My Short Story of Leaving NTCC
I was in NTCC from 2002-2011. I was reached in Anchorage Alaska, went to Seminary in Graham, WA, and worked to build churches in Olympia, WA, Tillicum, WA, and Mildenhall, England. England was where our eyes were opened to the truth of NTCC.
Even after a year of telling Rev. Olson we couldn't handle it in England anymore, the best he offered was, "We love you, God loves you, we are praying for you, and maybe, just maybe, you will have 100 people in service and someone might write a thousand dollar check." What a crook, con artist huckster Olson is. Same old song and dance. "We Love you, we are praying for you". What a joke. Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Sound familiar. Olson to a tee.
Then you just press on, right? But the fact remained, what he said never happened, they were never really concerned for us, and we were ready to leave. England, and the NTCC.
Rev Olson and Pastor Davis had no one to replace us when our two years was about up. They even asked us to extend our visas another two years! After we were adamant about not extending, it was explained that they would've had someone there sooner, but they still had to replace them and the ones replacing them still had to be replaced! Sounds like a lot of replacements. The NTCC's sorry revolving door of failures. There was a problem because someone that was supposed to replace someone, had left NTCC. Imagine that. They ought to call NTCC ministers "The Expendables". Not sure if it was the Annis', but I think they wanted them to replace us.
Rev. Olson had asked, "What about the church?" And we responded, "What about us?" Go figure. What about the offering plate. Man who cares about the minister and his wife; they are replaceable - expendable.
Pastor Davis ended up saying they would close the church. Ding dong, you just won the prize Davis. Didn't take a genius to figure that one out.
This was about one month before our visas were to expire and we were told to sell everything, including the car, and to make as much as we can to buy our plane tickets.
Later, Pastor Davis told us that the church in England was going downhill even before we got there. Oh my. Would have been nice to know that from the get go. Just another failed experiment. I saw plenty of those while I was a part of the NTCC. Nothing new there.
Mike Kekel said he originally didn't even want us to go, and he even offered my husband a lay pastor position back in Graham. Mind you, this was after we said we were not coming back to Graham. He tried buying us with a position. Keep the money in Graham. Got to fund the Kekel's lavish lifestyle. Tanya the spoiled brat with the silver spoon in her mouth needs some new furniture.
We began to read these blogs and realized many other good people were leaving and we saw people weren't afraid to question the leaders of this organization.
That's why they don't like these blogs. Yeah baby, I'm sure they won't like this testimony either. LOL.
We began to see very similar stories, how NTCC draws people in, and then takes advantage of them. We started looking back, to the beginning, and realized there were so many red flags that we ignored.
Sister Kekel wanted us back in Graham when I told her I decided to get a job. She said that many women in Graham work jobs. CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT!!! According to the NTCC crooks, it was a sin for a woman to work. I knew they couldn't stick with that forever; too much lost tithe dollars with the slave women not working. I responded that I know that, but that they also preach against women working and they look down upon those women. She said her husband has never preached against women working. Really? Rev Kekel? Dog gone lying hypocrite. Old compromising Kekel but what's new. Davis definitely preached it and so did every other NTCC minister I EVER knew. I knew at that moment she was lying.
I don't say the above in anger, bitterness, or jealousy...I say the above as a proclamation of the DOUBLE STANDARD and HYPOCRISY and GREEDINESS that exists and is allowed in the NTCC leadership and organization. There is so much more to say. I'd love to hear from more people who have left and their story. Lots of young couples have left, but why? Where is the outcry. Why are they staying shut? Are they scared? Of what!? The truth!? Were you made to agree not to talk bad about them?
They say, "If you leave NTCC, you leave God."
A false doctrine.
NTCC truly is a cult. AMEN SISTER. PREACH.
Oh, to hear the stories of others, I'm sure they would be similar.
In love, Diana Molino (Bullington)
81 comments:
Great testimony. Hope you approve of my comments. Thought it would add a little humor and satire to your very serious testimony.
Chief
I love it every time someone steps up and unmasks the phonies running NTCC. Multiply this testimony by the thousands and behold the sad wake of misery and destruction this fake church has churned up over the decades. The "leadership" is so far gone they probably actually believe their own lies by now, and regard themselves as God's special messengers, but in reality they're just crooks and swindlers trapped in their own greedy materialism, without a shred of concern for the lives of others. Watch them strut around like peacocks, demanding rock star treatment from their duped captives.
The day we freed ourselves was a day of rejoicing, and I'm urging all who are sick and tired of being used and abused to get off the fence and leave those losers in the dust. They need you way more than you need them.
Vic said...
They need you way more than you need them.
Chief said...
Boy ain't that the truth. Cause you definitely don't need them. I'd rather stand up in the middle of a hurricane like the weather channel guys did during IRMA than sit through one second of another NTCC brainwashing service.
Thanks for sharing Chief, there is something good about putting the truth out there. I know people don't speak up because they are afraid, but what would Jesus say to them today, after all they've done to take advantage of people and control them and place upon them heavier burdens than God intends for them.
Thank you for posting your story. Not a lot of that these days. Around 2006, when the word got out about the NTCC scam artists, lots of people posted testimonies about their horrific experiences as a result of being a part of the NTCC. After a while, folks got tired of it and decided to totally move on and I get that too.
