
Kris asked "Can anyone come up with an estimate on the number of churches they have built outside of the Graham Chapel?"
http://epip.co.pierce.wa.us/cfapps/atr/epip/search.cfm
In the Bonco Compound area you have the new house of MCK and RWD and there is 17 other houses besides those 2. Then you've got the men's and women's dorms, the different houses that belong to Gesang, DiFrancesco, Ashmore, Johnson (in his name) and Olson's (2 properties in his name). Then RWD's old house is the org headquarters office. So probably something like 32 or 33 houses...
My experience was that missionaries were under strict orders from RWD not to give any missionary support money to the people for any reason, nor were we allowed to provide rides for people to come to church. But when Devonshire went to the PI, he was allowed to hire jeepney drivers and instructed them to fill up the jeepneys and not just with kids. Can anybody say "hired" soul winners?
I remember when the Stevens got jacked up in a conference for having promotions to get people out, and RWD said "I thought God was really doing something there" and they were plowed up and told they were proud. Puh-leeze!!!
When I went to the PI and RWD came for a conference, I will never forget how he and JR Ashmore laughed in my kitchen, making fun of the Steven's for all the personal money they had spent on this work and then were pulled out. My thought was what do they say about me and others when we are not around.
It's all about who RWD wants to prop up or put down.
M. D. Reed
Kris asked...
I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you Travis Lundquist?
Jeff said...
No he's not. How's it going Kris? Good to hear from you. Take care. Don't have much time now, hence the shortage for words.
Jeff
"Maybe Grant saw things for what they were and hightailed it out of there!!!"
Maybe you can go to www.slu.edu , go to People Finder and type in "Kekel" and e-mail him to find out.
MDR said - "My thought was what do they say about me and others when we are not around."
Typically, they will speak about how someone was unable to put "the program" together, the money problems that they have, the car that they drive, the clothes that they wear and will paint any devotion that you had as fanaticism that certainly could not have come from them. e.g "That Reed is over the top..."
When you leave, you get painted privately as a Judas or Absalom in MDR's case, family gets pitted against you, leadership and their wives try to divide your household via "love bombs" and "concern". Any devotion that you had towards eachother gets manipulated because you've "left God" and are "returning to the world". Publically, you are dismissed and your name is not to come up in open conversation or over the pulpit. You are a byword...
I would not go getting Grant involved, it is natural to protect your parents no matter how much of a scoundrel your father or grandfather may be. And really it is not his fault, he just happened to be born into the wrong family and will have to make a clear cut moral decision on how he handles this whole thing in the future. Hopefully for him, he runs into some real Christians and gets saved and does not come back to Graham to take over the family cult.
May God give him grace and wisdom!
TB
"I treated some people bad while I was part of the NTCC but I was following the example of the NTCC leadership and my pastor."
IN or OUT of NTCC everyone is accountable for their own actions. Grown men and women know what's right and wrong! So and So made me do it does not hold up in a court of law or God's law for that matter. The pastor does bear some responsibility but it all comes down to an individual CHOICE.
Wow... This is truly astounding. There you have it! The former Pastor Reed of NTCC is a clear FIRST-HAND witness of what I have been talking about. I deduced from a little bit of critical analysis of certain details that I had acquired over the years what I was pretty sure was the case in the Philippines, and have to admit I had to wonder were my deductions wrong, even though good clean common sense would dictate that I was being far too conservative in my estimations. It was so obvious that the Philipina women were being put under too much stress by NTCC missionaries UNDER THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE HIGHER ECHELONS- NAMELY RW DAVIS, and now we have FIRST-HAND experience from the former missionary to the Philippines himself, but not apparently a brain-washed Davis worshipper like McDonald. I'm going over to the other thread that Jeff just started.
Hello Jeff. I just got feeling spunky again when I read that moronic comment from an anonymous poster about missionaries not being poor. Thanks for the welcome, but I have been here for a while, just not saying much. Just observing.
Anonymous wrote ...
In the Bonco Compound area you have the new house of MCK and RWD and there is 17 other houses besides those 2. Then you've got the men's and women's dorms, the different houses that belong to Gesang, DiFrancesco, Ashmore, Johnson (in his name) and Olson's (2 properties in his name). Then RWD's old house is the org headquarters office. So probably something like 32 or 33 houses...
Kris said...
I said it was probably upwards of 60 by now. Anonymous, thanks for helping figure out this question. I hope others can get involved too and add what they know. Maybe you can tally up the results.
