What do you suppose will happen to you, if you are a Christian who is a tithe payer, or one who believes in paying tithe, and you completely stop paying tithe??? Or, what if you are a Christian tithe payer and suddenly, (for whatever reason) you no longer believe in paying tithe, and you completely stop paying tithe??? In either case what I'm asking is, will there be consequences?? Tangible consequences?? What will happen to you. Legitimate question. I'm curious to see as many responses as people are willing to leave and what people think and believe. PLEASE POST ANONYMOUSLY. Again, I have my reasons for making that request. It will make this thread far more interesting.
Also, feel free to give the reason for your answer to include scriptures if you think that's necessary. Either way on that one.
Chief
120 comments:
I can tell you that tithing to me isn't something I mind. I understand the need to take care of the pastor as well as having a respectable building with AC/Heat. All of it costs money. Is the church a building? No, I got that. If no one tithes/or gives generously in offerings to me that's like being a welfare Christian. Once the building is lost you'll move to another church and suck off the resources of that church.
I don't know if not tithing is a bad thing per se but not giving at all would indicate where you place your values.
Should the pastor be able to get a mansion off of the people's dime? I would say it's not wise. Get a respectable home and vehicle but be modest.
I probably didn't answer much of your question but I think the bottom line is Tithing/generous offerings are necessary for the success of the programs a church is to have.
I stopped paying tithe and got told to leave NTCC. Another church said that I was robbing God so I left. Quit paying tithe and you will find out what kind of church you belong to. When I donate monies it only directly goes to food banks and to homeless shelter.
The issue is more of stewardship and a heart issue. Here are some reasons why I may miss a "tithe" payment:
1. A family that attends my church fell on hard times and I used the money for benevolence
2. I am unemployed
3. I am relocating and I am not be part of a local church
4. I am on a foreign trip outside of the US
I am sure there are more reasons, but I can't think of more at this time. What am I doing with what God has given me?
There is no such thing as a non tithe paying Christian. I was told that All Christians pay tithes and give in offerings, therefore if you don't, you will die and go to hell, thus sayeth Kekel and Davis. Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn, and believe me there is a lot of corn that needeth to be treadethed out. If I were to stop paying my tithe, the man of God would have to get a job, and work to feed his face. Why should the MOG have to work when he can be a welfare pastor?
Paul should have never been a tent maker and he is going to have to answer for all of those poor souls that he cheated out of being a blessing to, by not forcing them to pay tithe. Paul could have been rich and had a nice building with stain glass windows to preach out of if he only would have collected tithe and stopped making tents. All of the poor people that followed Jesus should have paid him for the privilege of preaching to them also. All of the miracles should have been accompanied by an offering basket so that Jesus wouldn't have had to preach on a mountain side. How heartless is it to allow people to keep their money and prosper when you can require them to pay 10% of it to a preacher so they can be blessed? It's not fair to the preacher who should be allowed to slum off of his members and it's not fair to the members who are being cheated out of a blessing.
If I stopped paying my tithe, I would obviously split hell wide open because I believe in the doctrine of Davis more than I do of Paul, who didn't want to burden the early church and therefore worked and preached. Imagine that.
First Anonymous said...
I probably didn't answer much of your question but I think the bottom line is Tithing/generous offerings are necessary for the success of the programs a church is to have.
Chief said...
Fair enough. You see I'm following my own guidance. The only thing I ask, (if you don't mind) is what do you think would happen to you specifically if you stopped paying tithe? Would you be cursed, blessed, nothing happen etc? Interested in your take but thanks for the answer. Again, fair enough.
I'm not debating anyone, I'm simply responding and I'm not breaking my own rules because being that I'm the moderator, it should be clear who is responding anyway which is why I put my name.
I'll plan to respond respond to more.
Chief
Anon 2 wrote...
When I donate monies it only directly goes to food banks and to homeless shelter.
Chief said...
Has it been rewarding to you donating to homeless shelters and such? Thanks for the reply.
Chief
Anon 3 wrote...
Here are some reasons why I may miss a "tithe" payment:
Chief asked...
Did you feel guilty when you missed? Just curious. Sincerely an interesting answer. Thanks.
Anon 4 wrote...
If I stopped paying my tithe, I would obviously split hell wide open because I believe in the doctrine of Davis more than I do of Paul, who didn't want to burden the early church and therefore worked and preached. Imagine that.
Chief said...
I get what you are saying. The satire was fine. I'm confident I understand your views. Quite a few different views here. I think it's great. And frankly to me they all have validity and I understand why people feel the way they do. Thanks. For the record, I have not responded to my own question "YET". Eventually I will and when I do, it will be anonymous like everyone else. I think this is good. If I do say so, a new approach indeed.
Oops, I got mad and broke your rules Chief. I forgot to post anonymously on that last comment and I got off course a little bit. My honest and sincere answer to your question is no. I don't think think That God would love me any less. I don't think that the Pastor of the church is going to suffer any more than the rest of us if he gets cheerful gifts as opposed to mandatory payments. I think that if I never paid a dime of tithe for the rest of my life, I would have just as good or probably a better chance of making it to heaven than the sanctimonious individual that blows a trumpet every time he drops an envelope in the tithing basket.
I fixed this and changed this to Anonymous...
If you are part of a church that teaches that you have to pay 10% to be right with God, or to be a good steward or whatever, and there are 5,000 members in your organization that have the same belief and you make have an average income of $30,000 per year and each tithe payer pays $3,000 per year, that means that your church is receiving 15 million bucks every year. Is it really necessary for you to pay your tithe? Does God need that money or does your preacher want that money? Where is all the money going? Is your church a non profit organization? Even if there is zero transparency in an organization like the ntcc, common sense tells you where the money is going. If you think that it's all going to the work of God, you are void of common sense. If your overseer lives in a huge mansion and sends his son to a private school and drives around in expensive sports cars and Recreational Vehicles, that means you are gullible. The bible doesn't require you to pay tithe but your church leaders have taken you for a fool and they are using your money to get rich while you are scraping by. Go ahead and keep paying your tithe while they laugh all the way to the bank.
Anon 5 wrote...
If you are part of a church that teaches that you have to pay 10% to be right with God
Chief wrote...
You guys will receive 10 lashings. You broke the rules. Bad, bad, bad. No desert for you. Now all joking aside. The reason I'm trying to avoid having names attached with opinions is that I don't want the perception to be that all the people who left and post here don't agree with tithing. I'm trying to avoid this becoming an us against them which I'm not very good at. That's the reason I'm sticking to my own rules and not disputing anyone.
Additionally I really am interested to see what people think and so far these answers are good and interesting. I like your response but it would have been better anonymous. This way, at least for this thread, nothing becomes personal and I think people will feel more free to post what they feel. I think it's a good approach. Just seeing how it works out.
Chief
Chief,
No I did not. I was confident that I had sufficient reason to believe I could miss a payment.
NTCC did not understand that I am a bondservant of Jesus Christ and I didn't work for them. I will answer to Christ and Christ alone for what I did with everything he blessed me with and my stewardship is not limited to money.
Do you want an example? Why is it that NTCC stresses that I need to show up atleast five times a week based upon a passage in Hebrews, but NTCC does not make the same emphasis when it come to discipling our families?
Genesis 18:17-19 17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him
I need to pay tithes because Abraham paid tithes, but I shouldn't worry about discipling my family because NTCC will do that for me five times a week.
Chief, I left the NTCC four and half years ago. I started going to another church and paying tithe there because I felt like I was going to be judged by God if I didn't. The NTCC conditions you to believe that Tithing is a big time Heaven and Hell issue. People in the the NTCC are "guilt tripped" into paying tithe.
I finally realized that paying tithe was and is a teaching under the law instituted for the Jews and never intended for the gentiles to pay. Any Preacher/religion that teaches that tithing is a commandment for the believer under Grace is full of ...
I quit paying tithe and voila, there's money for buying houses and enjoying life.
It's amazing that Davis and Kekel would use all of the tithe gathered to build Mansions and live a life of extravagance, but if you pursued those same things you were condemned for having a love affair with the world.
I don't pay tithe anymore and I'm way better off financially than ever before!
LIFE IS GOOD BEING FREE FROM NTCC!!
Anon 6 wrote...
I don't pay tithe anymore and I'm way better off financially than ever before!
Chief wrote...
That was the first response of this type. I'm glad things are working out so well for you. Enjoy your life for sure.
Chief
Thanks Chief! My wife and I do give, but now it's to the food banks and World vision stuff. It's much more rewarding because you give from your heart and not out of obligation to some nut crackers who needs to make a Mercedes payment!
Chief, your blog is AWESOME!!!!
I use tithing as a guideline, not as an admission fee to heaven.
Taking care of family came before tithing in the Bible. Since God asked us to be good stewards of our finances, we attend the yearly church business meeting to see how tithes and offerings are spent. If something is not right in the books we ask questions.
People who give blindly or say "its God's business where our money goes" are being dishonest with themselves. The truth is they do not want to have to make an honest decision if something is amiss.
