This is a tough one. Not quite as easy as I expected but nevertheless, here we go. There was a man in the NTCC by the name of Roland Moreno. Roland personally observed his NTCC pastor leaving a whore house in Japan. Roland confronted the pastor and a heated confrontation erupted between Roland and his pastor concerning the obvious impropriety and truly unchristian-like conduct committed by the supposed "man of God". According to the account which I was personally told, the pastor said that his conduct didn't classify as adultery because he wore a condom during his sexual act with the whore. This pastors name was Phil Kinson!
Roland was somehow able to provide notification to the NTCC leadership concerning Kinson's misconduct and Mr. Kinson was later removed from Okinawa Japan and replaced by another minister. This is when Roland's big troubles began. The minister that replaced Mr. Kinson was Mr. Ashmore, and Mr. Ashmore promptly proceeded to blacklist and ostracize Roland Moreno. Never again was Roland Moreno treated justly by the NTCC leadership. The NTCC leadership to include R.W. Davis systematically targeted Roland Moreno and his wife from that point forward. Word to the wise; (At which point in time you elect to challenge the authority, credibility or morality of an NTCC pastor, you better be prepared to promptly leave the New Testament Christian Church for good). You'll never win that battle and Roland had to find that out the hard way.
At a later date, M.D. Reed had the fortitude and courage to confront R.W. Davis directly concerning this scandal. Pastor Reed wanted to know why RWD would promote Mr. Kinson (who was known to have committed adultery) to the position of overseer within the New Testament Christian Church. R.W. Davis pointed his finger in Pastor Reed's face and essentially scolded Pastor Reed for involving himself in another man's adulterous affairs. M.D. Reed posted a statement on this blog, where you can read it on the previous thread.
Ultimately Roland Moreno was blacklisted by the NTCC leadership because he uncovered Mr. Kinson's sin. The blacklisting obviously occurred because Kinson is the son-in-law of an NTCC overseer and in case you haven't figured it out yet, the NTCC is a family business. This resulted in Roland succumbing to extreme depression which caused him to take the life of himself and his family. Plainly put, "The NTCC leadership drove Moreno mad".
Attached below is a news article which addresses Mr. Moreno's death.
This is a true story which has been verified by the credible and reliable. I was told this first hand and to the best of my knowledge I'm reporting factual information. Make no mistake; double standard hypocrites who preach fire and brimstone will eventually be found out. This is tragic and truly sad for all parties involved. These crooked preachers need to do the honorable thing and leave the pulpit and stop judging everyone but themselves.
I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints (Mr. Moreno's blood and the blood of his family is on the hands of the NTCC leadership)
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints (Mr. Moreno's blood and the blood of his family is on the hands of the NTCC leadership)
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
244 comments:
1 – 200 of 244 Newer› Newest»i wonder what was said to moreno as well as how he was treated and how he felt.
i find it a bit odd that he would kill himself and family over someone elses sin.
do you think davis made him feel he wasnt going to heaven and all was lost ?
There is no telling for sure. What is sure is that the NTCC leadership treated this man and his family very badly after he told on Kinson. They drove this guy to depression and made him feel like there was no reason to live. They made him feel hopeless. When the people you trust the most turn on you, that situation can cause serious consequences as is evidenced by Moreno's actions. I have to believe he felt all was lost. Why else would you kill yourself? No hope.
This sickens me to my stomach.
Truly sad....And to think i thought Kinson was a true "Man of God". I knew he was a hard worker just did not know all he was working on. These are some sick puppies...
Bernie
"Truly sad....And to think I thought Kinson was a true "Man of God"."
To think that I thought R'Dub was a true "Man of God". I guess the same things that apply to us in the physical realm also apply to us in the spiritual realm.
The apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.
Well,rwd put kinson in a position of authority because he could bring people out to church and keep he money and tithes rolling in.
rwd is all about numbers and that is what really matters to him.
He doesn't care how you do it but as long as you keep doing it.
Somebody made a mention in one of the comments in another thread, of how the brother of moreno's last pastor in san antonio, died, some years ago, saying that he died almost in the same way that moreno did.
If you wear a condom it is not adultery? But, if you pay her, is she still a prostitute?
So, if you wear a condom she is still a virgin, and you are not a Hebephile. If you only pet, you are not really molesting her.
If you wear safety glasses you are not looking at pornography.
If you use a glass (or drink NyQuil), and drink through a straw, you are not really drinking alcohol.
If you smoke filtered cigarettes you are not really smoking.
If you pay tithe with a check, you are not really paying tithe (now I understand).
If you gossip on the phone, you are not really gossiping.
If you use a microphone to preach, you are not really preaching.
If you eat french fries with a fork, you are not really eating french fries (good news for the many gluttons in NTCC).
If you lie from the pulpit (using a microphone) you are not really lying.
If you watch movies from a DVD you are not really watching movies.
If you go to an acredited secular college, you are not really going to college.
Fun stuff...Thanks Pastor Kinson.
Gregory
Oh, I get it--he didn't bang a hooker, he banged a condom!
How utterly Clintonesque.
Jeff, this new thread is really serious stuff.
How can the leaders in ntcc look to the congregants in the conference and say that things are looking brighter than ever.
They are talking about putting barbecue pits in the campground so that they all can go and enjoy themselves and have a good time!
Now honestly!
Who needs to have a good time when the leaders leading are going around lusting after the females around.
Where does kinson get that teaching that when you use a condom you are not really having intercourse?
Jeff, I really pray for you because you have really brought information that otherwise nobody would have had the guts to bring.
May God keep you and the others.
How can briggs and the others keep laboring in the name of ntcc?
Just unbelievable!
Where does kinson get that teaching that when you use a condom you are not really having intercourse?
isn't this birth control of choice in ntcc?
Anonymous said...
Jeff, I really pray for you because you have really brought information that otherwise nobody would have had the guts to bring.
Chief said...
People are giving me the info. When I'm gone, they'll just give someone else the info. Half the time I'm just re-posting what was already posted here or somewhere else. People call me and I call people and they give me information. Many people have a lot of dirt on the NTCC.
The NTCC is ran by a bunch of absolute crooks. These guys are the bottom of the bucket. The truth is, they are nothing more than common criminals. In fact they're worse. They are criminals masquerading as Christians. If you are in the NTCC and you've been reading this blog lately, you are absolutely (according to the Bible) not saved if you can justify in your mind staying with the NTCC. You are a partaker in their sins. Your pastors that send Graham money are partaking in their sins. When you listen to them preach in conference while advocating their hypocrisy, you are partaker in their sins. How can you support a leadership like this who promotes people just because of who they are related to?
All these NTCC leaders are crooks. EVERY LAST ONE. You must be to stay with guys like RWD. I don't even want to look at him. It would make me sick to even hear him preach. Same with Kekel, Kinson, Ashmore and the whole crew. Jones also because he is privy to all this information. People, WAKE UP!!!!!!!! What is wrong with you? I'm not making this stuff up!!!! People are giving this information and verifying it. How in the world can you trust your leadership? We exers have a pretty large network. You ain't even saved if you can remain with the NTCC having all this knowledge.
Chief
and to think that I really respected the kinsons because they were different.
If kinson is reading this, I would that he would come and say it is not true.
I cannot see them again in the same light.
How can sister kinson stand in the front door greeting people with that smile, knowing that her husband has disrespected her, in such a sick way!
and how can the johnsons stand by like nothing has happened?
I thought they were different but now I know that they are just in it for what they can get out of the org.
Is all about money and riches!
bro. kinson, if you're reading this, now "I know what is all about."
Greg said:
"If you wear safety glasses you are not looking at pornography."
LOL, hilarious, good one Greg
I find it interesting that some would hold any one pastor culpable in the Murder/Suicide of Moreno, if Moreno was poorly treated in Japan after the alleged Whore-Master incident, why did he remain in NTCC, it sounds like per this blog, Moreno sat under Ashmore, Reed, then Espinosa?? So is Reed any less culpable then Kinson, or Ashmore, or Espinosa?? Or could it be that any individual who takes a gun and with pre-meditation shoots their child and wife, and then themselves, suffers from deep mental problems that more then likely have nothing to do with what Church, they attended previously or who their pastor was???
Could it be that in the blood-thirsty vendetta waged by those most active in this blog, there are some who will seize on any opportunity, including the hideous misfortune of some to cast asperions on those they despise?
Sometimes a Nut is just a Nut
Anonymous said...
I find it interesting that some would hold any one pastor culpable in the Murder/Suicide of Moreno, if Moreno was poorly treated in Japan after the alleged Whore-Master incident, why did he remain in NTCC, it sounds like per this blog, Moreno sat under Ashmore, Reed, then Espinosa??
Chief said...
No one wrote that Kinson was exclusively responsible for Moreno's demise. He played a big part but then Ashmore and RWD took over and drove a few nails in the coffin. It was a combined effort. Pastor Reed happened to be the one who confronted RWD about the incident and Pastor Reed was the one who Moreno could confide in. Bro Reed is also the one who posted this story and Reed is also the one who couldn't put up with the NTCC any longer so he left.
I know exactly why Moreno remained with the NTCC as long as he did. The same reason the Pastor Reed and I stayed with the NTCC as long as we did. I wanted to give the NTCC leadership (who I foolishly trusted) a chance to legitimately fix the wrongs. Well they didn't and it took me a while to figure out that they were all crooked. Then I left also but it didn't happen over night.
Well I didn't nearly have this much information to go on because if I did, I would have left long ago. Your logic sucks Anonymous. The NTCC leadership collectively drove Moreno nuts as you put it.
It happens all the time in war and Moreno was in the middle of a real deal NTCC leadership initiated psychological warfare directed against him.
I sat under Mayers, Hunt and Oberhauser before I became convinced that the problem didn't lie with just those three but with the entire NTCC leadership all the way up to RWD himself. RWD is the real problem because he teaches all this garbage.
Chief
I beg to differ, anon.
A nut is not a nut.
It's hurtful what you are writing,
specially to the family of this man.
They are without a son, daughter, grankid, while you come here and disrespect the deceased.
How dare you come and question the intentions of this man after going through all the mental manipulation that you guys always dish out when you are in the pulpit?
You need to retract calling a man that is dead, a nut,a dead man that can't come here to defend himself.
You "beg to differ", I need to retract my statement??? I'm not the genius alleging that systematic Pastoral abuse, or the alleged infidelity of a certain NTCC minister caused a man to take a gun, shoot his wife, son and then himself. That behaviour doesn't seem a little nutty to you??, frankly this whole thread that makes these allegations is dis-rectful and downright moronic to begin with. I assert that anyone who pretends to inhabit the mind of a man who did such un-speakable things to deprive their family of a Daughter, grandson etc, and yrs. after the fact ascribe a specific motive or set of circumstances to that action, has to make a gigantic leap, and my assertion that the motive for such wanton speculation, is hatred of the NTCC, at the expense of all logic and common sense.
In that case it is all jake's espinosa's fault. How can a man who calls himself a pastor cannot by the holy spirit tell if this man has a such a bad spirit.
How can espinosa not seek some type of help from the org. about this man?
How can espinosa not see that this man is disabled seeing that he had a brother with the same illness, that eventually got himself killed?
Is that what you want us to do?
Put the fault on somebody else?
Moreno wasn't that crazy when he was at the home in japan, was he?
It was when he confronted kinson, that he became crazy!
Give me a break!
Murder is becoming a pattern among people involved with the ntcc. I know that there are many ntcc members that would love to continue thinking that their cult is like Mr. Rogers neighborhood but the truth is that it's Rodger davises world of psychopathic freaks that want to contol every aspect of a persons life. Mr. I beg to differ why don't you open your eyes? The ntcc is a cult that has nutcases like you, assuring the week minded cult members that when they are done serving man, they wiilend up in heaven. You are a sick bunch. The ntcc is so far from GOD, they woldn't know Him if He appeared to them.
Anonymous the enabler said...
my assertion that the motive for such wanton speculation, is hatred of the NTCC, at the expense of all logic and common sense.
Chief said...
My assertion is that you could care less that you have a man who was caught in adultery who was an overseer and currently serves as a senior pastor. My assertion is also that you are a complete idiot who blindly and willfully ignores the most common contributers of psychological disorders. It's also apparent that you think it's ok for NTCC "holiness" ministers to have sex with women at whore houses as long as the pastor wears a condom.
M.D. Reed is not making this up so why don't you ask Kinson, Ashmore and Davis if Ashmore was sent to replace Kinson in Japan? You won't do that because you are without morals, unethical and an enabler of abusive, adulterous, hypocritical ministers. Your only purpose for entering this blog is to try and deflect attention away from the issue at hand. A pastor has sex with a whore. A brother with a whole lot more moral fortitude than you have told on the hypocrite. The NTCC leadership targeted the brother in an attempt to cover for the hypocrite while diverting attention away from the pastor who visited the whore house with a condom.
Sounds kind of like what you are doing. Oh you must do well in the NTCC. You are nothing but a common crook like the rest of the NTCC leadership. No doubt you are one of them. Are you Kekel, Kinson, Ashmore? You wouldn't know the meaning of the word holiness if it slapped you in the face.
Chief
Simmer down Chef I'm not condoning Kinsons alleged actions if they indeed are true. We have the word of a dead double Murderer and 3rd party hearsay from a disgruntled ex NTCC minister. This is what your hanging this thread on to advance your anti NTCC agenda on. I suggest to you that if Kinson committed this act, its possible that Gods grace just might be sufficient to forgive him of that heinous sin. He will have to give an account for that. I consider the allegation that Ashmore attempted to freeze this future double murderer out to be complete poppycock, as anyone who ever sat under his ministy will affirm if he decided to run someone off he would have done it. Yet the facts seem to be that Post-Kinson this man sat under 4 different pastors before murdering his wife, son and himself. I continue to assert that to lay this mans actions at the feet of any of these Pastors is utter nonsense, and frankly for a man who often makes a good deal of sense in this blog I'm surprised at your participation in this allegation.
The Moreno family were our neighbors when they first left NTCC. They were about a year ahead of us in Bible School. I recall RW Davis pointing his finger in Moreno's face and rebuking him in the back of the sanctuary during service. Moreno was an usher at the time. I believe the rebuke may have been over them watching DVD's on their computer. It was a popular subject in the preaching at the time, specifically about watching Titanic, and a close friend of theirs had mentioned that to me. It was M.S., same guy who invited me to NTCC back in the day.
When they first left they knee jerked in their standards. Like a kid in a candy store. I'm talking going from skirts to black leather pants. Anyway, the next we know their gone. I didn't hear anything about them again until 2005 when I was told of the tragedy.
Most of us are aware that the process of separating from NTCC is challenging both spiritually and mentally. To see how they responded when they first left and the knowledge of them moving back down to Texas and getting back involved with NTCC, I can only imagine how damaging that was emotionally. Remember, this is before the advent of all the internet support via blogs, facebook, etc.
I cannot say that my knowledge of this family in anyway supports the idea that they were blacklisted. I will say that its a shame that they either left or were kicked out of school for something that was supposedly never against the rules according to Kekel's post. These type of mind games I believe definitely attribute to the type of depression that can lead someone to a drastic action.
Its not normal for a church to produce murderers like this. At least two from the the Graham church in one decade. The Graham church is not a regular church either where there are various levels of involvement from the attendees. If your there your there 5 days a week and probably a student or licensed minister. That's the case for the two in question.
Kekel your mind games of trying to save face by subtly changing the standards are pure evil. Be a leader, own your stuff and quit with the mind games. However unintentional it may be, it is hurting and even killing people.
Rev. Reed, no disrespect but its my impression you were part of a group that never had a lot of love for Kinson. Not saying the story isn't true but that should be considered when understanding the testimony.
Former NTCC Pastor,
EG
Former NTCC Pastor said...
