This was first posted on 3/22/09
Thread #7 The three paragraphs below were written by Mike Kekel in response to Sergeant First Class Johnson's inquiries.
I didn't include his entire response because it's quite long. I wanted to address these three paragraphs in particular because frankly they are insulting to anyone with the ability to think for themselves and rightly recall the way things truly were and are in the New Testament Christian Church. Mike Kekel has willfully misrepresented the facts as I will clearly illustrate in my response. Please read Mikes response to SFC Johnson and then below that read my response to Mike's statements.
Mike Kekel wrote:
1. My reply to your questions concerning my son playing sports is already on my blog, I think that I stated my reasons and the church’s stand on this quite plainly. Here’s the dictionary definition of lascivious (adjective) (of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire: he gave her a lascivious wink. I don’t think football pants apply here, because they are all padded, cover the knees and do not stimulate sexual desire. (Of course there are people who find feet stimulating for that matter, but those kinds of problems are within them.) When he played basketball (over three years ago, and people knew about it) he was covered below the knee with baggy pants and wore a shirt with sleeves under the tank top.
3. Don’t you find it interesting that Eric Hanna under whom you suffered such mistreatment, is no longer with us? The Organization would never have condoned the behavior you described. As under shepherds under the great Shepherd we will give an account of our works. The NTCC Seminary believes and teaches that the ministry is a sacred trust, and by definition is a life of service to God and people. Your issues are with Eric Hanna and his wife not NTCC. Did you ever report their behavior to a board member or overseer?
Chief's responses below to paragraph 1:
First I also looked up the word "Lascivious" in the dictionary and there were more definitions offered than Mike decided to calculatedly include. What that means is that Mike deliberately left out "other definitions" that were also listed in the dictionary. Here they are:
1. arousing desire: lascivious photographs 2. indicating sexual interest or expressive of lust or lewdness: a lascivious gesture
These additional definitions paint a different picture. How about the definition: "arousing desire." We have all seen football players in TIGHT football pants before; true? Butts, leg muscles and private parts tightly gripped by the pants reveling all the bodily curvature. Lets be real here; how many women do you suppose will find a man more sexually appealing in tight football pants verses a baggy set of overalls? Does that type of tight clothing not arouse sexual desire? Ask 20 women who aren't fake and see what their answer is? Mike your statement insults our intelligence. Women go crazy over guys in football pants and this is no mystery Mike. For the record, I could care less whether or not boys or men play football or for that matter I could care less about this whole lascivious issue. That is not my point. Anyone who has been in the New Testament Christian Church any length of time knows that at least 95% of the NTCC pastors to include RWD preached against the wearing of such tight clothing and they used the same logic that I just gave to support their claim. Every NTCC pastor that I ever had, (which was a total of 6) spoke or preached against this stuff and you know it Mike. Just admit that you want the old NTCC standards changed and stop being a liar because you know what you are saying is not true. You act like this stuff has been acceptable all along and that simply is not the case. Come on people, stop kidding yourselves because you know what I have written is true. Time to go to the next topic because this one is beginning to make me sick.
Chief's responses below to paragraphs 2 & 3:
You said the soul winning program was nothing like the one that he had under Hanna. Well Mike, apparently you forgot to tell that some of the other pastors. You also forgot that I sat in the conference where "YOU" talked about the blitz creek approach. Thats right, you taught it Mike. You made it like we were going to our very last battle and I remember that fact clearly. You also talked about knocking on "100" doors. Mike that is not exactly a leisurely walk in the park like you made it out to be in your previous paragraph. You also talk about giving 3 hours out of 168 and that approach is once again deliberately "Manipulative" Mike. Lets take a look at the 168 hours as if it is all free time. Estimated time may very: (7 hours a day for sleep = 49), (8 hours a day for work = 40), (1.5 hours a day just to drive back and forth for work = 7.5) and for many folks that is a conservative estimate, (2 more hours a day and this includes all meals to feed your face and feed your kids = 14), (1.5 hours a day times 5 just driving back in forth to all the NTCC church services and this is conservative because you can't forget all the folks that you always wanted us to pick up for church = 7.5), (yard work for those of us that have to take care of our own yards that haven't been told by you to sell our house to move all over the nation unlike you = 2), (being in church in the NTCC = approx 6 hours a week and that is conservative Mike after all the stuff that the NTCC would have you do and for most folks it probably = 10 hours). Lets add this up. 10+ 2+ 7.5+ 14+ 7.5+ 40+ 49= 130 and that was a very conservative estimate because add another 1 hour for sleep or figure in school time and school work if you are in the bible school and you would easily come to over 140 or even 150 hours spent a week before you even thought about soul winning. I just took a hugh chunk out of that 168 so you need to stop, as you said, "GUILT TRIPPING" folks into soul winning because that is exactly what you just did when you talked about 3 out of 168. It was a manipulative guilt trip tactic and you are just as bad as the ministers that you mentioned when you used that tactic Mike.
Also Mike you put it all on Denis and Hanna? That is weak! Hanna was your man and you know it and Denis isn't the one who placed him in Savannah and all the other places that Hanna pastored at. Hanna was a minister long before Denis was in charge. You all thought Hanna was great until he got tired of your mess. RWD had to approve every pastoral placement and you were involved also Mike. Not only that, I spent time around Denis and he was quite a bit like so many other pastors that I have seen in your organization to include your father in law. Who do you think taught Denis and placed him in all those positions Mike? Your father in law; the great founder of the NTCC. Don't blame Denis or Hanna, blame your father in law Mike. Get real.
Also Mike stated that: "The Organization would never have condoned the behavior you described." Then you asked: "Did you ever report their behavior to a board member or overseer?"
Chief wrote...
Also Mike stated that: "The Organization would never have condoned the behavior you described." Then you asked: "Did you ever report their behavior to a board member or overseer?"
Chief wrote...
The Organization does condone that type of behavior because I complained to three different overseers about Mayers who is way worse than Hanna by far and Mike Kekel even admitted to me that Mayers displays deplorable behavior as a pastor. Other pastors and overseers have made the same assessment and even talked about Mayers. So why is Mayers still in Atlanta? Because what Mike Kekel wrote is not true. I am not the only one who complained about Mayers; his helpers did also. What was done? Nothing because the first complaints starting coming to the NTCC leadership about Mayers at least as early as 2002 and the last that I knew Mayers was still a pastor in Atlanta and if he was removed today, the NTCC leadership waited 7 years too long. Cantrell complained, Bentley complained, and I complained to Jones, Kinson, and Denis.
Mr. Kekel, do you know what happened to me and my wife when we complained about an abusive pastor who even you have admitted is abusive? Your leadership blacklisted us and decided not to allow us to even attend conference after we had been going to conferences for years. Your leadership said that I couldn't even take up the offering in church (which doesn't mean jack anyway) and my wife couldn't play the piano which she is quite good at, and Olson questioned whether or not we should have even been allowed to attend fellowship meetings. That's where complaining about an abusive pastor got us Mr. Kekel. About 99% of the time anyone who complained about any pastor in the NTCC got blacklisted and you know it. Rev. Cantrell got in trouble for calling Graham and complaining about Mayers and Cantrell is a minister, so where does that put a "Lowly" church member with valid complaints when you won't even listen to your ministers? Do you know how many ministers and overseers had a problem with Denis? Mike, you had a problem with Denis and what happened to Denis? He got promoted. I rest my case. I was there when your father in law, Mr. RWD said openly in conference that if someone had a problem with one of his pastors they had a problem with him and if they had a problem with him they had a problem with GAWD. Who in the world would want to complain after hearing that statement. Mike you are fake and anyone reading this should be able to see that clearly. With your statements you are not being true to us nor are you being true to yourself because you know what goes on in the NTCC as well as anyone, and if you don't you are wrong because you are in charge.
