Thread #28 I posted this before and I am throwing it back to the top to see if I can get more takers. I really feel that this tells a lot about the NTCC leadership.
If I were a preacher, I personally would not be interested in telling the people in church: "The more that you give in the offering, the more that you will be blessed". Is that why half of your NTCC pastors are essentially broke? Just because you give sacrificially to a crooked church organization, does not mean that you will be blessed. If I give sacrificially to a pimp will I be blessed? Give to someone that is poor and needs it and you will be blessed. Cornelius gave alms and God blessed him. That is Biblical proof. I would rather give to the poor than put another dime into Davis’s greedy organization. I would rather help someone that has a true need than to help Kekel and Davis just get richer. What did Jesus tell the young rich man? Sell what you have and give to the POOR. He didn’t say give sacrificially to the Rich which Davis and Kekel obviously fall in the category of so that they can have bigger houses and more land and so that Grant can attend a high school that costs about $20,000 anually. And they do this while their Pastors who have dedicated there lives to God and the Org financially struggle. The Pastors helpers also struggle because many of them find it difficult to get a decent job that only requires them to work 8 to 5, Mon – Fri. So Davis and Kekel get richer while the vast majority of everyone else remain in a perpetual state of poverty.
They convince people to give while displaying a scripture in the NTCC doctrinal statement that has absolutely nothing to do with paying tithes: 1Cor 16:2. That scripture deals with giving to poor Christians/Saints in Jerusalem. Read 1Cor 16:2 and reference it against Rom 15:26. You guys are being willfully deceptive in using that scripture in your doctrinal statement to support tithes. What do you think; we are all just stupid? 1Cor 16.2 has nothing to do with tithing. I am challenging ANYONE out in cyberspace or in the NTCC to prove me wrong!! If you can't prove me wrong, which you won't be able to, than that is proof that the NTCC leadership is willfully deceitful. All you have to do to view the NTCC doctrinal statement, is go on the NTCCs official web site, and look under "we believe", and there you will find the NTCC's doctrinal statement. 1Cor 16:2 deals with helping out the less fortunate folks in the Christian Church. When it come right down to it you guys are nothing more than a bunch of prosperity preachers. The difference is, unlike the big prosperity churches; your system makes it almost impossible for your "faithful" church members and preachers to prosper minus a select few. The schedule that you maintain doesn't allow most people to find and or work a decent job. Consequently the only answer is, "Get the money from the people", which you have no problem preaching. The laborer is worthy of his hire does not mean get filthy rotten rich off of your church members while they struggle financially. It definitely doesn’t mean that the NTCC CEO, President, and Founder stay filthy rotten rich while their pastors and church members struggle in the depths of poverty literally below what is considered the poverty level.
They convince people to give while displaying a scripture in the NTCC doctrinal statement that has absolutely nothing to do with paying tithes: 1Cor 16:2. That scripture deals with giving to poor Christians/Saints in Jerusalem. Read 1Cor 16:2 and reference it against Rom 15:26. You guys are being willfully deceptive in using that scripture in your doctrinal statement to support tithes. What do you think; we are all just stupid? 1Cor 16.2 has nothing to do with tithing. I am challenging ANYONE out in cyberspace or in the NTCC to prove me wrong!! If you can't prove me wrong, which you won't be able to, than that is proof that the NTCC leadership is willfully deceitful. All you have to do to view the NTCC doctrinal statement, is go on the NTCCs official web site, and look under "we believe", and there you will find the NTCC's doctrinal statement. 1Cor 16:2 deals with helping out the less fortunate folks in the Christian Church. When it come right down to it you guys are nothing more than a bunch of prosperity preachers. The difference is, unlike the big prosperity churches; your system makes it almost impossible for your "faithful" church members and preachers to prosper minus a select few. The schedule that you maintain doesn't allow most people to find and or work a decent job. Consequently the only answer is, "Get the money from the people", which you have no problem preaching. The laborer is worthy of his hire does not mean get filthy rotten rich off of your church members while they struggle financially. It definitely doesn’t mean that the NTCC CEO, President, and Founder stay filthy rotten rich while their pastors and church members struggle in the depths of poverty literally below what is considered the poverty level.
Jeff
26 comments:
Jeff,
Its all an illusion! People are told if they work hard an give freely that God will bless them.
Its nothing but a hamster turning its wheel!
