The NTCC leadership commonly teaches that many ex-members are hateful and bitter. The NTCC leadership says that we bash their church. In the process of making these claims, they suggest that rather than bashing their church, we should pray for them. That sounds real spiritual and all, but there is one big problem, and it is once again a typical example of an NTCC double standard. I have heard NTCC ministers, one right after another bash and discredit virtually every other Christian denomination in existence, (other than the NTCC). How come NTCC ministers don't practice what they preach and just pray for all the other quote "Christians" in this world instead of always verbally bashing them and calling them names, (which they regularly do)? I know why. Because the NTCC considers virtually every other "Christian" denomination in existence a cult.
NTCC ministers say that they need to warn their members of all the false teachings that exists throughout the Christian church world. NTCC ministers claim that when a church qualifies as a cult, that justifies all their name calling and the quote, "bashing" (as they say), that they regularly throw at almost every Christian denomination other than their own.
Well guess what NTCC folks? That is exactly why this blog exists, and that is exactly why I warn as many people as I can to stay away from the NTCC. You guys consider other churches to be cults, and I consider the NTCC an extremely destructive cult. So consequently NTCC folks can stop trying to be all religious and spiritual and they can stop telling folks like me that I should quote, "get over it and stop bashing their church." I think NTCC folks have intentionally replaced the word "warning" with the word "bashing", to suit their own crooked agenda, hence the title of this thread.
When NTCC ministers and members stop bashing virtually every other church, (which won't ever happen), then I will stop warning people about the NTCC. Practice what you preach you bunch of self righteous hypocrites. When is the last time you prayed for the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Catholics, and the Presbyterians, and the Baptists and so on. Well I see the NTCC as no better than any of them and in many cases I see the NTCC as being much worse. I've heard NTCC ministers call every one of those churches every name in the book, and there certainly wasn't any praying going on while they were doing it.
Jeff
61 comments:
Hi Jeff,
My name is Jonathan Haynes. I started attending NTCC in 1992 at Fort Stewart (Hinesville, GA) while Ron Denis was pastoring there. For a variety of reasons I dove deep into the program almost immediately. I left for Graham in September of '93 immediately following Conference in Missouri. After "passing" my first semester, I failed two semesters in a row and snuck out in the dead of night, eventually requesting permission to attend the Lakewood church then being pastored by John Santiago (I think I spelled that right, it might have been Rodrigues? he ended up in Panama for a bit I believe). I stayed there (well, until we moved to Parkland under Kinson) until 1997 when I finally left (I think Marshall had replaced Kinson, I can't remember his name for sure). After being out for awhile, I met Sampson when he was soulwinning and my mental baggage got me to come back right in the middle of the HOP business (I was present at the service where Virgil got up and said the Holy Ghost was no longer present in NTCC). Any way's I eventually stopped attending again.
After I got married, some concerned friends and my wife got me into counseling for PTSD through the VA. Long story short, while dealing with other issues, I've come to realize the disproportionate effect my time at NTCC had on me (To quote RWD, I realized I needed to over come my "stinkin' thinkin'." A pity he's the source of so much of it). I'm glad to see your still posting as when I first found your blog by Google search, it seemed to have been dead since early 2008 (this was because I didn't correctly find the home page).
Just this past week, I came to realize the degree of propaganda and mind control this group used to damage me so that when I left, I thought there was nowhere for me to go and I wasn't able to associate with healthy Christians without judging them (I don't know how my parents loved me enough to put up with my self righteous cow dung while I was in the org).
Any ways, thank you,
Jonathan Haynes
PTSD from NTCC?
To be clear, my Counselor believes that my PTSD comes from Childhood trauma prior to my enlistment in the military. However, my time in NTCC did not help (and certainly hurt) me. I was contemplating going to morning service yesterday last Wednesday when I realized the traps I was still living with (including how my still retaining some of Davis' teachings where harming my relationship with my wife and my young daughter's quality of life). I feared encountering Davis. At that point a lot of repressed rage boiled up inside me to a degree that I cannot adequately express through the written word (my counselor has since suggested [and I agree with him] that attending a service is probably not a good idea at the current time.
I remember shortly before cutting all ties with the org when Kekel said in morning service (iirc) that it was OK for Grant to be treated differently (read, receive special privileges that other "christian" children could not), because he was "Pastor's (RWD) grandson". These were the same people that taught me that God is not a respecter of persons (I may not have been the best student but I did pay attention in church).
It occurs to me that I could be described as "Hateful and bitter" based on my above posts. Repressed anger (OK, Hatred, I'm not going to make noises about "righteous wrath" or similar cow dung) etc. Well, how did NTCC hurt me? This is actually the important question for me as it is the prelude to the healing process. To start with, when I started the paperwork for Bible College, it was after talking with RWD in the serviceman's home in Hinesville. He had swung through during the lead up to the spring '93 regional conference at Reed's church (Ft. Benning?). Long story short (again) I fell for the "Who put the desire to preach in your heart, hmm? The Devil?". So, off I go to Bible College, secretly unsure if I'm truly called of God but surely the Pastor can't be wrong so that's just the devil trying me...
Any way, the time comes when I've totally failed God (in my own eyes) and I've gone to a local church. Another ex-student ends up in the same apartment as me, and he does go totally bug nuts (committed to Western State crazy). So, now having the various teachings of Davis condemning me (NTCC is the only true uncompromised church, the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, etc) I'm starting a downward spiral. Not recognizing that I have other issues and sinking into a pit of depression (but I can't be depressed, saved/holy ghost filled Christians are never depressed) blah, blah. Can't hold a real job, God is punishing me for my disloyalty. I must need to pay more tithe and offerings (by the way, God doesn't want your measly one or two dollars, better put at least a fiver in the offering plate, even if all you eat are hot dogs, ramen noodles and ham and cheese sandwichs, except for Sunday after service fellowship). When the last brother sharing the apartment with me moved out (sticking me with his three hundred dollar international phone bill) and I no longer had the oppression of living with my fellow inmates I mean Christians my willingness to continue to "Serve the Lord" hit rock bottom. Thus, I ceased attending services in the Parkland Church (my loving Pastor, of course, never even came to see why I had stopped coming).
