To the left is a picture of RWD taking off with all your hard earned cash. Jeff wrote...
This is the type of treatment you can expect to receive from R.W. Davis, AKA (RDUB) or (RWD) if you are a pastor in the New Testament Christian Church.
M.D. Reed a former NTCC pastor wrote....
When I arrived at the church in Killeen, TX, back in '05, I found that the buildings were dilapidated and literally falling apart! I made a call to RWD and he upbraided me, saying, all I want to do is spend money. I told him, sir, that's not true. I just see big needs down here and I want to correct them. I told him, I'll do the work, if you'll clear the expense". His statement to me was, "Well, how much money do you have in your general fund?" Well, that ended that conversation.
I was a little discouraged at this point because I was embarrassed to invite people to a place where the shingles were coming off the roofs, the parking lot was full of holes, the siding was rotting off the buildings, and the sign was falling apart and had a crooked cross on top. I was so ashamed and thought, Graham doesn't look like this.
The NTCC leaders have always taught that the churches should be an example to the community in appearance. Killeen was just flat out ugly and had been let go at this point in time.
So when I made my next escrow deposit, I calmly asked the teller, would you please write down the balance of this account so I can check it against my books? My books said zero. She started writing and just kept right on writing! The figure that she wrote down about knocked me on my "donkey"! A little redneck lingo there for ya! She wrote down the sum of $279,000.00.
My first thought was what "your pastor" said to me on the phone, "How much do you have in your GF?" So I couldn't wait to get in my van and make the call. I said to "your" pastor", Sir, there's $279,000 in the escrow here. We could build a whole new complex. All I want to do is make some repairs. He very sternly said to me, "Reed, that's not your money." I said, Sir, I know that. All I want to do fix this church up. It's not for me.
Two years went by and one day out of the blue, I got a phone call, Reed, we're going to do some work down there. I thought to myself, this is so typical. He's got it set up that he looks like the big savior coming on the scene, and lets the local pastor know who's really in charge. I thought, well, at least the buildings are going to get fixed now.
BTW, during our time in Killeen, we did take up special offerings for a brand new piano and church sign. Many times in my infamous "career" with NTCC
Jeff said...
It's crying shame and a recurring practice for New Testament Christian Church pastors to take up special offerings for keyboards and church signs when it's been proven that substantial amounts of money exist in the churches escrow accounts. For the record: I don't blame the individual church pastors as long as they get a conscience sooner than later and stop doing it. You pastors need to get control of these escrow accounts and stop allowing the NTCC leadership to motivate you to play these "crook" games. Stop bleeding your people every time you need money and start holding RWD's feet to the fire to come off the orgs cash or you should leave. I've read too many stories where church pastors have tried to use their church funds only to get shot down by the New Testament Christian Church leadership and more specifically RDUB the swindler. This is why I don't blame the church pastors, but the word is out now so ignorance ain't going to work when you stand before God. Man the most basic of fundamentals in Christianity is to love they neighbor. How can you claim to love them when you knowingly take their money when it's not even needed? Would you want them to do that to you? You don't think church members need money also? What if I went to my pastor and asked for help paying my mortgage when I knew I had ten times the amount needed to take care of it? What do you think he'd call me if he found out? A crook and a swindler. Well that is R.W. Davis and Kekel and Olson and the whole general board. RDUB has taught them how to be crooks and now they think is just "good business"; well it's not. Church members are being taken advantage of. NTCC pastors have told me, "well you got to have a back up fund". Rubbish.
Have RWD and Kekel stop living like Kings and there is your back up fund. Sell all the RV's and drive like normal people and there is your back up fund. RDUB is a crook. If you've ever given money to the NTCC (like I did) for things like church signs, (like I did) then you got taken to the cleaners. You got bamboozled, hoodwinked, and the big flim flam. The NTCC leadership will absolutely take up special offerings and raise money to pay for expensive church upgrades when substantial amounts of money already exist in the church accounts.
For those of you who don't understand what I'm saying let me spell it out for ya. It's like your child coming to you and asking for yet more money to attend a field trip, when you've already given your child the money and more than was needed in the first place. Then you give them the extra money that they asked for, just to find out that they had more than enough money which they never even used. Do you get it now? This has happened over and over again in the NTCC. I wrote a check for $150 to pitch in for a church sign when I now know that without doubt the NTCC had more than enough money for 1000 church signs 50 times over. To make a long story short, they'd rather spend your money than theirs, and guys like me were stupid enough to keep kicking it out. You are a flat out idiot if you keep giving money to the NTCC now that you know the obvious. The NTCC leadership USES people and it's just that simple. They'd let you give your last dime before they'd part with their millions and then they claim that it was your duty and you really should have given more.
The NTCC sucks.
Jeff
405 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 405 Newer› Newest»First reed is one man accusing another man. He made promises to me when he took my money that he did not keep nor could he have intended to keep. If I have to believe someone I will believe the person who has been a part of my life not the person simply associated with it. Not only that biblical I am not to receive an accusation against an elder unless it be by two or three witnesses. Did anyone here see the card reed said had my name in it? No ? Well the I have a peers word against an elder so you who claim to still follow the bible please tell me what you would do and who you would believe.
ANON SAID
True, nobody "made us" do anything, but the teachings and psychological manipulation kept us whipped into shape to not accept any evil report about any leader
RB SAYS
As I said before there is a biblical requirment that has nothing to do with psychological manipulation. If you can bring some witnesses that have credibility then yes I would listen. And again you presupose that I Don't have issues. But this is not the way to air issues. To date, the people on this blog that come from the ministerial ranks have not, in my own estimation, been of stellar character. That was my point with bringing up Reed's attempt to gain favor with Pastor at the expense of others - such as myself. He could ask for money from me, but he couldn't acknowledge my part. Small I know, so small that I can't understand his exclusion unless it was to make himself look that much better because of false impressions (i.e. that he gave such a large amount all on his own).
Others have issues that I don't think I need to get into here unless it becomes necessary. Brin forward someone with credibility.
But people like that will not air their greivance on a blog. I would be willing to listen but if there are issues worthy of my ear, or anyone elses for that matter, lets bring it to the church as we are instructed in scripture and not before the world.
RB said...
Don you hit the nail on the head People made their kids do things. People NOT the organization.
Jeff said...
You are using semantics Sir. Oh sure, the organization couldn't literally "make" anyone do anything but I'll tell you what they could and did do. They could make your life miserable and blast you every chance they got from the pulpit. They could say you weren't saved and you were on your way to hell and you were rebellious because you didn't follow their guidance. They could act cold as ice and they could treat you like you weren't "IN" yet while treating you like an outsider. These are the things they could do and these are the things they did do. The could say that you refused to follow their leadership and guidance and there was the door!!!! That is exactly what happened to me and my wife which is why we went out through the door and didn't come back!!!
Pastor Briggs, you are not right. I really believe you know better and I'm convinced where this subject is concerned that you are being totally disingenuous and acting with deceit. Yes they could make you do things or they made your life hell while suggesting that if you didn't like it you could leave. Don't put it on us Pastor Briggs. I'm not the one who dreamed up rules like males not being allowed to wear shorts just to learn that Grant Kekel had been allowed to wear them. I'm not the one who dreamed up the rule that girls are only allowed to wear dresses, even in gym class just to find out that Hunts wife wears spandex tights to a public gym on a military installation.
These rules were not our idea. They were your organization's idea and they made sure we adhered to them or we had to hear about it.
Just because you conveniently decided to ignore the rules that you didn't agree with didn't mean the rest of us did the same. I would have felt like a hypocrite If I'd done that. So when I knew that I could no longer support the NTCCs mandates, I left their church for good. I didn't just stick around and break their rules when ever it pleased me.
Jeff
"I would be willing to listen but if there are issues worthy of my ear, or anyone elses for that matter, lets bring it to the church as we are instructed in scripture and not before the world."
These issues have been brought before RW ad nauseum; his typical response is "I was here before you; if you don't like it, there's the door." At some point, one finally (if he isn't in denial) realizes that this "apostle" doesn't merit the title he's bestowed upon himself, and represents a danger to others, who should have the courtesy of a warning. "Bringing it before the church" sounds real spiritual, until you realize that, in the case of NTCC, RW constitutes the will of the church and has absolute authority in every area. Great, I'm going to complain to the fox about him raiding the henhouse. That should really get some action.
RB said...
Well the I have a peers word against an elder so you who claim to still follow the bible please tell me what you would do and who you would believe.
Jeff said...
I know what your elders are all about so there is no way I'd believe them. Kekel, RWD and Olson are all liars. Ashmore is abusive and Jones is a yes man. Kinson deliberately introduced compromise with the whole DVD thing. Now what I know now about the NTCC, there is no way I'd trust your elders. I've read what Mike Kekel written many time and also what Olson has written. You can't trust either one of them. I've heard RWD say one thing and watched him do the exact opposite. I listened to Ashmore do no more one evening than talk about other churches while claiming that his church was the way to go.
Now I don't know what happened with whole gift deal and whether or not your name was left off the card. To me that is pretty petty which ever way it went and the act of leaving your name off the card (whether that happened or not) doesn't even compare to all the hideous crimes against humanity that your leadership has committed. They've deliberately broke up marriages because one of the two didn't want to be in your church. They've ruthlessly dished out verbal abuse during service to church members who didn't agree with them. They've instructed church members to forsake their entire family just to tell them where they could find the door so that the church member was not only on the outs with them but their biological family members as well. The NTCC is one wicked organization and as an organization they do more harm to mankind then they will ever do good.
Jeff
Time will tell jeff time will tell.
I
Vic said...
Great, I'm going to complain to the fox about him raiding the henhouse. That should really get some action.
Jeff said...
Vic: Pastor Briggs knows that. I really believe that he is not being sincere with this one. Every time I brought something before that NTCC leadership, nothing was ever done of any substance.
Here is what RDUB said. "If you have a problem with one of my pastors you have a problem with me and if you have a problem with me you have a problem with God".
Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. I heard RWD say it with my own ears. So who in the world are you going to take your problems to in the NTCC? No one, because they won't do jack but blacklist the one who brings up the problem. Pastor Briggs is absolutely being disingenuous on this one. Pastor Briggs: You can't possibly believe what you've written will work with the NTCC. I know that you know better.
So tell me. If I want to complain and bring an accusation against RWD who do I go to? Olson won't do jack because he is a crook. Kekel won't do jack because RDUB is his daddy. Kinson and Jones won't do jack because they are yes men. You plan would be unless in the NTCC and you know it. So guess what. None of us to include M. Reed owes anyone in the NTCC the benefit of going before two or three witnesses. If they were just men then yeah, that would work but they are not.
Not only that we have three witnesses here who can attest to all the wickedness surrounding the NTCC leadership. Me, Vic and M. Reed. You don't trust us and we don't trust them and you don't deserve anymore trust then you give us. You don't automatically get trusted just because you wear the title of "Pastor". This world is full of crooked "Pastors". In fact I'd say the percentage of crooked pastors is as high as crooked salesman and crooked lawyers. Maybe ever more so. People generally have their guard up with lawyers and salesmen. They let their guard down with pastors and that is when they really get took.
Jeff
Don,
I also refused to wear shorts for PT, because of what NTCC teaches. So I wore sweats (top and bottoms) year round.
Gregory
No one can whistle a symphony. It takes a whole orchestra to play it. ~H.E. Luccock
I am not trying to spam you I am trying to say something through some quotes that I think say it all
if you want me to stop I will and I will do it for long!
"Leadership must be based on goodwill. Goodwill does not mean posturing and, least of all, pandering to the mob. It means obvious and wholehearted commitment to helping followers. We are tired of leaders we fear, tired of leaders we love, and of tired of leaders who let us take liberties with them. What we need for leaders are men of the heart who are so helpful that they, in effect, do away with the need of their jobs. But leaders like that are never out of a job, never out of followers. Strange as it sounds, great leaders gain authority by giving it away."
— Admiral James B. Stockdale
Each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible.
Viktor E. Frankl
It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare - Edmund Burke
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."
- Edmund Burke
Do you understand?
Jeff your living in a fantasy world when you say people let their gaurd down with Pastor's. If that were the case churche's like ours would be teeming with people. No one is under as much scrutiny in this world as is a clergyman.
Vic and Jeff,
First I went (1 witness), then Deborah and I (2 witnesses) went to Pastor Davis, Rev. Olson, and Rev. Kekel (through witnessed/recorded phone calls, registered letters, IM's, and emails; all of which I still have), and nothing ever came of it (other than NTCC eventually stopped renewing my license--for reasons still unclear, calls to Deborah from Verna and Tanya trying to convince Deborah to leave me, a severely damaged relationship between us and Becky [caused directly by Rev. Kekel], and Becky trying to sow discord between me and my mother-in-Law).
We even offered to meet with the board in Graham if they would pay our way, and let us record the proceedings.
I even sent them (Deborah, Becky, Rev. Kekel, and Tanya) a generic ("If I've done anything wrong, or anything to offend...yadda, yadda, yadda.") Pastor Davis style apology email. All to no avail.
Because of the leadership's (and their spouse's) conduct, Deborah decided to submit her Minister's resignation. I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, and plenty of time to work through all this (because there is a process contained in their bylaws--which they didn't follow), so I kept sending in my Ordained Minister's License renewal fee, until they eventually stopped renewing it.
During all this they even offered me a Pastorate (I didn't feel lead to take it, of course I had been told to go to every other work I was assigned, but not in this one instance), and intimated I could even possibly teach at the Seminary.
I never left NTCC.
So, we are in the going before the church stage with these blogs. We did just like it says in Matthew 18:15-17.
Note: If Rev. Bellamy and Pastor Briggs get to keep their license, I should be able to renew mine (I may try next year).
Gregory
CORRECTION: We are in the "...let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
My bad...I will try to be more careful.
Gregory
"Reed did what all those that leave say they will NOT do, trash NTCC. They all do it"
ya well, the Reed's have certainty been thrown under the bus haven't they? Funny how where you go to church determines a friendship.... All of you who are trash talking the Reeds never would have if they had never left. And I know the trash talking of the Reeds started before they started sharing their experiences with the world.
