The New Testament Christian Church can seriously waste your hard earned money. When my family started attending the NTCC in Columbus, Ga, only a few brothers lived in a small serviceman's home. That house was plenty ample considering the small number of brothers who lived there. I thought it was a nice home and I expressed that openly but sister Hunt immediately saw the need to correct me by suggesting that they needed a larger, nicer serviceman's home. I disagreed but I was told that I just didn't understand. Denis who was a visiting overseer and still in the NTCC at the time, convinced Hunt that together, they should go out and look for a larger serviceman's home and they found one. Of course Hunt, who had delusions of grandeur, bought of on that notion hook line and sinker. At the time, Denis only had the split in mind but nevertheless, it didn't financially make sense to move only a few brothers (including one who was leaving soon) into what would be a four bedroom house with a swimming pool in the back yard, two large living rooms, a huge dinning room, spacious kitchen, and a large enclosed back family room. Of course rent was considerably higher than the smaller house they moved out of.
After a very short period of time, there were no brothers living in the home. Then they'd get one here and one there for brief periods of time but for the most part the home stayed absolutely empty other than the pastor and his wife. Then Oberhauser took over as pastor and he never had any success at all getting the home occupied with brothers. From a business and a spiritual standpoint, he was a complete failure. So for all intensive purposes, (with very few exceptions) the large home stayed empty from the beginning of 2004 - 2008. During that time the air conditioning unit either didn't work or didn't work effectively. Oberhauser didn't even keep the unit on and that home would get uncomfortably warm. One time L.D. Jones showed up and insisted that Oberhauser turn the AC on because we were in there and it was hot.
Well a few years into that whole debacle, I came to the realization that the NTCC was doing no more than wasting our hard earned money on an excessively large home that only Oberhauser and his wife lived in. They also had to spend money to keep the pool up that of course wasn't even used. I called up Oberhauser and asked why he didn't just move out of that home because it was obviously a money pit and Oberhauser always gave excuses why that couldn't happen. Of course Oberhauser and the NTCC leadership wasn't too worried about it because it wasn't directly their money that was being wasted on that house, it was OURS!!!!! Oberhauser didn't have a job. So during the years of 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, and part of 2008, our tithe and offering money was flushed straight down the toilet, both figuratively and literally, every time Oberhauser and his wife took a dump in that large unnecessary money pit of a house.
The other day MDR told me that he was wasting thousands of dollars monthly, when he first got to Japan because what was explained to him to be a self sustaining church was anything but that when he arrived. MDR was not the only NTCC pastor who told me he was lied to in that regard. Other NTCC pastors have said that they were lied to by RWD and told that they were going somewhere to take over a monetarily "self sustaining" church and when they arrived, there was hardly anyone in church or in the home. In some cases even five people or less and as a result the pastor had to immediately find a job just to pay the rent. MDR can expound on this a whole lot better than I can.
The moral of the story: RWD the dupester and Kekel the con-artist will tell you that you shouldn't spend money and you are broke because you do, but that is anything but the truth. RWD will teach you every trick in the book on how to save money, not run up credit card dept, not finance cars and that is all good advice. At the same time RWD will motivate pastors to waste every dime that comes into the church on a money pit home like the one in Columbus Georgia and RWD doesn't have a problem with that because he is not the one "directly" paying the rent. Indirectly he is, but he doesn't seem to have a problem with that when the cold hard cash isn't coming directly out of his own pocket.
Chief
93 comments:
Sounds to me like Oberhauser just wanted a bigger better house, and the congregation can pay for it, why did he not have a job? Don't most preachers living in the USA have jobs to make ends meet?
That wasn't it. Hunt is the one who got the house and Oberhauser took over quite a while after. When Oberhauser took over from Hunt, there was a fairly good number of people in the congregation. Most however were civilians and as a result, even though there was a decent amount of money coming into the church, the home was either empty or very close to it throughout Oberhauser's tenure and for that matter while Hunt was there as well. Toward the end of Oberhauser's stay, he'd run everyone off and the church was down to about 6 or 7 people. He started out with around 60 or more on any given Sunday.
Oh, he wanted people to move into the home but he just didn't have the leadership or preaching skills to make it happen. He was a very boring orator to say the least.
Now of course Oberhauser wasn't in any big hurry to move out because we were the ones paying the rent. Oberhauser didn't work because he didn't want to or didn't have to and most likely a combination of the two. He had a place to live and the Org paid him a measly $150 a week. The tithe I paid alone was considerable. The whole thing was a sorry setup.
Chief
Sounds like a Parkland church in Washington, the congregation seemed to dwindle then the whole congregation that was left moved to the Graham church. The Teeman's where there before that closure, I often wonder what happened to close out the Parkland church. I think I read on this blog that the Parkland congregation seemed more "spiritual" than the Graham church so they closed it. Why?
if ntcc is supposed to be great leaders of God, why dont they work on a job like paul the apostle did ?
doug h.
"if ntcc is supposed to be great leaders of God, why dont they work on a job..."
The leadership already has a full time job manipulating and deceiving people, finding fault, and riding herd on the sheep.
RW always taught that the secret to wealth is OPM--Other Peoples' Money. In his case, we were the Other People, and he used us to get his. He's a bonafide sociopath.
Good insights into what happens at one of the NTCC Servicemen's Homes and I'm sure that is the case with alot of them. It would be interesting to get MDR's take on it and he could probably give a rough estimate of what was happening financially at the different homes that he's been at. I know he blew the lid off what happened with Killeen's escrow fund and I'm sure he could tell more details of other places. Between what he shared and the Rickard's shared awhile back, no one should trust what NTCC does with their "escrow accounts". NTCC explanations about it are vague and do more to cover up the truth than anything.
So the church takes in tithes and offerings and most of the time the pastor is using the tithe as he wants, especially if he is not working on a job. He may get a stipend from the organization like you mention, but anyone can "cook the books" and tell you something to make it appear that they didn't get alot. I definitely don't think Oberhauser or others are going hungry, especially ones like Gandy. The house, utilities, and if large enough, the transportation are all paid for.
The brothers that stay in the home pay a "home fee" or rent on top of their tithes and offerings. Most will volunteer or at least it's implied to clean and maintain or fix the homes. Alot of these pastors will pressure them to pay ahead or have things worked out prior to deployments and also want that last big tithe prior to them leaving or being discharged.
Anonymous said,
"... I often wonder what happened to close out the Parkland church."
Parkland and some other Washington churches were closed and the congregations were moved to the Graham mega-chapel to keep the money and numbers funneled into the Graham mega-chapel. kekel's never dug out a work. That church - building, people, and money - was all handed to them on a silver platter.
Chief said "MDR can expound on this a whole lot better than I can."
I definitely can. I will be glad to expand on many of the works we were at. I'm off to work right now though, but more to come later.
Anonymous said...
That church - building, people, and money - was all handed to them on a silver platter.
Chief said...
You better believe it. Like I've said all along; the NTCC is no more than a family owned, family oriented, company business. It's anything but a spiritual body. If the NTCC was so spiritual, why have so many gone "crazy". Yes I mean "crazy". A couple deranged Jordan boys, Moreno, Merz, Fontenot, some other dude who went into the NTCC with a sword and the list could go on and on. The NTCC recruits and breeds a bunch of nuts. You call that a spiritual organization? Really? I've seen more nuts come from the NTCC than any other organization I've EVER known. The NTCC is SICK! A SICKNESS! A PLAGUE! Boy the NTCC is one seriously deranged, demented and degenerate filled organization. The Three Big D's. The org shouldn't be called the NTCC, it should be called the NDDDC. The New Deranged Demented Degenerate Church which breeds nuts.
Chief
Jordan boys? I have not heard of them. What is that all about? There was a incident where a minister brought a gun to the Graham church, and went up to the pulpit and said "I'm preaching today" he apparently is bipolar. That is not crazy, but without meds. anything is possible. Again, what is the Jordan boys situation? I am curious...
Anonymous said,
"There was a incident where a minister brought a gun to the Graham church, and went up to the pulpit and said "I'm preaching today" "
WHAT??? Never heard of that before. When was that? Who did that?
Blaine McAuliffe, according to accounts on the blogs, did bring a sword to church. His wife left comments on kekel's blog thanking mUck. It's weird how ntcc so negatively impacts people and they turn around and thank them for it. Just like the Animal House scene where the frat boy is getting spanked with a wooden paddle and, wincing in pain, proclaims, "Thank you, Sir; may I have another?"
Chief,
This is a good topic. I didn't know the 'pastors' were bilking the flock for more money just so they could pad their own wallets. It's not surprising, though, given the example davis sets, demanding 40% of their paychecks (the tithe from the congregation) plus requiring them to rent buildings that are already bought and paid for, plus commanding them to "take up an offering" for things that should be paid for by the money held in escrow. ntcc is a bunch of crooks! And if you are a ntcc pastor who is not crooked, you are part of the problem for lending your credibility to a corrupt org. Shame on you if you know of these things and continue being a partaker in other men's sins. Your congregations trust you when they give you those offerings. They expect that the money they give for their church building will be spent on their church building. ntcc does not do that. ntcc has gathered those funds under false pretenses. The ntcc big wigs should be in jail for stealing those monies from those churches!
