I Just found these comments on DnA's blog. The answers to these questions are so obvious it's down right disgusting. Additionally, you are blind as a bat if you can't figure out what the New Testament Christian Church leadership is doing. Renting church buildings to the local churches is just another way for them to make money off the congregations and Pastors. When are you all going to learn that the NTCC is nothing more than a real estate holding company? We've been saying this for almost 10 years now. We've written so many threads concerning this topic it's not even funny. If you owned a house that you still had a mortgage on, would you tell the renters what the interest rate is or what the mortgage payment is? Of course not. The sooner you realize that the NTCC is not a church but a money making business, the better off you'll be.
Real churches don't have a problem with full disclosure. The NTCC leadership has ALWAYS had a problem with full disclosure and everyone knows that. You are a dummy if you don't know that. Stop giving your money to the NTCC!!! With all this information readily available, I really, truly can't believe how gullible people can be. Suckers; the real deal. Anyway, written below are the comments I copied and pasted.
Comment 1: My
wife and I spent hours looking and looking we finally found something with a
big area for a sanctuary and everything else that we were told to look for in a
church building also a price we thought we could afford since our congregation
was new and I knew we had to pay the mortgage. Next I contacted the leaders
they came to check it out without me and decided they would buy it. I wasn't
allow to be around for the buying process. I was told they might not want to
sell it if I was there or want to use my credit and a whole bunch of other
excuses. I had excellent credit at the time but I feared to argued because they
taught to question the leaders was to disrespect God. So I wasn't present. J.
Ashmore, J. Olsen, and another person that was on the board assured me that
once the building was paid for it became that individual church's building and
Graham would turn over the deed to the building to that church. I thought this
is a good plan. The building needed painting and a few other things not
anything major and it was listed for 76,000. Once everything was done I was
contacted to go out to eat. I thought we were going to go over the paperwork
but I was showed nothing. I was told your mortgage payment is 1300.00 a month.
I about chocked on the food in my mouth that was nowhere near what I and my
wife had planned for in payments. I said Oh there must be something I missed
because I thought the payments would be a whole lot less. It was told me that
there was more land that was not named on the paper I had, there was insurance,
the yearly taxes, and so on. I said we can't afford this. I was then told,
"Are you going to doubt like Peter or are you going to keep your eyes on
Jesus and walk on water. Matthew 17:20 tells us " And Jesus said unto
them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as
a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to
yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto
you." It is all about faith brother all about faith."
That was the last time my credit was excellent. We ended up losing the house we were renting and I had to move my wife and kids to a very tiny little apartment. My kids were so disappointed because the house had a big basement to play in at night after our long days and the last people had left the backyard set up for kids. My kids had so loved this house. It had made the move to a new place much easier. We were told that God wanted to teach us something that is why we were there. That sometimes God has got to take you to the desert to show you things.
Comment 2: As a pastor in NTCC, I
know one of many things that has really bothered me. I wouldn’t write it here if they would only
answer our questions. When we bought our Church and thankfully NTCC put up the
funds, I asked, What is the interest rate? They would not answer me. They never send us a statement. How will I know
when this is paid off? We’ve been paying for years, what is our current status?
Nothing. Then I figured out it was probably equivalent to a 6.5% interest rate
@ 30 years. Which at the time was great! But now, interest rates are at 3.75% and for a 15 year its down to 3%. So I asked,
Can we refinance this loan and pay it off sooner and that would help us go full
time sooner. As well as take off the
burden of a mortgage payment off of the back of the congregation. He just
looked at me. No answer. I thought to myself, This is really weird. Shady,
really. After I am dead and gone, who knows if they will
just keep on charging this congregation & pastor for a mortgage or for
renting this place. It doesn't make any sense to me. I don’t understand why there has to be so much
secrecy? Why not a mortgage statement? Why not an Escrow statement? Or at least
give it out once a year?
Comment 3: When we were in Lakewook, the NTCC had bought the property there and we were paying the mortgage payments. One day the man that had sold the property came to see that church that was now using the building and house. He was talking to Ralph St. Clair who was the pastor at the time. He shared how he had given NTCC a good deal since it was going to be used for a church site. They talked back and forth which lead Ralph St. Clair to discover that the payment was double the real mortgage payment. When asking the leaders about i,t he was told it cost to have the privilege to use one of NTCC's buildings and we are doing you a favor, so what are you complaining about and if it wasn't for the NTCC, you would have nothing. As I listened to this exchange between the leaders and Ralph St. Clair I thought, "we have nothing".
