Horror Stories
By Casey Hayes
Thread #13 In all my time in ntcc—I’ve met a lot of abusive pastors. And get this—they were ALL favorites of Davis. What does that tell you? Blumenthal, Mike Marshall, Keith Gandy, Wright, Dennis, Bradeen, Dorsey, and others. They were the Untouchables. They could take advantage of people, treat people like dirt, scream at people over nothing, you name it-- and they could get away with it, because Davis would defend them every time. That's how Denis was able to cause the "split"-- because Davis wouldn't let anyone talk bad about his golden boy. Then when Denis rebelled, Davis said God hid it from him. Bull! Davis hid it from himself. Gandy, Wright and Dorsey are still on the loose. They’ve ruined a lot of lives.
Let me tell you some of my horror stories—and it’s going to take me more than this post to do it. And I’m just skimming the surface, because I could write a book about it all.
· For some reason Blumenthal didn’t like me and always treated me bad. He took every opportunity to rebuke me or put me down in front of others. It was incredible. About 2 days after I got married in 1989, me and my new bride are in church, and Blumenthal starts going off on me from behind the pulpit, and tells me I’m going to hell, in front of the whole church! What was my crime? My wife didn’t quit her nursing job until AFTER we got married! Well, we needed the money, because we were flat broke. What makes a preacher do something like that? What makes someone humiliate someone in front of their new wife, when he could have easily pulled me aside and talked to me privately about the matter?
· After I had been teaching at the college for a couple of years Davis asks me what I want to do. I said, “I would like to train in a successful church”. He likes that—and says go to St. Louis and work with Bradeen. So me, being naïve, I get all excited about it. So I quit my job, rent a truck, tow my car and move my wife and 2 kids to St. Louis on a shoestring budget. After traveling for 3-4 days, I pull into St. Louis, excitedly walk into the church and Bradeen and his wife coldly say, “What are you doing here?” Huh? Apparently Davis didn’t tell them we were coming, and they made it clear we weren’t welcome. And we weren’t.
· So then I inherited Gandy as the pastor. Gandy is hands down the worst person in ntcc—well, next to Davis; next to Wright; next to Dorsey, next to...(fill in the blank). But like all bad pastors, he is a Jeckle and Hyde. He can be charming and funny, and then turn around and be a total jerk for no good reason. But he is a bully at heart. Gandy was always jacking me and my wife up for something. Stupid little things. One time I missed church, because I refused to drive the 20 miles to church in a bad ice storm in St. Louis. Jacked up. Another time I missed soul-winning meeting on Saturday, because we saw huge thunderstorms rolling in, and decided to visit people for church instead. Gandy not only went off on me, but told me in no uncertain terms that I didn’t love God or souls!!! But get this—we were the ONLY people to see anyone for church that day, because of a huge hail storm. Of course, he wouldn’t let me defend myself, because he’s a jerk.
How many of you have been jacked up by a preacher, who wouldn’t let you explain your side of the story, because they didn’t know what they were talking about? That’s the ntcc way. Do you people in ntcc really think “jacking people up” is pleasing to God?
· When I was in Bible school, in St. Louis, I had surgery on both of my feet. I came home from the hospital with strict orders from the doctor to not walk for 7 days. But, guess what? It was a church night. I had to call Rev. Ashmore to get permission to miss church. He didn’t want to give me permission, and gave me a guilt-trip for even wanting to miss service. So I did what every stupid member of ntcc does—I showed up for church barely able to walk. Why does it have to be that way? Wouldn’t a loving pastor tell you to stay home and get well? Not in ntcc! He was probably more concerned about my offering and his church report than me.
Let me tell you some horror stories of friends of mine:
· Mark Trovato and his family lived in “church property” in St. Louis. For those of you who don’t know—this is property owned by some of the ministers in ntcc. Most of these properties are dumps, and some are even condemned by the city. But, that never stops the ministers from guilt-tripping people into renting them. And they will NEVER sink their own money into fixing them, but make you spend your own money. I’m pretty sure that is illegal, according to the rental laws. Well, poor Mark Trovato’s dump had a faulty furnace, that would not shut off. He complained and complained to the St. Louis pastor (I don’t remember who), and was told they would NOT fix it. So what happens? The electric bill comes in and it is $1000!!! Mark cannot pay it. Mark and his family moved soon after that to Arizona to help in a church. So the St. Louis pastor calls Davis to complain that Mark is a deadbeat and doesn’t pay his bills. So Davis orders Trovato to pay the $1000 and takes away his minister’s license. It’s stupid. Trovato is not allowed to give his side of the story-- something that hurts him to this day. I am very happy to report that the Trovato’s do NOT go to ntcc anymore.
· Now let me tell you the sad story of Mark Noel and his family. They were cruely abused by Wright in St. Louis (circa 2004-6). It was bad. I don’t want to relate all the details, but Wright isn’t fit to call himself a Christian let alone a minister. He’s a disgrace. The Noels lived in “church” property where the roof leaked bad every time it rained. Wright refused to fix it and told Mark he had to fix it himself. Wright treated Noel and his wife so bad they don’t want anything else to do with the ministry. The story is ALOT worse than I am explaining, but Noel just keeps it to himself. I jokingly told someone that Wright was so bad Davis would promote him. And guess what? He got promoted to World Missions!!!! I guess Davis felt like 3rd world countries need more misery.
I know that 80% of the ministers in ntcc are good people, but the problem is that the other 20% are the ones in charge! You see, it's not like Kekel makes it out to be. The abuse isn't coming from renegade preachers who don't listen to what they are taught. The abuse comes from those who Davis promotes, and they are just doing what their master Davis has taught them.
