About 7 years ago, I was on what was formerly known as the "Yahoo group". Basically it was an Internet based social group of ex-NTCCers who were sharing their experiences, (horror stories) while in the NTCC. Pam Morse (Norton) was on the group and she posted this letter which she wrote to the group. This letter came first hand from her. I was on the group forum the day she posted it. She stated that she regularly had sex in some form of fashion with R.W. Davis.
Could she have resisted? Sure but that is a whole lot easier said than done in a cult when the leaders of that cult and specifically Davis have such control of your life. Now, Diana Taylor said that Davis came to her place one time when her husband was not home and she flat out refused to let him enter. But you know what, it's not the same for each person and Diana Taylor was no doubt more mature and Diana Taylor's mother didn't raise her in the organization like the sick, sad, sorry mother or Pam Morris (Norton) namely Barbara Norton Warwick. Now Barbara Norton Warwick is a sick twisted woman.
Do I think that Davis used and abused his position in order to gain the confidence of a YOUNG woman who was a member of his church and the wife of a husband who worked for Davis and was also his church member? You better believe it. Do I think that Davis manipulated a much younger woman, namely Pam, and used strong powers of persuasion to gain unsolicited access to her blouse and dress/pants? You better believe it!!! Do I think that Davis the con artist double standard hypocrite used proven known cult tactics to brainwash his church to such a degree that he could have so much control over specifically (young impressionable women) that he could manipulate this particular situation in such a way so as to get Pam to "allow" him to have sex with her? No doubt.
Now for the record, Pam did not say that Davis had intercourse with her but in my book, touching breasts, hand in her pants, and fondling is hardly any different and in most cases certainly leads to intercourse. You can make a guy or girl get off with your hand or mouth, it doesn't take "private part to part" contact. I'm not saying that Pam got off either. Having said that, Davis wasn't just going by Pam's house "daily" to shoot the breeze, (the actually frequency unknown) so there was definitely some stuff going on. If Davis could manipulate your mind, he could manipulate your body also, so to what degree that Pam "allowed" Davis' advancements, we'll never know, but I do know that Davis wasn't going by there to play tiddlywinks and he knew what he was there for and so did Pam.
Was Pam a victim??? You best believe it. Rape victim? In a court of law? Possible, but somewhat of a stretch as to whether or not you'd ever get that one to stick. Does Pam feel she was raped? Most definitely. She said so. Is Davis a scum bag either way you look at it? If you don't think so you are an idiot. Rape, adultery, sex outside marriage.... Once I read this letter, Davis wouldn't have ever given me one ounce of spiritual advise and neither would Kekel or Olson for that matter. Kekel and Olson are just a guilty as Davis because they brushed it under the carpet and ran Pam off to shut her up. I wouldn't stay in the NTCC with this knowledge. Your an idiot if you do. Are you stupid enough to believe that Pam would have admitted to this if it never happened? She said she allowed it for crying out loud. Who would lie about that? What benefit would it be to Pam to ADMIT that she allowed a man 3 to 4 times her age to have sex with her if it never even happened???
Letter from Pam Morse:
He made sexual advances towards me when I was a teenager.
When I finally did speak up and began to tell people such as Olson, he said he
could not except it and it would be best for me to find another church to go
to. He also said I had to have 3 witnesses. Kekel did not do anything. When I
told my mother, one of her negative comments that she had made several years
ago was, "Out of all the pretty girls, why would he pick you Pam? To this
day we have no relationship because of this. She says that I'm lying and that
God will judge me for this.
Davis knew what he was doing. He came to my apartment when
Johnny was at work. (Johnny was employed by Davis and so he knew where he was
at all times.) He told me I was pretty and he wanted to make love to me. He had
his hands down my pants, on my breast etc and fondling my body to put it
bluntly. I allowed him to do this. I really did not believe he was sinning at
the time. I remember asking God "Why do you allow him to do this to me?
Then he gets up and preaches fire and brimstone and yet the very next day he
would do it all over again. I began to tell myself that it's ok. It's pastor.
This is how sick I was in my thinking. Thinking it was ok and he could not sin.
He would also give me money. Sometimes, by the end of the
week I had more money than my husband did. He would ask me where it came from
and I told him Rev. Davis gave it to me. I realize now that he was basically
paying me to shut my mouth. He did not love me like I thought he did, like a
daughter. He was using me to get in my pants and that's all it was.
103 comments:
Just saying asked...
But the question remains...did it really happen!?!
Chief responded...
I have no doubt. Here is another question. How is it that a church member had such close contact that she could just call up the prophet and tell on you like she and RWD were best friends? That don't make you wonder? Man please. That's even more evidence to suggest that they had something going on. You said she went home and "called" RWD. Who in the world was she to just call up RWD? I'll tell you who she was. The same girl that he'd been touching and feeling and she felt like he was approachable for obvious reasons.
Not only that, there is no logical explanation that she would admit to "allowing" Davis to touch all over her unless it happened. The dude was three to four times her age. Just because she started a mess with you doesn't mean she was lying. Not only that, a former preacher who goes by Brother D. formerly Double D, said that Davis had been found out to have committed adultery with WOMEN in the Carondolet church and he actually had to leave town because it got so ugly and Brother D was in the church during the whole mess. Additionally, Diana Taylor said that Davis came to her house unannounced to come in and talk to her about nothing when her husband was known by Davis to be gone to work and it was clear he was up to something and she didn't let him in and told him to leave because her husband was not home. Well that's enough testimonies for me. Davis was a double standard slut, plain and simple. Why else would he have gone to Diana's house when he knew her husband was at work? Just because he felt like talking to one of the sisters in private which incidentally he constantly preached against? A woman can tell when a dude wants her and I know Diana because I lived with her and her husband in a serviceman's home for almost 2 years and if she told me that is what she felt Davis was up to then I believe it because I know her and a woman knows. Davis just misread her and she told him to leave. In the NTCC there is NO reason for a pastor say no less the HEAD of the church of all things to just show up a married woman's house when he knew her husband was at work. There is no justifiable reason for that whatsoever. Like I said, Davis just misread Diana and she shut him down but Pam didn't and she admitted to it. That was Davis' m.o.
Chief
I just talked to my wife about the NTCC which doesn't happen very often because she can't stand the NTCC and for the most part, she'd rather not talk about it.
Well my wife thought that Tanya was the biological daughter of BOTH RWD and Verna because our pastor's wife, sister Hunt told my wife so and my wife remembers that clearly. She just said that sister Hunt told her that all you have to do is look at Tanya and Verna's eyes and you can tell clearly. Well why does sister Hunt believe that, when we have clearly seen Tanya's adoption certificate plain as day which can be easily found on the Internet and the last time I checked the Shunks have it posted on their blog? Tanya was born to a Philippine woman who's name was I believe Raynolds. Verna didn't give birth to Tanya, some Philippine lady did and Davis was right there at the delivery and birth because Davis said so in front of me, my wife and everybody else in conference.
So why did an NTCC pastors wife, namely R. Hunt try to convince my wife that Tanya is Verna's biological daughter when we have absolute proof that she is NOT!!! Did someone lie to sister Hunt in an attempt to perpetrate deception or was there something to cover up? And why was RWD there in the delivery tent for the birth of a girl who he said was HIS daughter in conference, only to adopt her later from a Philippine women? Why would you adopt your own biological daughter and be there to watch her come out from between her mother's legs when her mother wasn't your wife? My wife and I are certain that what Davis said in conference gave not only us but everyone else listening the clear impression that Tanya is Davis' biological daughter. My wife even talked to Tanya about her own birth that day in conference and Tanya said she was born a blue baby which corespondents with what Davis testified.
Davis' life is full of scandal. From the fake Doctorate degree, to him leaving a church where he was accused of Adultery by more than one woman and threatened by one of their husbands, to pastors and pastors wives definitively believing and telling their church members that Tanya is Verna's biological daughter when clearly she is not. Man the NTCC is a fake and a fraud and so was RWD.
Chief said..."How is it that a church member had such close contact that she could just call up the prophet and tell on you like she and RWD were best friends? That don't make you wonder?"
Point well taken chief! That said, I believe that Pam was a very willing participant. You can't rape the willing! Was it right? Of course not, but she could have refused him if she was a virtuous woman and then it would have been rape on Davis' part.
I personally know a woman, of whom I will not reveal for privacy sake, that Davis visited at 8:00 a.m. in morning after that her husband had gone to work. When she heard that it was Davis at the door she told him that her husband had gone to work and proceeded to inquire of his visit at that hour. Davis' reply was that he "just wanted to check on her to see if she was alright!" What a scum bag!!
My question is, where was Verna during all of these types of "house calls?"
Just Sayin
Back in St. Louis RW hadn't isolated himself to the degree he later did...it was not uncommon for people to call him; pretty much everyone had his number. People used to come by his house in Webster Groves, too; I guess he took care of that problem in Graham by living behind locked gates.
Just Sayin wrote...
Point well taken chief! That said, I believe that Pam was a very willing participant. You can't rape the willing!
Chief said...
It may seem like I'm flipping the script but I'm actually not but I don't think Pam would necessarily qualify as a willing participant either for many reasons.
She was in a cult which of course exercised extremely control over everyone but to a greater extent the women without doubt. Pam was brought up in the church by a sick NTCC mother who made that occurrence of control in her life even worse. To Pam, no doubt Davis was almost like a God and Davis took full advantage of the relationship.