What about the two houses directly inside the compound proper. There were 2 houses along the side of OK Highway inside the fence.
Then there was a house being built for Kinson outside of Bonco proper also along OK Highway but outside the fence. There were also some other houses being built I am pretty sure that were in the same general vicinity. I know this because I went to do an estimate for RW Davis to install a garage door. Gesang wouldn't do a 1099 for me to do it, when I requested that they do that so I would know that it was completely legal and not, "under the table."
So there is at least one down there near the country store, but I think it was more like 3 or 4. When was the last time you were there? Not putting down what you came up with, but I just wonder if what you came up with is current as of 2011. As I recall they were relentlessly building homes in 2009 and if they have been continuing for the last two years, they have probably put up a few more since then.
Anonymous wrote (about Grant)
And really it is not his fault, he just happened to be born into the wrong family and will have to make a clear cut moral decision on how he handles this whole thing in the future.
This is perhaps wise and shows great love for Grant. I think it is a good point for those who DO find reason to contact him to remember to approach him with the attitude that it really isn't his fault.
HOWEVER, on the other hand, he is a grown man at this point. He is old enough to join the military now isn't he? and vote? He is just as accountable in my opinion as Rev. McDonald, Rev. Devonshire, Rev. Bailley, and Rev. Briggs. Should we leave ALL adults in NTCC alone? And not say that fully mature adults are accountable for supporting an org that sends American missionaries to 3rd world countries where they are already poor and imposes strict restrictions on lifestyles that hinder them from getting jobs, telling them to quit jobs, and then all this with a policy from RW Davis that says THAT THEY ARE NOT TO OFFER ANY CHARITY TO THEM??? Not to mention all the abuse that the Americans have also suffered by his guidelines for pastors.
It comes down to this: You are all accountable NTCCers, not just RW Davis and Kekel. By being loyal to them, do you transgress the royal law that says, do unto others as you would have them do unto you? By obeying them, do you disobey God by not GIVING the poor what they have need of, seeing you enjoy this life's benefits?
You who have read this blog, can you read what a returned missionary from the Philippines said? He more than quantifies my statements. If you had reason to question what I said because I haven't actually been a missionary there, now you have to face the cold hard accurate evidence from one who has been there and experienced it, and knows what he is talking about. And I am more confident now in my deductions from what I had seen and heard about missions. The poor are being oppressed by your "loving" Pastor Davis- HA! Where are your answers now, Rev. Briggs? You always seem to try to come on the scene as Super-NTCC Man with all the right answers to put out the fire by us Nero-like Christian persecutors. You are always coming on here to save the day for NTCC. Where are you now, SuperMan? What do you say now?
Anon Said -
"IN or OUT of NTCC everyone is accountable for their own actions. Grown men and women know what's right and wrong! So and So made me do it does not hold up in a court of law or God's law for that matter. The pastor does bear some responsibility but it all comes down to an individual CHOICE."
That is correct. When one begins to back away from some of the mindset of the group, stops and thinks and prays, the Lord is able to lead them in the right direction in the right way using the preacher's ability and personality which will be non abusive. Good point Anon.
Hope I wasn't to preachy here Jeff. ;)
Anonymous replied (I believe in response to TB):
IN or OUT of NTCC everyone is accountable for their own actions. Grown men and women know what's right and wrong! So and So made me do it does not hold up in a court of law or God's law for that matter. The pastor does bear some responsibility but it all comes down to an individual CHOICE.
I read this after I replied to TB in just about the same fashion as this anonymous poster. So I think that seconds the same motion, and I did it out of my own volition.
See, this is what I have to add to this topic (whether Grant should be involved or just to let wander aimlessly throughout life as the prince of a wicked kingdom).
Remember Esther and Mordecai? Did he let her live the life of a queen while others were suffering and she was close to the king and could do something about it? NO! He went to her and INFORMED her what was the case with GOD'S people. The wicked Haman was going to have the Hebrews killed, and the king was going to allow it. So Esther had to be courageous and go withstand the king and tell him that what they were doing was wrong!
No, I don't think Grant should be left alone. I think Grant has COME TO THE KINGDOM FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS! Your time is now, Grant Kekel. You have a chance to stand up for the oppressed or live life with a silver spoon in your mouth. What about Moses? Should God have just left Moses alone because he was born into Pharaoh's palace? When the time came that he was older, God spoke to him to tell Pharaoh, LET MY PEOPLE GO! Stand up to your dad, Grant, and even- yes- your scary old mean "Papa!"