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76 comments:
I am so going to give myself away here (if anyone I know reads this), so I'm not going to bother signing my name (only reason for being anonymous anyway is so I can't be googled lol).
I lived in St. Louis in church property when I was 17 for a few months. The way the duplex was set up on top was there was a large living room, and a large bedroom. Then there were two very small rooms I would generously call large walk in closets without the hangers. My bed fit in one, and my desk in the other, on the opposite side of the house. The room my bed was in became infested with flies, and the stench was absolutely horrible. We're talking the walls have been painted with sewage smell. Tunrs out the pidgeons had made it into the attic and were pooping all over the place - when we pulled out a board from the cealing, we were rained on from all the bird poop up there.
Rev. Curry was the pastor at the time, and when he was told about the problem, he told my dad to quarantine off the room. But noone ever came to fix the house, no repairs were ever made. My dad sealed off the room with a large tarp after spraying the bejeebees out of the entire room with bug spray. Once in a while my mom would go in and vacuum up all the dead bugs... wall to wall bugs... not one inch of carpet was left unlittered. Noone ever fixed up the house, and we finally moved out of there. The Ross's lived there before us, and were absolutely appalled, when I told them where we had lived, that the church hadn't already unloaded the property. It was on a street with multiple drug houses, and at any time of day you could look out the back window and see the prostitutes loitering around. Gross!!! Why on earth did NTCC feel the need to keep this property, and allow its ministers to live there? UGH!!!
Wow, Wow, Wow. Sound like a great bunch of concerned, good hearted, considerate people that I would certainly want to rent from. NOT.
I wonder how in the world Kekel and his cronies would defend the NTCC's honor with threads like this one popping up. What is the name of this blog? True Stories Of Life In The New Testament Christian Church? Looks like a few stories just got told this evening and I suppose they are nothing other than just a few more lies of the devil?
I don't think so. These people that Casey and Anonymous talk about claim to be Christians? These folk's don't even possess good common decency. You've got to be kidding me. It is a travesty. Anyone should be seriously alarmed when they read these testimonies and if you are still in the NTCC you should be seriously motivated to leave the NTCC for good and find a group lead by real Christians.
This is one of the most alarming threads that I have read to date.
The accounts that Casey and Anonymous wrote about are sickening. These are stories that everyone should know about before they decide whether or not to be a part of the NTCC. RWD and Kekel should be ashamed.
Jeff Collins
To Casey,
It is the 20% of the preachers/pastors in NTCC that are causing the problems. They are the reason so many people are leaving. Among Davis being the main reason.
To anonymous...gez.. all I can say is gez... totally stinking sick!
So glad you are both out. But wow! Sad, Just sad. I am throwing something together to post on my blog. Might take me a while (days or weeks). It isn't an experience I had in NTCC so can't be posted here. A bunch of stuff about how Christians should be, etc. And if you read it and then compaired it to most of NTCC you would definately have no doubt that they are a cult. And none of it has to do with how to recognize a cult. Just studying I've been doing on my own. The Ministry class I am taking (which isn't even half over yet)...We have to write a final paper on an experience we've had in life. Mine is going to be on my experience in NTCC.
what I am going to post on my blog is not going to be on NTCC. Just to clarify.
Anonymous,
Rev. Kekel seems to be on the go with answering e-mails from former members, why don't you copy and paste your message in an e-mail and send it to him.
Whether or not he says something about that is up to him, but at least you would have done your part by opening his eyes yet again to the living conditions of former members.
Casey said...
I know that 80% of the ministers in ntcc are good people, but the problem is that the other 20% are the ones in charge!
Jeff said...
The problem that I have with the 80% is that they know about the 20%. I know that sometimes it can take many years to figure out what the NTCC is "TRULY" all about, but sooner or later the 80% should get sick of knowing that their church members are going to wind up with the 20%. This definitely happen with folks in the military bouncing all around the world, going from church to church or they will wind up in Graham. I guarantee you will run into a severely abusive pastor if you bounce around the NTCC for any length of time.
When a leader that truly cares about people has that knowledge, he won't be able to stick around the NTCC for long. As a church member, I didn't even want to go soul winning anymore because I knew that the people that I brought to church would wind up with an abusive NTCC pastor and I saw it happen way too often. I care more about people than to allow that to happen so after leaving two NTCC churches I left the NTCC for good.
Now that you have Kekel the double standard practicing hypocrite in charge, I can't imagine anyone who has been with the org any length of time sticking around the NTCC if they have a conscience. At least if they truly care about people, they won't stick around the NTCC. This very thread that Casey started is evidence of that. How could you sit idly by and watch these things happen to your "BROTHER" and not even care or do anything about it? To do so places an individual in direct violation of Christ's most notable teaching, namely to "love thy neighbor as thyself"
Come on people that is what Christianity is all about and the information contained in this thread is the exact opposite of what Christianity is supposed to be all about. Is Casey lying or did Anonymous lie about what they wrote? Not even!!! Come on and wake up people.
Because of recent revelations about the NTCC that have been exposed on the internet, I think this 20% bad 80% good ratio is getting a whole lot closer to 50% bad - 50% good. This kind of information was hidden from us back in the day but it is no longer hidden so consequently these guys are hanging around the NTCC with a knowledge that we did not have. We didn't have the internet back then but now the NTCC has been exposed and many people know about it. I know for sure that NTCC people read these blogs because for various reasons it has been proven.
