That is exactly what's happened to you if you've bought off on the most recent statement that Mr. Kekel typed on his blog concerning the reason's that "fellowship meetings" were essentially stopped.
First point: Mr Kekel said that fellowship meetings need to be quote "supervised" by an overseer. So a "pastor" can start a church from scratch, travel all over the world, spend time in the military, supposedly be "called and chosen" by God (according to RWD) to lead souls to a place of eternal peace, and he can't be trusted to meet with others who hold like qualifications to have church without quote "supervision"? You are kidding right? Especially after they did it for decades?
Second point: Mr Kekel said that the primary reason that fellowship meetings were stopped was to "ease the financial burden on the churches". Of course this is after he said that pastors needed to be supervised but I've already left that point. Financial burden? I spent years in the NTCC and fellowship meetings never caused me an additional financial burden? In fact they saved me money. Let me make one thing perfectly clear. If there hadn't been fellowship meetings, I would have spend money on gas driving all over creation that Saturday for a trip to the church in the morning, soul winning, money on food during the at least 6 hour period while we were out, a trip to the determined location where we'd turn in our stupid reports, back home if we even had time and if not, more money spent on another meal, picking up people for church, putting money in the offering, taking people back home and then finally, a trip back to my house. You are kidding right Kekel? I don't care if the fellowship meeting was four hours away. It didn't cost me any more money to go there then it did to stay right were I was at? As far as the actual "church" was concerned, if a preacher loosing the offering money which essentially amounted to the chump change given by the "Saturday's" usual small crowd hurt his wallet, then your system has made him too broke in the first place. I don't buy it Kekel because what you've written makes no sense at all, and I haven't lost my ability or will to think with my brain which you didn't successfully steal from me even though you certainly tried hard enough. That explanation is lame and insulting. If those preachers are that broke, the problem isn't fellowship meetings but rather them needing to get a better job with more hours or get a job period! Oh, but once again it's not about the church members financial stability but about them staying in their own town every Saturday while spending every dime of their own money that the church can suck out of them so the "Church" isn't financially affected!!!!
Third Point: Kekel wrote... "But for some people (referring to the ministers), everything is a burden." Oh really? Boy isn't that an insult!!! These are supposedly Gods elite spokesman who RWD placed according to God's direction in their respective positions and for some of them, "everything is a burden"? Everything is a problem for them, right Kekel? They are complainers, whiners, never happy, right Kekel? So you feel that way but you actually keep these men in positions as pastors and I'm supposed to be stupid enough to believe they are qualified to lead me to heaven? Really?! Are they supposed to be stupid enough to let a spoiled brat like you who has never had to struggle for a dime refer to them like that? That is easy for you to say you pathetic piece of trash. Everything has been handed to you on a platter so you don't know what it's like to have a quote, "burden". Your church was handed to you, your geographical stability was handed to you, all the tithe money was handed to you, an exemption of all the rules that applied to other NTCC children was handed to you. You don't know what a burden is or what it's like to struggle Mr Kekel, so therefor you can even relate to their "burdens". You better believe everything is a burden when you encourage them not to work, while pioneering a church with a wife and kids under toe, while at the same time they are sending half the money that comes into their church up to Graham to fund your son's $80,000 high school education and secular Catholic college. That would be a burden for me also!!! Makes me sick.
Forth point: Kekel said a few preachers strove over who was leading service, whose wife would sing and who would preach. So you stopped a practice that's existed for decades because of a "few" preachers conduct? Sounds like a knee jerk mass punishment to me. Frankly I witnessed some of the same but my question is, what makes you, Mr. Kekel, qualified to judge those other pastors? Kekel's spoiled wife was handed every microphone that ever came anywhere near her on a platter and so was Kekel, even though he doesn't preach nearly as effectively as many others I've heard. And not only that, but if that is the way Kekel and RWD feels about so many NTCC pastors, why in the world would they even leave them in church leadership positions? Because it ain't about souls if you guys and your wives are that petty and they know it. It's about the expansion of their real-estate empire at whatever cost. How on Gods green earth is a pastor supposed to lead souls to heaven if those are the things he's worried about. Kekel dogged you guys out, plain and simple and don't say, "none of that applies to me" because it certainly was directed at a whole lot more than just one, or they wouldn't have canceled fellowship meetings altogether unless there is "SUPERVISION".
Fifth point: The truth of the matter is, I don't believe any of the reasons he gave are the "MAIN" reason they stopped fellowship meetings without the presents of "supervision". Too many people are leaving the NTCC and they don't want you guys talking in the absence of supervision, plain and simple. It's called censorship or information control; cult 101. They know that when you guys are allowed to talk freely, in the absence of supervision, you'll learn how crooked they are and wind up leaving the NTCC just like MDR, Barnes, Granger, Scrivins and all the rest. If so many of you guys are as ate-up as Kekel suggested, why in the world do they even keep you or your associates as pastors? Do you actually believe that the kind of conduct that Kekel described is going to get people to heaven? If you do, you are one seriously mislead, blind leading the blind individual, and that is why I left the NTCC.
Chief
218 comments:
1 – 200 of 218 Newer› Newest»Jeff said, "Too many people are leaving the NTCC and they don't want you guys talking in the absence of supervision, plain and simple."
Bingo! Freedom to talk in small groups fosters independent thinking and controlling factions can't allow that. If people are communicating with one another, you can't control them. Once people start thinking for themselves, all control is lost. Unfortunately, in ntcc it's not all about Jesus, but control, plain and simple. They're using Jesus just like they use everybody else.
For lay people like myself, what is a fellowship meeting?, as a former member we know nothing of what they are and of course would never have been able to go to one, the only fellowship meetings I would hear about was told to us over the pulpit and they where after a
Wednesday bible study in Graham, they where pretty rare too. So what is a fellowship meeting? I have only understood bits and pieces of what they are from Jeff's comment. Please explain.
"They're using Jesus just like they use everybody else."
There was a time when I was going to Laughlin as well as Las Vegas about once a month. We never really went there to gamble, or at least that wasn't our main focus. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice that the top end casino have something I will refer to as a "catch", or perhaps the word "theme" would be a better term to use. Any of you who have been there knows what I'm talking about.
NTCC is a Real Estate Company. "Jesus","God" and pretty much everything associated with it is just the "Theme". It's really sad to have to say that, and I derive no joy from making the parallel.
a fellowship meeting was when churches within a close area would all go to one church for services, and afterwards go somewhere to fellowship (hang out) with each other.
so if there were churches in three different towns / cities in your state, all three would go to one church for a fellowship meeting.
=============================
on another topic, i was speaking with a close friend who still attends ntcc but for some unknown reason, they recently stopping communicating with me altogether.
i think kekel or kinson or something happened where he was told a lie about me and thus stopped commo with me.
I guess you learn who your real friends are !
==========================
i can say kinson lied and maybe even kekel because when i ran into kinson awhile back, he said i know you left because of such and such.
so obviously someone told him a lie because i never spoke to anyone why i left the new testament christian real estate company.
==============================
as far as financial burdens, since when have they cared about financial burdens ? they let out the slack a little bit to allow someone more control of their finances through the years, but i'm sure if they need to jerk those reins about your neck back, they can and will.
=========================
you in ntcc only think you're free.... you're just in a bigger cage.....
for a minister needing money for the fellowship meeting, why not let the pastor of that church use his escrow funds ?
oh right, i forgot that is for kekel and davis' personal desires and expenditures
Bottom line is; Kekel sucks, Kinson sucks, Davis sucks, but other than that they're a bunch of great guys. NOT!
You find out who your friends are, that is true, when you leave the NTCC I would be surprised if anyone speaks to me when they run into me. I barely got that respect when I was with the NTCC, quite frankly, I am surprised when I do get spoken to, usually I would just be ignored or close to it. So sad. To think I stayed with a church as long as I did and really only have a handful of people I can even talk to, BECAUSE THEY LEFT TOO. I am not bitter, but I am disheartened.
Hey Kekel and company God sees everything that you're doing and you may think you are getting away with it but Jesus see's right through your schemes. Just saying.
Just got some spam. Had to set comments to require word verification again.
Chief,
Still having problems posting on your blog with the word verification. I'm having to post through from my cell phone. I've tried different browsers and still have the same problem. If I'm having this problem it is possible that others are also. I googled this problem and found other blog owners are experiencing this also. Type in "can't comment on blogger word verification doesn't work" then arrow down to the "blogger comment system doesn't work well" choice, and you will find other blog owners with similar problems and some options for solving this.
DnA
test test
Relaxing (allowing more) third party cookies (settings in the privacy settings of your computer) will allow your comments to go through. Use your computer's help menu to see how to allow third party cookies.
Test on Mozilla Firefox. Using this browser, I had to preview the message first before it even displayed word verification. This is the first problem I've had.
Chief
It was our cookie setting Chief. I tried fire fox and chrome but it wasn't until we relaxed our third party cookie settings that we were able to post. Another way is to post 3 or 4 times using different word verification attempts. If other people have their cookie settings in the "high" security mode they might have the same problems as we had. Not sure if blogger has a solution other than relaxing cookie settings.
DnA
Yeah, Chief, it's like we talked about earlier. Upgrading has moved up a little higher on my priority list. I see a trip to Office Depot in our future. Thanks for checking that out for us. We are behind the times, Chief. If you don't keep up with technology, you'll be left behind.
That's cool. Even though it doesn't apply to our last discussion, as an operating system, Windows 7 has been much more stable than any previous Microsoft Operating system I've used certainly to include Windows XP. I almost switched to a Mac but Windows 7 has worked so well for me that I have no desire to pay a premium for a Mac. Like any other MS Operating System, you still have to keep up with your updates if you don't like having it done automatically which I don't. I like to view the updates I'm installing prior to doing so. You have to do that with optional ones anyway. PCs don't cause me a problem using Microsoft software but I'm also not bad with computer software and hardware for that matter.
I understand the stability and security that a Mac offers but I'm just not paying double or triple for Mac vs a PC. Of course I maintain my own computers and network and Windows 7 has been great.
Chief
Sorry about getting this thread off track a bit with the computer glitches we were having.
Getting back on topic, this "Fellowship Meeting" thread really exposes the ntcc for what they are all about. It shows how that full grown men are treated like rebellious teenagers. It also shows a total lack of trust within the organization. The ntcc is a total scam and they are using extreme measures right now to keep their own ministers from discovering what they are all about. You can bet that this topic would not be on Kekel's blog if it were not a problem. People are seeing through the veneer.
I have to say that it seems like every time Kekel opens his mouth he does more damage. You got to wonder if this is effective in any way. The more you try to keep people in their place and quench their spirit by restricting their freedom, the more people will see that you have something to hide. The ntcc has a lot to hide and Kekel has gone off the reservation here. Damage control is in everything Kekel writes now a days.
I believe that there are sincere people in the ntcc and they are slowly realizing what is taking place around them. You ministers are not stupid even though Kekel tries to make you feel that way. A study on cult members shows that they are of above average intelligence. Kekel has publicly insulted you and if he has his way he will manipulate every last one of you.
It's all about money. The ntcc is a fraud and a cult. They will continue to treat you like a rebellious teenager if you allow them to. This isn't what Christianity is supposed to be all about.
DnA
Now that I'm out of the NTCC and I can see things clearly, I think it's amazing that NTCC pastors allow Kekel to talk to, and to refer to them the way he does. Kekel is no more than a spoiled clown who's had everything handed to him on a platter. I don't like RWD either but RWD is the one who set up the NTCC, not Kekel. Kekel is simply the guy who married that dudes daughter, nothing more. Kekel has no more spiritual qualifications than any other minister in the NTCC and in fact he has less.
There are dogs who are more spiritually in tune with their creator than Kekel is. I'll tell you this much, Kekel wouldn't tell me jack. NOTTA, NOTHING, ZERO. Kekel is no more than the little rich spoiled boy to whom his rich daddy gave everything and as a result, now he expects everything and thinks he is entitled to everything.
He expects everyone to respect him. He thinks he is quote, "sovereign". Again, it amazes me. Kekel is constantly dogging out other ministers, and that's evident to anyone who is willing to read his fellowship meeting blog statement with an open mind. Kekel makes you guys sound like a bunch of litter kids and I don't care if it's true or not. If Kekel can talk about you that way than there is no reason you can't talk about him the same on an open forum. He posted his statement on an open forum didn't he? You know what, I got to give it to Kekel. He has a whole lot more backbone than the ministers he's talking bad about. He even put his name to his posts. He says that some NTCC ministers are a bunch of whiners and he don't make no apologies. I got to give him credit for that, he ain't scared of you guys like you are scared of him. I say Kekel is a spoiled brat who's been handed a silver spoon and you NTCC ministers know what I'm saying is true but you'd never tell him that. Kekel has a whole lot more backbone than you do.
Oh I know, I almost forgot; many of you NTCC ministers want to take the high ground and not act like Kekel because you want to be "Christians". You are not being a Christian, you are being used and you are being a sucker. The Bible never says that a Christian can't speak his mind. Jesus spoke his mind with the Pharisees didn't he? Well Kekel is no different than a Pharisee.
Chief
kekel does NOT have backbone. He just has back-up.
kekel does NOT have backbone. He just has a big mouth and lots of back-up.
Anonymous said...
kekel does NOT have backbone. He just has back-up.
He may have back up but back up can't stop you from telling him off. Back up can't keep someone in his organization. I left and so can anyone else. Back up can't stop you from calling his house like I did and expressing how you feel. Back can prevent you from beating him up but who wants to do that anyway? Despite how despicable I think the guy is, I wouldn't attempt to do him or anyone else in the NTCC bodily harm unless they put their hands on me or my family. I can however talk to him anyway I want and Kekel doesn't have a problem talking to NTCC ministers anyway Kekel wants.
In that regard he does have backbone. Sure he is hiding behind his position and I got that but his position can't stop me from telling him off. You see if you give Kekel a good piece of your mind a couple times, he'd slow down with his approach. Kekel is not a Godly man. In fact he is anything but. If someone in the NTCC tries to verbally attack me I'm going to attack them right back with words equally as powerful. I'm not scared of those clowns. If they were Godly men I might have reason to show fear or respect but they are not. RWD is a crook and Kekel is a con artist who is probably the biggest hypocrite I've ever met in my life, (next to his father in law who is running a very close second and maybe taking the lead every now and then).
Chief
mdr said, Somebody told me it was said in Graham that the Reeds are not ever welcome back at ntcc.
Breaks your heart, huh, mdr?
mdr said, and there won't be any ntcc overseer there and that's what really bothers you, Michael, doesn't it?
What bothers them is that if someone who leaves does something for God. They would rather see you in a gutter, makes better preaching in Graham. He probably thinks you're starting your own organization. He is paranoid you know.
MDR said...
We don't need permission from you,
Chief said...
You better believe we don't need permission and I won't be asking for any. I don't need Kekel the con artist to approve anything I do or anyone I meet with. MDR told me the other day that ministers aren't allowed to freely talk to previous church members who are attending the NTCS. What kind of mess is that? That's just a control cult game and no more. Whoever want to come to my house comes, where ever I want to go I go, I talk to whoever I want to talk to and I don't need permission from the likes of Kekel or RWD. Them clowns don't pay my bills and they never have, I was an idiot enough to pay theirs. Those crooks should have been asking me for permission.
The days of them clowns controlling my life are over. They don't have to worry about me ever coming back to their church cause I'm not interested.
Chief
Kekel was most likely poor all his life and married into wealth, from what he has said over the pulpit his family is so beneath him now. I always felt, is this a Christian way to talk about his family, he talked about his Mother like she was poor white trash. I thought what? Why would he talk like that about his own Mother. This man claims to be saved and filled with the Holy ghost, something is wrong with this picture. Oh, I forgot, he has a new Daddy, its Davis and his mother in law. What does he need his own Mother for, so sad. What is wrong with him.
