It doesn't matter how smart you are, or how educated you are. If you are a woman and join NTCC, you will never get to use your talents period. Of course once again, not unless you are Tanya. I know a lot of educated and intelligent women in NTCC who hated fellowshipping with the typical sister, because all they talked about was coupons and babies and sewing and thrift stores, and if they were the UPPER CLASS, shopping at real stores and buying NEW items not USED.
If you want to talk about politics, or the economy, or issues of any real importance, you'd better find another church if you are a woman, because it is a rare occurrence that you will discuss those topics with any of the "Male" leaders. But, according to NTCC, if you are a woman, those intelligent topics are for men only and that is certainly the impression that RWD gives. Why do I say that?
How often during a fellowship, either out at a restaurant, or in the serviceman's home, do you see men and women fellowshipping together? Not often unless they are eating and often they are separated there also. What's a stupid woman doing wanting to talk politics? Of course, in the real world, women make great leaders, and hold positions in all kinds of intelligent fields. A lot of great inventions and ideas in this world have been created by women. If they had belonged to the NTCC none of it would have happened, because Davis would have reminded them how they were nobodies or second class so to speak, and were only suppose to cook, clean and have sex. NTCC is so out of touch with reality on this issue it's incredible. Read Proverbs Chapter 31 and that will put thing back into perspective. I also have seen women in NTCC who were better leaders and decision makers than their preacher husbands. And if you are a married women in NTCC, forget about working on a job-- it is not allowed and Jeff has covered that topic extensively.
I have personally witnessed Davis tearing women down for no good reason. I remember once sitting in a class while Davis proceeded to criticize a new sister because she wore a bow in her hair. It was a very strong criticism in front of the whole class. The poor girl was crying and Davis could care less. Those of us sitting there couldn't believe we were witnessing this senseless act of cruelty by Davis. And what was his point? Who cared if she had a bow in her hair? What if one of us had started to criticize his daughter because her dresses were too tight?
Feel free to share your stories-- I know there are ALOT of horror stories out there.
Casey
48 comments:
Casey said...
"Women are NOT allowed to have a leadership role in church, with the exception of Tanya"
Jeff said...
That is about the size of it buddy. I wonder when the NTCC women are going to figure that out? The problem is if they do, they don't want to leave their husbands and unfortunately I don't blame them.
I wish the husbands would see it. That sure would help the cause of the women. The fact is the bible has limited certain leadership options for women and it is what it is. The problem that I have is that the NTCC has required most of those limitation to apply to just about every woman except Tanya.
The Kekels get special privileges and they have all along. Tanya gets treated different than any other woman in the entire NTCC. She has been afforded far more respect and liberty than any other woman in the NTCC by far. It's good to have you back you rule breaker. Ha, ha. I enjoyed the last thread.
Jeff
Behind every sucessful man there is a strong women.
Exhibit A: Mike Kekel.
That's It in NTCC..
MLJ
Women are not to be used in the service unless they sing or play the piano. I don't remember RW getting on Tanya for not learning how to play the piano, like he use to get on the other ministers wives. I remember when Sis Woods led song service when Bro Espinoza was alive. Rev. Espinoza had to replace her cause RW said he wouldn't have a woman up there when he had a bunch of men in the congregation. Sis Woods did a great job back then.
I am trying to attempt not to bash women here, but truth be told,
MANY NTCC preacher's wives could not play the piano.
Rev Bellamy's wife was the worst piano player EVER!! His wife could not keep time, could not sing (sounded like a foghorn piercing through a fog), could not hardly played chords, which by the way is what NTCC women learn to play, not the actual piano, but chords.
Bellamy used to say in a joking way in NTCC in JC, Kansas that I sped up the song service, was too excited, etc. My wife knew the truth. It was HIS wife that could not play or sing.
When I was the song leader, I was good.
I did hear Sister MacDonald preach once when her husband could not.
Bro Johnson
Funny since Kekel likes attending Bluegrass festivals to learn how to play the piano that he couldn't pay $10,000 for private piano lessons since he pays $20,000 a year for Grant to go to school and play football in tight pants.
MLJ
Correction: To learn how to play the guitar, not piano.
I need to go to bed!
Bro Johnson
Well Brother Johnson, that was back in 2002-2003...when Sis Bellamy was 1st beginning. Nobody is perfect when they first start anything. People get nervous too.
She can most certainly play and sing now though.
Rev. Bellamy never had really preached before he arrived in JC. I remember he used to be scared and croak out words alot...lol.
Not anymore. He's turned into a wonderful dynamic preacher.
Yahweh has blessed them both.
Funny thing about this is. We just had a study on this at church and there were woman in the bible who preached, taught, etc. I'll let you guys search it out since the names are not coming to mind. Or I'll go find them and report back! And the morons at NTCC think when the people speaks of "men" that they are just talking about women. Well God has called all people to many different ministries so he can't just call the men right? HELLLOOOO?