Jeff Collins
Waiting To Exhale wrote this on Tracy's blog:
It is interesting that Keckel says that we are all bitter etc. Of course I don't agree with his statement, but he needs to listen what is coming out of his own mouth. Doesn't bitterness typically come from being abused or hurt? I have never seen anyone become bitter from being treated well. It is almost like he is saying, "Yeah some of my preachers are self-serving and abusive .... but you are bitter!" If I am bitter due to what some so-called man of GAAAAWD did to me, don't you think you should police up his actions before he causes more bitter former members?
Come on Sir....you need to come up with something else!
Waiting to Exhale
Casey,
in my opinion you should give more detail so as to expose these wolves to a greater degree.
t
I was already starting to get ill from the smell and the bacteria all that poop bred in the room before the bugs started popping up. That's when my dad opened up the ceiling in my closet. It was absolutely horrid. Definitely no place for someone to live... the place should have been burned down. I understand that the church as sold it by now, due to the outside environment, not the rundown state of the building.
Hopefully who ever bought it tore it down or at least gutted the entire place and fixed it up.
A scripture for thought. Mostly for the "meany heads" or "corrupt Preachers" back at NTCC.
I'll provide the NIV and KJV version.
Luke 6:46 (NIV) "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
Luke 6:46 (KJV) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
The greatest Commandment according to Jesus is... LOVE!!! Where oh where is the Love? If you say you love God but you don't show love for others(people within NTCC and people outside of NTCC) then you don't love God. You can't love God and hate his creation! You can't love God and treat others like dirt or lesser than. That is NOT showing love!
Matthew 22:37-39 (KJV)Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:37-39 (NIV)Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.
I am assuming here that because so many people are treated poorly and not out of love within the ranks of NTCC that the person (usually the Pastor, even though I have witnessed regular members treating other members like dirt as well), that is treating them so poorly has no love for God, they obviously don't love themselves. Because if they did they would be loving towards their brothers and sisters at all times not only when it suited them.
Idaho Angie,
"meany heads"
Love it!
Waiting to Exhale
Angie,
Great points. Thanks for your comments.
Jeff Collins likes to say that ntcc pastors lack common decency. That is true. But what they also lack is basic Christian love-- or basic love period. Loving people don't treat people wrong. They are always concerned about your welfare and happiness. Alot of ntcc pastors could care less whether you live or die. They don't care if you're hungry, homeless, hurt, or sick. All they acer about is your money and making their church reports look good. That's a fact! Jesus said that those who lack compassion on people will not make it into heaven. (Matthew 25:41-46)
Something I am going to deal with in the future is how when you are going through hard times, who is it that comes to your rescue? Almost without fail it is a "sinner", who has compassion on you and wants to help you. Where are the so called Christians? I know-- they are too busy shopping for more expensive drapes, or polishing their luxury cars, or playing their expensive guitars. It's sick.
Casey, you're right about the "sinner" angle--when I was in dire situations, it wasn't the NTCC leadership who came to my assistance, but "sinners" and "compromisers." I remember once when my car broke down and I didn't have money to fix it. A guy at work, who the leadership would have comdemned as a "charisplastic" actually cashed in some CDs, paying early withdrawal penalties to do so, just to help me out of the jam. I accidentally dented this man's first ever brand-new car right before I went out into the ministry, and he wouldn't even let me pay for it. "Sinners" and "compromisers" have shown me far more Christian love and compassion than the false shepherds of NTCC.
One time we broke down on our way to pioneer a church in Philadelphia, and the "sinner" people who helped us were baffled about why we couldn't turn to the organization that sent us. I was ashamed and couldn't really explain to them how things were, mostly because I was in deep denial. I didn't want to admit to myself that I was just being used, but it was true.
It IS illegal for tenants to be forced to pay for their own repairs. Check the state laws on landlord tenent law, but in most states, the landlord is bound by law to pay upkeep on the house, including maintenance. I encourage anyone still in and living on NTCC property to check their laws and confront the property owner or landlord if you are being forced to pay your own maintenance.
JM
JM said...
It IS illegal for tenants to be forced to pay for their own repairs. Check the state laws on landlord tenant law, but in most states, the landlord is bound by law to pay upkeep on the house, including maintenance.
Jeff said...
To preface my statement I want you to know JM that I do understand your point and I appreciate your input.
With that being said, it may in fact be legal, even for example in the state of Missouri which is specifically where these atrocities have been alleged.
Legality however has little or nothing to do with the point of this thread. Where Christians are concerned, Christ did away with the law and that reality is quite applicable where this thread is concerned.
We are not talking about laws of any sort here, but we are talking about common decency, brotherly and neighborly love, and the basic responsibility that any landlord say no less a Christian landlord should exercise.
Regardless of what the law read, I wouldn't treat my CAT the way these inconsiderate, unloving NTCC landlords treated their brothers and sisters who rented dwelling places from them.
I do understand your point because it is legally valid, however a Christian is bound by the law of Christ not some state law that says you can let your tenants live in a dump and it is their problem not yours.
That is another classic example why I left the NTCC for good and now I spend time warning folks to stay clear of the NTCC because it is too full of abusive, double standard, inconsiderate people just like the people who rented out these broke-down dwelling places to their own brothers and sisters. They "should" be ashamed of themselves.
Jeff
The Sinners are closer to the Kingdom of Heaven than these so called NTCC Christians any day of the week.
Maybe because they always want to "Outdo" the Christian to prove a point???
Anonymous:
I am not sure if I understand your whole point but it is good to have you here.
Jeff.