Jeff,
Life in ntcc is a vicious cycle. You usually start with no money. You are told to pay tithe and give in offerings in order for God to bless you. So you faithfully pay, with a correct heart, tithe and offering. When that doesn't work, you are told that you must be doing something wrong. So you pray harder, work harder, maybe shine the pastors shoes. Still nothing. Then you are told that there MUST be some secret sin in your life. So you repent of everything you can think of, even if you aren't guilty, but you're still broke. No matter how hard you try, how holy you are, you will never have money in ntcc-- and the whole time you will be told IT'S YOUR FAULT! If, by alot of hard work and sacrifice, you do manage somehow to have a little money you will give God the glory, even though you did it all yourself. A hamster on a wheel.
Bro Jeff,
I have an idea: Why not start a blog entitled "NTCC Preacher Idol" Have your bloggers vote on who the best and Worst Pastors are in NTCC.
Start off with a field of 16. Multiple Votes are OK. Folks have to state WHY they vote the way they do, but they can remain Anonymous as this would encourage
new first time visitors.
At the end of the week, tally the scores and announce the best / worse and start the next week with a new group.
Bro Johnson
Or a field of 8, 16 too much!!
Happy Mother's Day!
How can I be strickly Anonymous?
Bro J:
That sounds like a good idea. I will need some names to start with.
I laid out a challenge that no one responded to. How come the NTCC leaders put 1Cor 16:2 in their doctrinal statement to support paying tithes when I say it has absolutely nothing to do with paying tithes at all? It seems that these NTCC guys have decided to duck and dodge this one. Maybe my thinking is wrong here but I would think that if you place a scripture in a doctrinal statement that it should support the topic that it was referenced under?
Help me out folks but am I missing something?
Jeff
"Maybe my thinking is wrong here but I would think that if you place a scripture in a doctrinal statement that it should support the topic that it was referenced under?
Help me out folks but am I missing something"
Actually, Jeff,
NTCC does not thing that a Christian with a brain would actually take the time to "study to show themself approved" unto God.
Yet another example of "cult lite". Throw in a few scriptures here and there, and your golden, it doesn't mean that it is Relevent.
I don't want to be that irrelevent Christian who just takes someone's word for it. They got to show me in the Bible what they are talking about. I know that's not good English, but its good sense!!
Bro Johnson
Oh, I forgot, NTCC does not like folks to bring Bibles to church!!
Could it be that SOMEONE forget to hit the backspace key on their typewriter 30 years ago and the scripture just stuck around? And, then it takes someone OUTSIDE of NTCC to question the validity of it.
Stop the Insanity!!
MLJ
MLJ said...
NTCC does not thing that a Christian with a brain would actually take the time to "study to show thyself approved" unto God.
Jeff said...
Unfortunately the NTCC has folks so brainwashed that many of them don't even want to know the truth. I talked to someone on the phone the just the other day who is still in the NTCC. We specifically talked about this topic and the NTCCs illegitimate reference to 1Cor 16:2. This NTCC nut actually said: "OK so they are wrong about one scripture; that is only one scripture." I was amazed at his response. Many NTCC guys will justify just about anything that the NTCC does regardless of what it is.
Jeff
So they ruined one family-- big deal-- it's just one family. So they ran an innocent person off-- it's only one person. So they caused such torment to a person that they no longer believe in God-- big deal-- it's only one person. On and on.
"OK so they are wrong about one scripture; that is only one scripture"
Sin is still sin, no matter how you slice it.
Wrong is still wrong, however you may slice it.
Once you prove that a right is a wrong you cannot no longer justify why something is wrong.
If your wrong about one scripture, your probably wrong about another scripture, and another scripture.
MLJ
The reality is, and it is really sad - it that honest people came to NTCC because they were looking for God, but NTCC ran them off.
What is the point throwing money down the tube if the preacher is going to run the individual off?
I understand the Gospel is not for everybody. I got it.
I understand that not everybody who hears a genuine Salvation message is going to accept Christ. I got it.
For Pete's sake, NTCC Ministers, once you led the poor soul to the alter you slaughter them right then and there.
Allow that person to come to God on their own terms. For Grace are ye saved through Faith, and NOT OF YOUR NTCC MINISTER WORKS, least any man should boast.
MLJ
".....THEY THAT LOVE THE LAW OF THE LORD, NOTHING SHALL OFFEND THEM..." How many times in NTCC did we hear that misquoted? depending on how long you were in. A hundred? A thousand?