I've gone though stages like that where I just got sick of even thinking about the NTCC. For the most part I don't post now. But every now and then, a good testimony comes up, and and I like to comment. Yours happened to be one of those. It's good to remind people just how conniving and damaging the NTCC leadership really is and how deceitful they continually are. Believe this as you already know.
The Kekels, Olsons, Kinsons and the rest of those crooks up in Graham are not good people. Most NTCC pastors are not good people. Often somewhat ignorantly misguided but nevertheless still not good people. The NTCC turns most everyone into scoundrels to one degree or another and I certainly was one of those people when I was part of that mess. These are NOT good people. They will definitely waste and use up your life and take advantage of you if you allow them, which is exactly what you are doing when you remain a member of the NTCC, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
Yes, I remember going to bible school in 2005, and it was preached a lot for us not to go on the sinnernet and read things against the church. I remember first seeing these at the public library in Puyallup (Graham). People do get tired of it, but one day, they may want to talk about it. Those who have left and have not spoken out, I wonder why. Are they scared? If they left, there must be a reason. Why are they not shouting from the rooftops?...Warning people to get away?
Oh I know. I honestly believe it's because they really are only concerned for themselves which isn't completely a bad thing I guess. I hate to see people's lives get ruined in the NTCC and I know that's what's happening. Lives are getting wasted. I do understand the need to get away from this stuff though. It can be very time consuming. I used to be pretty rapped up around warning people of the dangers of being involved with the NTCC. I actually felt bad for them. As time went on I didn't feel so bad because it became painfully clear that many were brainwashed beyond repair and more often than not I was just wasting my precious time trying to bring logic and facts to someone who simply didn't have the capacity to posses common sense. They can't understand sound logic and reason. Many people in the NTCC can't comprehend the truth and they don't have the sense and brain power to see people like the Kekels for what they really are. A couple lying con artists; no more no less. You can lead a horse to water but you most certainly can't make them drink.
Definitely not a waste of time though, when in it's right place. Someone will read this and relate, just like many others.
I recommend that no one should quit NTCC. Just stop tithing to them and they will escort you out. And, you'll have a little nest egg when they do.
Eric
Nah, quit. Just get out of there. With your tithe. They corrupted Godliness. They used the pulpit to take advantage of, all in the name of us wanting to do something for the Lord.
I'm sorry, but I have to mention the Holt's. I emailed them and told them my heart's secrets and trusted them. I know they loved me, but couldn't fully because of NTCC's agenda. I want to say so much, but toil between not wanting to hurt them or disrespect them, and saying so much more, but they were wrong.
And they offered a "blanket" apology just like NTCC would, "We're sorry for the things you say we did."
A church, placing burdens on Jesus' people, God's people, that need not be.
Get saved NTCC. I pray you do.
Thanks Diana for your testimony.
I think the "replacements" are what will doom this crooked org. They're graduating classes continue to shrink or are just a bunch of women who can't run a church anyways.
LOL... BURN BABY BURN
Mike
Heck, these women can run a church better than half these dead beat, pitiful men.
Who says these sorry men are better at running a church than a woman? Kekel? Davis? Olson? The Bible doesn't say that women are stupid. A lot of them are a heck of a lot more organized than a lot of these pitiful men.
Diana, I think a lot of us don't tell our story because we are trying to figure out life once we realize how much we lost. Everyone processes differently, at different speeds. Some times it's out of respect to our family because they aren't able to share yet.
We see others share and it is so similar or exactly like what happened to us, so we continue trying to get to the place where we can share.
I understand, but please, I pray, don’t let it be because of the fear they tried to instill in us. Being a part of these blogs is not condemning us to hell as they preach. They want us quiet. It is freeing to share and to help others, just like you said, who relate and are not alone.
"We're sorry for the things you say we did". Wow. They place all responsibility for their transgressions on you. Classic cult behavior. They won't even acknowledged their wrongs.
Diana,
I'm very sorry for what you went through at the hands of those you trusted. I cried when you shared your story on here last year, I believe it was. Is there a way to contact you privately?
Hi, you can email me and then I can give you my number: db2012db@gmail.com
See this is what I've been telling people for near a decade now. The NTCC is a cult that definitely screws up the lives of it's congregants. The NTCC is nothing but trouble and a real good way means of wasting large portions of your life.
Chief
I gotta tell you, this anti H.O.P.P website is awesome. I wish we would have all these undercover conversations.
Plus these ex Hoppers protest at their buildings... Man I'm impressed.
That is impressive. Denis is a cold hearted criminal. He learned from the best. He actually told me as much. I'm dead serious. He didn't like the NTCC but he said he was glad to have learned from Davis. He told me this immediately after the split. So if you don't think Davis is a crook you are out of your dog gone mind.
LOL!!! My parents are still Ministers at NTCC, but after I turned 18 I left. Can you imagine how it felt to be called at NUT for no reason by another pastors wife and other smart remarks because I choose not to go to church after my parents left state?! Imagine growing up in the ministry PERIOD?! These name callings was even before I left. I was literally stalked for a couple of months. Even took the Pastors wife out just to hang out and there was always a catch at the end...WILL I SEE YOU IN CHURCH?!... with respect whoever stays there do your thing, but i will do mine and keep the rest of my mouth shut for Gods sake. I wont put a bad name on the people who were really trying to help people in that organization with pure love in their hearts, just like yourself Diana. People will reap what they sow! There are crooks in every career that give the innocents a bad rep. Much love..and God Bless to you all -Sal
Did you know that the word/name Satan, means adversary? In the string’s Concordance, both the Hebrew and Greek word for Satan.