Now I really had the Conviction of God raining down on me (really, the guilt of the fact that I still believed Christianity was the TRUTH, but convinced that God wanted nothing to do with a rebellious, disloyal person such as I, who was certainly doomed to a life of misery and sin to be followed by an eternity of torment in Hell). I couldn't even bring myself to try to go to another church, I mean, what would be the point, they were all compromised anyway.
I married a nice enough young lady and we had a daughter. I finally got my head out of my fourth point of contact and have held the same job for almost 5 years now. And I realized that I wanted to be able to share the glory of God with my daughter so she could at least make a properly educated choice about her future. This means I have to get around the mental bonds that had been festering in my mind, mostly uncontested for years now. My therapist has agreed to help and also suggested trying to find a place like this where I can, well, vent for lack of a better word. Share my experience with people who know what it was like.
Jonathan
Well Johathan, your testimony sounds quite familiar. Of course I'm certainly no professional on any type of PTSD. All that I can say is don't "EVER" go back to any NTCC services because that will definitely only complicate matters. The NTCC will thoroughly mess up your life to include your employment status, financial stability and more important than either of those; your families stability.
Knowing what you know now, it would be a completely irrational decision to ever step foot in another NTCC church. If it's your desire to attend services, try a different church altogether but be careful, pay attention, and beware of the signs indicating that your new church could be a cult as well.
Go to this website and take this test.
http://www.cultwatch.com/SuperApostleDetector.html?x=82&y=44
It is actually very good. If any or rather many, of those signs exist, the church is quite likely a controlling, destructive cult.
No need to be scared of RWD either. That doesn't mean you ever go back to his controlling, cult church, but he is no more then a psychological bully who only has control over the folks who allow him to have control. Most of us are well over RWD and all of his antics.
I certainly welcome your comments here. Even though we, (including myself) regularly get off the topic of the thread, I ask that you try to stay on topic.
Lastly and once again, don't ever go back to the NTCC for it can only do more to bring unneeded, extra confusion to your life. I wish you the best.
Jeff
Jonathan,
I want you to know your not the only one going through PTSD. I was also diagnosed with that. Anything that puts our brains through trauma, and leaving a cult constitutes as trauma to the brain. We were brainwashed with so many half truths, or not even biblical truths at all! We thought this was where God wanted us. These men were supposedly handpicked by God to guide and teach us. So we assumed that they must know more then we know about the Bible. NOT! Men in ntcc are spoon fed by rw. We were taught that whatever rw says is the truth no matter how stupid it sounds. He was supposed to be “THE MAN OF GOD!”
I also went through therapy. I doubted my depression for a while, until it almost broke up my marriage. Then I dove in and got help and took some meds for anxiety! It is helping. Depression is not FAKE, or MADE UP, as RW likes to share! I had all the symptoms but tried to ignore them and heal myself. I couldn't do it on my own. I learned I was in a destructive relationship with ntcc. Same as a woman that will not leave her abusive husband or boyfriend. It has the same characteristics. You put up with the abuse, YOU MAKE excuses, and you can't blame them for any of the bad that comes your way and you financial lose. I was in shock when I discovered I was staying in an abusive relationship. I’ve said that if any man hit me, I was so out of there however I stayed for way to many years in ntcc. I took there Crap and pretended it was all find and dandy!
That is why now I love being out of ntcc. I am FREE! I can be myself, and not act like a “preacher wife Barbie.” Sit there, smile, and make polite conversation! BE a FAKE was what I was in ntcc. It was not the real ME!! I also felt like a failure after we left ntcc. Was God angry at me? I had trouble making decisions on MY OWN! I can say, day by day the healing and moving on gets much easier. Now I feel like myself, and not a robot programmed by ntcc. It is between me and God. What my decisions are, what I wear, my friends, the music I listen to, etc!
Come on here and vent as much as you want. It is a great place to vent. I know I am here for you and for anyone else that escapes ntcc!
CM
I don't experience depression at all that I know of. Neither the NTCC, or the military, or anything else had that effect on me. Maybe a woman once or twice. Ha, ha. The NTCC simply had me fooled just like they have all of their current church members and ministers duped and fooled. Folks like RWD, Kekel and Olson aren't fooled at all.
They know exactly what they are doing because they are the ones who are using everyone else. Having said all that, I'm interested in finding out what folks think about the topic of this thread? Have folks experienced what I've written under, "Intentionally Misunderstood?"
Jeff
Jonathan,
I'm glad you've come on here to share your story. I think that "getting it off your chest", especially with those of us who understand what you went through, is a major part of healing. I agree with Jeff-- don't EVER go back to NTCC-- EVER! That's like saying "I want to go back to being an Iraqi prisoner of war. Maybe if I'm a better prisoner they won't torture me again!".
Just so you know, I was in NTCC for many, many years-- probably the most of anyone on this site. And I can say that NTCC really messed up my life. Yes, I stayed in thinking I was doing the right thing, BUT I finally realized that the ntcc leaders were just USING US, and getting rich off of us, and didn't care if we lived or died. NTCC leaders and preachers are some of the most greedy, self-centered people I have ever met. My eyes were eventually opened when I realized that "sinners" and people from other churches were actually NICER and showed more LOVE for me and my family than my own ntcc church (Graham HQ). But, in order for me to leave, I had to overcome the huge reality that I had wasted a huge chunk of my life with a group that was hurting me and all my friends. Once I accepted that reality I could leave.
After leaving a studied alot on cult tactics and abusive churches. NTCC is guity of both. At first I was in shock that NTCC was guilty of using cult tactics, but now I realize that it is because they ARE cult-like. At best and abusive church that uses cult-tactics, and at worst a cult. Regardless, they are a BAD church that routinely ruins peoples lives, marriages and childhoods. They are evil. Their deeds are evil.
Contrary to what ntcc would have you believe, everyone I know who has left ntcc (including me) has prospered and gone on to a happier, more fulfilling life. Some people join other churches and some, like me, don't want to ever see the inside of a church again. BUT, the best part is that YOU HAVE CONTROL over your life now, and not some bully pastor. YOU control your destiny, and YOU can chose what and where you think God wants you, rather than having to get the "pastor's" permission first. You are finally a free man again! Enjoy!