I have seen their lives on personal and ministry levels... there are few who are more genuine in their love for people or Christ.
And to the bible school boy.. 3 years? Really? And I bet all your experience with ntcc is in Graham too.... wait till you get married, get graduated, get in a work, have kids, and try to live in the real world... outside of "goshen." See what the life of a ntcc minister is really like. Then come back and tell the Reed's that God didn't direct them to leave.
As far as $$ goes... if you are giving unto the Lord than you are doing nothing wrong but, cursed are the ones who misappropriate $$ that is supposed to be used for the Lord's work.. not that ministers shouldn't be taken care of but, from what I've seen and heard a lot of the "men of God" are living large. They give some of those TV evangelists (Benny Henn for example has a Rolex for every day of the week) a run for their $$. So the giver is doing nothing wrong but, why would you want to continue to put your money there? That is what you are sowing into. YOu reap what you sow. If you are sowing into lies, manipulation and destruction than that is what you are going to reap. I don't think Jeff or anyone else is saying don't tithe or give in offerings but, consider how that $$ is being used when it is supposed to be for the work of the Lord. Give your tithes and offerings to a church or organization that is really working for the Lord. Reaching out to the community and really taking care of it's pastors,as well as music ministers, and children's ministers(all things very belittled by ntcc don't get me started on their attitude towards kids and music).
ok guess that's enough for now.
No anon your wrong. I gave reed an invitation to talk privately he chose not to accept and gave me no choice. There was no reason that I had to confront him until he came on here and tried to be a poster boy. He above all has a large body of ex members that can not believe his actions here knowing what they know about his leadership. I should know I've talked to some
RB: "To date, the people on this blog that come from the ministerial ranks have not, in my own estimation, been of stellar character."
In my estimation, the men spoken of on this blog are thought to be of less than stellar character by RB because, firstly, they are no longer with ntcc. Unless you were there, you don't know what these men tried to bring to light while a part of ntcc with witnesses present.
Secondly, these men are willing to bring to light a serious pattern of abuses within the ntcc leadership in a public forum. This, in many cases, is their last resort, having tried to change things from within and hit a brick wall.
There are examples of how more than one of these men tried to bring issues of abuse and un-Christlike practices before the leadership, with witnesses, and were scoffed at.
If the ntcc board existed as more than a group of yes men, I believe many of the issues spoken of here would have been dealt with, adjustments would have been made, and this public forum might not even exist. This is their only voice, and using the Scripture of two or three witnesses is being taken out of context at this stage of the game.
I would take this one step further and say, if many of the issues brought to the attention of leadership had been addressed in a truly Biblical way, some of these men might still be part of ntcc. That's the saddest part of all, not that men of less than stellar character have left ntcc, but a lot of good men have had to make the choice to leave rather than align themselves with what they regarded as sin.
Hello, RB! Well, I was going to address all of your issues with me, but you have saved me a lot of time and effort. You've made it clear that you don't believe me, so I see no further need of dialogue with you.
I must say that you are very clever in taking what is shared here and making it all about you.
Make no mistake about it, the only reason I took up that offering for the rifle was because of your pastor manipulating the whole thing. As the finances came in from each contributor, their name was written on a piece of paper and then transfered to the card by me. My wife saw the card, as did Rev. Smart. That's the last you'll hear from me.
mdr
RB: "To date, the people on this blog that come from the ministerial ranks have not, in my own estimation, been of stellar character."
In my estimation, the men spoken of on this blog are thought to be of less than stellar character by RB because, firstly, they are no longer with ntcc. Unless you were there, you don't know what these men tried to address while a part of ntcc with witnesses present.
Secondly, these men are willing to bring to light a serious pattern of abuses within the ntcc leadership in a public forum. This, in many cases, is their last resort, having tried to deal with things from within and hit a brick wall.
There are examples of how more than one of these men tried to bring issues of abuse and un-Christlike practices before the leadership, with witnesses, and were scoffed at.
If the ntcc board existed as more than a group of yes men, I believe many of the issues spoken of here would have been dealt with, adjustments would have been made, and this public forum might not even exist. This is their only voice, and using the Scripture of two or three witnesses is being taken out of context at this stage of the game.
I would take this one step further and say, if many of the issues brought to the attention of leadership had been addressed in a truly Biblical way, some of these men might still be part of ntcc. That's the saddest part of all, not that men of less than stellar character have left ntcc, but a lot of good men have had to make the choice to leave rather than align themselves with what they regarded as sin or un-Godliness.
Briggs said...
"No one is under as much scrutiny in this world as is a clergyman."
Kris said...
Here's a quote for ya: "A sucker is born every minute."
Yes, people STILL do let their guard down to clergy, Briggs. Google "cults" sometime and try and see how many people belong to some of the most outlandish cults today. People use people for sex and worship in all kinds of cults. And people just flock to them. You are the one living in an uneducated fantasy world, or you are simply being insincere as Jeff posited.
Don and Ange said...
MDR said:
"My wife saw the card, as did Rev. Smart. That's the last you'll hear from me."
Don and Ange said:
That looks like three witnesses to me. MDR has done everything you have requested of him briggs and yet you seem to have animosity towards him. Looking at this and trying to be unbiased as possible, it seems MDR presented his case with more facts and names to support the chain of events. You, just like the tabloids, have an unnamed source that is supposedly an elder which is supposed to mean that he is more honest than anyone, but we've seen first hand the lack of honesty with the so called ntcc elders. Why don't you get it straight from the horses mouth? You worship the dude and disregard every negative fact about him and insinuate through a bunch of quotes made by people that we are just a bunch of complainers. If it bothers you and eats away at you so bad, make the call and see if your pastor still has the card.
If he does, ask him to read the names off of it. Tell him, "Sir, I am really in a huge battle over this. It bothers me so much, that I have posted on an Xer blog about 10 times, trying to find someone to side with me. I'm unable to name my source because we are so secretive about things and in many cases it seems like we are ashamed of the things we do."
Just don't wake him up from a nap, or you'll be sorry. You wont do this and you know why you wont this? Because you know you will get jacked up and the result of that jack up session will be 10 times worse than the guilt you feel right now for falsely accusing MDR.
Don and Ange
RB said...
Jeff your living in a fantasy world when you say people let their guard down with Pastor's.
Jeff said...
Not true at all Sir, not true at all. That is precisely and exactly what happened. I saw a bunch of brother who by all outward appearances appeared to be dedicated to the Lord. The pastors appeared to be the same as well. So I said to myself, "there is no way these people would lie because all liars will have there part in the lake of fire and these people are "SAVED".
What an error in judgment that was on my part. I trusted that RWD was God man on earth because that is what his pastors said and that is how he portrayed himself. Once again, huge error. I already didn't trust people of the world (so to speak) but I figured that you had to be able to trust a Christian. So what was I doing? Letting my guard down RB and I'll guarantee that others would agree that they did the same thing exactly. Sir, you are living in a fantasy world in this case.
I trusted the New Testament Christian Church leadership just to get hoodwinked. I was speaking on RWD's behalf even after I'd left the NTCC warning my own wife not to speak so harshly against him. I had no idea how much of a crook he was until testimony after testimony after testimony after testimony after testimony came across these blogs, all by different people who had never even known each other, all saying the same thing about RWD.
So we are all lying? Not hardly. We did let your guard down. Some of NASTIEST men I've ever met in my life have been NTCC PASTORS and I'm not exaggerating. Men that completely lack common decency. Men so absorbed with the quest for money and numbers, so they can proudly send an inflated report to Graham. We trusted them until which time we could no longer ignore the obvious, but in most cases the damage had already been done by that time. I wouldn't have trusted just anyone but I was ignorantly convinced that you could trust your pastor, and how wrong I was.
Just anyone couldn't have fooled me but people who I was convinced I could trust were able to. Why were they untrustworthy? Cause they'd been to Graham. They'd been around the Kekels. They had to know the things that Grant was allowed to do but yet they still insisted that we place all kinds of restrictions on our children in an attempt to fulfill their authoritarian agenda. Had I only known what was really going on at Graham I'd of left the NTCC long before I did.
I don't care what their reasons were. I wasn't afraid to admit the obvious but NTCC pastors keep so many secrets that valuable information was hidden from us. That's right. We let our guard down Pastor Briggs and I'm not living in a fantasy world. The mistake I made was trusting those crooks because as it turns out, the NTCC in no more than a family run business which thrives on the accumulation of real estate and all that who holiness garbage was a big farce and now it's changed.
Your organization sucks.
Jeff
ANON,must think only MEN post on this blog. And work at bringing things out concerning ntcc and there cult actions!
RB calls men in ntcc a elder. what a joke. They are old men,but sure not an elder!lol
Adding to what Greg wrote. They even quit mailing the Trumpet magazine that we paid for. Our subscription was not finished, we were cheated out of our subscription. It didn't matter that we were not attending the church. We rightfully paid for that magazine.I was cut off from the NTCC Group. There was no explanation and I had been in Idaho for about 3 wks. As Greg, said, he sent letters and they were returned unopened. Tell me who has the problem?
Rev. Davis use to say, "if we can't agree on something, let's not fight against one another. You go your way and I'll go my way, and let's be Christians". But, I find this has never been the case. It's always been if you don't adhere to the rules there's the door. You call this Christian love. There is no truth in the statement he makes. It's more like stay away from us! Then you get the letter of dis-fellowship. I know I'm not the only one that's ever heard Rev. Davis make this statement. All you get is back stabbing leaders. Matt and Debbie you've been in the very presence of our former leaders. I'm sure you've heard them talk about preachers who left.
Why is it when a person leaves and they need a reference that NTCC refuses to give an answer. Being with the church for 32 yrs. with only the group and it's leaders. Then when you need references the people you know are in NTCC. Outside of the church you have no one to write down as a reference. Well, besides family, but they usually don't count. If anyone has a bad attitude it's the leaders.
We needed some important documentation in order to apply for ministerial license, so we could go on our way to continue where we felt the Lord wanted us. Writing to the Org. Greg sent a request, with a right spirit. Instead we got the registered letter returned,unopened. I don't remember if I called Becky,or wrote her, but she would not write a letter in my behalf. People wonder why we write these testimonies.
So you tell me who has the less than stellar character?
Sis Shunk
RB said...
"Don you hit the nail on the head People made their kids do things. People NOT the organization."
Don said:
RB, do you really believe that people are doing this stuff of their own free will? You are losing much of your credibility with statements like this. Do you put most of the blame for the genocide in Israel on the German soldiers who carried out orders or on Hitler who brainwashed them and gave the orders to exterminate? If you say that the German soldiers were just as much to blame as Hitler, that makes the entire ntcc organization just as bad as it's leaders. The German soldiers were not given an automatic death sentence if they refused to kill Jews but there was a lot of fear and pride instilled in the German soldiers.
We were given a spiritual and eternal death sentence if we refused to go along with ntcc's abusive ways. We were expected to shout amen, when we seen souls being trampled to death spiritually. We were told to leave people alone when they disagreed with the pastor. I've heard pastors say, "Let them die and go to hell, if that's what they want". We sat by and watched this stuff take place and we were a part of it. You rb are in a place where you can make a difference. You have heard our stories and admitted on many occasions that what we went through was not right, but now you are backsliding to a place where you are losing your civility. You are regressing to a place where you make excuses for those that exhibit abusive behavior. In your zeal to tow the company line you will undoubtedly participate in the same spiritual atrocities that your revered leaders have, but the difference is, you know the truth better than most.
When you make blame the parents for imposing ridiculous and unreasonable policies on people and cleave to the teachings of hate, fear and manipulation, you do yourself and your congregation a disservice. I really hope you will reconsider and stop mocking us with quotes such as: "No one can whistle a symphony. It takes a whole orchestra to play it". ~H.E. Luccock and other quotes. I can hear the hot iron sizzling on your conscience but it's not to late. All it will take is for rwd to get into your face one too many times and you too will realize that they are using you and people like you.
Don and Ange
Debbie Shunk said, "Matt and Debbie you've been in the very presence of our former leaders. I'm sure you've heard them talk about preachers who left."
Hi Debbie. What you have written is very true. We have heard him and other leaders talk about ministers who have left and some who are still in. Most recently, when we returned from Guam and were at his home, RWD and his wife, (who thinks I belong to them) began to talk about a family who had left the organization. RWD was gloating how bad things have befallen them. You could see the shine on his face as he proceeded to share the details. I sat there thinking, how can this man who is a "spiritual leader" seem to enjoy the hardship of people whom he supposedly loved. Then the disclaimer came. After eating them up before us all, he said, but I don't rejoice in the downfall of anybody. Puh-leeze.
mdr
When we speak out against the ntcc, we are seen as God haters and trying to prevent people from receiving the gospel. Many people receive the gospel every day in many churches. We warn people about the ntcc because they have shown an extreme pattern of abuse towards many and what they do on a daily basis is hypocritical and un-Christlike.
So many share their stories here and we are reminded that we are not alone. We are many and we have endured so much unnecessary treatment and harassment throughout the years. Those that were in the ministry for years like the Shunks, the Reeds and many others have been done wrong without a cause. If heaven is a place only reserved for the hypocrites in the ntcc, we are of all men most miserable. I was asked recently, something to the effect of, "Where does our responsibility end and Grace take over"? I have been asking myself that a lot lately and while I know that I'm a Christian, I also consider myself not to have all the answers and that I have a very long way to go in this walk. But what I do believe is that God is not sitting in heaven with the same attitude as the leaders in the ntcc, looking down on us and saying you must treat your family like dirt for my sake. I don't believe that God looks at an organization that adds to His word by making unreasonable policies and expecting people to follow them is okay and pleasing to God. I don't believe that God looks at the outward appearance of a man or a woman and thinks that they are less of a Christian then anyone else. I think that Grace takes over where all the rules of the law could not make us right before God. I think that God gives us salvation as a gift and gives us hope and His word as a guide. We have to make decisions and we are responsible for keeping things in the right perspective but God's grace trumps all of the bogus restrictions and rules that the ntcc impose on peoples lives. It's a simple plan and people make it so difficult.
