To the left is a picture of RWD taking off with all your hard earned cash. Jeff wrote...
This is the type of treatment you can expect to receive from R.W. Davis, AKA (RDUB) or (RWD) if you are a pastor in the New Testament Christian Church.
M.D. Reed a former NTCC pastor wrote....
When I arrived at the church in Killeen, TX, back in '05, I found that the buildings were dilapidated and literally falling apart! I made a call to RWD and he upbraided me, saying, all I want to do is spend money. I told him, sir, that's not true. I just see big needs down here and I want to correct them. I told him, I'll do the work, if you'll clear the expense". His statement to me was, "Well, how much money do you have in your general fund?" Well, that ended that conversation.
I was a little discouraged at this point because I was embarrassed to invite people to a place where the shingles were coming off the roofs, the parking lot was full of holes, the siding was rotting off the buildings, and the sign was falling apart and had a crooked cross on top. I was so ashamed and thought, Graham doesn't look like this.
The NTCC leaders have always taught that the churches should be an example to the community in appearance. Killeen was just flat out ugly and had been let go at this point in time.
So when I made my next escrow deposit, I calmly asked the teller, would you please write down the balance of this account so I can check it against my books? My books said zero. She started writing and just kept right on writing! The figure that she wrote down about knocked me on my "donkey"! A little redneck lingo there for ya! She wrote down the sum of $279,000.00.
My first thought was what "your pastor" said to me on the phone, "How much do you have in your GF?" So I couldn't wait to get in my van and make the call. I said to "your" pastor", Sir, there's $279,000 in the escrow here. We could build a whole new complex. All I want to do is make some repairs. He very sternly said to me, "Reed, that's not your money." I said, Sir, I know that. All I want to do fix this church up. It's not for me.
Two years went by and one day out of the blue, I got a phone call, Reed, we're going to do some work down there. I thought to myself, this is so typical. He's got it set up that he looks like the big savior coming on the scene, and lets the local pastor know who's really in charge. I thought, well, at least the buildings are going to get fixed now.
BTW, during our time in Killeen, we did take up special offerings for a brand new piano and church sign. Many times in my infamous "career" with NTCC
Jeff said...
It's crying shame and a recurring practice for New Testament Christian Church pastors to take up special offerings for keyboards and church signs when it's been proven that substantial amounts of money exist in the churches escrow accounts. For the record: I don't blame the individual church pastors as long as they get a conscience sooner than later and stop doing it. You pastors need to get control of these escrow accounts and stop allowing the NTCC leadership to motivate you to play these "crook" games. Stop bleeding your people every time you need money and start holding RWD's feet to the fire to come off the orgs cash or you should leave. I've read too many stories where church pastors have tried to use their church funds only to get shot down by the New Testament Christian Church leadership and more specifically RDUB the swindler. This is why I don't blame the church pastors, but the word is out now so ignorance ain't going to work when you stand before God. Man the most basic of fundamentals in Christianity is to love they neighbor. How can you claim to love them when you knowingly take their money when it's not even needed? Would you want them to do that to you? You don't think church members need money also? What if I went to my pastor and asked for help paying my mortgage when I knew I had ten times the amount needed to take care of it? What do you think he'd call me if he found out? A crook and a swindler. Well that is R.W. Davis and Kekel and Olson and the whole general board. RDUB has taught them how to be crooks and now they think is just "good business"; well it's not. Church members are being taken advantage of. NTCC pastors have told me, "well you got to have a back up fund". Rubbish.
Have RWD and Kekel stop living like Kings and there is your back up fund. Sell all the RV's and drive like normal people and there is your back up fund. RDUB is a crook. If you've ever given money to the NTCC (like I did) for things like church signs, (like I did) then you got taken to the cleaners. You got bamboozled, hoodwinked, and the big flim flam. The NTCC leadership will absolutely take up special offerings and raise money to pay for expensive church upgrades when substantial amounts of money already exist in the church accounts.
For those of you who don't understand what I'm saying let me spell it out for ya. It's like your child coming to you and asking for yet more money to attend a field trip, when you've already given your child the money and more than was needed in the first place. Then you give them the extra money that they asked for, just to find out that they had more than enough money which they never even used. Do you get it now? This has happened over and over again in the NTCC. I wrote a check for $150 to pitch in for a church sign when I now know that without doubt the NTCC had more than enough money for 1000 church signs 50 times over. To make a long story short, they'd rather spend your money than theirs, and guys like me were stupid enough to keep kicking it out. You are a flat out idiot if you keep giving money to the NTCC now that you know the obvious. The NTCC leadership USES people and it's just that simple. They'd let you give your last dime before they'd part with their millions and then they claim that it was your duty and you really should have given more.
The NTCC sucks.
Jeff
405 comments:
1 – 200 of 405 Newer› Newest»Matt said:
"The figure that she wrote down about knocked me on my "donkey"! A little redneck lingo there for ya! She wrote down the sum of $279,000.00."
Don said:
Most of what I'm about to say does not apply to Matt and Debbie to my knowledge. If I remember right, in Augusta, you had a job and supported the work there and didn't take up any "out of the ordinary offerings". I also don't remember you being a Drill Sargent, Matt. You seemed more laid back than what I was used to.
279k in the church escrow really pisses me off. I wonder how much the escrow was in Fayetteville or Hephzibah? I remember so many preachers hammering us for money. We were nothing more than a cash cow for servicemen's homes for years. They would scream, "Nobody gives as much money to the work of Gawd as I do" and "If you love God you will give above and beyond your tithe". "You didn't mind giving your money to the devil" and so on. When you hand your money to RWD you are pretty much handing it to the devil. It does not go where the preacher says it's going so therefore it goes into the hands and control of a liar. The devil is the father of all lies so you connect the dots.
I don't fault the individual preachers for this because they are under immense pressure to produce and to increase the value of ntcc real-estate. All this is done with hell being the chief motivator. They preach about hell to those that are supposed to be saved more than they preach just about any other topic. This conditions the believer to do things out of fear that they would normally take time and common sense to make a decision. Here is an example:
Preacher preaches message entitled: "A Living Christ in a Dying World". During his sermon he uses different examples of what is considered to be outright sin that people partake in, like drinking and smoking and lying and stealing, etc. Then he sprinkles in some ntcc policies and doctrines to make the regulars feel a twinge of guilt, like lack of dedication to prayer and not bringing enough people to church and so on. Then he throws a couple holiness bones out there to make those under their control feel like they are still saved even though they just got their fields plowed and then they start in with the guilt trips about how the "House of God" is being neglected and how you have all the money in the world to do the things you want to do. Then, without time to think anything over they have you bow your heads and pray for God to lay a figure on your heart to give to their cause. They will sprinkle in a few phrases like, "can you feel God tugging on the strings of your heart"? And they'll then quote a scripture little quiver in their voice like, "What would it profit if a man were to gain the whole world and loose his soul?" Then they will pass around the bucket for a special offering sometimes right in the middle of the service where they not only ask for your money but sometimes they want your free labor and they might even want you to make a monthly pledge. Finally they finish with salvation and another alter call so some new unsuspecting 18 year old kid can be introduced to ntcc style salvation and get hoodwinked into giving his life to a program that controls him for many years.
to be continued....
Continued.....
This stuff is taught through repetition at conferences and bible school and during revivals by board members and the tradition is carried on by the local Pastors.
All the time that I spent in the homes it never dawned on me that these thieves, liars and crooks have escrows with hundreds of thousands of dollars in them and meanwhile we are giving so much that we can't afford a cup of coffee at IHOP. We were encouraged to change our own oil in our vehicles and pour the oil between the chainlink fence and the neighbors wooden fence in the backyard of the Fayetteville home.
They were all about teaching us ways to save money so we would be able to give more to the "needs of the work of the Lord".
If you are in the ntcc and you are reading this stuff and not asking your so called loving pastor in Graham or Arizona or wherever he is vacationing, why he is sucking everybody dry while he and his sycophantic suck-ups are living in luxury while sitting on millions of Dollars in escrow funds, then at least pray about it and ask God why He would do such a thing and let us know what God says about it sense you think we are all devils.
Will someone shake the fog out of their eyes and look at this for what it is? These people are not Christians and they are not in it for souls or for love. It's about money period.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange said,
"You didn't mind giving your money to the devil"
does not compare to paying tithe and offerings in the ntcc. with the devil you know where you money is going.
Jeff said, "This has happened over and over again in the NTCC. I wrote a check for $150 to pitch in for a church sign when I now know that without doubt the NTCC had more than enough money for 1000 church signs 50 times over."
Jeff, did I mention that when arriving at this work, the church needed song books in a bad way. I made the call (I always hated making those stupid calls), asking if we could make the purchase. At this point I didn’t know there was $279,000.00 in the escrow acct. The reply on the other end of the phone was "take up an offering". Fleecing the sheep is Rdub's way.
mdr
Jeff said, "The NTCC leadership USES people and it's just that simple."
Jeff, this statement should say "RWD USES people and it's just that simple." Here's another account. The bed in the minister's quarters there in Killeen needed to be replaced. We had money in the general fund at this point and so I made the call and asked if we could make the purchase. Once again I was shot down a few days later I called K A Gandy who is pastoring in North Carolina, and he began to tell me how that RWD let him buy a Select Comfort bed out of his general fund for the work there.
I was just a "little" upset over that, but I got over it. So I went out and bought a Select Comfort out of my own money, and threw that 20 yr old mattress in the shed.
Well, when it came time to leave this work, I asked RWD if I could sell my Select Comfort to the work there in Killeen. He began to lay a guilt trip on me about selling something to the work. He said "Reed, why don't you just give it to the work?" So, like a good “party liner”, I gave the bed to the work. That was a $1,700.00 gift. Here's the clincher, when we got to WA, one night in fellowship he asked me what I did with the bed. I told him that I gave it to the work. He looked at me and said "What? You gave it to the work, why didn't you sell it to the work?" I sat there thinking this dude is a swindler.
I would like to say my wife and I did this as unto the Lord, and He has blessed us for it. I only share this account to show how that RWD manipulates people and their finances.
mdr
Don and Ange wrote...
"You didn't mind giving your money to the devil"
Jeff said...
I totally forgot about that being one of the tactics they'd use. Now that you remind me I can't tell you how many times I heard and NTCC pastor make that statement.
"You didn't mind giving your money to the devil"
Ain't that something. Now I know it was no more than a psychological guilt trip phrase that RWD dreamed up. The real devil was the NTCC leadership who gladly accepted our money when there was tons in the escrow accounts and RWD didn't want to come off it when our pastors asked.
Listen here. I would much rather give my money to a baseball park, a football stadium, or a basketball arena, and hoot and holler as a sports fan rather than put one more dime into another NTCC church sign. At least there I won't find out that the pro athlete received my money under false pretenses. I don't care what he does with it. We expect them to become millionaires at our expense. Just make a series of great shots, or break a bunch of tackles, or knock one out of the park, and I just got my monies worth, and you can expect to see some of that at a professional ball game.
What do you get for your money at the NTCC? Blasted and ridiculed by a NTCC pastor like Kekel who's broken every rule that his father in law put in place while trying to tell us that we misunderstood his father in law and incidentally every single pastor we ever had. That and a church sign. Give me the ball game. I'd rather spend five dollars on a hot dog. Go Yankees!!!! Go Jets!!!! So much for Boston, their out.
Jeff
Matt Reed said...
Jeff, did I mention that when arriving at this work, the church needed song books in a bad way. I made the call (I always hated making those stupid calls), asking if we could make the purchase. At this point I didn’t know there was $279,000.00 in the escrow acct. The reply on the other end of the phone was "take up an offering". Fleecing the sheep is Rdub's way.
Jeff said...
Wow there you guys go again. Thanks alot Matt. Now I can get upset all over again because of yet more money that I no doubt ignorantly gave away. I was definitely in some churches that got new song books. Who knows how much I coughed up for that one. Here are the big ones. Pews, songbooks, church signs, and keyboards. RDUB ain't going to be interested in coming off corporate money for those items. It don't matter if the church has $279,000. RWD will say, "Take up another offering". He is such a crook and a swindler.
I know you say RWD Matt but Olson and Kekel are just a guilty as he is. On a bank robber team those two are the drivers. They may not crack the vault like RWD but they drove the get away vehicle. Bro, they live in Graham. Those guys know exactly what is going on. They are just as guilty as RWD. The difference between them and an ordinary church pastor is they see this stuff every day, but understandably, it takes a pastor some time to figure it out. Sooner or later, all these pastor who figure it out, and who really have a conscience leave the NTCC. The ones who have no conscience never have a problem with fleecing the sheep and they'll die expecting yet another hand out for yet another wore out set of song books.
These special offerings need to stop completely and the church members need to hold their pastors feet to the fire.
Church members: you need to tell your pastor this: "The money that we give, we want you and a faithful elder in the church to have control of. We want the books open so that people in the church know how much is there. If we need song books and there is $38,000 dollars in the church fund, then the money gets taken out of the fund to buy the books and don't call Graham to ask for permission. If the Graham leadership doesn't trust you, then the whole church will break away from the NTCC and we'll do our own thing." You tell your pastor that you want to see how the account is set up and you want to make sure he can access it for the needs of the church. Period, or don't give another dime to the NTCC until they get it right.
Denis may have been a crook, (which in my opinion he was) but he was smart to stop putting all that money into the NTCC account. All you have to do is stop putting money into the "NTCC's" escrow and stop sending money to Graham and tell the NTCC Leadership you're putting it in your own account that your church has control of and then if they don't like it leave with all your church members. All you have to do is have them read this thread and they'll leave with you. Especially when you tell them that there is thousands of dollars in escrow which you have no control of, and when you called Graham asking for money, they told you to take up an offering. I'll guarantee your church members will have your back all the way.
Jeff
Yes there should be checks and balances but RWD has obviously and plainly abused the control he has over the money. You NTCC pastors who care about your souls better take this stuff seriously because there is no way you can convince any just man that God approves of these kind of practices.
Taking up special offerings when there is tons of money in escrow? If your church members knew it they wouldn't give unless they are idiots. You are steeling from them and you are the same as a thief. The money they've already given is enough for church expenses and they shouldn't have to give any more in the form of a special offerings.
Jeff
Medrano used the devil alot in his preaching.
Alcohol was devil juice
Earings were devil stirrups
Bars and nightclubs were devil bars and devil clubs
A lot of sinners were referred to as devils
"You have no problem giving your money to the devil" he'd always say.
Yeah, I'm learning that all these NTCC guys used the same catch phrases, and guess where they all came from?
RDUB the swindler.
Jeff
they use the devil so much he should be on payroll
This thread has got to be one of the most damning threads to date. Many of the stories of corruption up to this point have probably been shrugged off by many as trivial. How do you shrug off over one quarter of a million dollars? Why on earth would you need that much money in an escrow account? We are not talking about a building fund for a new church here.
On Deborah's witness in the sidebar there was a link to a SlideShare document that explained the purpose of the ntcc escrow accounts; seemingly this document will not download any more since this 279k escrow fiasco surfaced. Nowhere in this document did the explanation reveal any reason whatsoever for a local church or servicemen's work to require that much money to be in an escrow. It could be a glitch but I think the ntcc is going to get their butts handed to them on this 1/4 million+$ escrow scandal.