This is long but please try to read it fully because it is good. Jeff
A lot of NTCC women couldn't play the keyboard when their husbands first started at a church. Some women still couldn't play by the time they left the church to be replaced. That was the fault of the NTCC leadership in Graham without any doubt. I also fault the pastor of the church for even having his wife up there. Some of the pastors would have been better off not even putting their wives up their rather than making a TOTAL joke of the song service. You unwise pastors would be better off to have people sing without an instrument or maybe not even sing at all rather than make a total MESS out of a song service.
Believe it or not I have seen as many visitors leave an NTCC church never to come back because of a thoroughly messed up song service. I am positive about this and I am definitely not exaggerating. Sis Oberhauser was an absolutely horrible keyboard player in Columbus Ga. It is not her fault. It's her husbands fault for even putting her up there and it is Grahams fault for even allowing it to continue for as long as it did. I used to lead songs and I was so uncomfortable leading songs with her playing. There I was up there trying to lead songs while watching the some of the craziest expressions coming from people in the congregation.
I felt so bad for Oberhausers wife and I am not the shy type but it made me totally uncomfortable. There were evenings that I didn't even show up for church because I didn't want to witness that fiasco. There is nothing wrong with not being able to play or sing but you have to have sense enough to admit your abilities or the lack thereof. You just had to be there to have any idea how bad it was. The overseers saw it happen and they should have put a stop to her playing period. Respectfully; Mrs. Oberhauser is thoroughly unmusically inclined. She can't play or sing or either of the two by themselves. She just can't hear music; and everyone has different gifts and that is just not one of hers.
This is to you NTCC overseers and leaders in Graham: If you are going to unwisely send someone out to TRY and pastor a church, and his wife can't play at all; don't allow the two to use a real church service as a testing ground because you idiots really embarrass a whole lot of people when you do it.
You guys are so thoroughly inconsiderate and insensitive it's not even funny. Learn to think out of the box you boneheads and if a sister simply can't play don't stick her up their to make a complete mockery of the church service.
You guys have the audacity to state that you want to win souls to your church and more importantly to Christ? You sure do blow it when you stick a non musical sister behind a keyboard who can't even hear a single NOTE because she is TONE DEAF like sister Oberhauser. Once you figured out she couldn't do it AT ALL, which should have taken about one song in one church service, you should have pulled her off the keyboard until she got it at least half way right out of church. I guess you idiots never figured out that sis Oberhauser's keyboard playing was one of the main reasons that people didn't stick around Oberhauser's church along with Oberhauser's preaching. Sing A-capella if you need to you knuckle heads, but Oberhauser would have never listened to me had I told him that. I tried a few times but he shut me down.
Are you wondering why my wife wasn't in church when she is a very good keyboard player and she was the primary musician / pianist in church? Because I wasn't bringing my little boy back home late, when he needed to be in bed at a decent time, because he had to be at school the next day. My little boy means and meant a whole lot more to me by far than your sorry organization and he wasn't going to loose sleep over one more of many church services.
Don't give me this "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as a matter of some is; garbage. I have heard way too many NTCC ministers say that the reason you hold so many church services is to raise enough money, or in many cases extra money and that is why you have such an extensive schedule of church services. It's all about money you crook, and RWD teaches that you need to have enough services to raise enough money. So many of you NTCC preachers know this but you keep doing it anyway because you are a bunch of crooks. You hold as many services as you possibly can so you can fleece your sheep. Boy you crooks better hope that you are wrong about this judgment business because you are going to be in a world of hurt when you stand before God knowing that the main reason that you hold so many church services is to make more money.
JEFFREY COLLINS
alright Jeff, now tell us how you really feel!!!!
(im with you brotha!)
T
I think the worst was when we use to go to fellowship meetings and the pastors tried to get their wives to sing or play just because it was their church and you know the pride trip these pastor get into:"bless your heart, I'm the host pastor so my wife gets to sing and play"
The pastors wives all tried to sound like rodrigues and schunk and you know they didn't even come close to it. The congregation would just look stunned and tried not to snicker and some would just close their eyes and lift up their hands to make up for the embarrasing performance they were hearing.
I hope what I'm about to write doesn't ruffle too many feathers. I am an honest broker here and I try my very best to be sincere; not for anyone else but for my own conscience. I respect everyone who participates in this blog and especially the regulars, i.e. the household of faith as it were. Ha, ha.
I could care less if a woman teaches, preaches, works, leads people or holds any other position of authority in or out of the church. I don't care if a woman is a PASTOR because the United States is full of female Pastors and there is nothing me, you, or anybody else can or will do to stop that practice.
Now with that being said the bible NEVER in one single place states, or even suggests that a woman EVER filled the office of a Pastor or that she should. I know the Bible well people and I certainly don't want to get into a debate over this subject however I am going to bring up a few quick points to dispel some inaccurate teachings.
Number one there were no pastors that represented Christ in the Old Testament simply because Christ had not yet come, and there was no one bringing glad tidings of a message of salvation because it didn't even exist yet. Essentially what I am saying is that in the OLD TESTAMENT, there was not a "CHRISTIAN CHURCH" to pastor because it didn't even exist yet. There were prophesies foretelling Christs arrival but no salvation to preach about until he died on the cross. The Jews were still under the law and it is just that simple. So consequently someone can not mention Deborah for example who was not a Pastor to begin with, she was a Judge. Two completely different offices. So what I am saying is you can't go to the Old Testament to even learn of "Christian" Pastors because one didn't even exist.