I think people in the ntcc put God in a box. They say this is the only way a person will ever make it to heaven. It's cut and dry, black and white, my way or the highway. I personally think that is a bunch of garbage. God can save anyone He wants to save. He can do anything He wants to, He's God, after all. My heart requires a whole bunch of mercy and grace, and I speak from the experiences that I have gone through. Legalism has never worked throughout history. The ntcc wants you to think through a bunch of small and subtle changes to God's word that they have found the only way into heaven. There are requirements and responsibilities but if the ntcc gets to dictate them to us and make them up along the way then we will expose them for it.
Who knows maybe I'm wrong; we all have opinions but I just believe that God has intended for us to have freedom in this life and that happiness and salvation outside of the ntcc is not too much to ask. Is the ntcc right in their doctrine but wrong in their double standards? I believe much of what they teach is a stretch. While many of their teachings are straight from the bible we still are given the responsibility to rightly divide the word of truth. I really believe that if you pray and read and do your best to love God and your neighbor you will have a much better chance of making it to heaven than by following the ntcc's dogmatic rules.
Don and Ange
MDR said:
"Most recently, when we returned from Guam and were at his home, RWD and his wife, (who thinks I belong to them) began to talk about a family who had left the organization. RWD was gloating how bad things have befallen them."
Don and Ange said:
That is precisely the way in which they set up their organization, so that those that leave will have huge obstacles to overcome. You leave with nothing but a swift kick in the butt on your way out. You will be talked about and degraded from that point on. You will never be given any letters of recommendation, any valid explanation for why they ran you off or anything that will help you in your life outside of the ntcc. They want you to fail when you leave and that is how the ntcc is set up. They want you to think that you are without hope for all eternity. How sick is that?
Don and Ange
Sis Shunk...
Then when you need references the people you know are in NTCC.
Jeff said...
I never thought of that one. Wow. Thats right. How in the world are you supposed to get references when you were with one group for 32 years who no longer want anything to do with you? That is so sad. Hey Deb, if you ever need a reference you can use me. I knew you for long enough. My background is pretty solid and I'm currently serving in a high profile position with a lot of responsibility. I would think that I'd be a fairly good reference. Wow the NTCC really does mess people up. It never ends. You spend all that time with them and you can't even use them as a reference.
That is amazing. The NTCC is capable of messing up someone's life as bad as I've ever seen. The NTCC is like a communist group existing within the boundaries of the U.S. Listen people and I can't emphasize this enough. You are making a huge mistake if you are still involved with the NTCC. If you can escape from the NTCC you should do it as quickly as possible.
Jeff
Mdr said,
RWD was gloating how bad things have befallen them.
bad things happen to everyone!
does anyone remember in conference about 7 yrs ago, when the band had to move the instruments away from the opened window because it was raining on them and the lector was "hot"?
I vote that Don and Ange "yakity yakioli" go back on sabbatical permanently, their lengthy posts are tantamount to spam on this blog...
they have really brought this blog down!
Really, lower than the ntcc?
I've been thinking about Deb's message concerning references. You really should think about before you commit or stay committed to the NTCC.
1. God is not confined to the NTCC, true or false? True.
2. You can serve God outside the NTCC, true or false? True.
3. No matter who you are, it's possible that one day you could decide to leave the NTCC, true or false? True. Unless you are RWD or Verna and maybe Tanya and Mike.
4. IF you attend the NTCS, the time committed is worth nothing if you ever decide to leave the NTCC i.e. other schools don't recognize the NTCS as credible and employers don't recognize it as credible therefor it's worth nothing outside the NTCC, true or false? True.
5. If you ever leave the NTCC your time spent will be of no tangible value because the NTCC leadership will absolutely not give you any references, true or false? You decide but I think the answer is true.
Conclusion. If you dedicate years of your life to the NTCC you are absolutely gambling in a game that I suggest no one can afford to play. Why? Because you have everything to loose and nothing to gain because we've already concluded that you can serve God somewhere else where the stakes aren't so high. Think about what I'm saying people. Deb Shunk spent 32 years of her life with the NTCC serving in some of the highest possitions that a woman can serve and what does she have to show for the 32 years she dedicated? Obviously she would have to answer that question, but I would suggest that she has nothing to show for it. She has her husband but nothing else and what are you supposed to do, eat your husband for dinner when you get hungry? Ride on you husbands back when it's time to go to the store? Thank God I left the NTCC when I did. I just wish I'd left sooner. Oh well, better late than never.
Jeff
By the way, if you don't like what Don and Ange write, don't read it. Not everyone likes what I write. Don and Ange have contributed greatly to exposing the NTCC. The NTCC leadership is sneaky and secretive but Don and Ange have dug up about as many of their dead bones as anyone who ever took the time to warn folks of the dangers surrounding involvement with the NTCC.
Don and Ange are part of the program so you might as well just get used to it because unlike RWD, I do care if they leave!!! I want them to stay, so your suggestion is not supported by me and I hope that holds a little weight around here at least in Don and Ange's mind. They are my friends. We talk frequently. They're good people.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff, we both enjoy your blog and while we certainly don't intend to offend people, we are not sure who we offended and if we should even be concerned. If we have offended anyone, then we give you a blanket statement: "Sorry Pal". There... hope they feel better.
Both of us have been through a lot with this organization and we hate the ntcc. We do not hate many of the people that are in, but we hate the way that the leadership or lack thereof treats people. We will accept criticism from others if they identify themselves and let us know exactly what we say that bothers them. If you post anonymously then we will still take your words into consideration but if we do not know who or where the criticism is coming from than it's kind of hard to take it seriously. For Example, if the criticism comes from a die hard ntcc'r or a three year bible school student than it's kind of hard to care if they are offended at what we say. If it's coming from an Xer that has been fighting for the freedom of others and has some credibility, than we might take things to heart.
In the end, we are trying to help folks recover from the ntcc experience and to warn people never to get involved. If we Yak a little too much than don't bother reading our posts. You can skip past them in seconds by using your page down key.
Don and Ange
RWD using the *N* word!! WOW I wonder how many times that happened when Denis left with half his organization. lol
Hope the video didn't offend anyone. These Grannies seemed to be okay with it all, so...
Now the new, improved, Puritan approved, rated "t" for Teletubbies, Kids Spoof Wassup... Be afraid, be very afraid...
"RWD using the *N* word!! WOW I wonder how many times that happened when Denis left with half his organization. lol"
probably more than a klan rally in harlem!
Jeff said,
"By the way, if you don't like what Don and Ange write, don't read it. Not everyone likes what I write."
but what happened to shoot, communicate move on out?
Brandon cano said, (I'm not going to try to refute every reason you gave for leaving but I don't believe God led you to leave the organization)
Hello, Brandon! After reading your post, I completely understand where you are coming from. I know Jeff was a little hard on you, but there was a time in my own life, just like you, that I would have followed and defended RWD all the way to the gates of hell. I believed that he was God's man, but I had to come to grips with the truth. The truth is that in RWD's world, it's all about RWD. He has proven this to me as well as many others as he has used us and then driven us from his organization.
What I have posted on this blog really only scratches the surface in bringing to light the things that my wife and I have experienced at the cruel hands of RWD. I never understood why RWD and others in leadership show so much disdain for preachers on the field, but they do. We endured a lot of things for many years and you will find out firsthand what I am speaking of, if you make it out into the ministry; that is, of course, if you make it through BS school first, and provided that RWD is still topside of the daisies.
You addressed why I came on this blog. I told people in the past that if I ever leave NTCC, I'm not going to post on the blogs. My intention was to flip the page and start a new chapter in life, which we have done, and we are enjoying it very much. We left quietly and didn’t try to influence anybody, but somebody from Graham, who loves us very much and was very upset, contacted us and told us the things that were being said from behind the lectern. We were told that we were branded as Samson and Delilah (which is the equivalent of being called a whore and whoremonger). Then I was told I was referred to as an Absalom, to which my reply is: Which one of them is Joab?
Of course, the leadership often doesn’t use names when preaching, but even if no name is mentioned, often enough information is given to let most people know who is being talked about. What if we went to RWD and said we were wrong and we want to come back? I can hear the very next service...OK, everyone, the Reed's are back, so forget that stuff about them being whores and all...Not!
So let me ask you, Brandon, is this what leaders should say about someone who has supported them faithfully for 25+ years? Brandon, if you have the boldness to come here on this blog and chastise me, I challenge you to go up to Michael Kekel and ask him why he found it necessary to get up in my wife's face and disrespect her in the Graham church foyer. She has been nothing but an example of a Godly woman through the years, and still is by the way, and has never caused any problems. Brandon, ask yourself: is this an example of Christianity that anybody should follow?
BTW Brandon go ahead and ask Michael why he didn’t get up in my face and ask me what I'm looking at. I would have answered him, A little weasel that's what!
mdr
Brother B.
Check you email....
I checked it... Nothing was there.
Bro. Bellamy
MDR,
I can absolutely sympathize with you, Sir, about still being upset about Kekel. I just thank God I was not married until I got out of the NTCC. I would probably be going through in my mind how I would tell those people off for disrespecting my wife like I have heard NTCC leaders have done to other people's wives. I have had someone yell at my wife while I was not around and I have gone through in my mind thinking things like, how can I walk up to him with a pipe wrench in my hand and tell him to yell at ME now! Well, okay... than I have to calm down and just put it in Jesus' hands. I am sure we will both get the victory over it by God's grace. It's just that we feel very protective of our wives and when some other man talks to our wives in a way that we would not and have not talked to our wives before, we understandably get upset by that. I remember one brother, Brother Freeman, said that his wife talked to a Graham church member in church service, and then RW Davis called up HIS wife and spoke to her in that angry tone, "You leave them church folks alone!" He was also understandably upset by that. If a man wants to rebuke my wife, I'm sorry, he has to go through me. I'll tell her if I think he's right or not.
That is one more way that they violate people, by first making loyalty to leadership supreme over loyalty to your spouse, and then the leadership have the highest place in your VERY OWN HOUSEHOLD!
No more of that for me! I don't belong to a denomination now. My family is my church first and foremost. I am the bishop of my own household. No cult leader is going to do that to me. And that's why so many people left that crummy organization. They may have been Christian enough to let them do it once or twice. They are lucky they don't get beat up. No wonder Davis needs all them guns! Sir, Kekel is scrawny compared to you. He's even scrawny compared to me! I think you and him both know you could mop the floor with him, but because you are a first-class Christian and let it go, you have already heaped coals of fire on the devil's head. He looks like a fool now, and you look like a stellar Christian!
mdr said,
"Of course, the leadership often doesn’t use names when preaching, but even if no name is mentioned, often enough information is given to let most people know who is being talked about."
Every piece of identifying information is used except for the last 4 of your social!
MDR said...
I know Jeff was a little hard on you, but there was a time in my own life, just like you, that I would have followed and defended RWD all the way to the gates of hell.
Jeff said...
Yes, there was a time in my life I'd probably have done the same. Having said that my tolerance for that kind of preaching is zero. Some of the last pastors I had were something else. A few of the first ones I had were the same. Real brow beaters. Well when I left the NTCC and finally internalized the whole New Testament Christian Church experience, I felt like I had allowed myself to be raped by a bunch of homos. As I thought about the whole thing, I couldn't believe the way I allowed NTCC pastors to talk to me and my family. I felt like a chump which incidentally I'm not but I sure was with a few NTCC pastors.
I should have got real ugly with a few of them. So now my tolerance for that kind of stuff is non-existent and when people start dishing out that old super spiritual rebuke you mumbo jumbo, I fire right back with all barrels blazing. My days of being preached at are over. Now if I'm in service and the shoe fits, I don't have a problem wearing it, but if it is being directed, and the preacher is abusing his pulpit and he doesn't have the right intent, I'm going to let him have it if need be right in the middle of service. Buddy, I'm not taking that stuff anymore and when someone comes on this blog and starts preaching and getting all spiritual, then I'm firing back at em every time. I dealt with enough pulpit abuse to last me for eternity. I can't stand that stuff.
So Brandon came on here, in my estimation trying to rebuke old M. Reed and I let him have it and that was after he thanked me for allowing him to use this blog. I didn't let him do anything. Anyone can use this blog. It's wide open. I've said this before. People can debate any subject they want here. They can call me a jerk, a blog bully, a idiot, or anything else they want but if they start preaching at me or someone else on here then I'm pulling out my bully pulpit which is the delete button or blast them like me and my family were blasted for 10 years for some of the most petty stuff that I ever heard throw across a pulpit.
My wife didn't want to teach Sunday School and Mayers the Jerk blasted her for three services straight. I still feel bad and I'll always feel bad that I allowed that junk. I felt like I needed Mayers because I wanted to attend the stupid rule laden NTCS so I put up with it and so did my wife for my sake. Mayers is a Jerk and so is Oberhauser. Hunt started hollering at a dude one even because the guys wife to be had a job of all things. It got real ugly in service that night and the dude's girl started crying. Hunt was a real jerk that evening and I told him not to do it before service even started but he had to give the guy a piece of his mind. I gave the Hunts a peace of my mind right in the Ft. Benning main Px about 3 months ago by letting them know exactly what I thought of their organization and me and Hunt used to be real close. I hate the way the NTCC treats people and I don't have any patience for it.
There are three people I don't like. A terrorist, someone who is into home invasions, and a pastor who stands behind a bully pulpit. You can hunt a terrorist, shoot someone who kicks your door in if you feel like your life is in mortal danger, but what can you do with a bully pulpiteer? And that is exactly what makes them the worst of the three. A bully pulpiteer verbally terrorizes you and your family, after they knock the paint off your door trying to get you out to church. I ought to start a bumper sticker which says, "Blast the bully preacher before he blasts you". Ha, ha. A little tongue and cheek.
Jeff
Anon said...
Every piece of identifying information is used except for the last 4 of your social!
HA!!!! That was a good one but ain't it the truth? NTCC preacher make it so obvious they remove all doubt. They are a bunch of jerks.