I hope that anyone that has been considering abandoning the sinking ship will do so when they read this thread. If anyone has a back-up copy of the ntcc escrow explanation letter signed by kekel you can email it to us at 1gi2another@gmail.com and we will incorporate it into our most recent blog post where it will definitely highlight our new topic.
We request that all ntcc'rs who read this and all other forums of this nature would prayerfully consider the nature of this revelation. Is this really the kind of church that God wants you to be a part of?
Don and Ange
"they use the devil so much he should be on payroll"
Uh, he is...RWD is not retired yet is he?
TB
Killeen has been around for years and there are other works that have been around for just as long where NTCC is taking out more than they are putting into it. It also is very telling that MDR and even his first pastor, Lee Taylor, are no longer with the NTCC. What did they see that current NTCCers are refusing to see?
Here's the escrow explanation on DS or GS site on SlideShare:
ntcc Escrow Explanation
I'm don't exactly understand your point or question but let me give it a shot. People leave the NTCC for a verity of reasons. Some just don't want to go to church, others don't like the NTCC and others spend decades with the NTCC and stick around long enough to figure out that RWD and his partners are crooks and swindlers.
This is the case with M. Reed. He could no longer remain part of an organization ran by swindlers. He could no longer justify remaining part of a group that blatantly practices double standards and hypocrisy. He was no longer interested in taking RWDs abuse because that is exactly what it is and it has nothing to do with God. I don't know Taylors complete story other than RWD wanted him to sell his house and move again and he wasn't going to do it. He got sick of seeing people like the Kekels living a stable lifestyle while he and his family moved every couple years. Basically RDUB want him to sell his house, he refused, RWD used him for pulpit and or personal verbal target practice and he left the NTCC for good.
I don't blame him because the NTCC sucks.
Hey Don and Ange,
The SlideShare copy loads fine. So does the embedded page on your Blog. SlideShare just usually takes a while to load. I sent you a copy anyway.
A different picture of Pastor Davis you might want to consider for your post is in the 1992 copy of the "Student Handbook." This one shows Pastor Davis having a PhD and a DD below his picture.
Gregory
Thanks Gregory,
I considered using the picture from the newer handbook but think that R-dub looks more like a snake oil salesman in the 1980 handbook picture. We might use the 1992 handbook picture also in the same post because it begs the question: "When did R-dub find the time to get his Doctorate between the 1980 and 1992?" How did he go from having a Just a PHD in 1980 to having a PHD and a D.D. in 1992 while Pastoring an Organization. They sure didn't have online universities back then.
We already know the answer. RDUB has none of it. He's lucky to have a GED in Theology. If he has anything at all it is quite likely non accredited. Some church he was with may have given him an honorary degree at best but the likelihood of him having a real degree is slim to none.
He probably doesn't even have something as legitimate as the NTCC offers which ain't very legitimate.
I no longer believe anything that man says or does. He runs more people away from Christ than he'll ever bring. He certainly runs more people away from his organization. Actually I could be wrong. He may draw more people to Christ by simply running them away from his corporation. Once they leave the NTCC, their mind can become clear enough to figure out what serving God is really all about. Either way, the ends don't justify the means in his case. He is a swindling crook.
Jeff
Don and Ange said,
"How did he go from having a Just a PHD in 1980 to having a PHD and a D.D. in 1992"
D.D. is usually an honorary degree.
Anonymous said:
"D.D. is usually an honorary degree."
Don and Ange said:
Usually when you earn or are given an honorary degree there is a piece of paper called....hmmm what's the word I'm looking for? Oh a degree, that's it. I'm pretty sure that the Pentecostal Church of God in Joplin didn't give him an honorary degree, so where did it come from? There were probably lots of institutions that were handing out D.D.s' to "holiness" preachers that split from other organizations amid the accusations of marital infidelity.
You might be right though anon, if he had the right friends and connections it would seem a lot more likely that he was given a D.D. Degree (worthless as the minister's licenses that he issues out). Otherwise he would have had to earn it.
D.D. is usually an honorary degree.
So that means that the PHD was probably a lie. Whats new?
DD, PHD Blah.
GED or SwindlerD or maybe ShysterD. Maybe CrookD. Psychology manipulatorD. Money GrubberD. Treat people like garbageD. Run people off who think with their brainD. Yeah, he's become a professional in a lot of different fields.
Jeff
Con ArtistD
Let's help these people out a bit. They got the phony titles, now all they need is the fake piece of paper. Note the prominent use of the letter X in their ad.
Send your CASH NOW.
Anybody can git a PHD or even two of dem if dat's what dey want. Then ya ain't lyin' now are ya?
I might just go n get me one of dem piled higher and deeper degrees mah self by clickin' on dat link above. Ya that's what I'm a gonna do. Use to send away for 'em in da mail for 'em, but now da internet makes it real easy like.
Why do you think that money was in that account? Because the pastors did not have control it.
Reed did what all those that leave say they will NOT do, trash NTCC. They all do it.
NOBODY is running off with my money!! You need to stop telling things wrong. If I serve the Lord. Obey his word. Guard my heart, I can have what ever I want to have and I do. Paying tithe is right. Giving offerings is right. Praying in the Holy Ghost is right and living is obedience is right.
AND you can offer me NOTHING that will bless me like doing all the above. Not you or anyone else.... and that SIR is a fact!
How about those monthly draws you got... you did not reject them... did you?
OTP
"Reed did what all those that leave say they will NOT do, trash NTCC. They all do it."
Once the delusions vanish, it is a matter of personal responsibility to warn others. If NTCC wasn't guilty, there would be no worries about it getting trashed. I wish I'd have had access to some of these data before I got sucked in.
If you ever wake up, you'll do it too, if you care a fig about others.
OTP said,
"Reed did what all those that leave say they will NOT do, trash NTCC. They all do it."
as long as it is trash talk behind the pulpit right otp! wait until your bean patch gets dug up unjustly!
You down with OPP wrote...
NOBODY is running off with my money!!
Jeff said...
If you believe that then someone ran off with your mind. If you've ever given money toward what the NTCC calls "special offerings" then they ran off with your money. Why in the world would you need a "special" offering when there is $279,000 in the account? Why does the NTCC leadership and RWD promote guilt tripping people into giving more money when they are sitting with $297,000 in the account? Because they are running off with your money that's why.
The term "Running off with your money" is the same as accepting or taking someone's money using unjust methods. Here, I have a great idea. Every time the NTCC leadership has a pastor take up a special offering they need to have him boldly announce how much is in the escrow account. Tell your church, "I need to take up a special offering for song books and oh by the way there is $279,000 in our church account" and see how many church members are stupid enough to give you one single dime. At that point, most certainly wouldn't but whoever did is a dummy.
OPP, I want to know where you live. I have plenty of money but obviously that doesn't matter. Give me your address so I can come to your house looking for a hand out. I'll make it easy. You can make monthly installments. You never had a problem giving your money to the devil? Why not let me and my family have it. I won't run off with it. I'll put it to good use.
Jeff
OTP said...
How about those monthly draws you got... you did not reject them... did you?
Jeff said...
Oh the little cheesy (keep your mouth shut pacify your brother draws) to supplement the sorry $150 a week for dudes who work the serviceman's homes? Don't insult me with that mess. I've talked to enough NTCC ministers to know that the draws don't amount to that much. What, 2 or 3K every now and then when RDUB wants to be the hero? Add that to the $150 a week and you are still living below the poverty level. Don't do me any favors and I have a better idea. Leave the crooked, swindling NTCC and you won't need a "pacify your puppy dog" draw just to keep out of the cheese line and the bargain basement book store. You can keep the NTCC and then I don't need your cheesy draws and for you to tell me when I can spend money that is supposed to be in my church account.
And additionally OTP, you asked...
Why do you think that money was in that account? Because the pastors did not have control it.
Jeff said...
What kind of crap is that? They don't have control of it so every time the church needs money you have the pastor with no control call Graham to ask permission to use the money just for the Graham swindlers tell him, "take up another offering".
So your saying that the NTCC leadership doesn't want to spend their money but they have no problem spending mine?
You think you are obeying his word and guarding your heart while using that approach on your congregation? You don't even know the meaning of the words "righteousness" or "common decency". You are no more than a crook and plenty of crooks have plenty of money OTP. You are full of it. I you want to be learn righteousness you start by spending your own money and stop looking for a hand out from your church members every time you need new song books. Especially when you are sitting with $279,000 in the church account.
OTP, if you really believe what you wrote you are a crook.
Jeff
Let's remember that is just 1 account, how many other "works" are there? 40-50? If the average work has 50k in the account that is 2-3 million sitting in ntcc bank accounts. Meanwhile they cannot afford to give the ministers or their families health insurance or life insurance for that matter. And to top it off...they recommend that you opt out of social security!!! Dummies, that it the only retirement money you will ever see!!! Wake up!
TB
Why do you think that money was in that account? Because the pastors did not have control it.
The statement above is a perfect example of what they think of you, ntcc pastors. You can't be trusted. And if everything is being run aboveboard why the secrecy about finances and zeroing out the books for the next man so he can't see what is in there?
They really don't trust their own pastors but you better trust them. I'll take it one step further, they don't trust the membership in general so they have to make all the rules. But of course they don't have to follow them themself. The whole organization is based on the fallacy that leadership can never do wrong.
Not talk about mind numbing control tactics and financial practices that definitely don't avoid the appearance of evil, thats hogwash.
Expose the evil for what it is. That document from Kekel said to ask questions about anything any time. Go ahead and try that and see what happens to you, I double dog dare you.
Jeff you need to take in to acount.. free food.. free drink.. frood room and board.. free electric... free water and sewage... even free phone... after all of that, $150 a week $600 month doesn't sound too bad...
I never saved as much money as I did when I was in servicemen's work - Fact!
OTP said...How about those monthly draws you got... you did not reject them... did you?
I think Reed mentioned getting one draw from that work in the time he was there while all the time deposting into escrow and finding out about the monthly escrow payments from another pastor, but not being included in it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Is the big issue here how much the pastors make or raising of finances and handling of escrow accounts?
Pastor Briggs said...
Jeff you need to take in to account.. free food.. free drink.. food room and board.. free electric... free water and sewage... even free phone... after all of that, $150 a week $600 month doesn't sound too bad...
Jeff said...
Yeah but what about the end of the road? You ain't going to be living in that serviceman's home.
$600 a month does sound bad when I have close to $9000 a month coming in at my house. Phone, (sewage that I don't pay for anyway because I have a septic tank) water that literally cost me an average of $17 a month, food is a big one which I'll admit, electric is a good one, rent or mortgage, and your looking about, another $2000. Well $2000 + $600 is poverty level and a far cry from what I have coming in. Then I'd have to pay Medical insurance for my whole family cause the NTCC INC sure ain't providing it. There is about $1200. Dental, who knows how much that would be. Well that just knocked down the $600 + $2000 pretty quick.
See the NTCC mentality has folks thinking that's not that bad but in my book it is. Not only that but none of that justifies taking up special offerings if there is over lets say $10,000 in the church account. The NTCC INC doesn't have a problem with their church members living from paycheck to paycheck but they don't want to do it which is why they have $279,000 in an account while "STILL" taking up special offerings. Anything above 10K and there is no way there should be any special offerings. The NTCC wants fat safety accounts at the expense of their church members financial safety. I don't buy it.
What about health insurance. My job provides that for my whole family at no extra cost to me. There is another $1200 a month easy and I pay "ZERO" additional fees. My job gives paid vacation and plenty of it. Probably a total of close to 60 days a year and my pay don't stop. There is another $15,000 worth of benefits. My job gives dental for my whole family for a marginal fee of like only $35 a month. Now that is probably about another $3000 a year. My job gives $500,000 life insurance. That's another good chuck of money I'd have to kick out as a pastor.
You add all that up and I'm at probably close to $11,000 coming in monthly. Well that is a whole lot more than what the NTCC is giving a serviceman's home pastor. There are serviceman's home pastors that are my age who came in the military when I did. Why doesn't the NTCC compensate them accordingly? They do for Mike Kekel!!! Pastor Briggs, at almost 50 years old (which I am) the kind of compensation that you are talking about is an insult.
I know you don't serve God for pay but why should the "NTCC INC" save so much money at the expense of their pastors and church members while driving RVs, living in mansions and holding $279,000 in who know how many escrow accounts while taking up special offerings for song books and church signs?
It's bogus Sir.
Jeff
$600 is a total joke! Does the ntcc make their car payment for them or expect them to buy an oil puking junker? Thats a great testimony of the blessings of God. Do they pay their car insurance? Do they pay any of the other bills like storage fees for all their junk they left in storage because they couldn't bring it with them? What if they have credit card payments because at the previous work they were in they needed a piano and the leaders at ntcc would not let them spend escrow money on it, and they had too much integrity to extract the money from their congregation so they bougt it on credit? $600 bucks is a joke. What if they or their wife need glasses or a tooth pulled? Do they have to beg for it? Or are they told to pray or take up an offering?
Don
What new testament model do they use for not allowing pastors to use the money as they see fit? This $279,000.00 stinks to high heaven and everyone with half a brain knows this. Perhaps Rev. Briggs or someone out there could answer this question. If you knew you had that kind of money in escrow could you honestly take up an offering for $2,000.00 from your congregation in good conscience for carpet or church pews or whatever?
Don
They don't trust you because they don't trust themselves. They are just like the federal government. They know how to spend that money better than you do. Thats why they drive around in Cadillacs and beemers while you limp down the road in a Ford pinto. They don't love you like they claim they do. This is not love. Love don't count the cost. It is not in their heart to love, that is why they only offer lip service.
Don
$600 Spending
$800 (min. for Rent)
$250 (Easy for food)
$150 (for use of company Vehicle)
$100 (Electric)
$50 (Gas)
$50 (Water)
$2000 Month and that is very minor estimate. As EVERY one of you knows.
Then take in the so called "bonus" draws
Expense Reimbursmenets that they all get to claim.
Gifts and love offerings.
Most times members give Director's offerings to go to conference on or outright buy their tickets.
So he starts with a conservative estimate of about $24,000 a year base (and really it is more then that).
Gets draws, love offerings, now they get a portion every month from their monthly take in.
They can make $30 - $40 K Easy.
Not to bad I say! After all they don't have kids!
I don't think I ever saw Reed drive anything but a Caddi.. except maybe once or twice.. Always had nice suits.. and very expensive Guns by the car load...
Try to tell me again that the man was hoodwinked and taken advantage of.
Last statement I think I heard him make was outside of the doors on the camp ground and I quote "I'm tired of lining other peoples pockets"
Translation: I want to start lining my own.
"Translation: I want to start lining my own."
Nothing wrong with that, unless he's lining them with RW's favorite substance: OPM (Other Peoples' Money--according to RW's own admission, the key to wealth).