Next we go to the New Testament and people want to talk about Priscilla. The Bible says plainly that Aquila and Priscilla had church in "THEIR HOUSE" and that they were Paul's helpers. The Bible also says that they; "Aquila and Priscilla" expounded unto Apollos the way of God more perfectly. Folks the Bible never says that Priscilla was a Pastor and the Bible never even suggested that she was. To draw that concussion would be purely speculative with no real Bible facts to support such speculation. For that matter the Bible never suggested that Aquila was a Pastor.
While in my house, I can teach the Bible to a bunch of folks but does that mean that I am a Pastor? Absolutely NOT. Maybe a teacher but not a pastor.
Then people talk about Phebe. That is really a stretch because all the Bible says about her was that she was a servant of the Church. The Bible certainly didn't say that she was a Pastor or that she even performed the duties of a Pastor.
Now this is what I am saying. I could care less if a woman does pastor a church because as it relates to this blog; the NTCC has caused more religious atrocities than could possibly be created by a woman simply because she desires to hold the office of a Pastor. Have a woman Pastor or the NTCC; the NTCC would certainly be the far worse of the two evils. I would rather be under a woman Pastor who had COMMON DECENCY than the majority of these crooked NTCC pastors who blindly follow Kekel the crook, and RWD who teaches that his pastors should hold 5 services a week just primarily so they can get more money from the people and he has stated that openly.
He has said don't come to him if you are broke if you are not holding a full schedule of services. "You wonder why you are broke because you don't have enough services throughout the week" Spoken by RWD. Take up two offerings if you need to and I witnessed this occurrence in Atlanta by Mayers. They are all crooks that fleece their people when ever they need extra money; also know as "Fleecing the sheep."
So to conclude; does the Bible teach that a woman should be a pastor? If it does I surely can't find it and I know the Bible well so what's my answer. No. Do I care if a woman is a pastor? No. As long as she is not causing harm to anyone, because an NTCC crook who is a "MAN", and abuses and uses his church members, is far worse than a decent "WOMAN" who has decided that she feels like pastoring a church. So there you have it.
Who knows; can God call a woman to pastor? I don't know, I'm not God. I suppose God can do whatever he wants but some folks say God can't go against his word, and if the Bible is Gods word, and I sure hope it is if you claim to be a Christian, the Bible never talks about a woman being a pastor anywhere.
Jeff
are we reverting back to the "tanya is an ordained minister" thread here?
let me know because i have a lot to say on that point as well
t
t: you can post whatever you would like my friend.
I have taken all RULES, ha-ha, off this blog except I don't like cursing because it is not necessary and it turns people away from this or any other Christian oriented blog which is exactly what I don't want.
Too many current NTCC folks read this blog and you better believe it. They need to feel comfortable coming here because they need to hear the real "truth" about the NTCC and t many of us have it.
Jeff.
God called and used women preachers in the Old Testament.DEBORAH - Judges 4:4-5. Deborah was a Judge for both civil and criminal cases. The children of Israel came to her for judgment. She was the chief ruler of Israel for 40 years, giving orders to the Generals and all the army. She did the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge, and a preacher. God gave her authority over the mighty (Judges 5:13).
MIRIAM - Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4. She was a Prophetess and a Song Leader in Israel.
HULDAH - 2 Kings 22:14. Five men went to Sister Huldah and communed with her. She spoke to a congregation of men concerning the book of the Law. A female preached to a man's congregation, and her message was taken to the nation and produced a revival.
MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ'S MOTHER - Isaiah 8:3. She was a prophetess.
God called and used women preachers in the New Testament.The first message of the Resurrection of Christ was spoken by women to a group of men.
Anna - Luke 2:36-38. She must have prophesied in church, because she did not depart from the temple.
Phillip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:9.
Priscilla assisted Paul in his revival meeting and even taught Apollos in the way of the Lord more perfectly.
Phebe - Romans 16:1-2. Paul commended Phebe to the Church at Rome and requested that they assist her in her business. She was one of Paul's assistants in the work of the Lord and delivered the Book of Romans to the people from the hand of Paul.
"Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..." (Acts 10:34).
1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers. If Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray, prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18).
Paul was rather dealing with a particular problem in the church. Women were not educated as were the men in that day; therefore the women would talk back and forth to their husbands in church and ask questions concerning the sermon. Paul said, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." If they want to talk things over let them wait until they get home. This rule is still good for the church today, where people are talking and causing confusion in the church service. They should not speak in church. (chatting to each other while the Pastor is preaching basically is what this means)
If a woman cannot speak in church, then she cannot speak in prayer meetings, young people's services, etc., for who can deny that Sunday Schools and Prayer meetings, and Youth works are parts of church? Christ's Church is not a building, but rather it is found where two or three are gathered together in His name, whether at a street meeting, in a tent, a home, church, classroom or anywhere else.