Rev. Reed, no disrespect but its my impression you were part of a group that never had a lot of love for Kinson.
Chief said...
I understand your point but It's my impression that Kinson is part of a group who didn't have a whole lot of love for Bro Reed. When it came right down to it, Bro Reed didn't have a problem with speaking against the hypocrisy emanating from the NTCC leadership. Would you have had a whole lot of love for Kinson if you knew that he was caught coming from a whore house and he still got promoted to overseer? Jesus was flipping tables in the temple so why should Bro Reed be buddy buddy with a hypocrite who regularly blasted people for the same acts that he committed while he was a minister?
I wouldn't be too happy either if I was Brother Reed. Someone who got caught coming from a whore house is supposed to have authority over me in the ministry? I wouldn't have had too much "love" for him either. We can be brothers but you ain't going to be my leader as an overseer, that's for sure. Reed said he brought it to Davis's attention. The bottom line is the NTCC leadership claims that they can't trust us and they've given us plenty of reason not to trust them and I'm a living witness.
Chief
Anonymous the enabler said...
I suggest to you that if Kinson committed this act, its possible that Gods grace just might be sufficient to forgive him of that heinous sin.
Chief said...
This is typical that an NTCC enabler like yourself would make that statement. You try to discredit the accusers, (typical NTCC tactic used on anyone who leaves the crooked organization). Before that you suggested that I should (simmer down) to create the appearance that you are more composed and calm than I am in an attempt to show me inferior to you. This was done to try and win the approval of the readers by attempting to show that you are more level minded than I am. Psychology 101 at it's most base form. Futile.
Additionally you tried to suggest that an ever forgiving God may very well show quote "grace" to a hypocrite which would imply that naturally we should as well if God is willing to.
Well this thread has nothing to do with the grace of God or your attempt to very subtly justify the actions of a man who should have never been placed in the position in which he serves, grace or no grace. Further more your attempt to patronize me is also futile as I take no delight in any of your compliments nor do I consider your critique of my involvement here to be the least bit legitimate.
You are here for one reason and one reason only. To try your best to cover for Kinson who was caught coming from a whore house in Japan. And your analysis of Mr. Ashmore's motives is also quite inaccurate. You see Mr. Ashmore was no doubt given his marching orders which included making Moreno's life miserable and no doubt that is exactly what Mr. Ashmore did. They wanted Moreno to leave on his own and if they made his life hard enough, they figured that is exactly what he would do. Well it didn't work. Then Davis also tried but that didn't work either, however what the harsh treatment did effectively do was turn Moreno into someone who became very unstable. He wanted to stay in the church that he thought was "Gods church" but the NTCC leadership made it virtually impossible for him to happily remain. So his life, like many others in the NTCC was turned into pure hell.
He didn't want to leave all the friends he'd accumulated over the years but the longer he stayed, the more difficult the head honchos made it on him and the more depressed he became. Like I said, the NTCC leadership drove this man mad.
Not only that, you are assuming that the investigation surrounding Moreno's death was accurate. How do I know Espinoza told the truth? If you want to question the integrity of Bro Reed then who says Espinoza's integrity should go without question? However if you want to assume that Espinoza told the truth about the phone conversation between he and Moreno then I want to assume that Bro Reed wrote accurate information right here on this blog about the event that took place. Bro Reed also said he confronted Davis about the whore house scandal. According to Bro Reed, Davis didn't deny it. Davis simply gave the hypocrite a break because Davis is also an adulterer and because Kinson's father in law is an overseer.
That all sounds pretty plausibility to me. I thought you'd be smarter than to just blindly allow a man, who's been accused to having sex with a whore to remain as a senior pastor and or overseer? Do you at least think that an internal investigation including unbias members is called for under the circumstances, and if Kinson is found to be guilty of going to a whore house and committing adultery, he should be removed as the pastor?
Who thinks Kinson should remain as the Graham pastor without at least an investigation being conducted by the NTCC leadership and the outcome of the investigation made public? Should a man who's been accused of such impropriety remain as the pastor of the Graham church? If it's proven that he did have sex with a whore, should he remain pastor?
Chief
Anon said "I suggest to you that if Kinson committed this act, its possible that Gods grace just might be sufficient to forgive him of that heinous sin."
Once again, you try to deflect the topic from the real issue. Davis exalted this piece of work to a leadership position after HE SAID that would never happen in HIS organization.
If a man repents, that's between him and God, and I definitely don't have a problem with that. I told Davis that when I came to him about this situation. God's grace IS sufficient.
But I saw how Roland's wife, Maria, was treated in that conference, when Davis got up and unmercifully plowed her in the ground just because she wanted to stop and look at some of God's beautiful creation. He said that she should care for souls as much as she likes those horses. (I wonder if Davis, the Kekels or you ever had those thoughts when you're in the diamond stores or furniture marts. Hmmmm! Hypocrite!)
After that service my wife and I were at the Moreno's van consoling Maria, who was crying uncontrollably because of what Davis said to her in that service. She asked me, "Pastor Reed, why did he say that to me? I've done nothing wrong."
And let me just say for the record, both Roland and Maria cared passionately for souls and brought many people to church. I would say they cared about souls far more than any of you hypocrites who deserve to be thrown on a dung hill.
You can try to brand Moreno as a nut, but you're the real nut job, and you're in a basket full of nuts. You'll never convince me that the unfaithful pastor/husband's actions and the subsequent treatment by other leaders in the NTCC didn't have a part in Rolands mental demise.
The Morenos were among the most wonderful people that my wife and I have ever known, and anyone who knew them knows what I'm saying is true.
mdr
Anon said "I suggest to you that if Kinson committed this act, its possible that Gods grace just might be sufficient to forgive him of that heinous sin."
God's grace is sufficient! However the man should have never been promoted in ahead of his peers.
Brother Reed said...
After that service my wife and I were at the Moreno's van consoling Maria, who was crying uncontrollably because of what Davis said to her in that service. She asked me, "Pastor Reed, why did he say that to me? I've done nothing wrong."
Chief said...
She was right, she hadn't done anything wrong. She was looking at some horses. Big deal. No, Brother Reed hit the nail on the head. The Moreno's had become a target for few merciless blow hard big mouth preachers and it hurts when that happens. These crooks drove Moreno out of his mind and I also believe that. I watched my wife cry as a result of a brutal blow hard preachers comments coming from the pulpit. Never again. Bro Reed has the right to be upset about this whole situation and so do I. The NTCC leadership breaks up marriages, runs people into the ground, causes people to get so tired that they fall asleep at the wheel and die, and they mock women simply because of their gender and it's a common practice.
Go ahead Brother Reed, I feel your pain. Your feelings are totally justified and you didn't need me to tell you that but I did anyway.
Chief
anonymous ntcc person...
reed or chief nor anyone else is disgruntled. we are happily serving God. No one has an anti-ntcc agenda.
All the various information scattered around are people posting the true experiences with ntcc.
Did not Jesus call people hypocrites ?
so why are we wrong if we call kekel or davis a hypocrite when they do things that at the same time they preached against ?
Can you answer that one question for me ? I would appreciate it.
thanks.
doug hardy
P.S. i'm sure moreno wasn't a nut. The NTCC influenced people to think that without NTCC, a person is not right with God and will end up in hell.
Former NTCC Pastor said...
Rev. Reed, no disrespect but its my impression you were part of a group that never had a lot of love for Kinson.
I was around for a long time, and I personally was oblivious to this "group that never had a lot of love for Kinson". Maybe the former ntcc pastor can elaborate on this statement.
Reed's beef seemingly was with Davis changing things to suit his fancy. Though he knew about his dark past, he treated PK as a friend and colaborer in the Gospel. Reed said it in another post that Davis chameleon like leadership was his problem, not PK.
Sure,
It was primarily the denis group. Reed was plugged into that group. They were friends during bible school. As jeff pointed out there would be reason not to have any love of you had that knowledge. However, a person can also become predisposed to receive information that agrees with their views. I have no way of knowing if that's the case.
Ntcc is a very political and siloed group. People jockey for position and have nice ways of portraying other ministers in a negative light. I know barnes didn't have a lot of love for london either.
Former ntcc pastor
That's kinson, not london.
doug hardy said...
P.S. i'm sure moreno wasn't a nut. The NTCC influenced people to think that without NTCC, a person is not right with God and will end up in hell.
LTravis said...
The statement The NTCC influenced people to think that without NTCC, a person is not right with God and will end up in hell.
That is enough to drive many people to the edge of insanity.The whole thing is so sad. RWD and his bunch will pay in spades if they don't repent,but then again "the self-righteous never apologize,"
so that does put them at a huge disadvantage with God.
Former NTCC Pastor said...
It was primarily the denis group. Reed was plugged into that group.
Chief said...
Of course it's quite possible that somehow you got that impression, but Sir that was certainly not the case. I explicitly remember talking to Pastor Reed during a particular conference and he told me he didn't like Denis. In fact he went into detail. I don't think Pastor Reed was part of any group disgruntled with Kinson. If he had a problem with Kinson, I'm sure it wasn't personal as much as it would have been Bro Reed feeling that Kinson should have gotten demoted rather than promoted and rightfully so.
You see that is the whole problem here in a nutshell and it's been addressed on this blog over and over and over. It's called a double standards and it's called nepotism. Guys like Kekel and Kinson get promoted regardless of what they do and these guys have been proven to be a couple of unethical immoral dudes. Hooking up with a whore and getting caught? Making out with 13 or 14 or 15 year old girls when you are in your 20s? This is "SUPPOSED" to be a holiness church but in fact it's an UNHOLINESS church. It's just like Eli in the Bible. EXACTLY. These guys practically get away with murder and still get promoted. In a church like the NTCC where everyone is held to the highest standards except them? What kind of garbage is that? Once again, Bro Reed had good reason to have a problem with Kinson and RW Davis the Jerk. And for someone who got caught coming from a whore house, Kinson sure can dish it out from behind the pulpit. What a hypocrite.
I used to like Kinson. Thought he was a good guy. Now I see him as no more than an enabling, nepotist hypocrite. The fact is he should have been turned into a CHURCH MEMBER sitting on the pews in sack cloth and ashes begging God to have mercy on his wretched soul. Where do you think we would have been if our pastor or RWD caught us coming from a whore house talking about a used condom? We would have been done!!! Finished!!! I talked to a woman on the phone who was in another city when we were both soldiers in the Army and both in the same church and Ramirez went berserk. We never even so much as held each others hand or even considered going on a date and this dude went crazy because she gave me a card thanking me for picking her up for church when I was in one city, she was in another and the church was yet in another and Ramirez was the one who told me to pick her up?
Man what if he would have seen me coming from a whore house? I think the whole earth would have disintegrated because of the explosion in Ramirez's brain.
Well I believe God sent Rameriz specifically to be MY pastor and you know why? Because after the card and the phone call Ramirez said I couldn't go to Bible school and thank God for that!!!! That dude did me the biggest favor that anyone has ever done for me hands down without question in my entire life!!!!!!!!!! I'd like to give him a big fat hug. God saw the sincerity in my heart and used Ramirez to stop me from throwing my life away and I believe that. Can't prove it but I believe it. If fact I'm so grateful for Ramirez that if ten dudes were jumping on him I'd get involved just to try to help the dude out. Ramirez is mean enough and crazy enough that we'd probably win!
THANK YOU MR RAMIREZ FOR SAVING MY LIFE. I TRULY AND SINCERELY APOLOGIZE FOR GIVING YOU A HARD TIME ON THIS BLOG. I mean that people. I don't ever plan to bring up Ramirez's name on here again and if I do correct me immediately. The dude saved my life. LITERELY. Thank you Mr. Ramirez from the bottom of my heart.
Chief
I supposed that Bro Reed is not a good example for the ntcc'ers, because he and his wife are doing wonderful and getting blessed all the time. That is why anon tries to discredit anything Bro Reed says as: alleged and hearsay from a disgruntled ex-minister. It's seems to me that he is the one that has a grudge against Bro Reed, and he is long gone!
Get over it. This blog is here and you can't control it. The ntcc is all about control, and if they can't control you, out you go.
the real question is how many other times kison got away with going to the red light districts.
As you all know, the kinsons started in servicemen's works and they have been in many other countries not only japan. Germany, phillipines, korea and not to mention the states but this one time in japan he was caught.
Going from what moreno said, kinson didn't seem to be uncomfortable coming out of the place. He probably had been there many times before.
So moreno was not crazy enough to have been an usher in graham?
So moreno wasn't just a regular member but had been in bible school?
He seems to fit the same pattern as kelly merz.
Oh yeah, you know Phil was making it happen. He was getting busy. He probably had more women than all the brothers in the NTCC put together. Them Japen girls are kind of freaky. Phil wanted a skinny little butt for a change. I heard the same thing about Wright but that's a whole different subject. Someone said that is why his first wife left him. You got to wonder if that is how Tanya came into the picture? You know, Davis makin it with a Filipino lady? Looking at Tanya? That is a good possibility I'd say. She looks like Davis and she is Filipino for sure. I don't put nothing past these guys anymore. I'm sure they knew that is what Davis was doing all along so why not get a piece of the action. That also explains why Davis wouldn't come down on any of them. Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure that is just how it went. Same thing happened with Blumenthal. There is a definite pattern here. These NTCC guys just can't keep it in their pants.
Born again? How about sinner all over again. Let's face it. It's in mans nature so stop beating yourself up. Ask God to forgive you and know you will probably do it again and keep moving on. When you know that you will probably do it again you won't be so hard on yourself when it happens. Are there any whore houses in Graham? Give Phil and Davis the address and help them pray when they come out. They will be alright.
The NTCC leadership doesn't care a single bit about souls. They only care about covering up their blunders and saving face. That is why they tried to run off Moreno. One of their front runners was caught coming from a whore house and the NTCC leadership absolutely didn't want that kind of publicity so what did they do? Try to make Moreno's life so miserable that he would leave the NTCC on his own and then they could say he never wanted to serve God in the first place. In addition they knew, (at that time) they had a pretty good handle on information control and with Moreno gone, Kinson's dirt could fade away into obscurity. Well their plan backfired because Moreno was already so brainwashed that he would let them simply run him off, so in the process of trying, they drove the dude mad.
He was in a pressure cooker and finally he exploded. Yes they finally got rid of him but it was under the most terrible of circumstances. Are you happy now NTCC leadership? Did you have fun driving the man crazy? Was it fun RWD; jumping all over his wife because she enjoyed watching a couple horses in a field? Well your evil plan backfired because he told people about the whore house scandal before he left so deal with it.
RWD, Kinson and Kekel couldn't pastor me on how to take a Big Mac sandwich raper to a trash can say no less spiritual matters. I would get visibly mad if I listened to any one of them preach from behind a pulpit. If there is one kind of person I can't stand is an outright religious hypocrite. I have no more disdain for anyone then I do for that kind of individual. It just sickens me.
Send your money to Graham if you want to you NTCC pastors and know there is a distinct possibility that it either has or it could be used in a whore house. Whatever. Thank God they aren't getting anymore of my hard earned money. Oh by the way and on that subject. It would appear that I just got blessed again today with some extra money every month for the rest of my life. We'll know for sure in a couple weeks. Since I left the NTCC all this money just keeps getting poured out on me. If it keeps coming I'll be like the Kekels and not know what to do with it all. I know what I won't be doing with it. Sending my kids to a Catholic college like the Kekels. The Catholic church uses their people for money just like the NTCC does but there is one difference. The Catholics actually try to help the needy.
Chief
My heart is sick with this information I have read here, I was (but no longer am) am member of the Graham church, the things I have read here and heard make me feel that I have spent the last years attending a church that only preaches holiness but does not live it, I changed my whole life to suit this organization only to find it was all a big show. Just because a person claims to be a Christian does not make it so. A person can look a certain way just to be a part of NTCC and they are far from God, as far as they can be. This is something I will need to process. I am sick in my heart. I will not give my name. it is unneccesary for all to know who I am. But know this, a wolf in sheeps clothing comes to mind when I think of the church I have attended for years. God help me with this I pray.
