For those of you who don't know, some years back the New Testament Christian Church Incorporated gifted 39 acres of land to Mike and Tanya Kekel, which as of 2008 was valued at $373,000. If you are interested in the seeing a copy of the warranty deed, it can be found by clicking here.
Last night I talked to a gentleman from Graham who told me that RWD held a meeting some years back with ministers and seminary students. At the meeting RWD addressed the land deal and he told the people in the audience that he could spend his money however he wanted to include giving his daughter and son-in-law 39 acres of land. Strangely, RWD closed the meeting by telling everyone that they would die and go to hell if they didn't pay their tithe! Boy old RWCross is one seriously warped, rich individual. Being both rich and warped is a bad combination. Anyway, the gentleman who I talked to, felt that the New Testament Christian Church lost a lot of people because of the land deal. That is good news for those of us who were involved in posting that information. I know of 4 people for certain who left the NTCC because of the land deal and I'm sure there were a lot more.
The real ethical problem surrounding the land deal was that the land (prior to being gifted to the Kekels) was New Testament Christian Church property. Notice I said "gifted" because that is how it was phrased on the warranty deed, (that it was given as a gift). Since when do CHURCHES give property gifts valued at over $300,000 to the founders daughter and son-in-law? It's my understanding that the Kekel's have since given it back to the New Testament Christian Church, but I don't know that for certain and even if they did, that would put it right back in Davis' hands to do whatever he wanted with it just like he proved he could do in the past. Whether or not they gave it back really doesn't matter because the whole ordeal was crooked in the first place and it's proof to how RWD and the New Testament Christian Church operates.
So what is the moral of the story? Unless you want to go to hell, you better pay your tithe so the New Testament Christian Church can give it away to the likes of Mike and Tanya. That way, they'll have plenty of money to put their son through a real college (which happens to be catholic) and I don't care if he has a scholarship. So does my daughter and it still costs us plenty of money and my daughter isn't even driving a car in college like I suspect Grant is even though I could be wrong. Automobile insurance for someone under 25 is REAL expensive. So when you pay your tithe, just know you are helping out Grant a lot. Just learn to forget about your own children because in the grand scheme of things in the NTCC, your children don't matter; only Grant does. If you think otherwise you're an idiot.
So what is the moral of the story? Unless you want to go to hell, you better pay your tithe so the New Testament Christian Church can give it away to the likes of Mike and Tanya. That way, they'll have plenty of money to put their son through a real college (which happens to be catholic) and I don't care if he has a scholarship. So does my daughter and it still costs us plenty of money and my daughter isn't even driving a car in college like I suspect Grant is even though I could be wrong. Automobile insurance for someone under 25 is REAL expensive. So when you pay your tithe, just know you are helping out Grant a lot. Just learn to forget about your own children because in the grand scheme of things in the NTCC, your children don't matter; only Grant does. If you think otherwise you're an idiot.
If you are in the New Testament Christian Church, you are really getting taken to the cleaners, used and played like a sucker. R.W. Davis, Olson, Kekel and all the rest of them can take a long walk off a short pier. They would do more for humanity to be fed to the sharks. That way, the sharks might not be so hungry so as to attack innocent swimmers. RWD, Kekel and Olson are all sharks so that fate would be fitting.
Chief
245 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 245 of 245"contact Mike "just do it" Kekel for spiritual help. He explained his situation and asked for help, only to be encouraged to follow through with self termination."
I was talking to my friend from High School and he was talking to me about suicide, jumping off a bridge. I was trying to encourage him not too. So, at church that evening I was hoping to get some spiritual insight or some encouraging words to share with my friend and when I told him he was thinking about jumping off a bridge, my loving and godly pastor who was filled with the blessed Holy Spirit said, "did you tell him to jump?"
I was really surprised he said that.
This kind of behavior is taught from the ntcc leadership.
"...my loving and godly pastor who was filled with the blessed Holy Spirit said, "did you tell him to jump?""
Just to clarify--this was an NTCC pastor, no? A name might help someone avoid potentially fatal advice. Don't be shy; they aren't when the time comes to rebukes from pulpit.
A minister comes to his pastor or overseer with major financial problems.
Ordinary Pastor from a normal church says: Let's look at some scripture and pray about this and see what we can do to help you.
Ntcc pastor says: You are the sum total of all the poor decisions you made. You'll never have anything or amount to anything. Then the ntcc pastor humiliates him in conference by calling out his name and talking about him like a dog.
The guys wife no longer believes in him and he is having a hard time believing in himself. His wife
leaves him so he goes to his pastor for more advise.
Ordinary Pastor from a normal church: We appreciate every thing you've done and we are going to do everything we can to get you some help. We love you and don't want to see you hurt or broken.
