I work not far from a friend who together with me used to attend the same New Testament Christian Church. We went to eat lunch yesterday and talked about our quality of life, specifically since we left the NTCC. He left the New Testament Christian Church about 5 years ago and I left about 4 years ago. He recently became a Warrant Officer and he and his family are doing exceptionally well. I currently have the best job I ever had in my life and I am also doing extremely well. We have another friend who is getting ready to become a Commissioned Officer, (who also used to be in the NTCC and no longer is) and he is also doing very, very well.>
All of us have great retirement plans and all of us enjoy life tremendously. None of us enjoyed life nearly as much nor did any of us enjoy nearly the level of prosperity while we were in the New Testament Christian Church . Why is that? Is Christianity supposed to be drudgery surrounded by poverty?
>
The fact is, just about everyone I talk to (who used to be in the NTCC and has gotten out) almost without exception, has a far better life than they did while they were with the New Testament Christian Church. NO COMPARISON!! Now I've taken notice of one significant exception here. Many women who were doing poorly (like the rest of us) while they were in the NTCC are still doing poorly since they've left the NTCC. I know why that is. Women in the NTCC are treated like second class citizens and often treated quite poorly. They are deprived of any chance of obtaining any professional credentials, they are constantly psychologically abused and misused, and quite frankly many of them get severely messed up in the head. They become rather dysfunctional in many cases and their biggest problems really begin when for a variety of reasons they find themselves needing to provide for themselves. Ladies listen up and listen good. The NTCC absolutely messes you up and you get messed up royally and do you know why? I'll tell you why quite "matter of factly". Because what the NTCC teaches is outright false doctrine from a Biblical standpoint and you ladies wind up as the unfortunate victims of this diabolical debacle.
>
For the most part, us guys maintain certain job skills even while we are with the NTCC which allows us to keep some degree of marketability. For you ladies it is not so. Guys maintain some level of "self confidence" and "self worth" and once again, for you women it is not so because it is stolen from you. So what is the end result? You unfortunate ladies who haplessly and disastrously stumble across the NTCC, quite often get psychologically and occupationally screwed up for life.
>
How can I say that with such certainty and know I'm right? Because since I've started this blog, I've received many phone calls from NTCC and exNTCC women, and often the resounding commonality is that they are messed up in the head and I mean royally. I'm sure many of them wouldn't mind me writing this as they had no reservations expressing that fact. Not only did they share that information but it was fairly evident as I talked to them. Just as with many ladies who are still in the NTCC, things didn't work out between them and their husbands however the husbands made out fine but to the contrary, the women were left high and dry. Either that, or the women remained married but had been so screwed up in the head while in the NTCC, they didn't know how or couldn't lead a productive prosperous life. Thank God I got my wife out of that mess when she did. She still hasn't got over the way she was treated by certain jerk NTCCers and frankly I haven't either cause I feel guilty that I didn't pull her completely out of that mess the very first time it happened. She was following me! The NTCC leaves deep, life lasting scars.
>
Women, your one and only life here on this earth is being stolen from you. That is NOT God's plan or intent, nor was it ever. RWD's male chauvinistic pig ways are affecting you in ways many of you can't even imagine right now, but one day you will, however then it will likely be too late. Many of you get a job making a paupers wage but any type of retirement and rest is nowhere in your future here on earth. Some do get a job earning a decent wage, but have gotten too old to reasonably expect to save enough money to ever retire. Hey I'm just being real. The NTCC has stolen any chance of that ever happening unless you are Tanya Kekel or very close to her. Sure there are a few exceptions but not many. For every woman in the NTCC who is the exception, there are thousands who are not. I'd don't like those odds. Ladies, those odds are not in your favor.
>
Ladies and Gentlemen; get out of the NTCC and take your life back and live the life that God intended, because along with many of my friends, I can promise you, life is far better outside NTCC walls. The NTCC doom and gloom false prophets are liars who've prophesied poverty on all who leave their crooked organization. My life and the lives of many others stand as a testament to their false predictions.
>
If you feel trapped by the NTCC call me, I may have good advise for you.
>
Chief
190 comments:
Chief, I am so glad that you are mentioning what the ladies have to go through. I was "just a member" you know, one of the second class citizens. That is how I was treated by the Graham church the entire time I was there, except of course, the door greeters, you know who you are. If I made any attempt to even make friends with some of the preachers wives, it never went very far. This is only my experience, I cannot even fathom what the ladies married to these ministers went though. I always wondered, is it me? Why do I get the cold shoulder from preachers wives when I would see them out and about. Why, I come to find out, they are taught it Bible college, do not associate with the members, they take it so literal. I have been ignored, shunned and every thing else you can think of by these so called Christian women. This is my experience, a select few and I mean I can count on one hand showed friendliness towards me. I say this all to say, is this the way we should treat our "brothers and sisters" in the Lord. I got more of a friendly demeanor from the "sinner world" than I did while attending NTCC. What are these people robots. Do they not have mind to think for themselves? Apparently not. Also chief, you are right, I still have issues after leaving the NTCC. I am working through them, but I still have a long way to go. I can only imagine the women that do leave, wifes of ministers and such. I can imagine it is very hard for them, the women are the ones that really needed to make the drastic changes, ie: appearance, manner of dress, social changes, losing family, quitting a job, and then their husbands still probably expect them to look exactly like they did before they left the NTCC. Thats easy for them to say, they don't have to wear skirts on freezing cold days, long hair down to their waists, no make up, if men had to give up all that it would be tough. They would not do it. The NTCC strips women of every ounce of their sense of self, not just the outside but the inside too. Not only can you not look anything like you once did, you can't even act like you once did, it's like your whole personality must change too. You know what, putting on a act only works for so long, its just a show a big act. Fake fake fake. Dressing and "looking" like a Christian does not make it so.
Signed, still dealing with the afteraffects.
Anonymous asked...
Why do I get the cold shoulder from preachers wives when I would see them out and about?
Chief said...
Because they think they are better than you. Believe me when I tell you that. They will frequently introduce themselves as, "Hi I'm "pastor" so and so's wife." It's like a badge of honor to them. They are fairly stuck up like that. Not all of them mind you and probably not even most of them but some of them biddys up in Graham certainly fall in that category and I've met other pastor's wives who do as well. Like I said, they simply think they are better than you and that is just the bottom line.
If they are "School of rule i.e. Bible school graduates", they definitely think they are in a different class than you. You better believe it. They are like the Pharisees. I hope that explains it. Some sisters are real. Sister Shunk was one of them. That is why she no longer is with the NTCC. They often sit separately from church members unless of course they are trying to "win you".
When you are a church member it's like you are sitting at the children's table and the ministers are sitting at the adults table. They used to do it during fellowship meetings. For a long period of time you couldn't even go out to eat with ministers. What a complete joke and I told several pastors that I felt that way. After a while they changed that but it never should have been that way in the first place.
Chief
Anonymous said...
I got more of a friendly demeanor from the "sinner world" than I did while attending NTCC.
Chief said...
Bingo. That sums it up and that is quite commonly understood. Many NTCC people simply aren't very nice. They are fake and fake people aren't very nice. Life is so much better without having to deal with fake people.
Chief
Amen, Chief. I'm glad my wife left with me, and our lives are so much better now that there is no comparison, like you said. Those lying scoundrels try to persuade their captive minions that those who have escaped the spiritual concentration camp which is NTCC are cursed and miserable. They wanted us to think that any movement toward that door they were always inviting us toward would result in personal calamity and irreversible doom. It's just mind controlling BS--the truth is that everyone I can think of who has left is doing better (with the exceptions you noted). However, it is my opinion that a woman is still better off in poverty outside NTCC than enslaved to those phony lords over God's heritage in the org.
RW was always bloviating about how he'd rather sit on an apple crate and eat balogna and live for God (maybe he should try to live for God for a change) than prosper in sin. Well, I'd rather sit on an apple crate and eat balogna and have my liberty from those parasites than be a cheese eater and eat the crumbs from their tables.
I'm with you, Chief--I hate the NTCC and its destructive ways, and wish it would perish from off the face of the earth.
Vic said...
However, it is my opinion that a woman is still better off in poverty outside NTCC than enslaved to those phony lords over God's heritage in the org.
Chief said...
I completely agree with that one. The sooner they leave the less damage the org can inflict. It's just so terrible how thoroughly the org messes up women. They really need to get out of the NTCC. The women get messed up worse than the men do and really believe that. Of course everyone gets messed up by the NTCC but I believe women do more severely.
Chief
Vic said...
RW was always bloviating about how he'd rather sit on an apple crate and eat bologna and live for God (maybe he should try to live for God for a change) than prosper in sin.
Chief said...
Vic, that is rather ironic being that RWD is doing exactly that; prospering in sin. His sins are just about as destructive as any I know. A drunk slut who leaves people alone other than her sex partners is far lest destructive to man kind than RWD. At least she provides pleasure. RWD provides insult and anguish and a bunch of unnecessary rules that he hasn't even enforced upon his own family.
Chief
Hey Chief, we're miserable down here on vacation in Florida for a week, and it's only going to get worse--we're leaving for Antigua next week, and then heading to New Orleans for Mardi Gras. I'm off for a month of paid vacation, and will still have about three weeks left when we get back. Such is my NTCC-less accursed life!
I know that it's hard to surpass the pleasures of driving across country in an old junker to conferences on unpaid leave only to be browbeaten and insulted, but we're doing what we can. Life is such a bummer now.
We're going to see Doug and Janet Allen tomorrow. I'm sure they must be just as forlorn as we are, since Janet is an RN now and they have their own home. No doubt they miss the days of eking out a living and giving all their money to filthy rich abusers. We'll try to encourage one another, but it's going to be hard.
I'm a guy and I've been occupationally effected as well.
Going from job to job to job to try and get a job that falls in line with their rules. No weekends, no missing church, only 40 hours a week. You're stuck with low wage jobs.
I finally got a job once that paid well and they wanted me to stay but I had to quit because it occasionally required weekends.
After many years, I was out of work again and after that and I had enough. I said the next job I get I am not going to quit. Quitting and starting many jobs also looks bad when you're trying to get a job.
Since the new decent paying job had odd hours, I missed some church services. I wasn't going to miss needed sleep just to go to church and not function well at work.
Ever since then, I was looked down upon
yet God didn't look down upon me and I know that for a fact.
Get out of the NTCC people. Yes, they may let you go to school now, but that is just to keep your money rolling in to pay for false prophet Davis and Kekel's son and their earthly whims.
And I do say false prophet because in the old testament, if something was said and it didn't come true, that meant they were false prophets.
With all the people who have left and continue to leave, God is still with those people because He loves them. It has nothing to do with NTCC.
Whew-- ok, I'm going to watch Sanford and son on youtube now.
Good Times Episode: God's Business is Good Business - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smpzRbZcy5w
We need James Evan to go to NTCC. Lol.
Anonymous said:
"And I do say false prophet because in the old testament, if something was said and it didn't come true, that meant they were false prophets."
DnA said:
That is the plain truth. Very well said, Anonymous, it is plain and simple. The ntcc preachers throw around scriptures for every purpose under the sun except when it comes to your lives. They are good at making rules and policies that control you but they are out of control. They are false prophets and they add to God's word and they also take away from it. They twist the scriptures to justify their own lives but they require you to walk a path that is so narrow an ant would fall off it if he sneezed.
The ntcc does not want you to prosper. They want you to have a low paying job and they will discourage you from paying for benefits also. They don't want you to make enough money to enjoy your life, but they want you to give large portions of your money to them so they can enjoy their lives. What is so absurd about this is that they do this openly in front of the whole world without any shame. In Graham, the multi-millionaires parade their riches right in front of you, they drive by in their BMW's and Cadillacs, They live in their mansions and all of their wealth and riches are in your face constantly, but you ntcc'rs are not able to afford bare necessities in life. While you are struggling to make ends meet the royal families are laughing at you while they take up collections for Rolex Watches and Henry Rifles. You are being played for fools. You are being used like a pimp uses prostitutes.
If you love God, you'll keep His commandments and His commandments aren't grievous but this shameless and phony bunch of hypocrites in Washington will not lift one of their fingers to make your burdens lighter, but they are living in luxury right before your eyes and you refuse to open them and see for yourself. We are just a bunch of haters and bitter X-ers. What will it take for people to realize that they are following false prophets and liars?
DnA
Wow Vic...........I mean, Dude, You and your wife have the heart of Rocky Balboa in all of his movies combined to be able to go through what you-all have gone through since leaving NTCC. I think if I were going through what you are going through right now I would just close up shop and commit Harri-Kari.
This Blogsite has really been an eye opener for me. I'm going to call Mike Kekel today, tell him I'm on my way to Graham (with wife in tow)empty my Bank accounts, sell my Rolex watch,Goldwing Trike (Paid cash for),Mustang Convertible that I bought for my wife (paid cash for), and give up my Business that I started about 5 years ago. I can't wait to get back up there so I can live from paycheck to paycheck,Get on Food Stamps,SSI,Welfare, AND look for freebees from Fred Meyer etc....
(Slap on the face, like in the old Hai Karate commercials)
........Thanks, I, I needed that!!!!!!!!
Vic said...
I know that it's hard to surpass the pleasures of driving across country in an old junker to conferences on unpaid leave only to be browbeaten and insulted, but we're doing what we can. Life is such a bummer now.
Chief said...
Ha, ha. Yeah Vic, life is really tough now that I've left the NTCC and it just gets worse. I have too much money and I don't know what to do with it. I didn't have that problem in the NTCC. Unlike Davis, "I've" purchased my own gun collection with "my own" money and what to do with all those guns? I had to go out and buy a gun safe of all things because of my firearm addiction; can you imagine that Vic? Times are tough.
Now because we are such sinners, my wife teaches school which is such a horrible occupation. Can you believe she has the audacity to help little children learn things like math and spelling? She is such a sinner and I think it's because she read Proverbs 31 too many times. I tried to keep her away from that chapter. I need a woman who sits around the house all day and does nothing but get fat and clean "MY" house and fix "MY" food. She better not get pregnant either cause that is so ungodly. Can you believe the leaders in my wife's school district only let my wife have the whole summer off, along with all the holidays and just one little short spring vaction? And because she gets paid for all that "time off" now she is going out spending "MY" money on things like shoes? We didn't have that problem before. I don't know what to do Vic? I think we need to almost run out of money again.
And Vic listen to this. On top of all that, we took a cruise to the Bahamas, St. Thomas and St. Martin this summer and the bright sun was just horrible. I actually had to put sun screen on top of my bald head of all things. I wouldn't have that problem if I lived in old cloudy Graham attending the school of rules I mean the NTCS. You don't have to worry about getting a sunburn standing against the wall waiting to talk to someone of the opposite sex. I'll bet you didn't know that Vic?
Life is so hard now Vic. I only have three cars and they all work? I need one to break down so I can occupy my time more effectively. Maybe I'll go to conference next year. It's sure to break down between here and there. Yeah we got it pretty tough Vic. Life is such a bummer now; just like RWD and his prophets all said it would be. Oh, and would you believe that I actually have to work for a living? So much for the hope of being "full time" so I can spend everyone elses money on things like Rolexs, guns, knives, Cadillacs and real-estate.
Don't tell anyone Vic but can you believe my daughter is going to a "SECULAR" college? She is not supposed to do THAT! Only someone as spiritual as the Kekel's son can handle the temptations surrounding that kind of environment. I don't know what to do Vic.
Chief
Oh and one last thing Vic. I mustered enough nerve to watch a football game the other day. I wanted to see if it was as bad as the NTCC leaders said it was. It was absolutely HORRIBLE Vic. Those ugly women on the sidelines jumping all around in their little skimpy outfits. Does anyone have the phone number to the Kekel's son? I need to learn what his parents taught him about how you stay a Christian with all those girls jumping around on the sidelines at football games. He stayed a Christian all through high school with that stuff going on so I know he has the answer. Didn't you know that everyone in the Davis, Kekel family is immune to temptations.
If I ever watch another football game Vic I think I might die. Life is such a stinker now that I've left the NTCC.
Chief
Don't tell anyone Vic but can you believe my daughter is going to a "SECULAR" college?
Oh my!!! It's worse than I thought. A secular college? Dude, I mean, This is like "Exorcism" time.
Tubular Bells in the background playing.......
Mark said...
Oh my!!! It's worse than I thought.
Chief said...
Oh yeah Mark, it's pretty bad. If only I knew how the Kekel's son handles all that and still stays right with GAWD. The Kekels have all the answers Bro that we just ain't spiritual enough to get. I'm dealing with it; barely.
Challenged Chief
Mark said...
Dude, I mean, This is like "Exorcism" time.
Challenged Chief said...
Dude, I know. I tried to take her to a priest at Grant's Catholic college for the "Exorcism' but her head started spinning around in circles and she wouldn't have it. I don't know what to do? I think the only choice I have left is Ashmore. That dude is like really charismatic. He ought to be able to cast that thing out.
Challenged Chief
The ntcc is built with the blood of slaves...This song explains what is going on...http://youtu.be/Mqia1Ft1Zy4
The ntcc is built with the blood of slaves...
Dude, we were chillin and you decided to get like serious. Man we can't think that deep right now, you know what I mean? We were talking about exorcisms and stuff. Lighten up dude. All Davis needs to do is drink a little Nyquil and everything will be real smooth and things. We are trying to figure out how to get used to not being with the NTCC. It's hard for us man.
