I've received information regarding some statements which have been reportedly made by M. Kekel. Now before I continue, please understand that this information is second hand which means that I didn't personally witness Kekel making these statements. Having said that, I believe this information to be highly credible based on where I got it. I will do my best to relay this information as closely as I possibly can to reflect what I heard.
It's my understanding that during a service which Kekel was either a part of or actually holding himself, Kekel decided to start verbally discrediting someone who had left the New Testament Christian Chruch. Apparently Kekel referred to this individual who left the NTCC as being "charismatic" or overly spiritual in nature and someone who believed in the gifts of the spirit. At some point in Kekel's attempt to outwardly and openly smear this individual, Kekel said that "this person who used to be his (Kekel's) pastor, has now become his (Kekel's) enemy.
Obviously there is only one person that Kekel could have been referring to; Ashmore. So once again we see yet another instance where the NTCC leadership, (in this case Kekel) has elected to perform damage control while smearing the name of someone who decided to depart from the NTCC.
Now let me speculate for a bit. Very educated and informed speculation I might add. Ashmore was sent to California to to pastor a church that was previously pastored by someone else. Ashmore had also previously been in a position of authority within the NTCC leadership holding what would be considered a higher position than a pastor. So Ashmore gets sent to California to pastor, which if he continued in that position, would be considered a demotion by most accounts. Why did Ashmore get sent to California? I'm convinced I have the answer, and I'm quite confident that I'm very much on target with this one.
For a long time, Davis was a strong supporter of Ashmore. This is not speculation, but rather an absolute fact. I'm sure as time went on, that Davis knew that Kekel was anything but an advocate for Ashmore. Kekel has proven that he has no problem voicing his feelings about someone, and that is also a fact. I'm sure at some point, Kekel expressed his sentiments about Ashmore to Davis. Well blood is thicker water which is self evident where the Davis, Kekel family was and is concerned and if you think otherwise you are extremely misguided. Davis knew, (either because of his potentially soon approaching inevitable death or currently existing illness) that he would be out of the "NTCC leadership picture" and Kekel would take the reigns. So for Kekel's sake, neither Davis or Kekel wanted Ashmore too close to Graham and they really wanted to move him out of the picture, so off to California Ashmore went. Kekel was certainly jealous of the relationship Ashmore had with Davis and he wanted to eliminate any inevitable power struggles which he knew he'd have with Ashmore, so again, off to California Ashmore went.
Kekel has always disliked and been intimated and jealous of anyone (who had risen to a position of authority) who Davis preferred, which definitely included Denis, because Kekel told me as much himself directly on the telephone. Kekel told me directly, that he disliked Denis and I clearly understand why. Davis liked Denis, and Kekel told me so, so it was obvious JEALOUSY, (on Kekel's part) bottom line. If you think otherwise you are a straight up dummy.
Ashmore and Denis both did something which Kekel has never done and Davis quite clearly recognized this. They created a strong money stream due to their charisma and oratory skills, and they brought many more people into the NTCC than Kekel every could and Davis knew it, but again, blood is thicker than water. So they had to get Ashmore out of the picture, and to make a long story short, they quite effectively "RAN HIM OFF". The NTCC leadership is skilled at performing that task, as they are proven to be experts in the art of "RUNNING PEOPLE OFF"! They do this to people who they are either jealous of or intimidated by. Who are they jealous of or intimidated by? People who are more popular than they are.
Well now, Ashmore is firing back, and though that may be a classic example of the "pot calling the kettle black", you can't blame Ashmore for defending himself even though for decades Ashmore has committed as many dastardly deeds as any other leader in the NTCC. Lastly, I strongly suspect that there is friction between Kekel and Olson and I have sound reasons for making this statement. The NTCC is breaking apart at the seams. If you have any sense at all, you'll get away from the NTCC while the gettin is good. If you're a pastor, (and you have a decent size church) you'll do well to take your church, forsake the NTCC name, and do your own thing. If not, you'll eventually be left high and dry.
168 comments:
I have no reason to think anything else but this hit the nail on the head.
Ashmore should be chairman or secretary. Not pastoring a San Diego church.
ANON MIKE
I was looking through the NTCC website for pastors that I might still know. I almost fell out of my chair when I saw J.R. Ashmore pastoring a church in San Diego. WHAT?
You've filled in blanks that were most likely obvious.
Has Kekel ever pastored a church?
The only Schmekel has ever done is KISS THE BRIDE and run his BIG FAT MOUTH!
Ashmore was a threat that had to be removed.
mdr
I know the reverence many had for Ashmore. What is the general thought throughout the org about Kekel when people speak freely? I was in for about 4 years and never heard a pastor talk about him good or negative.
It would appear to be Kekel has many complexes, mainly an inferiority complex. He clearly realizes he's a fish out of water.
Anon asked...
What is the general thought throughout the org about Kekel
Chief answered...
The general thought is that he's a guy who married into wealth and status. He would not be where he is if it weren't' for Tanya and his father-in-law being Davis and that's plainly obvious. No mystery there. Makes perfect sense. Whoever married Tanya was going to wind up in that position. Kekel's status has nothing to do with a Godly appointment or election. It's a family business and whoever married Tanya was going to be a serious player in that business.
Everyone knows that. Whoever married Tanya was going to wind up in Graham right next to the Davis family. Again, no mystery. Kinson went there because of his father-in-law Johnson, and because Kinson had been Kekel's friend for years and years and years. Once again, nothing to do someone being appointed by God or chosen by God. It never is in the NTCC and it never was.
Davis was always a crook who simply wanted total control of all personnel and money coming into the church which is why he started his own. I can't blame him a bit. If I was going to be a pastor it would have to be the same way; my way. That in itself isn't the problem. Davis' abusive and ultra controlling ways along with him being possibly the biggest hypocrite who ever walked on earth is the problem.
His love of money is also the problem. The root of all evil, ya know??? And that is why he was so evil and that's why Kekel is so evil. Johnson and Olson are just misguided puppets and pawns. Olson is quite a bit more though. He might well be the most evil of them all. It's one thing being the crooked hypocritical (far removed) judge and jury, but yet another to be the executioner who has no problem carrying out the sentence on the innocent. That's Olson.
He is straight up wicked to the max. Conscience far gone. The incarnate real deal WOLF in sheep's clothing. That's Olson.
Kekel??? We all would have married Tanya back in the day probably without exception. I can't hardly blame Kekel for that and you tell me one person who would have refused houses, money. prestige and a position handed to them on a platter?
I can pretty much say with complete certainty that whoever said they wouldn't, is deceived at best but more likely than not, simply a liar.
Chief
Chief said..."I'm sure at some point, Kekel expressed his sentiments about Ashmore to Davis. Well blood is thicker water which is self evident where the Davis, Kekel family was and is concerned and if you think otherwise you are extremely misguided."
From what I understand Lori Defrancesco, Ashmore"s daughter, is not speaking to the Ashmores because they left the Organization.
Well, Pebbles and Bam-Bam are about to learn the very valuable lesson that Blood is thicker than water! It wouldn't surprise me to hear that in a couple of years that the D's have left the Ntcc to go join their "Family" in California!
And then Bam-bam can get up on the pulpit and beat his club on the lectern railing on the D's for selling out God because they love their family more than Gawd!
Lori, call your Mother...She loves you more than Pebbles and Bam-bam!
mdr
Good comment chief.
So those still in the Org are clued in to Kekel being handed the keys to the city? I don't understand why they stay.
The one conference I attended in 99 or 00 had around 2000 people I believe. Wonder what this upcoming one will have. Who even preaches at these things anymore. All of the superstars are gone.
What a joke
Anon said...
I don't understand why they stay.
Chief said...
Because people in a cult are conditioned to ignore and selectively overlook the obvious. We all did it to one degree or another.
ANON MIKE
I think the conf are much smaller and less frequent. Could be wrong though.
Anon asked...
All of the superstars are gone.
Chief said...
Kekel and Olson certainly aren't superstars. They are two of the most boring orators I've ever heard in my life. Jones and Kinson can speak circles around those two. That doesn't mean I respect them more because I don't. I don't respect any of them. NONE. Jones and Kinson can kiss my butt.
I thought jones was finally gone too.
I think Devinshire is being groomed for ashmore's spot. Kinson will take DiFranc spot. THen look for some of these teachers to take spots too including Tanya getting a secretary spot. The more Kekel can stack the board the better.
If Ashmore's church/Churches start getting all the pastors then look out because it's anyones guess.
I thought Kekel was a tolerable preacher; he just doesn't know how to treat people. Olson is soporific. I never heard Phil preach enough to form an opinion, but I know his brother was always a pleasure to hear. Jones was entertaining, although too bombastic. My efforts were pathetic; I was always too uptight to cut loose and it was an agony.
Jeff said..."Jones and Kinson can speak circles around those two."
And in my opinion none of the preachers in the Ntcc, especially M.C. Schmekel, can hold a candle to J.R. Ashmore's Preaching/Teaching ability.
All Schmekel does is yell and bang his "club" on the lectern. Years ago I was called upon to preach at the campus and as I approached the lectern I noticed a couple of big gouges in the wood. After the service I asked Schmekel about them and he bragged, as if it was a badge of honor, that he had put them there during one of his "yelling" sessions!
I half to admit though, when that idiot preached a Christ centered message it was always good, but he still managed to get in the way some how.
mdr
Vic said..." I was always too uptight to cut loose and it was an agony"
Me too Vic! You had messure every word because if you said something amiss you would hear about from Davis or Schmekel...sometimes right in that very service!
mdr
ANON MIKE
Open letter to preachers on the fence
I'll keep this brief. Kekel has not suffered as you have suffered. He has never had to work as you have had to work. He has had the benefit of giving his son all that you were not allowed to give your kids.
If you watch what he's done to Ashmore maybe you should watch your back. Maybe you, who loved Ashmore, should see what your leader does to those who threaten or cross him. Many have left and many more will follow. What are you waiting for?
Man up and free yourself.
Anon said...
I thought Jones was finally gone too.
Chief said...
There is no evidence of such an event. None whatsoever. Jones was recently here in Columbus GA performing a brainwash reinvigorating event AKA revival. He also needed to get a little extra cash of course. He wouldn't have performed re-indoctrination services otherwise.
Haha. I made myself laugh with that one.
Chief
For me, listening to Kekel was difficult because he was monotone for long periods of time. I mean like, wa wa wa wa wa.... That was just my take. Plus his voice was boring. He just didn't have a noteworthy voice. Not deep or high pitched or raspy or anything notable. Just plain bland. I didn't prefer listing to Kekel. Some guys could keep your attention but Kekel simply wasn't one of them to me. Again, just my take.
Chief
Jeff said..."For me, listening to Kekel was difficult..."
Chief, it was difficult for a lot of people to listen to Kekel. I personally witnessed him literally throw temper tantrums in the pulpit when people weren't "getting in" during his preaching! Hence the name Bam-bam! He could be down right scary in church sometimes.