AXP (Another Ex-Preacher)
I don't want to make this a PTSD thread, because I am sure that is not Jeff's intent. However, I know where you are coming from Jonathan.I was attacked in AIT , subsequently suffered years afterward. When I went to the Man of God(the MOG) I was told it was my fault in person...and conveniently over the pulpit. I began to suffer from insomnia(which is a "benefit" in NTCC), because of horrible nightmares. I secretly obtained treatment in the civilian sector. However, my husband expressed displeasure at having a wife listening to the counsel of "sinners". Plus people that get raped probably deserve it because of what they were wearing.(NTCC teaching) so I discontinued treatment, which probably had a hand in destroying my marriage. NTCC's ignorance did nothing but throw fuel on the fire.
I forgive NTCC for the most part, but became angry when I heard of certain people in the org. receiving treatment for PTSD and other maladies.
Anyways, I am doing better now thanks to a watchful Dr. at the VA. Everyone has their days, but thanks to TRUE friends(and God), I know I can make it!
BN
Hey, Jonathan, I probably should remember you, since I was a teacher at the BS then, but I've spent a lot of effort to avoid thinking too much about those years. Anyway, another good place to vent can be found at groups.yahoo.com/group/ntcc_support . There are a bunch of NTCC escapees over there who'd love to interact with and be real friends to you.
A lot of people have asked me how I could get involved with a gruop such as NTCC. I live here in the local South Hill area, and associate with a lot of the people in the local area. EVeryone of them that has seen, heard or has encountered someone from NTCC believe it to be a cult, and want nothing to do with the people that attend this compound.
When I tell people of my involvement with this cult, I explain it to be like a bad marriage/relationship. No one enters into any type of long term relationship hoping it will turn out bad. Many of us enter into relationships doing our best to make it work, and along the way red flags begin to appear showing us that this relationship is not all that its cracked up to be. We are willing to put up with negative/bad attitudes, and even harm in hopes that things will work themselves out. Eventually enough is enough and we are no longer "in love" with the relationship as we once were.
So it is with NTCC...many of us began in this cult at a very young, and impressionable age. Being impressed with RW's hellfire attack mode ways, we were elevated above everyone else, and held an elitist status towards everything, and everyone that dared to contradict the cults teachings. Even in our infancy many of us saw "red flags" that warned of an unhealthy, over controlling, cult atmosphere. Most of us were won into the fold by the "over friendly; fake" prodding of the soul winner, and the local pastor. Many of us were peer pressured into attending the teachings of Graham...(also known as their Bible College) to be told that we were heading into "Gods boot camp." The only problem is the boot camp mantality never ends after your through with Bible College. I know, I spent from 94-2005 in Graham, and lived on campus as a lay pastor. The boot camp mantality, rules, and obnoxious attitudes, and treatment from the leadership never ended. Davis, Kekel, Kinson, Gandy, etc.... were some of the most hardest men to work with. The way that they treated people, and the things that were said about people during lay pastor meetings was everytghing but christian love. Everyone of the men mentioned above I spent adequate time with to know that they personally tear down individuals that leave this destructive cult. The more I was around them, the more disenchanted I became with them, and the more I wanted to leave this unproductive relationship. The years following my departure from this cult, were shadowed with confusion, like so many others. But as time goes by, I have found nothing productive come from this group of individuals. I have kept in contact with many of the individuals that have left, and our stories are all similar. And that is NTCC is a destructive cult. I still work with some of the individuals that attend NTCC, and the one thing that I notice is that the majority of these grown men need to be held by the hand like little children because they are incapable of thinking for themselves...(brainwashed). I do not regret my divorce from this unhealthy relationship involving NTCC; in fact I can actually begin to enjoy my life again without fear of what Roger Davis, or Mike Kekel have to say or think. I do regret the impact that leaving had on my son, because he actually believed that these people were genuine...but he never saw the irritating side that I had to deal with. But after we left the NTCC leadership MADE SURE that he was shunned just as much as we were. Typical of a cult. Rest assured if you attend NTCC and you are reading this, that your efforts throughout Graham, and South Hill are in vain. The more of us that leave, and begin to tell our stories the more that peoples fears will be validated throughout this community, and the more your efforts to recruit for this destructive cult will be multiplied.
Hey Vic, it is good to hear from you. I hope your trip went well. I know you've been looking forward to it for quite some time. I'm glad that you had an opportunity to take such a vacation. Once again, I hope it met all your expectations. I will be taking one soon myself, (at least that is the current plan). I plan to go see my Mom in the great northeast, and I won't be asking permission from anyone. Thank God the fog has been lifted.
Sincerely, your buddy,
Jeff
Anonymous said...
Many of us enter into relationships doing our best to make it work, and along the way red flags begin to appear showing us that this relationship is not all that its cracked up to be. We are willing to put up with negative/bad attitudes, and even harm in hopes that things will work themselves out. Eventually enough is enough and we are no longer "in love" with the relationship as we once were.
Jeff said...
That explanation was totally outstanding. I have never looked at my NTCC experience quite like that before but you hit the nail on the head my friend. I thought I had analyzed my NTCC experience in every way imaginable however you just showed me something that I hadn't quite seen. No need for me to get into specifics but I would like to say thank you very much for taking the time to write your message. It has helped me out. I don't know who you are anonymous but I appreciate your participation in this blog. Please continue.
Jeff
Anonymous boldly and rightly stated...
Rest assured if you attend NTCC and you are reading this, that your efforts throughout Graham, and South Hill are in vain. The more of us that leave, and begin to tell our stories the more that peoples fears will be validated throughout this community, and the more your efforts to recruit for this destructive cult will be multiplied.
Jeff said...
That is music to my ears. Sir I have worked countless hours at this blog with the express intent to also hamper the NTCCs recruitment efforts. I know that this blog has worked effectively on many occasions, (according to it's intended purpose) due to the phone calls that I receive.
The knowledge and experience that you have specifically regarding NTCC operations in Graham are of great significance. I was in 5 different NTCC churches with 6 different NTCC pastors but I was never in Graham which somewhat limits my effectiveness as the caretaker of this blog.
Participants such as yourself significantly add to the effectiveness of this blog because of your first hand experiences and your position as a lay pastor. Your testimony should rightfully be an eye opener to anyone straddling the proverbial NTCC fence.
Please feel welcome to call me for any reason at any time. It's seems that you and I have the same agenda and I truly believe that we have a just cause. I want to help others get out of the same unprofitable and nonproductive relationship that I was a part of for entirely too many years.