"Dude, I know. I tried to take her to a priest at Grant's Catholic college for the "Exorcism' but her head started spinning around in circles and she wouldn't have it. I don't know what to do? I think the only choice I have left is Ashmore."
A mere mortal like Ashmore wouldn't stand a chance. You need the combined forces of Smith Wigglesworth, Jimmy Swaggart, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Joyce Meyer, and Aimee Semple McPherson. Also throw in Paul and Jan Crouch, as well as Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker.
Wait a minute!!!!!!! If R'Dub,,,,er......I mean.....If God be for us, who can be against us?
Mark said...
Wait a minute!!!!!!! If R'Dub,,,,er......I mean
Chief said...
Maybe RDUB could convince her to leave here full secular college and attend Grant's half secular Catholic college. Them Catholics ain't too bad you know. I don't know what to do. If I'd only stayed with the NTCC I wouldn't have all these problems. To much money, to much vacation time, too much sun, a daughter who needs an exorcism because she is not attending a half secular Catholic college.
Dude I can't take it anymore. Where is the nearest NTCC church? I can't deal with all this fun. I don't want to go any longer without taking some good old fashioned abuse and humiliation. Where is RWD and his ministers when you need them?
Chief
The ntcc is built with the blood of slaves...This song explains what is going on...http://youtu.be/Mqia1Ft1Zy4
Click the "video link" to see "Zion & Babylon" by Josh Garrels. Originally posted by LTravis
"Dude I can't take it anymore. Where is the nearest NTCC church? I can't deal with all this fun. I don't want to go any longer without taking some good old fashioned abuse and humiliation. Where is RWD and his ministers when you need them?"
You know, Your story about having to much money, to much fun,Owning your own home, Daughter going to secular college etc...It really breaks my heart to hear this, Chief. I'm afraid if I were in your shoes I might commit suicide. It's to bad we have an end to canonical text or your story could be part of the Book of Hebrews. This is chilling......
Let this be a lesson to ALL of the people who are currently in NTCC. This could be YOU!!!!!!!
Mark said...
It really breaks my heart to hear this, Chief
Chief said...
Crying... I know Bro, I know. If I could only find an NTCC church. I have all this money now and I know how desperately RWD need another Rolex. If I could only give at least $1000, his ministers would only have to collect another $16,500. I know how bad they need my support. What will RWD do if he doesn't get his Rolex. I just can't tell you how bad I feel for him right now knowing how much he really wants a presidential Rolex. If I could only give Bro, if I could only give.
I know; I'll sell all that I have and pull my daughter out of college. Then his poor ministers won't need to take up anymore collections for guns and knives and rolexs for RWD. I'll just give him all my money. Boy am I so happy now that I have that terrible burden of my chest. Thanks Mark. I couldn't have done it without you Dude.
Chief
I got an idea. I'll just give RWD my entire gun collection. He only has about 50, he needs at least 20 more. If I can only bless RWD, guns will start falling from the sky and I'll get blessed with twice the number of guns that I had in the first place and gave away to RWD cause I blessed the man of God.
Boy, I can't possibly think of any better thing to do with my money than give it all away to the NTCC. That way, RWD will never run short on guns, knives, watches and Cadillacs. And if I give all my money away, I don't have to worry about having any. Wow, that will give me a whole lot less to worry about.
Chief
Chief,
My older brother, is not a member of the NTCC but rather a member of the House of Prayer Christian Church in Fayetteville, NC. I've been researching online and it appears that House of Prayer Christian Churches are a product of NTCC (although they are not affiliated with one another--I read that a member of NTCC started House of Prayer), does this sound accurate to you? Regardless, I'm here to ask for help. My brother is trapped in their world and I no matter what I say or do he refuses to listen to me; and I honestly do fear for his well being. He even opted to not reenlist in the ARMY because the Church said he shouldn't, and now he's getting married to a female he doesn't know simply because the Church arranged it (not to mention after they are married they are moving to Washington state BECAUSE THE CHURCH ORDERED THEM TO DO SO, but of course they covered it up by saying it's what "God" wants them to do).
I'm really at a loss as to what to do. If you can offer up any advice at all, I'd greatly appreciate it.
-Mandi N.
Right on Jeff. We left a few years ago. My wife was raised in the church, RWD visited her mom the day she was born in the Hospital!
Back in the good old days? When love ruled!
We were in Virginia, pioneering a church. I had just started a new job, and connie was 2 months pregnant with our second child.
It was conferance time, and as a loyal child of God, I told my boss I had to go to camp. The boss said if I went, I would loose my job, and guess what. I lost my job. We had to get medicade, which is for people who have no insurance, and no money, to pay for our son to be born.
Thanks Virginia, and where was God, He was there in spite of us.
It was only God's pity on my stupidity that pulled us through. Many other times, sleeping in cars, running out of gas hundreds of miles from home, with no money, another time no money in the middle of Montana? Traveling in Korea, didn't even have $20.00 to buy a bus ticket, to get home. A Korean man at the bus counter handed me two tickets, and I thanked God. I had no one to call!
How is it, all that loyalty, for 31years, and we were written off, as if we had never set foot in the place!
God has something for that bunch, and when He has His way, those who rule now, will answer to Him.
How many more will they run off, before it all falls apart. Keep counting. Listen for the foot steps, maybe it is the foot steps of those real men and weman of God who are going to throw out the current board members, and replace them. Tear down the castles, and give the church back to the people who built it, and The One Who Shed His Blood for it!
Dave Armer said "How many more will they run off, before it all falls apart. Keep counting."
Word up, my brotha's and sista's. Reliable little birdies tell me that the pastor and his wife that were laboring in England have left the org. and ntcc had to close the doors to another one of their "scam outlets."
Can you say "they're running out of workers."
I say good for them, they got out while they're young.
HOP or House of Prayer splintered off of the ntcc back in 04 after they had a brother wear a wire and ask another minister if DVD's were okay. The HOP cult was founded by Ron Denis who was disgruntled and wanted his own piece of the pie. He was able to convince a number of ministers that the ntcc was "compromising" and thus the HOP church was born. The HOP church is now a more controlling cult than the ntcc is. Denis and his followers continued on in the doctrine of Davis, while Davis threw in the towel and allowed others to run his organization contrary to his own rules and policies.
The ntcc is dying because they are known hypocrites and false prophets. They have compromised their own cult doctrine and more and more people are seeing through their scam.
It's hard to advise somebody on how to get a loved one out of a cult. When I was in the cult, back in the 80's and 90's before they started living contrary to their own doctrine, there was nothing anyone could have done to convince me that I was in a cult. The power they have over an individual's life too strong to break. The best thing a person can do to help a loved one that's in a cult is to pray for them, love them and keep the line of communication open to them. If and when they do decide to leave, they will remember your concern for them and you will be someone they can turn to for healing. Stay informed by reading the testimonies of other cult survivors and share what you know with your brother but don't try to force it. As bad as it sounds, a wife could be a good thing for two reasons. It's possible that the wife could help encourage him to leave later on. If he stays single it could create a situation where he has to live in celibacy against his own will for a long period of time, and I can tell you from experience that it can be absolute torture to live like that.
It's a really messed up situation and I wish there were a better answer. If there is anyone out there that has had success in convincing a cult member to leave, it would be great to hear from such a person. The cult member has to be put in a place where they want to leave on their own, and where they see what we see. None of us thought we were in a cult but we thought we were in a special church and that we were a small vestige of obedient servants. You couldn't tell us otherwise either. We now labor to expose the ntcc for their hypocrisy so that perhaps folks that are looking for a reason to leave will see the common sense and reason that we try to share, and will leave.
The internet has been effective in shining the light on cults. People do searches on these churches and find out what they stand for before they attend a service. Many have testified that the blogs that we contribute to have helped them make the decision to leave. People get to the point where they've had enough abuse and they begin to look for a way out and they see others that they knew blogging and testifying of what they had to endure. What would be helpful is if someone started a blog against the HOP church, but it would need to be an X-member of HOP to give it credibility. Hope this helps a bit.
DnA
Bro. Armer said:
"The boss said if I went, I would loose my job, and guess what. I lost my job."
DnA said:
Those were truly the good old days. You had no choice but to have "faith" because the ntcc put you in positions where you had nothing else. No money, nobody to call, and we made it to conference and back home on faith and fumes. I used to think it was a sin not to attend conferences and I fought to go to every one of them, plus all the fellowship meetings. In those days folks used to beg, borrow and steal to get RWD's approval.
Looking back on this, it was crazy. We served a God that owned the cattle on a thousand hills but we couldn't afford to put gas in our oil puking junkers to get to a Conference. I think that if God wanted us to go to these functions He would have gladly provided the means to do so, but we were giving our money to a destructive cult, and how on earth is God going to bless you for that?
I think you are right, Bro. Armer. God had pity on us and made a way in spite of our own foolishness. According to the ntcc, quitting a job to attend a conference was a worthy cause. Finding a job that would accommodate the ntcc schedule was hard enough, and then having to quit it, because we thought it was a worthy sacrifice doesn't make a lot of sense. But we all did what we could to survive. Come to find out, the whole time we were being used. It's sickening to think that we were being exploited for our money. You have given 31 years of your finances, labor and love, but at some point they stopped caring and nobody in the ntcc cares about your sacrifice anymore. That's the way it is and that's the way they are. They overlook the good and they focus on every flaw they can find in a person. The ntcc is an organization, not a church, and they are concerned about money, not souls.
Anonymous said:
"Reliable little birdies tell me that the pastor and his wife that were laboring in England have left the org. and ntcc had to close the doors to another one of their "scam outlets."
DnA said:
Good for them and good for anyone who leaves. Sounds like a good cause for a celebration! The more this happens the more people will realize that they are in a cult. Good people are leaving and they see it happening all the time. They can't all be bitter. They can't all be filled with hate. Perhaps they as our forefathers once did, they are looking for religious and spiritual freedom. Freedom from the money grubbing Kooks in the ntcc.
"If I could only give at least $1000, his ministers would only have to collect another $16,500." (Talking about a Rolex watch)
Chief, That was lame, really lame. I mean, How DARE you go "low end" on a gift for RWD! A Rolex Presidential for RWD. It's gotta START at $50,000.00. From there you can decide whether you want Diamond movement, Gold casing, and the like. It has to weigh at least a half a kilo before it is worthy. You will also need a "Certificate of Authenticity from the manufacturer to complete the purchase. $17,000.00? $17,000.00??!! Don't insult RWD!!!
Mark said...
You will also need a "Certificate of Authenticity from the manufacturer to complete the purchase. $17,000.00? $17,000.00??!! Don't insult RWD!!!
Chief said...
Crying... I'm so sorry Bro. I need an alter. Do you think it's possible that there could be forgiveness for my poor judgment on this one? What am I to do? You are right Bro. I'll sell my house. I don't care if I have to live under the overpass with my family. RWD is going to get his Presidential Rolex if I have to file bankruptcy. Boy do I feel better now. Thanks Dude. Now I can have a clear conscience.
Chief
Mark G. Said:
"From there you can decide whether you want Diamond movement, Gold casing, and the like. It has to weigh at least a half a kilo before it is worthy. You will also need a "Certificate of Authenticity from the manufacturer to complete the purchase. "
DnA said:
I say we all chip in and buy Ole R-dub a Knock-off Rolex from Korea, you know the one with the crooked crown on it, that looses a few seconds every hour. We have Rolex watchy for you R-Dubby. Authentic for Twenty-Pieboo dolla. Adashi give you slicky boy price.
But first collect the 17 Grand $ from all of the willing suckers who just want to bless the Man of Gawd. Then we can split it between all of us Duped X-ers and get a return on all of our contributions.
DnA
That's what I'm talking about. Lets split the money. He gets the Korean watch and we get the money. The suckers are going to part with the money just like we did when we were in the NTCC so what difference does it make who gets it? We need it more than RWD.
Going back to the subject at hand I think that your take on women is not right.
I find it offensive the way you label women in or out of ntcc. You use the word messed up meaning: crazy!
You don't come on and say it that way but that is what you imply.
My experience with the women in ntcc is one of admiration to say the least.
That they are ready to endure and take it and go on is quite heroic on their part.
You were in servicemen's homes and you saw the women there, how they would work and do for the soldiers!
I can tell you that men need a woman to bring the best in them and I truly believe that.
I don't think that you would be the man that you are if you didn't have your wife.
I think your comments were made with too much testosterone on your part.
To say that women are messed up when they exit the org is a bit much.
Maybe the women you are talking about were already suffering of low self esteeem when they joined the church and couldn't overcome the inferiority complex they carried.
"For the most part all the women I've talked to, they are messed up?"
Really, jeff?
Anonymous said...
I find it offensive the way you label women in or out of ntcc. You use the word messed up meaning: crazy! You don't come on and say it that way but that is what you imply.
Chief said...
Yes that is exactly what I'm saying. I received calls from women who had to see psychologists and psychiatrists and even had to be admitted into a ward. Some have written it right here on this blog. You wouldn't believe the amount of calls I got from women who haven't written it on this blog, (as far as I know as some post anonymously). Yes, these women are mixed up in the head or crazy or whatever you want to call it. The conditions in the NTCC have absolutely adversely affected them.
They've lost touch with reality because they've been so effectively programmed by the NTCC cult. More than one women told me that her psychologist or psychiatrist told her to no longer have involvement with the NTCC because that is what was screwing her head up. They get to a place where they become paranoid about literally every move or decision they make. They are so used to being bossed around and or told what they can or can not do that they loose the natural ability to think "effectively" on their own.
I'm telling you this is true and not only that, the women who are still in the NTCC are wrong who "think" they are doing Gods will. How many times has RWD the crook said, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? MANY!!! I don't care how good the intentions are with the wives of serviceman's home pastors. They are being mislead.
What the NTCC says a woman should be is not what the Bible says a woman should be and I've proved it with scriptures right on this blog. Also notice that I specified that they were screwed up both "occupationally and psychologically". Nowhere does it say in the Bible that you should not work if you are a woman and in fact Proverbs Chapter 31 clearly and quite obviously teaches the opposite.
So what about all the wives of pastors in serviceman's homes that have left the NTCC over the years in large numbers? Now the primary jobs they qualify for are at department stores and such like occupational positions. Well when you are around 50 years old, that is screwed up. Working at the local Walmart stocking shelves for $7.50 an hour? So then they leave the NTCC and a good dose of the "real life" hits them right in the face and they feel worthless because they are not qualified for jack and they often get depressed. I'm talking about women such as those who were previously registered nurses or active duty military who can't find a decent job. So what is often the result? Messed up, screwed up or "crazy" as you put it. Someone who is depressed, overly unnecessarily emotional, and can't make sound decisions on her own falls in that category.
The fact is any of us in the NTCC were crazy because we didn't think straight. To one degree or another we all had been brainwashed into blindly following RWD's mandates and what I'm saying is that it has affected women worse than men and I explained that quite thoroughly in my original post.
Chief
myntcc.org/locator/aspx
Not Found
The requested URL /locator.aspx was not found on this server.
Apache/2.2.9 Server at myntcc.org Port 80
Damage Control
Anonymous said...
To say that women are messed up when they exit the org is a bit much.
Jeff said...
I didn't say they are messed up "when" they exit the org. I said they are doing poorly while they are with the org "and" since they've left the org which is the result of them being a part of the org. The degree they are messed up manifests itself more clearly once they leave the org.
That's ok. Stick with the org 20 or 30 years as a woman and come to your senses and leave the org and see how you feel when you are around 50 years old and realize that you no longer have any (or very little) chance of ever retiring.
Think about the prospect of either living from paycheck to paycheck or working at a Burger King till you are 80. Then you die at 80 working the fast food line because the NTCC jipped you out of any chance of real retirement because you never had a decent job and you didn't so much as ever put enough into social security. Yes I know there are exceptions but 20 or 30 years of wasted time is nothing to turn your nose up at. I don't care if you are in your mid to late 40s or 50s and you actually do get a good job. What is your chances of retiring at 62? You going to work till the day you die? Is that the plan? What if your husband leaves you or dies? Is the NTCC going to take care of you? If you are not considering this you are either crazy or will become real crazy if that ever does happen. Reality then kicks in and you start to get depressed and craziness often does in fact kick in and I know because I've spoken to NTCC women who've had to see a shrink.
This whole fake business about "I don't have to worry about a thing cause God is going to take care of it all is not even biblical". The Bible even says that if you don't work you shouldn't eat and if a woman isn't being the woman described in Proverbs 31, even if she is married, she just cut the chances of retirement in half when she goes for years without working because she is being mislead by the NTCC.
And if you think otherwise, (unless your husband is independently wealthy) you just verified my statements because you are crazy and thoroughly brainwashed by the NTCC leadership. You ain't in touch with reality from a worldly standpoint or a Biblical standpoint. Leave the NTCC as a woman around 50 years old and reality will kick in real quick. Let your husband die or leave you and reality will kick in real quick. Such happened to Sis Espinoza if I recall correctly. That's alright, keep plugging away as a normal NTCC wife (not Tanya Kekel) and you'll figure it out one day and hopefully for you that day don't come too late.
Chief
Hey Damage Control. You are probably right but it could just be down for updates, (which in their case is often damage control). It does however go down periodically.
Anonymous said...
"For the most part all the women I've talked to, they are messed up?"
Really, jeff?
