I used to attend RW's sham "Advanced School of Theology." Money was almost all he talked about. One time he was showing us how we should stick our money in Savings Bonds. He was doing the math on how much we would end up with investing $25/week. He made a decimal placement error in the calculations and had everyone thinking they'd be an order of magnitude richer than reality would dictate. It was like "stick $25/week in low-yielding government savings bonds and you'll be a millionaire in 20 years." Not by a longshot, Rodger.
The textbook for AST was "The Law of Success" by Napoleon Hill. Lots of good advice for secular prosperity, but Napopleon Hill was an occultist who believed in the Ascended Masters, evolved humans who have lived thousands of years and communicate via mental telepathy and can psychicly project themselves out of their bodies. Yeah, that was some really advanced theology, all right, especially for a "holiness" institution.
He did tell us the real secret though. It's OPM--"Other Peoples' Money." There he was telling us to our faces that the secret to his own wealth was the money he'd extracted by various means from other people (including us). From tithes, to dorm rent, to tuition, to "love offerings," to the tablespoon of salsa that they sold in the "fellowship" hall for 75 cents--all of it was designed to cause OPM to flow up the pyramid. Some people are willing to be users and abusers, and they prosper in NTCC. The rest go broke.
Chief wrote...
I sat through a few of Davis' investment teaching messages. One was in Germany and I remember it quite well. Of course it was all a scam because in the NTCC, you never really had enough money to make any decent investments. You spent too much time giving it away to the NTCC and not enough time keeping it to invest. I also listened to Davis tell everyone how he "prayed" to God that one day he'd become a millionaire and of course it happened. Clearly Davis was preoccupied with figuring out ways to accumulate wealth which placed him in the category of having the "love of money" which the Bible tell us is the root of all evil. OPM hey? Well he sure got plenty of that because it all roles up hill in the NTCC.
I wonder why I can't find one example in the New Testament Bible of this type of money exchange taking place in the early church. Do we find evidence that Paul, James, Peter or John lived in a mansion or road around in a real nice chariot with big fat horses pulling it along? Did the Apostles travel around in a large private sea going vessel compliments a bunch of tithe payers or world missions pledges? Things that make you go hmmmm....
Chief's advanced school of investmentology. Never give your money to rich millionaire church leaders. If you want to give as unto the Lord, do it the Lord's way. Give to people who need it like the fatherless or widow or the less fortunate in the church.
Examples: Jam 1:27, Rom 15:26 or 1 Cor 16:1&2 which by the way has nothing to do with paying tithe like the NTCC suggests in their doctrinal statement. Compare Rom 15:26 and 1 Cor 1&2 and you'll see they are dealing with the same event. These scriptures deal with taking up a collection for "POOR SAINTS" which contrary to what the NTCC teaches doesn't have jack to do with paying tithe. 1 Cor 16:1&2 defined in Strongs. It's obvious if you know how to read and how to use your brain. This is another NTCC lie designed to mislead and deceive. How about Acts 4:35? When was the last time you saw Davis or Kekel try that one. Davis and Kekel have taught that Peter and John were misguided socialists in Acts 4. Amazing how they can twist the scriptures to suit their needs when it's convenient. If you aren't sure what those scriptures are just click on them. Mat 25:40. That's what giving unto the Lord is all about. Not paying tithes to some rich greedy multi mega millionaire like Davis and Kekel and watch them live like kings while you live from paycheck to paycheck.
209 comments:
1 – 200 of 209 Newer› Newest»ANON MIKE,
Good post, I'd never heard of these investments teachings but compound interest on 3-5 % will never get you to wealth unless you're investing a lot more than 25 bucks at a time.
This is so sad because I've seen so many sweet people (the Maholics) trying to do right and set good examples but the tunnel never has a light at the end. Just more cars and houses for Kekel.
You have no empathy or sympathy for your own people Kekel. Can't wait for you to get yours!
To everyone reading this thread. If you can, make sure you go to the front page of this thread and click on the link "1 Cor 16:1&2 defined in Strongs". It's very specific and it's proof that the NTCC has lied about the meaning of this scripture. These scriptures do not deal with tithe; they deal with taking up a collection or gathering money for the relief of the poor.
Chief
The sad thing was that we were supposed to be learning about the deep things of God in AST, but all it consisted of was RW boasting and telling war stories and giving out faulty investment advice. It was a real waste of time. We'd have been better off just reading Napoleon Hill on our own rather than have it regurgitated back to us in a mangled form.
Good Thread Chief! I was also selected to attend the Davis Farce of a class called AST. (Advanced Sucker Training)!
Vic, do you remember how that Davis would always select one of the students in the class to publicly humiliate. They would become the subject of the whole class period. Davis would single them out and began to shred them in front of everybody for not having money. And it was always because they didn't apply what they supposedly leaned in Bible School! And then after the shredding, he always followed it up with this statement, "If this offends you, it's because your full of pride"!
He was the one full of something!
Kekel the Schmekel has learned well from his crooked Fater-in-law. In one of the last service's that my wife and I attended in Graham, before leaving that "Crooked Organization", Kekel the Scmekel got up and looked right at me and said "the reason that you're not blessed like me is because you didn't do what Pastor Davis taught and I did"! He said, "you squandered all your money and I invested mine like Pastor taught"!
He was right, we squandered our money giving it to that "crooked church"!
But not anymore! My wife and I are doing very well since we escaped that ponzi scheme!
Kekel the Schmekel can go dip his head in an Honeybucket! That would be an improvement, to say the least!
mdr
MDR,
It must have taken everything for you to not shout him down and tell him if it weren't for who your sorry butt married you'd be screwed too.
MJ
It wont be long now and Grant will be talking crap to all the incoming students.
NTCC is a scam by any standard.
I'd never heard of the advanced school of theology while attending. How were you selected? Were there any qualifications?
I'm surprised (and not) that more people aren't seeing through this drivel. I see Ashmore is posting "I'm the smartest preacher in the world videos". Maybe he'll have an AST too.
You've been had, admit it and move on NTCCers.
AST was supposed to be sixty classes long, and upon completion, a "Master's" degree was to be conferred. I don't think anyone ever got one. Selection was based on RW's own arbitrary wishes. We all thought it was something great, but really it was just a venue for him to strut in front of us and tell us how great he was. Just another phony bauble to dangle in front of us and make us think we were special. Well, we were. We were the special suckers that were still hanging in there after years of exploitation. We were the chief enablers of his sick lifestyle, digging deep for money that should have gone to provide for our own. He was doing his best to make infidels out of us.
Dave
This almost seems like scientology as you have to keep paying and staying in the "program" to make it in the ranks.
How much is Bible School,anyways?
Yes it does remind one of Scientology, with the pressure, the torture, the jacking up, the dressing down, yes. Also like Jim Jones, " drink the kool aid, die with some dignity" us vs. Them ... We are the persecuted...
D said
... We are the persecuted...
Is there something wrong with us to enjoy being Jacked up? I wore it as a badge of honor that I had a pastor that would rip me a new one. Why? What the heck was wrong with me.
I'm interested in some input or comments regarding these 2 particular scriptures. Directly above in the name section is a link to the definition if you click on "1 Cor 16:1&2 Defined. Does anyone find it interesting that the NTCC leadership will take 1 Cor 16:2 and use it as justification to support compulsory tithing when clearly it refers to taking up money to be given to the poor?
I've posted this a few times and it's never got any traction for some reason. Maybe I'm over thinking this but to me it seems to be a very compelling fact that the NTCC leadership would deliberately take a scripture (that clearly references the practice of taking up a collection for the relief of the poor) and use that scripture to justify tithing. Especially when it obviously has absolutely nothing to do with tithing. Click on the link and read it if you will. It even shows in the definition what book and chapter it's pertaining to; 1 Cor 16.
NTCC people are good at explaining away stuff but how do you explain away this? The deliberate false representation of a scripture to justify compulsory tithing when it clearly has NOTHING to do with it. Additionally, the NTCCs own doctrinal statement uses this scripture to justify compulsory tithing while saying that tithing is not to be used for charity when in fact that is exactly what 1 Cor 16 is taking about, (giving to charity) specifically in relief or the poor.
Can someone chime in on this and again, if you can, click the link and read it for yourselves. It should make anyone really question the honesty of the NTCC leadership.
Chief
ANON MIKE
Chief, you make a good point using the scriptures. I think people might not be commenting because they have already seen the lack of any empathy towards widows, the poor (DON'T BRING POOR PEOPLE TO CHURCH THEY HAVE NO MONEY), to include their own ministers who are sucking wind and busting butt to build a work of God from scratch.
Even if NTCC's use of the scripture you provided was the correct interpretation it doesn't let them off the hook. Look how they use it to enrich the 5-6 families at the top.
You had me convinced at "Soak Your Brother Ology"
I was helping a Pastor at the Nashville work (as a member of the church) and he had to sleep in a chair because he couldn't afford acid reflux meds. This guy was a very good and decent guy and really worked hard to set a good, loving example. He shouldn't have been struggling like that for over the counter medication. If he was an independent preacher you'd think it was a solid church for the community.
I feel for the guy!
Mike
"How much is Bible School,anyways?"
Way more than the price tag indicates. When I was around, the tuition was pretty cheap--like $50 per class and a $50 registration fee. But that's predicated on the fact that you are already forking up 10% of your gross income, plus offerings, and if you're single, you are required to stay in a sardine-can dorm, which is also not too expensive, but that's $ that goes straight to the insatiable beast.
You also have to factor in that nearly every spare minute will be employed carrying water for a bunch of effete elitists that have forgotten how to shine shoes, mow lawns, clean houses, wash cars, and perform myriad other menial tasks required of those who live on this earth. I'm surprised they haven't commandeered students to wipe their asses yet.
It will also cost you your own mind; you'll be required to turn it over for their exclusive use. They don't use it very hard, since they're incapable of sustained and difficult thinking, but they will focus it in directions that are perverse to your own interests.
(B)ible (S)chool is a very expensive proposition. You will learn invaluable things there, though, but they aren't in the syllabus. You'll learn how people with power exploit the powerless, and just how uncaring and callous selfish "leaders" can be as they consolidate their power. This isn't what you paid for, but it's far more useful and will enable you to never find yourself in that situation again, if you take heed.
Anon Mike said...
I think people might not be commenting because they have already seen the lack of any empathy towards widows, the poor.
Chief said...
I'm actually not (in this case) talking about them having empathy towards fatherless, widows or poor. I'm looking at the NTCCs doctrinal statement where they listed specifically (1 Cor 16:2) as justification for them believing it's the duty of a Christian to pay tithe. Well 1 Cor 16:2 has NOTHING to do with tithe and I included a quick click link for people to access to see for themselves what 1 Cor 16:2 REALLY means. And oh by the way, with or without the link to the definition, that scripture is not that hard to figure out.
So my point here is that's solid proof that the NTCC leadership deliberately falsely uses scriptures to justify their doctrine. I was just wondering if anyone has clicked on the link, and what their take was as it specifically pertains to 1 Cor 16:2 and why the NTCC leadership would use that in their doctrinal statement in support of paying tithe? Any takers? The link is to Strongs concordance and the definition is very specific. Any thoughts anyone?
I gotcha Chief and I agree with you.
I guess my point concerned why your post isn't gaining traction. Even if this were a sound principle like they are saying it is, who really cares? They have discredited themselves in so many areas that debating what they think is wrong or right is irrelevant at this point... Or heck maybe it's not. Maybe someone will read your post and wise up.
I guess the reason this whole 1 Cor 16:2 thing gets me so much is because, brainwashed or not, there are a lot of really smart people in the NTCC.
If I was still in the NTCC now, and I knew 1 Cor 16:2 was STILL in their doctrinal statement to support compulsory tithing, I would talk to someone in an attempt to get that scripture removed from the doctrinal statement because the use of it is insulting and morally questionable to me. That's just me. Not only that, the fact that 1 Cor 16:2 is even in their doctrinal statement would make me question (their) interpretation of every scripture they quote.
The fact is the NTCC leadership get's a lot wrong where their doctrine and teachings are concerned.
Anon said...
Even if this were a sound principle like they are saying it is, who really cares?
Chief wrote...
Good point. Very true. You are right and the truth is, we've written a whole lot more damning stuff on this blog which has been ignored by the masses so why would people care if the NTCC leadership deliberately misuses scriptures to justify taking their money? Fair enough.
Chief, talk about it again. Repetition is a good teacher. Some folks need to see it worded different than before, or to have some comment and say something to make it click for the reader. We were deep in the fog. It took a lot to bring us out. Thankfully, I'm finally out!!!!
Chief said..."So my point here is that's solid proof that the NTCC leadership deliberately falsely uses scriptures to justify their doctrine."
Chief, New Testament Christian Churches of America is laden with False doctrine. (Un-Christlike Practices). They wouldn't help the poor if God himself spoke from Heaven and told them to do so! And if they did, you can bet-cha there would be some kind of strings attached for the reimbursement of those funds! This is always the case, even when they help their own members, (Brethren)!
NTCC also uses Hebrews 7:1-10 to "enforce" their false teaching about tithing. Hebrews 7 is an allegorical point, That serving God under Grace, through what Christ accomplished, is the only way to please God, not through works of righteousness that we have done! Like paying tithe!!!
Have you ever wondered how that Davis made the paying of tithes an Heaven or Hell issue? There's not one scripture in the bible that substantiates that doctrine. Yet, Davis would get up and say "if don't pay your tithe, you gonna split hell wide open"!
NTCC is a legalistic/works based Cult that "sucks" it's members dry and leaves them destitute mentally, spiritually, and physically!
mdr
ANON MIKE,
Chief,
Didn't mean to come across as harsh when I said "who cares". It's just they've done so much evil with so much money (MY MONEY, YOUR MONEY, OUR MONEY) that even if they were correct it just wouldn't matter.
I'll leave it to more scholarly folks to reply to your Biblical point as I'm not well versed in the matter. I was only well versed in "All Christian's Tithe and Give in offerings".
That's funny Anon Mike. No offense taken. I understood. I'm not that well versed either. I've just spent some time in Strongs and in some other reference materials so I know a little. I had to unscrew my brain where the scriptures were concerned because NTCC pastors did their best to screw it up. I know a lot of it was unintentional but some of it was because they took Davis' word on everything and It's clear to me know that Davis was quite often wrong. Too often.
Chief
Does anyone remember how that RWD starting putting DOCTOR on the bible college graduation pamphlets. Then a few people starting asking him where he got his doctorate at and what his thesis was he took it down. He said it was because he didn't want to be proud. I don't think he ever answered anyone saying where he got his doctorate at. Does anyone know?
All christians pay tithe and give in offerings. Yes, I remember that. If you didn't say that you were in big trouble.
Its a shame they hurt so many people. I knew a couple of brothers back around 95, they had kids before they came to NTCC. They struggled so bad, paying child support, tithe, offerings, and more and they worked a job that didn't make much. I believe in giving to God but some people have exceptionally hard times.
RWD's attitude was usually, just file bankruptcy, but keep paying your tithe.
Then after many years of faithful service, they'd disappear, probably condemned. Not because they didn't love Jesus but because financially they were strapped.
If you are reading this and in NTCC and you are struggling financially, let me tell you, God loves you. His love for you is not tied to your wallet. When Jesus died on the cross for your sins, your financial wizardry or lack of it,was not in his mind. He came to bring you PEACE and JOY because we are not under the Old Law anymore.
MDR, I liked your explanation of Hebrews 7. We were always taught how that Hebrews is about how Christ is BETTER but of course we were never taught what you said,
Hebrews 7 is an allegorical point, That serving God under Grace, through what Christ accomplished, is the only way to please God, not through works of righteousness that we have done! Like paying tithe!!!