Jeff
Anon said "RWD using the *N* word!! WOW I wonder how many times that happened when Denis left with half his organization. lol"
Anon said "probably more than a klan rally in harlem!"
My mother, of all people, just mentioned this today, how when she went to the ntcc graduation in St. Louis in 1989 and saw RWD in action for the first time, how he used the "N" word so many times, she thought what is going on in this place? See, that word was not used in our house. It was the equivalent of the "F" word, totally unacceptable, but then again, we didn't grow up on cotton mill hill either.
Br. B
Check you spam, sometimes it goes there, if not I will try another address for me...
I was at the table, there was a card. Thanks was shown and Pastor did acknowledge the gift as a gift of love. To bad for some that was not true.
I was not offered the chance to give. I would have. Pastor has given to me and I would give out of a real love, because I have been loved with a real love.
No attacks will change my mind. While he is not yours, he is my Pastor and he always will be!!
You can not attack something and defend it at the same time. Briggs you need to learn that lesson too.
Anon said, (No attacks will change my mind. While he is not yours, he is my Pastor and he always will be!!)
Sounds like somebody drank some extra "kool-aid" at the fellowship table tonight.
Spare me!
Anon said...
I was not offered the chance to give. I would have. Pastor has given to me and I would give out of a real love, because I have been loved with a real love.
Kris said...
Why don't you just sing,
"I love the lea-der;
the lea-der is love.
When he's not near me
I feel like a schlub."
All this Pastor Davis worship- where is Jesus in that church? You know who I will give for? the poor and Jesus. Go ahead and give another "love" gift to the man who could buy all the guns he wants, while your sisters in the Philippines may only have one pair of shoes. Buy him another fancy suit. Buy him another Cadillac while you're at it. I remember Davis offered me 50 bucks one time AFTER he invited me to step out into the hallway where everybody else was. I was standing in the kitchen all by myself. He could have taken about 3 steps and been in the kitchen with me and handed me 50 bucks discreetly (just between he and I), but he motioned with his money for me to come out in the hallway to receive it from him. Then I remembered him holding a bill in front of that old old lady that was in Bible School in front of all kinds of people he holds this bill eccentrically telling her she should take it. Why does he have to give while belittling the receiver and seemingly do it to be seen when the Bible says when you give don't give your alms in front of other people? Well, Anonymous? Let's hear it!
I took the following from MCKekel's blog (emphasis given by me):
"When before the throne we stand in Him complete, ALL THE RIDDLES THAT PUZZLE US HERE will fall into place and we shall know in fulfillment what we now believe in faith-that all things work together for good in His eternal purpose. No longer will we cry "My God, why?" Instead, "Alas" will become "Alleluia," all question marks will be straightened into exclamation points, sorrow will change to singing, and pain will be lost in praise."
> "God marks across some of our days, 'WILL EXPLAIN LATER'."
Kris said...
As if God is some cult leader that doesn't answer your straight-forward questions with a straight-forward answer. Listen you NTCCers who feel like you have no choice but to stay in NTCC and wish you could "escape" like MDR and Debbie Reed, God is not like that. God gives a lot of good answers in the Word of God. It's just that NTCC doesn't teach much more than the very basics of repentance and judgment to come. Christianity involves way way more than repentance and judgment. They pride themselves in always preaching the cross and salvation when Paul said that we need to move on from those basic principles of the oracles of God. Don't you get it? That's just the beginning. Just the foundation. Don't you NTCCers get it? Don't you think there is more to being a Christian than just learning repentance and judgment to come, and then going out and inviting 50 more people to come here the same old message over and over and over?
I know, you guys love that ol' rugged cross, and you're not going to change. You're going to be a conservative church that never tries to teach anything beyond salvation and the HOLY GHOOOOOOOOOST!!!!
I got tired of someone trying to entertain me screaming the same message week after week after week. In the first place, why don't you do a Bible study on charity in the Bible, and go and learn what this means, "I will have compassion and not sacrifice." By the way, when James said that faith without works is dead, and gave examples of what kinds of works you should exhibit, he used charitable deeds to illustrate his point. You all interpret what he said to mean that you should not sin if you have faith, completely missing the point that God does not just care about righteousness, but also that you have compassion on your brother and sister who may need something.
Your expensive gifts for pastors who are living lives of luxury however is not recommended or endorsed in Christ's, Paul's, Peter's, James', or John's sayings.
So to sum it all up, what NTCC is not telling you in all their preaching about salvation and repentance and judgment is that being a Christian means you DO things for your brothers and sisters who may be in need.
You may not even realize it but there are probably a whole lot of such candidates for a good charity gift in your overseas churches, and if you think for a minute that your world missions offerings are being directed to help the church members in the Philippines and Panama who don't have very much but are faithfully supporting their overweight American missionary pastors (minus Gonzo), I would like to cordially invite you to come to Hawaii so I can personally fall on the floor laughing at you for your naivety.
I asked your rich leader, Kekel one time where specifically had all the world missions money gone to for the past 5 years. He wouldn't give me a specific answer. All he said was some lame politician-type answer. He told me World missions money goes to world missions. None of it goes to wasteful pastors and CONGREGANTS (emphasis mine) for that matter...
So does that about clear things up for us? Yes, it does. It sounds to me like he's saying, it's a secret where the money goes. I can't tell you where the money that is supposed to be used for world missions goes because it is not used in a morally ethical way.
Come on, people, do you think that the man who called me out in the hallway just to give me 50 lousy dollars after working as a minister for free for years would secretly donate thousands and thousands of dollars for charitable purposes and to help the poor church members in the Philippines and Panama?
I don't think so. I am sure there would be a full spread article on it in the Trumpet with pictures of the soup kitchens and orphanages, and I think Kekel or Davis would be in there somewhere squatting down to talk to some poor dirty little boy eating the food they supplied him with. But I can't see Kekel stooping so low as to even do that for a photo op. He about fell over when I brought a man to church who smelled like cigarettes.
I have decided that I will not give answer to your questions, because nothing that is said or answer given will be received.
Bey....
Anonymous said:
"I have decided that I will not give answer to your questions, because nothing that is said or answer given will be received."
Don and Ange said:
I guess it has to be revealed to us. That's a typical statement that you wrote but very dishonest. If you told the truth, your statement would read something like this:
"I have decided that I will not answer your questions because there is no logical explanation why things are so wrong in the ntcc, because nothing that you say no matter how truthful it is will penetrate my brainwashed skull".
Don and Ange
Anonymous said...
I was not offered the chance to give.
Jeff said...
That is so sorry. You're going to blame someone else because you "didn't give". Does someone have to hold you by the hand so that you can give a gift to the great RWD? Just give the guy something if you want or is he inaccessible? "Mommy, Johnnie didn't give me a chance to give, na, na, na, boo, boo".
That is so childish. I wasn't given a chance to give? Grow up.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
"I was not offered the chance to give."
Don and Ange said:
That's the first time I've ever heard of someone in the ntcc not being offered a chance to give in my entire life.
Hey anon, you can not be anon and make a difference you will always be a coward. The point about the gift was that the man used me to bolster his own image in pastors mind. Pastor told me himself t&hat he had no idea I had been a part of it. You saw a card... Did you read it. Get a pair if you support the man stop defending from the shadows
Now tell me again Box how I am scoring points with either side. I've stuck my neck out longer then anyone and yet whats it for. Some coward that claims to be on my side of the issue sits in the shadow and throws stones..... Just unbelievable
That should be Vic
"That should be Vic"
Trying to make sense of this cryptic post--to what are you responding?
When I asked you to tell me again how I am scoring points with people
RB said:
"Pastor told me himself that he had no idea I had been a part of it. You saw a card... Did you read it.
Don and Ange said:
"Let's see, who do we believe. Are we still supposed to believe rwd's word is as good as God Himself? I think I believe both Reeds and Smart. Never caught them in a lie before. I have witnessed rwd telling a bold faced lie to me before. Others on this blog who you probably consider to be of less than stellar character have also testified of rwd lying. My guess is that he probably didn't bother to read the card because he was not truly thankful for the gift. It really wasn't a gift anyway, it was something he specifically asked for someone to buy for him.
He probably told you that he had no idea that you gave towards it because he wanted you to be in a battle over it. Do you think he would do such a thing? I do. I think he purposely puts people these kinds of situations to see how they will react. He is supposedly a psychology major. He wants to test peoples loyalty.
I know that you will defend your pastor till the day you die unless he does something major to you that makes you to take a closer look at what he says and does. Then you will probably make a similar decision as the Reeds made and choose to leave. You see, when you are honest about things you don't have to be secretive about them. Transparency is not one of rwd's strong suits.
D&A said: "Transparency is not one of rwd's strong suits."
Neither is honesty.
RB said:
"Some coward that claims to be on my side of the issue sits in the shadow and throws stones..... Just unbelievable"
Don said:
I do agree that statement is pretty cold blooded even though I am not on your side on this issue.
This is precisely what we see all the time in the ntcc. Back stabbing and people spewing out hatred all the time. You should definitely "have your brothers back", but that's very seldom the case in ntcc. This kind of thing you would expect from "sinners".
Could this also be an example of a house divided? Or perhaps people just see things in a different light. Anyone care to expound on this?
Don and Ange
Vic, it took me a minute to figure out the cryptic comment by RB; but RB made a typo and typed "Box" when he meant to type "Vic". Hands were in the wrong place on the keyboard. That means he uses two hands to type ;-)
Some use two fingers, the hunt and peck method. It's all good.
RB said, "Some coward that claims to be on my side of the issue sits in the shadow and throws stones..... Just unbelievable"
It's not that unbelievable really, because many NTCCers do not appreciate your coming on here because it doesn't help matters, in their opinion. But a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, and a woman too, just so I don't offend anyone.
"When I asked you to tell me again how I am scoring points with people"
As long as you defend the indefensible, you are a useful tool to the corrupt NTCC leadership. Not many people are willing to step up for them (for good reason).
RB said:
"I've stuck my neck out longer then anyone and yet whats it for."
Don and Ange said:
What does it tell you about an organization when voicing your opinion on a blog is considered "sticking you neck out"?
There is nothing wrong with being anonynous RB. It's just you are so used to controlling people, like RWD, that it infuriates you when you don't know the indentity of who you're talking to. You are really making yourself look bad on here. Because you're defending the shallowest person I have ever met, RWD. He makes money off the backs of people.
Anonymous said:
"It's not that unbelievable really, because many NTCCers do not appreciate your coming on here because it doesn't help matters, in their opinion."
Don said:
At least he says who he is and what's on his mind. Are you helping matters by coming on here?
What is your reason for coming on here anyway?
You are helping us make our point. You are not all preaching the same doctrine or living it for that matter. Many different standards are presented and different standards are being adhered to by different people. Is there a schism in the body?
We hope you learn and return.
Don and Ange
RB said...
Pastor told me himself that he had no idea I had been a part of it.
Jeff said...
I didn't even catch that one. I'm not saying who is right or wrong on this one but I'll guarantee you can't trust RWD. Don and
Ange are right. What is the chances that RDUB even read the card and or truly remembered the names on it. He is so accustomed to getting gifts that it's just another needle in the haystack. Even if he looked at the card I somehow doubt that from pure memory, he know who's name was on it.
Additionally, let's say Reed did leave the name off. Does one mistake completely destroy someone's reputation and if that is the case, why would anyone follow, Ashmore, Kinson, Kekel, Olson or RWD. You want to talk about character flaws? There is no end to the ones associated with the list I just complied.
I'll tell you what this is. Just another shot at someone who left the NTCC who had something bad to say about the organization. Go after Reeds character and just maybe folks won't give as much consideration to the messages he leaves on this blog. That is what the NTCC has always been all about and now we are fighting back. You better believe that I discredit the NTCC because it's full of a bunch of crooks. From day one when I first got with the NTCC in 1985, who ever left got smeared. They don't want people to believe that anyone who leave has truly valid reasons.
Jeff
Jeff said, "From day one when I first got with the NTCC in 1985, who ever left got smeared. They don't want people to believe that anyone who leave has truly valid reasons."
And RB will be not be above the smear either if he leaves, that's just the way it is and it's not right.
RB just left a really good comment where he mentioned that leaders lead and points need addressed and he didn't appreciate people running into this blog because of the name on his church building without giving his church a chance... Where did his statement go?
Jeff said, "Additionally, let's say Reed did leave the name off. Does one mistake completely destroy someone's reputation"
So we are to believe Reed left one name off that card so he could, according to RB, "bolster his own image in pastors mind." That doesn't make sense. Jeff is right, If RBs name was left off, it had to be a mistake, and I'm not even saying it was left off at all. The truth is that Reed made his great escape from NTCC and its cult ways and is speaking out against them, and that's the real issue, not some stupid card. That's why he has to be defamed on things like this that don't even matter.
RB should not worry about being used. I think he likes it. davis used MDR to get people to buy davis a shotgun. RB was all game to get used buying a multimillionaire a gun that he could buy thousands of times over. But then RB gets hurt feelings because davis tells RB that MDR was supposedly a glory hog who didn't give credit to all the money contributors? Face it boys. davis is playing you against one another like he always has. davis is a user, abuser, and manipulator.
YOU GOT PLAYED AND davis was the one that done it to ya!
Now, boys and girls, can we get back on topic?
ntcc should provide full disclosure of money received and all expenditures.
If ntcc does not provide financial disclosure, they should not receive your money. Be a good steward and a leader, demand to know where your money goes!
Or else don't complain when you get played. You've been warned.
If you don't like people reading about the organization you are a part of and deciding not to go to "your" church then
GET OUT OF THAT ORGANIZATION!
Don't be mad at bloggers who share their true stories about the corruption in your borg!
The people who decide not to attend have shown wisdom and prudence. They are correct to believe that if you hang the name on your door, you are endorsing your group.
If you don't like your group and can't get the org to change, change yourself and leave that org. There really are many great groups out there who worship God in Spirit and in Truth. They would love to welcome a successful preacher to join them in the fight for Christ.