This is the same incident, I heard it was a gun. This is the same man, he is still there. Although you can see they are left alone in the true sense of the word. Why on earth would she and her husband still attend. They are truly shunned. As far as I could see, other than the greeters they where completely left alone. From the pulpit, they have said that mental illness is not of God. A christian should not be depressed or have any other mental illness. I bet there is a bunch of people depressed and won't get help for themselves because of this kind of preaching. That is Graham NTCC for you.
a side note: They put up signs, no firearms allowed on the Graham campus.
You know, you don't put your money in a bank and just forget about it. You check the account balance and make sure the money is doing what you expect.
The congregations should do the same with the money they give to the ntcc. The congregations should demand account statements of how much money goes in and out and where the money goes.
It's just good stewardship. And honest men don't mind providing proof of where the money is going.
Next time ntcc tries to give you some snow job answer, ask yourself, "What are they hiding?" Ask the minister, "What are they hiding?" Be a good steward and know where it goes!
Anonymous said,
"From the pulpit, they have said that mental illness is not of God. A christian should not be depressed or have any other mental illness. I bet there is a bunch of people depressed and won't get help for themselves because of this kind of preaching. That is Graham NTCC for you. "
DnA say,
That is what we are talking about. Not only does ntcc set up a completely stressful environment, they then turn around and teach people not to get help and blame the people who are ill saying that their sin causes the mental illness. We say that is nuts! ntcc causes the stress. ntcc makes and changes the rules. ntcc tells people not to seek help. ntcc is evil! Applying their logic, if a fella tripped over a board and broke his arm in the fall, ntcc would say, Your sin blinded you to that board. If you had listened to me you would have seen that board and not tripped. Don't go to the Doctor for painkillers or to get that bone set in a cast. Your broken bone is not of God.... blah blah blah.
ntcc is nuts!
Anonymous said,
"They put up signs, no firearms allowed on the Graham campus."
LOL. Who is nuts now? Are they that paranoid? Have they received threats? It wouldn't surprise me, with all the damage they have done to people. Really, though, why would a church need a sign like that? Don't they have faith that God will protect them? LOL That is their way of thinking, "You didn't get healed because you don't have the faith to get healed." Sick. Sick. Sick.
Anonymous asked,
"Jordan boys? I have not heard of them. What is that all about?"
You can learn about one of the Jordan boys here:
Johnny Jordan - Sex Offender
Anonymous asked...
Again, what is the Jordan boys situation? I am curious...
Chief said...
Go to Don and Ange's blog, and you'll find out about one of the Jordan boys right on top. There is a link to Don and Ange's blog on the right column of this blog. Just a couple days ago, I was told by a former NTCC pastor that another Jordan boy had mental issues as well.
As far as the other guy you mentioned, I understood that he brought a sword to church, not a gun, but if I'm mistaken, either applies. You can call it bipolar or whatever you want but tell me why it is, with such a relatively small group of people, why do so many seriously deranged people come from the NTCC? Does the NTCC attract "bipolar" and other physiologically unstable people to their organization who wind up killing, raping, child molesting, and walking into churches with weapons to take over the pulpit?
Merz, was charged with murder, Moreno killed himself and his family, Johnny Jordan was convicted of coercing a child to commit sexual acts, Michael Fontenot was convinced of child rape. All these guys had been in the NTCC and some of them were ministers and some of their psychological issues had been known about by RWD and even with this knowledge, RWD still allowed some of them to serve in official positions within the NTCC organization.
The whole thing is sick. Now you've got Kinson who is the head pastor in Graham and allegations of adultery were made against him as well. I could care less if the guy cheated on his wife, just don't put him a leadership position. I've been told the same about Rev Wright by someone who was very close to him. Another woman claimed that RWD has sex with her before she was married when she was young, and often even after she was married. double-D said that at one time, RWD had to leave town because he'd been accused of committing adultery and some people in his church were VERY unhappy with him to say the least. I'm not making any of this stuff up nor am I exaggerating. Who remembers Mr. Blumenthal? Same story with him. It was written that Mike Kekel had been doing some hanky panky with Tanya when she was still very young before they ever got married. Mike had bragged about it to Vic and when Kekel bosted of it, Tanya was still in her early to mid teens.
The NTCC has a history of this kind of conduct within their ranks but unfortunately it has turned much worse than adultery with Merz, Jordan, Moreno and Fontenot. Like I said, murder, rape, sex crimes against children and murder/suicide. Explain to me why it is that the NTCC has a history of having proportionately, so many people like this coming directly from their ranks? Because the organization is spiritually sick and the org leaders drive many people crazy with their shenanigans. I really believe that.
Chief, You said it!
I think you left out mike marshal. He was in jail too, apparently he shot a police officer in a bank robbery. He was a successful preacher within the ranks of ntcc, I think he was a board member at one time.
I remember hearing people talking in hush voices about it and saying: that happens when you leave God!
It's deranged how ntcc equates leaving the borg with leaving God.
One of the hallmark signs that you are in a cult:
They claim if you leave them you are leaving God.
Anonymous said,
"From the pulpit, they have said that mental illness is not of God. A christian should not be depressed or have any other mental illness. I bet there is a bunch of people depressed and won't get help for themselves because of this kind of preaching. That is Graham NTCC for you."
DnA say,
I can't tell you how many times I heard Davis teach this. Here's what's wrong with it: Davis acts as if this illness is caused by an evil spirit. And what's worse, he condemns the person, saying they are not Christian, and worse, leaves them to suffer in constant condemnation. If Davis really believed a Christian should not be depressed, then he should gather the elders of the church to pray over that afflicted soul.
Maybe if Davis weren't such a son of Sceva, he wouldn't be so afraid that the person with the evil spirit would leap on him and the other six sons of Sceva, the so-called elders of ntcc, and overcome them and prevail and cause them to flee out of the mega-chapel naked and wounded!
But since he does fear, and does not believe, davis condemns these souls, leaving them no hope or help, not even the help a doctor or counselor could give them.
And even if ntcc did try to have a healing service, my guess is that it would be the prayers of the righteous women, children, and church members that come boldly unto the throne of grace, that obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need, securing the blessed healing from the Lord Who heals all our diseases.
But, because the ntcc leaders have proven themselves to be hypocrites, some day, I believe, they too will stand before God in 'that day' proclaiming:
"Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
only to hear the Sorrowful Savior declare:
"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Bible references:
James 5v14,
Hebrews 4v16
Psa 103v3
Luke 4v40
Acts 19v13-16
Matthew 7v22&23
davis' doctrine is so wacky, he sounds like the three miserable comforters of Job who tried to get that righteous man to confess some sin that brought the calamity on his life.
But God rebuked those three men, and Job had to pray for them.
Job didn't sin and cause the calamity to come on him. So the devilish davis doctrine that says a person has sinned and brought that junk on them is wrong, wrong, wrong.
The disciples thought the same thing about the blind man, who was blind from birth... They asked Jesus who had sinned, the man or his parents, that caused the blindness.
Uhm, duh, somebody please explain how a baby can sin in its momma's womb and cause himself or herself to be struck blind as punishment? That is foolish. And the Lord told the disciples "NEITHER" -- neither the baby nor the parents sinned. The blindness happened for the glory of God. That's all. Nobody was to blame.
But ntcc wants to blame you for everything. They want you beaten down and living in constant condemnation for things that aren't even sin - like stopping on the side of the road one day to enjoy looking at some beautiful creatures created by God -say, horses in a pasture...
davis is a devilish hypocrite!
If you're bipolar, take your medicine. Don't listen to that quack, davis. He doesn't know what he is talking about. He does not represent Christ. He's working for that other guy, the devil.
If you had an infection, and the Doctor prescribed antibiotics, you would take them as prescribed: Take all of them, even when you feel better.
Well, bipolar is no different. It is a chemical imbalance that is treatable by taking your medicine, even when you feel better.
Don't let some unqualified hack like Davis stop you from feeling good about yourself! He has never once proven to anyone that he has the degrees he claims to have. We think he is a big fat liar. If he has the degrees, let's see them. Put up or shut up davis, you phony!
Speaking of wasting money...
Can someone please explain why the so-called non-profit ntcc built a mansion valued at $1,100,000 just so davis could live there?
davis supposedly retired from the ntcc back when denis caused the split.
So how come the ntcc is still paying him and building him a mansion and buying his recreational vehicle motor homes so he and verna can put on the big dog and vacation as snowbirds traveling to Arizona in the cold winter and all over creation off of your tithe and sacrifice?
Could somebody please take a crack at explaining that????????
Anonymous said...
I remember hearing people talking in hush voices about it and saying: that happens when you leave God!
Chief said...
There you go. There is another guy. No, the NTCC leadership has it wrong. That is what happens to people when their brains get so scrambled by the NTCC leadership that they can't even think straight anymore. I haven't robbed any banks, or murdered anyone, or raped anyone, and being that I'm writing this message it's obvious that I haven't committed suicide. In fact my life is better than it ever was while I was in the NTCC. I have more time with my family, better vacations (other than con-artist conference) so my brain can get a rest so it doesn't get scrambled like those dudes we referenced earlier and I have CONSIDERABLY MORE money. I have far less dept, nicer stuff, better peace of mind, a far better job, a better boss, far more money coming in, and a better overall life. Does it sound like I'm going crazy because I've "left GAWD"?
