Bro Bellamy is quite the thought provoking writer. His points are all valid and his questions legitimate. Any sincere hearted Christian should give Bro Bellamy's questions some serious consideration. If pleasing R.W. Davis and M.C. Kekel is more important to you than pleasing God and loving your neighbor, only you will know. For those of you who are trying to make to heaven, you may very well not be heading in that direction if pleasing the NTCC leadership is more important to you than pleasing God, and God does know. Being a company man ain't going to get you to heaven.
On the previous thread, Bro Bellamy wrote...
It is very interesting that no one from NTCC ever shows or proves what is being said is a lie. They may say it is a lie, but never give evidence to the contrary. They tell us to keep our mouths shut or tell us that we are filled with bitterness, but they never say here is proof.
Those of you that remain in NTCC should ask yourself a few questions.
Who are you more afraid of asking a question; the Lord Jesus or Pastor Davis or Rev. Kekel?
(Be Honest!)
Then ask youreself the question; should it be that way?
Another question to ask; Am I working and sacrificing for God or is it really because I don't want to be considered a failure by NTCC leaders?
Is my sacrifice a freewill offering to God or is it because I have heard others rebuked during conferences for loving a house, job, or family more than I love God or that they are lazy?
When I stand before God is he going to say how many people did I invite to church or is he going to say did I love him and my neighbor?
Am I saved by my works or am I really saved by grace?
Read, study, and pray about Acts chapter 15.
Many of us that post on this blog have forgiven any wrong we received from NTCC. But I am beginning to undersatand that forgiveness does not mean keeping our mouths shut.
I was praying the other day and I told God that I was angry, but I was going to work out that anger then and there. I told God that much of what I was angry about was difficult to put in words and he helped me.
I was angry that I allowed NTCC to teach me to distance myself from my family, I was angry because I left God's grace and love and replaced it with works, I was angry because I have found it so hard to relate to others because I had become a Pharisee, and many other things.
But now there is no anger. God is opening doors. I am shocked by all the love I am receiving from other churches. They are not the compromising devils that we have been led to believe. Many support missionaries, many have invited to take us to dinner; they want to give of themselves for others and not take. They have food banks and just want to help people and are not asking for anything in return. They volunteer and enjoy doing so. No one is telling them that they are not saved if they don't; they just love people.
One last question and I will close for now. The Bible said for us to give hoping nothing in return. Why is it that when you soul win you think of what can these people do for my church; can they pay tithe, can they become soul winners? Why are you not taught to look at each individual as a soul that may die and go to hell if they don't accept Christ?
We know how you think, because we use to be you.
Bro. Bellamy
199 comments:
Awesome post. We heard a saying that goes:
"Don't go to church, just be the church"
The saying is not intended to discourage people from attending a church but rather the point is that we are an extension of the body of Christ. When you love God and your neighbor as yourself, you don't have to walk around in white shirts and wing tips handing out thousands of church cards to get someone into the body of Christ.
There is a song by a group called the Newsboys called Shine, and these are the words of the chorus:
Shine,
Make 'em wonder what you got,
Make 'em wish that they were not,
On the outside looking bored.
Shine,
Let it shine before all men,
Let 'em see good works and then,
Let 'em glorify the Lord.
Listening to this group would be considered listening to devil music back when I was in because it is not southern gospel.
Freedom is such a wonderful thing. Brother Bellamy confirms much of which we have come to know recently. We are called liars and even worse by the ntcc leadership, but there is no substance. They wait for an Xer to mess up and then they point to that person as an example of what happens when people leave the ntcc. I would bet you fifty bucks to a bucket of horse apples that people inside the ntcc have sins that are more atrocious than those that they point to in the Xer community. The thing is that you are more likely to find forgiveness from man and God outside of the ntcc. They will always hold things over your head.
You can tell from his writings that Bro. Bellamy is a man who loves God. Why the ntcc would let a person like him go is beyond my comprehension. I believe that when a person is genuinely saved and knows the forgiveness and grace of God it rubs the ntcc leadership the wrong way. Opposites do not attract. Bro. Bellamy goes on to write some very thought provoking questions that if the ntcc'rs would ask themselves honestly, they would realize that all is not well in the ntcc and that they are a part of a spiritually dying organization.
Then he closes with the comparison of other churches that show love without anything in return. They have outreaches to the poor and they love people not expecting or demanding anything in return. Is not this what Christianity is supposed to be all about?
D&A
AMEN!!!!!
I like this post!
Don & Ange said "There is a song by a group called the Newsboys called Shine."
Hey, you guys! That's one of my favorite songs. We saw the Newsboys here in the Seattle area and it was awesome. The new lead singer of the band is Michael Tait, and though he's good, I wish they still had Peter Furler as lead vocalist.
We hope everybody had a wonderful 4th of July celebration, 'cause we sure did! Larry Travis and his family had us over for a great day of festivities. While we were watching the fireworks, I couldn't help but think of Roger and seeing him here watching and scowling, saying, what a waste of money. These people could have spent that money in the work of Gawd, you know, like one of my houses or something.
Seriously, thanks to Larry and his gracious wife and kids for the good food and fun time they showed us.
God bless you guys and don't forget to, Shine, make 'em wonder what ya' got, make 'em wish that they were not on the INSIDE of the org...lookin' bored!
mdr
Hey, I'm glad you had a nice time Matt. Say hi to Larry for me. Larry if you read this I'll say hi for myself. It's great to have a good time with friends who are interested in more than your money or what you can bring to "their" organization. It would sure be hypocritical for anyone in the NTCC to judge how another man spends his money given the way the Kekels and the Davis' spend their money.
I remember when a car would be called a "self car" if it was anything like a two door or a sports car or especially a motorcycle. Once again, given the way the Kekels spend money on furniture and everything else they can dream up, and the way the Davis spend money on houses and luxury RV's, no one in the NTCC has any room to talk. Start talking about your NTCC leaders before you worry about how anyone else spends their money.
So the moral of the story is, enjoy the fireworks. I don't see any sin in that. The bible never said you can't enjoy life and if it did, then on that point alone, Kekel and Davis have been sinning their entire so called, "salvation". Of couse I don't see them as acting any different than the people they refer to as sinners. They are just religious sinners. Anyone who uses and abuses their fellow man like they do qualify as sinners.
Why not leave the NTCC. It's not like staying with the NTCC is going to get you to heaven. You have a whole lot better chance of getting to heaven if you leave the NTCC. I truly believe that.
Jeff
So true Brother Bellamy, I used to live in the servicemens home in Junction City, KS. I grew up in church all of my life and I remember being so lost when I got to Ft. Riley. Pastor Devonshire and Reverend Bellamy were awsome. I had such a great time at church and fellowship with the bretheren. To make a long story short, I am very surprised that NTCC is going online because that was a big NO! back when I attended their church. I sincerely pray for them because they have some strong spiritual leaders like Pastor Devonshire and Reverend Bellamy who could do so much good teaching the right doctrine. As for myself, I read so many stories from former NTCC members that are similar to mine. It's unreal.
Jeff said " It's great to have a good time with friends who are interested in more than your money or what you can bring to "their" organization."
Great post, Jeff! When we finally departed Ntcc, we began to attend another church in this area and were overwhelmed by the love and hospitality we received. The pastor and elders didn't know us, but they extended the right hand of fellowship, as if we had been going there for years. One of the first things they asked us is, do you need any money or help to get settled?
Contrast that with this: In NTCC, RWD has set up a fund of $200 a month, for workers who are laboring overseas. When my wife and I returned from Guam, I asked RWD for a draw from that fund for the time that we spent in the PI in 2002. We had previously asked JHO for this money in 2009 shortly after we arrived in Guam, but were unable to get it. When asking RWD in 2010, his reply was, "well, let me talk it over with John and see if we had that fund in place during the time you were in the PI." That fund has been set up for years and he did allow us to have it, but we practically had to beg for it.
The point is, since we left NTCC, we have found there are Christians who are willing to help someone they barely know, financially and in other areas of giving, and I'm not talking about buying someone a dinner, though that in itself is a blessing.
We didn't need any help, but it was a real blessing knowing that it was there if we did.
Thank God for people who really care about you and not for what they can get out of you.
mdr
Dustin said:
"As for myself, I read so many stories from former NTCC members that are similar to mine. It's unreal."
DnA said:
Many people are starting to wake up and realize that the ntcc is no longer preaching a living Christ to a lost and dying world. They have become a part of the dying world that they have always preached about and the ones that have true Christianity are the ones that the ntcc have preached against for so many years. There are good people still in the ntcc and we pray for this blogging ministry that God will use it to free more people. People leave the ntcc looking for freedom. They google ntcc and find that they are not there are many with story's like there own.
When ever someone leaves the ntcc I rejoice. Not because I want revenge or justice to be served on them but because another person becomes free from bondage. The ntcc is beyond repentance as a group. The best thing that can happen to them is for the organization to be dissolved and for people to attend a normal church where grace and mercy are attributes that Christians are allowed to experience and the ntcc doctrines and policies are blotted out by the blood shed on the Cross.
You can't work your way into God's grace. Rwd has found a niche in sales and exploited Christians to build a sleezy organization that was founded on greed and power. The body of believers that make up the true church are have an attribute that is becoming scarce in the ntcc and that attribute is love. Love covers a multitude of sins. When you love people you don't use them. Words like helping and giving take on a new meaning. In the ntcc helping meant inviting people to cult meetings and giving meant enabling board members to take all expense paid vacations across the USA in their luxurious motor homes.
Don and Ange
I was talking on the phone last night to a preacher who had left NTCC over 10 years ago. He stated that so many people that make comments on this blog seems to be filled with so much anger and bitterness. I asked him as a pastor, preacher, and Christian, if you knew that you had effected dozen if not hundreds of people (these were ministers/preachers also God's anointed as the NTCC leadership say that they are)to the point that they became this angry and bitter at you, would you not at least try to talk to them and make amends?
So I ask this of all current NTCC pastors, preachers, Bible School students, and Christians, if you knew that you were the cause of so many to be angry and bitter, regardless of who is right or wrong, what would you do?
What has the NTCC leadership done?
Scripture references:
Matthew 5:23-24- Note that it said if thy brother has ought against thee.
Luke 15:4
I Corinthians 8:1-13
Another question I asked him; if it is ok for NTCC leadership, pastors, preacher to speak negative things about other churches that they do not agree with then why is it wrong for us to speak against what we don't agree with in the NTCC?
Isn't this just another Double Standard?
Bro. Bellamy
If you come on here and read. And we sound bitter and angry. That is only because we are sharing our TRUE stories of our experiences while in this cult! Folks that live through time in a cult. Do not come out saying wasn't that a great time. I learned so much..... The complete opposite happens. My entire life was controlled. From my cloths,friends,music,hair,where I went,talked to.
So if I don't come across as cheery and happy. I do think I have every right to share my experiences we lived through. In hopes it will prevent others from going through the samething.
April
Exactly April. I'm not real happy about being tricked into living a lifestyle that my pastor knew the whole time that guys like Kekel weren't living.
These pastors know the way the Kekel live in Graham. I wasn't there but they were. I'll never be happy with knowing that my family followed requirements and rules that now Mr. Kekel is deceitfully saying were never rules at all. That is a huge slap in the face and as a result, I don't want to see anyone else "ignorantly" following these hypocrites if I can help it. We didn't know any better but now there is enough information available so that people can know better and I plan to provide it.
Why do I keep doing this? Because it takes time for people to see the light and time is something I have. The NTCC isn't going to slack up with their recruiting so I'm not going to slack up with my exposing and it has nothing to do with bitterness or hate.
Jesus never slacked up on the Pharisees so why should I slack up on the NTCC Pharisees? Was Jesus Bitter? Not only that there is nothing wrong with being angry. The Bible says, "be ye angry and sin not". It's amazing how many people do know that scripture and it's also amazing how many people forget how angry Jesus got with the religious people of his day. He was flipping tables!!! A few tables need to get flipped in the NTCC.
Jeff
Amen Bro. Bellamy and April. Many people choose not to get involved. There are those who have left that feel what we do is out of bitterness and hatred. And while speaking for myself, I'll say blogging is therapeutic and it fills me with sense of freedom that I did not have in the ntcc, the main purpose many of us blog is because we suffered needlessly in the ntcc and we are trying to shorten the suffering of others.
I would ask that preacher that you spoke with Bro. Bellamy, "Does he see himself as being better off with them or without them?" If he thinks that what they are doing is right and Godly he needs to read the hundreds of stories that are shared on this blog, factnet and other blogs. If he reads them I doubt he would be able to turn a blind eye. If he agrees with us that these things are wrong and harmful then how can he watch folks continue to suffer without saying anything?
The reason is that the teachings of the ntcc are meant to control a man or woman for the rest of their lives. Many of their teachings are used to place lasting fear in the hearts of their victims. Yes we were victims. They not only wanted us to live by their rules while in the ntcc, but they wanted to instill fear in us after we left the ntcc, and they desire that fear to control us until the day we die. Why do they do this? So people will feel the way this preacher does and not get involved. This is one of the hardest things to do as an Xer. It's been driven into our hearts that we were being taught the bible and speaking out against them is hatred and bitterness. They don't want people that leave to say anything bad about them. That is why it's called brainwashing.
This is why we warn people that the ntcc is a cult. We have taken a deep look at both sides of the issues and studied them out in the bible. Not even Mck can adequately defend the teachings and the actions of the ntcc leadership. If you are in the ntcc start reading your bibles for yourselves. Study and pray for yourselves. Look at the ways in which you are controlled. You want to talk about bitterness and hatred? Look to your leaders. I've never seen such a bitter and hateful group as the ntcc. They are the only ones going to heaven, just ask them. Everyone else is wrong in their doctrines and beliefs. They mock other religions and they will use you up for everything you are worth and discard you when they are finished with you.
We are going to speak out against the ntcc because there are folks that are in the ntcc that are under a delusion that it's okay to have their futures, relationships and families destroyed. It's okay. Don't you know they love us? Don't you know that they care about us? As long as you give your time and finances and don't swim against the current you will fit right in but one day when you find the years of your youth are gone, you have nothing to show for it and your usefulness has diminished you will leave. You will think it's all your fault. You will choose never to say anything bad about the ntcc. You may find God or choose to live without Him. We hope you find freedom as we and others have. Know the truth and the truth will make you free.
DnA
D&A wrote...
They not only wanted us to live by their rules while in the ntcc, but they wanted to instill fear in us after we left the ntcc.
Jeff said...
That is a very profound statement. Very profound!!! That is a fact and their methods were and are very effective on many people. The NTCC leadership psychologically messed up many people but that trend is being broken by the very blog.
I'm trying to teach people not to fear the NTCC leadership. Fear God but not them. They are not Gods representatives anyway. They are greedy, money hungry, double standard, hypocritical, abusive crooks. See, no fear there and no need to fear. Why fear a double standard hypocrite? Why fear a greedy crook? That is Olson, Kekel and RWD. I used to fear them but I no longer do now that I know the type of guys they really are and these blogs have brought that information to the forefront.
Break the fear people. Don't live in fear. You don't have to fear an ungodly crook and RWD certainly falls in the category. What you need to fear is wasting your whole life with the NTCC and that of your family because you'll never get it back. My family is so much better off without the NTCC. Life is so much fuller and better. The NTCC a corporation lead by a bunch of decieptful greedy abusive crooks who use people.
Jeff
Dustin,
Who are you? I mean, I was in the Junction City church when Rev. Devonshire and Bellamy were there. I was there from 2001-2004 before the Army moved us to Ft. Sill.
I'm just wondering if I know you is all. =)
Of course, talking to any brethren back then was forbidden, period, by a female.