1 Timothy 2:12 is not a blanket rule for all women of all churches. If it were, then the women could not speak at all, for the same verse that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent.
If all women had to keep silent in church, then that would be promoting disobedience to God, for they could not prophesy, pray, testify, sing, exhort, do personal work, or even get saved.
Whenever an interpretation to a verse contradicts the rest of the teaching of the Bible, we know this interpretation is incorrect, for the Holy Spirit will never contradict His own Word.
This is the chief verse that is used to oppose women preaching and yet it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a public worship or church service. But, on the contrary, this verse is giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves in regard to their husband. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:35, "And if they will LEARN anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Now he states in 1 Tim. 2:12 that the woman should learn in silence, and should not usurp authority over the man. Paul is dealing with more of a home problem than a church problem.
Some have used Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children...", but there is a difference between a preacher and a bishop.
The Bible often speaks of "man" when it refers to both men and and women inclusively. The word "mankind" also includes both men and women. For an example of this word usage see 1 Cor. 13:1 - "Though I speak with the tongues of MEN and angels...." This word "MEN" includes women as well, for we do not have one language for men and another for women.
To condemn women preachers and women church workers is a serious offense, because God has stamped His approval on them by His Spirit over and over again, and who is man to fight against the Spirit of God?
Acts 2:17-18 (KJV)And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Angie said...
She did the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge, and a preacher.
Jeff said...
Angie: The word evangelist only occurs twice in the entire bible and both times in the New Testament. Deborah didn't do the work of an evangelist as it is referenced in the New Testament because such an office didn't even exist yet. No one was evangelizing for Christ yet because he had not yet come. You were either a Israelite by birth or a Gentile and the Israelites may have spent time warring against the Gentiles but I wouldn't say during the time of Deborah's reign, that they were trying to convert the Gentiles into becoming Israelites. They were trying to forcefully conquer the enemy more so than convert them. There is a difference so once again I don't know about the evangelist part.
I can agree with the other three that you mentioned but "evangelist" certainly as the word is referenced in the New Testament is quite a stretch, in all fairness.
Jeff
Let's face it, it's not going to be popular in our ultra-feminist, politically correct society, but, the Bible is clear....Women are not 'lesser' than men in any way and in fact are probably more competent than men, but, they are not to lead men, the women's role in the NT church is to teach other women. that is clearly taught!
to teach or view otherwise is simply to rebel against the clear written word of God.
but.....
we must remember, it only applies to leadership in the church, women can still teach the Bible and teach it well and lead Women's bible studies.
We simply cannot understand this today because of our confusion of gender roles and the outright rebellion of our country
T
It's interesting how the role of women has eroded over the years in NTCC. When I first got to BS, women preached regularly, and led song services. They worked in the office and some were teachers and ordained ministers (I think Jessie King still is ordained). But by the time we left, it had been many years since I heard any woman preach at NTCC, and that seems to be the way it is now.
Of course, they say things haven't changed. Riiight.
T: I tend to lean in your direction for sure but with all fairness, as it relates to this topic the Bible also says that they; "Aquila and Priscilla" expounded unto Apollos the way of God more perfectly.
Once again that didn't make her a pastor for sure however it did show that a woman with her husband was used to expound more perfectly the way of God unto Apollos, who incidentally was a mighty man of the word as proven by the scriptures already. There certainly is evidence in the NT that God did used woman in certain roles but there is no evidence that God used them in leadership roles having "AUTHORITY" over men. Expounding more perfectly the word of God does not mean or suggest that Women filled church leadership positions of held the role of authority exercising dominion over men. The New Testament simply doesn't teach that. But once again I could care less what role women play in the church because they certainly can't do any worse of a job than some of the abusive, illogical, hypocritical, NTCC men that I have encountered.
For sure there is a whole lot more to loving people than worrying about which Gender is in charge. The NTCC has proved that. Truthfully T, I could care less who is in charge. Unless I decide to build my own church someday, I have better things to worry about. Realistically that is the problem with the NTCC. They strain at a gnat, and anyone who has read the Bible knows exactly what that means. So if Angie and other women feel that women should be able to hold leadership roles in the church, that is fine with me. I sincerely could care less.
Jeff
I always got aggravated when I would ask the Pastor about the roles of women in the Bible like Deborah. He always had the same lame reason of why NTCC did not follow suit.
" The men at the time were not willing to take a stand...etc"
He made it seem like they had to scrape at the bottom of a barrel and dig up a woman to lead.
I love and adore the homemaker! My mother was a home maker( she wasn't a Donna Reed, she could shoot skeet like nobody's business!). She was extremely well rounded. She knew politics, sports, and she clipped coupons! She could hold a conversation with any man of business and not embarrass my Dad. She wasn't shy about giving her opinion, but she was a LADY about it.
Well fast-forward a couple of decades, and I was the same way. However, NTCC wasn't fond of my advanced knowledge towards the affairs of the world. Whenever the sisters would get together and talk, staying engaged was extremely difficult. I remember we were talking about the upcoming election, one sister piped "Oh I don't really know the issues, I just vote like my husband.!" I was dumbfounded!