My brain might have also gotten scrambled had I stuck around that cult much longer. Dudes in the NTCC can't even think straight and Kekel's one of them and so is RWD. They may own a lot of property and have a ton of money but people who own a lot can be off their rocker also. I've read the stuff that Kekel writes on his blog and I know he's not playing with a full deck. His brain has been warped by the NTCC. He doesn't think normally even by Bible standards. The NTCC has warped his brain and I'm not exaggerating one bit. You can't really see that while you are in the NTCC but when you leave, you can see it plain as day.
The NTCC had a seriously negative effect on all of our brains but some of us somehow managed to get over it and unfortunately, others like Merz, Jordan, Moreno and Fontenot didn't. Not only that, the NTCC advocates recruiting folks who already have mental issues because they are easy targets and that is a fact. They can say they don't advocate that but actions speak louder than words. I lived in one serviceman's home which was full of dudes who weren't really playing with a full deck and I'm not exaggerating one single little bit. They were nice guys and all but you knew they didn't quite have it all upstairs. From this one serviceman's home I'm thinking of 1, 2, 3, and 4 right off the top of my head. From another home I'm thinking of 2 right off the bat. Dudes that just ain't quite all there. Now you scramble their brains even worse with cult doctrine and rules and what do you wind up with? No need to speculate because the proof is in the pudding.
I've never known so many dudes who've come from one organization who've went so far off the deep end. I can't think of anything close. You can say what ever you want but you can't deny that the NTCC breads nuts and I know it for a fact. Hey, I can be weird or nutty sometimes and I know it but the problems come when you are weird or missing some of your marbles and you have no clue and the NTCC recruits those kinds of dudes one right after another. Then they send them to Bible school and what do you wind up with? A nutty minister who's had his brain even scrambled worse by a cult cause he couldn't think straight in the first place, and he has no business being in charge of anyone. Then what happens? He goes off the deep end and the NTCC leadership covers it all up and they've done it time and time again.
Continued below...
I know a guy right now who the last I knew, was in the NTCC in Columbus/Phenix City. This dude absolutely isn't playing with a full deck but the NTCC digs every dime out of him that they can get. He is an easy target because he believes every single thing the NTCC tells him. The last I knew, the guy was incapable of making it on his own. The pastor acted more like his guardian than his pastor while sucking every dime out of him he could get. Then let someone like that wind up leaving the church knowing little more than NTCC cult doctrine and see how he makes out living in the real world? At least before the NTCC, he was taught to make logical real life decisions. The NTCC taught him just the opposite. While in the NTCC, this dude quit a job that he just started that very day because he found a beer cap laying on the floor next to a trash can. Man that means you can't work hardly anywhere if you don't have any marketable skills which he didn't have. Walmart, Target, K-Mart sells beer, a grocery store, virtually all restaurants, gas stations and that is my point. The NTCC scrambled his brain. He wasn't thinking logically from the beginning and after a good dose of the NTCC, he thought even less logically, hence Fontenot, Merz and Jorden. I rest my case. The dude lost touch with reality which he didn't have a very good grasp on from the beginning.
Chief
When I was there, the NTCC in Felts Mills NY had an "in" at the assisted living facility in Watertown, because the mother of one of the Sisters lived there (the Sister having come here from Ft Lewis where she'd met her husband who then got PCS'd here). They would bring in these clearly mentally infirm older residents, and Tithe them to death. "Mom" sometimes couldn't cover the cost of her meds, but woe be her if she missed an offering!
I don't know how many "special offerings" were taken up for the parking lot to get paved, yet it never did. I left in 2008 and still live in the local area. Shocker: That parking lot is still not paved, just gravel as its always been. I've heard that both the Pastor's family and the Rev's have left the area though. No surprise with them getting booted off of post. *whistles innocently*
All right, here we go. When we were presented with the work in Okinawa, RWD said it was flourishing. Well, when we arrived on the island, the work was anything but flourishing. There were some good people there, but they were being leaned upon financially to carry this church.
After the first week, I was thrust into the battle of my life. we assumed the work from Ashmore and in his last church service he petitioned the church for more money, asking the congregation for pledges, which made me feel really awkward. To my surprise, approximately $2,000 came in quickly. You should have seen the threadbare sheets and towels in that home. Prisoners have nicer stuff, but I digress.
I believe that Ashmore took up the pledges because he felt guilty about dumping this money pit of a church on me. I couldn't believe there was such a big home and only three or four brothers lived in it.
The home rent was $2,300/month.
Church rent was $1,140/month.
Utilities for both buildings equaled approx. $1,100.00/month. That's $4,540.00/month.
Now we had to feed some GIs. This is where my wife accomplished many miracles. The brothers shopped at the commissary for us, but how she did it on what little finances we had was truly miraculous, and we always ate pretty well.
There was a car provided for the pastor when we got there, and it was set up that one of the married couples in the church licensed the car through the Air Force base, giving us a "Y" or "Yankee" plate. The "Y" plate was exclusively for military personnel, but it gave us access to every installation on Okinawa. This was and is totally illegal.
Every time I paid the insurance, I felt so awkward going to the brother about it. Married couples are allowed two cars on Okinawa, and they gave up one of their cars for us, not to mention we were engaging in illegal activity, which really could have ruined military careers and gotten the church kicked of the island.
RWD knew about this and encouraged it because his crooked organization preferred not to put up the $3,000.00 a year to provide this work with a legal car.
When we left the island, we had 17 brethren living in the home and $20,000 in the general fund. I was given a 3,000 draw and the rest went to the org. to pay off the debt the church owed for a start-up loan.
Anonymous said..."There was a incident where a minister brought a gun to the Graham church, and went up to the pulpit and said "I'm preaching today" he apparently is bipolar."
I'm not sure if that was exactly what was said, but that was Brother Otto, who is DR's brother / MDR's brother-in-law. From what I understand he has had some long standing emotional and mental issues and even after this incident was later allowed to come back to the church there in Graham. I'm not sure what the NTCC ever did to make him feel accepted or loved in that church, but he probably still attends out of a sense of obligation to them. I do believe that the NTCC capitalized on things that he was going through in order to get him and his mother more closely tied to them in Graham. He had always seemed cold and withdrawn to me, but he may have been going through different things at the time. Hopefully he's gotten a chance to visit MDR and DR and the NTCC hasn't turned him against his own flesh and blood.
Blaine MacAuliffe on the other hand has always seemed like a nut and would be the type to bring a sword to church just because he can. He was the guy that was behind the Stinger messages on this blog awhile back (2009) around when it first started. He had the annoying red / white blog website filled with angry rants and ramblings.
With the information on this blog, it is no wonder any of the people oversees or even in graham are not all suffering from some mental health issues. Lets face it, being poor, run ragged, advised how to live every aspect of your life, look like my grandma {women}, its no wonder there is not some serious meltdowns. The life of these folks sounds tortured and sad to say the very least. When pushed to the limit, people do do strange things. Again, it is preached, depression is not of God, any mental health issues are not of God. So sad.
MDR said..."The "Y" plate was exclusively for military personnel, but it gave us access to every installation on Okinawa. This was and is totally illegal."
Thanks for the insights into the church there in Okinawa. Not knowing it was such a money pit, it had always been described as being like a mansion and that's sad that Ashmore left it in the condition that he did. You would think that their most charismatic preacher would have had it more financially prepared for you to come there and he wouldn't have to beg on his last Sunday service. The prisoner towels was a nice parting gift too.
Didn't awhile back they say that their minister's couldn't go soulwinning on base? As for the Yankee plate, you are absolutely right that is illegal and living in a post-9/11 world you could have faced jail time or at least had it impounded and you detained by the MP's. RWD-bag knowing the situation and it being illegal just goes to show how the NTCC will blur the lines and try to act like the law doesn't apply to them because "They're doing the work of da Lawd".
Did the church pay the brother in order to have him pay the insurance premium? Did the brother add you or your wife to the insurance policy just in case you were in an accident? I doubt that the NTCC would ever cover you under good ole Church Mutual or some other insurance policy, so you would be held liable in the event of an accident.
I highly doubt the NTCC would have paid for any impound fees, court fees or bail to get you out of jail. You probably would have been left having a brother get money out of the General Fund and have him come there to bail you out. Your testimony would be ruined, you'd have no transportation and need to be driven around, and you'd be made fun of the next conference that you went to.
MDR said "...which made me feel really awkward."
Anybody that has ever been in the ministry in the ntcc can relate to this statement. The leadership will make sure that you are put in some very awkward situations.
"Awkward" is right. To stay in NTCC meant that we would have to take advantage of the people...
We were encouraged to take us special offerings, which would be over and beyond what the precious church members were already giving...
We were encouraged to "sell" things to the church members, even though they had basically bought the stuff for us...
and about doing things illegally, you know it's wrong for a serviceman to bring civilians on base to go shopping...