Yes, there are people that finally are realizing that ntcc is not the only and final authority with God.
rwd knows that if they lose the johnsons and the kinsons and the oberhausers, it could really damage their org, that is why they rather put up with the adultery from kinson.
Just imagine if this man leaves his family would have to leave too.
They are a family that stays together, and nobody would drive a wedge between them, not even rwd.
I've seen the picture of the johnson clan and that picture was atop their mantle and they have it in their motorhomes.
Probably rwd frowns when he sees that picture of them together.
What a slap in the face of rwd.
He doesn't want anybody to have a family that close because he knows that blood ties are stronger than anything else.
Sure he can still get a laugh here and there and make fun because of their weight, but he can't control them like before.
You are right Jeff, it is all a family business.
You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
Anonymous said...
God help me with this I pray.
Chief said...
I don't blame you for not giving your name. It will take a while but you will get gradually get over the NTCC. We all do. We all were shocked to read these stories to include me. When I first started reading factnet and Tracy's blog I was in amazement. Then when we started this blog I became ever more amazed as the stories continued to role in one right after another. I'm almost completely numb to it now. Nothing I read anymore surprises me.
I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that an NTCC minister committed murder or payed someone to do so. These guys are about self preservation and I'm afraid that they'll stop at nothing to do so. If something ever happens to me the NTCC needs to be the first place someone investigates. If they come after me they better not be half stepping but I suspect that RWD wouldn't half step. He wouldn't do his own dirty work, you can be sure of that. He'd pay someone else to do it. Hey if they cover up adultery, there is no telling what they are capable of. I'm wouldn't have the conscience and I'm not heartless enough to stand up behind a pulpit and preach at everyone else if I couldn't even keep my pp in my pants. Well when someone doesn't have a conscience there is no telling what they are capable of.
There is a pastor in the NTCC who likes to refer to people as "reprobate" and I don't really like to use that term but if I did I would say it applies to the NTCC leadership. I'm not kidding one bit. Not having a conscience is kind of the same.
Chief
Why would loosing the Oberhausers damage the org? They are nobodies aren't they?
jeff, I think the person meant to say ankenbauers, daughter and son in law of the johnsons.
So, is NTCC all about the mighty dollar then? How much they can make, how many millions? Is this just a big business, the business of making money not winning souls for God? I feel like I have been taken, taken for a very long ride. 10 years, to be exact. Why was I so blind, I saw some things, things I thought where strange about the Pastor and associate Pastor,preachers and preachers wives, but I know I can never goback there again. I pray that the other members that stay there see the light as I have. just call me heartsick, for that is how I truly feel today.
Heartbroken, sometimes I feel the same thing for I know that the decisions that I make will somehow set me free or set me to fail.
well mr kinson,
before you even got with that woman with / without a condom you committed adultery.
Jesus said if you look at a woman and lust after her, you already committed adultery.
Score:
Jesus: 1
Kinson: 0
Former ntcc pastor EG said:
"When they first left they knee jerked in their standards. Like a kid in a candy store. I'm talking going from skirts to black leather pants."
DnA said:
I have to say, former ntcc pastor, that while you may have left the ntcc, it doesn't appear that the ntcc has left you. Unknowingly, you make a very good case that supports what this thread is all about. The ntcc drives people crazy. The ntcc controls people long after they leave. You are being controlled and you don't even know it.
When Roland and his family left the ntcc the only fact that you could come up with to disparage them is say that they wore leather. Is that a sin? Thou shalt not wear leather? The ntcc messes people up really good. Here you are overlooking the actions of Phil Kinson who went to a whorehouse, and didn't repent but said that if you use a condom it's not adultery. You also discount the fact that Moreno did the right thing by reporting it to the leadership of the ntcc, who turned around and made this guys life miserable on all accounts, and you are going to try to discredit everything by saying they wore leather? Years after you leave the ntcc you still don't get it. Do you think God loves a person any less for wearing leather? That is what the ntcc is all about and people cleave to these stupid ideas years after leaving the ntcc. We will be judged according to God's word, not some stupid rules that some greedy, money grubbing, whore mongering, adulterer in the ntcc made up to control people, so they can collect their tithe.
This just backs up our assertion that the ntcc causes permanent damage to people. It seems like many that are posting on this thread are afraid to use Phil Kinson's name in association with the adultery he committed, but they are so quick to point out how Moreno was a murderer. There is no doubt in my mind that the ntcc messes people up really bad.
Evil communications corrupt good manners, Good manners don't have much effect on evil communicators. Moreno was on all accounts a great brother and many testify that he loved God and was a good soul winner. I can relate to him because he gave himself to God and the ntcc, did what he knew was right and was later was betrayed by them. It's a horrible feeling that messes you up on the inside. It's a sad and tragic ending but also exposes the extent of how sickening the ntcc leaders are for pushing Moreno to this point.
Adam and Eve wore leather.
Gregory
DnA wrote...
Do you think God loves a person any less for wearing leather?
Chief said...
Exactly. Straining at a gnat. So what if the girl wore leather. Leather makes a good garment. Not only that I want to share something that is quite noteworthy that obviously most people (and more specifically the NTCC leaders) overlook. Either that or they don't want to know which is more likely the case.
Deu 22:5: The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Jeff said...
Look up this verse in the Strongs concordance. "shall not wear that which pertaineth" is one word in the Hebrew language (word # 3627) and "unto a man" in one word in the Hebrew language (word # 1397) in the Strongs numbering system. Here is the key part. Word # 1397 in the Strongs Hebrew numbering system means specifically "A Strong valiant man or a warrior" and some of the meanings for word # 3627 in the Strongs Hebrew numbering system are, "weapon, utensil, artillery, armour, any apparatus, or jewel.
So guess what a logical and sensible person would logically conclude about this scripture which incidentally the NTCC leadership has taken totally out of context. That a woman is not to wear a weapon or utensil that is used by a "Strong, Valiant man or Warrior". That is what that part of the scripture is saying quite obviously. If you don't believe me, get a Strongs concordance and look it up for yourselves!!!
So guess what you deceived NTCC people, (just like I was deceived when I was in the NTCC).
There is a clear case (according to the Old Testament) under the Law, that a woman shouldn't were weaponry that a Warrior, Strong or Valiant man would were in battle. Deu 22:5 does not mean that a woman can't wear pants or specifically leather pants which didn't even exist back then anyway. Pants hadn't even been invented yet. Look it up in an archeology book. I have one in my closet. Do I need to quote what that books says about pants also? They didnt' exist back then. Men and women both wore a different variation of a "dress" like garment. The NTCC leadership has the verse of scripture all wrong but don't take my word for it. Go to your Strongs concordance all the way in the back under the Hebrew section and look up the word # 1397. Before you do that look up Deu 22:5 and verify for yourselves that I gave you the proper Hebrew numbers that correspond to the scripture. Then when you finish admit to yourselves that the NTCC has been wrong about their interpretation of that scripture all along at least from the standpoint of what a woman should wear. Then consider that pants didn't exist back then anyway and men wore a wrap around dress like garment so they got the other part of the scripture wrong also. A man could run around in a robe like Jesus did which obviously resembles a dress and there would be nothing wrong with it.
So the moral of the story, DnA, is that there is nothing wrong with anyone wearing leather or pants for that matter. Ladies if you are bent on following that scripture you might not want to run around with a sward or shield or gun i.e. an artillery piece. But the fact is that is also a stretch because if you want to attempt to follow that scripture you may want to consider stoning your children to death when they get out of hand. That is also in the old testament.
Cha Ching
Gregory wrote...
Adam and Eve wore leather.
Chief said...
Ha!!!!! Very good Gregory but you know the NTCC crooks will say, "That was before the law". Well where in the Old Testament or the New Testament does it say you can't wear leather? The NTCC makes up more stupid rules that place people in bondage than the number of whores who a certain NTCC minister went to visit in the red light district. I'm quite sure it wasn't the first time he went to the red light district. NTCC tithe and offering money hard at work.
Y'all brothers who are hard up and need to get some; go to a whore house and slap on a condom. Then you to can become an overseer or a pastor in the NTCC. Just make sure you get caught so you can tell RWD not to worry about it because you know about his past also. Threaten to expose him if he talks about exposing you. You'll definitely become an overseer or pastor then. It's called blackmail and it's clearly being used quite effectively in the NTCC.
Chief
Lev. 7:8
"And the priest that offereth any man's burnt offering, [even] the priest shall have to himself the skin of the burnt offering which he hath offered."
Leather for the priests?
Gregory, as part of the ex-ntcc board, you stated that wearing safety glasses while watching porn isn't watching porn.
We need to change this by-law so it is more sensible.
We should perhaps say wearing dark shades while watching porn, isn't watching porn.
Get back to me and let me know what the ex-ntcc board has voted on this new by-law.
ROFLOL. That's funny! Boy was that a good one. Man, the more we really look at the scriptures the more ludicrous are these stupid NTCC rules. Leather for the Priest. Ha, ha, ha, ha!!!! LOL. Leather is a good thing and acceptable to the Lord. Wear it women. Oh that's right you can't. You weren't Priests. Well the brothers can wear it that's for sure and if DnA look some more, they may find a scripture showing women wearing leather also.
This is evidence of more Non Bible NTCC rules.
Chief
Elijah the Tishbite would never be allowed to attend an ntcc church. Not only did he wear leather, he wore a leather girdle. 2 Kings 1:8
DnA wrote....
Not only did he wear leather, he wore a leather girdle.
Chief said...
Very good. He would have got blasted. They would have ran him out of the church. The NTCC leadership would have told him he needed to get saved. The NTCC is about one thing; outward appearance. Hey, no one has commented on my Deu 22:5 post. Has anyone taken a look at it? It's talking about a woman wearing battle gear. I posted it at 12:16 PM. Look it up. The NTCC missed the mark on that scripture.
Chief
"It seems like many that are posting on this thread are afraid to use Phil Kinson's name in association with the adultery he committed, but they are so quick to point out how Moreno was a murderer."
It should be noted that there is no doubt about Moreno's crime. People are dead. The adultery allegations concerning Phil, however, though strong, are not proof. So yes, people don't have a problem stating the obvious--Moreno was a murderer--but perhaps they're not as comfortable about making concrete accusations based on hearsay.
Chief said:
"It's talking about a woman wearing battle gear."
DnA said:
Why would a woman wear battle gear if she's in the kitchen all the time? I guess to fight off the hungry mobs. Men were also not supposed to wear that which pertaineth to women, So there must have been problems with that back then. Elijah wore a leather girdle but like you said pants weren't customary at that time. The word Breeches where we get our word britches was a garment for the priest. But it was more like an undergarment because it was linen and used to cover up nakedness. They only went down to the thighs, so they actually would be considered shorts today. If you look at all this in the dogmatic, cut and dry way that the ntcc looks at things than you would have a complete mess here. If you used the old testament to define holiness, the ntcc would be preaching against dudes wearing dresses and girdles, and the women wearing battle apparel. I'm glad that the law was done away with and that we are living under grace. By the way, is there a scripture that justifies pinky rings?
Vic said:
"The adultery allegations concerning Phil, however, though strong, are not proof."
DnA said:
I understand that line of thought but we shouldn't have to walk on egg shells either. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you on this Vic and I understand where you are coming from. My own personal feelings are this:
The ntcc makes a living off of calling people out by name and publicly rebuking them. I don't have any problem saying their names, because they have done as much to me and many other brethren. The accusations against Phil Kinson were strong enough for me and many others to believe that it actually happened. I believe this and am not afraid to use his name. If he thinks we are wrongfully accusing him of something he didn't do, he is welcome to come on here and defend himself, which is more of a chance than we were ever given. They are not afraid to drag our names through the dirt, neither should we be afraid to use theirs. I have used a lot of names on our Xer blog but I also feel I have a right to do this because of what I personally went through. I believe the Reeds testimony and I believe that if Matt did not believe Roland that he never would have went to Rwd. That is enough for me. We know that the ntcc has ruined lives of others for less than this and turn about is fair play.
Vic, I'm not trying to disagree with you on this subject and I do respect you. I have been through and seen an awful lot of corruption in the ntcc. While in the ntcc I walked on egg shells but now I have no problem stating my opinion to include names. I was making an observation that many people that were talking about this subject were afraid to use his name, yet everyone knew who they were talking about. That happened way too frequently in the ntcc.
Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to let you know where I'm coming from.
DnA
If Matthew Reed says that Kinson was in fact replaced by Ashmore and Matthew Reed says that Moreno said it happened and Matthew Reed says that he confronted Davis about it and Matt said that Davis didn't deny it, then I believe it happened. If the truth be known we don't have proof that Moreno killed himself and his family other than the word of an NTCC minister and the fact that his gun was used. I don't trust these NTCC ministers. Their word means nothiing to me. Having said that I think there is enough evidence clearly suggesting that Moreno did it and I also think there is enough evidence proving that Kinson did what he was accused of.
I'm not trying to be a conspiracy dude but murders are faked as suicides all the time. Someone who wanted Moreno out of the way busts in his house, takes his gun and kills him and his family. Yeah I know that is far fetched and highly improbable but it's not like something like that has never happened before. The reality is I believe that Moreno did what he was accused of and I also believe that Kinson did what he was accused of as well. The guy was removed from Japan for what? If it never happened why didn't Davis set the record straight when Reed confronted him? Why would Moreno tell Reed it happened if it didn't? That is enough evidence for me and I'm sure others know about it also.
Chief
Wait a minute--I never criticized you or anyone for broaching this. I merely observed that some people have the qualms I described (and I didn't say that I was one of them either, or that I didn't believe this allegation). I was only putting forth a theory as to why people who commented on Moreno by name wasn't rushing in to call Phil out. That shouldn't be construed in any way as an attempt by me to foment conflict; it was an attempt to explain a phenomenon you mentioned.
Mellow out!
Funny tangent on the leather issue. Glad I could furnish the comic relief. I believe you missed the point I was making. Leaving ntcc is challenging both spiritually and mentally. Navigating that is not easy. I'm sure over time all of us have adjusted our standards to reflect values we have arrived at on our own rather than adopting someones that was forced on us. That's healthy. What's not healthy is abandoning all of your norms at once. Its also not healthy to return to the ntcc after having made your break. I believe if the moreno family followed a slower process when leaving, that would have been healthier and ultimately perhaps more successful. They probably returned to ntcc because they felt they needed that anchor to experience a sense of normalcy.
Former ntcc pastor
On a second note. Some the bloggers here sure don't like opposing thoughts. So much so they draw the wrong conclusions. I haven't been with ntcc for years and could care less if kinson is guilty or not, it has no impact on me. However, as the blog name suggests, truth matters. I'm not sure that one testimony going public in a second hand nature 8 years after the mans death is enough for me.
Mdr's word I admit is to be considered very seriously but there are some questions there also. Why, stay with ntcc even after knowing this about kinson and davis? How did you feel about kinson prior to learning this about him? How long did you keep this information to yourself?
Vic said...
Mellow out!
Chief said...
I can do that. Breath, breath...... There, I'm mellow. Everything is cool Vic. I understand your point. And to answer the last persons question. Why do people stay with the NTCC even when they know of the NTCCs dirt? Simple. Because we were brainwashed, just like the people who are still in. It's not easy to break away from a cult. You dedicate your life and your time, money and soul into it, and as a result, it's not easy to break away. It's not easy to admit to yourself that you've been duped. That's all there is to it. It's not easy to admit that the church you insisted wasn't a cult really is. So I can see why it takes someone years to break away. That is why I keep this blog running.