RB said,
"$600 Spending
$800 (min. for Rent)
$250 (Easy for food)
$150 (for use of company Vehicle)
$100 (Electric)
$50 (Gas)
$50 (Water)"
"They can make $30 - $40 K Easy"
taxes and insurance?
retirement?
And when they are 50 years old and they've worked in 10 different servicemans homes, I suppose that would be a good age to start buying furniture? Kind of like Taylor tried to do right before RWD insisted that he go back out again. Pastor Briggs, life is real. One day you want to retire right? Or is RWD and his daughter the only ones who get to do that? You can run around for 2 decades getting $600 a month but when it's time to settle down you ain't got jack. You don't have your own furniture, appliances, power and gas tools like mowers and such.
Once you leave decades of servicemen's homes you got to start out fresh while RWD continues to accumlate millions and Kekel lives like a King. Tanya and Mike don't have a child anymore so why not go pastor a servicemen's home? Fat chance. That kind of life is only for the manual labor dudes and dudettes.
All the freebies still don't equate to income that you can buy things with. How come every last servicemen's home pastor that I ever had drove old broke down vehicles? Not one ever had a nice car that I remember and in fact, it was the total opposite. They were all junk. You'll never own the actual house the servicemen live in like the house that I live in and I'm buying. If the serviceman's homes were such a good deal than why doesn't Kekel pastor one? Also, why are guys like Barnes and Briggs the ones with stability?
What would you rather have? Free rent so you can live with a bunch of GI's in house you'll never own or a "real" income so you can buy your own house? The serviceman's homes are set up for one reason. To snatch gullible, lonely GI's who all have a steady income and all like to say "YES SIR" so they can stroke RDUBs ego.
I remember Mayers saying that he'd like to be the pastor of a serviceman's home because then he wouldn't have any problem getting people to listen to him. RDUB likes the obedient kind because they are easier to brainwash. He is not interested people who can think on their own.
Jeff
would OTP translate to office of the president?
just askin
RWD = Rollin With the Devil
lol
You did not give answer to my question.... what is offered better than what I have.... NOTHING!! You don't like that do ye.
OTP
"You did not give answer to my question.... what is offered better than what I have.... NOTHING!! You don't like that do ye."
I don't know if you've ever seen that old poster from the '70s, but...YOUR PROBLEM IS OBVIOUS.
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1078&bih=751&q=your+problem+is+obvious
Well, that link is truncated, so you'll have to do the work and search Google Images for the phrase.
nope have not seen and do not care to. What I have is good, right, and blessed...
"nope have not seen and do not care to. What I have is good, right, and blessed..."
you don't even sound genuine enough to be an ntccer!
OPP asked...
You did not give answer to my question.... what is offered better than what I have.... NOTHING!! You don't like that do ye.
Jeff said...
If you are with the NTCC I have an answer. A real life. Of course if you are still with the NTCC you don't have one, but it's pretty hard to miss something you don't have or know very little about. If you ever do get a real life, (by leaving the NTCC) you will then realize what you were missing and you will also realize that I had something which you didn't prior to you departing the NTCC.
If you are with the NTCC and you have a real life, then you are a hypocrite which would mean that I still have something you don't. A conscience. A conscience is a good thing. Hypocrites don't have one but of course to a hypocrite, that doesn't matter. That's what makes them a hypocrite. Wow, I just figured out another thing you don't have. A real shot at heaven, at least according to the Bible. Jesus didn't speak very well of hypocrites so it's unlikely there will be too many in heaven. So what is the end result?
If you are still with the NTCC there are at least two things that you don't have and maybe three.
1. A life, unless your a hypocrite.
2. A conscience.
3. A real shot at heaven.
There, that was easy.
Jeff
He, he, ha, ha, LOL. I make myself laugh sometimes. Y'all got to give me some credit. My last message was pretty good. I feel like I just won a chess game. It's called outsmarting your opponent. When your up against OPP, that ain't too difficult. Now Pastor Briggs is a different story. He is a pretty good chess player. Hopefully his is not OPP you know me. If he is he is slipping. I doubt it because Pastor Briggs has pretty good logic and pretty good logic was seriously lacking in OPP's messages. He didn't even use good NTCCer super spiritual rhetoric. His stuff was home grown.
Jeff
Wow Vic, I just looked that up.
That was pretty gross. Having said that it's not a gross as the NTCC leadership who advocates taking up special offerings when there is $279,000 in the escrow account.
Jeff
RB said, "Last statement I think I heard him make was outside of the doors on the camp ground and I quote "I'm tired of lining other peoples pockets"
Translation: I want to start lining my own."
You think you heard him make? Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and...
Somebody needs to report Briggs to Dub, because I think he's smoken crack.
"You did not give answer to my question.... what is offered better than what I have.... NOTHING!! You don't like that do ye."
Living for God according to your conscience and not a bunch of rules made up by Pharisee leaders. Thats far better. Try it, you'll like it.
Jeff said, "That was pretty gross. Having said that it's not a gross as the NTCC leadership who advocates taking up special offerings when there is $279,000 in the escrow account."
Maybe RB needs to take a look at the photo because that's exactly what he looks like defending Rdub and that crooked org that he's in.
RB said,
"$600 Spending
$800 (min. for Rent)
$250 (Easy for food)
$150 (for use of company Vehicle)
$100 (Electric)
$50 (Gas)
$50 (Water)"
Don and Ange said:
Having a job with benefits and retirement and paying your own bills (priceless)
$600 a month may not be bad for the renter.
It makes it seem like ol Rdub in sheeps clothing is looking out for your welfare and providing inexpensive rent.
When the reality is, he is providing you cheap rent, but his goal is to profit and i bet he is profiting from that "cheap rent".
Anonymous said...
Somebody needs to report Briggs to Dub.
Jeff said...
I wouldn't say that. We may not agree with each other all the time but Pastor Briggs is pretty straight forward. I'm confident that Pastor Briggs has shared a few of his own views with Dub. Pastor Briggs hasn't always agreed with the NTCCs ways but when he does he has no problem saying it and I can respect that. I think Pastor Briggs would make a pretty good Lawyer and that is not meant to be insulting. He's also one of the few Pastors in the NTCC with any back bone.
Jeff
OTP wrote..."Reed did what all those that leave say they will NOT do, trash NTCC. They all do it."
Gregory writes..."I will not trash NTCC, but I will share what I have experienced. If this puts NTCC, and its leaders, in a bad light, this is not something that is my fault."
OTP also wrote..."How about those monthly draws you got... you did not reject them... did you?"
Gregory writes..."Regarding draws, I rejected about 40% of them during the time I was an NTCC Pastor. Why? Because being the Pastor, and having unrestricted access to the books, and being able to forecast monthly church income, I determined the church could not safely pay me an 'Exp Reimb & Off.' At times Pastor Davis authorized me a 'special additional draw.' Some of these I tried to turn down at first (citing the church could not afford it), but Pastor Davis made it easier to accept (through his standard manipulation tactics...you don't need money, you can't trust God to pay the church's bills, etc.), than to reject. This largess (with my local church's money) by Pastor Davis created an additional burden on the finances of the church. Of course, all additional money was just spent on conferences, etc."
Gregory
Anonymous said:
"Maybe RB needs to take a look at the photo because that's exactly what he looks like defending Rdub and that crooked org that he's in."
Don and Ange said:
"Not sure if that photo will win him over to our side. He's under the same delusion we were all under. We sometimes forget that we were once believers and followers of the ntcc. Now that we are out, it's as plain as day that the ntcc is a destructive cult. People on the inside are programmed to believe that anything that opposes their doctrine is an attack from the devil.
We speak the truth and it is twisted into evil because it comes from without and is perceived as an attack from the devil. We know where this comes from. People are brought into the fold and experience Salvation, ntcc style. They are young and tender in heart, very impressionable and understandably believe that if they received salvation through this church and this pastor that everything else they say must be of God. We all made this mistake. How tender you are as a new Christian, determines how much favor you will get and how much attention will be given to you. Everybody wants to feel loved.
This is where it all goes wrong. Everything seems to be going right for the tenderhearted new Christian. He or She will do anything for God and has given their unwavering faith not only to God but also to pastor of that church. This is a lot of power to have over someone. At this point policies and doctrines are introduced. Opinions are put forth as commandments of God. "All Christians pay tithe and give in offerings". "Holiness or Hell". They are quickly taught that anything that opposes the ntcc is an attack of the devil.
People that are skeptical receive less favor and are often rebuked openly while the folks that have fallen for these false doctrines take it all in hook, line and sinker because it makes them feel like they are one of the "few, chosen ones". They are praised and their egos are stroked. Their hearts become hardened over time to believe that anything the ntcc teaches is fact and everything that is said against the ntcc is fiction.
Now they are so indoctrinated that their Pastor and the leaders of the ntcc can manipulate them for their purposes. They can openly rebuke others and depend on them to shout, "Amen" and "Preach". They are now so conditioned that they can be rebuked openly and abused publicly and they will blame themselves before they point their finger at their pastor. They will over look impropriety in their leaders and will turn a blind eye to any flaws they see in their own doctrinal beliefs. They have become a part of the machine and all that matters is to "make it to heaven" and that can only be accomplished by fulfilling the desires of those appointed over them.
How do I know this? Because I was the most gullible of them all. I was just like a Nazi in that I would watch them hurt folks and hurt me and I was detached from it all. It's called total and complete brainwashing and mind control. The ntcc are masters at mind control and their tentacles reach into the lives of the young and the old. There are people that preach and believe the same things we did that can't help themselves. What can we do? Pray and continue to share the truth with them. And so we continue.
Don and Ange
While most of what Rev. Briggs says and does seems hard for us to believe, there still is a willingness to hear our side and many times he has agreed with us on many issues. We find it hard to believe that he can know all the things we know and not be persuaded to leave. We don't know and may never know what effect we have on folks.
Many might not leave but they might incorporate some of what we share with them into their lives and become more reasonable and thoughtful to others. We hope for this at the very least but we continue because we want folks to be totally free from the ntcc.
Many people with the internet available to them will do an internet search of the ntcc before they get involved or they will visit the ntcc and will then search the internet to see what they are getting themselves into. When they do this they will be directed to this and other forums where they will find cult survivors like us that warn them not to get involved. These are people we can help before they become brainwashed. We can save them many years of sorrow.
One might argue, "You are keeping these people from Salvation". I would say there are much better places that God can lead someone to. There are churches where people can have salvation and love without all the hype and condemnation. I Don't remember Jesus laying guilt trips on his disciples to earn their faithfulness.
Don and Ange
OPP wrote...
OTP wrote..."Reed did what all those that leave say they will NOT do, trash NTCC. They all do it."
Jeff said....
Here is the deal. We often don't intend to expose the NTCC at the time of our departure but here is what happens. While in the NTCC, we are programed (quite effectively so) not to think evil of our organization. During that time we are all quite brainwashed. Once we leave the NTCC, we gradually and progressively internalize the realities concerning our NTCC experience and we come to the realization that the New Testament Christian Church is a real threat to our fellow citizens.
Well some of us realize that more than others. Some just want to get on with their life and they don't want to do anything with the knowledge they have. Others like myself and in this case M. Reed, realize just how much time, money, and how many opportunities we squandered away as a result of our involvement with the NTCC. We also realize that we wouldn't have messed around with the NTCC at all if we previously had the knowledge that we have now.
So the end result is that we want people to know just how crooked, abusive, and manipulative the NTCC leadership is, and armed with that information, they can at least make an informed decision. The more information we get, the more we post. If I knew for example that the NTCC kept large gobs of cash in escrow while simultaneously taking up special offerings, I'd never given the NTCC a dime. We didn't have that knowledge cause RWD keeps that stuff secret.
If I'd known that Grant was playing football and wearing shorts I would have told my NTCC pastors that they could keep their letters for my daughters school. To sum it up, if I knew then what I know about the NTCC, I'd never got involved with the NTCC in the first place and that is why this blog is here. To warn people. Stick around the NTCC and waste your life if you want to but I got better things to do with mine.
The bad part is people who are with the NTCC are partaking in other mans sins. It would be a bad thing to waste your life with the NTCC just to miss heaven anyway because you kept supporting a crook and you willfully let the blind lead you.
Maybe God cares just enough about you to use this blog as a warning? Who knows. God sure didn't tell me that but I guess it's possible.
Jeff
Jeff said:
"Maybe God cares just enough about you to use this blog as a warning? Who knows. God sure didn't tell me that but I guess it's possible."
Don and Ange said:
If it be God or just plain common sense we hope that people will take it for what it is: An opportunity to be informed and make a responsible decision.
Jeff there is something you need to consider about the escrows. The last time we had to have work done on our a/c units the bill was a huge $15,000 plus. The escrow was there to meet that need. When we purchased our building $25,000 came from our escrow to bring our monthly payment down significantly.
Soon we will be putting in about $15K in carpet and/or flooring.
These things are only possible because we have an escrow.
For things like song books that's easy to accomplish without the need of tapping the escrow. The books are now $10 each. One person giving 20 buys two books. 20 People giving a simple $20 offering covers the needs of most churches.
Your polarizing the issue when you speak as if there is nothing good that comes from having a fund that is in reserve for Emergancy and or large purchase needs.
Reed got his parking lot taken care of. Just not when He thought it should be done. In fact, he would have paid thousands more had he done it when HE wanted to do it because a paving company came by his church and made him a killer deal. God provided, he got his parking lot, and the church was saved thousand. That's how things work when you allow God to move.
How do I know this? I was at his church right after he had the lot done, his siding, sign, etc. And he was testifying then of How Good God had been.
Now, it's all negative spin. No good anywhere or in anythings.
Let me ask you guys somehting. What do you think of a guy that calls you up. Asks for hundreds of dollars from your hard earned money to go for a gift for a mutual friend. Telling you that you will be there when the figt is given and then after giving the money... buying the gift... he not only presents it without you being there... but never mentions that you were ever a part of it?
Sound familiar Reed?
Jeff why don't you say OTP's name properly? The last P stands for well
Jeff is making fun of this person's initials using a song from Naughty by Nature's - "Are you down with O.P.P." that was a popular song throughout the early 90's. You don't want to know what it really stands for...
it stands for other people's property! :- x
So Briggs mentions $55K dollars that has/will go to the purchase and upgrades to a building and no one is batting an eye? Not to mention the weekly mortgage payments (You will do whatever it takes, right?), utilities, additional church insurance costs for the size of the location, etc. The escrow deal sounds more like a shell game where you may pay regular expenses out of a general fund, but no need to ask unless you qualify for the type of expenses which can be written off as capital expenditures on taxes. Also, how much money is lost because someone is unable to act more quickly rather than waiting until a later time? With Reed's statements it sounds like he didn't even know what he had until he asked...
"it stands for other people's property! :- x" - Yeah the Reed's were living in NTCC's property and got sick of O.P.P. You don't have anything of your own in a NTCC church and anything you bring in becomes assimilated...Resistance is worthwhile...
RB wrote...
When we purchased our building $25,000 came from our escrow to bring our monthly payment down significantly.
Jeff said...