Davis exercised a level of mind control over women and in this case specifically Pam that's rare to see elsewhere. Pam indicated in her letter that she even questioned God as to why God would allow it to happen to her. She went to her own mother for crying out loud about Davis' misconduct. She went to Olson and she said Kekel did nothing about it. Olson told her to find a new church. Respectfully and I highly appreciate your comment, that's not exactly a willing participant but rather someone who did allow it but didn't quite know how to deal with the problem so under the circumstances, she did the best she could.
Where was she going to go? She had no job, no real education I'm quite sure. No car, not marketable skills. Good grief, the girl was essentially trapped quite literally. And see this is the part that I don't think my good buddy Don has understood about my take on this series of incidents. I understand the dynamics surrounding this kind of abuse in the NTCC. Don is actually right from a cult standpoint with his way of thinking. She may have given in but in the real world there is no way Davis would have had that degree of control over her. Yes this kind of thing can happen in the real world but its probably more often in those cases happening by the daughter of mother who's being pimped or a drug addict or a straight deranged criminal who when he gets caught is absolutely put behind bars for life.
It's a whole different dynamic in a church where the church leader is in a position of authority and trust and abuses that trust and authority to gain access to in this case Pam's private parts. Had Pam gone to the police, Davis may very well have got charge but a conviction under the circumstance could have been another story.
If Pam was under 17 and she said Davis had intercourse with her, and she was able to prove it, then Davis would have been done whether she allowed it or not according to Missouri law. Well the fact is at the time, Pam didn't take that approach and I don't know what her age was at the time and even if she though about taking that approach I totally understand whey she didn't.
What support group did she have, NONE!!! Who did her deranged husband work for, the dog gone perpetrator!!! And what was her husband going to do if she ratted out Davis to the police?? Be jobless? Where were they going to get money? Where were they going to live, get food? All their money came from Davis. Just Sayin, Davis had that girl trapped again quite literately. She was in quite a pickle no matter how you look at it so it's no wonder she convinced herself at least temporarily that it was ok.
But that fact that she went to Olson and her mother, shows that through it all, she didn't want it to continue and those scum bags did nothing about it and she said neither did Kekel.
Continued below...
So the whole thing is kind of hard to definitively put a name on as rape or molestation but I do understand why people could consider it either or both. To me there should be another name for this type of sexual deviance but that's just me. And you know what, I am a father of a wonderful boy. If someone like Davis tried that on my boy, and I caught the dude; well you go figure the rest. It wouldn't be pretty. You just turned me into the meanest, no mercy having sucker on earth and I'm the wrong guy to put in that position.
Pam had three totally horrible people at the very center of her life. Can you imagine being in that position? My goodness!!! Dude, I can't even imagine that. Davis is a sorry piece of trash and I feel bad that Pam had to be married to another scum bag like Johnny Jordan, have a mother like useless shit bag Warwick Norton, and deal with a dirt bag like Davis. No matter what we name it, Pam was a straight up victim without doubt. We are talking about psychological abuse and manipulation of maybe the worst sort. Davis was a scum bag and the world is a better place without him.
Chief
I'm thinking hell isn't good enough for these people.
Dazed and confused said...
What you might not understand is that Pam probably blamed herself for years. No doubt she has been through enough.
Chief said...
Hey Dazed and confused, if you can, make sure you read my last few messages posted and read them with an open mind please. I've read and internalized everything everyone has written WITH AN OPEN MIND. Not clouded by the semantics of Sex vs Rape. See, this is good stuff. This is what I was hoping for. Open dialogue. I love what you wrote Dazed and confused. I also love Led Zeppelin. I love your passion because I can feel it in your statements and it doesn't FEEL personal. I'm with you on everything you wrote. Not much different than what I wrote especially in my last few messages. I want open dialogue and everyone's views as long as they don't preach at me like I'm in church saying garbage like I need to get saved.
I didn't jump on Just Sayin. I thought I came across pretty cool with a decent respectful response. Was I respectful to you Just Sayin?
I respect how Don feels and how you feel and heck, because you are anonymous you may be Don. I just ain't calling it rape and what is wrong with that? Barbara Warwick Norton is a slime ball piece of crap. Pam was raised in some horrible conditions. I get all that and all that contributed to her as I've quoted before "allowing" things to happen. I'm not blaming her but she said she did allow it and whether anyone likes it or not, in court, that would make her case not as strong. For certain and I'm being real. Is there anything wrong with being real? Hell no and I'll make no apologies for it. I'm don't want to squash debate. To be effective, these blogs need debate.
So I'm not calling it rape and it's just that simple and I'm not fake and I'm not going to be fake. I've called Davis every name in the book as much as anyone. I've typed probably millions of words on this blog alone in strong opposition to the NTCC and Davis. So what? If I don't call him a rapist in the Pam Norton case then I'm supposed to be dead wrong and run around like a little puppy with his tail between his legs apologizing to people in opposition to my views? Ain't happening.
I respect everyone's views whether I agree with them or not, (other than the preaching at me) but that doesn't mean I have to agree and I'm not an insecure man and I won't agree if I don't agree.
Like I said, read my last long winded statements and you and I basically said the exact same thing.
A blog needs open dialogue. There is very little that I will delete. I delete all that preaching garbage because this blog is not someone's church and no one is going to make me sit through their service on this blog. Kinson the creep said in church one time: "What I like most about preaching is that what I say from behind a pulpit, people have to listen to and they can't talk back".
Well that's great Phil you control freak jerk but guess what, I can talk back on this blog and you can't preach to me here because I'll delete it. This blog will not be turned into the church of some control freak like Phil Kinson.
Anyone can come on here and call what Davis did to Pam whatever they want and I simply don't have to agree if I don't want to. What I don't agree with nor will I, is why someone would try and MAKE me agree and get upset with me when I don't? I don't expect anyone to agree with my views. I know in many cases people will agree with me but it's not a case of "I require it or else"?
The fact is, when it comes to testimonies like the ones from Julie or Pam, people will disagree and people will have different views and those views are going to be allowed. They are allowed in court. The defense will absolutely be able to present his or her case and so will the prosecutor and it might hurt the accusers feelings but thats a fair trial and I'm not interested in a trial being any other way and I'm not interested in this blog being any other way.
So what I'm saying is that if you think Davis is a rapist, present your case and if you think he's not, present your case and I hope that Pam and or Julie doesn't get hurt in the process, but simply for the sake of protecting their feelings, I'm not going to make this a one sided case.
I want people to disagree with me. Again, I want people do DISAGREE with me. If that doesn't happen this blog is almost useless and it will not accomplish is mission. So please people, disagree with me all you want. I welcome it. Just don't expect me to agree back and that is as fair as it gets.
Dazed and Confused said..." If this is how you talk about your good friends anonymously behind their back. You said you haven't talked to her since that day and yet you call her a good friend? "
Woe Nelly! First of all I don't hate Pam!
Secondly, I do hold her responsible because she wasn't a 16 yr old girl when she was being a devious, conniving, little trouble maker. That whole situation wouldn't have happened if your poor little victim wasn't being devious! So go smoke some medical marijuana and chill out! No, don't do that because that's probably why you're dazed and confused!
Third, I understand all that "Pam is a victim" stuff, but just because somebody was a victim of such a cruel upbringing doesn't give them a free pass to do anything that they want to do.
Growing up as child I too was a victim of a lot of different kinds of abuse, to include sexual abuse, but that doesn't give me or anybody else for that matter, a blanket pass to be a conniving bastard!
Just sayin
Dazed and Confused, I should have clarified my statement about not talking to that girl again. I never talked to her again during my time spent in Bible school. Once we got out in the ministry, Her and her husband became part of our fellowship group and we then became good friends.
So, there you have it, not go smoke some medical marijuana and chill Bill!
Just sayin
..."but please don't begrudge me if I want to protect people like Julie and Pam from having to relive this stuff over and over again."
If Pam didn't want to relive this over and over again as you put it DnA, then she shouldn't have went public with it, especially on a blog!
Just keepin' it real
Just sayin said...
That whole situation wouldn't have happened if your poor little victim wasn't being devious!
Chief said...
It's probably good for you it did happen. Might have been one more thorn in the side that got you to see the NTCC for what it is and get you to leave. Just a guess, I wouldn't know. Having said that, I am convinced that Pam was a victim no matter what anyone calls her encounter with Davis and it's clear you understand that also. I'm not trying to assassinate Pam however I also never experienced what you did with her. I'm sure her calling Davis didn't make your life at that time too pleasant.
So at that time, you became the victim of Davis and Pam. And if pastor Mayers left the NTCC today and said he was a victim, that doesn't change the fact that I was a victim of him and that fact will always exist. So I get you Just Sayin. See, I read what people write and I try to understand but I also understand the point that Dazed and Confused was making.
I'm not trying to be a politician but I really do understand. I understand you both. It's just that your perspectives are both different and my perspective and Don's perspective are different also. He was the victim of sexual abuse and I wasn't so our perspectives are different.
Pam was a victim though and I believe we all understand that. We were all victims. And guess what, to one degree or another someone else was the victim of everyone of us when we were in the NTCC, and I'm certain of that. And here is where I'm at with this blog. I'm no longer part of the NTCC and in that regard, no longer part of the problem and as far as I know, neither is Pam. People like Ashmore and Denis and Barnes are a lot different.