Now Vic, whether you realize it or not, it did seem like you were being the devil's advocate. You can take that however you will but that was the impression I got and I felt the need to set the record straight just like you did. No problems no hassles. I called Kinson out by name as did someone else before me. Of course I had noticed, (prior to your statement) that others didn't refer to him by name but rather as "the adulterer".
Additionally I talk to people on the phone who call me and or I call them and they don't want their identity revealed for a variety of reasons. M. Reed doesn't fall in that category but there are others who do. Before I posted this article, (which I personally had no prior knowledge of) I did make some calls and or I was called. I was convinced there was a considerable body of evidence justifying this article. Additionally prior to that, M. Reed had already posted a statement addressing the event on another thread.
Why am I saying all this Vic? It's not because I think you doubt the credibility of this claim but there are clearly others who do or they are deliberately trying to discredit certain people who made the allegations. Which ever the case the NTCC is without doubt one seriously sick organization. It's funny that no one came on here to try and say that he didn't do it. They simply tried to discredit the people who they knew made the allegations. Of course with Moreno that is not very hard to do.
People want to know why Moreno stuck around as long as he did, but the question is, if Moreno acted crazy all along, why did the NTCC leadership allow him to stay as long as they did? I still say the NTCC drove the dude mad and I completely believe that. Cults have a way of doing that. Look at Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Warren Jeffs, Jim Bakker.
Now look at some of the people the NTCC has created. Fonteno, Moreno, Merz, the dude who walked into the Graham Chapel with a sword. If the NTCC leadership says that these guys were crazy to begin with, why did they recruit them? Because the NTCC doesn't care one way or the other as long as you give your money. As long as you keep paying tithe, they'll keep you around.
Chief
Let me also say this. My biggest concern with this article was with Mrs. Kinson. This is serious information that can have a serious effect on a marriage. Well here is what I've concluded. The NTCC leadership was never worried about breaking up someone's marriage. Of course that is not the goal here at all, but it is what it is. The NTCC leadership will break up families in a heart beat so if this article helps someone escape from the NTCC, marriage in tact, then it was worth it regardless of residual damage. NTCC leaders have a long history of breaking up couples with no regard for anyone's feelings. Well that is not the case with me but people need to know what kind of pastor they have. I wish some people years ago would have made public this kind of information. I wouldn't have stayed with the NTCC as long as I did. I wouldn't have wasted as much time or money. I always wondered why certain pastors would just up and leave the NTCC but no one would talk.
Well those days are over. My families life was made a living hell by a bunch of hypocrites and people deserve to know what the NTCC is really all about and a few of us have decided to champion that cause. I'm not trying to make everybody happy.
Chief
Sorry, Vic, I did miss the point of your observation and in doing so got a little bit defensive. You are right, I do need to mellow out a bit. Sometimes it's easy to get invested in an issue or a cause and in doing so the intent of a statement can be overlooked. Other details emerge and become a focal point and the purpose of the statement is lost in what my mind considers the important details.
Anyway, you write some very good stuff and always make good points. The systematic way in which you dismantled the former ntcc member's logic who was making excuses for the ntcc on Bruces online newspaper was nothing short of brilliant. It was needed and nobody could have done it better.
DnA
Jeff, I left a message that didn't post but just delete it if it shows up in your spam folder. I coppied it and posted it in another window. Thanks
Vic said:
"The adultery allegations concerning Phil, however, though strong, are not proof."
No, It's not absolute. But it's pretty good circumstantial evidence though and people have been convicted of things on much, much less than the evidence that we do have. I'm not a Lawyer, But if memory serves me correctly this would fall under something described as the "Preponderance of Evidence" being 51% and above as being enough evidence to convict someone.
Phil Kinson didn't break any Laws. Prostitution is legal in many parts of the World, and even here in the United States in Nevada. (only certain parts) Even if he didn't do anything it certainly gives the appearance of evil and impropriety on his part. (enough that he would be replaced by the Real Estate Company)
Anonymous said:
"I'm not sure that one testimony going public in a second hand nature 8 years after the mans death is enough for me."
DnA said:
Before MDR even shared any details of this happening it was being talked about on a previous thread on this blog. So there is more than one testimony. MDR didn't intend to bring it up but many of us were questioning the anonymous poster and that is when MDR contributed his in depth knowledge and personal experience dealing with this issue. So MDR is not the only witness.
DnA
September 24, 2011 5:45 PM
Jeff,
Forgive me for posting off topic but I think it's important.
LTravis said...
RWD takes new converts back to Mt Sinai and places them under the law, that my friends is why sin abounds in the ntcc and it is also why the ntcc is falling apart you are not winning your just miserable. God will lead you back to Mt. Zion where you can be free in His Grace, but you have to be willing. I tell you the truth Grace sets us free from sin. RWD wants to be your master and tell you how to live under (his) law. I do not harbor unforgiveness against anyone including RWD because I have been forgiven, with that said I pray and hope that everyone in this abusive organization of legalism would return to Mt.Zion and live in Christ’s finished work. I hope you always remember this (For by Grace are you saved). God is waiting for your return. I would also like to say I have been blessed to find a new friend and brother in the Lord his name is Matthew Reed. The reason I bring this up is God does restore and repair that which was stolen by the ntcc, even though I never knew the Reeds before, God has placed them in my life and what a blessing they are. There are many awesome believers in the ntcc and God wants to set you free from the organization, if you choose to stay it can only lead to misery and failure because they are fallen from grace. I’m not a gifted writer like most but I know how to pray and ask God for help to convey His love for you, the best thing you can do for yourself and family is just leave.
"Legalism takes the individual back to Mt Sinai, where the law was given. Every man or woman will be judged based on one of two bases. Either they will be judged by the law or by grace; by their works or by Christ’s work; by the provisions of Sinai or by the provisions of Mt. Zion."
LTravis
Anonymous said:
"Mdr's word I admit is to be considered very seriously but there are some questions there also. Why, stay with ntcc even after knowing this about kinson and davis? How did you feel about kinson prior to learning this about him? How long did you keep this information to yourself?"
DnA said:
I am trying to look at your comments objectively and not miss the point as I did previously. You sure do seem to be focusing more on MDR's credibility than you are on Phil Kinson's. It would seem that you have a problem with MDR. If this doesn't apply to you than you shouldn't take offense.
I take offense when someone comes on here and tries to question the motives or discredit the testimony of an X-er, because this is what the ntcc did so many times in the past. We didn't have a voice in the ntcc. MDR is one of the most credible sources that has shared his stories of ntcc corruption. He was a Pastor that left the ntcc on his own accord and was not involved in any scandals with the ntcc.
If you are trying to cast a cloud of doubt on the Reed's, you have come to the wrong place and you won't get very far. You see, MDR rode out the ntcc storm for almost 3 decades and they might not have been perfect like Rwd claims to be, but they haven't been involved in any allegations of misconduct like Rwd, Kekel and Kinson. The Reed's only crime was calling the ntcc hypocrites out on their hypocrisy and for this they were slandered.
While it seems like your questions are directed at MDR, they also are general in nature and can be answered easily by any of us who have left as they apply to us.
Q: Why, stay with ntcc even after knowing this about kinson and davis?
A: There are people still in the ntcc that know stuff about Kinson and Davis, so you could ask them why they stay. As Jeff covered much of this in his last comment so well, I will also add that the ntcc is a cult and uses mind control tactics that place people in fear of leaving. You act like the ntcc is a normal church when they are anything but normal.
Q: How did you feel about kinson prior to learning this about him?
A: Why would this question be important unless you were hell bent on discrediting MDR's testimony? Obviously you are an enabler.
Q: How long did you keep this information to yourself?"
A: It looks like you copied and pasted this question from an email or something because you forgot to remove the quotation marks on the end of the sentence. Why would someone have to answer this question to make them more credible?
The questions you are asking of MDR are similar to the questions you should be asking of Kekel and Davis. I'm pretty sure that you will not have much success degrading the Reeds on this blog, but it is an open forum and you probably will generate a lot of comments that continue to place the ntcc and it's leadership in a bad light.
DnA
What happened with Fonteneau, I am not sure of the spelling, He was always friendly to me and I was just a member, his wife was nice too. Did he have a situation that made him leave? I remember seeing him after he had been gone for a while at the Graham church, he was with his Mother I think, he looked stiff as a board sitting in the pew, he was probably made to feel very uncomfortable. I don't know, He had a nice family though. What happened with them?
Anonymous said...
What happened with Fonteneau,
Chief said....
Here is what happened with Fontenot. In May 2006, Michael Fontenot pleaded guilty to two counts of rape of a child in the second degree. I have the whole article. I saved it as a pdf file so if anyone is interested I can email it to them. The court imposed a sentence of 131 months to life with a whole bunch of loop holes that would let him out early. I think he is in prison now but if he is not, you don't want this dude around your children. He is a repeat offender and he won't stay away from children.
There is another one under your belt NTCC. The NTCC breeds this kind of stuff. He's going to come around the wrong person's kid he'll be pushing up daisies.
Chief
Anonymous said,
What happened with Fonteneau, I am not sure of the spelling, He was always friendly to me and I was just a member, his wife was nice too.
He is serving a prison term for a second offense of child molestation.
Oh here is the sick part. The last thing that I read showed the court potentially overturning his conviction because apparently he wasn't afforded due process. You don't want to have your children around the NTCC as this same type of incident has happened over and over. Child abuse, rape of a child and abandonment. The NTCC doesn't have a very high regard for children and they teach that you should neglect children.
Ok here we go. You ask, "How is it Chief that the NTCC teaches that you should neglect your children"? "That is not true Chief"!
Chief says, "Yes it is true". NTCC pastors absolutely advocate and promote that you deprive your kids of sleep. They wanted us to bring our kid to church in the evenings and they could care less what time she got home and how much sleep she lost. Our child's school work wasn't supposed to be important either. The only thing that was important was those church services. It is fine with the NTCC leadership is your kid drops out of high school. Well people, that is child neglect.
Chief
Is it true that Davis molested a friend of his daughter Tanya some 35 years ago? If so, was the law ever involved or is there any record of it? This is very serious allegations I have heard. Or is this person making this accusation "off" herself. When I was told this, I was in shock to say the least. I will remain anonymous for obvious reasons.
A young lady did accuse Davis of sexual contact. She also said Davis continued it even after she got married. She said she went to Olson and Olson told her to find another church. She told her mother and her mother dismissed it. For whatever reason this lady allowed it to go on for quite some time before she put her foot down. I know the name of the lady and I know who her mother is. Her mother is still with the organization. This story has circulated around these blogs many times. It also circulated around a private forum where her name was not kept secret. Davis has a history of this kind of conduct. A man who goes by double-d made similar acusations against Davis.
So, Davis is a child molester then? Are there currently others doing the same thing in the Graham church? This is horrible, would this kind of thing be covered up? To keep whoever they want to keep as preachers etc. Some years before I left, I kept my children with me in the services. Once a few years back I was asked why did I keep the children with me, I said no reason, I had no reason, just thought it best at the time, now I am glad I did.
not sure if this is the same pdf as jeff has
but it was signed march 2011 and everything since the arrest and inbetween is documented here
Click for pdf
the sentence was two counts of rape of a child in second degree
A person is guilty of rape of a child in the second degree when the person has sexual intercourse with another who is at least twelve years old but less than fourteen years old and not married to the perpetrator and the perpetrator is at least thirty-six months older than the victim.
here's the more recent pdf of happenings dated june,2011
forgot the link
Link
Anon said ""Mdr's word I admit is to be considered very seriously but there are some questions there also. Why, stay with ntcc even after knowing this about kinson and davis? How did you feel about kinson prior to learning this about him? How long did you keep this information to yourself?"
Nice try anon, but this isn't an inquisition about me. I'm out and glad that I am.
The question is and should be, how long will you stay a part of Ntcc now that you have heard about this incident? I challenge you, go and ask davis and kinson, if it's true?
mdr
Mdr, I have been out for years. That's why I posted as former. And when you became the primary reliable source for a very serious accusation you made it about you. Ntcc has a lot of issues that we do not have to grab at straws in order to discuss them. You've done your fair share of posting on this blog I'm just trying to understand why this is just now coming out. Did you feel you needed to keep this confidential for some reason?
Did you feel you needed to keep this confidential for some reason?
why did we all keep secrets when we were in?
Hey Former ntcc pastor, the comment in which you started cross examining MDR, you did not sign as Former Pastor but I reasoned that it was you because it was a follow up comment to other stuff you wrote.
This is just an observation, but you seem like you have a problem with MDR. Most of us in the Xer community share our stories of how messed up the ntcc is for a number of reasons. In the ntcc we were not allowed to disagree. We know that the ntcc is a corrupt organization. We want people to be free from the ntcc. We want people to steer clear of the ntcc and we want people to know that they can live for God outside of the ntcc. MDR seems to have similar goals but you however, former preacher, or whatever you were, seem to have a different agenda.
Why are you so concerned about MDR, may I ask? There have been other stories that are worse than Phil Kinson's trip to a whorehouse in Japan, but you have zeroed in on this one. What's your angle? Maybe you have the problem. That's it. The problem is yours. If you are going to come out and accuse the guy of lying than do it. Stop making innuendos and man up and tell us what's really on your mind.
DnA
Anon, why are you afraid to reveal your identity? Are you afraid of what dub will of you if he knew you were on here? Just curious.
mdr
Former Pastor wrote...
Ntcc has a lot of issues that we do not have to grab at straws in order to discuss them.
Chief wrote...
I'm not sure if this is what you were saying but I don't feel we were grabbing for straws with this one. If you look at the other thread, M. Reed was just verifying and being more explicit about what had already been posted. Well you give me a story and I'm going to put it on the front page and I haven't seen too many stories that trump this one. Former Pastor, we're trying to get peoples attention around here and this story was a good way to do it.
I know this got people's attention and do you know how I know? The nifty little device called the "hit counter". I've been at this for a few years now and let me tell you how it works. The old humdrum Davis and Kekel are hypocrites has been written a billion times and is of little interest to anyone.
Something like this gets posted and people start making phone calls telling their NTCC friends, "Hey you got to read this one on Jeff Collins' blog". You think I'm kidding? Not one bit. That is exactly what happens and the hit counter goes through the roof and when the hit counter goes through the roof, people leave the NTCC for good and regain control of their life. They break the clutches of a cult. How about you Former NTCC Pastor? I'll bet you've got a few good doozies that will get people's attention? You feel like giving me a front page blockbuster or two?
Hey, I think I'm doing mankind a service with this blog and sometimes I even think that just maybe the Lord is blessing me because of it? Of course there is no way I could say for sure but things sure have been working out for me for a while now. There is one thing I can say for sure. Life is a whole lot better since I left the NTCC. That's for sure. If the NTCC shut their doors tomorrow, I'd throw a party because this world would be a whole lot better off. Take care Former Pastor and have a good one.
Chief
Jeff said "Take care Former Pastor and have a good one."
Jeff, maybe you should have said "Take care CURRENT Pastor!"
mdr
The dude reminds me of Briggs. You might be on to something.
I'm pretty certain that it's not Briggs. Nothing coming from within 300 miles of Pasadena Texas the whole day. Unless Briggs is somewhere else, it ain't him. From what I can tell it's more likely coming from either Illinois or Tacoma Washington but that ain't certain either. Probable but not certain.
Chief
MDR said...
Jeff, maybe you should have said "Take care CURRENT Pastor!"
Chief said...
Maybe but I doubt it. If he says he's been out for years that's probably the case. When you post anonymously, there is not much reason to lie I wouldn't think.
Chief
Gentleman, not sure why it matters who I am. I' ve posted in the past by other descriptive signatures. I believe they add value when posting anonymously because you can atleast get an idea where someone is coming from. I choose not to share my name for professional reasons. We understand the value of this type of blog. Employers may perceive it as behavior they do not want to invite into their company. So I don't want one of the only places on the internet to find my name to be associated with a potential negative impression.