Face it. ntcc won't change. They just want the money and the power. Just look at this thread's original post to remind yourself of that FACT.
If you don't feel that way about what you do, then you should not be a part of ntcc. Lead them to Christ, not ntcc.
Don and Ange
Don & Ange said, "If you don't like people reading about the organization you are a part of and deciding not to go to "your" church then
GET OUT OF THAT ORGANIZATION!"
That's one surefire way to disassociate yourself from the very appearance of evil, and you may even find you like it a whole lot better.
Anonymous said...
RB just left a really good comment where he mentioned that leaders lead and points need addressed and he didn't appreciate people running into this blog because of the name on his church building without giving his church a chance... Where did his statement go?
Jeff said...
Call RB and he'll tell you. His number is easy enough to find.
Jeff
"...but RB made a typo and typed "Box"
Here's an idea. Edit what you typed before submitting it, especially if you are antagonizing people with what you type. It just kind of steals your thunder ... or whimper.
Wahhh wah wah... MDR didn't tell Davis I gave for the gift, too. ... I didn't get a chance to give to Davis.
This is one good reason to leave NTCC: the idolization of a man. You all are like grown men and Davis is your daddy, and you think he really cares about you.
Now listen, if the Bible is true and every man is a liar, and Proverbs tells me that a gift perverts judgment, and you can think back to all the gifts that Davis has received in the past 20 years (only the ones you KNOW about of course) then how perverted do you think his judgment is at this point?
Jeff, do you think it would be a good idea to try to compile a list together of all the gifts he has received. I remember him publicly bragging about a church that he visited and they got him a hotel, and when he checked in there were nice suits and shoes bought for him just for that trip, so he wouldn't have to worry about his suits while he was there.
Here is an idea I typed from my phone
I wonder if someone in ntcc ordered RB / Robert Briggs, ntcc Pasadena, Tx to delete his comment? The one where he observed:
that leaders lead and points need addressed and he didn't appreciate people running into this blog because of the name on his church building without giving his church a chance...?
His number is easy to find. And even if it were not, ntcc has Briggs' number. Ahem.
Don and Ange
Actually there are quotes in Proverbs similar to what I said, but Deuteronomy is more accurately what I was paraphrasing:
19) Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.
Briggs is saying that he believes Davis over MDR when Davis said he never knew that Briggs was a part of the gift. Briggs, Davis also tried blaming the congregation at Graham for not telling him what Denis was doing because if someone would have told him, even just one person, then the Holy Ghost would have been the second witness. I have two things to say about this.
Number one. Right after Davis made that statement a young brother stood up and said that he HAD told Davis what Denis was doing telling people to lie and say that they were praying when they were really going to Wal-Mart (I think to soul-win for his church). And Davis acknowledged that he told him that BUT THEN went on to say that he asked Denis about what the brother told him, but Denis denied it.
Okay, so where was the Holy Ghost? Answer: either he doesn't really have a connection with the Holy Ghost or he ignored the Holy Ghost or his whole idea of the Holy Ghost being a second witness is not true.
The second thing is this: if the Holy Ghost can be a second witness then there you have it, all our testimonies are valid even if they are individual testimonies if the Holy Ghost bears witness with us that they are true. That is according to Davis.
But either way, there are a lot of people witnessing to their own individual situations, but as Jeff pointed out, there are many witnesses to the same kinds of abuse of money and people.
But the main point I wanted to make, Briggs, is that you can't trust what Davis says. I once introduced a man to him that came out to church for his second time. Davis said he had already met him before, and in fact, I was the one that introduced him the last time. I didn't argue, but I know what I was thinking was, I was not the one who introduced him. Yet he was very confident that I had. He either lied or you can't trust his memory, and he is not humble enough to admit that he may be wrong about something. I admit that I don't have the memory of an elephant, but at my young age of 36 I have determined that I can not make bold statements like, "In fact, you're the one that introduced him to me," if I know that I might not be remembering things right. I might say, "if I remember right, you introduced him to me."
I remember Kekel saying that the drummer passed out right before the congregation because he mixed drugs (medications), and you "just don't do that."
Later I was at the boy's dad's house who told me that Kekel was wrong about his son. If I remember right, he had some sort of condition that caused him to pass out.
So how can these men just make bold statements to a whole congregation about something that apparently they are either not 100% sure about or are just flat out lying about?
Kris wrote...
Here's an idea. Edit what you typed before submitting it, especially if you are antagonizing people with what you type.
Jeff said...
That is not what happened at all. Unless I'm misinterpreting this, it wasn't a case of editing.
Jeff
Don and Ange asked...
I wonder if someone in ntcc ordered RB / Robert Briggs, ntcc Pasadena, Tx to delete his comment?
Jeff said...
That was not the case.
Jeff
Jeff said...
That was not the case.
Jeff why are you deleting comments now? There was no vulgarity involved.
Please stop digging. I don't want to delete messages and I don't want to place this blog in moderation state. I want this blog to remain an open blog so please don't force me to have to moderate it. That would mean that no messages would get posted without me reading them first. I don't want that and I don't think that anyone else does either. I have my reasons for doing things and contrary to popular belief, I try to exercise some common decency and integrity. I might still be with the NTCC had more NTCC pastors tried to practice a little common decency.
Jeff
Anon asked....
Jeff why are you deleting comments now? There was no vulgarity involved.
Jeff said...
Quite true but you are digging around in an area that for now you should stay away from. Please trust me. Sometimes it better just to leave things alone for a while.
Jeff
alright chief we'll take your word for it!
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Jeff
*crickets* so how about those Mets
I'd don't know. I hear they are having a hard time. I hear the owner is having a hard time also. Of course he is rich, so like RWD, if he looses his team, it's not that big of a deal.
Jeff
Jeff said, "What is the chances that RDUB even read the card and or truly remembered the names on it...Even if he looked at the card I somehow doubt that from pure memory, he know who's name was on it."
Jeff, I don't think RWD can remember the names, because he didn't remember Briggs was on the card, but I can name every one of the contributors right now from memory.
Secondly, I wonder when RWD shared this information with Briggs. Ultimately, there is a sure way to find out. Produce the card. This is so typical of the mind games that RWD plays with people.
mdr
gotta say the comments are certainty entertaining guys. The Reed/Briggs drama is hilarious! No offense to Bro Briggs ( don't really know you ) But, I'm gonna go with MDR on this one... Never known that man to lie or try get something over on anyone.
Someone brought up RWD being to proud to admit he was wrong.... Ok I have had limited exposure to this man and people in Graham but, I can tell you this man is dripping and oozing with pride... no ounce of humility in this man what so ever it is very obvious and if you can't see that, you have been drinking waaaayyy tooo much kool-aid folks!
MV
How about a new thread idea. Any help? This one has been going for a while. If you have any new thread ideas, please call me or write them here on the blog.
Take care.
Jeff
Did you hear about the tornado in Joplin MO? About 3/4 of the city is gone. Joplin is where the Pentecostal Church of God that rwd was with before he split and started ntcc is located. Tornado's also devastated the St. Louis Airport, which is now closed indefinitely. This years tornado season is the worst on record I think. There was one tornado that took out a truck stop that I used to frequent. Trucks were thrown around like tonka toys. There is something about a tornado that is pretty fascinating.
Tornado's seem to be drawn to trailer parks. If there is a trailer park anywhere near a tornado it seems like the tornado will find it, demolish it and all that is left is a pile of splinters. I have a T-shirt that says: "Which came first, the Tornado or the mobile home"?
A tornado seems to randomly touch down in areas that are unpopulated and areas that are populated. It doesn't seem to have respect for anything in it's path. It devours homes without discrimination and sometimes will destroy entire communities. There is usually very little or no warning when a tornado touches down and it is very hard to predict the path it will take. People that have been victims and survived the experience have said that the whole ordeal is horrifying. The sound is louder than a thousand trains right next to your ear drums. The smell is of dirt, broken trees dead animals and sometimes people mixed with everything and anything that was sucked up into it's funnel and is described as horrid and putrefying. The fear is beyond description and some survivors have nightmares for the rest of their lives.
At least a tornado is something that you can see, hear, smell and feel. You can run from a tornado. You can seek shelter and you can fight for your life. You know that it's a tornado. You can look at it and say, "That's a tornado and it is headed straight for me, I better get out of here." Your chances may be slim but you have a fighting chance.
With the ntcc, the best chance you have of surviving the experience is to never get involved with them. Anytime you see a couple of clean cut GI lookin dudes walking down the street in wing-tip shoes and white shirts, you would be well served to treat the event like an F-5 tornado. An extremely dangerous situation is about to touch down in your life. If you hear the words "We would like to invite you to new testament christian church" run for your lives and don't look back. If you are looking for a church find one that will love you for who you are and not how thick your wallet is. Look for a church that does great works and not one that talks about it. Find folks that care about the poor and afflicted and do not criticize the weak and lowly.
Don and Ange
Look for a church that does great works and not one that talks about it. Find folks that care about the poor and afflicted and do not criticize the weak and lowly.
Don and Ange
Come o' preach it!!
Jeff,
You mentioned that you would like us to give ideas for a new topic. Well, I noticed that a lot of married men post on here, but I know that one issue for me while I was in was that the NTCC has a way of keeping a lot of single men single for many years until they reach their 30's or more. They never get to even enjoy the 'wife of their youth.' I think this is one major reason a lot of men just gave up on the NTCC. They wanted a family of their own, and with the military outreaches set up to only soul-win men and hardly soul-win any women, you end up with a totally out of kilter ratio of men to women.
It was pathetic. If you wanted to talk to a pretty sister, forget it. She probably had some 40 year old minister who already had his name on her. I'm married now. I got married within less than a year after leaving the NTCC. I stayed single in the NTCC for about 13 years.
I had Devonshire bust in to a discussion I was having with a single sister and basically talk me out of considering her. He would make fun of me in front of the ladies in the church. Then when I talked to a single sister right in the chow hall at Conference for about 3 minutes I would say, tops! The next day Davis comes booming over the pulpit that there is no talking in corners alone with the opposite sex. I had to practically wrestle Rev. Johnson to the ground to get him to find out if I could talk to a single sister from another church (exaggeration of course). Finally when I started talking to her, I found out that other brothers were calling her, too. I just told her take whoever you want.
The main point I am trying to make is how hard it was to get married to someone if you came in to NTCC as a single man. Going through your late 20's as a single man is not easy, and if you are a single minister and just laboring in a local church, good luck. Davis and the Kekels help folks get married, but the ones I saw them help were the ones on the building crew (building houses, not churches) and b.s. students who originally were reached at Graham (kekel's former church members). And some young male church member said that Tany told him something like, My husband keeps a tight grip on the b.s. students, but you're not in b.s. so you can talk to this sister. ... Wow, thanks a lot Mike and Tanya! So, I'm giving everything I got to this stupid org, and you pick some brand new church member to bless with an opportunity to get married? And you just let us ministers be monks! You are not nuns and monks. You got married!
Thanks a lot!
I don't know. What do you think, Jeff? It seems like as good enough topic as any other!
And can't you just see RW Davis asking some other man for permission to talk to a single lady?
That reminds me. I remember him telling us how he just disregarded the rules of the church organization he was in. Supposedly they wanted him to pastor a church, and he was bragging to us in a class how he told the leadership of that org that if he was going to be the pastor that meant that noone tells him anything. IOW, if I'm the pastor, I call the shots.
Then he quits with them and starts an org and puts all of his underling pastors into fear with statements like "Obey them that have the rule over you!" Can anyone say, hypocrite? I can't tell you how many times I heard them use that verse of scripture to keep pastors in fear of him.
Few ideas -
NTCC: Hazardous to your Health - blog about the health problems many NTCCers have while people like Helen Ashmore and Verna Davis tout their herbal supplements.
Where are They Now? - Blast from the past of people that left NTCC through the years and are feelin' good...
NTCC: The Wonder Years...- Get Durek to name places, names and get some old sermons online and found out about good ole' St Louis...
NTCC Sexcapades - Hookups and coverups
Davis' Harem - Name names and places of women that he has "known" and/or from his previous marriages and adultery
Background Check - What would a background check reveal on Davis, Olson or Kekel?
Military Lockout - What can we do or what has been done to keep NTCC out of military installations?
Jeff, when I try to publish a comment or preview it, using my blogger ID I get a failure code:
bx-rynfwe
Not sure if it's just us or if others are having the same problem.
Jeff, it pains me to write this, but I have read all this debacle about this gift and how this so called "pastor" is coming here to retaliate against his "used to be friend" brother reed.
I have known the reeds for a long time and eventhough we haven't really been close, because in ntcc you really don't have friends, friends, they are just fellow ministers or just plain people you attend church with, but recently I've come to see and hear alot of things that make me wonder: Am I really in a cult?"
It is mind shattering just to think this way, but it is the truth.
But going back to the briggs and reed fall out, it amazes me how that this "pastor" has come here and starts telling on reed. On one post he states that reed told him that he is gonna stop lining other peooples wallet, or something like that. He goes on and on saying how that reed had alot of favor with rw, and that reed was somebody that wanted the best and that reed wanted all the attention....on and on and on.
I would that the members of this so called "pastor of God" come here and read what this suppossed to be "shepherd of Christ" is doing to a "friend"
Yes, maybe reed was all that, but rb didn't see the times they were tired and they continue on laboring to put the churches they were in, in order. I've seen how sister reed has kept the servicemen's homes in tip top shape. I've seen her how much she has sacrificed and given of herself to the point that she didn't have any children because she wanted to serve the military men and women. I wondered if rb can oook and serve a meal for 100 people? and having to wake up to clean after the soldiers that these servicemen's home house. She is one classy lady, is all I can say. They both are.
I can't believe that rb is finding fault with them, they left the org. so? it's between them and God
At least bro. reed didn't forsake his wife. I rather believe a man that stuck for his wife in the time of need than a man who didn't.