Bro. Johnson and J. Stephens, who posts from time to time on here was there as well when Rev. Devonshire and Bellamy were there.
By the way...Hello Bro. Bellamy! =)
Hi Jeff! =)
He acknowledged that NTCC has done many things that are unbiblical and hurtful to many people. He wasn't disagreeing with the blog necessarily, but felt some of the comments were over-the-top and alienated some people that read them and causes them to dispare. That is what made me think about what a Christian's reaction should be if they affected so many lives so negatively.
When King David committed adultery and the man threw stones at him, David acknowledged his sin and commanded nothing to be done to him; David humbled himself.
(This man also said that he had confirmed the adultery that Pastor Davis committed when he was part of the other organization. So it wasn't for "holiness" reasons that Pastor Davis started NTCC.)
I believe if they really cared about souls as they say that they do then all of this would have been taken care of years ago, and there would have been no need for blogs like this. But because they really do not, and they refuse to acknowledge and make the changes that are necessary then people will continue to speak against them.
Bro. Bellamy
Hello Dawn
I believe Dustin is the Native American Brother that lived in the Servicemen's Home. He was stationed at the helicopter unit next to Interstate 70.
Oh BTW I talked to Queshia Saturday. All of you guys are in my prayers. I wish I could go back and do things the way I knew they should have been done, but I know I cannot, but I plan to do what I can to make amends, and provoke others to really begin to think about what they are doing, who they are serving, and what the Bible really says.
Bro. Bellamy
Hey Dawn. How are you? Hope everything is fine with you and your family. I figure it probably is. Take care.
Jeff
Edward said...
He wasn't disagreeing with the blog necessarily, but felt some of the comments were over-the-top and alienated some people that read them and causes them to disappear.
Jeff said...
Unfortunately he was right. I know I'm guilty of going over the top from time to time. Some people appreciate the "in your face approach" occasionally and it does embolden people but sometime as you noted it does have a counterproductive effect. Your point is valid and well taken Bro Bellamy. Take care.
Jeff
Bellamy is the real deal and any honest NTCCer will remember that. What would he benefit from lying about what he has experienced or seen in NTCC? The same goes for Reed too. Acts 15 gives you some real insight into the leadership of the early church and though NTCC would like you to think it as some autocratic institution, there were times that Paul "disagreed" with what was being done by Peter (Galatians 2:11-21), Paul got upset with John Mark (Acts 13:13, 15:38) and so on. Even Paul was shown to be wrong in his choice of not allowing John Mark to minister with him and we see him later telling Timothy to bring John Mark along because he was "profitable for the ministry" (2 Timothy 4:11).
The NTCC leadership will NEVER admit when they are wrong and will seek to revise their past actions as to make the person look foolish or ignorant of the original reasons for their rules, actions, etc.
The Church is a body that is dependent upon the "members" that are within it and most of all dependent upon the Head, Jesus Christ (Ephesians 4:16, Galatians 6:1, 2 Thessalonians 3:15)
People can call it bitterness and anger all they want.... it's still truth. Just ask them how they would feel if they realized all their money, time and lives went towards lies. To realize that they had been lied to, that they spent $$$ on a "school" who taught them lies. When they trusted those leaders to teach them truth.... I think they would probably be a little bitter and angry as well.
Question to those who exited while in a work.... how did you handle the church members? Have you had contact with them? Did you leave them with any reason for your departure or did someone come in and take over and make sure you were looked at as black sheep? Just wondering, we are trying to figure out the best way to deal with this... you know... do you scream FIRE and tell them to run in the other direction or do you try to be "respectful" and go quietly in the night?
I meant despair; not dispare or disappear.
It would be good if they disappeared from NTCC:)
Bro Bellamy said...
I wish I could go back and do things the way I knew they should have been done, but I know I cannot, but I plan to do what I can to make amends
Jeff said...
Of course I can't speak for the Lord but the way I see it, you already have. Would you do things differently now? I'll answer for you because I already know the answer. Yes. So there it is; it's a done deal. That is what grace is all about and of course you don't need me to tell you that but I'm just throwing it in for good measure.
I regret the way I treated many people, (who weren't in the NTCC) judgmental and all, but I don't plan to do it again. I have deep regrets with the way I acted toward my family. I'll die with that one but what can I do. I can't take it back and my Dad is dead so I can't even apologize to him if I wanted to. That is just a burden I'll have to live with till the day I die.
What I can do is warn others. Hopefully they can learn from our experiences and realize that the NTCC is nothing but a dead end with a bunch of sorrow at the finish line.
I talked to a Commander today on Ft. Benning, and we discussed the dangers of the NTCC. Hopefully he can steer his soldiers clear from the NTCC so they don't find that they did no more than spin their wheels for twenty years or more.
The NTCC doesn't give life, it takes it away.
Jeff
Jeff said...
"I can't take it back and my Dad is dead so I can't even apologize to him if I wanted to. That is just a burden I'll have to live with till the day I die."
Jeff, I know exactly what you mean. My mother died 11 years ago and my father-in-law died 10 years ago. I literally cry when I think of how I wasted the last few years I had with them by being dedicated to those who absolutely could care less about me. I was only a tithe check and a warm body to forget about when I had enough of the bondage. My mother and I were really close before my coming to NTCC. And for those of you that will say that it is not NTCC fault, I beg to differ. My pastor of the servicemen's home would constantly share stories of those that went to visit family and would stop serving God. During Bible School they warned us that our family could lead us away from God. That will make anyone cut off their relationship with their family. But No more God's word shows us that our family is what is most important, not dedication to some church organization. His love in us causes us to love our family.
They made everything to seem fearful that we would die and go to hell that no one ever wanted to do anything outside of the church.
But that is not how God is!!!
Bro. Bellamy
Bellamy said..."Jeff, I know exactly what you mean. My mother died 11 years ago and my father-in-law died 10 years ago. I literally cry when I think of how I wasted the last few years I had with them by being dedicated to those who absolutely could care less about me."
There are probably many people in NTCC that have basically disowned their families and were taught to look at them with disdain. They missed birthdays, anniversaries, deathbeds, funerals and will never be able to reconcile with people who are now gone. It started with the civilian and Servicemen's Home pastors, grooming the young man or woman for not resisting the authority of leaders within NTCC. They were taught to take the words of their pastor(s) over the advice and admonition of their parents. You put church activities (dinners, Q&A, living in the Home), conferences, soulwinning, and many displays of sacrifice towards the NTCC above what others in the military and your family had warned about. You were taught to take their concern as being a tool of the devil only to manipulate your or separate you from NTCC. You were warned about not visiting during leave because of what activities family would be doing and that could weaken your walk and testimony. You would harshly rebuke family members and friends, cutting them off and condemning them to their eternal destinies. You were formed and fashioned into a cheap imitation of those above you, only to be manipulated yourself as you followed with blind loyalty. God knows them that are His and may the Holy Spirit open the eyes of the blind within NTCC...
Boy did Anonymous ever hit the nail on the head. That is exactly how it was. They had this brainwashing thing down to a science. At least until the advent of the internet. Then it all changed and the word got out. They required that we live by those standards but Davis, Kekel sure didn't try that one on Grant. It is flat out sinister.
We were expected to kick our families to the curb but that has never been the case with the RWD, Kekel and Grant. Here it is, Grant is attending a secular Catholic college and I'll guarantee that Davis and Kekel haven't disowned him!!!! In fact Davis has a real nice house willed to him. The student of a Catholic college. So according to RDUB's own standards, he's leaving a house to the devil!!!!
Get some of that. Sinister and heartless. That is the best way to describe their advise that we separate ourselves from our families when they wouldn't even consider doing the same.
Jeff
And you better believe it makes me angry! These guys are quite fortunate some of us (like myself) do have some Godly convictions.
Jeff
Sooner or later they are going to mess with someone who doesn't have any Godly convictions and shame on them when that day comes.
Jeff
Jeff said...
That is a very profound statement. Very profound!!! That is a fact and their methods were and are very effective on many people. The NTCC leadership psychologically messed up many people but that trend is being broken by the very blog.
LTravis said...
This is right on target; I really mean bullseye, perfectly stated.
It took about five years of reading all the different blogs for me to understand that I had been deceived and lied to. I tell you these leaders in the ntcc are about as far from God as you can be and they bring such disgrace to the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke an entire chapter in the gospel of Matthew to describe RWD and anyone that believes and teaches ntcc doctrine. I think all of heaven would rejoice if next Sunday if the entire Graham congregation would get up right in the middle of another brainwashing session and walk out. I wish I would have had the courage to do that back in the day.
I also would like to thank Amber Wright for calling me years ago and telling me about fact net. Amber you are awesome for calling me that day, God Bless you and may you rest in the grace of God. I love how God works things out in our lives, He used TEW daughter to lead me in the right path which ultimately leads to the Grace of God. “Grace is the most amazing, powerful, meaningful, stupendous, awe-inspiring, humbling, pride-killing, unstoppable force in the entire Universe, and it flows from the Father's heart in Christ.”
I just heard a message last Sunday titled “GodSick” and the main point was zeal without knowledge is very bad; in fact zeal without knowledge is why people fly airplanes into buildings. The ntcc is just like that; brainwashed people can’t think for themselves, what wouldn’t you do for these people. I hope that you would at the very least hear my plea and consider what I’m saying. The ntcc is a pride based business and they use religion as a front.
The ntcc negates God’s greatest commands. My first pastor in 1979 was Pop Gaylord although his doctrine was in err , I believed he loved the Lord and RWD got the best of him like he did (does) the rest of the folks that are in this dying business. The truth sometimes is like a medicine that’s hard to take but in the end it will heal you. Jesus said I’m the way the truth and the life… He who the Son sets free is free indeed. I’m free in Christ and that is all that matters.
Jeff good to hear from you and I had such an awesome time with the Reeds on the fourth of July. I really have been enjoying the Reed’s, they are real friends. I tell you when you give and expect nothing in return then you can begin to understand what God’s love is about. I’m not much of a writer and I don’t articulate very well but this I do know, God’s grace is what changes us as humans and nothing else will suffice. I’m done being the devils shoe shine boy period!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff said,
"Here it is, Grant is attending a secular Catholic college and I'll guarantee that Davis and Kekel haven't disowned him!!"
wonder how many ntccers have picked up the phone and reconnected with family members they have disowned. looks like mck and rwd have given the green light.
people that are bitter hardly speak out. it simmers and overtakes their mind.
My husband hated coming to NTCC with me...that's why he would only come out once in a blue moon.
He hated how artificial some people and ministers were and how his faith (Catholic) was constantly mocked and ridiculed by people who had no idea what they were even spewing about from the pulpit. (My husband knows his faith, knows his doctrine very well).
He hated being swarmed by 'brothers' during altar call to 'get saved'.
Happened every time he came with me.
And he hated it.
He didn't care for Rev. Devonshire, Rev. Gandy or Rev. Ramierez as he said their genuine concern was a bunch of hogwash and he could see right though them for what they were.
But, he never had a bad thing to say about you and Sister Rev. Bellamy. He likes you guys. Thinks the world of ya actually.
We couldn't come often to church in Germany because of where we lived, but when I would mention 'hey, let's go to NTCC this weekend', he was up for the drive.
He wanted to go. I didn't have to beg, whine, and bribe him like I did in times past.
He enjoyed fellowshipping with you guys as well.
Still thinks highly of you both, even now while we're here in TX and you're in Ohio.
So, for your loyalty to GOD and your friendship with us, thank you Bro. Bellamy. =)
Jeff,
All is not well at all here. If you have the time, I'd like you to pray for me if you don't mind.
I really can use some prayers. God knows what it's all about so no need to get into all the details. =)
Thank you =)
And another thing as long as you remain the ntcc you will always end in either pride or despair because everything you do in that organization is always about you and your works. The truth about religion is it doesn't work. The gospel is about Jesus that's the good news. The ntcc leaves you as an arrogant self righteous jerk and always looking down at other people, thinking I'm holier than that. The flip to that is despair because you’re always the next sermon about how much of a piece of crap you are and it starts all over again. I'm telling you it leads to either pride or despair. Jesus always leads us to humility and joy.
"The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us."
— C.S. Lewis
The biggest problem with religion it always wants to take credit unlike Christians who say Jesus gets all the credit because without Him I can do nothing...
ALL of us that come on here are the REAL DEAL. I know for myself. We all do gain something. A little bit more Freedom each time we share more of what we lived through. It helps to heal to share! And then we also help others from stepping into the same traps that we stepped into!
Dawn, sorry to hear that. Some people here might have some good guidance or advise if don't mind calling. Sometimes it helps to talk about things.
Different people have posted their phone numbers here.
Jeff
L. Travis said:
“Grace is the most amazing, powerful, meaningful, stupendous, awe-inspiring, humbling, pride-killing, unstoppable force in the entire Universe, and it flows from the Father's heart in Christ.”
DnA said:
Amen Larry! After spending more than a decade eating at the "works" table, we were fed a steady diet of rules, laws, ordinances, do's, don'ts, policies, doctrines all forced down our throats by a bunch of tyrants using the threat of eternal fire and brimstone as an alternative to their gospel of works. I have to remind myself that while works do have significance they are a result of something bigger and better and that is God's grace and mercy.
The ntcc bases everything they do on a blueprint. Somewhere in the forty some odd years of silence (that nobody around seems to have an knowledge of) in Rwd's life before the ntcc he hatched a scheme that was devilishly brilliant. He might have a psychology degree because his scheme required psychological manipulation. He saw an opportunity to make his millions off of Christians. He used a perfect system of love and mercy and grace to that was already in place to reach people. Then he misplaced the focus on the negative, ie: hell, judgement, fear and uncertainty. We all started out where all other Christians start and that is at the foot of the Cross.
Rwd's blueprint was to introduce a whole bunch of rules, laws and ordinances that would distract people from a wonderful life of salvation and freedom. The rules were nothing more than a system of controls designed to keep people in their place. The threat of hell would insure obedience without question. The next ingredient that was needed to pull this off was GI's. Who else would be loyal till death. He needed a class of people that had character so he chose the best of what America had to offer. He took the best and introduced us to the best. Many of us got saved and we loved God and those we considered to be the Men of God.
At first we would do anything for God. We were made to believe that we were a part of the only true work of God on planet earth. We watched our leaders mock and tear down every other religion while they lifted up their works doctrine as the only true gospel in existence. We watched as any person with a disagreement was verbally assaulted by our leaders and we silently thanked God that because of our works, this would never happen to us. We worked harder and harder. We prayed and studied. We invited people to church. We watched good people that were our brethren that were there before us get castigated for offenses that were not against God but against the established blueprint of what Rwd expected us to live by. Grace and mercy became less and less important to us. Then we began to see "men of God" kicked to the curb and we worked harder.
Pretty soon many of us found that we were working so hard that we forgot what we were working for. The freedom we once knew was a distant thing of the past. The mercy and grace were so far back in the rear view mirror of our lives that we could hardly see them. I'm ashamed of the way I handled this situation. I left God and church and the brethren and went headlong into sin without any regard of anything but myself. Guess what? Of all people God never forgot about me. When I came back to God it was contrary to everything I'd ever been taught in the ntcc. I not only found out what grace and mercy was all about but I realized in that self-same moment that it was the opposite of everything that the ntcc stands for.
I was the worst or the worse and somehow God did what never was possible in the ntcc. He gave me a clean slate and I don't intend on wasting this opportunity like I did in the ntcc. Not trying to get super spiritual on everybody but I know God's grace and mercy is real. I of all people need it and don't even want to think about what life would be without it.