He's a big mouth, Jerky boy!
Most of them preached about things and would get you riled up with us against them.
Ashmore was the only that would preach Jesus & it wouldn't be but 10 seconds into the service and people were dancing and getting healed and feeling the power of God
That's why they would shut him down many times. RWD would literally shut the service down, make a call to prayer or something because people were actually getting touched but he didn't want them to follow Ashmore.
I don't know about the whole healing part. I've been in one of Ashmore's quote, "healing" services and all I saw was a bunch of hocus pocus. Ashmore had one guy pull his wallet out and hold it up to the sky while praying for money. It was a bunch of shenanigans from what I saw. Now in all fairness, the funny part is, the guy who held up his wallet, did become quite financially stable as time went on. I happen to know that for a fact because I know the guy well because we stayed in close contact after we both left the NTCC. Well I didn't hold my wallet up and I'm not doing to bad either if I do say so.
My other problem with the whole theory of Ashmore having some kind of "healing" ministry was why couldn't he get anyone with a real sickness healed like Briggs, (who died a long slow death from cancer). I've never seen anyone in the NTCC get healed who had a real, known legitimately diagnosed illness. Where was Ashmore for all those.
Ok, some women had "periods" that were a little overly messy and long lasting. Who verified that one? Did they check down there on at least a few occasions when there was a problem and then check down there again when it supposedly was fixed? LOL!!!
What about the guy with the headache? Who verified that one? What I did see in those quote, "healing" services was a whole bunch of over exaggerated emotions.
I'll tell you who was notorious for that that. Hunt's wife. In fact they both were; both Hunts that is. J. Hunt had this eye twitching thing going on and R. Hunt had this mild what would appear epileptic deal or something going on.
Whenever the service became emotional they would both start this supposed uncontrollable facial twitching thing that some supposed was Lord taking over their reflexes. I think J. Hunt's was a legit medical condition but I don't attribute the condition to the Lord getting involved. R. Hunts was overly exaggerated emotions coupled with a whole lot of Pentecostal style practice.
You see people, those two examples were the closest thing to someone being spiritually possessed around these parts that I witnessed. I've seen healing services on a whole lot more than one occasion with no notable healing or miracles occurring.
continued below...
For the record: I do believe that God performs miracles and I believe he's worked a few in my life but nothing like what Ashmore was supposedly involved with in all his shenanigans. And I also don't believe (even though I could be wrong) that the Hunts facial twitching episodes were a sign from the Lord. I'm being real which too many Christians aren't.
I believe it was yet another example of charismatic Pentecostalism the likes of which Davis used to slam every chance he got because I listened to him and his preachers do it on numerous occasions. Now, that I did "witness".
Like I said, where was Ashmore when Briggs was known to be dying for almost a year from cancer. What, didn't the Borg have time to send Ashmore down to Texas to pay Briggs a visit?
Man right up to the week that Briggs died, someone came on the internet and claimed by faith that Briggs was healed. Then the next thing you know, Briggs was dead. Like I said, hocus pocus. God didn't tell that person to make that proclamation. That person's overly inflated want-a-be spiritual emotions told him to do it and Briggs died anyway. Now I'm being real. Don't go claiming the Lord is going to heal someone if you don't know for a fact the Lord is going to do it. Makes you look fake and stupid and it makes millions of Christians look like a joke.
How you doing sister, "I'm blessed", "I have a personal relationship with the Lord", "when you get to know the Lord like I do, you'll be blessed too". I don't have a job or money, "just trust the Lord and pray". "We're praying for you brother".
Hocus pocus. How about doing a resume and going out to look for a job and take care of your family and stop being stupid and fake and unrealistic. And if you are broke and need money, don't let some creeps like the Kekels say, "were praying for you brother". You need to say to them, "give me some of your dog gone millions and stop praying for me if you really want to help me out.
Now here is a miracle you can work. If you are broke or short on money, stop giving it to the NTCC either in tithes or offerings and I'll guarantee "praise God" that you'll have more money than you would have if you'd given it away to the NTCC. PRAISE GOD, a MIRACLE has occurred. I didn't give my money away and now I have more than I would have if I did. Praise God. A miracle. You want to see a miracle? If you stop giving the NTCC your money, I'll guarantee you'll have a whole lot more. A miracle indeed.
Chief
Chief wrote...
Now in all fairness, the funny part is, the guy who held up his wallet, did become quite financially stable as time went on. I happen to know that for a fact because I know the guy well because we stayed in close contact after we both left the NTCC.
Chief responded to his own comment...
The guy also left the NTCC, stopped paying the NTCC tithe and that's when he became financially stable. He stopped giving away his money to the NTCC and naturally he had a whole lot more money for himself and his family. Just wanted to make sure I set the record straight so you super-spiritual folks don't get all excited about Ashmore's healing services. What probably happened was when the guy prayed for money, the Lord gave him enough sense to know he had to leave the NTCC and get his priorities straight and then money was no longer a problem for him.
It's not like he's rich but he's now ANYTHING but broke. He has a nice really nice 6 bedroom house and new born child and he ain't broke and he left the NTCC and he's been quote "blessed" ever since and it's largely because he's not giving his money away to some crooked church.
Chief
Every single person I personally know, who left the NTCC is doing WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY better financially. Every single one. No comparison. The NTCC leadership has you hoodwinked and tricked. You think you are going to be financially better off because you give your money to the NTCC when in reality it's the exact opposite. That I can prove for a fact. How many witnesses do you need? If you read this blog and you are better off now, financially than you where while you were in the NTCC, just put a one word comment with only your name. Just remember, not a whole lot of people read this blog. I'll start it.
Chief
Dwayne
Julie
ANON Mike
Said Mike
DNA (2 for the price of 1)
Haha. I like that DnA.
Chief
Lol Too Funny!
Greg
ns
Chief said...
"Man right up to the week that Briggs died, someone came on the internet and claimed by faith that Briggs was healed."
not to sound corny, but maybe God choose to heal Rev. Briggs on the other side.
Heal Briggs on the other side???
We'll never know but what we do know is that his body wasn't healed and that's what the super spiritual faith heal prognosticator was claiming when he posted his prophesy on the internet. Well his prophesy turned out to be a false one. That's very common in the NTCC. NTCC curses more often than not turn into blessings and many of us are evidence of that.
Chief
Briggs knew that the NTCC was crooked. He told me as much.
Chief
Ashmore is using Youtube as a way to get his message out. There are several videos out there and now he's got a bit of a beard.
I've found 4-8 so far. Even doing healing video's of a guys shoulder.
This guy is far smarter than Kekel. I think Ashmore will surpass NTCC since he's got the gravitas to be a leader. Interesting though, he comes across as effeminate at times during his teachings.
When I say 4-8 I believe he's got another preacher doing some videos.
Mdr said...
mdr (x's 10 baby)
Oh Brother Ashmore has a healing ministry. What a scam!
When I was in NTCC I was prayed for by him quite a few times. Each time I was suppose to have been miraculously healed. I was not being prayed for because I had a headache or backache I was being prayed for because I have cerebral palsy. It mostly affects my left side. Yes I have it even now. So Ashmore if I was so miraculously healed did I get unhealed each time? One time Ashmore you claimed my hand grew before your eyes becoming the same size as my other hand. I was so brainwashed I believe it at first. Another time you said my arm straightened out and my left arm was now as long as my right arm. If your prayers healed me why did you have to pray over and over for me. Oh yes I forgot some of the prayers were only focusing on one part of my cerebral palsy. Today I wear braces, walk is an aid, have a crooked arm, a smaller hand, a shorter arm, and other difficultly involving the cerebral palsy but Ashmore I am enjoying my life without your fake healing ministry. I could say more but I leave it there for now.
People are reporting that they are doing better financially since they left the NTCC. That's no surprise.
I bought a new van after I left. I could safely transport my children around town.
I have a nice house. Happy!!!
You can have NTCC
Everyone I know that left the NTCC is doing better than they were before they left. The NTCC will bring you down and often, by the time you realize you've been duped, you've wasted many many years on nothing. So many people are playing catchup. That's the sad part. I was one of the lucky ones. Too many people are not so fortunate. The NTCC is a plague which infects too many people. It's not the last great hope for mankind, but rather a menace to mankind.
Anyway, it's good to hear that people who left the NTCC are doing so well.
Chief
Joan and I even have a farm!
A farm? Wow, that's great news. That sounds really nice.
Chief
I can't believe I never went broke in the org, but we scraped by hand to mouth somehow. Now that the giant leech is off my wallet, things are much easier and our financial condition isn't precarious anymore.
2 homes, 2 cars in the driveway and a good paying job. No thanks to N.T.C.C.
...The NTCC is a plague which infects too many people. It's not the last great hope for mankind, but rather a menace to mankind.
Did you all hear about the Latest "Campground pledges" taken up at the Ntcc compound? From what I understand over a $100,000.00 in pledges were taken up. Devonshire leading the way with a $5,000.00, nope wait, a $10,000.00 pledge to set the pledging in array.
Here's the clincher, the pledges were taken up supposedly for painting floors and new light bulbs for the buildings at the camp.
Wow! That's a lot-ta cash for painting floors!
You don't suppose that Kekel is trying to recoup some of the money that was spent "covering up" the poop pond that the State of MI shut them down for, do you? Hum, look's like Ntcc is up to their old tricks...fleecing the sheep!
..."Devonshire leading the way"!
Now, there's someone that is very hard to listen to in church! He always sounded like he was preaching through his nose! He's probably a lot clearer now though because he doesn't have his nose up Davis' arcs anymore! Just saying!
So that guy kicked it off with a large pledge? More brainwashing. They do that for a reason. It gets the minions feeling guilty because they can't give nearly that much so as a result they dig as deep as they can. Cult brainwashing 101. Davis used to do the same thing. Additionally, they used to openly announce the dollar amount of each pledge made in the presents of everyone. They did that as an additional motivation tool so you would give more (or else you might be embarrassed) by a small pledge. Again, cult giving 101.
I seriously regret giving a single dime to the NTCC. The thought of it will always bother me because it was never used to help anyone in need. If the NTCC ever did give anyone money in the org it didn't even compare the amount that person gave the org anyway so like I said; the org has never helped anyone.
The org will always flourish. None of us will stop that train. Sad but true.
Chief
Hello Chief,
I don't know if you care to communicate with me anymore but i wonder if i could call you to talk to you. I don't want to argue.
Im trying to publish this comment on iphone but getting no confirmation message whether u received it.
It worked after a few tries.
Or if you can call me if you have the chance my number is 5138827000. Same for Don or MDR if you all care to talk to me anymore. I understand if you don't but i would really appreciate it.
I agree that you can't stop the few who have been enriched from staying wealthy. However, when conferences are down, churches are down, pastors and congregations are fleeing it gives me hope that they'll lose control of their empire.
Kekel has millions... FINE. Seeing him fail to keep control would be a prize for me though. Not only that but if he were to hang on for as long as possible or even better too long, it could take his fortune with him.