They've left one controlling cult from what I can tell, only to start another. I'm glad they are out of the NTCC but you wouldn't see me step foot in any of their churches. In the grand scheme, they are still part of the problem.
Just FYI for all the NTCC'ers that peek at this blog. While you all are praying for all the lost people in this world and or putting people on guilt trips for not coming to church with you I'll be at the Avengers this weekend chilling out with a pepsi and a huge tub of popcorn extra butter! I might even have a hot dog with mustard and relish.
You all enjoy your hours of mandatory praying, soul harassing, church functions (that make Kekel richer by the day), because after the movie I might just take a nap and chill out.
Yeah, I'm a sinner I know. Unfortunately, you are too, you just don't get to enjoy anything like I do. HA HA HA HA... HO HO HO HO... HE HE HE HE...
"While you are praying for all the lost people in this world..."
Anon, you must have stopped going in the late 90s early 00s. Ntccers are going to be there right beside you!!!
Just keepin it real said...
If Pam didn't want to relive this over and over again as you put it DnA, then she shouldn't have went public with it, especially on a blog!
Chief said...
She didn't go public with it. She posted it on the Yahoo group and that wasn't exactly public. See Bro I am fair. The fact is I don't see Pam as an angel but I do see her as a victim. The reason it went public here is because I was on Don's blog the other day and I posted a message and inadvertently I refereed to her encounter with Davis as sex and my good buddy Don got bent. He is my good buddy for years now. He still is my good buddy but buddy or no buddy he wants to squash me on this one and I insist that I be heard and where this subject is concerned neither one of us can hear each other on the phone because all we wind up doing is raising our voices because we so strongly disagree.
So here I have to hear Don and then I'm guaranteed a chance to speak and he has to hear me and then he is guaranteed a chance to speak because neither one of us can get a word in edgewise when we talk about this subject on the phone. LOL. That's why I went public with this one here on this blog and also because I knew it would get a lot of attention which is what I was hoping for and also bring out some more info which is exactly what it did.
Don, whether you see it or not, the only difference between you and me is that you "seem" to continue to insist you are right and I insist that either one of use could be right but neither one of use will ever know because, NEITHER ONE OF US WAS THERE. And here is where we are also different. You absolutely WANT to believe she was raped and you WANT to trust her and you seem to believe she is some kind of angel and the NTCC taught me not to believe that about anyone to include Pam and Julie.
So I'm not trying to protect them. They are old enough to protect themselves. Both their stories are suspect and I believe there was sexual contact and I believe there was abuse and I believe they are victims but to what degree they gave in WE will never know. There you go. Your turn.
I know Pam and believe the incidences occurred primarily as she described, however I agree with Chief that it was consensual, and because she was married doesn't qualify under the Statutory rape clause, and certainly if one is going to quote Missouri state law, one should go back to whatever the statute was in the mid early to mid 1980s, not 2014. One thing I commented on, on DNA's / TMZ blog that they never posted and everyone seems to miss, is that in her own statement she acknowledges accepting money after these encounters, often times more then her husband was earning, which in most societies makes her not just a participant, but whether she realized it or not a prostitute. Now that should really send Don into orbit, prepare for the rebuttal blitz...everyone duck.
Now see this is what I'm talking about. I'm seeing far different sides and views concerning this story. And I'm not saying anyone is categorically right or wrong. I see Don's side, I see Just Sayin's side and Dazed and Confused's side. I understand MDR. And I see Anon's side who posted the last message. And hey Anon, for what it's worth, I don't "actually" agree that it was consensual. I think it was psychological cult control mind manipulation and abuse of authority by someone in a position of power. Davis flat out took advantage of his position and the control he had over Pam which was considerable.
I just prefer to use different verbiage for what I consider to be a variety of very sound reasons. Don believes differently and I respect that and I understand why. Thanks for the input.
"While you are praying for all the lost people in this world..."
Anon, you must have stopped going in the late 90s early 00s. Ntccers are going to be there right beside you!!!
Wait, they can go to movies now? Where do they find the time? What else have they abandoned? This is blowing my mind!
Just to be clear, in 1974, October, RW was accused of adultery by 3 women at Carondelet. Gaylord advised RW to go away for awhile. CO Sensabaugh, who had been groomed by RW, proclaimed, "Moses is dead.. Now let us go on.." Parson brought a gun to RWs house, rather parsonage next to Carondelet Church. Bottom line all these new students coming into got miserable St Louis had to face all this garbage. We just assumed it was persecution for holiness. We had no clue about "Elmer Gantry" syndrome and scenario in play.
I was there prior to Johnny and Pam's marriage, when Johnny was called before the college panel, for feeling up a young lady, Pam. RW made such a scene about it. Asking us teachers what we should do about this horrible incursion. Now I wonder what RW was up to. He always taught everyone in no uncertain terms, that he was beyond being corrected. He jacked up any who ever disputed anything he did. He also felt he was the head of all women, the covering, under God. What a sociopath.
"Wait, they can go to movies now? Where do they find the time? What else have they abandoned? This is blowing my mind!"
anonymous wrote:
reminds me of the austin powers movie! remeber when dr. evil said " let's hold the world hostage for 1 million dollars." hahaha. God changed his mind on holiness a long time ago my friend!
Chief previously this on this thread...
Not only that, a former preacher who goes by Brother D. formerly Double D, said that Davis had been found out to have committed adultery with WOMEN in the Carondolet church and he actually had to leave town because it got so ugly and Brother D was in the church during the whole mess.
Brother D. later wrote...
Just to be clear, in 1974, October, RW was accused of adultery by 3 women at Carondelet. Gaylord advised RW to go away for awhile. CO Sensabaugh, who had been groomed by RW, proclaimed, "Moses is dead.. Now let us go on.." Parson brought a gun to RWs house, rather parsonage next to Carondelet Church. Bottom line all these new students coming into got miserable St Louis had to face all this garbage.
Chief responded....
See, for all those who might wonder, my memory is not too bad. Pretty much on target with this one. Brother D. wrote this at least 7 years ago for the first time on FACTNet and then later on this blog. Davis has a history of these type allegations. When there is smoke, there is fire.
There is no telling how many women in the church he had sex with during it tenure as a minister and or pastor. Speculation of course but based on eye witness testimonies of such allegations. Why would someone bring a gun to RWD's house when he'd been accused of Adultery? Why did Gaylord tell him to leave town if there wasn't a "serious" problem. You don't leave town for no reason. No doubt his life was being threatened by a really mad husband of a seriously guilty wife. You are my pastor and I trusted you and you screwed my wife??? Now I'm going to get my gun. Would it be safe to say that was about the size of it? I'd think so. Once again, I'm going off what Brother D. witnessed, no more no less. All I'm doing is taking the facts and putting together the pieces of the puzzle which seems like an easy puzzle to put together.
Davis was a preaching hypocrite tramp. Just that simple. If you are a woman in the NTCC you should really try to leave because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and Kekel has been accused of similar activities. Just look at a few threads back.
http://truestoriesoflifeinthentcc.blogspot.com/2014/05/kekel-has-history-of-inappropriate.html
NTCC husbands, if you love your wives, get them out of that church and whatever you do don't let them in Kekel's house to clean it unless you are certain you are laying it down real good. I mean, I wouldn't let my wife in his house anyway but if you are not handling your business at home, Kekel is more than willing to handle it at his house based on the testimonies of a couple NTCC women. He is certainly going to try to touch their butts and the only reason you would try that is to see what happens. Why else would you touch a womans butt? Is there something I'm missing? Is it normal just to touch a woman's butt when she comes to clean your house when she is not your wife? Is it normal to touch the butt of another mans wife when she comes to clean your house? I mean, I'm just asking? Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe butt touching is standard procedure for a NTCC holiness preacher. Should we all be touching butts? Let the butt touching begin.
So you feel up a young girl and you are rewarded by RWD to have the privilege to marry her. Wow. Cult 101. That's some serious sick business. Then you put the guy to work and go get it on with his wife when he is at work. Boy that's a tangled web. Are there any NTCC people reading this? Listen to all these testimonies.
In fact, here NTCC husbands, let me make it easy for you and help you out a bit. If your wife has clicked on the thread, "Kekel has a history of inappropriate behavior" and she's read the testimonies? And she is still determined to go clean Kekel's house?
http://truestoriesoflifeinthentcc.blogspot.com/2014/05/kekel-has-history-of-inappropriate.html
Don't waist your wifes time having her go to clean Kekel's house. Just invite Kekel over to your house and leave your wife alone with Kekel. That way she can get what she's after and avoid all that cleaning. In fact, if you ask Kekel, he might clean your house, if you leave for long enough. Just read the testimonies. You decide. My wife wouldn't step foot in that creep's house. Also, if your wife always wants to go back and clean Kekel's house and Kekel always wants her back? You might want to sneak around to spy on her and Kekel if you even care. You'll be sure to hear her getting pounded by big Mike. Then you can decide if you want to keep her or not.
Personally I'd get rid of her but that's just me. If she constantly wants to go clean Kekels house, I probably wouldn't even spy. I'd just get rid of her and let her find someone else to cheat on. I read these testimonies over and over. It's a clear pattern. Kekel is going to try your wife. There is almost no doubt from what those sisters and their husbands wrote.