404-405-7842
Jeff Collins
Thanks for all the constructive/supportive comments.
Yes Vic, I think I sat in one of your classes (one of the books of the New Testament?). I dimly remember hearing you were going to Alaska. From what I've read you are doing well for yourself now, I'm happy for you.
I DO NOT EVER INTEND TO ATTEND A NTCC SERVICE AGAIN. EVER!
(just to be clear and all).
Concerning Jeff's original intent for this thread (which I had actually intended to get to when I first posted, sorry for the digression and thanks for pointing me to the yahoo group, confused it for the Google group at first). For some reason, I distinctly remember one time when RWD was up on the podium preaching something and he got on the subject of the Baptists (poor compromised individuals without his true holiness teachings [/sarcasm]) and he started bellowing how at least he'd allow them to be saved but Ashmore wouldn't. Of course, as he demonstrated in other teaching/preaching, they weren't really saved or they would eventually act like NTCC.
The repeated references to Prestyloopians, how John Wesley would reject the Methodists, etc echoed through the services. I'm sure a month (maybe even as short a time as a week?) didn't go by with out such a reference thundering from the pulpit to remind the congregation how good (I'd laugh if it weren't so sick) they had it.
Johnathan said...
The repeated references to Prestyloopians...
Jeff said...
If I heard an NTCC preacher refer to the Presbyterians as "Prestyloopians" 1 time, I heard it 100 times. So RWD was the individual who started that mess. I got so sick of hearing NTCC ministers constantly putting down other denominations that were not nearly as destructive as the NTCC is.
Johnathan, it's funny that you mention Ashmore because I sat in the serviceman's home in Columbus Georgia and listened to him systematically critique and condemn virtually every Christian denomination that I can think of other than the NTCC. He must have went on for at least 1 hour and quite likely longer, doing no more than put down every other church imaginable. He continued on so long with his judgmental, condescending attitude that it really left me with a significantly diminished respect for the guy. It was clear that Ashmore was not only hung up on himself and his own self proclaimed greatness, but he also had a disproportionately high opinion of the NTCC as well. He had "stuck up" written all over himself. The show that he had put on during service was charismatic to the max.
Needless to say the guys attitude left me with a lasting negative impression of the NTCCs leadership. Between Ashmore and Denis, it was clear that RWD really picked some high and mighty "blowhards." The NTCC overseers stuck up attitude as a whole contributed to my disgust for the NTCC as much as any other single factor and they also highlighted the poor judgment of RWD.
NTCC folks think Denis is so bad? Some of the other overseers and NTCC leaders are no better. They just haven't double crossed the NTCC yet, (that we know of). Someone who is no more than a good orator is definitely not necessarily a good leader with good character which was plainly evidenced by the whole Denis debacle.
Jeff
Jeff,
for those of us that try and come on the blog. To help expose ntcc. Let folks know the True Story. We are not on here trying to make up stories. This is what we lived. And we want more folks to know. So they do not even walk through there doors. Or if they visit,go on-line to check them out. Find this blog. And get a eye opener and Never go back. It is not a Church. It is a cult.
Jeff,if you could give us update's. Like you menmtion you get phone calls. Let us know how this Blog is suceeding to foil ntcc evil "soul-winning"plans.
It does give me hope. That that other Soliders,Marines,airmen,ect,civilians will not get trapped in the same fake loving atmosphere that we did.
Your away from home,homesick. And ntcc swoops in with there loving servicemen home and wife that cooks for 15-20 men. A pastor that I think often pretend to care for you. Cross that man,and he wioll turn on you faster then a rattler!
It is ALL for SHOW!~
CM
I will give updates as they become appropriate. As you can understand, often folks have been shell shocked but the NTCC and they are very reluctant to all me to reveal their identity.
I had a Marine call me who had been recommended to the blog by his concerned Mom. He expressed his discontentment toward the NTCC and their rules within the serviceman's home where he lived. His pastor told him he couldn't wear shorts. I told the marine that he needed to tell his pastor that Kekel's son wore shorts to play basketball and the NTCC was practicing a double standard. The Marine told me that he was going to leave the serviceman's home and not go back. Of course we discussed other things but that was the conclusion of the conversation. I recieved another call from guy in the Air force and he wanted me to give him proof of my allegations. Because I spent so many years in the military and he was interested in hearing my testimony, I believe I gave him all the proof that he needed. He actually called me back on one or two "more" occasions with more questions and concerns. Of course you can imagine the type of answers that he got from me.
I've had quite a few ladies call and I specifically remember one being noticeably shocked and alarmed with by the information that I gave her. I am totally certain that this particular lady was no longer interested in the NTCC after the discussion that we had.
There have been more as well. I know of another entire NTCC church that essentially has been (for the lack of a better term) totally evacuated by it's previous loyalists.
More often than not the people who I talk with don't want their names divulged and I respect their wishes. I try my best to show these folks who confide in me a whole lot more loyalty than NTCC pastors have shown their church members. NTCC pastors are notorious for putting their church members business out in the streets. Have a good one CM.
Jeff
Blah, Blah, Blah
Same old song and dance!!!
I can see myself reading this blog a year from now, yet no change from within the NTCC leadership...unless someone dies!!
ANON!!!
Joathan,
If you failed two semesters of Bible College in a row, then were you REALLY called to preach?? The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
At least you failed classes at a Cracker Jack School. Good thing it was not a REAL Bible College!!!
ANON!!!
Jonathan,
Your too wishy washy. What do you really want to do in life??
ANON!!!
Anonymous said...
Jonathan,
Your too wishy washy. What do you really want to do in life??
ANON!!!
.........
LTravis said...
Hey, ANON!!! at least Jonathan has a name why do you attack him?
LT said...
at least Jonathan has a name...
Jeff said...
I can relate with that. It's easy to anonymously attack someone. I prefer to sign my name at the end. Jonathan didn't have any problem signing his name either. There is no problem with folks posting anonymously but to attack someone anonymously is kind of weak, don't you think LT? It's kind of like a sucker punch. It can get kind of hot around here sometimes Jonathan, typical NTCC smear tactics. They would think you were great if you were still a member (tithes all paid up) with the NTCC.