That shows the kind of guy Kekel is. Talk about his own Mother from the pulpit. Honor thy mother and father. I thought that was one of the commandants? Kekel must have thrown that out just all the rest that RWD taught that Kekel didn't feel like following. Kekel thinks he is above everybody. You can tell in the way he talks and writes. He is full of himself.
He certainly wasn't rich before he married Tanya. He'd been in the Military like all the rest. I don't think any of them came into the NTCC rich to include Kekel. If I had a good portion of everyone's tithe check in Graham going straight to my bank account, I'd be rich also. Save a little money, invest a little money, botta boom, botta bing. There you have it. It's not like Kekel saved every dime. We estimated (based on the figures that we saw on Charles Wright Academy's website) that it cost the Kekels nearly $200,000 just to put Grant through private school from K-12. That's good old NTCC tithe payers money hard at work. So it wasn't like the Kekels were saving every dime. He spent as much as he wanted and invested and saved as much as he could. When you have an endless supply of money rolling in, for a half way smart person that ain't that hard.
Kekel can say he didn't blow his money but spending nearly $200,000 on your son's grade school education isn't exactly being frugal. Tanya going on her daily shopping spree's isn't exactly being frugal either. Man RWD funneled so much of the NTCC monetary intake into the Kekel's bank accounts that it would make a strong healthy man sick.
Then what did the Kekels do as a slap in the face and to add insult to injury to all other NTCC parents? They sent their son to a Secular Catholic College to obtain a secular degree. Yep, y'all got played like a fiddle. I can hear the music now. Y'all got GANKED. The NTCC has never been anymore than a money making scheme with the Kekel's and a few select others as the beneficiaries. Man the Kekel's have never followed the rules and they've had RWD's blessings all along. What RWD blasted others for even attempting to do, he payed for the Kekels to do with the NTCC tithe payers money.
Can you spell, TOOK, GANKED, HOODWINKED, BAMBOOZLED, PLAYED, CONNED, USED or TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF? If you've spent any time in the NTCC, that is precisely what has happened to you.
Chief
Anon wrote: I always felt, is this a Christian way to talk about his family, he talked about his Mother like she was poor white trash. I thought what? Why would he talk like that about his own Mother.
Across the pulpit in Graham Kekel said he visited his mother and her toilet seat was all messed up and made fun of the redneck situation in Michigan. Well why not buy her a new toilet seat instead of trash the poor woman to his congregation. Surely he has enough money he could buy her a nice padded one. Just saying.
Where does Tanya do all her shopping sprees? online? I will say one thing,apparently she has never been seen shopping for food, like normal folks would. Does she have it delivered? I would not be surprised. Graham is a very small town... you run into everyone there.
It is hard to shop in 3 inch heals. Put the sneakers on instead and look really kooky. Just like the rest of the ladies. Lol.
spending nearly $200,000 on your son's grade school education isn't exactly being frugal.
i thought grant went to cwa for high school and new hope for elementary school.
According to the Charles Wright Academy, grant started there as a freshman.
Jeff said "There are dogs who are more spiritually in tune with their creator than Kekel is. I'll tell you this much, Kekel wouldn't tell me jack. NOTTA, NOTHING, ZERO."
Amen and Amen.
Check this out. Michael learned a few couples who have left ntcc are going down to Oregon to visit another couple that recently left.
Michael didn't like that idea, so he got in touch with the man in Oregon and tried to stop the meeting from taking place. That woman in Oregon is more holy than Michael's wife in her tight clothes, trampy shoes, and seductive spirit. Yeah, I said it.
Michael, you're a blow hard and you're not sovereign. Your wife is not even an example of the believer.
And what's it to you what anybody who leaves your organization is doing now? You're losing control of those within ntcc because the light is shining in the dark places. So what makes you think we can be coerced by a punk like you who doesn't even display the minimum of Christian attributes? Once again, I ask you, WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?
Somebody told me it was said in Graham that the Reeds are not ever welcome back at ntcc (that's Christianty) but we haven't thought about returning -- not one time, not for a millisecond -- and never will. Thank you very much.
Hey, if anybody else wants to go to Oregon this weekend, shoot me an e-mail. We're looking forward to a good time in the Lord. We don't need permission from you, and there won't be any ntcc overseer there and that's what really bothers you, Michael, doesn't it?
mdr
MDR said:
Hey, if anybody else wants to go to Oregon this weekend, shoot me an e-mail. We're looking forward to a good time in the Lord. We don't need permission from you, and there won't be any ntcc overseer there and that's what really bothers you, Michael, doesn't it?
LTravis said:
Hey MDR count me and my wife in. I always enjoy worshipping the Lord in spirit and real truth.
Larry, that's great news. We gonna have a goooood time. Just think, No RWD or Michael Lording over us trying to put a wet blanket on our fun. See you this weekend my friend.
mdr
"When slavery is all you know, freedom appears as the prevailing evil. When all you know is Law, Grace is the threat to your religion."
I'm telling you the truth, Jesus wants to set you free from this religion (ntcc) and live in the sunshine. Grace is the biggest threat to the ntcc because they can't control it.
The ntcc is like drinking from a can of poison, it's killing you.
Chief said:
"There are dogs who are more spiritually in tune with their creator than Kekel is."
Alfalfa replies:
Hey Chief, long time no see, you made my tail wag with that statement. I have been following your blog now for several dog years and while I am now a little older, I also am a little wiser. Check this link and you will find a few buddies of mine that will confirm your statement.
Thankful Dogs
You know Chief, I can't understand why people would subject themselves blindly to somebody that is mean to them all the time. When you love somebody, they are supposed to love you back. I try very hard to instill these values in all my pups. Each one is important and they each have a special purpose in this life. If I were to treat them like idiots they would end up in the streets eating out of trash cans. Ain't no pup of mine going to serve any time at the SPCA. I've found if you treat others the way you want to be treated that they will be there for you when times are bad. I have practiced these values in my life and now my master not only buys me food, and toys but I get lots of attention and everyone in my family is loved. It can be a dog eat dog world but if you show a little respect to those you are surrounded by, you will establish loyalty and trust in your friendships.
How do good men become a part of the regime??
They don't believe in resistance.
The ntcc is a land flowing with gasoline and the leadership threatens you with a match every time they speak. Please listen to this song it is powerful.
http://youtu.be/gJsKEo4_eHw
I was born into a system constructed for failure
It�s a sinking ship manned by drunken sailors
An escape artist behind the bars of a jailor
An asthmatic attack when we forgot the inhaler
If the shoe doesn�t fit what good is a tailor
In the midst of a crisis please cancel the gala
Without a symphony there�s no need for a prelude
To foreshadow what�s to come.
See the secret committees, commence with their meetings
To make red tape in response to simple questions
Questions threaten the perception of the beneficial systems
A pyramid scheme with it�s cogs and it�s pistons
Mechanization of men, making more and more
Live in a miserable exhistance
How can so few, claim so many victims
And this begs the question
My rest is a weapon against the oppression
Of mans obsession to control things
Look at the long line of make believe kings
The lord of the flies want�s you to kiss his ring
Follow new rules with invisible strings
And become a puppet in the diabolical scheme
How do good men become part of the regime
They don�t believe in resistance.
Hold fast like an anchor in the storm
We will not be moved
Lesson number one, overcome
Every fear of regret and confusion
It�s all illusion, delusion
Sent to disconnect the holy fusion
Of spirit and the flesh
Every mortal breath, is meant to bring forth fire
But only when the fear of death, gets consumed
On the funeral pier
So let the flames rise higher
Let every man be considered a liar
If he doubts the goodness and faithfulness of God
Itching ears will compulsively nod in approval
When unbelief is taught in all our temples and schools
But God can restrain the madness of a fool
He can bring His truth through the mouth of a mule
You can move an mountain without any tools
It just takes the faith of a little seed
to make a way through what might seem to be
Impossibility,
And the ability will match the occasion
The outcome will defy explanation
The liberation will not be televised
When it arrives like lightning in the skies
Hold fast like an anchor in the storm
For your love, we will rise and overcome
Through the fire
Hold fast my people and sing
Through peace and through suffering
All for the joy that it brings, to be free
It�s gonna cost us everything
To follow one Lord and King
True love endure everything
To be free
Hold fast, like an anchor in the storm
We will not be moved ~Josh
Anonymous said...
According to the Charles Wright Academy, grant started there as a freshman.
Chief asked...
So did he previously attend another private school or was it public? Tuition at Charles Wright was listed on their website at between approx $17,000 and $20,000 a year for four years. That equates to nearly $80,000 just for high school and from there back tuition was less as the grades got lower. Did Grant ever attend a public school? All private schools cost something and I haven't seen one that is cheap? Either way, I know he went to Charles Wright in high school and that was no small expense and it prepped him for college.
Chief
He was in a private christian school but it was a small school, that didn't have high school. I think it was only through 7th grade. I remember this because alot of the people in graham were all gaga about their children attending where grant was going to school.
I remember mothers saying in the conferences that their children were going to the same school grant was going! Like that gave the kids some validation on their scholastic achievement!
Grant went to New Hope private school all through elementary, then he went on to Charles Wright, then finished his high school education at Annie Wright. These are all private schools. The latter two are the 20,000 plus a yr tuition. I know I live in the area. This is a fact.
Grant did not ever go to a public school, I am absolutely sure of it. You can take that to the bank...
You keep saying he finished his high schooling at Annie Wright but this link would suggest that he played football for Charles Wright during his senior year.
http://www.maxpreps.com/athletes/CX7JxQdL1E-iZUznmGpd0A/football-fall-09/profile-grant-kekel.htm
The link indicates that he played for the Charles Wright Tarriers showing he was a senior. I wouldn't know if he could be in one school and play for another? Either way they both cost an arm and a leg to attend. Ok, for all it's worth I looked up tuition at New Hope. It's about $5500 per year for K-6 so assuming that GK attended there during those years that is approx $40,000 then add 7-8 at approx $10,000 per year and your are at $60,000 then take approx $20,000 a year at Charles Wright or even more at Annie Wright (because I just checked the tuition) and now you are a $140,000 dollars for a grade school education compliments NTCC tithe payers.
Having said all that my previous estimate was high, I'll admit. My previous estimate was based on the tuitions costs that I viewed on Charles Wright's website. Either way the point is still the same. $140,000 for grade school is some serious big cheese especially when we didn't pay a dime for my daughter to attend public school and she is currently attending an outstanding college where your grades and SAT scores have to be through the roof just to get accepted. There are plenty of kids who graduated with my daughter who did not get accepted into the college that my daughter is attending.
Additionally, my daughter also has a scholarship which covers her TUITION. There are other expenses at college than just tuition. A LOT. Room and board and food just for starters. Books ain't no joke either. Buddy it costs to send your kids to college and if the Kekels were willing to kick out for Grant's high school education you best believe they ain't holding back for his college.
The bottom line is, once again, we got played like fiddles. Christianity ain't all about everyone pooling their money together so some fat cat's kid can get put through the best schools that money can buy. And the main reason I put so much emphasis on this topic is because we were all taught that grade school for our kids wasn't that important in the grand scheme of things. Our kids education always was supposed to take back seat to whatever the church had going on and you all know it. NTCC pastors even pulled their own children out of school or held them back for the sake of the NTCCs schedule or so they just quit and go straight to the NTCS.
Well they didn't try that mess on Grant did they?
Chief
the thankful dogs reminded me of the following video:
watch it, it's not what you think:
http://youtu.be/H17edn_RZoY
Grant went to New Hope in Graham, he went there through grade 6, once he graduated, that is when it got expensive, New Hope is a reasonably priced Christian private school. Even some of the ministers children from Graham went there, it was not rediculously overpriced, I am sure it was still a stretch for the people who did send their kids to New Hope. But it was doable.
From the Wikipedia page about Annie Wright:
"The Annie Wright Middle School is a coed day school of grades 6-8. The rigorous academic curriculum is augmented by outdoor experiential learning opportunities, creative arts, athletics, clubs and activities. According to the school's website, tuition for grades 6-8 is $18,200."
After grade 8 the Annie Wright Upper School (grades 9-12) is for girls only; so unless grant had a sex change operation we don't know about, he did not attend high school there.
There are photographs of grant kekel graduating from Charles Wright Academy in Tacoma, Wa. And the CWA web site blog, Wright Back At Ya mentions that he came to them as a freshman. He also played basketball and football there.
New Hope Elementary is in Graham, Washington.
From discussions I've had with verna davis, grant's gran'ma, she was very taken / pleased with grant-o's teacher. I got the impression it was close to his home in Graham; but I don't recall her mentioning the name of the school at that time (It would have been elementary school as he was quite young at the time.)
So we know factually grant attended Charles Wright Academy in Tacoma, Wa. beginning as a freshman, playing sports including basketball and football, and graduating from there.
The other school information is pending verification that he attended those schools; but looks accurate as New Hope in Graham for elementary school, and Annie Wright for middle school.
DnA
Chief, it does not really matter in the scheme of things, Annie Wright, Charles Wright, whatever, we paid for it. And it was expensive. Yes, we where had. But I do know he went to both of the above schools, in which order, I don't know. But what difference does it make. We still paid for it.
Anonymous said...
Chief, it does not really matter in the scheme of things, Annie Wright, Charles Wright, whatever, we paid for it.
Chief said...
There it is. That pretty much spells it out.
Chief
I know another thing. The money that I used to give to the NTCC for so called "world missions", I just spent on my wife Valentine present. She got some nice stuff and boy was she happy.
Good Job Chief. We had a great Valentine's day also. I got off early from work and stopped by and got some V-day stuff and surprised her. We got each other some really nice V-day gifts and the best part was that we got to spend some time together.
All my Valentines day's in the ntcc were spent alone and they didn't mean anything. It was not a day that we celebrated. In the ntcc if you were a single brother, Valentine's day was an insulting reminder that you were going stay single for as long as the powers that be wanted you to be. How sick is that?
Any time an opportunity presented itself some unqualified wife abusing preacher would tell you that you couldn't talk to this sister or that sister. How could we have been so stupid to listen to these Kooks and control mongers. When you get out from under their control you find out that they were all just a bunch of misguided scoundrels that had nothing better to do than manipulate other peoples lives.
If you are in the ntcc and letting these unscrupulous, degenerates tell you who you can talk to and who you can't love, you are missing out on the life that God intended for you to live.
Is there anyone from the ntcc that can give one example in the New Testament of Jesus or an early Church leader, (Apostle or Minister of any kind) telling someone that they couldn't talk to a woman? I can answer this for you. The answer is no, because God doesn't forbid men to talk to women. Maybe this is a contributing factor to why adultery is so rampant in the ntcc. People are in match-made relationships that they were forced into and other people are 40 and 50 year old virgins that were forbidden to marry.
What a bunch of sick freaks in the ntcc. No wonder single brothers were getting it on with their pastors wives. The ntcc is filled with sexual deviance and deviants. It's no wonder they have a divorce on demand policy. You get sick of your wife, go trade her in like a used car. Go see the snake oil salesman and see if he can match you up with a better bride.
DnA
Searching for truth?
One must eventually ask, does our beloved leader’s character resemble that of a lamb or wolf ?
Admitting you've been deceived is the first step to finding freedom.
Grace without truth is no grace at all, it’s a lie.
And to think that in the conferences it was frowned upon when the mother didn't take the kids out of the school to attend.
I rmember a woman actually wrote a letter to sis davis to try and exucuse herself of why she wasn't there in conference!
It is quite interesting that mck would actually try to stop that couple in oregon from having services.