MIKE
Grant would have no empire to take over. I'd like that as well.
Saturday Ashmore put about 4 or 5 teaching videos on YouTube. Background is the ocean or cliffs, very effective scenery. This guy is doing things that are highly effective for the modern church to be doing. As much as I might hate the things I've read that he has done I wouldn't mind him destroying NTCC.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm pumping him up at all, just want NTCC to fall on Kekel's face by any means necessary.
Kris,
I read your blog and I found it a bit long and hard to digest. Could you make it more easy to understand?
Maybe you could explain that all who place their faith in Jesus Christ are immediately placed by the Holy Spirit into one united spiritual Body, the church (1 Corinthians 12:12-13), the bride of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-32; Revelation 19:7-8), of which Christ is the Head (Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; Colossians 1:18).
Maybe you could explain the oneness of the one Church.
The Church has one Head: Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church
The Church has one Spirit: 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
The Church's one foundation: 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Try to make it more easy to understand the points you are trying to make.
Mahalo
ANON MIKE
It looks like new Video's are coming out daily from Ashmore and his church. I'd say social media is definitely what they're going to use to grow. NTCC is going to have trouble keeping up with that kind of ability to indoctrinate and manage their message. Time will tell though.
If you ask me I think Ashmore is giving the appearance of a Kook! Especially the"Shawna Project" video! It took me back to the days of being in NTCC and I got discussed very quickly and had to turn it off.
Bottom line is that Ashmore followed and backed the play of Davis and still would be if that crooked snake oil salesman was alive!
I wouldn't follow Ashmore across the street!! He's a Kook, just like Kris Moore! Need I say more?
Well, if you wanted to hurt my feelings, you succeeded. I don't know for sure who you are, but you are pretty good at making someone feel bad. Do you feel good?
And for that matter, if anyone wants to call me to talk about the subject of what the true church really is, you can call me just to talk. I would like to talk to people who have left about the subject of what we should do now that we have left NTCC. I have questions as I am sure some of you do, too. People can say what they want about me. God knows my motives. I want to know what is the true Church. I don't think I'm a prophet or to have it all figured out. I'm talking about talking with people to figure out together what God wants for us now.
Jeff, Don, and MDR:
I don't know if you all read my message. This is really hard for me. I am having a hard time knowing what God wants me to do. I read much of what has been written from Julie. I think if this is true then it really is horrible. On the one hand, I don't wish it is true, because I truly wouldn't want to wish that someone really experienced being treated like that. On the other hand, if she is telling the truth, I want to support someone who has experienced that and I can only imagine how bad it would feel to have someone not believe you.
Julie, if you really are who you say you are, I have prayed for you and I feel terrible for you. I just want to say thank you for sharing your stories. I hope you will understand my point of view. I never saw anything like that in NTCC so it is just hard for me to believe. I'm not saying I don't believe you. I actually want to believe you, because it would mean that I was right to leave NTCC. If they really did those things, then there is no reason in the world for me to even consider that I made a mistake in leaving. I want to believe the truth. If what you are saying is true, Julie, I want to believe you.
I wish I could talk to you, MDR, about Roland. Don, I appreciated your investigative research, especially in that you said there was no record of a death of St. Claire, Sr.
It seems odd, to say the least, that RW Davis and St. Claire both died within about a year of each other as well as Ashmore splitting, all of whom were accused by Julie of such atrocious things.
I called Mr. Kekel the other day and asked him why he doesn't sue these bloggers that are saying he raped a woman named Julie since he threatened to take me to court for writing about NTCC on my blog a while ago. He said, he probably will and he said something like, "when it's all over" I wonder if he means, when the trial is over.
Anyways, I wanted to talk to you all. I want to know more about these stories. NTCC is where I spent so much of my life. I want to know the truth about the men behind it. Kekel claims you all are "not telling the truth."
I know what I witnessed in NTCC and much of it was not good, but I just never saw or experienced what Don experienced or what Julie did. It is hard to believe that they were that wicked. I sat at dinner tables with them. Are they really that heartless and cruel? Are they really that truly opposite of who they said they are? It just seems hard to believe that this is all possible. They want us to believe that you all are just saying this because you are disgruntled and are lying about them.
I want to do my own investigative research. I want to really find out the facts about this. I started out doing that about Roland years ago, but MDR wouldn't contact me. I want to do something about Julie's case now. I want to know for myself if Julie is a real person. It would help me to know - if she is a real person and telling the truth- that I have made the right decision in leaving. Julie, if you are really who you say you are, how can I know that you are real and really who you say you are? I want to find the people who knew you and talk to them. I want to be a witness for you that you are telling the truth. Don stopped me from doing this before. I tried to ask you about this on his blog and he wouldn't allow my comment on his blog.
Sorry... I meant to post this first.
"Try to make it more easy to understand the points you are trying to make.
Mahalo"
I don't know if you really want clarification or if you are just telling me what I should have written instead of what I wrote.
Your points are sound. I don't refute them.
Honestly, I don't really want to get into a debate on this blog again. If you want to call me to talk about it, I am happy to talk to you about it. 513-882-7000.
Jeff, Don, and MDR:
I don't know if you all read my message. This is really hard for me. I am having a hard time knowing what God wants me to do. I read much of what has been written from Julie.
Don said:
Kris do yourself a favor and worry about yourself and not other people. You are all over the map. If you could hear yourself, you don't know what to think, who to believe, if you are coming or going. This is what happens when you get mixed up in other cults. We tried to help you several times by warning you not to get involved in a different holiness group but you wouldn't listen. Now you want to investigate Julie because you believe her but you don't believe her, you want to believe her but you can't believe her.
I'm telling you dude, you need to get some help for yourself and stop worrying about other people. Now this is an issue that was brought out on our blog and I will address it further on our blog. We are not trying to beat you down or hurt you more than you already are, but you are discrediting Julie by questioning her existence and you have no reason other than your own instability to come to your conclusions.
You are the reason why we are trying to keep people from jumping from the ntcc cult to the Ashmore cult. If you could read your own writing and process it from a position of a sound mind, you would find that you are opposing yourself over and over. It's almost like you are in an arguement with yourself. There might be hope for you if you would concentrate on fixing you instead of everyone else. As for Julie, we have been very thorough with her and her testimony is true to us. We have spent hours talking to her on the phone and corresponding with her through emails. We have asked her tough questions and other people have verified much of what she has shared. Keep in mind that she was remembering things from 3 decades ago and trying to piece together times and places as accurately as possible. Someone pointed out that she got a town wrong or a date wrong at some point, but I know if I was trying to recall as many details as we asked her to recall, I would have probably made a mistake or two.
That's all I'm going to say on this blog, Kris. We will address a few of the other points you brought up on our blog because I'm not sure if Chief wants to go this direction with his blog or not. As far as Julie is concerned, she has faced her past and she is not afraid to speak for herself. If she chooses to entertain your questions, that is up to her.
Don said..."This is what happens when you get mixed up in other cults."
Kris, We don't come on this blog in hopes of finding direction for our lives. We've already accomplished that. We come on here for one reason and one reason only and that is to "EXPOSE NTCC" for what they are and what they are currently doing! That's it. If we wanted to get involved with another church or cult as you have done we would call you, but...!
Take care dude!
mdr
ANON MIKE
I'm not seeing why everyone is ticked at Kris for? Don't know him but he seems to be trying.
Mike
Anon Said
"Kris, We don't come on this blog in hopes of finding direction for our lives"
I have to disagree to some degree, I know I needed to learn that this was not some Moses leading his children to the promised land through NTCC. I was brainwashed or just wanted to believe I had found something special.
I didn't start to heal at all until I visited NTCCEXER Blog and this blog and exploring factnet. BAD STUFF MAN.
I was able to have peace in my decision to leave.
Mike, it's basically because i still believe in scriptural holiness as Don so plainly attested to above and i defended scriptural holiness against Jeff and Mr. Reed (mdr). It's a bit odd because Mr. Reed introduced me to scriptural holiness many years ago. I warned them that they are making a mistake putting down things that are sacred and of God like living a life that is disciplined and not worldly. I can understand warning people about the things ntcc has done but i think they r blind leaders of the blind n if they censor this, and don't publish it i think they r hypocrites for putting down ntcc for not allowing their comments on their blogs. They r putting down holiness because they were involved in a corrupt holiness church. They make the mistake of thinking then that holiness must be wrong. They then join worldly churches n want u to do the same. For this, they are ignorant. Google rapes by preachers or corrupt preachers and see for yourself it is not a holiness-specific phenomena.
Don, why did you question Julie if you really did question her? Weren't you questioning then what she said by further questioning her?
Its nice for you that, upon interviewing Julie, YOU feel confident that she is telling the truth. I have to wonder whether she was created by you though. I have not had the privilege of talking to Julie one-on-one. You are right. If Julie exists, it is her prerogative to talk to me or not. I don't know if you are qualified to help someone such as Julie either. Maybe you are but the very fact that you spend so much time ranting against an org and apparently little time talking about what to do now that you have left the org as far as living for God is concerned could indicate you don't know anything more than to live in perpetual hatred. Didn't u see the Star Wars trilogy? Remember when Luke was defeating Vader? Vader started to give up and encourage Luke saying "that's it. Use ur anger." If u DEFEAT them what will it gain u if u lose your own soul? I'm not against doing careful research- as u urself admitted u did with Julie - but all i m saying to Julie - not to YOU sir- is that i wish i could have the privilege of talking to her to at least know she is not- well- YOU, Don.
"Take care dude!"
I wish you the very best and that we will both meet again in heaven. Thank you for sharing the gospel with me when i was a young Christian. I am pretty sure you didn't like me back then - thats being conservative- and i didn't really appreciate being knocked so hard on the head with ur cane. I really looked up to u. I wished you would have liked me. I will pray for God to bless u n Sis Reed. I just wish i could have learned more from u about roland's death. I wonder if he was murdered along with his family.
Take good care MDR
I would hope any Accusation is questioned. Innocent until proven guilty.
There is just to much innuendo out there for something not to stick though. Be careful if you send your wife to clean his house. Be careful if you leave your children with them. I wouldn't.
Kris, (Now Anonymous) said:
Mike, it's basically because i still believe in scriptural holiness as Don so plainly attested to above and i defended scriptural holiness against Jeff and Mr. Reed (mdr).
DNA said:
Kris, I don't attest holiness and I don't even care what people wear, but you can wear whatever you want and it's not going to get you to heaven. My problem with holiness has very little to do with how people dress, but more about how the people that practice man made holiness treat other people. You can dress tie yourself into a big potato sack and cut eye holes in it but if you hate your brother, it does you no good.
I have seen one common thread in organizations that preach holiness or hell and that is that the groups that practice it treat others like they are going to hell for not practicing it. Show me a scripture Kris. One scripture, that says if a woman wears pants she is going to hell. You can't do it with tithe and you can't do it with so called holiness doctrine.