I could not do this, without a guilty conscience. The pastor and his wife before us would give a brother a list of stuff they needed, and he would buy it for them on the base. Um, that is making a lie!!! NTCC is full of lies!!!!
Like I've been saying all along. The NTCC is a crooked organization and anyone who is interested in having a clear conscience will eventually leave.
The NTCC leadership advocates all kinds of crooked activities. Guys like Davis and Kekel can't even be considered saved according to Bible standards. Lying, cheating, taking advantage of people; you call that being saved? Do you think MDR hasn't given an accurate testimony? You got to give it to the man, he came clean! That is quite likely more than you'll ever see come from RWD, Kekel, Tanya or Olson.
That is character and character is something that RWD, Tanya, Kekel and Olson don't have. They don't have a conscience either.
Chief
mdr said: We were given 3,000.00 draw when we left.
Can you imagine! the org. is not dumb. It seems to me that they always have ulterior motives for what they do. No doubt the reeds were moved to another home and those 3 grand were used to save another home from closing!
I wonder if they ever saved any money while in the ntcc.
All in all I think those people are so egotistical that they rather pay for an empty home than admit that it was a failure.
You know chief, in a way you are helping those ministers. Now they can say:
Pastor davis, it is chiefs fault our church is not growing.
All that stuff he writes on his blog is killing us!
Anonymous said...
You know chief, in a way you are helping those ministers. Now they can say: Pastor davis, it is chiefs fault our church is not growing. All that stuff he writes on his blog is killing us!
Chief said...
That is interesting way of looking at it. You are probably not too far off base. In fact, you may be right on. Hey, if throwing my name out there helps them, it's alright with me as as long is this blog is working according to it's intended purpose. There is no need for good people to waste their life in the crooked NTCC. If someone's desire is to serve God, practically any place (as long as it's not another cult) is better than the NTCC.
Chief
It seems like wisdom was no where to be found in the ntcc. The only reason that I can think of that you would live beyond your means like Hunt, Oberhauser and Ashmore and many other ministers is because you are a sucker and you are being played like a fiddle. What you end up with is a few members that are digging deep into their pockets to support an arrogant and flamboyant preacher's lifestyle.
Why does the organization allow this to take place? Why would Davis and Olson and company allow this waste of money to take place? Because the more money that these few members give to support their local preacher, the more money gets sent up to Graham in the form of tithes and offerings. What good does it do to live in a big house with a swimming pool, if you are so broke you can't get the air conditioner fixed and you have to sleep in a pool of sweat and walk around the home dripping with sweat? Are you doing that for God, or are you doing that for man?
This kind of stupidity is encouraged among the ntcc leadership, or allowed to take place because they know that they have trained their ministers well. That local preacher is going to get behind the pulpit, screaming and frothing at the mouth, "If you love Gawd, you will give to his program". I know what I'm talking about because I have been in the pews on the receiving end of this far too many times. "Bless God, I give more than any member of this congregation". "Bless God, if you have a burden for the lost, there is no way you can sit back watch as others sacrifice because we love souls so much."
"When you were a sinner, you didn't have any problem giving your money to the devil". I honestly think that if you were to take all the money you spent in the ntcc, and spend it on riotous living, it would be better spent than giving it all to Dub-head and his band of thieves.
We've all heard it so many times, and responded stupidly. If I'd have saved all the money that I gave to the ntcc, I'd probably be set for life. Instead, Dub-head and his cronies are set for life, because so many of us believed their scam. Have you ever received email from scammers and spammers? Before you open it you usually get a message that says, "Before opening this email, be sure that you know who it's from"? Or something to that effect.
Guess what ntcc'rs, this is your wake up call. You are being taken for a ride. You are being played for fools. Wake up before you give all your money to Dub-head and company. If you think God is going to bless you for giving your money to these creeps, you are doing exactly what they want you to do and what they have trained you to do. You are a puppet on strings being used for whatever little bit of filthy lucre you can send to Graham.
By the way, we love and appreciate you.
Good Morning Chiefster,
If you get a chance read the last few comments on the Rules, rules, rules thread and see what Lizziey Tish wrote about her experiences in the ntcc. Just when you thought that the ntcc had gotten as stupid as it could get, you find out that there are no boundaries to their stupidity.
I don't know about the other NTCC churches but when you leave the Graham church, they will see you and ignore you, look you up and down and maybe say hello, but most of all they JUDGE you as they are taught to do by Davis and the likes of them, because as we all know if you leave the NTCC, you leave God. I have heard Kekel say that he did not say that, I believe that that is a bold faced lie. These folks are some of the most judgmental individuals I have ever come across. I am sorry and embarassed to say I was ever a part of this organizaion. Let them judge me, does the bible not say we should not judge or we will be judged.
Lizziey Tish posted a very valuable testimony on the previous thread (that is if you have children and you actually care about them). Just make sure you click on the thread title, (Rules, Rules, Rules) then scroll all the way to the bottom and in the far right click (Newest), and you'll bring up the her testimony which is one of the last posts. You may want to do that if you are in the NTCC and you have children. It should make you reconsider whether or not to listen to your pastor when he tells you who you should leave your children with.
People, your children should be way more important to you than the crooked NTCC.
Chief
Chief, I cannot see Lizzie Tishes comment under "rules" it will not collapse to show any comments past 200, can you cut and paste it on this thread for us. I am interested in what she said about a situation pertaining to children. There is no way to look at older posts with this thread. Can you fix it too?
if y you haven't seen pimps in the pulpit video type it into the blog search it will be a youtube link. just mentioning it cuz it seems like there are new readers here. they have an offering for this and an offering for that every time the pimp is passing his hat
Try copying and pasting this in your browser's address bar:
http://truestoriesoflifeinthentcc.blogspot.com/2012/03/rules-rules-rules-and-traditions-of-men.html?commentPage=2
For the people who wanted to see the LizzieyTish comment on the Rules, Rules, Rules thread, Chief said,
"This one is getting posted on the front page when the current one has run it's course."
Also, Vic had a great idea fetching the address for folks so they could copy and paste it in the address bar.... Here's that address as a link, which is even easier to use, especially if you are using a cell phone:
LizzieyTish comments on the Rules Thread comment page 2
Chief, I went in another way and now I can see Lizzie Tish's comment. Wow, that is something but it does not surprise me at all. Thats the way they do things. Like I said before, I am ashamed and embarassed to have ever been a part of this church.
Anon said: I am ashamed and embarassed to have ever been a part of this church.
I was ashamed to tell people I was with ntcc before I left, and that had nothing to do with Jeff's blog, but the reputation locally they have created for themselves. Kudos to Jeff for bringing many things out in the open, but ntcc has been slowly self-destructing over a long period of time. I still get uncomfortable if I have to tell people I was with that bunch, and it has nothing to do with being ashamed of Jesus.
Anonymous said,
"...because as we all know if you leave the NTCC, you leave God. I have heard Kekel say that he did not say that..."
They have to save face and create a lie. So now they say that they never said that, and they will teach that they know you can be saved outside of NTCC.
But then I remember him asking, over the pulpit, why someone would want to leave. He said something along the lines of, if you got saved here, why would you leave?...there's something wrong with you. You must want some sin.
Well, it was not NTCC that saved me. It was God that dealt with me, waaaaay b4 NTCC. And God can bring me through w/o NTCC!!!
They scare people from thinking for themselves, scare them from leaving. It's not some sin that I wanted!!! It's that we wanted to be right with God...the NTCC lifestyle forces people to live lies!
They may teach you the Love of God, and yes, we learned many great things...but then when you see them live and do things opposite to what they teach...but yet blast others that are doing it, that's hypocrisy...and I ain't havin' that! I know no church is perfect, but my goodness!!!
Going to a secular college used to be preached against...so many lost out on using their GI Bill...but now NTCC is letting people go to college?! Thanks a lot!
It was taught that having kids would hinder the ministry...so people waited...(they may have chose to wait, but it was to be obedient to the "man of God")...but now many never had kids and never will be able to...but now they can't stop people from having the natural desire to have kids and they are popping up everywhere...Thanks a lot!
It's been taught that the ladies can't have fake fingernails...and then it's said "unless your nails don't grow, then it's ok"...
REALLY!!! I did not know that some people's nails don't grow! So, there's an exception...and then you see a leader's wife with fake fingernails...I guess her nails don't grow? But since I'll be honest, and accept the fact that MY nails grow, I won't get fake fingernails...
All these rules and "policies"...ok, so you have a Bible school and need rules...ok, I get that. And yes, we agreed to obey the rules...so that's on us. I get that too....
But if they are going to lift a rule or policy...don't you think they should let everyone else know? I had to find out through facebook that people were watching dvd's now on their computers. I had to find out through a sister that going iceskating is allowed now. Well, great!...but how many ministers out there still don't know that?
If they are going to have policies, and if they decide to lift those policies, why can't they be the "great" leaders that they try to teach us to be and maybe send a letter out to everyone letting them know?
Put it in the TRUMPET! There's an idea! Make a section called,
"Policies and Doctrine...the difference, and the policies we have lifted",
and tell us all the things we can do now!
But no, they announce it in Graham, "you are allowed to go iceskating! Have some fun! It's more family friendly now!"