It is like loaning your friend a gun, and not inquiring his reasons for needing the weapon. Let's say his wife turns up dead from a gunshot wound the next day. If the police question you as the original gunowner would you say; " I just gave my friend the gun! It wasn't my business to ask what he was going to do with it." (There's your dose of gun talk today, Chief! Ha!)
If you power company gave you an outrageous bill, do you check the meter or do you send them a check and say "As long as the power's on."
No! you get on the horn and ask them to go through the books! Why is it different with a christian org?
Most churches that preach tithing and offering will check the member's giving record if the person requests financial assistance. How come the books only open one way? If the leaderships knows what my family gives, then it is only fair to know where that money is going.
Being a good steward of God's money is NOT blindly giving.
Anon wrote...
It's much more rewarding because you give from your heart and not out of obligation
Chief wrote...
I don't know for certain, but based on the Gospels that kind of sounds like what Jesus conveying when he spoke of the good Samaritan. Giving from the heart ya know. Just my take. Wow, I'm happy for you guys. I would imagine that kind of giving is pretty rewarding.
Respectfully,
Chief
Anon-a-non wrote...
Being a good steward of God's money is NOT blindly giving.
Chief wrote...
That's certainly a safe approach. Nothing wrong with a little wisdom in my opinion.
I'm really enjoying all these comments. Great view all the way around. In fact I really like the way this thread is going. I may have to stick to this approach. It seems much more productive.
Chief
Anon 3 wrote...
NTCC did not understand that I am a bondservant of Jesus Christ and I didn't work for them. I will answer to Christ and Christ alone for what I did with everything he blessed me with and my stewardship is not limited to money.
Chief wrote...
Wow, I read your entire message about Abraham and such. Real interesting take. I had to really think about what direction you were taking with that response. I certainly see your point. It's obvious that you are comfortable with your choices and your relationship with God and that gives us peace and that matters. I like peace in my life. Real good comment. Lots of different view here.
I'm learning a lot from this thread, I'll tell you that.
Chief
ANON said you'd have 15,000,000 if everyone paid tithe according to the numbers. This is true and it's why the church should be neck deep in taking care of widows, children, and whomever is a member that needs a helping hand. Maybe you are growing and need a bigger, better building. Maybe you want to sponsor mission trips.
I totally disagree with a philosophy that since we have 15 million why shouldn't I just sit back. If everyone paid tithe or gave generously I think the church would be on solid ground. I believe studies show that around 10% give 90% of the money to the church.
What happens if you don't pay tithe/give generously? Not sure, but I think it's tied to commitment to some degree.
Chief, love the thread!
Anonymous said...
What happens if you don't pay tithe/give generously? Not sure, but I think it's tied to commitment to some degree.
Chief said...
That was a pretty sensible answer. It's good to, "not be sure". That's better than saying your sure only to get proven wrong. I'm still waiting but I haven't posted my anonymous reply to my own question yet. Sooner or later I will. Of course I have my thoughts on my own question. Appreciate the reply and the compliment. Thanks.
Chief
Anon said...
I totally disagree with a philosophy that since we have 15 million why shouldn't I just sit back. If everyone paid tithe or gave generously I think the church would be on solid ground. I believe studies show that around 10% give 90% of the money to the church.
Anon-Anon said...
In the NTCC those numbers are reversed. About 90% pay tithe and the 10% that don't will be very uncomfortable if they plan on hanging around long. 15 million a year is a lot to give an organization that is unaccountable and shows no transparency.
I wasn't referring to NTCC, just the subject of Tithing.
I believe you to be correct with the numbers being reversed. However in a good church with good givers there should be several programs that are tended to.
I heard a pastor say that they purchased farm land for the church members if the world suffered a depression. The Pastor said that those that have given would be the first to receive as they've shown commitment. I can't disagree with that logic as I'm opposed to people getting freebees from any entity. You don't give then don't think you qualify for the program under Widows, the elderly, the sick and on and on.
I think if you have given for years and decide to take a year off to better your debt situation I wouldn't fault you for that as debt is definitely a form of passive slavery.
Anyways good thread!
I feel every "Member" should feel the desire to improve his/her church through giving. If you feel no desire to give what's that say about the service? The Pastor? Whatever else...
What happens if you don't pay/give? What happens if you don't go to church? What happens if you don't stop drugs???
It's all tied to a testimony. Hopefully it's one that lends proof that you are a Christian.
Take care
deep question,
What would happen? I guess you'd be under the grace of Jesus for not tithing/giving but it would be so simple to just give when you can so when you can't it's more understandable.
If I'm reading your question right then what happens if I just refuse to pay anything from here on out... That's not a place I'd want to be in. I'd pay cheerfully so long as things are done properly.
Sorry answer, but it's the best one I got.
I donate directly to the organizations so that I know precisely how my money is being used. Yes, it is very rewarding. It is Christianity in action.
Anonymous said...
If I'm reading your question right then what happens if I just refuse to pay anything from here on out... That's not a place I'd want to be in. I'd pay cheerfully so long as things are done properly.
Chief said...
I understand your point. The word pay suggests that tithing is like a mandatory bill but of course much of the church world feels that way. Some don't. I guess what I was asking was, will God pronounce judgment on you if your were to stop tithing? Do you think there would be tangible consequences if you deliberately stopped? You made a good point also. You said, "if things were being done properly".
That raises another question that I think is a good question. If things are not being done properly, should you stop giving or as you put it "paying" tithe to that church? Thanks for the answer. Oh, I have another question. You said that's not a place that you'd want to be in. I guess that would imply that you'd feel that you were wrong if you got to that place? Am I interpreting what you wrote correctly? Anyway, again, thanks for the answer. There are a lot of different responses here and certainly there is merit to them all, naturally to include yours for sure the way I see it.
Chief
Anon said...
Sorry answer, but it's the best one I got.
Chief said...
I kind of missed that last part. No it wasn't a sorry answer. I'm sure of that. It was a good one. I mean that. Wasn't sorry at all.
Chief
Anonymous like number 9 wrote...
If you feel no desire to give what's that say about the service? The Pastor? Whatever else...
Chief said...
Now I really like that answer. You nailed it. If you had no desire to contribute at all, that would say a lot about the service, Pastor or church. I certainly wouldn't give to a group or organization I didn't trust or have confidence in. Man I liked that answer because I like logic and common sense, and that answer was full of both. Peace.
Chief
Let me tell you what I've concluded so far, (for what it's worth). And first, whoever is interested in doing so, please keep answering. I'm enjoying this thread to the max. No drama which unfortunately I'm the cause of too often. So here is what I've concluded so far.
There are clearly some who believe in "giving" but not in the form of tithing 10% it seems. Some believe in it and simply don't believe that stopping is an option so consequently they really find it hard to answer the question quite naturally. However there is one commonality among most answers. People feel that if they are going to give or pay (so to speak), it needs to be to a legit and good trustworthy cause be it a charity or a church. Pretty much, I found that to be a resounding theme in most answers.
Here is the cool part. I genuinely agree with that whether I feel there would be consequences for stopping with tithing or not. I think most of us can agree that if you are going to give, it needs to be to a verifiable and legitimate cause. At least thats what I've gathered so far. Anyway, on with the answers.
Chief
I don't think that anything would happen if you stopped. I actually think you would have more money if you stopped. I do believe in giving but to charitable causes where there is a definite need. Not just giving so that a bigger church building can be built that will require even more giving for upkeep. It can be a never ending cycle.
I need a bigger church building, so now we need to fill the seats and now we have more people so we need another larger building and more money from all the people for upkeep for the larger building. Oh, 30 people just left so now the people who remain need to give extra to spread the cost of the upkeep so we can keep this big building. And on and on it goes.
I also don't believe in giving to make a Pastor rich, tithe or not. I don't see examples of that happening in the Bible. Paul had a job so why can't other Pastors do the same? It is my responsibility to provide for my family, not make some Pastor rich which is what happens in most cases if the Pastor owns the church and he or she is getting tithes from everyone. They get rich. That doesn't happen in the ntcc because the Kekels are the only ones who own anything which is why they are the only ones getting rich. Thats all the more reason nothing would happen to you if you stopped paying tithe to the ntcc.
No, I don't think anything would happen if you just stopped paying tithe. You would probably have more money than you did while you were paying tithe. At least that has been my experience.
NTCC's style of tithe extortion is not the only style out there. I enjoy being generous, but I could not give money to these people.
The seeker-driven model for 'church' is the most expensive and financially wasteful church model ever invented by man (its not the Biblical model). It costs 10's of millions of dollars each year to dress the stage, pay for cameras, cameramen, lights, smoke machines, musicians, production crew, etc. That's why so many of these churches entertainment venues with a thin Christian-ish veneer end up doing things like this...