DnA
DnA, you just spelled it out EXACTLY... Enough said!!!
Bro. Bellamy
Dawn I just wanted to let you know that I prayed for you, and I mean it when I say if there is anything I can do just let me know. Even if it is financially I will do what I can.
Bro. Bellamy
Dawn,
The same goes for me if I can help let me know. I'm praying for you as well and if I can help just let Jeff know he can always contact me.
LTravis
Anonymous said, "It started with the civilian and Servicemen's Home pastors, grooming the young man or woman for not resisting the authority of leaders within NTCC."
Ange says,
Not exactly, anon. It "started" with davis. davis wanted his own org so he could call all the shots. Jeff was correct when he reminded us of davis boasting of this very thing. Anyone around the org for any amount of time has heard davis bragging how he would never allow voting by the congregation, if anyone on his board disagreed with him, they would be off the board, how it's not a democracy, yada, yada, yada, yada. davis started the power trip and established himself as the ntcc's pope (all while denouncing the Catholic Pope).
davis started his 'bible school' to be sure all his preachers were teaching and preaching davis doctrine and taught that the bible school was set up to establish how things should be run in the churches. Naturally the servicemen's directors and preachers in civilian works imitated davis. And from there it is as you said, "grooming the young man or woman for not resisting the authority of leaders within NTCC."
Your comment was right on point except for that one thing. davis is definitely the origin and perpetuator of davis doctrines that hinder the Word of God. Just as Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for making the Word of God of none effect by their vain traditions and teaching for commandments [of God] the doctrines of men, it is right for us to point out these davis doctrines that do away with God's command to honor mother and father and generally undermine the family just so davis can gain a foothold of control and power over peoples' pocketbooks.
Ange
Dawn, let us know if you need some help.
Jeff
Angela said..."Not exactly, anon. It "started" with davis. davis wanted his own org so he could call all the shots. Jeff was correct when he reminded us of davis boasting of this very thing."
It's good to hear a woman tell it like it is and please know that your thoughts are important here on this blog. The point was how it started for many of us and our intro to the authority figures within NTCC. Of course the NTCC rises and falls with RWDs ever scowful face and the sycophants scurry hither and yon at his orders. They look back at him when he's on the platform or as he has his arms crossed in the pew, just to get his approval. He knows when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake...(oh, sorry wrong character). He was "there first" and to not align yourself with him is to be against God, at least that is how we were groomed.
After departing from the Pentecostal Church of God as a missionary and then being at the Carondelet Church of God got a little too hot during the time of "alleged adultery", he broke away from them to salvage his pride. If you have see "The Apostle" with Robert Duvall, there are some unmistakable characteristics that parallel RWD.
Anonymous, now I understand where you were coming from in your original comment. Your comparison to Santa Claus had me laughing. Thanks for the encouragement. But I'm pretty sure I'd be posting even without it [wink].
Ange
My relationship with my parents was tepid at best when I was in NTCC.
NTCC preachers encouraged you to disown your parents. "You have to cut the umblical cord to Mommy" as one famous NTCC preacher used to say.
My relationship with one of my Grandfathers was NOT on good terms when I was in NTCC. I regret leaving angry and leaving him angry IAW NTCC. He passed away, and I will never know if he had bitterness in his heart toward me when he died. I can only pray that God gave him special grace and that he forgave me, but I will never know.
NTCC: Breaking up relationships one soul at a time!
Bro Johnson
Thank you for your concern. It's very much appreciated. =)
Feel free to send me an e-mail at: biblegirl1999@yahoo.com
(I already have your e-mail Bro. Bellamy).
I can then just send a mass e-mail instead of typing one individually.
I've got the gym calling my name so I've better scoot.
Can I ask what you all think of this?
I went to another 'holiness' church here in Hawaii last Sunday. It was a storefront style with about 30 members (about even on both sides - males and females). The first thing that popped out at me was the veils on the women. They just covered the top of their heads, not the faces. It was pretty holy looking and not really moslem looking. The men were on one side and the women on the other.
Afterwards the pastor asked if I had any questions. The discussion quickly landed on veils. I told him I respected their belief about them even though I believed that Paul meant the covering was long hair, but I have read in an early church father writing that the Corinthians literally wore veils. He quickly answered that they wore veils in ALL the churches (not just the Corinthian church), and this was standard for the Christian church and the reason Paul only wrote about it in the letter to the Corinthians was because they weren't doing it.
In our discussion he mentioned their Apostle of Jesus Christ. I recalled that he had been mentioning "the apostle" throughout his sermon. Come to find out the sermon was really not written by the pastor, but was basically based off the letter the "Apostle of Jesus Christ" had written to the churches to prepare them for an annual eucharist in Mexico (their headquarters). Is this starting to remind you of anything? He even showed me that they had perhaps a dozen other letters from this "apostle" in plaques displayed on the wall of the church. To top it all off he said they were going to go sell tacos after the service to raise money to buy a building.
I told him many denominations think their church is the only one, and how did he feel about that? He didn't give me a straightforward answer, but wanted to talk to me some more about it when he has more time to tell me some more things about the church.
I don't know what to think. I am impressed with their holiness, but in light of some of the other things, I wonder if I should be running the other way and never looking back there. What do you think?
For sure if they didn't believe they were the only church, he would have quickly answered me right on the spot.
As far as the letters, I can see how people would say right away that this is devilish because the Bible is the authority, not man. But perhaps you could say that he is following the tradition of Paul in writing letters to the churches that he cares for. Paul commanded that the letters he wrote be read in the churches, too. I don't mean to say he is right or wrong, but I can see how a church leader would come to the conclusion that he should do that.
I hope it's ok with you that I brought this up.
Kris said " I wonder if I should be running the other way and never looking back there. What do you think?"
Run Kris, Run! Run as fast as you can and don't look back! That dude sound like he drank some of that same Kool-aid only more powder was in it!
Run my Brother, Run!
Kris,
You cannot legislate "Holiness", you have escaped the pit of NTCC, why are you looking for something similar?
"As a dog returneth to his vomit"??
You should really know better at this point!
RUN Forest RUN!!!
TB
Kris,
You cannot legislate "Holiness", you have escaped the pit of NTCC, why are you looking for something similar?
"As a dog returneth to his vomit"??
You should really know better at this point!
RUN Forest RUN!!!
TB
LTravis said...
What he said and Kris here is some truth, I trust you will take it. I wouldn't step foot in another building anywhere until you have had a very long (like months) and serious encounter with the Lord. I believe once you've encountered the saving Grace of God then you will begin to understand. God first then others don't get it backwards...
Kris wrote...
I don't know what to think. I am impressed with their holiness, but in light of some of the other things, I wonder if I should be running the other way and never looking back there. What do you think?
Jeff said...
Kris, it sounds too full of the same kind of stuff that exists in the NTCC. I know exactly what to think. Don't go back. Next thing you know, they will expect you to propagate and perpetuate their agenda. In their eyes, their salvation and yours, will revolve around "THEIR" rules and "THEIR" standards.
Bro, at this point you should be able to spot all this a mile away. I'm not saying this as a put down but based on what you described, I would have spotted that the minute I walked in the door. It's clear that these folks believe that their salvation revolves around certain, specific practices and I'll guarantee that they believe that people aren't saved who don't practice the same things.
I'll also guarantee that they have more rules than a yard dog has fleas, and salvation isn't about a bunch of man made rules. Bro, here is the key. YOUR SALVATION has nothing to do with a specific type of church. Your salvation is between you and God and I wouldn't hunt for a quote, "holiness" church in an attempt to solidify a relationship between you and God. You already know what to expect if you start going to this church so I wouldn't bother Bro, but that is your call not mine. Of course you asked for opinions and that is mine.
Jeff
Kristofer said:
"Can I ask what you all think of this? "
Don and Ange said:
Reading this I don't think Kris is considering attending this church, correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds like he dropped in to check it out and asked the right questions. Anyway, I can't picture Kris going from one cult into another, and I don't think that's what he was getting at.
As far as what do we think of it? I'd say it's definitely a controlling group that has many similarities to the ntcc. When you asked the dude if he thinks his church is the only one going to heaven and you didn't get a straight answer, that's a pretty good indicator. "Holiness" is a separate issue in my opinion. I believe there are people that live the "holiness" lifestyle out of sincerity. Now most of the "holiness" people that I have met use "holiness" appearance standards as a badge of honor and in the ntcc it is definitely a control mechanism. Some people live it because there are certain aspects of it in the bible. Modest apparel, hair length and jewelry are personal issues and I think people should be free to make those decisions on a personal level. I do not think that these things make a person any better than anyone else or even make them a better Christian. I don't think that I ever recall Jesus or any of the apostles or early church leaders mentioning anything about these things being a prerequisite for Christianity.
There are a lot of red flags that go up when reading about this church. If it looks like a cult, smells like a cult, feels like a cult and sounds like a cult......
DnA
Wow...don't ministers get on their knees before God anymore asking Him what they shall teach their flock?
Taking someone else's work, getting sermons off the Internet, etc. is no work, prayer or dedication at all for a minister.
Unfortunatly it is happening more and more.
Why pray and seek the face of God when all one has to do is click the 'print' button, right? :-/
Kristofer,
As you can see I wear the headship veiling. Been wearing it since April 2006 whilst in Germany.
At a servicemans home one Monday evening during Q&A, I asked the pastor at that time about the veiling. All he said was 'your long hair is your covering' and moved on to the next question.
Didn't bother to expound on it or any of the other verses in 1 Cor. 11.
I was newly saved at the time so I took that pastor's word for it.
In 2006 I felt called to do a Greek work study on the chapter and that is what led me to cover.
Let me share with you a few of my notes:
If you look at 1 Cor. 11:4, the Greek word for covered is katakaluptomai meaning 'to cover fully, veil, or hide'.
It refers to the veiling of spiritual significance.
When you go to the well known verse in 1 Cor. 11:15 the Greek word for covered is peribolaion which means to 'cast or put about, around, or near'.
It's a woman's natural covering given by God.
Long hair is our glory. We are to cover our glory to give all the glory to God.
1 Cor. 11:10 states 'For this cause a woman ought to have power on her head because of the angels'.
Power means 'privilege, freedom, authority'.
The angels are watching...
It also honors our husbands and shows our place in the headship order as outlined in the beginning of 1 Cor. God ---> Christ ---> Man ---> Woman.
Consider this, if a woman's hair is the covering, then a man would need to shave his head to be uncovered. Also verse 6 would make no sense..
"If the woman be not covered (her hair removed), let her also be shorn."
How can she cut her hair if it has already been removed? =)
This is just a brief summary of my notes on the subject.
It seems like your struggling to find a church that hasn't compromised and gone mainstream. You aren't alone brother...a sister in Christ who left NTCC recently e-mail me the same thing.
They are out there, few and far between, but they do exist.
Just because a church has standards doesn't automatically make it a cult.
As long as the standards aren't put first over the Bible, there is nothing wrong with a Shepherd (pastor) doing his best to keep his flock (the church) from the enticements and entrapments of the world.
Jesus is coming back for a spotless, pure, unblemished church (universally speaking). One that hasn't been tainted by the world.
Dawn, I get what you're saying but its all Greek to me. The United Pentecostal Church, many apostolic (Oneness) and independent Pentecostal Holiness think similarly when it comes to hair. The NTCC always taught that 1 Corinthians 11:6 meant that if you cut your hair in anyway, that this means you are now uncovered (have less than a full covering) and you might as well shave it all off. Let her be covered with uncut hair.
I understand that this blog probably isn't about proving one side wrong and the other right, but how that I won't add my personal convictions to the Bible and condemn others as we've experienced in the NTCC. "We are winning!"
Dawn said:
"Jesus is coming back for a spotless, pure, unblemished church (universally speaking). One that hasn't been tainted by the world."
Don said:
While this is true, we have to realize we don't make the church spotless or unblemished. I'm going to use myself for an example because I don't want to offend. The ntcc has a policy about men wearing facial hair applies to bible school students and also filters down through servicemen's homes. If you were to show up at conference with a beard, you will quickly find out what their stance is on facial hair. The military doesn't allow beards but they allow mustaches. We have to ask ourselves does God care enough about this to make it a salvation issue? If I shaved my face would it make me spotless? If I shaved my face would it make me unblemished?
There is nothing that you can do to make yourself unblemished outside of making a trip to the Cross. Does this give us a license to sin? No, it doesn't but do we have an advocate?
The Jews in the OT could not keep the law of Moses, and we all know that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice, that blots out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, nailing it to the cross. We all know this. When we use doctrinal teachings such as holiness as an attempt to make ourselves pure or holy we fall into the same trap that the ntcc ensnared us with.
We actually believe in holiness but we don't think that it belongs to us. It's God's holiness and who are we to define it? If our own holiness were such an issue, would not Jesus have said anything about it? The words of Jesus make up the largest percent of spoken wisdom in the bible and yet He did not mention a way for us to establish our own holiness.
I think it's great that people want to dress modestly and will hear absolutely no condemnation from me towards anyone that chooses to dress a certain way, or grow their hair or cut it, or facial hair or wear a veil. My thoughts are if you feel good about it and your life is enriched that's wonderful. My problem is when people try to use specific works to set them apart from everyone else who claims Christianity, I refuse to go there. This is what God has delivered us from. Who are we to say that a woman that wears pants is not going to heaven? That woman that cuts her hair and wears make up and pants and ear rings has a far better chance of making it to heaven if she loves her neighbor and God than someone who dresses modestly and could care less about their neighbor. This is the ntcc in a nut shell. They make broad their phylacteries and love greetings in the market places but when it comes to helping those in need, they rely on their own form of outward holiness and God hates this.
The God I've come to know and love is not a cruel taskmaster that expects people to torture themselves and live in bondage of laws and ordinances. This is where we our at in our walk with God and we have come to the place where we realize we can do nothing without God's mercy and grace. I have learned not to judge a book by it's cover and that a person's salvation is between them and God.
DnA
Dawn,
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The reason we're saved by grace through faith is because it puts all of us on a level playing field,(I'm not better than you and vice versa) if you remember the Pharisee’s tried the whole I'm better than you thing it doesn't work. I pray that none of us go back to that thing. I believe with all my heart that we don't deserve God's mercy and grace but there it is in John 3:16.
I can't earn my salvation all I can do is just surrender my will to God and it's because of Jesus that I'm saved. If there are any works it's because of the love of God.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
There's your works, if there is any value in me it's because of the one who is most valuable Jesus Christ my Lord, not me. I'm a sinner saved by grace. I need Him every day in every way. I don't wear any badge of honor and all my righteousness is in Christ alone. I know this, when I die it's my relationship with Christ that gets me to heaven not my affiliation with any denomination or man. The only thing left we can do is trust in God and believe me all my hope is in Him alone. If I've learned anything through my experience with the ntcc is to put all my trust in the Lord and Him alone.
I say this in humility.
Grace is not a license to sin, but a license to be saved.
Anonymous said...
Grace is not a license to sin, but a license to be saved.
LTravis said...
The truth is it's God's grace that kills sin, so help me to understand your statement...
ntcc considered holiness to be outward things
romans 6:22 says
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life
i haven't done an indepth study on what holiness is, but in this verse it sounds like something we receive through Christ and not an outward work.
Now since we are free from sin, we have our fruit unto holiness.
It doesn't say anything about doing additional things. We're free from sin when you become born by the Spirit. You can't force fruit to grow, you just plant the tree and it grows.