Yes, Satan is the devil, that old serpent, but Satan, or, adversary, or anything against God, is satan, and adversary.
What NTCC does, yes, a good thing, we learned the word, and about The Word, Jesus Christ, but they too are not so high and holy that they cannot be tempted. Even Satan tempted Jesus, and The Spirit led Him there.
Does NTCC not think God will judge them too? Or try them or test them, as he did Job and even Jesus. Yes, God wants to see if they too, will humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways, and seek God’s face. Then, they and their land will be healed.
Let it be so.
I emailed the Kekel’s...both of them, with no response. I asked for forgiveness and confessed some things. Confess your faults one to another, right? They have not reciprocated, though they know they did wrong. They have not humbled themselves. They will ignore it, because maybe they don’t want me posting what they have to say, but they could at least say, hey, we got your email, and please forgive us to for anything we wronged you. But that’s okay. I forgave them. God loves them. I will still warn people about them. Take the good and leave the bad. Leave NTCC, but keep the good they taught. The bad things are satan, or adversary to God.
*Strong’s Concordance
A sister shared with me some of her readings from a book about cults and I want to share them here. Tell me every single part does not remind you of some time in NTCC:
The book is called, "Deadly Cults; The Crimes of True Believers" by Robert L. Snow:
Give the cult members a feeling of eliteness and earth-shaking importance
Cut off contact with everyone outside the cult, including family members
Never say anything critical of the leader or the cult, never show any independent thought, and only talk positively about whatever's preached.
Those who criticize the leader or show any independent thought are targets of the group criticism.
It is a cult if it's designed to disable the ability of the individual to think for himself so as to make him psychologically dependent on the commands of the cult leadership.
The desired result of cult indoctrination is to create mindless robots who will never question the cult leadership and who will carry out the cult Leader's orders, no matter what they are.
Children are hindrance, the parents need all of their time and energy for the cult.
It sometimes takes years for devoted members of a religious cult to finally recognize that the leader they have idolized and venerated for so long is actually corrupt, controlling, and far from the Godlike image the leader has tried to portray.
Shunned by church members and not allowed to attend certain social functions
Arranged marriages
Leader receiving instructions through direct Revelations from God and anyone who disobeyed these new rules disobeyed God.
Whenever a member protests about something they're being made to do or taught. They are told they are listening to Satan and not to God.
When understanding cults don't make sense of their beliefs instead look at their actions.
Don't examine the validity of religious or spiritual beliefs of any group, look at what they do.
Employs unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.
Use manipulative techniques in recruiting, use high-pressure thought reform techniques to indoctrinate their members, demand total and complete obedience from all members, and manipulate and use members for the benefit of cult leaders.
The leader or leaders put things on the people but exclude themselves from any requirements.
Most cult leaders have a large number of Personality deficiencies and often would be diagnosed as Psychopaths and they usually have no empathy for the people they harm.
Cult leader psychopaths - completely lacking in conscience and feelings for others, they selfishly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret.
Most cult leaders care only about being worshipped and obeyed, and about living a life of luxury.
That's the NTCC leaders for sure. How to identify a cult 101.
Chief
Why not write a review for them?
https://www.yelp.com/biz/new-testament-christian-church-of-graham-graham-2?hrid=Avl_ux3EktEV6gzB2E62AQ&utm_source=ishare&utm_content=review
Good move. Just posted a review. For what it's worth. Hopefully it will persuade someone to stay clear of that trap.
Me too. Never want to miss an opportunity to broadcast the truth about this bunch of users.
For anyone that thinks that NTCC isn't about the money, check out Kekel's latest real estate investment -
Your $660,000 of tithe money
Kekel Apartments
Kekel Apartments Value
Also check out how this is being divided up and is going to be sold off
Forest Forty
That's no surprise. Good information but for what it's worth, we've known that since around the 2007, 2008 time frame and for many people quite a good many years earlier than that. The NTCC has always been nothing more than a real estate holding company fronting as a church. The NTCC has "NEVER" been about quote "saving souls". It's been about accumulating wealth and assets and more specifically cash and real estate. Anyone who believes otherwise is a blinded sucker. Grant Kekel is going to be a multi million if not billionaire if he ain't already. Anyone who also thinks different is blind sucker.
Are people still wasting their life with NTCC? At this point they kind of get what they deserve. With all of the witnesses, the evident compromise and double standards, not to mention Kekel is not even likeable. Atleast people actually liked Davis and he had Charisma.
Eric
It actually looks like Kekel bought this property.
(With Tithe Payer money), of course...
Of course. The NTCC way. Tithe the poor and give to the rich. That's the Bible way. Everyone in the NTCC knows that. The good old story of Robin Hood. Praise the lawd. One giveth, another receiveth. The lawd is good to those who brainwash the minds of the suckers.
But the LORD is good and I won’t mock Him either. NTCC is wrong, but so is anyone who displeases the LORD. God is not mocked and God is real. It’s attitudes like that that make NTCCers think we all left God when we left their dominion and control.
If you left NTCC and also LEFT GOD,
then YOU are wrong. And you cannot blame NTCC when you stand before the Lord.
“Well, God, NTCC was mean to me and took advantage of me, so I sinned but you understand.”
That’s not a good enough excuse. We will still be asked what we did with Jesus.