What would happen if I stopped paying tithes? The same thing that happened in the early church, after Jesus rose from the dead and the rest of the law was fulfilled. The early church stopped offering sacrifices, stopped requiring circumcision, and stopped paying tithe. What happened to them? Souls were added daily and God blessed the church abundantly. A new model of giving was introduced. Those who had in abundance gave so that those who didn't have anything didn't lack anything. Greedy Pharisees and hypocrites were separated from the true Christians and true apostles like Paul got jobs as tent makers, so that they wouldn't have to burden the early church with a bunch of unnecessary financial problems. So to answer your question, I don't pay tithe. If I did, there would be no need for grace. There would be no need for the blood of Christ to be shed. If you are going to keep parts of the law, you might as well keep the whole thing, because the law does nothing for you unless you keep it in it's entirety. There is a huge difference between giving cheerfully and paying tithe. One is an offering and one is a law that has no supporting scripture.
I have a feeling that those that give the most do the most for their churchs... IE volunteer, take up offerings, teach Sunday school and conversely those who give nothing watch football every Sunday.
Not saying all but I bet there is an obvious trend.
Anonymous: I have a feeling that those that give the most do the most for their churchs... IE volunteer, take up offerings, teach Sunday school and conversely those who give nothing watch football every Sunday.
That's relative. Take up offerings? In the ntcc all that means is the Kekels have a nicer car, spoil their kid more than yours will ever be, and buy more extravagant furniture to replace their perfectly good already extravagant furniture. In the ntcc thats not doing something. Thats being part of the problem not the solution. Teaching Sunday school? In the ntcc all that means is that you would be scrutinized and micro managed by some control freak in most cases.
I might agree with your stance as long as you are in a church other than the ntcc and in the majority of other churches, the offering is also used to support someones extravagant lifestyle. In the United States, according to surveys, it's commonly reported that Pastors get rich. I don't and won't support that occurrence at all. I'd rather pay tithe to my children. They can use my 10% more than the Kekel boy.
I just answered Chiefs question. Since I stopped, nothing has happened to me from not paying tithe. My family has more money now, thats all thats happened. My kid has savings. I have savings. I have nice cars. I have a nice house. I'm no longer living from paycheck to paycheck. Keeping that 10% has made a huge difference and its improved my financial stability tremendously. No comparison at all.
Now I'm rich like those rich Pastors. Thats what happens when you pay yourself that 10% for years and not someone else. I can only imagine how rich I would be if at the same time, a bunch of other people paid me their 10%. Its no wonder the Kekels are loaded.
Anonymous 9 said...
Those who had in abundance gave so that those who didn't have anything didn't lack anything.
Chief said...
Wow, there is a lot here since I checked last. I will respond to comments as a get a chance. The portion I quoted is a view that I also respect. It's Bible. What more needs to be said. Valid points made throughout your comment. The answers now are taking a different twist. Good stuff. It's all been good. Things are staying pretty civil throughout this thread which I also like. It makes for a good discussion and varying points of view with little or no conflict.
"They can use my 10% more than the Kekel boy."
Oh don't get me started on that little con man in training!!!
I agree 100% that NTCC shouldn't get a dime of anything period.
My point is when you go to a church and you see the greeters, the Choir members, the teachers, the behind the scenes volunteers you are probably going to find the most faithful givers. I totally get your point though!!!
I'm just waiting for the stories how the 25 year old "Administrator/Board Member" is belittling students and getting away with whatever he wants to do. OH CRAP I'VE STARTED IT... I'll stop now.
No, I wont stop now!
I know he's 20 something now and that makes him an adult who understands how he is able to go through college and on who's dime. He knows of the financial strain on families because he's seen parking lots full of junkers. The kid is no idiot and will assume the thrown eventually. I'd give up my immortal soul to ensure that family ends up in their rightful place.
Sorry... Had to vent...
My bad.
Anon wrote...
I'm just waiting for the stories how the 25 year old "Administrator/Board Member" is belittling students and getting away with whatever he wants to do. OH CRAP I'VE STARTED IT... I'll stop now.
Chief asked...
This actually isn't the right thread to pursue this but I have a question. Is GK up in Graham training to be an administrator of some sort? Do you know this to be the case for sure. Be careful what you write and more specifically the phrases you use. I'm not talking about the word crap either. I don't have a problem with that word. I can be somewhat crass occasionally also.
The reason I say be careful is if you use words or phrases that are somewhat unique to your style of speaking, and you are still in the NTCC, the NTCC leadership WILL figure out who you are and you will be black listed. Just some friendly advise.
Chief
My bad wrote...
Sorry... Had to vent..
Chief respectfully wrote...
I feel your pain my friend. I'm with you. I totally understand. Trust me. Your passion is on clear display through your words. I can get pretty passionate on these subjects as well. I hate what the NTCC stands for and the fact the the NTCC is ABSOLUTELY a family affair / family business. Oh yeah. I haven't placed much blame on GK YET, but if he is promoted to some sort of official position within the NTCC, I will lump him in the same boat as the rest of them. He's basically a millionaire right now I'm sure. It's just been about 7 years since he's directly got any of my money.
He sure got $20.000 a year to attend a private academy while living the life of a prince. I don't blame him for that. He had no control who gave birth to him or who raised him. And I'm also going to be real. If Mike and Tanya were my parents, do you think I would have refused the good life? Of course not. Being real and true to yourself is important in life.
I don't blame GK one bit but if he starts serving in an official position within the NTCC, then whether I blame him or not, he's just become part of the problem which oppresses and steals from the GI's who I love. In that regard I hate the NTCC just like Jesus "HATED" the deeds of the Nicolaitans.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Jesus hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans and I hate the deeds of the NTCC leadership. I HATE their deeds. See the passion? I'm with ya.
Chief
Chief said
" And I'm also going to be real. If Mike and Tanya were my parents, do you think I would have refused the good life?"
Would I tell my parents to live in a trailor? No.
Would I dare ask my parents to play sports having grown up listening to Grandpa talk about such evil things? Not a chance.
Grant is smart, when he was in high school playing sports he KNEW the position of the church he followed. Someone put in his head that he was above the crap everyone else had to deal with and didn't question it? I doubt that very much. How could he go to that church and look people in the face? HE KNEW.
He's a part of the Weasel family. If he's not already, he'll be a millionaire because he will be a weasel through and through!
PISS OFF KEKEL
Sorry for getting off topic...
Venting again...
Anonymous said...
Grant is smart, when he was in high school playing sports he KNEW the position of the church he followed.
Chief said...
And? So did my daughter. She grew up in the church also but she was a kid and kids want to have fun. She would have done whatever I would have allowed to include play sports it that would have been an option. As soon as we left the church, our rules changed. She was allowed to do certain things that Grant did. While we were in the church she would have done what we allowed her to do also. So you can't blame Grant. You got to get off that because it's not right. Kids want to have fun and they are going to have as much fun as you allow them to have, church or no church. I blame Davis and to a lesser extent Kekel.
Kekel openly on the internet, in writing said he never agreed with that stuff so Davis obviously knew that. Davis was the hypocrite for allowing Kekel to remain in the position he was in. Davis didn't hold his own family to the same standards that he held the rest of us and that's the truth of the matter. Don't call Grant a hypocrite call me one because if I was in Grants shoes, I'm real enough to admit that I would have taken advantage of the same fun activities that he did because my parents allowed it. I had a lot of fun when I was a kid and I would have done the same thing if I was in the NTCC and my parents let me.
So do me a favor, don't call Grant a hypocrite, call me one, because I certainly would have been one when I was a kid. I can live with that and it won't bother me a bit and you'd be right. I would have said, screw the church, rules or no rules, I want to have fun.
Chief
I don't know Grant, but I imagine all he wants to do is live his life. Sure, he had a privileged upbringing, especially compared to our kids'. But like Chief says, that's not his fault. So far as I know, there is no evidence that Grant is being groomed for NTCC leadership, and it's unlikely that such a role is included in whatever ambitions he may have. His fortunes are already made. He doesn't have to soil his hands with being a corrupt church leader, so why would he? Based on what he posts online, he's more interested in shredding on guitars than on people (his tastes aren't half bad, either). Some resent the fact that he was given special treatment, but it's not like he was the one responsible for that.
Until he demonstrates any personal malfeasance, I don't have a trace of hostility toward Grant, and I think it's unfortunate that he's a target of criticism just because he has despicable parents. The legitimate targets are a generation or two removed from him.
I'm not disagreeing with Chief or Vic on the fact that if any of us were put in Grants shoes, or raised the way he was, that we wouldn't have turned out the same way Grant did or enjoyed our child hood more than everyone else's kids were allowed to.
I don't think that's the point that people are making. I think they are mad that while they watched children being brought up under strict guidelines they also watched their tithe dollars being spent on Grant. They have watched the privileged of the ntcc get everything handed to them on a silver platter for decades since Tanya was a child and they watch Kekel rise through the ranks of privilege for years and years.
I know where Chief and Vic are coming from on this. Is it Grants fault? Would not any other child turn out the same way if raised under similar circumstances? I would say probably. I think people hate Grant for the same reason they hate Kekel. Kekel never did much of anything to obtain his position. He married into royalty and the ntcc is a family business.