Jeff, what's good man? I was definitely reading your blog overseas. You should start a blog with the headline Hunt's wife wore spandex to the Ft. Benning Gym...and get her blasted like they used to do us....or how Snyder told me to divorce my wife and move in the home when he was the pastor here (that dude has got to be 90yrs old?)....or about how his wife "Sis Snyder" used to flirt with the young GIs all the time...while "Papa Snyder" was in the kitchen making hot sauce. Anyhow we got to get up for lunch man.....sorry to throw you all off topic.
Pat
Hey there anon. Get something straight
1. Reed came here talking trash fist.
2. Someone Does me why I wouldn't believe him and I gave my reasons based on his character issues.
3. I gave the man the opportunity to talk private and he didn't take it.
4. His argument for why he left is weak and based on his hurt feelings more then anything else.
5. You a coward
6. My church knows about this blog and several read it.
8. And I would rather be a man that is open and honest then one that harbors feelings and resentment for years. I have guts enough to always speak my mind. Reed, you, and many others where too afraid... You're laughable
Pat said:
"or about how his wife "Sis Snyder" used to flirt with the young GIs all the time...while "Papa Snyder" was in the kitchen making hot sauce.
Don and Ange said:
What a joke. I remember the Snyder's when they were helpers in their first work. When they arrived I got that "out of place" feeling about them, kinda like the same feeling I got about the elder keener running the candy store at campground. He, (keener), reminded me of a circus freak, really creepy.
Don and Ange
"1. Reed came here talking trash fist."
Sorry, but when RW is the topic, talking trash is unavoidable.
MDR's account is just another warning to those who might be duped by the smiling (although he usually scowls) con man you call your pastor.
Coward? You should know this word rb,
What counsel can you give to people in your congregation with marital problems?
But that is another story.
What about the character of a man who gets in the face of another man's wife. If he does this to this woman, what does he do to his own wife?
et tu, rb.
Anonymous said, "recently I've come to see and hear alot of things that make me wonder: Am I really in a cult?"
It is mind shattering just to think this way, but it is the truth."
I came to the same conclusion recently. I considered NTCC's cult-like ways for many years, but pushed the thoughts aside. I reasoned away all the controlling and abusive practices, telling myself that it couldn't be a cult because I had become a born-again Christian while a part of this group. I had also been taught by NTCC that a cult is any group who denies the deity of Jesus Christ.
When I realized the church I was with for so many years was actually a cult, I felt incredibly duped. I realized that even though Christ is preached and people get saved, it can still be a cult. That was a WOW moment for me, and all the pieces of the puzzle fit together perfectly.
Vic, look... Reed's story is not all fabrication I am sure of that. However, for me to "side" with someone they need to be a little bit more "honorable". I've seen Reed make light of people's misfortunes. I've seen him set people up for embarassment. I've seen him censure people in an unncessarily rough manner. As I've stated (BECAUSE SOMEONE ASKED ME TO EXPLAIN) why I didn't accept the man's story and gave a specific example to illustrate my justifiable skepticism at his 1) words 2) Actions 3) Intentions.
Even when we had a private group for ministeres to Hash out their differences and ask the hard questions of the Organziation he didn't do it. He was a member of the group but he never voiced a complaint. Never asked a difficult question. But Why? By his own admission he has been struggling with things for years and the group fell into that time frame so why didn't he do the honorable thing and bring it up then? Here's a novel idea, instead of waxing bold AFTER ties are cut, why not wax bold before they are cut?
We are to believe that someone called Reed and told him he was being talked about in Graham. Yet he admitts no names were called only inferred. That could be true, but question... why didn't they take the opportunity to do it while we all where at conference?
Reed's name came up on Don's blog LONG before conference time. I even called to see if it was true and no "bad" informaition or character assassination was carried out. The most I was told was "yes he did leave".
I tried to ask him to contact me privately so I could talk to hiim about the gift and he didn't do it.
People here kept pressing for a reason why I would not believe such a stellar man ....
From my perspective I was left with no choice I answered their question. And what did they do? Turn the tables and say I was bitter, and in a battle, and making it all about me.
THE QUESTION WAS ASKED TO ME....
Kris said...
One issue for me while I was in was that the NTCC has a way of keeping a lot of single men single for many years until they reach their 30's or more.
Jeff said...
That will be my next topic.
Jeff
Anonymous said, What about the character of a man who gets in the face of another man's wife. If he does this to this woman, what does he do to his own wife?
Turn it around. What if Reed got in Tanya Kekel's face like Mike did the Reed's wife? Hmmmm???
Pastor Briggs said...
His argument for why he left is weak and based on his hurt feelings more then anything else.
Jeff said...
Come on Pastor Briggs. His explanation for leaving went whole lot deeper than that. RWD and Kekel were a jerks and frankly Matt got tired of dealing with them. The NTCC sucks and life is a whole lot better outside NTCC walls. Just cause you think he left your name off a stupid card for RWD doesn't mean his reasons for leaving aren't valid.
His reasons are very valid because I experienced the same junk at the hands of abusive NTCC ministers who learned their tactics from RWD himself.
Jeff
Did Reed ever get in any woman's face as their pastor? HMMMMM anyone want to comment? I know D Brown sure didn't seem to think he treated women and people with the utmost respect.
And again... What does "UP IN HER FACE MEAN"
1) He got close
2) He yelled
3) he raised his hand
4) He got nose to nose
What? Any of these? All of these?
Or is it an "impression" that Reed is conveying when in fact Rev. Kekel asked a straight up question "What are you looking at?"
Words get thrown out all the time in emotional issues that are misleading and paint the picture the speaker/writer want to convey. Give some details Matt.. how close did he get... how loud was his voice? How many people were around? Oh wait.. you got the story second hand too... you were not even there so now we got "He said, she said going on" and we are all supposed to believe it hook line and sinker. Sorry dude, I just don't buy that stuff. I've had to many people lie to me.
So Jeff then answer this question I posted earlier
Even when we had a private group for ministeres to Hash out their differences and ask the hard questions of the Organziation he didn't do it. He was a member of the group but he never voiced a complaint. Never asked a difficult question. But Why? By his own admission he has been struggling with things for years and the group fell into that time frame so why didn't he do the honorable thing and bring it up then? Here's a novel idea, instead of waxing bold AFTER ties are cut, why not wax bold before they are cut?
Why didn't he bring it out back then? I brought up questions and took flak for it.. but I had the guts to use the forum I was given. You want me to believe a man.. then he must be a man.
Anonymous said...
What if Reed got in Tanya Kekel's face like Mike did the Reed's wife? Hmmmm???
Jeff said...
Just to be clear, are you suggesting that happened or just provoking thought?
Jeff
worthy of belief!
Jeff he is saying that is what Reed claims Rev Kekel did to his wife.
Jeff said...
How about a new thread idea. Any help? This one has been going for a while. If you have any new thread ideas, please call me or write them here on the blog.
IDEA:
NTCC, The Organization That Recycles Women
From what I’ve read on here, it seems like the wives of NTCC members are recycled fairly often if the husband leaves NTCC.
It also seems like the borg wants to control the marriages. They tell you who you can or can’t marry. So in other words, they want to control your finances, who you marry, and how many kids you have, etc. Sounds like classic cult behavior to me!!!!!
ONE WORD FOR NTCC: PATHETIC
Matt didn't do this to TK, but MCK did get this to me, in front of a lot of people, including his wife. I'm actually tired of hearing about this incident, because far worse has been done to a lot of people in NTCC than this.
RB said...
Even when we had a private group for ministers to Hash out their differences and ask the hard questions of the Organization he didn't do it.
Jeff said...
Why should he? You can't fix a broke church as long as the person who broke it is still in charge. M. Reed was probably smart enough to figure that out. The only way to fix the NTCC would be to bring back virtually every pastor and retrain them by using a group of "qualified ministers" to conduct the retraining. It's obvious that the ones who conducted the training the first time aren't qualified. If they were, you wouldn't have so many problems. sure you'd have a few but not as many as you have. The NTCC is totally dysfunctional. It's a good real-estate business though.
Jeff
"He was a member of the group but he never voiced a complaint. Never asked a difficult question. But Why?"
Because he no doubt realized that it was a trap to root out disgruntled ministers. Kind of like the "This Is I" paper we had to write, so RW knew all the dirt on us. MDR had been around long enough to realize that these kinds of games are part of the landscape. You've been around long enough that you should realize it by now too.
How come the group doesn't exist anymore? Because they found out all they wanted to know about the attitudes they were fishing for.
People aren't up front with RW because he isn't up front with them. They feel the need to protect themselves from him because they've seen him jacking people up publicly enough to know the consequences of irritating him.
"Or is it an "impression" that Reed is conveying when in fact Rev. Kekel asked a straight up question "What are you looking at?""
Even as a straight-up question, this is rude behavior. I lived with Mike, and he plays the same kinds of head games as RW, scowling at people and challenging them so he can gauge their reactions. Like Tanya said, he's paranoid. Would you ask another man's wife "what are you looking at" if you caught here gazing your way? Isn't that kind of weird?
please rb, stop acting so coy,like all you do is trying to get to the truth. Right!
What you are doing is trying for the reeds to tell you who gave them the info, that way you'll go to mck and you'll earn your "eagle's scout" in ntcc.
Hopefully the reeds have more loyalty to their friends still in ntcc.
I've heard some people eat chocolate covered grasshoppers....
Briggs said:
"
Did Reed ever get in any woman's face as their pastor? HMMMMM anyone want to comment? I know D Brown sure didn't seem to think he treated women and people with the utmost respect.
And again... What does "UP IN HER FACE MEAN"
1) He got close
2) He yelled
3) he raised his hand
4) He got nose to nose
What? Any of these? All of these?"
Briggs, I have never heard of a Pastor getting in a women's face! Your justifying it because that is what your cowardly pastors do! Perhaps Reed did participate in this practice, because that is what he saw as an example, he has since repented and turned from this ungodly organization. Now you need to do the same. How can you treat people with respect and be the man that God wants you to be if you are associated with these cowards and thieves? And for the record: If a pastor ever talked to my wife like that he would get the beating of his life! Would I cower at the thought of "touching the lords annointed"?? absolutely not, because a man like that is not anointed of God and needs to be put in his place.
TB
RB said...
Instead of waxing bold AFTER ties are cut, why not wax bold before they are cut?
Jeff said...
Even though I suspect he'll speak for himself he did give examples where he didn't just go along with RWD and RWD was a real jerk about it. That is what you don't seem to understand Sir. As long as RWD, Kekel, Olson and the rest of these old time crooks are still around, hypocrisy will always prevail. I don't care if Kekel manages to change the whole face of the NTCC. He was a big time hypocrite in the process and anyone with any brains couldn't totally respect him. How can you respect someone who constantly got away with so much that you were required to follow?
It seems that the reason you agree with all the changes is because you never agreed with all the stupid rules in the first place. It doesn't matter if I agree with the changes or not! Sure some are good but for decades people were "ordered" to follow all these rules under the pretense that God was directing them.
Well that was all a lie wasn't it, or RWD is just flat out compromising isn't he. So how could I possibility trust the NTCC leadership? It's impossible unless you're blind. Folks say changes are good but changes clearly reflect a long past history of deceit and deception.
Jeff
Jeff come on changes occur where life exists. Have you changed as a husband, father, Man? Of course you have, change does not always mean corruption as you stated.
And if you remember back to the "who Moved my Cheese" book that was promoted we were told back then major changes were coming. This was BEFORE the Denis split or Factnet for that matter.
"...change does not always mean corruption as you stated."
It does when there is no acknowledgment of past error. These guys change like chameleons, and then look at you like you're nuts for questioning why things that were sins (according to the "apostle" who can't remember the last time he sinned, has never missed God, and does everything by the Holy Ghost) the week before are now the order of the day. And not only that, Mike Kekel himself assured me that there was no change, when I suggested he take an opportunity to bring some. These changes (and more) are long overdue, but you can't just sweep the past under the rug like it never happened.
Apparently you've been a compromiser all along.
someone has to be an agent for change.
RB wrote...
change does not always mean corruption as you stated.
Jeff said...
It does when someone said that it was God who told them to do it in the first place. I suppose that God changed his mind? So did God tell RWD, "THEY WILL GO TO HELL IF THEY DO THIS TODAY BUT NOT IF THEY DO IT TOMORROW"?
What kind of junk is that SIR?????
Now I was in conference Pastor Briggs, when RWD made all these bold proclamations. This ain't comming second hand, I heard what he said. He said everything he did way by the Holy Ghost and he couldn't remember the last time he sinned. We say that a lot around here but that is what he said!!!! So unless God changed "his mind" change in this case does reflect corruption because that would mean that RWD either lied or compromised. Why is that so hard to understand?
Jeff
Anonymous said...
someone has to be an agent for change.
Jeff said...
Once again I agree that change is good. The problem is that people lives were made miserable for "DECADES" prior to all these changes, and the rules that are simply vanishing away were instituted under the pretense that God is the one who instituted all the rules through his "supposed" messenger RWD.
That makes everything we were taught a lie because we have no reason to believe that any of it was directed by the Lord. At least all the rules that is. If the Bible doesn't spell it out "EXPLICITLY", then the church shouldn't teach it or make suggestions and or innuendos. I'll give an example. Church 5 times a week.
I don't want to hear "forsake not the assembling" either. So if I decide to have church 8 times a week that means that everyone is supposed to make it each time? What about 10 time? So what is the difference between that and 5 times? There is no biblical justification for it. RWD only instituted it so he could bring in more money. He made that real plain one time in conference. Conferences and RWD mouth wound up being his biggest enemy. He thinks were are all a bunch of idiots but we all remember the things he said.
Jeff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PivWY9wn5ps
RB wrote, "And again... What does "UP IN HER FACE MEAN"
1) He got close
2) He yelled
3) he raised his hand
4) He got nose to nose
What? Any of these? All of these?"
Here we go, one last time, MCKphysically got up in my face, practically nose to nose. He wrinkled up his face and said, "What are you looking at?", in a harsh voice. This question was not presented in a congenial tone.
I was dumbfounded and told him, "I wasn't looking at you, sir." At this point TK said to MCK, "You're too paranoid", and MCK turned red. That's all there is to it.