If you are still in NTCC and struggling like so many, going to 2 conferences a year, fellowship meetings, finances and more, stop and realize that if you BELIEVE and have faith in Christ as your Savior, you are pleasing God, not by how many doors you knock on.
WHAT? YOU MEAN I DON'T HAVE TO KNOCK ON DOORS (HOPING NO ONE WILL ANSWER) FOR 6 HOURS A WEEK? YOU MEAN I DON'T NEED TO ATTEND FIVE SERVICES/BIBLE STUDIES EVERY WEEK TO BE SAVED? THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE?
Does this mean I'll have time to spend with my family? Does this mean I can actually take a day off without guilt and just visit the zoo or something?
I don't know about this... I'll have to ask my pastor. He'll set me straight I'm sure.
RW claimed he had TWO doctorate degrees that were supposedly collecting dust in a drawer because he didn't care anything about them. But he sure did mention them enough to insure we all know he had a Piled High and Deep degree and a Doctor of Deception too.
This whole thing came up on FACTnet years ago and no one could come up with a shred of evidence about his alleged advanced degrees. Mark Gloer even traveled to Graham and confronted Mike and Tanya about it and they had no answers. The obvious one is that he was a fraud and liar and if he had any advanced degrees, they came from a diploma mill someplace.
The whole org is based on a series of lies from RWD--that he was a serious theologian and that he was run off because of "compromise" and had to start from scratch to build a real "holiness" organization. Bullshit. He was a two bit salesman who figured out that the gospel constitutes an infinite opportunity to swindle others without tying money up in pesky inventory. If he'd have stuck with cars or insurance a least he would only have been stealing money, instead of lives. But he was selling false dreams, and never delivered a fraction of what he promised. Good riddance.
That's what I'm talking about Vic!!!
A way out there Theory
I wonder if Denis Org is a Franchise for Kekel. To keep the holiness people pumping money into the org he needed to have HOP. Then he worked on a normal church that he would hope to become a much larger org now that holiness isn't so much a part of it anymore.
I just can't figure out why they'd let Denis run off with so much money.
NTCC is now Toyota while HOP is Lexus. Money goes to the same place. Maybe Ashmore is a franchise too.
Just a nutball theory but fun to speculate.
Yeah that is a wild theory but I pretty much know what took place and believe me, Denis broke away completely. Denis was taking a percentage of the tithe and offerings from various different NTCC churches and putting it into a "HOP" account for a good while before the split ever took place. I know this because I was told this by someone who was an NTCC pastor and very close to Denis and who left with Denis during the split.
This person has long since parted ways with Denis but he told me quite a bit about the inner working of the split nevertheless. Denis claimed that he had a big problem with Kinson specifically and that compromise was being allowed into the NTCC, (specifically where watching TV was concerned) and that's why he broke away. Denis also said he had a big problem with the way the NTCC leadership was distributing the RV fleet to it's overseers. Obviously he didn't get one when he became an overseer. Well Denis did tell me directly that he learned a lot from RWD and that he would use the lessons he'd been taught by RWD to effectively build HOP. He was clearly referring to ways to extract money from the church members and pastors and how to accumulate rental properties. Denis was not going to remain in the NTCC and essentially not get squat when he could be in control of everything by breaking away just like Davis did when he broke away from his previous church.
In reality Denis wasn't the least bit worried about compromise (which in fact always existed in the NTCC and still does). He wanted control of people and money just like Davis had control of people and money.
Well no doubt Ashmore is doing the same thing and anyone with any sense would follow suit even if it was only to have complete control of only their local church. Why in the world would you send money to Graham, that came into your church, just to have the Kekels squander it on everything and anything they could possibly dream of? Makes no sense. Not only that, Denis was and is a crook and he knew he was and knows he is. It's only about money with these guys. The church is just a front and a good one at that. Building churches is a great business, no doubt. I just don't have the lack of conscience enough so to allow me to do that to people. If I had a little less conscience, I'd preach, "all christians pay tithe and give in the offerings" right along with Davis, Denis and Kekel and never blink an eye. My conscience just won't let me do it for what it's worth. I live fine without soaking others just so I can get ahead.
Chief
Vic, that was an awesome post. Davis was the one that always bragged about his two doctorate degrees. When challenged about them he couldn't produce nothing, but hot air. Davis was a lying, crooked, snake oil salesman, FRAUD! And unfortunately we were the suckers that got caught in his trap of deception.
Anon said...Maybe Ashmore is a franchise too.
You can bet your bottom dollar that if Davis was still alive, Ashmore would still be up there in Graham adhering to his deceptive ways.
Whats more if anybody thinks that they will get something different by leaving the NTCC and joining up with Ashmore, well good luck with that.
mdr
PS They're all KOOKS!
Anyone close enough to MO to sneak into the conference and give us a report of how many people are showing up? I'm curious because we would stand in line 2 hours before service like we were trying to get the best seats for an Avengers Movie when I went.
Vic said..."RW claimed he had TWO doctorate degrees..."
Do you realize how difficult is to achieve one doctorate degree let alone two of them? The percentage of people in the world that have achieved two Phd's is very small. And Davis sure wasn't one of them. Even if he had received two Phd's they would have been honorary degrees and that would beg the question, from what University were they presented to him?
I would like to read his thesis...Oh, I already did. It was that publication called "The Answer!" I believe that is the only literature that has ever been authored by RWD. And really that's just a bunch of scriptures extracted from the Bible explaining the Holy Spirits function in the believers life.
Vic, you nailed it when you said that Davis' degrees came from a diploma mill.
RWD and Kekel the Schmekel are nothing more than con men siting a atop a huge religious ponzi scheme.
mdr
Did Rev. Jones ( board member) leave? I heard don't know its true though
Anon said:
RWD's attitude was usually, just file bankruptcy, but keep paying your tithe.
Me:
I am not sure on this one. It seemed he would allow bankruptcy, but then later times he'd get up and say how he paid everyone he ever knew and then say, I don't know if u can go to heaven if u filed bankruptcy! Really? Did he just say that? So if someone makes a mistake, they can't be forgiven by the God who says, His mercy endures forever? Even the government put a legal route in place to FORGIVE people of mistakes or unforeseen circumstances in business or personal life.
Yet, he would put this huge burden upon a hurting soul saying they can't go to heaven.
And people looked to him as though God was talking thru him. So sad.
For the record, God can forgive your worst sin and still loves you. You are his Son/Daughter. (Prodigal son story. He lost everything, a ring on his finger, party, and on and on.)
ANON MIKE:
Just watched "Going Clear" on HBO. It's about Scientology. It's amazingly similar in tactics to NTCC.
Worth watching.
I don't know if Jones left. I have no reason to believe he has. From what I know, there is no evidence that suggests he has left other than pure rumors. Who knows. Lots of people leave the NTCC but I have no reason to believe that Jones has. I do know that Jones was down here in Columbus GA visiting the Hunts as of recently while performing NTCC re-brainwashing and money making tasks. That would indicated that he hasn't left but the truth is, I have no idea. On one occasion I saw Jones and his wife and on the other occasion I saw Mrs. Hunt and Mrs. Jones together; both times in Walmart.
There seemed to be a pretty good space of time between the two sightings; maybe even three weeks or a month but it's not like I was keeping track.
Chief
Once I preached a message in Graham from where Paul delcared "I am a debtor." I talked about bankruptcy--how society had set up this mechanism to give people a new chance, and that we should file spiritual bankruptcy and trust in Jesus to forgive us. RW got up afterward and did damage control, making sure that everyone knew that God didn't approve of escaping our debts. But then he told Curry to file bankruptcy to get out of what he regarded as a bad car deal. He was never consistent.
RW was such a hypocrite. He placed such strong burdens on all of us while at the same time living such a double standard life. Looking back, I now realize that he was such a judgmental, know-it-all blow hard.
I really don't care for overly religious people. They are so fake and overly superstitious. If you want to trust the Lord, that's fine, but you better take a common sense approach to your faith and not make stupid blind decisions like many NTCCers have. I you want to trust the Lord, then again, that's fine, but don't be so naive and ignorant that you just blindly trust folks like Kekel, Olson and Creflo Dollar who have been proven over and over to be no more than hypocritical swindlers. Either way; I won't trust them and that's for absolute certainty.
These NTCC leaders claim that the NTCC is the last great hope for mankind when in reality it's one of the greatest menaces to mankind.
Thanks Vic for saying that. When i read that, it brings back memories of habits he would do that are hard to refute.
your sermon makes sense to me, but i could see him doing that, because it went against his teaching of paying your bills, which of course, everyone wants to do, but if you are overwhelmed, it is what it is.
Its sad he didn't preach grace and forgiveness, instead choosing judgment and performance, which always pit us against each other.
Rdub claimed he didn't advocate bankruptcy but he'd drive you to bankruptcy in a heartbeat and not blink an eye. He reminds me of Ebenezer Scrooge or the Grich who stole Christmas. R.W. Davis may go down for being remembered as the greediest person who ever walked the earth. He didn't care who he drove to poverty or bankruptcy as long as the end result was more money in his pocket. Man that guy was greedy. He was anything but Christ like. Christ would have flipped a few of Davis' tables over back in the day.
Chief said..."I don't know if Jones left."
Jones hasn't left the NTCC. He's got his face so far up Michael Kekel's butt it's pathetic. He's a good little boot licker that isn't going anywhere.
I was with Jones one time just sitting around and chewing the cud and outta nowhere he makes the statement " You know it's a real art to get people to give you what you want you" I think he realized what he'd said and immediately changed topic.
Who ever is in Kekel's Corner is primed for a cut of the pie. The number sounds like it's shrinking so the line is getting smaller. Those who never thought they'd be an overseer or board member might see their fortune's change as Kekel is most likely doing "Bugsyesque" deals to keep people around. Soon everyone will be getting 25% of the pie.
Anonymous said...
"Jones hasn't left the NTCC. He's got his face so far up Michael Kekel's butt it's pathetic. He's a good little boot licker that isn't going anywhere."
You sound like you're in the know. Can I ask how you got this info?
Anonymous asked...
You sound like you're in the know. Can I ask how you got this info?
Chief said...
Don't let yourself get roped into this question. If you really do know, you don't want the NTCC to know who you are and the less you write, the better for your sake. All I'd say is, "I know" and that would be the extent of it. Of course if you are still in the NTCC you'd be doing yourself a favor to get out but having said that, It's good to have insiders posting on this blog assuming you even are an insider.
I spent a little time around Jones also. He is a yes man all the way. He has little or no moral convictions. He won't stand up for himself. He told me that basically the way he became an overseer was by keeping his mouth shut and not standing up for himself when he was getting ridden by Davis. There was a time when he was on the outside looking in and if the truth be known, he very well might still be on the outside if Denis was still in the NTCC. They wouldn't have two black guys as overseers; you can pretty much bet on that. Jones told me that he was a marked man, so to speak, but he also said the everything worked out for him in the end. After the split took place, he got promoted to overseer.
In sports, he was like the guy riding the bench until someone else got injured and then by default he was put in the game. That's typical in the NTCC. Be a good boy and keep your mouth shut and eventually they'll break off a few scraps from the table. Thats nothing I'd be interested in. I'd rather hold my head up high and stand up for myself than be a yes man and suck up to the likes of Kekel. Jones can have it, assuming he still is with the NTCC. I don't personally know what the guy is doing for sure.
Chief
Anonymous said that Jones said....
You know it's a real art to get people to give you what
Chief said...
Sound's like a true cult leading con artist to me. That something that Davis would say. Yep, Jone is no different than the rest of them. Nothing but a straight con artist, huckster and swindler.
Chief
The first religion was created when the first con man met the first fool.
Denis was a black guy?
One of the biggest problems with NTCC is that they ignorantly promote and teach the heretical doctrines of Finis Dake.
Dake's interpretation of the Trinity is the ancient heresy known as Tritheism (God is three divine beings as well as three persons). This of course results from his flawed, carnal, pagan, understanding of God's divine nature. He teaches that God's divine nature is a physical body. In reality, God is spirit (John 4:24, Luke 24:39) in essence.
Dake's misunderstanding of the nature of God results from his hyper-literal approach to scripture. He fails to recognize theophanies as well as anthropomorphisms in the scriptures.
theophany: temporary manifestation of God in physical form (burning bush, man wrestling with Jacob until the breaking of day, etc)
anthropomorphism- a type of metaphor where humanlike characteristics are ascribed to non-human entities. For example
"The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good" (Proverbs 15:3)
The author did not literally mean that God has eyeballs that are literally everywhere. If that were literally true where would the entire creation be because those eyeball would literally be everywhere? What the author of the proverb means is that there is no place you can go where God cannot see you. God sees everything, everywhere simultaneously.
There are many more heresies in Dake's Bible that NTCC promotes. See also:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/god-has-no-body
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/dakes_bible.htm
http://www.sites.onlinemac.com/trwmainst/dake.html
http://learntheology.com/dake_bible/dake_life_heresy.html
https://blogginbaldguy.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/291/
http://learntheology.com/dake_trial_conviction/Christianity_Today_Article_Dake.pdf
Stephen G
Hello Stephen G. Thanks for the enlightenment/insight to the scriptures, but we don't need another long winded expose' on the fallacy of the Dake doctrines!
We specialize on digging up dirt on the Ntcc corrupt practices, not correcting their Doctrinal beliefs!
Thanks anyway!
Lol those practices largely stem from the practical implications of Dake's strange doctrines which are taught at their seminary. I didn't think that my post was long winded. But I did post some links that I thought would be helpful. That's all. Peace out.
Stephen G
I've started to think all religion to be a bit strange. What's the difference in the end?
I'm not too big on Dake, but he did not teach that God has a physical body. He taught that God had a spirit body, which would not be made of physical substance. He did teach that God has a body, but not a physical body. This would correspond to angelic beings, whose bodies also aren't comprised of physical substance.
NTCC's adherence to Dake is way less problematic than their authoritarianism. I've read every note in the Dake bible, plus some of his books, and he never advocated the kind of twisted control practiced by the org.
Jones was an overseer before Denis ever showed up. Denis became the new token, but the job reverted to Jones once Denis split. I know Jones was World Missions director way back when Jesus Rodrigues was in Panama back in the '90s.
Vic wrote...
Jones was an overseer before Denis ever showed up.
Chief wrote...
Yeah, I knew that, but basically, (during the time that Denis was an overseer) Jones had run into some problems with the org leadership and for the lack of a better term, he'd somewhat been benched. I don't know exactly what position he was holding or what duties he was performing at that time but this is what I do know.
We had all gone out to dinner when Jones was in town and I was expressing my displeasure concerning the practices of a certain NTCC pastor and the way that pastor had been handled by the NTCC leadership.
Well Jones, (in an attempt to empathize with me) proceeded to explain how some accusations had been levied against him, but according to him, the accusations were false or inaccurate. He said that he had to stand before Davis (and or the board) and Jones had to listen to these grievances which were being made against him.
Then Jones told me that he didn't even elect to speak in his own behalf but rather he just walked away after he basically got chewed out. In other words what he was saying was that he was going to be quiet and let the Lord fight his battles. Essentially that was what he was suggesting that I should do.
Then he summarized his whole story by saying, "See look where I am now, the Lord worked it all out for me as now, (with Denis being gone) I'm working in the capacity of a full time traveling overseer" in this particular region.
Of course this would imply that right up to that time, (prior to him assuming this particular overseer position) he was serving in a different capacity. That's wasn't to suggest that he'd never served as an overseer previously but only to say that as the result of Denis' departure, he was promoted to a quote "more desirable" position.