Comment 3: When we were in Lakewook, the NTCC had bought the property there and we were paying the mortgage payments. One day the man that had sold the property came to see that church that was now using the building and house. He was talking to Ralph St. Clair who was the pastor at the time. He shared how he had given NTCC a good deal since it was going to be used for a church site. They talked back and forth which lead Ralph St. Clair to discover that the payment was double the real mortgage payment. When asking the leaders about i,t he was told it cost to have the privilege to use one of NTCC's buildings and we are doing you a favor, so what are you complaining about and if it wasn't for the NTCC, you would have nothing. As I listened to this exchange between the leaders and Ralph St. Clair I thought, "we have nothing".
55 comments:
This is to whoever wrote comment #1. For all you know, they've already done a refi on the property or they've completely paid it off already. The NTCC leadership doesn't believe in paying interest. So what I'm saying is that they are just making money off you and your congregation. Not only that, I hope your plan wasn't to remain anonymous because you gave enough information that they know exactly who you are now and you've just been black listed. You were black listed anyway once you started asking questions in case you hadn't figured that out.
And did I read it correctly to understand that you haven't yet gone, "full time". So you are working to essentially pay the mortgage and you are helping G. Kekel attend school at a Catholic College or have you forgotten that it cost the NTCC "tithe payers" approximately $20,000 a year to send Grant to Charles Wright Academy which is what paved the way for his attendance to the Catholic College? You NTCC pastors need to wake up. It's not that difficult. Well actually, it obvious is. Whatever. Thank God it ain't my money any longer.
Anonymous Pastor wrote...
When we bought our Church and thankfully NTCC put up the funds
Chief wrote...
DUDE, ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Are you serious. Did you even hear yourself? Thankfully my butt!!! You are thankful that you are being used, played, and taken advantage of? The NTCC leadership is laughing at that statement. You are thankful that you are obviously being conned? They are keeping this information from you for a reason. I just don't understand NTCC people. I understand to a degree but to another degree there is no way I understand. Dude, you are being played like a fiddle. Take the same money you are sending to Graham in the form of of a quote, "mortgage" payment, rent or purchase your own building and leave the NTCC once and for all. What do you think Barnes and Ashmore did? Man oh man.
The ntcc is getting richer and richer off of real estate. They have one of the best scams going. They have their own cheap labor. They can erect a building at cost and have it paid for in a few short years. That same building will probably be paid for many times over the years. In Graham, they build those dorms for next to nothing and stuff a whole bunch of brainwashed cult members in them. Many of them will fix and repair the place for free or at the very worst the ntcc has their own cheap labor to fix and repair. Most of the Organization owned buildings in Graham are owned outright by the ntcc and many of those who own their own houses donate them to the ntcc so they don't have to pay taxes on them.
No doubt the ntcc has made a killing on renting real estate, to the ministers they send out. Such and Such is going to pioneer a work in Vermont, they would announce in conference and the masses would erupt in jubilee. That poor brain washed minister would have to find a job, and a place to live and a place to have church. If he could not put it together fairly quick, he would be considered a failure and his family would be looked down upon for not having enough God to dig out a work on his own. If all the stars aligned and he does put it together, he will probably have to come up with a chunk of money for closing costs and/or down payment to give to the rich hucksters in the ntcc, and they purchase the building, so you can't take the building and your congregation with you when you leave.
Don't dare ask them any questions about your mortgage or expect to be in on any of the refinancing process. It will never happen.
Anonymous Pastor wrote...
When we bought our Church and thankfully NTCC put up the funds
DNA say...
I wonder if the ntcc put up any funds at all. They probably have perfect credit and don't need any funds to purchase real estate. I've purchased real estate without putting a penny down. In fact I've gotten loans for buying a house that exceeded what I was paying for the house so I could have the money to fix it up. I would find a house that had an appraisal value that was much higher than the actual price and then find a lender who would lend 70 to 80% of the appraisal value. I bought one house for $25,000.00 that appraised at $58,000.00. The bank loaned me about 40k which was around 70% of the appraised value of the home. I walked away from the deal with a house and $15,000 to fix it up. I put some of that money into the necessary repairs and later sold it for $60,000. The people who bought it got a nice house in great condition that now appraised for $75,000. I'm sure the ntcc knows every trick I know and a whole lot more.
They probably walk away from many of their deals with cash from the bank, and they charge more than what they pay for the mortgage. What do they care as long as they have people who will not only pay for their property but will take up offerings for any repairs that they need. Then the ntcc will turn around and and refinance the loan and make even more money off of each church or home that they buy. I know. I've bought the real estate courses.
They will tell the minister that they 'took care' of the down payment and closing costs, but that doesn't mean that they paid one cent. If your credit is good enough you can purchase anything with no money down or contract the sellers to pay the closing costs.