You can't force holiness, you just plant (become born again) the tree and the fruit unto holiness grows as you grow in God and mature in Him.
to excerpt this article about rules
http://homechurchhelp.com/the-rules-myth
You live by faith through the Spirit, not by a list of rules. as you live by the Spirit, you'll find yourself keeping Gods commandments, loving others, being pleasing to God, etc..
follow the spirit first, observe behavior second. if you find your behavior not matching up with scripture, then obviously you aren't following the Bible.
doug hardy
Dawn said...
If you look at 1 Cor. 11:4, the Greek word for covered is katakaluptomai meaning 'to cover fully, veil, or hide'.
It refers to the veiling of spiritual significance.
Jeff said...
Dawn, I understand where you are coming from but please consider this. If someone is to be saved, should they have to go through the Bible and figure out word for word all these statutes, translate from Greek? Then we would be once again under the law and you are no longer saved by Grace. I can't imagine that if you are wearing a veil and you are standing next to a lady who is not, that God will take you to heaven and send her to hell if you ladies are otherwise both the same with the same faith. If that was the case then you wouldn't be saved by grace but by the wearing of a veil.
Dawn, please understand I'm not being funny here or critical. I respect you and your views. I'm just being real. What about someone who doesn't know Greek or have the means to get a good translation? Does God give them a break but send the lady to hell who had the means to translate from Greek? If that was the case we wouldn't need the blood but a veil if we were ladies, i.e. the blood wouldn't wash away sins but a veil would.
Now I have no problem with a lady feeling that it is Gods requirement to wear long hair or a veil but those two "actions" don't constitute grounds for salvation, the Blood does. These may be good Christian guidelines but if they are heaven or hell issues, then I see no reason for the blood because the blood broke us free from the bondage of the law.
Think about it. What if you wear a veil your whole Christian life but you miss one part of the Bible that the Lord sees as a good Christian Practice? Do you die and go to hell? If that was the case, then the Blood would be of little significance. That would be like saying, "you should have faith in the blood but you better not miss any of the rules".
Jeff
as far as finding a church to attend,
it's not the church you attend necessarily that makes one right with God. Of course you want to attend a church you enjoy, yet look in Revelation, many of the churches Jesus was talking about weren't perfect. He didn't cast them to hell, he said to repent and change.
It's not the church you attend outwardly, it's Jesus on the inside of you.
You could hear anyone or anything talk about or teach from the bible or something spiritual and gain benefits from it or be blessed by hearing it...
not because the person speaking is anything special necessarily but because you have Jesus in you and you are spiritual, you'll be blessed by hearing His Word.
A sinner would hear the doobie brothers Jesus is just alright with me song and just be hearing a song
A christian on the other hand would actually be hearing, singing something different than the sinner does. You'd actually enjoy singing that lyric.
Not because the doobie brothers are christians, but because you are a christian, Jesus is alright with you.
in case you never heard that song, here it is
http://youtu.be/s3aYJibxMOQ
LOL, i just saw crazy dc talk remade the song. i just listened to it and of course they ruined it.
doug hardy
ha ha, i'm off to work this song will probably be in my head all day now. but that's not a bad thing. :D
see ya'll this evening.
Basically what I'm saying is that at some point, grace has to pick up where works, deeds, rules, and laws leave off or we can all forget about making it to heaven. I don't care how much you study the Bible or how many rules/laws you attempt to follow, you ain't never going to be perfect so I wouldn't put all my stock in not wearing a beard, or long hair or short hear or a veil or pants or a women not working (the last of which incidentally isn't biblical anyway).
While I was in the NTCC I heard all this talk about perfection but I haven't met a perfect person yet. NOWHERE EVEN CLOSE. In fact most (especially guys like Kekel and RWD) are so screwed and crooked it's unbelievable.
If it take perfection, then what was the point of the blood? What are the two greatest commandments? Love the Lord thy God and love thy neighbor. What in the world for example does not wearing a beard or women not working on a job have to do with that? Nothing.
Jeff
Guys,
For the record, I am saved. July or August of this year will be 10 years since I gave my life over to Him.
I don't dress the way I do or live the life I do to earn my salvation, I do it out of obedience to what He has called me to do, plain and simple (no pun intended).
Hasn't God called you to do something and you obeyed? My point exactly. =)
Of course faith without works is dead...it's good for us Christians to work...to visit the elderly and widowed, to visit the prisoners, to be of help to whomever may come in need that crosses our path. That doesn't gurantee us a spot in Heaven. We do these things because we have the servant heart of Jesus.
As far as Women wearing long hair and no makeup? I personally believe that you can't divorce the historical context of what Paul is telling the Church at Corinth. During that time a woman was believed to be a prostitute or a woman of ill repute if she wore makeup. Now, In this day and age and culture makeup and short hair no longer have that stigma attached to them. plain and simple.
All to many times I believe that people want to teach the LETTER of the law, without teaching it's true meaning and the intent in which it was said in the 1st place. You simply can't ignore the historical content, or context. Simple Hermeneutics.
once again everyone is off topic caught up in endless meaningless debate on stupid so called holiness issues
The Mountain is high, The valley is low. So we're confused on which way to go. So out from hear, Just give us a hand, and lead us into the promised land.
Oops......HERE, Not HEAR!!!!!!!
Jeff said:
"Dawn, I understand where you are coming from but please consider this. If someone is to be saved, should they have to go through the Bible and figure out word for word all these statutes, translate from Greek?"
Dawn said:
Having long hair, veiling, beards, mustaches, pants, skirts, etc are not a salvation issue. They could be an obedience issue for those who are seeking a much more deeper and intimate walk with Him.
It is good for a Believer to know that the OT was written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek because it's good to look up certain words in their original context to see how it relates to the passage.
Jeff said:
"I can't imagine that if you are wearing a veil and you are standing next to a lady who is not, that God will take you to heaven and send her to hell if you ladies are otherwise both the same with the same faith. If that was the case then you wouldn't be saved by grace but by the wearing of a veil."
Dawn said:
Wearing a veil or a dress or a pair of trousers doesn't save not one soul. There are going to be all kinds of fabulous people in Heaven.
The externals is all about obedience to what He is calling that individual to do.
Indeed everyone is saved by grace and not by works. =)
Jeff said:
"What about someone who doesn't know Greek or have the means to get a good translation? Does God give them a break but send the lady to hell who had the means to translate from Greek?"
Dawn said:
Of course not. It is however the Christians duty to 'study to show themselves approved'.
We in America are so blessed with libraries with lots of books and free Internet access where we can research for free. One can even check out better Bible translations if they wanted.
Same thing in other countries.
If the means are there for the Believer, there is no reason for them not to go research more about the God who saved them.
Jeff said:
"Now I have no problem with a lady feeling that it is Gods requirement to wear long hair or a veil but those two "actions" don't constitute grounds for salvation, the Blood does."
Dawn said:
Exactly.
Jeff said:
"These may be good Christian guidelines but if they are heaven or hell issues, then I see no reason for the blood because the blood broke us free from the bondage of the law."
Dawn said:
Already said they aren't salvation issues but obedience to the Word after the person is saved.
All I was trying to do was share with Kristofer the significance of the veil since he doesn't quite understand it, this wasn't meant to get into a debate about works vs. grace at all.
Dawn...
I wish that ALL women would dress as modestly as you do!!! God Bless you Ma'am.
Mark G. said...
Dawn...
I wish that ALL women would dress as modestly as you do!!! God Bless you Ma'am.
LTravis said...
I know what you mean Mark; I won't debate that, having said that the whole purpose of grace is summed up in this verse. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
How are you doing Mark?
Try looking at those women as a) lost or b) saved and pray for them. You'll find lust becomes less of an issue when you are praying for their souls.
Agreed anonymous.
Same thing goes for the menfolk. I've seen enough white pasty arms and legs, shirtless, men to last me a life time.
I know it's HOT, I live in Texas, but cover that mess up folks =) A t-shirt and a pair of jeans or those nice airable athletic pants goes a long way.
Dawn said...
All I was trying to do was share with Kristofer the significance of the veil since he doesn't quite understand it, this wasn't meant to get into a debate about works vs. grace at all.
Jeff said...
I understand that totally Dawn and we are on the same sheet of music. I just think the church that Kris described is too much like the NTCC. That was the original gist of the whole discussion. I'm with you though Dawn and as long as someones beliefs don't negatively effect others, I have no problem with them. When they do, I have a huge problem with them. A veil doesn't fall in that category. If someone doesn't believe that the wearing of a veil is important, then don't wear one or don't go to a church that teaches the practice. It's just that simple. I have no problem with you wearing one at all and I mean that sincerely.
I appreciate your input here Dawn and I also mean that sincerely.
Jeff
"once again everyone is off topic caught up in endless meaningless debate on stupid so called holiness issues."
People should not be admonished for asking questions sincerely.
ns
Anonymous said...
"Try looking at those women as a) lost or b) saved and pray for them. You'll find lust becomes less of an issue when you are praying for their souls."
Being pretty close to my mid 50's, Lust isn't the problem here.I can understand how it could be for others though.
I'll be quiet at this point....I don't want to have any of my comments deleted.
I'm doing OK, Larry. Thanks for asking. Mark
Mark G said, "Now, In this day and age and culture makeup and short hair no longer have that stigma attached to them. plain and simple.
Mark, You're spot on! This is called being culturally relevant. Holiness is a condition of the heart and not some Pharisee standing over you regulating what you should put on or off.
Sometimes I wish there were "like" buttons on here so we can 'like' each others comments without having to post a comment ourselves saying we liked something. =)
I liked your post Rev. Reed. =)
ns said...
"once again everyone is off topic caught up in endless meaningless debate on stupid so called holiness issues."
People should not be admonished for asking questions sincerely.
Jeff said...
It happens around here and the good thing is we have the freedom to express differing opinions. You won't find that in the NTCC. Disagree with RWD or a good many NTCC leaders and see what happens. You'll get blasted from the pulpit the first chance the preacher gets and he'll do it in front of everyone. Don't try to talk back or you'll be shown the door. Yeah debates occur on this blog and I've come to the conclusion that's going to happen every now and then.
Many of us have left the NTCC but still, different religious views exist. Religion seems to have that effect on people. My mother refuses to even discuss religion at all. She has her views and she doesn't plan to change them and she doesn't impose them on anyone else and she doesn't expect anyone else to impose their's on her.
Doctrinal discussions or debates often arise among religious people, Christian and otherwise. So what is the answer? Not discuss doctrine at all? Who knows.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
You'll find lust becomes less of an issue when you are praying for their souls.
Jeff said...
Recognizing that a women is attractive or appealing is not a sin. If a woman looks good she looks good. I don't care how much you cover up. If a woman is pretty or built like a brick house she can have on a bed spread and buddy you can still tell. It's natural for women to look good to men and visa versa. It's more of an issue from a biblical standpoint when you make up your mind that if you could get with her or him, you would do it outside of marriage. Recognizing that a man or a women is sexy is no big deal. Deciding that you'd have sex with them if you had a chance is a whole different story.
Having said that, having sex with someone is a whole lot less destructive to mankind than the way the NTCC leadership uses people while driving wedges between family members just because someone doesn't want to be part of their church. I'm not advocating either but if I had to choose, I'd rather be friends with the sex fiend.
Jeff
Jeff said "I'm not advocating either but if I had to choose, I'd rather be friends with the sex fiend."
Jeff, I know you didn't mean that to be funny, but I'm enjoying a good laugh over that one. You have quite a way with words, my brother. I enjoy reading your take on things, you are as real as it gets.
mdr
Something along these lines that I thought was interesting concerning dressing modestly. My wife and I were talking about that very same subject awhile back and she made a comment to me that surprised me. She said that women don't dress to be seen or talked about necessarily by men. She went on to say that women,by and large for the most part, dress the way they do for the competition.(other women) of course, some of what I'm saying depends on where they happen to be, and who is going to be there.
All the girls walk by dressed up for each other Van Morrison, Wild Night
I can only speak for myself but, I would like to add that as a woman who has had to put up with ridiculous "holiness standards" for the last several years.....
I dress for me, and no one else. My hair (my glory) is an extension or expression of me, along with my clothes, and makeup. I don't dress for men or to compete with other women.
My husband preached an amazing message on Sunday... worship in Spirit and Truth....
The truth being the word of God and the Spirit being the Spirit of God. THe 2 have to line up. If you have all the truth without the right spirit than you are messed up! Religion and holiness are spirits.... do not get caught up in it. If you have left NTCC why in the world are you continuing in religious spirits? Why do you think when someone starts coming to NTCC all of the sudden they have Mormons or JW's at their door... there is a religious spirit following them around. Ya'll need to pray that junk away from you!!!!
Furthermore... go read Galatians, Philippians, and colossions!
dawn,
not everyone has the internet
i have been in cambodian villages with missonaries and there is no internet or other modern conveniences that we take for granted.
they lived well and comfortable though and loved God and others.
doug hardy
Hi everyone. If any of you get a chance to comment on that trip I made to the holiness church, I'd really appreciate it.
Just kidding! A little bit of Jim Carrey type of humor- sorry.
I guess I have a lot to pray about. I think it's great that we are proving that many Christians can disagree about a topic and act civilly towards one another and (hopefully) no one feels like they have to convert or leave!
I like your interpretation of ch. 11 Dawn, but I have to agree with what someone else said after you, namely that the uncut hair was referred to not just simply hair. Paul said if she be not covered let her be shorn. In the end he says her "hair that she lets grow" (greek translation) is her covering. Therefore using logic, we could say that he said, if she does not let her hair grow she should just shave it all off. This is the way I interpret it, and that's why I advised my wife not to cut her hair, but since that time, I think it is too strict to say that you can NEVER trim it if you are a woman to make it look neat. I think the idea is simply that a woman should have long hair and a man short hair, and the longer the hair is on a woman, the more glory it gives her (or respect), and if her hair is short like a man, then it is a symbol that she does not want to fulfill her role as a woman, etc. etc. but I know this is not the place to propagate personal holiness doctrines. I respect others' valid interpretations of this text. This is just mine. Also, of course, long hair does not guarantee that God is pleased with a woman. I agree with Don and Anges' point about how pharisaical it is to look holy but not act like you care about your brother or sister.
Reminds me of the good samaritan. The 2 who ignored the man coming from Jerusalem (I assume he was also a jew) were religious jews, priest and a Levite. The one who helped them was the despised Samaritan. This parable does not have the full effect on Christianized Americans who already are familiar with the term 'samaritan' and relate it with someone who does good things. It would maybe be like saying in modern terms, Kekel and Davis walked past the filipina sister who needed money for food and kept walking, but some sinner invited her over for a meal, or a "worldly" church found her and gave her a meal.
I remember one sister sharing somewhere how they were struggling to make ends meet and some local church (not NTCC) helped them and asked them why their org doesn't support them. How shameful for Davis and Kekel.
Then there was that poor reverend who bought the parsonage and was full-on motivated about his work, but had a wife and like 3 daughters. He had his own blog, and shared how strict they were about going to conference. He said he tried to explain to Olson that he couldn't afford to go that year, but was coerced into going and led to believe that they would help him out with his finances. He got there and some minister that owed him money anyway, gave him the money he owed him at Conference, but he went to Olson to ask for the help from them, too. He kept getting put off until he said it was the very last night of conference and even AT THE END OF FELLOWSHIP at the last night of conference! He had to stand there and wait for them to count the money and finally got I think like 78 dollars.
Just remembered the name, Kurt Waltermeier.
Can anybody say "Given the dog a bone." a litle AC-DC lyric for ya!
We recently heard from a guy that lived in the Servicemen's home in Fort Bragg back in the 80's. He told us that he had thought about looking the ntcc up and attending their church again but he found the blogs and realized that they were a cult. The sad thing about it is that he found another cult and decided to join up with them. This cult that he joined up with is one that believes you have to sell all your worldly possessions and give them to the church leaders. They also believe that Jesus is not really Jesus but that He is to be called Yahweh. This is another cult that is every bit as destructive as the ntcc.