Have you seen “A Case for Christ”?
That man, Lee Strobel, set out to prove Jesus’ death and resurrection wasn’t real, but he ended up becoming a believer.
Slow your roll there "sister". Wasn't mocking God. Was mocking Davis and the NTCC. Lets not get over spiritual by chastising people under the pretense that you are God's personal judge, jury and executioner. No one feels like getting preached at. That's one of the main reasons we left the NTCC because they had this holier than thou attitude masquerading as God's spokespeople when they were anything but. Getting a little holy there I'd say.
Well, anonymous, things can get taken in a way that wasn’t intended when reading text and I’m sorry I misunderstood your intent.
Not a problem. I understand.
The scam rolls on...
So, maybe I will just let it be. Vengeance belongs to the Lord, right?
He will take care of all of this.
Facebook recommended someone to me that I may know, and it was someone else that cut me off, just stopped responding to me, after I left NTCC. I wanted to reach out, but knew she would ignore me. I want to call her out, but I won’t. I’ll just leave it.
A loved one shared something with me, “Forgivness is divine in that it frees you from the chains of resentment.”
Hi, I also left the church. I just wanted to give a little encouragement. If anyone says anything contrary to Gods word( even a church leader) ,then God is still correct and they are wrong. The straw that broke the camels back for me was when a pastor stood up and exclaimed " I have a right to succeed in the ministry". In other words ,his drive and focus was on his success and not the church members successfully serving God. I'm thinking of an individual in the bible who said he always did those things that pleased the Lord. Pastors should have a desire to get their congregation to this point. I believe you were pleasing to the Lord when you chose Him over N.T.C.C. Sometimes, I wonder if I actually got saved when I chose to leave the church. I think many souls are in jeaprody who stay there, and a lot of them stay out of fear and peer pressure. There is one bright side to my story though. That is this. I was forced to read the bible for myself to see if what they were saying lined up. It's kind of hard to leave when you fear for your soul, but the bible itself became a witness to me against the church. Knowledge is power. God bless and keep looking to Him.
Thank you for sharing that. I agree that, if we stayed in NTCC, we would have had to continue down a path of deceit, not just to others, but to ourselves. It’s the way their system ends up working out. So, yes, I agree that it pleased the Lord to leave, and that’s what most matters. Same here, when things they taught didn’t line up with the Bible, I realized something was terribly wrong.
God bless you as well and keep looking to Him as well! Happy New Year!
Some say they brain wash people like the military, but I'm not so sure. You see ,the military tears you down first. They take everything you're proud of and destroy it. Then, they turn around and give you the military to be proud of. They are redirecting the ego.This makes troops compliant when given the order to go into harms way. It also makes them self motivated to succeed in the military. The bible in many places teaches us that ego is a bad thing. I'm not bashing the military. They are not saved and have probably not read much bible. However pastor Davis seemed to have borrowed a partial page from the military's playbook.
I think, looking back on the phsychology of self development classes we all had in seminary school I see their mistake. The idea was not to first tear down and then rebuild, but to just build people's self esteem. This however is an error because it always causes conceit it the hearts of the students. Even some military leaders admit this. Someone had commented on a T.V. show of the level of conceit marines had when they graduated. The man being interviewed dismissed it ,saying the good outweighs the bad.The word of God goes directly against conceit.if anything, we should be trying to reduce it and grow in God.
I don't know if they are guilty of hurting people in the way some are saying. I left the church in 2010. I do know that their approach to serving God is a cement head approach. To quote pastor Davis " thoroughly mixed and thouroughly set. I have to answere to God for my own foolishness. I don't need someone helping me to be even more foolish. C u here there or in the air.
They didn't make a quote, "mistake". Davis was quite deliberate when using his brainwashing tactics. Get you to church as many days a week as possible. Purpose and result? Definitely more money taken in and definitely more time to gain mind control of your congregates. This was a deliberate tactic used and taught by Davis as he confessed as much openly during a conference that I attended and he did so in front of the entire congregation. He said that if you as a Pastor needed more money, then hold more church services. So this is not speculation or a mystery as I was sitting right there when he said so. The whole control thing is quite obvious and plain to see requiring no explanation.
And I do know that they are absolutely guilty of hurting people and they do much of it deliberately. What you've described as "conceit" is more like someone using the brain that God gave them. It's not conceit just because you elect to use the brain that you were born with. Someone is not being conceited just because they recognize that they know what they know. I know what I know. I know I'm looking at this computer screen right now and I also know that R.W. Davis and M Kekel are stone cold crooks. Well at least Davis was. The NTCC is a seriously crooked church and if you could measure crookedness the NTCC is a good bit more crooked than most I'm convinced. The fact is a lot of churches managed by crooked leaders. The NTCC is just a particularly devious brand of crooked churches.
Is this the fella we nicknamed chief at seminary school. You know, the Indian with the big red truck? If so I hung insulation with you.,and lived in the same dorm. I had the yellow beetle. I'll never own one again. I wasn't impressed with German engineering. Well, I'm not going to come to their defense.weather a mistake or on purpose they are contrary to Gods word and they will have to answere for that. I used to let hate fill my heart for them until I started thinking of their destination after death. This whole thing is an elaborate trap set by the devil himself. If he doesn't get you to be an n.t.c.c. Hypocrite, then he might get you to leave God altogether out of disgust, if that doesn't work he can always fall back on contaminating your soul with hate for the church. Hate is still a sin, and the devil doesn't care who you hate as long as he can contaminate your soul. He is a crafty fella that hates humans, and I think whichever way you look at it he loves to use n.t.c.c. To this end.