Mike ought to be a politician because he makes all kinds of promises that he knows aren't true and doesn't intend to keep. Once again it was the NTCC leadership who put Denis in all those positions of authority. It certainly wasn't me who nominated Denis, it was the general board, and they wouldn't speak against Denis because they are all scared of old RWD. They were all afraid to speak a word against Denis so what kind of leadership is that? Sounds like the communist government to me and I am not exaggerating one bit. Everyone is so scared of old RWD and as a result no one will talk or complain against anyone so I don't even know why you asked that of SFC Johnson. Olson and RWD are all guilty of Denis having as much latitude as he did within the NTCC. Dispute that!!! Boy the truth hurts doesn't it? Every single solitary word that I just wrote is true. Matthew Reed had a problem with Denis, LD Jones had a problem with Denis, Mike Kekel had a problem with Denis. How do I know? Because they all told me they had a problem with Denis. So what is wrong with this picture? Just like I said; you are all scared of RWD and as a result filing a complaint against anyone in your organization does no good (with few exceptions) so I don't even know why you suggested such a thing.
Once again I rest my case.
Chief
46 comments:
Mike Kekel said this…
The team leaders are restricted to this, and constantly reminded not to guilt trip people into giving more than 3 hours of the 168 hours in a week. Soul-winning should be an act of love for God, not an Egyptian slave-drive.
That statement reminds me of why I left ntcc. The truth is more like I had 3 hours of free time and 168 hours of guilt tripping.
The end…
Here are my thoughts on this:
1. Soul-winning is mandatory for ministers, like I was. In the 20 or so years we went door to door, I can't remember ONE person who is in the church because of it. It's an abject failure and doesn't work. And on top of that, you had to wear a suit, which is like wearing a neon sign saying you're coming!! I remember years of frustration at door to door, because I would work hard to get someone to come out, just to have the preacher being a total jerk in pulpit and run them off. It's pure stupidity if you ask me. At least the Mormons treat you good, if you do go out.
2. When I got back from Puerto Rico, Kekel told me I could join whichever soul-winning group I wanted. I studied all of the "team leaders" one Saturday, and only liked one-- Rev. Pelicia, because he is a nice, humble guy. The rest guilt-tripped everyone, lack even basic leadership skills, and really turned me off.
3. Jeff, great points. Kekel is trying to rewrite history, when many of us were there when the "history" took place. He is either delusional, blind, or knowingly lying about the whole situation. Someone from ntcc needs to explain why Mayers is STILL pastoring when they make it clear they do not condone his actions. Their ations don't match their words.
I encourage you all to go on blast to Mike Kekel's personal blog on the defunct NTCC website.
Seems like that is the only thing people look at anyway, somehow it has over 11,000 hits. I can see how that happens, all a select few need to do is log on a few times a day and the numbers will add up, it is not like it is a popular site or anything.
It seemed to irritate him when people left him emails on the blog that he screens, so keep up the pressure!!!
I would love to find out what he preached at the Graham compound over the weekend!!
MLJ
Why would you need to remind ministers not to GUILT TRIP anyone?
Jeff,
The tactic of making one feel guilty was a constant force employed by some pastors. I can recall on several occasions this being used. It seems in the beginning it’s always about God’s love but ultimately it always turned into some form of control.
NTCC never let God do his job. The way I see it, they always without exception, became a mediator between you and your maker. I know this has all been said before but I guess it never stops amazing me.
Larry
ntcc tries to sugar coat there guilts trips. In pretending it is God convicting them. Go to a conference. Rw get up there and BASH computer's. Once said that there was no need for a computer. If folks said they had it for e-mails. They were just deluded, You leave those service's. And I would cringe. Thinking,does my husband now have this fake conviction once again. So many time's we were going to get rid of our computer. I would remind him of the good that we used it for,Sunday school,staying in touch with family.... So the subject would get dropped. Until the next time rw would get up there and BASH comptuers.
Mike K. it was not just rw's opinion that he personally did not need a computer. He bashed,bashed,bashed and bashed computers. Sure it is even in folks note's! Which is hard to research. I got my note's. But reading them,makes me puke a little bit each time!!!
CM
Mr. Kekel,
Thank you for responding to my questions. A few notations, if you please:
I still have an issue with football in regards to your son. I know it is natural to come to the defense of your son as I would with my two sons and you and I are both fathers. My issue Mr. Kekel is that sports was preached against by Rev Davis, and every pastor I have ever had in NTCC, even under Hanna who split Grahamsville. In particular, football was blasted from the pulpit as being immoral, immodest, and a place where one would not care to be due to the worldly influences of readily available beer and cheerleaders wearing immodest attire. You and I both know that most women salivate over a guy wearing football tights as it reveals the curvature of the body and exposes the loins, thighs and legs of a man. Most older boys and men in these contact sportshave well developed muscles, this is no secret either and is a result of their fitness and repetitive exercise of their calves, legs and thighs. aka, Rugby.
Men like to watch football due to the Violence of the matter. It is a He-Man contact sport, and it is violent. I do not know if Christ would condone such activity. I fail to see Jesus wearing pads to better himself and become more well rounded. I do see Jesus doing the will of the Father. Would that include going to football games? Maybe, but I cannot see Christ suiting up as a Gladiator and slicing up lions (that would be considered the football of it's day, and if you lost, you died or were eaten by lions).
As a Man of God, I would think your more responsible to set a godly standard to the flock, not to heard the sheep of Christ towards a cliff. On the contrary, the only time you would go towards a cliff would be to pluck that ONE sheep that went astray.
Sir, you wrote:
"As for Rev. Davis’ degrees, I’ve never asked him about them. He has never touted them, and they really have never mattered to me. His life and work are all the proof of his ministry that I need".
Is the blind leading the blind here? I believe that Rev Davis has an obligation to the congregation to have on file his credititials. The only Man that this would not apply to would be the Christ. If he never touted them, maybe he does not have them, or ever had them? I understand life experiences count to a point, but I have life experiences that count for something as well. I have drowned twice. I fell asleep at the wheel prior to joining the Army and woke up just in time. I was an orphan at birth and went through numerous foster homes until I was adopted at age five. I under went physical, mental, and emotional abuse prior to the tender age of five years of age, and somehow, God put my life together. However, even these traumatic experiences are not enough to qualify me for anything. I am not trying to go off of hypothetical s, but Sir how can you follow a man whose Degrees you have never seen. What happens when you go for a job interview? You pull out your credentials.
Something you may not realize is that I cannot use the Army GI Bill if I wanted to attend your Bible College. That is because your organization is not accredited by the United States Government. I brought this to a four star general's attention back in 1996, you may recall a General Reimer? A man who HAS credentials. A man whom God blessed and promoted within the ranks. I had the good fortune to meet him in 1997 when he visted Korea. I told him that I wanted to go to Bible College but I could not use the G I Bill because the College is not accredited. When I brought this to Rev MacDonald's attention, he told me to just forget about it. So I left it alone.
Sir, If your organization is not accredited by the U.S. Government, then your are monetarily depriving young service men and women of the opportunity to use their hard earn benefits to attend your Seminary, when OTHER Schools of theology and divinity ARE accredited, are recognized by the Government, and accept GI Bill funds.
Is your semenary issuing useless Minstorial liscences to men and women thinking that, if they have your diploma issued by the Print Shop, that that is good enough to preach? Please enlighten me.
Sir, you stated that,
"You stated that ʻdrovesʼ are leaving the church and organization and quite frankly, though many love to say that, it is not true. I know where that misinformation comes from. Those who say such things remind me of the invasion of Iraq, when Sadaam Husseinʼs Officer publicly declared that they had the Americans surrounded, at the very moment Saddamʼs statue was being pulled down. People come and go in all churches, thatʼs to be expected. After everyone had walked away from Him, Jesus had to ask the disciples “will ye go away also?” The Lord is still saving, healing, filling with the Holy Ghost and calling men and women to the ministry. New churches are being opened, and those churches that had been damaged by the HOP break off are being, or have been restored. NTCC has not changed itʼs adherence to the Biblical teachings of separation from the world, and of a Spirit filled, crucified life for all believers".
Sir,
You are correct about a cruicified life. Most folks I talk to cannot pay the bills or have the rent for that matter. I have read reports of numerous preachers who have left NTCC with not a dime in their pockets. I mean, they are broke but yet they report that you live a life of luxery, that you attend bluegrass festivals, that select few take off to spend a week at disneyland. Folks are disgruntled to see the leadership and Members of the Board always talking about money, spending that money, and asking for more in the offering plate. Folks talk that you have a position of priviledge due to being the son in law of Rev Davis. I guess it is what it is, when I was in the organization I gave and their was not a lot left over for me many times. Thank God for the Army meal card. It was the only thing that got me through. The good think about starving is that it forces you to be thankful for the little things.