Jeff said...
Really!!!! For the most part, they ARE all messed up. Starting a career in your 50s is messed up. If they are not messed up psychologically, they are definitely messed up occupationally. Once again, if your husband is wealthy this doesn't apply because obviously you don't need extra money but let him leave you and see how that works out for you.
In defense of Jeff,
I think you misunderstood some remarks Jeff made. Coming out of this cult there are mind games that one must begin to deal with. As far as calling the women crazy he certainly didn't mean whacked out! I believe he's referring to them, as having to deal with things mentally that can cause a person to become mentally exhausted. I was in for 32yrs and before that raised in a good church. My situation was stable, I was in the church and I knew and experienced the work of God. But to someone who has not experienced the church outside of NTCC, it would be more of a struggle to come to terms with many things after leaving. I.e., many are struggling in making decisions that affect their lives. In NTCC, you’re so use to being told what to do and not to do. No thought process is needed to make decisions; all decisions were made for us. If your decision was not in agreement with the leadership then you were put aside. My husband has problems making decisions now. He has to think about it; almost to the point of being indecisive. He's getting better, but it's a slow process. So how much more for NTCC's women who are in complete subjection to their husbands? Living with a spouse who loves to order and make demands; poof all of a sudden she has freedom to make her own decisions. It's not a thought process that one overcomes easily. It will take some years.
What about the women who do not have the ability to further their education? Some women don't have the means to get money to attend school. They don't have family around to help care for any children. Unless, there is a willing person to help out in this situation these poor women are still stuck in this cycle. After we left I immediately began checking into how I could better myself. Through my work place I was required to become a CNA after being hired. If I didn't have my license within 3 mos. then I would be laid off. I was given 120 days, to get enrolled into college. I was scared to death, but that was my incentive to get my license.
There are others that struggle with what's thrust upon them in the ministry. For you, you may not have experienced this. Some women are naturally born leaders and have the book smarts. Also, not many of the ladies bear their souls to others. So you can't actually say they're not struggling with something mentally. I worked hard and endeavored to be an example. I didn't have the confidence as some women do. Yet, I struggled mentally with all the mind games we endured. There are many who are struggling now. I am more confident now and that's because of my husband. Let’s just say we are at different levels in our lives.
Actually, we all may appear to be confident on the outside, but we may be suffering on the inside. So, I believe Jeff was not wrong in his observation of NTCC women present and post departure.
I don't know of any women who left ntcc who killed themselves or their family.
Jeff's comments were unfounded and sexist-pure and simple!
Hey Jeff, we're slogging through our vain orgless vacation. Oh for the glorious era of driving day and night cross country to be berated for our miserable failures! Now we're at my aunt's condo in Palm Beach, and she forced us to go to a restaurant today and eat steaks and baby back ribs. It's pure torture. I wonder if there are any NTCC churches nearby where I could get relief from all this stressless leisure? If I give enough, maybe I could run out of money on the trip and it would be just like back in the day! Well, the worst is yet to come; if this is torture, there is no telling how distressful Antigua and New Orleans will prove. Don't know if I'm going to make it.
"I don't know of any women who left ntcc who killed themselves or their family."
Youch! Touche.
Living Free said...
I think you misunderstood some remarks Jeff made. Coming out of this cult there are mind games that one must begin to deal with. As far as calling the women crazy he certainly didn't mean whacked out!
Chief said...
Sister I appreciate everything you wrote and I concur with just about everything you wrote but in all fairness and in an attempt to be an "honest broker" here, let me clarify. I actually did mean "whacked out". Now let me re-clarify in an attempt to alleviate any possible misunderstandings concerning my written statements. I wrote and I quote; "and quite frankly many of them get severely messed up in the head"
When I deliberately included the word "many" that is exactly what I meant; "many" who've become quote "whacked out", "crazy", "psychologically unstable" or however else someone elects to phrase it. Let me further clarify. Some of the women who have, called me as a result of this blog, have verifiable (according to the psychiatrists, or psychologists they see) mental issues which qualify them to be considered is I put it "crazy" or as you put it "Whacked out". They can not function effectively in society without seeing a shrink. One lady who was still in the NTCC had to be admitted into a psycho facility and let me tell you, I talked to her; she had some serious issues, i.e. issues that would qualify her to considered, "whacked out". She was hardly the only one. There were others. Others who needed to see and were seeing professionally trained psychologists and or psychiatrists and in each case, having talked to them myself, I could see why.
It wasn't their fault either. The NTCCs brainwashing had caused that mess. So Sister, I'm saying all this because I'm a straight up guy who's intention is to stand behind the true meaning of my statements. I do appreciate everything you wrote as do I appreciate what the previous person wrote, who's statements I refuted. The NTCC does more damage than most people can imagine and specifically it's been my judgment that the NTCC does far more damage to women than men. Of that I'm categorically certain.
Now another person posted that women haven't killed themselves or their family and I know who they were referring to. Very true. Do you know that as of about 2 years ago, I read that only one woman had ever been convicted of a mass murder? That is right, I read that for a fact. So what was the point? The point was, because so many "men" have been convicted of such violent crimes, the conclusion is that it is generally (with VERY few exceptions) not in a woman's nature to act that violently. However the same does not apply to men, as has been clearly chronicled by countless cases of men who've been convicted of mass murder. That has nothing to do with the number of women who's minds have become quote "whacked our" or "crazy". Crazy and whacked out being defined as, "not of sound mind; mentally deranged", and yes, there are women who are in, and or were in the NTCC who fall in that category and the proportional percentages are entirely too high.
Now this determination is made totally upon personal conversations "I've" had with entirely too many women who have called me as a result of this blog and my phone number being openly posted here. I'm not making this stuff up nor am I exaggerating. The NTCCs brainwashing clearly seems to have a more severe lasting affect on women than it does men and I can totally see why. Once again with a few exceptions, because for every rule, there is often an exception.
Chief
Anonymous said...
Jeff's comments were unfounded and sexist-pure and simple!
Jeff wrote...
Not hardly. I've been one the biggest advocates for womens rights. Hardly sexist.
Let's define sexist: "discrimination on the basis of sex, esp the oppression of women by men." Tell me what statement I've made that advocates the oppression of women by men? Go ahead, give it your best shot. Your statement was completely unfounded based upon on your lack of having a clear understanding of word definitions contained within the English language. I've been the exact opposite of "sexist". Examples and I quote:
1: For the most part, us guys maintain certain job skills even while we are with the NTCC which allows us to keep some degree of marketability. For you ladies it is not so. - Do I not regularly advocate a womans right to work? What part of that is sexist?
2: Some do get a job earning a decent wage, but have gotten too old to reasonably expect to save enough money to ever retire. Hey I'm just being real. The NTCC has stolen any chance of that ever happening. - Is advocating a woman having her "OWN" retirement sexist? NOT HARDLY.
3: They are deprived of any chance of obtaining any professional credentials. - Is advocating women maintaining quote "professional credentials" sexist? NOT EVEN Anonymous English as a second language.
4: Just as with many ladies who are still in the NTCC, things didn't work out between them and their husbands however the husbands made out fine but to the contrary, the women were left high and dry. - Is advocating that women always, if need be have their own plan to provide for themselves Sexist? NOT!!!
Obviously you don't know squat about sexism and as I've clearly proven with irrefutable evidence, your assertions about me being a sexist are flat out wrong. I've been a huge advocate for womans rights right here on this blog so you've barked up the wrong tree this time. Take that junk somewhere else and you might want to start with RWD the male chauvinist pig because he is a perfect example of someone who clearly fits the text book definition of a "sexist". I don't fall in that category thank you. I'm might not be the smartest but I'm no dummy so the next time you refer to me in such a manner you better have your ducks in a row. Sexist my foot. You obviously didn't even know the meaning of the word "sexist". Telling women to take their rights back is the total opposite of sexist. You however fit the definition of someone who is unlearned because if you weren't, you wouldn't have called me "sexist". Stating that women in the NTCC are more oppressed than men is the opposite of sexist. Do you understand now or do I need to give another block of instruction on word definitions?
For anyone who thought I was just too hard that was totally my intention. For anyone who's read this blog for any length of time, you know I've always stuck up for women so that qualifies me to be called anything but a sexist.
Chief
Chief, I too don't believe you meant your comment to be anything less than the honest truth. You where spot on if you ask me. I would not even bother to try to explain your comments. Everything you said was true, maybe for some women more than others but nonetheless, the truth is the truth. Don't even waste your time trying to explain your comments for what I believe to be, a mans point of view, a man cannot relate in any way to what a woman has to go through while in the NTCC or after they leave.
I was luck to leave before 20 years of my adulthood had passed me by... I think that's the only reason I, as a woman, am doing just fine. Well, that, and a VERY supportive husband who is helping me get the education I need for the field I am most passionate about :)
JM
Chief, someone comes to mind when you speak of the way women are treated, Sister Espinoza, a lovely person I might add, working at Walmart to support herself after her husband passed away. When I saw her working there that struck a cord with me. The question I asked myself is why is a 50+ widow of a pastor working at Walmart. I felt she deserves better than that. Why is she able to work, she certainly could not work when her husband was alive. I mean no disrespect towards Mrs Espinoza. But I always felt sorry for her situation. I know that is what she had to do. She had to get out there and find a job. The NTCC was not going to support her. I am sure they did not help her in any way after her husband passed away. I bet she did not receive any means of financial support when he died suddenly like that. Her situation spoke to my heart, I always felt she deserved better.
Vic wrote...
Now we're at my aunt's condo in Palm Beach, and she forced us to go to a restaurant today and eat steaks and baby back ribs. It's pure torture. I wonder if there are any NTCC churches nearby where I could get relief from all this stressless leisure?
Chief wrote...
Steaks and baby back ribs? Don't you know you could take the money spent on those delicacies, and give it as part of a collection so RWD can get his Rolex? You could bless the man of GAWD. Dude, you do need to get to an NTCC church and repent. That money could be spent on new song books so a church like the one at Ft Hood can keep the entire $279,000 in escrow. Dude, you need to get saved. I don't know how you can deal with such self imposed torture? I'm going to tell everyone you're a backslider and they are not to have any dealings with you until you move back to Graham, get prayed through and get right with GAWD. I don't know how you could subject yourself to such earthly pleasures. I'm disappointed in you Vic. Now let me get them ribs because spiritually, you can't handle them but I can.
Chief
Anonymous said:
"Jeff's comments were unfounded and sexist-pure and simple!"
Don said:
If you are going to call Chief a sexist, you might as well call him a racist. If you know Chief, you know he is not a racist. If you knew Chief you would also know that he is not a sexist. If you read this blog you would know that he has been an advocate for women.
I will say that many people that have left the ntcc suffer lasting psychological damage to include myself and even Chief. When you are a part of a controlling cult for over a decade and every decision regarding your life, your finances, your relationships, your time, the way you dress, the way you look and even how you blow your nose, is governed by a bunch of crooks that are using you to prosper financially while they sit around like a knot on a dog's butt, soaking up all the good things in life that you paid for with your tithe dollars, you might end up with a little bit of emotional baggage. I personally don't think that calling a person crazy is helpful but it's probably true, and I'm just being honest and truthful, myself. Sometimes being blunt is a good thing. I'm not as straight forward as Chief in that sense, but I have enough of my own flaws to make up for it. We all are different and the truth sometimes hurts.
I talk to Chief quite a bit and I can tell that he loves his family and he honors his wife. This blog and the things he has said regarding women are anything but sexist. You want to find a definition of sexist you know where to look. Take a look at the ntcc and you will find a lot of men that will not let you speak unless spoken to. They will belittle you in front of others and they will emotionally and even physically abuse you. The one thing that I never could understand about pastors in the ntcc was how they treated women. I often thought if I was fortunate enough to ever get a wife that I would treat her like Gold. I watched many ministers order their wives around and preach down their throats in church services to keep them "in line". That is what I call sexist.
Don
Anonymous wrote...
I would not even bother to try to explain your comments.
Chief said...
I understand what you are saying and the reality is, you are right. Sometimes I think clarification is necessary and someone really rubbed me the wrong way when they called me a sexist. I've spent thousands and thousands of hours typing on this blog and a considerable portion of that time has been dedicated to womens rights. My assertions do not go against the Bible either.
This person could have called me a jerk, arrogant, hot headed, and just about anything else but I'm not taking sexist lying down. Who ever wrote it can go jump of a short pier or as MDR so eloquently put it, "go flush their head down a toilet".
Nevertheless, thanks for your support. It was pretty cool.
Chief
Chief said "Now let me get them ribs because spiritually, you can't handle them but I can."
Jeff, your just a sexist,rib eater.
Ha, ha. A Sexist? Man, my wife can eat all my ribs and in fact we are working on her resume as we speak so that she can get a better job than she already has. The plan is for her to get a government job on a military installation as a federal government civilian employee. She has a good teaching job right now and I want her to have a better one and so does she. If something were to happen to me, I want her to be totally able to provide for herself which she was very good at before she got involved with the NTCC. Get some "sexist" out of that one. I hope she makes more money than I do. She was before she got into the NTCC.
I can use all the help I can get; Proverbs 31 style.
Chief
Chief said:
"Dude, you need to get saved."
"You need to take a splash in the river. You go down a dry sinner and come up a wet one!"
MDR said, "Jeff, your just a sexist,rib eater."
Does that mean God is a Sexist Rib Splitter since He took a rib from Adam to make Eve?
There are no sexists in my household. I put my foot down. In fact when my wife just called me on the phone in the bedroom, I answered in the Kitchen, to find out that she needed the primary blogging device (Lap top) in the bedroom. It's a good thing we got free minutes or I would have strongly protested. I brought her the lap top chop, chop. If I was a sexist I would have said, "Are you crazy woman"? Calling me from one room in the same house under the same roof. I would have demanded that she ask permission to speak first, and she wouldn't be allowed to have a cell phone, and I would be the only one allowed to eat ribs.
sexism:attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
an implication was made that the female gender espouses a weaker mindset. either men lying about seeking out help or are afraid to admit it to another man
Chief, you are welcome. I love this blog, and I am so glad it is here.
Anonymous said...
an implication was made that the female gender espouses a weaker mindset.
Chief said...
Not by me. The only thing I implied was that women get abused more than men in the NTCC and the effects are more severe and lasting. I've heard it said that women shouldn't even participate in mens conversations in the NTCC. Well that is a bunch of garbage for a few reasons. First off, what type of conversation is a considered a mans conversation? Secondly, I can't think of anything that a man talks about that a woman shouldn't talk about. There are things that my wife knows more about than I and things that I know more about than she but nothing that I can think of that she should not even be able to discuss because of her gender.
Once again, I ain't sexist. Yeah women are different than men. Look between my legs and look between a woman's and you "should" see a significant difference. Generally men are built different than women so yeah there are differences. That has nothing to do with being a sexist. My wife is not as physically strong as I am. That doesn't make me a sexist. There are woman who are but she ain't one of them. She is not as fast at running as I am. There are women who are but she ain't one of them and that doesn't make me a sexist. I'm faster than probably 99% of all woman and that is just the way it is but stating that does not make me a sexist. Some dudes are slow but I ain't one of them. I was faster than most guys and faster than most women.
There are physical attributes and emotional attributes that generally differentiate men from women but understanding that does not make me or anyone else a sexist.
Stating that a woman shouldn't vote would make someone a sexist and I don't feel that way. Saying that a man can work but a woman can't when there is no biblical grounds to back it up would be sexist and I don't feel that way. Stating that a woman can't participate in a "mans" conversation is sexist and I also don't feel that way. Saying that a woman shouldn't be a leader in the military is sexist and I definitely don't feel that way because I used to work for a Female Major who is now a General and she was and I'm sure still is as good as any leader that I've ever had the privilege to follow. My wife had more rank than I did. By a pretty good margin I might add. Sexist?
I could go on and on. Like I said, you picked the wrong one when you called me a sexist. I fit the description of anything but so do me a favor, let it die.
Chief
Anonymous said...
Chief, you are welcome. I love this blog, and I am so glad it is here.
Chief said...
Thanks, that makes the thousands of hours I've put into this blog all worth it and I mean that. I'm sure that makes a few others who've stuck around here for years feel the same way. I'm really trying to break these women out of the trap that the NTCC has them in. The biggest one is the NTCC teaching that women can't work on a job. Proverbs 31 teaches the exact opposite. Saying a woman can't work is setting a trap that can in many cases mess a woman up for life. You can assume that a man is always going to provide for you if you want, but for many women, that assumption was a tremendous mistake. Not only that, tell me one thing wrong with having extra money in the household? Are the men worrying about their wife going out and cheating on them while she is at work? Don't tell your wife she can't get a job just because you are insecure NTCC man. If you can't use extra money, you have a whole lot more than I do.
If a husband and wife decide that the wife is not going to work thats fine, but don't tell her she can't work and the husband better have his finances well put together if the wife not working is the plan. And if you are not working women, and your husband doesn't have at the least $300,000 in life insurance, with you being named the beneficiary, or at least that much money in the bank with your name on the account, you are set up for failure. Don't be some broke dude trying to tell your wife she can't get a job. Thats a bunch of trash and you don't have any grounds trying to tell her she can't get a job anyway. Does that sound sexist? Good grief. I can't tell you how many times I've written this same stuff. Anyway it's time to go to bed. Me and my wife both have to get up for work in the morning cause we like having money and neither one of us mind working for it.