As for my use of the word conceit, I don't understand your response.maybe you could explain better. I was merely describing the methods they use to control people. I thought the insight might help someone. Please respond back. Thanks
No not the same Chief. Chief is just the screen name I've used for about 8 years. It was also what a friend used to call me, "Chief". Kind of a military thing. I'm the moderator and proprietor of this blog as I'm the one who created it for what it's worth. Not a lot to explain about conceit other than what the NTCC leadership used to describe conceit I don't consider it to be the same. Basically if you used your brain, they had the tendency to consider you conceited. I consider it, "using your brain" and not being ashamed to do so or too insecure to do so.
This blog used to have quite a few people on it with some degree of regularity. Well to maintain that level of participation I had to constantly post new stuff that was of interest and relevant. That was why this blog was created; to expose the crooks in the NTCC. Lives have been and I'm sure continue to be wrecked due to involvement with the NTCC. Of that much there is absolutely no doubt. Well a decent amount of people read our testimonies and it gave them the knowledge needed and the courage required to leave that cesspool of a church. Well you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink and many of us got tired trying to warn people of the many dangers surrounding involvement with the NTCC. So this blog is basically dead now and it's fine with me. Some folks simply love following cult leaders and that's never going to change so it is what it is.
Chief
True, forgiveness is for the person granting it. It means that the transgressor no longer holds control over the one granting forgiveness.
However, forgiveness does NOT mean the transgressor is not to be held accountable for their actions toward the victim or towards society.
Alot have or will walk through the "5 Stages of Grief" as they heal from NTCC cult tactics.
One of the stages of grief is anger. I believe God understands and forgives that anger because it is part of the healing process.
Whether God does or doesn't??? No one, while still living on this earth will ever know. Speculation for sure one way or the other on that one. Here is what we do know. Jesus hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
God ain't just a quote "God of Love". He's also a God of hate. Rev 2:6 proves it. So guess what? I hate the deeds of the crooked NTCC leadership. It has nothing whatsoever to do with forgiveness. Where I'm concerned, my feelings in that regard only have to do with me not being able to stand the crooked acts of the NTCC leadership. Well if you can't stand someone's deeds it's not just the deeds you can't stand. It's them committing the deeds. The deeds don't commit themselves. It's the people committing the deeds. Well Jesus hated that and he had no problem seeing fit for it to be put in writing. And where the NTCC is concerned, I have no problem putting it in writing either.
I hate the deeds of RW Davis, MC Kekel, Olson and all the rest of those "turn your head the other way and ignore the obvious" crooks. Again, it has nothing to do with forgiveness. It has to do with a conscious awareness. It has to do with my brain remaining perfectly functional. The brains of people who are brainwashed in the NTCC have lost the ability, (at least temporarily) to function properly. Thats what being brainwashed means. Your brain has been washed of logic and reason. You simply follow mindlessly while intentionally ignoring obvious transgressions and the hypocrisy committed by your crooked leadership. Bottom line is Jesus hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans and I hate the deeds of the NTCC leadership and I'll continue to hate it just like Jesus continued to hate the deeds referenced in Rev 2:6 AND 2:15.
Nothing wrong with anger anyway. Jesus was angry when he started flipping over the tables of the money changers. The NTCC needs a few tables flipped by some angry people.
Yeah, RW and his cronies weren't oppressing people by accident; it was totally calculated. There's a passage in "The Law of Success" by (which was the textbook for NTCC's Advanced School of Theology) in which Napoleon Hill deconstructs and analyzes the pernicious and deceptive tactics used by religious phonies to dupe their followers. Reading that, it became evident that this was the road map RW followed to control people.
No, these charlatans aren't sincere or well-meaning; they know exactly what they're about, and despite whatever "compromises" may have crept in, that hasn't changed one bit. Crooks and liars, phonies and control-freaks. That sums up the NTCC "leadership."
Thank you chief for responding. If you look at my January 1st comment, I would like you to bear in mind that the conceit I was talking about was the conceit that keeps people in N.T.C.C. To be brave enough to stand on the bible and call a spade a spade is not conceit. If you would humor me a little,I would like to give some personal history. I hope this sheds some perspective on my angle.
A few years before I left the church I sat in my chair at home wondering why I had a "know it all "attitude. It was bad enough that people commonly commented on it. I asked the lord why I was like this ,and weather he showed me or it was just my own high degree of focus on the problem I don't know, but I discovered was the reason I was a know it all. It was because I was always trying to make myself appear acceptable and worthy of friendship. You see, growing up I was the kid no one really wanted as a friend. I got chewed up by a Doberman pincher at a young age. He almost got my eye. He tore some muscles that surround the eye and as a result I had to walk around with my head cocked to the side to keep from getting double vision. At three and a half years old I never noticed it, but when I went to school I was the outcast. This treatment by my classmates continued for some years.Later on in life, I would walk into a room full of strangers and before anyone opened their mouth ,I could already feel the rejection. I really didnt know how they felt about me. I just knew how I felt about me. I had been trained to feel this.