I wonder why would he even get involved in that.
He can't control what people do, he is just making things worse.
Anonymous said...
It is quite interesting that mck would actually try to stop that couple in oregon from having services.
I wonder why would he even get involved in that.
He can't control what people do, he is just making things worse.
LTravis said:
The only control mck has is the control you give to him. He's a slave trader like his father in-law.
So, let me get this straight, Kekel called the person in Oregon who is no longer with NTCC and asked that this person not see the other persons that also left the NTCC. That is really strange and somewhat disgraceful. Why would a person that has nothing to do with either parties try to get involved in something that is clearly none of his business. Could it be that the persons in Oregon are still not sure about leaving. and just want to meet MDR to talk some concerns over. Why would Kekel think he has any say in peoples lives once they have left the organization. I am just a lay person but I find this baffling. The lengths that they will go to keep people in the organization is really disturbing. As an ex member, we had no idea this stuff was going on. WOW, is all I can say.
Or, do they get really upset, if you leave and then come on this blog, name and all, then can you expect phone calls, visits to your home, asking you to please stop. Do they threaten or intimidate people who leave and make their dissatisfaction with NTCC known? I guess they would prefer you to leave quietly and say nothing to anyone. Of course, they would prefer you to stay but, this is a free country. I just wonder what lengths they go to once you leave and make your name known as a Xer, and then what you can expect they will try to do to you or your family. No wonder there is so many anonymous posts, I don't blame people for staying anonymous. Me included.
I remember what tk told mck after being rude to sis. reed.
tk told mck:
"don't be so paranoid!"
mck is being paranoid when he is trying to stop some people that are no longer in the org. from getting together.
Of course, there are two sides to every story so unless that guy in oregon comes and tell why mck tried to stop him from getting together, we can only gather that mck still wants to be controlling.
Man, it seems that this subject deserves a post of it's own.!
Anonymous said, ' I just wonder what lengths they go to '
That's a good question. In ntcc they will go to any length to keep you there. Because they need you to clean their houses and pay their bills for them. They need a new mansion, another Cadillac, another Lexus, another Recreational Vehicle, another trip to Europe on your dime to shop for fine crystal. Another all expense paid trip to Hawaii where two couples, kekels and davis go but kekels don't show up at church until the last night of revival. Too busy lounging or sightseeing or shopping or touring or who knows what. Since there is no accountability for them, you really don't know. But they were not in church. That you do know. Even though the church sacrificed to pay for them to come there for a revival.
But in ntcc if you wake up and see how things are, how sinful the 'leaders' are, don't bother trying to reason with them. Don't try to get them to repent. Don't expect them to change and make things right. Because they won't do that. Instead they will target you as an enemy and run you off like everyone else before you who tried that. The testimonies abound. Just open your eyes and read.
But keep your mouth shut at least until you get out. Why? Because the pressure that will come your way as the 'leaders' target you and your family from the pulpit may be too much to handle. Just look at the Moreno family.
Kill the Whistle-blower, Promote the Adulterer: Sin the ntcc Way aka The Gossip Column
Spiritual Homicide: Murdering Souls In The Name Of The Lord
DnA
Phil Kinson's Adultery Impacts Moreno Murders: Roland Moreno Tragedy Begins to Unfold 8 Years After The Former New Testament Christian Church Member Allegedly Murders His Pregnant Wife, Young Child, Confesses to NTCC Pastor Jake Espinosa and Then Takes His Own Life.
kinson, kinson, you too have sinned...
It's shameful to promote somebody with such a disregard for women and lack of integrity to a position of trust as a so-called spiritual leader.
Do you really think a married man who goes to a whore house for sex or who thinks it's okay to grope and make out with a young teen when he is an adult seven years older than she is qualified to lead you and your family? I wouldn't want him near my family. And I wouldn't go to a 'church' where he is "hiding behind the pulpit".
Anonymous asked...
Why would Kekel think he has any say in peoples lives once they have left the organization?
Chief asked...
I have a better question. Why would MCK think he has any say in peoples lives who are in the NTCC? I also have the answer. Because people allow MUCK and RWD to perpetuate that nonsense. If people would put their foot down and put a stop to that mess, there would be one of only two possible outcomes. RWD and MUCK would either realize that they can't CONTROL people and stop that mess or they'd loose their entire congregation of ministers and members.
Of course MUCK and RWD would be millionaires anyway but they'd have to find ways to entertain themselves other than trying to make and enforce stupid rules while telling people what to do all the time. Let me re-emphasize my point. They shouldn't have any say in how people lead their lives. No one should have to ask them permission to visit or talk to anyone. Did Kekel ask anyone permission to allow his son to play football through high school? Did Kekel ask permission to send his son to a Catholic college? Did Kekel ask permission to purchase his fancy car? Did Kekel have to ask permission to have a large get-together over at his house?
So why should anyone have to ask him permission to do anything? Kekel is not in charge because God placed him there, he is in charge because RWD his daddy placed him there. Kekel himself has made it clear by his very own statements which resulted in the existence of this thread, that RWD places some seriously substandard ministers in their positions.
Hey, don't get mad at me, I'm just rephrasing what Kekel wrote. So I'm supposed to trust RWDs judgement in minister placements, especially after guys like Denis double crossed him? I have no reason to believe that Kekel was called by anyone say no less God and therefor neither I or anyone else has any reason to answer to Kekel or RWD for that matter.
Have you forgot, Barnes just left the NTCC and according to RWD, Barnes was supposed to be the greatest minister RWD had. I'm supposed to trust RWD's judgement concerning minister placements? I'm also supposed to follow Kekel because supposedly God called him? Get real!!! Kekel don't tell me a thing!!! I rather follow a frog into the water than follow Kekel to a baptism.
Chief
I Almost forgot. I went out and bought my wife a second valentines gift today. Well, a couple more. I figured now that I've stopped giving the NTCC all my extra money, and I've got so much left over, I might as well spend it on someone (other than myself) and my wife is a whole lot better choice than RWD and MUCK. They've already got enough stuff anyway. I know how bad RWD needs that Rolex so it was a really tough choice to spend it on my wife rather than RDUB. Man I wish I had some extra money to spend on the MUCKster and old RDUB. If I could only spend some money on another gun for RDUB or some more expensive furniture for the MUCKster family.
I know how I can make up for it. I'll sell my wife's gifts and buy her a plane ticket to Graham so she can go clean TK's house and wash the MuckityMUCKster's underwear. Now that I have a plan, I can sleep well tonight. I'm sure to get a blessing now.
The Chiefster
I just thought of another name for Davis. RDoublecross.
I read those links about MCK and PAK groping their young wives BUT where were the girl's parents?? I thought the people that dated had to do that wall thing or be chaperoned?? Even my "sinner" parents would NOT have let me date some old man! If they were that young, then how old were they when they married?
That is a double standard that these young girls can be trusted to be alone with their boyfriends yet not trust people of legal age to date the regular way. That seems backwards.
Anonymous asked...
I read those links about MCK and PAK groping their young wives BUT where were the girl's parents??
Chief said...
Hey it was a different standard for those two. No need for parents. They were spiritual enough to deal with the temptation. A little touchy here, a little feely there, no big deal. Of course we would have got blasted for doing that kind of stuff but I wasn't as spiritual as the "pastor's" daughter and her buddy.
Chief
Remember when ntcc screamed at YOU that the internet is the sinnernet? Well, ntcc is full of sin so... here you go:
Some links to ntcc FaceBook pages and photos.
Photo of 2170 Forest Ave
NTCS on FaceBook
1123 Holly Hills Ave. ntcc St. Louis Photo
ntcc Fresno, CA
That last one says it all in this comment on one of its wall posts:
"lets have fun saturday by going door to"
Of course the standard schedule still applies, as seen in this photo from the Fresno ntcc:
ntcc schedule
Also found this gem on the NTCS facebook page:
"Good news on Pulpit Delivery classes; Instead of a third year class it has become a first year class with additional trimesters to be added. Pulpit Delivery is now taught on Mon. evenings, and creates a fifth class for registered students."
shared · December 12, 2011 at 11:12pm ·
Yay! More money for them, less time for you; it's a ntcc win-win; that's true!
--------
Cults want you too busy to think for yourself, too tired to care, no free time to spend with anyone not in the cult; so you are isolated and so broke you are forever dependent. Hmmn. ntcc sure has it down to a science.
DnA
I don't know if anyone mentioned this as to the reason why they stopped fellowship meetings. Could it be that fellowship meeting money was not being placed in the place it was intended. So therefore they had to put a stop to this extra income coming in. Where did all this money go anyways? I know in all the times we gave in fellowship meetings not once did I ever see any of that money go to help the local churches as they claimed. Money came out of our own pockets and we sacrificed to get that work to grow. I don't recall kekels or anyone else sacrificing as those of us out in the work!
DT asked...
Could it be that fellowship meeting money was not being placed in the place it was intended. So therefore they had to put a stop to this extra income coming in. Where did all this money go anyways?
Chief said...
No, I wouldn't think that was the case. If there was no traveling preacher, I don't think there would be that much extra money anyway, (where the offering was concerned) because for a long time, (at least were I was at) not a lot of people went to fellowship meetings. And even if there were a decent number of people who gave in the offering, every month the location of the fellowship meeting changed. So even if one church or one pastor directly benefited financially from the fellowship meeting, the next month a different church and pastor would benefit so basically it would all equal out in the long run.
I don't believe what you suggested would be the case and I'm fairly confident of that.
One main thing the NTCC leadership thrives on is maintaining control over the flow of information. This isn't speculation, this is fact. They absolutely don't like people talking between each other, especially about "sensitive or classified" information. When I say "sensitive or classified" information I mean information that the NTCC leadership doesn't want everyone to learn about. For those of you who don't understand the NTCC leadership listen to this and listen good.
The NTCC leadership absolutely, without question thrives on doing their best to keep people in the dark about much of what goes on within the NTCC. The NTCC leadership has always placed much emphasis on restricting the flow of information concerning certain events such as why people really leave the NTCC, how money is distributed throughout the organization and moral and ethical break downs within their ranks. I'm convinced beyond doubt that this is the main reason that the NTCC leadership put a halt to the fellowship meetings. The NTCC does not want people to know why Barnes left. They've kept a tight lip on that one.
Too many people were leaving the NTCC for the same reason's, too much of the same information was starting to circulate, and stopping fellowship meetings would limit that to a degree. If one group of people, in one particular church had knowledge of a certain scandalous NTCC event, the NTCC leadership would rather try to confine that information to that church than allow it to spread as a result of "unsupervised" fellowship meetings.
Get-togethers such as fellowship meetings are exactly how Denis managed to effectively coordinate his efforts while facilitating the split. That is why Kekel didn't like the idea of MDR meeting with a bunch of other exNTCC ministers even though they'd all already left the NTCC. When people talk, the NTCC leadership loses because the NTCC leadership has so many dead bones hidden in their closets and they know it.
Prior to the internet, the NTCC leadership could keep tight control of the flow of information but now their dirty deeds are known but "not yet" to all their churches, hence the need place restrictions on open "unsupervised" fellowship meetings. They don't want one disgruntled church to affect all the rest.
Chief
The only way I can see the NTCC leadership making a decision to benefit "them" financially from the fellowship meetings it that now they have to be supervised by overseers. Well, when an overseer in town, the overseer almost without exception gets the offering. I've witnessed a case where the overseer opted to give the money to the church but that was an exception not the standard. So being that fellowship meetings now won't happen unless they are supervised by an overseer, guess where all the money might go? I could be very well be wrong but I would think the money would go to the traveling overseer and I think I'm right. That would be the only financial angle that I can see the NTCC leadership would have invested in fellowship meetings.
Get their overseers paid pretty well because a bunch of churches all would come together and that might result in a halfway decent offering. The NTCC always has an angle that benefits them and of that you can be certain. The NTCC leadership's financial schemes don't benefit the ministers or the church members, they benefit the organization and the NTCC higher leadership at the expense of the church members and ministers.
Chief
It is true about not knowing all that goes on when you're in a church.
When the shunks left the only thing that was curious that I noticed was that in that conference her sis was asked to testify and sing!
To me that was a little odd because the only singer allowed in conferences to sing was tk or the choir.
YOu'll be surprise how many things were kept secret before the internet, but now they can't stop people from finding out things.
Anonymous said...
You'll be surprise how many things were kept secret before the internet, but now they can't stop people from finding out things.
Chief said...
You better believe it. Everything was kept secret. I asked about what happened a minister and his wife and I was told nothing but to pray for them. Why in the world was I supposed to pray for them? Because they left the NTCC? That didn't necessitate prayer but rejoicing.
Now about Sister Rodriguez singing. They were throwing that woman a bone, that's all it was. Trying to throw her a little doggy biscuit because she was still with the NTCC and her sister wasn't. Kind of like a reward for being a good little girl. I'm not saying that in a derogatory fashion toward Sister Rodriguez, but in derogatory fashion toward the way the NTCC leadership operates.
The NTCC leadership uses duties like singing during service, taking up the offering, leading song service, being the service leader and playing instruments as gifts which are only given to the most faithful. And here is the sad part. The folks who receive these gifts often eat that stuff up!!!! "I'm so proud of myself because pastor asked me to sing during conference". "I get to play the drums, cool". "Oh, pastor asked me to take up the offering".
A dog bone here and a dog bone there for being good little boys and girls while those little gifts keep these people strung out like they are on crack. Dangling from a string like a "PUPPET". Manipulation at it's best. Get to stand up in front of people and look all important, woopty doo.
That is how they got Terry. Let him lead song service during conference despite his shady past laden with moral indiscretions. That's what motivates Jones. Let him be an overseer, he'll ignore the obvious double standards and stick around as long as we give him a piece of the pie. Well here is the problem. That approach works for some people but it didn't work for Barnes and Denis. They wanted a bigger piece of the pie that they knew they rightfully deserved. Ministers leaving and taking people with them is not totally uncommon in the NTCC.
Chief
During the fellowship meetings the person in charge of collecting the offerings would always mention that the offerings were for world missions.
I'm not sure if they have that department anymore or if they have a world missions director.
I remember that the pastors would say that the offerings were given to world missions to start new works and all that.
Maybe the people that were oversees trying to start a new church were given any monies to begin with.
I know in the states you go to a town and start from scratch on your own dime, maybe its different now but I dont think so.
By the way chief, the words to post comments are so difficult to decipher, they are a burden to type!
Kekel said:
"The offerings taken up in those meetings went to the Home Missions program; a reserve fund for expenses related to helping fledgling churches in the USA. The money wasn't just given out to 'spenders', but used to bail out lots of Pastors in a bind, trying to get their church started. Those offerings didn't come near covering the expenditures, and the Org. carried the rest. Home Missions is no more."
DnA said:
The above excerpt was taken off of Kekel's latest blog post. If this is true, there might be something to DT's claim. I remember attending Fellowship meetings while at Ft. Bragg, in the 80's, and there were sometimes well over 100 people. During that time however, the money supposedly went to the hosting church as Chief said. If Kekel is telling the truth about this "home missions" program, it sounds like it could be a big slush fund like the world missions fund. I call them slush funds because there is no accountability and the ntcc has a history of zeroing out escrows and taking up offerings for one thing and spending them on another.
Fellowship meetings were usually pretty fun because you believed you were the only Christians in your area, and you got to go to other areas and be around other Christians that dressed like you, talked like you and believed that they were the only people in their area that were going to heaven. Sad but true.
I can not say for certain what the original purpose for having fellowship meetings was. I could speculate that the original purpose of fellowship meetings would have been to justify an all expense paid vacation for a board member. Letting churches get together every month around the globe could provide an opportunity for an Overseer to drop in unannounced or on short notice to clean house and in the process justify a Recreational Vehicle trip across the country on your dime.