So if she really wants to clean Kekels house all the time, Dude, it ain't rocket science. Your wife is getting smashed and you are a dummy and you are paying Kekel to smash your wife.
Now if your wife is always wanting to go clean Kekels house and she never gives you any? DUDE!!!! She is getting SMASHED HARD. You don't have what it takes so you better find another wife and get some Viagra before you do or the second one is going to find another Kekel, a real man who knows how to handle his business and the next guy's business also. Kekel has the big "you know what" and Kekel has the money and he has your money. Kekel is "THE MAN".
Kekel is the man, Go Mike, Go Mike, Go Mike, Get your house cleaned, get your house cleaned, get your house cleaned, Go Miiike, Go Miike, get your house cleaned, get your house cleaned.
Oh, this is Chief. I wrote the last message. Just trying to get these guys to think. Like I said, it ain't rocket science.
The UN Secretary-General's Bulletin on Protection from sexual exploitation and abuse reads: "The term "sexual abuse" means the actual or threatened physical intrusion of a sexual nature, whether by force or under unequal or coersive conditon."
Chief we can find common ground and agree that this is what Pam was subjected to. I still feel it's rape but in finding common ground I will call it sexual abuse going forward. I believe we both agree that no matter if one calls it rape or sexual abuse the outcome is the same-total devastation to the victim.
Chief said..."Don't waist your wifes time having her go to clean Kekel's house."
I don't understand why anybody but Tanya Kekel should clean her house. If her House is dirty then she should clean it. If she can't handle that then it's clear to me that she should be in a smaller home!
Tom Wright's daughter used to make her way over to clean the Kekel's house quite often. And there were suspicions that Kekel was banging her too. From what I understand, she made her rounds up there in Graham.
Oh yeah. Wrights daughter was getting banged. If she was going there often, Kekel was givin it to her. You all need to wake up.
I like big butts and I cannot lie!
Rdub says you're fat, but I can down with that
Ladies,ladies, come on and scrub my floors
And fold my underwear! Tanya has joy in allowing different woman to fold her husbands underwear! They're a bunch of sick perverts people!
Wake up and smell the underwear!
So I'm unclear,
How did RWD maintain a holiness reputation? How did "Moses" not get kicked out? Was it set up so he could just take his marbles and go home?
Tanya Kekel is just like her daddy! She loves to play games with the brethren up there in Graham. It's all a sick game folks! She's got Infausto on a leash, panting at her feet like a little puppy. And let's not forget Eli Gasang (Mr. Love-lust.) He's disgusting to watch around beautiful women...He barely can contain himself. I used to observe him during his "lust fits" and the guy couldn't hardly control his eyes. And when he gets around Tanya, "the game player" he's practically salivating on himself!
That place out there in Graham WA is a weirddddd place!
Just Sayin'
RWD often boasted that "he was there first and will be there when your gone." Absolute power corrupts absolutely! Davis set that thing up from the get go to protect his position. He would NEVER come under the scrutiny of his own by-laws! New Testament Christian Churches of America Inc is a "Mob Squad." full of "Corrupt Gangsters!" Davis was the "Godfather" and now his son-in-law who used to be his "hit-man" is now the new "Godfather!"
So this must be why all the threads of real estate and tithing. If holiness is gone than what else is there to harp on?
Really what they've done is just gotten all the clutter out of the way so we can focus on their corruption concerning sexual misconduct/real estate holdings/money grubbing. Now those are some juicy topics!
What is the cultish hold over them if all the holiness is gone though? I guess that's what I can't figure out.
Sir-mikes-alot said...
I like big butts and I cannot lie!
Chief wrote....
Hahahaha. You other brothers cannot deny. Baby got back. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Baby got back. It's so sick it funny. So Wright's daughter was constantly going to Mike's house also??? Did she have a big butt? Did Wright's baby have back??? See it's sick but it's reality. Based on all the testimonies made by women who've went to clean Kekels house who said Kekel touched their butts??
Here is part of one of the testimonies right her people:
"He hit my butt on purpose. I think he was testing to see what he could get away with before he tried more".
And there are more testimonies where that came from. So here is the way I see it. If you go to clean Kekel's house he is going to try you so if you keep going, like Wrights daughter??? What do you think??? I don't know for certain of course but I know what I think. In each testimony where Kekel tried the wife, if she didn't go along with it, he got mad at her and or told her to leave. and or got mad at her husband. READ THE TESTIMONIES!!! I'm not making it up. So Wright's daughter kept happily going to clean Kekel's house?? And Kekel didn't get mad at her?? Then according to my logic, (which could be wrong) (but probably is not) Wright's daughter probably went along with it and Kekel had her bent over from the minute she walked through the door. And she liked it so much she kept going back. No uncommon. Kekel may be a double standard hypocrite but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to smash. I'd venture to say that any girl who's spend an considerable time at Kekel's house at one point or another has got smashed.
Come on!!! Read the testimonies. It was the same M.O. every time. That stuff don't just stop. Kekel is a serial butt toucher. He uses the butt touching method to test the waters to see just how much farther he can go. And when a woman questions him or goes to Olson, they write it off as a simple mistake and say have a nice day.
What one of these women needs to do is call the police and press charges against him for sexual assault or whatever law governs that kind of conduct. It might fly if she steadily affirms that he really slapped her butt! You can't just slap a woman on the butt. These NTCC guys been getting away with so much for so long that they truly believe they are above the law.
Like I said, if your wife always wants to go clean Kekel's house, she's getting smashed and it's just that simple. There is no telling how many different women Kekel has had sex with in his house. RWD used to creep to other women's houses. Kekel brings them to his. Different approach same outcome.
It's quite out there!
It gets like that. Basically if another thread isn't started, it would stay like that forever. That's the nature of this blogging business. You have to be creative and it gets tiresome especially when you know that some wife or daughter is going to clean Kekel's house today. The NTCC is not going anywhere. They have quite effectively figured out how to avoid the law and the IRS and how to screw women and convince them to allow it.
It don't take a whole lot of convincing for some. Some of these women are quite happy to be convinced. One NTCC pastor and his wife said there was a waiting list of women in line to go clean Kekel's house. That is absolutely amazing to me but thats what happens when you get frustrated and your husband is broke and not handling his business. That's where Sir-Mikes-Alot comes in.
He likes big butts and he cannot lie you other brothers cannot deny. I'm starting to admire old Mike. Have some horny sister come to clean your house and fold your underwear. Your wife goes shopping like she does all the time, botta boom, botta bing. Smash. NEXT; botta boom, botta bing all over again.
And the ones who don't want it and you read wrong, tell them to finish folding your drawers and scram after you slap their butt. Go ahead Pimpin!!! Mike is my hero. Who is the man, who does the wife of his fellow man, da-da, SHAFT!!! Da-da, da. Man, Mike has got it going on. Go ahead ladies, line up. Mike is waiting. His toilet needs scrubbing too. Scrub under dem nuts while you are at it. They need some cleanin.
Why am I being so crass and vulgar?? Because these women need a wake up call. They are allowing themselves to be treated like straight up hoes. Women, you are better off in a shelter and working at McDonald's just to save enough money for a car of your own.
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GO CLEAN ANOTHER MANS HOUSE WHO HAS A WIFE??? DON'T YOU HAVE ANY SELF RESPECT LEFT???!!! HAS THE NTCC DEVALUED YOU SO MUCH THAT YOU'VE LOST ALL RESPECT FOR YOURSELF?
That's why I'm being vulgar. If these women and their husbands are going to allow them to be treated like hoes then heck, that's what they've become. So go bend over for Mike the man and let him slap you on your butt. Lot of women like to get slapped on the butt. And the ones who don't, well then take Mike's butt to court and get a little respect for yourself because at this point, I got more respect for Mike. I've never seen anything like it.
If you've made it this far though my message Sisters, then there is hope for you. READ PROVERBS 31, get some respect for yourself or just go clean Mikes underwear and come scrub mine when you're finished. There's some skid marks that need a little Shout.
You sisters need to stand up to your husbands and them sorry piece of crap men in the NTCC. Let all them sorry men start screwing each other instead of you women and just maybe they'll wake up.
There is no way in hell I'm going to clean Kekel's house while his sorry spoiled wife stands there and gives me orders. Some NTCC husband with some balls needs to go to Kekel's house and slap Tanya on the butt and then just deny it like Kekel does. Let Kekel slap my wife on the butt and see what happens. I'll bring a (two by four) over to Kekels house and bust Tanya straight in her ass with it and then give old sorry Verna a Schmack with it when I'm finished with Tanya.
ROTFLMAO!
Just had a thought. Back in the day Kekel or someone would make a veiled reference to these blogs from the pulpit and try to discredit or dismiss the criticism. Wonder what that would look with this topic?
EG
Mike's like " who goin' check me?"
Sister Brenda said...
Mike's like " who goin' check me?"
Exactly Sister. And that's the problem up there in Graham and for that matter quite a few churches nation wide. There is no one to check any of them and they know it because they've been getting away with their dirt for decades without any involvement from the law.
I'm really glad you made that comment Sister. Not a lot of women sticking up not only for themselves but sticking up to the NTCC leadership. I love it. I'd love to hear of a Sister say to Kekel the creep,
(YOU JUST SLAPPED MY BUTT!!!!)
Kekel, "No I didn't, it was a mistake".