Lastly, when I realized I was going to become a homemaker I still hit the books at home to improve myself. I didn't want to look like a ditz when my husband would take me to military affairs.
Thanks for writing this article Casey! I can't wait to show my little girl how to shoot....and bake!
Waiting to Exhale
Sis Dawn,
Glad to hear you, and glad to hear the Bellamys have improved based upon your observation(s).
Kudos to you Bro Jeff, you hit the nail on the head. The Bible states to make a joyful noise unto the Lord, many church services I have attended was nothing but noise.
Sis Dawn, I have some constructive critism of the Bellamys.
(1) As the assistant Paster, Bellamy should have already been ready to preach. Maybe practice to his wife. Or go drive one mile up the road and preach to the cows. If you can get a cow to listen to you, your doing good!
(2) As the assistant Preacher's wife, it was too easy for Sis Bellamy to walk 25 feet to talk to whomever the Pastor's wife was at that time to ask for some pointers.
My point is, if your second in command, you better be willing to step up to the plate and perform in the capcity of a preacher in his absense.
Bellamy was shocked when NTCC moved Devenshire, but again, he should have been expecting it. To not be prepared reflects a lack of professionalism (and dare I say pride) on his part.
As leaders, we don't choose to be in the fire, sometimes we just get thrown in the fire; you better be able as a leader to perform your mission or tasks to standard regardless of who is in charge, or in the absense of orders or leadership.
Bro Johnson
Bro Johnson
I decided to write this thread (with Jeff's help), because I have heard so many disturbing stories over the years. i really hope more people will be encouraged to post their stories, even if it is anonymously. I've heard of pastors yelling at someone's wife in front of the husband, and the husband doing nothing to defend his wife. Mostly it is over some minor offense. In fact, under ntcc mentality, the husband probably chewed out his wife when they were alone. This is not Christian. Or how about the story of Mayers asking a military brother who was being shipped oversees, if his wife could stay back with the church for 2 years, so she could pay tithe!!! That is the most selfish, idiotic thing I can imagine-- all in the name of... money! And do you think Mayers would be willing to leave his wife for 2 whole years so she could financially support someone elses church? No way. Or how about a brother deciding he doesn't want to be a part of ntcc anymore, so Tanya and/or her mother tells the wife to leave the husband and split up the family! That, folks, is cult thinking at it's best.
When I decided to write this thread, under some requests from others, I was thinking more along the lines of how women in ntcc really have no value. It's more of a subservient human whose only value is cooking, cleaning and mothering.
Now those things in and of themselves are commendable-- but is that ALL women are good for? If you look at the real world you see women playing a part in many aspects of society. Some women chose to not be mothers-- or in the case of those poor preachers who decide they want to pastor a Servicemen's Home, are told flat out NOT to have kids, even if they want them. I know alot of women got alot of grief by Davis, because they had kids. George Jordan's wife comes to mind. They put up with alot of stress and aggrevation from Davis over wanting children-- even though the Bible encourages people to have children.
As for sisters not knowing how to play the piano-- great point. I don't blame the sisters necessarily, because they are told it is their duty to play piano whether they want to or not. But, not everyone can be a musician. I think song services and alter calls are the most stressful times for the majority of ntcc churches, because they "musicians" know so little of music! It would be funny if it weren't so serious.
Most of you know I am a musician and have been since 3rd grade. I have been playing saxophone since elementary school, then played the drums in ntcc for about 15 or so years, and now I play acoustic guitar. I'm hear to tell you that nothing destroys a church service quciker than bad music. People can tolerate (barely) bad preaching, but bad music makes you want to walk out. Most visitors of a church will decide to leave after the song service, because most people do not come to church because of your doctrinal beliefs. They stay because they like the people and hopefully like the pastor and his wife. We visited a church in Puerto Rico once that had such awesome musicians, that they could have recorded it and sold it easy. In fact, most churches, especially Charismatic churches, have very good musicians-- because they understand the importance of good music for a worship service. In contrast, a typical ntcc church service is not well planned, has horrible music and singing, a lousy to mediocre preacher, and a lame alter call. Then they have the audacity to blame their lack of souls on the helpers, the wife, the congregation, and the devil. The truth is, people leave because the church services are lousy-- especially the music. Alot of us have had to endure sitting through hundreds of embarrassing church services, with the worst music you ever heard. But, again, I don't blame the poor sister trying her best to clunk out a song-- I blame the leadership that allows it to happen.
Angie, you beat me to it. I was going to mention how God used women in positions of authority quite often in the old Testament. The Bible is full of strong women, shining examples of what God wants us to be. They wouldn't be in there unless we were to take valuable lessons from it.