I'm not a big fan of Briggs but I will say he has no problem with letting a man know something face to face and nothing held back. Come to think of it, I can respect that in a guy. Yeah, old Briggs does have some backbone, I'll give it to him. I guess if I was in a big group fight, Briggs is the kind of guy I would want on my team. I could definitely see him jumping in and knocking some heads. Yeah Anonymous; you need to give old Briggs a call so he can give you a lesson on how to effectively jump on folks.
Jeff Collins
Anonymous said...
I can see myself reading this blog a year from now, yet no change from within the NTCC leadership...unless someone dies!!
Jeff said...
That is probably true but I'll bet that a year from now some folks will have left the NTCC as a direct result of this blog being in existence. This blog helps folks see that RWD, Olson and Kekel can be stood up to without Gods immediate judgment raining down from the sky.
RWD: Crook!!! Olson: Crook!! Kekel: Crook!
Like I've said. RWD is the Sheriff of Nottingham. Olson is the Crooked Priest that turns everyone in to the Sheriff, and Kekel is Sir Guy of Gisborne.
I'm Robin Hood and L Travis is Friar Tuck. CM is Maid Mariam. Were taking on the crooked money grubbers who take from the poor NTCCers and give to Kekel.
Jeff
I'm fine Jeff. If you want to (and can, blogs confuse me) move my posts to another thread and I'll be happy to answer ANON's questions.
Back to the original subject, I remember Denis calling a new visitor's home church (Lutheran) and getting confrontational on the phone with the visitor's pastor (this was over offering alcoholic wine in communion) and being so obnoxious that the man hung up on him.
"Yeah, old Briggs does have some backbone, I'll give it to him."
The thing I've found out about many NTCC Preachers "Backbone" is that they are all pretty much "10 ft.Tall and Bulletproof" behind that pulpit. But, whenever you are no longer a member and you are on a level playing field then they realize that the sword cuts both ways and they become really, really psuedo humble. Throw in a couple more attibutes and then they do the best that they can to look like this meek, lowly and persecuted thing that is expected to be pitied and they are then showcased by the organization and others in the organization as being persecuted for righteousness sake.
Normally I have some tough skin and let things slide off my back because that's they type of person I am, but you know, I am still human and still have feelings and it hurt that 3 of my so called friends (sisters in NTCC) have now forsaken me without so much as a goodbye or an answer to my e-mails.
These sisters whom I used to pray with together, go soul winning together, jump around at conference together have now snubbed their nose at me.
Whatever they may think of me, I haven't left or forsaken GOD at all, in fact, NTCC was hindering me in a lot of ways to do what GOD had wanted me to do, to study what He wanted me to learn.
Maybe one day soon I will take a trip back to this church that still has the majority of the sisters I know and walk in there unannounced.
I can already picture the fake smiles, the fake 'oh my goodness how are you sister' and the fake happiness.
As you can see I detest fake christianity.
The things is, if they ever bother to leave NTCC, I will be here for them and still be their friend because that's the type of person I am.
I don't care what church denomination someone is.
...Sorry, had to vent...
Dawn said...
The thing is, if they ever bother to leave NTCC, I will be here for them and still be their friend because that's the type of person I am.
Jeff said...
Dawn, I totally understand. Of course I'm sure that you know that I've said NTCC folks act that way all the time. They are your friends as long as you are in "their" church and only if you are in "their" church. They are very shallow and fake because every thought they have about you is conditional upon whether or not you fit the mold of a so called "holiness christian" in "their" NTCC church. You have to walk according to their standards and if you don't, the cold shoulder is certainly to follow shortly there after.
It's sad that you had to experience that Dawn, but the sad fact is that it was inevitable. That is the way NTCC folks are taught to be by word and example. All the people that post on this blog have experienced the same thing at one time or another and we have made mention of our experiences in writing.
Dawn, if it is any consolation, if your former friends ever leave the NTCC, (which eventually is quite likely) they will be ashamed of how they treated you and you can take that to the bank. It happened to all of us. All of us exNTCCers have at one time or another, been dogmatic toward folks that we were close to because they weren't in lock step with the NTCC. I think I can speak for most of us by saying that many of us hold a degree of shame due to our previous conduct toward loved ones while we were members of the NTCC.
That is exactly how it is that many of us understand NTCC folks so well. We were NTCC folks in just as deep as they are, and we are not proud of it. Many of us treated very good people quite badly. We were judgmental, condescending, and self righteous just like these NTCC folks are that we write about.
Jeff
Dawn,
It is very possible that your 3 friends WANT to talk to you, but that the ntcc leaders have blasted them over the pulpit or threatened them with hellfire damnation if they ever talk to someone who goes to Jeff's blog. That is a favorite cult tactic of theirs. You have to disown your friends that left ntcc to prove your loyalty to their cult.
AXP
AXP said...
You have to disown your friends that left ntcc to prove your loyalty to their cult.
Jeff said...
BINGO!!! With the dice.
Jeff
Jeff,
I love it,Maid Mariam!
So true that ntcc takes from the poor to feed the RICH that are so RICH.
You will hear ntcc cult members try and defend rw and Mk. That they sacrificed to get what they got. Those that have so much should help those in need. I believe that is IN THE BIBLE! If rw had the money to build the Mansion he lives in now. He could have stayed in the house he did live in. Which is already a big house for two people! And give that money to PIONEER works. So they do not need to out and support there families and the Church ALL ON THERE OWN!
But now BOSS HOGG,wants to live it up even higher on the Hog. And make sure the peon preachers stay under his thumb. Why else is he always putting the men and women down. Making fun of women over weight,men that are not allowed to think on there own,that you shop at kook store's,on and on! He is the big and mighty Wizard. Got to him for everything. Be like him,dress like him,eat where he eats,decorate your home like he does. Become a mimic copy of rw,mk,... Look at the Gesangs,Defranchesco,Gandy,Deconshire. They all try to look like the leaders,wive's try to emualate tanya and Verna.
It is all a very sick,sick,sick place!
CM
Where did Dinosaurs come from?
Why are they not in the Bible?
BUT there is no denying that Dinosaurs roamed the earth.
So why did God make dinosaurs? Or, was there something MORE sinister involved???
Dinosaurs question? Is this a ntcc cult member trying to sabatoge the group? Get folks off track and talking about something different?
This blog is for sharing true stories? Not Biblical debates. To me this sounds like a ntcc MOLE!!