I think folks are mad at Grant because they feel that some day he will return as a prodigal son and will be handed the ntcc cult kingdom on a silver platter. That would be a big temptation for Grant also. Imagine, inheriting millions in OPM without having to do anything. He has been given all of the advantages in life that many of us never had to succeed, and many of those dollars came from us. Like Vic said, he might never have to get his hands dirty, and I'm sure he'll never have to suffer poverty, but success might not be handed to him in the real world like it would in the ntcc on a silver platter. It might be a temptation for Grant to 'take the easy way out' and become a cult leader like his father before him.
At any rate, what I am saying is that I understand why people feel the way they do about Grant. Up to this point, Grant is a product of his up bringing. Unfortunately he was raised by some of the worse examples of character in the ntcc. The Kekels really don't care about people, other than their own. Will that upbringing influence his life enough for him to become like his parents? That has yet to be seen, and up to this point he is what he was raised to be. My opinion is therefore nuetral at this point. If he stays out of the ntcc, or if by some miraculous event occurs in his life that makes him acknowledge the wrong and take extreme measures to correct things within the ntcc, I might have respect for him, but I highly doubt that will be the case. I'm very skeptical about Grant and I hate that so many good people were used to make his road smooth in the ntcc.
DnA said...
I think they are mad that while they watched children being brought up under strict guidelines they also watched their tithe dollars being spent on Grant. They have watched the privileged of the ntcc get everything handed to them on a silver platter for decades since Tanya was a child and they watch Kekel rise through the ranks of privilege for years and years.
Chief said...
And I can't stand that either. I hate the fact the my kid was deprived of the same fun activities that Grant was freely allowed to participate in because of what Davis and his abusive pastors preached. I hate that my money was used so Grant could attend a $20,000 a year grade school for crying out loud. I've made mention of that probably more than any 10 people put together. But here my friends is the difference and this is what Vic and I are both saying. I don't blame Grant for any of that. I blame his sorry grandpa and his spoiled mama and his manipulative dad. I blame Davis more than any of them, then Mike and Tanya Kekel secondly. I don't blame Grant.
Again, I hate that my money will no doubt result in him become a millionaire which he may already be but again, I don't blame him for that. I just got to live with it and recognize it for what it is. He was born luckier than the rest of all NTCC children by a million miles and it's not his fault that he was born.
Chief
Back to the subject of tithing, I am amazed at the number of people who believe in paying tithe with no supporting scripture. Most of the people who have commented in support of tithe, have not been able to support their beliefs with any scriptural reference. They'll talk about people doing nothing for the work of God and watching football on Sunday as if what they are doing is getting them any closer to heaven.
False doctrines and doctrines of devils are doctrines that are not supported in God's word. The ntcc and other groups have taken a doctrine that never existed and made it believable so that 90% of today's lost believers can be used to make a select few rich. Think about it, for just a minute. Tithe doctrine never even existed in the form of 10% cash in the Old Testament. Now all the sudden, people have taken the model of 10%, changed it from agricultural gifts going to the Levites who had no inheritance or land, to giving 10% cash every payday before deductions to a preacher. This doctrine just sprung up out of nowhere and now we have a whole bunch of brain washed suckers in this world that buy into it without 1, one, ONE, scripture anywhere to support it. Has there ever been such an obvious scam in the history of the church? The Catholics selling indulgences perhaps? As long as there is money to be made there will be prosperity preachers, tithe or hell preachers, and that is why people hate the church. It's not the people who watch football on Sunday that cause people to talk bad about the church, it's the ones like Kekel who live in mansions and drive around in expensive Sports cars, while most of the church members struggle to make ends meet. It's the attitude that is projected against all who disagree with tithing. You didn't have a problem giving your money to the devil, so why should you have a problem giving it to God. Giving it to God would be more like giving it to the people of God, not some con artist that is dripping with wealth and spewing out sermons of hatred while condemning people to hell because they can't afford to support their families on 90% of their income. Kekel believes that 10% or your money belongs to him, with no supporting scripture. Kekel believes the doctrine of tithe because he profits from it. That's it. It works for him. Nothing more, nothing less.
Don wrote...
I am amazed at the number of people who believe in paying tithe with no supporting scripture.
Chief wrote...
I am also, but I understand because I was one of those people for so long. We certainly have more access to more information now and that's the main cause for my amazement. What happened to most of us was, once we figured out that the NTCC leadership is more crooked than the front end of a car in a head on collision, we started objectively taking a much closer look at everything they taught including the doctrine of tithing.
And that's really all you have to do to learn the real truth. Once you do that, it becomes very clear. Either way, I've enjoyed this thread. It seems to have stalled out. No surprise.
Chief
Anon said ..."LIFE IS GOOD BEING FREE FROM NTCC!!"
Ahh, yes life is good being outside of the Ntcc. We spent the day in the foothills of Mt. Rainier yesterday shooting all those guns that we love so much! It was an absolutely gorgeous day and we had a shoot-em up, bang, bang of a time! Got to shoot my new Glock model 43 9mm. What a Gun! bought it for conceal carry. It's bulls-eye accurate right of the box. But I must say that my Sig Saurer 1911 and my Kahr model P45 both in .45 acp are my favorite guns to shoot. Real nail drivers. We shot off about 2000 rds. Man that's a lot of TITHE that Kekel the Schmekel won't be getting! Ha Ha! Man, Michael Riley really's going to be fired up now!
I said all that because I wonder how many NTCC'ers had to spend that beautiful day out "soulwinng" for Pebbles and Bam-Bam! Especially while Pebbles was shopping on line while the minions were out doing their bidding.
Going out to enjoy another beautiful day.
LIFE IS GOOD OUTSIDE OF THE NTCC!
MDR
MDR said:
I wonder how many NTCC'ers had to spend that beautiful day out "soulwinng" for Pebbles and Bam-Bam!
DNA said:
Keep em busy, soul winning so they thing they are doing God's work. Soul winning is one of the biggest scams in the ntcc. It's not soul winning unless you are winning them over to something that is better than they already have. The reason 99% of the people that get invited out don't end up going is because they can recognize a scam when they see one. First of all, they get approached by someone in a white shirt or wing tips, or wearing clothing that looks like it was purchased in Grandma's attic sale, most people with any sense are going to realize something is off from the get go. Jesus sent His disciples to go out and preach the Gospel.
Soul winning in the ntcc is almost as big of a scam as tithing is. Soul winning in the ntcc is just a method to get more tithe paying yes men into the church. The ntcc doesn't trust you like Jesus trusted his disciples. You are only allowed to invite them to church so that the professional con artist can convince them to stay. If you were to be honest with the people that come out to church they would leave before you got your hooks in them. If you were to say, "I'd like to invite you to a church that requires all of it's brainwashed specimens to pay tithes and give in offerings and dress in the most awkward fashion imaginable, while being required to disown all of your friends and family and did I mention you will have to attend 5 church services every week and live in a cult compound? Oh by the way you'll have to ask your new master pastor for permission to do things that you normally were able to do for yourself. Sign me up, I want to go to your church right now. That's why the ntcc is so dead and so many of the members have departed. People are not as stupid as they look. Sooner or later they figure it out and only a handful of people end up staying for decades. The only ones that are left are the ones that refuse to believe that they have been taken for a ride.
What good does it do to win a person to the Lord and than turn them over to some brainwashing nut case in Graham that is going to use them up and throw them out with the garbage when once they have leached everything of value away from their lives. Soul winning is nothing more than an extension of the tithe or hell program. Nobody is being won to God, they are all being convinced to pay tithe.
MDR said...
Got to shoot my new Glock model 43 9mm.
Chief said...
Yeah, that definitely beats going soul snatching and brainwashing for Mike and Tanya. Wasting lead into a target is a better use of time. In fact cleaning out the toilet right before you soil it again is a better use of time.
I tithe. Learned about it in NTCC and have continued tithing since leaving over 5 years ago. I don't think there would be any practical consequence if I withheld my tithe or increased it for that matter.
EG
Anonymous said...
I tithe. Learned about it in NTCC and have continued tithing since leaving over 5 years ago.
Chief said...
That's your prerogative. I just hope the church you are in is using it for something other than for the preacher to get rich. Like maybe the homeless or needy or some good cause.
EG wrote...
I don't think there would be any practical consequence if I withheld my tithe or increased it for that matter.
Chief replied again...
Other than you having more money in the bank if you stopped. Simple calculative reasoning. Don't give your money to someone else, save it, and you'll have a lot more of it. Worked for me. Again, your prerogative.
"The path to darkness is a journey not a light switch"... Grant ain't 10 anymore...
In NTCC the tithe was only a starting point. I gave more like 20% through the 4 offerings per week plus the budget offering. Not to mention the cost of participation in fuel, clothing and opportunity costs. By far the biggest budget buster was the inability to focus on a career choice that paid well. My income has quadrupled since leaving NTCC. I've purchased two homes. My vehicles last longer. The cost to be part of NTCC is too high and unrelated to being a Christian.