Chief
Now go eat some ribs!
I can't, Vic ate them all.
jeff, I really appreciate the blog and don't necessarily agree with all that you write but labeling women as crazy was what the beef was about.
I don't know how your wife puts up with you spending so much time writing this blog and then having to receive calls from all kinds of people that maybe making things up just to call you.
I don't know how you do it, to put your phone number for all to see!
But I guess maybe you are crazy enough to do it, because I sure wouldn't!
We all in one way or another have done crazy things in the name of religion.
Like bro. armer said we were just doing it because we had a sincere heart, but now we know that we were sincerely wrong!
I for sure don't think you are sexist it is just that I didn't appreciate the label you gave us women.
okay jeff we didn't mean to call you sexist. can we come back in the sandbox now?
Let them eat ribs!
Anonymous said...
I for sure don't think you are sexist it is just that I didn't appreciate the label you gave us women.
Jeff said...
I understand. Once again, I didn't give all women or "us women" as you put it that label. If a woman has been admitted into a psycho institution or has to take a verity of medications for psychological issues then she fits the description of "crazy". They are not just calling me to talk. Some of these women have some serious issues and I'm not making it up and neither were they.
And yes I do spend a lot of time on this blog but I'm also a very fast typist. Took business typing in high school years ago and I never lost it. My wife is not worried about who calls me to talk about the NTCC and or their problems as a result of their involvement with the NTCC.
There are some guys who also became crazy as a result of being in the NTCC but I'll tell you the effect on women overall has been worse. Oh, I can think a quite a few crazy guys right off the top of my head. Wow, the NTCC makes a lot of people crazy and they recruit folks who are already crazy. I'm not kidding. I've seen it over and over.
Either way. It wasn't directed toward you unless you are crazy and if so, join the club.
Chief
Chief, as a former member, I had a full time job, married, and they cashed my tithe check every time. Not once did they pull my husband or myself aside and say brother, your wife should not work. Not once, I am sure they where sorry to see my tithe check dissapear. Of course, if I had been through bible college or my husband had been through bible college, we know that would not have been the case. Double standards. That is what I call it. What about all those single women who are either in bible college or have been through bible college, why are they able to work. Aren't they "prostituting" themselves as well. I heard this over the pulpit. How rediculous is that.
A Former Member said...
Chief, as a former member, I had a full time job, married, and they cashed my tithe check every time.
Chief said...
You are absolutely right. Double standards. The problem was, I was at the wrong end of that double standard. I do understand that some NTCC ministers don't support the "women not working stuff" and I can respect them standing on what they believe and not preaching that stuff. That whole thing should be personal choice and it should have been the whole time but RWD don't believe in women's rights. That ain't the Bible, that's RWD. According to Proverbs 31 a virtuous woman will work and what the Bible referenced was a job that did take her outside the home.
My wife didn't work for years and the truth is, for part of that time I'm glad she didn't for one reason and one reason only. I had a new born. I'm glad she was able to stay home and take care of our Son "our way". Well once he got in school there was no reason for her not to work and she has been working for years now. Having said that we were in the NTCC almost two years before my wife gave birth to our Son and there would have been nothing wrong with her bringing in extra money during that time and that didn't happen.
We followed a bunch of unqualified teachers that we trusted, and it turned out that they were wrong about women not being lawfully allowed to work according to the Bible. The Bible does not say that and the one scripture they use, they got wrong. For anyone who doubts what I'm saying, look it up for yourself. I've broke it down enough times here that I don't feel like going through that again. False doctrine and double standards on the NTCCs part pretty much sums up the whole issue. There is no need to struggle if you don't have to.
RWD's way of accumulating money is to get rich and get gifts from church folks and our way of getting money is working for it ourselves. There is nothing wrong with having a business but taking advantage of peoples good nature is wrong. Don't bring no guns, knives, Rolexs and Cadillacs to my house if it's going to be at the expense of a bunch of poor struggling church folks. That is using and taking advantage of people and I don't operate like that.
Chief
"Chief, as a former member, I had a full time job, married, and they cashed my tithe check every time."
isn't it partaking of one's sin to cash her check?
I don't know what to say after reading all your testimonies. I have not been attending the Church long and I will probably leave at some point. Yes, I get what you say about the whole woman thing. BUT I don't go along with everything they say. I am going to school am getting more training.
Yes, I will have some debt BUT I will have something(an education and training) that is my own. And it is my business (my debt). I put my faith in God not man. And God gave me a brain. What I have learned cannot be taken from me and empowers me as a woman. It enables me to take care of myself. I do believe in submissiveness but not being STUPID.
Maybe it doesn't bother me because all that extra stupid stuff about women goes in one ear and out the other....I live my life like I want. I have friends and date outside of Church. I DO NOT nor will I ever cut my ties with my parents/family, friends or potential mates.
I just cannot and will not let a Church control every aspect of my life because then it takes away who I am. If I cannot be free to be me then I am not happy. Right now I am fine because I don't conform to a lot of rules but rest assured if it gets tricky then I am out!
Anonymous lady wrote...
Right now I am fine because I don't conform to a lot of rules but rest assured if it gets tricky then I am out!
Chief said...
Oh, it will get tricky or they will get so liberal that they will just completely leave you alone as long as you keep the all mighty tithe checks rolling into their coffers. They are heading fast in that direction. They will get to where they won't care what you do as long as you pay tithe and give in the offering. They'll never stop preaching about that. They'll forsake every other doctrine they have before they forsake that one. From the New Testament, they can't prove that one either.
The NTCC has thrown away the vast majority of the rest of the law contained in the Old Testament so why didn't they get rid of tithe? For the same reason they never will and RWD made it plain in conference and I heard him with my own two ears plainly.
RWD said... "The only things that matter are money and numbers". The NTCC leadership teaches more on the subject of tithes and offerings than any other subject found in the Bible, bottom line plain and simple. To put it plainly, the NTCC leadership is "ALL" about MONEY and you can take that to your grave. Well I can use money also and since I left the NTCC I have more money than I ever had while I was in the NTCC and it is just that simple; so explain that one?
Chief
The NTCC leadership changes their tune every chance they get but the one area at which they've never budged is you better give them your money every single month. Let a bunch of people not pay tithe and they are getting ready to teach a bible study on the subject and half the scriptures they use to include the ones contained in their doctrinal statement, like 1 Cor 16:2 don't even apply. They take scriptures completely out of context.
RWD cares about two things and two things only; YOUR MONEY and YOUR BLIND LOYALTY. You can take that to your grave also. You can take it to the bank. Question that crook one good time and you'll be dirt. He is a control FREAK, freaky deak. And that is where all the rules for women came from. Cause he is a control freak, freak, freaky deak. I know what I'm talking about. I known others like him. He is just worse than most.
Chief
I'd say get away from NTCC even if you aren't allowing them to micromanage your life--you are still supporting and lending credibility to abusers and scoundrels. It's not just about you. Don't be an enabler of their wickedness, and don't feed their bloated egos by your continued participation.
The only thing I don't understand about the whole R.Denis debacle is how JD Bailey managed to talk his way out from under the chopping block after backing out of following R. Denis. He then also managed to make a mass apology to his congregation and they believed him. You forgive the man that helped someone steal the money that you tithed to the "church" and follow him down the road of life with more offerings. Wish I could work that kind of magic.
Here's a gem straight from the ntcc archives. Remember this ntcc joke?
Rev 8:1 "There was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour".
That's when the women all shut up.
or how about this?
Adam:
God why did you make women so stupid?
God:
So she would marry you.
RWD:
You fat women need to separate and sit in different pews so they don't cave in during service.
or:
It's no wonder your husbands are enticed into adultery, when they have to look at your figure every day.....
Who is the sexist?
In a restaurant, I was sitting at a table with RWD and another minister, and he pretended to pluck a hair out of his pubic region and he waved it under my nose. "This is what women will do to entice you". The purpose of his visit was to remove the Pastor and his wife because she was unfaithful.
Are you beginning to see a pattern here?
I understand how that a person can read a couple comments and misunderstand where Chief was coming from, but if you were in the ntcc for any amount of time, "COME ON"! Perhaps you should direct your remarks to the true sexist(s) in your past. Sorry if it sounds like I'm beating a dead horse here but give honor to whom honor is due, and give dishonor to whom dishonor is due. Do a google search on Chief's blog: "realstoriesoflifeinthentcc women" or look through his archives of blog posts and find the ones related to women. If you do this you might get a little bit of clarity on where he stands on these issues.
The reason this bothers me so much is that most of the people that come on here and attack, are going after the wrong folks. There is way too much sympathy for the ntcc. People are afraid of the abusers and they come after the only people that are truly on their side. Why don't you call up Kekel or R-dub and tell them how you feel about sexism? I'm sure they would give you a whole different perspective on sexism.
DnA
I also remember RW joking that some guy's wife had gained so much weight since marriage that the husband wasn't even married to two thirds of her.
Can't recall a single fat man joke, though.
Anonymous said...
Wish I could work that kind of magic.
Chief said...
NTCC ministers do it every day.
Chief
You know jeff, I think all that is changing about the people being destitute.
As far as I'm concerned alot of the people in graham have their little business going to make ends meet.
I remember hearing people talking about trying to do this and that, like selling stuff on the internet or other things like that.
The thing that caught my attention was that mck would sometmes mentioned from the pulpit the people that were doing this.
One time he mentioned a couple that got into the cheesecake business.
Looking back, I noticed that they would treat people differently.
They tended to gravitate to the people that had a knack to get a buck somehow!
Vic said...
Can't recall a single fat man joke, though.
Chief said...
Cause it's like I always say. RWD is a sexist, male chauvinist. I never heard him tell a fat joke about a man either. That is not to say he hasn't but I've heard him tell countless jokes about fat women. The NTCC system is the main reason they are overweight women in the NTCC. Make a woman sit around the house too much and that is what you get. Don't buy enough quality food and that is what you get. Eat late too often after church and that is what you get. Drink too much kool aid and that is what you get. The NTCC system sucks and that is what you get.
Chief
Anonymous said...
They tended to gravitate to the people that had a knack to get a buck somehow!
Chief said...
Of course they did. That is what they understand and that is the main thing they appreciate. Especially if you are paying tithe. Sooner or later, about the only thing they'll care about is if someone pays tithe. It's pretty much been that way all along other than their unquenchable desire to control people and enforce a bunch of nonsense rules that Kinson and Kekel have done their best to do away with.
Chief
people are allowed to do businesses, side jobs, etc now because things have come to light how people that have given their life to kekels and davis' teachings dont have anything as they age.
it used to be preached against and frowned upon to have a business or go to school. now these things are allowed.
they can take their hypocrisy and double standards.
Could Davis be a misogynist?
Sounds to me that he feels women are the root of all problems for the NTCC. Maybe he only married as he probably thought it was the Biblical thing to do. I feel sorry for Verna Davis, I bet her life is very hard.
No wonder Kekel and his wife moved back in the compound next door, they need to, moving back must have been very hard for Mike I know he liked to be AWAY from everything. Poor Mike.
This comment is for the anonymous woman who said, I don't know what to say about this testimony. You obviously are not in bible college and aren't married. Once either one of those things happen all will change for you. If you attend the NTCC for a while you will hear this stuff preached over the pulpit, you will need to conform to what other women look like, act like etc. As long as you pay tithe they will have no problem with you. But, if you don't conform to the style of dress, you will be shunned. After a while, you will dress frumpy, lose the makeup, and lose yourself in the process. If you don't they will never accept you as a true "christian woman". BUT, they will always cash your tithe check regardless of what you look like. Been there, done that...
Anonymous said...
I feel sorry for Verna Davis, I bet her life is very hard.
Chief said...
I doubt it's that hard. In fact I think it is probably the total opposite. Davis may be a jerk but he has a soft spot for his women, i.e. Tanya and Verna. They got it good.
Chief
Anonymous said...
Poor Mike.
Chief said...
I'm not trying to just refute everything you write but regardless of how RWD is, Mike doesn't have it bad either. He is married to the crook's daughter. The fact is, Mike is a crook also. Mike may be one of the most disingenuous and manipulative people there is. Mike Kekel is so full of it. Have you ever read the stuff he writes on his blog? He's constantly trying to give people the flim-flam. Whenever he writes something it's like he thinks that everyone is stupid because they'd have to be to buy off on the stuff he says.
Unfortunately many people in the NTCC are easily conned and Mike knows that, so for every person who dismisses what he writes as nonsense, there are 50 more who say, "What you wrote pastor Kekel was such a blessing". Phooey.
The NTCC made Mike rich so I don't think he has too big of a problem living next to his father in law.
Chief
Don and Ange said,
"The reason this bothers me so much is that most of the people that come on here and attack, are going after the wrong folks. There is way too much sympathy for the ntcc."
Problem DNA is no one is allowed to critique.You folks give the same soggy brown nosing response.
"You sound like Grant"
"Where were you when RWD said blah blah blah"
"Why don't you call up Kekel"
Sounds cultish to me.
TL
Chief, I don't feel the least bit sorry for Kekel, I know he is privvy to everything, you missed my point when I said poor Mike, I was being sarcastic. He is just like his father in law and then some, just a chip off the old block. He is just as big a hypocrite as Davis. I was making an observation when I said poor Mike had to move back next to his father in law, I bet his wife put him up to doing that. The bigger better house would not hurt either. In fact, I hear the new house he is now in is even better than the one he moved from. Apparently it is even more palatial than the last one. All bought and paid for with our hard earned tithe money as well.
Anonymous said...
you missed my point when I said poor Mike, I was being sarcastic.
Chief said...
My mistake. I thought maybe that was where you were coming from but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the clarification. Once again, my bad.
Chief
Anonymous said...
Apparently it is even more palatial than the last one. All bought and paid for with our hard earned tithe money as well.
Chief said...
You better believe that. Those guys are some serious scam artists. So Mike and Tanya did move out of their old house? Do you know that for sure. A while back they took pictures of a cookout where people were outside playing basketball and other games. Do you know if that was their old house or their new one?
Chief
Anin said "I feel sorry for Verna Davis, I bet her life is very hard."
If you really believe that, you are poor, misguided soul. Verna has it real good. They don't called her and Tanya the "Shopping Queens" for nothing
Anonymous said...
If you really believe that, you are poor, misguided soul.
Chief said...
This may have been another case of sarcasm. Either way, they don't call them the shopping queens for nothing. That is so sick. A couple of women spending up everyone else's money. All the poor people in the NTCC have given their money so it can get spent up by RWD's daughter and wife. That is really sick when you think about it. Given as unto the Lord? Phooey. The NTCC taught you to believe that you are giving your money as unto the Lord.
You can give for the right reason or give for the wrong reasons but either way, you are still a sucker when you give your money to the NTCC.
Chief
Anonymous said...
Problem DNA is no one is allowed to critique. You folks give the same soggy brown nosing response.
Chief said...
And I'm getting ready to give the same soggy brown nosing response again. You can critique me or Don and Ange all you want, but if you expect us to keep our responses to ourselves like the good little boys and girls in the NTCC you are sadly mistaken. Critique away. Have at it. Fire all the rounds you want in our direction but you best believe that we will fire back.
We didn't have that luxury in the NTCC or we'd be told to find the nearest door and maybe even grabbed a hold of by someone in the church or a bunch of someones in the church. Happened to a brother in conference. Someone called me a sexist and I proved I wasn't. If they'd stuck to their guns I would have stuck to mine. There has been some pretty good battles on this blog but the problem is, people who want to battle with me are often out numbered. That shouldn't come as any surprise; I run the blog. Go figure.
The NTCC pushed a lot of people around for a long time but it's not happening anymore at least around here. Folks who are sympathetic to the NTCC aren't going to have much success around here either. That's just the nature of the blog.
No big deal and I have no problem with what you've written either. Adds a little life to the whole deal. This blog can get pretty dead sometimes. I kind of like it when it gets livened up.
Chief
MDR makes it more lively when he tells someone to flush their head down the toilet. That was funny. A little in your face but funny.
TL said:
"Problem DNA is no one is allowed to critique.You folks give the same soggy brown nosing response.
"You sound like Grant"
"Where were you when RWD said blah blah blah"
"Why don't you call up Kekel"
DnA said:
The subject that we were discussing was sexism, which was a "soggy brown nosing topic" brought up by some one who didn't like what chief said about women having a lot of ntcc related issues. I'm not sure if you are the one that left the original comment about sexism, or if you just didn't like our response, TL.
Did it offend you that I said you should call up Kekel or RWD and get their perspective on sexism? Maybe your anger is misplaced. We just relayed what Davis has said and done. I'm an eye witness to those things I wrote, and if they offend you don't shoot the messenger. Last time I checked, everyone is allowed to critique, and that's what this blog is all about. I accept your critique of us and hope that it made you feel better.
The ntcc has messed people up beyond repair. We all have issues and I don't look at you, TL as any less of a person as anyone else. I think that recovering from a cult takes a lot of time and people have to realize that the ntcc is a fear driven cult. Once you realize that and you measure them by their own standards you see the hypocrisy and phoniness plain as day. They used to say, "I'm not judging anyone, I'm just a fruit inspector". Well, guess what, their fruit needs to be inspected too.
DnA
Anonymous said:
"MDR makes it more lively when he tells someone to flush their head down the toilet. That was funny. A little in your face but funny."
DnA said:
That was one of the funniest things I ever seen on this blog.