Ntcc hireling says: you brought this mess on yourself because you wouldn't listen to us. You're just going to do whatever you want to do anyway. You need to pray and do the will of God, and they rake you over the coals in front of all your friends at conference again.
Now the pressure is building and it seems like there is no way out. You've tried everything you can think of, all you're so called brothers and sisters in the ntcc are afraid to be seen with you and your life has become a compete and total disaster. So you go to your pastor one last time for help.
Pastor, I don't know what to do. Everything in my life is a mess. I feel there is no way out and I've even contemplated suicide.
A normal pastor from an ordinary church would move heaven and earth to help you. He would tell you that life is precious and too many people love you. If he didn't have the answers to help you he would find someone who did.
Kekel says go ahead and kill yourself, as if you'd be doing him a favor. Kekel has a soul that is void of understanding and compassion.
This incedent with Kekel, does not surprise me at all, he has a very cocky and arrogant personality. He would have been the last person I would have ever went to regarding my problems. I can't think of a worse "Pastor" to talk to for spiritual counselling. He is so void.
A lot of people talk about Kekel, and rightly so, but Olson ain't right either. He's so full of it "I prayed for u this day" and yet he can't give any advice. He ain't got time. All RDub and Olson got time for are their daughters, their vacations and Denny's.
Great examples Don and Ange. Once again, you nailed it. Ordinary good church vs the wacko bad NTCC.
That's the difference between the judgmental, inconsiderate NTCC leaders and good hearted compassionate, merciful church leaders. Compassionate church leaders care for their members and show love. Judgmental inconsiderate heartless church leaders only care about one thing, tithe. Thats why Olson told Brother Bellamy that he and Davis couldn't help him and that is why Kekel told Crowell to go ahead and kill himself.
These NTCC creeps don't care about you but what they do care about is your tithe. NTCC leaders are notorious for taking their faithful people for granted. With few exceptions, the only time they come to see you is when you miss church. They could care less about you otherwise. Oberhauser went for about one year without even calling me. Ramirez only came to see me (after) I'd quit going to his church. These guys could care less about you until they lose your tithe. When it starts to hurt their wallet, all of a sudden they care a whole lot. Vic, MDR and Bro Bellamy all figured out just how much RWD cared; NONE.
RWD cares about only two things where his members and ministers are concerned; blind loyalty and tithe. He don't care about your family, he don't care about your life and he don't care about you. People, if you think I'm kidding or wrong, I'm not. Blind loyalty and tithe, bottom line. He still doesn't love you but he'll tolerate you if you blindly follow him and pay your tithe. He'll even rent you one of his many houses as long as you pay him in cash. He'll even let you occupy one of his church buildings as long as you pay him rent. He'll even come visit you as long as you take up some good offerings for him while he is there, (even though he is already a millionaire and you need the money way more than he does). He'll even talk to you as long as you let him talk and you listen. Boy, that's the kind of friend and brother I want. NOT!!!!!!
Chief
Anonymous said...
All RDub and Olson got time for are their daughters, their vacations and Denny's.
Chief said...
Ain't that the truth but you forgot a few. They got time to count your money. They got time buy and sell property. They don't have time to give you sound advise but they make time to blast you from the pulpit. They make time to unlock their front door or their car door so you can clean their houses or their cars. They make time to point out the church exit doors if there is something you don't like about their church. And last but not least, they make plenty of time to talk about you like a dog when you leave their church.
Chief
So guess what I'm doing here on this blog? Making time to repay the favor. The main difference is, this blog's audience is a lot bigger than theirs.
They can run your name in the dirt after you leave their church and only so many people will listen. The last time I checked, this blog has over 200,000 hits which means a whole lot of people are listening. Go ahead Kekel; you preach to your 100s but we're preaching to thousands on his blog. Mr Kekel, I was told that you ran Mr. Hayes name in the dirt so we are just repaying the favor. You are the sorriest most low down leader I've ever met in my life. Even though I think you have them beat, I'm not sure who is worse, you, Olson or your father-in-law.
Chief
Those rules make sense. I never have forsaken my parents. I talked to them frequently. And when I had problems I did not go to the Org but my parents. (I lost my job for schedule conflict with Church_Lesson learned) In fact, they made sure I had insurance until I got another job (paid it) and gave me money. I can't say the Org would have. The rest of my family helped me too.
My REAL family (not Christian according to the Org)never belittled me or threw it in my face that I needed them. I remained close to my family. Although my family wasn't in the Org, I never let ANYONE down talk my family. I would always say I came from a Christian family....although they weren't Org material they exhibited Christ-like behavior.
And another thing before I would go to a Pastor in the Org for advice, I would go to my family. All they do is counsel a person with their wife present so they can go behind the person's back and talk about them and their situation. For example, marital problems got told (names withheld) over the pulpit. Also, they make themselves better by listening to other people's problem. I have heard them relate someone's problem then say "I have got it good..."