You see Sir, this is what I'm talking about. Why in the world would there be a monthly payment? Nothing you can say will justify this. The NTCC owns the building don't they? Are you making the payment to the NTCC or a mortgage company. If it's a mortgage company I understand, if not, that's garbage. The NTCC buys a building and then you have to pay rent to them? Of course I've already heard of that, but that is garbage. That is double dipping and just another NTCC money making scheme. It's like you are not even part of the organization.
You are an NTCC pastor but you rent rent a building from the NTCC? Am I correct? How is it that you guys can't see this? Good God, RWD would NEVER do what you guys have bought off on. Do you think he'd be a part of a church group and pay that organization rent on a church building that he is occupying and they own? Are you kidding me? Sir, come on! If he did it wouldn't be for long.
Here it is. The NTCC leadership has created an unending supply of trustworthy renters to rent their dorm rooms, personal houses, payed for buildings and you guys don't own JACK. Can't you see this SIR? There is so much blindness.
Pastor Briggs, your a good guy but you are killing me.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
it stands for other people's property
Jeff said...
Bingo. You won the prize. If you are an NTCC pastor, the escrow is "other people's property". The church building is "other peoples property". You don't own jack but you sure raise a lot of money for someone else. You guys are amazingly blind. I can't believe that you guys can't see this. Davis's org rakes it in and you guys shell it out.
Jeff
RB said...
These things are only possible because we have an escrow.
Jeff said...
Sir that is not true!! The NTCC could pay that stuff flat out and God only know how much money has come into your Texas areas escrow accounts over the years that never got spent? I'll bet enough money has come in to pay for carpet 20 times over. No Sir, that is not right. There is more to the story than you either know or what you are saying.
Jeff
No I don't "rent" from them. The loan was aquired and is being repayed. Period, end of story... There is a start and end date to the loan.
But why change the subject... answer the question about the charicter of a man that would do what I mentioned.
Also acknowledge that an account in reserve for such eventualities is necessary and in the two cases I mentioned makes such times easier then they otherwise would be.
THERE IS NO DOUBT that many here think the only right answer is for a church to never ask for a dime from people. That there should never be fiscal responsibility. That one person should be able to spend, spend, spend, even if the money they are spending was raised under SOMEONE ELSES tenure.
I do not.
There are flaws... and there is need for rectification. And some has already taken place. All things work together for the good. If a necessary change takes place... that's good!
But Do not sit there and try to paint Reed as a poor preacher because he was not. Anyone that knows him and his taste preferences knows he does not have the poor man mentality. (And he shouldn't).
Jeff, I know exactly how much is in my escrow. And yes, it could take care of the carpet a couple of times over. When that time comes there will not be a push to get more from the church. But small items, tables, chairs, song books these things can be taken care of without the need for tapping the reserves. The problem is that many are arguing from an emotional perspective but have no asset management experience to speak of. When you write the checks it shows you another side that you otherwise would have never considered.
Just ask any kid paying bills for the first time~!
Pastor Briggs wrote...
For things like song books that's easy to accomplish without the need of tapping the escrow. The books are now $10 each. One person giving 20 buys two books. 20 People giving a simple $20 offering covers the needs of most churches.
Jeff said....
And that mentality is the root of the problem. Easy when you are spending another person's money. 20 dollars here, 20 dollars there and you guys soak your church members when there is money in escrow. Sir you are fleecing the sheep. The 20 dollars here and 20 dollars there are exactly the times when you rightfully should use the escrow. And you know what? If there is not money in escrow than I guess you've got to wait on new carpet or a church sign or song books. And then RB to top it all off, you the pastor don't own any of it nor do you have control of it.
Jeff
RB wrote...
The problem is that many are arguing from an emotional perspective but have no asset management experience to speak of.
Jeff said...
You are only partly right. Guys like me have plenty of asset management experience. What I don't have experience with is sitting on $279,000 while taking up special offerings for song books and that is an experience I don't ever want. My conscience couldn't let me play that game. RWD has effectively taught you guys how to not have a heart and not even realize it. I could not do that with a good conscience because it's wrong. 20 dollars here and 20 dollars there is why every NTCC pastor I had drove a piece of junk. The NTCC nickle and dimes them to death. Every NTCC pastor that I ever talked to said they put their own money into the church constantly.
You guys act like the world will end if you don't sink more money into RWD's property investments. It ain't about souls. The property that you are putting money into is part of a corporation that is owned by a dude that will tell you, "if you don't like it here, there is the door."
Not only that, your church in Texas has nothing to do with M. Reed writing of the $279,000 existing in escrow while he still was being persuaded to take up offerings for song books. I know this kind of stuff is happening throughout the organization.
Jeff
Jeff, I respectfully disagree. I put my own share in and it is always more then the rest. So don't give me the fleecing the sheep. We are all in this thing together.
Your mentality is exactly why the US government is in the position it's in. Tap the funds that are set aside for specific purposes and use them for any purpose. That's wrong.
The rule is easy
General Fund pays for operating expenses
Escrow pays for major and emergency expenses
IF.. the GF does not have the ability to pay for a small purchase then the need is brought to the church. They either give or don't give. That's it. Sometimes a purchase has to be delayed while the money is saved to make it. But that's just good management.
Before an escrow deposit is made the needs are paid first. I.E. a few weeks ago we needed a new lawnmower. I didn't have to get a check the money was there waiting to be deposited. We were able to do what was necessary without "fleecing" the flock.
You can not try to find a demon under every doily
RB said...
We are all in this thing together.
Jeff said...
You said that right. All in RDUBs corporation together at his pleasure to raise money for his endeavors. So the minute an NTCC pastor upsets RWD, he sends new guy who knocks everyone in the head on some witch hunt, runs everyone off and that is what we are all in together? If we are all in it together, then why don't you have control of your escrow account. Were all in it together when it comes to giving money but we are not all in it together when it comes to making decisions about the money or controlling it.
Take up another offering and that is what we are all in together.
Jeff
RB said...
IF.. the GF does not have the ability to pay for a small purchase then the need is brought to the church.
Jeff said...
I would say that $279,000 means it had the ability but the "need" was still brought to the church members for a special offering for song books. Like I said before. Tell me there is $279,000 in the account and I'd stand up in the middle of service and tell you you're out of your mind if you tried to take up an offering for song books. That is fleecing the sheep.
Jeff
"These things are only possible because we have an escrow."
It's not so much the fact that an escrow exists that's objectionable; rather it's the lack of transparency involved. Why shouldn't the pastor of a local church even know what's in that church's escrow? It's the peoples' money, and they have a right not only to know about it, but to help decide how it is or isn't spent. But those decisions are removed from the people and even the local pastor and made by bureaucrats in Graham. It's just like us sending our tax money off to Washington, where it's squandered on various boondoggles without our approval.
The fact that NTCC acts like it has everything to hide when it comes to finances is revealing. Why wasn't Doug Allen even told that he had a building fund with thousands of dollars in it? Oh, that's right--because it had already been plundered and spent on other things. Who knows; maybe there would be a church here now if he hadn't been kept in the dark (although I can't say I'm sorry there isn't).
Pastor briggs said...
THERE IS NO DOUBT that many here think the only right answer is for a church to never ask for a dime from people. That there should never be fiscal responsibility. That one person should be able to spend, spend, spend, even if the money they are spending was raised under SOMEONE ELSES tenure.
Jeff said...
You shouldn't ask for money, if you are receiving tithe and offerings, THAT IS ENOUGH and if it's not, you want too much building for too few people. Look I'm tired of hearing about expansion. 40 years later and the NTCC has maybe 3000 members? More buildings ain't going to bring and keep more people. That is the problem. RWD has taught you guys to have all these grand ideas about expansion but the NTCC doesn't want to spend it's own money for it. It wants to keep asking the people for more money when it's sitting on millions. One minute (when it suits you) you want to be an organization and the next, individual churches and then the next, individual churches with money that a pastor shouldn't spend if it was raised by the guy before him. So every time a pastor leaves, the church members have to start out fresh again? Every time a pastor leaves the church members get soaked all over again? And you are right spend, spend, spend. If the money is in escrow and you need something, SPEND IT but don't take up special offerings when there is thousands and thousands in escrow like there is some kind of emergency. When you need song books the answer isn't "take up another offering" when there is thousands in escrow and nothing you can write or tell me will make me feel any different.
Jeff
"I put my own share in and it is always more then the rest. So don't give me the fleecing the sheep. We are all in this thing together."
Just because you're getting fleeced yourself doesn't mean you aren't fleecing the sheep.
I feel sorry for the people in graham and the others that are out there in the "field" going and going, thinking that everything amounts to something, when in reality, and according to rwd, they are just riding the bus, when they have a brand new car in the garage.
I remember while I was in graham and rwd happened to come from his travels, he would say that he was glad that he was back in graham, why? because all those pastors out there were all just doing terrible and rwd would go on and on about how the churches didn't have good music and that the pastors would soon forget the things they were taught in graham.
It is incredible that this "man of god" would say such terrible things about his own ministers.
So there you go rb, that is what your "pastor" thinks of you and your church. That is why you were invited to come to graham, because graham is the only right church in all of the ntcc.
*despicable me
Vic said...
It's the peoples' money, and they have a right not only to know about it, but to help decide how it is or isn't spent.
Jeff said...
Exactly!!!!! If we are all in it together then we should all make decisions together. We need new song books. Ok how much money is in the escrow account? $5000.
Well there you go, us some of the 5K. But $279,000? What? Are you kidding me? That shouldn't even come up as an issue but we are not all in it together. RWD is the only one who is in it. Church member don't mean jack. The pastor don't mean jack. You call up RWD and it's like asking for a cookie from the cookie jar 2 hours before dinner.
I'm no little kid. I'm not calling RWD for squat. He don't pay my bills. He's not there when my Son is sick. He don't care if my lights get turned off. He doesn't care if I'm stuck on the side of the road and he is not going to help. So guess what. I'm not going to ask him for permission to spend money that is the direct result of my labors or the pastor before me. You can do that Pastor Briggs but I'm not the one and RWD wouldn't do it either and that is why he is in charge and you are not.
Jeff
Vic said...
Just because you're getting fleeced yourself doesn't mean you aren't fleecing the sheep.
Jeff said...
Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding. You just hit the jackpot. Why are you putting that much of your own money in. I understand now. The man puts a bunch of his own money in and he expects every else to do the same and for what? RWD's great expansion plans? $3000 people after 40 years who no one can prove are even saved but I say there is a whole bunch of evidence to suggest otherwise?
Jeff
Ha ha... that's pretty good guys..
Why do you need new song books when you sing the same twenty songs over and over?
Don
"Why do you need new song books when you sing the same twenty songs over and over?"
Now that's an excellent point.
RB said...
“After all of that, $150 a week $600 month doesn't sound too bad..."
• I'm saying not only does that sound bad, it's horrific. I think your diverting the conversation from the huge amounts of money being hoarded for a purpose unknown and without accountability. I say without accountability your "pastor" falls under the category of "False Teachers". I think it's reasonable to say and demand that everyone in a leadership position needs to be accountable; otherwise you can have loose cannon on your hands.Any Christian leaders who resist financial accountability make themselves suspect. Leaders who put too much trust in themselves should not be trusted by others. I’m convinced if you only knew the real story and where all that loot is going to you would not only leave you would run as fast as you could to get out. I’m pleading with you look at the fruit and then judge rightly, then tell me where the love is. John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Don.. please don't be silly, you know the song books were an example.. one that your folks threw out by the way.
But hey, why not answer the question.
What do you think of the character of a man that asks you for hundreds of dollars to buy someone a joint gift only to find that they never even included you as one of the contributor's.
Anyone want to comment?
Oh rb, is that all you come up with! Like some little kid, "mommy, mommy! Matt didn't put my name in the gift receipt."
Please rb, is that all you care about? Yourself, it's always about you. That is why you have stayed so long in the org. because it's all about you.
Please brother Reed, come and apologize to rb, he is having trouble getting pass this great sin you committed, for not including his great name in the list so that rw could see,rb, was "one" of those that gave money for "his" gift. Like mck said: "Bunch of men pleasers"
blovd
RB asked....
What do you think of the character of a man that asks you for hundreds of dollars to buy someone a joint gift only to find that they never even included you as one of the contributor's.
Jeff said...
Maybe he forgot. Kind of like RWD forgot that there was $279,000 dollars in escrow which is why he told Brother Reed to take up an offering for song books? Here is a better question. What do you think of a man who is a millionaire who calls up a pastor talking about how he would sure like a Henry rifle, right before his birthday is coming up?
I'd think a whole lot less of him than I would of the guy who didn't include someone's name as a contributor. But, that is RDUB the swindler con artist for ya.
Jeff
Hey RB,
Do you know how much money is in your church escrow account??
Just wondering....you kind of have a responsibility to your sheep, don't you?
TB
RB,
Who actually owns the building, since your congregation is paying the mortgage? Will thee building be in the name of NTCC and eventually be sold and go back to the pockets of Mike and Tanya? Do you care what happens to the money these kind people have donated to you as a Pastor?
TB
TB.. you really need to read ALL the posts because I've answered that already.. YES I know exactly how much is in the Escrow.
JEFF... Nice waffle... but that's ok I feel ya.. I feel ya.... :-)
RB said, "What do you think of the character of a man that asks you for hundreds of dollars to buy someone a joint gift only to find that they never even included you as one of the contributor's."
Hey, Big Briggs! I just came on and saw all of the posts. Please forgive me for not answering sooner, but I've been extremely busy and don't have much time now. I will respond to some of your other issues as soon as I get a chance.
Let me just say I am chagrined that I ever participated in taking up finances from anybody to buy him an Uncle Henry. I just figured you would want to be a part, and you could have said no. Please forgive me for asking you for your hard-earned money to buy a gift for your pastor.
I don't know who told you that you were not included in the list of contributors, but your name was in the card along with everybody else who gave. Sorry you weren't there for the presentation, but others were not there either. If you remember, there are no weapons allowed on church property, and we had no choice but to put it in his hotel room, gift wrapped, and with a card that had all of the contributors' names included.
After pastor checked in his room and opened the gift, he didn't want the gun kept in his room. I asked him for permission to take the weapon back to the home. He said to keep it in the workers' quarters. Rev. Smart was charged with bringing the gun to the campground at the following conference.
Sorry you carried this for so long. If I had known, I would have cleared the air back then. But I'm glad you still consider me a friend, as you mentioned in a previous post.
In the words of Doc Holiday, does this mean we're crossed?
More another time.
mdr
Briggs said to Chief...
But why change the subject... answer the question about the charicter of a man that would do what I mentioned.
Also acknowledge that an account in reserve for such eventualities is necessary and in the two cases I mentioned makes such times easier then they otherwise would be.
Hey Chief... Make sure you sound off with a loud "YES, SIR MR. BRIGGS," when you answer his demands to you on YOUR blog.
Briggs said...
Also acknowledge that an account in reserve for such eventualities
Kris said...
What in the good green earth is an "EVENTUALITY?" HAHAHAHAHAH
RB:I never saved as much money as I did when I was in servicemen's work - Fact
RB, you were in Germany for a time, right? That's great, you were one of the smart ones. That was BC, before children I know, so that had to be several years ago. Were you anywhere else in servicemen's work?