Bixby Knolls said:
the Lord is able to lead them in the right direction
This seems on the surface to be a nice thing to say, but there are perhaps subtle nuances of "leave them alone and let God deal with them" apparent in his/her speech. Sorry if I got you pegged all wrong, Bixby, but I think that MAY be what you are getting at. If not, please disregard the following and accept my personal apologies. I will continue in case others wonder if this is the right remedy for Grant and others.
Careful Bible exegesis shows contrary evidence that God only deals with people directly. God works "inside history" using physical people to carry out his judgments and blessings. He USED Babylon to execute judgment on Judah and Assyria on Israel.
He at times works "outside of history" and acts directly on people in judgment like with Sodom and Gomorrah reigning directly fire and brimstone.
In giving messages to people, he spoke directly to Paul on the way to Damascus, but then used Peter to preach to Cornelius the way to salvation. Just leaving people alone and letting God deal with them is not often what God tells us to do. What about Cyrus king of Persia who let the Jews go and rebuild Jerusalem? Should he have just said, let God bless them?
I would not have perhaps had the boldness to leave if I did not read from others what they shared about the abuses of NTCC leadership so that it substantiated my own memories and qualified them as not being figments of my imagination or just the results of me "having a Pepsi with the devil."
Funny, my word verification for Google on this reply is "flede" How appropriate. I wish others would flee from the oppression of NTCC.
Okay, Bixby, I think I understand what you are saying. I re-read what you said, and I guess you ARE saying that people can talk to people like Grant and others and thereby be used by the Lord in a non-abusive way. Is that what you are saying? If so, I think this is a sound and practical bit of advice. We should if we approach Grant use tact of course, and consider that he was in fact born into it. If you attack him, he will just think you are the enemy. Don't be a ZEALOT and attack him withe rage you feel towards his dad and "papa." He is not guilty as them by virtue of being their son. What I think should be done is that someone with tact and professionalism should approach him and explain to him as Mordecai did to Esther and as the Lord did to Moses what the oppression of God's people is in the NTCC, and admonish him that he should be the one to do something about it and cause him to recognize his unique position and opportunity to really make a difference and stand against evil. The sad thing is, I am doubtful that he has been raised with a Christian caring heart. It would be a miracle for someone who was raised in an environment that fosters callousness towards people's sufferings to turn around and actually defend the sufferings of those by their oppressors. Common sense would say that just as kings are groomed for the kingdom, in callousness and ambition, Grant has probably been groomed from birth to see nothing wrong with his world. At least he is showing the world that he is apparently rebelling to a degree by not following in his dad's footsteps. He apparently wants nothing to do with this mess called NTCC. Even if he doesn't make a bold move to defend the oppressed, and just becomes more and more separate from the NTCC, that alone should be a great testimony to us who preach against NTCC. Grant Kekel doesn't want to be a part of this. That is profound! He does not regard the ministry as something to be desired. He would rather just go to college. It has been said that RW Davis started a Christian school when Tanya was growing up and she went through it along with others, and when Tanya graduated, the school was ended. A sophisticated Sunday School was established in Graham while Grant was growing up as a kid. One tends to wonder if he was the reason for all this. Up until Grant came along, the church in Graham was apparently just a preacher's church. It was closed to the public. Then according to Jeff, thousands and thousands of dollars were pumped into Grant's Christian education. You can't tell me that Davis and Kekel didn't want Grant to be a preacher. But now is it true, Jeff, that Grant is going to a secular college? I have heard things about this, but is it true or just speculation or a rumour? If it is true, what a profound statement that is about NTCC, after so many preacher's kids went to seminary, the founder's OWN GRANDSON chose to NOT go!
""I treated some people bad while I was part of the NTCC but I was following the example of the NTCC leadership and my pastor."
IN or OUT of NTCC everyone is accountable for their own actions. Grown men and women know what's right and wrong! So and So made me do it does not hold up in a court of law or God's law for that matter. The pastor does bear some responsibility but it all comes down to an individual CHOICE."
Grown men and women don't always know what's right and wrong, especially when they are subject to mind control. Why do you think they call it mind control if that's not what it means? Paul himself said that he was "zealous toward God" while persecuting Christians. So if you are doing what you think is right, isn't that pretty much all you can do? I myself am sick over some of the things I said and did back then, but I also realize that under those circumstances, I made these choices in good faith and can't see how I could have behaved differently.