People are so hung up on doctrine that they don't read their bibles for themselves. The ntcc loved to flaunt their holier than thou attitude and I've seen the same thing with the Amish, the Oneness, the mormon, Warren Jeffs cult and the list goes on. If you want to know what kind of people you should not try to emulate, go find a holiness organization and see how much love they have for people who don't believe the way they do. How many sermons did Jesus preach about holiness? There are more spoken words of Jesus in the bible than any other prophet or apostle, so how is it Mr. Bible Scholar that Jesus forgot jack people up over how they dressed? The only people Jesus jacked up over their clothing was people like you and in his day those people were called Pharisees. They loved to walk around in long robes and to be seen of people and recognized. They loved to pray long prayers in the synagogues. Jesus didn't seem to care what people wore unless you are reading a different version of the bible than the rest of us.
Anonymous said...
ANON MIKE
I'm not seeing why everyone is ticked at Kris for? Don't know him but he seems to be trying.
Mike
DNA said:
Kris has a history on the blogs of disrupting, and being double minded. He came on the blogs several times and published some pretty good comments. Then he asked us all to remove those comments. We went through the tedious task of going through our blogs and all of the comments and removing all of his comments and then he started commenting again. We told him that we were not going to erase his comments any more and he got mad.
Then Kris started going to some other holiness cult and wanted to preach his holiness doctrine to all of us bloggers. He didn't get the support that he thought he should get and he took his marbles and went home.
Then we had Julie St. Clair share with us her testimony. She shared some things that a lot of people have trouble believing, and I understand that. We chose to believe her and another person in the medical profession that have read the blogs and have dealt with many rape victims also believed her. We were just starting to get Julie to open up and share her story when Kris and another guy came on and wanted to interrogate her. She didn't even feel comfortable for quite some time talking to me because she feared Men. She had feared them for quite some time because of the violence she endured. We asked nicely for Kris and the other guy to leave her alone but they didn't want her to share her testimony, they wanted to discredit her character by attacking her before her story could be shared. I didn't really care if people believed her or not at the time, I felt her testimony was credible enough to share publicly and so did Ange. In fact Ange and I both worked on this for weeks and as Julie's testimony was shared, other witnesses came forward and verified much of what she said. Lisa shared her story. I suppose we just invented Lisa and Lori and Pam also. That's not true because Pam's story was shared a long time ago, and Lisa is her sister. They are actual people, Kris, you nutjob, just like Julie. They also shared testimony that was very Damning about Davis and everything came out in the open 2 weeks before Davis died. I was glad thankful that Lisa shared her account of all she went through because Davis was trying to hide his sin. How she was pregnant after being raped at 15 years old and Davis dispatched Ashmore to run her and Lori off by calling them whores and sluts before the whole congregation.
Kris, you haven't even done your homework. There are plenty of people you can ask if Julie exists. You are stupid if you think we made her up, in fact you are willingly ignorant. The ntcc is a sick bunch of people, Ashmore included. They create people like you Kris. You are your own worst enemy. You create arguments and you don't stand on either side. You then argue just for the sake of arguing but there is little or no substance to anything you say.
I shouldn't have wasted this much time with you. I knew it was a hopeless cause before I even took it up. That's about all the time I have for you today Kris. You can have the last words. I feel like I've just been rummaging through a second hand clothing store.
Kris,
One thing I've noticed across the board with holiness standards is sexual misconduct. Porn, adultery, fornication just to name the major ones. Holiness gets you so uptight you end up failing and feeling like crap.
There is so little joy in those churches.
I can attest that Julie exists as a person; I knew her when she was a pre-teen at NTCC. I don't know if that's what you're looking for, or if you are insinuating that someone is impersonating her. There's no way to verify that.
This is a he said-she said scenario, so it's impossible for those not directly involved to know what really happened. Don and Ange are believers who admit their lack of objectivity and prevent any real dialog on their blog in an effort to protect Julie from criticism. Hopefully their intentions are good, but these actions diminish credibility. Propagandists are more concerned with what is effective than with what is true.
Personally, I'm ambivalent. It's tempting to believe the worst, but without any shred of evidence beyond hearsay, that would constitute faith in fallible human beings, and we've all been badly burned that way already. Heinous accusations like this are alluring, but I remember the McMartin daycare fiasco and the outlandish inventions that resulted in serious prison time for people who were innocent of those charges. It's prudent to be skeptical, and I hope no one misconstrues this as an attack on Julie, or on Don and Ange. No one should be faulted for admitting that they are unqualified to make a sound judgment because of a lack of hard evidence, especially with regard to matters this grave.
I'm also curious about why the rest of Julie's accounts regarding Ashmore haven't been published--Don and Ange haven't been shy about spreading any damaging innuendos in the past, and it would seem that now is the time to pull out all the stops if there is more dirt. Why hesitate?
ANON Mike
I remember that daycare. That was mob mentality at its worst.
The problem here is the volume of stories; from bumping into women who are cleaning their mansions to the variety of alleged criminal activity. I tend to believe it because of the con men involved. Absolute power corrupts absolutely!
I often make fun of and hate the way Muslim women are treated. They have to have 3 witnesses to the rape. Yet how many women have to come forward to open up an investigation into Bill Cosby or Mike Kekel's org?
I know there has to be a bunch of fence sitters ready to bail on this church but something is holding them back. I know Chief has alluded to this recently.
When confronted with admitting you've wasted precious years it becomes a struggle. Even after you leave there can be a period of pain, guilt and depression.
Kris,
I left NTCC because I was tired of hoping that one day that I coud become "a fired up Christian." I was tired of always feeling like I had to prove myself to people. A works righteous system will can leave someone tired and depressed because you are never doing enough.
I struggled for a few years of after leaving NTCC. I wasn't sure what sound doctrine was. I almost got caught up in the Hebrew Roots movement (Go that route if you want outward holiness).
I was finally able to find a sound church. My life has improved because I have been able to sit under sanctifying preaching.
I am married now and I will retire from the Army in 2016.
NTCC's holiness doctrine is nothing more than a means of covering over their sins. Every sin deserves God’s wrath and curse, both in this life and that which is to come. {Eph 5:6, Ps 11:6}To escape the wrath and curse of God due to us for sin, we must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, {John 3:16} trusting alone to his blood and righteousness. This faith is attended by repentance for the past {Ac 20:21} and leads to holiness in the future. Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, {Heb 10:39} whereby we receive, {John 1:12} and rest upon him alone for salvation, {Php 3:9} as he is set forth in the gospel. {Isa 33:22} Repentance to life is a saving grace, {Ac 11:18} whereby a sinner, out of a true sense of his sins, {Ac 2:37} and apprehension of the mercy of God in Christ, {Joel 2:13} does with grief and hatred of his sin turn from it to God, {Jer 31:18,19} with full purpose to strive after new obedience. {Ps 119:59}
Do you know what real holiness looks like? Read Psalm 51 and compare that to how NTCC has either played the blame game or swept everything under the rug.
ANON MIKE
Harold,
I felt like you were replaying my experience to a T. That's exactly what I went through only I've completely ditched church all together. Good luck to you in the future.
Vics comments about DNA's blog are spot on. I'll go further their blog is the TMZ /National Enquirer of blogs. I'm glad Jeff has his more even keeled blog up and running. DNA have married themselves to Julie St. Clairs far fetched tales for better or for worse. If one reads through her disjointed posts one can infer she's had sex with most of the general board etc. Indeed for most of her life men have been lining up to sample her wares. Those here know her know that she is a sweet kid, but also mentally unstable. There is no independent corroboration of her stories, so absent that, they are just stories, albeit sordid ones.
There is enough wrong with Borg without resorting to this sort of salacious gossip.
Well, I had put some friendly advice in my last post for Don and Ange to consider a redesign, and even explicitly mentioned that the layout was reminiscent of the National Enquirer and that such an image is probably not what they want to convey if they want to be taken seriously. At the last minute I removed that paragraph, but perhaps I was a bit hasty, since apparently I'm not the only one to perceive that it screams "tacky" and "unreliable." Think about it, Don and Ange; if you want your blog to be more effective a facelift is beyond overdue. The design is way to busy and hard to read and the colors are hideous. I know you want to reach as many people as possible, but most readers are a bit more sophisticated than those it looks like you are targeting. No offense; hope you take this in the spirit it's given. There are plenty of tasteful templates available online.
As for the unrevealed Ashmore allegations, is it that they're so outlandish that even you are having a difficult time reconciling them? It's hard to fathom why you would throw out a bunch of hints but refuse to divulge what you apparently believe is the truth. Inquiring minds want to know :-) .
You're a liar. When did i ever attack julie? I said i wanted to help her prove her story was real. I only asked if i could talk to her.
thanks for the friendly advice Vic.
Thank you for sharing with me(us) that you knew Julie existed. That means something to me personally because i know who u r Vic (at least from cyberspace). I know now 2 people personally (u n Don) who say she is real. Up until now i just had to take Don's word for it because i didn't know who the other people were who said they knew her. I remember learning about the salem witch hunts. I suppose ur right vic. There is not much way of knowing for sure if its true. I tend to believe it. i just wonder is there something we should b doing? What if its true n still happening n we r not doing anything to stop it.
Oh my goodness. ... Too funny.
D/A
ANON MIKE
I like your blog. I just wish the subjects were headers vs going in a row. Once a new article comes up the last one becomes old news...
Same as this one.
Thanks for the feedback (compliment) Mike and the spirit in which you gave it, we'll look into it.
ANON MIKE
I wish we were in possession of a smoking gun to prove the atrocities against the good people trapped in this org.
I do believe where there is smoke there is fire and in the case of NTCC it's like a volcano about to blow. Character is low while money, power, and prestige are what by all appearances is valued.
They clearly lie about their website and locator. They clearly lie about their intentions for money via special offerings and the like. It's an absolute fact they treat their missionaries like garbage. They treat their widows like garbage. They control relationships in a way not seen anywhere in the bible. This list could go on and on. It just happens that deductive reasoning leads me to believe the charges of sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, predatory conduct and so on.
I agree that we should question accusations when they are as serious in nature as we've read about here.
No reason to fight amongst each other though.
ANON MIKE
Kris, I hope you stick around and contribute (nicely).
If you're still into holiness but left the NTCC I'm good with that.
As far as Julie goes let's leave that one alone. Fights will only come from that.
Please let me know why you left the NTCC. Were you a preacher?
Thanks
Vic said, Concerning DnA's blog..."Think about it, Don and Ange; if you want your blog to be more effective a facelift is beyond overdue. The design is way to busy and hard to read and the colors are hideous."
I felt compelled to chime in also on this subject! Don, you're good people, but this is the reason that I have never posted on your blog. I just find it very difficult to read because of all the color commotion going on! My wife is the one that keeps me informed of what's happening there. And don't let Kris get-cha down! ;-)
That last post was me!
mdr
DnA said..."Kris has a history on the blogs of disrupting, and being double minded."