The Angel told Mary: "Thou shalt call his name Jesus". Also Acts 4 says, "That there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved". You don't have to do a huge study of what the original greek says and you don't need to be a bible scholar, but folks Jesus is still the Savior. This is just another avenue for greedy church leaders to use to obtain more money and power. Another guy that I talked to in this cult says that they live by the Old Testament law keeping many of the feasts and sacraments. We all know that the Old Testament law is impossible to be kept.
I believe that God's plan for salvation is simple and the most unknowing of all can call on the name of Jesus and be saved. One doesn't have to have a Strong's concordance to translate the name of Jesus, but if you must it translates Jesus not Yahweh. It was pronounced e-a-su's the e and a having a line over them and the u having two dots over it. We pronounce his name as Jesus in English. I believe that If God wanted us to pronounce His name Yahweh, and that if this was so important, that instead of finding the name Jesus over 900 times in the New Testament you would have Yahweh written 900 times in the New Testament.
This cult and many others like it want to keep the law in effect and that's what Yahweh is all about. They want to use the OT law as a control mechanism for their members just like the ntcc used "holiness" as a control mechanism. The more rules you can impose on the life of a Christian the more control you have over them. We exist to warn people that the ntcc is a cult because we do not want to see lives destroyed and wasted. People leave the ntcc and join other cults that are just as destructive. If we turn a blind eye to this we are enabling instead of helping.
We are not trying to stir up a hornets nest here but we are very outspoken about the spiritual abuse that so many of us have suffered under the guise of Christianity. Our goal is for people to realize that they can have Christ outside of the ntcc or any other cult as well. The first step is to recognize the cult and then expose it. We don't want to see anyone hurt in any cult again. If we know that you are headed for destruction and we don't warn you than how can we say we love you?
We are far from perfect and don't have all the answers. I believe that God's plan is simple but we make it complex by complicating the grace and mercy of God. It's not enough just to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself, but we have to have a whole bunch of laws and ordinances to interpret and make that which is simple so complex. I think if we pray about issues and ask God for wisdom, He will give it to us. When we make everything legalistic by labeling things as heaven or hell issues we find ourselves in the same quandary as we were while members of the ntcc.
DnA
Anonymous said,
" there is a religious spirit following them around. Ya'll need to pray that junk away from you!!!!
Furthermore... go read Galatians, Philippians, and colossions!
July 14, 2011 1:42 AM"
DnA say,
And there it is, folks, in a nutshell. Amen, amen, and Amen!
Kris said,
"Kekel and Davis walked past the filipina sister who needed money for food and kept walking, but some sinner invited her over for a meal, or a "worldly" church found her and gave her a meal."
DnA say,
Yeah, Kris. That is exactly how it would go today! Perfect translation to the present day.
I like the words of Brother Bellamy. I was with him in Germany when he was still in the Army we use to soul win together. I know the Brother really loves God Him and his wife. I am praying for all everyone who has left NTCC and the ones who are still there. I pray that God does a work in the organization. I left some years ago. I had seen things but was scared to leave because i had put so much into the men of the church and once i relized it was man and not God i left and God has Blessed my ministry 100 fold. I have since become a pastor on a military base. Still preaching the Gospel and real Holiness not just wearing a dress and not watching TV or cutting of the hair, but truly living for God and telling people about Jesus. I thank God for NTCC even though it was not perfect but it was what i needed at the time. And now i can truly love souls and serve God for who He is. God bless evryone of you your stories have been a great help in my own healing. And Bro Ed. I got your number i will call you soon.
Bro. Raymore
Hip, hip, hooray! Just got a comment from an anonymous poster who confirmed that Rev. Barnes did leave ntcc and is preaching elsewhere.
Same poster also says Rev. Ivory is 'gone' too.
"He set me free, yes, He set me free!
He broke the chains of bondage for me! I'm glory bound, my Jesus to see.... Oh glory to God He set me free!" from the ntcc
Hi to Juan Raymore,
That was a good comment you left. Nice to know God is still moving (smile). If you don't mind us asking, where were you working for ntcc right before you left? Thanks. DnA
I am anonymous for now for a reason. But to answer some of your questions and to set at liberty your thoughts. YES, it is true that Pastor Barnes has left ntcc, effective 4th April 2011. Furthermore, he's doing well and still preaching the gospel to hungry & thirsty souls. Pastor Barnes is one of the greatest friends and confidants I've ever known. Pat even mentioned that he was one of the greatest ministers of the gospel and I totally agree. I make this statement with the uttmost honesty and integrity. I must remain anon for now, but not always. Also, for the record, Rev. Ivory is gone.
I found this on youtube, I am not sure if they are NTCC, could someone check and let me know if they can identify these possible board members?
Thanks,
TB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCCUUi5rx-0
I'll guarantee you that Rev. Barnes is preaching the gospel to his congregation and that R. Terry has an empty building that he presides over. I can't imagine anybody in that church forsaking their Pastor and following R. Terry, but who knows!
TB - The video you put up looks like Ashmore and Curry tag teaming on a revival. Ashmore is probably the most "charismatic" out of the bunch and he does the Holy Ghost face scrunch, spin and boog-a-loo during most services. Some revivals he'll have people doing everything from touching their toes to holding their open wallets and purses up to the sky. Most of his blog is a copy of Kenneth E. Hagin, who is a copy of EW Kenyon and A.J. Gordon.
The really sad thing about Barnes is that when he retired, he basically went back to this area using alot of his own finances. He had a military retirement, so he didn't have to worry about a job and he knew the area and the spiritual climate of the people. He was there about 10 years and that building will always belong to NTCC:
http://www.co.hinds.ms.us/pgs/apps/landroll_detail.asp?ID=833-140
10/25/2001 - They recorded a deed (5465-0024) of this church with Hinds County when this was received from Abundant Life Apostolic Church. This may/may not have been gifted to them because there doesn't seem to be a sales document.
Was reading and came across this scripture:
Luke 3:10-14
"And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."
Wow, John the Baptist didn't say anything about paying tithe or giving in offerings, nothing about holiness or attending five church services a week, nothing about soul winning or handing out church cards, nothing about attending mandatory conferences or wearing white shirts, wing tips and paisley ties, nothing about ntcc style religion at all, but rather of showing common decency to our fellow human being; can you imagine that concept?
When is the last time you heard an ntcc preacher talk about giving someone a coat or anything to someone in need? He told the publicans to exact no more than that which was appointed them. Does the ntcc practice this?
This is what Christianity is all about. So many people want to make it more difficult than it was intended to be. What shall we do? Let's live by a whole bunch of rules and standards that we make up along the way and give all of our money and time to a bunch of money hungry heathen so they can sit on the throne of the empire they created living in luxury and excess while they make our lives miserable. Does anybody see the contrast here?
DnA
Attention all NTCC'rs:
Take a close look at the leaders of your group. What gospel are they preaching? Ask your self this question:
What are my priorities as a Christian?
Then ask this question:
Do my leaders emulate Christ or John the Baptist?
Let's compare:
The two greatest commandments are to love God and your neighbor. (According to Jesus)
The two greatest commandments are All Christians pay tithe and give in offerings. (According to the ntcc)
How often do your leaders teach common decency to your fellow human being? When have you practiced common decency to your fellow human being?
Point being, the ntcc is all about working your way to heaven. The example that the ntcc leadership sets and you choose to live by stinks unto high heaven. When you give as unto the Lord but you know that your money is going to be used to make a few families rich while others are struggling, is this what the Lord intended? How often do you see ntcc leaders practicing what Jesus taught in reference to giving and helping the poor?
NTCC'ers, I respectfully request that you take a close look at the life of Jesus and compare that to ntcc board leaders and ask yourself the question:
Are we really emulating Christ?
Why do we care? Because we and many others have stood where you stand. You can't get these years of your life back. The years of your youth are the most productive years of your life and they are being wasted for the profit of a few greedy people. Don't make the same mistake that we made. We ask you in all sincerity to consider the obvious contrast between Jesus and the ntcc leadership.
DnA
How often do your leaders teach common decency to your fellow human being? When have you practiced common decency to your fellow human being?
posted by D&A
How about when your out there trying to "soul win" folks to come to a ntcc church service. Your only contact with them is only for church bussiness only! You are not allowed to become real friends with them. Go and visit them a Follow Up. the Sole purpose is to get them to church. Not to win a soul to Christ. That is the reason you should be out looking for lost souls. Is to bring them back into the fold. Not JUST to bring them to church. where can ntcc can bash them over the head with there FALSE TEACHINGs. And in the end usually runs them off. Then tell us they just didn't want to serve God,RIGHT!!!!
One example and true story. Had a dear old lady I had helped to invite out. Pearl was her name in Pyallup. She did want company and to come out to church. Once she stopped coming we HAD to stop visiting her. That company was just as effective as her sitting in a church building. I for one and not stuck on a church building being where I get fed or learn the word of God. OJT does alot more then just sitting in a pew(my two cents there,lol)
April
Here's the link for the video TB was talking about: ntcc Board Members? "The Lawd uses that jacuzzi in mYsTeRiOuS ways!"..."You got it all wrong! What I do is operate a trust fund for the Lawd!" "Extravagant? Hmmpf! THIS Rolex is not extravagant. It's the bottom of the line." "The way through forgiveness is by giving. ... In order to be forgiven, you must go to the root of the word: GIVE!"
PRICELESS
"Money orders only! No food stamps!"
He even has the same head movements, head cocked and hunched over look, fake smile that Ashmore has while he is preaching. Then those oversized old fashioned glasses that alot of NTCC ministers wore to emulate RWD.
Yeah....“The 595 Club” aka “The First Church of Discount Sin” – Reverend Ed Cash and Dr. Reverend Carl Pathos want you to feel the Holy Spirit, and empty your bank account. While there is still time, bring those heavy wallets and purses to the altar...
Yes-ah its true AH,the First Church of Discount Sin (NTCC) AH has been voted the number one church in the nation - AMEN.I would like to thank Brother Farter, Bro. Pathos and Brother Rod N. Blueballs and Bro. Ben Dover and Sister Roaming for all the support AH AMEN. I would like to announce AH that we are having T-shirts made AH to contribute to the Lawd's Trust Fund AMEN. Grant's starting another semester too AH, so yah need to (insert fast pace Southern Gospel music) "get down on your knees and pour out your" wallets to him..."
Join us on Facebook -
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-First-Church-of-Discount-Sin/161865477203212
Hopefully Barnes & co. reached out to that lady visitor he insulted.
Sometimes the pure arrogance of Kekel and RWD is amazing and they have that same look that Obama does with jutting his chin out and nose up, "dripping and oozing" (Thanks TPJ) of pride. They purse their lips when you begin to ask something direct or you mention something that contradicts everyone's image of them, especially if it is from their pasts.
You can't tell them nothing and when you question them, they look down on you with disdain as if to say "How dare you question me, I am the only one staying Hell's flames from you and I am in authority over you". Hopefully this group gets disbanded by the FBI, IRS, and Department of Justice.
It's interesting that some "churches" and organized crime organizations have one thing in common: they both can break the law for years and years and not get caught and put in jail for it.
Al Capone contracted syphilis which in turn developed into paresis [wiki]: a general paralysis of the insane; victim presents psychotic symptoms of sudden and dramatic onset . Who'd a thunk it? After all those years of gang activity, VD was his undoing. Another similarity with the organization...
Don and Ange said...
"Who'd a thunk it? After all those years of gang activity,"
LTravis said...
One thing is for sure, God knows how to clean house, often times man thinks he's getting away with "stuff" in the end one of two things happens, either repentance or destruction. I don't claim to be a theologian but one thing I know, Jesus will have the last word.
Two-headed snake a danger to itself'''
Two heads are better than one — until it’s feeding time.
A two-headed snake in a Ukraine zoo demands extra attention while being fed because its heads compete for food. (Yes, it has only one stomach.) Zookeepers have to place a divider between the heads at feeding time
AFP reports snakes hunt other reptiles, zookeepers are also worried the heads might try to eat each other.
Interesting story...
Interesting snake story.
I just read a commentary note which brings a proper balance into our situation. We are trying to "un-teach" ourselves what NTCC taught us. The problem is, what is the proper thing to TEACH ourselves as Christians now that we see through the facade. See, the devil takes the truth and twists it for alterior motives.
One might say that NTCC would teach that the moral of the account of Peter and Andrew and James and John leaving their fathers and following Jesus means that ALL Christians should "cut the umbilical cord" and forsake their families and follow their church organization wherever they tell you to go, and if you go to b.s. call your parents once a month to kind of keep them off Kekel's back.
BUZZZZ... Wrong!
I like what this commentator said, which is a more balanced moral of this account.
"But they left their father, because he would have hindered them in following Christ. Do thou, also, when thou art hindered by thy parents, leave them, and come to God. It is shewn by this that Zebedee was not a believer; but the mother of the Apostles believed, for she followed Christ, when Zebedee was dead."
Though he does not water down the admonition to follow Christ and to love Christ more, he gives the provision of mercy. Not ALL parents need to be forsaken in order to maintain salvation. The admonition of Davis to us that (paraphrasing) "you can't reach your family" and so on is radical and cultish leading to un-Christ-like behavior in my opinion.
Also I have recently discovered that according to one source it can be deduced from comparing certain scriptures in the Gospels that Jesus and John the younger son of Zebedee were cousins.
I was just thinking about all the people that are connected to my family on Facebook that I don't know anything about. After 13 years in NTCC I have hardly any close relations. I know a lot of people on a very superficial level. I have some good friendly relations with people, but I could not just call hardly any of them for help if I needed it, or to just go do something for fun if I felt like it, because I don't know them on a personal level. I just think of all the people I would probably know right now had I not forsaken my family after joining NTCC. I might have been able to do what my wife and I were able to do with her family- that is, to start a church with them.
Final note then I'll prepare for my wife's family's Sunday school in the Philippines. I think this may be their last one with my wife by the way, before my wife (by God's grace) may come here. Her interview for her visa to come here is scheduled for next Friday. I hope some of you can pray for her. Thanks.
Anyways... my final note is this: I am so glad I didn't teach my wife to forsake her family in order to follow me to Heaven. Instead I helped her to reach her own family which was her natural instinctive desire once she became saved.
Jeff,
When you get a chance check out the Rendla thread.
When King David committed adultery and the man threw stones at him, David acknowledged his sin and commanded nothing to be done to him; David humbled himself.
(This man also said that he had confirmed the adultery that Pastor Davis committed when he was part of the other organization. So it wasn't for "holiness" reasons that Pastor Davis started NTCC.)
I say we keep throwing stones!
1Ki 2:8 And, behold, thou hast with thee Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite of Bahurim, which cursed me with a grievous curse in the day when I went to Mahanaim: but he came down to meet me at Jordan, and I sware to him by the LORD, saying, I will not put thee to death with the sword.
1Ki 2:9 Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood.
You Need to Read More
Anonymous,
I believe the point is davids humility when being confronted with his sin compared to the ntcc leadership. Its easier to point out the illustrations shortfall than to deal with your dilemma of being stuck with ntcc, isn't it? I use to be in your shoes. Life is better on this side, trust me.
Btw, would the prophet nathan be an acceptable illustration for you?
Eric
David Hickman said...
This man also said that he had confirmed the adultery that Pastor Davis committed when he was part of the other organization. So it wasn't for "holiness" reasons that Pastor Davis started NTCC.