...um...can they let the others that aren't in Graham know that? I'm so glad I'm outta that mess!!!
they don't let others know because the bible says they put heavy burdens on people while they don't lift a finger. the rules didn't change out of the kindness of their heart they changed because they are hypocrites and they were caught doing the things they preached against.
network 23-
Anon said: But no, they announce it in Graham, "you are allowed to go iceskating! Have some fun! It's more family friendly now!"
If any church has to announce that it is ok to go ice skating, think about how strange that is.
Why in the world would they tell you you can't go ice skating? What is the reasoning behind that? I was in Graham and never heard that, way out there.. I would think twice about ice skating in a skirt, because think of how cold it is to go ice skating at a rink. It is cold...
Anonymous said....
If they are going to have policies, and if they decide to lift those policies, why can't they be the "great" leaders that they try to teach us to be and maybe send a letter out to everyone letting them know?
Chief said...
Really there is more to it. Those policies or rules were said to have come from God. So if they simply lift them, that would be giving the impression that the rule never came from God in the first place and they don't want that. So what do they do? Lie and say it was never a rule in the first place but rather a "policy" that was up to the discretion of each individual as to whether or not they should have followed it. And the reason all this garbage came out was because of the Kekels.
They knew they'd been caught with double standards so rather than fess up, they lied by claiming that we didn't listen. Many people had a problem with the Kekel's son playing basketball and football in school so what did the Kekels claim? That there had never been any rules against sports in the NTCC. The Kekel's son goes off to a secular Catholic college and what do the Kekels conveniently claim? That we didn't listen and there were never rules against attending secular colleges but after that, when people didn't buy off on the Kekel's sorry excuses, then people were told that Grant simply wasn't saved.
Dude, that is the reason the rules have changed. It's because of Kinson and Kekel deciding to compromise the NTCC's standards and lighten them up and Kekel admitted himself. Here is absolute proof that what I'm saying is accurate.
http://truestoriesoflifeinthentcc.blogspot.com/2011/09/complete-lack-of-wisdom.html
Either copy and paste the URL into your address bar and hit enter or click on the link at the top of this post titled, (How Kekel changed the rules) and it will pull up the thread I'm referencing.
Kekel changed the rules to suit his own needs and so did Kinson and even though RWD made up the rules himself, RWD allowed the rules to be relaxed for his daughter, son in law and grandson's sake.
No there shouldn't be all those rules in the NTCS. There is no reason to stand against the wall or have to ask permission to do virtually anything. That is not the case of a seminary simply having rules, that is the case of RWD, Kekel and Olson being control monger freaks and narcissists.
Chief
Anon said "But no, they announce it in Graham, "you are allowed to go iceskating! Have some fun! It's more family friendly now!"
It's ok to go ice skating because Grant was allowed to go snowboarding the mountains. I'm telling you, most of the rules have changed to accommodate the "Golden Grandson."
Anonymous said...
I would think twice about ice skating in a skirt, because think of how cold it is to go ice skating at a rink. It is cold...
Chief said...
That is why you wear pants just like the wives of NTCC pastors do when they go exercising like running or working out at the Gym. Oh you didn't know that certain wives of NTCC pastors have a history of wearing sweat pants or spandex tight pants? See that is something else that I guess you didn't hear about in Graham? I had two pastors who's wives wore pants specifically for exercising. One NTCC pastor's wife wore them out running or bike riding and the other wore them to Smith Gym right here on good old Ft. Benning, Georgia. Yeah, they say it's ok for a woman to wear pants as long as she using them to get in shape; you didn't know that? I would guess the same would apply to ice skating because that is a form of exercise so put them pants on girl and go have a good time at the skating rink. If anyone in the NTCC says anything to you, say you were exercising just like the pastors wife does at Ft Benning, Georgia.
Things that make you go hmmmmm.
Chief
Chief, you make me laugh. I am so sick of all this can't do this, can't do that. I would see ladies in skirts and runners, walking for exercise, and I am thinking to myself. Do you know how silly and strange you look? Skirts and runners do not go together at all. It looks rediculous. I am out of that mess, but do you know what, even before I left the NTCC when I went walking for exercise, I wore sweat pants. Walking in a skirt is crazy, oh, how about riding a bike with a skirt on. Now that's one to try, rediculous. No wonder there is so many overweight women in the NTCC, doing any kind of exercise is hard when you are in a skirt. Oh, how about playing volleyball in a skirt. Wow, now that is something to see. No thanks.
The bike thing, my husband would tell me, well have you tried bike riding in a skirt? other women do it. Only a man would say that. Not many I am sure. Spare me...
It is crazy and like I said. I've had two NTCC pastors who's wives wore pants to exercise. The NTCC leadership doesn't seem to have too big of a problem with it because one of the women is right here at Ft. Benning, GA and it's been written about on this blog over and over. If the NTCC leadership was that concerned, these folks wouldn't still be over the church in this area. The NTCC leadership makes exceptions to the women working rule and the women can't wear pants rule whenever it suits their agenda.
Well my wife works and we have more financial stability and the NTCC can kiss my butt. The NTCC leadership makes exceptions to the makeup rule and the fingernail and toenail rule as well. There was a picture on the internet of the pastor's wife in Atlanta wearing toe nail and fingernail polish at the same time. I could be wrong about where they were at when the picture was taken, but if I recall correctly, they were down at Universal Studios or maybe Disney world. Where ever they were at, my wife and I saw the picture plain as day with the pastors wife wearing fingernail and toenail. My wife just said that she thinks the picture was taken down in Florida. It was some years ago.
And the makeup rule has been violated by one the head NTCC leaders wives and they claim it is justified because she has something like they call, (rosy cheek syndrome). Point being is that the NTCC leadership and it's pastors have a history of breaking these rules whenever they please but they also have a history of blasting everyone else by claiming that if they break the rules, they'll go to hell.
It's a bunch of hogwash because the nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone is going to hell for wearing makeup, jewelry, pants or fingernail and toenail polish. If folks are going to hell for breaking such rules, they'll have plenty of company from the NTCC leadership and their wives. I could care less what people wear, I just can't stand the hypocrisy.
Chief
Let me tell your Chief, in Graham they are on a very short leash, there is no deviation from the rules in any way in Graham by the preachers wives or seminary students. In Graham it is business as usual. I never have seen any changes as far as dress or makeup or pants for exercise. It just does not happen in Graham. I think they don't want to deal with the wrath of Davis and the likes of him. Even African American womens hair is frowned upon if it is the least bit ethnic in style. The women all run around looking like clones, no sense of style, zip, zero. Oh, unless you are Tanya Keckel or her Mother. Then, you can best believe she will be wearing expensive shoes and Brahmin handbags, this is not jealousy speaking here it is fact. I understand why all the women look the same, they most likely don't want to look nice that would be too "worldly" unless of course you are Tanya. Finances I am sure also play a part. Maybe things are a little more lax in other NTCC churches but not in Graham. No way. No pants for anything. Zero zilcho... If you do, you are not saved.
Anonymous said....
I never have seen any changes as far as dress or makeup or pants for exercise.
Chief said...
Whoever the sister is who has rosy checks wears makeup to cover her rosy checks. It might be Olson's wife or Johnson's wife. I don't recall for certain who it is but a wife of one of those head honchos wears makeup to cover her rosy checks. We know the sports rules were broken and the no wearing shorts rule was broken in Graham because Kekel's son did both while he was there. MDR says the biblical mandated against adultery was broken by Kinson and RWD made Kinson the big cheese pastor up there. We know the no watching movies rule was broken by Kinson and the Kekel's son because that is how watching dvds got introduced to the NTCC.
Oh if any rules are being broken it's by someone in Kinson, Davis or Kekel families. They break whatever rules they want and have a history of doing exactly that. According to a few witnesses, RWD has been messing around with other women for years. That is what double-D wrote and that is what Pam wrote.
Chief
Chief
I want to leave. I want to reclaim my life. I still have an identity...I am not a clone. I know that is why I am having these feelings. I can't just leave. I tried before but I came back because I felt so out place at other Churches. Some were no better than what I left...
I don't think I can do this over night. I have a rather complicated situation. I am thinking of planning my departure and it will take some time. I go to Church and I am alone in a crowd. I am trying to reconnect with God. For awhile I had been going through the motions..not praying alot because deep down I was/ am afraid that God agreed. But lately I am getting back to one on one's with God. I can feel my strength returning.
I am somewhat an independant thinker ( I don't follow alot of their rules and can see that they themselves don't follow a lot of them either!)but all in all this is going to be so hard! BTW This board confirmed alot of what I felt but seeing it written down makes all the difference. I may come ask you all questions from time to time.
Anonymous said..."I want to leave. I want to reclaim my life. I still have an identity...I am not a clone. I know that is why I am having these feelings. I can't just leave. I tried before but I came back because I felt so out place at other Churches. Some were no better than what I left"
The joy of the Lord is supposed to be your strength, not the fear of man which is a snare. If you're afraid to leave, then that itself should be a red flag that something isn't right. I don't know your personal situation (you say "complicated"), but you need to take this time to be aware of what's going on around you.