I have a question regarding the whole job and secular college thing (more rhetorical than anything else lol). I understand why secular college was forbidden - there are a lot of classes that teach things contrary to God's word. I plan on becoming a midwife. I wonder what NTCC's stance would be if I went to the Seattle School of Midwifery. Nothing is taught that does not directly related to taking care of women throughout pregnancy and prenatal and postpartum care for the first 6 weeks, so no God-bashing. Quite the opposite, in fact, since they teach that women's bodies were created in such a way as to give birth, and that it's natural, etc. So, back to my question here... If I went to the SSM, and then opened a practice purely for the benefit of NTCC women who wish to live a natural, drug-free birth and give birth the way God intended for us, I wonder if I'd still be bashed and ridiculed from the pulpit. The Bible talks about midwives... can't I be one too?
Thoughts? haha (you don't have to respond, just pointing out that NTCC would most likely not think I was a true Christian if I held a job as a midwife, even if my only clientele were church members and minister's wives)
JM
Vic and Edna used a midwife for both of their kids, so he should have some insight.
Casey
JM: You know my feelings about women working. The NTCC has it all wrong and it is just that simple. I have expounded on that subject extensively and there are NO scriptures that state a woman can not get paid to work. Period. You could be a nurse, midwife, doctor or work any other LEGAL profession. The Bible do not say otherwise. That is just NTCC's DELIBERATE miss-interpretation of one scripture in the New Testament. The NTCC does that because they want to maintain control over their people and more specifically over their women.
People that sin also need medical care and folks qualified to help mothers give birth to their children. The bible says that we should do good unto ALL men. Christ taught that we should love people and he didn't just say to love people who think they are Christians. There are a whole bunch of people in the NTCC who think they are Christians but they don't act like it. They are inconsiderate people who use their fellow man for gain.
Once again that is why RWD teaches to have so many church services each week. He teaches that so his pastors can bring in more money and he has said it openly in conference. Quote "If you don't have enough money coming in don't come to us if you are not holding a full schedule of services."
So what was he saying? Have more services so that you can take up more offerings and your people can give even MORE money. That whole mentality stinks. Notice I keep driving this SAME point home because I want folks to think about it.
Jeff
JM,
I always wondered aloud too, what would happen to certain women only professions in a perfect "NTCC World".
I have heard them make off comments about men who want to be nurses or cosmetologists.
WTE
God places the burden on the man's shoulders to be the high priest of his house.
Also in positions of authority. If a man is a coward and is not going to step up to the plate "deadbeat Christian) then God will raise up a women to get His point and message across.
Women are better than men in some respects, I will leave that to your discrection to interpret.
Plus It is great to have someone to huddle up to on a cold winter night!!!!!
Bro Johnson
Bro Johnson said…
Plus It is great to have someone to huddle up to on a cold winter night!!!!!
LTravis said…
That's funny you said huddle did you mean cuddle? There is a big difference. lol…
"Vic and Edna used a midwife for both of their kids, so he should have some insight."
Actually, we used a midwife for my son, after Edna had a bad hospital experience with Nicole. Here is what "The Whirlwind" (aka Michael C. Kekel) had to say about it when he was posting on FACTnet as an anonymous coward:
"Refusing doctors, and electing to use a mid-wife he put his own child at risk and welcomed a complicated pregnancy."
Total BS. The midwife we dealt with had done over 500 deliveries, would not accept complicated pregnancies, and required prenatal visits to an OB/GYN. She did an outstanding job, evidenced by the fact that Carl will be 25 this September.
The NTCC leadership in general, and Mike in particular, are full of crap. We had a great home birth experience, and saved a bunch of money doing it. They just couldn't stand the idea that we would do something unorthodox; it rattles their cage when people don't act like clones.
It is quite interesting that you guys are talking about women inside the ntcc because just last conference rwd talked about this subject. He reiterated that women should be staying at home and that he rather be sitting in a wooden crate.......(you all know the rest of this saying)than having his wife on a job.
As for somebody saying that he (rwd)danced, maybe he was happy that tracy took off her blog in the middle of conference.
God works in mysterious ways.
Kekel should read the book "Born in the USA" and get his facts about the safety of having a surgeon "deliver" a baby verses a midwife attending a birth. He'd never again suggest to ANYONE that chosing a midwife puts a baby at risk. He is no better than the American college of obstetrics and gynecology equating home-births with child abuse at it's earliest form, even though the abuses mothers and babies suffer in the hospitals every day is absolutely atrocious.
Okay, getting off my high horse now lol
JM
To Anon 1:55pm,
Tracy may have taken her blog down, but the truth still stands in our hearts and minds!
Davis would rather be in a wood crate than have his wife work. Thats right he would rather for YOUR wife to work....ie soul win countless hours, baby sitting, house cleaning other peoples homes etc, etc
WTE
I would rather be in a wood crate than lie to church folks by saying that the bible teaches that women are not lawfully allowed to work.
I would also rather have money because my wife and I earned it verses accumulating all my wealth at my church members expense.
I would rather be in a crate than watch a substantial number of people in my church remain broke because one of my teachings is that women can't work to help her hard working husband dig his family out of a financial mess that my church put them in.
Jeff
ladies that are still stuck in ntcc. I would plead with you. Not to take your frustation out,on your husband. You may think he is the only one you got to talk to. But your hurting your relationship by doing so.
Find someone else to express your frustation.