What kind of compassion is that. Save it! I would call mom or dad and talk to them, get some compassion, scripture and maybe a donation in the mail ;)
Glad to be done with that!!
Don & Ange said..."A minister comes to his pastor or overseer with major financial problems.
Ordinary Pastor from a normal church says: Let's look at some scripture and pray about this and see what we can do to help you."
Those are definitely some good examples and as your situation gets progressively worse it seems like they do even less. Kekel learned this callousness from RWD-bag because as has been told on this blog and Don & Ange's about Eric Barden. Most counselors understand to look for signs of depression, being withdrawn, not eating, etc. and would never under any circumstance say "go do it", daring you to end your life.
It's like you have to override your common sense in order to come to them with your problems because you have a problem that you should be able to take to them, but know they will not help you to solve it. If you have financial problems, they won't help you work out a solution or even pray for you. The will cross examine you about being up to date on your tithe and question you about making stupid purchases, wasting your money, etc.
This only leads to causing division between you and your wife as you use these questions as accusations against her. With the questioning comes distrust and disatisfaction. Before you know it you have bitterness between these couples as financial difficulties mount and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight and you still feel responsible for paying for your family, the church / office / room you are renting or paying for (If it is bought for NTCC gets weekly mortgage checks paid to the order of NTCC).
You try to pay for the expenses of the church, but you are taking grocery money that you promised in order to cover utilities and rent for this money pit. Your wife's confidence in you is shaken and she feels that there is not any security for her. The husband can hardly look at himself in the mirror and has problems with confidence and even spending time with his wife without arguing. Disastisfied and dejected, they try to seek counsel with their Pastor but are only told to pray and "hold steady".
Getting off the phone they have that hopeless feeling that they won't be able to come out of their problems. This is the atmosphere where it is easy for adultery to happen, for a spouse to walk out on the other when enough is enough, where children go without in order to continue to pay the rent. The only counseling they do is like the counsel that Job received where they blame you for your circumstances and will not help you to figure it out or show any form of compassion.
I wish all of NTCC would read this! It all rings so true...the feelings one has while in NTCC...
It's so easy to think it's a personal issue or the devil, when it's really the "system". We are so much better since we've left the org. Thank God our family has had compassion on us for our stupidity and basically shunning them because of what a "pastor" said.
You are so right Chief, they "make" time, if it benefits them.
Any one ever hear them say, "If you eat at McDonald's, you don't pay Burger King"?
They would say that so that everyone knew, if you came from a church, but now you are here and are getting fed here @ NTCC, don't send ur money to anyone else but NTCC.
But they are hypocrites!!! I've witnessed it!!! A brother was somewhere where there was no NTCC, he was attending another Christian Church, and he was told to send his tithe to NTCC!!!!! Hypocrites! Liars!! Double Standards...only when it benefits them!!! They didn't feed him or care one bit or take any time out for him!...but they wanted his money!
These are great points. That's all I can say.
Chief
This is really good stuff, Chief, Steakboy and Anonymous. This is the stuff that makes you shake your head and wonder why we ever allowed ourselves to be a part of this system. It seems to me that the ntcc leadership has a system where pastoral advise and counseling is canned into responses that ALWAYS deflect guilt back on the person that is sharing their problems in "confidence". In other words, you are the problem.
In the ntcc you and your family, if you are lucky enough to be granted one, are placed in a no win scenario or Kobayashi Maru. The Kobayashi Maru was a no win scenario in Star Trek. At the Space Cadet Academy or Star Trek's version of bible school, all students had to participate in a simulation as a Captain of a star ship, (Star Trek's version of the Pastor on a hopeless mission). The mission was to rescue the passengers of a ship called the Kobayashi Maru, (lost souls). The ship was surrounded by Klingon ships, (devils and God-haters), and the simulation was programmed to be impossible to beat. The purpose of this test was so that the Captain of a star ship could learn how to handle himself in the face of fear and certain death. No one ever beat this test until Captain Kirk came along, for he did not believe in no win scenario's so he created a subroutine that reprogrammed the simulation in a manner that allowed him to rescue the crew of the Kobayashi Maru and destroy all the Klingons without losing one life.
When you seek counselling from Davis, Kekel or Olson, you place yourself in an impossible situation and their advise is always going to be the same. Your problem is always your fault and you have to find a solution, but the conditions of the test are impossible to beat. If you play by their rules, get a job that doesn't interfere with your church activities, pay church rent, sleep in a storefront building, take baths in a sink, feed your family ramen and preacher tube steaks, (Hot dogs), or preacher round steaks, (Bologna) and pay your measly church tithe and pastor tithe to Davis who put you in this situation, you are sure to endure hardships and problems that are insurmountable.