Each and every state has tenant laws. And most states call it Renters Rights. If NTCC does not have you sign a rental agreement they can get out of some things. But not all tenant laws are binding souly on a contract. I never had to deal with NTCC when it came to my landlord being a slum lord but.. I did have to pull in renters rights a few times. I am amazed at the amount of people out there who know nothing of tenant laws and let their slumlords walk all over them!
And what is even more amazing ..well.. not really amazing more like.. STUPID(And I don't mean people who have or are letting NTCC walk all over them are stupid. I am meaning the amount of people who DO NOT KNOW their BIBLE! is STUPID!) is more like it. IS people allow NTCC to walk all over them and treat them like crap when it comes to housing situations all because they are afraid of what might happen. Well people....NTCC might try to use the "I'm a Christan so you have to do as I say" crap. But if you read in the BIBLE it says Christians are supposed to LOVE each other and treat each other well. Not treat each other like a pile of dog crap!
So all you NTCCers out there need to stop taking what anyone in NTCC says as fact and start READING your bible. And STOP leaving it at home. Take notes at church service and afterwards ASK the pastor for the locations in the bible that they gave. And then DO NOT just read the verse they gave. READ the ENTIRE chapter that verse is in!
I got real tired real fast of the Pastor quoting bible verses and either not giving their location or only saying half of the verse.
Or the fact that it seemed like hardley anyone ever brought their Bible to church.
THERE is NOTHING wrong with asking or even questioning what your Pastor or the Pastor has preached/taught on. And you are not "touching God's anointed" as Davis likes to scream. You are simply asking questions so you can better understand what is being said.
Never take anything anyone from NTCC says at face value EVEN THEIR PREACHING! 99.9% of the time they are lying or hiding something.
If you hear an NTCC Pastor talking crap about someone you know who has left NTCC and you know it is not true get off your BUTT and stand up for them! Don't let them continue to lie!
1 John 2:9 (NIV)Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
1 John 2:9 (KJV)He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
NTCCers keep in mind. A Christian Brother or Sister rather they attend NTCC or not is still your Brother or Sister in Christ. If you hate them...It is gonna suck to be you come judgement day!
Angie,
great post!!
I happened to be attending a Calvary Chapel after i 'got saved' because there was no ntcc in my area (praise God and his grace)
anyway, my Pastor at Calvary would stress over and over the need to bring your Bible to church and study your Bible on your own
when i visited the "Bible" school i attended a couple different churches and services and noticed that nobody had bibles except the "preacher"
i asked my relative about this not bringing your bible to church business and his response was
"it's a distraction to the preacher to have people flipping around in there bibles, they should be listening to the preacher"
it occured to me at that point that they are trying to HIDE something from the people!!!!
think of the obnoxious pride of believing that what you have to say is more important than the bible!!!
after doing much research on this cult and having many discussions with my relative i came to realize that the bible is only a tool to add authority to the peculiar doctrines that are taught and they really don't want people to know or understand the bible (somewhat like catholicism i suppose)
anyway.....that's all i have to say about that (my forest gump impression)
take care,
t
actually i do have more to say on this: : )
i have been teaching the Bible for 14 years now and ive come to the realization that many not all) "preachers" in the ntcc know the words that the Bible says but don't know the meaning of the words, becuase there understanding is skewed by this "holiness" foolishness
if you don't understand the biblical definition of 'holiness' then you wont understand the bible itself
kind of like looking at the sun but putting a quarter in front of you, if you keep focused on the quarter and bring it closer to your face it will eventually block out the sun
i think these peuliar doctrines have done just that, they have blocked out the 'son'
although many of these men can quote scripture with authority and know all the stories contained in the scripture, they stay focused on the 'quarter' of holiness and block out the son and have no real understanding of the heart of Jesus
it really is a shame, the blind leading the blind and their sheep will fall into the pit with them
t
T,
I grew up in church, was saved at a young age. Still bothers me a little bit that I ever got mixed up in NTCC. But.. one thing I can say with absolute certainty is...Every Pastor I have ever had growing up until now (except NTCC Pastors) does not seem to mind at all that you have your bible and are reading along with him while he is reading from his. Infact I recall most Pastors will tell you the location and pause long enough for you to find it before they go on.
This just happened at the church I attend right now ...on ...Sunday... Pastor said where he was going to be reading from... gave everyone time to find it... And then started reading.
We(my hubby and I) have a sony digital voice recorder that we use also. But usually we only use it when one of us is going to miss a service. So we still get to hear it. Our church doesn't have a way to record the services yet but they are planning on it. So people who are with children, etc. during service don't miss out on the preaching/teaching. And our Pastor keeps the voice recorder in his pocket for us. He has no problem doing that for us.
Also our Pastor welcomes comment, and questions if we have them after service. He not only welcomes it, he encourages it!
Well I need to get going. I have a ton of homework. I am persuing my Calling that NTCC told me wasn't of God because it didn't have me being a Pastors wife or nursery worker or cleaning someone's house. Which is a topic for another time.
God bless,
Angie
Hey Angie. Just wanted to say hello and let you know that we appreciate you taking the time to write all these good posts.
Obviously a blog is nothing without participants. In my opinion you've maintained a good spirit throughout your posts which makes it hard for the naysayers to find fault and claim that we are all just bitter. I'm much more hotheaded than you are, so having folks like you around here places a good balance on this blog.
Just wanted to let you know that your contribution is appreciated.
Jeff.
Jeff,
No problem I like to comment where I can. Sometimes I don't say anything because I either have nothing to say, can't think of the right thing to say, or I can't think of how to say it without it coming across as me still being mad since I'm not.