I know this. Because I stayed in ntcc to keep my marriage in tack. Yes,my hubby was the one that got most of my grief. Alot he took personally.
And now that we are out. He is debating on divorcing me. And nothing I can say will make him stay. He wants to be happy and since alot of our marriage was not happy. Due to our life in ntcc. Falling into bad habits.
Do not stay in ntcc to hold your marriage together. I have since found out,my DH stayed to keep his marriage together. So we were both unhappy. And it came out in our words and actions.
He is not realizing we can be happy. And learn to be a closer relationship.
Get out!
Anon above,
Seek Marriage counseling immediately! Even if you go by yourself!
Anonymous said (pdq slightly edited)..."It is quite interesting that you guys are talking about women inside the NTCC because just last conference RWD talked about this subject. He reiterated that women should be staying at home and that he would rather be sitting on a wooden crate...(you all know the rest of this saying)…than having his wife on a job."
This is another proof NTCC has not changed in any substantive way. NTCC is still rife with hypocrisy. Pastor Davis’ wife, Verna, has worked on a job since he founded NTCoG/NTCC (not continually, and not lately). Outwardly Holy women clean Pastor Davis Mansion. His daughter works on a job, and has for decades. Outwardly Holy women clean his daughters Mansion. Many other married women in the church organization Pastor Davis personally founded and runs work secular paying jobs; with Pastor Davis full knowledge and approval…even the wife of some Pastors.
And what about another of many NTCC 'policy' loopholes...Volunteering is OK. Even though you do the same things you would for a paying job, and have set foot outside of your own house to do it.
What about soul-winning? Has soul-winning been reduced, by NTCC, to the status of an unpaid job? After all, it is mandatory, or else you will be fired from NTCC.
Then there is the job of attending church at NTCC to the degree they require, i.e. attend every service and event (6 total per week). Attending NTCC is a job when the amount of hours that are required to be dedicated is considered. Let's do some math (for one week) for the man and woman with children…shall we?:
• 2 hours X 6 = 12 …Getting herself and child(ren) bathed and dressed in NTCC approved church clothes. (subtract half if you have no children, add one hour if you curl your hair) Before she does this, she will have cooked what amounts to a Sunday dinner each day, because this is what an NTCC approved housewife does. She also cooks a substantial breakfast, and packs a noteworthy lunch for her husband and children (if school age). But, we will not count this, because a family needs to eat regardless of where they go afterward.
• 1 hour X 6 = 6…Driving to church. (double this if you pick ‘contacts’ up for church)
• 2 hours X 5 = 10…Church service. (services are only mandated for one mandatory hour, but you have to get there early, and for various reasons, it takes a while to leave once you are there)
• 1 hour (minimum) X 4 = …Fellowship (if a minister of NTCC), otherwise 2 hours total per week. If you don’t show up you will hear about it sooner or later.
• 5 hours…Mandatory Saturday soul-winning. (counting the ‘tactics meeting’ and ‘documentation meetings’)
• 1 hour X 6 = 6…Driving home (double if you take ‘contacts’ home after church).
• 1 hour…Average time spent standing in line each week, to get permission from Rev. Kekel. (subtract half if you do not have kids) Deduct any time using a phone for this.
44 hours/week…TOTAL:
And you even get to pay NTCC to ‘work’ this amount of time for them. Mandatory tithe, NTCC mandated offerings, you pay for the gas, an NTCC approved wardrobe, food at the fellowship hall during fellowship, etc…So add 4 hours pay for tithe (10 % of 40 hours), 2 hours pay for offerings (a guestimate of 5% of 40 hours), 5 hours pay for gasoline, 2 hours pay per week to get and maintain an NTCC approved wardrobe, etc.
57 hours/week…NEW TOTAL for hours of paying income your family is denied by NTCC.
So the NTCC family is not only denied the income of a second job holder, but is denied the benefit of much additional money the husband actually makes, by what they must spend on all of NTCC’s mandatory requirements.
How about the mandatory conferences, which entail the direct expense, plus the loss of pay for taking time off from work (or getting fired for going)?
Do you clean the leadership’s mansions, wash and wax their cars (the men do this), polish their shoes (the men do this), watch their kids, fertilize and cut their lawn (the men do this), iron their clothes? Then add more hours for unpaid/underpaid labor.
Do you teach in the Church Sunday school, work in the Church nursery, work cooking in the fellowship hall, stand guard around NTCC’s many real estate holdings (the single men do this), etc.? Add more hours for unpaid/underpaid labor.
Of course it is easy for Pastor Davis to get caught up in his own self righteous indignation, and make these recurring pronouncements since he is rich beyond belief (so rich it strains credulity), and therefore doesn’t need income from Verna’s paid labor), when compared with everyone else in NTCC. Except when compared with the wealth of Pastor Davis own son-in-law…Rev. Kekel (who married Pastor Davis only child when she was 16, and Rev. Kekel was 26).
This brings another question to mind…Since Pastor Davis doesn’t need income from Verna’s paid labor, why does he need ours?