Sir, while in Korea as a Sergeant my monetary sacrifice caused me suffering that I guess made me a better person. When I did not get paid on time, one week all I had to eat was a bowl of grits. I had to dig through trash to find food. I could not go to Rev MacDonald and state, Sir, can you spot me $100?? I had to, as we say in the Army, "acquire" food. But I gave in the offerings. I ensure I paid my tithe. But should there be a limit to how much I give??
Sir, you stated,
"The soul-winning program taught and implemented here in Graham, WA is nothing like you had under Hanna. He did what R. Denis told him to do, even back then. We have a two-hour soul-winning on Saturday, sometimes 3 for door-knocking days. That doesn’t include travel, but still it is short. It is made known that this is voluntary for church members, but students and ministers of course, are expected to be there. There is a voluntary (for all) soul-winning on weeknights in which a small group participates. We do not practice public humiliation of people for soul-winning inefficiencies or participation. The team leaders are restricted to this, and constantly reminded not to guilt trip people into giving more than 3 hours of the 168 hours in a week. Soul-winning should be an act of love for God, not an Egyptian slave-drive".
Sir, everywhere I go Soul winning is all we did, every day, even after serice, with every preacher I EVER had, all in the name of getting someone to church to boost numbers. My contacts even felt used or blasted and never came back after a few times. I had no time for family. My relationship with my wife suffered, and this is ANYWHERE I have ever attended. This happend EVERYWHERE!!!! Team leaders guilt trip all the time, and you know it. You also know that this is not correct. I ran the tires off of my car. Did the church replace my tires? NO. Did Rev Belamay or Rev Gandy or Rev Devenshire give me gas money? NO!! Did I fell used? ALL THE TIME. What did they state" Brother, you need to bring more people to church!!" What Rev Belamay did do was berate me in front of the chruch claiming in a joking matter that I could not keep count, when, to be truthfull, his wife could not sing nor play the piano. And he blames me, I had only been the song leader for over six years. Then I get "corrected" by Rev Devenshire for going soul winning in an area close to Fort Riley, KS (Manhattan) at the mall, that I should focus on Fort Riley. It was such a joke. It got to the point that all I did was go through the motions, because I KNEW that the ministers did not care.
Sir, you wrote:
"Donʼt you find it interesting that Eric Hanna under whom you suffered such
mistreatment, is no longer with us? The Organization would never have condoned the
behavior you described. As under shepherds under the great Shepherd we will give an
account of our works. The NTCC Seminary believes and teaches that the ministry is a
sacred trust, and by definition is a life of service to God and people. Your issues are
with Eric Hanna and his wife not NTCC. Did you ever report their behavior to a board
member or overseer? Your descriptions of child abuse are appalling and if they are going on should be reported with names and details of these occurrences. The Seminary and Pastor Davis has always taught that a Pastor should never discipline someone else’s child, and that even step parents should not physically discipline a step child, so if youʼve witnessed behavior different from this, it isnʼt condoned by the Organization".
Then Sir, why was Eric Hanna with the organization for so long? My issue is not with Eric Hanna, but with NTCC. Do not try to wash your hands clean because of a defunctive minister, one of many, in your organization. YOU are in charge, YOU need to take responsibility for the actions of your ministers, Sir. You can't pan that off on Hanna. The last thing I want to do is contact him and get harrassed on the phone again. There needs to be a leadership change. Harry Truman stated Sir, that the Buck stops Here. Are you so far removed from your organization that you fail to take responsibility not only for yourself, but for your fellow men of the cloth? History always demands accountablity for injustices handed out.
Sir, on the contrary,
Reports of child abuse HAVE been reported. Ask ALL the ex NTCC'ers whom you talked to as the "Whirlwind" on Factnet. Why doesn't the Organization take responsiblity for the actions of their members? Are you so far out of touch with reality in the name of making a dollar, Sir??
Sir, you stated:
"Another of your issues was concerning a Tithe receipt with which to claim a charitable deduction on your income taxes; According to the IRS tax code, it is not required that churches provide receipts, but may if people request them, and so they are routinely provided for our members, but Iʼm not sure why you didnʼt receive one, did you ever ask?"
Yes, Sir, I did asked and my requests were ignored. the way I see it, I could have received MORE money back to give to God, so much for wanting to be a blessing to the work of God.
Respectfully,
Bro Johnson
SFC Johnson:
I salute you and I am not being dramatic when I make that statement. I have a tremendous amount of respect you having served in the same profession as many of us have for so long. I often wish I was still on active duty and I often regret retiring when I did. The good thing is I now work on Ft. Benning and it makes me feel good to be around soldiers.
Now about your post: You said an awful lot that should open the eyes of many. I usually like to add something to such a good post however there is really not much more that someone could say. Buddy you told it like it is. I do want to comment on one particular point that you touched on.
You talked about the NTCC bible college. What I am about to quote comes directly, word for word, from an NTC Seminary transcript that someone faxed to me and I quote:
"Due to our intent to train disciples strictly for the church ministry within our churches, we do not offer nor purport to offer any training which could be construed in any way by a participant therein as preparatory for any occupation, secular of otherwise, or for any advancement within another institution, religious or otherwise, outside of the New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. Neither does this Institution offer nor purport to offer a degree or any other credentials qualifying participants for any position or occupation outside of our churches."
Signed, Mike Kekel.
SFC Johnson: The disclaimer that I just posted, that came directly from a NTCS Transcript, is absolutely ludicrous.
Let me try and make sure that everyone who reads this blog fully understands exactly what this disclaimer means. In short it means that the NTCC wants you, and any other religious institution, or any potential employer to know that their transcript is worth no more than a single square of toilet paper that you wiped your butt with and flushed down the toilet.
What the NTCC is saying is don't even think or consider the use of this transcript helpful to you in ANY WAY if you ever decide to look for a job or leave our church.
What the NTCC is also saying is that if you do leave our church, the four years of your life that you invested in attendance at our seminary, will have been absolutely worthless and here is the important part; so we could make sure this transcript is worthless we deliberately put a disclaimer on our transcript to make it useless to ANYONE, but the NTCC.
My friends; that is exactly what is being said within the disclaimer and I thank God that I never attended their thoroughly self satisfying seminary because their transcript is certainly not intended to provide any satisfaction to the person who receives it.
Jeff Collins.
CM said...
The NTCC tries to sugar coat their guilt trips in pretending it is God convicting them.
Jeff said...
Preach Sister. Girl you said it like it is. That is exactly what the NTCC does.
I had a pastor that called the internet the devilnet right before he went out and bought a laptop. What a joke. One day he and I had a discussion where he tried to convince me that the internet was so bad. I told him that you could install a pop-up blocker if you were worried about garbage just popping up on your screen. I also said just like I could avoid looking at porn magazines in the grocery store, I could avoid looking at the same stuff on the computer as long is I didn't search for it or click on it. It's the truth. I guessed he changed his mind when he found out that Kekel had half the other ministers in the NTCC had finally broke down and started using a computer themselves.
A pastor couldn't even have a computer in the serviceman's home because he was ordered to use one of those old sorry word processors and this continued for almost 2 decades after PC's became quite useful and effective. It was just another stupid, knee jerk rule that the NTCC leadership failed to attach any logic to.
Good to hear from you CM.
Talk to you later,
Jeff
"Due to our intent to train disciples strictly for the church ministry within our churches, we do not offer nor purport to offer any training which could be construed in any way by a participant therein as preparatory for any occupation, secular of otherwise, or for any advancement within another institution, religious or otherwise, outside of the New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. Neither does this Institution offer nor purport to offer a degree or any other credentials qualifying participants for any position or occupation outside of our churches."
Signed, Mike Kekel".
So, in other words, the folks that teach these classes' credentials are poppycock!!
There are no established creditials, so they teach out of the Dake Bible.
Oh, My God what a farce!!
Wow. Rev MacDonald showed me his transcripts one time. He made straight A's. But, that does not mean anything now, does it??
Thanks Brother Jeff!! This is the smoking gun. Can you please send this to Tracy on the other Blog?? This is front page news here!!
Bro Johnson
SFC Johnson:
A agree with you. I thought this was quite significant. I don't have time to re-post it because I have to get to work right now. If you would like you could copy, paste and re-post. Talk to you later my friend,
Jeff.