It doesn't say that in the bible.
it says: "Great Peace have that which love thy law and nothing shall offend them" Get it right or don't quote it!!
I heard it too many times and you are right. They misquoted it and also used it to justify their abuse and inconsiderate treatment of others. Basically what they would do is intentionally verbally abuse and dog out a brother or sister. Then when and if the brother or sister became agitated or upset about with the mistreatment, the sorry NTCC leader would say that the brother or sister that just got dogged out was the problem because they became quote "offended" too easily.
This was another classic example of NTCC psychological manipulation. The NTCC would manipulate the person that legitimately just got treated wrong into believing that they were the one with the problem. This exact type of treatment has caused me to have nothing but disdain for the NTCC.
It becomes totally disgusting to me when I think about how much abuse I've seen dished out by NTCC leaders.
Jeff
Okay Chief so let's say that part of what you are stating is true and part is not true because you really can't relate to the ministers for you were never a minister so you can't just come out and say things because that is hearsay, if pastor davis tells that the place where he lives (not his house) but the properties around his house are not in his name but are the organization's then who is telling the truth?
I know that this topic is not what you are talking about but it just makes me think that maybe you are not getting the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Pastor davis may have had a vested interest in the whole deal but now he doesn't because he has no need for it. Maybe he was wise with his money and I know that his brother was very savy in real estate so that tells us that he knows how to make his money grow to the point that he has no need to have money from the coffers of ntcc, not now anyway.
Anonymous said... "Okay Chief so let's say that part of what you are stating is true and part is not true because you really can't relate to the ministers for you were never a minister so you can't just come out and say things because that is hearsay"
Chief said... First thing: I was around so many NTCC ministers for one reason or another for such a long period of time WHILE I WAS IN THE NTCC, that I have enough FIRST HAND knowledge of how they operate and the type of things that they do, and as a result it is NOT HEARSAY. It’s called my very own first hand experiences.
Second thing is that I was a REAL leader for 17 of the 20 years that I spent in the Army. For the last 6-7 years I was in charge of from 230 people ranging to as many as 504 people when I served twice, as the First Sergeant of the same company. I was trained on effective leadership principles in every NCOES school all the way through ANCOC) which is the Armies Advanced Non-Commissioned Officers Course. I went to a leadership course that no longer even exists. NTCC ministers can't tell me snot about effective leadership because frankly I never met too many that could incorporate it and the ones that could, became sick of the NTCC and left. That is why you have so many guys like Vic and Casey who post here and have posted on FACTNet for quite some time. Because as time went on they figured out and admitted that abusive, manipulative, mind control was a practice incorporated by entirely too many of their peers and they no longer wanted to have any part of it.
Thirdly; NTCC ministers are sent to a non accredited school that provides you with a transcript if you ask for one, that is worth no more than a square of toilet paper used to wipe my butt. How can I say that so confidently? Because the NTCC transcript has a disclaimer written on the bottom that essentially says it is worth nothing. I have a copy of one at my house here with me as we speak. I can very well relate to an NTCC minister. Anyone who has stayed in the NTCC for any length of time as a minister, must have some exposure to the things we write about.
If I know as much about the NTCC as I do, and I have never been an NTCC minister, the NTCC ministers have no excuse for turning a blind eye to all of NTCCs garbage that in FACT exists and has been proven to exist by entirely too many witnesses many of which WERE NTCC ministers themselves. FOR THE RECORD: I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT AN NTCC MINISTER CAN GET CAUGHT UP IN THE NTCC'S PRACTICES FOR A GOOD WHILE!!!! Sooner or later when they see and understand the facts plainly, if they don't leave the NTCC, they become guilty by association and usually they become guilty because they practice the same abusive, cult tactic garbage as there brethren. NTCC ministers write a substantial amount of what one reads on ALL of these blogs to include this one. Vic and Casey were both ministers and Casey also starts threads on this blog. We are fellow contributers here. There are others on this blog that were previous NTCC ministers and I talk to many of them on the phone so what I am writing is not hearsay.