Here's one for all of you conspiracy theorist out there! I seemingly remember that the last time things started vamp-in up on this blog here come Kris outta nowhere land stirring things up and diverting the subject matter to himself! Could it be that Kris Moore is a plant and that he's really working with Kekel to be a diversion on this blog!?! The reason I say is because in both instances that he came on here he has mentioned talking to Kekel on the phone in as many days!
I think Kris Moore is a "Kooky plant" that needs to go find a Priest, jump in his sandbox, and start hurling scriptures back and forth!
Please leave us alone, you Kook!
Sorry you didn't appreciate my advice, DnA; no need to be so butt hurt about it over on your blog. You tolerate dissent about as well as RW did, and it was always his way or the highway. So I'm replying here, where I won't be censored. You say it's OK to have a difference of opinion, but you aren't acting like you believe that.
If you like trailer trash moderne, that's your American right and you should by all means retain that motif. I was only making what I thought was a constructive suggestion that would help you achieve what you claim to want. Forgive me for not posting you personally about it; I considered doing that some time ago. But it came up here and I just blurted it out. What can I say; sometimes I create awkward situations without meaning to. It's no shame that you're not design professionals; you did what you could and that's commendable. But do you really believe there's no room for improvement? I wasn't trying to be snarky. Lighten up.
Since you do have absolute faith in every detail Julie shares, I'm sure you'll be capitalizing on the recent publicity and rolling out the Ashmore installment without delay. The National Enquirer would never sit on "news" that hot, even if it did cause them to lose yet another lawsuit.
Ok. Best wishes to all of you.
To Vic,Kris and all the others that question Julie's credibility,
I understand how it is difficult for someone who has NOT been a victim of rape and incest to find what she has said as "not credible". I myself, am a woman. I have been a victim of both rape and incest. I am the first to question all allegations of rape and incest. I know how life altering such allegations can be to the wrongfully accused. That being said, I will have to side with what Julie speaks.
I am a registered nurse with a BSN and have been a rape/domestic violence hotline worker. I took a three month intensive course on the subject, not to mention having lived it.
Vic you say that you question Julie's credibility, do you question Ken Macpherson's? Do you question all the other women's testimonies too? Is Ken's more credible because a man has "more to loose with such allegations" and he put is photo on the blog also?
Rape and incest is hideous. I wasn't sure of Julie's credibility UNTIL I heard her background as a disabled women, an incest survivor, low education, arranged marriage etc. I also took into account the history of the folks she accused. I also took into account the witnesses testimony.
She is the CLASSIC person to victimize. Incest victim are prime targets. They are already groomed. A predator will home in on them.
Please folks, unless you have lived or studied about rape or incest of BOTH men and women don't sit in judgment of the accuser. PLEASE listen to the victim first and then- IMMEDIATELY REPORT it to POLICE!!! Don't him haw around trying to figure out if it is truthful or not, JUST REPORT IT TO POLICE!!! Let the law investigate the accusations!
By the way, I was also sexually assaulted by one of the Bible School Students in Graham. I somehow thought it had to be my fault, it wasn't. I didn't report it because I was "groomed" from an early age to think I was always to blame for being victimized.
J. E.- I am NOT Julie. I refuse to put my whole name in because I REFUSE to have my good name dragged through the mud!!!
Vic, if you don't mind, could you e-mail me sometime? I think you are very intelligent. I wonder if you have ever considered writing for a living. Moorekk1@gmail.com is my address. I understand if you r too busy but i m just wondering what to do about all of this n obviously this is not the place for the likes of me. Im not the sharpest tool in the shed but i think im not welcome by some people here. Im not a plant. I didn't come here to fight. I talked to rev kekel because he is one of the ones still living and being accused of things. Anyways, best wishes to all of you. I wish you no harm.
Ma'am, would you mind e-mailing me sometime? moorekk1@gmail.com
Kris wants this woman to emai him? What for? So he can tell her hw doesn't believe her?
Julie is real. Julie has been abused. I'll be back online tomorrow. There are people other than Don and Angie who've provided testimony supporting the information Julie has stated.
Chief
To the Kris Moore's and others who are trying to find stable ground while in or after NTCC,
You need to shed all of what NTCC has taught you. To do so, I highly suggest ONLY reading and living the words of Jesus found in the bible for many months. Study only what Christ said. He is the Son of God and what Paul, Peter, James and all the rest have to say mean nothing without the words and context of Christ. ONLY CHRIST IS THE FOUNDATION which to build your faith upon.
I also feel that those like Kris that are having such a hard time shedding the bondage of NTCC need to go to SECULAR counseling/therapy. I say secular because one need to shed all bondage to RELIGION first. There are many counselors that charge based on your income. You need to learn to be critical of what you have been taught in NTCC.
Start your study with Mark 12:28-31. It reads- One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him "of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Isreal: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul with all your mind and all your strength. The second is this, love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these".
You have to learn to love YOURSELF before you love anyone else. You have to learn to forgive yourself before you can forgive others.(Forgiving is not the same as forgetting. Forgiving is no longer being in mental bondage to what others have done to us.)
The GREATEST commandment is LOVE- love in it's purest form. That is the Love Christ has for YOU! We all are WORTHY of such love. We need to live in love.
Please don't misunderstand me. Love is also accountability. We have to be accountable for all our wrongs. Love covers a multitude of sin but we are still accountable to the law of the land and to others for the wrongs we have done.
Sorry Kekal, Ashmoore, St. Clair's and all the pastors that have physically or mentally abused individuals, you are still are legally accountable to those folks and accountable to the law of the land.
Joan B.
I will repeat what I already said: "No one should be faulted for admitting that they are unqualified to make a sound judgment because of a lack of hard evidence, especially with regard to matters this grave."
I was on a jury that found a guy guilty of some pederasty charges which had zero evidence beyond hearsay. My conscience was affected, and I was relieved later that we were reversed on appeal. Was he guilty? I don't know, but there was certainly reasonable doubt. When allegations like these are broached, emotion takes over; it happened in the jury room and I vowed afterward that I wasn't going succumb again. If I don't feel qualified to form a valid opinion based on the evidence at hand, I don't form one. I didn't say Julie is a liar, because I don't know, and neither have I said that everything happened like she said either, because I don't know. That goes for Ken too--I don't know. Neither do you, so get off the high horse.
Julie isn't some litmus test that you can use to decide whether someone is "in" or not; how NTCC is that? Her account may be true, but you are going to have to go out on that limb by yourself, because it is an act of faith (which is by definition impervious to reason). It takes tremendous courage to relate these accounts, and one of the reasons for that is that one has to face the possibility that doubts will arise. Of course they will, and they should, no matter who is coming forward.
You know, I didn't go public with the groping allegations because of this very reason--they were unsubstantiated hearsay. It was enough for me that I knew it was true; I didn't feel any compulsion to be validated by whether others believed it or not. But you didn't care; you were salivating over that chunk of dirt and tattled it out there anyway. So I know that's how you roll; you don't need anything but a whiff of scandal and you're ready to treat it as gospel. You got email purportedly from Julie's brother John. Did you verify its origin? No, you just threw it out there with a statement that "since he didn't deny it, it must be true." I'm just not comfortable with that and think it's foolish. Anyone could have sent that. But you are more interested in trashing NTCC, even if you have to resort to questionable tactics. Did you learn from Machiavelli via RWD that the ends justify the means?
So how about that Ashmore dirt? Why are you holding back? That in itself is suspicious, given your eagerness to spread any and all negative reports you hear, regardless of whether they can be substantiated. Why the reticence? I thought you were supporting Julie? Are you doubting her now yourselves? Actions speak louder than words.
Vic and everyone else that is upset about Julie,
I hope no one takes this as a personal attack it is not meant to be. I understand why many are cautious of accusing anyone of the things Julie said. Accusations of rape, incest or sexual abuse without video tape or DNA evidence will many times leave one wondering if the accusations are true. The wrongfully accused will have their life turned into turmoil. I have been a victim and yet I am VERY slow to let my mind accuse someone of such a hideous crime.
At the same time, please let's respect the fact that IF what she said were true, her life path has been altered in ways that I pray you will never understand.
We are all on the same mission. We are here to expose NTCC for what it truly is. The way leadership is set up, victims of ANY TYPE of crime have little to no recourse. We were conditioned to believe that you can't go to the police because WHATEVER the pastor or leadership says or does-it's of God. This makes NTCC ripe for abuse- especially for the women and children.
Please, in that some may not believe Julie and some may believe Julie. No matter what you believe about her accusations, let's respect each other's opinion.
There is a National Sexual Assault Telephone Hotline- (800)656-HOPE(4673). They also have a 24/7 help online visit- online.rainn.org The website is https://www.rainn.org To the Julies, Kens, and all the others that have been abused in the past or at this time and also to the loved one's of the victims, there are resources on the site to help you heal the wounds.
Again, if someone comes to you saying they were raped or sexually assaulted- believe them. Call the police immediately. Do not have them shower or bathe prior to them going to the emergency room. Bathing is one of the first things many want to do. It can wash away DNA evidence. Most emergency rooms have a nurse or physician on call or available to do a Forensic Sexual Assault Exam. If they won't go the E.R. please check out WWW.RAINN.ORG It's the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. Also, it's not your job to decide if an attack has occurred, it's the police's job.
Thanks everyone for listening,
J.E.
I'm emphatic, but definitely not upset. I'm also not naive about things that go on, and don't find it in the least implausible that Julie is the victim of serial abuse lasting for years. There are three possibilities: that Julie fabricated the whole thing, that she's 100% accurate, or that what she has reported is a mixture of fact and fiction. I have no way of divining which is the case, so I leave it to those who are blessed with the gift of omniscience. While you're at it, could you tell me where I put that pair of glasses I lost? A few stock tips or lottery numbers would be helpful too. And where is Jimmy Hoffa, anyway?
Vic,
Jimmy's sleeping with the fishes. Chief will have to help you with the stock tips.
J.E.
I also feel that those like Kris that are having such a hard time shedding the bondage of NTCC need to go to SECULAR counseling/therapy. I say secular because one need to shed all bondage to RELIGION first. -Joan B.
I have to disagree with you there. Jesus didn't tell Nicodemus to go and find a therapist.
Kris,
I won't be contacting you. There are many sources on the internet regarding sexual abuse in NTCC.
I suggest going to The Mountain New-WA. http://themountainnewswa.net On the right side of the web page you will find a small search box. Type in "Former NTCC Church Worker Convicted on Child Rape Charges". Read about Michael Fontenot. Make sure you read all the comments.
If you want to really do some investigating you can pull his court records.
It is morally and spiritually wrong for any church to allow a known sexual predator to attend meetings. If he or she has repented then the pastor can go visit that person to fellowship and teach him or her.
It is the pastors duty to protect the flock. You don't let the fox into the hen house. That is how a healthy church handles such a situation.
J.E.
No. To try to understand things better.
I understand the need for criminals to pay their debts to society. What does it say about us when we decide that certain sinners are permanently no longer welcome at the Lord's Table?
How would you like to be excluded from fellowship based on everything you have done in thought, word and deed?