ALL,
MC KEKEL RESPONDS TO MY LATEST EMAIL. HE CALLS TP BLOG A SEPTIC TANK, READ ON!!!!!!
YOUR THOUGHTS??
YES, I AM IN ALL CAPS, IT IS WORTH SHOUTING ABOUT!!!
BRO JOHNSON
SFC Johnson,
I do appreciate your concerns and hopefully good intentions. We will never agree of course, and both have the right to agreeably disagree. In closing our dialogue I will give you a few brief insights, receive them as you wish. I will tell you this, TP's blog is a septic tank, and you will never think properly listening to those people over there, bless their hearts. Now, my son's school has no cheerleaders and they play in a very sportsmanlike manner, as it is a private school. There is no tolerance of alcohol or tobacco, mistreatment, etc. And, that's my call isn't it? If you can't trust me to make my own judgment calls, then no one can make them for me. Sports were allowed years ago, and discouraged for awhile. I told you already, some people such as Hanna are almost militant in their dictatorships, but they weren't taught to be and again, Pastor never set such POLICIES as bible doctrines. Those who say so, needed to listen more closely when they were taught. If anyone has preached against sports as sin, they are just wrong. Pastor never did. I disagree with your opinions about the football, and it's not a bible issue anyway, so let "every man be persuaded in his own mind." Ladies walk around all the time with their calves exposed, and their's are more sexually appealing than any man's, I hope you would agree.
Pastor does have a degree, but Jesus, Elijah and the school of prophets under him, and the Apostles didn't have any. I Cor. teaches that God didn't choose the intellects of the world, and sorry, that's just not a big issue with us. I'll take Pastor any day, over those whose stuff you're reading. It is a big issue however, to those who wish to discredit him and his ministry, but the results are the proof of his apostleship. As for GI bill tuition, it is not allowed because the Seminary won't LET you use it. Because the students are expected to WORK their way through. If they had a thousand grants, they can't use them here. You would have to have a job, if you were a millionaire, to go to bible school. This is because of the character value, you understand.
We are authorized by the government to issue licenses, and the call of God is what makes a REAL preacher (you have evidently experienced some fake ones)
You wrote:
I have read reports of numerous preachers who have left NTCC with not a dime in their pockets. I mean, they are broke but yet they report that you live a life of luxery, that you attend bluegrass festivals, that select few take off to spend a week at disneyland. Folks are disgruntled to see the leadership and Members of the Board always talking about money, spending that money, and asking for more in the offering plate. Folks talk that you have a position of priviledge due to being the son in law of Rev Davis. I guess it is what it is, when I was in the organization I gave and their was not a lot left over for me many times. Thank God for the Army meal card. It was the only thing that got me through. The good think about starving is that it forces you to be thankful for the little things.
You are definitely a TPHEAD. None of this trash is true, but you believe them? You said it right, "Folks are disgruntled." I don't live a life of luxury, but God has blessed me and I'm thankful. Those people are broke because of their financial irresponsibility, not because of tithe. And no one is always 'passing the plate.' In fact, I've found that most of the people like that never were big givers. It's voluntary anyway, nothing is ever said to them about it. When I started out for God, I also had nothing. I believe in an ethic called work, and spending control. A lot of what I have, I built with my hands and lots of help. Anyone could have gone to Disneyland if they wanted to, that's their problem Sarge. I never took ANY vacations until I had been in the ministry over 15 years, and when I do, it's on my dime. Is there something wrong with vacations? I didn't neglect the ministry to do it, so that settles that issue.
Our board meetings are about God mostly. Now Pastor tried to teach some of those people you are following, how to save and take care of themselves like the bible commands. Some of them were part owners in companies, why were they always broke? There are now many ministers who have homes, children, money, nice things, which they worked for. Some though, are broke. Why? They sat in the same classes, and had the same opportunites. I gave and still give, like you, thousands of dollars, even when I couldn't. I stepped out in faith, and paid my tithe when it was my last dollar, and God never failed me. If people don't like the fact that God has blessed me, bless their greedy little hearts. Brother, if they would do good, they would be accepted also.
As for soul winning, I told you about OURS here. Those men weren't taught to be dumb, and if they are, they will answer to God for it. No one should be used, and no soul winning should be done for any other reason than concern for a lost soul. Anyway, I guess you don't believe my words, but God knows and I know. I wish you could stand back and see what's behind all the things you have heard and read. They're only trying to discredit others, such as Pastor and me, not to show the truth, but to do the work of the evil one. Even if NTCC was guilty of all their sayings, (which it isn't) the sin of reviling is still wrong. Let me remind you once more, I don't read it and I don't care what they say. My blog is not about them and their heart problems, it's about Jesus and the blessings of God, and I will not allow them to turn a great thing into another dumpster. Have a good week, and God bless you. I will keep you in my prayers, and hope to meet you one day.
> From: michael.l.johnson1@us.army.mil
> To: mckekel@hotmail.com
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 04:44:11 -0400
> Subject:
>
> Mr. Kekel,
>
> Thank you for responding to my questions. A few notations, if you please:
>
> "My reply to your questions concerning my son playing sports is already on my blog, I think that I stated my reasons, and the churchʼs stand on this quite plainly. Hereʼs the dictionary definition of lascivious (adjective) (of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire : he gave her a lascivious wink. I donʼt think football pants apply here, because they are all padded, cover the knees and do not stimulate sexual desire. (Of course there are people who find feet stimulating for that matter, but those kinds of problems are within them.) When he played basketball (over three years ago, and people knew about it) he was covered below the knee with baggy pants and wore a shirt with sleeves under the tank top".
>
> I still have an issue with football in regards to your son. I know it is natural to come to the defense of your son as I would with my two sons and you and I are both fathers. My issue Mr. Kekel is that sports was preached against by Rev Davis, and every pastor I have ever had in NTCC, even under Hanna who split Grahamsville. In particular, football was blasted from the pulpit as being immoral, immodest, and a place where one would not care to be due to the worldly influences of readily available beer and cheerleaders wearing immodest attire. You and I both know that most women salivate over a guy wearing football tights as it reveals the curvature of the body and exposes the loins, thighs and legs of a man. Most older boys and men in these contact sportshave well developed muscles, this is no secret either and is a result of their fitness and repetitive exercise of their calves, legs and thighs. aka, Rugby.
>
> Men like to watch football due to the Violence of the matter. It is a He-Man contact sport, and it is violent. I do not know if Christ would condone such activity. I fail to see Jesus wearing pads to better himself and become more well rounded. I do see Jesus doing the will of the Father. Would that include going to football games? Maybe, but I cannot see Christ suiting up as a Gladiator and slicing up lions (that would be considered the football of it's day, and if you lost, you died or were eaten by lions).
>
> As a Man of God, I would think your more responsible to set a godly standard to the flock, not to heard the sheep of Christ towards a cliff. On the contrary, the only time you would go towards a cliff would be to pluck that ONE sheep that went astray.
>
> Sir, you wrote:
>
> "As for Rev. Davis’ degrees, I’ve never asked him about them. He has never touted them, and they really have never mattered to me. His life and work are all the proof of his ministry that I need".
>
> Is the blind leading the blind here? I believe that Rev Davis has an obligation to the congregation to have on file his credititials. The only Man that this would not apply to would be the Christ. If he never touted them, maybe he does not have them, or ever had them? I understand life experiences count to a point, but I have life experiences that count for something as well. I have drowned twice. I fell asleep at the wheel prior to joining the Army and woke up just in time. I was an orphan at birth and went through numerous foster homes until I was adopted at age five. I under went physical, mental, and emotional abuse prior to the tender age of five years of age, and somehow, God put my life together. However, even these traumatic experiences are not enough to qualify me for anything. I am not trying to go off of hypothetical s, but Sir how can you follow a man whose Degrees you have never seen. What happens when you go for a job interview? You pull out your credentials.
>
> Something you may not realize is that I cannot use the Army GI Bill if I wanted to attend your Bible College. That is because your organization is not accredited by the United States Government. I brought this to a four star general's attention back in 1996, you may recall a General Reimer? A man who HAS credentials. A man whom God blessed and promoted within the ranks. I had the good fortune to meet him in 1997 when he visted Korea. I told him that I wanted to go to Bible College but I could not use the G I Bill because the College is not accredited. When I brought this to Rev MacDonald's attention, he told me to just forget about it. So I left it alone.