Just wanted to clear that up as I absolutely attempt to post credible and accurate information. I definitely understood your take on that Vic and I wanted to explain my statements so as not to give the impression that there was some sort of conflict between our accounts. Again, point well taken Vic.
Chief
Vic Said...
"I've read every note in the Dake bible, plus some of his books, and he never advocated the kind of twisted control practiced by the org."
Did you read this?
Finis Jennings Dake:
During Dake’s ministry in Zion, he was the center of a controversy. In 1937, he was convicted of violating the Mann Act by willfully transporting 16-year-old Emma Barelli across the Wisconsin state line “for the purpose of debauchery and other immoral practices.” The May 27, 1936, issue of the Chicago Daily Tribune reported that Dake registered at hotels in Waukegan, Bloomington, and East St. Louis with the girl under the name "Christian Anderson and wife". In order to avoid a jury trial and the possibility of being sentenced to a maximum of 10 years in prison and a fine of $10,000, Dake pled guilty. Subsequently, he served six months in the House of Corrections in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.[1] Though he maintained his innocence of intent, his ordination with the Assemblies of God was revoked and he later joined the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee). While it is not known why he later ended his relationship with the Church of God, it is known that he eventually became independent of any denomination.
Sound kind of familiar? Sounds a lot like Davis.
Sounds like these religious dudes have a history of becoming hucksters, swindlers and con men. Jumping from church to church before eventually realizing that if they are going to have things their way, they have to start their own group. Seems quite common. Interesting article. Having said that, of course I never knew Dake but I did know RWD the dupster, Kekel the con artist, Jones the yes man, and Olson the henchman.
I've said this many times before. Olson of the NTCC is Haman of the book of Esther. That's who Olson reminds me of. Haman. Olson is the bottom of the bucket. The slop that was left over and thrown in the pig pen. Olson is a dirty low down scoundrel.
Chief
How about this Huckster:
John Alexander Dowie (25 May 1847 – 9 March 1907) was a Scottish evangelist and faith healer who ministered in Australia and the United States. He founded the city of Zion, Illinois, and the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church. In 1882, he was invited to the Sackville Street Tabernacle, Collingwood. His authoritarian leadership led to a split in the church, and Dowie was fined and jailed for over a month for leading unauthorized processions. He gave his account of the incident in Sin in The Camp. After an arson scandal in which his church burnt down in suspicious circumstances (thereby enabling him to pay off large debts)[5] he moved to the United States in 1888. He first settled in San Francisco and built up a following by performing faith healings across the state.[6] His ministry, the International Divine Healing Association, was run largely as a commercial enterprise. All members were expected to tithe and, if they did, were eligible to request Dowie's aid in healing their ills. Such requests were made by mail or telegram (or later, by phone). Dowie would then pray in response to requests by paid-up members. Although Dowie funded his lifestyle largely through tithes, he also liked to buy up securities of bankrupt companies and sell them off to his constituents.[7] Unfortunately for Dowie, two women whom he had defrauded in this way took him to court and successfully sued him. In this aftermath of this legal and public relations defeat, Dowie moved to Chicago in 1890.
After a few unsuccessful years in Chicago, Dowie gained fame by renting property adjacent to the World's Fair in 1893. There he staged elaborate "Divine Healings" in front of large audiences. Many of these "healings" were staged using audience plants and other dubious methods. At other times carefully screened individuals were brought on stage to be healed.[8] By all indications Dowie could cure a range of psychosomatic illnesses with his stagecraft.
After developing his following through these methods, Dowie disbanded the International Divine Healing Association and formed the Christian Catholic Church in Zion in 1896. (He would rename it the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church in 1903.) He established several tabernacles and healing homes in the Chicago area, although he spent much of 1895 in court fighting allegations that he was practicing medicine without a license.[9] With a following of some approximately 6,000, he sought land north of Chicago and bought up a large amount of real estate secretly. In 1900, he announced the founding the city of Zion, 40 miles from Chicago, where he owned all the property personally. He established a theocratic political and economic structure and prohibited smoking, drinking, eating pork, and any form of modern medicine. He also established a range of businesses, healing homes, and a large Tabernacle. Followers from across the world descended on Zion. Zion has been characterized as "a carefully-devised large-scale platform for securities fraud requiring significant organizational, legal, and propagandistic preparation to carry out."[10] To this end Dowie forced his followers to deposit their wealth in Zion Bank, which had the veneer of being a registered entity but which was in fact an unincorporated entity under his control. He also sold worthless stock in an array of Zion's businesses.[11] The entire structure of Zion was continually in debt, and eventually crashed as he became increasingly senile.
Editorial cartoon by Bob Satterfield, depicting Dowie leaving Chicago with his pockets full of money
In 1905, he suffered a stroke in Mexico. While absent, he was deposed by Wilbur G. Voliva, his chief lieutenant,[2] Voliva and official investigators maintained that anywhere from $2.5 to 3.4 million was unaccounted for. Dowie attempted to recover his authority through litigation but was ultimately forced to accept an allowance until his death in 1907.[1] Dowie is buried in Lake Mound Cemetery, Zion, Illinois.
The question is whether there is a connection between these guys and Davis of Kekel? I'm interested in NTCC scandals.
Chief
Davis was supposedly a contemporary of Dake and said that he knew him. It looks like Davis got his game plan from Dake and other hucksters like Dowie.
For what it's worth, (and it is worth something being that I moderate this blog) I'm far more interested in NTCC stuff rather than Dake or Dowie or any other religious leaders outside the NTCC. I see the relevance but I've also ran this blog long enough to see good relevant NTCC material get lost in the shuffle. See where I'm going? Thanks. Sincerely,
Chief
I understand the connection but I also understand what draws the few readers that we have to this blog. They find more interest in real stories about the NTCC. Personal experiences. Those seem to draw the most involvement which quite obviously there is very little of. It's been that way for quite a few years. The google format is not the greatest for this purpose but it's what we have.
Chief
A few years back, the land deal got quite a bit of attention. Escrow accounts getting zero'd out got a lot of attention. Kekel's compromising like him attending the jazz festival got a good amount of attention. G. Kekel being allowed to do everything our kids were told not to got a good amount of attention. See where I'm going. The report of Kinson getting caught coming out of a whore house as reported by MDR got really good attention also. The split got plenty. Ashmore's departure has generated quite a bit. Just giving examples. The events and them being reported by credible verifiable witness has resulted in a lot of people leaving the NTCC and that's what we are all about here. That's the objective. NTCCers killing cats got some attention.
Chief
Reports of Davis' adulterous affairs got attention. Olson lying about Davis knowing about the split prior to it taking place got attention when Olson said that God kept if from Davis just for Olson's wife so say that was not true and Davis did know about it. Stuff like this raises people's eyebrows. The departure of different people leaving the NTCC like the Shunks and MDR got good attention. Briggs involvement in this blog got the attention of people. There were a few other NTCC ministers posting on this blog like MABA and concerned NTCC minister who definitely got people's attention. Arbitrary information about Non NTCC stuff just loses people. Just giving examples.
Chief
Anonymous wrote...
We specialize on digging up dirt on the Ntcc corrupt practices, not correcting their Doctrinal beliefs!
Chief wrote...
Basically that's what I'm saying. Let stick with the NTCC. I don't want threads to get swamped with 5 pages dealing with other religious hucksters.
I've got to wonder how difficult it is for them to get/meet their numbers at churches by military posts with all the bad publicity on the net, chaplains, testimonies and the like. They never had a big church at Campbell but it would never die out completely.
Mike
You might only have a few unique visitors chief but you might get multiple people viewing per IP address. I bet you have upwards of 80 people reading this per week and that means something. I don't know what it takes to do a blog but I appreciate it.
Your blog has informed me greatly over the past year or so. Yeah it can be entertaining and sometimes turn into something you may not want but in the end it's helpful to those who needed hope or freedom from guilt.
And the congregation said...Amen and Amen! Thanks Chief! You're the man!
mdr
"Did you read this?"
Oh, sure, but not in his notes...as far as I'm concerned, he was just another legalistic kook of questionable character. Davis did claim to have met him, but whether that's true, who knows?
I think NTCC plagiarized from Dake (the Genesis notes they sold us were copied verbatim with no attribution) because his theological system promoted the kind of hierarchical arrangement they favor. NTCC is all about authority and control. Mike may be trying to look all hip and relevant, but make no mistake; he's just promoting an oppressive patriarchy. I bet they're sweating now about whether Ashmore will decide to reveal their crimes. If he won't, it could be that he's concealing his own involvement. However, if he wants to be taken seriously, he's going to have to step up and come clean. He can't just pretend that he wasn't part of the problem and expect to garner any credibility.
Anon said...
I bet you have upwards of 80 people reading this per week
Chief said...
Again, for what it's worth it probably about that many per day based on the counter stats. Having said that, what really gets these blogs going is participation. When there is a lot of participation, there seems to be the greatest effect. Generally with the exception of a few, Vic, Mike, DnA, MDR and myself, there just isn't much participation and I'm just being real. There used to be, but much of this information is old news, (relevant nevertheless). Don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to sound negative, but because I've been at this for about 7 years now, I've not only read it all but, I've seen times where there were scores of different people posting. It was a lot more rewarding and interesting to see so many people involved and to see the effect that it was having on the NTCC with lots of ministers leaving and such. The testimonies from these ministers was really good info also.
Believe me, at this point, we've told it all. It's still good to know that this and other blogs are still having an effect and people are benefiting from them. That's what it was all about from the start anyway.
Chief
My name is matthew meinecke a former NTCC minister. I am down here in San Diego. I can say we have serveral former NTCC people and some ministers are also on the way. God is doing great things down here. God used Rev Ashmore to heal a woman in rite Aid yesterday. God is moving. Rev Ashmore is a friendly caring person who preaches Jesus and his power. Type JR. Ashmore into YouTube and watch our channel
Matt Meinecke,
Faith healing is a ministry that has been abused throughout time. Ashmore supposedly had a healing ministry before he left the ntcc, but not sure that he ever healed anyone of more than a sprained ankle or a common cold. He prayed for Julie when she was a little girl and supposedly her arm grew and she was healed of Cerebral Palsy. When her parents found out that she really wasn't healed she was told by them to pretend like she was healed. Faith healing is one of the biggest scams there is in the ministry.
Jesus healed people that were dying and opened the eyes of the blind. He rose people from the dead, but I doubt Ashmore could heal someone of a hangnail, much less a broken bone. People were dying all around Ashmore in the ntcc but his healing ministry didn't seem to reach out to them. If anyone did get healed under Ashmore, it was probably because of their own faith and prayers. They were probably healed in spite of Ashmore's showmanship. If someone is healed that's wonderful, but where does God fit in to all this. Ashmore didn't have his Epiphany of Grace until the ntcc cash flow was restricted.
I have a brother named Duane that lives in San Diego. Have Ashmore find him in one of the mental hospitals or halfway houses in San Diego and Heal him. Get a video of it. He has some serious problems and it would be an absolute miracle if Ashmore could heal him. He's had issues since high school and probably doesn't even know his own first name anymore. They used to have to strap him to a table and use shock treatment on him to get him to calm down. He would spit on anyone who came near him. If Ashmore can find him and heal him I might believe his healing ministry is real. Jesus healed people like my brother.
By the way, my brother went to Taylor's church many years ago and that seemed to set him back more than it helped him. Search the mental institutes and the halfway houses. Healing a sprained ankle or whatever it was in Wallgreens does not give back the people the years of their lives that were wasted in the ntcc under Ashmore's regime. Do a wiki search on faith healing and see how much of it has been exposed as fraud.
Matt,
I'm glad you left the NTCC and I hope that you do good things going forward.
I'm skeptical.
Mike
Matt not sure if you're just full of it but who are some preachers coming with you? I'm hoping some of the guys I know will leave.
JR Ashmore used to be my pastor, and was instrumental in luring me into NTCC. He could preach like no other. RW Davis did keep him under his thumb, no doubt because he viewed him as a threat. In sixteen years, I never saw any dramatic healings take place, other than the random headache or other undocumentable malady. During that time, there were plenty of folks with diabetes, cancer, and other debilitating conditions, and deaths occurred on a regular basis. It would have been more credible to see some of those people get healed, but none did.
My whole problem with him now is that he is well aware of the criminal activities of NTCC, but has chosen not to reveal any of it. I suppose that it's because he himself was complicit--he was an officer of the corporation and surely had knowledge of the improprieties. If he's for real, let him come forth and expose these criminals for what they are, regardless of the personal consequences it may bring. Are we to believe that he was totally clueless? That's hard to swallow. Any competent forensic accountant could nail them after five minutes examining the books. JR Ashmore could furnish the impetus for a real investigation because he has inside knowledge, so why won't he? If he did come forward, he'd probably get some lenience and maybe even immunuty. But he hasn't. His own skin is more important than justice, apparently. Buyer beware.
Briggs died of cancer under Ashmore's reign. Why didn't Ashmore go to see Briggs, (who we all know was dying of cancer). Why didn't he heal him? Why didn't he heal RWD. Why didn't Ashmore heal all the other's who've died? I flat out don't buy it. I've been to one of Ashmore's healing services and it was phony bologna. I will say this and what I'm going to say is the truth whether it's just circumstantial or not. One brother went up to the front and told Ashmore that he wanted to pray for money. Ashmore had him pull his wallet out and wave it around in the air with the wallet open. Ok here we are 8 years later. This guy, who also left the NTCC about 7 years ago, and who is one of my closest friends, is doing very, very well financially. He is renting one house and he bought another and he is retired now at the age of (I believe) 33.
Now, does that mean that Ashmore's healing, money making ministry worked? I kind of doubt it, especially knowing the circumstances behind my friends success, but having said that, it is mildly coincidental.
My friend was in the military before he ever met Ashmore, and he was awarded a significant amount of money due to serious military related disabilities so I'm really not giving Ashmore much or any credit but having said that, I just figured I'd share the story. In my opinion, Ashmore is a straight up phony. I never had Ashmore help me pray for money and I do fine, so the point is, the vast majority of people who are financially well off never once had a faith healer pray that they'd find them self in that position. They simply worked or in the case of my friend, submitted the necessary documents to justify a considerable disability claim.
I don't trust Ashmore because while he was in the NTCC he was a straight up crook and there can be no disputing that fact. All he did one night in the serviceman's home in Columbus was knock every other Christian denomination he could dream of for about an hour straight. Is that supposed to be what Christianity is all about? If it is, I don't want it.
Chief
I remember hounding my mother to go drive from Denver to Colorado Springs, (about 75 miles), because I thought that if she could hear him preach, she would really get in. She didn't really want to drive that far but I persuaded her to go anyway. She said that Ashmore was the coldest man she ever met. At the time, I thought the problem was her and I told her as much.
Looking back, my mom had a heart of Gold. She used to have me roll joints for her and she did a lot of questionable things, but she started going to an Assemblies of God church and she changed, but not in a hypocritical judgmental way like I did. I thought Ashmore was the greatest preacher on earth at the time, but my mom had him pegged. She later came under scrutiny by the Tiemans because she wouldn't completely conform to their holiness standards.
I wish I could go back in time and that I would have listened to her. She was a better example of Christianity than the low down ntcc thugs that I was hanging around. It was such hypocrisy to look down on others because we were the only true believers, or so we thought.
Matthew Mienecke said..."Rev Ashmore is a friendly caring person who preaches Jesus and his power."
Hello, Matthew! Welcome to the Blog. I admire your courage for coming in to the den of "Daniels". I worked with J R Ashmore and his wife in the ministry and I think that they are nothing more than opportunist looking to capitalize on a situation for their own gain.