Sister, "NO IT WASN'T and in about 15 minutes the police will be here to put you in hand cuffs because I'm pressing charges".
I'd love nothing more than to see NTCC women decide they've had enough and stand up for themselves against these oppressive NTCC men. Sisters, they've got you all tricked. Being a good wife and being submissive doesn't make you a door mat with no brain. Like I always say, READ Proverbs 31. That women in Proverbs 31 had a great degree of responsibility and Independence. She worked, traded with the merchants, and the Bible said she was a virtuous woman!!!!!!!! She wasn't just laying at home getting laid by her sorry husband, taking orders and getting verbally and psychologically abused by some NTCC dick head control freak chauvinist pig like Mike Kekel, Stanley Mayers and RW Davis.
I remembers Mayers preaching in church about giving his wife a "submission check" at 0230am. He said he would get her up out of bed just to fix him a cup of coffee at 0230am just to make sure she was being submissive. I'm telling you people, he preached that in church and both me and my wife remember it clearly. What kind of nonsense is that?
If any sorry NTCC husband tries that on any of you sisters, you need to tell that sorry prick, go fix his own damn cup of coffee and the next time he tries that mess you are going to wake his sorry butt up in the middle of the night every night for a month!!!! And then if he gets violent, you need to call the police and get his sorry, control freak, chauvinistic, narcissistic butt locked up in jail and while he is there, go apply for a state firearm's license, get a job of your own, buy a handgun to protect yourself against that prick in case he decides to take violence to another level and you become "in fear for your life".
Now for the record, you never even "show" a gun unless you fear for your life or firmly believe that someone is trying to take your life, and then you use the minimum amount of force necessary to control the situation.
Why am I saying all this? Because I can't stand most NTCC men obviously with some exceptions. The women on the other hand are victims of serious abuse both psychological and sometimes physical. NTCC men and the NTCCs sorry false doctrine essentially takes the life from NTCC women and children. I can't stand it. They treat you women like second class citizens FALSELY citing and falsely interpreting scriptures. That is a fact and I can prove it every time and not one NTCC preacher in the world can even come close to effectively proving me wrong. Keepers at home means good house keeper; it doesn't mean you can't work. No wear that which pertaineth unto a man in the original Hebrew text means that a woman should not wear weapons used in war by a "STRONG" man or a man "fit for Battle". It does not mean women can't wear pants.
See, these NTCC guys got you NTCC women duped, fooled and they've stolen your independence and any chance for career success in this life that God gave to you. The after life may be important but so is this one ladies. Think about it.
Chief,
I was one of the emotionally and then physically abused women. My husband emotionally abused me nearly every day but only physically abused me one time. He got mad because I refused to go to "marriage counseling" (yeah what a joke) with him and the pastor- Mike Marshall. He was angry by my refusal. He threw and flipped me head first causing me to strike my head on a metal milk crate. I didn't call the pastor, I went immediately to the E.R. as I was taking blood thinner at the time. I had a seriously strained neck and concussion.
I then called the police and told his commander. I got seriously chewed out by the pastor because, "It's a ministerial problem not a law enforcement problem". In the '80's the Thurston County, WA prosecutor was taking no crap from my pastor or husband and neither was I. I divorced my husband and left for good.
Too bad it took physical abuse for me to leave. I should have left long before when it was just emotional abuse from my husband and from behind the pulpit. The Prosecuting Attorney was familiar with NTCC and cult abuse tactics. It was like the Attorney was God sent.
Abused Anon Lady wrote...
I then called the police and told his commander. I got seriously chewed out by the pastor because, "It's a ministerial problem not a law enforcement problem". In the '80's the Thurston County, WA prosecutor was taking no crap from my pastor or husband and neither was I. I divorced my husband and left for good.
Chief wrote...
His pastor was a jerk, of course. Good Job. I'm glad you took that approach. Counseling from that pastor would have been useless anyway which of course you already knew. What ever happened to your ex? Did he get charged? I hope so. Again, that's a good testimony. I hope some other NTCC ladies read what you did and maybe it will give them some extra courage. You women shouldn't and don't have to put up with that nonsense.
You said that it was like the attorney was God sent. I'll tell you this. The attorney was more "God sent" then that sorry NTCC pastor you had. The attorney was more God sent then Kekel, Davis, Olson, Jones, Kinson or any of the rest of those scum bag NTCC leaders. Good job girl. I hope your life is going well.
Chief
I knew Mike Marshall and he was a terrorist, spiritually speaking. He terrorized his own wife and her children! And he had his nose so far up Davis' backside it wasn't funny. He was a real genuine scum bag.
He later wound up in jail for armed robbery. And from what I understand he recently got out of jail and has returned to ministry.
The emotional abuse both from Marshall and my spouse was so bad that I went to the VA for counseling and had EVERYTHING documented from day one when the emotional and spiritual abuse started. My husband and Marshall would say such derogatory things to me about seeking psychiatric help for the depression my marriage and NTCC caused.
It was all too clear that my life could be endangered by the veiled threats from my spouse and the pulpit. I just reminded them both that everything that was happening was documented. My therapist also counseled others in cults so she too took the threats seriously.
Mike Marshall said that no police officer could possibly make it into heaven and that they worked for satan. My husband believed that every word from Marshall's mouth was straight from God. He went so far as to say, "If pastor told me to jump off the Tacoma Narrows bridge, I would, because God would be testing me and He would catch me before I hit the water." Another favorite saying of my ex was, "Pastor (Marshall) is so close to God that he never misses God." My ex never attended bible school so Marshall was hand feeding him all that crap.
I never seen him strike his wife Dianne however I witnessed him up in her face screaming at her when she made an error practicing piano. I feared for her safety and wanted to intervene but didn't make my presence known fearing he may punish her physically if I had done so.
My heart broke for Dianne Marshall and her boys. I was so happy she left him. I only pray that she has a happier marriage.
Marshall admitted from the pulpit several times that he had thrown the boys against the wall causing them to put a hole in the plaster with their heads. He to his credit stated that he felt awful and apologized to the boys and said he would never do it again. Later I went to the youngest and asked him if Marshall apologized- he only teared up and shook his head no.
Marshall had a new maroon (I believe) La Sabre. He would brag about it yet his wife drove the boys to school in an unsafe, oil pucking, falling apart Ford Pinto. She traveled 200 miles each day taking the kids to school while he would drive his new La Sabre to Graham to spent time kissing up to Davis. I never saw her drive it once. Even when Marshall was at the Home she still had to take the Pinto to grocery shop.
My husband tried that on me once. I had bought him a new car after we married since his was falling apart. He told me I wasn't allowed to drive it because I might wreck it. I explained that I made all the payments, I paid the insurance, I did the maintenance thus I would drive it too. That's the only reason they don't want women to have an independent income. We don't have to stick around and be bullied.
The waking of the wife in the middle of night to do something for the man made it around to my husband. He woke me in the middle of the night and told me to fix him some eggs. I said NO! He told me that he was lord and master of my life and I was being disobedient by not being submissive. I reminded him that only God was lord and master of my life and that he would not get any food cooked for the next month- and he didn't.
I feel my husband and I could have had a decent chance at a marriage if it weren't for all the crazy stuff these men were taught away from us women during Saturday night fellowship. I would sit outside some nights and be appalled by what Marshall would spew from his mouth. Barnes was the assistant Pastor- don't get me started on him!
My ex was charged with 4th degree misdemeanor spousal assault. With my permission the prosecutor pulled all my VA counseling records, the E.R. records talked to my therapist and psychiatrist and took my sworn statement.
He also made it clear that I had no say in dropping the case- which Marshall told me to do. The State of Washington was prosecuting my ex, not me.
Documention was the key for getting charges to stick. Also, the strength I received from my therapist was invaluable. Another reason they don't want you to see counselors outside of the church. What you tell them will be documented and can be used in a court of law.
My ex was also an abuser. Thank God the pastor got wind of it and shut it down temporarily. However, it made his actions more covert. His Lt sensed I was being abused, but I was too scared to say anything.
He would yell call me stupid because I gave money to the salvation army. Then turn around and steal from me. Embarrass me because I also sought the aid of a therapist.Once I did that the abuse piled on even after I dropped out of care.
Wow, what a thread!. In reference to the R W adultery charges and him leaving town, I always heard him say that while he was in a hotel room an angel appeared to him and told him to "get up and not run and that the ones who were pursuing him had fled" - and also "God told me that in time I would be justified like joseph because I had not committed the sins I was accused of". I heard these with my own ears on more than one occasion. That being said, it is quite worrisome that if these accusations are true we are dealing with one serious liar also. I am just floored over how far NTCC has fallen from the early days.
Anonymous said...
I am just floored over how far NTCC has fallen from the early days.
Chief said...
Fallen? You have to rise before you fall. They'd never risen. I was in the NTCC in the early 80s and the church was full of scum bag leaders then just like they are now. It was all a smoke screen. Davis was lying. Davis has been a con artist all along. They've all been. All the old timers also like Marshall, Blumenthal, Ashmore, Defransesco, Kinson, Jones, Kekel, Taylor, Ramirez and especially Olson. All hypocrites and fakes. Every last one of them has been caught in a mess and every one has been exposed. Defransesco is the only one I've not heard dirt on, but what I'm absolutely positive of is that he's been privy to everyone else's dirt which makes him just as guilty.