>
> Sir, If your organization is not accredited by the U.S. Government, then your are monetarily depriving young service men and women of the opportunity to use their hard earn benefits to attend your Seminary, when OTHER Schools of theology and divinity ARE accredited, are recognized by the Government, and accept GI Bill funds.
>
> Is your semenary issuing useless Minstorial liscences to men and women thinking that, if they have your diploma issued by the Print Shop, that that is good enough to preach? Please enlighten me.
>
> Sir, you stated that,
>
> "You stated that ʻdrovesʼ are leaving the church and organization and quite frankly, though many love to say that, it is not true. I know where that misinformation comes from. Those who say such things remind me of the invasion of Iraq, when Sadaam Husseinʼs Officer publicly declared that they had the Americans surrounded, at the very moment Saddamʼs statue was being pulled down. People come and go in all churches, thatʼs to be expected. After everyone had walked away from Him, Jesus had to ask the disciples “will ye go away also?” The Lord is still saving, healing, filling with the Holy Ghost and calling men and women to the ministry. New churches are being opened, and those churches that had been damaged by the HOP break off are being, or have been restored. NTCC has not changed itʼs adherence to the Biblical teachings of separation from the world, and of a Spirit filled, crucified life for all believers".
>
> Sir,
>
> You are correct about a cruicified life. Most folks I talk to cannot pay the bills or have the rent for that matter. I have read reports of numerous preachers who have left NTCC with not a dime in their pockets. I mean, they are broke but yet they report that you live a life of luxery, that you attend bluegrass festivals, that select few take off to spend a week at disneyland. Folks are disgruntled to see the leadership and Members of the Board always talking about money, spending that money, and asking for more in the offering plate. Folks talk that you have a position of priviledge due to being the son in law of Rev Davis. I guess it is what it is, when I was in the organization I gave and their was not a lot left over for me many times. Thank God for the Army meal card. It was the only thing that got me through. The good think about starving is that it forces you to be thankful for the little things.
>
> Sir, while in Korea as a Sergeant my monetary sacrifice caused me suffering that I guess made me a better person. When I did not get paid on time, one week all I had to eat was a bowl of grits. I had to dig through trash to find food. I could not go to Rev MacDonald and state, Sir, can you spot me $100?? I had to, as we say in the Army, "acquire" food. But I gave in the offerings. I ensure I paid my tithe. But should there be a limit to how much I give??
>
> Sir, you stated,
>
> "The soul-winning program taught and implemented here in Graham, WA is nothing like you had under Hanna. He did what R. Denis told him to do, even back then. We have a two-hour soul-winning on Saturday, sometimes 3 for door-knocking days. That doesn’t include travel, but still it is short. It is made known that this is voluntary for church members, but students and ministers of course, are expected to be there. There is a voluntary (for all) soul-winning on weeknights in which a small group participates. We do not practice public humiliation of people for soul-winning inefficiencies or participation. The team leaders are restricted to this, and constantly reminded not to guilt trip people into giving more than 3 hours of the 168 hours in a week. Soul-winning should be an act of love for God, not an Egyptian slave-drive".
>
> Sir, everywhere I go Soul winning is all we did, every day, even after serice, with every preacher I EVER had, all in the name of getting someone to church to boost numbers. My contacts even felt used or blasted and never came back after a few times. I had no time for family. My relationship with my wife suffered, and this is ANYWHERE I have ever attended. This happend EVERYWHERE!!!! Team leaders guilt trip all the time, and you know it. You also know that this is not correct. I ran the tires off of my car. Did the church replace my tires? NO. Did Rev Belamay or Rev Gandy or Rev Devenshire give me gas money? NO!! Did I fell used? ALL THE TIME. What did they state" Brother, you need to bring more people to church!!" What Rev Belamay did do was berate me in front of the chruch claiming in a joking matter that I could not keep count, when, to be truthfull, his wife could not sing nor play the piano. And he blames me, I had only been the song leader for over six years. Then I get "corrected" by Rev Devenshire for going soul winning in an area close to Fort Riley, KS (Manhattan) at the mall, that I should focus on Fort Riley. It was such a joke. It got to the point that all I did was go through the motions, because I KNEW that the ministers did not care.
>
> Sir, you wrote:
>
> "Donʼt you find it interesting that Eric Hanna under whom you suffered such
> mistreatment, is no longer with us? The Organization would never have condoned the
> behavior you described. As under shepherds under the great Shepherd we will give an
> account of our works. The NTCC Seminary believes and teaches that the ministry is a
> sacred trust, and by definition is a life of service to God and people. Your issues are
> with Eric Hanna and his wife not NTCC. Did you ever report their behavior to a board
> member or overseer? Your descriptions of child abuse are appalling and if they are going on should be reported with names and details of these occurrences. The Seminary and Pastor Davis has always taught that a Pastor should never discipline someone else’s child, and that even step parents should not physically discipline a step child, so if youʼve witnessed behavior different from this, it isnʼt condoned by the Organization".
>
> Then Sir, why was Eric Hanna with the organization for so long? My issue is not with Eric Hanna, but with NTCC. Do not try to wash your hands clean because of a defunctive minister, one of many, in your organization. YOU are in charge, YOU need to take responsibility for the actions of your ministers, Sir. You can't pan that off on Hanna. The last thing I want to do is contact him and get harrassed on the phone again. There needs to be a leadership change. Harry Truman stated Sir, that the Buck stops Here. Are you so far removed from your organization that you fail to take responsibility not only for yourself, but for your fellow men of the cloth? History always demands accountablity for injustices handed out.
>
> Sir, on the contrary,
>
> Reports of child abuse HAVE been reported. Ask ALL the ex NTCC'ers whom you talked to as the "Whirlwind" on Factnet. Why doesn't the Organization take responsiblity for the actions of their members? Are you so far out of touch with reality in the name of making a dollar, Sir??
>
> Sir, you stated:
>
> "Another of your issues was concerning a Tithe receipt with which to claim a charitable deduction on your income taxes; According to the IRS tax code, it is not required that churches provide receipts, but may if people request them, and so they are routinely provided for our members, but Iʼm not sure why you didnʼt receive one, did you ever ask?"
>
> Yes, Sir, I did asked and my requests were ignored. the way I see it, I could have received MORE money back to give to God, so much for wanting to be a blessing to the work of God.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Bro Johnson
I only have a short time in which to write a LOT! So I'll do my best.
I suppose first I'll address the soul winning. When I was a teen, even in Graham, on two weekday mornings there was a lady's prayer meeting, after which the ladies would all scramble for the day old bread donated to us (probably because many, like us, couldn't afford to actually go and buy bread at $3 a loaf that week because all their money had been spent on gas to get to church services, prayer meetings, and soulwinning that was required of us all). Then the women would all pair off, and we would all go "soul winning." As ladies, it was not deemed safe for us to knock on random doors, so we were sent out to the grocery stores (which often was the only time my mother and her partner had that week to do their grocery shopping, so they took advantage of that) and the mall. On Saturdays, we had 1/2 hour prayer meeting, followed by 1/2 hour talking, usually by Rev. Kekel, followed by 15 minutes coordination with my parent's lay pastor, followed by 2 hours or so of knocking on doors, after we first drove to our assigned area. After those 2 hours were done, we would all meet up with our lay paster at a predetermined place to talk about our day, and to eat lunch. Often we would go back out for another hour. Now what do you think I was doing during this time? Rev. Kekel made it very clear that we were not to be going out 1 at a time, or 3x3... we were to be going 2x2. So. I sat in the car this entire time, because my presence would have added a third person. I finally got sick and tired of this, and asked Reverend Kekel to assign me a partner. I was extremely shy and probably would not have been able to stammer out a hello at the door, but anything was better than sitting in the car for up to 4 hours on a Saturday morning. He went to my dad and asked him if I was a Christian. Now granted, I was 17, and going through a bit of a rebellious stage, but I believed, and still do, that I had a walk with God, and just needed to walk with him a little closer. My dad said he didn't know and outlined the mistakes I'd been making and the rebellious attitude I sometimes had. So, Reverend Kekel told me no, I couldn't be assigned a partner until I got right with God. Now, I was in every single service, was at every single prayer meeting, and every single soul-winning session. I "got in" at church, I really tried to feel God's presence wherever I was, and prayed and read my bible, but this man decided I wasn't right with God, without even talking to me about it first. He only talked to my dad. I was so broken up over my apparent lack of a relationship with God, it really staggered my faith and I didn't know what to do. I felt that I was doing everything I'd been taught.