Thats for mdr & don. I dont mind answering honest questions. Even if you are questioning my veracity. Thats how you find out if its reliable. Now, perhaps mdr will return the favor? Unless like ntcc he believes his word should be above being scrutinized.
FNP
If the guy can be taken at his word. I made mention that he sounded like Briggs, and he does. His main focus is on finding fault with MDR's account of Kinson's impropriety. I wouldn't be surprised if Bro. Reed is right about this guy still being in. Briggs usually takes ownership of his comments. But this anonymous poster who calls himself Former Ntcc Pastor could still be in. Many of the faculty in the ntcc seminary are former ntcc pastors. The agenda of former ntcc pastor sure does seem to pattern itself after the ntcc.
Not sure if he is in or out but he posts anonymously for a reason. At the very least, I would say that Former pastor has a problem with Bro. Reed. Maybe I think this way because I can't understand why people that leave the ntcc and have all the information available to them on this blog would have the same agenda as the ntcc. It's a mystery to me.
When the anonymous poster brought details of the Kinson debacle to this blog, I had reservations about believing someone who was anonymous although my gut told me it was true. When MDR confirmed it I believed it. 2 or 3 witnesses, right Rwd? Isn't that what you require ntcc leaders? It makes sense now. I couldn't understand why a guy would kill his family and himself just because he couldn't be in Servicemen's work. I can understand how that after he reported Kinson's adultery to the leadership and they turned on Moreno messing with his mind and his spiritual well being that would cause a man to snap.
The ntcc is one seriously messed up bunch of people. If you hold to the teachings of the ntcc and you regurgitate the same philosophies, you might as well still be in. If you accuse people of lying then identify yourself. You are the one that has credibility issues Former pastor. If someone came on the blogs and tried to slander me with an anonymous ID, I wouldn't give them the time of day either.
DnA
Anon said "Employers may perceive it as behavior they do not want to invite into their company. So I don't want one of the only places on the internet to find my name to be associated with a potential negative impression."
Well, anon, if you're that afraid of your reputation being marred by being on this blog with the rest of us, maybe you should just remain a casual observer then.
I am simply amazed at the attitude of current NTCCers. They want to give grace and forgiveness to the NTCC leadership's actions, but at the same time have condemned all that post on these blogs to Hell and the Lake that burns with fire and Brimestone. Why do the NTCC leadership get a pass and others do not? I am not saying they have not been forgiven, I have also had to go to God and repent and receive that grace, but I acknowledged my sin and God has delivered me. You can't get forgiveness if you do not acknowledge that it was a sin in the first place.
For those that say we need proof to believe what is being exposed, I want to ask you of what proof does NTCC leadership use before getting up in conference and blasting someone for something that was reported to them? They don't even investigate before they use it in preaching. I know this for a fact.
A few conferences ago Rev. Kekel got up and blasted a lady for wearing hiphuggers in conference. I thought who would do such a thing? Come to find out out some lying, brown nosing, political hack of a sister reported to him that MY WIFE was wearing hiphuggers. All they would have had to do is ask her, but they did not. Because as I have stated many times, that we were giving most of what we earn back to the church, my wife made her own clothes. We are African-American and my wife has the typical female African-American figure; "baby got back." She had to make the hip section a lot larger than the waist section. She wore a jacket over the area to hide the difference, but there was a service that got "excited" and she got hot and figured since she was surrounded by other women that it would be no big deal to remove her jacket to cool down. All Rev. Kekel had to do was ask and he could have avoided this, but he did not.
Be not deceived God is not mocked for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap. This scripture also applies to the NTCC leadership. They have rebuke and condemned hundreds of people without proof and they are reaping what they have sown.
Bro. Bellamy
Tacoma Washington is likely where FNP is from. Hey this is Jeff, how is it going? He ain't Briggs for sure. I understand why you don't want your identity openly published here on this blog. I don't blame you on bit.
Chief
Bro Bellamy wrote...
They have rebuke and condemned hundreds of people without proof and they are reaping what they have sown.
Chief said...
You better believe it Bro. That's what it's all about.
Chief
Just a personal update for those that know me and my wife and for those that believe some misfortune is going to happen to you if you leave NTCC. God is so much bigger than one church organization. I am amazed at myself for limiting him to such.
WE LEFT NTCC WE DID NOT LEAVE GOD!!!
My wife and I are doing great. I have not felt closer to God in years. I am currently seeking my minister's license through, interesting enough, Church Of God. Those that know NTCC's history will understand that statement. Next month I will begin my Nursing Home Ministry through Church Of God.
God has also blessed us financially. In just a few months of leaving NTCC, We have no outstanding credit card debt and I am in the process of adding an addition to my home that will be a new master bedroom suite and also new master bathroom with a jacuzzi tub and walk-in shower. We have already paid for a cruise in December to the Bahamas.
Rev. Kekel I know you are reading this. You told me that you would email me as longs as I stayed sincere. I am sincere!!! And that is one of the reasons that I had not posted for some time. You said it would be soon, but it has been 2 months and nothing. This makes me question your sincerity and motives.
Bro. Bellamy
"Well, anon, if you're that afraid of your reputation being marred by being on this blog with the rest of us, maybe you should just remain a casual observer then."
Yep.
FNP said:
Thats for mdr & don. I dont mind answering honest questions. Even if you are questioning my veracity. Thats how you find out if its reliable. Now, perhaps mdr will return the favor? Unless like ntcc he believes his word should be above being scrutinized.
DnA said:
That's between you and MDR. My issue with you is that you seem to be consumed with trying to discredit Bro. Reed instead of believing his report. Why does this matter to me? Because people come on these blogs with intentions that are misplaced. You answered one question about why you are anonymous but you skirted around the issue at hand. You asked three questions that showed your bias plainly. Briggs used to do the same thing on this blog. Rather than commenting on the material, he would go straight to the credibility of the source.
The ntcc does the same thing over and over and over. They never investigate the story first they just blast the person that told it and discredit them before the story has a chance to be verified. So I ask you again FNP, Why are you so bent on placing the Reeds in a negative light? Come right out and spit out the truth. What is it that you have against the Reeds? Talk about avoiding the obvious.
Mark G said...
"Well, anon, if you're that afraid of your reputation being marred by being on this blog with the rest of us, maybe you should just remain a casual observer then."
Chief said...
Hey Mark, your my buddy but I got to disagree on this one. My lively hood means a whole lot more to me then this blog. Some companies will absolutely hold any involvement with this kind of forum against you. The main reason I reverted to primarily going with the name "Chief" is for that very reason. I pulled down my profile for that same reason. Even though I'm out of the NTCC now, the NTCC already got me and damage has already been done. Loosing my job because of this blog would mean they got me again and I don't want that to happen. I'd take down this blog in a minute if it ever came to that.
Taking care of my family is more important than the stupid, abusive hypocritical double standard NTCC.
So my friend, I understand where the dude is coming from.
AKA Chief
Paranoid Dna said
"Many of the faculty in the ntcc seminary are former ntcc pastors. The agenda of former ntcc pastor sure does seem to pattern itself after the ntcc."
You folks have more conspiracy theories than J Edgar Hoover!
Well Chief, Then we can just disagree agreeably. There are ways to let people know who you are on the Internet without giving out your full Name,Social,and Date of Birth. I mean, we all pretty much know each other out here either personally, or we know someone who knows someone we don't know personally. There are ways of doing thing discreetly where you don't draw attention to yourself. I think this anonymous poster has drawn more attention to himself by NOT giving people some idea of who he is than he would if he did.
Anonymous said:
"You folks have more conspiracy theories than J Edgar Hoover!"
DnA said:
Thanks, we'll take that as a compliment. We know what the ntcc stands for and what they are all about. We are still living in the good old USofA and I would submit to you that the ntcc has as much or more to cover up than J. Edgar Hoover. FNP is the one grasping for straws in his fault finding expedition. When you make a living off of destroying peoples lives, don't be surprised if those you have harmed come back to expose you as hypocrites.
DnA
I understand the reasoning behind posting anonymously, but I also know that there are people that use "anonymous" as a cloak to hide behind. It's all too easy to anonymously accsuse people. How often does anyone in the ntcc come on here with their true identity? Briggs and who else? Not too many. My point being we are not trying to hide anything. We have told our life stories and we have given credibility to our stories by using our names. Kekel wont even answer questions from anonymous postings and he has even come on fact net using really stupid aliases like Whirlwind. My point is that you have very little credibility when you hide behind anonymous. There wasn't much credence given to the Kinson whore-mongering Episode until someone with a name and credibility came on to verify it. Why don't you use the same scrutiny towards Kinson and Kekel that you are using toward Reed? Go on their blog anonymously and ask them if they committed adultery and see how far that gets you.
DnA
As for what bro. bellamy wrote about the "sister" that was whispering gossip to the leaders about his wife, it is true this is
a typical environment in the ntcc, people trying to ruin your character so that you won't advance in the org. which really is all pride, anyways. Plus you will have to jump through alot of hoops, and if rwd doesn't like you than you're toast, my friend, you will forever be a little peon, going here and there, and having nothing to show for it.
I understand bellamy 100% because I heard all the time how that sisters would want to be friends only to find out things about you and then go and gossip about you to the leaders.
It seems that you chief, are already entertaining the possibility of going away and I wouldn't blame you. Don't think for one minute that ntcc will act aloof and distant, I remember kinson saying: I keep my friends close but my enemies closer.
So, there is probably people going around to see how they can bring you down.
If they can discredit you like they did pelfrey, they probably are looking for ways to bring things from your past or your service years, I dont doubt it for one minute.
There's the hypocrisy about it because when they have so much baggage they don't allow others the same thing.
Look how they treated marshall and blumenthal, they ran them out of town in a blink not thinking about their their spiritual welfare.
I remember one conference rwd standing up and saying that marshall or blumenthal had pleaded with him to please let him attend one of the ntcc churches, but rwd said that he couldn't allow it.
My guess is that once you know stuff that can put ntcc in a bad light you are marked and will do the best to get you out.
Why would they have somebody "in" that can do harm to the new teeny boopers?
They would get rid of the old timers just so that the new organization will continue on, that is for sure.
And the story continues...........
Anonymous said...
You folks have more conspiracy theories than J Edgar Hoover!
Chief said...
Ha, ha, ha!!!! LOL. That was good. You know there is SOME truth to what you said. Can you blame us? After all the NTCC dirt I've read about, that kind of thing happens. That is a good one. I mean the NTCC leadership are some real crooks and that isn't a theory. Well when you have conclusive evidence of all these things happening so much, you begin to NEVER trust their motives.
I don't know who you are but you have a good sense of humor and their is some truth to what you've written.
I don't trust any preachers any longer. They have to earn my trust now and I use my NTCC experience as a catalyst to spot the phony ones. I'd say 96% - 98% of the stories written here on on the money having come from personal experience and eye witness. The other 2% - 4% is speculation of which half of that is J Edgar Hoover no doubt. Man I just got a good laugh when I re-looked at your statement to make sure I spelled Hoover's entire name right. You are a funny guy whoever you are. Thanks for the post.
Sincerely,
Chief
Mark G wrote...
Well Chief, Then we can just disagree agreeably.
Chief said...
I can dig that Mark. You and I can disagree. Real friends can do that. The NTCC doesn't work that way. If RWD moderated this blog, he would have written back, "If you don't like what I've written Mark, there is the door, don't let it hit you in the butt when you exit this blog". Ha, ha. Am I right Mark? It is what it is Bro. No two people are the same, so folks like us won't always agree. You are cool with me Bro. I just wouldn't be real if I always agreed with exers when I knew I really didn't.
I'll give you a call when I get a chance. Have a good one.
Chief
"Well, anon, if you're that afraid of your reputation being marred by being on this blog with the rest of us, maybe you should just remain a casual observer then."
Anonymous posting has its legitimate place. Let's not forget that the Kinson scandal was broached anonymously.
Anon said "You folks have more conspiracy theories than J Edgar Hoover!"
Well, Kinson committing adultery in Japan is not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact.
Davis promoting Kinson to a leadership position after the fact, when he said he would never do that, is not a conspiracy theory. It's a fact!
Davis lied, the Morenos died! Now there's a conspiracy for you!
It is quite interesting what bellamy wrote about kekel telling him that if bellamy stayed sincere, kekel would e-mail bellamy to keep in touch.
It sounds like kekel is still controlling bellamy from afar.
Maybe bellamy doesn't see it this way but
It just seemed weird that bellamy who is doing so good being out of ntcc, now is trying to force kekel into writing him, because as bellamy put it, he is staying "sincere" and hadn't posted in this blog!????
I mean, why would bellamy think that he would be treated differently than the others that have left?
Once you leave ntcc, you are considered out of the will of God.
Sounds like Kekel still has control of Bellamy. I could care less if Kekel stayed in touch with me. Its one thing being brainwashed while you are in the NTCC but another if it happens even after you got out. Kekel don't care about Bellamy. Kekel just cares about damage control.
"If you don't post on those blogs, I'll keep emailing you which will make you real happy".
Sorry Im not interested.
Maybe Edward wants to go the extra mile and insure that any discord isn't chargeable to him. He's kept his end of the agreement, but Mike is reneging. He is obviously not under NTCC control.
Who is Kekel anyway? Just another church manager out for everyones money. I don't make agreements with guys like that.
Anonymous said:
"It sounds like kekel is still controlling bellamy from afar."
DnA said:
Here we go again, with the condescending attitude and trying to discredit someone. You sound a lot like FNP, anonymous, in that you write one or two sentences that are true and then the body of your comment conveys your true feelings. In this instance you put the only true sentence at the end of your comment "Once you leave ntcc, you are considered out of the will of God", and you spent the rest of your comment questioning the integrity and character of Bro Bellamy.
You might be fooling some people but what you are really doing is trying to lessen the credibility of what Bro. Bellamy said by interrogating his motives, just like FNP did to Bro. Reed. Is this a J. Edgar Hoover conspiracy theory? This tells me that the anonymous author of this comment is trying to deflect attention off of the fact that Mike Kekel told Bro. Bellamy a big "Wolf Cookie" of a lie, and rather than hold Kekel's feet to the fire, you want to question Bellamy's integrity.
You sound just like the serpent in the Garden of Eden. You use many true words mingled with one falsehood, which makes everything said false. In the process you falsely accuse the Godly. We all know satan is the accuser of the brethren and your accusations are false.
DnA
Mike Kekel is always going to have an excuse for not doing the right thing. He is always going to have a "spin" for something and he is always going to take orders from his fat,puffy, swollen,bloated,loud,overly opinionated wife. My time is way to precious to want to deal with someone like him.
Of course, I had to find that out the hard way.
he is always going to take orders from his fat,puffy, swollen,bloated,loud,overly opinionated wife.
That is crazy. Better be careful. You are talking about Miriam there. I'm surprised she hasn't had leprosy pop up on her forehead yet. That was too funny.
Many of you have already stated in the past that commenting on this blog is therapeutic and vital to recovering from what you faced during our life with NTCC. It is just as therapeutic for me to talk one on one with them. It may not be for you, but it is for me.
Also I know that the only reason that things are changing in NTCC is because of this blog and others like it. I may not always agree with what is said on the blog, but I know that it is neccessary. We all have good friends in NTCC and many of them are just waiting to make their exit. Others will see the changes and remember how Pastor Davis taught that if we did not conform then we were in direct rebellion to God and would die and go to hell. They will ask themselves, why was it rebellion then and not now? Did God change his mind or were they just man-made rules in the first place? When that line of questioning begins then it want be long until they see NTCC for what it is. They will begin to realize that God is God not NTCC or its leaders. There is freedom in God's grace and mercy and not all the fear of man.
We all contribute in our own way. God made us different.
I also agree with DnA that whoever it was is trying to take the focus off of NTCC reaping what they have sown.