RB said:
Don.. please don't be silly, you know the song books were an example.. one that your folks threw out by the way.
But hey, why not answer the question.
What do you think of the character of a man that asks you for hundreds of dollars to buy someone a joint gift only to find that they never even included you as one of the contributor's.
Anyone want to comment?
Don and Ange said:
The song books were an example of how offerings were taken up all the time when money given under the pretense that it was going to the "work of the Lord" was actually going into an inaccessible escrow account that is being mismanaged by your chump Lord who has his son in law write a "letter of explanation" (evidently one was needed) that explained how simple the process would be for pastors to use the money set aside for expenses that might arise in the said "work" which was totally disregarded by the chump Lord, all the while ntcc pastors around the world are taking up offerings for everything from song books to church steeples, while sitting on millions in stagnant escrow accounts that will one day be zeroed out so the liars that control them can spend more of your hard earned money and church members offerings on extravagant items that will never get them to heaven.
But Robert, why not answer the question?
Why would there be a need to buy song books when you sing the same twenty songs over and over?
To answer your other question, I think Matthew Reed has impeccable character. I think you are being silly in asking this question. Sometimes even preachers allow the devil to lie to them about their brethren. Is it possible that rwd lied to you about it?
I'll take this whole subject one step further and really illustrate just how crooked the NTCC is. First: Show me in the Bible where it says that you take up an offering of money every time an orator speaks? Show me one example?
Second: I'm not even talking about a special offering here. Why would you even take up any type of offering when there is $279,000 in the church escrow account? Has anyone thought of that? There is no need to even give in any offering when there is that much money available. Most likely, no one in the church has anywhere near that much money saved up so why would church members deplete even more what savings they have by giving in an offering, when there is that kind of money available? If you think about it, that makes no sense to continue to give in a situation like that.
I don't give just so a church can accumulate large sums of money and sit on it. I give because there is a true need for an offering and buddy there ain't no need when there is $279,000 just sitting around! Here is the reality. Many churches just soak people. A church with that kind of money doesn't need an offering. The poor family who is struggling to put food on the table needs an offering.
Am I right people? Think about it. In the New Testament Bible, when you read examples of people giving, the money frequently if not almost always went to help out less fortunate.
Why in the world would you give a church money when they give little or nothing back to the community? So the founder of the church can purchase yet more buildings? What in the world has Christianity turned into? A scheme to keep church organizations loaded with cash when certainly large percentages of it's members live from paycheck to paycheck?
Five church members have less than $2000 in the bank. Another Seven have less than $5000 dollars in the bank. Another Ten have less than $10,000 in the bank. The remaining twenty church members have less than $20,000 in the bank. Just an example here.
So if everyone in the church has no more than $20,000 saved in the bank and the majority have less than $10,000 in the bank, then why in the world would any of them give in an offering when the church has more money just sitting in the bank then all of them combined?
Isn't there something wrong with that whole picture? You best believe there is. The sheep are getting fleeced and it's just that simple. I'm not giving money just so the Kekels can live like Kings and Queens. This is why the church books should be open.
When I see $279,000 at the bottom, you might as well not even send the offering plate down my pew cause I'm not giving a dime. Why? Because there is no need. when I only have $35,000 dollars in the bank, there ain't no way I'm adding to almost $300,000 that, (get this) the pastor has no control of. And frankly I could care less if he did control it in this case. The church doesn't need anymore money but I'll guarantee the people certainly do. Folks I'm just being real. If you were down to your last $1000 and someone came to your house asking for money and in their hand they already had $2000, would you feel very compelled to give them part of your $1000? Not unless you just liked being broke. So why should it be any different with a church? Because some greedy pastor says so? Can you buy your way to heaven? Not the last time I read the Bible?
Jeff
You people who give to the NTCC are being GANKED. Davis owns more property than any of us will ever dream of owning. The NTCC has more resources than any of use will ever have all put together. So please explain to me why they need any more of my money? Because 15 years from now some pioneer church will have 23 member in it? And if all 23 trust RWD all you have is 23 blind being lead by the blind? There you have it. You might as well flush your money right down the toilet. Make sure you wipe with it first and you'll get more use from it than if you give it to the NTCC.
Jeff
Jeff, you just are upset and out of control. You can not change the results and the outcome of being right with God and doing right by the Lord.
People in NTCC have more than you. ONLY those who are not doing, do not have. That is why they do not have. The Lord rewards us for our labor, not you or anyone else.
The results are the results and you can not change them!
Hey, lets see if we can get 300 comments by the time I return, so go to work!
OTP
Briggs said...
But Do not sit there and try to paint Reed as a poor preacher
Kris said...
This reminds me of a movie I saw when I was a kid. I loved the movie. It was about a proud king of the Britains, King Arthur. He was saying to this peasant, something like, "Be quiet! I order you as King of the Britains to BE QUIET!"
Briggs said...
"THERE IS NO DOUBT that many here think the only right answer is for a church to never ask for a dime from people. That there should never be fiscal responsibility. That one person should be able to spend, spend, spend, even if the money they are spending was raised under SOMEONE ELSES tenure.'
What about the RIGHT of the people that have been the ones that raised that 279,000 dollars? They didn't rotate the congregation out to a different congregation every 3 or 4 years? Unless it naturally rotates like in a servicemen's work. This is the whole shuffle the deck trick. The only stable unchanging position is RW Davis. In a servicemen's work, the people change and the pastor changes. No memory is there by anyone at the local church over the years to know how much money has been raised. And for that matter no one has a claim to how it gets spent, coz everyone is rotated. The only one that knows is RW Davis I presume, unless a handful at the top are privy to it. But are THEY entitled to spend it any way they deem fit? Did RW Davis raise that money? It seems he is no more entitled to decide how it is spent than the rotated pastors and congregations.
HOWEVER, in a civilian work, the congregation may have people in it that definitely are more entitled to vote on how the money gets spent in their congregation than any of the rotated pastors or RW Davis. What about their say in their church?
RW Davis wants to be the one calling all the major and minor shots, across the board, even down to where the money will come from for a set of song books.
Well, it is clear from scripture that there were times when the top leaders voted for things and there were times when the congregation voted for things. In times when a decision affected the laity, we can read that the laity had a say in it. See Acts chapter 6 (voting for deacons to handle the distribution of food to the widows); and also Acts 15:22 where it says that it pleased the apostles and elders and "the whole church" to send chosen men with letters to the gentiles.
So, all orders did not come down from one man sitting in his living room of his mansion with a cell phone in the early model of the Christian Church. Yes, Jerusalem decided some MAJOR doctrinal points that generally affected all orthodox churches, but I doubt they had to ask James if they could use their OWN money to buy a song book, Briggs. Give me a break. Read some church history for cryin' out loud. You're in a cult, man! Wake up!
Briggs said...
Your mentality is exactly why the US government is in the position it's in. Tap the funds that are set aside for specific purposes and use them for any purpose. That's wrong.
Kris said...
Now Briggs has the answer to saving the U.S. and getting us out of debt. Let's all vote for Briggs for president. He knows so much from pastoring a church under RW Davis that he should be giving the president economic consultations. You really understand the whole economy of the nation, do you? Wow, you can analyze the economy of our nation and it's relationships with other nations, and you have the answers to our spending problems that the cabinet is not aware of yet? And you have figured all this out while even pastoring a church? That's very impressive.
During the Clinton Presidency there was a 'spin machine' in place as they called it. Briggs is like the spin machine of NTCC. He takes the posts' here and spins them so that the main point is lost. The main point of all that I read here is that Roger Davis is a crooked, lying, swindler.
Why was there $279,000 in the escrow for emergencies and buying property and nothing in the general fund for buying things that you need on a daily basis? Do businesses operate like that? NTCC is a business right? If I have a small business, which I do, and I make garage door springs, which I do, than if I have $279,000 saved up, but then I run out of garage door springs, then I can't do any more jobs without springs, right? So, if I check my account and I have no money for springs in the "springs" budget, then I have to get the money from somewhere, right? Do I ask my customers to give me more money because I don't want to touch my profits? No. I have to admit that I did not do as well as I wish I had, and I have to suck it up and take the money out of my emergency fund.
Briggs, it is clear to me that this so-called, "emergency fund" is RW Davis' profits. HE APPARENTLY DOES NOT WANT YOU SMALL-TIME PASTORS TOUCHING HIS PROFITS.
Briggs, it is my estimation that your so-called "escrow" account should be labeled "Business Profits."
By the way, after reading MD Reed's response to you do you kind of realize now that the pastor that you loved so much did not even take the time to personally thank you for your contribution to his coveted rifle? How does that make you feel about him now? It seems to me now that he didn't care WHO bought him the rifle, Briggs. He just wanted the rifle.
Normal humble Christians take the time to thank people for gifts, even if it means going to 10 different people and thanking them or making a general announcement to thank them. And Briggs, it is customary if someone gives you a gift to give them back a gift. You however apparently did not even receive so much as a "thanks, pal." A thank you card would have also been in order for such a fancy gift as that. If he is an example of a true Christian, should he not lead by example? Do you follow his example if someone gives you a gift, by just not even thanking the person? Answer that question if you can. What do you do, Briggs? The same thing as your pastor? If you do, then you are not much of a Christian. If you don't then what does that say about your pastor since you don't follow his example?
So that's the question, Briggs. What is the proper thing for a pastor to do when he receives an expensive gift from his congregation. First of all, remember that a gift perverts judgment. Proverbs, right? But, assuming that you don't care about the word of God, and you even SOLICIT a gift from an underling, how do you respond after receiving your gun? By telling the people thank you or just taking the gun?
I can't stand to hear about RW's reaction to the gun present. All he could say is he didn't want it there. How sad. He doesn't appreciate the people for the gift. Sorry but this reminds me of Ahab and the field he coveted, and David taking the wife of Uriah when David had many wives and concubines. Then he even killed the man from whom he took his wife. Here Davis takes the gun from Reed and then kills him spiritually by not even thanking him for his sacrifice. This is how the devil treats you, Briggs... not God. God is not like that. Davis is not like God. There's some simple logic for you. Can you understand that? How about 1 plus 1 = 2?
I gotta go to bed
RB,
Your right, I noticed that later, sorry I missed it!
However, you did not answer the second question!
Go on....
TB
ya'll remind me of those old country songs... "somebody done me wrong song".
And say yes'em to your momma too....boy
OPP said...
People in NTCC have more than you. ONLY those who are not doing, do not have. That is why they do not have. The Lord rewards us for our labor, not you or anyone else.
The results are the results and you can not change them!
Hey, lets see if we can get 300 comments by the time I return, so go to work!
Jeff said...
Kekel and RDUB and a handful of yes man have more (material possessions if that is what you are referring to) than me. That is not the case with the rest of them. Running around with in a broke down vehicle with a bad transmission having to get a ride home from conference with someone else isn't exactly what I call "having more than me" As far as the get to work part...
Get a life and kiss my forth point of contact. If you don't know what that means, go to Airborne school and figure it out. Well you may want to skip Airborne and go to girl scouts. No one is going to pay your way or wipe your nose in Airborne school.
Jeff
Jeff, you are not only hilariously funny, but always make your points splendidly. With ntcc's antics, you will never run out of material either.
"Your mentality is exactly why the US government is in the position it's in. Tap the funds that are set aside for specific purposes and use them for any purpose. That's wrong."
Then why don't you go tell RW it was wrong for him to misappropriate the building fund for Fairbanks and use it for something else? And why don't you ask him how come he kept accepting my pledge money for Panama even after that work had long been closed? I had already left the org, and was paying right along (because in my integrity, I had the crazy idea that I should keep my word, even if it meant feeding the monster), when lo and behold my wife ran into the missionary's wife in the grocery store, who told her that they'd closed up shop and come back months and months earlier. I wrote a letter to RW and confronted him about it, and you'll never guess what he told me: "the money is being escrowed until they reopen the work." Well, hopefully someday the "time will be right" for that money to filter into Panama, but I'm not holding my breath.
"Escrow" seems to be the new code name for "slush fund."
"So that's the question, Briggs. What is the proper thing for a pastor to do when he receives an expensive gift from his congregation."
I'd be interested in what you think about this, Robert; apparently your pastor punked you and now you've unwittingly outed him publicly for being the kind of chiseler he is. It looks like Mad Dog's character isn't the one in question here, but your apostle apparently never learned in kindergarten to say "please" and "thank you."
You were suckered, and didn't even get a thanks out of it. Why do you continue to excuse the inexcusable? You think you aren't sucking up, but you're just another one of their lapdogs, taking abuse and still returning loyalty. They have no loyalty to you, and you will soon find that out should they decide to cease accommodating you. They're a little more sensitive about running lucrative tithe payers off nowadays, but you'll relate to our experiences should you ever find yourself in their crosshairs.
Anon said:
"ya'll remind me of those old country songs... "somebody done me wrong song".
And say yes'em to your momma too....boy"
Anon, you remind me of a.....SUCKA!!!
Rev. Briggs,
Hope you don't mind if I change the subject. I have a question for you and it might sound like I'm finding fault but it's really an honest question. Has the way in which Grant Kekel was raised affected the way in which you raise your children? I was wondering if people are still required to keep their children from wearing shorts and attending Gym class.
This brings more questions to mind if you would care to update those of us with inquiring minds. Does the ntcc have a new policy on this? I know that the rate in which children would leave the ntcc was very alarming years ago. Many that have left feel that their childhoods have been destroyed. I know that the ntcc still keeps the appearance of a "holiness standard" but how does a parent raise their children now days without breaking those rules but maintaining a sense of normalcy in the children's lives?
This is one subject that really bugs me because most of the children that were raised in ntcc's version of holiness (which was contrary to the way that Grant was raised) all grew up to be sinners or non-ntcc Christians. Some of the only exceptions I know of to this rule are ones that were married off early.
As Jeff has stated, Ange and I have a heart for the abused. We are very much against child abuse and feel that the way in which the ntcc has endorsed a lifestyle for children which seems impossible and unreasonable, afflicts them emotionally and spiritually for the rest of their lives. We mean this with all sincerity and we point this out to you because we care. We hope that your children do not have to suffer like many in the ntcc have. Perhaps the new ntcc does not require children to be raised the way they were many years ago. It didn't work then and I doubt it will ever work.
Don and Ange
OTP said...
"ONLY those who are not doing, do not have. That is why they do not have. The Lord rewards us for our labor, not you or anyone else.
The results are the results and you can not change them!"
The results are that everytime we begin to save a little bit then we are moved. And don't say it is us who have asked to move, because if we tell the NTCC leadership that we don't think God wants us to go to a particular place then at conference we get preached to saying that we didn't want to go where God wanted us to go or that we love a house or job more than God. The little that we save goes towards our move, and we are broke and in debt again.
The ones that are "blessed" are the select few that are always sent to large churches. While the rest of us barely get by.
The NTCC leadership has tried to make everyone believe the lie that the preachers are spending their money and that is why they do not have anything. (By the way if we are spending all of our money on all this stuff why is it that we don't have any thing???)