Sitting in my chair at home I realized that the people who had trained me to feel rejected were only about 12 years old. They were my peers in grade school. As an adult sitting in my chair I also realized just how selfish, petty, and harsh that age group can be . They are just getting to the age where they know enough to be very cutting with their words, but not old enough to apreciate the scripture " love your neighbor as yourself." When I realized that this age group was the last group of people in the world to have anything to say about who I was as an adult, I was instantly liberated of my insecurities. They all washed away, and I actually started to sing to myself once in a while. I never did that in the past. Yes, the "know it all "attitude eventually subsided too.
Well, armed with this new insight, I began to write down all of my feelings. I began to see how the subconceince can be trained.
Out of fear of relaps,I started to give myself a very high self esteem. I got to the place where I could walk into a room full of people who didn't know me and make them visibly uncomfortable around me, though I said nothing. I felt on top of the world, but the people around me were hurt by it. So, I went back to praying about it and the lord dropped a thought in my heart " live in the middle". I tried it and I found it easier to make and keep friends. I was happier too. If I could use the analogy of an heart beat, it would go something like this. The high self esteem is like the high blip on the cardiograph. The low self esteem is like the low blip. Paul had it right on when he said " I die daily". In other words he was flat lining. He had neither high self esteem,nor low self esteem. It is better for a person not to dwell on themselves
In fact, the art of hulility is flatlining.i would like to pause for a moment and say- I have never been able to achieve true humility without walking closely with the lord. It seem that when you walk with the lord, you gain a confidence born in godly love, rather than pride.
Instead of teaching seminary students about psychology,N.T.C.C chose to enhance our self esteem through a class called "psychology of self development" . Enhancing our self esteem lead to conceit. Conceit blinded us, and so we were used by them for their own personal gain.
I think free bird has in right. Forgiveness frees the forgiver. The guilty party will still have to answere to God. Forgiving also does not mean forgetting. A person has a right to protect themselves from those same people in the future. So it's best not to forget.
To brainwash someone, you must redirect the ego. That is what brainwashing is. When you redirect the ego, a natural side effect is a higher level of conceit. You can't brainwash someone without increasing their conceit.
The bible stands against conceit, and therelfore against brainwashing, an therefore it stands against the class called psychology of self development.
Hi Meroz, not sure we’ve ever met, but I’m sorry for what you went through with the dog and at such a young age, but God is faithful to help us.
Well fair enough. A lot of personal info right there. Not that you are looking for it, I don't have a lot to say, "for a change", haha. You know yourself better than anyone I'm sure. A lot of self analysis there. I just wish you the best most definitely. I hope you are or become satisfied with your character. We all got flaws. Lord knows I got my share and I genuinely mean that. Having said that, I am who I am and I'm not hard on myself. I can only be me and I'm comfortable with that. I'm not trying to be anyone else or I'm not trying to satisfy anyone else. I do want to get along with people as much as possible. I could care less if I get along with some people. There are certain people with which I simply have ABSOLUTELY no desire to deal with at all under any circumstances. So there you have it. Christian leaders often have the ability to lay tons of guilt on the people they "attempt" to lead. Those days in my life are over. So what I'm saying is I'm comfortable in my skin and I believe that's a good way to be. Not worried about pleasing people but do want to live in peace.
Yea, that was a lot of personal info. You will be happy to know I'm doing better than ever. I'm married and I have a good career. I'm back living in my home state up in maine. were going through a blizzard now. At least it has warmed up a little.
The reason I shared all of that was that I hoped that any bits of info about my personal history (in the realm of psychology )might help someone. I care about those around me , and I hate to see people suffering from a church that should have been preaching the gospel of Christ.
I can still remember my first class of psychology of self development. Pastor Davis opened the class by saying " meet the most important person in the world- YOU!" From there he seemed to try and talk us out of our low self esteem. It only created a person that was both insecure and conceited. Like I said, it was a "cement head "approach. One thing I do not remember taking place in seminary school was the tearing down phase you go through when you first get into boot camp in the army. unless this was done without me realizing it, I don't think it happened much. Anyway,his approach was wrong headed to say the least. Perhaps He may have started out trying to do good,and one day ,towards the end ,greed and power got the best of him. Whatever his state of mind was I will really never know. I do know that we will all give an account for our actions ,and preachers will be held to a much higher standard. It doesn't look good for them. Eternity is long, and hell is hot.
On a very positive note, when I flushed away my insecurities, the wisdom found in the bible Grew exponentially. It's kind of like the young kid growing up thinking his dad wasn't very smart. But ,when he became old himself ,he stated my dad has really gotten wiser over the years. His dad was never dumb. The kid just didn't understand at that age. The bible is wiser than man because God is wiser than man.
P.S. The reason I chose the name Meroz is because I can still hear rev. Ashmore cursing us with spiritual curses from the pulpit because we didn't bring enough people to church that Sunday at the church in tillicum,WA.
Meroz said...
One thing I do not remember taking place in seminary school was the tearing down phase you go through when you first get into boot camp in the army. unless this was done without me realizing it, I don't think it happened much.
Chief said...
In the churches, I remember it going on right from the start and continuing. The quote "pastors" (lower case p) I had, tried to break you down, every last one of them. Some weren't as hard as others but all of them somehow always seemed to revert to the "blasting" phase of the message where everyone knew who he was preaching at. It was an embarrassment; shape up or ship out tactic. You were either going to get in line or they were going to make your life as miserable as they could until you shaped up or got tired of it and shipped out. I sat through the brainwashing messages of 7 pastors who definitely used that tactic too often. I witnessed all 7 of them be complete jerks on too many occasions. That certainly used to be the NTCC way. I've seen Davis do it. Bunch of control freak freaky deak jerks. Looking back I hate it that I put up with that mess for as long and as often as I did. I'd tell every last one of them now to stick it where the sun don't shine with no problem whatsoever. I got so sick of one of them that I left his church and went to another NTCC church more or less locally as a firm expression of my disdain for his tactics.