CM
LOL...Kook stores...haven't heard that word in a while...LOL...
Thanks for the chuckle, CM. =)
CM said...
Dinosaurs question? Is this a ntcc cult member trying to sabotage the group? Get folks off track and talking about something different?
This blog is for sharing true stories? Not Biblical debates. To me this sounds like a ntcc MOLE!!
Jeff said...
You seem to have hit the nail on the head. CM, the actual correct forum term for such a person is not Mole but a Troll.
Rightfully we won't entertain such a question.
Jeff
"Maybe one day soon I will take a trip back to this church that still has the majority of the sisters I know and walk in there unannounced.
I can already picture the fake smiles, the fake 'oh my goodness how are you sister' and the fake happiness."
You know Dawn, The last couple of times I've been in Washington I've thought about doing just that. (My wife wants nothing to do with going with me, She says just let sleeping Dogs lay.)
Anyway, I thought I would just waltz on in one Sunday Morning and see how long it takes for word to get around as far as who I am. I would be just honored if whoever the speaker was would aim a whole Sermon at me and throw in a Prophecy for good measure. Anyways, I've often wondered what kind of reception that I would have.
Dawn,
It is sad that those you were so close to you just rejected you like nothing.
I can relate. It happened to me to when I first left ntcc.
But I have noticed that on facebook many of the Bible College members have ex-ntccer's on their friends list. So it seems that some want to keep in touch (or keep an eye ; )) with the former members they were friends with. Don't know what the deal is with that.
It seems as if all that is okay now.
To AXP,
What is your take on that? Since you have been in ntcc more recently that I have, what is going on with the facebook and myspace. And why do they want to get in touch with former members?
just curious.
Hi Jeff,
Couldn't help but read your blog since I spent a year in JC myself. I've been out a few years and noticed you have the only ongoing current discussion.
I remember when Michael Jackson died and they were interviewing his dad Joe on tv. He looks and talks exactly like rw Davis. I think they are both from Arkansas, maybe twins separated at birth lol!
Anyways going to ntcc is a strange experience and it helps to have people to talk to who can relate.
Good luck everybody.
Hi Nicole. Yes I think it is good to have an ongoing forum by which we can discuss our experiences while with the NTCC.
It helps other folks realize that they aren't just dreaming when they ponder the abuse and mistreatment they've endured at the hands of different NTCC ministers not the least of which is RWD himself.
Jeff
heh.. not everyone from Arkansas is a nut case. My Grandfather sure wasn't.
Anyway... I have had a small break in my busy life to stop by and read and sort of catch up here. And I wanted to add a comment. So here goes.
I always found it odd and quiet rude and unsettling when any one or any so called preacher from NTCC would bash other churches and or even Christian radio stations. I still feel stupid for falling for NTCC in the first place since I was raised in a real honest Christian church. And in that church and the one I attend now they always pray(ed) for all the churches in the surrounding area no matter what their denomination happened to be.
To RWD he must feel threatened by other churches because he sure tries to turn it into a pissing contest of who's right and who is better.
Got news for that mental flake....all churches have their bad apples...your not going to find one that doesn't.
But not all churches are cults. The first sign of a true cult is one that denies that it is a cult. Something NTCC preachers did quiet a bit when I was in. And I always thought it odd that they were going around saying they weren't a cult. Kinda funny when your watching history channel and their talking about cults from the past and they show video's or sound bites and the preacher or wack job or whatever he is ....is always screaming THIS IS NOT A CULT! *rubs chin* hmmm...YEAAAA SURREEE YOUR NOT!!!!
And I'm not a wife of 12 years, with 2 kids, holding a full time job while going to school full time......*rolls eyes*
Your first clue for you newbies who have never been to an NTCC or you recently started going is the fact that they constantly scream that they are not a cult.. guess what...THEIR A CULT!
*steps down off her soap box and returns to her full time job, full time school, husband, and 2 kids*
I'm sure I'll catch up again in a few weeks. I had to work overtime so I could have thanksgiving week off from work. Which left me little time for anything but school work. And then I found out on tuesday when my boss called that when I return to work Sunday night (*gasp* I work on Sundays! OMG!) That I am going to began being trained in a new position which means a PAY RAISE! WOO HOOO!
Working the graveyard shift is perfect for us people who have a hard time sleepin at night. I was working 9pm to 7am but with this new position I have to be clocked in by 8:30pm. The thing I love about these hours is....my kids are sleeping while I am at work. Yes there is an adult here with them. If it's not my husband then my Mom is here. I get to sleep while they are at school. And spend time with them before they go to bed and I have to go to work. So it all works out.
Well I need to go. I hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving. All of you who have managed to leave NTCC keep up the healing process. I know it can be hard work. My first 3 years out of NTCC were hard. I'm still dealing with some issues because of my NTCC experience but everyday is getting easier. Because I'm learning to let go of the past and embrace the future God has planned for me.
BIG HUGS! See ya'll next time I get the chance to surf on over this way!
wish we could edit our posts...I ment to say... at the end.. I hope you all HAD a Wonderful Thanksgiving.
i think Angie had a cup of coffee!!!
Just Curious,
Sorry to take so long getting back your question, but now that I'm out of ntcc I can actually ENJOY the holidays with FAMILY! (Wow. What a concept). lol The same family I didn't see for years and years at a time thanks to ntcc's grueling schedule and guilt trips if you did want to see them.
Anyway I digress. Facebook and Twitter at ntcc-- that is interesting. I remember for YEARS Davis, Olson, and others taught us in church and BS classes how EVIL the internet was. (Raise your hands if you remember. Be honest). In fact, if you bought a computer that had a.... (gasp) DVD player in it... you were ordered by Davis to have it REMOVED!! (I am NOT making this up). I think Davis called it the "sinnernet", which was just as evil as the "devilvision". Then one day someone I know's kid goes to visit Grant Kekel, and guess what they watched? DVD's! Then Davis confesses at a class one day that he always watches the news on TV in the motels! Huh?! (This is while the rest of us are told to turn the TV's backwards in the motel rooms lest we be tempted.) The hypocrisy and inconsistencies of ntcc and it's leaders are something to behold!!