You pastors who are fixing up all these buildings and putting on additions and such, are throwing your time, labor and money right in the toilet. Are you guys so blind that you can't see that the NTCC leadership is doing nothing but making a bunch of money off of you? Do you believe that God only wants the Kekel's to be monetarily rich but you don't deserve to be? If the church building belonged to you, you'd be the one making the money off of it. What, you don't believe in making money off your church members? Well you are letting Kekel make money off of them so what's the difference? How do you think Kekel could afford to send Grant to a high school that cost $20,000 a year? How do you think he can afford big houses and nice cars? Oh he invested wisely? With who's money and where did he get the money to invest?
I'll tell you where, FROM PEOPLE JUST LIKE YOU. I'd have money to invest also if everyone of you paid me rent on the church buildings that you've been using for the last 10 years or more. It's a real estate business. The NTCC real estate business. I don't know why I keep blogging about this stuff. If I spent as much time buying church buildings and renting them out to pastors as I do blogging I'd be a millionaire just like Kekel.
Go ahead y'all. Keep paying that rent and the Kekel's will keep getting bigger houses and cars and sending their son to great educational institutions. For guys who are so disciplined and such hard workers, you guys are so gullible and naive and easily taken advantage of.
Church people are the most gullible people in the whole word by far. You got billions of Catholics, JW's, Mormons, NTCCers, 7th Day Dudes and the list goes on. And guess what they all have in common. "ALL CHRISTIANS PAY TITHE AND GIVE IN THE OFFERING". You many not agree on much else but you definitely all agree on that one. Isn't it ironic.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, like RW Davis, Mike and Tanya Kekel.
Personally I don't believe they ever had the faith. They certainly didn't since the time they were leaders in the NTCC. They are not driven by the love of souls, they are driven by the love of money. And how do I know that for sure? RWD Quote: "If you don't like it here, there is the door. Don't let it hit you on your back side on the way out". "But make sure you pay your tithe before you leave". And everyone laughed about that one. Haha. Sick part was he meant it.
DnA,
They probably did put up the funds. In fact they may have paid for it outright. That's what they did here at Ft. Benning for the church building in Phenix City. They paid outright for it and the pastor/congregation still had to pay rent on it. They will always have to rent that building. It never stops. That's how it works. It's a rental business, plain and simple. Buy houses and church buildings and rent them to your church members and ministers for a serious profit.
It's just business man, no more no less. It's smart business. It's shrewd business. NTCC pastors shouldn't be called pastors but rather "tenants".
This however is not a new subject. We've ran this subject into the ground since the days of FACTNet back in 2007 or earlier. It is good that it's come back up but it's sad because there is so much information on this very subject, that there should be no NTCC minster being taken advantage of in this fashion but there are still plenty.
I just did some figuring on the church building here at Ft. Benning. When I was still in the NTCC in the end of 2007, beginning of 2008 I actually called the owner of the church building right before the NTCC purchased it. He was selling it for just over $100,000 dollars to the best of my recollection. Might have been $135K. I wrote about it somewhere on this blog years ago. Anyway I also remember Oberhauser saying that rent was "somewhere" around $2000 a month. My figures could be a little off but not by much. Also, he said openly during church service from the pulpit that Davis had the NTCC pay outright for the church building. Oberhauser, Cantrell and the church members did all the labor to fix up the church building. I was still in the church when it was being done. So long story short, it they paid $2000 a month for the last 7 years, that would be $168.000 paid already on a building that cost considerably less to purchase. Now it's straight profit which really it's been all along anyway because the NTCC could have flipped it for probably 4 times what they paid for it because of it being refurbished by Oberhauser, Cantrell and the church members.
People, the NTCC is a real estate business bottom line, end of story and the sooner you ministers figure that out the better.
I'm following that thread on D/A's blog. Now I see how much money can be generated.
If the building is paid off then the Tithe, Rent, offerings all become pure income to HQ. If the work fails and sells after being paid off then that probably is a windfall of money. No losses either way.
WHAT A SCAM...
This will tell you pastors who are peaking at this site what to do if you want to confirm what we're saying. Just ask for a mortgage statement. The church you're at probably has been paid for and you're paying rent?
Eventually you have to ask yourself WTF?
Thanks so much D/A and Chief. This is the issue that could break them if their pastors have any curiosity.
Anonymous suggested...
Just ask for a mortgage statement.
Chief said...
No need to do that. What good would a mortgage statement do? In the case of the church outside Ft. Benning, there was no mortgage statement because it was paid for in full from the start. Secondly, if there actually was a mortgage, the building belongs to the NTCC when all is said and done anyway, so they'll own it outright and worse case, they could sell it and get all their funds back and then some at any time. If I'm a pastor and you want me and my congregation to pay for a building, then the building should belong to us when all is said and done and the NTCC, shouldn't have any control of it. That's what Barnes and Ashmore figured out and that's why they left and that's why Davis left his church organization way back in the day so he could have control. Denis told me that's why he left. He wanted control and he knew he'd never have it while in the NTCC. He was tired of getting used so he decided to do the using just like Davis had all along. The whole thing is a scam.