The NTCC has never been right, NEVER!!! I big smoke screen is all it's been. Wolves in sheep's clothing all along. They've all been covering for each other all along. I know, I spent enough years there. Too many.
It's been a farce all along, trust me. NO DOUBT. Heck, even Gaylord. He's the one who covered for Davis when he got caught up in his adultery scam in the early days. Gaylord and Olson had been covering and covering up things for Davis all along. Everyone talks so great about the Gaylords. I've had enough of that too. I just don't buy it anymore. Pop knew what was going on just like the rest. He may have been a good guy himself but he certainly turned a blind eye to Davis' hypocrisy for the longest which makes him just as guilty because he enabled Davis. He was like the get away driver in a bank robbery. He didn't commit the actual crime of theft, he just assisted the thief.
I've read too much and been told too much and been a personal witness to too much. Hell, I watched Taylor whip his boy viciously and I explained it away because I was stupid and brainwashed. I watched Taylor, Ramirez and Mayers viciously verbally abuse people and because I was so stupid and brainwashed I also explained it away until I couldn't stand it any longer and that's when I left the church when I watched Hunt and Oberhauser pull the same exact stunts. They are or were all a bunch of pricks. They NTCC has ALWAYS been totally messed up and a real deal cult. I know now for certain.
Thanks Chief for your comment about Pop Gaylord. He and his wife were very kind to me (I was only a member) and he was the only "humane" pastor that I met in the '80's but I could never reconcile the fact that he knew everything that was going on.
I have always held him responsible for covering up and enabling the evils that occurred in NTCC.
Chief is right--the NTCC was born in sin and shapen in iniquity. That thing was an abortion from the get-go. RWD was a scammer and liar and known charlatan, and he gathered some birds of a feather and duped a bunch of others into serving his own interests. Pop Gaylord is a big legend and he always personally treated me right, but he does bear responsibility for his part in the whole mess, and one of his grandkids did post online about how he never saw anything resembling the saint others have described.
Difrancesco is untarnished because he's never occupied any role with authority over people. All the others have been pastors and overseers, so at some point have exploited people directly. DiFrancesco's the money man and maybe he still teaches at the BS. But teachers have no direct authority over students. RW was very adamant that he was the one and only pastor around there, and woe to the teacher that even thought about usurping.
It's refreshing to hear a tale of conquest over the dark forces of NTCC control. I lived in the same building as Marshall back on Robert Ave. I helped pay for that place, which is owned by Tanya and Verna now. Mike was a couple years ahead of me and got sent out before graduation, if I remember right. He definitely was a smooth operator, appearing quite earnest and persuasive. I was pretty shocked when the "disfellowship letter" arrived when we were in Philadelphia.
Hopefully NTCC women will be encouraged to act likewise should the occasion arise, and kick their abusers to the curb. Exploiters revel in their power, but there are real authority structures that can make short work of them should they become too aggressive. I'm sure the situation above was hushed up; I know I never heard a whisper of that scandal. I think half the pastor moves back in the day were prompted by some kind of blowout or another, and they had to shuffle people around to stay ahead of the heat. Move problem pastors someplace else so they can victimize others, as long as they keep the $ rolling in and funnel people to the brainwashing school. I heard that RW knew Mike Marshall was smoking cigarettes when he sent him to the Philippines as a missionary. He knew Mike could produce. But apparently the temptations became a bit too strong over there and he acted out too much, so and they had to give him the boot.
Chief, are you saying the NTCC and everything in it or about it is of the devil? Yes or no?
Anonymous asked...
Chief, are you saying the NTCC and everything in it or about it is of the devil? Yes or no?
Chief said...
I could be wrong and if I am, feel free to correct me but I think that question was a baited question? Example and definition: Baited Quesion:
They're luring you into a trap just by asking you the question. The question is the bait!
For example, if someone said, "Do you still beat your wife?"
Even if you said no, it'd sounds like you used to beat your wife. And obviously if you said yes, that's no good either.
Well in this case if I say no, that would be suggesting that the NTCC has "good" in it and maybe implying that "all churches have issues" which could be considered no big deal. And if I say yes, that would be suggesting that there has never been anything good or any good people in th NTCC which would obviously be refuted by anyone in the NTCC who considers them self a decent person.
So here is my answer and it won't be a "yes or no" thank you, because I'm not unwise enough to take the bait, assuming it was a baited question which it would certainly appear.
To the person who asked the question, have you ever met the Devil face to face? Do you know the Devil personally? Why don't you ask the question in a more tangible fashion; something like this. Do I think that RWD has always been to one degree or another up to no good, and do I think that he has always been a hypocrite and primarily always been after our money for the purpose of satisfying his own greed? Yes!!! I'm sure!
Do I think Kekel uses people and do I think he's been handed his position on a silver platter primarily and exclusively because he's RWD's son-in-law? Absolutely!!! Kekel's was certainly not selected by God as the result of Kekel being some wonderful great godly leader because he's anything but.
Could I see any reason whatsoever to recommend that any of my family or friends visit an NTCC church service? Absolutely not!!!
Do I think the NTCC leadership is using everyone in the entire church for their own selfish reasons? You bet.
Do I know the Devil? Never met him but I do know that the NTCC leadership has totally sensationalized the Devil's role on this earth for the express purpose to making people overly superstitious and to make them live in fear. Well 2 Tim 1:7 says that God has not given us the spirit of fear.
I could care less about the Devil and I'm not one bit afraid to boldly state that RWD was a complete conniving, double standard, money hungry hypocrite scumbag and so is Kekel and one or the other has been running the entire church from the beginning.
So the question is, do you consider that of the Devil? I consider it hypocrisy, greed and an organization which has been led by a bunch of scumbags and I have more than enough proof from thousands of reliable witnesses and thousands of real testimonies to back up my claim without doubt.
Chief said...
Fallen? You have to rise before you fall. They'd never risen. I was in the NTCC in the early 80s and the church was full of scum bag leaders then just like they are now. It was all a smoke screen. Davis was lying. Davis has been a con artist all along. They've all been. All the old timers also like Marshall, Blumenthal, Ashmore, Defransesco, Kinson, Jones, Kekel, Taylor, Ramirez and especially Olson. All hypocrites and fakes. Every last one of them has been caught in a mess and every one has been exposed.
Anon says:
Well, Chief you can't have it both.
I'm not sure what you are implying or saying but again, the NTCC is a serious menace to society and what you quoted me saying certainly stands. I see no place where I contradicted myself. I simply use tangible descriptions to identify hypocrite NTCC leaders rather than refer to them as the "Devil" which is hardly descriptive at all.
The young lad had been repairing the chicken with the tar and he felll into the tar barrell and feathers were stuck all over him, when his mother saw him she said throw him back in the tar barrell ....he is to much to clean up.
This is just to much to clean up, so I will not try,I will say a couple of things, since you want it "fair and balanced", which raised my thinking of you 50 points, which I am sure does not matter to anyone but me.
When the lady stood and made the statement about the play on her, RWD was not even in town.
Also, when this woman made these charges, the mother of that woman stood and said that her girl (woman) was not telling the truth and was a lier.
Proof was offered and all that wanted to see, could see these facts, no wanted to see them.
As for Tanya Wright, her father said he had never heard of that deal with MCK. He is in contact her, if fact both of them and even on FB with some of the boys.
The Myrtle Beach deal was not a "board decision," it was a vote by the whole church body that was in that meeting. You never heard that did you?
DT closed his comment section because he is not telling all the story, which I will not tell neither, because of the confidence deal, but will tell you it is not as he tells his story on his blog.
I had pastors number. Called him every night for years.
Ref. PI: The reason they had a small house in the PI was that was all they could find at this time. They were in the middle of a huge storm and flood.
Are you illiterate? Or is it the drugs you use that make you write so poorly?
Anyway, it sounds a lot like Larry Duran, who is really Jerry Duran the son of Ashmore. We just wrote a comment where we referenced him on our blog and it wasn't an hour and we got one of his token, "you bitter idiots are just jealous that you don't have the blessings of God on you" comments which we didn't bother to publish either. If he would put his name on it he would have a much better chance of getting his stuff published, but when you take an insulting and preaching tone toward us and hide behind the anonymous tag, there is no reason to publish it.
Jerry Duran isn't qualified to say anything about anybody! That piece of trash walked away from his own beautiful wife, stole another man's wife, and broke up a family. He's a SCUM of all SCUMBAGS!
Chief,
I agree with you wholeheartedly concerning "Is NTCC of the devil or not?" That wasn't a baited question that was filling the waters with chum.
It really bothers me when folks don't take responsibility for their actions and say, "the devil is tempting me". Folks if you are a Christian you have OVERCOME the devil. You are totally responsible for your own actions! Blaming the devil for all your problems is a mentality I never bought into when in NTCC. I saw it for what it is, a sorry excuse that man uses to get away with hideous deeds.
So asking "is NTCC is of the devil or not?" is really saying, "Since the devil is almighty and powerful unlike God, NTCC and its leaders can't possibly be responsible for any wrong doing".
Yes, God is the almighty and powerful so why give Satan all the credit when you or NTCC does wrong? Place the blame where it belongs.
Joan B.
Anonymous said...
When the lady stood and made the statement about the play on her, RWD was not even in town.
Chief said...