EG
No doubt... I could have been investing 400-500 a month during the tech bull markets.
EG wrote...
I gave more like 20% through the 4 offerings per week plus the budget offering.
Chief wrote...
Ain't that the truth. I probably gave more like 40% when you add all the incidental expenses which of course you indicated anyway. The NTCC could soak you like no other. They figured out more ways to get your money. Church pews, to church signs, to song books to gas money running all around the city to frequent maintenance costs on your vehicle because of excessive use and the list goes on and on and on. The NTCC sucks, literally and figuratively. They suck everything out of you in more ways than one.
Groups like the NTCC should be illegal like 25 to life. I'm not kidding.
Chief
What's the happy medium? No tithes, no offerings mean no building, no pastor (yeah he could work but a full time pastor is work enough).
If I'm not giving monetarily to the church then I'm probably not going to church.
Give, don't give, either way it's part of your testimony to some degree.
I think that's were logic comes in. NTCC is abusive, money grabbing manipulators. The Gospel is free but logistics cost money. I believe in supporting the things I care about an do, I like the 10% tithe principle. I wouldn't recommend giving beyond that until your independently wealthy. IMO.
EG
I kept tithing for quite some time after leaving NTCC. It wasn't because I thought it was obligatory, and I distributed it as I saw fit to various charities. Over time I realized I was still sort of trapped in a legalistic mentality, so I quit. No big curses materialized; if anything, life became smoother. At this point I don't accept that any God worth his salt would be nickel and diming the saints to death. If he owns the cattle on a thousand hills, then he's doing just fine. Tithing is just another form of bondage.
"No big curses materialized"
I've done lots of bad things where nothing materialized. I don't look at that as evidence of anything.
Common sense says in order for their to be ministers there has to be giving. Not sure if that means tithe or offerings.
Let the Minister's go to work just like the Apostle Paul and the others. They were not burdensome on the people! Any offerings and or monies that came in were to be distributed to the poor and the widows, not for big buildings and extravagant living by the preachers.
Just saying!
Where do you go to church; a trailer park? Give me a break... If we follow Paul's example to a T chances are we would hate that more than NTCC... I really don't want to preach the gospel to those sick jackwads beheading everyone because I don't care about them. Americanized Christianity is just another religion a few generations away from extinction. I can't even pretend to care either. I don't go to church or give or do any of that crap since leaving the NTCC but I know that "Christians" in this country aren't zealous about their religion.
Just sayin'
Anon wrote...
Give, don't give, either way it's part of your testimony to some degree.
Chief wrote...
That is true. No but's on that one. You made a valid point. I like the way you put that comment. There was common sense involved which I like. I like the comfortable medium part. I believe there can be a comfortable medium and that medium doesn't include making some preacher rich while the church folks live at or below the poverty level. That is definitely not a comfortable medium.
Full time pastor? Now that's kind of relative. The NTCC creates situations which result in everyone having problems which gives the impression that a pastor is needed for guidance constantly. You know how many times I've needed a pastor for guidance in the past 8 years since I left the NTCC. A big ZERO. Financial guidance, ZERO. Decision making guidance, ZERO. Marriage guidance, ZERO. Being in the NTCC results in 99% of those type of problems. I've talked to people about God and spirituality and the Bible but I didn't "need" a pastor and certainly not an NTCC pastor because their advise is always skewed based on their non-biblical believes.
"Pastor, should my wife work"? They'll say no and everyone of them is biblically dead wrong.
So full time? Work on a job and take calls when you get home or on the weekend. Nothing will be life or death outside those hours and if it is, go to the hospital. The pastor couldn't help you anyway in a life or death situation. If you are a responsible adult, you should be able to make most decisions on your own. Who gave Davis guidance on a daily bases? It certainly wasn't the Lord and he didn't have a pastor. He may have been a crook but he took care of himself without being attached to some pastor by a life line. The need to be a full time pastor is over rated. At least half the US population if not more doesn't even attend church and they make it through life just fine and function quite effectively. For my purposes, a pastor would serve the purpose of providing me spiritual guidance when I needed it as long as the pastor was TRULY a spiritual person. Who in the NTCC falls in that category? None in my opinion. The brand new converts are more spiritual than the pastors in the NTCC and I truly believe that. They may not know much about the Bible but what the pastors know is in large part misinterpreted anyway. So who is leading who? Blind leading the blind baby.
Chief
Just sayin wrote...
Where do you go to church; a trailer park? Give me a break... If we follow Paul's example to a T chances are we would hate that more than NTCC...
Chief wrote...
I don't know who you are Just sayin but I like the way you think. You actually think which is a whole lot more than a whole lot of people in the NTCC. They don't think, they just BLINDLY follow guys like Kekel. I know that because if you thought, you certainly wouldn't follow Kekel.
I have an answer to your question, which I like which is why I quoted it. The answer is actually found in the scriptures.
1 Cor 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
Chief said...
Imagine that. Novel concept. Even though the NTCC is a scam perpetuated by con artists, having church in the serviceman's home wasn't bad at all. It worked. So you ask, "what about growth? What about it? Doesn't more than one person have a home? Yeah, I know, not in the NTCC because most NTCCers are broke because of shelling out so much money for all these church buildings and large houses for the Davis and Kekel estates. Stop giving half your money to the church, and get ahead financially and there would be a whole bunch of homes to have church in. Hey, a church building is fine but not at the expense of everyone's financial stability.
"It's ONLY 10% Chief". Yeah right? Since when was it only 10% in the NTCC and we've seen what happens when one guys gets 10% from everyone. Mansions, really nice cars, RV's, $20,000 annual grade school tuition costs, fancy furniture, etc, etc, etc. Back yard basket ball courts, etc.
These pastors only care about a church building so that they can get more people and get more money. It's a pyramid scheme. For that matter, you could have church outside, and if the weather didn't permit, postpone it till it did. And if the pastor really cares that much, let him buy the building. It's going to belong to him when all is said and done anyway, again and of course unless you are in the NTCC and then it all belongs to the Kekels. "No it doesn't Chief". Yes it does, who do you think has control of it. That's why the NTCC could donate $300,000 of property to the Kekels as a gift. It may be in the "churches" name but who do you think controls it? Who does the rent go to. Who controls the money if the building is sold?
It's not rocket science. The Kekel's have control of all the buildings and everyone pays them rent on those buildings.
Building shmilding. If I pay for a building it's going to be """"MY"""" building. I'm not paying for Kekel's or anyone else's building. Not any more. Those days are over.
""No big curses materialized"
I've done lots of bad things where nothing materialized. I don't look at that as evidence of anything.
Common sense says in order for their to be ministers there has to be giving. Not sure if that means tithe or offerings."
Well, it's evidence that the NTCC was wrong in their predictions about what happens to "God Robbers."
Whether there has to be giving depends on what model we follow. If we want buildings, pews, sound systems, professional preachers, and the other accouterments of modern church life, then yes, the saints will have to cough it up. But none of those things are required in the bible, and most of them are just accretions that have more to do with culture than theology. Better to keep your wallet in your pocket than fund a decadent system that has departed far from the simplicity which is in Christ (and I'm not just talking about NTCC here, either). If you want to put your money to work for God, find some poor souls and help them out. There is no need to filter cash through any institutional middlemen; take direct action.
Anon wrote...
Whether there has to be giving depends on what model we follow. If we want buildings, pews, sound systems, professional preachers, and the other accouterments of modern church life, then yes, the saints will have to cough it up. But none of those things are required in the bible.
Chief said...
Well put, well put, well put. Exactly my sentiments. I'm not funding that garbage. I know where it got me the last time I did. Learning of the Kekels sending their kids through a $20,000 A YEAR private academy which (at the time) I could have only sent my kid to in my dreams. NOT HAPPENING.
Pews? I could care less if they have to sit on the ground. A church sign? I could care less if the people have to use a GPS to find the stinking place. A sound system? I could care less if the pastor loses his dog gone voice trying to get everyone to hear him? A BUILDING? I could care less if the preacher freezes from hypothermia in the middle of the winter preaching outside before I fund another real estate empire that even resembles the NTCCs.
Whether there has to be giving depends on what model we follow. If we want buildings, pews, sound systems, professional preachers, and the other accouterments of modern church life, then yes, the saints will have to cough it up. But none of those things are required in the bible.
Chief said...
Well put, well put, well put. Exactly my sentiments. I'm not funding that garbage. I know where it got me the last time I did. Learning of the Kekels sending their kid through a $20,000 A YEAR private academy playing basketball and football which (at the time) I could have only sent my kid to in my dreams while being accused of heresy by some brainwashed NTCC pastor. NOT HAPPENING.
Pews? I could care less if they have to sit on the ground. A church sign? I could care less if the people have to use a GPS to find the stinking place. A sound system? I could care less if the pastor loses his dog gone voice trying to get everyone to hear him? A BUILDING? For all I care, the preacher could find himself freezing from hypothermia in the middle of the winter preaching outside before I fund another real estate empire that even remotely resembles the NTCCs.