I have no problem with being wise and taking precautions, but giving people a lifetime ban from any assembling with the saints is horrible.
Maybe your definition of church is different than mine.
The members of these churches (universal) are saints by calling, visibly manifesting and evidencing (in and by their profession and walking) their obedience unto that call of Christ; and do willingly consent to walk together, according to the appointment of Christ; giving up themselves to the Lord, and one to another, by the will of God, in professed subjection to the ordinances of the Gospel.
(Romans. 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; Acts 2:41, 42; Acts 5:13, 14; 2 Corinthians 9:13)
ANON MIKE
I'll let you invite the predators over for thanksgiving. As for me NTCC will not be coming over.
:-)
ANON Mike,
One thing that may very well be a smoking gun is their relationship management and marriage managements. I've met girls as young as 15 married to older guys (20's) and that to me is enough to believe many things are sexually perverse throughout the org.
I have no trouble believing Julie. Over the years I wouldn't fault her if her memories brought more people in that should have. It's common among victims to think more happened than actually did. That's why you investigate. For now though, I take her at her word.
Just saying all, lets not get hung up on anything other than exposing and helping one another. I don't want to lose good contributors.
Mike
Good afternoon all,
Just an idea but the average new person coming to this site as well as overall unique hits is up heavily. Maybe all of this anger is folks from the dark side coming here to start trouble. The last two days have been far to contentious to be an accident.
Just saying
Agreed, I took a peak at Ashmore's video counts on youtube and they too are going up by significant percentages per day. I tend to think that's the curiosity of the pastors stuck in the borg that found out he was posting them.
It would be funny if Youtube was the undoing of NTCC but an accessory to starting a new Cult with Ashmore.
Stinkin' Youtube... I love when the Hyena's eat the Zebra.
Hyena's... Are you talking about MK or Ashmore
Hello everyone. I've been busy but now I have an opportunity to chime in on some of the stuff that's been written recently. Now, about Julie...
The fact is, we don't know for certain what is true or what isn't true concerning anything we read on any of these blogs. I do know about my own experiences while in the NTCC and I do my best to write facts not fiction. If I made mention of my own personal experiences than to me I've written facts and I won't back up or retract any of it. I've talked to different people who post on this blog and I consider what some of them have written or what they've told me also to be fact. I know the depths of the NTCC leadership's degeneracy because I experienced it first hand and I've also questioned some of the NTCC leaders about certain things and found their answers to be deliberately vague, misleading and insulting.
I've read thousands of comments on these blogs and I've read a great deal about Julie. What has been reported about Julie is quite extensive. In my opinion, overly extensive. I've discussed this with Don and told him that I thought too much was posted about Julie and we strongly disagreed with each other.
Having said that I don't put ANYTHING past the NTCC leadership. I've also read the statements which have "supposedly" been written by people with first hand knowledge about Julie's circumstances and some of her testimonies have been verified by the witnesses assuming these witnesses are even real. What I've concluded is that where there is smoke, there is fire, and I'm convinced that's the case where Julie is concerned. Her dad was a creep and there are plenty of people who attest to that as fact so I don't doubt that he has sex with his own daughter, namely Julie. There have been numerous reports that Julie's dad was a child molester so again, I don't doubt that Ralph St Clair had sex, rape or whatever you want to call it with Julie.
There have also been numerous reports that RWD messed around with women other than his wife and these reports have been given by more than one women and specifics were included. There have been at least 5 reports that Kekel touched or slapped women on the butt while they were cleaning his house. Not just one or two people but at least 5 and some where testimonies made by husbands of the wifes who claimed they were victimized who told their husbands about it.
So here is what I believe to be fact. Davis messed with other women. Kekel has at least tried to mess with other women and I believe he succeeded with Julie (based on, not only what she, but at least two other witnesses have written) at a minimum and probably more than just her. He wouldn't keep touching the butts of women if he didn't have some success in the past with that approach. I believe that because I know people. Julies dad was a straight up pervert who's been caught at his perversion. There have been enough witnesses in support of these claims to convince me.
So in the middle you have Julie. I absolutely believe Julie has been violated by people in the NTCC. I don't doubt that for one second. The only thing I would have done differently than DnA (regarding Julie) would have been to significantly limit the volume of abuse claims made and mentioned on the blog. I would have chosen maybe one or two accounts supported by the most number of credible witnesses who I could actually talk to and ask questions of and gone from there.
Now about Kris. In the past, he has been a troll and that is a fact, not fiction. He has a history of getting off topic, (way off topic) while showing significant confusion concerning his own religious beliefs and direction. This is also a fact. At times when Kris was around, we've had good productive threads going and Kris made a complete mess of much that was written. This is also fact.
Now having said all that I don't have any personal beef with Kris but I don't spend my time typing ten's of thousands of words on this blog just to watch it get hijacked and made a mess of. Additionally Kris, (assuming it is actually Kris) has really (in times past) come across as rather odd (or out there) to say the least and that's not how I want readers to associate this blog, (as odd or out there). I'm not out there. I have all my marbles; at least I did the last time I checked.
Now to the holiness business. I won't mix words concerning my feelings about the NTCC brand of quote, "holiness". It stinks and it can't be supported by the bible. The NTCC's brand of holiness has almost exclusively to do with outward appearance; at least it has for decades. It also has to do with suppression of womens rights (where the NTCC is concerned).
If Kris is into "holiness", that's his business but if he brings it on this blog I'm going to refute it whole heartedly and prove it to be non biblical based on the very scriptures the NTCC uses to support that nonsense. Women not being permitted to work is nonsense and keepers at home doesn't mean that at all but rather it means to be a good house keeper. I've proved this over and over.
Women not wearing that which pertaineth unto man does not mean that a woman can't wear pants. The word "man" in that verse means strong man, warrior (emphasizing strength or ability to fight) and "wear that which pertaineth" is one word and it means armour or weapon. This can be logically concluded because not only does Strongs list "armour or weapon or armour bearer" it wouldn't mean anything but due to the "man" meaning specifically a "strong man" fit for battle. So properly interpreted, that portion of scripture would logically mean, that a woman shouldn't wear the weapons or armour worn by a "strong" man or specifically a man fit for battle. It don't have jack to do with a woman not being permitted to wear pants for crying out loud which didn't exist when that scripture was written anyway because at that time both men and women wore a dress like wrap around garment. And if you want to go down the modesty road, I've seen womens pants a whole lot more modest than some of the dresses that Tanya Kekel wears. Checkmate.
So the NTCC and a bunch of other holiness groups have that all wrong where holiness is concerned, along with a whole bunch of other garbage they teach which has nothing to do with salvation by grace or what Jesus came here preaching.
So to make a long story short, I'm not a big fan of Kris' approach and I don't advocate that holiness mumbo jumbo that the NTCC teaches and I make no apologies for it.
So there you have it. Kris is welcome here but I don't want good threads to get hijacked by a bunch of nonsense and I'm not much into censorship but I will put a stop to it if if gets too far out of hand.
I'm not trying to hurt your feeling Kris but you do have a habit of doing exactly what Don said you do. Don and I don't always agree on things and sometimes we strongly disagree, but in this case, Don is spot on where Kris is concerned. I know that because we've been down this road before and I've learned from experience.
"I don't want to lose good contributors."
Do you really believe that simply having more anti-NTCC postings on the internet will cause the destruction of NTCC?
There are plenty of websites that are critical of Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, etc. and those institutions are still busy.
"I'll let you invite the predators over for thanksgiving. As for me NTCC will not be coming over."
Fine. Are you thinking of what you would say to an NTCCer whom you met face to face? What would you do if they showed up at your door during one of their blitzes?
I had encounters with a NTCCer and someone from Assembly of Prayer and I really believe that I could have been much more graceful in both instances.
NTCC does provide a certain amount of security for people. It is what they know and they do feel a certain level amount of comfort in a familiar environment.
It is easy for an NTCCer to read a blog post and see only anger, resentment and ridicule towards them. The internet is a means of quickly sharing information, but there is no substitute for human interaction.
Disagreement on a blog like this is good. It makes us sound less like the Borg.
Now see, there is a perfect example of what I was talking about. Whoever posted as proverbs totally got off track. It's almost like whoever wrote that deliberately got off track and I don't put it past someone to intentionally publish is bunch of irrelevant stuff just to dilute and or overshadow the good relevant stuff. Hey proverbs, you just bounced all over the place with your comment and you never really made a point. Kris is notorious for doing that stuff and it wouldn't surprise me if proverbs is Kris. Just saying.
Anonymous Proverbs said...
Do you really believe that simply having more anti-NTCC postings on the internet will cause the destruction of NTCC?
No, I do not believe that, but some sort of critical mass is happening. This site averaged about 80 views a day and it has doubled, more than doubled since Ashmore's departure.
1. You have the die hard holiness folks with Denis as an option.
2. You have perhaps the most revered preacher in the borg breaking off and starting what looks to be a more positive church but most likely is still a pyramid scheme.
3. It's becoming more and more apparent that Kekel is not a leader by any stretch of the imagination. Not a good preacher, not a good example, broke all of Davis commandments. Guy is in over his head.
4. NTCC no longer covers a niche in the cultish religion market. It's not holiness. It's not positive. It's just an angry money grubbing experience.
Anonymous said...
NTCC no longer covers a niche in the cultish religion market. It's not holiness. It's not positive. It's just an angry money grubbing experience.
Chief said...
My sentiments exactly. The NTCC is just existing to fill the pockets of the Kekels. What other purpose does it serve? It certainly ain't about "doing unto others as you'd have them do unto you". It certainly doesn't have anything to do with taking care of the fatherless or widow. It's definitely not about healing now that Ashmore is gone, LOL. Wasn't when he was in the NTCC either. That dude couldn't heal the torn wing of a butterfly with a role of duck tape.
The NTCC just exists to get your money, so give up the pledges, offerings, special offerings and tithes. That will surely get you blessed just like so many other NTCCers running around in broke down cars, shopping in second hand stores and living in dumps or renting one of Davis' houses so Kekel can get even more of your money.
Later.
What happened, did Chief run everyone off?
ANON MIKE,
Not sure... I think "Kris" pissed some people off and they just need to cool off.
This is typical of a Kris visitation! The Kook messes it all up!
After observing the Ashmore youtube "sensational video's" it is my estimation that Jimmy hasn't done anything to help his image, But quite the contrary!
I see nothing being accomplished from his video's and what's more the guy that is posting along side of him really comes off "KOOKY"! In one of the video"s the poor fella looks like he hasn't brushed his teeth in quite some time. and what's up with all the head bobbing going on in the videos?
If I was looking for a church, and I'm not, but if I was, I wouldn't be compelled to go to theirs after watching those video's.
Kekel has all the ammo he needs to prove his point about Jimmy! All Kekel has to do is direct people to those videos and they will agree with him...Jimmy's a "Charismatic KOOK"
Just saying!