Which leads me back to Twitter and Facebook. (Which used to be a sin, but aren't anymore, because God must have changed His mind, since Davis NEVER has missed God-- EVER!). I personally don't trust anyone from ntcc who wants in on someone's Facebook. Here are my thoughts on it:
1. I believe most people from ntcc are just trying to trick you into talking with them so they can blab all your info to the pastor. They do not truely care about you or how you are-- they just want ammunition to justify why you are evil for leaving their cult. ("Their worldly now, because the wife wears pants and the guy is wearing shorts" etc, etc). They don't care that you may be doing more good in this world than they ever will.
2. Even if they are your friends, and genuinely want to talk to you, most of them will feel an obligation (through a perverted sense of duty) to tell the pastor all about you. Even if they like you they are still IN the cult and cannot be trusted with your private life.
I know of a person who left ntcc (and has been trying hard to forget about them) who started a Facebook page. Within one day they had a ton of ntcc people trying to be their "friend". They were so appalled by them that they immediately cancelled the Facebook page.
My suggestion is: If you want a facebook page don't accept any of the ntccers invites. But, they will still be able to see your Facebook cover page, and will use it against you-- if you even care. I you do care don't do it. Now that I'm gone and realize how hypocritical and messed up they are-- their opinion about me doesn't matter one bit. They are just a bunch of two-faced Pharisees in my book. And I'll write that on my Facebook!!
AXP
Once again AXP; BINGO.
You've become quite the gambler but you are doing good because you are winning. Ha, ha. No pun intended.
Jeff
I do indeed remember "Sinnernet" and "DevilVision". I seem to recall RWD being really proud the office computers were not online back when I was there. My how God's standards change (well, we all know not really but my sarcasm meter feels a little busted today so I want to be clear that if they're "allowing" people on the internet now, they have changed hypocritically).
To go along with ntcc bashing other Churches.
Since escpaing ntcc. I have attended three small Churches. And lived in a community where Churches actually....work together,GASP! went to a Thanksgiving event that had about four Churches working together to bring together,prayer,song,bells,singing. it was beautiful!! My kids attend Awana's at a Baptist Church,though we do not attend Church there. Have gone to VBS with friends of there,again not at a Church we attend. No we are not Church hopping. You can do events with other Churches,and not attend that Church. Aren't we All Christians,saved by Gods grace. It was always preached you have no title in Heaven. So when a ntccer gets to Heaven. You can not go walking around all puffed up,like a peacock! Your just another soul,JUST LIKE EVERYONE else. Your not special because you wore dresses down to the floor. Your Not special because your hair is slicked back and looks so YUCKY! Your not special because of those wing tips and all the door knocking you did. I have a gather that God see's that as wasting time. When you could be doing so much more then knocking on 100 doors and usually reaching NO ONE!!
WHEN WE ALL GET TO HEAVEN! Will those that have lied,mislead,false teachings,broke families up,stole money make it to Heaven? I don't think so!
Those of us that have left ntcc lead a true,REAL Christian life. not one that is bottled up in a bubble! Getting out there feed the hungry,help the homeless,give a coat to someone that has none. Stop stuffing your wallets even fatter RW,Mike K. Money does not make you closer to God. It makes you father from God!!
Ok,I am starting to ramble. I hate folks that are stuck up,think there better then folks. So it irriates to me about ntcc. Don't make friends outside of ntcc. They are so stuck up!!
CM
1. I believe most people from ntcc are just trying to trick you into talking with them so they can blab all your info to the pastor. They do not truely care about you or how you are-- they just want ammunition to justify why you are evil for leaving their cult.
Information is knowledge, and knowledge is power. That being the case, It's no wonder that NTCC controls the flow of information like they do among their members and most of them are content to live in ignorant bliss of their surroundings and just let others do the thinking for them.
It is easier to let ntcc make all the life decisions. The important one's are done for you. Your schedule for the day is planned,what you will wear,music you listen to,who your friends are,when you take a vacation(conference),even where you live. RW wants ministers to not live more then one mile from where they hold Church. And in WA,he wants everyone to live close to each other. So they end up spying on each other.
Remember when you were growing up. You didn't want your parents to dictate what you wore,who your friends were,your music taste's. But you leave home and get brainwashed into thinking ntcc knows best.
It is quite an adjustment when a person leave's ntcc. You actually have to rely on GOD to help guide your path!!
CM
About the Facebook thing. You can make it so your picture doesn't show when people look for you. I have mine set so all you can find is my name. I have it set so you can't even see my friend list. Why? I don't want everyone to know who my friends are and what I look like. LOL
The NTCC doesn't want you making too many decisions in life. The consider that rebellion.
Jeff
What decisions were left to me while in ntcc!
When to go grocery shopping. If i wanted to go with a friend. Had to call up and ask for permission. Always felt like a fool when I had to do that!
What outfit to wear from the approved cloths that we could afford to get. Had to always be dry clean cloths!!!
Which Southern Gospel group to listen to. RW likes hillbilly music,so of course everyone wants to be like RW.
I hear now that Country Music(worldy music) is now allowed!
How we could afford to get to conference. Usually driving for four days cross country!!
What was decided for us. Our taste in cloths,men all wear same haircut,women all have poofs or whatever it is,they all do the same style! Your taste in music is decided for you. When you shop,fit it inbetween five or six church services A WEEK!
Go on a Vacation,NOT. You would be abonded your poor defensless Church members. They can not survive without the Pastor there AL THE TIME> While we watch Church members do as they please!
Even what kind of board games the kids play. NO DICE!!
When you had friends over. Do not pull out the board games and actually have.....FUN! You had to sit and TALK,and EAT! Oh boy,that was always so much fun. BORING!
No bowling,now skating,no sports events. NO LIFE!!
Sure there is some I am missing. Others can fill it in for me!
CM
I hated having to wait in line to get permission, especially when Rev. whoever decided it was time to go and just walked away without everyone getting to talk to him.
OH,that is right. I forgot that MK would get bored from all of us. And just leave.
So there would go our plans for the next day. If we had wanted to have someone over,do something during the day.
I can also remember ladies afraid to talk to each other at the mail box at there apartments. Or if they bumped into each other in a grocery store. Say Hi and keep on walking! As if we were almost complete strangers! CRAZY! The only folks we could be friends with. We had to pretend we did not know each other in public. BECAUSE,we did not have permission to talk to each other!!