DnA said...
Well, guess what, their fruit needs to be inspected too.
Chief said...
No it doesn't. Their fruit is rotten to the core. The inspectors (with any sense) wouldn't even look at it. LOL. It needs to be tossed in the dumpster and buried forever at the bottom of the trash dump.
Yeah I actually like that old NTCC saying. I'd completely forgot about it. When they call me bitter and hater I'll say, "No I'm not; I'm just a fruit inspector and their whole crop is ROTTEN and no good for anything".
Good night.
Chief
"Maybe your anger is misplaced."
Indeed.None of us is beyond reproof. Is this the attitude that many feel when an issue is raised on the blog? Responses are deflected or deleted and that is incredibility frustrating. Agredd? What was it called in the military then everyone griped to the IG
TL
However MDR comment was funny! So was the response.
TL
Chief, they moved in that new home, right next to Davis's house well over a year ago. Apparently it is really beautiful and bigger than the one he moved from. Even though now it is just the two of them, as Grant left for college. Actually, I think it is closer to 2 years ago that they moved. Maybe even longer than that. They moved in to the new home even before the Butlers left the org.
On the previous post, I am talking about the Kekels.
Chief, what is Mike Keckels blog again, or should I say how do I find it?
TL said:
"Is this the attitude that many feel when an issue is raised on the blog? Responses are deflected or deleted and that is incredibility frustrating. Agreed?"
DnA said:
I'm sure we all have an attitude and that is because we all have endured a lot of unnecessary wasteful years at the hands of some pretty deranged people. Our attitude is a byproduct of being pushed, prodded and threatened with hell to live by a bunch of made up church rules that apply only to the ones that are doing all the work, while the benefactors are building their wicked empire and laughing all the way to the bank. They care about souls? Really? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Yes, I have an attitude. You ntcc'rs are a bunch of blind lost people. The money surrounds you and it's your money. It is being spent right before your eyes by people who require you to live a life of sacrifice while they spend your money. They are hypocrites, rolling around in your money. You follow all the bible school rules, living like a Quaker, walking on egg-shells while R-dub and Kekel are dripping with your money. They keep you so busy and blind that you can't see the obvious right in front of your face.
As for the deleting of responses, I would say that very few things have ever been deleted from this blog. This blog serves a purpose and the moderator has the right to delete stuff that is counter productive to that purpose. The ntcc hates this blog and if someone comes on here and starts discrediting people or generating obvious counter productive nonsense that contradicts the direction or intended purpose of this blog, I've seen Chief delete a comment or two every once in a while. I don't blame him, he's a lot more tolerant than Kekel is. Try speaking your mind on his blog which can be found at:
michaelckekel.blogspot.com/
DnA
"Moonies”, the disciples of Sun Myung Moon believe that Moon himself is the divine being, or Messiah. His status as the second coming of Christ allows him to live in royal fashion, supported by his many followers all over the world. It is believed that the cult lures in young people and separates them from their loved ones by making them feel a part of a new and more loving family. Moon expects to be treated as God, because he believes he is God, or so he has led his many followers to believe.
A member must say that he is a member of the Unification Church and that he is the follower of Sun Myung Moon. If he doesn't have the courage to say it, he is not worthy of me.
"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion" (SOURCE: L. Ron Hubbard, Reader's Digest reprint, May 1980, page 1)
The E-meter is never wrong. It sees all; it knows all. It tells everything.
-- L. Ron Hubbard{1}
The E-meter or electroencephaloneuromentimograph is about ten inches by six inches by two inches{2} and its appearance was described by one reporter as a "cross between a car speedometer and a practical joker's electric shock machine.
The International Churches of Christ, previously known as the Boston Movement, or Boston Church of Christ, has its roots in the Crossroads Movement of the 1960s and 70s, a rapidly growing, but controversial movement based in Gainesville, Florida. Kip McKean was converted in 1972 and later trained for ministry at Crossroads. After being fired from a traditional Church of Christ in the late 70s, McKean moved to Lexington, Massachusetts and started the Boston Church of Christ.
The discipling and shepherding practices involved manipulative forms of religious indoctrination that were at best highly questionable and at worst were outright examples of religious abuse. There were many complaints of excessive control in the lives of members and other abuses of authority that became too widespread and too public to ignore.
The plan McKean formulated is based upon one simple and draconian principle: the demand for absolute submission without question to someone higher ranked in the church for their own good.
A member who dares to questions these leaders or their dictates are branded as weak spiritually and threatened with eternal damnation. Leaders would also make heavy use of scare tactics to ensure obedience, giving intrusive orders on how members should act that have nothing to do with spiritual matters.
Of even greater concern are the complaints of ex-members: that they have been spiritually abused, that they've been caught up in a legalistic works mentality that has robbed them of their freedom in Christ, and that the church has sapped them of all of their time and money. Eyewitness accounts of many ex-members have provided ample testimony to the personal chaos, disruption, and devastation that their willing participation with the group has wrought upon them.
You may not have been told that you will never be allowed to attend a church service at a non-ICC church again since "all other churches are preaching lies."
You may not have been told about the extreme control the church exercises over dating relationships. Not only are members only allowed to date other members, but couples cannot "go steady" without permission of leadership, and no one can get married without permission of the church.
You may not have been told that if the church asks you to relocate to start up another church, you will be expected to go. If your leaders ask you to do something, it is considered God’s will.
You are also not told what you will face if you leave the church -- the fear of leaving the church, since it is the same thing as leaving God, and the shame and rejection you will be subject to should you leave, since all your ICC social circle will consider you a non-Christian "Satan," one to be shunned by church members, including your friends in the church.
For all its avowedly Christ-centered claims, the ICC's established methodology of recruitment and retention of prospective members - who are usually idealistic and unquestioning college students in search of purpose and fulfillment - is essentially no different from any other cultic group.
Anonymous asked...
Chief, what is Mike Keckels blog again, or should I say how do I find it?
Chief said...
Google his name. It's easy to find. He's deleted a lot of content from his blog that once existed. Either that or he made it private.
Chief
Don and Ange wrote...
This blog serves a purpose and the moderator has the right to delete stuff that is counter productive to that purpose.
Chief said...
Very, very well put. Nothing else needs to be said.
Chief
Anonymous quoted...
is essentially no different from any other cultic group.
Chief said...
And no different than the NTCC. The NTCC and the church of christ are very similar. The church of christ thrives on controlling people. I know, I was exposed to the COC in Korea. Many of these churches are very similar. I'll tell everybody with no reservations; be careful of the church you attend. Be very slow to emotionally and mentally commit to any church. Listen very carefully to what they say and very carefully watch what they do. The NTCC leadership is NOT of God. The NTCC leadership is about one thing; their own bellies and their own lusts. Hence Tanya and Verna the shopping queens.
No other group can take you for a con game ride like a church can. Many churches can be classified as cults.
Chief
Going back to the subject at hand, women.
I was wondering Jeff if you can bring a little more info about what a woman that exits the org can do it and find help.
What about if the woman and the preacher husband have alot of debt incurred while in the "ministry"?
Once she exits, she is not at all "free", she has to deal with the financial issues.
If she leaves this is abandonment and she loses any claims to her husbands retirement.
Plus she has to deal with the debt they both had when married.
There's alot of factors that a woman has to look at before she makes a move.
Either way, she probably is better off working for herself and her needs.
I remember meeting alot of couples that were laboring and waiting, waiting for that "special blessing"
One day God was going to give them the desires of their heart, just like the pastor and the others:
One day, if they keep on being faithful.
One day, if they keep on giving.
One day, if they keep on laboring.
One day, one day,..................
and now they are old and still saying, and waiting:
One day!
One day can come real quickly if "YOU" take control of your finances and stop expecting God to do the work for you. God often blesses but he still expects people to work and do their part and he doesn't expect you to be stupid by giving all your money away to some greedy church like the NTCC.
The first thing to do if the husband and the wife are in debt is to pay it off. The quickest way to accomplish this is for both the husband and wife to have a JOB. Don't think the $400 a month part time Sears gig isn't good because it is. That is $400 that you otherwise didn't have. If you have credit card debt, pay those cards off completely. When my wife first started working she was a substitute teacher not making a whole lot but what she did make helped a lot.
Get rid of any unnecessary bills like an extra cell phone or a home phone if you have a cell phone. Both husband and wife don't need cell phones if money is tight. Take a close look at your automobile insurance and see if there are coverages that you don't need. Don't create unnecessarily bills like cable if money is already too tight. Don't eat out. First get your debt under control and then start to enjoy other things in life. It's just that simple. It's easy to knock down debt if you go about it right. Don't get a car you can't afford but don't get a piece of junk that is going to break down. You can get brand new cars for a little over $200 a month that will last practically forever.
I have a car that I bought brand new and I always kept it up and it has well over 300,000 miles on it. I didn't buy someone else's junk. I bought a brand new car, took care of it, paid it off years and years ago and kept it. Now I have three cars, two are paid off and the third is real close. I could pay it off right now if I wanted to but the interest rate is so low that there is no point. You can refi a car at 1.9% these days.
There are plenty of ways to get ahead but staying in the NTCC ain't one of them. Lastly, and some won't like what I'm getting ready to say but stop giving your money to some greedy church where the likes of Verna and Tanya are going to spend it up on their next shopping spree. God ain't going to curse you because you want to get your debt paid off. I've got more money than I ever had since I left the NTCC.
My "one day" has already come and I left the NTCC and didn't give anymore money to them. Right now as we speak I have plenty of money. I could always find a use for more but I've got plenty. A real nice house with land, plenty of good running cars, and plenty of nice toys. You know, the kind that guys like. My wife has plenty of stuff also and so does my son and daughter. We ain't hurting for nothing. Everything is way more stable since we left the NTCC. If you work and give your money away to the church, don't be surprised that you stay broke. It ain't God's fault that you gave all your money away.
Chief
Dear Anonymous,
When we read your question to Jeff about what can a woman do, we thought you might be in that situation. So the rest of our answer is based from that perspective. If that assumption is wrong, please bare with us as we try to add our two cents to address your good question:
First of all, our hearts go out to you! We want you to know that you are not alone. Others are going through this same struggle to keep their families in tact. And others have come through the struggle successfully with their families in tact; and they continue to worship and serve God happily, free of the ntcc bondage of man-made rules. They shared that it was not easy; but it was worth the wait.
They have also shared the thing that helped them most was prayer - keep your prayer life strong. Keep lifting up yourself in prayer and your loved ones, asking God to open their eyes to the truth about ntcc and to confirm that God will be with you even if you decide to serve him outside the ntcc. That is so important! God said He would never leave us, nor forsake us. His salvation is a free gift that we do not earn. God gives us salvation, not a man. So a man can not take it away from us!
Jeff gave some really sound financial advice. As far as the refinancing, your situation might vary since you already have some debt. But it's worth looking into.
You also might want to pray about getting a job yourself. If your husband sticks with you, your job can help pay down the debt. If ntcc drives in a wedge like they have done to others, separating families contrary to God's commandments, the job could help you get established. It's at least something to pray about. And know this, there will be people who will be praying for you!
We really can't tell you what to do. But we hope that God will make a way for you and your family to be together and to serve Him the way He intends, in spirit and in truth.
I want to bring up something that pertains to women and leaving the church, I was told by a very reliable source that if her husband who happens to have a preachers license or the wife of a preacher leaves the organization, the remaining person is told to get a divorce and move on to another person within the organization. This is absolutely amazing to me, so the NTCC tries to break up your marriage if one of you decide to leave the NTCC, and of course as we know, just because you leave the NTCC does not mean you leave God. I was amazed by this, but it does not surprise me at all. Also, Don and Ange, your comment was so heartfelt and it truly was a compassionate and caring answer you gave. I got something out of it too.
Anonymous said...
so the NTCC tries to break up your marriage if one of you decide to leave the NTCC
Chief said...
You better believe it. That is exactly what they do. Cult tactics, 101.
Chief
Don and Ange said...
You also might want to pray about getting a job yourself.
Chief said...
DnA, I understand your poing and I understand the importance of prayer in a Christian family and everyone has to do what they have to do. Where a job is concerned, I'm going to get one when I need money to pay off debt and when I need money to take care of me and my family. The way I see it you can't afford not to. Not only that, lets be real here. It's not like the Lord is going to come down with a thunderous voice and say, "BROTHER OR SISTER SO AND SO, YOU NEED TO GET A JOB BECAUSE YOU ARE BROKE AND WAY TOO FAR IN DEBT, THUS SAITH THE LORD".
Hey I'm just being real. That ain't happening. If you need money, you need a job and you take what you can get till you can get something better. Period, point blank end of story. That is the reason so many NTCCers and exNTCCers are so messed up. They can't make decisions and their indecisiveness keeps them in bondage. I can promise you the Lord ain't going to make every decision for you. Sometimes you just have to think logically and make the best choice and if you fail, get up and try again.
I didn't always have a "good" job but I worked and made money and kept looking for a better opportunity. Doing the exact opposite is where the NTCC messes you up. All your decisions hinge around their mandates and their schedule and that sorry NTCC system severely limits your opportunities. Then you pray, pray, pray and wait on an answer from the Lord and often the answer never comes and then what do you do too often? NOTHING but get deeper in debt and or slow down your financial progress.
Not me and my family. By the good Lords grace, I plan on going forward, not backward and that has begun by me and my wife both having a job and both contributing to our financial needs because we can't afford to do otherwise if we want to keep moving forward as fast as we are. We wasted too much time in the NTCC, I can't afford to waste anymore by being wishy washy and indecisive. I often believe the Lord helps me, (even though I can't prove it with tangible evidence) but whether he does or he doesn't, we need to do our part and working with your own hands and keeping a job is Bible and it makes sense and Proverbs 31 says a virtuous woman is going to do the same thing.
So guess what, and I'm not being disrespectful to the Lord here. I'm not waiting on an answer from the Lord. I'm going to work because it makes sense, and if you want to be spiritual, the Bible also says you should work, and that is all the answer I need.
Not only that lets be truthful. How many of you have heard the Lord talk to you in an "apparent audible voice" and tell you to work or what job to take? I'll tell you how many, NONE! And if I'm wrong, the Lord knows but I seriously doubt it.
Chief
Oh and one more thing. I'll guarantee there is one thing I'm not going to do. I'm not going to some stinkin, control monger NTCC minister to ask permission to take a job. If I got to work on Saturday, I got to work on Saturday. Same goes with Sunday.
The Bible says, 1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
So there you have it. You can go soul winning every Saturday till you feet turn black and blue, you can give in the offering and go to church every Sunday, (and listen to this and listen good) you can even pay your tithe but if you don't provide for you own family none of that matters because you are worse than an infidel. If you die, is your family taken care of? If not and you pay tithe but you haven't bought life insurance for your family, you are worse than an infidel. Are you giving your money to the NTCC so Tanya and Verna can spend it up but your family is struggling? If so you are worse than an infidel and you aren't even "SAVED".
Worse than an infidel means you ain't "SAVED" because you are quote, "worse than an unbeliever". Are you going soul winning on Saturday when you should be working and your family is going without? You are worse than an infidel and you aren't even "SAVED". Do you have any unpaid debt that you are late on paying and you are soul winning on Saturday anyway? You ain't even close to being "SAVED". Did you give up a higher paying job to take a lower paying job because the higher paying job interferes with the NTCC's schedule but as a result, your family is not taken care of? You're worse than an infidel. You ain't "SAVED".
Just like old RDUB the Dupester always said. "Hey don't get mad at me, I didn't write the Bible, GAWD did, get mad at him?" And then wag your head like a dog.
You all better wake up and realize that providing for you family is more important than any of that NTCC stuff. That is, if you don't want to be "WORSE THAN AN INFIDEL". Waggy, waggy, waggy.
Chief
Buy the way, providing for your family ain't begging from other NTCCers when it's two weeks till conference and you don't even have enough money to get there or eat while you are there. Someone forgot to tell sister Ashmore that.
On sister Ashmore's blog there was a story about some NTCC family who was flat out broke and with conference only two weeks away, they didn't have the money to get there. Well they made it but it was at someone else's expense. Well apparently sister Ashmore thought that was great how supposedly "God made a way". Well begging and poor mouthing ain't Gods way and those people were worse than infidels because they didn't provide for their own family. Sister Ashmore and the NTCC were enablers of that whole mess and rightly partakers with those people who were worse than infidels.
I'll bet those people payed their tithe and went soul winning when they should have been working and keeping their money to take care of their family.
Well they were worse than infidels so they went to conference begging and they weren't even saved. So much for that kind of salvation. See people don't even have the most basic understanding of Christianity. Christianity is about loving your neighbor. How in the world can you say you love your neighbor when you don't even provide for your own family? You can pay all the tithe you want, go soul winning every Saturday but if you don't show love toward your neighbor by even providing for "YOUR OWN" family, you don't know the first thing about Christianity and I don't know how in the world you can consider yourself saved?
1 Cor 13.... You can do all this junk but if you don't have charity you ain't nothing. The NTCC has it all backwards. Their religion is vain.
Chief
Wow, good stuff Jeff. I was trying to dodge the white spit that was coming out of my computer screen. As most often is the case you are right. You covered a lot of ground and if people in the ntcc that are allowing thier so called leadership to keep them in poverty, I hope this is a wake up call. After all, our God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and if we are struggling in poverty and deep in debt, than apparently we are listening to the wrong voice. The reason I say this is because I was there. I made an E-6 salary and should have had something to show for it but I allowed the ntcc to set my financial priorities. I prayed like anyone else, but, I was under the false impression that the pastors of ntcc were the oracles in which God used to answer my prayers.