Okay, I'm done with that for the moment.
The next issue I have thoughts on is this lasciviousness thing. There are two issues that have been addressed with football. The players themselves, and the cheerleaders. I don't know about you, but every time I go to the gas station, there are multiple magazines with ladies in short skirts and skimpy tops. Cheerleaders wear little itty bitty panties that only cover half their butts, so there's very little left to the imagination when they bend over and put their hands on the ground with their legs spread (sorry for the visual, but really, MK.. you can't figure this out? This is the same stuff the teen cheerleaders wear in high school... would you want your daughter to be a cheerleader?). They wear skimpy little tops that do barely enough to cover their breasts, and they certainly show enough skin - the entire leg, their belly, everything that isn't a private part, and even those are scantily clad. Then you take these skimpily clad girls and you watch them do the sexiest shimmy they can come up with, that falls just short of literally humping eachother, and you think this is okay to go watch? Umm... hello... doesn't every man have some form of the cheerleader fantasy? Moving away from the girls, the boys really aren't that bad off. I'm not a butt or leg person, but even I can see that every single outline of muscle is being shown through those shorts. So lets stop kidding ourselves and playing around with words, and just face facts. You let your son play in a game wearing clothes that the NTCC has condemned, and you have put him in a position for his thoughts to not be right with God, because who's thinking about God when you've got a hot cheerleader shimmying and thrusting her hips in front of you.
JM
SFC Johnson. Kekel is living in denial and he is willfully misrepresenting the NTCC. Kekel is a liar, plain and simple. I read what you posted and what bothers me the most is how Kekel can deny the things that were taught by RWD as if they never even happened. Buddy I was in the conferences and heard RWD and Kekel is not telling the truth.
I've talked enough about Kekel for now because it is sickening to read the responses that he sent you and his statements are false. Mr. Kekel is a seriously deranged guy for sure.
Jeff.
Brother Jeff,
Now MCK is on damage control, he sent this eamil to me today:
BRO Johnson
SFC, one more thing. Forgive me, but I didn't read the end of your email, and didn't cover it, I apologize. You stand corrected, because I was not in charge, the ministers are not mine, nor am I now in charge. Maybe someday I might, if God wills, but it matters not to me and never has. I already explained to you how Hanna remained, but you didn't get it unfortunately. There was no child abuse reported, which is the same as reporting it to the wrong people.
Now concerning the Whirlwind thing, let me make a few quick points. At that time, almost all were posting anonymously, including Ryan and Sarah Dejongue, Veronica Medina, and even the Pelfreys and MKLO, who still doesn't use his name, and others. I wasn't being attacked, Pastor was, and I stood up for him, unlike others, because I knew they were liars, having been an eyewitness to many of the discussed situations. The only reason the identity of Whirlwind was an issue, was the nature of the disclosures, which revealed the stark truth about the people senselessly attacking my Pastor. I wasn't defending myself.
In the midst of this, I felt it was inappropriate to behave like them, and apologized and bowed out. That part, of course, they don't like to include in their postings of Whirlwind's words. Something else that is always omitted and was even deleted from Factnet's postings was the cursing I received from Vic's daughter. The sixth letter of the alphabet got a workout that day. That's the only reason for Vic's vendetta against Whirlwind, who's motto was "1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? (Job 38:1-2) because their words were definitely without knowledge.
That started, when Vic said his children were so much better since they were out of NTCC's influence, and I simply asked about the rumored illigiitimacy of his Grandchild. This part is excluded from their discussions for obvious and biased reasons. It was said to be untrue, but all you need do is ask him the dates of wedding and birth to verify, if you like. There was no attack of his daughter involved, and really it's not your business or mine. Just wanted to clear that up, so you won't buy into the spin. You needn't reply, just wanted to add that explanation which before God, is the truth. Now you know, the REST of the story. Good day!
Once again Whirlwind rears his ugly head. My children ARE much better off away from NTCC, as is my wife, myself, and anyone else who ever left. And even if my granddaughter was illegititimate (she's not), my daughter would still be better off than trapped in a cultish and abusive "church" where the senior ministers post such anonymous rubbish. Although she did drop a rash of F-bombs on his deserving head, she still has more character and decency than he is likely to ever get. BTW, no one deleted her response, and if you want to see what he provoked her to say, feel free to surf on over to FACTnet and check it out. I stuck up for her then, and I do so even more today, now that we know the true identity of the scumbag who attacked (yes, he did attack) her. Since he acknowledges that it's no business of his, then why did he stick his nose into it in the first place?
The more this guy tries to weasel out of his despicable role in this affair, the more evident it is that he's not fit to lead a litter patrol detail, much less a congregation of saints. The ditch awaits both him and his blind followers.
Bro Johnson, maybe you could ask Mike about the premarital grope sessions he had with Tanya in the church office when she was about 13 and he was in his 20s, since he seems to be so concerned about the immoral behavior of others. It happened, and not only did he boastfully admit it to me and his other dorm mates, he also justified it when we expressed our consternation. What a piece of work. Of course, when a concerned brother went to RW over it, nothing happened. I guess the "apostle" could relate to that kind of behavior.
My so called "vendetta" has little to do with Kekel's personal attacks on me and my family; it's about just another hack preacher taking advantage of others. I hate seeing that, and feel the need to warn people about his chameleon nature. I've seen Dr. Kekel, and I've also seen Mr. Hyde. The transformation is truly astonishing.
More drivel from Mike's blog:
"My son had a piano recital recently. All parents of children in lessons can relate to the mixed emotions these events evoke; the joy and pride as your child performs, and the twitchy tolerance as you listen to everyone else’s child perform."
The more he blogs, the more he reveals his unchristlike attitudes. "Twitchy tolerance?" People who truly love others don't have to force themselves into "tolaration mode." Normal people ordinarily prefer their childrens' performances, but if they have any kind of decency, they also enjoy those put on by others. But in the Kekel household, it's apparently all and only about the Kekels.
People think he loves them, but he's just putting on a front to cover up his "twitchy tolerance"
CEO - Chief Executive Officer
A chief executive officer (CEO) or chief executive is one of the highest-ranking corporate officer (executive) or administrator in charge of total management, if selected as President and CEO of a corporation, company, organization, or agency, reporting to the board of directors.
Um, if you are CEO of something you are definitely in charge. "in charge of total management..." of a corporation. Is not NTCC called a corporation? If they are a 501(c)3 they most certainly are. So according to this, he is in charge of total management of everything, including the ministers. Davis may like to think he's still in charge of the ministers and students (and they are definitely duped into thinking so), but legally, once Kekel recieved the title of CEO, HE became in charge of the ministers and students. Kekel, not Davis.
JM
By the way, Kekel's story sure seems to match the story of the little boy who was on stage at a big concert playing a simple melody on the piano. You know, the one where the performer came out and told the little boy to keep playing and then played a beautifull melody? Hmm... not saying he's outright lying, just saying.... It sure is coincidental! lol
JM
You people don't keep giving that guy money, do you? Mr. Kekel is loaded!
Do you want to ruin your life? Join the NTCC and stay there for a while. You'll see.
if you'd like to see a good movie check out "lifted". it's on netflix for those of you that have it. The movie honors veterans. It won't seem like it at first until you get around the end, then things will make sense. you can also rent it on amazon. don't know if it's in redbox
Unfortunately, Mike Kekel is in an almost constant state of "twitchy tolerance," thinking that of many good Christian people who, at least to his elevated mind, are just peons whose presence he must endure. Pharisee.
For all who don't know, Pastor Ramirez has passed away.
http://www.grayfuneral.com/obituaries/Eduardo-Ramirez/
I am left speechless! Cheif, you said it all in the main post. I used to not be able to see through MCK's and NTCC's hypocrisies and double standards, but they were there and still are.
kekel did the same thing to us in BS, trying to make it seem as if we have so many more hours during the day than what NTCC takes.