Have some compassion. Were you so perfect in NTCC?
"But now is it true, Jeff, that Grant is going to a secular college? I have heard things about this, but is it true or just speculation or a rumour?"
Well, if you try the people finder, you'll see him listed there, and his email address. I personally think people should just leave him alone. None of us have a beef with him.
Vic said,
I made these choices in good faith and can't see how I could have behaved differently.
Kris said ...
Vic,
I think your replies add a good balance to the discussion, but I think I covered that side of the coin. There are always two sides to every story, I know, but there comes a time when the revelation comes, and then you have to make a conscious choice. I know some people are still fully brain-washed, but there are people in the NTCC who have to turn a blind eye to what they have to do, and when someone shows them by the Bible how that what they are doing is contrary to the Bible, then they have to make a choice, and I'm pretty sure Davis has preached that we will all stand before God one day and we won't be able to say, Preacher so-and-so made me do it. Well, take some of your own medicine, NTCC pastors. You preach that same doctrine. Do you yourself disobey the Bible because Pastor Davis tells you, as Rev. Reed, the returned missionary to the Philippines, told us from his experience that Davis taught that you don't give them anything to help them?
I think it really helped me to make my decision to flee for freedom when I realized it was a question of morals, not a question of personal freedom for me to go and get rich like Kekel. You talk about me wanting to pose the moral question in front of ntccer's eyes. Well, consider this, Vic. I for one think what some of you post about is quite inconsequential. I don't think it is a matter of being able to leave and live out all your secular hopes and dreams. I think this is beside the point. If you are a Christian, you know by the Bible that you may not be afforded this opportunity. You are preaching this idea to people who are willing to sacrifice all they have for God. Do you think you are getting much headway? Maybe to the people who want to have a big house and be like Kekel and Davis, but what about the people who legitimately want to still sacrifice their life as a living sacrifice to God, and don't care about having nice things; they just want to be right with God?
To you all I say this: it is your moral duty to do as Esther the queen and Moses the prince. You need to do what is right and stand up to oppressors. You have a moral obligation, especially you of high rank and position and filial relations!
"Have some compassion. Were you so perfect in NTCC?"
Nope! I never abused anyone and said RWD made me do it. Have compassion on the abused!
No I wasn't perfect. I was as judgmental as the rest. This is all the more reason for this blog. I know what the NTCC tactics can cause because I experienced it first hand. There is one thing for sure. I didn't just dream that stuff on my own. We followed the examples set by our pastors. That doesn't make it right and that certainly doesn't excuse our actions but it does show a cause.
It's the same thing that still causes NTCC pastors to remain so abusive. RWD and the NTCC leadership and the system they have in place which is a system that I currently stand against and have continued to do so consistantly for over three years.
Jeff
"Nope! I never abused anyone and said RWD made me do it. Have compassion on the abused!"
I do, having been one of them. But there is a vast difference between the puppet and the puppeteer. I never abused people either in the classical NTCC sense, but I still treated people in ways that I regret and which stemmed from the pernicious influence of these "leaders," and I can see that others may have gone even further in an attempt to be obedient to what they regarded as an apostle who never missed God and does everything by the Holy Ghost. If you weren't deceived, then why on earth did you become part of a corrupt organization? Are you better than others because you were less deceived? Who gets to draw the line on what degree of deception is acceptable?
If you were an Israelite, would you have obeyed Moses when he said to kill everything that breathed? RW represented himself as a modern day Moses, and many believed him and did things against their own natures. That's easy to understand and forgive, if you are a gracious person.
Kris said,
"Answer that one, Rev. Briggs, NTCC spokesman!"
let the man chill!
Vic said...
That's easy to understand and forgive, if you are a gracious person.
Jeff said...
Yes easy enough to forgive but not forget, because to forget, you'd have to completely turn off your memory which under most circumstances is not possible. Of course you understand that Vic and I know that, which is exactly why this blog exists. I may have gotten deceived for a variety of reasons but forums such as this one, factnet, Don and Ange's, the Shunks and others serve to provide people with information that was hidden from us. Not all but much of it was certainly hidden from me. Initially I truly believed that many of my experiences were isolated.
After reading factnet and Tracy's blog for a while I rapidly realized that my experiences in the NTCC were common among many others.