I always say "cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it" so I cried my river, built my bridge, and got over it" so to speak. Though the healing process is still on going. I know the Bible says Revenge is Mine sayeth the Lord. So I got over the wanting revenge real fast. And the Bible also says if you can not forgive others then God will not forgive you. So I had to forgive.
I also had a few people come to me and apolojize. Which I honestly think was and is a good thing that they did that. It helped tremendously. I know a lot of people who have left NTCC haven't had that apology that have been looking for. But I know that some of them wouldn't accept it anyways. I know others are going to be all butt hurt that someone apolojized to me but did not apolojize to them. I did not seek out this apology and that apology happened after the person had read things I had said on factnet well over 3 years ago. I accepted their apology and issued my own. I haven't posted over at factnet in so long. I don't even miss the place.
While I did apologize and accepted their apology I am not going to stop posting about my experiences. I know there are honest to goodness real Christians in NTCC but the bad things that happen totally over shadow the good that they do. And I honestly think that some Pastors want to do things differently but they have Davis, etc. breathing down their necks and so they are afraid to step out in faith and do them because they do not want to suffer the barage of attacks that will come their way if they do.
Whatever God has planned he has planned. I don't know his plans for NTCC. But I do pray for NTCC on a daily basis. That God will either open the eyes of those people to their evilness and help them to realize all the damage they have done so they can change things around or that he will drop such a bomb that NTCC will be exposed and forced to shut down. I know some people are like wow she prays for NTCC?!?!?!? God says to pray for your enemies.
Either way things that are hidden in darkness will be exposed to the light, either now with all these different blogs, factnet, support groups, etc. Or when those people face judgement day.
Well I need to get going. Hubby just made last minute plans for the morning and so I need to get off of here.
But I totally LOVE this blog. I'm sure I will post more later.
God bless,
Angie
T,
What aspects of holiness doctrine do you take issue with? Also, is it the doctrines themselves or the degree of emphasis? Also, what are you referring to as holiness? In the Bible God is holy and something is holy as it pertains to its relationship to/with him. In Arminian theology "holiness" relates to the doctrine of sanctification or degree of separateness. Most churches teach a separation from the world/culture but it is the degree and application that may vary. So, what is it you are referring to with NTCC?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
Ntcc minister,
It seems as if you are engaging in a typical ntcc tactic, which is to totally disregard the topic being discussed, and go off on a tangent to draw attention away from what is important. One's belief in "holiness" is not important here. What is important is why ntcc preachers continue to be abusive and manipulative, and why when credible people complain about such abuse, the leadership of ntcc ignores it and sweeps it under the rug.
Your so-called holiness is made void by such behavior, as the apostle Paul explained to us in the Epistles--(Romans 2:14-29). He explained that the Jews circumcision was made void when they did not obey God's word, and that the Gentiles lack of circumcision did not matter when they obeyed the law, thought they didn't have the Law. The teaching of Paul was that your holiness and superior Christianity means nothing when you are doing acts which contradict that holiness. And when "sinners" have more compassion, love and basic decency to their fellow man than so-called Christians, then their lack of holiness is counted higher than your outward holiness. The actions of abusive preachers in ntcc give God a bad name, and God is not pleased. They need to repent and apologize to everyone they have hurt, so as to bring glory to God. But, they will not do it, because they are proud and think they are better than everyone else. And God said he will destroy the proud. They are like Paul "before" his conversion-- who hurt and killed people, thinking he was pleasing God. Paul (Saul) did that because his spirit was a spirit of hatred, just as ntcc leaders hate those who left them-- even if what they are saying is the truth.
And speaking of pride-- why do you sign your name as Ntcc minister, B.S., M.A.? What are you trying to say? That somehow you are better qualified to speak on behalf of ntcc?
Minister,
(btw, good points on the previous post Casey,
The Bible definition of holiness is simply 'separated for God's use'...so the meaning is somewhat vague(i believe intentionally) and ultimately comes down to a matter of being ever increasingly separated to God in the person's heart.
When the Lord used circumcision as a type of separation for the Jewish believer it ultimately did nothing for the Jew other than corrupt him thru self-deceit and a superiority complex.
all this time Christians have been trying to "pin-down" some outward style, mannerism, appearance, occupation, hobby etc...... as a form of or lack of holiness, when ultimately Jesus simply desires our hearts separated unto him
as Paul put it: some people could eat meat sacrificed to Idols while others couldn't even consider that a christian would ever do such a thing
I believe our corrupt nature desperately desires to find something we can do to ensure acceptance by God and thus we wont have to "guard our hearts with all diligence"
so its not so much the actual tag line per se, like "no shorts" or "no fingernail polish" it's the fact that another man is demanding that his interpretation of what Holiness looks like to God is accepted as Bible doctrine, which, unless it is explicitly taught in the scripture we have no right as Bible teachers to lay such a burden on anyone
ie: i can with biblical authority say "God does not want you to be fornicating" and i can back that up explicitly from scripture, now if people choose to fornicate then you have to follow up with bible in how to deal with that person- which is not screaming at them that "your not saved"
actually Minister, could you tell me the proper biblical response to finding that someone is fornicating in your assembly?
i will be looking forward to your response
a real life example that i encountered as a young christian at my church:
i had been attending for a few years and had grown close with the assistant pastor. One day i asked him about another brother who had let his hair grow long and wore it in a ponytail. i said "whats the deal with him, you think he is saved?"