Some of what is written is speculation but the vast majority of what is written on this blog and all the others, is pure fact that has been verified by entirely too many witnesses such as myself. Other than Ramirez who is an abusive jerk, and Madrano who I was only with for a few months, I became pretty close to every NTCC pastor that I had. I spent just enough time around the overseers to learn even more about the NTCC when ever they would come around. The fact is, if you didn't say one word to any of them all you had to do is watch them for a while to figure them out fairly well. But that wasn't the case with me because I talked to them every chance that I got and I would dig baby. Only a dummy wants to know absolutely nothing about a group that their whole live revolves around. I wanted to know as much as I could and I asked plenty of questions and despite the FACT that I talk a lot and I recognize that, but you better believe that I listen, and I took in much of what I was told like a digital recorder. It's in there and you better believe it.
I remember much of what RWD said, and what little Olson said, and Ashmore, and Kinson, and Jones, and even Denis when he was around. Ashmore and Denis talked a lot. Anyone who talks more than me talks a lot and that was definitely the case with both of those two. Jones and Kinson do their share of talking and I learned just as much from what they DIDN’T say as from what they did. Despite the fact that they were all quite different, there were stark parallels between all of them. Denis learned what he learned from RWD and he told me that and I saw the similarities between the two. When RWD got going behind the pulpit he spoke of a whole lot which gave a discerning person plenty of insight into his character. Different NTCC pastors, minister helpers, and overseers would occasionally give you tidbits of information that was supposed to be somewhat classified because of the NTCC communist approach to freedom of information. Everything didn’t always remain classified and it shouldn’t have.
So what did you say about hearsay? I think NOT. 3% calculative, logical speculation based on facts, and 97% FACTS that have been proven to be facts. If I speculate about something, 99% of the time I throw a disclaimer into the statement to intentionally alert people to the FACT that my statement is speculation.
Once again what did you say about hearsay? Thank God that I never became an NTCC minister because I learned enough from NTCC ministers to know that I am no longer interested in being one.
Jeff
Jeff, to piggyback on what you stated which blew all the sharks out of the water:
I was on my way towards being an NTCC minister. I was within a sliver of going and then I got married. Me getting married was a roadblock and a warning sign on the way to hell(Doing it the NTCC way).
Had I became a minister within the organization I would have to say honestly that I would have gotten sucked up in it. I would have believed a lie and be dammned (note to you fault finders out there, I did NOT curse. The word is in the Bible, look it up!!)
I would have been on the inside looking out thinking what is wrong with people on this blog. Why do people defame Pastor Davis like that, with all he has done for God. Why are people jealous of the manisons Davis and Kekel have? If they work hard they will be blessed also, being naive about BEING BROKE thinking that God would bless me (which He still might have done regardless of NTCC)
I would have met some lady in NTCC, got married, not have kids, use my vacation to go to two mandatory conferences.
I would have then purchased a computer, typed in NTCC and would have stumbled across Tracys blog. Then I would have heard it preached against and Kekels threatenings about IP addresses, approached Kekel, admit my sin, and be forgiven by Kekel.
I would have gone to my grave THINKING I was doing God a justice, a favor, and then God would have revealed to me it was all Vanity of Vanities, and vexation of spirit.
Good thing that did not happen. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. NTCC you cannot play a player!!
Bro Johnson
(CONTINUATION OF LAST BLOG)
However, Comma Dot Com.
Something happened which changed my path and destiny.
Folks may call it a lucky strike or "You met your soul mate". etc etc. I call it divine intervention. Why would God send me half way around the world to depart from an organization I had been in for 10 years??
God cared enough about me to pull me out of the mess. And I know He has done it to hundreds and hundreds of others. Many not as dramatic as the mentors on this blog, but nevertheless God intervend.
It comes a time in a Man or Woman's life when God pulls out all the stops and says STOP.
For such a time is this, we have been called out of NTCC. For what reason? To warn others? To start an independant movement? Who knows? When it is all said and done and God wraps it all up, Folks are going to be surprised when NTCC is peeled back, God opens their eyes and they see it for what it really is and the ministers for who they really are.
Satan works in strange ways, his "ministers" are at work as we speak.
My life has been one miracle after another in ways I cannot discuss on this blog. God has kept His hand on me for a reason.
It was not my intention in joining the military anyway. When your broke, you do what you have to do.
I am writing a lot now because when my CQ ends I am history for a week.