ANON MIKE,
I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. I believe the videos are to remind NTCC'ers who the real teacher, preacher, missionary, "Healer", is. No one in the NTCC can hold a candle to him in terms of this.
I believe they are a way to lure away NTCC'ers not necessarily get new people off the street.
Could be wrong though but I'm glad I'm out!
Indeed thats a shame. The truth is, they are all kooks, Kekel included. I don't know what in the world Ashmore is trying to accomplish. It can't be much. Either that or he's so far gone, he can't tell normal from abnormal. Just to think, we were all part of that mess. I was hoping Ashmore's departure would have a positive effect but it may very well have the opposite.
The only thing NTCCers need to recognize is that for years Ashmore has been one of the prime time leaders in the NTCC and I've been saying he's kooky all along. So who put him in charge from the start? Davis? Obviously, and with that being the case, any stable minded individual would have to question every and anyone who Davis placed in positions of authority, certainly including Kekel. Olson is a kook also. Believe me. Kekel said Denis was way out there so what does that tell you? Was and is the NTCC full of leaders who are nut jobs? From my experiences I would give that a resounding YES!!!
So I wonder how many NTCC people really think that the NTCC leadership is suited for the task of leading them to heaven? Well if you think so, you have to be as kooky as they are. There is no way I'd trust "ANY" of Davis' leadership choices. Not one and certainly not Kekel and definitely not Olson. Johnson may be good at fixing up classic cars and building houses and poop ponds but that doesn't mean he should be the leader of anyone. Kinson is a kook also. Just not as kooky. I know. I remember how mad he got when I questioned Davis' judgment. Kinson looked like he was going to blow a gasket.
I had a problem with pastor Mayers and it seemed that everyone in charge agreed that Mayers had some serious issues but as soon as I suggested that Davis was the one who allowed him to remain a pastor, Kinson about had a fit.
Kinson had come to Columbus Ga, right after the split to do damage control and make sure that there weren't any Denis loyalist left down here. Denis tried to get me to go with him but I refused. It's not that I thought he was wrong for leaving. I knew he was an abusive blow hard prick also so I certainly wasn't going to follow him. Well Mayers had tried to get me kicked out of the NTCC so I figured with Kinson being here, that was a good chance to file yet another grievance against Mayers. Well it was all going good until I implicated Davis, and Kinson bout blew a gasket. Haha.
Well Kinson, guess who placed Mayers, Denis and Ashomore in charge of anything? The bad judgment dude who's butt you've been kissing for decades; Old Dastardly Davis. Hahaha. Blow a gasket on that one you prick. And he made the wrong choice with you and Kekel also because you guys are the compromising kings.
Chief
Well, the Ashmore videos are an improvement from the hellfire and brimstone, but the other guy does seem way out there. Check out his "end is near" video. I guess we're all supposed to fret about being "left behind" and having to endure the tribulation period.
I'm not subscribing to the Torture God hypothesis. It doesn't make any sense that a deity would create a race of billions only to burn the vast majority of them in an eternal lake of fire. Really? Would that not constitute a colossal failure on his part? But fundamentalist nutjobs love using that fear to motivate people to do their bidding. Not buying it anymore; any God acting like that needs to be fired.
ANON MIKE
There are failures all around the globe with a huge majority of them residing in the middle east.
Chief,
I wasn't there for the split, I left in 2000 or so. I was never a pastor and only attended one conference. Never even heard of Denis.
Is there any solid info already on your site concerning the history of this?
Thanks,
Mike
Chief said..."I had a problem with pastor Mayers and it seemed that everyone in charge agreed that Mayers had some serious issues but as soon as I suggested that Davis was the one who allowed him to remain a pastor, Kinson about had a fit."
Chief, this happened to me!
Not too long after Denis left the borg, taking half of the NTCC with him, there was the Phoenix "ralley conference".
After Davis listened to all of the stories about Denis' tyrannical reign He got up and tried to "act" like that he had no idea what Denis was doing! Yeah, right!!
Later on in the conference, Davis tried to portray that he knew the whole time what Denis was up too.
He bragged, saying, "You've got to keep your friends close, but your enemies closer!"
Well, I really began questioning Davis' leadership at that point because He's the one that put Denis in the position to "terrorize" the churches!
Shortly after the "Phoenix farce" I had told some Pastors that Davis was the one that molded Denis into what he was! One of the Pastors called Olson on me and told him what I had been saying.
Well, I was a marked man at that point, Cause you didn't question the "Mighty Davis Leadership!"
He called me on the carpet in the next conference up in Graham WA and ask me what I had been saying.
I told him that it was true and then I called him on the carpet about promoting an Adulterer, (Kinson) to a leadership position!
Davis didn't like me anymore after that! Oh well!
It's good to be FREE from that whole mess!
mdr
When people say Denis Terrorized the churches what does that mean?
Half of NTCC was lost to HOP?
Anon, may I suggest to you that you go back and read this blog and a lot of your questions will be answered!
mdr
MDR, don't they love to ambush you and jack you up like that? I once commented in passing to Fonteneau (we worked at the same place) that the building crew/office workers getting paid in cash under the table would likely not pass IRS muster. Not long after, DiFrancesco approached me in the fellowship hall and told me RW wanted to talk to me in the office. So I went over and found the general board assembled. I wasn't invited to sit down. RW told me that he'd heard what I said and informed me that they had accountants and lawyers to make sure they did things right. So I apologized and told him I didn't mean to insinuate that there was any impropriety. Suddenly a giant pair of balls appeared from nowhere between my legs, and I asked him whether the building fund money (about $10K) we had raised in Fairbanks would be returned to that work, since Doug and Janet Allen had moved up and reopened it. He looked really pissed off but maintained his composure and told me it would, "when the time is right." Like you, I was a marked man for daring to bring up an uncomfortable topic, especially in front of others. I later confirmed with Doug that he never ever heard about any building fund for Fairbanks. I'm sure it bought some nice furniture or an awesome guitar or something for one of the elites. BTW, it wasn't long after that that they started furnishing W-2s to the workers, so I guess their "lawyers and accountants" changed their minds about what was appropriate.
MDR, this particular topic or somewhere else on this site?
Vic,
That is an awesome story!!! I like it when people have to comply with the laws like the rest of us.
Did you have to take it from all the rest of the board members during the day/week? I know they loved to gang up on people and flex their general board muscle.
Mike asked...
Is there any solid info already on your site concerning the history of this?
Chief said...
Yes there is. When I get a chance I'll find it and attach a link so you can get to it. I don't even remember the title right now.
Hey Mike, click the above link called the split to learn more about the split.
Chief
Mike, May I suggest that you go back to the beginning of this blog and just start reading! You'll be amazed at what is shared here! Just spend about two weeks reading and then come back with your thoughts!
mdr
Vic,
That is awesome! I could see the whole scenario as you described it in your post.
Davis' leadership was a FARCE!! He was nothing more than a THUG!!!
mdr
Yeah, he was leaning back looking cool as a cucumber, and everyone else was just staring at me like a poor condemned slob about to be marched to the gallows. But he clouded up quick when I mentioned the ten grand. I'd like to have been a fly on the wall to hear the discussion that ensued once I left the room.
Anon, the ganging on happened later, once they started actively running me off. Curry was the last lackey they trotted out to blast me; after his bloviating "message" of condemnation, I hung around until RW was leaving the church and told him "after tonight, I'm out of here." I was shaking in my boots too, but a giant wave of euphoria swept over me and I knew beyond doubt I'd made the right decision, and subsequent events have vindicated that impression in spades. I was light as a feather and erupted with spontaneous joyful laughter on the drive home. The only regret I have is that it didn't happen years earlier.
I can relate with that Vic. One thing I regret was not giving them a more thorough piece of my mind than I did. My wife and I certainly expressed our views at the time of departure but we should have given it to them a whole lot better. Whatever. It was good to leave and it all worked out in the end for both of us anyway. The success we've had since we left the NTCC has completely exceeded all imaginable expectations.
Of course we've all visited these accounts in the past but I really think it's still good for people to read who may not have seen these blogs previously.
Chief, I'm always happy to recount the BS they subjected us to. It makes me happy to broadcast the truth about these scoundrels, and I get a little bit of joy every time I do it. Thanks for the awesome soapbox.
ANON MIKE,
The split fascinates me. I would have never seen it coming when I left in 2000. It seemed like an outwardly solid organization. I didn't see the drama pastors, helpers and the like had to deal with.
I'm interested in Reverend Olson's wife seeming to get upset at the spin machine of Davis and Olson. I wonder if she's itching to leave.
I recently saw a schedule of what the HOP is doing on a weekly basis and it's brutal. 7 days a week if the info is correct. That org will burn itself out.
Anyway thanks for the info. Truly fascinating...
You know I'm not sure they will burn themselves out. Basically we were 7 days a week also. Especially at Mayers church in Atlanta. That dude always had something going on. It certainly wasn't uncommon for us to have some kind of meeting or door to door or something on the days when we didn't have church. It didn't happen all the time but it did happen. That guy wanted to rule the world and he thought he was going to it seemed sometimes.
Yeah, Denis is brutal. Glad I'm not a part of that mess.
Chief
These orgs don't burn themselves out; they burn their people out. But they don't care; they just go trap some more souls.They have such an emphasis on "soul winning" not because they care a fig about souls, because they know that the people brainwashed enough to knock on a stranger's door for them will likely leave, since most people do. They just have to make sure they have enough new suckers in the incubator to keep their dream$ (which are nightmares for others) in operation.
Vic said..."These orgs don't burn themselves out; they burn their people out. But they don't care; they just go trap some more souls."
So true Vic. This is a Cult tactic...Keep the people so busy and worn out both mentally and physically that you can control them and get them to do pretty much anything that you want them too.
Both Davis and Denis loved to read about Jim Jones and his tactics. I know this for a fact because both of them referenced him in my presence while teaching! Denis has his book and has memorized it! He told me that years ago. NTCC and HOP are Cult Organizations! Nothing more, nothing less!
In the words of R W Davis himself "If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then guess what...!"
mdr
And that's the extent of it. It's a revolving door. You lose some but it doesn't matter if you keep winning some. It all works out as long as you win more than you lose. It's simply a money pyramid game. All the money goes to the top. Kekel knows he ain't right and Davis knew he wasn't either, (according to NTCC standards).
Trust me, it was never about holiness or salvation (at least not with them). I couldn't be when you know you're not practicing what you're preaching. Davis knew he wasn't and Kekel certainly knew he wasn't living what Davis was preaching. So if it's not about NTCC holiness and it's not about salvation than it can only be about one thing. A business geared toward the pursuit of wealth.
Chief said..."It's simply a money pyramid game!"
TARGET! TARGET! Cease Fire! NOTHING MORE! NOTHING LESS!
And we were the SUCKERS caught up in it! I'll bet-cha Davis used to laugh when reading his bank statements and his multi-million dollar portfolios!
I remember being at the Schmekels house one holiday and he was sitting back like a fat cat bragging how that Davis had taught him the ways of investments and such...It was disgusting listening to him blather on.
mdr
what did he say about investing?