I wasn't there but what you just wrote doesn't contradict with Brother D's testimony. He said RWD was advised to leave town because of the allegations. Three different women? Usually where there is smoke there is fire but Who knows, I wasn't there. Brother D was and he's affirmed this steadfastly for the last 7 years.
Anonymous wrote...
Also, when this woman made these charges, the mother of that woman stood and said that her girl (woman) was not telling the truth and was a liar.
Chief responded....
That also doesn't contradict Pam's testimony. She said that her mother refused to believe her and Pam has also been saying that all along. No contradiction there. As much dirt as Ms Warwick has been involved with, I hardly find her a credible witness especially being that she couldn't possibly have been in Pam's house when Davis was reported to have had his hands between her legs.
Not one statement you made was very compelling. I'm just being honest. You didn't really make reference to yourself having any personal involvement at all. Everything you've stated is either second or third hand. As far as Wrights involvement: I don't know. Someone said his daughter used to makes trips to Kekel's house. So one person is telling the truth and one person is not. I've completely lost all confidence in NTCC leadership so their credentials certainly do not correspond with any degree of honesty because they've completely proven otherwise and Mr. Wright is no exception.
So I hear what you are saying but not a lot there. Now I've listened to RWD and he is a blow hard, bragging, greedy dude for sure because I've heard him speak first hand so all these testimonies confirm what I already know.
Thanks for the input. You see it's still on this blog as I feel you should have a voice here but that doesn't necessarily mean that I agree.
Ahhh! Life is good, and just keeps getting gooder, and gooder all the time! Celebrated our 27th wedding anniversary yesterday. I took my Lovely wife to the Space Needle for a wonderful night out on the Town. Seattle is such a beautiful city, especially from the vantage point of the "Needle" as you rotate around enjoying a fine dinning experience.
It was double celebration for us because my pretty little lady just finished her Bachelors program at Central Washington University. Congratulations and Happy Anniversary baby!
mdr
MDR,
I'm so happy for you and your lovely wife. Tell her congrats for me please. I'm sure it's nice to have a real degree like GK. Haha. Had to throw that in there. Happy anniversary Bro. It's good to be free. Seattle sounds like a really beautiful place. Never visited. I know you must be very proud of your wife's accomplishments. Thankfully now that she is out of the NTCC, she can be a real, (Proverbs 31 Woman). Virtuous. Who can find a virtuous woman? Well if you follow the NTCC false doctrine, (like we all did) a woman can forget about being considered virtuous at least according to bible standards.
Proverbs 31: She stretcheth out her hand to the poor.
That ain't happening in the NTCC. The NTCC leadership forbids and looks down on that kind of charity.
She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
HA!!!! Tell me about one woman in the NTCC who's ever tried that one? What a joke. These NTCC chauvinist pigs are lucky to let a woman buy a new, clean, toilet bowl to sit on say no less a field for crying out loud.
She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Are you serious??? Sounds too much like a dog gone JOB to me. Selling and making deliveries? You've got to be kidding me. NTCC women would be lucky if they were allowed to deliver the rent to their sorry NTCC landlord, say no less sell and deliver merchandise to a business owner.
She openeth her mouth with wisdom
Are you kidding me? Open her mouth? Not around RWD she wouldn't have. And the only way she is opening up her mouth around Kekel is if she is bent over getting ready to go down on his you-know-what when she is supposed to be cleaning his house.
She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
What!!!! Serious!!!! Tell me about one NTCC woman who's ever been allowed to bring "ANYTHING" from afar. Sorry RWD like NTCC men would be lucky to let her drive the car to the next block to buy a new microwave say no less bringing food from afar.
NTCC woman ain't virtuous like the Bible says, they are like second class citizens and slaves. A degree? Heck, in the NTCC they are lucky to finish high school.
Congrats again MDR for getting out of the NTCC so your wife can be what God wants her to be, "A REAL VIRTUOUS WOMAN".
Thanks Chief! Ur da man!
mdr
Just a simple question folks. Is NTCC of the devil or of God? Yes or No.
Ntcc is of man
"Anonymous said...
Ntcc is of man"
Perfect. This is the kind of answer Jesus himself would have given to the Pharisees who were trying to entrap him. Maybe God or the Devil didn't have a thing to do with it. According to Joe Olson "The organization IS RW Davis." Can't get more "of man" than that.
Case closed.
Again Anon asked...
Just a simple question folks. Is NTCC of the devil or of God?
Again Chief said...
Still not taking the bait. How about, "Is the NTCC good or bad"? Chief said... It's bad. I'm not entertaining all that overly religious mumbo jumbo. Here is a question for you. Is God bad? You decide. Go ahead and ask that question again and I'll show you where the Devil winds up on this blog. Right in the trash, LOL. The NTCC sucks, hows that.
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers chiefy.
1 John 3:8-10
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.
Anon said...
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers chiefy. 1 John 3:8-10
Chief said...
You didn't. That's a strong group of verses you cited. Do those verses make you feel guilty? Not saved? Condemned? Live by the sword, die by the sword. Do you cite those verses often? I suspect you are the judgmental type. Some of the most judgmental hypocritical ministers I ever knew in the NTCC used to like to toss around scriptures like the particular ones you just cited.
Oberhauser talked about the possibility of "obtaining perfection" or being perfect on occasion. RWD was bold enough to proclaim that he couldn't remember the last time he'd sinned. Oh, and you just cited, seemingly without reservation, 1 Jo 3.
Yeah, the righteous kind. I'm sure glad I won't be sitting in anymore NTCC churches where ministers toss scriptures like those around like they are impervious to the implications contained.
Anon said ..."Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts."
Chief you nailed it when addressing anon. This is so typical of the hypocrite's like the ones in the NTCC. They love condemning others for the things that they are guilty of themselves.
They're just like the Pharisees. When they get together they eat up both the people in their churches and the ones that have left their churches, but when someone calls them out for their SIN'S, they get all indignant and self-righteous.
The Preachers in the NTCC are TURDS...STINKY TURDS in the nostrils of God!
Just Sayin'
Fuss on, already making me wonder if you all are not on dope. D/A writing to one another, like it is someone else, your all crazy!
Bro. DD was a real hot lips when he was in BS, I remember him being called, well never mind, not a good report.
Hey anonymous,
You're making some negative alligations about Bro DD. Why not be a real man or woman and sign your actual name? It could give credence to your hollow name calling. Typical NTCC cowardness.
Joan B.
Anon wrote...
Fuss on, already making me wonder if you all are not on dope.
Chief said...
I wonder the same thing sometimes myself. LOL. I'm sure I'm not though; I think...
Chief
You know, I don't blame him for not signing his name. Sometimes it's good to be anonymous. I really mean that. For what it's worth, the person writing would appear to be someone who's been around the NTCC for quite a long time. There aren't too many people who's been around as long as Brother D. Ashmore? Kekel? Just a select few others? Not a very big list I'm sure. Having said that, these blogs do get quite kooky sometimes.
When I get kooky, I do it deliberately and I know I'm doing it. That's not always the case around these blogs. For a variety of reasons, the NTCC draws a lot of kooks and people who are missing a few screws to it's organization and because these blogs are largely made of exers, there's no shortage of kooks around here. I believe that to be fact. There is certainly no shortage of kooks and people who are missing a few marbles running around the NTCC. That's also a fact. I lived in one serviceman's home with a bunch of them. I can think of 3 or 4 with just a little thought. I actually just thought of even more. I'm up to 5 or 6 now from the same serviceman's home. These dudes were "OUT THERE"!!! I mean OUT THERE!!
At the time, I just thought that God was very accepting of people who had a few loose screws. I don't necessarily feel that way now. I think people with loose screws are easy targets to NTCC brainwashers and NTCC Con-Men. It's easy enough to get a smart man with a sound mind to give up his money. How much easier is it to do the same to someone missing a few screws? Much! There is one right here in Columbus Georgia. Last I knew, he was still in the NTCC. This dude is definitely missing a few screws and these pastors have been taking advantage of him for years.
So you know what Anon? I'm not going to argue with you or debate you on this because you and I actually agree with each other on this topic to one degree or another. If you are in the NTCC or you've ever been in the NTCC, you have to be somewhat crazy and I sincerely believe that. Everyone who spent any amount of time in the NTCC as some point was certainly not playing with a full deck and that's me included without doubt. If we weren't that way already, the NTCC made us that way and some who've got out having changed a bit.
Some folks who've left the NTCC are still way out there. So how do you like that Anon? So if you are part of the NTCC leadership or even an NTCC pastor or minister, you are way out there also and I'm sure about that. All NTCC ministers are out there to one degree or another, ALL!!!! RWD brainwashed them and made them that way if they weren't that way already.
By the way, the serviceman's home that I previously referred to with the kooks was outside Ft. Hood Tx, 1985-1987. I can think of 4 guys who were nutty as a fruit cake and a few others who where missing at least a few marbles also. I won't name names because I see no benefit in that. MDR would know them and I'm sure he'd agree. Two of them were borderline "retarded" or maybe extremely mentally impaired. The other two were seriously weird and real nutty just the same. Oh, I just thought of a 5th who was pretty far out there also and that stuck with him.