The local church members and pastor should pay for utilities. If you want me to pay off a building, then the building should belong to me. You see, the way the system is set up now, it's a no lose situation for the NTCC and a no win situation for the NTCC pastors and congregations. And that's why Kekel is living in a really large house and driving really nice cars and he's able to send his kid to a high school at the cost of $20,000 a year and you are no able to do the same. It's a scam. Davis was the master of the real estate scam game. Bring people up to Graham, rent them your houses, rent them your dorm rooms, rent to them you church buildings, have them pay tithes and offerings, special offerings, pledges, etc. Create a situation where you basically get all of their money one way or the other. Then send them out into the quote "field" and create yet another unending flow of cash through, tithes, escrow accounts that get zero'd out and rental churches that at least (to the local churches) never ever get paid off. A never ending cash flow. The ultimate scam.
Then when anyone questions you, and wants answers, question their faithfulness and loyalty and treat them like you did them a favor because they even have a building. Boy what a psychological scam.
Matthew Reed told all about it when he left the NTCC. He told about how there was about $270,000 in escrow that he didn't know about until he asked the teller at the bank and then Davis got made at him because he wanted to use some of the money to get the leaking roof fixed. Davis told him to get the money from the church members. You can find his testimony right on this blog. The whole thing is a scam people. We've been writing about this whole real estate scam business for close to 10 years or more with all kinds of testimonies from real NTCC pastors all saying the same thing. And Olson is totally caught up in the scam. He's right in the middle of it.
Anonymous said...
This is the issue that could break them if their pastors have any curiosity.
Chief said...
You said "break them". It will never happen. If everyone in the entire NTCC left all the churches today, the NTCC leadership could sell everything and they'd figure out a way to work it all out. They (the Kekel's) and maybe a few others are already rich and that wouldn't be reversed. They'd figure out some loop hole to keep access to all those millions and millions and millions. It might even be billions. All the property the NTCC owns? What they own up in Graham is probably worth near 100 million anyway. The houses, land, churches, dorms. 100 million probably easily. Church buildings cost 3 to 4 times as much as houses per square foot if they are in nice shape. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the NTCC has close to 1 Billion dollars in assets. I think the church building in St. Louis is worth well over 10 million.
Break the NTCC/Kekels? Not hardly. If everyone left their churches, they'd laugh all the way to the bank. Davis set it up right. The only way, you'd break the NTCC is if Defrancesco decided to sing. He'd have to go to the IRS or the DA and sing like a bird and why would he do that. He'd go to prison like the res of them.
You see here is what gets me about this whole blogging thing. Hardly anyone posts and with certain exceptions to certain periods of time, it's always been that way. I wish 100 different people would come on this blog and post, and most of them NTCCers, but it won't happen. They are all, (with few exceptions) too scared or they've been brainwashed into not reading this stuff. So the reality is, this is all just a big waste of time at least for me anyway. Sure, it "might" help a few but for the few it helps, there are another 25 Billion church going suckers who hand over their money to a bunch of con artists like it grows on trees.
Look, church is fine when it doesn't revolve around the almighty dollar which unfortunately most churches do.
"Oh brother, but you need money to keep the lights and the water on".
Ok fair enough but I didn't give my money for you to send your kid to private academy high school at the cost of $20,000 a dog gone year and that kind of stuff goes on way too often in the Christian church world.
Creflo Dollar is currently (read the news) trying to have his church buy him a 65 million dollar plane to fly around and preach the Gospel because he's too good to fly commercial. No different than the NTCC leaders owning a bunch of multi hundred thousand dollar mobile homes thanks to my hard earned tithe money or Davis and the Kekels living in mansions because they are too good to ride and live like the rest of us. The NTCC is no different than Creflo Dollar's church in that regard.
I need my money a whole lot more than Kekel does and that's why he won't get another dollar of mine, other than what he is undoubtedly making off everything I gave in the past.
Chief Said " Hardly anyone posts and with certain exceptions to certain periods of time"
True but I look at your counter every day. an average of 42 new people view this a week. An average of 20 something come back every day. a lot is being read because sometimes the traffic/page views is over 100. This is working, I feel it (I know that's not proof).
There has been a huge spike in overall activity since Ashmore left. Keep the faith and keep the hope for those who are still caught.
Every time I read the comment #1 from the NTCC pastor, I'm totally amazed. He says he doesn't' understand? He wants statements and that would make him feel better? DUDE, DUDE, DUDE, DUDE!!!! WAKE UP!!! Use your brain. God gave it to you for a reason. US IT!!! The answers are so obvious it's not even funny at all!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'd like to just grab that dude and shake some sense into him. Here is the only answer you need pastor.