I don't know how I can make myself anymore clear. There is not even ONE, I said ONE, AGAIN ONE, example in the New Testament of some preacher getting rich off an entire congregation of tithe payers or even ONE example of an entire church getting soaked because of some church leader's insatiable desire to purchase real estate and rent it out to his pastors and congregates.
Any NTCCer or anyone else for that matter: Show me one example of this taking place in the New Testament Bible and I'll shut down this blog today and send you $100 a month in the mail for the rest of your life.
The Chief Challenge
Show me where Paul, John, Peter or James gets rich from each person in their entire congregation giving them 10% of their "GROSS" income????
NTCC is a pyramid scheme. The average preacher there is broke and exploited. Normal churches with local board governance pay a pastor a comfortable salary commensurate with church size, etc. We are talking middle class. Not poverty like an NTCC preacher or a 1% like the NTCC royalty.
EG
Chief,
thanks for answering my questions even though I might have come across as a hot head.
Just sayin
Chief,
I understand where you are coming from. Lets be real though, the average preacher is choosing between Alpo and Ramen for dinner. Or one or two ply ( or drip dry) for toilet paper.
I think saying " well in Paul's day" ...! Well in Paul's day women wore hair coverings, in Paul's day Leo the lion was picking his teeth with Christian bones. One of the reasons the churches were in houses etc, because of persecution.
I dont think pastors should be getting rich of their congregation, but they shouldn't be getting SNAP benefits either.
I don't see anything wrong with being a fulltime pastor, if your congregation needs it. If I can't call you without getting attitude you have no business being a pastor.
Anon wrote...
I don't think pastors should be getting rich of their congregation, but they shouldn't be getting SNAP benefits either.
I don't see anything wrong with being a full time pastor, if your congregation needs it. If I can't call you without getting attitude you have no business being a pastor.
Chief wrote...
Hey, Anon. How are you? Thanks for responding to my statements. Here's where I'm at concerning the first sentence that I quoted above. We both agree that pastors shouldn't be getting rich, certainly not off their congregation. If they have another job like computer analyst or something and they invest their money and get wealthy well then good for them. I'm not going to make them wealthy and here is why and bear with me and consider what I'm saying.
What is a pastor? Likely and at best, some self appointed dude or gal who "thinks" or want's to think that God has appointed them to oversee the spiritual wellness of Christians. Right? At worse, a straight up con artist which clearly exists all through out America and the rest of the world for that matter. Having said that, who is to say which pastor is legitimately God appointed and who ain't? I don't believe even one current NTCC pastor has been appointed by God and if he actually was, (which I very seriously doubt), he is currently misguided and deceived and deceiving others, knowingly or not; at best.
So what do we have in most cases? A perpetrator wannabe at best if he or she doesn't actually know they are a perpetrator. If they do know, like Davis, Olson and Kekel, then you have a con artist.
Well I don't consider that a job that even justifies compensation. I can't just walk into NASA and start putting rockets together just because I want to and expect to get paid. Who verifies that a "Pastor" is genuinely qualified and legitimately appointed by God? Let's be real, NO ONE.
You have to trust that your Pastor is a "REAL" Godly dude or gal, but there really is no way of knowing one way or the other and unfortunately I learned that the hard way in the NTCC. Davis was not a Godly man at all and neither is Kekel, Olson, Kinson, Jones or any of the rest of the NTCC pastors. Based on some of the doctrines they teach alone, at best they are all deceived. Their harsh treatment of people alone qualifies them as totally ungodly.
Continued below....
Now to your second sentence that I quoted...
Full time pastor if the congregation, "NEEDS" it. The key word there is "NEED". Well in the NTCC, the NTCC leadership creates the NEED. They put you through all kinds of psychological manipulation, financial strain, pit you against your family, (wife, kids, parents, etc). The NTCC's wacky ways create that need. If I'm in financial trouble, a pastor and certainly an NTCC pastor is the LAST person I need to consult because they have an agenda; tithes, pledges and offerings first and everything else second. Well in the real world that's bogus.
If I'm having marriage problems an NTCC pastor is the wrong person to go to also because the NTCC causes marriage problems. So here is my point... I, being Chief, am the wrong person to suggest that the average person even "needs" a pastor for anything other than guidance on the bible and you better do plenty of research for yourself after they give you the guidance because certainly in the case of the NTCC, they guidance they give you is more often than not, dead wrong. At least this rule applies where finances, women, marriage, relationships, dress and attire, church attendance, school attendance, sport attendance, friendships, family involvement and relationships, employment opportunities and the list goes on and on.
Too many pastors will lead you in the wrong direction, and my life is proof certainly where involvement with the NTCC and their pastors are concerned. Too many pastors are over superstitious kooks who I personally have no "NEED" for.
"How are you Sir". "Oh I'm blessed and highly favored". "Praise God" "God bless you brother, I'm praying for you". Bunch of overly spiritual rhetoric hogwash.
It's not every day I "need" advise from a pastor. Maybe sometimes but if I need that much advise, maybe I need to get a class on simply being a "responsible adult" from someone other than a pastor. If you ask advise from ten different pastors, all of them will give you a different answer unless of course you ask any NTCC pastor about finances. They will all give you the same answer. "Pay your tithe, give in the offerings, trust the Lord and he will open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it".
And ten years later; Kekel will still be rich and you'll still be broke looking for financial advise from your NTCC pastor. 999 times out of 1000, in the NTCC, that's a fact.
This is old info but here goes... Many tithers have never had any such overflow promised to Levite priests in Malachi. The Windows of heaven meant clouds and rain for their crops and livestock, which is all that was tithed on. Those Levites who took turns serving the temple were guilty of not bringing their tithes. Also my question for modern day tithes, if the church is the "storehouse" why can't parishioners draw from that piggy bank, when in need? That seems to be the proper NT model.
And Chief, you are correct, most if not all advice from NTCC pastors, I found to be useless. They have NO valuable counseling prowess. Manipulation and mind control techniques from the pulpit, did NO good. We all had to repress the truest impressions of the Spirit, who kept warning us that RW was in error on multiple points. He was like the old prophet Eli who lost contact with God, but kept going anyway. The young Samuels of our day are hearing God speak, and Eli is falling off the wall like Humpty Dumpty.
I like the point of drawing from the storehouse... NTCC was tight with its coffers.
I wonder what they actually believe about god, the people they are supposed to serve, just everything? What is going through their minds at night when they go to sleep? Do they know the suffering going on in the marriages they've arranged? I almost could care less about the whole money aspect at this point. What about the damage?
Brother D. said:
"The young Samuels of our day are hearing God speak, and Eli is falling off the wall like Humpty Dumpty."
DNA said:
Good one, Bro. D, and completely true. It seems like too often after they fall that everyone tries to piece them back together again but they can't. The damage has been done and the broken pieces are every where. Eli and Davis were a lot like Humpty. They fell asleep on the wall and broke into a zillion pieces. Too many people know what they stood for and who they failed to stand for. Even though all of RWD's loyal subjects tried to make excuses for him, the facts were still made public. The ntcc used the 2 or 3 witness model when it came to certain things that benefited them, but many times if one witness had the right details, they would get a confession and deal with the transgressors of the laws of Davis. There have been dozens of witnesses that have come on the blogs and testified that Davis is a serial adulterer, child molester, physical abuser, Nepotistic, Narcissistic con artist. That's what he is and the people he has abused have come forward and pushed him off the wall. That can't be changed. It can be denied, it can be glossed over and people can pretend that nothing ever happened, but if you look at all of the people from the early 70's until RW's death that have come forward, they have consistently verified these things have indeed happened and every single one of us knows for a fact that Davis made an incredible fortune off of his so called ministry.
Brother D wrote...
And Chief, you are correct, most if not all advice from NTCC pastors, I found to be useless.
Chief wrote...
True enough but here's where the psychologically manipulative brainwashing comes in. At the time; I didn't find it useless. I see that it is now but at at the time I didn't. And that's how so many people in the NTCC get thoroughly messed up and messed over.
They do there best in an attempt to adhere to that nonsense, and wind up broke, broken marriages, broken hearts, broken relationships with loved ones and worst of all, broken children and that's what I detest most about the NTCC. The outright trauma and pure nonsense the children have to endure; unless of course your name was G. Kekel who lived the life of a royal Prince.
Chief
NTCC is nothing more than "ABC." Attendance, Buildings, and Cash!
I have visited a lot of churches since leaving the Ntcc and I have found that most of them are driven by the desire for cash.
We frequented one church soon after leaving the Ntcc and the minister pulled out a Gold coin, that had been given to him on his birthday by his wife, and began telling us about a lady that had given a very large sum of money to the church in the form of gold coins. He then takes the gold coin, holds it up in the air, and exhorts us to give like that lady had given. Here's the clincher, he then takes his gold coin and puts it back in his pocket and calls for the ushers to pass the plates. A guest, that we had brought, yells out very loudly, "Put it in the plate!" The preacher just ignored him and never did put that coin in the plate. We quit going to that church after that incident.