When we were together in the Philippines we spent countless hours driving with the Ashmores from one duty free store to another shopping, shopping, shopping, for nothing but junk! I have never met two people who appear more covetous than them. Almost everyday we would head to the duty free stores/malls, and walk the isles as if they got something new that we've never seen before.
I will never forget the time that the Ashmores dropped us off outside of a duty free store for the purpose doing some "soulwinning" and told us that they would be back in a while. It was very hot and humid that day and my wife was ill. The Ashmore's were at the Memosa Hotel enjoying a wonderful lunch buffet while we waited for them for over 2 hrs. I can't tell you how that made us feel, especially after I found out where they had been.
Not to mention the mind games this dude would play. Working with him was like working with Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He was always playing some kind of game as if he was trying to catch me up and then he could bring a report back to Davis and get me in trouble. He could be very "Kooky" at times. And at other times it was a real joy to be with them. Being with them was one of the weirdest times in our ministry. I always found myself on edge around him because I knew that at any moment his disposition toward me could change.
Matthew, for what it's worth, I believe that Rev. J R Ashmore would still have his chain linked to R W Davis if he was still alive!
It seems to me that Rev. J R Ashmore waited until Davis died and then decided to cut an run. Why? Because he knew that the gravy train had come to a screeching halt. He backed Davis' cruel reign all the way to the end and would still be there backing his play if he was still alive.
I'm glad that people are leaving the NTCC because of his departure, but if they leave them to follow him, are they any better off? Probably not!
That said, I believe that people can and do change, but I must say that I'm highly suspicious of the timing of James Ashmore's awakening to the truth.
mdr
I thought the same thing--my parents went to my ordination service at a conference at Holly Hills around 1984, and Ashmore preached a message called "The Fingerprint of God," about how David surrounded himself with a band of men whose hearts God had touched. I was under the spell and when my parents were unimpressed I thought it was just evidence of their own unspirituality. During the same conference they tried to warn me about RW, but I got all mad and denounced them as tools of the devil. They told me that while they were watching my daughter during the service, she fell asleep under the pew and rolled forward up against Verna's feet, and the old hag just kicked her. I refused to believe it and accused them of fabricating things to poison my mind, but now I'm sure it happened just like they said.
You know you have people brainwashed when they can ignore things that happen right in front of their eyes. We were conditioned to regard any criticism of the "apostle" or his cronies as directly from the devil, just like Pavlov's dogs salivated for the dinner bell. We were putty in their hands. The general public discounts mind control and scoffs at people who are under the thrall of another. But it's a well-documented phenomenon. Charles Manson went to prison for murder, even though he never directly assaulted any of the victims. Those without conscience have no problem violating others like that, and the NTCC is full of them (especially at the top).
MDR, I thought the timing suspicous too, because RW was the king of this corrupt empire, and JR enabled him to the very hilt. He promoted RW worship almost as much as his cohort, Joe Olson. He was one of the original graduating class who was there when RW was caught in those adulterous affairs, and became a pillar of the corrupt organization that was a mere extension of his twisted personality. The way it has played out makes it look like he had zero problems with anything RW ever did. It would have been more credible if he'd have advanced his criticisms of NTCC before the founder kicked the bucket, because it appears that what he's now criticizing are longstanding practices that even he himself had a part in promoting and enforcing. I'll believe he's changed when he shows evidence of real change. So far there is none. Until he steps up to the plate and spill his guts like the rest of us, he's just a poser.
Yes indeed. There is no doubt that Ashmore's departure was the direct result of RWD's death and additionally, certain tension between he and Kekel. Word is, there is tension between Kekel and Olson also. I don't know that for a fact but I consider this information credible due to it's source. Not only that it makes sense. Kekel is a spoiled brat who wants things his way and he's a know it all and he's in charge of the NTCC. I can see where that would cause problems between he and Ashmore and Olson, especially with Davis the enabler being gone. Davis was going to support Olson and Ashmore and that fact was self evident and I'm sure that Kekel was jealous, NO DOUBT.
Chief
Vic said..."JR Ashmore used to be my pastor, and was instrumental in luring me into NTCC. He could preach like no other."
Vic, I have to agree with you that Ashmore could preach like no other. Some of the best sermons/messages that I have ever heard in my life were preached by him. And it's no doubt that the NTCC lost their best Preacher when he departed. He can preach circles around M C Kekel the Schmekel! Michael's sermons were nothing more than rants, while Ashmore's were filled with inspiration. But in the words of the Apostle Paul I Cor. 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." In my observation Ashmore always came off like he didn't care about people.
Kekel the Schmekel definitely doesn't care about anybody but himself!
mdr
I haven't watched too many of the Ashmore YouTubes, but from what I have seen, he seems pretty lackluster in comparison to the past. I suppose it's better that he isn't relying on homiletic pyrotechnics to suck people in, but it's a weird juxtaposition to the memories I have of him setting the house on fire. Maybe I was just more easily impressed back then. He seems distracted and almost robotic now, like he's just repeating phrases he's used thousands of times.
You're right that he can be cold. He came up here once and preached for a week. We had this lady named Natalia who was coming, and we were trying to get her "in." He preached at her and later found fault with her, saying she was ignoring him and leafing through her bible. He seemed to take the attitude that we were wasting our time with her. I know that he didn't have much patience with people who didn't get with the program.
As far as "soul winning," RW always taught us that the pastor was supposed to be the chief soul winner (an idea he got from Jack Hyles, I believe). JR sent us out in Tillicum, but I never knew him to go himself. Of course, I never knew RW to do it either, and if you think about it, he had no converts of his own at all, unless you count a handful of old timers like Sisters Cyrus, Duell, and Norton, whom he may or may not have "won" himself. They both were great at laying burdens on us that they wouldn't touch with a finger.
I sat under Ashmores ministry for several years, and knew him to be a prayerful man and a studier of the Word, which are 2 key ingredients for any who would preach the gospel of Christ. I know that he spent several years trying to reform or change NTCC from the inside. He believed that he could work with Kekel to facilitate change, but realized after several years of beating his head against that wall that no substantive change would be forthcoming. He has confessed publicly that he regrets the manner in which he preached in the past. He is committed to preaching Christ and Him crucified. He would agree with any of you that he is not capable of healing anything or anyone. He is not a holder of Real Estate, he purchased two homes during his time in NTCC, the first while pastoring in Tillicum, 1751 95th St. Tacoma Wa. which he and his family lived in until he went to the Phillipines as a missionary. that home was used as a dorm for a few years, then sold. When he returned from the Phillipines he purchased a home at 7148 Alabama which Chris Kinson remodeled for him. This home was sold to another NTCC minister. Neither of these homes were mansions.
When he resigned from NTCC he forsook a salary not large but adequate. His time in NTCC, and his departure were never about money. He gave away far more money then he ever made. He told me recently that he believed that God gave NTCC a space to repent and that he is thankful that he escaped with his soul intact. Those who expect him to reveal things that he knows from confidential board meetings are waiting in vain. His wife told me that once he was promoted to VP of the Organization she was happy that maybe they would no longer have to ask permission to fellowship with others in the org., only to find that this was not the case. The cultish control of this group over peoples lives from the top to the bottom is insidious to say the least. I queried him about his knowledge about Organizational finances only to learn that titles like World Missions Director did not mean he ever saw those books or had a say in how much support Missionaries and their helpers received. The money is closely held and controlled by the top 2/3 period. He and his wife are victims of abuse and mind control tactics as were the rest of us. These things I learned because instead of flinging stones from afar, I picked up the phone and called them. I am interested in seeing what God has in store for them as they recover from the same Cult we were all trapped in. If God is in their ministry it will prosper.
"Not Joe Olson"
Uh, I'm pretty sure he was Secretary/Treasurer at one time, and signed legal documents under that title. It's reasonable to expect that such a position would entail knowledge of the finances, but then again, we are dealing with RW and and his twisted organization, so it's conceivable that he just had these other guys around to rubber stamp everything without actual knowledge of the details. Nevertheless, if Phil Kinson and even the office workers knew that bank deposits were being split up to avoid bank reporting threshholds, it's hard to believe he wouldn't have known that also. But maybe adulation for his idol RW blinded him to it.
Hey, I hope he's for real and will defend him publicly if that proves so, but maybe he's the one who should be picking up the phone and contacting those he helped oppress for decades to clear some of these things up. For what it's worth, he never appeared to be as materialistically driven as others on the board, and neither of his houses was in the least bit extravagant.
RW's ministry prospered. Was he of God?
"Not Joe Olson" said..."Those who expect him to reveal things that he knows from confidential board meetings are waiting in vain."
Vic, you were right! Ashmore can't come forward because he was just as much part of the scams as Davis.
This "Not Joe Olson" fella is nothing more than damage control for Ashmore. He's on here trying to run interference for Ashmore so that he can amass a following.
Hey, "Not Joe Olson" you said that Ashmore was trying to facilitate change on the inside for years. Well, inquiring minds would like to know what kind of change? We don't want to hear from you either, tell your "Prophet of change" to come on here and set the record straight for all to read and know. Otherwise we might think that you and him are full of horse manure!
mdr
Vic, I wouldn't characterize RW's ministry as prosperous or a success. He made a lot of money, none of which he was able to take with him. The ex members outnumber the current members, subtract his cultish controlling ways and it could have been something great. It's a mere shell of what it could have been. When I say if Ashmores minstry is of God it will prosper, I'm not talking about money, I'm talking about souls. Mdr, I apologize for somehow raising your hackles, my 2 cents is worth the same as yours, but you always did have a high opinion of yourself as your former members have attested. "Not Joe Olsen"
Vic said..."For what it's worth, he never appeared to be as materialistically driven as others on the board, and neither of his houses was in the least bit extravagant."
Vic, Ashmore lived very extravagantly! Just before I departed the borg. we were invited over to the Ashmores house for fellowship one night. He was living in Kekel the Schmekel's 1st mansion up the road from the campus. That place looked like a Palace decorated with all the fine furnishings that he bought while traveling from city to city on shopping spree's...I mean performing the duties of an overseer.
The Ashmores are very extravagant to say the least. His house in the Philippines was also pretty extravagant as well.
mdr
Hey, "No Not Joe" Don't you have some Ashmore interference to run? I don't have a high opinion of myself, but this one thing that I do know and that is you and your Prophet of change are full of Horse manure!
mdr
Hey, "No Not Joe" why don't you tell us who you are. Are you ashamed? Or could it be that you're just a coward, opportunist, like your "Prophet of change?"
mdr
You chose to attack me mdr, why is that? If I have said some thing that is untrue why not refute that. I'm not interested in helping Ashmore amass a following, I'm interested in seeing souls saved, not abused. I believe that if the Ashmores minstry is of God it will prosper, if not it won't. I don't believe my or your opinion on the matter will affect it's outcome. Keep flinging manure and you'll wind up with stinky hands Matt :)
Wow. Sounds like we have differing opinions here. Thats good stuff. Like i said previously. I never had much involvement with Ashmore. The one time I was around Ashmore, all he did for at least 1 hour was discredit virtualy every other Christian denomination he could think of, and I mean a bunch of them. A whole bunch, and trust me, the NTCC wasn't one of them. I never forgot that.
When the whole denomination bashing session was over, I felt so unfulfilled like there had been nothing edifying said whatsoever. The whole phony healing service was quite the circus act also. These are MY memories of Ashmore. Having said that I'm quite glad he left the NTCC. I hope he rips that cult in two. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. In Ashmores case not really but you get the point.
Chief
There is one thing we all do agree on here. The NTCC is a sick sad sorry org run by a bunch of control freaky deaks. The JWs prosper. A bank robber who gets away with it prospers. Creflo Dollar prospers in terms of what many consider to be "saved souls". Souls getting saved is a non tangible relative. What one person considers a saved soul another considers a brainwashed cult follower.
Chief
Is Ashmore helping the needy fatherless and widow? Is he helping the hungry? Is he raising money for the sick?
Does Ashmore advocate paying tithe?
Does anyone know the answers to these questions?
"No Not Joe" said..."You chose to attack me mdr, why is that?"
Why don't you answer the questions that I asked you? You come on here and speak as an authority for Ashmore. You claim that he tried to bring change on the inside of NTCC. Well, I ask you again, what kind of change? Please elaborate!
You call me by my 1st name. Please give me the same privilege of knowing to whom I am communicating with. Otherwise you have no credibility with me.
mdr
ThIs is not MDR and I am only interested the answer to one question. Does Ashmore advocate paying tithe?
Anon, you have posted very relevant questions. Questions that Mr. "No Not Joe" can probably answer right now.
mdr
Chief, that last post of yours was awesome!
mdr
Not Joe Olson, I know who you are and understand what you are doing. I really have nothing but love and respect for you, but I have to agree with Vic. Ashmore should be the one picking up the phone and making calls. If all of the hucksters in the ntcc were to be given a playing card like the criminals in Sadam's Army were given, Ashmore would for sure be given the Ace and now that Davis is dead, probably the Ace of Spades. I'm not sure why you chose to back Ashmore with only the defense of his own words. I know that you took all of the other Hucksters in the ntcc at face value. I also have to agree with MDR that Ashmore has lived extravagantly. I know that mansion that belongs to Kekel was his domain for quite some time and since the time I joined the borg in 83, he certainly hasn't done without.
I think you are asking the wrong questions. Here are some very relevant questions I would ask him.
1. Do you still require people to pay tithe contrary to the New Testament and do you attach an ultimatum of hell mandate.
2. Are you willing to open your books to the public and show some transparency to those who have been cheated by ministers like you in the past? They have the right to know to what extent you are prospering off of their money.
3. What kind of ministering do you do for the poor, the fatherless, the widow, etc?
4. What was the roll that you played in the Moreno tragedy? Did you really go to Japan and jack him up without knowing the details, or will you admit to knowingly disparaging the man to protect Kinson? Whatever his roll actually was in this incident, people deserve to know. You can't have repentance without confession. If he came out and explained his roll in this one tragedy and admitted any wrong doing, I would have more respect for him.
5. There are others who have given their names and associated him with running them out of the organization and a few other allegations that include personal details that we won't go into, but Ashmore should be asked about those allegations because the people that spoke up gave their names and suffered a degree of shame by outing themselves.
Not Joe Olson, I don't think that these questions are too far out of line, if we are to accept Ashmore as just another abuse victim. I've heard Vic, Chief, MDR and even you admit to specific things that they all took part in while in the ntcc. Much of it was learned behavior. I have spilled my guts on a lot of things and have many regrets for the way I've treated people. I've tried to hunt people down so I could apologize for ever getting them involved in the ntcc. I haven't seen any humility or remorse on Ashmore's part. He hasn't tried to make things right. It seems like you are giving him a pass just because he left the ntcc. Denis left and nobody gave him a pass. Just being honest.
This is a picture of the last Mansion that Ashmore lived in. It is now listed in Kekel's Name. Click link above this comment, "Ashmore's Mansion".
Eric Barden helped build the Mansion that Kekel and Ashmore both lived in at separate times. While Davis was preaching that people should have a flow restricter placed on their personal showers to save money, James and Helen were living in this monstrosity with a hot tub and Jacuzzi installed in it.
Wooohooo. We all seem to agree on this one. Like I said, my experience with Mr. Ashmore was anything but memorable at least from a positive standpoint. I was certainly memorable from a negative one. I'm still glad he left but it would be nice to see him come clean because he was far more than simply a victim, (which I feel he was as well); just in a different capacity. He was one of the main perpetrators of abuse, cover-up and double standards. He enabled Davis and Olson. Olson is a scum bag, plain and simple.