his pastoral response was: "i personally find it to be repugnant, but the Bible does not call it sin, it says it is a shame to him, and that is a personal issue between him and God, give him space for god to speak to him on it"
well, i watched and about 5 years later he cut his hair down shorter than mine and 2 years after that he became an elder.....did the lord deal with him on that issue, i believe he did...and in like manner he is able to deal with all of his children
too often we act like typical brothers and sisters trying to control what our siblings are doing and trying to control what they do, anyone who has children can totally relate to what im saying im sure
sorry for the long response
sincerely,
T
somehow my son in law did not sign out when he used my computer, now its referring to me as "joshua"
its just me, t
btw Casey, i think Mr Minister is better qualified to speak on behalf of ntcc, at least we don't know him to be a crooked, greedy, back stabbing politician/minister
I look forward to his posts and find them to be engaging and thoughtfull, even though i don't agree with some of his positions
t
he is a far cry from the typical un-educated ntcc defender who simply just quotes the same sorry old lines that his brain has been washed with for years-
im sure you would all agree with that : )
t
I agree with Joshua, I mean t. Ha, ha.
Whats up t? Just joking around my friend. I do agree with your assessment about NTCC Minister. He is an alright guy. Whats funny is that we have been in communication with NTCC Minister for a while now and strangely enough, I've kind of grown accustom to having him around and I'm being sincere. I don't always agree with him either but he continues to write to us exNTCCers and we write back and it generally remains cordial.
I do however completely agree with Casey's assessment about the holiness issue and yours as well. The NTCC overdoes it with this outward appearance business and they constantly break their own rules concerning modesty. NTCC folks have done as poor a job at keeping the law as the Jews did.
NTCC women were told that they couldn't wear jewelry so they started getting more finger rings and broaches because they felt like those items were exceptions to the rule. My wife actually was told by an NTCC pastor that jewelery worn on the clothing was not considered jewelry and broaches weren't considered jewelry because they were fake. His explanation was fake and certainly not Bible based. He would buy his wife a ring and say that it was the engagement ring that he couldn't afford before and she would wear both engagement rings because they considered this a loop hold in the rule.
Many NTCC women wear pants for exercising because they think that exercising is the exception to what they consider Gods rule.
We all know the Grant Kekel story where he gets to wear "LONG" shorts and tight pants and the NTCC has made an exception there because Grant is Mike Kekels son and because they are football pants and not regular pants. Can you say double standard because that is exactly what it is without doubt. One very prominent sister wears makeup because she has skin problems. The NTCC can't even keep their own man made laws but they have been sending people to hell for failing to do so for about 35, 40 years.
NTCC Minister don't you see that. What I'm saying is not a lie.
Jeff Collins
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
What does BS stand for? It reminds me of an acroymn of you know what!!
Have you seen Joshua Card? is he still in NTCC??
MLJ
T,
In response to your direct question about a fornicator in the church.
Matthew 18:15-17
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. [16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. [17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
1 Cor. 5:9-13
I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: [10] Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. [11] But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. [12] For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? [13] But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
The issue of church discipline is a interesting one today. With how large many churches are today it is easy for people to get lost in the crowd and never enter in to relationships of accountability within the church. Second, with so many churches in every town it is easier for people to go find a church that makes them "feel good" than to go through the difficult process of repentance.
In Paul's day, as you well know T, the church practiced "love feasts" on a weekly basis. They kept communion with an actual feast. (A potluck every Sunday!!! Woohoo!!!) This was a special and meaningful act of worship. To be ostracized from the only Christian community you had would be an extreme form of discipline.
It is note worthy that Paul's applies the higher standard to someone professing to be a Christian and not those outside of the church.
Casey,
When I first began posting Brian Pelfry told me not to take harsh responses personally because people are not use to be taken seriously by those within NTCC and they are using alot of emotion when they post. You were a teacher of mine in Bible School and I held a lot of respect for you then and still do. I have been reading your psots with interest. I too have earned the sleeping on the floor badge along with the raid my retirement savings badge (2 oak leaf clusters). I do not minimize your sacrifice or experience.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
PS. MLJ, are you the one who post as Brother Johnson? Or are you different posters?
Mr. Minister,
I know I can't speak for everyone, but alot of people I have talked to do not have a problem with "holiness" standards. They have a problem with abuse being promoted in the name of holiness, which taints the whole doctrine.
Think about it, I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where Jesus abused his followers. However, I do recall in the Bible where the followers of false gods, or the devil himself suffered abuse by leaders or abused themselves.
I am not saying NTCC is inherently evil, because I don't know the hearts of men. However, I do not think God have ever endorsed abuse.
...and yes I know I am holding my breath believing that NTCC will change for the better, but I am still...
Waiting to Exhale
Waiting to Exhale,
I appreciate your view. Not all share it. I was responding to T's statement
"i have been teaching the Bible for 14 years now and ive come to the realization that many not all) "preachers" in the ntcc know the words that the Bible says but don't know the meaning of the words, becuase there understanding is skewed by this "holiness" foolishness
if you don't understand the biblical definition of 'holiness' then you wont understand the bible itself
kind of like looking at the sun but putting a quarter in front of you, if you keep focused on the quarter and bring it closer to your face it will eventually block out the sun
i think these peuliar doctrines have done just that, they have blocked out the 'son'"
NTCC Minister BS, MA
NTCC Minister BS, MA said…
i think these peuliar doctrines have done just that, they have blocked out the 'son'"
LTravis said…
Great comment, not only have they blocked out the son, they have destroyed many people in the process.
If you want to discuss the issue of Holiness and who is right or wrong. Let us ponder here...