What man are you talking about? What organization are you talking about...PCG? That's a serious charge to make without some validation. I've heard that charge frequently but it's never been backed up.
one thing you cannot blame ntcc is making connections,strong friendships since leaving ntcc. That is all on you! We have only been gone a few years. I have made some strong,true friends for life. And NONE of them do I need to REACH for God! Might help you to not just to look at people as folks you need to reach,bring them to God! People are just people. You can share alot more by just living your life!! Without saying a word or showing them bible,pamphlets,ect.... Get out there with people where they live. Waiting for them to come to you is not going to help matters.
April
It is really easy to unteach yourself from ntcc false teachings. WIPE your SLATe clean. Exactly what I did. In many ways I would rather start out as a babe in Christ. Then think is this biblically right,is this false teaching??? Been out for a few years. And I started going to one Bible study,ladies studies. Gotten more out of those activities then from Church!! I do not feel the Devil is going to try and twist the truth. we give the devil alot more then he is due!!! Let God guide your walk and your decisions. You will form that relationship and not a "Christianity,religion!
April
April said...
In many ways I would rather start out as a babe in Christ.
Kris says...
Right on, April. I had someone fuming at me for trying to explain to them that if you are a pastor in NTCC, you are still a babe in Christ, because you don't truly understand so many concepts of true Christianity yet. I did a lot of studying on my own after I left NTCC. I didn't want one single denomination to teach me their close-minded parochial version of the Gospel. I listened to a lot of people, but I endeavored to apply the Berean rule of checking the scriptures for myself to see if these things were true.
I think too many pastors may latch onto David as their mascot for Christianity, an Old Testament model. It's too bad because he was not a model Christian leader, and God's declaration that he was a man after His own heart was made before he sinned with Bathsheba and killed her husband.
Also, the people who betrayed David are portrayed as the bad guys in the OT, and everyone who stayed loyal to David, the good guys.
So people are perhaps afraid to leave a corrupt church because they think that they should stay with the proverbial "David church," the corrupted church that got caught but is still "God's church."
But Nathan was not wrong for rebuking the king, and David REPENTED honestly for what he had done wrong. Could that be the reason why Nathan and ultimately God gave him a second chance at being God's anointed and for cursing everyone who cursed him? Hmmmm.
Now line up David with Davis.
DAVID: "I have sinned against the LORD."
DAVIS: "If I've offended anybody, I'm sorry. But I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG!"
Not exactly comin' clean, if you ask me.
Davis and David: no comparison. Sorry.
I don't see David as being a model Christian, but through him we see the mercy of God that we can all experience if we turn to God in true humble repentance- no matter how bad we have been. But to turn it around and think that others should not betray me no matter how bad I am, because I am "God's anointed" is a poor application of the situation with David in the Bible.
"What man are you talking about? What organization are you talking about...PCG? That's a serious charge to make without some validation. I've heard that charge frequently but it's never been backed up."
Oh man! That is just like davis in the pulpit slandering anyone who leaves ntcc... no proof... all slander and gossip and bitter negativity and lies
You really do reap what you sow!
It's harvest time for davis!
"Davis and David: no comparison. Sorry."
Not even on the same PLANET!!!
"God's declaration that he was a man after His own heart was made before he sinned with Bathsheba and killed her husband."
God had the writer of the book of Acts repeat the declaration when the Apostle Paul was preaching about Israel's King Saul being rejected:
"And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will." Acts 13:22
Does this new testament witness verify God's view of David being a man after God's own heart?
Yes, at THAT TIME, he was a man after God's own heart. I could say it again NOW. David replaced Saul as king, being a man after God's own heart. Doesn't change the fact that the historical context of my statement is "pre-Bathsheba era." Anyways, whether you agree with me on that, and I may not even hold what I said about him being a model to Christians as rock-solid doctrinally, you still would have a hard time making Davis a similar model of repentance as David. David WAS a good "repenter." Davis apparently is not.
Typical ntcc shenanigans. You pick the one questionable point in what I said and ignore the huge point that I made that you apparently can NOT refute. Nice try.
Tithe
Dawn,
Bro. Bellamy is correct, I was the Indian guy that was in the MEDEVAC Unit. Lol. Bro. Raymore brought me in. Around that time, Rev. Dennis was in town and I believe he was the one who invited me to stay in the servicemens home if I'm not mistaken. I attended NTCC in Junction City from 2002 to 2003. And I remember going soul winning with Bro. Johnson and Bro. Stephens from time to time. I'm still kind of, in shock, seeing people I could possibly know on here. For almost a year, I was caught up. I lost some family and friends (who I later reconciled with) around that time because they thought I was crazy and caught up in a cult. When I finally left, it wasn't on good terms or anything. I had some issues that I eventually gave to the Lord and now I'm nearly finished with college and fulfilling my obligations. I find encouragement in reading some your posts. God bless you all.
Bro. Dustin
David was a man after God's own heart PERIOD!!!
Search the scriptures. David does not seem to have been on the same terms with God after his career as king. God made promises to him that he kept, but I don't think David is type to hold as a role model for Christians. Come on, Mark. How many other examples in the Bible do we have of men who were great men of God besides David? He had tons of wives and concubines, slept with a woman he wasn't married to, and then killed her husband. The greatest lesson we can learn from David is not, in my opinion, how to serve God, but how much mercy God HAS for us.
God didn't let him build a place to worship Him in. What does that say?
My point was simply that church leaders like Davis seem to glorify David a little too much and emulate his style of rough rule over the people (emulating his strictness in judging men who were traitors to him, etc.)
Then they seem to emulate his son who the Bible has some very negative things to say about (he followed his fathers' footsteps in woman appreciation compounding unto himself many wives and concubines until they turned his heart from the Lord). Davis seemed to emulate Solomon in his building a grandiose cathedral and then making himself a mansion around the same time.
I don't think Old Testament kings are good examples for us to emulate as Christians. Jesus said that we can not put new wine in old wineskins. I like what the Macarthur Study Bible says about this. He believes that it means the New Covenant from Jesus is an inward law written on the heart. It is a new covenant and OLD things can not be applied to it. He refers to fasting because that was the context of that passage (they asked him why his disciples fasted not. I say the same thing goes for who we choose to emulate.
Once again, the greatest lesson I learn from David is, yes, how to repent, but more imporantly I learn of the mercy of God that he will have on us.
Not saying David didn't do some good things, and likewise Solomon did, too.
I have tried to only share information that I have witnessed firsthand. I regret that I did share information that I did not witness firsthand that dealt with the possible origin of NTCC. I had been reading through the archives and there were those that shared proof of adultery and then the Bro. that I mentioned gave some very convincing statements of his firsthand contact with someone that was in the church (PCG I believe) at the time. These two witnesses had the ring of truth, but I still should not have shared it unless it was firsthand and therefore I regret it. I always try to think and pray before I post anything to this blog.
That being said, my purpose was to focus on how David humbled himself. If NTCC leadership would have humbled themselves and talk to us when we had questions or even begin to now, then I believe that most of these blogs would never have existed. When legitimate questions are asked, in my experience, they have said that the devil is lying to me or that I am in a battle. If I am in a battle it is not the devil that has caused it but the NTCC system, and if they would only give honest answers to questions and also begin to look at how they operate and make the necessary changes then many of these blogs would disappear; at least I would no longer post.
And now back to David…
The Bible does not say that God judged Shimei; it was David and Solomon that set the trap for him. But Shimei seemed to have an attitude about him that NTCC seems to have. If you leave or have problems with how they operate then they throw stones at you by telling those that remain that you left because you wanted sin or compromise when they know in many cases that is not the truth. They will bring up something that you shared with them from the past and say that you never made it right. Or they will say that you are not a team player, that you were disloyal, selfish, and sold out your team as stated in Rev. Kekel’s Sermons, Lessons, and other stuff.
I know in my heart that I could have stayed with NTCC and still be saved by God’s grace, but I knew that I would have had to buck a system that I did not believe in, and I knew that it would have only caused me grief, so I decided to leave and start fresh. We all have seen what happens to someone that decides that they are no longer going to go with the flow and it is not a pretty sight.
To those that remain in NTCC. Just because we speak out against the things that are apparently wrong in the NTCC does not mean that we are wrongfully “touching” God’s anointed. The Bible says for the children to honor their father and mother, but it also says that fathers should not provoke their children to wrath. Parents are just as responsible for their children’s reactions as children are responsible to honor their parents. As a pastor I evaluated more about how I dealt with people in preaching and one on one than I did with what they did or how they lived. I understood that my actions could help or hurt their relationship with God and wanted to make sure that what I said and did was God and not just me. NTCC leadership also has a responsibility not to provoke its members to wrath. Most of us are preachers and former pastors, and they have that same responsibility to us. The Bible always teaches a two way responsibility. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their one way responsibility. I would ask you if you do not see this same one way responsibility in NTCC?
Read and study Ephesians 6:1-9 and also 1Peter 5:1-5
Bro. Bellamy
It's funny how RWD and different ones will take OT examples out of context in order to suit the message they are trying to present. Many times it is one of sacrifice, loyalty, or authoritarian rule. It always takes the focus off of Christ and His Blood, removes the work that the Holy Spirit would do, and does more to abuse the sheep than lead them.
Anonymous said,
"It's funny how RWD and different ones will take OT examples out of context in order to suit the message they are trying to present. Many times it is one of sacrifice, loyalty, or authoritarian rule. It always takes the focus off of Christ and His Blood, removes the work that the Holy Spirit would do, and does more to abuse the sheep than lead them."
Anonymous, this comment you made is so good! Thank you for it!
"If NTCC leadership would have humbled themselves and talk to us when we had questions or even begin to now, then I believe that most of these blogs would never have existed."
Matt and I were discussing this recently. The questions and concerns we presented to our leadership when we returned from Guam were answered with the phrases, "When are you going to get saved?" and "The devil is lying to you". Sadly, it was evident there was not going to be any real dialogue with these people.
Up to this point, Matt was waiting to hear where we would go next. We had requested to leave servicemen's work, and were told by RWD that no civilian work had need of a pastor.
Thankfully, there was no place for us to go, or we might still be stuck in the broken NTCC system.
God is good and it's a wonderful life. ;-)
Debbie R, Hi! Could you please explain what type of finances are promised to missionary workers in ntcc, and whether or not the ntcc paid. Also, did you have to finance your travel to and from Guam including for any conferences. Basically, was there any support at all from the ntcc, did it match what they promised, did you have to beg for it, etc. etc.
This is something I think most of us know nothing about. I've read some of Gregory's comments and still don't fully understand. It seems ntcc leaves the missionary workers on their own with no real support?
Thanks,
Don and Ange
Don, absolutely good question! Only a select few have been missionaries and it was made to seem that you had to prove yourself to NTCC leadership prior to going (ex 3 years as a pastor, performed successfully in a work, etc.). Since Greg mentioning about how he was basically told to lie to the South Korean government and how that he never received the promised support, it is very revealing about the character of NTCC leadership.
I remember hearing how that Bradeen wanted money for what was required after he split to go to HOP and RWD decided to pay him just to avoid the confrontation. It was probably because Bradeen, like many that have been in NTCC that long, know where the bodies are buried and could tie NTCC up in criminal and civil litigation for years.
Darwin,
All I want to say about the Creflo Dollar link is...WOW.
Gregory
Debbie said..."Sadly, it was evident there was not going to be any real dialogue with these people...Matt was waiting to hear where we would go next..."
Debbie, So were we. We asked repeatedly (over the course of about 10 months) what they had for us. No answer during phone calls, no answer to letters or emails.
I even kept renewing my license. They finally stopped renewing in 2009 with no real explanation ever given.
We never left (well Deborah did, she resigned her Minister's license), but were just sort of ignored out of existence (other than the phone calls Deborah received from Tanya, and Verna trying to convince her to leave me and come back to Graham).
They even prevented me from Ministering for another organization (I had to get references and documentation from HQ...which they refused to provide, otherwise I would be Pastoring now), after the wait of almost 10 months.
Gregory
Saul was the people's choice. David was God's choice. I never implied that David was the perfect Cristian or the perfect example. He made mistakes, He did things with stupid attached to them. But he was called (by God, no less) a man after his own heart and whether you like it or not, that speaks volumes in and of itself. Was he perfect? No. But if you look at the tenor of his life you see that he was, indeed, a man after God's own heart. OK, So God didn't allow him to build a temple. What's your point? He didn't allow Moses to enter into the promised land either. David was a man after God's own heart, and that's all there is to it.
Points well taken, Sir. I may back-peddle a little on some of the bold statements I made against David. He was and is a great soul, and I probably ought to apologize for speaking negatively about him, for he was a great man of God, and God devoted much time in His word to his life. There are some peculiarities about him, but his passionate prayers and worship in the psalms show his heart that was truly in tune with God's. God inspired him in many ways. Perhaps my favorite one is Psalm 22, because he so clearly prophesies of the crucifixion in such amazing detail. He speaks of the crucifixion during a time when stoning was the method for killing a criminal. Crucifixion had not been invented, yet he said, they pierced my hands and my feet. Even the opening line is verbatim to what Jesus said on the cross. David was a king and a prophet, and I should be careful to reverence a true man of God.
I think it's funny though the NTCC says we should not say anything or warn others about false prophets because David would not "touch" the Lord's anointed (Saul). Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't David talking about physically cutting him with a sword? and so he only cut his garment?
I just looked the phrase up. It is used twice in reference to the nation of Israel and how God rebuked other nations telling them not to touch his anointed and his prophets.
David said he would not kill Saul because he was the Lord's anointed. Yet he rebuked Saul to his face for pursuiting him. He didn't say, I will not touch Saul, neither will I tell him what he has done wrong, because he is the Lord's anointed. HE WOULDN'T KILL HIM!
GS or DS said:
"Debbie, So were we. We asked repeatedly (over the course of about 10 months) what they had for us. No answer during phone calls, no answer to letters or emails."
DnA said:
Your services were no longer appreciated or required so you were ignored and "left to your own devices" which is actually better than whatever it was that they could have possibly had in store for you. I know many don't look at this in the same light but what you are doing with your blogs and on this one is ministering to cult members and survivors. It is a far greater work than anything we have done in the ntcc.
While we were in the borg, we all were used and we worked for the advantage of a few select individuals. We were used as enablers for a destructive gospel. While there was some good in what many have done inside the ntcc, the direction and the influence over the long haul was very damaging to many.
You, (the Shunks and the Reeds) outlived your usefulness. I don't say this lightly. When people begin to see the wrong inside the ntcc and try to fix it or question it or make it a better place, they become a threat to the establishment. The powers that be are cement heads. They are thoroughly mixed and permanently set. You can't change their minds or threaten their empire. They receive no correction. ZERO.
We spent our time leading people to Christ for what? So that a controlling cult could pervert the gospel of Christ by placing Old Testament style laws and ordinances in their lives to make people productive for their leaders own greedy purposes. We were manipulated to produce two kinds of fruit. Cash and souls. Souls were only of use if they would get saved and give. It always has been about the dollar. PERIOD. If you had nothing to give you were of no use.
What you are doing now is far more productive. You are shining light into a dark world. People that are trapped are finding there way to freedom. When somebody leaves the ntcc and is freed from the chains of legalistic servitude they find true freedom and begin to experience true love and mercy. They reverse their own critical stereo types of everyone else and can finally be used of God the way He sees fit.
Our hope and ultimate goal for doing what we do is that people will realize that they can have salvation and experience a deeper walk in God outside of the ntcc. This has been the case for us. We are not as polished as many but we are dedicated to exposing the ntcc. We do not believe that they are ignorant of the things they do. You can only play the ignorant card for so long. Rwd, Mck and many others others at the top are fully aware of their corrupt intentions. They exist to keep their members blindly following a system that is in place for the sole purpose of heaping up riches and giving them power over their followers. They are textbook cult leaders and they will keep you in blindness until you are no longer useful to them.