If you are in a situation where you are in debt and making low wages because some blow hard preacher has told you not to work a job that takes you away from church functions, something is wrong. Is it God? Is it you? or is it the blow hard preacher? If you believe God, but you are not receiving the blessings, that eliminates God from the equation. That leaves you and the blow hard preacher. The tendency is to blame yourself or to believe that the blow hard preacher knows more than you do. But all you can do is your best. If you are praying and God is doing his part than I would take a look at your situation a little closer. When we say pray about something, we don't mean wait for an audible answer to come from heaven, just ask for a little help, or some understanding and then do what you know needs to be done. Use the process of elimination to make the most important decisions that are going to effect the rest of your life. Don't let a man have that much authority over your life that you end up making decisions that adversely effect your family.
I will say this. The ntcc didn't save you. They didn't give you salvation and they can't take it away. The problem is that the ntcc is a cult and they have taken away from and added to the word of God. They have created a river of money that goes straight from your wallet to Graham, Washington. The money that you need to get out of debt and to take care of your families is in Graham. It goes towards buying a new Cadillac every year for RWD. It goes towards Grants Catholic Law School education. It is being spent on shopping sprees by Verna and Tanya. Go up to Graham and take a look around and you will see your money all over the place. Go knock on Kekel's door and ask him if you can take a look around his house so you can see where all of your tithe dollars are being spent.
When you are done figuring out where all your money has gone, ask yourself or God the question, "Would Jesus do this"? Then open your bible and find all the scriptures that provide examples of Jesus telling his disciples to pay him tithe so he could live in luxury while they have nothing. Find all the New Testament scriptures that support the apostles asking for money from the poorest people in their congregations so that their wives could go out to shopping malls and waste your hard earned money on frivolous shopping sprees. Chief is right. You don't have to wait on a thundering voice from heaven to tell you not to give any more of your money to these crooks, you will not find any scriptures to support this kind of Lavish living and wasteful use of your money, because there are none. Don't let Rwd or some other blow hard preacher wag their heads at you, take a stand, be a man or a woman and do the right thing. Don't continue to allow a bunch of hypocrites to think for you while you get further and further in debt.
DnA
I will say that there are people that are in really bad situations in the ntcc and sometimes the solution seems easy to us on the outside, when it really is not. A woman in the ntcc can really be trapped. If she doesn't have the means to work, transportation to get back and forth and her husband is drunk on the ntcc Koolaid, it limits the options a woman has. This is common in the ntcc and it goes straight back to one of the themes of this blog post that women in the ntcc have it really bad and suffer worse than a lot of men do.
The ntcc is set up to keep you in their cult or break you if you leave. It's a prison that does not allow you the freedom to live your life productively. They will tell you if you leave the ntcc, you are leaving God. They will cause you to question your own salvation and they will absolutely create division in your marriage if it benefits them financially. This is when you have hold on to God, trust in your instincts and do the best thing for yourself. I don't advocate leaving your spouse but sometimes the only option you have is to try to make the best of things until your spouse understands what you already know. I would exhaust every means at my disposal to open his or her eyes and even then it could be an uphill battle. At the very least, I would stop attending cult meetings and put the ball in his/her court. If your spouse doesn't love you enough to respect your decision and he can't live with you than that is on him/her, not you. Sometimes, you have to cut your losses and do what's best for you.
That's right. You do everything you can do to make things work but once you've done everything you can do, you have to stand and make a stand. You have to do what's right for you, above all else. This might sound selfish, but when it's all said and done, you're life is going to be the sum total of your decisions. RWD said that himself. Your soul is your own, and nobody else can keep it but you. Staying in the ntcc will oppress you more and more. Things will get worse before they ever get better. If you allow others to influence your decisions, you have to live with the results. You end up living a life that you have no control over. Other people are making all the decisions that govern your life. God don't want you to be a slave, living in a prison that you have no control over for the rest of your life.
All I'm saying is don't ditch God in the process of doing what's right. Continue to trust him and let him bring you out of Egypt. Pray and make responsible decisions and do the best that you know to do. The biggest mistake that I made and it was very costly, was believing that the ntcc and its pastors had the answers for all things concerning my salvation. It was a form of idol worship. I trusted in them instead of looking to God. God couldn't do anything in my life because I was trapped and in prison. I lost hope and it took many years to get that hope back. We hope and pray for everyone that is trapped in the ntcc, that you would find freedom, and God makes a way for you to have peace, because that's his will. If you don't have peace, than find your way back to God. If you can't find God than figure out what stands between you and God and get rid of it. I really believe that it's not intended to be as difficult as we make it. Love God and your neighbor. Everything else will fall into place as you learn to trust God by doing the best you can and realizing that there is such a thing as grace and mercy.
DnA
'so the NTCC tries to break up your marriage if one of you decide to leave the NTCC"
understatement! there is systematic method prescribed in the ntcc to get rid of your spouse.
refuse to have sex
when the offending spouse enters the room-leave
do the bare minimium
incessantly tell them to go away
Regarding the previous post, the NTCC tells a person to do these things in order to make your spouse leave. Is this the kind of advice you will get from a Pastor, WOW.
that kind of teaching is clearly against the Bible which teaches one to defraud not and that our body isn't our own.
I wonder what kind of baloney the NTCC Double Standard Hypocrites tell people that they still follow them.
Oh well, Jesus said let the blind lead the blind and they both shall fall into the ditch.
A whole lot of what the NTCC teaches is against the Bible. That is the way of the NTCC. They are a cult. They use the Bible when it benefits them and they avoid the Bible when it hurts their cause. They don't even practice good decency. I've got to where I can't find too many redeemable qualities in the NTCC leadership. The more I understand the NTCC leadership the more disgusted I get.
So be it.
Chief
I find the whole idea of breaking up a marriage just because the spouse has a change of heart concerning where they want to go to church absolutely despicable. This has to be one of the last vomit's of Satan, and emphatically NOT OF GOD!!!!!!!!
Happy Super Sunday! While ntcc'rs everywhere are going to be attending a Sunday night church service, We will be sitting in the living room of our house watching the Superbowl. You heard me right. While we are watching a bunch of sinners toss around a pigskin, the ntcc'rs will be taking up collections all around the world, a percentage of which will go to the Grant Kekel former prep school football player's catholic college fund. Football is an American past time and is wholesome and fun entertainment. Attending an ntcc church service can be a divisive event. I'm sure all of us "sinners", "sitting in front of the devil vision" will be one of the many topics discussed in church service.
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord and we will also be watching the Game. We have the Giants by a very small Margin in a close game that could possibly go into overtime. This is a guess, not a prophesy. And if the Giants lose, I will be eating some serious crow because of the way I dogged MDR. As promised we waited until today to say anything else about the game. Today I will do no trash talking because in reality this game can go either way, and which ever way it goes, it will be fun for us. We are Broncos fans and our team is like us: Spectators. I like the Patriots a lot and the Giants a lot. If the Patriots win it'll be fine with me but I'm hoping the Giants win.
The ntcc'rs will be mocking all of the football enthusiasts in the world today. They usually rail against the Superbowl every year, and this year will be no different. They will use the Superbowl to tout how important going to church is. "I'd rather be in Church, than the Superbowl". "Jesus is not at the Superbowl, He's here with us tonight" as they snarl at you, preaching against everything from football, to cats, to soul winning, to wearing jeans, and growing a mustache, not wearing wigs when the hair God gave you is not long enough to meet their standards. Same ole stuff.
I'll admit it. Football is not spiritual and it's not going to save anyone, or so we've heard. We will be eating wings and drinking diet soda. We might even get excited if our team scores a touchdown. If someone has a beer on Super bowl Sunday, We will not condemn them. We will not say if it takes 10 to get drunk than you are 1/10th drunk. I missed a lot of good Super Bowls and a lot of great football games over the years because of the ntcc. But not any more. I'll never let a man tell me that watching the Super bowl is a sin while he steals money from people. I won't even feel the slightest bit of guilt for watching the big game today. Go Giants! Go Patriots!
DnA
I'm with you on that Mark. I can't stand it. There is nothing Godly about it and in fact it's totally the opposite. Nowhere in the Bible is that garbage advocated. If your spouse is cheating on you I got that, but you don't leave your spouse and threat them like dirt just because they can't stand your church.
We know the NTCCs trick on that one. RWD stands up and teaches that it's ok to divorce if your spouse abandons you. Then you decide you don't want to be with your spouse any longer so you treat them like complete trash and they finally get so sick of it they leave you and you call that abandonment. Often that is how people in the NTCC justify their divorces.
The NTCC is a plague. The NTCC is a sickness. RWD and Verna are enablers of all this divorce stuff. They are both deranged people and so is Olson.
Chief
Hello, to all the football fans out dare. It's off to church and then prepare to watch the "Big Game". To all of you who are on this blog that don't like football...Oh well!
I'm going out on a limb here, but I say the Pats by two, yah I said it, Two (2) scores. Nonetheless, It's going to be a good one.
Take care everyone, and to all of you who don't like football, go find a duck pond and jump in. Just kidding.
mdr
Too many years in the NTCC hath made you mad MDR. LOL. They'll be lucky to win by two points say no less two touchdowns.
Cha Chief
We're about to see my brutha.
FYI Grant kekel is a huge Pats fan. Do you think He'll be watching it on a big screen at home or listening to it on the radio like RWD? Hmmm!
where you go to church at mdr ?
I seriously doubt he'll be listening to the game on the radio. That dude ain't thinking about all those NTCC rules and neither were his parents. That is why he is attending a Catholic college. If I were a betting man, I'd bet he's getting ready to watch the game. Either way, the Catholic college part is bad enough. The day Grant went off to his secular Catholic college, the Kekel's and Davis' might just as well have slapped in the face every parent who ever attended the NTCC.
The worst part it is, the people who are paying for Grants college are the NTCC parents who strongly apposed their own children's college attendance. And they did so because RWD insisted with much bloviating from behind the pulpit. It's a sick circle. I really can't stand RWD and the Kekel's are the biggest fakers on the planet. Grants very existence is a complete slap in the face to any parent who's ever raised children in the NTCC.
Anyway good luck with the Superbowl. I certainly hope the Giants win.
Chief
Anonymous asked...
where you go to church at mdr?
Chief said...
I'd be reluctant to answer that question. Why do you ask Anonymous? Are you interesting in attending MDR's church? Please understand why I ask. Often, questions like that come from NTCCers who just want to find something wrong with in this case, MDR's choice in churches. You may however be sincere with your question but we have no way of knowing because we don't even know your identity? I could probably put you in touch with MDR if you are interested in visiting his church.
Chief
Chief, I have a question for you or any of the others. If a person who has a ministers license has to take a job and can't be in every service, and bible study etc. What would he do, ask for permission if it was ok? Is that what is expected of these individuals? Is this part of their agreement when they finish bible college and receive their ministers license? Another question, are they made aware that they are responsible for starting their own church with their own finances? Or are they told this once they try to go out and start their own church? A person I know has told me that all bible school students with the NTCC are fully aware of what is expected of them before they sign up. It is my belief that this person is missinformed. Since neither of us went to bible college we could both be wrong.
Anonymous said...
What would he do, ask for permission if it was ok?
MDR would have to answer that question. Not only that, things could have changed in that regard. In fact I'm sure there have been changes. Some of these ministers are doing their own thing now and that I know for sure. There have been some changes in many of the of the standards.
Chief
What a game. Both teams played their hearts out. Brady was every bit as good as Manning. I was on the edge of my seat till the last play of the game. Congrats Jeff. MDR that was as close as it gets and it really came down to couple of dropped passes on that last drive that were thrown perfectly by Brady. If Bradshaw would have turned his butt the other direction and fallen down with his butt facing the other end zone, it would have been a one point victory. It was a fun Super Bowl. Please pray for me to get to the nearest ntcc church so I can be cleansed from watching this game. I've been out of the groove for quite a while but when I broke ranks, watching the Super Bowl instead of attending church at the ntcc was a sin. Then again just about anything that you did instead of going to an ntcc church was classified as sin. Maybe God changed His mind and it's okay now. Anyway, hope everyone enjoyed the show and also hope this off season goes by quickly because I am not a Basketball or Baseball fan.
DnA
Any one that appreciates professional football should count it a priviledge to have seen two great teams with great coaches and Quarterbacks play at that level. I think the combined quarterback performances far surpassed any two QB's performances in SB history. That was entertaining and fun.
Yes it was. It was a very good game.
Hello to all. Wow! What a game. I couldn't believe those dropped passes by Hernandez and Welker. The Pats also demonstrated poor decision making when the Giants had the ball on the goal line. There was 1:43 on the clock. They should have let the Giants score and give the ball back to Brady with at least 1:25 on the clock. They made that tackle and then let them score on the next play, taking precious seconds off the clock. I really didn't want to think that Gronk's injury would make that much of a difference, but it proved to be the Achilles heel for the Pats. And Ocho needs to get his act together and become a factor on that offence or they should release him.
Well, there are only two seasons in a year: Football season and waiting for football season. The new season has begun. I hope everybody has a great week, I know I will cause here come the Pats baby. Enjoy your lives cause that's what God intended you to do.
mdr
Comment to your take on getting out of debt. That is fine IF you are a couple. I am single and acquiring debt while in school which is fine by me. Once I am done, I can get out of debt pretty quickly (using some of your suggestions)! :)
I got tired of feeling that I couldn't be goal-oriented to get a husband. I put off my schooling for awhile because I knew debt was a turn-off for a man that would marry me. 1. He may be a minister and/or 2. I wouldn't work so I would be bringing debt into an one income family.
BUT THEN I decided to forget all that. I really really really want to have my own career. I want my own thing. That is why I dated outside of NTCC. I don't feel it is fair to be judged on my being a career woman. I always said it wasn't my fault that I have a career and nice things.
Some of these women are so hungry to get married and the men have their pick of the litter...
I kept my friends outside of NTCC because a lot of the women were superficial, either wanted to talk about coupons, recipes, their husband (which they were so proud of!), how to get a husband, when are you going to get a husband?
Also, I found that because men outside NTCC weren't opposed to a woman working, I get approached more by these men. My finances aren't a subject brought up on the first or second date!!! Also, the men I date ADMIRE me for being "smart". I remember the first time a guy I dated complimented me on being smart and etc, I got teary eyed!
sorry for the mini-rant... I will post more later if I haven't said too much already.
MDR said:
"Well, there are only two seasons in a year: Football season and waiting for football season."
DnA:
Well said. Branch dropped a 20 yarder too that would have helped. Brady did his part, and the Giants fumbled three times and were lucky enough to recover all 3. If one of those fumbles bounces in the Pats direction, it might of been a different game. It seemed like the Giants got all the necessary breaks, and they also played just good enough to stay ahead and win it in the end. What a game.
DnA
DnA said "...What a game." It definitely was one the great ones that's for sure.
Take my friend.
You know chief, since this post has gotten alot of questions, maybe you can start another one with the title: Ask the Chief.
For some reason there are alot of young bucks starting in the ministry and I don't think they really know what they are getting into when they decide to serve God the ntcc style!
Sometimes people are ignorant and that is what gets alot of people into trouble.
Yeah is was a very good game. Of course (being a Giants fan) I enjoyed the end result. No doubt those dropped passes hurt the Pats. The one to Welker was behind him but catchable nevertheless. Had the Giants running-back not fell into the end-zone, they could have run the clock down so far the Pats would have had to bring a punt return all the way back for a touchdown.
The Giants didn't use the clock wisely on that play so both teams did make mistakes. The Giants certainly weren't flawless but it made for a great suspenseful game. I wouldn't want a blow out either way. Games like that are boring. There is always next year and the year after that. The Giants may never win another Superbowl as that kind of accomplishment is not guaranteed for any team. There are 32 teams and only one can win. 32:1 odds ain't very good. Historically, the Pats and Giants have both won more Superbowls than most so it's good to be a fan of either.
Chief
Anonymous suggested...
You know chief, since this post has gotten alot of questions, maybe you can start another one with the title: Ask the Chief.
Chief said...
That doesn't sound bad other than I don't consider myself an authority on these matters. The reason being, I was never a "minister" with the NTCC and I've never been to Graham. I did spend 10 years in the NTCC and as a result, I learned a lot about how the NTCC leadership operates. I've also learned a lot having moderated this blog for almost for almost 3 years.
Yes I do know "A LOT" about the NTCC but once again, I was never a minister and as a result, there are certain aspects of the NTCC that I only know about because I obtained information second hand. Someone like MDR or Vic knows a "WHOLE LOT MORE" about the NTCCs inner workings than I ever could. If either of those two guys started this kind of blog and vowed to keep it going, I would probably discontinue my diligence with this one. Until which time that someone else takes up the reigns, I plan to stick with this blog to the end.
The only exceptions would be if this blog started to hurt my employment potential or put my family at evident risk. I've often been concerned about RWD or Kekel or another NTCC leader deciding that I needed to be "taken out" for the sake of their organization. Those guys are crooks you know and even though I'd hope they wouldn't attempt such a thing, unfortunately I wouldn't put it past them.