TB said, (And for the record: If a pastor ever talked to my wife like that he would get the beating of his life! Would I cower at the thought of "touching the lords annointed"?? absolutely not, because a man like that is not anointed of God and needs to be put in his place.)
TB, I don't know who you are, but I can tell you it was very hard for me not to get in my car and go out to Graham and hunt Michael down like a mad dog hound and beat his face in. I haven't faced the emotion of anger like that since my pre-Christian days and it was that punk's treatment of my wife that brought those unholy feelings back.
I have prayed and asked God to help me to forgive him, but one can't help to think what Michael would do if somebody disrespected his wife in this manner. I hope he never has to find out.
mdr
PS Would somebody please tell Briggs to quit making a "DONKEY" out of himself on this blog.
So Reed if you've had issues for years why didst you address them with the few of us that did? You really want people to believe your motive wAs pure but your actions are telling.
I have no idea if he did or didn't do what you say but you can bet your broad tushy that if he did it just as you say to my wife without provocation I would force a meeting and get answers. This is my bean patch and I have bylaws protecting me and I believe in using them.
But how does it help now? If you wanted to help people in the organization you should have strove lawfully and shown the way
RB said...
I have no idea if he did or didn't do what you say
Later RB said...
But how does it help now?
Jeff said...
First thing Pastor Briggs. Do you really believe that Debbie Reed would come on here and lie? Please don't answer by saying, "I don't know" because you do. The woman wouldn't do that. I don't believe it for one second. Is it that big of a deal? No it's not but you keep on making excuses for the NTCC leadership and saying what you would have done, but that is not "DIRECTLY" addressing the issue. Mike Kekel was a jerk just like his sorry, abusive, nepotist, narcissist, father in law. So called sinners would get knocked out for that kind of treatment and Kekel should have also because he is a sinner. The reason he didn't get knocked out is because Matt Reed isn't.
I knew Matt Reed before anyone on this blog to include yourself. The NTCC may have brainwashed him like it did the rest of us to include yourself, but the Matt Reed that I knew was a good dude. The NTCC hasn't changed a bit. They may have got rid of some rules but the same abusive practices persist and Deb Reed's testimony is evidence of that. The NTCC leadership doesn't need a revival, they need a good old fashioned butt whooping. They are menaces to society.
Jeff
Oh and here is how it helps. When people see others leave, it gives them the strength to also leave the NTCC.
Why try to fix such a systemic problem? If someone came in your house and abused your family would you say to the crook, "lets have a revival sir so that you won't hurt anyone elses family anymore." Of course you wouldn't say that I would hope. You'd have them put behind bars or six feet in the ground and you'd never want anything to do with that person ever again.
So way should Matt stick around the abusive, nepotist, New Testament Christian Church? I don't go to a church so I can be a self appointed savior and fix all the churches problems. That is crazy. When a church has as many problems and as much hypocrisy as the New Testament Christian Church, you don't try to fix it, you run as fast as you can while warning others not to go there.
If you think you can fix the world, go to the nearest prison, get all the rapists released so you can bring them to your house to live with your wife and kids so that you'll have enough time to fix them. You'd be an idiot to do something like that, and Matt Reed would be an idiot to stick around the NTCC any longer after all the garbage that he put up with at the hands of RWD.
If he stuck around the NTCC he might as well say, "ABUSE ME PLEASE". "DISRESPECT MY WIFE, TREAT ME LIKE CRAP, PLEAAAAAAAASE!!!" "I WANT MORE ABUSE".
Jeff
Debbie R. said, "Here we go, one last time, MCKphysically got up in my face, practically nose to nose. He wrinkled up his face and said, "What are you looking at?", in a harsh voice. This question was not presented in a congenial tone.
I was dumbfounded and told him, "I wasn't looking at you, sir." At this point TK said to MCK, "You're too paranoid", and MCK turned red."
WOW! mike is WHIPPED!
anon said:
"someone has to be an agent for change."
Good thing Martin Luther didn't have the same attitude, he could see the thoroughness of corruption and move on!
TB
Jeff said,
"Once again I agree that change is good. The problem is that people lives were made miserable for "DECADES"."
anyone know the difference between policy change and compromise?
Briggs said...
2. Someone Does me why I wouldn't believe him and I gave my reasons based on his character issues.
Kris said...
"Someone does me"? Dude, would you please edit what you type?
Briggs said...
5. You a coward
Kris said...
You illiterate.
Ah, give him a break. He was just typing fast. I'm sure that's all it was. Briggs knows how to speak.
RB so humorously stated about MDR:
"I've seen Reed make light of people's misfortunes. I've seen him set people up for embarassment. I've seen him censure people in an unncessarily rough manner."
Kris said...
You're pathetic, Briggs. Who do you think he was copying? And I suppose you never saw Davis do any of those things? On the contrary, NTCC leaders emulate the one they look up to. Don you get it? Did you stop to consider that MDR realized that he was doing these things and who it was that influenced him to behave that way? and so he left to become a better person and I pray he will consider continuing as a leader, because besides the faults that he probably picked up from his leaders, he was a great leader when he was my pastor. I think he will make an even better pastor now that he has left the influence of YOUR pastor.
Thanks anon. Actually I was sitting in a hospital and typing on a phone that likes to fill in the words for me.... Sometimes its right sometimes It's wrong. Thanks for the help Kris. Where, oh where would I be without you.....
RB said...
Don you hit the nail on the head People made their kids do things. People NOT the organization.
RG says...
Briggs why do you keep trying to defend the NTCC? Stop trying to justify their actions. You mentioned that YOUR church knows about this blog and several read it. Why doesn't YOUR pastor come on this blog and defend his own actions??
I would NEVER attend a church where I felt the need to defend or justify my pastor! Like I said, let him come on here and defend himself....If he has the guts to!!
I can guarantee you the NTCC will NEVER DEFEND YOU!
Briggs said...
"I have guts enough to always speak my mind."
Kris said...
I don't know if you have the wherewithal to understand this, but here goes...
23) A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.
Plus, your commending yourself only makes you look proud.
There's a verse for that one too, but I think you at least know that one.
RG says,
"I would NEVER attend a church where I felt the need to defend or justify my pastor! Like I said, let him come on here and defend himself....If he has the guts to!!"
You should be able to defend your pastor, church, beliefs etc. to a degree. inquiring minds want to know.
It is you are so full of yourself its not funny... So let's see, didn't you just condemn yourself because you sure don't appear to be concealing your knowledge of anything. And if my statement of fact appears proud what does your pedantic behavior do for you
Jeff said...
That will be my next topic.
Kris said...
Thanks, Jeff.
Briggs said...
Even when we had a private group for ministeres to Hash out their differences and ask the hard questions of the Organziation he didn't do it.
Kris said...
Oh you mean the one where a bunch of yes men and women posted a whole lot of "We love you, Sir" posts and I would guess 97 percent of the comments were positive, and if anyone said something negative there was this feeling like, "he just got black-listed. Everybody on the forum now knows that he has a "heart problem." Sir, if someone was trying to stay in NTCC and not leave, and wanted to discuss things that bothered them, why would they say that they are upset at the founder of the org right in front of all other ministers?
Well kris its called leadership. Did you ever notice who said the so called negative stuff? I'll give you his initials the are rb
Too much testosterone and ego / pride trips goin' on here.
Time to wrap it up...Jeff, where's the new thread????
" Cum tacent, clamant ---When they remain silent, they cry out. (Their silence speaks louder than words) (Cicero) "
Dawn asked....
Jeff, where's the new thread????
Jeff said...
Good question. It's coming. I'll have it up before tomorrow is over. Maybe tonight.
Jeff
Dawn said,
"Too much testosterone and ego / pride trips goin' on here."
myob!
Even when we had a private group for ministeres to Hash out their differences and ask the hard questions of the Organziation he didn't do it. He was a member of the group but he never voiced a complaint. Never asked a difficult question. But Why? By his own admission he has been struggling with things for years and the group fell into that time frame so why didn't he do the honorable thing and bring it up then? Here's a novel idea, instead of waxing bold AFTER ties are cut, why not wax bold before they are cut?
RB
Take this. I did WAX bold and ask the tough questions. Many topics that had always knawed at me. God was always trying to get my attention and I pushed it aside. We had stepped down from the active ministry. But in my heart I had NOT left ntcc. I got some bravery that I NEVER had while in ntcc. Because I felt if I had asked questions I would have been told to leave. and by leaving I would be leaving my husband!
So we leave the ministry. I start emailing Mike K. and then IM Mike K. Which I do still have those messages printed off. He tried to do his double talk. I kept at him,persistant. He got tired of my questions. Because he knew he could NOT TRUTHFULLY answer my questions. THEN,he started the party line. That my husband must have had deeper reasons for stepping down. And why do I even care what the answers for my questions. Since I was not a pastors wife in ntcc anymore! He WOULD NOT answer my tough questions. And I went right to the source!
April
Hey anonymous @ 11:05
Last I remember, this blog allows all opinions and comments so I posted mine.
I can care less if you don't like it.
Why not man up and quit hiding behind the anon. title. Afraid your pastor might find you on here? LOL.
..............................
Thanks Jeff for the soon to be new thread. =)
Take care.
Kris said,
"And can't you just see RW Davis asking some other man for permission to talk to a single lady?"
an early start to the next topic! some of the brothers saved or not were CREEPY. One brother bragged about how his future wife would be locked and socked to the kitchen like Rapunzel on death row. Yeah sisters were knocking themselves over to get to him. another catch! A brother so broke and cheap that he asks you for a date and gas money at the SAME time! not to mention the oogling despite being covered HEAD to TOE!
Dawn said...
Why not man up and quit hiding behind the anon. title. Afraid your pastor might find you on here? LOL.
Jeff said...
That's what I'm talking about. Hey Dawn, is that you in the picture? I think it is but I couldn't tell for sure because of the angle.
Jeff
Also Dawn, your welcome for the soon to be new thread. It came sooner than later. I figured I'd put it together once you asked. Every now and then it takes a woman to get me going and that is alright with me.
Respectfully,
Jeff
Hey RB, I don't think it's Jeff that's in fantasy land. Let's be brutally honest about this bunch that we are calling "a private group of Ministers." Do you honestly think that the hardened hearts of rwd and mck are going to listen to anything a disgruntled minister would have to say? It's nothing more than a fishing expedition to find out who needs to be jacked up and publicly humiliated.
I would sure like to hear your version of what brother Reed should have said to rwd. The way I see that conversation going is like this:
M. Reed says: Pastor I've been praying and there are a few things that God has impressed upon my heart that could be changed to help make peoples lives more normal and would allow them to enjoy their salvation without feeling dreadful all the time.
rwd says: If you don't like the way things are being done around here, there's the door.
M. Reed says: I'm sorry sir, I didn't mean any disrespect toward you, it's just that people see the way Granto lives and they see the way that they were required to raise their children and they might get the impression that a double standard exists.
rwd with a major scowl on his face and finger pointed at M. Reed. says: I was here before you were, and I'll be here after you leave. You know the rules. If you don't want to abide by them, turn in you minister's license and leave.
That's about how I envision that conversation going. How would you approach rwd and what would you say to him to bring about the changes that you have mentioned that you believe should happen. Don't be generic on this one Robert, how would you honestly present anything before him or mck and get results. Speaking on this blog isn't going to make them change their minds which brings us to what everyone has been trying to tell you.
The best way to help people in the ntcc is to encourage them to severe ties with the ntcc. The sooner they do it, the quicker they can begin to recover. Encourage them to find a group of people that just don't play church all the time but that live for God with out all the shenanigans. Tell them to find a bible believing church that teaches more than just tithe. Find a group that really cares about their community and those in it. No matter how much you participate and give of yourself in the ntcc, you will never have peace or true happiness until you get away from their cult teachings and allow God to really move in your life.
Don and Ange
P.S. I'm pretty sure you are going to cop out on this one and I don't blame you because there really is no way to bring this stuff up to rwd and expect a sensible result.
"...someone has to be an agent for change."
Yeah, but they don't need to be a secret agent. They're slinking around trying to finesse these changes like they aren't even happening, instead of being upfront and admitting how awfully they've treated people for years. They can't bring themselves to do it, because they've made outrageous claims to righteousness that will be proven false the minute they acknowledge their shenanigans (which they don't want to abandon).
"...and I have bylaws protecting me..."
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Get ready to take your brother to court to force him to respect them, then. Greg has already testified about how much they protected him. Bylaws! They just plagiarized that stuff from another church and probably don't even know half of what they even say. Bylaws that aren't observed are worthless, and they'll not protect you anymore than a fig leaf covered Adam.
RWD is the Muammar Gaddafi of NTCC, and he'll do what he wants regardless of any puny bylaws. Some of the restless captives have been taking after the Libyans lately too, since he's stuck in oblivion toward the plight of his victims. People want their liberty back.
Speaking of the bylaws, have you ever read them? While I operated the print shop, RW tasked me with proofreading them before running off a batch so he could rip off people in conference selling them, even though they were made with paper my secular boss kindly donated, and I maybe got $50 at most for my labor. I think I made 500 saddlebound copies, and they sold most if not all of them at $5 a pop. Anyway, the thing was rife with typos and grammatical errors, which I dutifully edited. Butler came back with the verdict from on high: leave it the way it is. RW didn't even care enough about his precious bylaws to fix them up right. They have zero importance to him.
And what kind of organization CHARGES members for a copy of their own bylaws? Everything this "pastor" does in the church has to generate revenue, whether it's selling free stale bread in the fellowship prison - er, I mean, hall, or forcing ministers to pay for worthless Trumpet subscriptions they don't want. Chisel, chisel, chisel--is he rich enough yet? Nope, there's no limit to that rapacious appetite for more power and money.
Jeff said...
They may have got rid of some rules...
Kris said...
Ya, and does Briggs think they would have gotten rid of those rules if blogs like this one didn't exist? I suppose it was just out of the goodness of their heart, huh briggs?