If you are married, they will try to talk to your spouse on the side in order to create a wedge of distrust by saying you're trying to leave because of sin and because they equate this to abandonment that they can divorce you. So if you are married, you need to be absolutely honest with your spouse and not be afraid of their questioning.
If you don't want to approach it directly, ask them questions about what you are seeing and their thoughts in order to get the lines of communication open. Sometimes God has been dealing with them on the same thing but in our fear of sounding disloyal or of questioning their authority, we don't say anything to each other. Also pray that God opens their eyes to see things that are not spiritual and not healthy as a believer.
If you have children, it's best to first try to get your spouse on board with your decision because they will try to use this against you as if you are holding your children over your spouse's head in order to divide your family. Once you both decide to leave, you need to also be open and honest with your children about your decision, especially if they were actively involved in children's church or have friends from NTCC or whose parents are with NTCC.
Once you decide to leave together, it will get easier as you seek to build an intimate RELATIONSHIP with God; first for yourself, then your spouse, then for your children, and finally for others. Get back to where it's you talking to Jesus like He's there in the room with you and you can feel His presence and have peace of mind again. Some have went from the frying pan and into the fire or from one church to an even stricter one, only to find themselves frustrated. I am sure that God can lead you to a church or group where you won't feel alone (another red flag) and will feel loved and accepted. Don't be afraid to reach out to those on this blog either.
Very good advise from Steakboy. The ntcc is a dictatorship, and they rule with an iron fist. There is no gray areas, there is only black and white. You are either for them or against them. If you are against them in any way, you are against God according to them. If you listen to them long enough, you begin to believe them more than you believe the bible. They have become so arrogantly religious that their actions contradict many of the teachings of Christ, but nobody dares to question them.
If you are having a hard time leaving the ntcc, it's very understandable and there is no denying that you are in a tough spot. Especially if you have a family. If you are married and your spouse is sold out to the ntcc leadership, than you need to find a way to show him or her that the ntcc is contrary to true Christianity, without attacking him or her personally. I say love your spouse unconditionally and show that love as often as possible, at the same time show your spouse that God's love is less hindered outside of the ntcc.
One of the most effective ways to expose hypocrisy is to reveal the hypocrite's own hypocrisy, using their own words. If you can ask questions or point to how the ntcc contradicts the teachings of the bible, maybe that can persuade your spouse to take a closer look. Another angle is that so many good people are leaving or have left the ntcc. They are not leaving for the purpose of "living in sin", they are leaving for the same reasons that so many people left England and came to the New World. They want spiritual freedom. They want to serve God out of love, not fear.
Continued below....
Continued....
The ntcc claims to be a bible believing organization and they always use scripture to justify their standards, but they have to twist that scripture and stretch it to suite their purposes. If they were as cut and dry about the bible as they were about their standards, they would not have so many man made rules.
They call themselves "holiness" but they have given holiness a definition that can not be supported by scriptures without twisting and spinning them to support their controlling doctrine. You can't work your way to heaven and ignore the most important fundamentals that were taught by Jesus. Love your neighbor, do good to the widow, the fatherless and strangers. Help the afflicted and show the fruit of the Spirit in your actions. Show your spouse that you love God by helping others that are in need of help. God would rather have you show the world his love through Charity than to teach a thousand people to wear dresses and get rid of ear rings. Loving people is not inviting them to a church service where they are going to be given an ultimatum to dress a certain way and act a certain way, with hell being pitched as the only alternative.
When Jesus spoke of hell, he was mainly speaking of it to the Pharisees that were walking around with their noses in the air looking down on everybody, just like the ntcc leaders. He would speak of hell to those that wanted to use religion as an out, from following him. But he didn't go around telling people how to dress. Not one time did Jesus ever blast somebody for the clothes they wore, except for the Pharisees, that demanded respect and wore apparel that distinguished them as religious. Do you think that the diamond pinky rings and rolex watches worn by Davis might fit into the category of vanity?
I think that much of the church world and especially the ntcc is so far away from what God really cares about. Everything centers around money being an indicator of spirituality. I used to give a lot to the church and I got praised for it all the time. The money I gave went towards other peoples financial prosperity, but I was too blind to see it.
Larry Travis seems to have a pretty good set of priorities when it comes to money and God. Without getting into specifics and not really knowing too much about him, what I do know is that he provides for his family, and he helps people that can not help themselves. He seems to prosper and enjoy life, he doesn't live like a Quaker but he has very strong beliefs in God, that focus around God's love and mercy. He would be considered by many in the ntcc, to be a sinner, on his way to hell just because he doesn't go to the ntcc.
Hopefully this helps a bit.
DnA
The reason you feel so out of place at other churches is probably because you know in your heart that you look so different. And if you look like a typical NTCC woman then people look at you and know you are DIFFERENT. Sorry, but it is the truth. It is very hard to break away from the mentality that you have to look that way to be saved.
It is not a outward appearance that makes you saved it is your heart and your relationship with God. Brainwashing is very hard to get over. There is other churches out there. You are just so use to being in the NTCC you can't think any other way. But you can. Hopefully, if you are married your spouse will agree with your decision to leave. If not, then pray and be patient. But don't just stay in this cult so that you can save face. Life is too short for that.
I speak from experience, I have been through it. I left. And when you do leave you will see how many friends you really have. They will abandon you, because you left but that really is expected now isn't it. Move on with your life. Don't expect any of the Kekels or the likes of them try to get you to come back, they don't care about you, I found that out.
Leaving a cult can be and sometimes is a long process. Even if you don't consider ntcc a cult, it is still a long de-programming process.
First off, you should just leave if you are single. Maybe you'd want to get setup on a job or apartment first if possible. If you are married, follow the advice of what others posted on here.
I'm still in the Washington area, so if you need someone to talk to you can email me here.
realc4ever@gmail.com
I also know a few others that have left as well that are still in the area. So once you leave, you definately won't be friendless or not have anyone to talk to / hang out with.
I don't do facebook, but many of them do and you'll be able to get in touch with them that way as well.
You can also call Jeff, he's posted his numbers on the blog here. He's not in WA State though.
Once you leave, I wouldn't bother with seeking out another church right away.
God isn't found in a church. That's what NTCC teaches. God is in Heaven and you can have a close relationship with him without attending church multiple times a week or even every Sunday.
Like the above poster said, spend time in getting back to knowing Jesus and His peace.
There are alot of feelings and thoughts that you'll have to work through as well. This can take months to years, it depends on the person. I've been out for years and still am working through as my other friend put PTSD-NTCC.
Just don't feel guilty that you have to rush back into finding a church. This won't help at all. Just learn to relax, have fun.
God knows all about it and will lead you and guide you through it.
You'll learn how merciful and loving he is as well, just as I am always seeing.
network 23
"The reason you feel so out of place at other churches is probably because you know in your heart that you look so different."
OR apprehension and unease comes in the knowledge having to think for yourself. Work out your OWN salvation. (Philippians 2:12).
still in.Not trying to be insulting or preachy here.
My advice is do not talk to anyone about why you are leaving. There is no amicable way of leaving. You will lose friends and family. Pray for them.They will warn you about the calamity that befell others that left. Do not believe it. Pure happenstance to those in and out of ntcc. Matthew 5:45
Explore future churches during bible study or a other than Sunday morning service. True colors and motives are shown then.
Yes, I agree, any church you go to will seem vastly different than the NTCC, you get so use to being in a church that does things a certain way and then you go to another church and things are very differently done. It is natural to feel out of place. I do think too that it is a good idea to seek God and not run to another church right away. When I left the NTCC I needed time to really step back and look at myself and my life and why I did what I did while there. I was dumbfounded by all the information I was getting both on this blog and then my own questions of why I had even been so blind to not see what was going on. I was never in seminary so as a member you really are in the dark. It really takes time to regroup after getting out of the NTCC. I feel so much better. I feel better about myself and I feel more like the true me, not the one the NTCC expects me to be. You are really not yourself when you are there. I always felt that way from other people as well. Like they where acting or something. I felt that they were never truly being themselves. You really need to work through all the feelings you have after you leave too. Sometimes, you need to mend relationships with family. Becasue really, the NTCC is not a family friendly kind of church. They preach if your family are not in the NTCC then you don't need them. WRONG, you do need them, family can never be replaced, especially by a church such as this, when you have problems, the NTCC will NOT be there for you. They will not help you in your time of need. I remember Kekel saying over the pulpit "don't come to me with your problems" and I never would, he never seemed the least bit approachable. You may need to move back to be closer to your family if you moved to Washington because of the NTCC. What I have found out is, family are the only people you can truly count on here on earth, because the NTCC won't be there for you. This has been my experience but I still think it is good advice to someone who wants to leave.
Yes, what they said--don't even worry about church at this point. Remove yourself from the poisoned atmosphere of NTCC and give yourself some time to decompress. We were fixated on church when we left, and all we ended up doing was finding other legalistic places and trying to fit in there. You are not interested in NTCC-lite. The whole model they're based on is flawed, and you need to examine the premises of their doctrine. At least half of it is just fabricated BS to keep you under their control.
Jesus preached freedom. You can make it with him; you don't need a bunch of stuffed shirts to mediate. Get away and let the fog clear. You'll be glad you did.