Bro. Bellamy
I had to sign off so I was not able to finish my comment.
I also would rather tell someone they lied or that I disagree with them face to face than indirectly through a blog.
I translated Rev. Kekel's statement as "as long as you don't share on the blog what we discuss then the lines of communication would stay open." I was fine with that, because I wanted him to know how I felt and that I have been in communication with others still in NTCC that feel the same way. I am not sowing discord, because they know me and my wife and they asked me; I didn't seek them out.
I know things that are taking place in NTCC and have taken place that I have been asked not to discuss by those that have made their exit and what seems to me of others that are making plans to exit. They are reading this blog and they know that I have kept my word.
Again, my point is that NTCC cannot complain about people accusing them without proof, because they have done it for years and they are REAPING WHAT THEY HAVE SOWN!!!.
Bro. Bellamy
Things get lost in translation when you write something.
I didn't mean to sound that way when I pointed out what bellamy said about staying sincere.
Sometimes we are very untrusting of the intentions of others because of what we have gone through.
Thanks chief for this blog and allowing us to keep writing.
Edward wrote...
This makes me question your sincerity and motives.
Chief wrote...
Bro Bellamy, I'm convinced that Mike's primary motive was to keep you away from this blog. Correct my if you think I'm way off but the impression I get is that he was saying, "we can stay in contract as long as you are not constantly bagging on the organization that I'm the CEO of". If you think I'm wrong, by all means correct me.
Chief
"Bro Bellamy, I'm convinced that Mike's primary motive was to keep you away from this blog. Correct my if you think I'm way off but the impression I get is that he was saying, "we can stay in contract as long as you are not constantly bagging on the organization that I'm the CEO of". If you think I'm wrong, by all means correct me."
Yeah, it all hinges on one's definition of "sincere." The NTCC leadership frequently devises custom meanings for common words, and in this case, as Chief observes, Mike no doubt views Edward's participation here as evidence that he lacks what he personally defines as sincerity.
Mike also told me he was going to telephone me some years back, but when he discovered that I had made disparaging private remarks about his father-in-law and overlord, he changed his mind. It appears that deduced from what I had stated that I wouldn't be easily manipulated and used for propaganda purposes, and he certainly wasn't going to call me out of mere concern for my perishing soul. No, he had an agenda, and if I wasn't going to fit it, he wasn't going to waste time on spiritual matters.
I stated earlier that is what I believed he was saying, but I was fine with that as long as what I wanted to get accomplished was accomplished. The problem is that he didn't keep his part, which proves he wasn't sincere. I told him my motives. It was therapeutic for me. I asked pointed question and got no answers. I have read that most of you have also asked questions of him and received no answer, but I can't use your experience I have to have my own and now I too know that he would not answer the questions.
You also have to understand (and I believe that you do)that those of you that comment daily are keeping the blog alive and going. But everyone is use to you. I read the blog pretty frequently, but I don't read everything that everyone says, but I do look for those that don't comment frequently and read everything that they say and I believe that others do the same thing. I do this to help the blog along and to have a bigger impact. I am not saying anything that has not been said by all of you, but because I say it a little different and I don't comment often then they will get the message that you are saying. Any time I see MDR I read everything he says. You would be surprised to know who reads this blog that are in NTCC and agrees with it. They may not like how it is said but they know that it is true.
We all are playing a role to help those that we care about, and to stop others from wasting there youth.
Bro. Bellamy
Bro. Bellamy said...
We all are playing a role to help those that we care about, and to stop others from wasting there youth.
LTravis said...
"Deception: To mislead by giving a distorted impression or false sense of
reality. To trick; to cheat; to beguile. The ancient Greeks used the word to
describe the pleasure that comes from watching the theater. Deception is
being pacified and placated by unreality. Pain and confusion result from
trusting false promises or believing a lie."
The hardest thing to overcome is our pride because we don't want to admit we were wrong. The ntcc is not of God they only steal from you. They robbed me of many wonderful things the Lord had for me. The opposite of love is pride that's what rwd is selling you.
Anonymous said:
"Things get lost in translation when you write something.
I didn't mean to sound that way when I pointed out what bellamy said about staying sincere."
DnA said:
You are right about that and I understood your original point. When a person leaves the ntcc, there is a process that takes place, returning to a normal life, unlearning so many false teachings and trying to make sense of it all. I don't think that Bro. Bellamy is being controlled by Mike Kekel. Maybe in this one instance you are correct but I believe that in the grand scheme of things that Bro. Bellamy is his own man. When I left the ntcc, I was completely controlled by them. I wouldn't say anything negative against them because of the fear that was placed in me. I thought that leaving the ntcc was equivalent to leaving God, and it wasn't until fourteen years later that I realized that a person can not only have a relationship with God outside of the ntcc but that a person can have a better relationship, free of interference from people that would limit God in your life.
I believe that Bro. Bellamy is doing more to forward this same belief than just about anyone who has posted on here in a long time. When ntcc'rs see him post on here they know that he is sincere and it speaks to them. This is not what Kekel wants. My focus is on what is helpful to people that are stuck in the ntcc and those whose lives have been tragically ruined and their growth in God stunted. Sometimes this means pointing out hypocrisy and putting the facts out there for everyone to see. The ntcc will not address these issues in a civil forum, but they discredit everything we say and attribute it to the devil. It might seem like dirty work to those that read but it's necessary for people to know the truth.
While your point may have been correct regarding Bro. Bellamy, (I'm not trying to interpret the brother's motives so I can't say conclusively that Bro. B. was being manipulated by Kekel), I didn't think that should be the focus. This is a free country and one of the things that makes blogging therapeutic is that you can say what you want, and you definitely are entitled to your opinion. I have opinions and they might not all be right, but I am free on this blog to state them and so should you be.
Opinions are opinions, and your's are just as legitimate as mine. I think that you were right in that yours were lost in translation and I probably overreacted in my first response. Sometimes I attack, when I should just chill out and be cool about things. There is often a better approach and I'll do my best to find it in the future.
DnA
When I hear somebody talk or write something, I tend to scrutinize every little phrase or word.
Many times in the ntcc I got burned by saying something, that I thought wasn't that relevant, but to those I was speaking apparently was, specially if it was somebody in leadership.
I got burned by minister's wifes for they react to every little detail and they in turn go and rat on you to the pastor or leaders.
How many times we got preached by some insignificant detail like when you had people over and they saw something in your home and they would tell somebody about it and they made you into this big sinner about it, like a sister that was given a decoration and she thankfully was displaying it in her home and somebody was saying that she had a pagan sign god in her home, just little things like that.
I remember when radio theater was on the radio and we all started hearing it and then somebody started saying things about it that it was sinful because one of the people that was in leadership said something about it and the snow ball started rolling from there, which in turn the preaching was about how some people preferred to hear the stupid radio show than reading the bible or praying!!!
So much distrust existed in the realms of ntcc.
Anonymous said, "the snow ball started rolling from there, which in turn the preaching was about how some people preferred to hear the stupid radio show than reading the bible or praying!!!
So much distrust existed in the realms of ntcc."
Don and Ange say,
Not only did distrust exist, dishonesty and hypocrisy also abounded.
Sis Johnson, the overseer's wife, used to routinely copy other people's audio books on tape. Like once a week she'd buy ten blank tapes with which to make bootleg copies of books on cassette. You know, get the book on tape from the library, buy some cheap TDK tapes from Wal-Mart, then make a copy to keep of the book. The companies who make books on tape never received a dime for their work.
I have several bootleg copies of books like that from my ntcc days. I need to repent and buy the books from the company that produced them or destroy my copies that I made!
I even still have the bootleg copy of the Pilgrim's Progress that Jan Mears recorded for me and gave to me when we worked together at the ntcc campground. Her daughter, Terra Annis lived in Reading, Calif. for a while (so did Jan and Russ' son Ed Mears) "building a work" for the ntcc. If I remember correctly, Terra and Curtis' landlord was the man who produced the audio version of the Pilgrim's Progress. Wonder how he would feel if he knew how many bootleg copies ntcc ministers' wives had made and distributed of his work, all without him receiving "just renumeration"? OF course now Jan Mears won't even be a facebook friend. You know, why stay friends with someone who no longer attends your cult? I mean, put aside commons sense that tells you leaving a church does not equal leaving God, sear your conscience and say, "I know there are other Christians "out there" [hmmn, outside the fence?] but it couldn't be that my friend is actually a Christian because davis spread lies about her and her late ex-husband, so let's believe the lie instead of believing what we know is true..." Gotta say, I'm quite disappointed in the Mears. They always said they would leave a church when they were told a lie. Well, you have been lied to so many times that it is a shame to consider. But what do you do? You remain in the cult, lying to yourselves. Sad. I really thought better of you.
Man where do I start, this thread brings out so many emotions. I knew the Moreno family and was part of the San Antonio church from 1999 – 2003. I have good memories of them like most of you. Great soul winners’ people who loved God; we don’t know what happened or what went wrong. Roland came out to church 2 days before the tragedy, he was the same crazy guy making jokes and being funny; you wouldn’t have ever thought something was wrong. Then I heard what happened, a lot of people were hurting some sisters had to start taking medication for depression. I still ask the question why sometimes.
This thread has brought something’s to light. I knew the Moreno’s where in Bible College, but I never knew why they left. This is the first time I have ever heard the Rev Kinson story. If only they would have left NTCC altogether maybe they wouldn’t be a story, this is really sad!
Rickey Claiborne
Rickey Claiborne said...
some sisters had to start taking medication for depression
Chief said...
That is a very common occurrence in the NTCC. Depression runs rampant in the NTCC. You must ask yourself. If God is so involved with the NTCC, then why do so many people who are involved with the NTCC wind up taking medication for PTSD, depression, anxiety etc? Because the NTCC is a CULT. Cults cause depression, PTSD, anxiety and all kinds of other mental disorders which cause people like Moreno to loose their mind.
People, I've been saying this over and over and over and over. Continued involvement with the NTCC is very dangerous and I'm not kidding one single bit. The NTCC will mess you up and do irreversible damage to your LIFE. Once you figure it out, in many cases it's too late. Entirely too much damage has already been done. The years you waste, you can never get back. The money you waste paying for the Kekel's luxuries, you can never get back, (not likely). The career opportunities you pass up, will never be offered again. The divisions you put between you and your family in many cases cause irreparable damage.
If it was all really for God, that would be ok, but the problem is everyone eventually realizes that the NTCC isn't about God! It's about pleasing RWD, Kekel, Olson and a bunch of brainwashed pastors and overseers. If they are not brainwashed they are deliberately using you for nothing other than your money.
How can I state that so conclusively? Because all the NTCC dirt we expose right here on this blog, they already know about it. So they reach a point where they deliberately ignore all the injustice and crookedness and continue on by making money the easiest way they know how; by accepting free will offerings and tithes from others. It's their lively hood. It's not about holiness, it's not about trying to please God, it's about taking care of themselves the easiest way they know how.
What if you didn't have to work and you got your money because it was simply given to you by everyone else? Do you think you'd be quick to give that up? Most of us wouldn't. So they get rich while most of the people around them struggle.
You all better wake up!!! Life only comes once. If you throw your life away fiddling around with the NTCC you are not going to get a second chance.
Chief
I was thinking about this mess the ntcc has created and I think it all started when someone decided to make God fit thier personality.
It all comes down to the love of money,pride and in thier arrogance they boast.
We don't get to decide who God is. ~Francis Chan
Rickey Claiborne said,
Roland came out to church 2 days before the tragedy, he was the same crazy guy making jokes and being funny; you wouldn’t have ever thought something was wrong.
Here's a J. Edgar Hoover conspiracy theory for ya:
Perhaps Phil Kinson and his buddies had the Moreno's knocked off. I believe they are capable of murder. They have spiritually destroyed and wrecked so many lives for a few bucks, why would it be such an astonishment that they would physically kill someone? What's the difference? Death is death. The guy comes out to church two days prior to the tragedy, joking and everything seems normal?
There is not one account of Roland ever showing any signs of being capable of committing murder. He could have been forced at gunpoint or perhaps he was shot first, we'll never know, but God knows. If he did kill himself and his family, there has to be more to Kinson's dirty little secret. How do you live with yourself when you are the cause of a double/triple murder suicide?
What the ntcc does is worship man more than God.
Anonymous said...
Here's a J. Edgar Hoover conspiracy theory for ya:
Chief said...
I think that is a stretch. I no longer put anything past these NTCC guys but I still think that is a stretch. Good J. Edgar Hoover conspiracy theory though.
Chief
I was thinking of something, I worked, {not babysitting or cleaning houses} those apparently don't count. I paid my tithe every month for I don't know something like 5 years, before I quit to stay home with my babies, I am female, not one time did anyone stop and say to my husband," you know Brother, it is a sin for your wife to work, she is the keeper of the home and you are prostituting her out in the workplace". How rediculous this is, they never once said, why is she working, they cashed my check every single time. My husband said the same thing. All they saw was dollar signs, combinded we would be tithing over quite a bit of money every month without fail, I might add. Thats big bucks, when most of these poor brothers had wives cleaning houses making a mere 25.00 per house or babysitting. No wonder they, Kekel and Mrs Davis sis Malone, sis Kinson would be so kind to me, not the other preachers wives they seemed to dislike me. I always thought, its just my own self consciousness. But they really did not like me, nice clothes, nice shoes, nice handbags, they just looked at me like I was "not right", don't get me wrong, I shed the makeup, wore the the long skirts and grew out my hair, all to please the NTCC doctrine, now I know better, I still wear the skirts, pants too. but I stopped looking like my Mother, and dressing and wearing my hair like my Grandma, you don't need to do all that to serve God. Anyway, its just a look almost a aesthetic to "look like" a NTCC woman, slim, fat whatever, probably, none of the women feel good about themselves and I was one of them for many years. I now know that you can dress a certain way and look a certain way and claim to be a Christian woman and be far from it. God is helping me to see this. Don't get me wrong, I am not resentful, but I do feel I was robbed of a lot of years I could have done more for myself, career, personal imprpovement etc. But it is never too late. NTCC ladies wake up...
the suicidal appear happy before the deed because they finally came to a decision.
pastors do not help to tell people they need to get saved every 5 minutes. or telling them they might as well sin all the way than try to live for God w/o the org. planting thoughts in a person's head about His grace is equally as devious.
"But it is never too late. NTCC ladies wake up..."
makes no sense to starve or be behind on bills! does permission make it less right?
I am so glad that God is the Judge when it comes to suicide. He knows every chemical in our body, balanced or imbalanced. He knows when we are in our right frame of mind and when we are not. He knows all about depression and despondency and the causes of it. He is the eternal Saviour of our soul. And it doesn't matter what state of mind the body is in when someone takes their life - God looks and loves the eternal soul.
"the suicidal appear happy before the deed because they finally came to a decision."
Sorry, can't accept that. Happy people do not kill themselves!
Say what? said...
"the suicidal appear happy before the deed because they finally came to a decision."
its true. look it up.
btw Moreno killed himself after the cops arrived. no murder conspiracy.
"Sorry, can't accept that. Happy people do not kill themselves!"
There is a distinction between being happy and appearing happy. Lots of miserable people do their best to appear happy, and often succeed.
Anonymous said...
btw Moreno killed himself after the cops arrived. no murder conspiracy.
Chief said...
It's good to know the facts. I know the NTCC leadership is cold blooded. It would really be frightening if they were also cold blooded murders. Based on what you wrote, at least in this case we can conclude that they weren't. J. Edgar Hoover baby.
Cha Chief
RDUB is a scary guy. No telling what he is capable of.
Is it possible that the memory of Mr. Reed is lacking in the historical record of this alleged incident concerning the Okinawa church?
He has said many times in many places that Mr Ashmore "pioneered" / started the church and servicemen's home in Okinawa and he, Mr. Reed replaced Mr. Ashmore as the Pastor when Mr. Ashmore left Okinawa.