What you need to do is to create a subroutine. Change the conditions of the test. Realize that you are not going to get any help from the greedy money grubbing hypocrites in Washington. The first thing you need to do is to stop paying your tithe. Then get the best paying job you can, allow your wife to work if she wants to and start saving your money. You will have enough time to save up enough money to get an apartment before the ntcc can legally kick you out of the store front you are living in. Provide for your family and save up some money and attend an accredited bible school or seminary. Make sure you find one that doesn't have a bunch of stupid cult rules and that isn't all about money. Put your self in a situation that is conducive to success. Allow them to send you out into a real established work where you can focus on helping people. And then when you are in a situation where people are coming to you with overwhelming problems, you can help rescue them by giving them viable solutions and praying for them. Pointing them to genuine people that are trained to help folks with similar problems. When your people experience love and a helping hand, and they are given hope and allowed the space to work through their problems, they will in turn be your greatest ally when you need them. This is how things are supposed to work and churches should operate.
Don't believe the ntcc when they try to heap guilt on your head and make you feel like an abject failure. Why would you want to surround yourself with miserable comforters? Place yourself in an environment where other successful people are not selfish or jealous of your success. Surround yourself with good people that care about you and your family and will love you as they love Christ. You will not find this in the ntcc leadership.
DnA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLQxvaUeP2A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A3EuP80qDM
Is that the youth group at Graham?
Don and Ange, I don't think all or even many NTCC Pastors live in the store front or church building but your point was well taken. I also don't think Pastors should stop paying tithe altogether but I do think they should pay it to their own church at their own location just like Pastor Davis does.
Anonymous said:
"Don and Ange, I don't think all or even many NTCC Pastors live in the store front or church building but your point was well taken. I also don't think Pastors should stop paying tithe altogether but I do think they should pay it to their own church at their own location just like Pastor Davis does."
DnA said:
I'm not sure how in touch you are now with the ntcc or how much you know about their past. I'm okay with your attempt to downplay what has taken place in the ntcc, however, I'm not going to give them a pass on this. Do you know where every minister is at in the ntcc? Do you know for sure that there aren't any living in store front buildings as they have in the past? Or do they all live in deluxe upper end housing like Reginald Terry? (slums and projects). I never said that all of them lived in slums and I know that you understood my point, but people tend to glaze over and marginalize what we all had to endure while in the ntcc. I did use a case of extreme financial duress to drive home the point, but there are so many instances in the ntcc of financial hardships endured by many of it's ministers.
There are too many people giving these crooks a pass, and I'm not going to be a party to that. In addition to financial hardships there are emotional, spiritual and physical cases of outright abuse by the ntcc that were brushed under the carpet.
No sympathy for them here. As for tithe, I disagree. If you can't provide for your family, you have no business giving money that God does not require you to give in the New Testament. If you chose to pay your tithe out of your own personal convictions, then the last place you should pay it is to a bunch of rich and religious hypocrites. But if your family has to do without the basic needs in life and they are not fed, clothed or housed properly there is a scripture that clearly deals with this, and it's pretty cut and dry. You are worse than an infidel. What does the bible say you are if you don't pay tithe in the New Testament? Nothing. There is no mandate, or consequence in the New Testament for not paying tithe, especially to a bunch of crooks that have scared people into thinking they will go to hell if they don't pay them 10% or their gross pay and every increase. Sorry anonymous, Christ never required it, Paul never required it and I'm not buying it either.
DnA
Also, I'm not sure if Davis does pay tithe, but if he does, he pays it to himself, just like Kekel said that Davis gave the land to the ntcc. It was never in Davis's name on paper, it was given to the ntcc, then Kekel and then back to the ntcc. But as Olson says, "Davis is the organization".
Never once did I let me family go to the wayside, which seems to be common practice in the NTCC. This is a big mistake, they really are the only people who will be there for you through thick and thin. I have seen countless people just let their families go because it seemed, they where not "right" with God so they where not needed any longer.
BIG mistake, they will be the only ones left, the NTCC so called preachers won't be there for you and the "Brothers and Sisters", they won't be there either, its all set up that way. You will truly be on your own. I have said this before. hold on to your family for dear life. No matter what. There comes a time in everyones life when problems come, you will need them.
Do you know where every minister is at in the ntcc? Do you know for sure that there aren't any living in store front buildings as they have in the past?
Yes I happen to personally know many NTCC Pastors who do not live in the store front or church building. They may live in an apartment which is a dump but that is not a store front. I'm not down playing what you wrote. I'm on your side but I feel what you wrote was an exaggeration. Admittedly some have lived in store fronts but not the majority. Neither one of us knows where every NTCC minister lives but I do know plenty who do not live in a store front. Please don't make more out of my statement than exactly what I wrote. I used the word please so I don't want to turn this into a debate. Thank you.