DnA
DnA,
Good points. The main problem is they prevented us (for the time being) from Pastoring in another organization. Pure evil.
Gregory
Hi Brother Jeff! I noticed an oddity on your recent visitors map. Someone was looking on your blog from off the southern coast of AFRICA! Wonder who that was LOL!!
I am also looking at this blog from an undisclosed location close to Afghanistan, I am sure you can pin point where it is!
God Bless you and everyone!
Bro Johnson
DS or GS said, "The main problem is they prevented us (for the time being) from Pastoring in another organization. Pure evil."
Some within the fence would prefer to be able to tell the story that so and so who left ntcc was found face down in a gutter, rather than have you leave and live as a Christian or even worse, be found preaching the gospel outside of their organization. Silly rabbit, how could I forget those who leave ntcc can't be living for God anyhow and surely aren't preachers.
Greg, the NTCC Organizational office is basically told to stall with any request for transcripts for their BS, references for any positions you held in NTCC, and any verification of being a missionary or receiving any payments from NTCC. The only real reason for this is to try to wait out someone who appears to be leaving NTCC or to avoid scrutiny of someone's employers or if someone is applying for government benefits. The lack of transparency within NTCC is appalling and if you really knew the extent of it you would be shocked.
DS or GS said, "DS or GS said, "The main problem is they prevented us (for the time being) from Pastoring in another organization. Pure evil."
Wasn't it your previous divorce/remarriage, that prevented you from Pastoring in another organization?? And if so whose fault would that be?
GS and DS,
Watch your back - the "character ninjas" are out in force ;)
Wasn't it your previous divorce/remarriage, that prevented you from Pastoring in another organization?? And if so whose fault would that be?
so ntcc didnt send the paperwork to GS/DS because of remarriage? no! the org is so selfish they would rather see other people miss out on the gospel.
I'm waiting in anticipation for either "GS or "DS" to open up a can of total whup A55 on anonymous.
anonymous asked DS or GS ''Wasn't it your previous divorce/remarriage, that prevented you from Pastoring in another organization?? And if so whose fault would that be?
Don and Ange say,
anonymous is the pot calling the kettle black. anonymous really should be asking rodger wilson davis and his second wife (after divorce and remarriage) verna mae davis : "Wasn't it your previous divorce/remarriage, that prevented you from Pastoring in another organization?? And if so whose fault would that be?"
davis also committed adultery; so those churches wanted nothing to do with him. That's when davis decided to have a 'vision' and declare himself a super apostle. davis became an independent preacher so he could run the show himself and not be accountable to anyone, as it is this day. But he will have to give account one day.
Don and Ange
anonymous *A* said to DS or GS:
"Wasn't it your previous divorce/remarriage, that prevented you from Pastoring in another organization?? And if so whose fault would that be?"
Then Anonymous *B* said,
"so ntcc didnt send the paperwork to GS/DS because of remarriage? no! the org is so selfish they would rather see other people miss out on the gospel."
Don and Ange say,
The ntcc is not going into the kingdom of heaven so they will not suffer (allow) others to enter either....
HYPOCRITES
Anonymous wrote..."Wasn't it your previous divorce/remarriage, that prevented you from Pastoring in another organization?? And if so whose fault would that be?"
Gregory wrote..."No." (Is this what is being said...interesting, tell us more. When Rev. Kekel 'shared' about Deborah and I, everyone learned a lot more about the leaderships character, and we all got a good laugh out of it. I have yet to even respond to all that he wrote, but we did ensure it got the widest dissemination possible, and we archived it on Deborah's Blog so even more people could continue to read it.)
Next question (please reveal more 'dirt' about us, like I said...Rev. Kekel tried that).
Gregory
Anonymous,
Above, I should have wrote "next question please," so it is very clear I want you to grill me some more (this goes for everyone, I don't mind "knocking you on the head").
Gregory
I remember when Kekel told me twice in one conversation that Deborah Shunk better hope that someone doesn't go digging around in HER trashcan, because the Shunks started a blog to expose them.
What he said didn't phase me. If Kekel has any legitimate dirt on the Shunks, which his stupid blogs shows that he doesn't, I wouldn't care anyways. I didn't waste my life following the Shunks making the Shunks rich while so many people were abused and used and kept down by them. The dirt that is on Kekel and Davis isn't even the issue to me. What is the issue to me with them is the lack of compassion and love that I see in their lives. Quit acting like a bunch of politicians, ntccers. You're just trying to distract us from the REAL issues.
Your stupid comments don't even deserve a response from Greg or Deborah. Go stick your head in the sand!
Since the ntcc clintonites are out again trying to say, "watch the birdie!" and get our eyes off the real issues, I thought I would just try to remind the ntccers what the real issues are:
To sum things up, the little people in this church give and give out of their substance to keep the churches afloat that they labor in (plus send a good portion of the money they raise in their local churches to the headquarters because it is required that they do that). They get little financial help (if any) from HQ's (most likely none), and the pastors of the local churches and ministers have to send their tithes to the HQ's. The founder lives in 2 mansions, accepts expensive gifts from people who already pay tithes to the HQ's, and he does not believe in using any of the money brought in from tithes and offerings to help the poor (in or out of the church). There are many other issues, but that is just a little bit of a summary of a few of them.
Or you could just say the issue is abuse of power in NTCC among the upper echelons. We don't care if someone sinned while abused in the NTCC. They are lucky we ALL didn't snap and end up in a loony bin! Being told to only marry within the org, then they soul-win twice as many (probably more like 10 times more) men than women. What is that? some sort of sick and twisted joke? Then you have to beg some old man with big bushy eyebrows to talk to one of the ladies. Where else has that been practiced in the history of the true orthodox Christian church?
I feel sorry for the 'men' who continue on as Davis' little mice under his feet. And if he wants to humiliate you in front of your wife, you just smile and laugh sheepishly while your wife is supposed to respect you as a real man now. Have fun, guys!
As far as dirt, and digging up dirt on someone else, I'm shocked that even Mike would stoop to that level. Doing the kind of work that I do, I know for a fact that 99.9% of us have "skeletons in the closet". That's not a problem for me. I have them as well. I can forgive people who have wronged me over the years, as I am entreated by Christ to do the same. Perhaps the word should be commanded instead of entreated. At any rate, I'll go a step further and say that we should forgive even the people who have wronged us who don't think they have, and would seek to injure us further if they could. At any rate, I guess my main point is that I can handle, or deal with someone who is at least somewhat transparent better than I can someone who tries to give the optical illusion that they have somehow arrived at a point in their life where they can say that they "Can't remember the last time they sinned" When I was having my conversation with Mike K. (with Tanya in tow) That was one of the things I touched on saying that in order to arrive at that conclusion in your life you have to redefine sin in order to create this illusion. I will say, quite candidly, That I have ZERO TOLERANCE for people who try to create an illusion of a sinless life and who put on all of these facades and create this and then take it a step further and will talk about your problems, hangups, as well as your sins but they have all kinds of things in the past that they are hiding. In many cases, some of the things that these people have done would make people blush with embarrassment. People who do these kinds of things would do well if they were more transparent. They have the answer to everyone else's life, But not their own.
Jeff, call us ASAP.
DnA
Mark G. you make a very good point. It's been my experience in the ntcc that those who allow the least amount of tolerance for sin are the ones that are hiding the most sin. It's easy to look at those in the Xer community and say, "See, they are a bunch of sinners", this one wears pants and this one wears make-up, when inside they are full of dead men's bones.
Let's take a closer look at the ntcc and see if they aren't throwing rocks from a glass house.
The ntcc despises the poor in direct conflict with James 2:6. "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you and draw you before the judgement seats?" They only want tithe paying Pharisee types to attend their services.
The ntcc lies to people. They tell them that if they emulate their leaders that they too will have the same blessings. Listen carefully here because we can write a whole book about this subject. They lie about their credentials. They lie about their credibility. They lie about those who have left. They lie about those in their own churches that question them. I could write a book entitled, "Lies, More Lies and ntcc Doctrine". They twist scriptures by adding to and taking away from God's word. This is a huge lie and it is done for the personal gain of a few families. Rev. 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." I'm not judging them the bible is, (Where have we heard that before). Notice the part that says, "ALL liars" A double L ALL liars. I can not say that I've never told a lie but when you get behind the pulpit and say that you can't remember the last time you sinned, you fall into that category of "ALL liars". You probably don't have to go that far back to remember the last time either. Either that or it happens so frequently that you can't remember which specific sin you committed or lie you last told.
We don't even have to go into the alleged adultery and sexual impropriety that many have reported to find sin at the doorsteps of the ntcc. They have dealt with people in cruelty and they have trampled our brethren under their feet. They continue to do this without any remorse or accountability. Every time someone leaves they leave with a story of how unmercifully they were treated by those that are filled with hatred and animosity for them. Nowhere in the bible do we find justification for the type of behavior that is displayed by the ntcc leadership. We have to go to other cults to find this kind of behavior.
DnA
what ntcc does in their sly slick ways
http://youtu.be/udomqgvsHB4
How dare you throw stones at this church? I don't even have to go there to say this!! So you've had a bad experience. What? That means you create a blog that tears down that church orginazation. Oh, that sounds Christian-like. Wow, I don't even know why I'm wasting my time posting this.. Probably because so far I've seen absolutely no one do it!! Stop whining about how terrible your life was then and GET A LIFE!! Stop living in the past.
Pray!! Read your Bible!! Forgive and forget!! Don't try justifying your actions or try telling me that what you're doing is right. I know for a fact that Jesus is NOT smiling down on this. I'm even SERIOUSLY questioning whether anyone on here is a true Christian. Jesus was KILLED and he still loved those who killed his enemies. Don't try telling me that you love your enemies, yes I count NTCC as your enemy since you are making these comments about them.
And don't give me "This site is to warn others about the cruelty of NTCC."
Let them find out themselves. And if you are so worried about others then quit posting this and get out and show them some Christian love!! Invite them to church!! Pray for them!! This site is filled with junk from people who have been completely blinded by their emotions and the devil. And I know that me saying this will cause some people to think that I am judging them.. It's natural to think that is it not? But I am NOT judging you!! I'm trying to get you to open your eyes!! Wake up!! What you are doing.. What this site represents.. It's WRONG!! Nobody with the love of Christ in them would post this!!
I absolutely do NOT regret saying this, but I DON'T agree with your views. Maybe I'm crazy.. But from what I've heard Jesus came to save not condemn.. You guys are doing a pretty good job on condemning the NTCC members.. I am absolutely DISGUSTED with all of this.. Get off of your high horses and realize that you are WRONG to be doing this!
anonymous said and Don and Ange say
How dare you throw stones at this church? It is not a church. It is a cult. We are exposing their false doctrines just as the apostles and Jesus exposed the lies and hypocrisy of the false teachers. (They didn't have internet back then, so instead their 'blog' [epistles and gospel] was published as a bible. Try reading it and see what we mean.)
I don't even have to go there to say this!! Tsk, tsk, tsk... The bible says it is folly and shame to answer before hearing a matter: [He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him.] Folly and shame to judge and condemn when you admit you don't know what you're talking about.
So you've had a bad experience. Did Jesus have a bad experience with the hypocrites? Did the Apostle Paul when he named people who fought the gospel? Were the Apostles and Christ wrong to teach the true gospel and expose false doctrines? No. Their words comprise much of the Bible, teaching us to be fruit inspectors and to warn others when the fruit of some like the ntcc is rotten [as previously noted by Kris Moore].
What? That means you create a blog that tears down that church orginazation. As stated before, the ntcc is not a church, but a cult. The 'church' is not meant to be an 'organization'. Syndicated crime like the mafia, that is an 'organization'. The 'church' is the body of those who believe that Christ's work on the cross is finished; and that, as such, they are saved by His grace through faith. This is the gift of God. It's not works. Lest any man should boast. People who boast about a 'church organization' really don't get it about the grace of God and His redemptive work of love.
more to come...
Don and Ange
anonymous said, Don and Ange say,
Oh, that sounds Christian-like. Yes, anonymous, if you read Matthew 23 you will see just how Christ-like it is.
Wow, I don't even know why I'm wasting my time posting this.. We don't know why you are wasting your time. You haven't made a valid point yet. The more you try, the more your arguments will be exposed for what they are; and how they lack substance.
Probably because so far I've seen absolutely no one do it!! Hmmn. More proof that you don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps you should read more before you condemn things you admit you don't know anything about. Or be known for your folly and shame.
more to come
Don and Ange
anonymous said, Don and Ange say,
Stop whining about how terrible your life was then and GET A LIFE!! We are warning people how terrible their life will be in ntcc. anon, what is your life when you blog at 3:43 in the morning about something you already admitted you don't know anything about?
Stop living in the past. People who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. We want others to avoid the cult tactics and abuses rampant in the ntcc. So we analyze what ntcc does and share that with others so they can avoid the cult.
Pray!! Read your Bible!! Forgive and forget!! Pretty good advice, when taken in context. Jesus prayed. We pray. Jesus read the scripture. We read the scripture. Jesus forgives and forgets [something ntcc, especially rodger wilson davis, grant kekel's grandpa, does not do. davis boasts, "I may forgive; but I never forget!" Not too Christ like of davis, is it?] Forgiving and forgetting their sin does not mean allowing them to abuse others. A woman beaten by her husband can leave him, forgive him, and forget the sin. But she will warn others not to get trapped and beaten as she got trapped and beaten.
It's the decent thing to do. Wouldn't you want someone to warn you?
more to come
Don and Ange
anonymous said, Don and Ange say,
Don't try justifying your actions or try telling me that what you're doing is right. It is right to warn others of the ntcc hypocrisy.
I know for a fact that Jesus is NOT smiling down on this. Really? Did you read that in the book of Hezekiah?
I'm even SERIOUSLY questioning whether anyone on here is a true Christian. Fear not, anonymouse, We know we are Christians based on the blood of Jesus, not your approval.
more to come
Don and Ange
anonymouse said, Don and Ange say,
Jesus was KILLED and he still loved those who killed his enemies. Uhhh, we're gonna give you the benefit of doubt here and say we think you meant Jesus loved those who killed Him and loved His enemies. True. Loving someone does not mean allowing them to continue in sin without warning them and others about what is really going on. Jesus loved the hypocrites; but warned them and others of the hypocrisy. Jesus pronounced woe unto them. Then He died on the cross for them. But they, like you, were self-righteous. They refused to repent. So when they died, God had no choice but to judge them. They are in hell today. Will you go there? Will you let Jesus forgive you? Or will you say your works can save you?
Don't try telling me that you love your enemies, yes I count NTCC as your enemy since you are making these comments about them. Are you saying this of yourself? Or did someone teach you these things? You really sound so much like the ntcc; it is sad.
Jesus loved His enemies.
When they refused to repent He sent them to hell.
Don't be so quick to condemn without knowledge. Shame and folly.
Jesus warned not to judge by appearances; but to judge righteous judgment.
more to come
Don and Ange
And now life beckons. We leave you with the rest of anonymouse's self-righteous tongue lashings. Feel free to help anon see the error and folly of the ntcc and of condemning while trying to say show the love of Christ yada yada yada. So much ntcc jargon. It's really old. They have run out of arguments. You just can not argue with the truth and expect to win. So they pack up their Mercedes and go home. Same old same old.
Jeff, please call. Thanks. DnA
looks like grant has a new girlfriend
GET A LIFE!!
GET A NAME!