Your In Him,
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
pdq: You assessment differed from mine. Here was mine. Certainly not a debate, just a comparison of notes.
Mike Kekel also talks about giving 3 hours for soulwinning out of 168 hours that exist in a week, and that approach is once again deliberately "Manipulative" Mike. Lets take a look at the 168 hours as if it is all free time. Estimated time may very: 7 hours a day for sleep = 49, 8 hours a day for work = 40, 1.5 hours a day just to drive back and forth for work = 7.5 and for many folks that is a conservative estimate, 2 more hours a day and this includes all meals to feed your face and feed your kids = 14, 1.5 hours a day times 5 just driving back in forth to all the NTCC church services and this is conservative because you can't forget all the folks that you always wanted us to pick up for church = 7.5, yard work for those of us that have to take care of our own yards that haven't been told by you to sell our house to move all over the nation unlike you = 2, being in church in the NTCC = approx 6 hours a week and that is conservative Mike after all the stuff that the NTCC would have you do and for most folks it probably = 10 hours. Lets add this up. 10+ 2+ 7.5+ 14+ 7.5+ 40+ 49= 130 and that was a very conservative estimate because add another 1 hour for sleep or figure in school time and school work if you are in the bible school and you would easily come to over 140 or even 150 hours spent a week before you even thought about soul winning. I just took a hugh chunk out of that 168 so you need to stop, as you said, "GUILT TRIPPING" folks into soul winning because that is exactly what you just did when you talked about 3 out of 168. It was a manipulative guilt trip tactic and you are just as bad as the ministers that you mentioned when you used that tactic Mike.
Jeff
CORRECTION:
• 2 hours X 4 = 8 (vice 2 hours X 5 = 10)…Church service. (services are only mandated for one mandatory hour, but you have to get there early, and for various reasons, it takes a while to leave once you are there)
• 1.5 hours (didn't include this before)…Bible Study. (Bible Study is only mandated for a mandatory one half hour, but you have to get there early, and for various reasons, it takes a while to leave once you are there)
43.5 hours/week…TOTAL
Jeff,
I remember when you first posted what you shared above. I would say you and I are in complete agreement, we just approached expressing ourselves from different angles. Which only adds more credibility to our combined witness.
My point is (as I know you, and anyone else who bothers to read any of this, gets), attending NTCC to the degree required by them exactly correlates to working a full time job for the women, and much more for the man, who already works off the homestead for 40 plus hours.
If we combined the statistics from our posts, I would not be surprised if the total amount of hours would be very close to 168.
Call you soon,
pdq
you know the part that really burns me????
i have a construction company of my own and we have to not only pay our employees but provide insurance and workmans compensation, which adds up to an insane amount of money...but they earned it (most of the time)
ntcc on the other hand has their employees paying THEM!!!! thats the insane part of the whole thing
if i could somehow pull that off i would be rich beyond belief as well!!
t
but then i would have to ignore my conscience and harden my heart against God and turn away from him (all while keeping up an appearance of being "holy")
nah, i would rather walk with God and go to heaven even though suffering here on earth
oh well, to each his own
to you younger guys who have been sucked into this money making scheme of Davis/Kekel - RUN AWAY!!!! get out now before you wake up in your 40's and find out you have no money, no home, no career, and possibly no family
stop wasting your time and stop building Kekel's kingdom- he does not love you, he despises you, if you don't believe me, then cross him and see how he responds
t
t said...
ntcc on the other hand has their employees paying THEM!!!! thats the insane part of the whole thing
if i could somehow pull that off i would be rich beyond belief as well!!
Jeff said...
exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is insane when you think about it.
My conscience would have a hard time with that one also.
Jeff
Avoid NTCC like the plague.
UNCLEAN!!! UNCLEAN!!!
HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TO ALL MOMS!!
BRO Johnson
And if you're in the Graham choir or band, add another few hours a week of practice.
ANON,
Now that is really funny!
I thought we as Christians should be ready to give an account of the Gospel of Christ and how Christ has changed our lives at the drop of a hat.
NTCC folks should be ready to sing at a moments notice, no need for extra practice!!
Let's all be Super Spiritual like Olson and be careful not to step on an inured fly's wings but very carefully pick up the injured fly, and place it in a secret location -
Like Kekel's office (WARNING - you might be surprised what you find when you shine an infrared light in there)
to allow the fly the time to recover from it's injuries.
We would not want to hurt God's creation, would we, as He "owns the cattle on a thousand hills" and knows "all the hairs on our brow"
MLJ
What's the deal with R. W Davis and M.C. Kekel and the rest of the so called pastors.
Are they too afraid to revel their first names?
Oh I get it - it allows the preachers to remain Anonymous or Strictly Anonymous.
I'm glad Jesus is not Anonymous. Could you imagine? J. Christ, or J. C. Superstar??
With Jesus, Everyone has an identity. Anonymous people go to hell every day. There is no Anonymous people going to Heaven. I want my name written on the Lambs book of life SPELLED OUT.
Bro Michael L. Johnson, or M.L. Johnson or MLJ or just Brother Johnson!!!!!!!!!!!
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