The last time I saw an NTCC pastor I let him and his wife know exactly how I felt about the NTCC, Davis and Kekel. I referred to Davis as "RWD" and the quote "pastor" almost went through the roof and I never backed off one bit. I finally stood up to them control freaks and I would do it again in a heart beat. It wasn't the first time actually. My wife and I did it when we formally let Oberhauser "the sorry excuse of a leader" know that we were leaving the NTCC for good. He wanted explanations and we had already decided that he was getting nothing. My wife was the church pianist and a good one because his wife didn't have a musical bone in her body just as a side note. It was like a circus act when she would get behind the keyboard. You can't MAKE someone musical who ain't.
My wife and I actually had previously made a stand also when we packed up our bags and left a church/pastor without giving him any explanation either. We didn't even tell him where we were going. I got sick of answering to them crooks. I actually preached (if that's what you want to call it) in both churches also and lead songs, (again for what it's worth). What I am saying is I was one of the quote "trustees". As long as you didn't totally shut of your brain for good, eventually, (even if it took a long time) you'd see right through them crooks who were leaders in the NTCC.
I don't agree that the brainwashing process consists of redirecting the ego. Instead, it's destroys it and substitutes an external authority in its place. This doesn't build self esteem; it eliminates it. My experience in the "seminary" was that they did their best to break us down and make us completely doubt ourselves while simultaneously paying lip service to self esteem. It was like an insane asylum. RDub would tell us "meet the most important person in the world--YOU!" out of one side of his mouth, but the minute anyone manifested the slightest tendency toward individuality or independent personal action, he would spew public rebuke and humiliation out of the other side and put them right back in their peon cell. There are a bunch of hollow people in NTCC walking around with plastic smiles and fake self esteem, but they don't have the testicular fortitude to stand up for themselves against their abusers.
RW went through this phase once where he was teaching us that we needed to be rhinos instead of cattle. Did it work? No, we just became a bunch of pathetic cattle milling around pretending to be rhinos (but we couldn't escape the bovine nature and knew it was a lie). It was sick. There was room for only one rhino on that team.
The only people with any self esteem in NTCC are the predatory "leaders," because they're narcissistic and sociopathic. They esteem themselves and no one else, and are incapable of normal human empathy. No one with healthy self esteem would endure their maltreatment, so they made sure we were well beaten down and psychologically incapable of insurrection.
In response to chief. I was referring to the clinical approach by a man with a supposed doctorates degree actively and purposefully altering people's mindsets. The preachers out in the field were puppets. I suspect none of them knew how to clinically change a person. The blasting I received by many a pastor was motivated by their own aggravation and disgust that they couldn't be held up an lauded at conference
In response to Vic Johnson:
It may be that your experience at seminary was somewhat different from mine. The question I do have is this... When you graduated, were you somewhat conceited because you were a minister? I can remember pastor Davis telling us that we were gods greatest gift to humanity. I partly believed it. My believing this is evidence that I was "built up" . It was very reminiscent of the last phase of my u.s.army basic training. If you were only torn down, that is strait up abuse. That is very much like I received at the hands of my 12 year old classmates. ( mentioned in a previous comment) You didn't deserve it. They were wrong for it, and will have to answere for it.
Just remember- this life is just a vapor, but eternity is forever. If you are on Gods side at judgement day, that is all that really matters. All of our tears will be washed away, and the devil will be no more. Wish you well.
Please feel free to respond.
P.S. ,I would like to state for the record that I'm not a doctor of psychology. I can only speak from personal experience. I have had a low self esteem, and I've had a high self esteem. I'd rather be without either. Life's better when you're not focused on yourself so much. I don't have to be Gods greatest gift to humanity. I only have to be pleasing to him, and he tells me how to do that in the bible.
Sorry about misspellin your name.
Yeah, NTCC has morphed around a bit over the years. I started BS in 1980 in St. Louis, and we were definitely beaten down on a routine basis. My experience was that the beating down half of the equation far exceeded any building up we received, and we were continually insulted and berated for having "GI syndrome" and other invented conditions.
When I graduated, I didn't feel conceited in the least; I was filled with the fear and uncertainty that was cultivated in me for three years. I didn't think I had any real answers and was more terrified of being a pretender than anything. RW told us that we'd received the best training on earth and were now qualified to shepherd the souls of men, but no amount of camouflage could conceal the fact that all we got was a shallow indoctrination and didn't really have a clue how to spiritually help other people. It was very stressful, because I didn't yet realize the emperor had no clothes.
RW was no psychologist, no matter how many lies he told about his alleged Ph.D. And the pastors I knew which engaged in blasting people from the pulpit (which I could never bring myself to do) were only imitating their idol, who was an expert at it.
Had I gone to BS in the 80's I wonder how long I would have lasted. If I did end up seeing through this trash in time I wonder if my temper would have landed me in prison.
Hy Anonymous,
I thought just the same over here in Germany! I would have run amok!
any blockbuster stuff going on? I haven't heard much since Ashmore left. That was awesome.