If you were involved in a bank robbery, and you were the get-away driver, would you simply get let off the hook because it wasn't you who walked out with the money? Of course not, and Ashmore was not only the get away driver but one of the guys who held a gun in the bank tellers face. He also covered the guy, (namely Davis) who shot the security officer and took all the money. Not only that, he helped Davis frivolously spend the money as has been reported by a KNOWN witness, namely MDR who we all know. At best, from what we know, he was an accessory to all crimes. At worst he was actually the direct perpetrator to one degree or another.
There is only one area that Vic and I don't agree, and Vic, I say this respectfully without any intent to discredit you. Just a difference of opinion. I personally would not expect Ashmore, under any circumstances, to come clean with information that could potentially get him incarcerated. Self preservation is a man's natural tenancy almost without exception. If I were in Ashmore's shoes, there is no way I'd implicate myself in any illegal activities that could be punishable by law. I'm being real. I have no desire to go to prison and live a considerable portion of my life behind bars and I wouldn't expect Ashmore to want to live that way either. So yes, I don't blame the guy for wanting to cover his own butt.
Does that mean that I think he's clean? Of course not. We all agree on that. In fact I believe he's anything but!! I think he's ruined countless lives along side Davis, Olson, Kekel and the rest. Jones is an enabler along with Johnson, Defrancesco, Gesang, Kinson and any of the other head honchos up there in Graham. This ain't rocket science. It's painfully obvious what the NTCC has been up to for decades.
Having said that, it would be righteous if he, at a minimum, admitted to black listing and damaging the lives of countless people while giving specific examples of the hypocrisy that's been perpetuated specifically by guys like Olson and Kekel. But see, he likely won't do that because you can't throw stones when you live in a glass house and that's just the bottom line.
So Ashmore is quite naturally, (in my opinion), (as we've all concluded) in self preservation mode and anyone is free do disagree with me, but if I were in his shoes I'd probably be doing the same thing. I have no interest in being locked behind bars because I enjoy my current life far too much.
I'm sorry but a guilty conscience wouldn't result in me sending myself to prison, thank you. That's just me and I make no apologies for that fact.
The difference between me and Ashmore is that I didn't leave the NTCC and suddenly act like I'm some righteous dude who's now ready to quote, "save" the world. In that regard, I can confidently say that none of us disagree.
Chief
Yeah DnA, that's a pretty large house indeed. Doesn't look like Ashmore was living on pork and beans. Cool info.
Maybe one of the reasons that people don't post is because they don't type that fast? Maybe? I don't know. Typing is like a second language to me. I type while I think. Nothing painful about it for me. I kind of like typing I think. I guess it's because I like talking. Not a good trait but it is what it is. I know myself and I'm secure with who I am.
I enjoy life a lot. I love life and I'm very pleased to have it. My life has been so good. I couldn't ask for a better one. I'm not a religious dude but I have to say that I feel that God has been very good to me. Again,
Chief
If the previous link doesn't work (for Ashmore's mansion that he listed as his address while registered as an NTCC Board Member), try this one:
Mansion Click Here
The link works fine. Like I said before, large house. The NTCC leaders swap houses like we swap 1 dollar bills at the golf course playing a dollar a hole. Oooops, I almost forgot, that's sin right? Woe is me. NOT!!!
Chief
Most of the ministers that own houses in the Bonco have transferred ownership back over to the ntcc. Not sure exactly what the reason is but I would guess that the ntcc benefits more than the minister who signed it back over to them. MDR might know more about that, not sure.
Some of the bonco residents have reported that they couldn't leave the cult compound for more than a couple of hours without getting permission or approval on excursions that take them away for three hours or more. Others have said that they can't have unsaved loved ones visit them in the double gated community. These are grown adults and licensed ministers that are entrusted with the eternal destiny of the unsaved world. Pastor, "Can I go to the Bathroom"?
God help us!
If this is the last hope for our dying world, we are in serious trouble.
"When he resigned from NTCC he forsook a salary not large but adequate."
What do these weasel words actually mean? How about a dollar figure so the reader can decide its relative size? It was probably large compared to the average NTCC schmuck but numbers would be helpful. Was it $30K? 50? 200?
I believe it's absolutely possible that he was getting nickeled and dimed by RW, because he would rip off anyone he could. I could see him "letting" one of the biggest producer (he probably was the biggest in terms of sending people to BS) in NTCC live in someone else's mansion while he gave him a title instead of the cash he was hoarding for himself...RW would absolutely do that if he could get away with it. Not to mention he was probably seething with jealousy because a deaf person could tell that he far surpassed him in preaching ability.
DnA said..."MDR might know more about that, not sure."
I did live in "Boncoville" for a while until Davis decided to send us off to the Philippines to work with the Ashmore's.
I personally was never offered to buy a house from Davis, but it was known that houses were sold in the NTCC without deed transfers. Davis was not stupid! He wasn't about to give up real estate that belonged to the borg. But he would definitely take your $ though. This kind of business is illegal, but Davis thought himself above the law.
This is why the NTCC wants it's renters/owners to pay their monthly fee's in cash...no paper trail! Ashmore cannot, will not, ever admit that this kind of business was going on because of what Chief just explained in a previous post. Self preservation baby!
Don said ..."Others have said that they can't have unsaved loved ones visit them in the double gated community." Don, when we returned from Guam, Davis once again offered me a house in "Boncoville", but we refused! We knew that we wouldn't be able to have our loved ones over because of that very rule. Secondly we knew that that was their way of trapping us financially. Once you payed your rent and all the other bills associated with living in "Boncoville" you were just about broke. So if you wanted to leave the borg from there it would be somewhat difficult. I have often thought that there are people that live up there that want to leave the borg., but can't because of this reason.
mdr
My name is matthew meinecke a former NTCC minister. I am down here in San Diego. I can say we have serveral former NTCC people and some ministers are also on the way. God is doing great things down here. God used Rev Ashmore to heal a woman in rite Aid yesterday. God is moving. Rev Ashmore is a friendly caring person who preaches Jesus and his power. Type JR. Ashmore into YouTube and watch our channel
And just for the record...The Ashmores never had to live a beggarly life style. They lived like royalty in the Philippians, and everywhere else for that matter.
And if Ashmore is begging forgiveness all over the world for his mistreatment of others, I wonder if he has contacted his 1st daughter-in-law and begged her forgiveness for their treatment toward her and their grandchild! Hummm!!!!
mdr
I'm sorry Matthew Meinecke, but you come off a little weird! just saying!
mdr
Matthew Meinecke wrote...
God is moving.
Chief wrote...
Typical NTCC rhetoric. What does, "God is moving" actually mean. Does it mean the God is traveling from one place to another? Does it mean he just rolled over in bed from a mid days nap or that he just got up from his throne? I'm saying all that to make a point.
Sayings like that sound so fake and religious. I listed to a gentleman who had been greeted by a lady, (just the other day) respond with, "I'm blessed and highly favored". That is so fake it not even funny and so is "God is moving". You don't have a clue one way or another what God is doing. NTCC pastors used to make that statement all the time and it got sickening. God is moving God is moving God is moving. God ain't moving nothing. That's that charismatic garbage in an attempt to make people think something supernatural is going on out of the ordinary when in reality ain't nothing going on.
I'll tell you what's moving. Everyone getting all emotional when Jim preaches doing all his fake healing services the likes of which I sat through one time in Columbus GA.
The old emotional lady crying in the front row who's had sex with 50 guys is the one who's moving because she figures it might be time to repent. That's who's moving. And she is moving towards the brother in the front row who likes to watch her body bouncing all over the place every time she starts getting all emotional when Jim starts laying hands on her. That's who's moving.
Stop with the phony rhetoric. I'll tell you when God is moving. When your church goes down to the ghetto and starts cooking on a grill and feeding the homeless and needy and they see how much love you have for your fellow man. When did God "move" or better put, "take action" in the book of Acts?
For Cornelius of the Italian band. And why? One of the reasons was because he gave much alms to the people. So start giving to the people and stop soaking people in the church for every dime you can get out of them and then maybe God will take action and maybe he won't. "God is moving" is way superstitious and blank religious rhetoric.
Chief
Hey chief! God is moving! He's moving people right out of the NTCC.
Good post, my funky brutha!
mdr
So Matt--what is the teaching on tithes down there in Jesus Revival land?
Olson used to say garbage like that all the time.
"Seemingly God was moving when I started to pray". Seemingly? Did it seem like he was or did it seem like he wasn't. "And seemingly God was trying to tell me something". I wonder which way it seemed? Well seemingly Olson is a stone cold crook, conniving henchman who likes calling people at 2:30am for a stupid church report that is too important to wait till a normal person wakes up. No, that ain't "seemingly" that's a fact. It doesn't seem like anything, it is something and it is the truth.
One time Cantrell got totally pissed off at Mayers for calling him at 2:30 in the morning and he got upset right in front of everyone. Then Mayers responded like the religious prick that he was with, "my pastor can call me up at anytime day or night and it's all for the work of the Lord".
What about common decency you jerk. Ever thought about that one? You like getting woke up at 2:30 in the morning you jerk. One time that prick preached in church about how he deliberately would wake up his wife at 0 dark thirty, just to get her up to fix him a cup of coffee to make sure she remained submissive. What a jerk. I'm not making that up either. That's exactly what he said he did.
Olson is the same way. I can't stand that guy. Call me up a 0 dark thirty and I'll chew your butt out and put your number on a blocked list so you can't call anymore to my house from that phone. I'd tell Olson flat out not to ever call my house before 10am ever again. That's just me.
Seemingly my butt.
Chief
It appears that Matthew Meinecke is the Associate Pastor of Ashmore's new church. He used to rail against us on the blogs for speaking out against the ntcc. He's a nutjob that is included in Ashmores video montage and preaches a lot like your run of the mill ntcc preacher. He thought our Youtube video of the Bonco was dumb because we pointed out that it was a gated community and told us as much in a comment he left. This guy is out there. His video was published on the 30th of March and he said something huge was going to happen during the 3rd blood moon which took place on the 3rd of April. He has his face two inches in front of the Camera and speaks like he's intoxicated. If you want a good laugh you got to check this out.
Click here to see video
Even Davis used to teach against end of time preachers. This guy is going to do nothing but tarnish Ashmores reputation.
He's talking about the 3rd blood moon being a sign of the rapture, while the ntcc taught that those signs took place after the rapture. We have a first class Kook here and he is supposedly Ashmores Associate Pastor according to his Youtube videos. He also says that it's not too late after the rapture to make it right, while Ashmore and the Davis taught that after the rapture God would turn back to the Jews and deal with them. All others would be sent a strong delusion and believe a lie. So it appears that some new visions have come to Ashmore about the same time that he left the ntcc. End of time preachers are good at getting people to dig deep into their pockets and give money. That's what all this is about.
Hey, Mathew M., how about some clarification on your prophesy? You said something really huge was going to happen on the 3rd of April as a sign of the rapture? Are you a false prophet or a gold digger?
I think Matt is not whom he says he is. He's someone trying to stir crap or it's Ashmore himself. I have trouble believing he'd post on here.
Just sayin' Mike
Somebody said..."He has his face two inches in front of the Camera and speaks like he's intoxicated. If you want a good laugh you got to check this out."
I thought the same thing when viewing the videos. If you're going to get that close to the camera then at least floss and brush your teeth.
Matthew Meinecke, you do appear to be very "Kooky!" Stick to the message of the cross my man and you'll be just fine. Leave the prophesying up to Rev. Ashmore. He's very well versed in Eschatology.
mdr
Mike said...
I have trouble believing he'd post on here.
Chief said...
I believe it is him. Go to the previous thread, comment 164 posted on 12 Apr and click on either his screen name URL or the little image. When you pull up the page go to "about". It pulls his name up and email address and place of employment.
He is likely the one who posted the original message with link. He is a nut, flat out. The real deal. Both he and Ashmore are nuttier than fruit cakes. Look at the video of him talking about the blood moon. That dude is out there. He's sat through too many charismatic messages. Brainwashed to the max. Hey and for the record, I'm not suggesting that the book of Revelation is inaccurate at all, but I've heard so many false prophesies out of these NTCC preachers to last me a life time.
Back in the 80s they'd talk something about the year 2002 being the end. Well that's come and gone. I'm supposed to be broke living in poverty with everything going wrong in my life because I left the NTCC and Oooops, the opposite has happened.
Briggs was supposed to be healed by some nut online making the claim by faith, and the Briggs passed away within about a week of that prophesy. So much for that claim of faith. I don't buy this stuff. The guy (MM) is a nut who has become way, way too over religious, superstitious and charismatic. I could be wrong but I suspect that it would be near impossible to have a logical sensible conversation with MM.
Matt Meinecke, you need to come back down to earth and stop being so superstitious. Today is the 13th and the world is still here the last time I checked. Making false prophesies makes you look nutty, silly and kooky and I'm just being real. Take it for what it's worth. And Ashmore, he's talking some nonsense about how the spirit takes up the whole body or something completely having no functional relevance to anything including organized religion. I could care less what part of my body my spirit takes up and not only that, Ashmore is talking about something he has no verifiable tangible knowledge of anyway. These guys are out there.
They are cult leaders to the max. Jim Jones and whoever else you can think of. These dudes are out there.
Chief
MDR wrote...
If you're going to get that close to the camera then at least floss and brush your teeth.
Chief said...
Hahahaha. ROFLOL. That was funny man. Don't you know? His teeth are spirits living in his mouth. They will be white as snow one day when the blood moon takes him away so he's not worried about flossin.
Chief
The dude's eyes are as big as golf balls. Maybe when the blood moon happens on the 3rd of April, he won't need his eyes anymore and I can use them on Friday when I go to the golf course playing a dollar a hole. I'll get a hole in one with those buggers.
Chief
Hey M&M,
I'm just having fun. No offense man. Seriously though. You are too superstitious dude. If you think something is going to happen, just keep it to yourself. That way you won't look too stupid in case it doesn't.
Most of the cult organizations that spring up have an end of days preacher that brings forth a false prophesy that the end of the world is going to take place at a certain time. If Mathew Meinecke were to knock on my door and I was to look through the peak hole and see that face, I wouldn't even answer the door. Hide your women and children, call the police, but don't let that guy in the house. There is no way I'm going to attend a church and listen to someone like him drone on about the end of the world.
Maybe Ashmore keeps M&M around for protection, just in case. MDR can I borrow your glock just in case this guy comes by the house? That is one scary looking dude. His eyes look like blood moons. I was waiting for him to start howling at any moment. He's probably the guy that Ashmore sends out to collect when people are late paying their tithe. He should travel a little ways up the coast and see if he could get a gig in Holywood playing the dude that breaks your legs when you don't pay the mob boss his cut.
Here's your answer about tithe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b_25IcaEKc
Anonymous said...
Here's your answer about tithe:
DNA said:
I watched that video it starts off with Ashmore teaching that Abraham was blessed and then he paid tithe on all. Then Ashmore goes on to say that first Abraham is blessed and then he is obedient, referring to obedience as if it were a commandment for Abraham to pay tithe.
First of all, Ashmore is incorrect when he says Abraham paid tithes on "all". He paid tithes only on the spoils of war, not on "all". Secondly, Abraham gave tithe to God not out of obedience because he was commanded to by God, but he did it out of free will, not being asked or commanded to. Ashmore emphasized tithe as a measure of obedience in his opening statement.
Nowhere does he renounce tithe as he does holiness nor does he say that he doesn't accept tithe. I can tell by his surroundings that Ashmore is living in a nice house in a nice area. If you look at the room that Nin Ashmore is teaching in you can see money dripping everywhere and there is nothing wrong with that if you are earning it.
I will say that Ashmore has changed his teaching on tithe and later in the video he says that salvation doesn't come through works, tithe or soul winning. It sounded like he has learned a lot of his new doctrine from the blogs, but I still think he is a huckster and that without demanding tithe, he collects a bunch of it.