I remember one conference in graham many moons ago. This was when the gaylords were around. He admonished the minister couples there present, about how childish it was to bring marital problems to the pastor.
I remember him saying just plain and simple, that it wasn't anybody's business to know what problems you had with your spouse. Why not pray about it and bring it to Jesus, he said.
Which made sense. I suppose there are problems that you need some guidance but you can't be too trusting, specially in ntcc, beause
Sooner or later they'll use you as an example in the preaching. They might not use names but you are not that stupid to put 2 and 2 together and find out who they are referring too.
I remember when the reeds left, somebody was saying that they already knew they (reeds) had "leaving in their mind" I was astounded!
So my point is that whatever you say to any pastor or sister or brother, it is not confidential.
By the way, I'm with you on the tithe thing but I was trying to find a comfortable medium. If we are to free these NTCC people who are trapped, I think subtlety is often wise. If they stop sending tithe to Graham but keep it in their own church, which was my suggestion, they won't remain with the NTCC long. Not only that, if they are paying tithe to their own church who do you think is in control of it? RWD is essentially not paying tithe at all because he keeps it in his own church, if he even pays it, and he has control of it. So what would be the difference if another NTCC Pastor kept his tithe in his own church?
Don and Ange, you and I were on the same sheet of music but I think you may not have recognized that. No trouble.
Anonymous said...
I remember him saying just plain and simple, that it wasn't anybody's business to know what problems you had with your spouse.
Chief said...
I remember RWD basically saying the same thing but then he said, if you told him your business, don't get mad at him when he preached about it. That whole mentality is sick. Essentially what he was saying was if you didn't want him spread your business all over the globe you better not tell it to him.
Folks would do well to take his advise and take it a step further. If you need real legitimate counseling, go to anyone other than an NTCC pastor or you are quite likely to here it come across the pulpit.
Chief
Anonymous said...
If we are to free these NTCC people who are trapped, I think subtlety is often wise. If they stop sending tithe to Graham but keep it in their own church, which was my suggestion, they won't remain with the NTCC long.
Chief said...
Doctrinally I think DnA are on the money but I can understand your approach. DnA did make a logical point. The Bible and specifically the New Testament makes it clear that you ain't saved if you don't provide for your family. So if you are too tight on money, you better take care of your family before you give your money to Kekel. No matter what, knowing what I know now, the NTCC/Kekel/RWD wouldn't get a dime of my money anyway because they are no more than a bunch of crooks. God doesn't expect me to give my money to known crooks.
Chief
It's all good, Anon, disagreements are allowed and there probably was a little misunderstanding on both sides. I never said anything about all or most of the ntcc ministers living in a store front. The good thing is that people have a voice here and we all are allowed to voice our opinions. I might not agree with you or others on one or two points, but people usually don't, especially on blogs. Chief and I talk on the phone every once in a while and we usually disagree on lots of topics from Tebow to political issues. In spite of this, we usually find some common ground and have some pretty good chats. I also can see your point on tithe, now that you explained where you were coming from. It' all good.
Chief said, "If you need real legitimate counseling, go to anyone other than an NTCC pastor or you are quite likely to here it come across the pulpit."
Anon says,
It's funny u mention counseling. Since I've left I've had to go to see a psychologist, and they have such sound advice on how to actually HELP me, not just "encouragement" but they are much more knowledgable on helping people. And they won't tell your business to everyone. Many in NTCC would do go to go to a psychologist...but many times, people act like they are okay, because we had to put up some front to be a great "testimony". Well, let me tell you, since I've accepted the fact that I need help, I have been a GREATER testimony to those around me than when I was with Ntcc.
People don't run away from me now like they used to. You should try it some time. leave ntcc and be a normal person with your own interests and personality and you may just draw people to you and Christ instead of pushing them away.
Anonymous said:
"People don't run away from me now like they used to. You should try it some time. leave ntcc and be a normal person with your own interests and personality and you may just draw people to you and Christ instead of pushing them away."
DnA said:
I'm glad you got some help and are able to talk about it. There is nothing wrong with getting professional help unless you get it from people that are unprofessional. The ntcc is not a place to get advise or help with personal matters. I think Davis and Kekel despise people that realize they need help and when people come to them seeking help, they use it as an opportunity to spread their negativity into your life. They know that you realize there is a problem, and they want you to sear your conscience like they have done and coexist with your problems.
They also make sure that you blame yourself for anything that is wrong in your life. By blaming yourself it absolves them of any responsibility for placing you in an environment that fosters issues. They never made things right in their own lives. Instead of seek help, they lied to themselves and told themselves that everything was hunky dory.