Hello everyone, I'm back. Been on vacation to the Bahamas, St. Thomas and St. Martin. Absolutely breath taking scenery. My family had a blast. My daughter said, "It was the best vacation of my life"! My wife said, "That was the best vacation ever"! My little boy and I road a jet ski on the ocean about 1/3 the way around St. Thomas and we had a blast. Of course we paid for our own trip. We don't fly to Hawaii like the NTCC leadership, acting like our agenda is a revival when the true purpose is a vacation and so Tanya can spend more of everyone elses money on her many shopping sprees.
I'll start a new thread when I get to it. I haven't been on the internet one time for the last week. The NTCC still sucks, they still abuse people, they still use people, they still ruin peoples lives. Nothing new however it's still important information for people to know. Leave the NTCC and get your life back. I'm a living testimony. My lawn needs to be mowed and I don't have a bunch of puppets who don't mind being used by the Davis' and Kekel's to do it for me. I wouldn't let them anyway; I'm not like that. Using my fellow man for personal gain and pleasure isn't my cup of tea. The Kekel's SUCK.
Jeff
Don, I'll call you as soon as things slow down here. Washing cloths, unpacking, etc. This blog ain't going anywhere but I realized on this trip that I need to spend a whole lot less time with it.
I still want to continue with the puzzle, but just as a smaller piece.
Y'all take care and lets keep getting the word out.
Jeff
If anyone wants to start a new thread, just email me the headline post to:
thebigserge@gmail.com
Jeff
"How dare you throw stones at this church? I don't even have to go there to say this!! So you've had a bad experience. What? That means you create a blog that tears down that church orginazation. Oh, that sounds Christian-like. Wow, I don't even know why I'm wasting my time posting this"..
Ha! Sounds like a Reverand Davis wannabe but never can be because he has such a small pee pee!
Bro Johnson
Hey Jeff,
Sounds like you had a great time. Paying all that tithe to the ntcc must have finally paid off. The blessings are finally starting to roll in. Wait a second.....rewind. Did I say that? What I meant to say is how can this be? When you leave the ntcc, you are supposed to be cursed and the only vacation you can afford to take is a trip to the Krispy Kreme donut factory in your town to see how donuts are made.
I'm glad you had a great time. If you had done this while in the ntcc, you would have been rebuked on so many different levels it isn't funny. I can hear it now. How can you take a vacation while souls are dying and going to hell? How can you spend your money like that when there are needs in the church. You can't be right with God and miss a weeks worth of Church Services. You went to the beach to lust after all those naked women. You might has well have signed your paycheck over to the devil. I'm happy for you Bro. I hope others see you enjoying your life and decide that they no longer want some stuffy old tight-wad geezer to control everything they do in this life.
I think it's really important to get out and enjoy things a bit. These are experiences that your kids will share with you and your wife for the rest of their lives. It's priceless and no ntcc preacher can take that away from you. They can rant and rave all they want but they just prolonging their own agony. Good for you my Friend.
DnA
dont spam them with petty grievances, but here is a christian group that investigates religious fraud, etc.
http://www.trinityfi.org/
"Pray!! Read your Bible!! Forgive and forget!! Don't try justifying your actions or try telling me that what you're doing is right. I know for a fact that Jesus is NOT smiling down on this. I'm even SERIOUSLY questioning whether anyone on here is a true Christian".
Look, YOUR the one who is disgruntled, not me. Get off your Viagra high horse and tone it down a bit dude.
Forgive and Forget? You dont even want to go there. If your wife miscarried due to excessive soul winning would YOU FORGET? I think not. I have 3 beautiful children here on earth and 1 beautiful son named JOSHUA up in heaven due to YOUR PATHETIC HOLIER THAN THOU ORGANIZATION!!!!!
As Reverand Davis used to say, "Put that in your Pipe and Smoke it!!"
Enough said.
Bro Johnson
The video on that link is pretty interesting. It says the IRS has investigated 6 pastors who live luxury lifestyles. 2 of them have jets. I remember Pastor Davis telling me that he used to have his own plane. Kenneth Copeland reminds me of Davis the way he talks to the reporter in the video.
Anonymous said...
I'm even SERIOUSLY questioning whether anyone on here is a true Christian".
Jeff said...
The good news is, your opinion doesn't matter here and you certainly aren't in any position to judge who is a Christian and who is not. Neither is any of the rest of the NTCC leadership. Double standard hypocrites don't qualify as legitimate judges. You need to question whether or not "you" are a Christian? According to Biblical standards you are more like a Pharisee, at least that is who you remind me of.
Jeff
"I remember Pastor Davis telling me that he used to have his own plane."
He was taking flying lessons when I was in BS, and was fond of telling pilot war stories from the pulpit and using flying as a spiritual analogy for everything. He did have his own plane then. Maybe he has a few now, who knows?
Pastor Davis says he has a pilots license. Indeed he does have a Pilots license. But unless he has updated the license it is, and was at one time expired. It is for a single engine plane ONLY.
After his PHD escapade, I don't trust much of anything that he says, and I trust even less of what he has to say if he says "God told me this", or "God told me that".
Ain't that the truth. God telling him something means he told himself. I wonder if God told him to tell everyone where to find the door?
Anymore on Barnes? Last I heard Ivory left with him. I wonder if he took his whole church with him? If he did, life will be hard on the new pastor. Everyone knows each other in Mississippi and they've been there for a long time. Good luck soul winning around that area. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they wind up selling that building.
Jeff
RW did say he let his license expire. But he also told us war stories of learning to fly twin engine aircraft. Maybe he never got the license for that, though. I think Phil Kinson told me he took him up once.
I was thinking about the recent spate of business activity which has come to light--Gesang's lizard and contracting companies, Kekel Enterprises, Willard Properties, Kinson selling mattresses, Johnson selling insurance--and it made me think the doctrine RW used to preach: "The sorriest preacher in the world is one who goes in business for himself." He hammered into us that we were to get a JOB--not a "position," or a career, not our own gig, but a wage slave JOB that produced a regular paycheck. Never mind that he filled our heads with all this positive thinking entrepreneurial claptrap; we were forbidden from applying those principles when it came to advancing ourselves financially and professionally. There was no doubt: a preacher trying to conduct any business (other than the soul-trapping business) was a failure by definition. Apparently all that has changed now, and a new era of guilt-free mammon chasing has dawned.
Maybe they figure that with fewer people now, they need bigger tithe payments.
I was thinking about the recent spate of business activity which has come to light--Gesang's lizard and contracting companies, Kekel Enterprises, Willard Properties, Kinson selling mattresses, Johnson selling insurance--and it made me think the doctrine RW used to preach: "The sorriest preacher in the world is one who goes in business for himself." He hammered into us that we were to get a JOB--not a "position," or a career, not our own gig, but a wage slave JOB that produced a regular paycheck. Never mind that he filled our heads with all this positive thinking entrepreneurial claptrap; we were forbidden from applying those principles when it came to advancing ourselves financially and professionally. There was no doubt: a preacher trying to conduct any business (other than the soul-trapping business) was a failure by definition. Apparently all that has changed now, and a new era of guilt-free mammon chasing has dawned.
Maybe they figure that with fewer people now, they need bigger tithe payments.
Vic said,
"I was thinking about the recent spate of business activity which has come to light--Gesang's lizard and contracting companies, Kekel Enterprises, Willard Properties, Kinson selling mattresses, Johnson selling insurance"
coverups for church kick-backs.
Hey guys,
I have been asked to get some info on Kekel's business by a person who is still in and becoming a bit skeptical...anyone know anything about "Kekel Enterprises" or Willard Realty? any info on any of these guys side jobs would be very helpful.
Thanks in advance!!!!
from- "a regular on here"
Here is the bottom line and it ain't no mystery. Davis and Kekel are businessmen. Save money you get from the church and invest it and live off the profits. Either buy or build houses and sell or rent them. It is just that simple. That is what Kekel and Davis are all about. The NTCC is just a front.
When I say that what I mean is their main focus isn't saving souls but accumulating real estate. Investing in real estate in itself isn't a problem but I'm no longer going to fund their endeavors. I have my own family to take care of. Serving God isn't about giving your money to someone so they can invest it with real estate while their son and grandson attends a secular catholic college.
That is just foolish to give your money away for such endeavors. You are not giving your money to "GAWDS program", you are giving your money away to "Kekel's and Davis' program".
You NTCC guys are blind as a bat. Many of us left the NTCC with a whole lot less information than this. I guess some people just like to give their money away to rich people. I'm not the one.
Jeff
Tell him or her to call and ask Kekel. Kekel shouldn't have a problem providing information about his business ventures. Hey, once again, there is nothing wrong with Kekel's business ventures. I'm just not going to be the one to fund them and anyone else would be crazy if they did. You are not giving as unto the Lord. You are being foolish. God does not expect us to be foolish.
The NTCCs explanation for tithing is completely wrong and anyone with an open mind could figure it out if they would just read the Bible. Every example of giving found in the New Testament was directed toward the needy. PERIOD. It was never directed toward some rich businessman so he could become even richer.
Whatever. I'm tired. Do what you want with your money. I'm taking care of my family not Kekel's.
Jeff
"I guess some people just like to give their money away to rich people. I'm not the one".
Jeff
Bro Jeff, if people are throwing their hard earned money away to the program of GAWD, excuse me please I am going to jump ahead in line. I'll take a few Thousand!
Hooah!
Bro Johnson
By the Way,
How can Reverend Johnson sell Insurance?
Which version is he selling? NIV? HIV? XYZ?
I thought getting to Heaven was free with no strings attached, you accept Jesus who is your ULTIMATE Insurance Policy.
His plan pays ETERNAL dividends AND you get a new body and a robe, NOT a choir robe. AND you do not need an Internet Site, because you will already be "On Site".
You won't have to worry about working as a Janitor at age 60 when your husband dies because you will be eternally young and never die (this should be a boon to Viagra stock)
Nor do you need a TORCH to light the way, because the Everlasting One, the Prince of Peace, the King of Glory's radiant Light will expose all.
You don't have to worry, Heaven is copywrited by God but He allows you free use and access with no strings attached.
Aint nothing on earth can beat that!
In Heaven we are praising Jesus, not singing Jingle Bells to folks who could care less at the Mall.
Verily, verily I say until thee, it will be easier for Lil' Wayne to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven than a NTCC Preacher or follower.
Bro Johnson
ANON,
you so famously stated
"GS and DS,
Watch your back - the "character ninjas" are out in force ;)"
Be carefull! "Watch your back" can be misinterpreted as a threat on one's life, depending on one's perspective.
Bo Johnson
Let me start by saying that I am not in NTCC anymore. I do, however, have some answers to these questions.
Q. Who are you more afraid of asking a question; the Lord Jesus or Pastor Davis or Rev. Kekel?
(Be Honest!)
A. Why should we be afraid to ask any of these a question? Fear comes from within and if we are afraid, we need to ask ourselves... Why?
Q. Then ask youreself the question; should it be that way?
A. Absolutely not! Let me level with all of you. There was a time when I was afraid to ask questions until the Lord brought me to the point where I understood that it was because of my own pride. I didn't want to find out I was wrong. My primary objective and desire was acceptance. Let me tell you, that is no way to live.
Q. Another question to ask; Am I working and sacrificing for God or is it really because I don't want to be considered a failure by NTCC leaders?
A. Here is another interesting question because if we are working and sacrificing, it could be a good thing and it could be a bad thing. It really depends on motive. I think within this question we see the motive of a lot of people. It is borne out of an idolization of acceptance in the life of the individual because of pride. Again, we must look within to understand the answer to this question and even to understand why this question is even being asked. I know, I've been there myself.
Q. Is my sacrifice a freewill offering to God or is it because I have heard others rebuked during conferences for loving a house, job, or family more than I love God or that they are lazy?
A. The answer to this question can be found by being seriously intellectually honest with yourself and considering the same things I brought up in answer to the last question.
Q. When I stand before God is he going to say how many people did I invite to church or is he going to say did I love him and my neighbor?
A. Or will He consider my relationship with Jesus as it is forged out of knowing that without Him I am nothing and that to devote all of my time, effort and energy into "making something happen for God" is just as damning to the soul as not doing anything for Him at all. The answer does not lie in doing or not doing, rather, it is about abiding in Christ and allowing His love and passion to flow in all we do.
Q. Am I saved by my works or am I really saved by grace?
A. A valid question to ask. It doesn't matter what denomination you are in, this seems to be a sticking point. We focus so much on works that we start to think they are a part of our salvation. Christ did the work on Calvary. This work paid for our sins. The most important thing for a Christian to remember is that we work out of, or as a result of salvation, not for our salvation.
Q. The Bible said for us to give hoping nothing in return. Why is it that when you soul win you think of what can these people do for my church; can they pay tithe, can they become soul winners? Why are you not taught to look at each individual as a soul that may die and go to hell if they don't accept Christ?
A. This question is a long term end result of the thinking that led to the other questions. It is borne out of the desire for acceptance in the organization and from its leaders. You may be surprised that this kind of question may be asked in many modern denominations today and you would get the same answer. We see the results of ministers trying to become "successful" all over the church world as churches try all kinds of methods for success ranging from deep oppression of their members to a happy go lucky, live and let live, anything goes, type of church environment. It keeps coming back down to motive. What was our purpose in becoming ministers? Before we blame anyone else, we must first look within ourselves and consider our part in it.
"To thine own self be true."
Hello!
My name is Anders and I found your blog today.
You wrote: “each individual as a soul that may die and go to hell if they don't accept Christ?”
I would like to comment about salvation and forgiveness in order to be helpful!! The comment is lengthy in order to make it understandable.
(To differentiate,)
This is what the Jewish Messiah must have taught about ‘salvation’ - if he was a legitimate prophet according to Deuteronomy 13:1-6:
As stipulated in Dt. 6:4-9,11:13-21 one is required to keep all of the directives of Torâh′ to one’s utmost—viz., “with all one’s heart, psyche and might [lit. "very"]“—”for the purpose of extending your days and the days of your children… like the days of the heavens above the earth” (i.e., eternal life). According to the Hebrew Bible, Ezekiel chapter 18 et.al, the Creator confer His atonement in His loving kindness to those and only those turning away from their Torah [Books of Moses]-transgressions and (re)turning to non-selectively observance of the commandments in the books of Moses. Everyone has transgressed the commandments in the books of Moses and it is possible to obtain forgiveness from the Creator in His loving kindness when living in the above way. The Creator has promised this in His Bible – which is in Hebrew – and He doesn’t lie.
Thus, the way of ‘salvation’ in NT, referred to in your post, contradicts the books of Moses and what the Jewish first century Messiah called Y’hoshua taught. I am a former Christian and understand that after having studied Torah in Hebrew according to etymology. The Creator wants to forgive, but ONLY as long as we do our best to keep His Will. “Accepting Christ” is not a commandment of Torah and is prohibited in Torah.
Doing your utmost to follow the directives of Torah - the books of Moses - will lead you into an immensely meaningful relationship with the Creator. I have been doing this for more than four years and it has led me into a great relationship with the Creator.
All the best!
Anders Branderud
Great, I'm happy for you. Interesting post. We don't get many like this. Of course I'm sure you know that the majority here follow Christianity i.e. Christ. Having said that you are welcome to post here any time you would like. We do want to avoid debates about Christianity vs Judaism. Neither side would be convinced so there would be little point. This particular blog was designed to highlight a cult that operates in the United States called the New Testament Christian Church. Two of the main objectives of this cult is to break up marriages and to prevent many people who really do love each other from ever getting married. I do however wish you the best and thanks again for posting.
Chief
That was enough super spiritual jargon.
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