Hold church service, tell the few church members you have that you've all been took and collectively leave the NTCC TODAY! Don't give Graham anymore than they've given you. No statement, no notice, no nothing. Just leave and stop sending them money for a building that you and anyone else who's in it will always be charged rent forever.
Pastor, you are responsible to God for the money that's being conned from "YOUR" church members because you know what the NTCC leadership is doing is wrong. No statement, no answer, no nothing? Dude!!! It's dog gone obvious. You are letting the NTCC leadership "STEAL" from your congregation which makes you just as much of a thief as them.
You call that Christ-like? Christian, saved??? Really? Whatever, I have other stuff to do other than type real fast. I can't even read that statement again because it just make me upset. It's frustrating because of all the thousands of hours I've put into this blog. And that's why I stopped blogging for so long. I'd be a lot happier if I just joined Kekel and Olson so I could charge you rent on the same church building for the next 100,000 years. Hahahahahaha.
I'll tell you what Pastor. I'll buy a church building and you rent if from me and I'll send you a statement every month. If the mortgage is $1100 a month I'll charge you $1500 a month and when it's paid off we'll rent the building to someone else and split the profit. We'll do a contract. I'll make my little $400 a month you'll be joint partners with me when it's paid off and it will be a win, win. I'm dead serious.
If you can't buy your own church I can but there has to be something in it for me. It lest I'm being straight up and honest and you know the terms. I make my profit and you are part owner in the building when all is said and done. I'm dead serious. Start a church here in Columbus GA and I'll give you a statement every single month and you can be there at the time of the purchase. Everything up front. No secrecy. Then when it's paid off, I'll buy another church building, you can rent the first one, in time pay off the second one, and you can start your own church rental business. Next thing you know, we'll have 10 church rental properties here in Columbus GA and they'll always make money because Columbus is full of soldiers and Military retirees.
The main difference between us and the NTCC is we will be known as a church rental company, and everything will be on the up and up and everything will be on the table.
And you can always keep one of the church buildings for your congregation and that one will belong to you once I get my little $400 a month profit until it's paid off. You must pay for the upkeep. If something gets broke you pay to get it fixed but you'll own the building in the end. I want my $400 free and clear. That sounds fair to me. Now the other building, we split the rent. 50-50. You can even cut your church members in on a percentage of the profits because they will have been the ones who paid off the church buildings in reality all along.
You see that's the difference between me and those crooks up in Graham. I'd cut everyone in on the profits, to include the church members but they'd never even consider that approach.
I can't stand those crooks but make no mistake, I respect them and don't jump on me Don for making that statement. They may be a crooks but Kekel and Dead Davis are a whole lot smarter than their church members and ministers with the exception of the ones who leave whether sooner or later. If you don't figure them crooks out eventually, you are definitely not very smart. You may not think Kekel is smart but he was smart enough to marry into the money which is whole lot more than I can say for most NTCCers current or ex.
Kekel is lucky he jumped on Tanya quick, (pun intended) because back in the day, I'd been all over that bottomless money pit had I been given the chance. You can be fake if you want to but I'm real. You tell me one hard up Brother who wouldn't have married Tanya back in the day? Get real. Every brother I knew would have married that girl and they'd be living in a mansion right now with millions in the bank. You marry Davis' daughter, you get Davis' money and that shouldn't be any surprise.
"Oh Chief but my wife is better looking".
Chief said...
Yeah and your broke so where is that getting ya? Tanya has enough money to make herself look anyway she wants. And you wouldn't have to look at her much anyway because you'd be riding around in that big fat car checking on all your rental properties. Get real. Kekel got the fattest cow on the farm, no pun intended.
I know you probably hate suggestions but is there anyway you could post the 3 newest blogs across the top as links. Sometimes I think when you put something new over something semi new it then gets lost. To many good things to read on here.
I don't think there is a format for that in google blogs. I wish this format was different also. You are right about things getting lost or pushed to the bottom. The original FACTNet was the best format. I'm sure there is probably something else available like it but I'm not willing to invest the time or money to find it.
Good suggestion though.
Cheif
I don't hate suggestions at all. I fact I like them. It shows interest. Thanks.
Chief
Oh well, thanks though Chief
You're welcome. Take care.
Chief
The NTCC is a CULT, in a cult the people just walk around and do what they are told, never asking questioning, that is what cults do they use control. This church makes me ill, sorry I was ever a part of it.
Also wanted to add this, when I left the NTCC cult in Graham I had to apologize to my family and say I was wrong. God was not wrong, it's not God's fault I ended up there for so many years. I did say some regretful things to them, but they understand, I was brainwashed ad should have read my bible....not gone to church with no bible and just listened to whatever they told us. I have said some things with conviction that I cannot take back.
preach it... I can't believe I was part of it either. I treated my wife like garbage. I was a disgrace in my thinking
I tried finding out from the Corpus Christi clerks office if there was a mortgage on the church. They told me I could find out but I had to come down there. I live about 1000 miles from TX so that aint happening. I'll do more research and let you all know if I find something.