Holiness means uniqueness. Holiness means belonging to God. Holiness means living with God. Holiness means being a light. The holy person(s) in the Bible are one who has had a line of definition drawn around them consecrating themselves, and all they are and do, to the purposes of God. How that works out within one's personal life today is a matter of individual conscience.
I've never seen anywhere in the bible where it specifically states how you dress reflects holiness. Because it doesn't.
I personally feel a woman who is truely saved in time with the help of the Lord will (if they didn't before) start to dress modestly on their own. I do not think it makes a difference if your wearing a skirt/dress or sweats/pants. I have heard the arguments for both and I think they are both stupid. Modesty is more then the way a person dresses, it is also in a way a person acts. A real woman of God won't dress in a slutty way even when wearing pants. She won't flaunt herself in a slutty way when wearing pants.
And anyone with a brain knows that it doesn't make a difference to a guy if a woman is wearing a dress/skirt to her ankles and a modest top or if she is wearing pants and a modest top. If I guy is going to get all dare I say it horney and lustful it is his own darn fault.
My husband thought I was hot looking the day he met me and that was over 16 years ago and I am a tiny woman. And I was wearing a sweat suit that was super baggy on me and in my eyes was pretty darn modest. Sweat shirt, sweat pants. Covered everything but my face, neck, hands, and feet and wasn't tight at all. You couldn't see my figure for nothing. And yet my husband to this day tells me he thinks I am hot looking in a sweat shirt and a pair sweat pants.
I dress pretty modest. And I don't wear skirts and dresses very often any more (thank you NTCC for making me hate them so much!). I am bothered by women that wear tight clothing but I do notice one difference.
Christian women dress to where they are not going to purposely cause a man to lust after them.
And again I will say this. If a man is going to get horney/lust after a woman it doesn't matter one bit what she is wearing. If a guy is gonna lust he is gonna lust no matter how a woman is dressed. Unless his heart is right with God. Then it won't matter what the woman is wearing. Especially a married man who is right with God. He won't lust after anyone but his wife. Same goes for women. If a woman is right with God she won't lust after anyone but her husband. And single men who are right with God tend to not really pay attention to how a woman is dressed. They are looking for godly traits not the other way around. And same with single women. They are looking for godly traits in a man not his looks. I sure didn't marry my husband because I was lusting after him and thought he was "sexy" though he is "sexy" to me. I don't see other men and be all *drool* because I have my husband and my needs are satisfied. I was looking for godly traits. I wasn't looking for bodily traits.
Still want to know why NTCC is against men wearing shorts. There is not a darn thing to me that is sexy about a man and his hairy legs to me. No matter how muscular they are. If its all about how a guy sits and what someone can see if their sick butt happens to look up inside the legs of the shorts then just don't wear shorts that go above your knees and your good!
Anyone who wastes their time ranting and raving about dressing modestly (dresses, skirts, etc, pants) in my eyes is a pervert and is trying to prevent themselves from lusting. Well we all know that it won't stop someone from lusting no matter how someone is dressed. You could be walking around with a potato bag for a dress on and some guy/girl is still gonna lust if they are not right with God.
Idaho Angie,
When I refer to "holiness" standards, I mean it in a way of observing a denominational ordinance.
WTE
Mr. Minister,
Thank you for your response regarding church discipline, you are right on as far as how people now can just up and leave and move on to another church. I really don't think the size of the church matters all that much personally because i have been in churches that were tiny and the Pastor didn't have the back bone to confront people and i have been in churches that are huge and the Pastor did have the backbone and the differences between the churches was exponential. i must say though, that my pastor now has backbone but in now way is trying to 'run people off' but is 'speaking the truth in love' and has that person's best interest at heart
one thing i must say:
It has occurred to me that i may sound harsh in regards to my comments about the holiness doctrines that are taught at ntcc
while what i write is my true opinion regarding these 'standards' i in no way am meaning to offend people who have been taught that these are true biblical teaching's and truly believe that a christian must hold to them
my whole point isn't to be offensive but get to the base of how the manipulation and abuse is 'pulled off' by these men who are called shepherds
i truly believe that these 'standards' are the jumping off point for the spiritual manipulation that has so many in ntcc in bondage
i have noticed that those who leave ntcc are usually convinced in regards to 1 or 2 teachings not being biblical, then the whole thing tumbles in there minds like a house of cards.
i find that to be interesting....it would seem to me that these "standards" are the primary tool used to manipulate God's sheep
think of it for a moment, IF ntcc had no 'holiness' standards what would they have to offer as a church?
.............................hmmmm,
now think of it for a moment: if a church was not bogged down with these pretenses from the beginning, how much more would they have to offer as a church?
just something to ponder
sincerely,
t
NTCC minister,
I'm sorry if I sounded like I was being harsh with you, but that wasn't my intention. When I wrote that I was thinking more in the lines of getting you to "think" about things. As you know, I'm not the harsh type. Well, that's the problem with e-mail- you don't get the tone of a person. If we were sitting together at Starbucks the conversation would be much more enjoyable. :)
There is some correlation between holiness and outward appearance. That’s between you and God. I believe modesty is sufficient for both men and women. The ntcc throws the holiness card around to guilt trip people and put man back in bondage. That is their way to control you. I believe holiness is having a sincere relationship with God. Everyone knows gluttony is a sin and let me tell you there are many in the ntcc that are guilty of that one. The point I’m making is if you break one letter of the law you are guilty of all. That’s why man doesn’t live under the law. NTCC minister, surely you see the abusive nature of your organization.