I think NTCC is small time these days. I see the graduating classes of a dozen people. They almost closed the Germany church. Nothing new or big has happened since before Davis died. They are trying to maintain what they have as it slowly erodes. Its like a product at the end of its lifecycle, yiu stop investing in it and try to pull out as much profit as possible.
Eric
No doubt they've already discovered creative ways to engage in private inurement over the years, but they're probably trying to figure out how to plunder the rest of their dying cash cow as it circles the bowl. Scientology has the same kind of problem on a way larger scale; they're swimming in assets but no one's really drinking the koolaid anymore so to avoid IRS problems they're forced to use the funds to build more facilities that no one will use. I wish the IRS would put NTCC under the microscope; it would probably take a forensic accountant about five minutes to discover major improprieties (otherwise known as "crimes").
Sorry I haven't responded in a while. I just wanted to give you something to ponder here. From what I can see in the scriptures it is not required of us to believe a miracle will happen in order to receive it ,unless God or a man of God ( with God backing him up) has said it would happen. I'm thinking of the woman who harassed Jesus and his disciples to have the devil cast out of her daughter. She clearly was not believing the miracle would happen. That is why she put so much effort into trying to convince Jesus to do the miracle. Yet, after Jesus did the miracle, he turned to her and said " oh woman great is your faith." Perhaps the reason Jesus waited so long to do the miracle was so that we could have this written record for our guidance. Reverend ashmore was a miracle junkie. I can remember him stating from the pulpit that you needed to believe the miracle would happen. And ,if you asked God for your miracle more than once that it was a lack of faith on your part. The record of this woman's harassment proves otherwise.
If God is a father , and I believe that he is, then we should consider that he has the rights of a father to say No! ,hold on a minute, or yes.
If you think about it ,if your ability to bring about a miracle were dependent solely upon the quantity or quality of your faith, then you have bragging rights when it happens. God doesn't give us bragging rights. He wants us to be humble before him.
If I could pose a question to all of the "faith healers" of the world ,it would be "What are you seeking?" I think all to often preachers want notoriety. This attitude is contrary to God. This is another proof of the incompetence of N.T.C.C.
We heard a lot about miracles at NTCC, but the only miracle I saw was that every now and then someone was able to escape its clutches.
That's funny. I seen women twitching around so much over some miracle faking spree, you'd think they were having an orgasm or something. Some fake mumbo jumbo if I ever seen it.
I remember one lady "believing God" for healing her diabetes; she went home and binged on Fruit Loops and Coke or something and wound up in the ED with insulin shock and nearly died.
That's no surprise Vic. I've watched people struggling financially after being brainwashed into believing it was better to give their money to the pastor than pay their bills. Same mindset as you referenced above. The NTCC has mastered the practice of teaching their converts to ignore all common sense and logic while at the same time making some of the most illogical decisions conceivable. It's real deal brainwashing. Mind control.
I remember in the gospels when Jesus told Thomas you have seen me and now you believe,but blessed are those who haven't seen me and believe.( I'm paraphrasing). I think this was because those people wanted to believe in Jesus. Their heart gravitated towards him more so than Thomas' .
Israel went through a time when there were no miracles happening. Maybe we are too. I don't know, but I do not judge my walk with God by the number of miracles in my life. I simply look to him to be my God and savior,and I strive every day to live right before him.
I've been to a few churches since I left n.t.c.c. They weren't any good either. They either had their doctrine all messed up, or , they were miracle junkies.
On a positive note,God hasn't gone anywhere. He is still in charge.I find that very comforting. And, yes ,I do still believe that miracles can happen. But, when they do happen it will be God leading a preacher around telling him to do this or that, and not the other way around. Jesus himself was kept on a very short leash.he was the fathers servant ,not the fathers boss.
I’m glad I left NTCC back in 2007 but I don’t recall them teaching that it was a sin for a woman to work. They did teach however that married women should not work.
So true
I’m so sorry, Diana, that you had to endure this type of treatment!
I was deeply involved with NTCC from 1982 through 1985, I was in the Fort Gordon Christian servicemen‘s home first when I was attending military school at Fort Gordon, where I met RW Davis, the founder of NTCC, as he would occasionally travel to the different servicemen‘s homes to fellowship. Then I was transferred to North Carolina, and I started attending the Fort Bragg Christian servicemen‘s home, where the pastor was a guy named Don Hummel, and when I found about his “unnatural” tendencies, sexually, I immediately left the entire organization (I was preparing to leave the US military and attend the seminary school in Graham Washington, as NTCC had just relocated from St. Louis Missouri out to Washington state). Departing the organization was extremely difficult, as Hummel and his wife at the time (which amazed me that he had a wife, but it turned out it was a marriage of convenience, and not a marriage in the traditional way), would visit Fort Bragg, and attempt to harass and verbally abuse me when they could find me on post (my punishment for leaving the organization - or was it punishment from Mr. Hummel, because he could not complete his sexual advances towards me? No one will ever really know the truth). Only after they were threatened with permanent removal from the base did they discontinue their attempts to contact me. My only regret is, I didn’t pull his wife to the side and explain to her the type of sexual behavior her husband was displaying.
I’m sure I’m not the only one with NTCC that has experienced abusive treatment, I’ve seen the comments above, but it would be nice to talk to all of the former NTCC members, and just discuss the past events and encourage each other regarding our future endeavors!
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