God Bless,
Bro Johnson
Bro. Johnson,
You made an interesting comment about God sending you half-way around the world to leave NTCC. I believe that God sent us to Puerto Rico to get us to leave ntcc. In PR I met the absolute best Christians and ministers I ever knew. Some were American and some were Puerto Rican. People who genuinely cared and lived a Christian life. I remember I kept thinking, "Why can't our church be this nice? Why can't ministers in ntcc be this caring?" It was a gradual process, but eventually I realized that ntcc didn't really practice true Christianity. It was mostly lip service.
Interesting Casey, the nice people was one of the reasons I continued to go to NTCC after I was first invited. My wife says the same thing. One of the reasons many people keep going to our churches is that the people are very friendly. I went to conference and Pastor was not mean to me one time. I didn't see him being mean to anyone else either. I'm not even a pastor in NTCC and yet the ministers on the board all know me by name and come and shake my hand and say "nice to see you brother." I really can't relate to your accusation that our church isn't nice.
Anonymous: You can't relate to Casey's accusations because I don't think you know the difference between someone who is fake and someone who is sincere.
What kind of sincerity is it to only call someone or go to see them because they missed church. If that is being friendly, I don't want friends. NTCC folks are the most fake people that I have ever met in my life. A fake person can come across as friendly and that is exactly the way it is in the NTCC. You call it friendly to not even let someone in your house because you are their pastor? And make you stand outside? Buddy; I sincerely believe that you don't read people very well. Even when I was in the NTCC I clearly recognized that many people were fake and they were just trying to act like RWD and they weren't themselves.
Here is an example of someone who is fake. You state that you have a problem and the NTCC typical response is "I will be praying for you." Someone who is not fake actually considers trying to help. I got so sick of hearing that. Here is another one: "God bless you brother." They don't even think about what they are saying because they have said it so many times that they don't even realize that they are saying it.
I got in a car wreck: I'll be praying for you.
My dishwasher broke: I'll be praying for you.
I broke my big toe: I'll be praying for you.
I'm leaving your abusive NTCC church: I'll be praying for you.
They are the ones that need to be prayed for because they are deceived by Olson, RWD and Kekel.
Anon,
There are nice people in NTCC. I was one of them. But, overall, most ntcc preachers are NOT nice. They are usually sarcastic and mean-spirited in their preaching; and just downright mean when dealing with people on a personal level. This may not happen all the time, but it does happen most of the time. Not all preachers are mean, but I have personally experienced alot of mean-spirited pastors in my 24 years in ntcc. My first two pastors-- Mike Marshall and Eli Gesang were good to me and I have no problems with them back in the servicemen's home.
Now Jeff has a valid point. When they are inviting you out to ntcc and trying to get you "in" they are extremely nice. But, once you are "in" then they start turning the screws, so to speak.
When I visited other churches, the pastors were very approachable-- which just is not the case with the average ntcc pastor. You can't question an ntcc preacher, or disagree in any way, without the pastor taking offense and usually jacking you up. This does not happen in normal churches. Also, these other churches are nice and not pressuring you to return. They actually cared about people with no strings attached. Ntcc preachers usually pressure you to stay, and will be nice to get you to stay, but it is not sincere. Once they think you are "in" they return to their sarcastic, jacking-up, abusive selves. I DO know what I'm talking about here.
"You call it friendly to not even let someone in your house because you are their pastor? And make you stand outside?"
Brother, I remember when the preacher coming over to your house (outside of NTCC) was a big deal. I was in a Baptist Church in which when the Reverand came to your house, it was a big deal. My Mom cooked a spagetti dinner. He came over, prayed over the dinner and blessed the family.
MLJ
"but I have personally experienced alot of mean-spirited pastors in my 24 years in ntcc."
AND why is that? These are the same men whom have to get a recommendation from THEIR pastor to attend BS, which is really nothing but utter Bravo Sierra, if you know what I mean!
Why are these men mean spirited? What happended about having a Pastorial heart and tending to the flock?
These mean are no more than wolf in sheeps clothing. They prey on the weak and pure in heart. Why are they so corrupted? Why does not NTCC remove these monsters?
Oh, I forgot. They want to be like Davis.
Bro Jeff, did you notice that the fall conference will not be at the Campgrounds this year, but will be regional. I wonder why that is??
Bro Johnson
Bro J:
You are all are right about many NTCC ministers being mean spirited. They are monsters and to answer your question about the conference?
I don't know nor can I logically speculate. Where is it supposed to be held at?
Jeff
Jeff,
Don't know, maybe our NTCC bloggers can speculate or let us know?
MLJ
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