A little research about "paying" tithe. There is only one verse in the bible that uses pay tithe in any form and that is Mat. 23:23 where Jesus says to the Pharisees: Woe unto you Pharisees, Hypocrites. They were paying tithe of mint, and anise and cummin, while omitting the weightier matters of the law like judgment, mercy and faith.
Ashmore and many others use the language, paying tithe, like it is a bill or something.
In the Ashmore video you will not find one place where he says that you don't have to pay tithe. He clarifies a little later in his video that grace comes first and then "the other", which implies that once you are saved, then you pay your tithe.
Who knows. I watched the video and I'd have to hear a whole lot more out of him to ever make any determination one way or the other concerning his beliefs on tithing. I thought he hinted around a bit but that was about it. He certainly wouldn't get my money. That's the one thing I did learn from the NTCC. Not to "blindly" trust anyone.
Lets say I met Ashmore, and previously never ever went to the NTCC or had any previous knowledge of him whatsoever. But lets say with that in mind that I know what I know now and lets say I was actually looking for a church.
I'd spend a long time listing carefully to Ashmore and observing his life before I ever considered him a servant of the Lord. I'd be very reluctant to follow him or anyone else claiming they were a "servant" of the Lord. There are just too too many fakes out here. Like I said, I believe the guy is out there. He didn't sound "too" bad in that video but in another he sounded cuckoo as a clock.
I'm still glad he left the NTCC.
Chief
well, you're getting lots of participation now that Matt chimed in...
No doubt.
Ashmore uses forked tongue snake talk to project the image that he does not collect tithe and bring in a lot of money. Religious hucksters are great at convincing folks that they are not in it for the money, but when you watch them wag their tongues long enough, you ask yourself, why don't they just come out and say what's on their mind in plain english? Ashmore knows that the question has been floated around here several times in the past few days, so he 'coincidentally' comes out with a teaching about grace in which he brings up the subject of tithe.
All he has to do is say, you don't have to pay tithe if you are a Christian. Tithing has nothing to do with your status as a Christian. These professional hoodwinking con-artists have developed a double tongue language that doesn't directly answer the question being asked but leaves people thinking that it has. We have studied their ways for quite some time and it's obvious that Ashmore is doing a little bit of tap dancing. I bet there are a number of people who believe in tithing and they pay him their tithe faithfully every payday, just as they did in the ntcc. I'm sure he tells them that God will bless them. I doubt he ever has discouraged anyone from paying tithe. I know if I was a money grubbing huckster, I wouldn't discourage anyone from paying tithe. The dude is dripping with money. He's constantly video taping himself with the back drop of the San Diego shore and in beautiful settings. If you are leaving the ntcc to join up with Ashmore's new grace movement, you are making another foolish decision with your life and you have learned nothing from your ntcc experience.
If Ashmore knows what is good for for him, he'll tell his sidekick to stop making videos. Mike Meinecke is doing more damage to Ashmore's ministry than we could ever do. If I went to Ashmore's church after leaving the ntcc and looking for a better life and seen that dude teaching about the end of days, I'd make tracks out of there and never come back. The ntcc finally learned to keep Kekel off the blogs because every time he opened his mouth it hurt the ntcc. His own defense of ntcc doctrine exposed the double standards that he created and inspired others to keep. Kekel did more damage by speaking on the blogs than he ever did when he learned to shut up. Perhaps someone wiser than him convinced taught him to hold his tongue.
This M&M guy is not doing JRA any favors.
DnA said..."MDR can I borrow your glock just in case this guy comes by the house? That is one scary looking dude. His eyes look like blood moons.
Don, that is too funny! Yes, you can borrow my Glock, but which model do you want? The .45 acp the .40 cal. or the 9mm. I have one for everyday of the week!
I agree with you 100% concerning this dude. He's not helping the Ashmore Grace movement at all. I'm sure that he's a nice dude, but if your Kooky it defeats what you're trying to accomplish. Surely Ashmore realizes this about the man, but doesn't want to offend him and thereby discourage his further participation. Who knows!
mdr
Hey "No Not Joe" where-cha go? Awe-full quite out there! Can't get
Ashmore to talk, huh?
Man, what an over inflated thing for me to say.
mdr
MDR said:
"Yes, you can borrow my Glock, but which model do you want? The .45 acp the .40 cal. or the 9mm. I have one for everyday of the week!"
DNA said:
We were watching videos on Youtube and tapped into something quite interesting. I think Ange would prefer the 9mm, while that .40 cal. would feel pretty good in my hands. Would you have any multi-purpose Glocks? We would like to get our hands on that 9mm/40 cal. with the changeable Barrel that you are rumored to have. That way we could have the best of both worlds and feel comfortable knowing that our interests will be protected and our trigger fingers will be poised for smooth and lethal action if necessary.
Sorry, folks, I got a little carried away there. I don't think that M&M is that bad of a guy, and he probably isn't as dangerous as he looks. The smell of gun powder and the sound of a shells efficiently being ejected from the chamber brings back memories. The 50 cal, was the greatest. We would set the world on fire with that thing. Every fourth round was a tracer and the dry grass and weeds would blaze as we cut down targets from 500 to 800 meters away. We had to bring extra barrels because after a few minutes they would start to glow because of the heat. Switch out a barrel and adjust head space and timing and we ready to rock and roll. Those were the days. It's amazing how you can find beauty in a fire arm. I've never killed in the Army or as a civilian and wouldn't want to, but it's nice to have a little extra insurance in this crazy world.
DnA said..."e would like to get our hands on that 9mm/40 cal. with the changeable Barrel that you are rumored to have."
Ah! The Glock pistol! One of the finest handguns ever devised. Sig Sauer is the second best in the world. That was for Jeff. ;o)
Don, that's one of the unique qualities of the Glock pistol. The Glock model 22/23 .40 cal can easily be converted to an 9mm in seconds. A 40-9 conversion barrel and a model 17 magazine and your in business. But if your into conceal carry I recommend Glock's latest offering the Model 43 9mm. It's brand new to the market and it is one of the most anticipated handguns of the century! Get one, you'll love it. I have to give Sig some love too. I have an Sig Sauer 1911 .45 acp and it's an awesome piece of engineering. I just like guns! Check out this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU
mdr
I know this Matt fellow threw Ashmore to the forefront of things but maybe some good can come out of this. If Ashmore runs a more "Charismatic" church people will come and go as they please along with not doing all the dogmatic crap of the NTCC. Ashmore's Cult will be less of a nuisance on it's people.
The goal is to get rid of NTCC and for me it's by any means necessary. Denis can have all the holier than thou folks and Ashmore can have all the people who wanted to get the hell away from NTCC for along time.
What will NTCC be in a year or two? Maybe a crumbling empire is what I'm hoping.
The Sig Sauer is the finest handgun ever made. Without exception. I'll take my stock Sig P229 .40 and shoot circles around my stock Glock 23 .40 both of which obviously I own. And my Glock ain't stock either.
For that matter, the S&W M&P is a much better handgun than the Glock. The barrel is better from the factory. The serrations on the slide release on the M&P are FAR easier to grip than the glock for sweaty, wet or even dry hand round chambering. The stock buffer spring rod on the M&P is stainless steel vs plastic on the Glock Gen 3. The M&P has duel ambidextrous slide releases for righty's or lefty's vs the glock single right hand only even on their Gen 4's. The M&P has factory tritium night sights vs the the Glock standard sight posts. The M&P has three interchangeable back-straps that not only adjust depth but also width that can be switched by removing a twist plug from the butt of the hand grip vs the Glock skimpy removable back-strap only on Gen 4 which do not incorporate width increase for larger hands and you have to have a punch to KNOCK a pin out just to change them. No comparison. The M&P is hands down the far superior polymer handgun. Not only that, my M&P VTAC came standard with VTAC sights that incorporate both tritium and fiber optic elements in both front and rear sights stock from the factory. It's an open and closed case. Glock offers nothing like that.
I purchased TRUGLO tritium fiber optic sights for about $100 which I had to have installed on my Glock and they are not as nice as the VTAC ones that came stock on my M&P.
The M&P has a better grip, better buffer spring rod, better dual slide releases, better slide, better back straps, better sights, and better barrel threads from the factory. All in flat dark earth to make it look wonderful.
Now having said all that, I like my Glock 23 now that I've bought after-market sights and barrel but still nowhere as much as my M&P.
The one thing the Glock has better from the factory is the physical trigger itself. I'm not talking about the sear or the sear spring or the striker block. I'm just talking about the physical trigger. So I replaced the one on my M&P with an aluminum short reset trigger with less pre-travel. Now it's head and shoulders above the one on the Glock.
The Glock is reliable but if I had to take a handgun into combat as a side arm, I'd use either my M&P VTAC or my FNH FNX Tactical. In fact, I don't even have to think about it. It would hands down be the FNH as long as I can ever find a dog gone good leg holster for it. But for ease of concealed carry for practical use, the M&P all day. For home self defense, the Sig or the FNH. I don't like handling single action guns on my night stand when I'm still in outer space having just woke up from a sound sleep. Double-single action mechanically de-cocked only for me in the house from a dead sleep. No chance of a negligent discharge. You ain't going to accidentally pull a 10 pound double action trigger, and if you think there is no way you would ever accidentally do it coming out of a dead sleep with a single action gun with no safety, you are dead wrong.
You don't know what in the world is going on when you get suddenly woke up from a dead sleep. I learned that one night when I thought someone was breaking into my house. I blinded myself with my own dog gone rail light bouncing it off a closed white door that I was too sleepy to realize was closed. I leave my door open now. Now I blind the bad guy which hopefully I never have to come face to face with.
There you have Chief's preaching message on handguns. That was for you MDR. I love ya bro.
Chief
Anon said...
What will NTCC be in a year or two? Maybe a crumbling empire is what I'm hoping.
Chief said...
I don't know who you are who just wrote this comment but you and I are totally on the same sheet of music with that whole thing. My beef is with the NTCC. I can't take on the entire church world that's full of hucksters, fakes and con artists and I'm not even trying to. That's why I don't blog about HOP much at all. What's the point. Where there is one HOP there is a hundred. Ashmore may be a kook, which I believe he is, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend in this case so all the power to him. I'm not holding my breath waiting for him to come clean
I think it would be nice if he at least exposed the NTCC some more but again, it hard to throw stones when you live in a glass house. For now, take every NTCCer you can get Mr. Ashmore. Stop letting M&M post kooky videos that without doubt, will harm your cause. I'm sure Kekel has his hands on them already anyway putting on the big smear campaign against your group.
You got to be smart. You're in the real world now with real enemies and Kekel's already announced in church that he's one of them. You have to fight fire with fire.
Good message Chief! I knew that I was going to stir you up. Glock was 1st and therefore everything else is a "Mock Glock!" You do have valid points, but I owned an M&P and after shooting it, I sold that junk! I didn't like it at all. It comes down to personal preference, and mine is the GLOCK!
Headed to work, check you later my friend!
mdr
It does come down to personal preference. Glock is not junk but in comparison to my S&W VTAC M&P the Glock is junk. Their sights have much to be desired. So does the serrations on the slide. For a left hander it's almost useless for true combat. You'd have to change hands just to chamber a round with the slide locked to the rear or reach over the top of the slide or take your shooting hand off the gun just to chamber a round. That's a huge disadvantage. Not only that, REAL shooters train with both hands in case they get injured. I don't know why Glock doesn't put a slide release on both sides. You have to admit, that's pretty poor.
I understand you like Glocks and I do also but for the reasons I've stated, the M&P is far superior. We are no longer riding around in Model T's we like power steering and air conditioning and power windows. The Glock has none of that but it will definitely keep you alive as long as you are not left handed because when you run out of ammo, you just lost valuable seconds that might cost you your life just to release the slide and the mags.
My son is left handed. He'll never own a Glock until they get it right. As you are MDR, I'm very serious about my gun ownership and where my life is concerned, I don't take short cuts and unfortunately Glock has been taking them for too long with their sights, buffer spring rods which wear out because they are not stainless, and their lack of dual slide releases. No night sights? What happens when it starts to get dark and fiber optic is sure nice during bright daylight hours?
I'm a fan of Glock too because they were the first, but they need to step up to the plate and get it right like Smith & Wesson did with features that matter. The only thing on the M&P that admittedly is junk is the trigger and that can be easily replaced which is what I've done with both of mine. Now they are perfect.
To make a Glock perfect you'd have to replace almost the whole gun. Having said all that, I haven't gotten rid of my G23, but that's only because I have too much money in it with the compensator, threaded barrel, and truglo sights. You want to buy it? It's a nice peace if you are a big Glock fan. The compensator significantly reduces muzzle flip and makes it keep it on target between follow-up rounds. No comparison. It reduces muzzle flip to the max and it also reduces recoil. All that makes for far better follow up shots. It's just physics. That's why competition shooters use compensators. They work. My Glock is way more accurate now. It's on the market. I have a concealed holster, duty holster and everything for it.
Chief
ANON MIKE,
Sorry Chief, I wrote that. Normally I sign off but forgot on this point.
I'm torn, because on one hand you have D/A making good points about cult jumpers but on the other hand this is all about Kekel for me. I've never met the man but I'm a little more than ticked he had a kingdom handed to him on a silver platter and a corrupt one at that.
I've seen too many people pass on children for the cause only to see putz face get a son who goes to Catholic school, play sports, gets into a fancy college on our dime and is now going to be warehoused up at Graham abusing incoming Bible School Students. It's total crap.
RW is dead and hopefully he saw the writing on the internet wall because I firmly believe his organization is failing miserably. It's all because of the choices he made for the leadership of his church.
Matt said more ministers are coming... Good... If they can quit the NTCC they can quit Ashmore.
Hey everyone! This morning I was blogging about Glocks, today I had a heart proceedure and experienced what I consider devine healing (without visiting and paying some Kook). Did a blog post about my whole experience today, check it out by clicking Don's Surgery. Thanks.
For those looking to leave NTCC, HOP, etc. there is a whole world to minister to. You have nothing to fear but fear itself. God can put your life (and ministry) back together again. You don't have to cling to a man.... Rev. Kekel, Rev. Ashmore, Denis, or otherwise. If they aren't where God wants you then leave. Let God direct your steps. He'll show you what to do.
Joe Scriven
joe.scriven@gmail.com
Just checked out the Org's website. Kekel has completely assumed all power.
No longer is Olson Chairman, he's been moved to president.
Kekel has made himself Executive Chairman also called CEO.
He is the only one who can appoint board members. What a crock! A guy who's been in Graham doing nothing but living large gets to have complete and total control. My guess is there will be another round of people in high places leaving.
If not now, then when his son is appointed to the board after having done nothing but living it up then I think people will have had enough.
Mike
I don't foresee hop being much of a problem. Denis is going to wear those people out. What a tool. I respect people for leaving because they believed there was compromise but come on... You are too self righteous to realize you're miserable!
Fortunately I've heard there is quite the turn around!!! No one can make it under that guy.
Ashmore is going to be someone who can build an actual organization. He's got what many consider the gravitas to be a church leader unlike Kekel.
This of course is a good thing. People in NTCC are leaving rather than staying because no one can refute that putz is only Executive Chairman because of whom he married.
If Ashmore creates a church that tithes but is much softer than so be it. So long as Grant, Mike, and Tanya lose their empire I'm good with that.
Tom wrote...
RW is dead and hopefully he saw the writing on the internet wall because I firmly believe his organization is failing miserably. It's all because of the choices he made for the leadership of his church.
Chief said...
His organization is failing because he was a crook from the start so he selected crooks. Birds of a feather flock together.