Vic is right. I have to friends who came out of the NTCC about the same time I did. They both jumped right into another church which was too much like the NTCC. The NTCCs theme doctrine is that women and men don't dress alike and they've got Deu 22:5 all wrong in that regard. Well the main themes surrounding the church that my buddies went to were "be fruitful and multiply and the pastor was hung up on "traditions of men". Let me explain.
Because of the scripture, "be fruitful and multiply" the pastor believed that women should not use birth control and have as many children as the man could give her. I kid you not. The pastor also didn't believe in "traditions of men" meaning that you shouldn't celebrate anyh holidays at all. You NTCC folks reading this may think that all sounds funny but it's just a different spin off the same mentality that you guys have. Well it took my buddies a while to figure out that they had simply got involved with another crazy organization similar to the NTCC. Well I learned my lesson from the NTCC and I didn't buy of on that mumbo jumbo for one single second.
The one thing the NTCC and this other church had in common is that the pastor's main interest was buying land and developing property and collecting tithe from of every single soul. You could take one-thousand churches and they'd all teach and believe different things but isn't it just coincidental that all of them would agree that it's a Christian's duty to pay tithe?
I'll tell you why: Because the one thing most of them have in common is that they are money hungry and greedy just like RWD. Why didn't Paul put ANY emphasis on tithing? Why didn't John, or Peter or Jude or James or even Jesus? Why don't you find it mentioned in Acts? If tithing is such a heaven or hell issue, don't you think someone in the New Testament would have placed emphasis on it? Hey, don't get mad at me, I'm just asking a sincere question. Just think about it. People assume that tithing got carried over from the law but if you assume that, how come you can't assume that the rest of the law shouldn't get carried over? Can anyone give me a good answer?
Anyway, Vic is right. Don't be in too big of a hurry to jump into another church like the NTCC. You'll be jumping out of the pot and into the kettle.
Chief
Thank you for all the advice!! I have taken it all to heart and I am taking the steps needed to obtain my freedom.
I know you say not to jump into another Church. I desperately want a Church family (the real fellowship and love) I would feel so bad for those people that said "I don't believe in organized religion." I always felt they missed out on something. Maybe they left a NTCC like experience but I still felt it sad that they wouldn't experience worship (real praise and worship, hint Third Day concert) :) I don't want that for myself. I want freedom among true loving believers. Have any of you found that??
Anonymous said..."Thank you for all the advice!! I have taken it all to heart and I am taking the steps needed to obtain my freedom."
I think that alot of people's thoughts on "organized religion" are more based on not getting involved with a group that wants to control them and that will judge them by standards they don't follow themselves. You definitely don't want to trade the NTCC for another group that is just as authoritarian, manipulative and non-transparent when it comes to its finances.
As you read on this blog, some have different ideas about tithe, but we all agree that we were lied to as to where it was going and there was no accountability. If you were to ask, you were looked down upon and marked as a troublemaker. I don't want to be involved in something like that either. God owns it all and He also wants me to take care of my family or I'm "worse than an infidel".
I don't think the church in the Book of Acts had alot of overhead and the Apostles weren't living in mansions. Maybe look for a home Bible study or ask God to lead you to other genuine Christians that want to grow closer to the Lord and fellowship with them. Take it a one day at a time, continue to pray for and honestly talk to your spouse if you're married and enjoy the Third Day concert!
Anonymous said:
"I always felt they missed out on something. Maybe they left a NTCC like experience but I still felt it sad that they wouldn't experience worship (real praise and worship, hint Third Day concert) :) I don't want that for myself."
DnA said:
We went to Creation fest and it was amazing how people were enjoying their salvation. Whatever you do, don't get involved in a controlling church that is set up to make you live by strict rules, while the leaders live in luxury. There are a lot of good people that get together in churches across the country and worship God. If you can set aside the fault finding attitude that the ntcc taught, and find people that are more concerned about loving one another than financing an empire you will be on the right track.
If you are in the Washington area, talk to MDR, Larry Travis or others and see where they go to church. Another good place to start is at a church that the ntcc hates the most. The Charismatic churches are hated by the ntcc, because they love God and allow you to be yourself. Many of them get together and worship God without pronouncing judgment on each other, and they believe in a new concept called Grace. Well, new to the ntcc, anyway.
I think the point that many are making about not being so quick to jump into another religion is that there are a lot of groups out there that are similar to the ntcc. Unfortunately the church world has been invaded by folks like Davis and Kekel that are out to make a few bucks and they've found that using God for their own selfish endeavor's gives them money, and power over others.
We encourage people to keep their relationship with God but be careful who you trust when it comes to people that claim to be Men of God. I would rather worship God in my house and on my own than to go through another cult experience. The ntcc boasts that they are the last move of God on planet earth, but they really are the farthest away from being what Jesus taught. There are people that are sincere, just be careful and cautious before jumping blindly into something that could be another money trap run by greedy control freaks.
DnA
Anonymous said..."Thank you for all the advice!! I have taken it all to heart and I am taking the steps needed to obtain my freedom."
I sometimes attend a church in tacoma that i feel you'd like. you can email me at realc4ever at gmail.
the church is church for all nations
111 112th st e tacoma.
drop me an email if you plan on going one day and we can meet up.
i'm married by the way.. in case you were wondering.
"I know you say not to jump into another Church. I desperately want a Church family (the real fellowship and love) I would feel so bad for those people that said "I don't believe in organized religion." I always felt they missed out on something."
It's not wrong to yearn for true community, but don't allow your desire to blind you to warning flags you should be heeding. The reason I suggest you back off for a period is that it's important to get a fresh look, uninfluenced by emotion or human persuasion. It's far too easy to get swept up in yet another bad experience, and after this one, you don't need a repeat. Get over any anxiety that not going to church for a little while may cause you; God isn't going to rain fire and brimstone down because you "forsake the assembling." In my opinion, God would much rather have you meditate and worship personally than get imprisoned by another gang of abusers.
There is a reason that the most serious and sincere people are the ones who get victimized--they are the most susceptible to liars and scoundrels. Pure hearted people don't go around finding fault with everything, and they're conscientious about every detail. It's simple for unscrupulous dealers to capitalize on these traits and bring them under control. Don't let anyone misappropriate your devotion.
Anonymous said,
"Maybe things are a little more lax in other NTCC churches but not in Graham. No way. No pants for anything. Zero zilcho..."
Maybe not in Graham... But gran'ma verna davis wears pajama pants at the campground. No wonder she's always running around teaching women to not be in subjection to their husbands in everything by telling them to wear him down and get him to do what she wants him to do, slithering around behind rdub's back saying, "It's the small drop of water that wears away the stone." Then giving that pregnant 'you know what I mean' look over those ridiculously over-sized coke-bottle-bottom owl shaped pink tinted glasses. Blech. Who would want her advice on how to break a man down? rdub and verna have this power-struggle dysfunctional relationship that they have maintained not because of love but because they found it profitable $$$$. She gets her mansions and diamond rings; he gets to travel and play the boss. But she's wearing the pants in the bedroom; and everyone else pays for it when he comes out trying to prove he's in charge. Sickos.
there is a fitting song called
50 ways to leave your lover.
you could paraphrase it to
50 ways to leave RDubber.
Here's the orignal song
50 ways + lyrics
50 ways muppet version
chorus:
You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free
Don and Ange said..."rdub and verna have this power-struggle dysfunctional relationship that they have maintained not because of love but because they found it profitable $$$$."
That's interesting that you say that because we would always hear this story from one of RWD-bag's old St. Louis days where a woman was mad at him after service and said that "If the man was the head, then she was the neck that turned the head." He can boast and bark with all of his false bravado but when it comes down to it, his wife can change his mind about anything. He definitely doesn't know how to tell her to not shop and I've heard her totally blow him off with just a "Oh dad, I'm not going to do that" or "I have my own money".
So she has her Women's Bible Study and different women that she sees and talks to as they travel and teaches them how to defraud their husband in order to manipulate him into getting what they want. He doesn't want to buy you a dress? Don't have sex with him, don't cook the food he wants, don't ask how his day is and act cold towards him.
When he asks what's wrong, tell him that it would make you happy if you had this or that and make him feel guilty or unsatisfied until you get the thing you want. What about love, trust and communication and being like Christ and not a gossipping and manipulative gold-digger? I guess they don't teach that anymore in her "classes".
Yeah, I remember the "neck turning the head" anecdote. Rear Wheel acts like he's Mr. Alpha Male, but Verna the Bad Witch has him wrapped around her pinky. She's just as guilty as he is, and along with that rubber stamping "board" is a chief enabler and beneficiary of his crimes. They're all snakes.
I saw this comment posted in the Mountain Messenger recently:
Anthony says:
March 13, 2012 at 6:39 pm
Vic, My wife and I recently attended this church for a Sunday service and I find myself coming away questioning on rather I should be involved or attend this church.. I would be very greatful if I could possibly talk with you or exchange emails on the concerns that I witnessed and heard..