At some point fellowship meetings became more of a liability than an asset for the reasons Chief mentioned and RWD put an end to them.
Kekels statement: "The money wasn't just given out to 'spenders', but used to bail out lots of Pastors in a bind, trying to get their church started."
There are many former pastors that participate in the blogs and there have been may X-ntcc'rs that have posted on factnet and the blogs. Most of the stories I hear on the blogs are of struggling pastors being told to pray it through or get a hold of God. They get humiliated for not being a leader and not putting things together.
DnA
Anonymous said...
During the fellowship meetings the person in charge of collecting the offerings would always mention that the offerings were for world missions.
Chief said...
Even though I have no doubt that what you're saying is true, for whatever reason I don't recall that. I didn't miss much but that must have just gone right over my head. It doesn't surprise me one bit. So the explanation that Kekel gave as it pertains to your statement just became even more bogus. If the churches were loosing money because for example the money was going toward Tanya Kekel's furniture, I mean "world missions or home missions" then all they had to do is stop claiming it would go to home missions and let the hosting church keep it. This business of bailing out struggling churches is also bogus. Let Graham bail out struggling churches because Graham is the reason these churches are struggling in the first place. The system for building churches that Graham set forth sucks. It wouldn't have been that much money anyway at least for one church. All of them in the NTCC all put together would have raised a decent amount but I still say they stopped fellowship meetings because they were afraid of the spread of information.
Yeah, this new word verification is kind of hard to make out sometimes.
Chief
Anonymous wrote..."...When the shunks left..." I never left (has anyone heard different); but, Deb did resign from the ministerial roles of NTCC in 2008.
Also, if all the justification(s) Pastor Kekel wrote was/were true, then NTCC should never have had fellowship meetings in the first place. Was Pastor Davis wrong (or is Pastor Kekel wrong now)?
As everyone knows, any NTCC policy change indicates someone "...missed God." And remember, "I've never seen a homosexual or Puerto Rican get saved."
Gregory
DnA quoted Kekel as saying....
"The money wasn't just given out to 'spenders', but used to bail out lots of Pastors in a bind, trying to get their church started."
Chief said...
That is so bogus it's unbelievable regardless of whether or not it's true. The only reason pastors were in a bind is because the NTCC system would suck every dime out of them. So the NTCC system sucks them dry and it becomes the responsibility of a bunch of people who give during fellowship meetings to bail them out? Are you serious?!!! While the whole time churches are taking up special offerings to buy RWD, guns, knives and watches and in the process the Kekels are paying around $140,000 to sent Grant through school from K-12????? It wasn't my responsibility in Columbus Georgia to bail out some preacher who QUIT his job to go to conference and couldn't pay his bills. It wasn't my responsibility to bail out some preacher who wouldn't work outside the hours of 8-5 or on Saturday and Sunday. It wasn't my responsibility to bail out some preacher who sent so much money to Graham that he couldn't even pay his dog gone bills.
Why in the world should collections taken up during a fellowship meetings be used for such purposes??? It shouldn't under any circumstances. I know why these preachers were in a bind. It was because the NTCC leadership forced them into a bind and because of their blind loyalty to the NTCC leadership.
Leave Graham, spend all or what little savings you got, only work from the hours of 8-5 and never on the weekends, send too much money to Graham that should stay in your church while funding an escrow account that you have no control of. It's no wonder so many NTCC preachers were in a bind. Man, for now I've had enough of thinking about this crooked conniving organization; I need to spend some time with my son who loves me. You NTCC leaders stink. That goes for every last one of you. You all suck!!!!!
Chief
Hey, what's up Greg? I hope everything is going fine for you and your wife.
Chief
I have a questions for you Chief and others, what is in it for Olsen, Johnson, Defrancesco and so on, what do these men even do. Are they paid employees? What is their role, Olsen seems to be around but doesn't do much also the same goes for Johnson. Defrancesco, he is a teacher, right. I am just curious.
I don't know what is in it for Olson but I know what Olson is. He is the mild mannered dude who everyone thinks is humble and as a result he is sort of a balance to RWD. Olson is probably the most effective "RWD enabler" who's ever existed. Olson is like RWD's henchman who (because of his mild mannered ways) is somewhat effectively deceptive. People see Olson as the soft talking, not easily rattled, temperate, humble guy who couldn't possibly be a crook. Nothing could be further from the truth where Olson is concerned. He may be the most diabolical dude in the NTCC. It seems like every time there is a scandal, Olson is the guy who covers it up.
Example: Years ago a young lady went to Olson with allegations that RWD had been having sex with her. According to her very own written statement which quite a few people have a copy of, do you know what Olson told her? "It's time for you to find another church". It would seem that Olson didn't do anything about the incident. RWD is still in charge isn't he? Olson just covered it up. It's also been told that Olson said that God didn't reveal before hand that the split was going to take place only for his wife to pipe in saying that they had known about it. Apparently Olson also kept quiet about Kinson being removed from his position oversees because of allegations of sexual misconduct. For years Olson has done RWD's dirty work.
Many of the ministers who've left the NTCC have reported that Olson is a snake who very carefully avoided answering direct questions while regularly ending the conversation saying he had to consult with Pastor. In other words, it was just a ploy of his used to temporarily alleviate the situation until he figured out a crafty way to deal with it.
Plainly put, Olson is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I wouldn't know what is in it for him but I suspect that he and Johnson are doing rather well. I can only imagine that they get their piece of the pie. They both know to much about RWD's and the NTCC's history not to. They are like the two witnesses who the prosecuting attorney can't get to testify because they've been bought with a price. Defrancesco? He is the treasurer am I correct? If so, that speaks for itself. You know the NTCC is crooked from a financial standpoint. They figured out every way in the book to cheat the government. Defrancesco is right in the middle of it all. They're all crooks; of that I'm confident.
Former ministers like MDR, Vic and GS could provide more knowledgeable information on those guys. As I'm sure you know, I was never an NTCC minister having never been to Graham for any reason. I've learned a lot from those who were.
Chief
Chief, was this Young lady, Tanya's childhood friend or another lady? I am curious if there was more than that one incident which sounded like child molestation {Tanya's childhood friend}, has Davis had more than one incident of infidelity?
I don't know if this lady was Tanya's childhood friend. I know this lady's name and I know who her mother is but I don't know what relationship she would have had with Tanya. There were a couple times where the incident was referenced on this blog but I don't recall exactly where. I have an idea. I'll go look.
Read this thread for your answer
Thanks Chief, I am aware of that situation, that is indeed Tanya's friend, apparently she was a teen when it first started. I also know that her Mother basically disowned her over this, I know her mother is married to a minister, so that answers why she did do that but it is no excuse. Why would a mother not believe her own daughter, why would this lady make this up. It is disgusting. It just goes to show you the mentality of NTCC people. I am so done with the NTCC. I feel sorry for this woman who's mother basically said my husband and the NTCC comes before my own daughter. How sad... that mother has to live with the decisions she has made.
Chief said, "Years ago a young lady went to Olson with allegations that RWD had been having sex with her. According to her very own written statement which quite a few people have a copy of, do you know what Olson told her? "It's time for you to find another church". It would seem that Olson didn't do anything about the incident."
------
Anon. said, "Thanks Chief, I am aware of that situation, that is indeed Tanya's friend, apparently she was a teen when it first started. I also know that her Mother basically disowned her over this, I know her mother is married to a minister, so that answers why she did do that but it is no excuse."
------
DnA say,
Ministers are required by law to report abuse.
Well, it appears the NTCC org. feel they are above the law or it really does not pertain to them.
Wouldn't it be something if there was a new thread started to invite all those who have left, to write their name? So many anonymous writers...so many that have left but are too afraid to say...
But how encouraging it would be to see all those who have gone through what we've gone through and whose eyes were opened...to see we are not alone and it's not just a few "bitter" people, like it's been said, but many great men and women that still love the Lord, but have made the decision to leave!!!
Still not ready to sign my name...
I am not afraid, but I do have good reasons for remaining anonymous. I am sure most of the other anonymous posters also have good reasons. To each his own, Chief knows most likely why, he can see what state each post is initiated from. That should be a clue to you.
Anonymous said...
Wouldn't it be something if there was a new thread started to invite all those who have left, to write their name? So many anonymous writers...so many that have left but are too afraid to say...
Chief said...
Many are not to afraid to say. They just got sick of blogging. I can think of many different people who used to post openly while displaying their name and they've stopped. I also understand why they stopped. Thinking about the NTCC gets old after a while. The only reason I still do it is because I see it as more of a personal responsibility because it's something that I started that I've always intended to finish. Not only that, I love soldiers and soldiers are the primary people the NTCC targets. I feel like I owe this blog to them.
If you were on factnet about 4 years ago you wouldn't believe the number of people who used to post there openly. It was the same on Tracy's blog and throughout the history of this blog many people have posted and displayed their names as well. People get sick of it after a while, their wife gets sick of it, their husband gets sick of it and the reason is, they want to put the whole nightmare in the past; FOR GOOD.
The NTCC has done so much damage to peoples lives that many people prefer not to even think about the NTCC at all and staying on the blogs makes that impossible. Sometimes posting openly makes the pursuit of employment challenging as well. Employers these days are searching the internet for the names of people who have been to interviews. A lot of potential employers don't think to highly of people who've been previously tied into a cult. Additionally some people who post are still in the NTCC and you can imagine the type of problems they'd get if they posted openly.
So there you have it. I don't think this blog or any other will ever have open posting like we saw about 3 or 4 years ago. I don't plan to quit.
Chief
That makes perfect sense Jeff.
Anonymous said...
That makes perfect sense Jeff.
I can think of tons of people who used to post who no longer do. I still talk to some of them on the phone. They still can't stand the NTCC, that hasn't changed. Many of the people who used to post did it more as a means to get stuff off their chest. After they posted for a few years many of them did get that stuff off their chest and they stopped posting. Some don't even read the blogs any longer because it reminds them of an organization they can't stand. My purpose for creating this blog was different as I've already stated. If an exNTCC minister were to ever start a blog exposing the NTCC and if it were to take hold, I would probably gradually let this blog die of inactivity. When I totally stop posting so does everyone else. That is just the nature of these google blogs. Factnet was different because everyone could start their own threads. Well Factnet changed their format a while back and when they did, the forums died. I don't plan to take this blog down but eventually it will die of inactivity and that is for certain. In the meantime I plan to get the word out about how crooked the NTCC leadership is. If the truth be known, where people getting involved is concerned, this blog has basically died already but the information will stay.
The good news is, I get to check my special hit counter that only I can view and a lot of people read this blog. I keep it that way to protect the people who are still with the NTCC. The hit counter that you can see is not the one that I view. The one that I view gives more detailed locations of the readers. If people don't post, oh well. Plenty are reading it and leaving the NTCC or simply choosing other churches if they are a visitor.
Chief
I just talked to a buddy today who left the NTCC years ago. Very recently, during his travels, he met someone who also used to be with the NTCC and is now with HOP. My buddy was pretty cordial when they met. The guy asked my buddy if he'd found a church yet obviously intending to invite him to HOP. My buddy politely ended the potential invite before the guy could go any further.
I've not been so nice with such encounters. I may have said, "Man, you sure did jump out of the pot and into the kettle", while proceeding to tell the guy stories of crockery surrounding Denis and his org. I know how it is though. I've known some people to leave the NTCC just to get involved with another cult only to leave that one as well. Just something I figured I'd share.
Chief
I met with the brothers who went to Oregon - to fellowship- their meeting in Eugene was blessed! And our meeting in Portland was great also! We all shared how good God is and all the good things that the Lord is doing! Hallelujah everyone!
Wow double-D, I'm really glad to hear that. MDR and Larry T were both talking about the trip. I'm glad everyone had a good time. And just think, no one had to deal with some clown deciding to use the pulpit for no other reason then to blast everyone. It's good to hear that people who have a heart for God can get together and freely worship. That is good news double-D and it's good to hear from you. I hope everything is well with you and your family. Take care.
Chief
There is life outside the NTCC and that much more abundantly. Taste and see that the Lord is good.
All is well here. It was odd hearing how the Reeds were only 3 months out of the "borg" and I've been out 30 years! ouch!
We talked about how people who have been damaged - by people - betraying them- insert CONTROL- into their theology- because they no longer TRUST people. RW: "People have made me the way I am." When preachers fail to forgive- it can poison your theology. Its effect is that you lose human compassion. In the end Divine, unconditional LOVE is the MAIN and ONLY thing. And that encompasses mercy. To the merciful- He is merciful.
Double-D said:
"In the end Divine, unconditional LOVE is the MAIN and ONLY thing. And that encompasses mercy. To the merciful- He is merciful."
DnA said:
Love is so much stronger that hate. The ntcc used to preach against love and mock other groups who preach about love all the time. "Love, Love, Love", I heard them preach in a mocking tone. I have to say that Love is the answer to just about every question. If you love God, you'll love your neighbor. Without love we are nothing. God is Love.
The ntcc was all about love for money and power. They used love as a conditional reward to get into our wallets. If you gave alot of money, you were greatly loved in the ntcc, but not really you, as much as the money you gave. You were used and played. If you didn't give, you were despised and if you didn't give enough you were treated less human. This is not real love and was never the source of God's love for us. If you can find one example of the disciples of Jesus being loved by Christ for giving money, please share.
Jesus spoke about giving to the poor, and said nothing about putting your money in an offering plate so that some preacher can send the majority of it to Graham, Washington, so that it can be spent on luxury items for the ones that make your life miserable. The ntcc are slaves that give their money to R-doublestandard who is a slave-driver, so that he can redistribute your money into areas that make him and his cronies rich. Your standard of living is sacrificed so the ones that make you live in poverty can live in excess. This is not love. This is the root of all evil.
DnA
I heard MDR preached in Oregon. NTCCs loss. Eat your heart out Kekel.
Anonymous said...
I heard MDR preached in Oregon.
Chief...
Probably a good service. That is the word I heard.
Chief
I'm sure all the Brothers and Sisters who participated in that fellowship meeting would gladly welcome anyone who is interested in attending the next one they have. This is speculation on my part but I suspect I'm right. Nothing like having freedom to worship without a bunch of unnecessary, non-biblical rules and restrictions placed upon the congregates.
Chief
Recall the story in Luke 16 - the rich man and the poor fellow begging at his gate? I wonder why they have so many "gates" you-know-where? And what did Jesus say about the guy with no compassion... where did he go? and where did the poor guy go? Did not Jesus say that the first would be last and vice versa? To be greatest- be servant of all? I told the brothers around the table- going to NTCC was our test from God- of how NOT TO BE. It was only a test! Did you pass the test? Have you lost your compassion for those for whom Christ died? Prove it.
Jeff said "Nothing like having freedom to worship without a bunch of unnecessary, non-biblical rules and restrictions placed upon the congregates."
Well said my brutha!
All I can say is Wow! Wow! Wow!(Wonder of Wonders). Jesus came down in our service and we had a good time basking in his presence. I will write more about our trip this evening cause I'm off to work right now, but what a great time we had with our friends.
double-D said:
"I told the brothers around the table- going to NTCC was our test from God- of how NOT TO BE. It was only a test! Did you pass the test? Have you lost your compassion for those for whom Christ died? Prove it."
DnA said:
Ain't that the truth. If a person would like to know what God really wants for them, take a look at the ntcc, and you will see what God DOESN'T want you to be. They will show you how God does NOT want you to live.
Many people in the ntcc have lost their compassion for souls, and they will allow their own converts to go to Graham and become indoctrinated, by immoral people that care nothing about them other than what they can use them for.