I have looked around at those that are almost 50 years old and older and see that they have nothing. And I know for sure that they have "given to the work of the Lord" for decades and they have nothing. As I have done the same thing; giving thousands and thousands of dollars. This was money that came from the "draws" that we get.
In Conference 2009 Rev. Olson said that NTCC does not have a retirement plan; he was letting us know that no help was coming from the organization.
WE DO SPEND ALL OF OUR MONEY
WE SPEND IT ON THE CHURCH
If we do decide to treat ourselves to a cheap computer or used car, are we wrong??? If that is all the money that we will ever have then we are of all Americans most miserable.
There is a lot to say about this subject, but I would have to write a book. So I will sum it up. If NTCC controls the money then they control you; just like the government. If they "decide" to give you something then you feel grateful, not realizing that they are taking from you all the time, and giving you back just enough to survive. So you continue to "vote" for them; believing that they are helping you when they are not.
So says a current NTCC preacher.
Bro. Bellamy
"ONLY those who are not doing, do not have. That is why they do not have. The Lord rewards us for our labor, not you or anyone else.
The results are the results and you can not change them!"
Keep telling yourself that. Do you really think that everyone in NTCC is broke because they were profligate spenders? Bro. Bellamy has laid it out, and I know where he's coming from, because I did it myself for many years. Thank God I escaped that financial black hole while I still had some measure of time to recover. What about those 50+ broke dudes that have had all their money extracted by the NTCC guilt machine? All they have to look forward to in their old age is more criticism that they don't have anything from the same pulpit that induced them to spend what little they did have on the "work of God." "God is the best paymaster," they tell us, as they plunder our wallets and snicker at our naivety. RW sets up a few golden boys and points to them as examples of what God will do for the faithful. The dirty little secret is that you won't get anywhere unless they grease the skids for you, because like most of us, all your money is being sucked up faster than you can earn it by the swindlers that run the org. That's where sincerity will get you in NTCC: old and broke.
Wise words Bro. Bellamy...
To anyone to answer...
Just thinking...did NTCC allow health insurance / life insurance in the past? Do they now? Was it considered a sin to have it? (Like not trusting God to provide your needs.).
I was just thinking what happens if a minister or his wife / child end up with an extended hospital stay for something and their bill ends up being $15,000 or more.
How in the world can they pay for that? Are there specific funds set aside or does it come out of their own pockets?
Rev. Briggs, Rev. Bellamy, Rev. Reed your answers would be very much appreciated. =)
My husband and I don't have health insurance and I've had some ambulance rides and hospital stays / lab work that has totaled almost $3000 all had to be paid out of pocket which is jaw dropping to me, hence the reason I asked what happens when someone in NTCC work gets sick / needs surgery , or what about the ladies who fall pregnant? Is their prenatal / post natal care plus hospital stay paid out of your pockets?
Thanks! Blessed day to all.
Dawn,
Before I answer your question I would like to says HELLO and we will be calling you hopefully soon. Some times there are not enough hours in the day.
But to answer your question, we pay out of pocket. When we were in Germany, my wife needed a test done which was 1 visit and it cost $500. In Germany if we got sick we just used a lot of over the counter medicine until the sickness went away. In the USA we both are veterans so the VA helps a lot.
Also, as far as I know life insurance has never been preached against unless you were on active duty in the military; then there wasn't much use for it. I do have life insurance.
Bro. Bellamy
Bro. Bellamy said:
"The results are that everytime we begin to save a little bit then we are moved. And don't say it is us who have asked to move, because if we tell the NTCC leadership that we don't think God wants us to go to a particular place then at conference we get preached to saying that we didn't want to go where God wanted us to go or that we love a house or job more than God. The little that we save goes towards our move, and we are broke and in debt again."
Don and Ange said:
That is 100% true!!!!
The ones who never move like to sanctimoniously lift themselves up and condemn their brothers and sisters who ARE working hard and ARE putting it together day after day, week after week, year after year!!!
Countless ntcc couples and families are moved from work to work to work, making it IMPOSSIBLE for them to save money.
Meanwhile kekel and other ntcc suck-ups sit in Graham getting fat off the borg teat. They never move, never have to put it together, and get so lifted up in PRIDE. They think they are better than the ones who are sacrificing and making them rich.
Meanwhile people who really love God and want to please Him are trying to keep impossible rules and follow davis' crazy system of 'move them so they stay broke'; because they do want to please God and will 'go anywhere and do anything' for that reason.
davis himself testified that Eric Barden and I were moved because of our SUCCESS. We definitely wanted to go anywhere, do anything FOR THE LORD. And I still do! I believe if Eric were alive today he would feel the same.
But I am tired of these go - nowhere, do - nothing deceivers and/or liars like the anonymous who said if you DO you HAVE. That has nothing to do with it. That is just davis cult jargon.
Anonymous is satanicly blaming good men and women for following orders that came from davis and his wacky system. Anonymous learned that lie from davis and his suck-ups that create a system designed to keep people poor by restricting work hours, requiring two weeks away from work each year, constantly moving people, making stability impossible, and then backstabbing and blaming those people for "never putting it together" or as anonymously proudly and falsely accuses, if they would do they would have.
If you want to do for Jesus and have something, GET OUT OF ntcc.
Being a Christian outside of the church behind the fence is the most liberating thing around.
Being a Christian in the ntcc is like being a dog with a bag of bricks tied around its neck!
Don and Ange
Jeff said,
"for what? RWD's great expansion plans? 3000 people after 40 years"
Ange says,
Yeah, right. WHOOPTIE DOO!
3,000 souls were saved by God the first time Peter preached.
Nobody took up an offering.
They were not in a building.
The only thing that happened was
CHRIST WAS LIFTED UP AND HE DREW THE MEN TO HIMSELF!!!!
In contrast, davis lifts up his phony borg rules and mandates and has built an empire for himself so he and his family could live the good life, taking vacations, flying to Europe to buy crystal, and go on shopping sprees, driving around the states in their company purchased and paid for recreational vehicles, with no one even knowing where they go or what they do. davis has built a real estate empire with guaranteed tenants who dump all their time and money into his corporation, the No Tax Cash Cow.
Ange
Jeff - Here are some abbreviations for your friend OTP
http://www.abbreviations.com/OTP
What he needs to be listening to is OPT - other people's testimony. Briggs might use the general fund for operating expenses, but he is supposed to move money over from the tithe fund (Sunday AM and tithe throughout the week with 10% payments going to Graham each week)to cover what you can't through the general fund. They want the escrow to be for capital expenses and for downpayments to create more favorable equity in their low-ball real estate deals. Weekly payments reduce overall interest, they reap the benefits of that as deductions, and you write the checks to them each week. The tithe fund might be for the minister, but you are told to cover what comes out by it especially if you are still working on a job.
Ange said...
In contrast, davis lifts up his phony borg rules and mandates and has built an empire for himself so he and his family could live the good life, taking vacations, flying to Europe to buy crystal, and go on shopping sprees, driving around the states in their company purchased and paid for recreational vehicles, with no one even knowing where they go or what they do. Davis has built a real estate empire with guaranteed tenants who dump all their time and money into his corporation, the No Tax Cash Cow.
Jeff said...
What more can be said.
Jeff
"http://www.abbreviations.com/OTP"
Hmmm...I'm wavering between Out of Toilet Paper and Opioid Treatment Plan...or maybe he's just On The Prowl. No, it must be Off The Path.
Don.. on your question I don't take it as you finding fault. But we have talked about this I beleive and don't want to rehash the same topics ( I hope you understand).
DAWN - No having insurance has never been taught to be sin. Yes, I can have insurance, no it is not paid for by my organization.
My sister suggested I check this site out... I have been reading over these comments, and I am utterly in disbelief at the number of lives ruined by the NTCC. It honestly, literally, makes me nauseous remembering the way my sister and I grew up, and now seeing the countless other people that experienced the same things we did. For years my sister and I struggled with feelings of inferiority, shame and guilt for the way we were raised, and the fact that we were no longer involved in the organization. (The fear of going to hell if you dared think for youself and entertain the possibility that perhaps the NTCC WASN'T the direct line to God.)
There is nothing more tragic for a child than to feel isolated and shamed by their very life, and that is how my sister and I were raised. It has taken years to overcome those feelings. Some days I still don't feel that I've conquered them.
The people of NTCC are delusional, judgemental and hypocrictical. God says He is the only one to judge - I would like to know how that verse is explained when the ministers in the church do not abide by it.
I am a Christian and I know that I will not be sent to Hell for not choosing to be a part of NTCC. I refuse to believe that God doesn't love me and hasn't saved me just because I don't belong to an organization.
Thanks for this site and for letting me post (vent). ;-)
Thank you, Elizabeth Goodwin. It takes courage to share your story. You have definitely made the right choice by placing your faith in Christ, not in an organization =D
Ange
Elizabeth hit the nail on the head with her comment. The way I see it is if we can warn others about the abuse we experienced from NTCC and possibly spare someone else from going through what we did then it's certainly worth it!!!
Sarah
Dawn wrote, "I was just thinking what happens if a minister or his wife / child end up with an extended hospital stay for something and their bill ends up being $15,000 or more."
Dawn, I'm not a military veteran, so we've always paid out of pocket for those expenses. I had surgery and we made payments for several years to settle that bill. Another time I had some ongoing medical problems that became quite expensive, and we also paid out of pocket.
Matt pastored and worked on secular jobs for 11 of our 23 years in ministry with NTCC, Inc., most recently in Guam, and the two times we had large medical bills, though he was working, we did not have insurance. We did look into getting insurance just for me a couple of times, but at $300+/month, the cost prohibited it. It's a catch-22, that's for sure. :-)
Sarah and Elizabeth, good for you. I remember you from way back and wondered what happened; I thought you went to Minnesota at one point before I lost track.
I hope your parents have awakened to the fact that they were totally hoodwinked. If not, they must be miserable. I inflicted terrible childhoods on my own kids, but finally woke up to the damage it was causing and lightened up. They can never get their childhoods back, but at least they don't hate us for what we did "under the influence." I'm glad you're speaking out.
(By the way if we are spending all of our money on all this stuff why is it that we don't have any thing???)
This is the most profound statement. It pretty much backs up what Jeff and Vic have been saying over and over again but from firsthand current experience. In other words, Nothing's changed. Ya, you can watch DVDs and wear shorts, but you are still being used and you are still paying out of your SUBSTANCE to keep your local churches afloat with little to no help from HQ's while Davis and Kekel pay for things out of their abundance (if they are really paying for anything) and living lavish lifestyles.
Rev. Bellamy said ...
"So you continue to "vote" for them; believing that they are helping you when they are not.
So says a current NTCC preacher."
If that doesn't make it as plain as day, I don't know what will. If Davis grew horns on his head and sported a red pitchfork, I think Briggs would still be defending him. Sad.
I don't understand why I hear over and over again that Briggs is such a stellar character and that he has so much integrity, and on and on and on. What are you talking about, Jeff? I don't remember him saying one thing negative about NTCC. He absolutely defends everything they do, and as far as I can see he never backs down one inch when common sense would dictate that you should agree with the things that you say, Jeff.
You call that integrity? Someone that refuses to acknowledge what is right in front of him? Can you just explain your reasoning for so often giving Briggs accolades and commendations? What has he said that has impressed you so much? To me he just seems like a clone of Kekel.
Kris said,
"If Davis grew horns on his head and sported a red pitchfork, I think Briggs would still be defending him. Sad."
I think RB has a little bit more credibility than that!
Kris,
Just because RB doesn't believe like you do does not mean he lacks integrity. Thats making a serious unjust judgment of the man's character.
ns
Anonymous said...
I think RB has a little bit more credibility than that.
Kris said...
Based on what? That he persistently defends the actions of the rich tycoons in Washington? How has he impressed you so much with so-called credibility, unless you are a gung-ho Davis child too.
Kris,
Just because RB doesn't believe like you do does not mean he lacks integrity. Thats making a serious unjust judgment of the man's character.
ns
What is so serious about it? I take it you are a die-hard NTCC fan, too?
I'm a student here at NTCS, I'm in my second year. I have been reading this blog (as yall should know is discouraged)and have learned much. One thing I want to make clear is this post is my opinion, no one put me up to this, I wanted to write it myself and have the freedom to do so.
I have known about these "safe haven blogs" or should I say “Bash-a-thon’s” since before I have been saved which has been a bit over 3 years now. I got tired of reading them for some time but when I found out that the Reeds left I just had to know why.
MDR- I have read most of your posts explaining why you decided to finally leave the organization. I read about how corrupt the leadership is and how you were taken advantage of. I read about your wife's encounters with some of the leadership. I never knew you personally, I met you in a conference back and I am sorry I never got to know you better you seem like a really good person to know. Like I said earlier I have read a lot on these blogs and have learned a lot about your life and experiences.
The one thing that I gathered from your posts on here is that you are a cop-out and you blame it on God. I'm not going to try to refute every reason you gave for leaving but I don't believe God led you to leave the organization. I don't know what God's will is for your life and the details don't matter to me but I know that God’s spirit didn't draw me to a church and call me to the ministry within an organization that He isn't in and if God's in it then so am I. (I couldn’t have said it better than your little buddy Gregory did “Everything is exactly the way it seems.” He’s right, God’s love and mercy is very much present in NTCC) You left because you were heart-broken? You were heart-broken because of the leadership’s lack of care? You say you’re not bitter or anything of that sort but what are you doing on here? Don’t try to say you are trying to save people from an “Evil Organization or Evil Leadership” there is no righteousness in calling God’s anointed a liar without proof or witnesses. In what I have seen you write, there is no validity in your reasons for leaving; I just don’t’ see it. (maybe one day I'll have the divine revelation huh?)
I learned that you left and had to find out why. I know that there is a life in God outside of the organization, I know that and so does the leadership, I know that a person can leave the organization and afterwards still have a life in God. One thing I don’t understand is how a person claims to be a Godly man and gets on their stupid blog to talk down the leadership of a church by spreading rumors and befriending people who spread these rumors. I really was hoping that I wouldn’t see you posting on here but you are. It’s sad. I hope you realize the folly of your decision one day.(I'm sure your saying the same thing to me)
Btw Don and Ange’s blog makes me SICK!
Thanks for letting me post on your blog Jeff.
Wow Kris...no I'm a Jesus fan thank you! I just think it is unfair in or out of ntcc to attack his character like that. The man comes on here and says how he feels or comes to a conclusion about an issue and you get personal about it. Is there some issue between you and RB that we don't know about? I'm not saying the man is perfect, but at least we get some insight! You would be happier if he never commented at all!
There is fighting, then there is fighting fair. Jeff himself said the man is "cool" even though he disagrees with him. Doesn't mean Jeff sleeps in ntcc undies!
you can be sure with ntcc board member james l. johnson selling insurance that the ntcc board members families are well covered because it's different when it's your own family
Brando,
It really is not worth the time to refute anything you have written. You are a newer ntcc cult member. You sound JUST LIKE we all did when we first got involved with this Organization. We all said,this was Gods annointed. Gods work. God has not led you to this organization. But you will believe what you want to believe. The FOG is THICK and the Blinders are up!