Jeff
M.D. Reed wrote..."I remember when the Stevens got jacked up in a conference for having promotions to get people out, and RWD said "I thought God was really doing something there" and they were plowed up and told they were proud. Puh-leeze!!!"
Gregory writes...Rev. Stevens was paying people (after the service) to come/that came to church. This was the 'promotion'...come to church, and we will give you money.
Pastor Davis told me/us this during one of the many conferences Deborah and I attended in PI. Rev. Stevens was standing right there (he was still the Pastor in Angeles City) as Pastor Davis was sharing (making fun of/belittling) this with anyone within earshot.
This is why there was such an uptick in attendance, for a time, while Rev. Stevens was Pastoring.
The little bit of money (1 peso) these people were getting after each service made a difference (you all have already discussed how poor the Philippine people are).
Pastor Stevens was paying these people out of the small stipend he was getting from HQ. This was the main problem Pastor Davis had with it (as he shared). He didn't want the organization's money going to the poor...it was to take care of the missionary (as he also shared). And that if Pastor Stevens had extra money to give away, he would reduce his support (as he also, also shared).
His wife was in greater want so Rev. Stevens could increase his attendance.
We used to feel sorry for Pastor and Sister Stevens because Rev. Stevens was always poor mouthing about how poor he was (even though he and his wife worked each time they have been in Korea). But after we found out (from Pastor Davis again) they were poor (come to find out from Pastor Davis they have savings) because of how tight Rev. Stevens is with their personal money (even by NTCC standards) we stopped paying for their meals, and buying things for them, and giving big offerings to their church (a few years too late).
Glad I am now free to better take care of me and my family.
Gregory
Look what Greg wrote. The NTCC is just full of bones in the closet. So Stevens could have been my pastor. Wow that would have been great. What a privilege. NOT!!!!!!!!
Jeff
Greg said ...
"Gregory writes...Rev. Stevens was paying people (after the service) to come/that came to church. This was the 'promotion'...come to church, and we will give you money.
The little bit of money (1 peso) these people were getting after each service made a difference (you all have already discussed how poor the Philippine people are)."
Kris said...
Greg, Are you saying that the Stevens' were doing something that was, in your opinion, inappropriate by giving the peso to the members?
I am just trying to get the right message you are conveying. Thanks.
Kris
Gregory said, about Rev. Stevens...
"But after we found out (from Pastor Davis again) they were poor (come to find out from Pastor Davis they have savings)"
Kris said ...
Not sure if you are saying that you found out that they really were poor or that they have savings, but I deduced from your closing statements after this that you concluded that they were not poor, and had savings.
Sorry, Jeff appears to have understood you clearly, Greg, so I guess it's just me.
Greg said ...
"Pastor Stevens was paying these people out of the small stipend he was getting from HQ. This was the main problem Pastor Davis had with it (as he shared). He didn't want the organization's money going to the poor...it was to take care of the missionary (as he also shared). And that if Pastor Stevens had extra money to give away, he would reduce his support (as he also, also shared)."
I am thinking that you are simply stating the facts without any particular bias here. That is why I suppose at times in this message it seems that you are on one side putting down Rev. Stevens and at times (within the same short message) expressing disapproval with the same Rev. Stevens. Please forgive me if I just need to put my head on straight. I haven't eaten my dinner yet, so maybe I need to get some brain fuel before I start reading posts.
What Greg is saying is that while Stevens may have possibly expressed some charity towards those in PI in giving them a financial incentive to come to church, it was condemned by the leadership (RWD) in an open setting. Further, while offering this incentive, Stevens would express openly that he and his wife had meager resources. Later it was discovered that they both worked on a job and should have had a steady stream of income, and through their own frugality had savings, Stevens would still "poor mouth". "Poor mouthing" is the constant speaking of your financially precarious position in order to achieve a desired result. The 2 variations are the "woe is me" and is negative and the other is the "can you be a blessing" variation. Stevens chose the latter. For example, you would mention it in front of church members to mean "you need to start paying your tithe" or "you need to take care of the man of God". You would do this in front of fellow ministers in order to say "can you buy me lunch" or "I need a new pair of shoes".
Sounds like Psychology of Self Indulgence to me...
Cream of the crop. Sarah i know that i should not be posting this here but tony Hampton says high.
Sarah Goodwin just wanted to say high been a long time since i heard thatname but never forgot it. Tony H
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