The ntcc is a harmful organization and they hurt more people than they help. They will use you for what you are good for and think nothing about you or the people you care about. They are corrupters and abusers. They are a menace to society and can not be trusted to tell the truth or to show compassion. Get you a Thompson chain or any red letter edition of the bible and compare the words and life of RWD and his circus of hypocrites to that of Jesus and you will see Pharisees big time.
DnA
I usually have a lot to write, (imagine that) but not this time. Double-D, MDR and DnA said it all. Great posts you guys and how true.
Chief
MDR,
Basking in Jesus' presence always beats drowning in Pastor Davis' presence.
We also have been to many wonderful church services, conferences, and fellowship meetings post-NTCC.
Anonymous
Hello to all. It truly was a wonderful weekend in Eugene, Oregon with some precious people. We were treated like family from the time we arrived on Sat. afternoon. We all went out to eat, then set up the church for Sunday service, and spent Saturday night together just having fun, food, fellowship and even playing a few games of pool too ;0)
God is doing a good work there in Eugene and they are very blessed. We got to meet the congregation and they're some great people.
Service started -- and contrary to the belief of a certain individual -- God does bless the worship of His people when good contemporary Christian music is being played. I mean, after all, how many times can you sing "I'll Fly Away"?
God came down in that service. Joe was on the drums, his wife played the piano and sang, Dave C. played the electric guitar, and a member played the bass guitar. Wow! Wow! Wow! All I can say is that we had church. At one point in the praise and worship, Dave slid them fingers down that fretboard of his guitar and a nice riff was born. When he did that, the Spirit of the Lord came down and people just began to worship the Lord with holy hands lifted high and resounding praise coming from their lips. This all really is possible WITHOUT an ntcc sign over the door, and it was so nice to enjoy worship without watching some raging maniac railing on his musicians during the worship and screaming at the congregation to raise their hands and worship louder. ;-)
On the way home, we put icing on the cake by stopping in Portland, Oregon, to meet Double-D for some food and fellowship.
Bottom line is: There are good friends, fellowship and worship outside of ntcc. We had such a good time that we're already planning our next get-together and it won't be very far off. So if you are leaving ntcc anytime soon, you're welcome to come on over and enjoy the life that God intended you to have.
Sounds like you had a good time.
I'm sure no one got jacked up when they returned from the bathroom either did they? I never got why Kekel did that to people. Jacking people up when they got back from the bathroom...so they turned a few heads but if you did it while he was preaching you got jacked up and embarrassed. I never got how he could do that to people and then preach about the LOVE OF GOD.
MDR said...
"and even playing a few games of pool too"
Chief said...
And before I reference MDR's quote, I'm glad that people had such a good time in Oregon. MDR mentioned people playing pool which was seriously frowned upon while I was with the NTCC and we all know it. Lets analyze this for a minute. Pool is a table game. Foosball is a table game. MDR and his friends played pool. MCK showed pictures on his blog of foosball being play at MCK's house. NTCC says pool is a betting game and shows the appearance of evil. I played foosball ever since I was a kid and also as an adult, and we used to bet on that also. What's the difference?
I'll tell you the difference. RWD said it was sin to play pool and people bought off on that notion hook, line and sinker. Playing pool on a pool table is no more of a sin than playing foosball on the foosball table that sits in Mike Kekel's house. Pool tables are often found in bars. Foosball tables were also often found in the bars that I grew up around in New York. What is the difference people?
If you want to think that MDR and his friends were "compromising" at the pool table then the Kekel's are also compromising because they have a foosball table in their house. Just about every dayroom that I ever went in while I was in the military had a foosball table and a pool table. Dispute that logic if you dare.
Now about the music. Why is it that in the NTCC, every kind of "Christian" music is worldly except Southern Country Gospel and the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir? According to the NTCC, Black Gospel is worldly, contemporary Gospel is worldly and everything else they feel like calling worldly? But at the same time, the NTCC will play the most hee haw, country western, southern Gospel "Christian" music that Mike Kekel can dream up, dig up, and conjure up. There ain't but one logical answer. RWD and MUCK love that stuff. In addition to that, it's been commonly reported by NTCC ministers who played instruments in Graham, that MCK AKA MUCK, would regularly kick out different Rock & Role guitar riffs in front of the other NTCC musicians, in an attempt to show them how certain types of music styles should sound. A little rock n role here and a little rock n role there. So what is the difference people?
Are you going to be a hypocrite and place judgment on MDR's fellowship because they played pool and played a different style of Christian music than the NTCC? If you like being a double standard hypocrite then judge on!!!
Play the music that you want to play to worship the Lord and let God sort it all out and stop being a judgmental hypocrite while thinking that everyone else is a compromiser because they do things differently than the NTCC. The two biggest compromisers that I know are RDoublestandard and MUCK because they change their tune every time MUCK tunes his guitar.
Chief
Going to Orgeon was better then a fellowship meeting!
Didn't have to conform to man's rules and ideas.
I could be myself ,didn't have to wear old lady clothes.
Looking forward to the next meeting!!!
:)
PS We laughed until we couldn't laugh anymore,it was great!
Quote of the day,
"If your religion makes you exalted and self-righteous and you consider yourself to be defiled by associating with "sinners", your sacrifices are in vain".
Finis Jennings Dake or as we use to refer to him: "Brother Dake", frowned upon reading material and much plagiarized reading material at the ntcs.
brother reed cracks me up!
"raging maniac"
I guess to all that have been through graham knows what he is talking about.
MDR said,
"At one point in the praise and worship, Dave slid them fingers down that fretboard of his guitar and a nice riff was born. When he did that, the Spirit of the Lord came down and people just began to worship the Lord with holy hands lifted high and resounding praise coming from their lips."
DnA say,
It's wonderful what happens when spontaneous worship is led by the Holy Spirit! ntcc insists on putting God in a box. They focus too much on their doctrine that God is a God of order. But He is just as much a God of spontaneity. -- The same God Who puts it in our hearts to appreciate the beauty of a dozen long-stem roses, also recklessly adorns the mountain meadows with random fields of wildflowers. -- So we see there is a beauty in randomness, in reckless abandon to Him, in worshipping Him freely the way the flowers rejoice or the way children dance and play.
There is too much structure and stiffness in the ntcc where every beat is measured, every chorus planned out and every service on a strict schedule. The ntcc limits God, placing Him in the tiniest of boxes -- man's rules.
"The ntcc in a nutshell."
"Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship...Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God"
I remember before I even met RWD they had already made him a "god".
"Do not place your trust in weapons, in riches, in yourself, in man, in governments or in the lying words of a godless society. Put your trust in God."
The ntcc has created doctrine to make themselves "gods."
Larry T said "The ntcc has created doctrine to make themselves "gods."
You oughta here Ashmore's teaching on this. He really believes that we're "little Gods", just so long as you are part of ntcc of course.
He's a whacked out guffis. That dude has a personality disorder. I've seen him have mode changes at the flick of a switch. It's scary.
That whole scene in ntcc is really weird. Kekel even looks like a psycho, just looked at the photos taken of him. He really looks disturbed, canked, weird-ed out, goofy, you get the point.
I still shake my head in wonder at how I got involved in such a messed up bunch using the Gospel for gain and operating as a church. I think the minds of the people running that org. are so full of themselves that they can't even accept the remote possibility that they are doing anybody wrong. Now that is a real spirit of delusion. They always taught pride can't see itself and they themselves are living it. Is it some sort of mental delusion that comes with pride or just pure evil?
Concerning fellowship meeting, the collections that were previously made in fellowship meeting were deposited within that hosting church's General Fund bank account and a check for that full amount was sent "Pay to the Order of" NTCC with that next week's report.
That amount was deducted from the total General Fund amount and wasn't counted in that 10% check that you had to send in for the total in Sunday Evening-Saturday offerings. So they received the full amount and the local pastor, his workers (if he had any) and those that wanted to contribute would pitch in for any additional fellowship if it was done at the church. Then you had the standard fare of Old Country Buffet, Golden Corale or any other gut busting feeding trough that you were shuffled to. Previously church members and ministers went to separate restaurants afterwards until that was changed based on the lunar eclipse, el Nino or some other thing that explains why RWD does what he does.
When things began to change, you had one of the Assistant to/General Overseer come in with their 4MPG exuberant RV and that hosting pastor was told to only pay up to $500 if they were there for that week. Many times they would stay in that city after Fellowship Meetings if that was their schedule or directed by RWD for a Revival. That $500 doesn't include any additional payment that the hosting pastor may do for an RV park, taking them to the Walmart / Target, buying them dinner or food or additional impressed blessings that were unspokenly expected of him.
He may allow you to keep that Sunday Morning offering and even want you to preach, but he'd gauge the response throughout the week and if by Thursday it didn't pickup with numbers and offerings, then he would probably leave by Friday morning. He didn't want checks or change from the church, but cash in an envelope. He also wanted the numbers to give to Graham in any supposed calls that he would be making to report his progress.
This blog is so enlightening. As a former member, I had no idea of the goings on within the organization. We just dutifully went to services, paid our 10 percent tithe faithfully, and had no idea of all the other "shenanagins", I just think of the fact that if I was still in this church or whatever you want to call it. I would still be supporting this kind of unchristian like phenomenon, that is known as the NTCC. Sometimes I think I was either very stupid or very blind. I feel extremely betrayed.
Anon said...
I feel extremely betrayed.
Chief said...
Join the club. Many of us do.
Chief
What a cult! Holy Moly, the NTCC has figured every way on the planet to get money back to Graham. The whole thing is nothing more than a big scam. That explains why L.D. Jones didn't want to stick around Mayers church. Based on what I was told, Mayers apparently got to a point where he wasn't interested in giving up his churches money during these so called "revivals" and he stopped going to fellowship meetings. Jones wouldn't stick around Mayers church because he wasn't getting enough money. I remember one occasion where Jones visit to Mayers church was very short lived and the lack of money coming in was the explanation I was given.
Even though Mayers was quite the jerk himself, frankly I don't blame him for not wanting to give up the churches money to some clown overseer or Graham.
This is more evidence as to why you don't just blindly give your money up to some church. So Kekel's answer was that fellowship meetings were stopped to relieve any financial burden that was placed on the churches. I got a better idea. How about simply STOP taking money from people and sending it to Graham and still have the fellowship meetings? The NTCC is nothing but a big scam and it is so obvious now.
Davis is one serious crook and so are many pastors in this world.
Chief
All that was shared about fellowship meetings and the handling of finances is true, and there is even more. Right now there is a preacher who has been with this group for at least 30 years and he is living in a storefront church on Guam, has no proper restroom or shower facilities, no kitchen, no healthcare, supporting all this by working two jobs. What else needs to be said?
Before, Fellowship Meetings were something that you looked forward to, because it was discouraged to call other ministers or for the wives to call each other because it was assumed that you would be gossipping or sharing some "evil report" that would discourage someone else and it would affect that other brother / sister's church. So you were an island unto yourself until you got a call saying that an AGO or World Missions Director (they promote and take up the pledges) would be in the area. So you call and tell folks in services leading up to that blessed event of them rolling their chrome trimmed gas guzzler into town. You wait at the RV park in order to make sure they have a spot reserved for them that is close to the office, well lit, but away from people(?). Unless they're there to replace you and your wife to transition the church, they're not there to fix it and they won't be coming soulwinning with you. The masks are put on and courtesies are exchanged, get ready for a Revival - NTCC style.
Another thing about Fellowship Meetings that RWD would be the main speaker, or for revivals for that matter, is that for that one service he would be given that money. Generally with him coming to that host pastor's church people would be coming outside of the fellowship area and you would probably have a "full house" with 80% ministers and 20% church members. So you have a unspoken rule that you each want to give a good offering. Let's say out of 25 ministers and their wives and children plus church members families you have 125 people. You can imagine if it was one of their bigger churches like St Louis.
That pastor is "on cloud 9" with all the people and when he counts or the church members finally get the offering let's say its $1250 (some put $20s, $5s, etc to avg $10 a person). Unless he elects to give it to the church, that money will go directly to RWD in an envelope and he will generally direct you to put it in the back of his car or to give it to him after eating at the local smorgasbord. What could that local church do with an extra $1250? Pay the church rent, utilities, get someone to fix the place, do something special for the church members and the list and the shell game go on...
Anonymous said:
"So you call and tell folks in services leading up to that blessed event of them rolling their chrome trimmed gas guzzler into town."
DnA said:
Rolling on floor laughing my butt off. Hope the word butt doesn't offend anyone by the way. We were had. These overseers were taking all expense paid trips across the country on our dime. We were pumped for money every time they came through. I remember revival offerings being taken up for weeks prior to the arrival of the super apostle (or overseer) in his rolling circus on wheels.
Not only were we giving our hard earned money for this blessed event that was to take place, but we also would furiously prepare the Servicemen's home and church for the arrival of our special guest as if the General of the Army were coming to do a white glove inspection. The Super Apostle was not only going to get the red carpet treatment, but the local pastor that jumped through all the hoops to worship the ground he walked on was about to get raked over the coals. The books would be opened and inspected to make sure not one dime of the precious money that flowed like a river of life into Graham was not being spent frivolously by the local pastor who earned it.
Everyone was warned to be on their best behavior. Lots of disclaimers would be issued to new members in advance so that they wouldn't think they were in a controlling cult. It was all a hoax. A total sham. We were bamboozled. Taken for a ride. How could we have been so ignorant?
DnA
Crazy question...Does anyone know why they don't record the sermons in their churches? They used to do it in some of the Servicemen's Homes, especially to send to those that were deployed for their benefit. RWD would tell you not to record him if he came to town though. So if they have this pure, untainted, throneroom experience, Holy Ghost annointed Gospel message that is the "truth for this generation", why wouldn't you record it to distribute it? Yes, I know Rev Briggs does and some pop up here and there on the internet (thanks Rev Mayers) but what about from them there in Graham? You have $50,000 worth of sound and speaker equipment but can't make an MP3?
DnA - We got ganked for sure...The feverish preparation from everything from cleaning the church multiple times the week prior to doing last minute fix up jobs to give the appearance of being "squared away". Marjorie Denis was notorious for checking the inside of drawers, pulling them out to reveal the dust that you didn't get and church member Sally would feel so bad afterwards. Yes I know, RWD said that the Servicemen's Home rules were made up by Denis but where did Denis come up with the idea?
The church members were asked to do many of this especially if the pastor had to cook the books to give himself a more favorable audit. They'd ask you everything from how much do you have on Sunday Morning to going over previous deposits, debits, etc. Olson was the most famous for late night bookkeeping where he'd scour over your books to make sure everything added up and would sign your ledger and $150business checkbook saying that it had been audited on that date. Of course anyone of them could do that at anytime, but you get my point. So they grill you, but if you asked for a tax statement for your tithe that you sent to Graham (*local pastors don't pay tithe into their own churches) you were met with questions.
Anonymous said:
"The church members were asked to do many of this especially if the pastor had to cook the books to give himself a more favorable audit."
DnA said:
I used to keep the books for several pastors in the ntcc. In one instance there were two sets of books. I didn't know about the second set at the time, but I found out later. I did know that the numbers didn't add up. I knew that something was wrong but I wasn't about to blow the whistle because I've seen what happens to people that try to do the right thing in the ntcc. Pastors in the ntcc are under enormous pressure to perform. They are expected and pushed to become full time ministers and when they struggle, often times they are ridiculed from the pulpit before their peers.
Pastors in the ntcc are in quite a predicament. Most of the money generated in their local church goes to Graham and they don't want to be dishonest or to lie because some of them are genuinely saved. Denis had no problem with embezzling money and lying, so he was able to make away with lots of money. One thief stealing from another, you can bet there would be no charges filed.