Three hours of soul winning!!!!!!!!!!?????????
Give me a break MIKE!!!!!
What about the 30-45 minute drives each way that my hubby and I had to make to pick up people for church and drop them off. We couldn't understand why we were asked to pick them up since we lived in Graham and so many people in our soul winning team lived closer to these people needing rides. All our lay pastor could say was, "I keep thinking you live in Tacoma."...but he would always forget and call us anyway to help.
We did not mind, but that ate up a lot of time each service, especially with my hubby rushing to get ready after work.
So, Kekel speaks of Graham only...even though he is the CEO of the organization...hmmmm....
Why then does he either not know or promote the other locations to work their church members into the ground?
Between Sunday services, we would go door knocking; Monday pm we would go door knocking; Tuesday was Bible study/picking and dropping people off; wednesday was door knocking; thursday was church; friday was prayer mtg or door knocking or going out to eat; saturday was door knocking and then meeting at church to copy our results into the pastor's log; saturday night was church....and on and on....
I don't have the time like MIKE does to figure out how many hours that is (or maybe I have better things to do), but that is a lot of hours. Why couldn't the "leadership" send the pastor helpers instead of running their church members to the ground?
Oh, because Davis says you don't have enough people to need helpers. That does not make any sense!!!!
OKAY, besides football...was anyone's kid not allowed to attend PE in school? My pastor would not allow his daughter to attend. Why? Even though that is supposed to be a required class. Is it because she could only wear skirts? Why could Grant play football showing off his backside? Is it that boys can play sports, but girls can't? Why then are minister's wives playing volley ball with the men?
I do not get NTCC!!!!!!!!!!
If you are in an NTCC that is not Graham, why don't you try to figure out what they are requiring of their church members before you are tricked into sacrificing all your days to a church that won't admit to using you and your time in the name of Jesus Christ!
If you are a minister or minister's wife in any location other than Graham, why don't you try somehow to figure out what is being "allowed" now. They are going ice skating, roller skating, playing volley ball, ministers are inviting BS students over to play games like Guesstures, Apples to Apples, Catch phrase, foos ball, etc, etc.
UGH!!!!!!!!! NTCC makes me sick! And MCK makes me sick to hear his "excuses" and lies...and why he felt the need to gossip about Vic's daughter, I'll never understand.
Kekel says,
"As for GI bill tuition, it is not allowed because the Seminary won't LET you use it."
Not 100% true Mike. I am using my GI Bill and it is not allowed because the GI bill will only pay for an Accredited school. NTCC is a non-accredited school. That is why people CAN'T use the GI bill at NTCC.
Kekel says he is not in charge, huh? My BS notes, from Davis' class say otherwise,
"My wife cannot give you permission for anything in the church or the school. There is only one man outside of me that can: Pastor Kekel."
Sounds like Kekel's in charge.
Kekel asked,
"Did you ever report their behavior to a board member or overseer?"
Now, lets see what Davis said in class,
"Working with someone, a lot of you will go out and workers are not stupid in an ordinary stupid way. They have to take pills to be as stupid as some of them act. “Well, I think…” Who cares what you think? You do not have to answer to God for that church. The pastor does."
Kekel asks if it was reported, but Davis says "who cares what you think"...no wonder we were all so confused!!!! The "leaders" contradict themselves and NTCCers don't know what to think!!!!!!!!!
I would've loved to report my pastor for using us and taking advantage of us, but one day Davis says to tell him if your pastor did something wrong, and another day Davis says he doesn't care what we think and we would be dogged out for talking against a so called man of God.
Go to the General board with a complaint?
Yeah... just look at how that turned out for the Moreno family!
I'm loving these comments. DU made some good points and quotes. Hopefully DU and Kat will have more to say. Sometimes the process of wading thru the ntcc lies is challenging; but it is therapeutic.
Chilli Chiefster- You are bloggin' to the Max! ThankX for your heroic efforts and accomplishments in the blogosphere!!
Kat said "Does saying bless their hearts make it seem like you actually care? Is it your way of trying to say your better? What? Seriously!"
Kat, Tanya Kekel said that phrase to my wife one time on the telephone when speaking about another couple. laughing about it and then saying, in other words "you lying, reprobates!"
Believe me, the Kekel's are elitist! They think they are better than everybody else. Especially that schmuck, M C Kekel! He thinks he's Gods gift to the world. He's a walking, talking terd face! Other than that, he's a pretty nice fella. Not!!
mdr
Wow, Eddie Ramirez is dead. We used to carpool to work together in St. Louis; he lived in one of the dumps they called dorms a couple doors down. Only 52--that's what the NTCC lifestyle can do for a person. Seems like the only ones that make it to an advanced age are in the "leadership."
"UGH!!!!!!!!! NTCC makes me sick! And MCK makes me sick to hear his "excuses" and lies...and why he felt the need to gossip about Vic's daughter, I'll never understand."
That's how they do--I publicly criticized NTCC, so they felt free to make up and spread lies about my daughter. Although I don't technically think he was lying, because he probably believed it. What happened was my wife and daughter (for reasons I still can't fathom) decided to accept sister Espinoza's invitation to church in Graham one time when they were passing through traveling. My daughter had her baby daughter with her. Of course one of the nosy NTCC gossips, Gail Olson, quizzed my wife about whether she was married, and Edna replied to her "well, we're working on that." So sister Busybody no doubt took that to mean "no." However, she was married--to a loser, and what was being worked on was the divorce. Next thing you know, Mike the scumbag is spreading the false report (under the cowardly cover of "The Whirlwind" alias) on the internet. Once The Whirlwind was outed as Mike Kekel, he proffered some feeble non-apology ("my bad; no hard feelings" kind of BS), and then even had the nerve to still question it because I hadn't "proven" that she was married then. I don't have to prove anything to that clown; he's already proven what he is--a lying, talebearing snake in sheep's clothing.
I lived with Mike in the same dorm room when he and Phil Kinson were boasting about making out and groping their early teen future wives, and now they deny it. So I know beyond any doubt that Mike is a liar and a spin doctor. Sure, he can come across all humble and spiritual, but he's just as big of a con artist and narcissist as his criminal father in law. Trust any of them at your own peril.
"Now, lets see what Davis said in class,"
Excellent! I really need to dust off my old notes and post some of the crap they taught us. Haven't looked at them since the '80s, I think; no telling what kind of gems are there.
No question, Mike Kekel is a snake.
It can seem discouraging to think about going through all those pages, and pages of notes from BS to find proof of their hyposcrisies and lies...
but it only took me a few minutes to find those couple quotes. I did quit, not wanting to spend too much time in them, but there is so much in there that they will contradict.
RWD called us in class "stupid" so he probably thinks we won't ever go through those notes.
Kat will share more. Today, again, and actually thru the next week I won't have much time.
(So Part 1 – I guess I typed too much and I have to split it!!! LOL)
So where do I start has always been my thought. I suppose I could always start with whatever and just keep adding right. Yes, I can recall hearing RWD stating if you have a problem with one of my ministers then you have a problem with me. Many times at that. YEP I SURE DO. I can also attest to the fact that when I did bring things to Kekel about the situation with my husband, they didn't do a thing about him. In fact, he still has his license (or the last I knew. I know he still attends so no doubt he's still licensed.) But he didn't do a crying thing! If a women, and 3 teen children witnesses AND other non-family related adult and child witness (all church members) are willing to speak up and say yes, we saw this then why wouldn't they do a thing? Doesn't matter because he pays all his money to them so they wouldn't want to lose that right! I told them of the fighting, arguing, controlling, things he was doing. I told them of police being called to our home because of him more than once. I told them how he claims to be a preacher, much less a Christian and he NEVER read the bible, prayed, or said anything Christ like at home. I told how he would fight and argue and belittle me between houses while mandatory soul winning (GREAT example! I eventually quit going before I left the church and before he moved out and left me). Did they do anything? NO he pays them their hush money. Why tell - if they are a minister of ntcc then that means they are still paying their hush money. Of course they won't do anything about it! If you're a member and you speak up they'd rather lose 1 or 2 members b/c these robot ministers will go out and find them more.