Chief
Mike wrote...
No longer is Olson Chairman, he's been moved to president.
Chief wrote...
You might want to check again. I'm not sure that's what the website says. Just want information to be accurate.
I'm not sure exactly what it says now, but the last time I looked, we did a blog post and that was somewhere around the time that Davis died. The pictures had Olson's title and position above Kekel's but the bylaws had Kekel in absolute control of everything by title and definition of the powers held by his title. Everyone including Olson had to get approval from Kekel. Every final decision in every arena had to get final approval by Kekel. In that post I remember emphasizing how all this happened right around the time of Davis's death.
The obvious conclusion was that this is and always has been a family owned and operated business and when Davis died he executed order 66, by killing anyone else's claim to the throne and passing all power to Darth Kekel. I pasted a copy of the bylaws and definitions for each position and unless somehow this has changed, I think Mike might have it right or at least pretty close. When I have a convenient season I'll take a closer peak.
Chief said:
"Having said all that, I haven't gotten rid of my G23, but that's only because I have too much money in it with the compensator, threaded barrel, and truglo sights. You want to buy it? It's a nice peace if you are a big Glock fan."
DNA said:
I have nowhere near the knowledge that you or MDR have on handguns, but I have fired a Glock and I like the way they feel in my hand. Call me sometime, I might be interested, if I can get out your way.
I know that there are those that will say, what do you need a gun for? The bible says, "Thou shalt not Kill" or "God will protect me".
I would say that passage is talking about Murder, but I also wouldn't mind Making God's job of protecting me a little easier. You never know who is going to come lurking around your house in the middle of the night.
I bought a shot gun not too long ago from Walmart just as a basic protection policy and would only use it if aggressive negotiations needed to be conducted on a prowler or burglar who thinks it's okay to break themselves in to your house without an invitation. The problem with that you only get a couple shots and then your reloading. Might as well use a black powder rifle from the civil war.
I know that police get a bad rap because they often pump multiple rounds into criminals. There are Youtube videos of cops telling the criminal not to reach into their pockets, and the idiots more often than not do it anyway. The reason they get shot multiple times instead of just once, is because sometimes it takes more than one bullet to stop someone. Cops are trained that when their lives are threaten to use whatever lethal force necessary to dispatch the criminal if there is danger to their own lives.
It's good to have a handgun that is easily accessible and has a clip that holds over a dozen bullets just in case there are multiple perpetrators or one very consistent one that can only be taken down with multiple shots. I also think it's important to receive the proper training for handling and owning a weapon for self defense. Responsible gun ownership and lot's of practice at the range can optimize your gun owning experience. Most people never will have to use a hand gun for self defense in their entire lives, and although I hope I would never have to, I think it's a good thing to be prepared for any threatening situation.
DnA said...
I have nowhere near the knowledge that you or MDR have on handguns.
Chief said...
And MDR has nowhere near the knowledge that I have. Hahahahahahah. I couldn't resist that one MDR. LOL. MDR knows plenty but he's bias. He's like your mother-in-law who's had the same microwave for 20 years already that won't even cook popcorn but she just won't part with it. MDR is that way with Glocks. Make no mistake, they are very good guns and I've had my share of glocks over the years. They are just outdated and they are not keeping up and it's just that simple.
I worked in capability development while I was on active duty in the same division as the small arms guys responsible for writing requirements for handguns and carbines. I really do know a lot about this stuff for what it's worth. The Glock was never talked about by the foremost experts and I'm not exaggerating. They were looking at guns with the latest tangible improvements because there is really not a lot to guns and the latest features matter. Two of them, who I know specifically were competition shooters. One was a handgun expert and sniper and the other, a former Army Ranger Sniper, carbine, shotgun and handgun expert who shot competitively in three gun shoots and he was extremely good. I was invited to a private two gun shoot, (carbine, pistol) hosted by a rail light company who's name I won't mention. Anyway, because of my extreme interest in personal self defense and my love for handguns, I would ask the foremost experts in the military as many questions as I could dream of and I made certain handgun, compensator, and accessory purchases based upon the answers given and the research I had done.
I'm close friends with a former Special Forces Soldier by the name of C. Hoover who lives right here in Columbus Georgia and he's the owner and primary operator of a local company called Black Skull Tactical, (look it up). He's taught me a lot as well. He likes Glocks for their reliability because he puts so many rounds through is guns. He also likes a variety of other pistols because he recognizes the benefits of different brands and what they offer and he gives self defense classes and trains people how to effectively shoot. He has a variety of different guns that he brings to his classes for clients to demo.
Anyway, I've said all that to say this. The Army's handgun expert who I would consult felt that Sig Sauer had the best trigger mechanisms stock from the factory and having shot them I understand why he feels that way. He recommended that I purchase a Sig P220 Dark Elite because of it's superior SRT (short reset trigger) system and superior adjustable sights. He's also a big fan of 45 ACP which has it's benefits and drawbacks. So I bought one with a threaded barrel to affix accessories.
The gun was a tack driver without doubt just as he'd said. My problem with it was that it is a single stack, and a heavy steel gun. Not good for tactical or carry purposes at all but a great home self defense gun.
Continued below...
Well I have better ways to spend well over $1000 than a gun that is only practical for home self defense so I sold it, and bought an FNX tactical with higher sights, polymer and double stack in 45 ACP. Now this is a tactical gun. 15 rounds of 45 ACP and light weight for a gun of it's class. A true combat handgun with all kinds of stopping power and room for accessorizing which naturally I've done. It's set up for day, night and fast target acquisition with the best optics available and a threaded barrel needed for use with a suppressor. As handguns go, this is the top dog for war without exception if you don't mind the extra weight which is a viable consideration.
Now reality. Unless there is a complete global economic meltdown and chaos ensues, I'll probably never need this gun but I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not be able to get it because you won't be able to get items like this if chaos ever kicks in. MDR probably won't ever need all his guns either.
MDR and I will no doubt die with a bunch of guns we will never use. Life of a survivalist. I keep mine around for the occasional cult fanatic who won't stop beating on my door. Just joking, I don't really mean that.
I'll call you Don and we'll see what we can work out. The gun has two barrels, one threaded and one not. Two different buffer springs and rods. One for each barrel. One is lighter to offset the reduction in recoil for proper cycling due to the use of a compensator. My Glock is set up to the max Don and if you are interested, I won't take you to the cleaners like RWD and Kekel would. See how I brought that back to the NTCC? Focus grasshopper.
Chief
I think that cops are getting a bad rap because they beat down nonresisting "resisters" and shoot people while they're running away, and lie about it on their reports. Then the video surfaces and we learn what we're really dealing with--a nascent police state. It seems like the attitude has gone from "protect and serve" to "shoot first and ask questions later." I mean, sometimes it's ridiculous, with them pumping hundreds of rounds off in suburban neighborhoods like some kind of combat mad minute.
The police are becoming militarized, and the military policing the world. My daughter's husband is a cop, and I support fighting legitimate crime, but nowadays it seems to be more about population control. Creepy. The rise of the cellphone has tripped them up, and now we see them trying to criminalize the act of recording a public servant working for us on our dime, when in reality they should be filming every interaction themselves to smoke out the corrupt element. It's a sad day when people can't trust the police, and it's a bad situation when state armed thugs oppress the people with impunity. It's the same dynamic that always arises when there's no accountability (like in NTCC, to veer back on topic).
The bylaws are where you can find that Kekel is executive chairman. The other page hasn't been updated yet.
You still may want to double check that. I think you have it backwards. Is there someone else who wouldn't mind going on the NTCC official website and verifying this? I don't see where that is stated in the bylaws. It appears that Olson is still the CEO or Executive Chairman or whatever you want to call him.
I think reality lies somewhere between our opinions. Demands for justice to be executed upon police seem to be escalated when it involves white cops and black criminals. I'm not saying that there isn't more corruption than there ought to be, but if you compare Outrage of white criminals being shot by black cops with black criminals being shot by white cops, it seems like it becomes more racially motivated.
I agree Vic, that there are is a lot of corruption in government, to include the police just as there is in Religious groups. My point was to bring out the reality that cops are often put in the position where they have to draw down on criminals. Do they abuse that power at times? Absolutely.
If I was in my home and had an intruder bust into my house, I would probably unload 5 to 10 bullets into his body before even thinking to see if he was dead. Cops are out on the streets where there is a lot of violence and their lives are threatened. Some of them have families and are doing their best to protect and serve just as many of us did in the military. If I was a cop and was drawn down by a criminal and told him to keep his hands out of his pockets, and he refused to do that, I would shoot as many rounds necessary to keep him from becoming a threat to me and my family back home. It's nothing personal, I just don't want to get shot for trusting the wrong person.
Either way. It's all semantics in my opinion. We all know who is in charge of the NTCC. It's Tanya and consequently Mike. Which ever way you want to look at it. Those two are in charge. It's a family business and anyone with a functional brain, (which most NTCCers no longer have) can figure that out. It's not that they don't actually have a brain, it's that the NTCC leadership has quite effectively taught them how not to use it in a logical, sensible, rational manner. Their brains have simply been shut do to do no more than what they're brainwashed into.
To the brainwashed NTCCer, Kekel is a "man of God". To someone with sense, he's a money hungry compromising con artist who let his son do the exact opposite of what RWD preached.
To the brainwashed NTCCer, their money is going to the "work of the Lord" and a good cause. To someone with common sense, an NTCCers money is going toward Tanya's furniture shopping binges, mansion after mansion, expensive cars that were referred to as quote "self cars" back in the day.
To the brainwashed NTCCer, renting one of RWD's houses is a privilege. To someone with common sense, it's just another way for the NTCC to soak you out of every dime they can get.
To the brainwashed NTCCer, having no clue what's in the churches escrow account is trusting the Lord. To someone with common sense, it is an obvious method used to extort a church and rob them of their accounts because they never knew what was in there to start with.
People in the NTCC are utterly brainwashed and have at least temporarily lost the ability to use their brain in a logical manner.
Chief
There is absolutely now way I'd want to be a Cop. No way no how. If you were a white Cop, too many Blacks would hate you and there is no getting around that. I know it is somewhat deserved but you become a target. There is already too much distrust so unfortunately there is no solution to the problem. Too many White Cops have used excessive force or simply just shot Black guys when there was absolutely no justification. It seems to be happening and being recorded on video just about every month now if not more.
Too many White and Black Cops have become too trigger happy. Recently a Black Cop shot a Black guy dead and it was briefly all over the news and there was video of the incident but that story didn't get as much traction as the White Cops shooting Blacks. There is a double standard in that regard. No way I'd be a Cop.
Anonymous said...
You still may want to double check that. I think you have it backwards. Is there someone else who wouldn't mind going on the NTCC official website and verifying this? I don't see where that is stated in the bylaws. It appears that Olson is still the CEO or Executive Chairman or whatever you want to call him.
DNA said:
Here's where it gets confusing, and I've have written about this in detail on my blog when the change first came out, near the time of RWD's death. I believe that they purposely made this confusing to throw people off and so that even folks in the ntcc wouldn't know what is going on.
J.H. Olson is listed as Chairman of the Board and President, with a picture of his mug right next to his title.
M.C. Kekel is listed as Chief Executive Officer next to a picture of his mugshot.
The Bylaws give definitions. The title Executive Chairman of the Board is the #1 position according to the bylaws and that title is abbreviated as CEO. CEO stands for Chief Executive Officer. Kekel is listed as Chief Executive Officer while Olson is listed as "Chairman of the Board", not "Executive Chairman of the Board". There is no position defined in the bylaws called Chairman of the Board. Next to Olson's position of Chairman of the Board it also says & President. If Olson was the CEO and President, Why is Kekel being named the Chief Executive Officer and why does the definition of Kekel's role in the ntcc require the President, (J.H. Olson) to report to him? In Article 1 Paragraph C it says that the Executive Chairman of the Board shall hereinafter be referred to as the CEO Chief Executive Officer. Kekel is listed as the CEO so he also holds the title of Executive Chairman of the board. Article 1 Paragraph C states in plain english the the CEO and the Executive Chairman of the Board are one in the same.
The confusion is created by the ntcc practice of weasel words and making a lie by confusing everyone with language that can easily be misinterpreted. If you read Article II you will find that the CEO, who is listed as Kekel, has ultimate authority over every other position in the ntcc until he dies, meets his demise or steps down voluntary. Olson's title of Chairman of the Board is bogus as their is no definition for that title in the bylaws. He is also listed as President and the definition and requirements of the president are described in Article II as subservient to the CEO, who is Kekel.
That's what I like about you Chief. It took me a whole page to explain what you explained in one sentence. Common sense, imagine that....
Bylaw...
(C) The Executive Chairman of the Board shall be Chief Executive Officer of the organization. (Hereinafter referred to as C.E.O.)
Kekel is CEO therefore is Executive Chairman of the board.
I've seen the face shots, that hasn't changed for some time. The chairman was to work for the CEO at one point, now it's the president who works for the CEO, EXEC Chairman.
While you are correct that Tanya/Kekel are in charge it just shows the consolidation of power as only Kekel can appoint board members.
So Kekel has absolute power in the NTCC. Ok no common sense having NTCC people. Listen to this.
Do you think God appointed Kekel as the person to be responsible for providing guidance that will be necessary to you so as to insure your safe eternal travel? Legit question now.
Or do you think that Kekel is simply in charge of the NTCC because he is the husband of the head honcho's daughter?
I can confidently say, (because I have common sense) that God had nothing whatsoever to do with the appointment of Kekel other than to simply give you what you deserve; a CROOK because you've willfully elected to ignore the obvious.
Kekel is absolutely NOT a man of God, child of God or servant of God. He is a servant of himself and y'all serve HIM!!!! You serve his wife Tanya. You serve their son GK. My common sense lets me clearly understand that in the NTCC, you are not serving God but Kekel. You make him wealthy, you clean his house, you let him zero your escrow accounts, you let him laugh at you while his son, (contrary to what Davis always taught) prances off proudly to a Catholic college and attends a high school that cost NTCCers $20,000 a year.
Now that is common sense. The Kekel's are money and power hungry to the utter max. You serve Tanya.
Again, Kekel is NOT, NOT, NOT a man of God. He is a religious huckster plain and simple making statements like that my friend is using, (what most NTCCers don't have) common sense.
The big big cheese. Cheese Louise.
Ah, we're back to talking about M C Kekel the Schmekel! He's such a punk! I can't help it, but every time I think of him the word Schmuck comes time mind.
I was with a few friends this past weekend, all of which used to attend the NTCC, and one of the fella's told us that he lived in the dorm with Kekel the Schmekel in St. Louis. He told us how that living with Kekel the Schmekel was a nightmare. He said that Kekel the Schmekel used to walk around like a spoiled little brat, always huffing an puffing at the others. In the mornings when his alarm would go off Schmekel wouldn't turn it off and when they tried to wake him up he would get mad and start yelling and acting like a baby.
It would have been awesome if there would have been somebody in that dorm that wasn't quite "sanctified" yet and would have put him right back to sleep when he awoke like that!
My friend told me that Kekel the Schmekel always walked around with a chip on his shoulder, acting like he was "bad." He said there were many times that he wanted to punch him right in the mouth, but he was a Christian and wasn't about to get in trouble over Kekel.
And now America can take comfort in knowing that It's last great hope is here among us, Kekel the Schmekel!!
mdr
Chief said..."I'll call you Don and we'll see what we can work out."
Don, you won't be sorry if you get Chief's Glock 23. That is a great gun for which you need/want it. I'm sure that Chief will cut you a good deal too.