God bless and lets bring down the con artists.
I wouldn't worry about a mortgage statement. It's obvious how the NTCC operates, with or without such a document. They bleed everyone to include (and most of all) their own ministers. A statement isn't necessary to validate what we already know to be a fact.
You should add to the list here what the one pastor said about a 76000 dollar building and being charged $1300!!!!! that is absurd! He said he almost choked on his food, funny. haha. if it wasn't real lives being destroyed.
I know, right? Even at six percent, the monthly principal and interest payment on $76K for a 30 year note is $455.66. No way taxes and insurance will inflate that another $800+. The NuTCCase "leadership" consists of a bunch of outrageous ripoff artists. These sharks could school Tom Sawyer--he only got a few trinkets for "letting" his friends paint the fence; at least he wasn't destroying lives in the process. Amazing how low some people will stoop for filthy lucre. Listen to Chief--flee now, before they can get another dime. They are the enemies of any God worthy of the title.
Vic, there isn't any real estate taxes to be paid. Its a church. Non profit. So they don't pay taxes. Check your county website, it will confirm this.
So $1300 on a 76000 building? $400 mortgage, no real estate taxes due, and 50-100 for insurance. so 500 a month would be max. They were making $800 off of you monthly, while your kids didn't get new clothes or toys and then you had to struggle to get to conference in a beat up car, only to hear the man get up and belittle you because you don't have enough faith to buy nice things. Then he'd point at his brand new car and say, Look what I have, Look what my faith got me. Why aren't you like me? Then he'd make fun of you for going to the kook store, but after paying $1300 on a small building and kids, where else could you go? This is horrible. I can't believe by sitting in those pews or saying amen, I agreed to such insanity.
Anonymous just nailed it. What else is there to say. That's the NTCC and that was Davis.
Chief
Yes, this is about Creflo Dollar. I am just surprised NTCC hasn't tried it yet.
Captain Kirk said...
Yes, this is about Creflo Dollar. I am just surprised NTCC hasn't tried it yet.
Chief said...
Au contraire my friend, but indeed they have in different way. Just ever so slightly more subtle and inconspicuous, (but not much). At least not much to anyone with eyes, ears who are willing to see and hear.
A small fleet of extremely nice large RV's traveling across the United States parked at the camp ground in plain view for all to see. Possibly $300,000 to $500,000 RV's each.
Large houses with abnormally elaborate expensive trees used in landscaping and expensive hard wood floors and tile adorned with uncommonly rare and expensive furniture.
Over the top use of luxury vehicles (cars) such as Cadillacs and or BMWs or classic collectibles.
$20,000 a year grade school education for Grant that is conservatively estimated at the cost of nearly $200,000 for his entire K-12 education. (look on Charles Wright's website if you don't believe me under tuition or admissions. Currently the cost shows $22,140 a year. Multiply that times the number of years Grant attended school there. That was at NTCC tithe payers expense. Your kids suffered so Grant could live in complete luxury from the start of his day to the finish.
Rental properties galore which are no secret being that NTCCers are the ones renting them and paying the rent in cash to hide the profit in a church that is supposed to be (non-profit).
Tithe which was paid up in Graham for years in again (cash) to once again hide the profit. This has been reported by people who lived in Graham to include ministers.
Expensive gun and knife collections. Davis wanted "HENRY" rifles. Look them up. Only collectors want "HENRY" lever action rifles. I'd like one to put on my wall. Any NTCC tithe payers up to the task of providing me one?
Rolex watches owned by and purchased for the NTCC leadership and extremely nice ones at that which have been estimated at the cost of approximately $20,000 a watch. Go to Rolex's website if you don't believe me. Davis wasn't happy with one that he was given the first time, (which NTCC tithe payers paid for) so he wanted the more expensive version which if I recall correctly MSRP'd for nearly $23,000.
Do I need to go on? Creflo Dollar? The NTCC leadership has tried that and successfully pulled it off time and again. They'd rather ride around in RV's than a plane anyway and so would I.
None of this is new news. We chronicled these very examples all along right here on this blog. Millions and millions and millions have been spent of these NTCC con artist leaders for everything and anything they could possible "Dream" of, Tanya being at the forefront with the luxury spending. Let me emphasize the word one more time and please pay attention. Everything they could, (pay attention) "DREAM" of. And it was all with your dollar NTCC people.
We were all hoodwinked. Conned. Tricked. Nothing about this points to Christianity that's found anywhere in the New Testament Bible. Paul, James, John, Peter did NOT, I REPEAT, NOT LIVE LIKE THAT and there is no biblical example that even remotely suggests that they expected to.