We then began frequenting another church and during one of the offerings the preacher looked like he was a little frustrated about what he was "not" seeing during the collection and got up and said "Some of you just need to drink the kool-aid!" My wife turned to me and said, "I'm not drinking anymore Kool-aid!" We got up and walked out and never went back.
So we found yet another church that we thought was going to be the place to be. In the fourth service that we attended, the preacher used the whole service to talk about "making margin in our lives!" Guess what the margin was? All about money baby! Margin... the dude didn't even know our names, but that didn't matter cause he saw us as a dollar sign and nothing more.
I said all that to say, the Church World SUCKS!
Just sayin'
Anon said..."the preacher looked like he was a little frustrated about what he was "not" seeing during the collection and got up and said "Some of you just need to drink the kool-aid!"
Probably the reason the preacher was/is frustrated is because their in debt up to their eyeballs.
As you stated, "ABC." They don't have time to care about people because they need money, money, money to fund their lavish lifestyles.
Phony Bologna!
Just sayin wrote...
I said all that to say, the Church World SUCKS!
Chief wrote...
Yes it does. My experiences are very similar. Three other churches, same kind of nonsense. The church world does suck. Later.
Agreed.
We've had to work hard to find churches since leaving NTCC. I was actually a treasurer for one for a few years, a Nazarene church. It was a positive experience of what a healthy structure can look like. Not perfect but healthy by our cultural standards.
EG
Just sayin wrote...
I said all that to say, the Church World SUCKS!
Chief said...
I changed my mind. No it doesn't suck Just sayin. It BLOWS!!! Hahaha. Couldn't resist that one. LOL. Later.
Actually I need to correct myself again. The NTCC sucks and blows. They suck your money out of you and then they blow it on everything and anything.
EG said:
"We've had to work hard to find churches since leaving NTCC."
DNA said:
I have not really felt the need to find a church since leaving the ntcc. I have heard a lot of horror stories from folks who have went looking for other churches and I've heard some good things about other churches. People use pull out the Hebrews 10:25 scripture and pitchfork it in your direction, whenever they want to satisfy the requirement of attending 5 church services a week. I think it's great if you can find a church that doesn't abuse people and doesn't get rich off of your giving. I think it's wonderful if you can find other believers who practice having love one for another and who care about the poor and down trodden.
But I also think you are better off not going to church if you can't find a group that isn't trying to ram false doctrine down your throat. If you are going to a church just to satisfy the requirement of Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together", you need to study that scripture out. What does forsaking mean? If I utterly forsake or disregard the worship of God and those who get together for that purpose, does that mean I have to subject myself to a regimen of church attendance and beliefs that require me to do things that are not biblical? Do I have to subject my family to a bunch of rules that are twisted to benefit a bunch of fanatical religious nut cases that want to use your for your money and resources to further their own interests? You have to use a little bit of common sense. Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Mat. 18:20 You don't have to assemble with a bunch of people that teach false doctrine five times a week and pay them your hard earned money.
EG, I didn't mean that in anyway to discredit anything you said about your church or your situation. I was strictly saying this from my own point of few.
Good points DNA. Ive enjoyed this thread and learning where peoples views have ended up on a specific topic that NTCC abused. You just presented another great topic with the idea of attendance and the NTCC slant of foresaking.
EG
DnA said..." Mat. 18:20 You don't have to assemble with a bunch of people that teach false doctrine five times a week and pay them your hard earned money."
I have given this topic a lot of thought. And in it's current form, the church is useless. Why do we need it? it doesn't do anything for us except lay a guilt trip on you to give up your hard earned money. What does the church in it's current form offer anybody? Somebody please expound!
Along these lines I've read two books I've found helpful. Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barns. Basically says the house church is the biblical model. Also, Who Really Cares by Arthur Brooks. Basically finds regular church attendees are more generous on every level includes time and money, secular and religious causes.
That's George Barna, the survey guy.
EG
Anonymous said...
I have given this topic a lot of thought. And in it's current form, the church is useless.
Chief said...
Well..... There is one area that it's not useless. Believe it or not, there are many churches that really spend a lot of time helping people. The real deal. Medical help, food help, genuine love and care. There are churches which help. The NTCC basically doesn't help anyone but they sure help themselves to your money. I've brought this up probably at least 1000 times but just really think for a moment how the Kekels have spent our money. $20,000 a year sending their kid to high school. $20,000 A YEAR!!!!!!!!!!! That's as much as many Americans make in 1 year!!!! And the Kekel's just pissed it away on their kid's grade school education. We estimated one time, (having gone to Charles Wright Academy website) (which is where G. Kekel went to grade school) and looking at tuition costs, that the Kekel's spent nearly $180,000 sending Grant to school from K-12!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you all get that? That's why I bring this same thing up so often. That's a dog gone house and a pretty nice one at that for that kind of money!!!!!!!!!! Money ain't nothing to the Kekel's and they blow it like it grows on trees and the sick part is we all sacrificed to the stinkin MAX just so they could suck up and blow through as much as we gave to the NTCC.
They haven't just spent money, they've blown through it on anything they could dream of while we all struggled. And then to add insult to injury, Kekel said that people in the NTCC are broke because they didn't listen to RWDs teachings and they were a bunch of "KNOT HEADS".
So you have some spoiled, married into money PRICK, who's been handed everything on a silver platter, judging so many other NTCCers because they are essentially BROKE!!!! How in the world can anyone still be ignorant enough to follow a guy like that. With Kekel, you aren't following a "man of God", you are following a spoiled, silver platter havin brat. What has Kekel ever done? What church has he ever pioneered? He moved to Graham with his son's greedy grand daddy, and given a church with tithe payers to the max to get rich off of, NO MORE NO LESS.
And listen to this!!! Every time the NTCC leadership determined that some quote, "minister" wasn't cutting the mustard, that minister would be brought back up to Graham for "re-training" which would even more fatten the Graham tithe pot which resulted in yet even more money for the Kekels. Get some of that.
What a scheme and what a scam. Running low on tithe payers??? Just bring a few back up to Graham because God forbid we can't pay the $20,000 a year dog gone high school bill for our son!!!!!
It cost NTCC tithe payers ALMOST $80,000 F$%&%$# dollars just to send Grant to high school for crying out loud!!! Now is that what Christianity is supposed to be all about. A big fat HELL NO!!!!!!
Brothers and Sisters, WE GOT DUPED and it's just that simple. And the kid got to play basketball in shorts and football in tight lascivious football pants while our kids were deprived of all that stuff because we were dumb and stupid and suckers enough to follow RWD the prick's guidelines.
Well there you go. I just went on a rant and I could care less what anyone thinks. What I just spoke is the truth coupled with passion and a biblical quote, "righteous indignation". I went on a rant with some expletives and Jesus would have started calling them a generation of vipers and he'd been flippin tables. Viper, Prick, Whited sepulcher, Hypocrite, same same.
Jesus wasn't worried about reproving a quote, "SINNER". He couldn't stand the religious church folks of his day and I can't stand these religious hucksters either.
I lived in the same room with Mike. When he graduated BS, he didn't even have a car. He went out on an "evangelistic tour" and then came back and became an "administrator" and teacher. He never was put through the same wringer the rest of us had to negotiate, and then we had to come back and hear him bloviate about what failures we were because we didn't "make it happen." He had the nerve to criticize preachers who went out and got a building and laughed at them for preaching to empty chairs. If he had half a clue he'd know what an accomplishment it is to even find a building and get some empty chairs while you're trying to work, live, raise a family, and jump through all the asinine hoops NTCC set up. He's a tool, and he only "succeeded" because, like Chief said, everything was handed to him on a silver platter. He's not worthy to shine the shoes of the "losers" that he ridicules.
No school, bank, grocery, charity, or church is perfect. That being said, the church needs change.
holy crap, there's like 50 stinkin' Ashmore video's out there.
Anonymous said...
No school, bank, grocery, charity, or church is perfect.
Chief said...
And whatever the opposite of perfect is, that's the NTCC. You have "perfect" and you have "completely flawed" and completely flawed is the NTCC.
There is nothing Godly about Kekel and he is running the show, so what does that tell ya. Vic knows Kekel quite well and Vic's told us all about him and not only that we know about Kekel with or without Vic. What kind of creep has the wifes of his own church members come to clean his house??? That is the most dysfunctional example of and abuse of leadership I've even seen in my life. Here is the perfect description of Kekel: SPOILED BRAT. And this guy is in charge of a multi million dollar church. Heck, it might be worth a billion? Who knows? This guy has essentially earned nothing but thats the world. It's almost never what you know, it's who you know and Kekel married the bosses daughter and in this world thats often all it takes.
If Kekel would just fess up and say, "that's right, I have what I have because I married Davis' daughter" and if he'd stop acting like a hero, when in reality he's zero, someone with some sense might actually respect him.
The problem is when he puts others down for not doing enough, when if it wasn't for Tanya, he would have never done enough just like everyone else in the NTCC. The NTCC is anything but perfect, it's a stone cold abusive cult that cons people out of their money so that "org" needs a whole lot more than a change. For the sake of the good of all mankind, rather than a change, it would be best if the NTCC was simply gone. The NTCC is an absolute menace to society.