How can Mr. Kinson have been replaced by Mr. Ashmore?
Mr. Kinson has never in any past fellowship or conversations spoken about being a Pastor in Okinawa. He has spoken of Korea, Philippines, Ft Lewis, and traveling overseer.
Okinawa is a Marine and Air Force home. How is it that Mr. Reed would be the Pastor of Mr. Moreno after Mr. Moreno left Okinawa? Mr. Reed was never a Pastor of a Marine servicemen's home except Okinawa when He replaced Mr. Ashmore.
If one brings an accusation of adultery and accomplice to suicide/murder, then one must prove beyond a shadow of a doubt by producing irrefutable evidence.
The Shadow
The shadow said...
Mr. Kinson has never in any past fellowship or conversations spoken about being a Pastor in Okinawa.
Chief said...
Imagine that. Would you talk about it if you got caught coming out of a whore house there and replaced by Ashmore? It doesn't surprise me the Kinson never talked about it. I suppose he was suppose to tell you he pioneered a whore house also? "Yo Phil, how many hoes were you running in the whore house every Sunday". "About 50 hoes for morning and evening service". "A lot of brothers were praying to get (serviced)" if you know what I mean". "It was a reeeal good service".
Wow Sherlock (I mean shadow), you're not the sharpest tack in the box. So much for your J. Edgar Hoover theory cause it didn't take a genius to figure that one out.
Chief
Shadow said
"Mr. Kinson has never in any past fellowship or conversations spoken about being a Pastor in Okinawa."
Whaaat!!?? Are they passing out crack at fellowship now? Of course he was there! Guess what doofus you have more than 2 or 3 witnesses that can place him! I guess he was raptured back to the states for no reason!
Whiplash
You go Whiplash.
Chief
I thought I remembered Ashmore replacing Blumenthal in Okinawa. At that time, Kinson was in Graham, and so was I. Was there another time when Ashmore had to be dispatched to Okinawa? I left in 1995, so wouldn't necessarily be aware of any subsequent musical-pastor maneuvers (which were quite frequent).
I'm sure Matt can provide the relevant details.
Maybe Ashmore was regularly chosen to replace ministers who were cheating on their wives. Isn't that what happened to Blumenthal also? They ought to call the New Testament Christian Church, Peyton Place.
Every time a minister was involved in some type of Sexual misconduct, Rwd would send someone important to replace them. I've witnessed this five times in thirteen years. Many times there would be an overseer that took over for a few days until a new pastor was chosen. Davis himself would come through for a day or two if he had someone on their way to replace the Adultering minister or their wife that was caught cheating. There were two instances where ministers and their wives had to be replaced because their wives were cheating on their husbands. They are never allowed to stay but they usually only get a slap on the wrist and they are allowed to go back into another work and continue doing whatever it is that they do.
Not sure how long Ashmore was in Japan, but is it possible that he was there for a short period to conduct damage control and plow Moreno's fields a few times? Not sure how that whole situation played out. I know that in my involvement with Nichelle Tieman, Davis treated me like I never was involved. He had me driving him around and told me to stay away from them until they left the following day. He was treating me like a king and I was just as guilty as she was, albeit I was not an ntcc trained holiness pastor at the time.
The ntcc creates an environment that is fertile for sexual misconduct and when it happens, which it does quite frequently, they have protocol they follow. They always remove the pastor and send a board member to conduct damage control prior to turning the work back over to an another possibly destructive preacher that can end up committing the same lewd acts as the one before them. When you provide room and board to a bunch of horny soldiers and the wife is very loose and flirtatious you are going to have problems. Most of the wives of the servicemen's home directors that I had been around were appropriate and didn't flaunt themselves or flirt with the brethren. When a person is allowed to marry and love the person they are intended to be with it takes a lot of frustration out of the picture. When people are manipulated and matched up by some old adulterous perverted geezer, they often end up having marital problems just like the one's that put them together for the rest of their lives. It is a very damaging practice, and many people have suffered because of it.
Vic said:
"I'm sure Matt can provide the relevant details."
I'm not so sure Matt can provide legitimate details, Vic. His memory seems to follow the theory of evolution and change every few months. He's good at calling neutral casual observers "doofus" but unable to give dates and/or "witnesses" of Kinson being in Okinawa.
The Shadow
Mr Shunk spent some time in Okinawa under Mr Blumenthal. He also spent some time in Korea as a Pastor. It is a known fact that the preachers in Asia usually have an Asian conference and frequently correspond.
I am sure Mr Shunk could provide some relevant details if there are any.
The Shadow
Shadow said:
"I'm not so sure Matt can provide legitimate details, Vic. His memory seems to follow the theory of evolution and change every few months."
DnA said:
Why don't you come out and say what is really on your mind? You post as Shadow, and seem like you have a problem. What is it? What is your angle? MDR came on this blog and spilled his guts as many of us have. Who are you? Do you have anything productive to add to this conversation? You are a hit and run drive by sniper.
This is why anonymous posters that spew out false allegations against others have no credibility. You sound like you have a problem with the Reeds and the Shunks. If you could at least contribute something with substance to this blog maybe people might believe you but until you do, nobody is going listen to you discredit others on here. You might get an amen or two from the ntcc crowd that has their heads stuck in the sand, but to the rest of us you are just making a feeble attempt to attack the credibility of someone that is free from the ntcc and it's double standards that we all know exist, (including you).
When you try to draw attention away from the original subject by attacking the credibility of others you actually give credence to the subject at hand. Now if you had details exonerating Phil Kinson from visiting a whorehouse in Japan, maybe people would believe you. What you are doing has the opposite effect. It's like when Clinton and his buddies tried to attack the credibility of Monica Lewinsky. She was easy to attack but it didn't make Clinton any less guilty of his escapades, neither does your attack on MDR's credibility make Phil Kinson any less guilty of his adultery with a prostitute in Japan.
DnA
DnA said:
When you try to draw attention away from the original subject by attacking the credibility of others you actually give credence to the subject at hand.
The subject at hand is Mr Reed's accusation against Mr Kinson.
My anonymous comments (allowed and encouraged by Mr Collins) have simply shed light and drawn attention to this very subject at hand.
Your feeble attempt to discredit what I have posted by attacking me simply gives credence to the words and message I have posted which are directly relevant to the subject at hand.
Perhaps you can contribute something of some substance to the subject at hand (verifiable details and/or proof would be a good start) but until you do, no one will believe you except the few who frequently post here and shout Amen to all things "X" ntcc.
The Shadow
Shadow said:
"Your feeble attempt to discredit what I have posted by attacking me simply gives credence to the words and message I have posted which are directly relevant to the subject at hand."
DnA said:
No, you are wrong. The subject is right next to this comment box, so when you write your next comment look a few inches to your left and you will see that the subject at hand is, "Oh the Hypocrisy That Drove a Man to Murder and Suicide." You have chosen to deviate from the subject and make it about someone else. It is about Kinson and his adultery, which the ntcc has a history of involvement with many acts of sexual misconduct.
When I was in the ntcc it was every man for himself. If a person was run off or blasted from behind the pulpit, there was no one to defend that person. Everyone agreed in unison and shouted, "Amen". But you have entered a community of people that think for themselves and it is very hard to take someone serious when they post as "Shadow" attacking the credibility of one who uses his name and his first hand experience in the ntcc to verify a story that was already floating around. Could it be, mr. shadow, that YOU are grasping at straws? Could it be that you are a part of a brainwashed bunch of cult members that refuses to believe that anyone in your realm has the capability of sinning? If this is true, I have news for you. The ntcc is the most corrupt church, if you even want to call it a church, that I have ever seen in my life. The catholic church has nothing on the ntcc. The ntcc is a cult that is full of pastors and board members that go along with all kinds of sexual impropriety within it's ranks and promotes those that excel in this arena.
I don't care if the ntcc has a history of licensing homosexuals, adulterers and convicted pedophiles but don't act like you are the only church on your way to heaven. People will always sin and if they are sincere they can find forgiveness at the cross but the ntcc never repents. They don't admit to anything but they act like their dung doesn't stink. They hide their sin by cloaking it with so called holiness and they impose rules and policies that are so stupid and have nothing to do with the bible on their cult members. I remember Kekel saying in conference that if a persons toenails protrude one inch beyond the threshold of their door after 10:00 pm, they were breaking their curfew. How stupid is that?
Chief does allow anonymous posters and encourages them and so do I, but when you try to discredit those who have been freed from the tyranny of the ntcc, you've come to the wrong place. Are you allowed to have an opinion? Sure you are. I was just pointing out the obvious to you mr. shadow, that your opinion is not doesn't amount to a hill of beans or the gas that a hill of beans would produce amongst the ntcc leadership, for they are a bunch of blow hards, spewing out hot air.
I would encourage you to continue posting because it's posts like yours that make a good case against the ntcc.
DnA
Shadow said:
"Perhaps you can contribute something of some substance to the subject at hand (verifiable details and/or proof would be a good start) but until you do, no one will believe you except the few who frequently post here and shout Amen to all things "X" ntcc."
DnA said:
Fair enough. MDR's testimony is more credible then yours and believe it or not there are people on your side of the fence that know his character and believe him. I would say that there are very few if any of us free thinkers that believe your story. I have seen pastors and their wifes commit lewd acts and use their office to obtain sexual favor in the ntcc too many times and each occurrence was brushed under the carpet and hidden from all of the other cult members. I'm sorry but the burden of proof now falls on you and your corrupt leadership to disprove MDR's testimony.
DnA
If the accusation against Phil is true, it shouldn't be that big of a deal for someone to document when he was actually in Okinawa, and getting hypersensitive about it won't help. Either he was there or he wasn't. If he was, maybe it happened. If he wasn't, Matt is either lying or mistaken.
So--when was Phil in Okinawa? Does anyone remember him going there? I don't, but I left in 1995. I do know that Ashmore replaced Blumenthal there when Blumenthal blew out, and that Phil was in Graham at that time.
The truth is way more important than any agenda, whether NTCC or ex. If accusations are made, they need to be backed up. Getting hysterical over challenges to the veracity of these allegations only makes it look like maybe they aren't so reliable and need to be firmed up.
So again--when was Phil in Okinawa?
I dont know if he ever pastored there but I do believe he use to travel back and forth when he was in korea in order to renew his visa status.
Fnp
The allegation was that Kinson was pastoring Moreno in Okinawa, when the alleged incident took place, now it appears he never pastored there...typical X'r mentality, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story!!! So far we have the word, 3rd party of a double murderer, and the highly questionable word of a former abusive NTCC ex pastor, with questionable motives regarding those he used to call Rev, bro, and Sir... You people crack me up..
The unsettled veracity of this incident in no way nullifies the multitudes of well-documented shenanigans by the NTCC leadership. But credibility is important, which is why these details should be investigated. False accusations are serious, and there appears to be a bit of schadenfreude on display with regard to Phil's alleged transgression. But love doesn't rejoice in iniquity, and I wouldn't be sorry to learn that he isn't guilty (of this particular thing, anyway; plenty of other guilt remains). It really isn't wise to be dogmatic about this when doubts persist. If no one at all can remember Phil pastoring in Okinawa, I'd say that's a red flag, at least.
SSssshadow said:
So again--when was Phil in Okinawa?
circa 95-96 possibly 94
W. L.
Vic said...
If no one at all can remember Phil pastoring in Okinawa, I'd say that's a red flag, at least.
Chief said...
No red flag at all Vic. I just got off the phone with MDR. He'll talk to anyone who is interested in calling him. MDR didn't just get this whole Kinson at a whore house deal second hand. He also talked to RWD and Olson about it and they confirmed it. Olson said he whet to fix the problem and RWD said the Kinson repented. MRD didn't care about Kinson being with a whore. That wasn't where he had a problem. His problem was with RWD and the fact that RWD promoted Kinson after Kinson had been caught coming out of a whore house.
For Kinson's sake, I was trying to give this one a break so I deliberately let it go further down on the front page but now I'm sticking it right back up top to clear up MDR's good name. Questioning MDR isn't the answer here. Everyone who is really interested in the truth should take the tough road like MDR did and question RWD, Olson and even Kinson!!!! They can be contacted. I don't doubt MDR for one single second and he has plenty of facts to substantiate his claim.
Chief
Chief said,
"Mr Shadow, give Olson a call. Mr Shadow, give RWD a call."
Shadow is trying to cause dissent and confusion. Yup!Sure he gives in to the inquisitive nature when pastors give unsubstantiated claims across the lectern.
W.L.
I'm in ntcc and if somebody would question my character and brought allegations as perverted as those, I would come here and refute them.
Specially if they were not true.
I don't doubt the reeds, just because they are not a part of ntcc, doesn't mean anything.
Why is it that people are so angry against the reeds? They've left so fine.
I've seen how they are treated now that they are out by those fellow laborers in servicemen's homes.
I'm ashamed to say the least!
If kinson is not guilty he needs to come here and say so.
The ball is on his court, period!
Now we're getting somewhere. Doubts need to be dispelled, and information is the way to do that. Please don't think I'm just trying to blow this off; if it's true, it's valuable additional evidence of NTCC's abject corruption. That's why it needs to be established as at least plausible. It's not plausible if Phil was never there. If he was there, someone should be able to verify when that was. If he wasn't there, RW would surely have mentioned that salient fact when confronted by Matt. But he didn't, so we deduce that Phil was there. Still, it would be good to have some confirmation. Someone must remember.
Chef said.."Kinson is guilty until proven innocent.."
This is what counts for sound reasoning in the X'r community? Really Chef? Rehashing MDR's account that he got "allegedly" secondhand from a double murderer likely doesn't meet the standard of proof requried for TMZ, or the NationalEnquirer to publish this story, but it gets top billing here? "MDR has no reason to lie," says you! other than his misplaced anger that others were promoted over him. He according to you didn't care that Kinson "allegedly" went to a whorehouse, he was just upset that he was promoted, that doesn't smell a little to you like a butt-kissing little weasal that didn't get the accolades, and promotions he felt he deserved and decided to take his marbles and play somewhere else? Give me a break, calling you to hear you rehash what "MDR SAYS" that double murderer told him is proof of nothing. As they say on ESPN, Cmon man! Shame on you for being part of these shenanigans!
Not in the shadows, but in the light
Now we're getting somewhere. Doubts need to be dispelled, and information is the way to do that.
Chief said...
Vic expects to be believed when he makes a statement, I expect to be believe when I make a statement, MDR expects to be believed as well and MDR has given me no reason to believe otherwise. MDR said he talked to RWD and Olson about the situation. If someone in the NTCC has any questions, they need to talk to RWD, Olson or Ashmore, or they can call MDR and talk to him one on one on the phone. I don't question Vic's integrity and I don't plan to question MDR's either.
We never had a voice in the NTCC. Well now we do. If MDR says that's the way it went, then it's up to the NTCC leadership to prove otherwise or simply deal with the fall-out because their minister went to a whore house and got caught.
Chief
MDR has way more credibility than the known liars inhabiting leadership positions in NTCC.
This is called serious ,DAMAGE CONTROL, does anyone not think that if Kinson or RWD was asked about this incident they would outright deny it. If they are capable of all that is being said on this blog, surely a lie is not a stretch for these people. Of that I am sure. As a FORMER NTCC member this stuff sickens me. And I stress the word MEMBER not preacher or preachers wife. Just a regular member, but no more.
Hello all,
Rev. Kinson got to Okinawa in February of 1994 (Rev. Alberty was the helper). He relieved Rev. Ashmore (Rev. Alberty was the helper), who relieved Rev. Blumenthal (who had Rev. Madrano as a helper).
I know this because I was in Okinawa from 1990 - 1994. I went to NTCC there from 1991 until 1994; then I went to Bible College.