The love of money is the root of all evil and those guys love money so much, they clearly possess a considerable amount of evil.
I appreciate your suggestion and I may start the thread you requested. The only reason I'm not sure is because I have a good understanding of what gets peoples attention around here and frankly there is not a lot of participation at all. If I do start the thread, it probably won't be title "Ask the Chief". I think that brings attention to "me" and that is not my goal as I don't consider myself to much of anyone.
Chief
Going back to the women, I was wondering about a few things that I noticed when women exit the ntcc.
For some, the change is real radical and they go out and change everything about themselves.
You know, the way they dressed and hair and all that.
But then I've seen other women that for some reason don't want to change or maybe in their heart they still think it is wrong to do those things and they opt to still look like they did when they were in the ntcc.
It was something I was pondering in my mind.
I know that it doesn't really matter one way or another but like somebody said, the women are the ones who have to transformed themselves into something that maybe they are not.
Maybe is guilt, I don't know.
I agree with somebody that said that it was the women who had it bad because they are the ones who are at the bottom of the bottom of the tottem pole.
there may not be alot of participation. but i think you have tons of readers. you'd know more than i as you get the traffic reports.
(from a different anon)
As a former NTCC'r I can tell you how I feel. While in the NTCC I was told how I should look, act, how long my hair should be and I followed what I was told. I now realize, that it is more than just how you look that makes you a Christian woman. It is your heart and the way in which you act. I was in the NTCC for over 10 years, I judged people for how they dressed, and if they wore makeup or not. I did this because that is what the NTCC teaches. "Be in the world but not of the world". "Come out from among them and be ye separate". Since leaving I now see how judgmental I was, yes I am a free moral agent but at the same time, I see why I felt as I did. Wearing pants is not a sin. Wearing makeup in moderation is not a sin. I don't show my parts that don't need to be seen. Men can in no way understand what it is like to make a total transformation from a "normal looking" woman to a woman that looks and dresses like my Grandmother. These are man made rules. If you don't look good, you won't feel good about yourself either. I ask you this, is there something wrong with feeling good about yourself. The NTCC is by far the most judgmental church I have ever been in, I see it now. Because I was one of them. No more, as well the NTCC women where some of the most unfriendly women I have ever encountered. I got better treatment from "the worldly women" although they certainly where standoffish too, because I was so different looking. I think if you made a statement to your husband that you did not want to continue looking like a NTCC woman even after leaving they probably would say no, stay as you are. But you know what, let them walk in your shoes, what changes have they made since leaving, other than maybe growing some facial hair. They probably changed very little, men made very few changes when they started in the NTCC. Why can't you start to make yourself look good too, you don't do it for everyone else, you do it for yourself. I could write a book on this subject...
Anon said...
There may not be alot of participation. but i think you have tons of readers. you'd know more than i as you get the traffic reports.
Chief said...
Yes, based on the reports there are many readers, but there must be participation when you start a thread with the intent that people ask questions.
Chief
Anonymous asked...
I ask you this, is there something wrong with feeling good about yourself?
Chief said...
I don't recall who it is but someone married to one of the NTCC leaders doesn't think so. It may be Johnson's or Olson's wife, I don't remember who but some wife of a senior NTCC leader has what they call "rosy or slapped cheek syndrome". Guess what they use on their cheeks to make them look better? MAKEUP!!! Apparently they claim that's ok because it's a medical condition, they aren't bound by the NTCC rule stating that a woman can't wear makeup.
Well that is a bunch of hogwash. They don't like how rosy their cheeks look so they wear makeup to make themselves look more attractive. That is no different than a women wearing makeup to look better for any other reason. So once again, another NTCC double standard. So if you ask this woman if it's alright to wear makeup in order to feel better about herself or in this case feel better about her looks, she'll say it's ok.
I'm not interested in following a bunch NTCC "man made rules" that too many of their leaders don't even follow and probably never have. Here is the key Sister. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks. I could care less what the NTCC leadership thinks about me and I mean that with all my heart.
You wear what you feel comfortable wearing and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. What matters is what you think and if wearing makeup makes you feel more attractive, or if it makes you feel good about yourself then have at it. Why does a guy comb his hair? Whey does a woman curl her hair? Why does someone press their clothes? Here is a good one: Why does a man highly shine his shoes? It ain't because it makes the leather last longer because a spit shine does the opposite; it ruins the leather. All that stuff is done to look good and that is no different than you wearing makeup. Why do these NTCC women run around with broaches on their clothing? That's jewelry ain't it? You better believe it is and anyone in the NTCC who says otherwise is full of garbage.
So these NTCC women run around with broaches and big fat gaudy cluster rings on their finger and the men wear unnecessary gaudy cufflinks and you mean to tell me that's not a sin but wearing a necklace is? You don't need those broaches, or cluster rings that are supposed to be your second engagement ring or those big fat heavy cuff links anymore than someone else needs a necklace.
Once again, it's a big fat, glaring double standard that was imposed by old fuddy-duddy RWD the double standard dude. I could care less what any of these sorry double standard NTCCers think. They have no room to judge anyone else. Oh, and RWD needs a $17,500 roles watch? It ain't like 17k needs to be spent so he can read the time. From purely a vanity standpoint, a Presidential Rolex is far worse than any necklace, bracelet, ear ring or any other jewelry that costs a fraction of that price.
The NTCC is full of trash and their double standard rules suck and God knows.
Chief
The syndrome that you're talking about is called rosecea and it affects women and it is very awful looking.
Looks like you've burned your skin.
I'm with you on women looking good.
I remember seeing women in their early 30's and older with graying hair, and it really looked awful!
I remember one leader's wife came from the P.I. she had graying hair but then I saw her again in a conference a few years later and she didnt have any gray hair!
She was black and her hair didn't show any gray, so either she plucked those gray hairs or she dyed it!
I don't see why it would be a sin on trying to coloring your hair.
Like God is gonna be waiting for you as you are entering heaven, and saying: "Stop, you can't enter because you dyed your hair!"
Please, give me a break!
As a woman I can say, I wear makeup, not a lot but I wear it to feel good about me and only me. I am not naturally pretty, so in order to feel better I wear some makeup. I have even seen pictures of celebrities without make up and wow, what a difference it makes, a little foundation, powder and something to bring color to your face. What a difference it makes. No man can understand that, my husband was not pleased at first, but he doesn't live in my skin, I do, and as a husband you need to be compassionate to what your wife is feeling. Men are way too quick to tell you what you should and should not do, because they have been taught all that stuff by the ntcc, no pants, try wearing a skirt or dress with pantyhose in cold weather and see how you feel. COLD, and uncomfortable, I want to be comfortable, what on earth is wrong with that. I know this is your husband and he is the head but come on, that is called CONTROL. Control from the NTCC, that we supposedly left, and control from our husbands. Some women just don't want to wear makeup or feel just as comfortable in dresses and skirts, I am not one of them, don't judge me or say well she must not be saved because she does those things. That is the judgmental NTCC that I left. Please ladies, think about it.
See I'm on a role now and once again, all agitated with the NTCC shenanigans. Why do you think the NTCC leadership places so much emphasis on "women's Bible study". Indoctrination and brainwashing, pure and simple.
My wife sat through a woman's bible study that was focused around what a woman should or shouldn't wear. This took place in Atlanta where Mayers was the pastor. He taught that it is lawful for a woman to wear broaches because broaches aren't quote, "REAL JEWELRY". He said broaches are "COSTUME JEWELRY". I kid you not!!!!! He said that wearing broaches was authorized and lawful because not only were broaches not "REAL JEWELRY" but they were worn on the clothing and not the skin. Once again, I KID YOU NOT!!!!!!
So here is my question? If a woman has on a turtle neck and she is wearing a costume necklace (which is not real jewelry) and it's doesn't touch her skin, (which it won't because of her turtle neck) should that also be authorized? According to Mayers standard you better believe it should be authorized.
Additionally, where in the Bible is there a distinction made between real and fake jewelry and whether it does or doesn't touch someone's skin? I'll answer that question; NOWHERE! So let me summarize, the NTCC is full of garbage and double standards and it wasn't just Mayers because I've seen all kinds of NTCC women wearing broaches to include Queen Bee Tanya The Super Spoiled Kekel.
In case people haven't figured out, I can't stand the NTCC and it's double standard rules. Based of what Jesus said to the hypocrite Pharisees, I'm sure Jesus can't stand the NTCC's double standards either.
Here is what Jesus said to the likes of the NTCC: Mat 23:4 - For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
In short, Jesus said the Pharisees were guilt of "DOUBLE STANDARDS", same as the NTCC. Jesus called them blind guides and hypocrites and I'm calling the NTCC leadership the same thing.
Even at that time, neither me or my wife bought off on that mess. At that time she stopped wearing even broaches altogether because even then we knew it was a double standard. The way we looked at it was if you are going to wear jewelry, then wear jewelry, and if your not, then don't try to slip in broaches, cluster rings and big fat cufflinks just to break the rules. I'm telling you, these NTCC people are full of trash.
Chief
You made me laugh about those cuff links, but don't forget about you men wearing the tie clips.
Unless you are dilbert and your tie needs some straightening then use a tie clip, otherwise it is a piece of jewlery!
God doesn't require women to look like weirdos. That is what the NTCC requires.
I remember one time hearing MK over the pulpit ask why NTCC women wear their hair with this big poof on the top of their heads, well when your hair is that long, you need to get some volume somewhere. All that weight just pulls it down. I never thought it looked the least bit nice, however, I understand why they do it.
Just sayin...
Anonymous said...
You made me laugh about those cuff links.
Chief said...
Yeah and these cuff links worn by the NTCC pastor were big gaudy cuff links. Yeah there is a purpose for cuff links but what's wrong with buttons? These particular cuff links worn by the NTCC pastor were big, fat, and vain and no different than any other jewelry. He had the cuff links because he wanted jewelry and the cuff links were an acceptable replacement (according to the NTCC) for a necklace or bracelet. He even had these things on his collar. It was jewelry and so were his wifes broaches and the big gaudy cluster ring.
Double standard. Memory of that whole mess makes me sick. I can't even believe that I dealt with it.
Chief
I'm sorry, but I have to say I don't agree. I've been a member of NTCC for about 3 years now. I was saved and filled with the Holy Ghost at the NTCC in Anchorage, Alaska. We have a growing church up here and we are all very close. Our Pastor and his Wife and the sweetest, most kind people I've ever met. We are very close to our Pastor and his wife. We have many get togethers with the church such as lunches, dinners, BBQ's... fellowship galore and it's wonderful! I'm happliy married with 2 kids and no I don't work outside the home; my husband and kids are enough work for me! Lol. I worked hard to obtain my law degree but have no desire to use it. Jesus & my family are my desire. I truly believe if I worked, God and/or my family would be sacrificed. I wouldn't have as much time to work for The Lord, or my family. I had kids so I could raise them... not a school or daycare center. I take all the pride in my Husband for "bringing home the bacon" it's very attractive to know my Husband works hard for his family (he does so just as the bible says he should) and my husband takes pride in me knowing I am taking care of him, his house, and his children. He loves to come home to his wife waiting for him everyday...as do I :) God made it this way for a reason. I have never never ever felt like a second class citizen as a woman in NTCC. My Husband treats me like a Queen and his role model is our Pastor. I've never met a fellow NTCC member that feels that way. I'm not saying some might, but I can say for myself and for the sisters up here in Alaska that we DON'T. Our Husbands, Pastor, and Reverend treats us with the utmost respect. It's a full-time job being a wife and my pay and benefits are the best I could ever ask for. Just a thought; maybe it's not NTCC you have a problem with, maybe it's God and His Word? Anyway, I felt the spirit telling me to leave a comment on this... I just stumbled across this website trying to find the NTCC home page. God bless, Everyone!
Anonymoous said...
I truly believe if I worked, God and/or my family would be sacrificed.
Chief said...
I was stationed at Ft. Richardson from 92-95. Very beautiful place. I understand there are benefits associated with a parent staying home with the kids but that doesn't make it a biblical mandate. The term "keepers at home" found in Tts 2:5 means to be a domestically inclined or a good house keeper. It doesn't mean that a woman can't lawfully work like the NTCC teaches. If you elect to stay at home, that's fine but it's not fine for a church to teach false doctrine by saying it's a sin for a woman to work. I'm not sure how much you know about the Bible but read Proverbs Chapter 31 and tell me if that chapter describes a woman who has a job. You'll find that it most certainly does and not only that, it says she is virtuous.
Your husband may make a good living in Anchorage and as a result you may have no need that financially requires you to work but such is not the case with a whole lot of other women in the NTCC. Their families are broke often with not enough money for food or not even enough money to pay their rent on time or keep insurance on their automobile. See, that's that part you don't know about or don't care about or explain away as just another "Christian Trial" now that you do know about it. Either that or the pastor says, "the reason they don't have money is because their heart is not right with God and God can't bless them". Well that is a bunch of psychological garbage and I hope you are smart enough not to buy off on it, especially being that you have a law degree.
And by the way, you are not planning on sending your kids to school? Of course a lot of people do home schooling and "sometimes". that's a good thing but there are also drawbacks however your children are your business not mine, so I digress.
You also said...
Just a thought; maybe it's not NTCC you have a problem with, maybe it's God and His Word?
Chief said...
No, it's the NTCC because I studied Gods word for years and years and too often the NTCC teaches false doctrine which is the opposite of God's word. You've bought off on the NTCCs jargon as I also did for the ten years I was with the NTCC but eventually I learned that logically thinking for myself wasn't a bad thing and much of what the NTCC taught was not Bible. Did you know the NTCC teaches that Cats are evil? Did you know that NTCC pastors have a history of killing dogs and cats? If your pastor says otherwise he is either really new to the NTCC or he has been willfully ignorant to those occurrences. If you read this blog with an open mind and really consider the things written here, you'd realize the NTCC is no more than a cult.
You wrote...
I have never never ever felt like a second class citizen as a woman in NTCC.
Chief said...
How many conferences have you been to and did you attend any from 2006 and dating further back? You would have had to be deaf not to here the gender put-downs directed toward woman had you attended conferences during that time. The truth is, you will simply dismiss everything I write as not corresponding with Gods teachings which you feel categorically exist within the NTCC. If I could prove to you, (which I could) with irrefutable evidence that much of what the NTCC teaches is in direct opposition to the Bible you would still dismiss it and I know why? Because you want to believe the NTCC because you believe you are living according to God's will and you don't want too believe otherwise because that would put in question the church that you so strongly believe in. No one likes to admit to themselves that they've been had. That is a tough pill to swallow. That would be an especially hard pill to swallow for someone like yourself who has a law degree because you consider yourself smart.
Good day.
Chief
Continued from above...
I would love to discuss it with you but that is also likely to never happen because you would feel like you are consorting with the devil by even talking to me and or you'd see no point in it because you are convinced that you are right and I'm wrong. I used to feel the same way when I was a part of the NTCC. I was afraid to learn and accept the truth about the NTCC because in doing so, I'd have to accept that I'd been played like a fiddle and who wants to admit that?
And by the way and let's be real and truthful here. Of course you know Christians are supposed to be that way. You didn't just "stumble" across this website". There was a link that you had to deliberately click on (which could be considered stumbling) but the reason you wrote that you'd "stumbled" is because you don't want people to think that you actually frequent such places and I'm sure you don't. I'm sure you had to deliberately click on the link to open this blog and willfully read the information contained within and additionally (if that wasn't already enough) you had to willfully post your message, all which were events that don't correspond with just "stumbling" across anything.
You've also written...
I felt the spirit telling me to leave a comment on this...
Chief said...
No you didn't. That was your spirit because you had the unquenchable desire to defend your church and your way of life. Saying you felt the spirit is religious jargon which I also previously used when I was part of the NTCC. I hear Baptists, Pentecostals, and Charismatics use that statement all the time. Did you hear an audible voice telling you, "SISTER POST A MESSAGE ON THAT BLOG"? Of course not, you said that because once again you wanted to justify even being here and you wanted to sound spiritual. The reality is, you couldn't resist leaving a message because what I'd written bothered you. That was the only spirit that you felt and I'm quite sure of it and the fact is, you admitted that in your very first sentence when you wrote: "I'm sorry, but I have to say I don't agree".
I could say that I really hope that one day, you get a true understanding of what the NTCC is really all about but in all actuality it really doesn't matter. For ages people have been tricked by manipulative churches and it's never going to end, so you continuing to remain part of that mess is really of little consequence in the grand scheme of things.
Chief
You felt the spirit telling you? The more I think about it, the more I see that as a lie but one that is fairly innocent because in the NTCC, folks are pretty well trained to get that kind of thing mixed up.
You were bothered by what I wrote plain and simple and you couldn't resist the urge to defend yourself, your lifestyle and your church and that is just the way it was and it had nothing to do with the spirit telling you anything. If you have a problem with that, (as you put it) you don't have a problem with me, but with God's word and with God because the Bible teaches that you shouldn't lie. I do understand that at which time you wrote that, you didn't see it that way. I don't believe I'd written what you wrote when I was in the NTCC because I was real careful not to lie.
Sure you don't have to work. Being that you have a law degree, your husband is likely a professional (I strongly suspect) who has no problem bringing home, as you put it, (the bacon). Well guess what; most men in the NTCC with "VERY" few exceptions don't fall in that category and as a result the families struggle severely.