Lots of people just don't understand how harmful and destructive the NTCC is. It is an awful organization. There is hardly anything good about it.
No possible way it's worth a billion... The real estate they own can't be that valuable. The turn over is to great to have any increase year over year on tithes and offerings. I'm guessing it has the possibility of going bankrupt with the right push. Not that certain assets would be protected but I don't see anything close to a billion.
Just my opinion though.
Anon said..."No school, bank, grocery, charity, or church is perfect."
I'm soooo tired of hearing/reading that statement! As if we all have to give them a blanket pass because of this fact. I say screw that garbage. The Church World is in a world of hurt because of criminals like R W Davis, M C Kekel, J H Olson, J L Johnson, P H Kinson, L D Jones, and the rest of that UNGODLY bunch of money mongering, phony, hypocrites!!! They milk people for all their worth and then leave them on the roadside left for dead, spiritually speaking!
I thank God that I left the Ntcc with my mind, money, and marriage still in tact. Just before we left that "Crooked Organization," there was a concerted effort by R W Davis, with the help of L D Jones, to break up my marriage.
They are Scum. "Moris scumbu"!! The church world can kiss my...
I'm done!
I say to Vic and Chief, Target, Target cease fire. No, don't cease fire, Keep firing!!!!
You both nailed it in your last post!
Kekel the Schmekel is a nothing more than a BIG MOUTH PUNK! He's a spoiled little "Church Brat!" who has a lot of money, OUR money! But not anymore! One day the Ntcc will gone, just wait until Grant gets his hand on it. Davis prophesied about this a long time ago. When Kekel took control, that was the beginning of the end. Let's be real folks, Kekel couldn't make that church grow while Davis was alive, what do you think he's gonna do with it now that Davis is gone?
mdr
Let's be real folks, Kekel couldn't make that church grow while Davis was alive, what do you think he's gonna do with it now that Davis is gone?
mdr
DNA said:
I hope you are right. It certainly seems like Kekel is running it into the ground.
How do you grow a church through compromise when they pride themselves on not compromising? It would seem to me this is what caused HOP and Jesus Revival Preacher to come about.
So whoever is left wanted to compromise anyway.
Kind of reminds me of a Santa Claus Easter Bunny church... As you grow up you find out the tooth fairy is bogus, the easter bunny is bogus...
Eventually you question everything. Or if you're in the NTCC you don't.
The Easter Bunny isn't real?
WTF?
Stick to what you know. Just because the NTCC sucks doesn't mean Dwayne Johnson isn't real.
EG
Just don't call him a tooth fairy or any kind of fairy to his face.
EG said..."Dwayne Johnson isn't real."
EG, Dwayne Johnson, "The Rock" is an awesome actor. If you want to see some good flick with him in it, check out "Walking Tall" and one of my personal favorites "The Rundown" both great movies!
Oh and have I said lately that "Kekel the Schmekel SUCKS!"
mdr
WTF...
Chief said..."Even though the NTCC is a scam perpetuated by con artists."
Talk about a scam. Many years ago my wife and I were invited to the Kekel's for fellowsh#@t, oops, I mean fellowdhip. There were wbout 5 couples there including Verna and Roger. The Kekel's were building their first mansion at this time and they were up at the building site with Roger making some decisions about floor tile. While we were waiting for them to grace us with their presence Verna began to share how that "poor" little Tanya was almost to the point of a nervous breakdown, crying and carring on about how she couldn't understand why God had selected here to be so blessed. And everybody sitting there was oohing and awing about "poor" little Tanya Kekel being so blessed.
I wanted to puke, and my wife asked me later on that evening, what was that all about?
They had to justify all of our money being spent on "poor" little Tanya!
What a pathetic bunch of swindlers!
Anonymous said...
Verna began to share how that "poor" little Tanya was almost to the point of a nervous breakdown, crying and carrying on about how she couldn't understand why God had selected here to be so blessed. What a pathetic bunch of swindlers!
Chief said...
Poor Tanya. It must be hard to be that spoiled, I mean "blessed". Blessed my butt. "I wonder why God selected her to be so blessed". What a load of CRAP. Is a jewel thief blessed because he got away with a million dollars in diamonds? Tanya is delusional. She is living in a fantasy world both figuratively and literally. Tanya Kekel is one of the most fake people walking on the face of this earth.
Verna was in Columbus one time telling us a story about Tanya. She said that Grant had gone off on a school field trip (which cost who knows how much) to I believe it was "Canada". I'm pretty sure it was Canada but whether it was Canada or not it was a field trip and it was out of town and according to Verna, Tanya was heart broken because her son was out of her reach.
Well Tanya was having such a hard time being away from Grant, that Tanya and Verna actually went to the hotel where Grant was staying and sat in the lobby and spied on Grant just so Tanya could see him. Well apparently Grant saw them and walked up to them and said hello and that made Tanya feel better. I believe they had to get plane tickets to travel to where he was at if my memory serves me correctly.
Once again, NTCC tithe money hard at work.
That is a spoiled brat if I ever saw one. Undoubtedly Tanya missed some church function during that time simply because she missed her son. If you missed church or bible study or whatever because you missed your son, you would have been told the you loved your son more than you loved God. I'm asking one person to come on here and tell me I'm lying.
That is a true story and I listed to Verna tell that story first hand in the serviceman's home in Columbus Georgia. Is there anyone who reads this blog who believes that is a good use of the tithe money you give to the NTCC? An expensive school field trip and the cost of Tanya and Verna to go see him just because Tanya couldn't wait till he got back home?
Is that what you pay your tithes for? Is that acceptable?
We tell these TRUE stories in the hope that someone will read them and at least question spiritual legitimacy of the NTCC leadership which in case you don't know includes Tanya without doubt. Unfortunately too many people dismiss this stuff and then about 3 years later show back up on this blog with horror stories about their experience with the NTCC leadership and usually with Mike and Tanya Kekel or Olson the enabler.
Ignore this stuff at your own peril.
Chief said..."That is a spoiled brat if I ever saw one. Undoubtedly Tanya missed some church function during that time simply because she missed her son. If you missed church or bible study or whatever because you missed your son, you would have been told the you loved your son more than you loved God."
Chief, I'll tell you that you're NOT lying! Just before we "escaped" the borg. Pebbles and Wilma (Tanya and Verna), flew down to their little Arizona resort to do some shopping! They missed a weekend of church service's. Everyone knows how they really love the outlet stores in Phoenix. The Ironic thing was that during this same weekend people were being castigated in the pulpit by Kekel the Schmekel for missing service's to fix their vehicles and doing family things!
This is typical behavior of narcissistic, elitist, scum bags. And that's exactly what Peebles and Bam-bam are!
Chief, you nailed it when you said "We tell these TRUE stories in the hope that someone will read them and at least question spiritual legitimacy of the NTCC leadership which in case you don't know includes Tanya without doubt!"
And where is J H Olson in all this? Well, He's in the pulpit on Sunday Morning, almost to the point of tears, telling everyone how that he prays for Tanya every day before he does for his own daughter! It's true folks!
Gag me with a spoon!! These folks are despicable!
mdr
Tanya is such a fake. It's so plain to see. MDR, I guess people just don't believe the things we write. No that's not it. It's like the guy said on radio. "You believe what you "want" to believe". People would rather believe in someone like Tanya than believe their own ears, eyes and brain.
This world is so full of brainwashed people it's not even funny and it wasn't too long ago that we were one of them. Thank God my brain finally kicked in and took over what I "wanted" to believe.
That's it my bro! There comes a time that you can't deny it anymore, what you're seeing and hearing from these "scummy" people.
Most people in the Ntcc are caught up trying to please these bunch of Narcissistic, fascist, pigs, instead of standing up to them and leaving.
Unfortunately, it takes many years for people to wake up and acknowledge the TRUTH about what they're involved in. I have talked to a lot of people that have left the borg. and a lot of them had the same thoughts before leaving:
-They were afraid of loosing all of their friends.
-They were concerned about what would be said about them after they're gone.
-They were afraid that God was going to Judge them...and on an on!
This kind of thinking is a result of the mind conditioning that your put through while apart of that UNGODLY CULT!
If your thinking about leaving the Ntcc, don't think about it anymore, JUST DO IT, and spare yourself and your family anymore despair. Don't worry about Kekel the Schmekel calling you bitter, or saying you didn't want "Holiness"...He's gonna say it anyway! Just leave and don't look back or worry about what that scumbag says.
Trust me, you will be glad that you left! Things get better and better after you have made the break.
mdr
If you want your significant other to leave with you just do something fun instead of going to soul winning. You'll never look back. Go watch Age of Ultron while all the other putzes are praying mindlessly into the air right before they go out to harass people.
When they try and guilt trip you throw their sins in their obese face's.
^Need a like button.
EG
If tithe is required then where is the leadership tithing...
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