We share the TRUTH. Something your not ready to handle.
April
Brandon Cano said,
"One thing I don’t understand is how a person claims to be a Godly man and gets on their stupid blog to talk down the leadership of a church by spreading rumors and befriending people who spread these rumors."
sounds like he's been reading kekel's blog!
Elizabeth said....
Thanks for this site and for letting me post (vent). ;-)
Jeff said...
Thanks for posting. Of course you are welcome here any time. Your testimony is reminiscent of many I've read. It's quite sad but you'll eventually get past it and God is certainly outside the NTCC. The question is whether God is in the NTCC. I have my doubts. I think RWD ran him off a long time ago.
Jeff
Brandon said...
I know that there is a life in God outside of the organization, I know that and so does the leadership,
Jeff said...
And I know that you are ignorantly blind. So you've been with the NTCC for three years? I know privates in the Army who have more experience than that. You don't know about the NTCC. You weren't there in 1985 when I was in the Ft. Hood serviceman's home or in 1986 in the Ft. Gordon serviceman's home while I was in BNCOC or in 1987 in Germany in another serviceman's home, or at the Atlanta church when I was from 2001 - 2003 or in the Columbus church from 2003 -2008. You don't know squat about the NTCC's history. You are wet behind the ears.
The organization doesn't believe that there is life in God outside the NTCC so don't let them fool you. They liken leaving the NTCC to leaving God. I've heard NTCC pastors and Graham leaders say, "I'm sure there are other people serving God outside the NTCC, I just haven't met any".
Buddy, you are blind as a bat. Matthew Reed has forgotten more about serving God than you'll learn in the next 20 years. You ain't even qualified to critique him. Have you ever stayed in the lodge with RWD? He knows more about RWD than you'll ever learn. RWD will die before you'll ever have a chance to know him 1/100 as much as M. Reed does. You don't know anything. I'm not even going to refute your ignorant statements because your writing came from complete blindness. You are like a pee-wee leaguer trying to tell someone in MLB how to play baseball. I don't believe that God called you to the NTCC. You are just brainwashed and you don't know the meaning of sacrifice and it's unlikely that you'll ever know as much as Matt Reed has forgotten. How many churches have you pastored? How many times have you been oversees? Any you think you are qualified to critique M. Reed? Go back to the NTCS and keep working on your fake degree and follow a few of the stupid rules and while you are at it if you are lucky, maybe Mike Kekel will let you mow his lawn or take out his trash.
You are brainwashed Kid. I was probably going to conferences when you were in diapers. Actually you probably weren't even born yet. I was a Sergeant in the Army when you were sucking on your mommy's nipple. If I'm wrong about your age then you are more ignorant than I thought. Go shine RWD's shoes.
I'm supposed to listen to this guy? I'd be better off going to my wifes school and have a first grader tell me about life. I have little patience for that mess.
Jeff
I know RB doesn't want to rehash the same topics, but we're all waiting to hear his responses to several questions.
What do you say to MDR now that he explained the gift giving to RWD?
You impugned his character, and it seems a man of integrity such as yourself would make things right before all.
And another, how have all the changes in ntcc policies affected the raising of your children? That's a legitimate question. Are you doing anything differently, such as allowing them to wear gym shorts, which is now allowed according to the new ntcc mandates?
What servicemen's homes did you pastor where you saved so much money as you boasted? And, btw, how many times have you moved in your time with ntcc?
What is the proper thing to do when you receive an expensive gift from a member or members? Thanks.
Jeff said,
"I'm supposed to listen to this guy? I'd be better off going to my wifes school and have a first grader tell me about life."
LARCH SAYS, ................................AMEN!!!
Jeff said,
"Go shine RWD's shoes."
Scooter says,
IT WOULD BE A BLESSING.
Jeff said,
"You are wet behind the ears."
Hunter says,
Ooohh. Is that like a wet-willy? I love dem tings.
HO
Hunter said,
"Is that like a wet-willy?"
Zeek says,
Hunter! You are shameless!!
Jeff said,
"Matthew Reed has forgotten more about serving God than you'll learn in the next 20 years."
typo!?
Anonymous said to RB,
"You impugned his character, and it seems a man of integrity such as yourself would make things right before all."
LURCH SAYS,
..................................PREACH!
Brandon Cano said:
"Btw Don and Ange’s blog makes me SICK!"
Don and Ange said,
You know what? It should make you sick because it is full of true accounts and details about the cult you attend and it's leaders who you give your money to. If I were in the ntcc and I read our blog it would make me sick too. That's what we want it to do is make them sick that they are in an organization that has endorsed and condoned the destruction of families for almost five decades now.
What is it about our blog exactly that sickens you? You want to talk about bashathons? The next time kekel and davis start spewing out hatred from behind the pulpit directed towards your brethren, we implore you to grow a set and grill them with the same ignorant statements that you accuse us with.
We can see from your post that their brainwashing techniques are still working as good as they ever have. Does your master know that you are blogging? Serious question, wonder if you will answer it honestly.
Seriously, we are glad that you visited. We are honored to have a bs student present to represent the new testament christian cult indoctrination school in Graham, Wa.
The thing about it is that you now have an advantage over many of your peers. Most of what you have read in this blog and even on our Xer blog will be in your heart and mind for years to come. Even though you might not believe it now, questionable actions will take place in the future before your eyes and you unlike most of your buddies will have confirmation. Most people don't get to see this side of the ntcc because they are not allowed to. What you are doing now would have gotten you kicked out of bible school years ago. I guess God does change His mind and His standards after all. You must be so spiritually ahead of all bs students that you are able to keep your salvation while rebuking us.
We don't hate you because we were once just like you. We know that according to statistics there is a 90% chance you will be gone in 5 years and a 95% chance you will be gone in 10 years and a 99% chance you will be gone in 20 years. Do the math. Your group is so elite that after almost five decades there are only about 3,000 souls that are hanging on for dear life in the ntcc. Most of them are all pretty new. Even the Jehovah's witnesses have 144,000. Do you mean that God's last move on earth can only keep less than 1/10th of 1% of the people they have reached over a 40 year span?
This is a very liberal estimate when you consider all of the tens of thousands who have been invited to church and have attended. The ntcc is in the business of using people up what they are worth and then throwing them in the trash-heaps when they are done with them. Stick around a little longer and you will learn the lessons we all have.
Don and Ange
All these things written here are really wrong.
Donald you know where you were first exposed to homo activity.... and it was not NTCC.
They do not wear shorts. Just because they use them in the gym does not mean everybody is doing it. Like your wife is black, so all white men are marrying black women..... yes? See how dumb that is!
From the number of those writing.... we may get 300 before OTP returns.....
Jeff said to Brandon the bible school boy ...
"I'm supposed to listen to this guy? I'd be better off going to my wifes school and have a first grader tell me about life. I have little patience for that mess."
Kris said...
That was too good, Jeff. But it would have been even better if you ended with, "GET OFF MY BLOG. DON'T POST ON MY BLOG ANYMORE!" just like Michael Savage.
Anonymous said this about Briggs...
"...a man of integrity..."
How is a man that is blind to the TRUTH a "man of integrity?"
Oh, okay... I understand now. I looked up the dictionary definition of 'integrity.' It actually has nothing to do with truth, but has to do with someone sticking to principles. I suppose that this definition could even apply to the devil himself. You could say the devil is a devil of integrity. He definitely sticks to principles, though they are not good. Briggs is a man of integrity. That's for sure. It's just too bad he is sticking to the principles laid out by RW Davis, AND NOT THE BIBLE!
RB! We are still waiting for your response. You're awful quiet out there. what's wrong, cat got your tongue, or are you just sleeping in your NTCC undies?
If I have offended anyone or if I have written anything wrong to anyone, I'm sorry.
Anonymous said...
"Like your wife is black, so all white men are marrying black women..... yes? See how dumb that is!"
Did I miss something? What does the race of someone's spouse have to do with anything?
It seems like Anon has a problem with interracial marriage or maybe they are trying to change the subject.
I do remember when interracial marriage (someone black marrying another race) was strongly discouraged; at least by the pastor of the servicemen's home I attended.
Bro. Bellamy
Anonymous said:
"All these things written here are really wrong."
Don said:
State your case Anonymous poster. What's wrong? The truth?
If the statistics that were posted got you mad, I will say this. Those were educated guesses based on mathematical probability and were very liberal.
If you look at what percentage of people that are still around from 1970 it's probably closer to 1/100th of a percent. The point being that the ntcc is such an elite group that you have a better chance winning the lottery than you do making it into heaven with the ntcc.
As for the personal attacks, there is nothing that we have lied about and we have not misrepresented the facts in any way. When you open your mouth about things you do not know you bring to the surface the true nature of the organization, and I can assure you that nothing good will come out of it for the ntcc. The corrupt dealings and abusive situations that were created by the leaders of the ntcc stink to high heaven.
You can't help yourself can you? Your true colors come out when using a simple analogy. The white man with a black wife? I do see severe ignorance on your part for writing this. Do you really think that is appropriate? This is precisely why the ntcc is a struggling and failing organization. Financially the ntcc is a powerhouse and may never fall because there will always be suckers that will join a cult, and there always will be folks like you anon that spew out your venom towards any and all that oppose you. But the highway you are travelling on is littered with carnage from the countless souls you have cast away.
All these things written here are wrong? Tell us, exactly what is bothering you. Is it what we write or what you are a part of?
Don and Ange
You missed it Bro. B.
They said wearing shorts was ok, like everyone was doing it.
It was in sports in gym. Everyone is not wearing shorts.
So I used that b/w deal to make a point.... no harm intended, in fact to you or anyone else. I was just making a point that I knew would make MY point, and it did.
PLEASE forgive me if I offended anyone else. I myself am not married to a white.
Come on 300...
Kristofer,
I know you don't want to intentionally hurt folks and neither do I. The truth does hurt and it also offends. Don't kill yourself over it. When we warn folks about the realities we have experienced and witnessed, it's a good thing. You bring out some very good points and your writings ring true and confirm much of what is said in here.
Don and Ange
D&A said,
"You bring out some very good points and your writings ring true and confirm much of what is said in here."
Just stick to the points then! Sans emotionalism!
Anonymous said:
"So I used that b/w deal to make a point.... no harm intended, in fact to you or anyone else. I was just making a point that I knew would make MY point, and it did.
PLEASE forgive me if I offended anyone else. I myself am not married to a white."
Don said:
Not being married to "a white" has never been a problem in the ntcc. The problem has always been interracial between black and white couples. You know good and well what you said and what you meant, anonymous. You can't help yourself. Rwd always preached against white and black marriages and there was never anything wrong with Deborah Rodriguez marring Rick Blumenthal or Ashmore marrying an Hispanic. Even folks of oriental heritage are allowed and encouraged to marry outside of there ethnicity but never has a black man or woman been encouraged to get married to the opposite in the ntcc. So don't back pedal on your statement using the argument that you are not married to a "white" to justify your comment. If you were such a great Christian example you wouldn't stick your foot inside your mouth every time you opened it.
This is precisely why we expose the ntcc for what they are. You make the same kind of statements from behind the pulpit and you ruin peoples lives so you can hear a few "Amens" and "Preach"!!! You are never really sorry although you might throw out a blanket apology. You still say you made a good point, so you really aren't sorry. Enough of the phoniness.
Don and Ange
"You could say the devil is a devil of integrity. He definitely sticks to principles."
It really doesn't make sense because the opposite of integrity is immorality and wickedness.
Anon, I understood what you were saying about shorts...
You were using the wearing of shorts as something negative so it is natural for someone to think that you were using interracial marriage as something negative, because you compared the two.
Especially when all of us old timers know what the policy use to be.
That is one of the things that many of the newbees to NTCC does not understand; not saying that you are a newbee the earlier poster was. We know what the policies use to be. (If he only knew half of what Rev. Reed has done for God.)
Some may ask why am I still a part of NTCC when I know what is going on? Part of the reason that many of the rules have changed is because of blogs like this. If more people within NTCC stood up and acknowledged that these things occur then even more things would change. Because many of the preachers in NTCC are good men and they see what is taking place. I had another preacher in NTCC call me and tell me that he agreed with what I was writing on this blog.
I am not some spy. I have not hid my identity and may even be disfellowshipped, but the fact remains that much of what is written on these blogs are true.
Bro. Bellamy
Anonymous said:
"PLEASE forgive me if I offended anyone else. I myself am not married to a white."
Don said:
Why would you care about offending anyone on this blog? You said all things written here are really wrong. The only wrong thing that I've seen written here is what you wrote. If we are all so wrong why would you have to come in here to straighten us out? Don't bother apologizing. We've heard that from your leader too many times. "If I've offended anyone please forgive me".
Rwd should be on the phone to Matt Reed saying, I'm sorry brother, for influencing you to take up a huge offering for a worthless rifle that I can add to my absorbently expensive collection when I'm a multi-millionaire and the others you are tapping for money are struggling to get by. Or how about I'm sorry for saying "let that man die" about the one person on earth that you and Debbie loved the most, as a son that you were never allowed to have in an organization filled with vasectomy policies and endless rebukes for having children. What's right about that?
Don and Ange
Bro. B is the one I was mainly addressing. If the shoe fits for others, that is fine too. Bro. B and I go wayyyyyyyyy back.
RB said:
"Don.. on your question I don't take it as you finding fault. But we have talked about this I beleive and don't want to rehash the same topics ( I hope you understand)."
Don said:
I am glad you didn't take it as finding fault, because it really wasn't. Shortly after I asked the question there were visitor's that confirmed much of what I said. I was really and sincerely wanting to know if the ntcc has changed their policy on how they raise children and I wanted to hear it from you, because you are a family man and you are not afraid to say what you believe. My point being: Do you find it damaging to raise your children the same way that children were raised in the 70's, 80's and 90's in the ntcc with the exception of GK? Perhaps you or others no longer put those heavy burdens on a child that is being influenced, shaped and molded into an adult.
My opinion is that we don't see the same emphasis on these issue's in the bible. I personally believe that the emphasis should be on Christ. What would Jesus do? I can't find examples of Jesus teaching holiness to young children or adults for that matter. I'm not saying that it's not in the bible or that it's wrong. I just question the wisdom of requiring a young child to live such an abnormal childhood. Seems like it's done more damage in the past than it has done good. When one is forced to live a certain way as an impressionable child, it seems like more often than not they rebel against it when they become adults.
Don and Ange
P.S.
If you still don't want to address this issue, I understand.
Don and Ange
ANON ASKED
What do you say to MDR now that he explained the gift giving to RWD?
You impugned his character, and it seems a man of integrity such as yourself would make things right before all.
RB
I have two people to believe, him and my source. Both disagree. I can only believe one. I don't believe him.
ANON QUESTION
And another, how have all the changes in ntcc policies affected the raising of your children? That's a legitimate question. Are you doing anything differently, such as allowing them to wear gym shorts, which is now allowed according to the new ntcc mandates?
RB ANSWER
First of all unlike the majority of people, I did not have my first child until I was in my 30's. That fact alone was the greatest influence on my child raising. It gave me time to mature in both my personal and spiritual life. Had I been a father going into NTCC or shortly thereafter I am sure I would have done things I would have regretted. But I had time to grow and learn before I started involving another life.