Being that you are so intent to do the Lords will, why doesn't your husband quit his job and you and he both pack the belongings that you can carry in your car, sell the rest and leave Alaska to really do the Lords will by attending the NTCC Seminary? You said your husbands role model is his Pastor or would that be taking this (serving God business) a little too far?
Go to Graham where your husband can only work certain jobs Mon - Fri from 9-5 so you and he can be in every mandatory event the NTCC can dream up. You said your pastor is his role model and that is what your pastor did?
They don't want you working girl. They really want to control you because you have a law degree and women like you are a threat to the NTCCs scam. And they've done a pretty good job at doing exactly that; controlling you.
Then after you leave Graham, you and your husband need to go out and pioneer a church from scratch which according to the NTCC is really doing the Lords will or haven't they got to that part yet? Oh and I almost forgot; if he really wants follow the NTCCs lead, his ultimate goal is to become a full time pastor with no secular job what so ever. Then lets see how much bacon he brings in. But here is the reality. The NTCC doesn't want you to go off to Graham because your husband makes too much money and they don't want to loose his tithe that comes into the church in Alaska. Prove me wrong by telling your NTCC pastor that you and your husband really want to do the Lords will by leaving for Graham to attend the NTCC non accredited seminary like so many "men and woman of God" before you have done. Yeah, we'll see how dedicated to the Lord you really are or are you only as dedicated as your husbands job which allows him to bring in all that bacon? Food for thought.
"Just a thought; maybe it's not NTCC you have a problem with, maybe it's God and His Word? Anyway, I felt the spirit telling me to leave a comment on this... I just stumbled across this website trying to find the NTCC home page. God bless, Everyone!"
Great for you anon! My husband did not treat me like a second class citizen either. The checkbook was a different story.At various times, he was pressured to treat me a certain way. Because he had character, he refused. Our holy union was no ones business.
A online degree in criminal justice is not a law degree.
A woman with a law degree! I could see Davis stuffing and mounting that woman like a deer. Then he would place her on his wall at the lodge as a trophy. LOL. Doesn't Davis teach that lawyers and car salesmen are the most dishonest people on earth? I think so and I believe he said it in conference. Chief is right. They won't go to Graham. Her bring home the bacon husband makes life too easy for her. She reminds me of Tanya. I can see them in church now using her a the example of a christian woman and I bet she eats that stuff up. "Look at this sister, she has a law degree and she has left all that to do the will of God. God will give her many rewards in heaven for her sacrifice and dedication. If you ladies are looking to emulate a good christian woman, this sister is a fine example."
Sister cheesing, hook line and sinker. And that is how they get you.
Anonymous said...
I could see Davis stuffing and mounting that woman like a deer.
Chief said...
That is so funny. LOL. I could see RWD now: "Hey Brother Olson, come look at this. Here are all my guns, here are all my knives, here is my Rolex and here is the ex-lawyer woman I had stuffed which is my favorite piece in the collection." LOL!
Chief
Anonymous said...
Great for you anon! My husband did not treat me like a second class citizen either. The checkbook was a different story.
Chief said...
I hear your pain Sister but Anon can't understand that cause she has only been with the NTCC for 3 years and her husband brings home the bacon. Let her leave for Graham, pioneer a church, her husband go full time and then she'll start to figure it out.
Back in the day, let him not have gone full time, while only having 5 people in church and see how that would have worked out for them. RWD would have blasted them in the first conference they stepped foot in and then told them that the bacon winner loved his job more than he loved GAWD. Anon doesn't understand that and as long as she can sit at home while her husband brings home the bacon, she may never.
And you know what? That is her problem, not mine. One day she'll have to die and that will be a sad day if only then she figures out that she spent her entire life attending a cult.
Chief
It seems that there has been a turn around on the way that the churches do things.
Like in graham, they do christmas plays, not on the main chapel but with the teenagers and kids.
The ladies have get togethers for cookie exchanges. I mean if you are not that involved you probably will not be aware of the things that go on with those that are on the trenches.
In Alaska, where the weather could be a factor on people not going to church, the pastor has to use wisdom to keep people coming out, specially in that state where it gets 20 or more degrees below zero!
The pastor pretty much has carte blanche in doing whatever as long as it doesn't interfere with the schedule and the order of services.
Specially when you know that you will have to send the weekly report of what you did throughtout the week.
So probably this lady is having a good time there in alaska but all that can change once her husband wants to go to bible school.
Isaiah 24:5
"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, CHANGED THE ORDINANCE, broken the everlasting covenant"
Anonymous said...
Isaiah 24:5
Chief said...
I wonder what Anon was getting at? I guess someone changed the ordinance. Sounds like the NTCC to me. They've change a whole bunch.
Chief
Obviously the lady is a member, members are not treated in the same regard at all. Since there is no bible college there. She and her husband are doing things according to what their pastor preaches only. I remember being told a woman should not work, I worked until my children where born as well. Once my first child was born I stayed home to raise my baby.
You can best believe that when you say I am going to another church within the NTCC you will need to ask for permission. They most definately want that tithe check. Obviously, her husband makes enough money to sustain their lifestyle. So this is no problem for her. If she is a lawyer, she can still work from home of something, consulting. whatever. The woman working is not a sin. They just want to keep them in line. Nothing more. Chief, you are so right on, I can't even begin to tell you. Years ago we moved from a small church in Washington to the Graham church, when we told the Pastor at the time, he said he would need to get that "ok" d. My spouse said, oh no I don't I will do what I want to do. Of course we where only members. They did not want to see our tithe checks stop at the small church. Both of us where working at the time. I did not think it odd. Of course, now I know better. This lady in Alaska has been brain washed by her Pastor, hopefully she has not given her family the heave ho. She will need them one day if she stays in long enough. No church friend or brother and sister in the Lord will ever take the place of your family. I have seen countless families here just shut their families out for the sake of being around the brothers and sisters, but when trials come, they are not around for you. This has been my experience.
Anonymous said...
Obviously the lady is a member, members are not treated in the same regard at all.
Chief said...
Generally that is true but give them any indication that Bible school might be in your future and suddenly that all changes. In the case of some pastors, they treat their church like the NTCS right from the get go for all church members. I had three NTCC pastors which were like that. They all cracked the whip with regularity. She may have an easy going pastor and as a result her NTCC experience is severely skewed.
I know a brother who's been with the NTCC for probably a decade and a half. He used to catch some heat from one pastor but now they pretty much let him do as he pleases. As long as he pays tithe, does a little soul winning and picks a few people up for church they pretty much leave him alone. He has no ambition to attend the NTCS and he has made that known, so they don't put any heat on him regarding his work hours, vacations, etc.
Had he been with a few of the pastors I had, they would have smoked that dude and the messed up part is, he knows that but he elects to ignore that stuff. They are happy with his tithe, and he is happy to be part of the only church he's known for the better part of 15 years. He has never been a leader and he likes being a blind follower, and they like him being a blind follower because those are the people the NTCC really cares for. It is what it is.
RWD is the only real leader (without exception) who has ever remained with the NTCC. All the rest are followers except maybe Tanya. Tanya follows no one but she don't really count because she is his daughter. If there were any other real leaders, they would have questioned RWD and Kekel and RWD would have run such a man off or sent him somewhere that was considered less than desirable or kept him at Graham to rot and be preached at.
Chief
You are right Chief, as a member they do not, I repeat, do not tell you directly what you should be doing they do all this over the pulpit. But, you feel you should be doing what you are told ie soul winning, being in every service, bible studies etc, wife not working, PAYING TITHE, thats a big one. Wife dressing in line with NTCC standards and so forth. If you aren't doing all of the above then "you need to get saved". As members we tried to do all of the above.
Never once where we pulled aside by anyone and told anything about what we should or should not be doing. They make what a christian woman/man should do VERY clear over the pulpit. Of course, I was blind to what was really going on. Now the pieces of the puzzle fit for me. Now I get it. As members I was really in the dark, so to speak when it came to the NTCC and the way they operate. I now know that if I was in the bible college, things would have been very different for me and my spouse. This blog really helped me see what was really going on. It answered questions that I never could have pieced together on my own. Again, I am very glad it is here.
Anon said...
Again, I am very glad it is here.
Chief said...
Thank you. We've all put a lot of work and time into it.
Chief
I don't care much about all that "they've changed"
what I care about is what some of the leaders taught for years and now they say they've seen the light, so to speak.
So now what happens to the hundreds of people that did according to the past doctrine?
Their life and their families are messed up and things that they could have done differently is forever gone.
some kids are lost because of that and their childhood forever robbed.
How sad.
Barfield is a pretty good guy. I could see folks staying.
Bro Bro
You know, it's funny because I was at a conference and rw was teaching the pastors and he said:
Good guys finish last!
Anonymous said...
You know, it's funny because I was at a conference and rw was teaching the pastors and he said:
Good guys finish last!
Chief said...
That doesn't surprise me at all. He knows he is not a good guy and he knows that the good guys in his organization have not got ahead. The ones who had the ability to be straight bad guys are the ones who got ahead. People who really didn't care about others.
Chief
Chief, I was thinking today about something I read here from a anonymous poster regarding children of the NTCC members and licensed ministers children. How they might also be affected.
It gave me pause to think of my own, and the choices I made to accommodate the NTCC teachings. Although I did not follow every hard and fast rule regarding being in every service, so my children would be going to bed late the night of services during the week. I think about the fact that it is not acceptable to swim, so your child cannot go swimming, young girls wearing skirts and dresses. Not even pants when appropriate. This I always felt was odd. They are children. Why can't they wear pants, they need to wear long skirts just like their mothers, I have seen little girls, under 10 wearing heels with their dresses and skirts. Thankfully, I look back and feel I did not fully rob my children of their childhood, but I could have taken a more liberal stance when it came to some of the outrageous requirements I was expected to do as a parent in the NTCC. My child needs to know how to swim, it is a lifeskill all persons should know. I did alot to avoid dealing with swimming situations, all because of the NTCC. Another is sports, I think the NTCC is more liberal minded now. But, I think sports was frowned upon, especially for girls. How can they play any sport in a skirt. This is shear absurdity. My daughter should only wear dresses and skirts at school. Come on, I want her to run and play just like the rest of the kids. How can she do that in a skirt. They would also be teased because they are "different" as we all know children are very cruel to one another. Don't even get me started on the life of a teenager in the NTCC. I can only imagine what it would be like. I think that as parents we need to be more thoughtful of what we put our children through for the sake or our religious beliefs. We need to take responisbility for our own lives and for the lives of our children. The decisions we make now will affect them for the rest of their lives. What am I doing for the sake of the NTCC that will adversely affect my child? Think about it parents...
Anonymous said...
I think that as parents we need to be more thoughtful of what we put our children through for the sake or our religious beliefs.
Chief said...
Let me be the devils advocate here just for a moment. A Biblical or "religious" belief is good for all to include children as long is it is "Biblical". It is against the Bible (for example) for a man to have another man as his mate. It is what it is. If someones "wants" to follow the Bible, then that's in there and the Bible is not vague in that regard. So conversely, being that the law applies to "men" we can't ignorantly feel that it doesn't apply to a "boy".
To suggest that boys should get a break in that regard just because they are children would be wrong. So my point is, unless it's specified in the Bible, if an adult isn't supposed to do something, neither is a child.
Having said all that, here is the question? With regard to the subject you've written about, does the Bible say that a woman can't lawfully wear pants? If so, that applies to female children as well but if not, it applies to neither women or girls. Well I've broke that subject down in detail recently.
The one and only scripture that the NTCC even tries to use to suggest that a woman can't wear pants is Deu 22:5.
Well that is not what Deu 22:5 is saying at all and I proved it during another post. Deu 22:5 properly translated from Hebrew means that women or girls are not authorized to wear battle gear that a strong man or warrior wears who is fit for battle. The NTCC has that scripture completely wrong. Look it up in the Strongs Concordance, don't take my word for it.
So having concluded that, it doesn't matter anyway. Not only that, pants didn't even exist when Deuteronomy was written. So even if the NTCC was right with their translation, (WHICH THEY ARE NOT) who is to say that certain types of pants don't pertain women more than they pertain to men? I'm not trying to be tricky, this is a valid question.
The bottom line is, the Hebrew translation was clear. According to the Old Testament Law, a women shouldn't have been running around in a warrior's battle gear and that is clearly what the first part of Deu 22:5 was saying. The NTCC is full of it.
Chief
I know Chief, there is no sin in wearing a pair of pants. I was merely thinking about all the limitations we put on our kids because of the NTCC. Since leaving the NTCC I have thought about the impact the NTCC may or may not have had on my children. I think parents need to think about that. The reason we were told that a woman should not wear pants (over the pulpit] as I can't speak for bible college teachings, was that pants are lascivious. That was the only reason. But, isn't a too tight dress or skirt lascivious too. Oh no, I guess not. Whatever... I don't live under that bondage anymore.
Anon said...
The reason we were told that a woman should not wear pants (over the pulpit] as I can't speak for bible college teachings, was that pants are lascivious.
Chief said...
Yep, and they would always site Deu 22:5 as their support scripture. They also taught that tight pants on men were lascivious also. You know, the kind the G Kekel wore while playing football throughout high school. The Kekels made sure their kid wasn't deprived of "worldly" activities.
Whatever. Thank God that we got my little boy out of that mess early.
Chief
Chief
Yeah, many ntcc females, especially the "leaders" and pastor's wives, wore some pretty tight outfits...
All the while, telling their members not to. Hypocrites...double standard!
As far as female teenagers in the NTCC, they were once told that school and organized sports were not allowed, to wear dresses, school dances (homecoming, prom, etc.) were not allowed, dating was frowned upon unless chaperoned and with a boy from NTCC, no makeup, no nail polish (except dull clear), no cutting hair, as you get to be a teenager wear heels and 2 piece suit sets to look more attractive to the men at conference, don't get into debt, complete highschool to go to Bible College and try to marry a minister. It's no wonder teenagers are turning away from them, lots of stuff changed with Grant and kids are smart enough to recognize hypocrisy. Just ask the Pelfrey's...
Well Chief, I'm back from that dismal vacation. We spent a horrible week at a beachside resort in New Smyrna Beach in Florida, listening to the waves and trying not to feel guilty about all the perishing souls. We forced ourselves to dine on fresh seafood over and over again--it was hard to avoid total depression. Saw Doug Allen too; he's just really gone downhill since he left NTCC. I think the devil must be rewarding him, because there are no big judgments to report, and his life appears to be blessed in every way (but we know it's all fake). We commiserated over our shared NTCC-less fate.
Then it got really bad; we flew to Antigua and lived on a yacht for 12 days--that was excruciating. All that sunshine and beauty only reminded me of how empty I am without the org micromanaging my every move. Listened to some sinful steel drum and reggae music live, and it really made me pine for the quartet and its stunning creativity. And the snorkeling was almost intolerable with the clarity of the water and the array of tropical marine life. I took lots of photos to remind me of my folly.
Finally we went to New Orleans and endured Mardi Gras. There were endless parades and music, and all that authentic Cajun food made me yearn for the good old days of ramen noodles.
Now that I'm back I'm having a hard time shaking the resulting funk, but now that I have the internet again, I think I'll go to Mike's blog and the NTCC website and try to cheer myself up.
Reading some of these posts, i realize, once again, that we need a 'sarcasm font'..... maybe call it "Sarcastica" ?
Greetings... I stumbled on this blog and I would like to add my two cents. I was a woman in the NTCC for a few years, and it nearly ruined my life. I was just a member, but any single woman in the church can attest that you are quickly pushed through to a higher "rank" since they have so many single brethren they want to marry you off to.
I was miserable at the church. I was always broke trying to meet their unreasonable demands and I was "hunted" by dysfunctional men 10+ years my senior. I was discouraged from any form of self improvement, be it education or exercise or repairing relationships with my family. Yeah, RWD and his minions like to laugh at the "fat ladies" in their church... Of course the women are fat... You ever tried to jog in a dress with a poofy hairstyle?
I'd like to attest, for the women still in NTCC, it can and does get better for us too when you leave. It is hard to divorce your husband (yes, if he insists he wants to stay *in*, you may have to or the abuse will never stop... I did.), pack your bags, and try again... but you can. If I can, you can. Since leaving, I've lost all the weight... I've rebuilt my self esteem... I went to college and got both baccalaureate and masters degrees... I've bought a home and a car... and I've married a wonderful Christian man. The hardest part was rebuilding the self-esteem... but you can do it and you can find the person you were before you were convinced you weren't.
If you want to leave, but are scared, please trust me: you can do it. Your life can be different and can be much better. You do not have to suffer the indignities that NTCC forces upon you.
God bless.
Dear Chief,
I hope you can help me. My ex husband attends this "church" he gets oit kids every other weekend. When he gets them all he does is go to this place. I get calles from my oldest saying they havent ate and its 2clock. Or how he is going to hell because he dont folow them. The list is so long i cant pit it all here. Im am taking him to court asap to get full custody of the kids. What i am hoping as a former attendee is there anyway you could write a letter on my behalf against thia church? We have three kids one is disabled. e is soon to be marries to a woman who his preacher chosen for him. I need help. One of our kids is a lil girl. Dragons1_f@yahoo.com
Wow read my comment and my phone left out alot of properly spelled words. I apologize, I'm having a very bad time with this issue.
Very nice article, I enjoyed reading your post, very nice share, I want to twit this to my followers. Thanks!. buy fake driver license
Post a Comment