You are right, Anon. When you have your own interests and personality you are a lot more fun to be around. If you spew out hatred and negativity all day long and you are a so called leader of a so called spiritual organization, what you get is a small group of self righteous people that nobody wants to be around.
If you ntcc'rs wonder why your churches will not grow and why an organization that is going on 5 decades old, has never taken off, just think about those four fingers that are pointing back at yourselves. It's not God that's dead. People don't see anything they want, because you have become machines that have no personality. Who wants what you have? You claim to have Jesus but your actions are contrary. You don't display any of the fruit that a Christian is supposed to bring forth. You don't treat people with decency and you are constantly negative. You have no help to offer and nobody wants to be around you. You need professional help.
If you want to be a positive and enthusiastic person who displays the love of God, you need to get away from negative people. If you surround yourself with people that find fault with everyone around them, you will become just like them. The ntcc is a bunch of sour pusses. They can't have happiness because they are in a completely controlled environment. When every step you take is taken in fear, you can't live a life that radiates joy and peace. Who wants to be like you, when there is nothing appealing to emulate?
DnA
DnA asked...
Who wants to be like you, when there is nothing appealing to emulate?
Chief said...
I spent years in the NTCC and I don't want to be ANYTHING like the folks who are part of that organization. They are so fake it's unbelievable. "Bless you brother, bless you sister, I'm praying for you brother, we missed you in church sister, praise God brother, you can't out give God brother, God will make a way brother".
They do no more than blurt out a bunch of preconditioned responses that have no substance. Hey I'm broke: "Praise God brother, we're praying for you". My child is sick, "Praise God brother, we're praying for you child". I don't know how I'm going to pay my rent, "Praise God brother, just keep giving, you can't out give God, God will make a way."
A week later and the rent still ain't payed and your kid is still sick. How about this approach.
Church member: My kid is sick and it's Thursday.
Pastor: "Well Bro, you certainly shouldn't be in church tonight, take your kid to the hospital or doctor and see to it that he gets better. Until then, if there is anything you need, just call us.".
Church member: I can't pay my rent.
Pastor: "Well brother, do you need to work extra hours? You ain't going to die and go to hell if you miss church cause your job gave you extra hours. Let me look and see what is in the general fund or the escrow and see if we can't help you out like they did in 1 Cor Chapter 16.
Church member: I don't know how I'm going to afford to pay tithe?
Pastor: Well brother, putting your family in a position where they don't have a place to live makes you equal to an infidel according to 1Tim 5:8. Paying your tithe ain't going to do you good if you are not even providing for you family. Have you thought about going to see a professional budget counselor brother? Someone who is qualified to help you get your funds straight? Also brother, why did you pledge $1000 if you can't pay your bills. Bro, get your own house in order and then worry about the rest of this stuff cause bro, the Bible says you are worse than an infidel if you don't provide for your family. Don't allow the church to prevent you from taking care of your family."
Imagine that!!!
Chief
chief, amen and amen.
Now that is what a regular, normal person would say.
Not all the spiritual mumbo jumbo that doesn't help anybody.
People wouldnt go to see the doctor because they were conditioned to think that "God will take care of it"
It is not that you are faithless it is common sense!
I remember seeing a comic a long time ago about doofus(face of a bully with a growl in his face) and delightful( face of a nice kid) underneath each of the faces were the things that each would do and I tell you, this reminded me of this whole thing.
Thanks D&A...it's so nice to be able to vent on here! Especially when others "get" it. We all know what we all are talking about when it comes to the org.
I have to remember though not to let them get the best of me...
I could be bitter, but need to forgive, or else I am only hurting myself...but I won't forget!
Anonymous said...
This incident with Kekel, does not surprise me at all, he has a very cocky and arrogant personality. He would have been the last person I would have ever went to regarding my problems. I can't think of a worse "Pastor" to talk to for spiritual counseling. He is so void.
In order to be able to effectively counsel someone, You have to have the necessary tools.
In the brief time I spoke with Mike, I came to realize that he was very superficial. It seems that he has little or no empirical knowledge in the area of Spirituality, or life in general for that matter. He simply does not have it to give. Most of anything he says is something he got out of a book, or something that his Father in Law has parroted over the years. It's simply not there. Charles Spurgeon warned of Preachers and Pastors like him in one of his sermons. He really is not a Pastor, He is more like a motivational speaker, and not even a very good one at that.
Mark G. said:
"In the brief time I spoke with Mike, I came to realize that he was very superficial. It seems that he has little or no empirical knowledge in the area of Spirituality, or life in general for that matter."