Ask Jimmy Ashmore! ;-)
mdr
Anon asked...
What did he say about investing?
Chief responded...
He always talked about investing but it was a ponzi scheme. Sure he taught investing but he knew, (the whole time he was teaching) that he'd drain you of every dime he could and you'd never be able to invest. That was the scheme. Get you pumped up about the thought of investing when you never would accumulate the money to do it; certainly not as long as you were in HIS organization.
When it's forbidden that you take a job that requires you to work on weekends or evenings, non-biblically forbidden that your wife work, (which in my case has an advanced college degree and much significant work experience), required to pay tithes on everything they can dream up like tax returns which you already paid tithes on because you paid on your gross which is bologna anyway, constantly giving in as many offerings as they'll dare take up, which on some occasions was 2 during each service, pledges, revival offerings on revivals that lasted every day while they were in session, camp ground pledges, bogus world missions pledges, pledges for stuff like church pews, lights, church signs, carpet and the list goes on.
So you tell me how you were supposed to invest, WHAT???? What was left?? Man, in the NTCC you'd been lucky to have enough to pay the rent or drive a decent car for crying out loud. Invest my white butt.
It was a scheme and Davis knew it and so does Kekel SchMekel. It's a scheme plain and simple and at the same time they'd promise the blessings of the Lord on you year after year, when the whole time you'd just become more financially unstable. It wasn't till I left the NTCC and stopped paying them con artist tithe and giving in all them stupid offerings and pledges that I started making SERIOUS ground from a financial standpoint.
So their promises were hollow. I'll make a promise to you and I can find plenty of scriptures in the bible to back up my promise. Stop giving other people like the NTCC your money, work hard, you and your wife agree for her to work like Proverbs 31 says she should and then really watch God bless you and watch your money grow fast. You want to be financially blessed fast. Take the best job you can whether you have to work nights, church nights, weekends, and take care of your family and stop being worse than an infidel and watch your money grow.
Chief
Chief, love the last paragraph, I hope others follow your advice.
Thanks. It's the truth. See, the NTCC leaders have been brain scrambling their people since the beginning. They tell them, that if they give to the New Testament Christian Church, (as unto the Lord) they'll be sure to get financially blessed. But then, when the people remain essentially broke, the NTCC leadership says that there must be sin in their life and God can't bless them.
So not only do they get your money, they guilt trip you in the process making you feel like you've done something wrong because you remain BROKE. Wow!!!! What a scam. There is no winning that game if you are anyone but the Kekel's and maybe select few trustees. That's it.
It's a trick and that's why so, so, so many, many, many of us categorically report being FAR, FAR, FAR better off financially now, than we were while we were in the New Testament Christian Church. And here is the funniest part. They also told us if we didn't pay our tithe, and if we left the NTCC, we'd be broke and destitute. So on both occasions the NTCC leadership has been PROVEN to be DEAD WRONG!!!!
Then you know what they'll tell you to explain away what I just wrote? That we are being provided for by the Devil and the Devil is giving us money in exchange for our souls.
So here is the next trick and listen to this one. When one of the NTCC leaders has money, like Kekel or Davis, then they say that "they" have money because they do God's will and God has blessed them. But again, they'll say people in the NTCC who don't have money are broke, because they aren't doing Gods will. And again, they will say the Devil has cursed us with money, who have left the NTCC. Well here is the straight up reality and it has little or nothing to do with God or the Devil. The NTCC leaders who have money, do so, because everyone in the church is giving it to them. The majority of people in the NTCC who don't have money are broke, because they are giving their money away to the people, (like Kekel) who already have money.
They have an answer for everything but none of it can be proven because it's always their superstitious beliefs that they expect you to bite off on hook, line and sinker. Well here is my take, and is not superstitious. It's straight logic and fact. Work, don't give your money to other people, don't do stupid stuff with the money you make, and you'll have money.
I know for a fact that the overwhelming majority of people who have left the NTCC are now financially solid as a ROCK! And in some cases even quite wealthy in a very short time after leaving the NTCC.
The NTCC leadership is absolutely tricking their people into living at or below the poverty level and feeling guilty in the process.
Chief
I am glad this blog is still here, I left over 3 years ago and have never regretted my decision. People that stay in this cult are just ignoring what they know to be true, ignoring their inner voice, the voice we all have or had.
I used to attend RW's sham "Advanced School of Theology." Money was almost all he talked about. One time he was showing us how we should stick our money in Savings Bonds. He was doing the math on how much we would end up with investing $25/week. He made a decimal placement error in the calculations and had everyone thinking they'd be an order of magnitude richer than reality would dictate. It was like "stick $25/week in low-yielding government savings bonds and you'll be a millionaire in 20 years." Not by a longshot, Rodger.
The textbook for AST was "The Law of Success" by Napoleon Hill. Lots of good advice for secular prosperity, but Napopleon Hill was an occultist who believed in the Ascended Masters, evolved humans who have lived thousands of years and communicate via mental telepathy and can psychicly project themselves out of their bodies. Yeah, that was some really advanced theology, all right, especially for a "holiness" institution.
He did tell us the real secret though. It's OPM--"Other Peoples' Money." There he was telling us to our faces that the secret to his own wealth was the money he'd extracted by various means from other people (including us). From tithes, to dorm rent, to tuition, to "love offerings," to the tablespoon of salsa that they sold in the "fellowship" hall for 75 cents--all of it was designed to cause OPM to flow up the pyramid. Some people are willing to be users and abusers, and they prosper in NTCC. The rest go broke.
ANON MIKE,
Good morning all, happy Easter!!!
I'm having an awesome ham dinner today.
All you NTCC'ers can enjoy your 2 services, soul winning, praying and giving everything to a guy who's never had to do anywhere near the work you all have done.
They still don't have it as bad as HOP, that place is a battleground for any time off. Better to not have a family if you go there.
My name is matthew meinecke a former NTCC minister. I am down here in San Diego. I can say we have serveral former NTCC people and some ministers are also on the way. God is doing great things down here. God used Rev Ashmore to heal a woman in rite Aid yesterday. God is moving. Rev Ashmore is a friendly caring person who preaches Jesus and his power. Type JR. Ashmore into YouTube and watch our channel
Matt, what's up.... I think I know you bro.
Julie StClair/Ridgeway/Bunt-lol-
You have claimed that Mr. Kekel, Mr. Ashmore, 5 anonymous black guys and even your own Dad have raped you ... you have told mrs. Annis and Mrs. Deavonshire that you have had multiple abortions.
You testified in a restraining order hearing that your husband at the time stuck a gun to your head and threatened to kill you ... among other HORRIFIC and abusive things... and that you feared for your childrens life.
This is not hearsay ... im not defending NTCC but if you are trying to get an objective opinion PLEASE DISREGARD ANY AND EVERYTHING JULIE has to say.
Julie dont forget I also prayed for you way after you were out of NTCC and God still didnt heal you.
One can die with cerebral palsy and go to heaven ... but one cannot die a habitual liar and go to heaven.
I pray right now in the merciful name of JESUS that you would reject that lying spirit that has been your friend ever since i have known you at age 16 and YOU NOT MR. ASHMORE SHOULD PRAY THAT JESUS CHRIST WOULD CAST THAT DAMMING LYING SPIRIT THAT IS GRIPPING YOUR TONGUE OUT SO YOU CAN BE SAVED.
If anyone has a problem with James Ashmore, fine, but dont believe everything you read.
This Julie has literaly destroyed lives with her tongue ... at least Mr. Ashmores true desire, from what I know is wants pple in heaven.
Donny Ridgeway
Julie is a liar
Not one like the little children say "liar liar pants on fire"
But the kind that will not be found in heaven.
I too heard her stories and like you believed her ... being her husband ...
My daughter was borned 12-16-00
2-7-01 was the last time I seen her it'll she was 13.
During the time Kaylynn was born she spent 2weeks in ICU while a friend watched my son Thomas leaving Julie and I some ALONE time.
This was when she told me of her many rapes ... Mr. James Ashmore was one of the accused and I told Julie I would believe her.
I began to get ahold of legal council to bring justice to this innocent girl that I had rescued from NTCC. I sent a lettet to Mr. Ashmore stating that if this was true im pressing criminal charges.
I loved Julie and hated NTCC ... WE WERE OUT ... WE WERE STARTING A NEW LIFE ... I HAD A BRAND NEW BABY GIRL ... I WANTED PPLE TO PAY FOR THEIR CRIMES....
THEN JULIE HAPPENED TO ME!!!
I CAME HOME 2-7-01 to a ransacked house . Thomas was now back and Kaylynn was home from ICU (NICU actually) ... but all three were gone.
I called the Sheriff to franticly report it and they showed up with a RESTRAINING ORDER AGAINST ME!
I don't know who you are but this poor innocent girl sat in a courtroom claiming I put a gun to her head and threaten to kill her .... and MANY OTHER SUCH THINGS ABOUT ME WHILE UNDER OATH!!!
The lies flowed out like water ...
Anyone who calls what James ashmore does "a cult" And this Julie StClair a victim is not being lead by the Spirit of truth!
God is not willing that Any perish ... and that includes Julie ... but that all come to repentance ...
You pple who have talked to Julie and are truely concerned for her soul need to contact her and urge her to mend her ways ... I will forgive her when she calls me and ask (360) 601-9519.
For brethren Jesus has forgiven me from my sins and saved me and washed me white as snow through the blood He shed on calvary ... WE ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF GODS GLORY BUT JESUS MADE A WAY FOR US TO BE SAVED.
We talk about everyone eccept Jesus:
We obsess about what happened to us an not about Jesus:
Mr. Kekel is not the problem
Mr. Ashmore is not the problem
NTCC is not the problem
SIN IS THE PROBLEM
BUT PRAISE GOD JESUS IS THE ANSWER
Though I thought Julie was the devil and wanted to cut out her tongue right before I put a bullet in her head, she is not the devil BUT RATHER ONE WHO NEEDS TO BE DELIVERED FROM THE DEVIL
AND JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN DO THAT.
You started lying at a young age Julie ... as one doing the work of an evangelist I promise I will forgive you from every thingn you said about me and I will not put you down in any way but you must regect that lying spirit and cling to Jesus Christ and call me and ask me to forgive you ... even God requires it.
Else the Lake if Fire will be your end.
And to those who are posting her story feel free to get the OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY.
IN JESUS PREDCIOUS NAME I REST MY SOUL.
DONNY RIDGEWAY
Lol ... hey Vic ... hadn't heard from you in alooooooooong while ...
I just came across this sight today and just wanted to say hi since I know you ...
I like the way you write ... im stuck on the history of my x-wife and your comments are quite soothing.
I wish I could put my experiences down like you without wanting to grab a gun and shoot something .. lol
Take care
I will be "obsessing" on the JULIE subject for a bit. She has had 15 years to spin her yarn and since she is STILL at it I feel the liberty to wring her nose pv. 30:33 (you taught me that verse. : ) )
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