Keeping two sets of books or cooking them enabled a pastor to have more control over the money that he should have had control over anyway. The problem was conscience. If you were saved, you had to cross a line and steal from thieves, which is still stealing. This was taking place when I was keeping the books. I knew that you had to have witnesses and even then you could be castigated for ratting someone out. Also you when you loved and respected someone, you tried not to think bad about them. I had to attend a board meeting during a conference to explain what I knew about two sets of books.
I ended up leaving shortly after that myself. People are just trying to survive the best they can in the ntcc. They are placed in compromising positions and they have to make things work or they are a failure. A person can only take so much public humiliation. When you find yourself surrounded by a bunch of crooks and you have to be dishonest to co-exist with them, it's time to bust this pop sickle stand. Get out of dodge.
DnA
You have $50,000 worth of sound and speaker equipment but can't make an MP3?
MCK only recently figured out Twitter wasn't just for teenagers. He may not know what an mp3 is, but if he does, he probably wouldn't want his messages circulating because he couldn't delete them at will like he has done in the past to some of his own blog posts. He's a piece of work that's for sure.
The reason they don't record their messages to be seen on the internet or whatever, is probably because most people listening to preaching like the way they preach in Graham, screaming, yelling, hell and brimstone, that would scare most people off, it sure would not make me want to come to their church. It is a rare and different way that they preach out there. Not at all mainstream, and they know it.
it'd be easier to record nowadays than it used to be. with all the smartphones and stuff
I guess it would be easy enough to record a service with your smartphone or one of those spy pens that have audio and video. I'm guessing the real reason why they don't record in Graham or at their Conferences is because they don't want anyone to be able to go back and analyze what is said later. Sometimes things are thrown out there in Conferences to gauge a response. This may be to elicit an offering because the Organization has done so much for you or needs to build more dorms, add asphalt, or expand this area here. RWD may throw out numbers of how much is spent here or there or what has been collected, but who knows if they are real or not? Ultra-conservative they take in $1Million a year, outside of rents in Graham that go directly to RWD because remember that he paid for the land at the Bonco compound. He was also the original holder of the 39 acres before it went to NTCC->MCK->NTCC. MCK says its a non-profit, but it's a tax shelter to hide their pecuniary profit.
Other times people are directly called out and openly embarassed in front of 1000+ people with their peers. Also the morning teachings would be used against RWD because he's done everything from plagiarizing recycled self-help books or talking down on ministers for being too stupid to put it together or for their wives for being to lazy and fat. Without the recordings, history can be rewritten and Kekel and other revisionists can spread the word that nothing has changed and the Emperor is still wearing his clothes.
Dude, can Gandy lose some freakin' weight already? Heart attack waiting to happen...I remember him doing something in conference where him and another guy bumped stomachs. They called it a "fat guy handshake"
Well Chief, I'm back from that dismal vacation. We spent a horrible week at a beachside resort in New Smyrna Beach in Florida, listening to the waves and trying not to feel guilty about all the perishing souls. We forced ourselves to dine on fresh seafood over and over again--it was hard to avoid total depression. Saw Doug Allen too; he's just really gone downhill since he left NTCC. I think the devil must be rewarding him, because there are no big judgments to report, and his life appears to be blessed in every way (but we know it's all fake). We commiserated over our shared NTCC-less fate.
Then it got really bad; we flew to Antigua and lived on a yacht for 12 days--that was excruciating. All that sunshine and beauty only reminded me of how empty I am without the org micromanaging my every move. Listened to some sinful steel drum and reggae music live, and it really made me pine for the quartet and its stunning creativity. And the snorkeling was almost intolerable with the clarity of the water and the array of tropical marine life. I took lots of photos to remind me of my folly.
Finally we went to New Orleans and endured Mardi Gras. There were endless parades and music, and all that authentic Cajun food made me yearn for the good old days of ramen noodles.
Now that I'm back I'm having a hard time shaking the resulting funk, but now that I have the internet again, I think I'll go to Mike's blog and the NTCC website and try to cheer myself up.
dont forget kekels ntcc music blog and the vids on their youtube channel.
hard to cheer yourself up when you get alot of 404 errors.
Vic, the reason you had a hard time with the vacation is because you did it all wrong.
you're supposed to say you are going to a city to preach the gospel, when in reality you are going on a vacation.
see how that works ?
kind of like when no one knew where Davis was.... was he in his warm sunny arizona home while we all thought he was out working for God ?
Vic said...
Well Chief, I'm back from that dismal vacation.
Chief said...
Life has been tough for me also Vic. I'll be in a terrible class tomorrow (a career progression move) and the thought of being in any school other than the NTCS in Graham is down right depressing. Oh, I morn for the days when I can be told what my every move will be. If I can only get a good micro-managing like they offer in Graham, my life would be whole again. If I could only be told who I can visit and who can visit me... If I could only be told what job I could work and what hours... If I could only be told what days I could work, I wouldn't have to figure it all out on my own.
Mr. Kekel,
Could my wife and I please be allowed to clean your house and wash your dirty underwear? Please allow us into your home so Tanya can direct us in finding all the dust and grime? If we could just be allowed to clean your toilet, we'd be sure to receive a blessing from GAWD.
Please pass me the offering plate so I can drop in my tithes and offerings. I'm really in need of more money so If I could only be allowed to give you my money, twice that much would be sure to fall from the sky into my back yard. Please Mr. Kekel, allow us to sell our nice house and move to a city like Jackson MS, and live in a low budget apartment complex and send at least half our money to Graham. Then we will be able to place another portion of our money into an escrow account that we won't even have to worry about controlling because we know you'll do that for us. Please let us take up an offering to purchase you guys some more guns, PLEASE?
If you'll allow me to do all this I won't ever talk bad about your church again. Oh and on more thing... When my wife leaves me, could you please send me back to Graham for retraining so I can ask to stand against the wall to be the 15th hard-up brother to talk to one of your single sisters? I need to go at least another 10 years without a women so my life could be whole. I'd like one of those big giant women who you've brainwashed into sitting around and doing nothing but cooking for herself and for me and I want some of that nutritious Kool-Aid rather than the nasty real fruit juice that I'm accustomed to.
Vic, I really need to have my NTCC life back again.
Weeping,
Chief
It's a hard thing to mock Kekel like Elijah mocked the 450 prophets of Baal. I wonder if Kekel is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked? I wonder if Kekel is going to cry aloud and cut himself like the prophets of Baal?
Just a thought.
Cha Chief
Jeff said "I wonder if Kekel is talking, or he is pursuing..."
Jeff, You can believe Michael's out there (Always running his mouth btw), lurking about waiting so he can come get up in your wife's face and show her how BIG and BAD he is. And then when he is exposed for the COWARDICE little WEASEL that he is, he can deny it ever happened because you weren't there to see it.
This blog is so informative, and to think when someone asks if the stuff they read on this blog is true, they are told that it is all not true, so what does this mean, you all sit around here putting your time in because you have nothing better to do. No, you are on this blog because.{I know why Chief is out here}, but the rest of you, its a way of dealing with being used and duped by this so called Christian church. I was told by someone that in Graham, they will tell you if you ask whether or not the stuff on this blog is true, they will tell you a flat out "No". So basically, you are all a bunch of liars with nothing better to do but spend your time on this blog. Highly unlikely, and they do worry that once you leave the NTCC you will come out here and defame them. Let them worry. They have every reason to. How do these people sleep at night. Davis, Kekel, Kinson, I wonder. Do they have no conscience. Apparently not.
Anonymous said...
I know why Chief is out here.
Chief said...
I'll tell you one reason. To show people that RWD and Kekel aren't men of God like they claim to be. That is why I mock them. They remind me of the seven sons of one Sceva. "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?" Kekel is NOT a man of God. He is a guitar player and the son in law of a rich crook and the husband of a spoiled woman. Knowing everything we know now, it's somewhat hard to understand why people follow him. In a church, I'm only going to follow a man who I truly have reason to believe is a "Godly man". Well Mr. Kekel doesn't fit that description. Anyone can run around and bark out orders. Why now, would people feel the need to ask him permission for anything? That is absurd. There is no way I'm going to ask Kekel or RWD permission to talk to someone, or visit someone or go somewhere or take a job or quit a job. That is not Christianity. The dude is not even Godly! He is one of the prophets of Baal or one of the seven sons of one Sceva. No fear here of that dude.
Pro 29:25 The fear of man bringeth a snare
Don't fear Kekel. Don't give him or RWD anymore respect than they give you. If they want to blast you or bark at you, bark right back. I write like this to give you the courage to stand up to these guys when necessary. Many of you are really wasting your lives in the NTCC. Obedience, Schmedience. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that you are supposed to obey a crook. Not me. I'm calling it like I see it. Kekel and RWD use people and it's just that simple. Jesus and Paul do I know but who is this Kekel and R-Double standard Davis? Who is this henchman Olson. Olson is like Haman in the book of Esther. Haman/Olson the henchman. Haman had the king fooled for a while and Olson had many fooled for a while as well, but he doesn't have me fooled anymore. Olson, Davis, Kekel; three of the seven sons of one Sceva.
Who are the other 4 sons of one Sceva?
Chief
Chief, the only people that seem to be really still in the NTCC are either students, ministers or they live inside the gate in Graham, so they are either in the process of being duped, are being duped and know they are, or are so wrapped up in the NTCC because of living in the Graham compound and they just can't see past maybe moving away renting from a normal landlord and having a normal life. They are most likely only friends with other NTCC people. That means they are shut in there and don't see a way out. It is sad, it really is. You don't need to explain to me why you are out here. It is clear, you genuinely care about making people see the real truth. I only wish I had seen the truth sooner.
Chief, the other 4 sons of Sceva are as follows:
Kinson - (Son-in-law of Johnson) He is a Kekel enabler and Pastor of the church in Graham that worked out some back alley deal to seemingly get promoted after leaving Okinawa with his tail or something else between his legs.
DiFrancesco - (son in law to Ashmore) Not only is he the financial arm of this org, but he's like the bookie in Atlantic City that knows how all the deals are made, where the bodies are burried, how the money gets shuffled and laundered, and he keeps the ledgers for the cops/IRS and the real ledger.
Ashmore - He is the charismatic dynamo that people call on when they need one of those healing services, but in reality he'll preach something from EW Kenyon or AJ Gordon or one of the current Word of Faith teachers, get people to raise their wallets in the air for a blessing and to come forward for healing while his wife talks about her problems, pills and other people.
Jones - The ever faithful and studious black man that stayed through the Denis debacle that lives in this belief that he will be rewarded by RWD and Kekel in the sweet by and by, while they look at him more as an Uncle Tom or "house nigga". He helps pull in the blacks when he comes to town and makes NTCC blacks ministers more complicit.
I don't mention Johnson because he's a broke hipped old guy that waited in the shadows of RWD. He definitely knows what goes on in the background, but he's not as integral to the next chapter of NTCC, but will probably die soon and be heralded as one NTCC's great heroes and lauded as someone who was completely faithful to RWD and Kekel. NTCC 2.0 - "Revise, Recycle, Re-educate"
Anonymous said...
Ashmore - He is the charismatic dynamo that people call on when they need one of those healing services, but in reality he'll preach something from EW Kenyon or AJ Gordon or one of the current Word of Faith teachers, get people to raise their wallets in the air for a blessing
Chief said...
That's Ashmore for sure. He came to the church in Columbus Ga and had a brother hold his wallet in the air. I was there and saw if for myself. For you to have mentioned that, he must do it the time cause he sure did it while he was in Columbus.
You have a very interesting take on all these guys. Your description of these guys is right on the money. I've re-read your statement over a few times and I find it quite intriguing. Well there you go; the seven sons of one Sceva. Davis, Kekel, Olson, Difrancesco, Ashmore, Kinson and last but not least, Jones: (the guy who only got promoted cause Denis bailed out). All he wanted was a bone.
I would have picked the same 4 in addition to the 3 that I'd already named. Very cool indeed.
Chief
I just read your statement again; Amazing. Something so simple is so interesting to me. I don't know who you are Anonymous but for all it's worth, I'd buy you dinner for that one. If you are ever in my neck of the woods, call me and it's a done deal. I read this blog daily and your post was as good as it gets.
Check it out people: If you truly want to know or understand how certain NTCC leaders operate, read Anon's statement carefully. Very concise.
Sincerely,
Chief
Jeff said "You have a very interesting take on all these guys. Your description of these guys is right on the money."
Jeff you beat me to the punch on this because as I read anons post that is exactly what i was thinking.
Anon, whoever you are, you nailed it.
Chief - thanks for the kind words and I'd never refuse a free steak unless you're RWD and want to hold it over my head for years on end. I've read enough to know you're not like that, so if I'm ever down in the deep South I'll take you up on that offer. Here's something recently I read when studying Acts. I'm not convinced that Sceva was the chief priest's name because the Jews kept meticulous records and I don't think it's in there. He may have been a head of one of the families within the tribe of Levi.
"Sceva" is a Hellenized version of the Latin word scaeva (Greek "Skeua" - Strongs 4630 - has vessel and the Exhaustive one has left-handed) meaning "left-handed" and by extension, "sinister" and "untrustworthy". Lewis & Short's Latin Dictionary also gives the classical meaning of "perverse" or "ominous". Maybe the name is used in reference to Caiaphas or their version of an Assistant General Overseer for that reason (multiple chiefs priests / 1 high priest), so maybe the real Sceva is RWD and his 7 sons are his spiritual progeny of the 6 we mentioned plus Johnson. So one day the snakeoil salesmen get found out and the demons say - "Jesus I know and Paul I know, but who are these guys?"
MDR - you are a gentlemen and a scholar. Thanks for all the insight you've given on the inner workings within the belly of the Beast.
I found this saying on a google search and posted it on Facebook along with this comment written to a friend:
"Don't be ashamed of your failure. Those who have been there will understand you. Those who don't have not lived yet, and are in no position to criticize you".
I have a truck driving friend that I talk to on the phone at times. We both use hands free headsets, but sometimes I'll make a mistake or he will make a mistake while driving. I'm hard on myself in that I will say, "I can't believe I did that, that was so stupid" and I'll beat myself over the head for it. Usually it's something like missing an exit or a turn. My friend always says, "If you don't miss a turn, than you haven't been a truck driver for very long".
And that's how life is. If you don't make a mistake, you haven't been living in the real world very long. The ntcc is a world where mistakes were not tolerated and there was no room for error. Forgiveness was no where to be found and when you can't tolerate your own short-comings, it makes it hard to be forgiving of others. When you surround yourself with people that will lift you up instead of tear you down, you find that you are in good company and you have a support system made up of people that believe in you. This is what true Christianity is supposed to be like.
We were taught in the ntcc that sin was to be non-existent in a Christians life. A good Christian in the ntcc is one that walks around with that holier than thou attitude and an heir of scumbag entitlement that Kekel and so many others exude because that is what they teach, and that is the example we had of what Christianity was all about. We couldn't forgive ourselves because we were under the impression that perfection was expected of us and we expected it out of those around us. It doesn't have to be that way and it was not meant to be that way. We just happened upon a deviant group of manipulative, money grubbing, self appointed blow hard preachers that used us to build a small financial empire.
DnA
Anon wrote...
Chief - thanks for the kind words and I'd never refuse a free steak
Chief said...
And a free steak it will be if you are ever down this way. My number is posted all over this blog. All you have to do is call me if you are ever around the Columbus, Ft. Benning area. Take care.
Chief
Kinson is a enabler, he would do anything to protect the NTCC reprobate. I cannot trust him as far as I can throw him. He is no different than the rest of them.
Anonymous said...