I think it was Vic that summed things up in the NTCC when he said Davis is the type to build toilet stalls with no doors and leave them like that for years so that he can look like a hero when he finally installs doors and people can take a dump in privacy- when he should have put the doors on them in the FIRST PLACE!
Davis and Kekel get no credit for REMOVING rules that should have never been there.
By the way, about kekel- I told him I was interested in a black sister once and wanted his personal opinion on the idea. I told him that I knew that NTCC discouraged this practice but not because NTCC didn't like the idea of blacks and whites marrying, but because SOCIETY does not like it. I was shocked by his answer, but he corrected me and told me that it was NTCC that didn't think it was right.
So you can quit trying to use Davis' PUBLIC reasoning for discouraging it. Apparently that is just their more politically correct and palatable reason for it, while deep down they just don't want that happening in their church. I asked him why? And he gave me some reasons like, if it's a black guy and a white girl, it means she wants to be dominant over him. If it's the other way around, I think he said, the white guy wants to dominate her. Something like that. He even asked me if I thought I was that "tore up" for considering a black sister. Of course I didn't want anyone to think of me as "tore up" so I gave up on that idea.
Yeah, that's me Jeff. If you click on the picture, I think it makes it bigger or goes directly to my blog.
Off to the new thread. Ciao!
April,
You wrote, "...I start emailing Mike K. and then IM Mike K…"
Deborah and I had some questions also, but Rev. Kekel denied us access to his group (the second group that is; all the first one turned out to be was a forum to declare your love and loyalty to NTCC). Deborah and I were both Ministers in ‘good standing’ with NTCC during all this. But, we were also going right to the source. We were contacting Rev. Olson, and trying to contact Pastor Davis (repeatedly), with questions we had. We got delay and double-talk from Rev. Olson, and silence from Pastor Davis.
As far as the bylaws go, they didn't follow them for any mystery 'grievances' they had against us.
We also kept/have a complete record of our communications with them.
Gregory
Briggs you're an idiot... get saved! just drop Reed is a man of God. whether he was still in NTCC or not he is an example. Maybe he hasn't always been if you recall a post that Debbie Reed made earlier Matt wanted to change and not be like RWD.
I witnessed the Reed's life several months before they left for Guam and I can tell you that Matt and Debbie Reed are the Real deal. RB you can't see this and never will see this unless you take those blinders off and really meet Jesus. It's obvious you haven't b/c you would have dropped the whole issue a long time ago... not just on this blog but, in your heart.
MV
MV,
For NTCC to be right, all others must be made to look wrong.
Gregory
It's a vicious cycle. We don't hate you RB, you make some very good points but there are times that you stand for ntcc policy beyond reason.
It's impossible to serve God freely in the ntcc. You can be a slave to them and it will dampen the spirit of freedom. There is no adjustment knob that you can tweak to change the way the leadership thinks. They will not change because as Gregory so plainly pointed out, being right can only be achieved by making others wrong. It's a sorry pill to swallow but change is not an option for this bunch.
Don and Ange
MV you really need to realize your looking at your own reflection. If you had enough intelligence to follow a conversation you would know the matter as far as I am concerend is closed. I was asked why on earth I would not believe such a stellar individual as Matt Reed and I gave my reason... which is one among many but then again I know him on a different level then you do.
But that's ok... stupid is as stupid does...
"[In]...cults, there is never a problem with the leader, the doctrine, or the organization..." (Hassan, Combatting Cult Mind Control p. 88).
Also see:
http://www.letusreason.org/Cult26.htm
http://dictatorpastors.yolasite.com/
http://www.barnabasministry.com/recovery-characteristics.html
http://www.spiritual-research-network.com/abusequestionnaire.html
http://pureprovender.blogspot.com/
RB said, "stupid is as stupid does"
"Controlling, abusive, and manipulating people will only mock, chastise and attempt to control you even more when their ploys, methods and artful ways of controlling others have been exposed.
Remember, you have the freedom to make your own choices and to be free from controlling and manipulative people. "--from the Siritual Research Network link
"Vic Johanson said...
"He was a member of the group but he never voiced a complaint. Never asked a difficult question. But Why?"
Because he no doubt realized that it was a trap to root out disgruntled ministers. Kind of like the "This Is I" paper we had to write, so RW knew all the dirt on us. MDR had been around long enough to realize that these kinds of games are part of the landscape. You've been around long enough that you should realize it by now too.
How come the group doesn't exist anymore? Because they found out all they wanted to know about the attitudes they were fishing for.
People aren't up front with RW because he isn't up front with them. They feel the need to protect themselves from him because they've seen him jacking people up publicly enough to know the consequences of irritating him. "
Fred says:
I have to concur with Vic. I remember this group and I remember statements made about "No one will be blacklisted for asking......" etc etc.
Suffice it to say, the private, internal blacklisting commenced against anyone who said anything negative. That includes RB. Many posed questions, but RB did put his neck out farther than any other and he now has a reputation for it that is essentially permanent.
That's a good thing really, because RB is a good agent of change.
Ok Don so when MV says "Briggs you're an idiot... get saved!" that's perfectly acceptible.
When I say "Stupid is as stupid does" I'm controlling and abusive...
HAHAHAHA just hilarious!
Fred said ...
Many posed questions, but RB did put his neck out farther than any other and he now has a reputation for it that is essentially permanent.
That's a good thing really, because RB is a good agent of change.
Kris said...
Ok, this is interesting. What may I ask did RB ask on that forum?
RB said:
"Ok Don so when MV says "Briggs you're an idiot... get saved!" that's perfectly acceptible.
When I say "Stupid is as stupid does" I'm controlling and abusive...
HAHAHAHA just hilarious!"
Don and Ange said:
I see you picked up on only the negative. I never endorsed MV calling you an idiot, and I don't think you are an idiot, but I do think that you are a product of the ntcc, as we all were at one time. You and MV are calling each other stupid and idiots. Other than the idiot comment, MV made some pretty good points and I'm sure MV called you an idiot and told you that you need to get saved because there seems to be a grudge in your heart against Matt Reed.
I've never called you an idiot and it's not my place to tell anyone that they are not saved but we do use many of your catch phrases in defense of what we have endured. I've said, "They need a good dose of salvation", speaking of the ntcc leadership. It was good for us so turn about is fair play.
I also had Matt Reed as my Pastor for about a year. Have you ever spent one year with him? During that year, I never noticed the flaws in his Character that you have pointed out. At that time I had ten years with ntcc and had seen about everything there is to see in a Servicemen's home. The impression that the Reed's left with me was a good one as many on both side's will also confirm, although there are some that may disagree. They were very laid back and fun to be around. They didn't ram things down your throat like many did. I don't believe they left ntcc so that they could live in sin, they just wanted freedom from all the abuse that davis and kekel dish out. And that's really what this is all about.
They have you going round and round. You know what they are doing is not right but you hold on to their teachings because you do not want to throw away over 2 decades of your life. We get it, but these people will not change. They would just as soon close the doors to all their churches than to admit they are wrong. They don't care any more about you than they do the rest of us. You can say that's just the devil lying, but they have a track record of corrupt dealings and destroying lives. You know that there is no way that leaders of a non-profit organization should be this rich and while the majority of their subjects are struggling to make ends meet. They would have made better hypocrites if they have never applied for non-profit status. What they are doing stinks to high heaven. You can't change them, because what they are and what they have become is so vile and deeply rooted in them and if they admit wrong, they would also have to admit that they have been idiots and they are not saved. It'll never happen.
Don and Ange
P.S. I admit that I was an idiot and needed to get saved during much of my life in the ntcc. I shouted amen when people were getting publicly humiliated and that is not Christlike.
Don, if you want to be fair and say that because I state my reasons for not trusting all of what Matt says is holding a grudge then I must point out that you and most others here not only hold a grudge but harbor hatred, anger, envy, ill will, and more. Now if you want to contend that you can state info that is negative without these sinful emotions you must also concede I can too. So what is it? We all have valid points or we all need to get saved. Mg called me personally an idiot I called his actions stupid there is a major difference.
Don for your turn about is fair play statement
Prv 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.
Okay, RB, fair enough. Maybe we are all human and people in the ntcc are not special above all other people on the planet. We certainly don't make this claim, but we have heard it. I think I've been pretty up front about where I stand. I do hate the ntcc and do not pretend to love it. Jesus didn't care much for the religious hypocrites of the day. Did he harbor hate and anger and ill will towards them? The difference is that the ntcc claims to be a bastion of righteousness and has a history of abusive behavior and a spiritual mortality rate of less than 1%. Every time someone leaves it's the same thing over and over. "If they would have prayed through and got saved, they would be still be here". They use the scripture: "They went out from us......", which can be applied to a disgruntled car salesmen that got sick of selling Chevy's and decided to sell Ford's instead. The ntcc claims to preach the truth yet the truth changes as much as politician changes flavors of suckers that he hands out to babies.
Maybe you are not cut in the same mold as many, and I hope you can make a difference. We believe that no matter what impression you leave on your members, they will still end up under the control of the same ones that change the rules and create double standards. They will be hurt as thousands of us have been hurt and they will eventually leave the organization and they will be told that if they would have taken personal responsibility for their actions that they would still be a part of the ntcc. The ntcc is not the body of Christ. There might be people inside the ntcc that are a part of the body of Christ but there are many that have seared their conscience and knowingly compromised and changed the rules to suit their needs.
Don and Ange
Fair enough.
So can RB use the Bible in context? Proverbs 24 is asking many of the same questions that David did in his life about when evil prospers and not to fret because God will fight for your. Wisdom is what is needed, whether in dealing with evil people or in business with not being slothful. In the OT, justice demanded punishment (Leviticus 24:19, Judges 15:11), but we know that there is a greater law of mercy (Proverbs 20:22) that we find complete in the NT and it is through Jesus Christ.
Warning others of the wrong doings of a group is not wrong and how dare someone calling himself a pastor try to put people on the defensive for doing so. I understand you take a defensive stance against anyone that speaks directly against you, your family and those you have entrusted with your spirituality. But would you would ascribe to the notion that we stand against God Himself when we point out areas of NTCC that contradict anything the Bible would call holy? You are not Gamaliel, but we know if NTCC is not of God then it will fail. It's not - "if you leave, then you failed and are not of God."
People cannot replace time and there are relationships that will never be mended because of direct and indirect actions by those in leadership in NTCC. How could we get pay back from NTCC for what has been done? If RB can hardly admit that those in leadership have done wrong, Ashmore glazes over how that he no longer preaches like he used to, and the Revisionist History of NTCC is being reverberated at every level of the organization, then what will change? We kept turning the other cheek and loving our enemies, blessed when we were cursed, and prayed for those that despitefully used us, but it was to no avail. Even RWD says to not be a doormat and will tell people to move on from a dead relationship. I really feel sorry for those children RB, who will have a father that continues to sear his conscience and will one day look in the mirror and wonder what it was all worth.
So you tried doing the bible thing to no avail: turned the other cheek, prayed for others that abused you and found it didnt work? Sound like a problem with gods word and will more than anything else.
You kind of stepped in that one anon.
RB said...
So you tried doing the bible thing to no avail: turned the other cheek, prayed for others that abused you and found it didnt work? Sound like a problem with gods word and will more than anything else.
Jeff said...
I picked up on that as well but here is the deal Pastor Briggs. Yes we turned the other cheek and prayed for those NTCC leaders who despitefully used us, but none of that means that we should stay with the people who abuse us.
I'm not obligated or required to stay with any church group that is totally messed up. I understand that there are no perfect churches but the NTCC is way to far from it. I won't continue with a group like that. When I got saved, God didn't tell me I had to be a blind dummy. According to the Bible, the only churches which were without fault were Smyrna and Philadelphia. Smyrna was poor, (monetarily) and Philadelphia was going through hard times. The NTCC leadership falls in neither catagory. The monetarily rich church, Laodicea was spiritually destitute and I'm telling you Pastor Briggs, the NTCC leadership is also spiritually destitute.
They do nothing that pleases the Lord. So once again just like Jesus spoke against the Laodicean church, we speak against the NTCC. Jesus didn't just speak against hypocritical religious people one time either. He did it all through the Gospels and we will continue to do it here.
Jeff
Jeff said...
but none of that means that we should stay with the people who abuse us.
Kris said...
1John 5:1
1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
I like the first verse, because it mentions clothing. Clothing seems to be the main thing that sets NTCC apart from the rest of the corrupted church world that loves money more than souls, unlike the true Church that loves souls and does not need riches and follows the example of the priests who had no inheritance in this world.
So, we should admit that yes, they do wear more conservative clothing than most Christian churches), but you can see what Jesus thinks about the clothing of shepherds with the hearts of wolves.
21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.
So we let go of the things that are bad, and we leave the appearance of evil. NTCC definitely "appears" to be doing evil, and stealing money to live luxury lifestyles rather than care for the poor as did the early Christian Church.
Then this is another one that I think clearly pertains to the point that Briggs seems to be making that we are supposed to just endure the likes of NTCC indefinitely:
"An heretic after the first and second admonition, REJECT." (emphasis mine)
Briggs, many many many people have tried to tell them what they have done wrong. Sorry, but their explanations are inadequate. They avoid issues and say things like Olson said to me - now you know that Rev. Kekel has done a lot of things to help the org. He has helped the org. to make a lot of money (when I asked why did Kekel get the land grant)
or like when Olson said something like- now, you didn't HAVE to give in that offering (when I asked where did the money go for the offering for Rodrigues' church car that he didn't buy and then left Panama to go to a different work.
I heard from one man that the reason Rodrigues didn't get the church car was because it was so expensive. Then I researched it online and found out that it was just the same as here. You can get a used car for cheap over there. It's not that expensive.
Kristofer said:
"Then I researched it online and found out that it was just the same as here. You can get a used car for cheap over there. It's not that expensive."
Don and Ange said:
You are not supposed to research things out for yourself. You are supposed to realize that these people are sanctioned by God and anything they say or do is the truth and doing research for yourself is rebellious. You are just supposed to blindly take their word for it and do what they tell you to do with unwavering loyalty.
400 comments on one thread? Wow.
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