DnA said:
I remember the first time I heard Kekel preach, which was probably the one of the first times he had ever preached in a conference. After hearing Ashmore and others, I was looking forward to hearing Kekel. I have to say that I don't even remember the title of his message or the point of it either. He talked the whole time and then brought up Cheech and Chong and talked about them for a spell. It seemed like a total buzz-kill for everyone there. It was so awkward and you could tell that people were uncomfortable not because of the preaching, but because of the lack of spirituality exhibited by Kekel. I remember being in Baptist churches as a kid that had more to offer in the realm of spirituality than what I heard Kekel preach that day.
Kekel has always seemed out of place. While I haven't been around him a whole lot, all of the times I've seen him in conferences, he seems to be all about himself. He's never displayed an ounce of compassion towards anyone that I've ever heard about, and seems smug in his position in the ntcc hierarchy.
To be fair to him and the ntcc, is there anyone out there that can share some details about his compassion and spirituality? I would like to hear some testimony of how he's helped the widows or fatherless, or even a brother in need? Has that ever happened? Has he ever prayed with anyone? I've yet to hear any stories of this guy doing anything except demeaning people and talking down to them. I wonder how many years it's been since Kekel has gone soul winning.
I've looked at his smog blog in the past and he usually gets a lot of "God bless you sir" comments. If God has blessed him, I would think that he would he would return the favor by showing some love to the brethren. Has anyone ever witnessed that? Love, mercy, compassion, anything?
DnA
DnA, you really nailed about how an ordinary pastor would give advice and how a ntcc person would. It is such a shame that I no longer wonder why there are so, so many people that practically disappear when they leave the ntcc, never to be heard from again.
There was a loving couple I remember, so full of love for God she would bring 10 to 20 people at a time to church and when they went to bible school after graduation right away they were sent to servicemen's home work.
They were with the gandy's training.Then the last time I saw them, was in a conference, and she was totally changed!
She looked frazzled and the joy that was there before was gone!Later I heard they had left!
Even those that were close friends with them didn't even know, or maybe just didn't want to say anything.
The NTCC stinks. It is the most low down, heartless organization that I can think of.
A normal pastor from an ordinary church would move heaven and earth to help you. He would tell you that life is precious and too many people love you. If he didn't have the answers to help you he would find someone who did.
Kekel says go ahead and kill yourself, as if you'd be doing him a favor. Kekel has a soul that is void of understanding and compassion.
Since you have refered to my dear brother by name, He was ENCOURAGED BY HIS FIRST NTCC "PASTOR" HIRELING TO MARRY HIS FIRST WIFE AFTER A VERY SHORT COURTSHIP, IN THE TOWN WHERE HE FACED HIS TOTAL FINANCIAL MELT DOWN, HE WAS ENCOURAGED BY ASHMORE TO BUY A HOUSE, BROTHER. IN THE MIDST OF FORECLOSURE, HE WAS "COMMANDED," [instructed] by OLSON to return to Graham, because the LARD wanted him here, he was instruted to leave his house, to the LARD, and he did return. It was after all that, kekel told him, "JUST DO IT."
Just remember what Kekel said over the pulpit, so brothers and sisters in the Lord, when you have problems or need spiritual guidance, Kekel said, "Don't come to me with your problems" So there you have it. He does not want to deal with you, just pay your tithe and leave him alone. He could care less about you. Just be good little Christians and all will be well. This was a sad testament to the kind of church I attended. Totally void of the love for your congregation, he did not care about any of us. His actions and words spoke loud and clear to me. I'm out.
Now that is some kind of leadership. Just prior to this, they drag him into the Borg office, in front of RWD, Olson, and Kekel, and was told, "thus saith the LARD, if you divorce your wife, [because she is a devil, doesn't obey you, or the LARD,] THE LARD SAYS YOU CAN'T REMARRY!!!!! SO YOU BETTER THINK TWICE! OH YAH, THE WORD...
Actually, a suicide is all that the NTCC in Graham needs. They have so much indescretions to cover up, it is sickening. Of course, we all know, suicide is wrong, however, when a person is lonely, broke, and around folks like Kekel and Davis to look to for support. Its no wonder they don't have suicides to try to cover up. I know of Moreno, but it would not surprise me at all to find out about attempted suicides or in patient phych. treatment. Graham and other places with a large NTCC community is a ticking time bomb.
"Of course, we all know, suicide is wrong..."
If that be the case, how wrong is it to help drive someone to suicide?
Bro crowell is a good friend of mine. Let me break down a few of the missing details.
Our brother was ENCOURAGED by his first NTCC pastor to marry a girl he barely knew! He was brand new, and figured God must want him to marry, with out delay. That was his first mistake.
After fighting for many years, for his sanity, our brother decided to separate from his spouse. He was told by at lease 3 of the executive board members, that if he divorced her, that he would have to remain, un-married, to be right with God. He spent some time away from the church, finally returning. Even after she was remarried, the "Board," suggested that he could remarry her, and continue to serve the Lord!?!?