He is no different than the rest of them.
Chief said...
The majority of NTCC ministers are no different. You can't be different if you are loyal to Davis and Kekel. Something similar to this will be the next thread.
Chief
One of the crazy things about Kinson, besides the Okinawan whore house and getting Roland black balled, is that he has been revered as this great teacher among the NTCC Servicemen's Homes and their ministers. Maybe it's because he was an Associate Pastor at Graham, did the Assistant to/General Overseer thing then because Pastor underling to Kekel and was/is teaching in their Seminary. In NTCC, perception equals reality and it's not what you know it's who you know unless what you know can be used against who you know...
The thing about any of these teachers is that they can get their outlines and notes from anywhere on the internet and give you this rehashed version of a book or subject along with anecdotes about themselves or being loyal to the org. Most of them haven't studied beyond their school notes and take those notes as a Gospel message straight from the throneroom. And if they have studied, it's not more than a Dake Study Bible and a Strong's Concordance.
Don't forget the Kinson basically disowned his brother...
"Don't forget the Kinson basically disowned his brother..."
That happened after Chris and I visited him once in Washington. He couldn't act out in person, because his parents were there (the reason for our visit), but a couple weeks later he wrote a scathing letter, accusing Chris of compromise and basically stating that he didn't consider him his brother anymore. Now he tries to cozy up, but has never retracted or apologized for his words, so his current efforts haven't been perceived as being very genuine.
I hate what he's become--he was my close friend, but he's gone over to the dark side. RW got snatched his soul when he was only 17.
I have a fellowship meeting story. When I was pastoring in Fairbanks, Chris Kinson was pastoring in Anchorage. That's 360 miles away, so fellowship meetings weren't very feasible. So we scouted out a little community church in Cantwell, which was the closest inhabited place to midway. It worked out great, and we met once a month. Because we were so thankful to the church who let us use their facilities, we just gave them the offering. Well, that didn't sit well with the powers in Graham when they found out about it; they groused and complained, but since they didn't order us to stop doing it, we didn't. They were so greedy for money that they couldn't stand to see 40 or 50 bucks going to someone else. But we enjoyed ourselves and had some great services.
What exactly is Kinson's role in Graham? Does anyone know what he does there, he is always in town, he seems like the members pastor,? not the bible school or ministers pastor, is this correct?
Vic said...
Because we were so thankful to the church who let us use their facilities, we just gave them the offering. Well, that didn't sit well with the powers in Graham when they found out about it; they groused and complained.
Chief said...
That doesn't surprise me at all. Giving the offering to the keepers of that church was the decent thing to do. Of course Davis and Kekel regularly don't do the decent thing. Vic, when I read your statement this was the scripture that came to mind.
James 5:4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
Those NTCC crooks would have had no problem keeping that money back from the owners of that church. Davis and Kekel are two seriously greedy dudes. You did the right thing Vic and of course you don't need me to tell you that but you did do the right thing. Davis regularly doesn't do the right thing. The NTCC in general regularly doesn't do the right or decent thing. I've been saying this for four years now but guys like Kekel and Davis don't know the first thing about good decency. They use people all the time.
Chief
Vic said, "Because we were so thankful to the church who let us use their facilities, we just gave them the offering. Well, that didn't sit well with the powers in Graham when they found out about it; they groused and complained."
The thing about the NTCC is that they forget all common decency and etiquette when it comes to money. They would rather have you finagle, lie, and poor mouth to another church group to "save a dollar" while they want you to send it to them. They'll damn you to Hell for not giving them your tithe money because allegedly (eventhough they've already condemned you) you're a God-robber. Then if they start asking direct questions and you say how that you used that to help a family or to get clothes for someone that lost a job or for someone who is unable to help themselves because of a disability or whatever the reason, you're made to look like an idiot or gullible doup the next time you're around them.
So I should give my money to an organization where I don't know where its going (what is NTCC's mission and when do they ever give back to others?), where I don't see any fruit being produced, and where there is no transparency or accountability (we were told the tithe is the Pastor's to do with however he wants)?
So I should give you hundreds of dollars a month instead of putting it into a retirement account (Richest Man in Babylon - George Clason said I should pay myself first) to provide for my family because NTCC will not get any umbrella insurance policy or group retirement for ministers? Save your money and take care of your family.
Jump Around - NTCC Style
Pack it up, pack it in
You betta move preachas cuz
RWD said battle me that's a sin
Gandy has got the snacks up
Jones you'd better back up
Try an play tough, the whole general board will act up
Ashmore says - Get up, stand up, come on, throw your hands up
If you've got the feelin' jump across the ceilin'
Conference is a love fest, someone's talkin' their mess
Kekel, I'll bust 'em in the eye and then I'll take the Beamer home
Steal it, flaunt it, cuz Kekel's shifty
And I got more rhymes than there's cops at a Krispy
Kreme Donuts shop, sure 'nuff I got props from the kids on South Hill
Plus my mom and my pops
I came to get down, I came to get down
So get out yo seats cuz Tanya gets around...
Jump around, jump up and get down
Jump around, jump around
Jump up and get down
Jump up, jump up and get down
"What exactly is Kinson's role in Graham?"
It appears that he fulfills the same role with respect to Mike as Olson does for RW--to prop him up and enable continued depredations against the people. Those two are just pushers--they push the org line no matter what, and do their best to insure that people don't stop drinking the koolaid. RW and Mike get the limelight, but their personal bitch enablers are just as responsible for the damage inflicted on unwary souls. We all looked to old Joe as the example of how to worship RW, and Phil seems to be acting in a similar capacity.
I remember a certain pastor in kc that used to say this phrase whenever he was preaching about being faithful to the org.
"if pastor davis says the sky is purple or blue, I'm gonna believe him, because he is the man of god"
olson used to say something similar, "If Pastor [davis] says the sky is green, then the sky IS green!"
We know if the sky is green, a tornado is headed your way ~
For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: ~ Hosea 8:7p
Steakboy said...
Jump Around - NTCC Style
Chief said...
Bravo, bravo. That was great. I enjoyed your rhyme. Of course you would have had to hear that song before to appreciate it. I got a good laugh out of that one.
Chief
Anonymous quoted someone saying...
"if pastor davis says the sky is purple or blue, I'm gonna believe him, because he is the man of god"
Chief said...
Unfortunately I used to feel the same way about old R-Doublestandard Davis. Not anymore. He's not a man of God, he is a con-artist who is pretty good at it; no more, no less. Davis is a crook.
Chief
olson used to say that as well.
"brothers, if pastor davis says the sky is green, then the sky is green !"
and we fell for it !
DOH !
i'll try my hand at an improvised rap
ntcc
oh golly gee
i went for years
and could never see
the money shuffle game
the manip - u - lation
boy was i a sucker
livin' on a plantation
which just reminded me of
"don't push me cuz i'm close to the edge
i'm trying not to lose my head
it's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder how i keep from goin' under"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjLHrhLVwzs
Anonymous said...
I'll try my hand at an improvised rap
Chief said...
That was another good one. You showed your age with that one. Some NTCC leaders would say, "See, they are rapping on Chief's blog and that is proof as to the degree that they've given themselves over to sin."
Those NTCC leaders are so twisted in their minds. They strain at a gnat while simultaneously showing no common decency whatsoever. They will judge you for putting a rhyme together while at the same time trying to break up someone's marriage. They are the biggest bunch of hypocrites that I've ever known in my life.
Chief
"if pastor davis says the sky is purple or blue, I'm gonna believe him, because he is the man of god"
What a crock! They win us by thier preaching, they get us to love them and place them on a pedestal and then they pull this type of line out of thier backside. It still sickens me to think that I got all cought up in this mess. One preacher said this behind the pulpit, "If I tell you to smash up this piano, you better do it, no questions asked".
That, I think is where we lost our God given brain. It didn't matter that the red flag came up. We just knew to follow this so called leader or get preached at. AH!!
Chief said "They are the biggest bunch of hypocrites that I've ever known in my life."
Chief, Now tell us what you really think of them.
Anonymous - "brothers, if pastor davis says the sky is green, then the sky is green !"
The NTCC is like living in a delusional medicated state all of the time where you walk around with this goofy grin and stupor. The unwritten code to words like this is that they want you to not question the alternate reality that is forced upon you by the leadership of their cult.
1) They use to their advantage the values instilled by the military for "instant and unquestioning obedience" to orders and twist it against you so that you never question their supposed position over you. Instant obedience to orders is a discipline mainly found where you are in a life or death situation, especially in combat. They'll damn you for not "obeying them that have the rule over you" (Heb 13:17) but when you ask about how they take care of the flock, you are met with instant questions and condemnatory remarks. They take this one scripture to mean that they must give an account, so in order for them not to have a bad report you must comply with all of what I ask to include things that are factually wrong. Biblically they shouldn't "Lord over God's heritage" (1 Pet 5:3) and we should be teachable because we each will give an account (Rom 14:11-12 / Matt 12:36)
2) Next, the second value that they use against you is the "exclusiveness" of NTCC as if you are a part of an elite group of Christians that have received the greatest revelation since the Apostles and you are able to hear exactly what God wants from your life from your pastor and other leadership you are exposed to in the journey as you get closer to the inner sanctums of NTCC. It is almost comparable to ascending degrees with the Masons but without Nicolas Cage trying to look for artifacts.
3) The last value is the members "acceptance" - where they have absorbed their new reality that has been generated by NTCC leadership and planted within their minds and accept it as a fact. RWD and others have called it "being weak-minded" and it is the impressionable and gullible Servicemember that is looking to be accepted and loved, to be a part of a group with ideals and a worthy cause, and that is doing its part to help others and the world at large.
So they preyed on our desires, found us in moments of weakness and said the words we like to hear? Read 1 James 5:1-6
Right on, SteakBoy--I see you took the red pill too. I was thinking about some of the ridiculous control freak policies they have, and remembered something I'd like to relate before it's lost to posterity. Jim Johnson came up to Fairbanks to spy out the land at one point, and after Sunday morning services, criticized the fact that I had committed the audacious act of leading three (rather than the apparently obligatory two) congregational songs (I might have sung even more, except that three songs just about exhausts the NTCC repertoire). Even then it kind of dumbfounded me, and I replied that I wasn't aware that we were bound by tradition. That made him spit and sputter a little, but he certainly didn't back down.
NTCC reminds me of the federal government, trying to micromanage everything people do. If you haven't seen this John Stossel special, it's definitely worth your time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBiJB8YuDBQ
I just realized that my red pill allusion might not be familiar to any recent (and culturally deprived) departees from NTCC. It's from the first Matrix film, which I highly recommend to all who have experienced NTCC mind control--it's filled with enlightening parallels. The line in the movie goes like this:
"You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." -Morpheus
Let me exhort those on the fence to gird themselves and choose the red pill. It appears that the lifers already made their choice, and are waking up in their beds believing what they want to believe--that RW isn't just a pathetic man-behind-the-curtain, but a great apostle and modern day Moses. If that were true, I would immediately lose all respect for God and his wisdom. RW's a charlatan and a scoundrel, and should be regarded as such.
Vic - Thanks for the youtube link. I watched it all in one sitting. In bible school, they put out a new rule that we had to go straight home after classes. That meant not even getting gas if you were on "E". One teacher said, "If you are on "E" then you better pray". What a crock!!
I think they had all those b s rules so nobody would see them coming out of the bars!
We threw our brains in the toilet.
HOw stupid that is. Even if you're on E!
I remember also the time when somebody was going to a conference and for some reason didn't get the report to a mail box, it was a monday and we were going around an unknown city, trying to find a mailbox because that report had to be "in" before 12 that monday night.
I saw lots of ministers to the point of hysterics because of that rule!
Why do people send in those reports? NTCC doesn't give any account of the money or people. Why should the local churches? If it's good for the goose...
Not even stop if you are on e? You better believe that is a crock. I would thoroughly enjoy telling those rule maker's to kiss my backside. Don't let your automobile run out of gas for those nuts. If fact, don't follow any of their stupid rules. They have no right to tell you who can visit you or how many kids can attend your childs birthday party or where your mail should be sent.
Anonymous said...
I think they had all those b s rules so nobody would see them coming out of the bars!
or the whore houses!
All ministers were required to send a weekly report no later than 12 pm on monday. It had to be in that mailbox otherwise you are not being faithful or like they said: if you cannot be trusted in the little things how can you be trusted with big things.
But I remember in conferences the ministers were reprimanded because their reports were not mailed accordingly, because they would check the post office seal!
I remember thinking: "really? the people in the office check the seal of when that letter was sent?
REminded me of "You just entered the twilight zone!
Yeah, I remember hitting the street to find a mailbox before midnight for that idiotic report too. If they really wanted the things in a timely way, the could have permitted us to email them in. But no, we had to act like we still lived in the 50s with our manual typewriters and snail mail. Now they're trying to look all modern, but they can't even update their clunky website.
Speaking of those stupid reports, it is revealing that the only things on it were numbers--numbers of people, and numbers of dollars. They only cared about the latter, but recognized that it stems from the former. Bucks and bodies were all that mattered in their eyes. Consistent with their anti-children (with one notable exception) attitude, only adults counted. They knew kids wouldn't be contributing much in the way of tithes and offerings.
Chief, I'm glad I fished my brain back out of the toilet. It had a long sixteen year break, so at least it's not worn out. Functions pretty well once the atrophy got worked out. Unfortunately, some people stay so long fossilization sets in.
Vic said...
Unfortunately, some people stay so long fossilization sets in.
Chief said...
Unfortunately you are right Vic. The Bible describes this occurrence.
1Tim 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron
I know of no better way to describe the fossilization process. Their conscience gets cooked and they can no longer pull their head out of the toilet. I'm not being overly dramatic here either. When you stay in the NTCC for "too" long you lose the ability to discern right from wrong or you simply get to a place where you no longer care. I'm not talking salvation vs not being saved here, I'm talking about possessing good, common decency. You know, the kind of every day decency that even quote, "sinners" possess.
Example... Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Old timers in the NTCC don't possess this. They do not do these things. They lack common decency, considerations for others, simple compassion for others and a good nature. They've become outright nasty, extremely inconsiderate, they have little or no compassion but rather they are overly judgmental, and they don't know the first thing about good decency. There conscience is seared, plain and simple. Right here on this blog I've given example after example after example justifying and validating my hypothesis.
Chief
Another value that I believe NTCC exploited was the discipline of "cleanliness and orderliness" that is drilled into you during bootcamp and continues throughout your military career and even into civilian life to whatever degree. The pastor always wanted things just so and especially prior to RWD or Overseer coming, there would be multiple cleanings of the Servicemen's Home common and living areas and the church. Anyone that's been through an IG or CG inspection knows what that entails and it is this neurotic obsession that overtakes you that even affects your value as a person if you're not clean or "squared away" enough for the "man of God". So squared away, but full of jealousy, bitterness and strife, and lacking love...
Vic Johanson said...
"Yeah, I remember hitting the street to find a mailbox before midnight for that idiotic report too. "
In my mailbox quests, I remember pushing away the thought - "Hey the mail won't even be picked up by tomorrow afternoon". The lack of common sense in NTCC is amazing. They want you out of gas on the side of the road or burning rubber at midnight to test your faithfulness and loyalty to their inane and idiotic rules.
The only thing I can think of the "why" the ministers were required to drop the report before midnight on monday was, control.
What else would it be.
It is no wonder that members are leaving at a very large rate from the NTCC church in Graham, they are dropping out all the time. I am speaking of members, I cannot speak for the licensed ministers, or BS students. But Chief, the members are leaving all the time. This blog I am sure is one of the main reasons. Their congregation is shrinking all the time. Before you know it all that might be left is some really brainwashed members, preachers and bs students. Why on earth would people stay in this organization. It is so corrupt. I am sorry it took me so long to find out what was really going on there.