Now when I brought all this to Mr REPORT IT Kekel, I also said I wanted to separate until such a time we could agree and work things out that the fighting wasn’t worth it. I said I would stay in the extra bedroom and look for a job. If I got one I’d work and save money – even willing to quit *IF* things could work out. If not, I’d save and move out. Well just a few days later Ol’ Danny boy decides YOU WANT TO DIVORCE THEN I’M LEAVING. Good luck he told me taking care of yourself and *THOSE* boys (he said like they were a deadly disease – the ones he promised to love and encourage NOT). I told him I never said divorce but ok if that’s what YOU want I told him. He left me with no money, food, gas, nothing. I had just bought a boat hoppty whip. The driver window was stuck off track in the down position. It was right around Christmas time too. You know how cold it can be here, raining, etc. in WA. But you know, God blessed! I got THREE part time jobs. God helped me to make it happen. I finally settled down with one of the jobs permanent, FT.
I was treated like a freak when I went to church after that. People wouldn’t talk to me. Tanya told me I was basically a member (still married to a “minister”) I quit BS, I quit soul winning, I was kicked out of being a Sunday School teacher (actually the day that happened, in my heart I had decided to go tell them I was no longer going to do it then I was told you’re out I was happy BUT kicked at the same time!) I quit paying hush funds (tithe) etc. I just kept going b/c I was afraid of being condemned to hell. Then one day I thought duh if I’m condemned to hell why torture myself and keep going. Might as well quit and thank God I did.
(More to follow . . . . . )
Wow! But not surprising. Typical NTCC. Dan was a real punk. Is he still with the NTCC and if you don't mind me asking, what is his first and last name? Typical NTCC punk. Now I knew of a few brothers in the NTCC who were pretty tough for sure but apparently Dan wasn't one of them. The NTCC is a complete joke other than all the money that Davis and the Kekel's rake in and all the real estate they amass. That is no joke and Davis and Kekel know it and consequently they prosper at the hands of a bunch of DUMMIES. Let me tell you, the NTCC is full of a bunch of pure absolute stone cold dummies. More and more, I understand Davis and Kekel. I don't like them but I understand them. They aren't dummies like their church members and junior ministers. Some of those ministers are absolute idiots. It's like they have no clue that they are living in a real world which comes along with real responsibilities.
When Kekel told me that many of his fellow NTCC ministers are real knot heads i.e. stupid dummies, he never made a truer statement. Kekel and Davis laugh at you dummies and I understand why. You stay broke year after year, do nothing with yourself, don't effectively provide for your wives and or children and you are going nowhere fast and you ain't doing jack for God in the process. Many of you guys are just plain stupid. If I was the wife of many of you dummies I'd leave your dumb ass. You ain't providing for them so according to the Bible, you are worse than an infidel anyway so you certainly ain't doing a thing for God, your family or anyone else. And you think you are a pastor? You couldn't give me one ounce of advise and the only reason the sorry NTCC leadership allows you to remain in your sorry state is because that's one more city where they can fly the banner while claiming that their sorry organization is actually doing something. You NTCC ministers are a bunch of dummies so it's good for you that Kekel is spending your money while sending his son through a catholic college. You need to send Kekel/Graham more money while you are at it you dummy!! Don't forget to pitch in to buy RWD another gun you idiot and don't forget the world missions pledge and the camp ground pledge you dummy. Are you so blind that you can't see that Kekel and Davis are hurting financially you idiot? Send some more money to Graham and do it in a hurry.
So happy that you are out Kat and using what you learned for the good.
It's something we all have to do...
I really believe it is the Mercy of God that our eyes were opened about the org and we can all have better lives because of it!...all the while, the NTCCers that want to stay w/NTCC and ignore the RED flags can live for RWD and KEKEL and OLSON all they want to please them, and to marry who the church tells them to marry and to go where the church tells them to go and to have babies when the church tells them they can have babies, etc, etc.
I am so glad I'm out!!!!!!!!
if you want to clearly understand what is going on, all you have to do is search information about free masons and the Illuminatti. I currently attend the Graham church. I have sekel and others using their hand signals. The government controlled by this group wants the people to in ntcc to be controlled. This is one of the reasons their stance on gun control has changed. It is taught if trust God you don't need a gun. I still attend because God has me here.
I meant to write that I have seen kekel and others using their hand signals even from the pulpit. Even the desighns of the church are masionic.
Anonymous said..
I still attend because God has me here.
Anon wrote...
I don't believe that for one second. I don't believe God has you there; you have yourself there. No doubt brainwashed like everyone else who attends cult control meetings at the NTCC. I don't even call them services anymore. They are mind control manipulation meetings.
I'm sure you don't believe a lot of things. It's God's opinion that I care about. Even when Isreal turned from God, there were those who remained faithful to God. God always has a remnant. As it is written, "for He hath not left Himself without witness..." God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. We will all give account of ourselves to God. Later
Anonymous wrote...
It's God's opinion that I care about.
Anon2 wrote...
I understand that and can respect that but what I'm saying is that I don't believe that "God" is the one who has you in the NTCC. I don't believe he "told" you to be there i.e. in an audible voice. So many people say "God told me to do this or God had me do that" but 99.9999% of the time, it wasn't God who had them do or told them to do anything.
I could be wrong which I seriously doubt on this one, but I don't see why God would want someone to be lead by a bunch of people who enable others who commit child molestation, incest, double crossing, conniving, greediness, unlawful redistribution of wealth and assets, blatant tax evasion, total inconsideration of others, complete misuse and abuse of others and down right willful psychological manipulation of others. The NTCC is an abusive cult to the complete max that's set up to con people out of their money and assets, no more no less.
So in closing, while having this very complete knowledge of what the NTCC is "Really" all about, I don't believe that it's "God" who has you there. It's you who has been brainwashed into believing that God has you there when in "reality", (which not many people know much about in the NTCC) is you who has yourself in the NTCC.
I was a former member of NTCC, and back in early 2000-ish, was on a website that was for those members who left cults. I healed from this but just wanted to say that the basis for the whole foundation of this church is power and greed.
God was the ultimate in power but he has given us free will and a choice of our own.
The tactics used by this church is next to brainwashing. That is why they target those in the uniform. So, that these young people can be dominated and brought into submission. That is what it is about.
I have read many things about what NTCC's money is for and their stance on what there mission is verses the other charities and all I have to say is I am glad that I am no longer a member. The baseless accusations and discipline tactics are abusive.
Be happy you are gone. Just don't hold it against your next church. You have to figure out what you believe and why. The bible is meant to be studied and questioned, not interpreted for you...Anyone who tries to abuse you isn't full of the spirit...
I realized that I did things because I was afraid of what man said and thought and judged me, not God.
I remember as a member left the church, the pastor screaming at him from the top of his lungs, if you think you can leave this church and not leave
God, you are sadly mistaken. Or the time when a marine was teasing and given some of the brothers a hard time in the barracks and when they went soul winning. This went on for months. Then, one day the brothers came to service and told the pastor that this fellow marine fell of the balcony a few stories up and broke his neck, the pastor preached about how God wouldn't be mocked. That was God's will for this guy being a pain to the brethren.
We can all go back and forth but it is each one of us who has been given the gift of discernment. If you question something, it is your choice. I am not talking about stupid bad decisions but, those that are your choice. Research and read the bible. It isn't meant to be lived literally but to be used as an example, as a history book. One that is used for guidance. The Holy Spirit is your guide. NOT MAN. Men are weak, they are selfish, they are sinful. If they were close to perfection, we wouldn't have sin and we would probably be called up to God.
I have learned that NO PASTOR is above me and closer to God than I. We are all the same in God's eyes. Yes, he is pleased with others more than some but, my point is, Pastors are just men. JUST MEN, stop seeking their guidance and approval and stop defending your selves, your spouses and your choices. You will NEVER be right in NTCC churches eyes.
I want to add my own opinion on something. I think that the rules that came about in regard to dress, women/mens roles, all of the rules of hair, fellowship came about to dictate the behavior in the way that the pastors wanted it to be. Things like no tv was because they wanted no one influencing anything they were teaching. The same reason why people aren't allowed to obtain employment where they want, marry who they want, fellowship with who they want, why all the time outside of work is occupied, so that people don't stray and have any mind of their own....and that is my two cents!
And your two cents is right on the money, no pun intended. It's all about control and it's always been that way. Davis and Kekel are both scum bags and con artists.
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