Chief
I posted a new comment. It's now comment # 1. All you got to do is have faith, hey brother?. That will pay the mortgage for sure. What a scam. Knowing what I know now, I'd tell Olson and Ashmore to kiss my white butt and pay the mortgage themselves. Olson and Ashmore are a couple hucksters and liars. Straight dirt bags. Look what happened to that guy and his family. That's what you get when you trust Olson. He's a scum bag. The bottom of the bucket. Complete DIRT. In case you haven't figured it out, I don't think very highly of Olson. He's the most low down person I've ever had the displeasure of knowing in my life.
If you don't want to wind up like that poor guy and his family, and you are still in the NTCC, you better take careful heed to what I'm saying. Olson is a cold blooded wolf in sheep's clothing. He's the Devil and very good at deceiving people. Don't be fooled by Olson. When I look at Olson I see horns sticking out his head.
I never knew Olson but if his Daughter would leave what's that say?
Hello,
To whoever wrote the last remark that is no longer visible: For the record, I understand as well as anyone, that the NTCC leadership is bunch of crooked con artists. I clearly understand that they are a menace to society. There is no doubt in my mind. That includes Kekel, Olson, Defrancesco, Johnson, Jones and the rest of those enablers.
Look at the testimonies on this front page. It's obvious, (as it has been for years) that the NTCC leadership wrongfully takes advantage of people in it's organization. It simply doesn't cost anywhere near $1300 a month for a $76,000 piece of real estate. And even if there was land involved in the deal which the pastor didn't know about, it's a crooked practice to purchase it and then (AFTER THE FACT) tell the pastor that it's his responsibility to pay for it when they wouldn't even allow him to be present for the purchase. It's a con game and it's obvious to see. I've read hundreds of these same kind of testimonies from NTCC ministers so there is no way they are "ALL" lying. Not only that I personally witnessed the same kind of stuff when I was in the NTCC so their testimonies line up perfectly with my "PERSONAL" experiences.
Having said that, what I'd like to stay away from, is remarks that could be interpreted to provoke the wrong reaction. I may call the NTCC leaders every name in the book, but there is a certain type of approach that I can't advocate on this blog.
Thank you.
Hey,
I would love to see some godly vengeance taken out on certain people but don't sound like a serial killer dude.
This is MDR and I'm BAAAAACCCKKK!!!
A dude who still goes to the NTCC compound in Graham occasionally asked Schmekel (AKA Bam Bam) what happened to Reed, and he asked if what Reed was posting on the internet was true.
The guy told me Schmekel said that he shut me up on the internet. Well, the only reason I shut up was because Jeff decided he wanted to go bowling and just enjoy life. Yeah, Jeff!
The man said Schmekel told him he wished he could run into me somewhere, as if to infer he would beat me up. Well, pick your spot, Bam Bam. ;-) LOL
I dealt with NTCC and the acquisition of real estate at Ft. Hood, TX, and in a building program at Ft. Riley, KS, and what is being shared here lines up with my experiences. Also when we were at Ft. Gordon, GA, the dumpy old trailer home which had been there forever was supposedly behind in payments when we arrived. I asked, when is this going to be paid off? Oh, it's coming. When? We got it current and kept paying until we left, and we never got an answer.
As a pastor in NTCC, I was a mushroom. I was kept in the dark and hip deep in their sheep dip.
Nice to see you blogging again, Jeff!! How about them Seahawks?!?!
mdr
They lost the Superbowl Bro. Did you miss it? Haha. Good one. Dude, I stayed in that double wide trailer back in 1986 when I went to BNCOC at Fort Gordon. I'd bet that double wide was paid off years before you arrived. I'm sure they paid cash for it from the get go. Behind on payments my white butt. That was just another of the NTCC leadership's way of saying, (it's been a few months since they've sent "US" any money). That thing would have been payed off for years before you ever got there. It was no more than yet another example of the never ending money flow.
The NTCC leadership is nothing but a bunch of scam artists. I'm still bowling bro. Just decided to get back involved with this for a bit due to Ashmore leaving. I figured it would generate some interest. I was right. I'm doing good though and I hope you are also. I'm sure you are.
Be careful of Schmekel. He probably took my money and yours to purchase the best Kung Fu lessons that money can buy. He probably paid at least $100 - $200 a lesson. NTCC tithe payers money hard at work. Just joking but it wouldn't surprise me though. Didn't he put Grant through Karate lessons? It wouldn't surprise me if he took some also.
You know he's running scared. He's probably looking over his shoulder every step he takes. That's the life you live when you rip people off for decades. No rest for the wicked.