So make no mistake, if you are in the NTCC, you have some seriously kooky people who you fellowship with. I'm embarrassed to have ever been a part of that group. Boy I was a dummy. I may still be a dummy but there is one dummy I won't be... The kind who gets sucked into a group of sorry, con artist, religious leaders. The NTCC DEFINITELY taught me a lesson about that one and learning certainly took place. I've graduated and I won't be going back to that school. Lesson learned.
Chief said... "MDR would know them and I'm sure he'd agree. Two of them were borderline "retarded" or maybe extremely mentally impaired."
Chief, I definitely remember all of the Kooks in the servicemen's home! We often excused their Kookiness in the name of Christianity! There were times that I was embarrassed to even be around those dudes, especially when we went to a restaurant.
Anon said..."Fuss on, already making me wonder if you all are not on dope"
Anon, you think were on dope? Well, you are still in the Ntcc, defending them. All the while they take your money and laugh all the way to the various banks that they keep it in. So, who is the dope? You're a "duped Dope!" So keep on giving, cause Kekel the Schmekel needs to make a Mercedes payment for his son! duffus!
mdr
Headline News!
Independent investigator Ted Wells submitted his report to Commissioner Roger Goodell and the New England Patriots on Wednesday in relation to the footballs used in the AFC Championship Game against the Indianapolis Colts.
The findings are now available to the public.
There are hundreds of pages of the report to go through, but here are some of the key sections that conclude the findings:
"We have concluded that it is more probable than not that Jim McNally (the Officials Locker Room attendant for the Patriots) and John Jastremski (an equipment assistant for the Patriots) participated in a deliberate effort to release air from Patriots game balls after the balls were examined by the referee.
"Based on the evidence, it also is our view that it is more probable than not that Tom Brady (the quarterback for the Patriots) was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities of McNally and Jastremski involving the release of air from Patriots game balls," the report reads.
The reports says that other Patriots personnel were not aware of the effort.
There it is Chief! The Patriots need to change their name to the "Cheatriots!" I used to think that Tom Brady was the best to ever play the game...well, not anymore! The "Cheatriots" should be stripped of their tiles. period! They haven't won since "Spy Gate" and now they win in lieu of "Deflate Gate!" They suck!
GO HAWKS!
mdr
MDR wrote...
There were times that I was embarrassed to even be around those dudes, especially when we went to a restaurant.
Chief said...
I wasn't "embarrassed" by them. I actually thought it was nice that people accepted them regardless of how they were but that doesn't change what the NTCC leadership was up to. The NTCC leadership was simply using them and targeting guys like that. The """ONLY""" reason those guys were happily recruited and welcomed by the NTCC leadership was because they had steady income. Otherwise RWD and his pastors taught to avoid people like that. They would't have touched guys like that with a ten foot pole if they didn't have a job.
You see, years back in the 70s and 80s during the cold war, the Army's recruiting policies were extremely liberal. It wasn't uncommon to see someone on active duty who was practically retarded or severely mentally challenged. I was in during the early 80s and it wasn't uncommon to see guys like that on active duty. I'm talking about guys who were missing a whole bunch of marbles. The NTCC would capitalize on guys like that and bleed them for every dime they could get. The NTCC leadership would welcome a retard in a minute if he or she could pay tithe. If they couldn't pay tithe, the NTCC leadership openly and actively taught to have nothing to do with them. Thats no mystery as that's common knowledge.
So consequently, there were always plenty of guys who were "way out there" running around the NTCC. Like I said, there is one such guy right here in Columbus and the last I knew, he'd been in the NTCC for close to 8 years or so. There is definitely something very wrong with this dude but he gets money from the VA, (I'm fairly certain) and he works on a job that could be taught to a monkey for crying out loud. I know, I've seen him somewhat often. Now, there is nothing wrong with that and heck, it's good that the guy is working. That's more then I can say for a lot of folks a whole lot smarter than him.
Anyway, the point being, this guy can't effectively make many decisions on his own and he's easily manipulated. I've talked to him and his thinking is (so to speak) rather odd to put it lightly. He makes strange and weird decisions. So why does the NTCC have so many guys like that?
Bottom line plain and simple, they are easy targets and if nothing else they can do hard labor and they make guys like Kekel feel important and a whole lot smarter than he really is. Anyone can feel smart around a dummy.
Here is the bottom line. If those guys couldn't pay tithe, the NTCC leadership wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. Tell me I'm lying. Davis taught that during conference. He didn't want you to evangelize anyone who you knew didn't have a job. So basically, the only ones who could get to heaven were people with jobs? Homeless couldn't get to heaven? A jobless widow couldn't get to heaven? A poor jobless dude couldn't get to heaven at least not in the NTCC. But a borderline retard who was nuttier than a fruit cake who paid tithe could get there, right?
MDR said...
There were times that I was embarrassed to even be around those dudes, especially when we went to a restaurant.
Chief said...
Don't get me wrong, I understand MDR's point totally. I wasn't judging MDR's response because here are the facts. If I'd met a couple of these guys around the way, I would have been nice to them and maybe even defended them if someone picked on them. That doesn't mean we would have hung out or been partners because that's highly unlikely. I simply don't have a lot in common with someone mentally disabled to that degree.
The NTCC leadership doesn't either. You wouldn't have seen Davis or Kekel hanging out with one of those guys. Davis and Kekel only had an interest in those guys for two reasons. Hard labor and money and you are a straight idiot if you think otherwise. And that's the difference between me and Davis/Kekel.
I wouldn't hang out with them but I wouldn't use them for what I could get out of them either. I wouldn't see dollar signs every time I looked at the dummy and I'm just being real.
Hi Chief,
Dude,speak for yourself! Ntcc was not the "league of morons". That may have been true on the men's end! MOST of the women were brilliant and gave up a considerable ambitions to marry or attend church. Humph!!!
Yeah, I read about Brady on ESPN. If it wasn't already tainted enough, his reputation should be now. I could care less about the balls, it's the fact that he categorically denied it when he probably should have just come clean. It was right before the Superbowl so coming clean would be a lot easier said than done. He'll probably get a suspension. I'm still glad they beat the chickenhawks. Go Brady.
Anonymous said...
Dude,speak for yourself! Ntcc was not the "league of morons".
Chief wrote...
It wasn't? That's news to me. I thought we were all morons? Just some were smarter morons than others.
Brilliant hey? Some of the sisters were no different than some of those brothers. The NTCC didn't attract the smartest folks in the world and that's an understatement and I certainly fall in that category. There were plenty of times that we were all dumber than a box of rocks and some of those women were no exception.
Hey Brother D. I guess you figured out what I was doing.
It's amazing how stupid I really was for the years I was in. What was worse is the way I started treating people though. Judgmental doesn't begin to paint a proper picture.
While I agree with the "Dumber than a box of rocks" statement I think what was worse is the judgmental prick I became.
ANON MIKE
Kekel must have a lot of children from all these women!!! Do they know that Kekel is their father??
The husbands of these wives probably don't know that Kekel is the father of some children???!!!!
Brother D wrote...
People are nutty.
Chief wrote...
Yes they are. Yeah, that is exactly what I was doing. It was getting a little out of hand. You know there is always someone who will try to discredit anyone who has something negative to say about the NTCC. Nothing new there. Later DD.
Anon wrote...
Kekel must have a lot of children from all these women!!!
Chief wrote...
I think "a lot" might be a stretch but I wouldn't be surprised a bit if I found out there was at least a couple. Nothing I find out about the NTCC and it's leaders surprises me anymore. Kekel was slapping these ladies butts for a reason. Just like the one sister said, she felt like he was trying her to see how far she'd let it go.
Dont feed the tribble!
Anon wrote...
Chief, your ratio here is about 2-3 to 1. Not as bad. Still too much vs everyone else.
Chief wrote...
Kind of the nature of the business. I hear you though. People probably get tired of reading several comments in a row from the same person. I can tone it down. Generally I try to respond to certain messages rather than just arbitrarily write too much of my own. Of course I can get carried away with too much typing sometimes. Anyway, I get your point.
Plus, not much substance here which is the reason I only check once every few months.
Fair enough. I'd agree with that also.
Having said that, I don't know how much more substance there could be other than what already exists. If that's not enough for someone to leave the NTCC, they are brainwashed to the hilt. It also takes time on occasion; to leave that is. Either way. It's actually not my problem anyway. I got a life and a very good one.
If people in the NTCC are content to waste theirs, it has no impact on me. Plenty of people in the religious world are wasting much time and money and that will never end. Think about all the denominations and different religions who are convinced that everyone else is wrong other than them. Well I'm convinced that the NTCC as much or more wrong than all of them. No doubt in my mind.
Well, up another 10 points, not bad, and sometimes there is wisdom in old news, for many times it has lots of truth,for truth is truth, regardless of what others say or think, which does not change truth, so keep up the fussing and for allowing me space in your thinking and blog.
So I read on another blog that their April Conference was down to about half the building. Can anyone else substantiate that?
I think if that's the case we can point to a victory.
The only victory will be when the ntcc leaders are behind bars.
One thing is for sure, they'll never see jail time. I'll settle for a crumbling empire.
I want them to stay awake at night wondering who is next to fly the coup. Who is next to be vilified in an effort to tow the company line. What the hell is the company line anyways?
I want those purveyors of misery to read this blog and wonder what kind of damage control they need to do next. Sex crimes, sexual misconduct, greed, pyramid scheme, the list goes on. Having to spend every waking moment on defense is a hell unto itself.
Kekel, you're a slime ball
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