Everything that chief discussed in the previous post is true, but keep in mind that he and the others are clearly avid shooters that think in terms of combat and engagement. They know exactly what they want on an handgun/carbine. The bells and whistles are nice and greatly enhance the shooters ability and advantage.
That said, I prefer the "beauty in simplicity"...Glock exemplifies that statement. Glock "Perfection". The Glock pistol is perfect for the homeowner to the soldier/Police officer. As a matter of fact, there are more Police forces that use the Glock pistol more than any other handgun on the market today. In fact Glock Inc. could have won the US Military market, but they didn't need too because of all the other markets they were dominating in. The US had specific demands on Glock, such as were stated by Chief, and they wanted a select fire switch. Glock was given a deadline to come up with a design and refused the offer. Glock's slogan for the Police market was..."First the FIRED us, then they HIRED us!"
You can't go wrong with a Glock. Happy shooting my friend.
Man, I like guns!
mdr
Well there you have it. Glock perfection. They did make Glock easy. No safety, (I don't like safety mechanisms anyway) a decent physical trigger for sure, striker fire, durable mags. You are not going to beat up a Glock. That doesn't change anything I said earlier but you can depend on a Glock, (as long as you are not left handed). The chance of a Glock malfunction (from my experience) is almost non-existent. You still want to keep them clean. Good to hear from you again MDR.
Chief
One can only wonder what gun making has to do with those still hurting and on the fence at NTCC.
I see you decided not to answer my post Mr. Boaster.
And yet you rambled on this Blog that this Blog was about NTCC, apparently that is not true at all, unless of course NTCC is now in the business of manufacturing guns.
Praying for you Mr. Boaster.
Your Brother in Christ
Michael Riley
I'm not even interested in your prayers Mr. Riley. That's what NTCC people used to say to folks who they though they were more spiritual than; "I'm praying for you". Bunch of hogwash.
I don't claim to be spiritual and you certainly are anything but so you can keep your prayers for someone else because I'm not impressed with your quote, "spirituality". You aren't impressed with my gun knowledge, and I'm not impressed with your spirituality so guess what? We have something in common. Now have a good day.
Chief the Boaster.
P.S. You are also not my brother in Christ Mr. Super Spiritual. I'm Chief the Boaster and you are Mr. Super Spiritual. I can live with that. I'd rather be a boaster. At least I know what I"m boasting about. That was good. I just impressed myself with my boasting. Again,
Chief the Boaster.
PART #1
I followed NTCC for 19 years, and still 3 years after the Lord has brought me out, God has yet to use me to belittle people. They need help, support and prayer, NOT ridicule. Continue reading and it shall be apparent to you why I do not, and will not lash out against NTCC and it’s leaders.
To those of you who post on this Blog, do you really believe belittling people is the right approach to winning people over to your view? Is that the right answer to persuade anyone? Anyone who resorts to calling a brother in Christ a “kook” or any other derogatory name are spiritually immature to the fact that they are belittling Jesus. For proof simply read Acts 9:5 Not to mention they exhibit the exact same spirit they deride in their past leaders in NTCC.
To Chief, MDR and D/A many of your writings are filled with consternation as to why so many in NTCC fail to leave. In my understanding I believe one of the reasons why so many still within the walls of NTCC are so reticent to leave AFTER reading your writings, is simply due to the obvious fact your writings fail to show them CHRIST.
What it does show is a group who have left NTCC only to embrace their lust, who are now incredibly enamored with the things of this world. What leads me to this estimation is the continued infatuation on this Blog that following Christ is all about MATERIAL BLESSINGS.
I can only assume you learned and embraced this from following Prosperity Preachers, OR you’ve used a HUGE erasure in your Bibles to abrogate many of the scriptures that plainly teach Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Not even NTCC with all of their false teachings were teaching a Prosperity Gospel or that followers of Christ should live for the things of the world.
PART #2
So who has bewitched you and made you believe such a lie? Are you now saved through the lust of your flesh? Really? And since out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh,
(or typeth on a Blog) it appeared to me that these many writings on this Blog have equated MATERIAL BLESSINGS with following Christ.
You all seemed to have missed the import of the Gospel of Christ, for following Christ and his Gospel has absolutely NOTHING to do with MATERIAL BLESSINGS. Jesus death and his glorious resurrection was not accomplished so that Chief, or any of Chief’s disciples (the lovers of mammon on this Blog) could acquire MATERIAL BLESSINGS in this life. If that were the import of Christ Gospel than Jesus missed it when he taught “Ye cannot serve God and mammon” OR Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. OR when Apostle Paul instructed Timothy “And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. (Mat 6:24, John 6:27, 1 Tim 6:8) Did they miss it Chief?
In your incessant desire to belittle those who still follow NTCC, you seek to compare your blessings AFTER leaving NTCC, with those who are still there. Unfortunately all you’ve done is to undergird the false teaching that those who follow Christ need NOT take up their cross or a Prosperity Gospel with the thought “hey people still in NTCC, if you leave NTCC you can have more material blessings like me!”
PART #3
In the secular world such a "carrot and stick" strategy may induce the natural man to take action, but those who ONLY desire Christ, and not the trinkets of this world will not budge with such an approach. Please forgive me this wrong, if I take the time to share with you what I’ve learned through Christ the significant difference between those who follow Christ for the loaves, and those who follow Christ for His life. For unless you understand WHY the spiritual man follows Christ, VS your boastings concerning material blessings, you will continue to avail your history of consternation on this Blog.
The spiritual man follows Christ because; But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. AND Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. AND That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; (Gal 6:14, 1 John 5:15, Phil 3;10 there are many, many other scriptures)
The writings on this Blog are all against the above scriptures and spiritual man that follows Christ, for you have all actively embraced the world and all that it offers. And yet, you have the audacity to wonder Why more people are not leaving NTCC after reading your Blog? REALLY?
Chief, MDR and D/A IF you still follow Christ, you have deluded yourselves into thinking your cross for Christ and the fellowship of his sufferings are TO LUST AFTER THE THINGS OF THE WORLD.
PART #4
MDR as my former Pastor you use to preach against the very life you now actively embrace.
Would you be so kind to share with us the revelation you received from the Holy Ghost that has NOW taught you to embrace the world and your lust?
Even with all the false teachings and manipulative machinations of NTCC, it would be better for those within NTCC to stay there than to follow the example you have set on this Blog.
But God forbid that they stay there. For all those still within the walls of NTCC. If you know God has been dealing with your heart about leaving NTCC, you may be wondering where you should you go? GO TO THE LORD, AND HE WILL HEAL YOU AND DIRECT YOU, AND ASSURE YOU OF HIS LOVE.
And BEWARE of those who’s lives exemplify living for the things of world and living for their lust, instead of taking up their cross to resist and die to the flesh and the filth of this world.
And I pray you are not tempted to LOOK FOR DIRT, or VENT YOUR ANGER against anyone.
Job’s three miserable comforters could have given better advice than “you should look for dirt and vent your anger”. The people that teach that foolishness fail to understand the scriptures in the accounts of Joseph and his brethren, Job and Jesus, that everything we experienced is designed and orchestrated by God, both the good and the EVIL.
Did Joseph ridicule his brethren for selling him slave? NO! ..did he lash out at them for all the evil he caused them? NO..NOW read what Joseph said and may the Lord give you understanding.. Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life. AND But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. (Gen45:5, Gen 50:20)
Mr. Super Spiritual said...
One can only wonder what gun making has to do with those still hurting and on the fence at NTCC.
Chief the Boaster said...
That there is more to life than the NTCC like owning a nice gun from a great gun manufacture. Gun ownership is great. It empowers you when you can practice the second amendment; the right to keep and bear arms. The NTCC takes your rights away and owning a gun from a "Good" manufacturer allows you practice the rights that some Christians believe they were given by God. There silly, I thought you knew that. If you have any more questions Mr. Super Spiritual feel free to ask. I'm sure I can give you a good boastful answer.
Chief the Boaster
Man, Chief, the kooks are coming out of the woodwork. Must be a full blood moon.
Anyway, here we go and I'll get straight to the point. I will allow your preaching, parts 1-4 to stay on this blog because I do believe in an open forum. Having said that, no wannabe super spiritual person who reminds me of the type of people who I used to know in the NTCC is going to come on here and preach at me about righteousness or the lack thereof. You can call me boastful, (which in reality I'm sure I am from time to time) so that is no doubt an accurate characterization. I genuinely don't have a problem with that. You can call me a jerk or actually practically anything else. Doesn't bother me.
But when you start preaching to me like you are some spiritual authority I have little tolerance for that; and you have just ran it dry. So let me make things perfectly clear to you. Unless you feel like wasting your time typing for nothing, don't preach to me because I don't consider you to be the least bit spiritual and I'm not trying to be the least bit spiritual, so I don't need your advise on the subject.
I don't have to be spiritual to know that a spade is a spade and Kekel, Olson, and the rest of the NTCC people are con artists who ruin the lives of many and bleed them of every dime they can get. I do none of that stuff. If I hurt your feelings then that's your problem not mine. Grow up and get over it. There is absolutely nothing you can say to me to hurt my feelings but you can run my patience dry by preaching at me because I just don't have time for it. If you came to my front door with that stuff I'd ORDER you to leave my property or I'd call the police and get you arrested for unauthorized trespassing. Well I'm the police on this blog so don't preach to me about righteousness or the lack thereof because this is not your church nor will it be.
Hopefully we are clear or all you are going to do is waste your time typing.
Chief
DnA wrote...
Must be a full blood moon.
Chief wrote...
Yeah, no doubt. It's cool. Let them vent. We all need to sometimes. Not a problem. You guys run moderation and I simply delete posts when they irk me too much and there is only one thing that can do that. Preaching by some self righteous wannabe. So it's cool but I'll guarantee they keep it up they just wasted their time typing. Moderation, deleting posts, ultimately same same when it comes down to it. Different approach, same outcome. They can call me anything they want and heck, they might be right, but don't act like you are my pastor because I'm not having it. That stuff makes me have flashbacks to memories that I'm not too fond of. Not really but you get my point.
Later DnA.
Chief
Part 5 just got deleted. So will 6 and 7 if you keep preaching at me.
I tried to tell him. You are wasting your time typing not me. My stuff stays.
Chief
MY LAST POST
I will no longer clutter your Blog with my experience via NTCC, just wanted to leave my email address.
For those of you still within NTCC, and know the Lord is dealing with you to leave. Please know that you can simply GO TO THE LORD, HE WILL HEAL YOU, AND DIRECT YOU AND ASSURE YOU OF HIS LOVE.
GOD IS LOVE
Your Brother in Christ
Michael Riley
mikeriley49x@gmail.com
Isn't Riley the same dude who was posting on the blogs about 3-4 years ago? That guy was sanctimonious too. Suddenly he deleted his blogger profile. My guess is that the org jacked him up for being on the blogs. I'm betting they ran him off. Now he's back, hoping to find some other unstable soul (like himself) with itching ears and a free tithe check to pad his wallet. Yawn. These religious hypocrite types; it just gets old.
There is one statement that NTCC pastors are notorious for making that I've grown to appreciate. "If you don't like it here, there is the door".
The last NTCC church service I sat through Oberhauser said, "If you don't like it here, there are the exit signs". Well that was the last time I was given that offer because it was the last NTCC cult meeting I ever sat through.
But you know what, he was right. I could leave if I didn't like it there and that is exactly what I did. It was an NTCC church and things were going to go the NTCC way and I wasn't going to change that.
And guess what. No one is going to come on this blog and preach at me for very long. I'll let them get a little in but then I'll point them to the door. They can post here, they just can't preach here. Mike Riley left one last message after I deleted his 5th preaching message. The only reason I left that up is because his offer might actually work and he and I just accomplished "basically" the same goal. Unfortunately anyone who follows his advise just jumped out of the pot and into the kettle but that's their problem not mine. If it results in people leaving the NTCC I'm all for it regardless of the outcome. They'll just have to learn from their mistakes.
Chief
Mike wrote...
Please know that you can simply GO TO THE LORD, HE WILL HEAL YOU, AND DIRECT YOU AND ASSURE YOU OF HIS LOVE.
Chief wrote...
And all you have to do to find the Lord is contact Mike at his email address and he'll gladly direct you to yet another church who will gladly accept your tithes and offerings. In love of course.
Same old same old.
Mike is right about one thing. Leave the NTCC but it don't take the Lord to deal with you to know that. Just don't jump off the coals and into the fire.
Chief
Yeah, just some quick research and we found where Riley was being discussed previously on this blog. If it's the same Riley, nothing has changed and everything turned out like we said it would. It's no wonder Jesus was always rebuking the religious hypocrites. They are fooling themselves.
Riley discussed click here
Reality has yet to sink in for Riley. I guess it's a process. 19 years is a lot of time to waste with a bunch of religious hypocrites. Sooner or later you have to break away from all that super spiritual religious pampas hypocrisy and get real. The ntcc is like that coffee brand called "Chock full of Nuts". From the top to the bottom, inside and out the ntcc is chocked full of nuts.
I know, because I used to be one of them. There comes a time even after we leave that we have to acknowledge the truth. Riley, you seem to be the same religious dude that you were in the ntcc. The super spiritual jargon isn't doing you any favors. Just be real, be yourself. You don't have to say praise God after every sentence and you don't have to preach at everyone you disagree with.
Anyway, if we want to talk about guns on Chief's blog, this is as good a forum as any. There are a lot of people who believe in the freedom to bear Arms. Peter carried a sword and he walked with Jesus. I'm sure the Lord wouldn't begrudge people for talking about guns. That's why religious people and super spiritual giants turn people off. You don't have to convince people that you are something great. Riley, you should try to come down to earth a little bit and get your nose out of the clouds. You probably are not that bad of a person if you could drop the cult jargon and be real. The ntcc used to preach against people being so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good, but the caused people to be like that. They created people who though they were spiritual Giants. Is God going to favor you because you left the ntcc but it's beneath your dignity to speak against them for their false doctrines and abusive ways?
Jesus rejected the religious hypocrites and was reviled for it. You apparently had issues with them or you would still be with them. Why do you find it necessary to demonize people who are honest about the ntcc leadership?
Common sense should let you know to leave the NTCC. It shouldn't have anything to do with the Lord dealing with you. That's the problem with people in the NTCC. They think the Lord has to deal with them about everything before they can make what otherwise should only be a common sense decision. God gave you a brain, use it. You don't need the Lord to tell you your being ripped off when it should be painfully obvious.
The NTCC member asked???
Lord, am I being ripped off?
And the Lord asked?
Did Kekel take your money to send his kid to a Catholic College and send him to a $20,000 a year high school for 4 years and let him play basketball and football contrary to Davis' teachings? Does Mike Kekel live in a mansion and you live comparatively in a dump? Do they ride around in RVs while you drive junkers. Does Mike and Tanya purchase the most expensive furniture and you can barely pay your rent?
Then the Lord asked???
What do you think dummy? Do you need me to spell it out for you???
Chief
DnA, you guys are learning to be more patient than I am. Nothing wrong with that. I'm like the NTCC, "There is the door". "Don't let it hit you on the behind on the way out". I'm just being silly. You made good points and I think it's fine.
Chief
They are Chocked full of nuts and running up the hit counter on your blog. You are quickly running out of comment space, better do something before all of the comments get lost in the shuffle.
Here's another thread from the past chock full of Riley commentary
Click here
ANON MIKE,
So my wife and I left NTCC about 15 years ago. Tonight was the first night that I was able to talk to her about NTCC and the experience as a whole. I talked to her for about an hour on things I've learned from you guys that helped me put 2 and 2 together about the org. Just wanted you guys to know that while I'm still healing I'd have never made this step without D/A's blog and your blog Chief.
What a relief!!!
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