JC
Hey Mad Dog, glad you're still around to help remind the ensnared that their leaders are crooks. It was bad enough that they were doing that little "escrow" scam; now we learn that they're inventing fake mortage payments that are jacked up 100% or more. Is there no end to the evil inventions they devise to separate the sincere from their meager resources? Who back in the day would have thought that our kind and loving "superiors" were just moneygrubbing dogs stealing us blind? It was beyond our comprehension, because we judged them by ourselves, and that kind of behavior was alien to us. Not to them, though; they were laughing all the way to the bank (and they had to make lots of trips just to make sure those piles of cash were kept beneath pesky IRS reporting threshholds). Crooks, liars, scoundrels, charlatans, grifters, phonies, exploiters, manipulators, and most of all...colossal assholes.
I can't believe that MDR, thanks for adding to the fire. How much does a trailer cost in the country? 10 to 20,000, if that? And they were paying on that for years?
But we all know the Man's attitude towards money. He'd say something like, Make them pay for it or they won't appreciate it.
Well, besides paying a mortgage that is already paid off, they paid 1. Pastor tithe, 2. Church Tithe, 3. Personal Tithe. 4. World Missions Offering Panama, Phillipines and whatever else. 5. Special Offering to Rev Jones going to Philippines (doesn't world missions cover that?) 6. Campground offering 7. Regular church offerings 8. Put in your budget money to go to conference at Missouri, then God will tell them to have it in Graham so THEY could save some money but we had to fly across country.
Oh but make sure you charge them for a doublewide already paid off, to make sure they aren't free loaders.
I can't believe we fell for this.
I can't believe we fell for it either. I won't happen again. People think you can trust church folks when those are the ones who are often the most crooked.
Chief
That Trailer was there in 83 when I started attending church. I know it wasn't new either because there were pictures in an album from the previous pastor. The pastor at that time was Cyrius and before that I believe it was Taylor and that double wide trailer was probably there when the Salvador's started that work back when the Gaylords purchased a house in Augusta. I'm not sure exactly what year it was purchased in but I know it's probably around 80 or 81, just a guess.
I'm sure they got they're money's worth and then some out of that trailer. It never had a decent foundation, just that cheap trailer skirting around it. One time a possum got trapped in between some chicken wire and the insulation and died right under Ted Kock's room. He couldn't stand the smell so he started sleeping on the couch. Ballard ended up pulling the maggot infested decomposing possum carcass out. We also had a bon fire one time in the back yard and burned up some old mattresses. We got into the shed and started tossing old cans of spray paint into the fire. One of the cans exploded and was launched like a projectile into the side of the trailer. It put a hole in the back of the trailer which we never repaired. Sorry about that Kekel if you are reading, I guess things got a little out of hand back in those days. Glad we didn't tell anybody about the damage or we probably would have had to pay an arm and a leg to Graham. We also used to break many of the rules. Oh well, what are rules made for, but to be broken. Looking back on those times, they were good times and we enjoyed life as much as a cult member could.
Sounds like the pot is stirring up!!! I wouldn't doubt that all the new views are the Board of hucksters from the NTCC trying to figure out how to make the internet the sinnernet again.
ANON Mike
Did you see D/A's latest thread on Ashmore calling out NTCC for being a cult that abuses people. It's a game changer along with all the real estate scamming being discussed here.
Keep it up chief/D/A
Keep up the good work if exposing the con men posing as men of gawd. I got the left foot of fellowship around 1982. I as others have been so blessed since then.
Anyone know where Sensenbaugh ended up?
Whatever happened to Blumenthall? I hope he is doing well.
I always heard that Sensibaugh pastored some big "compromising" church in South County (near St. Louis). It appears he may have gone to Florida afterward. I've never really tracked him down to get his take on the whole NTCC mess; I'm sure it would be interesting. RW once preached a message where he talked about how he had sort of "adopted" this guy (he didn't use his name, but it was apparently him), and how in the end he compromised and betrayed him. Now I wonder how it really went down, because we know Rear Wheel had a strong penchant for lying.
ANON AP
Someone mentioned Sensenbaugh had found out some of the shady, perverse things going on so he left. Don't know though.
I knew Reverend Kocks and Pastor Oliveraz from Campbell. Looks like Oli is still in.
I believe Kocks got married. Oli is somewhere in the southwest I believe.
As a pastor, and as a pastor who was pastoring within the org when church property was purchased, it saddens me to know that some of my fellow brethren were treated this way. Is there no regard for peoples lives? And who is it for man to set another up for a burden or failure and claim that it is God who is behind it? Thank you for your testimonies/ comments, although heartbreaking, it just verifies why my wife and I left last year. We are still pastoring, God is still blessing and we are enjoying our Christianity more than every. You can fulfill the call of God outside of NTCC, by the grace of God! L.F.
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I was just recently “black listed” for asking questions of course. I just want to know any information on what’s being hidden. I know there is something and I already know somethings and asked questions about which is why I was black listed. I just feel like there is something I’m missing
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