I left for school a few days before Rev. Kinson got there. Rev. Ashmore had to leave quickly for some reason, so there was no changeover (but Rev. Alberty was there to hold down the fort for the few days until Rev. Kinson arrived).
Rev. Ashmore told us Rev. Kinson was coming, Rev. Alberty told us Rev. Kinson was coming, and Rev. Kinson shared with me later at a conference that he was a little miffed I has left a few days before he got there, as I was a great asset to the work.
So either Rev's Ashmore, Alberty, Kinson, and Shunk were/are all lying, or Rev. Kinson really did go to Okinawa to Pastor the work there.
Gregory
Thanks Gregory,
It is because you are willing to submit simple facts and accurate recollections in a concise courteous manner that I have respect for you as a friend and a man.
The Shadow
There! How much more evidence do we need? Does the Lord need to set a bush on fire? Does he need to part the Red Sea? Folks accuse us of conspiracies. Face it people, your Graham pastor has a less than stellar history but that is no big deal. Who has a stellar history? That is not the point.
First an organizational leadership preaches that you must live perfection. Then RWD stands up and says, "If any preacher gets caught in Adultery he'll never be a leader in this church" and then RWD turns right around and makes Kinson an Overseer and Graham pastor? Something is seriously wrong with that picture and that was what MDR was talking about.
The NTCC leadership made our lives hell on earth constantly putting us in a state of condemnation for the most minor of infractions which really weren't even infractions at all. Then they turn right around and make this dude an overseer?
A bunch of crooks and double standard demons.
Chief
Chief said:
MDR didn't stutter. MDR will come on here and set the record straight.
I hear crickets......chirp chirp chirp
The Shadow wrote...
It is because you are willing to submit simple facts and accurate recollections in a concise courteous manner that I have respect for you as a friend and a man.
Chief said...
That is great Shadow. I respect Gregory as well. And? This thread isn't about MDR or Gregory. It's about a crooked organization that drove a man mad and promoted another man who'd been caught coming from a whore house. The bigger picture of course is why this entire blog and why it exists. The NTCC leadership is guilty of committing this same kind of double standard garbage over and over and over. Get up behind a pulpit, rip everyone apart under the sound of their voice only for others to find out that the NTCC leadership is full of dead bones.
No one could even care about any of this stuff if the NTCC leadership hadn't placed so many heavy burdens on everyone's back? If there is one kind of person I can't stand not one single bit is an overly judgmental religious hypocrite like RWD, Kekel and Kinson and the rest of the NTCC leadership. The reason I say the rest of the NTCC leadership is because they've all heard about all this impropriety that's existed for years. They are just a guilty as the ones who've committed the sins because they empower them.
Chief
Anonymous said...
I hear crickets......chirp chirp chirp
Chief said...
I'm also hearing crickets. My phone hasn't rang yet. MDR is still waiting on a phone call.
Chief
I can also attest that my brother was in Okinawa in the early to mid 90's and told me that his first Pastor was Blumenthal, who was replaced by Ashmore, who was replace by Kinson.
TB
Chief said:
I'm on the phone with MDR right now and he's going to come on this blog to set the record straight.
later, Chief said:
I'm also hearing crickets. My phone hasn't rang yet. MDR is still waiting on a phone call.
Chief and MDR don't need a phone call from some anonymous loser who dares to question the veracity of the accusation. MDR just needs to man up and do what was promised by the blog moderator.
Put it in writing and sign your name Big Boy
Anonymous said,
Put it in writing and sign your name big boy.
DnA said,
He told you 1 time and you did not believe him if he told you again would you believe him?
Hello, everybody! I apologize that it has taken me so long to get back on here, but I’ve been kind of busy these days, you know, out riding quads and just having some good old plain fun with L. Travis and his family. Life is so sweet now that we, among many others, have escaped the brick-making fields of Pharaoh and his little weasel “punk face” mikey. Let me just say that if you are on this blog and still part of Ntcc, don’t let them know that you’re here because “dub-face” Pharaoh will increase you brick load and take away your straw!
Oh, by the way, the holidays are fast approaching, so if you’re planning to go and visit blood relations -- we call that family where I come from -- don’t tell RWD, (‘cause you know how he hates family) just do it and let the chips fall were they will. If he takes your license away from you, that will probably be the single best thing to happen to you this year.
Ok, here we go! The shadow, (me thinks the shadow is little JR Ashmore, but…) wants to know the time line of PAK being in Okinawa. PAK was there in 1994. He called me from Okinawa in ’94 when I was in Hawaii, because he had a church contact who was coming to Hawaii.
I assumed the pastorate of Ntcc-Okinawa in 1996 from JR Ashmore. He spent three separate years on the island. He pioneered the work in ‘91, turned it over to Blumenthal for a year, and came back for another year. Then he turned it over to PAK, and then came back for yet another year. He finally turned it over to yours truly in Feb. of 1996. Do da math.
More to come. mdr
There are some here on this blog that have questioned my truthfulness in the PAK account. Everything that I have shared concerning this account is accurate and the absolute truth according to what I was told by Roland Moreno, and later confirmed by RWD and JHO. I challenge PAK, RWD, or J H Olson to come on this blog and set the record straight if I am lying. If somebody said that about me, and it wasn’t true, I would want to clear my name.
Once again, I want to clear the air about what this is all about. This is not about PAK and his adultery. I couldn’t care less about what PAK did. The account as shared in a previous post by me is what Roland told me himself. He also told Rev. Espinoza who would later asked me if Roland had told me about PAK
This is about RWD lying and then changing the rules in the middle of the game. RWD said that if a minister committed adultery in his organization, that he would have his license taken away, that he would tell his wife, and that the man would never be a leader in his org. Well, that was my issue. I thought that RWD meant what he said because he said it many times over. When I approached him, he said that PAK had repented, once again not the issue. The issue was that PAK became a leader after committing acts that should have prevented him from holding a leadership position.
Now little mikey keeekel wants everybody to think that I picked up my marbles and went to play somewhere else because I was upset that I was not the one who was promoted. Wrong again!! You see, when somebody tells you that this is the way things are going to be, and that somebody is your leader, and then they do the exact opposite, we call that lying where I come from. Leaders should not be liars, and rules shouldn’t be changed to cover for somebody’s sins! I wasn’t looking for a leadership position. I was just looking to be treated with common Christian decency by a man I called pastor, and after 25 years a faithful service, couldn’t even get that.
Ummm Bye-Bye
mdr
Just stopping in to say I was here. =) Wishing you all a happy autumn! Hope you're doing well!
Anyone hear from Bro. Johnson lately?
side bar... has anyone seen the new NTCC web site.... they are getting with the times of course half of it is still "under construction"
Oh and to Bro Bellamy, so glad you and your wife are doing well. May God continue to Bless you. Church of God is some good people and a great organization.
SO there you have it folks if Kinson hadn't committed adultery then wouldn't Davis have told MDR that it wasn't true or even tried to say that Moreno was lying? No, he told Reed that Kinson had repented.
So, unless Reed is lying (which I know he isn't) then Davis admitted the adultery for Kinson and I just went over to the NTCC web site and read the by-laws that clearly state if a man commits adultery he will be stripped up his credentials with NTCC. So, case in point Kinson has no business being any kind of leader or even holding a ministers license with NTCC. I also noticed that there is a specific procedure on accusing someone of adultery maybe some NTCCers should go through the "official" process to accuse Kinson.
maybe some ntccers should go through the official process to accuse davis of adultery too.
Blinding beams of informative light have dispelled lingering doubts and brought new clarity to the sordid history of NTCC. We have at least three witnesses now--silence concerning this matter on the part of the org only gives additional validation to its truth.
As far as MDR's credibility is concerned, the very fact that he departed this corrupt regime is testament to his integrity. Those with consciences have difficulty remaining subject to "leadership" observed committing egregious acts of hypocrisy year after year. The fact that he refuses to keep his mouth shut and conceal their outrageous shenanigans also recommends his character.
Revelations like this ought to be shocking, but knowledge of NTCC's shady practices leaves one jaded. There is no predicting what will revealed next.
I will be glad to answer any legitimate questions about this matter.
mdr
Once again Anonymous said...
I hear crickets......chirp chirp chirp
Once again Chief said...
I still haven't got any phone calls yet. MDR, don't hold your breath. I was expecting the Shadow to give me a call to get MDRs phone number. Well it hasn't happened but the Shadow has found time to come on here to patronize Gregory. So MDR, where are thine accusers now? I guess now comes the waiting game. Surely someone will call me to get MDRs phone number so they can call and tell MDR that he didn't get his facts straight.
Of course lets be real here. MDR did get his fact straight and he did come on this blog to set the record STRAIGHT as I said. NOW!!! So now who's credibility is in question? I'd say the entire NTCC leadership's credibility is in question (but what is new) being that MDR called them out by name and asked them to come on this very blog to set the record straight if MDR is lying?
So now what about the NTCC by-laws? They say that if a man commits adultery he will be stripped up his credentials with NTCC. Oh I almost forgot; it's not adultery if you wear a condom.
The NTCC ain't no holiness organization. It's an organization full of holes. Now I wonder who will be man enough like MDR and go question RWD to his face?
I hear crickets.....chirp, chirp chirp!! And they're real loud.
Cha Chief, Cha Chief, Cha Chief Chief Chief
I initially posted this thread around 22 Sept. I got no beef with PAK. Neither does MDR. Frankly PAK is probably one of the nicer people I met in the NTCC. My intent was to bury this thread and I intend to do exactly that, but if people keep coming on here to question MDR's credibility, this thread can stay on TOP of the front page till the cow jumps over the moon. This incident happened a long time ago and everyone deserves a break.
I could care less who sleeps with who. Stop being a bunch of hypocrites while preaching down everyone's throat and stop trying to hold people to a higher standard than you hold yourselves you bunch of crooks up there in Graham. RWD, Olson, PAK, MCK, you guys are a bunch of hypocritical crooks. You have no business preaching judgment on anyone. Collectively you four have committed more sins since you've been NTCC ministers than any four people you've mercilessly blasted all put together.
You want to give PAK a break? Let this thread die and don't come on here to question MDR anymore or this thread will never get buried.
Chief
the shadow wrote:
mdr was upset that he wasn't promoted....smells like the little weasel that didn't get the accolades and promotions he felt he deserved and decided to take his marbles to play somewehere else.
Bro. reed didn't need no promotions or accolades, he got them from the people they reached for God, the churches they put together, pastored and their friends.
Apparently somebody is upset that the reeds were very much loved by those they came in contact with, because they were real and didn't act all high and mighty and spiritual around you!
The rumor that was going around when they left graham was that they left because they wanted a position. Even if this was the case, in the good ol'usa, we can expect promotions if we do a good job!
Whatever company you work for, if you do a good job you get promotions or raises,
It is the american way, so I don't know why this is an issue with the shadow.
Yeah, it's pretty normal to quit a skinflint boss who doesn't appreciate you no matter what you do, especially when you see cheeseating and brownnosing sycophants advanced with regularity. However, it is doubtful that was Matt's primary motive; he was likely far more disturbed by the corruption he witnessed firsthand in RW and his hypocritical cronies.
Anonymous said...
The rumor that was going around when they left graham was that they left because they wanted a position.
Chief said...
Typical NTCC smear campaign. Go figure. The NTCC crooked leadership didn't have a moral case against MDR so they had to dig up something else like a dog digs up trash. Nothing but pure garbage. These are the depths that the NTCC will stoop. They had nothing on me either so they tried to say I loved my house more than I loved GAWD.
The NTCC leadership is comprised of a bunch of smear doctor, character crushing creeps. And you wonder why we don't have a problem with airing a story like this one? The NTCC leadership has been assassinating the character of those who've left for decades. Well it's payback time. New Testament Christian Church, The Real Story. Stories you won't get from those crooks. They keep it hush, hush about a pastor getting caught coming out of a whore house and then promote the guy but then they want to go on a smear campaign time after time on the people who leave their crooked organization.
Do yourselves a favor people. Leave the NTCC, don't look back and don't worry about the trash that you know they will talk about you after you leave. Then, when the light fully illuminates in your mind, expose those guys for the crooks that they are. You are doing mankind a service when you do it. When a convict escapes prison in your area, the authorities warn the community. It's the right thing to do. When you escape the NTCC the right thing to do is warn others so they don't waste 5, 10, 20, or 30 years of their life going nowhere.
Chief
the shadow wrote:
"mdr was upset that he wasn't promoted....smells like the little weasel that didn't get the accolades and promotions he felt he deserved and decided to take his marbles to play somewehere else."
Why would anyone with a Godly conscience want to be advanced atop obvious corruption and double standards?
Still waiting on the phone calls to come in. Surely someone wants to question MDR? MDR will gladly take your phone calls. Going once, going twice.....
Chief
If I knocked on RWD or Kinsons door today to ask for the truth, do you think I would get the truth? Thats the question I would like to know the answer to. I predict the answer is no.
"The NTCC crooked leadership didn't have a moral case against MDR so they had to dig up something else like a dog digs up trash."
That's what they do. When RW ran me off, he didn't even ask why I was leaving, but later on, Donnie Ridgeway asked him why I left and was told that I differed with them on salvation doctrine. Huh? Well, I guess I do now, but then I was still in the fog and didn't really have that many doctrinal differences with them. But they didn't ask about my reasons for leaving, and I didn't tell them. RW just made that up.
I differ with them now on salvation doctrine in that I don't think one can be a hypocrite and a pharisee and a serial abuser and be saved. Back then I gave them the benefit of the doubt.
"If I knocked on RWD or Kinsons door today to ask for the truth, do you think I would get the truth?"
Truth has been fallen in the street over in Goshen for quite some time now. But you might detect a lying countenance (although they're pretty good about keeping a straight face).
NTCC has a history of promoting Homosexuals, WHAT????, this is new, are you saying that if the preacher is good at preaching or whatever they will overlook the fact that they are homosexual? I cannot believe some of the stuff I am reading here, this goes against what I have heard over the pulpit for some 13 years.
Yep, that's about the size of it. They had me fooled also. They don't practice what they preach. I'll guarantee that.
Chief
If the leadership of NTCC disputes Matt's account, they are free to accept Chief's invitation to respond. The ball remains in the NTCC court. As stated previously, their continued silence on the matter merely bolsters its authenticity.
There's your still small voice. Your message is deleted and this thread is once again back up to the top. Let me make this clear. I am absolutely convinced without reservation that PK committed what has been alleged. The only reason I've considered burying this thread is because I have more decency than any of you crooks in the NTCC. There is a third party involved in this whole mess who doesn't deserve it; PKs wife. Not only that, what PK did happened years and years ago and everyone deserves a break. That doesn't mean he didn't do it, it means that I'm not like you judgmental NTCC jerks as I don't get joy when I think about the effect this kind of info can have on PK and more importantly his wife.
That doesn't mean it's not true, it means it's something that happened long ago and I'm willing to let it die but you want to come on her and continue to question the integrity of MDR and you question my intentions and in the process you bring more heat on PK and his wife. If I were them, I'd want this thread to get buried and it will as soon as you crooks stop questioning MDR and or Me!!! Until which time that happens, you better call MDR and question him directly or go to RWD, Olson or Kinson and get the story directly from them.
You won't do that because you don't want the truth to be known, so all you do is come on here and attempt to discredit me and MDR. Well that tactic may work with a bunch of brainwashed NTCCers but it won't work here. PK did it, that is the bottom line and you know it. And for the tenth time, this ain't about PK, it's about RWD's continued double standards by promoting a board members son-in-law even after the dude was caught coming out of a whore house. It's called nepotism. It's called preferential treatment. Damage control, damage control is all you do but it ain't going to work on anyone with a sound mind and good sense which unfortunately many people in the NTCC don't have.
Chief
And the reason they don't have good sense and a sound mind is because they've been brainwashed and they don't realize it now but they will if they ever leave the NTCC.
Chief
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