Second, as anyone one that was in the Army and NTCC knows you still ran PT in shorts - so get over it. If a GI could wear shorts for a company run I think kids in a segregated gym class could wear shorts and not be wrong.
QUESTION
What servicemen's homes did you pastor where you saved so much money as you boasted? And, btw, how many times have you moved in your time with ntcc?
RB ANSWER
Servicemen's directors are asked before they ever go into those works how much debt they have. They are not allowed in with major debt problems. That is unless they Lie about it. I pastored in Vilseck Germany. I have pastored San Antonio, Sacramento, Vilseck, Chattanooga, Houston, and was an Associate when Denver was first started again in the 90's. I have moved a total of 10 times (from state to state/country to country) and many more instate/city moves.
ANON Asked
What is the proper thing to do when you receive an expensive gift from a member or members? Thanks.
RB ANSWERED
You say thank you. Which I am quite sure is what Pastor Davis did to Reed. He can not say thank you to people who he does not know where involved though. You see, Reed says he "had to do it" the way he did because Gun's were not allowed on the camp. What he fails to point out is that the Gun was purchased to be put in the Lodge which, incidentally is ON THE CAMP. Me thinks the man speaks with a forked tongue.
Don Asked in Part
Do you find it damaging to raise your children the same way that children were raised in the 70's, 80's and 90's in the ntcc with the exception of GK? Perhaps you or others no longer put those heavy burdens on a child that is being influenced, shaped and molded into an adult.
RB Answered
Don, I think the way most children in the country are raised in a hurtful way. Yes, a lot of the parents that I saw during the 80's were borderline abusive. I do not fault my organization for that. In fact, my first pastor was without a doubt abusive to his children. And to be honest he had me on the border of leaving way back when. It wasn't until I went to school and heard Pastor Davis teaching on child raising, wives, etc that I realized much of what I had seen and found "scary" was not endorsed at all.
Most people are far to "afraid" of what "others" will think of them. They do things that are not true to themselves just to make what they believe is a good impression. Children are not to be looked at as property but as people. They are little men and women in the making and should be treated as such. Too many made their kids feel as if they had no part in anything, no point to make, no say so in anyway. That is sad, but it is universal and NOT simply NTCC. For the ones that depart I can show you others that have stayed.
Do I have concerns for my kids? Sure I do. So I teach them as best I can and pray for them constantly.
Some shifts in Standards (NOT POLICIES) have been a blessing for sure, but where the lives of my kids are concerned I am not going to let anyone else make MY decisions for me.
Anonymous said:
""You could say the devil is a devil of integrity. He definitely sticks to principles."
It really doesn't make sense because the opposite of integrity is immorality and wickedness.
Don and Ange said:
I have to say in your infinite wisdom you really prove our point well. We would love for you to break this down for us a little more. Can you apply this wisdom to people in your own back yard or does it just apply to us. Do you really want to talk about integrity, immorality and wickedness?
Do you care to comment specifically on any examples of your leaders integrity on this blog? We have commented on many examples of the opposite of integrity that we have witnessed in the ntcc leadership. Does this make us devils? If I say rwd is a crook and I can show you the truth about how he has deceived and lied to people to build a financial empire does that mean that I have no integrity? Or does that mean my integrity is the same as the devils integrity? Your cult lingo doesn't back up your ingrained beliefs.
There is never any substance to many of the arguments on your side. There is usually just attacks and that's it. We have thousands of examples backed up by facts and quotes from "leaders" in the ntcc, and so much of what we say is irrefutable. So we are cast in the same light that the Pharisees and hypocrites of the day used to justify the crucifixion of Jesus. "This man said he can destroy the temple and build it again in three days". Was there nothing else they could accuse Him of?
Don and Ange
Anon,
Send me an email at ebb702@yahoo.com. I would love to have an intelligent conversation with you. I miss my old friends. 90% of them are no longer a part of NTCC. I am not some bitter person. We can agree to disagree and still be friends. There are some people that are very upset with what they have experienced and rightfully so. I do try to temper my words, because I was raised to respect all preachers regardless if I believe that they are wrong or not.
It is not wrong or disrespectful to point out abuses or to refute false statements made about you. I have been with NTCC for 20 years and to be honest I don't want to just throw that away, but I have decided to live my life the way that I believe God wants me to. And making certain comments here may give others the courage to step up. In the past we have been taught that any "breaking" of the rules were rebellion to God, but now those same rules are being changed. It was said that some of the rules were never rules and that is a completely false statement. I even asked a board member about this and he said that the rule that Rev. Kekel said was not a rule was a rule. So now this makes many of us question the motives of our NTCC leaders. I was asked by the board member not to use his name; I didn't promise that I wouldn't, but I don't think that I will unless someone from NTCC says that I am lying. And they have to leave their name; don't try to set me up by using Anon.
I really just try to deal with the things that I know are facts. I cannot comment on what others have said unless I have experienced it for myself.
Anon I wasn't offended; it just seem like your comparison came out of no where. If you know me from wayyyyyy back then you know what the policy for black people marrying someone from another race was.
You also know me to be very level headed and I don't do much without thinking about what I am doing.
Hopefully you will contact me.
Bro. Bellamy
Edward said, "I do remember when interracial marriage (someone black marrying another race) was strongly discouraged; at least by the pastor of the servicemen's home I attended."
And correct me if I'm wrong there was a time when interracial couples were not allowed to attend the Bible school in Graham either.
Anon, if that was the case then it was before my time or it never came up. I started with NTCC in November 1991 at Killeen TX (Ft. Hood)
Bro. Bellamy
Anon said
"It really doesn't make sense because the opposite of integrity is immorality and wickedness."
I think what was trying to be said was that the devil(e.g. satan) does not have integrity.
Don and Ange
"Your cult lingo doesn't back up" your ingrained beliefs.
cult lingo in said statement would be...?
RB Said:
"Second, as anyone one that was in the Army and NTCC knows you still ran PT in shorts - so get over it. If a GI could wear shorts for a company run I think kids in a segregated gym class could wear shorts and not be wrong."
Don said:
I must say that this statement is not true. I was given letters from most of the pastor's that I had that stated our "religious beliefs" with verses of scripture. You see, the ntcc that I was a part of preached that these things were a sin, and I believed literally everything they taught me. I hung on every word. From the time it was taught until the day I left the ntcc, I never wore shorts, but I wore sweats which by the way were probably just as lascivious as shorts.
My point is that myself and others did not make this stuff up. We followed the rules in fear. People made their kids do things that today they would not have to. Are the changes good? I have to say that the changes were made for money. The changes came about because of the information age. People were learning that Grant Kekel was wearing shorts and they decided if the kekel kid didn't have to wear shorts in school, why should their kid's have to look like a dork, wearing wingtips and polyester slacks and church clothes to school? Mike kekel said himself, "You knew it was wrong to [wear shorts], the first time you put them on"
RB said:
"Some shifts in Standards (NOT POLICIES) have been a blessing for sure, but where the lives of my kids are concerned I am not going to let anyone else make MY decisions for me."
Don said:
This is unacceptable RB. If policies change then I would say that man changed them to suit their needs. But when standards change, we are saying that God has changed. From the same book that we use to put people in hell for not paying tithe we also find a scripture that says, "I am the Lord, I change not". If God changes standards like you said, than how are we to know what is right and wrong. I think where the ntcc goes wrong is that they paint themselves into a corner and when they find that there is a more equitable way to do things they created different standards and they call them policies. A Policy is just another way to have control over peoples lives. By the way they never started out as policies but they were rules.
Don and Ange
P.S. Thanks for answering.
Don, I too got a letter from my pastor. But I AKSED For it. It was not forced on me. And most of the brothers in Tillicum in 86 were wearing shorts and that is fact. I too took things on a Relivious level and reasoned that if it's wrong it's wrong so I asked for a letter of support. But I did my own fighting with the Army.
Anon said:
"cult lingo in said statement would be...?"
Don said:
This is what was said:
"You could say the devil is a devil of integrity. He definitely sticks to principles."
It really doesn't make sense because the opposite of integrity is immorality and wickedness."
Maybe you or the anonymous poster can explain what he or she was referring to or comparing the first statement to. The devil has integrity? Last I heard, he is a liar and the father of it. Yes the devil sticks to his principles but if those principles are wicked and immoral is it still integrity?
I guess when these actions are duplicated by leaders of the ntcc, it's considered integrity. Cult jargon or lingo that we refer to when people use sayings that are directed at those that do not follow their same cult teachings to put them down and justify their own deeds. They also use cult jargon to convince folks to justify rules; for example:
"If Jesus were to die in a wheel chair, would they wear a wheel chair around their neck"?
This was a statement I heard many times used against folks that wore necklaces with a cross on them. First of all there is not one scripture in the New Testament that condemns people for wearing a necklace. Secondly, they are being put down for wearing a Cross which is a symbol to many of what Christ went through for our sins.
This is cult jargon 101, did you learn anything?
Don and Ange
RB, Why would we ask for a letter? Would we just do that out of the blue because we wanted to look like dorks as many people's children were expected to look like in Gym class?
It is either a sin or it isn't. I thought it was a sin and was encouraged by many of my pastor's to present a letter and not wear shorts. When you think that you are going to die and go to hell for something than you do those kinds of things. They are and were nothing more than control tactics and had nothing to do with being a Christian. This is what is wrong with the ntcc.
Don and Ange
Don and Ange,
"You could say the devil is a devil of integrity. He definitely sticks to principles."
This is an ntcc colloquialism? I wasn't aware.
You would have to ask Kris what the said statement meant since he is the one who wrote it originally.
the devil(e.g. satan) can't have integrity, it doesn't make sense since the opposite of integrity(according to webster's) is wickedness and immorality.
That's all that was said. Nothing subliminal written here.
"And correct me if I'm wrong there was a time when interracial couples were not allowed to attend the Bible school in Graham either."
Not sure if that's true, although it probably is, but I can tell you that it was definitely true back in St. Louis. We were taught that marrying outside our race (well, specifically white and black unions) would destroy our ministries and therefore disqualify us from BS. I am ashamed to admit that I counseled a couple against it myself, based on this racist rationale (although they didn't listen; love is stronger than some idiotic pastoral advice). And those who weren't around back then also missed all the great "nigger" jokes RW used to tell over the pulpit. Yes, "nigger" was a frequent word in the NTCC vocabulary, and came regularly over the pulpit out of the mouth of the vaunted "apostle." Like other practices, it only ended when they figured out it was costing them money.
DON SAID
People made their kids do things that today they would not have to. Are the changes good? I have to say that the changes were made for money. The changes came about because of the information age.
RB Answers
Don you hit the nail on the head People made their kids do things. People NOT the organization. As a young man I was in the boy scouts and one of the first things you learn is "Seek responsibility, and take responsibility for your actions" that's my problem with most here. You were always in control of your own life and decisions. If you want to admit you were weak and did things you didn't want to do so be it. If you want to say you couldn't think back then fine. But no one put a gun to your head. I grew up with sinner parents and I (though loving them) despise what they put me through. That's the nature of the beast. Who do they have to blame? NTCC? No, themselves. And so do all of us. If we fail our children inside of a church group or outside of a church group WE FAILED THEM own up to it and stop searching for someone to point at.
DON SAID
If policies change then I would say that man changed them to suit their needs. But when standards change, we are saying that God has changed. From the same book that we use to put people in hell for not paying tithe we also find a scripture that says, "I am the Lord, I change not". If God changes standards like you said, than how are we to know what is right and wrong.
RB ANSWERS
Don first let’s agree on some basic definitions for words.
A Policy is an ADOPTED set of rules, or regulations such as a Company Policy. It is almost always written down.
A Standard is defined as "used or accepted as normal"
and one more that we have not discussed
A Mandate - which is an official order or comission to do something.
You guys interchange these words at an alarming rate. At times I think it's out of ignorance. Other times I think it's by design.
There are very few actual POLICIES in NTCC. We have our Bylaws, and we have Servicemen's SOP. Nothing else is in the form of an official statement or stance on any issue. There are times when certain standards are mandated as in the case of Television and Licensed ministers. They are required or mandated for credentialing. While it would be fair to say that much of what is a standard is also mandated. At no time would I be willing to concede that standards held by our organization correlate with God Ordained Mandates. They are manmade. But never-the-less just as important for group cohesion as any other man made mandate: IE dress codes for employment, required uniforms for officers of the law, continuing education for doctor’s etc. They are part of being involved with a group.
To continue to tell people that these things were “Policy” is to foster the erroneous impression in the minds of the unlearned that there was an official statement that came down from HQ telling Pastor’s to instruct their people that they were not to wear shorts, play sports, watch TV, etc. There was not. There was a standard that was adhered to by most and taught to people but that was all it was. A standard. Some preachers took it to a sinful degree by condemning people to hell over something that was and is a personal conviction. I teach a standard, people accept or reject it based on their own internal compass. My main objective is to get people to “know” what they believe and why the believe it. It teach what I know, AND what I believe, but I differentiate between the two. What I know is clearly found in scripture, what I believe is my personal standard. If they come to a place where they have their own knowledge and reasoning for why they do what they do I accept it and respect it. But I DO NOT accept the statement “WELL PASTOR SO and SO said” What do you say? That’s what is important. Pastor SO and So is not standing before God for you. Only for himself and what he taught you. You are answering for your own decisions be they right or wrong.
"Can somebuddy splain dat to me?
Dat don't sound like God to me. Looka how dis makes me feel!"
The racial climate is not getting any better here!
"But no one put a gun to your head."
No--they used something far more effective than that: they put the fear of eternity in hell on us.
"I have two people to believe, him and my source. Both disagree. I can only believe one. I don't believe him."
That's your problem--you refuse to believe any report, no matter how well documented, which casts your beloved idol in a negative light. A thousand people could swear under oath regarding a matter, but if RW suggests otherwise, you bow down and believe him above all others. That's why you can't disentangle yourself from the org; they own you. Just because you come on here and sign your name doesn't mean you aren't sucking up. You're just doing it publicly. You're still just a puppet on a string, no matter what you tell yourself.
RB said : I have two people to believe, him and my source. Both disagree. I can only believe one. I don't believe him."
Vic said: That's your problem--you refuse to believe any report, no matter how well documented, which casts your beloved idol in a negative light.
Most are unable to accept any wrongdoing by leadership while in ntcc. This is a cornerstone of the control within this group.
True, nobody "made us" do anything, but the teachings and psychological manipulation kept us whipped into shape to not accept any evil report about any leader. It's all part of the structure of ntcc. This goes much further than respecting, honoring or submitting yourself to those that have the rule over you, as the Bible teaches.
Why is it so hard for people to admit there is even a possibility they are wrong about something? It seems to be based pride. Just my 2c.
I just thought about this, but there is no middle class in NTCC. You either have plenty or don't have nothing at all!
"I just thought about this, but there is no middle class in NTCC. You either have plenty or don't have nothing at all!"
And the vast majority are in the "don't have nothing at all" class.
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