This brother had spent time in various places, pioneering churches, etc. In the last place that he was working for
God, JH Ashmore came to town. He TOLD HIM, "Brother, you need to buy a HOUSE!"
[Praise God],
God wants me to buy a house! So he bought one. Mean while, his wife is still fighting him, fighting the Work Of God, etc.
Some time after this,
JH Olson, called him on the phone,
Brother, God wants you to return to Washington. Ok, sir, I have this house, "Brother, God wants you in Washington..." But, I have to deal with trying to sell my house, "Brother, God wants you in Washington.." God will take care of your house.
He did, and so did the bank.
Brother Crowell told me he had purchased all the ingredients in order to commit suicide, and he figured, that he would contact kekel, to see what, God's view point on his life, and situation would be. It was after speaking to MCK about these details, that the words, "JUST DO IT." rang out from the profits mouth. Our brother, hung up the phone thinking, "God, is that what you think of me....???!!!"
Finally our brother got away from that bunch, went to a real college, earned a real degree and credentials, and is working in a field that he enjoys.
I assure you that, these people would not leave a house in foreclosure, and let it be taken by the bank!
Put up with a spouse who fought him continually, permitted her child to openly challenge his authority, undermine his decisions, and mock him.
And neither would they move all around the country, pioneering churches at their own expense.
Thank God he didn't listen to the advise, "just do it!"
I thought that all these, "leaders"??? say that they walk with God, and they speak for
God.
What kind of mess is this anyway?
I thought hollywood was bad, NTCC tops em all.
Another true story of the grief and agony ntcc puts people through. We're glad Crowell got away from that bunch of sickos.
kekel and the other ntcc 'leaders' don't love the brothers, which means they don't love God "period"!
Really this whole story shows how ntcc puts people into a messed up situation and then blames the people. But ntcc created that mess. They are abusers who beat people down and blame the victims. Sick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t6npABeFcI
New Cult Leader- note the similarities!
Some poor fool said "I was in that meeting and your rat is not telling the story right. Pastor purchased the land with his money, but had the land titled in the NTCC name, in case it was needed for the advancement of the Org. So, since it was his land, he could do with it what he pleased, for it was not NTCC's land to start with, only by paper work..."
OK - "paperwork" is what determines ownership - no "outside verbal agreement" can change that!
What's PATENTLY obvious here is that the land was deeded to the NON-PROFIT ORG so as to avoid being forced to pay property taxes!
There's a word in our language for falsifying "paperwork" to present a false picture of ownership -- we call that **FRAUD**, and it's a criminal offense!
These people belong in prison!
Now...
I was a "preacher's kid" - thankfully NOT in this sick mess, but in an equally strident/fundie "pentecostal" denomination.
My father had a major falling out with the denomination because of their focus on MONEY - an inordinate amount of power was granted to those who wrote big checks...
Add to this the blatant hypocrisy I witnessed in my own home - my parents who I can never remember sharing a bed, who never had 2 words to say to each other sure walked out smiling and holding hands...
Mom used to send notes to school to get me out of gym so nobody would see the bruises from my father's "discipline" - I was taught that I had to accept his abuse because if people found out he was imperfect it would shake their faith in G*d - and I would be responsible for any souls lost for eternity...
Pretty F***ED-UP THING TO DO TO A *KID*, no?
Needless to say, when I got free I wanted nothing to do with my family and even less to do with *ANY* church. It took me a long time to figure out that most of those who claim to speak for G*d wouldn't know him if he spit in their face -- which is EXAcTLY what I believe he'd do...
There was an old black preacher named "Reverend Ike." He'd go on TV and say "Brethren and Sistern, Send me fitty-dollahs... I needs me a new diamond for my finger!"
or
"...Send me fitty dollahs - I needs me a new Lincoln - G*d don't want me drivin' around in LAST year's model!"
I actually had SOME respect for him - at least he was HONEST!
My best friend in HS was being raised by his Grandmother and Great-Grandmother -- two old women on SS raising 2 teenage kids... They gave every penny they could scrape together to "Jim & Tammy-Fay" Bakker... I tried to tell them, but...
Bottom line: These people may be getting over in THIS life, but in the NEXT life they're going to have to answer to Him!
I wouldn't trade places with them for anything in the world!!
Don't let ANY of this shake your faith. G*d is real - religions are made of men and therefore subject to all the evil we can muster.
Do the best you can, and most of all RELAX!!
I'm here to tell you one thing I **KNOW**!: G*d isn't NEARLY as uptight as most of these jerks running around claiming to speak for him!
Dedicated_Dad,
You really left an awesome comment on this land deal thread!!!
That was a pretty good one. I'd overlooked it.
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