At least you learned!
Anonymous said...
Chief, the members are leaving all the time.
Chief said...
That is good news. And we thought we were lost prior finding the NTCC. As it turns out, we were more lost once we found the NTCC i.e. heading in the wrong direction. If you want life and that more abundantly, you are better off without the NTCC. I believe that the NTCC will not only steal your life but your soul as well. It sure would be a sad day to find that not only did the NTCC steal and control your entire life, but you died and went to hell anyway. From a Biblical stand point I don't believe that guys like Kekel and RWD are even saved.
How do you know when you've passed from death to life?
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Kekel and RWD love themselves. Their works don't indicate that they love the brethren. Their works indicate that they love the almighty dollar and that is it.
1 Tim 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
RWD has regularly taught that his gain is proof of his godliness. I've heard RWD say it in conference. Well 1 Tim 6:5 says different. Why in the world would RWD entertain the brethren purchasing him a $17,500 Rolex. Throwing out hints that he really wanted the "presidential model"? That is loving the brethren? Gaining a Rolex at the expense of a bunch of struggling brothers is godliness? That is not loving the brethren, that is using the brethren. The Kekel's do the same thing by having people come over to clean their house. If I ever tried to do that with one of my soldiers, I'd be considered the worst leader on the planet even if I paid them. I'd get relieved. My current boss wouldn't allow me to go clean his house under ANY circumstances for pay or not for pay. You don't do that with your church members. I don't think everyone understands how much of a misuse of authority it is to have your church members come to clean your house? From a leadership standpoint, that practice is totally unethical.
I'm going to tell folks once again. If my boss found out that I had encouraged just one of my subordinates to come clean my house, he have me relieved; PERIOD. That is using people, it's an abuse of authority and it's just plain sorry.
Chief
Anonymous said:
"But Chief, the members are leaving all the time. This blog I am sure is one of the main reasons. Their congregation is shrinking all the time."
DnA said:
This is a good thing and I agree with this assessment. When I first started reading this blog, it was the first opposing voice that I heard and listened to. Ange tried to share a little with me but my first inclination was to disregard anything that was contrary to the ntcc. At first my mind rejected much of what was being shared. Chief, your common sense approach to revealing the true nature of the ntcc leadership was very hard to ignore. Add that to all the contributions that others had left, I could no longer deny the obvious. There were just too many inconsistencies in their doctrine and the ntcc leadership walked contrary to much of what we knew was in the bible.
This blog helps so many people in so many ways. It is very hard to follow this blog and not see the hypocrisy that exists in the ntcc leadership. When you realize that the ntcc rules and laws are not biblical and are opposite to what Jesus taught it gives hope to all those that feel trapped by the ntcc.
MDR leaving was huge and I believe many people have followed and the ripple effects are still taking place. When someone leaves and they are not afraid to speak out it helps people that are being controlled to assess their own predicament. The same is true with GS/DS and many others. It gives much credence to the content of this blog when folks that were "heavy hitters" in the ntcc are not afraid to share what they've been through.
I don't know if I've ever said thank you, but I do sincerely appreciate the work you've put into this blog and you've also been a friend, when I've really needed one, Chief. We don't always agree on everything but that's what gives us our individuality and our own identity. When you put all of your trust in a man, and refuse to believe that anything you see or hear could possibly be wrong, that man ends up being like God to you. Davis, Kekel and the ntcc elite are regarded more highly than Jesus because people subject themselves to their system of rules and control even to the point of hurting others.
Mat 18:6 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
DnA
Another fact that you may not be aware, a few years back, I can't recall, there use to be two services on Sunday mornings in Graham, 9:30 and then again at 11:30, well one day it was announced there would only be one service, 10:30 only. That says alot in my mind, at the time, I thought it odd. Now that I look back it is obvious. So many people have left that the the two services where so small, why still have two services? Now the services start at 10:30 and usually go past 12:00 pm. It was very rare for a service to end before 12:00. Also, they started Saturday night services a few years ago in Graham too. They said we went to the bars on Saturday night, why not go to church. Those services where always long. usually past 9:00 pm.
"Another value that I believe NTCC exploited was the discipline of "cleanliness and orderliness"..."
This is a manifestation of RW's germ phobia, which is a sign of his psychological dysfunctionality. Unbalanced people often fixate on hygiene and cleanliness, and RW is an example of that. Study the life of Howard Hughes; he was similarly affected. It's not hard to imagine RW holed up in his mansion with Kleenex boxes on his feet, issuing paranoid orders to his lickspittle subordinates while obsessively chugging Nyquil as he engages in extreme delusions of his own imagined grandeur.
He's a sick mofo.
Vic said "This is a manifestation of RW's germ phobia...He's a sick mofo."
Vic, you ought to see Ashmore around door knob's and such...talk about a sick mofo. He goes though that hand cleaner as fast as a pack of mints.
They're all sick mofo's
Anonymous said..."Vic, you ought to see Ashmore around door knob's and such"
It's amazing to think that Ashmore or RWD ever went to a third world country where they aren't always known for their hygiene. Ashmore would break out the hand sanitizer like it was annointing oil for everything. Alot of the leadership have quirky things about them, whether it was this or how different ministers would immitate the hand gestures of how RWD would put on his glasses or stick the microphone cord in his belt or wear suspenders and a belt together.
Olson and his innumerable food rules within Practical Theology or sounding like Droopy Dog when he talked or preached with his uninspired sermons or his weird phrases people would imitate. Tanya with her "cockroach killer" heels that were extra pointy like the witch that died at the beginning of the Wizard of Oz and dresses that cost more than your mortgage payment that show every curve, bump, lump and cellulite. DiFrancesco would carry his day planner even to the toilet and give you a weird look through his Coke bottle glasses (son is autistic?). Kekel will only let people wash his car that know how to use a polish stone, acts as if he is busy doing who knows what all day and he kind of looks like Nicolas Cage. All in all they act weird and people try to imitate them in order to win their favor and increase their self-esteem.
Steakboy said...
Olson and his innumerable food rules within Practical Theology or sounding like Droopy Dog when he talked or preached with his uninspired sermons or his weird phrases people would imitate. Tanya with her "cockroach killer" heels that were extra pointy like the witch that died at the beginning of the Wizard of Oz and dresses that cost more than your mortgage payment that show every curve, bump, lump and cellulite.
Chief said...
And there you have it again. Olson's messages were some of the most boring I've ever heard. I sometimes wondered if I was the only one who felt that way? That dude would put you to sleep. I've listened to lectures from dudes who taught MS-DOS who kept my attention better than Olson did. Oberhauser was just as bad. And there was your good old tithe and offering money hard at work on Tanya's mortgage payment tight dresses while the rest of the ladies were going to goodwill wearing baggy cloths like RWD advocated. I'd like to eat at a restaurant at a table right next to Olson so I could smack real hard on some cereal while holding my spoon like you hold a machete. I'm so over thinking about impressing dudes like that.
I eat how I eat and I dress how I dress and I'm not even remotely concerned about what those clowns think about me. That group of NTCC guys and gals are the most obnoxious group of people I've every known in my life and I'm not exaggerating. Rules about this, rules about that and all those crazy rules were based explicitly on the idiosyncrasies of RWD aka R-Double Standard, Olson, Ashmore, Kekel the con-artist and the rest of their wacky leadership. I'm telling you people, the NTCC is one seriously twisted organization lead by a bunch of whack jobs. That is not what Jesus, the Bible or Christianity is all about.
Chief
Cheif said "I'd like to eat at a restaurant at a table right next to Olson so I could smack real hard on some cereal while holding my spoon like you hold a machete."
No--ww--Noo--wwww...Bethren, we eat our cereal with our right hand, bringing the spoon to our mouth. And we-we--wee NEVER drink the the milk out of our cereal bowl. That's the way pastor davis does it, that's the way the Holy Ghost does it, that's the way the Father does it, that's the way Jesus does it.
Anonymous said..."No--ww--Noo--wwww...Bethren, we eat our cereal with our right hand, bringing the spoon to our mouth. And we-we--wee NEVER drink the the milk out of our cereal bowl. That's the way pastor davis does it, that's the way the Holy Ghost does it, that's the way the Father does it, that's the way Jesus does it."
Hilarious to think we actually listened to that nugget of Gospel truth straight from the Throneroom of God. I hate to have thought what Olson or RWD-bag thought of Jesus using his hands to break bread at the Last Supper...They would probably have some twisted slant of how back then they had wooden forks and knives or something equally stupid.
Another Olsonism was how you had to stir your cup of coffee when you put sugar in it. You couldn't let the spoon touch the sides or bottom and you couldn't use the same spoon you used for the sugar to stir it. You better have a saucer to set your spoon upon and do not sip or slurp your drinks. You were made to look like a fool out in a restaurant if you didn't follow their NTCC eating etiquette. Ask MDR and others that have spent any length of time with them outside of church and I'm sure they'll confirm it.
Steakboy said...
Another Olsonism was how you had to stir your cup of coffee when you put sugar in it. You couldn't let the spoon touch the sides or bottom and you couldn't use the same spoon you used for the sugar to stir it. You better have a saucer to set your spoon upon and do not sip or slurp your drinks. You were made to look like a fool out in a restaurant if you didn't follow their NTCC eating etiquette. Ask MDR and others that have spent any length of time with them outside of church and I'm sure they'll confirm it.
Chief said...
I'd sit at the table next to Olson and loudly slurp the left over milk from my cereal bowl like a DOG. I wouldn't even pick the bowl up. I'd just slurp it with my tongue. Then I stir my coffee so hard it would sound like a church bell being rung. Then I'd take my spoon and stick it upside down in my mashed potatoes so it looked like a tulip sticking up out of the ground. I'd pile up my mashed potatoes like a dirt mound first so it could hold the spoon.
Their rules don't have jack to do with Christianity. That is just those control mongers trying to turn you into a brainwashed mindless minion. You know there is nothing wrong with good manners but those clowns take it to a level of stupidity with all that nonsense. There ain't nothing wrong with picking up a french fry with your finger, or chicken or letting the spoon hit the cup while stiring your coffee. Yeah I might not pick up the milk bowl and slurp it down in a restaurant (even though I would for Olson) but realistically, how often would you even eat cereal at a restaurant? Probably never. I ate cereal this morning at my house and when all the cereal was gone, I picked up the bowl and drank the milk like you'd drink it out of a cup. If that puts me in hell then I guess that is were I'm heading.
I can tell you for certain that Christianity ain't all about not sucking milk out of a bowl and if it is, (which it ain't) you can have it. That NONSENSE never got anyone closer to their creator.
Here is what that stuff reminds me of. An old stuck up, head up their butt, high and mighty, conceited bunch of booshie nobles who act like they came from Buckingham palace while eating dinner with the queen and the prince. Am I missing something or does anyone get the impression from the Gospels that Jesus was concerned with all that stuff?
Chief
Steakboy said "Ask MDR and others that have spent any length of time with them outside of church and I'm sure they'll confirm it."
Yeah, buddy. I can chime in all right. After fellowship meetings, we would gather together at the local "Barf-fay", which I hated, btw, and sit down to eat as RWD watched some of the ministers trying so desperately to imitate Olson as they ate their food, as if that was some spiritual gauge by which they were accepted in the beloved or not.
I remember siting down one time with RWD, and Olson was present too, and I ordered a burger and fries. When that "puppy" got to our table, I picked it up with my hands and devoured it. RWD raised an eyebrow over it, but I didn't care. French fries and burgers are meant to be eaten with your FINGERS.
On another occasion, while living in the Northwest, we had the Kekels over for dinner and my wife made homemade pizza. Michael commenced to eating his pizza with a fork in one hand and bringing the pizza to his mouth with the other hand. I thought, How stupid does it get? Just pick up the pizza and enjoy it. He followed through with the comment that most people's homemade pizza isn't good, but this was actually good. Yeah, well, you know, that's the way it is. My wife is a fabulous cook. I didn't get this big eating ramen.
mdr
MDR said...
Yeah, well, you know, that's the way it is. My wife is a fabulous cook. I didn't get this big eating ramen.
Chief said...
Ha, ha. But the kool-aid with pounds of sugar like we got in the serviceman's home didn't help Bro. Man that is crazy, people running around worried about how they eat food for fear of RWD and Olson's judgment. Pick that stuff up with your fingers and stop being a kiss-up. There ain't nothing wrong with eating fries, chicken, pizza and ribs with your fingers. Same with those old greasy chicken nuggets. Pick em up with your fingers and dip em in some sauce and gobble em down. Stick a fry in top of one while you're at it and make a nugget and fry sandwich; they are good. Don't forget to get a little sauce on your fingers so you can lick it off. If you run into some gristle just spit it out on your plate right in front of Olson and then ask him what to do with it. I have no respect for those guys and that is why I mock them.
That garbage has NOTHING to do with spirituality or Christianity. What do you think they did in the Gospels? They broke apart the fishes and the loaves with their fingers and hands or folks simply snatched em right out of the basket. Jesus could care less about that stuff. He looks at your heart and how greedy you are and RWD and Kekel are two greedy dudes. It's all about the money with them.
Chief
"...and he kind of looks like Nicolas Cage..."
Ha--I used to live with Mike, and the first time I saw Nicolas Cage on screen (well after we left the org, anturally), I thought he was almost a dead ringer.
Cage is probably more spiritual, though.
Vic said..."Ha--I used to live with Mike, and the first time I saw Nicolas Cage on screen (well after we left the org, anturally), I thought he was almost a dead ringer."
Poofy face, lazy eyes, bad hairline and hair, has anger issues and everything is a conspiracy like in National Treasures I & II. Also one of them is a vampire...
MDR said..."Yeah, buddy. I can chime in all right. After fellowship meetings, we would gather together at the local "Barf-fay", which I hated, btw, and sit down to eat as RWD watched some of the ministers trying so desperately to imitate Olson as they ate their food, as if that was some spiritual gauge by which they were accepted in the beloved or not."
It is amazing the level of stupidity we sunk to in order to imitate someone who himself is a cheap imitation of RWD-bag, who is an imitation of Robert Duvall's character in "The Apostle" or some huckster traveling tent preacher/snake-oil salesman. MDR is right about the "Barf-fay" as he puts it and everyone would crowd in to partake of some mediocre bland food that is overpriced just to sit around and be looked up and down by the women (come on now ladies) or to sit as close as you could to the "men of Gawd" so you could get the crumbs that fall from the Master's table.
Oh and what crumbs they were, everything from how stupid you were because you couldn't get people to come to your church, to how stupid you were because you don't have enough money, to how stupid you were and that your wife is the only woman that would have you so she must be stupid too.
Another thing was he would make crude jokes about sex or say his reason for not really wanting basements in churches was because one time a minister had sex with a lady in one and was in his words "crackin her over the table". He'd also insinuate how your wife would leave you because you couldn't perform in bed like she wanted to, as if he is the epitome of the male libido. As he sat their smuggly, seeing you write down his every word and beat yourself up mentally for not being able to perform what you were told to do in your life or be the person they expected you to be. So is anyone else sick of this? Let the REVOLUTION begin...
Steakboy said "So is anyone else sick of this? Let the REVOLUTION begin..."
Great take, Steakboy. Something that I noticed the last few years that I participated in conferences was that RWD would open the floor up for those stupid questions. I often thought that the only reason he did that was because of his lack of substance or he just didn't have anything new to plagiarize. I must say though that the conferences used to be really good, I mean good preaching and teaching, but then it just got to be RWD turning his dogs on us. The last few years we would leave the camp saying we wished we had stayed home.
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