So I replied:
Anthony, Bruce Smith of The Mountain News forwarded your email address to me after you posted your recent comment online. I'd be happy to discuss my experience in NTCC with you. What are your particular concerns, and what has your experience been in this church? You may wish to surf over to truestoriesoflifeinthentcc.blogspot.com and ntccxerblog.blogspot.com , where there is plenty of information on this group and its leaders. I was involved for sixteen years as a pastor and as a teacher at the school in Graham. I lived in the same room with Mike Kekel when we both attended the "college" back in the early '80s, and Phil Kinson also lived with us. I've now been disentangled from NTCC control for longer than I was a member, so things are mostly back to normal now, I could write several books about those years and the demented circus I was part of.
Please feel free to solicit my opinions on any aspect of this organization. I have some strong ones.
Cheers,
Vic Johanson
Fairbanks, AK
With Anthony's permission, I'm posting the aftermath. It should encourage us all to keep up our efforts to expose this gang:
Mr Johanson, Thankyou so much for sharing the links that you did. I have found and read so much information on the NTCC and their dealings and beliefs, that it has definitely opened my eyes to what this church is all about. I messaged a Vic Garcia and explained to him that after careful consideration and getting the views from past NTCC members that my wife and I felt that NTCC was not a church we would consider any longer.. Well, he showed up at the gate into my communtiy and waited until he saw me drive in and followed me to my house and immediately started defending the church and telling me that anything that I had read and heard was all lies and untruth's, and that Satan was just throwing darts of doubt into my mind.. After several minutes of his sidewalk preaching it was my turn, I questioned him on some of the things I had read and qouted him some statements from high ranking members of the church, all he could do was stare out me open mouthed. I further asked him about the belief that if my wife so choose to wear makeup, do her hair and wear slacks, was she a Jezebel?, no response. I then asked him, Vic are you required by the church to give up a percentage of your income to the church and if you do not, you will you be shunned and asked to leave the church grounds? again no response. At this time I told him that there are several accounts of rape and molestation that were documented with law enforcement and that high ranking members were arrested, tried and convicted, again no response. I then brought up the recent murder of a young lady here locally by a male member of NTCC and that the man was found hiding on NTCC grounds in another members house, he responded with ( that never happened), well it did and was in the news and in the local papers as well.. I then asked him about one final fact that I had uncovered and found in articles, I asked him about the apartments where the young lady was murdered and did he know who owned them of course he said NO. So I eased his wondering lol.. I stated that the apartments where he use to live and where his current sister and brother in law live, were the exact same apartments where the murder took place and that 95% of the occupants are all members of NTCC and that the owner is also a high ranking and personal friend of RW Davis. He said well you are pretty informed on your readings..
Again I told him that NTCC was not the type of enviroment that my wife and I needed to attend and that we would be looking for a church where we could go and be comfortable in our faith and relationship with the Lord. He has made 2 attempts since our talk attempting to bring me back to NTCC. I finally told him once and for all that this was not going to happen and that they could take me and my wife off of their visit and contact list.. Hopefully I have drove my point home with him..
I wrote this just to let you know that after receiving your email and reading the links you shared and the finding and writings of several ex members, I have moved on and found a really nice church with a great enviroment and a place where the correct message is shared..
thankyou so much,
Anthony
Anthony, you did what I should have done YEARS ago! Good for you.
Vic, Thanks for sharing.
Anthony said..."After several minutes of his sidewalk preaching it was my turn, I questioned him on some of the things I had read and qouted him some statements from high ranking members of the church, all he could do was stare out me open mouthed."
That would have been great to have been there just to see this RWD-bag sycophant get shutdown and have his mouth wide opened and eyes blinking. "You are pretty informed..." HAHA
First of all, unless he is invited into your community and to your house he is not supposed to be there, at least that is what most gated communities are like. High pressure sales tactics are not of God and do nothing to draw people to Christ or to demonstrate true Christian love.
Second, it almost is a form of showing guilt when you rise up in a defensive posture againt another person but the young neophyte NTCC preacher was unable to defend the indefensible.
Third, he had no way of answering your questions to where you felt like you and your wife would feel loved and accepted. If you went into a church and feel out of place (not conviction but something just isn't right) or you essentially get jumped at the gate by someone than that is a couple of red flags.
That is good news. What we do is working and I don't plan to stop. Actually, Anthony barely scraped the surface of the NTCCs dirt. If I were to sit and read this blog from start to finish I'd leave my chair extremely disturbed. Sounds funny hey, especially being that I've read probably every message ever written here? Well when you get things in bits and pieces isn't not as bad, but if I were to read this whole blog from start to finish, I'd be straight up MAD.
The NTCC is FULL of crooked, inconsiderate, greedy and nasty people. The NTCC is absolutely a terrible organization.
Chief
That's good news, Vic.
Hopefully this Garcia will leave ntcc too. I'd bet he will be reading the blogs now to find out how Anthony got so well informed!
Word to the wise:
"STALKING"
AND
"TRESSPASSING"
Evoke images of
"RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"
AND
"CULT"
Sometimes, I feel guilty for leaving this church only because it may appear I have left God. THat is not the case, I am looking for a church but when you have been so brainwashed and indoctrinated by the NTCC no church seems to be acceptable. This blog has helped me through this process, and it is a process after you leave the NTCC. PTSD does come to mind when I think of what I have been through. I am glad I left though and I would never step foot in any NTCC church again. To think that they would harrass perspective new people by coming to their homes and asking them to reconsider is beyond low, but they really must be desparate for new people. Lets face it the only people they will get now will be the poor GI's or some lonely lady who befriended one of the "sisters". But, once you are in. Then they just forget about you. What I have found since leaving the NTCC is that they where never true friends, because once you leave, you are nothing to them. They don't care why you left nothing. Its a empty shell of a church family, that really never was.
The owner of the apartment where that woman was murdered is Merz correct? By the way, she has not attended the NTCC in Graham for some 3 or 4 years. So why I ask is she still getting a bunch of NTCC tennants to rent to? The only way that makes sense is for some financial gain to Davis, as we all know once you leave the NTCC they want nothing to do with you, so why would they continue to send NTCC people to her apartment building? I remember this woman, she was a African American lady with a kind of brash personality and she drove a very nice BMW. So, most likely she would pay Davis to send her new tenants? after all they would be good tenants as in, not damaging the place, paying the rent on time etc. Why else would she continue to get new NTCC people.
I would have thought so also but the word I got is that her apartments are cheap and that's why NTCC people stay there. Apparently Ms. Merz is not a big fan of Davis either; at least that is what I was told. It doesn't add up though. The NTCC is very particular about keeping people away from exers and if Ms. Merz can't stand Davis, I would have expected the NTCC leadership to have attempted to prevent people from staying at her apartments. If NTCC people we're staying at my apartments, I'd leave literature at their door explaining the NTCC's crooked practices. The whole thing is strange if you ask me. Graham is like a Payton Place. It's a real strange circle that exists in Graham.
Chief
Yes, I have heard Graham spoke about that it is a subculture of people, they have a way of doing things and it is odd and out of the ordinary in every way. ie, late night shopping after church on Saturday and Walmart, grocery shopping at strange times of the night. They all seem to do it together. Like its a way of life or something, they live and breath the times when they are not in church and then they all seem to do the same thing. Like a bunch of clones with no real life of their own.
"Anonymous said...
there is a fitting song called
50 ways to leave your lover.
you could paraphrase it to
50 ways to leave RDubber."
Mick Lloyd-Owen beat you to it about five years ago:
"50 WAYS TO LEAVE R. DUBBER
The problem is all inside your head
He said to me
The answer is easy if you
Take it logically
I'd like to help you in your struggle
To be free
There must be fifty ways
To leave R. Dubber
He said it's really not my habit
To intrude
Furthermore, I hope my meaning
Won't be lost or misconstrued
But I'll repeat myself
At the risk of being crude
There must be fifty ways
To leave R. Dubber...
Fifty ways to leave R. Dubber
CHORUS:
You just make it real quick, MICK
Listen to this, CHRIS
You don't need to be slick, VIC
Just get yo-self free
Do what you must, BoGGUS
YOU DON'T NEED TO DUSCUSS MUCH!!!
Just follow ol' Keys, SEE
And get yourself free
He said it grieves me deeply
To see you in such pain
I wish there was something I could do
To make you smile again
I said I appreciate that
And would you please explain
About the fifty ways...
He said why don't we both
Just pray it through tonight
And I believe in the morning
You'll begin to see the light
So I uncorked my stifled brain
And I realized he was right
There must be fifty ways
To leave R. Dubber...
Fifty ways to leave R. Dubber
You just pack up and go, JOE
Take a long hike, MIKE
You don't answer to him, JIM
Just get yourself free
Just head for the hills, PHIL
FREEDOM IS SUCH A THRILL!!!!!
Make like fly, ELI
And say goodbye"
Man that was funny Vic. I just found this one. 50 ways to leave R. Dubber. That was too funny Vic.
Just kick him in the dick Vic,
Punch him in the head Fred,
Knock him in the knee, Lee,
just listen to me,
Kick him in the balls Paul,
you don't need to be sly guy,
just bust him in the face, grace,
and set yourself free.
Chief
Hah, a few more ways! Hey, with NTCC, you have to get away by any means possible.
I can think of a few more than that Vic. You are funny man.
Chief
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