CM
That's right. You could say hello but more than that was wrong. You had to call and ask if you could talk to someone or call them. I remember one new sister crying because she thought nobody liked her when it was the stupid rules.
Ntcc is full of clique's!!!!
If you do not get in with the folks rw likes then your on the outside looking in.
I was not part of the IN CROWD!
I look back now and I am thankful I was not part of that IN CROWD. Most of them are still stuck in the cult.
CM
I watched a "America's Most Wanted" about Tony Alamos' cult tactics- if you disagree you are beaten by the 2nd guy in power. If you disagree with NTCC (unless you are the 2nd man)- you are beaten verbally and mentally- into subjection- threatened with hell. Like Jeff said- all your good works with them-labors for years - are forgotten- and you are fodder for their verbal foment.
They treat their workers like crap- yes, there I said it! As many here have testified rank "sinners" always treated you better than any in NTCC leadership.
I could have said, "many to most of their leadership", for before I left - there were a few good apples in the garbage- I could "read" J. L. Johnson- that he did not agree with RW's harshness tactics- but yet would remain silent fearing that the grand Poobah would excoriate him as well, as he most likely did to all of us, privately and publicly many times, over and over.
Today our Sunday main church service was canceled for icy road conditions. I knew I had to get on this blog and relate- WOW- how different are things now. I recall the ice storms and snow in grand ol' St. Louis- in the 1970's, never a service canceled at all to my memory! If you didn't make it- you "Didn't love God"
I often wondered why they had to have so many repeat services- now I see- thanks to these blogs- it was a necessity for ministerial training: to raise cash. I once went to El Paso- conducting a "revival" (around 1981) for Saminto's Svc Men's Home. Grand Poobah told us- if God moves have a second week of revival. We did. now I realize it was not God moving- but it was to get some new folks- and to raise cash.
NTCC is not a family- that was my perception/desire based on rose-colored glasses. I wanted to belong to an organization that really deeply cared for family members- they did no do not. Its a business and only a business. You are not a person- you are an automaton. You represent a dollar sign- that's it. Oh yes, and "You are replaceable" Stick a finger in a bucket of water- pull it out- soon the ripples dissipate- so does your effect. That is their mantra concerning your individual worth to them and to God.
However, this is not Biblical to say the least. But they taught and yet teach things that are extra-biblical. But they themselves are without accountability.
I always felt that an organization should publish a financial statement, for member/ministers to see. This kind of openness causes trust. They teach it causes "fault-finding". But beware, NTCC, some of this "fault-finding" as you see it- could be Jesus knocking at the door- saying, "Let Me in!" (Rev 3:19-20).
There is one church, one body, made up of all the redeemed, born-again people. For NTCC to not "discern" the "body" is a sin! There you go RDubb, you say you have not sinned in a while-there's your first one- (P.S: its been on-going). I pity NTCC because they will never hear me preach to them- God could bring such revival- yet they would not have it- though they need it.
"Oh, NTCC, NTCC, how many times would I have blessed you and revived you and given you REAL life- but you would not- so now your house is left desolate- you have buildings and money- but you are poor, naked, destitute and BLIND!" saith moi.
NTCC treatment of ministers: I used to watch the new BS students arrive in St. Louis- (1970's) they were so fervent- and pure in spirit. I am shocked to see how NTCC has de-humanized them into screeching automatons- little RW's as he boasts- too bad they didn't become little versions of- guess Who- Jesus?
Question: Why in the name of common sense would they send you out do carve out a work out of nothing- with no support- and they when you build it successfully- they take it as theirs?
I thought the ox had a right to the corn that was treaded out? not the oxes' overseer or organization? huh?
SECRETS OF NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIAN CHURCH
Have you seen this guy's stuff???
I cut and pasted this from a blog titled Secrets of New Testament Christian Church. Here's his blogger address:
http://newtestamentchristianimperium.blogspot.com
Your " So- Called Brother" wrote:
A Dream
Hi Readers,
I'm alive. The thing is I have been doing a lot of things at the same time. I know many readers visit the page every day to get something in the head to think about and share with other brothers and sisters inside the organization. For Good or for Bad. My opinions are the truth of my experiences inside this organization.
But let talk a little about what is going on. Yesterday a brother from New Testament Christian Church approach me to talk about: What is going on because I haven't visited the church?
But the amazing about this is not what I told him is about what happen the night before while I was sleeping.
I never have dreams I don't like dreams. That night I got a dream about people from New Testament Christian Churches in my house and approaching to me to talk about what happen with us. I talk loud and kicked them out of the house and I told them different things. Not gross/bad words. Only the reality.
The most interesting and weird event in the morning I told my wife about my dream and she told me: " I got the same dream last night"
But everything made sense when this "Spy" ( He is not the "So Called Pastor" he is the right hand) got to my place(not my house but he found me) and ask me about us.
He is looking for an answer and I will tell him the reality about what is going on.
I told him about I feel. I told him a few things and not all the reasons. I told him about my case and not about other cases I have found in the Internet.
This is really sad for me and it is honestly a bad spot for me and my family. I really wish things were different but that is only a dream in my head.
Also I'm so sorry so many people are good people and are completely blind about these leaders. In fact the "So Called Pastor" is blind too. He is working for the organization. I was asking my self the other day: " So this man has 39 or 4.. something years old and he doesn't have a place to live? He depend on the church? But my other question is: " So I suppose Kekel has a nice structure?" Talk about the Davis is waste my time because he is the owner of the organization and I know he is Business Man and not anymore as how he started as a preacher of the Gospel of Jesus. He preach to let the people know about his opinions are.
The only I want to say is all the people is different. So the bottom line is as a preacher in the Altar of the Living God you need to respect the members of that church. You are not God or the parents of those members to tell them about how the life is suppose to be looking through your eyes.
Remember your are an instrument of God and not God. Instrument doesn't mean that you will mix your opinions and your interest with the interest of Jesus. I know that you know that the only interest of Jesus is give us life in abundance. But I don't know your interest in your heart and only God knows. I'm not sure how deep this business is in your heart. The money machine of the Church. Nice dream live like the Kekel's family without work.
This is my new posting and I hope you enjoy it and share with your friends and brothers of what is going on in the life of others.
Jesus is precious. He is the Gentleman of the Cross".
Thanks your " So- Called Brother"
This one post was dated Sat. May 19, 2007
I found it interesting.
Angela
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