NTCC Minister said...
It is note worthy that Paul's applies the higher standard to someone professing to be a Christian and not those outside of the church.
Jeff said...
NTCC minister; that is exactly what I ALWAYS say about the NTCC and that is why I have such a problem with the NTCC. I generally like outright sinners who leave people alone more than I like a hypocritical, abusive, double standard practicing NTCC person who compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Mat 23:15
That is the way I see many, many NTCC pastors. You go soul winning till your feet are sore just to have the local NTCC pastor unwisely and abusively run the person off that you invited to church. Then what even makes it worse is often, that person develops an extremely poor opinion of churches altogether because of the actions of one abusive, insensitive, inconsiderate pastor.
It happens constantly in the NTCC and I know that for sure because I've seen it happen over and over in NTCC church after church after church.
Jeff Collins.
Casey Hayes said...
I'm sorry if I sounded like I was being harsh with you, but that wasn't my intention.
Jeff said....
Casey: Everyone who knows you understands that you are anything but the harsh type. I on the other hand, have the propensity to act harshly because it is in my nature and I recognize that, and I am trying to suppress that tendency that I do in fact have.
Once again Casey and speaking on your behalf, you are certainly not a harsh individual.
Anyone who knows you knows that.
Jeff.
I want to reiterate once again Mr. NTCC Minister: I sincerely appreciate you coming on this blog and engaging in some good dialogue here.
I truly believe that the NTCC would be a whole lot better off with more ministers like you in their organization.
Whether I agree with all your views or not, you have shown a "level" of decency that I didn't often see while I was in the NTCC and I appreciate your presents on this blog.
I've stated this before that I don't like the fact that Mike Kekel has decided to censor his blog by acting as a moderator. Mike Kekel is not making any attempt to publish the truth when he only allows one side of the story to be published. That is communism all the way and that is no exaggeration. I wish more decent NTCC folks would take the liberty to engage in diologue on this blog. Debate can often be a good thing if it is done respectfully. I don't like someone playing games with me though and I have no problem pulling the trigger when that happens.
I understand the desire to not have things turn ugly but I can confidently say that folks around this blog have treated you with respect and if there was a breach in respect we have showed enough decency to set the record straight with you Sir. You are certainly welcome here or at my dinner table. I may not claim to some great Christian because I hardly fall in that category, but I do claim to be real and I do see the importance of treating folks the way that I would want to be treated. You've shown yourself friendly and I see you as a friend here.
Of course you know Mr. Minister that I do stand by my convictions and my statements and I make no apologies for that fact.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Jeff Collins
I think the reason why most folks are upset with NTCC is that we were all exposed to a standard and expected to maintain that standard, and the folks in charge have changed the standard, only recently.
To be fair, Being out of the NTCC for over four years now, I have not been exposed to the so called compromises.
However, If wearing pants to church is going to get someone so bent out of shape, then maybe that is a church one does not need to be associated with.
Any infrigment upon a liberty we are entitled to goes against the grind with our US Constitution (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness).
If you look at pictures of how people used to dress 100 years ago you would be shocked. Men wore suits and hats. Women wore dresses and bonnets.
As we as a society became educated, may be our moral fabric started to unweave. I can see how NTCC desires to revert back 100 years ago. Women were subservant to men. Men were the rulers of the house. Women stayed home and took care of the family.
Just something to think about. I believe NTCC had good intentions but somewhere along the way went astray from THEIR right path. The path that THEY chose to follow, not nessesarily Biblical. By attending multiple NTCC services, we in theory agreed to submit to THEIR standards. If we are upset, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
MLJ
MLJ,
I suppose the Pharisees had good intentions also. They were so concerned about obeying the law that they added minute details to obey. But, Jesus didn't compliment them, but rather rebuked them for adding burdens on people that were hard to bear. (I'm not getting on your case, just pointing something out). The leaders of ntcc act exactly like the Pharisees.
As for us voluntarily attending ntcc-- it is true. But, you also have to consider the psychological manipulation involved. Many of us were young (18-24), didn't know anything about God or the Bible, and wanted to do the right thing. When the leaders of ntcc told us that if we didn't do it "their way" we would go to hell; or if we didn't obey "their rules" 100%, or we were sinning against God-- we believed them. It took years to finally see the light, and realize that what we were being taught at ntcc was NOT really Biblical, or what God really intended. Just as the Pharisees had the masses fooled (though they were regarded as hypocrites), so ntcc has fooled many (and they also are hypocrites). So technically, yes we willingly went to church at ntcc, but it was ingrained in us that to leave them was to leave God Himself. It's a cult tactic and a big LIE!
I totally agree with you there Casey!
We could have decided not to go once we were invited.
I will admit I didn't and still do not dislike everything about NTCC. I just know that we have freedom in Jesus. And I didn't feel like I had much freedom in Jesus when it came to a lot of the things that are forced upon people in NTCC.
Knowing I have freedom in Jesus to worship him in my own special way and not having to follow some man made rules or be yelled(seen it happen at the Graham compound right before I quit attending) at for worshipping in my own way.
I have to comment on what I just said. A lovely, caring, sweet lady that attended the NTCC compound would really get into her worship and stand up and clap and dance a little and one day Davis tore her up one side and down the other. Without saying her name (And she was in the service). He basically said that if no one else was feeling the move of the spirit the same way that someone should not be doing what no one else is doing. Hello God moves in the hearts and lives of everyone differently! We all worship him differently! Sometimes I want to dance, sometimes I don't. I could care less if everyone else is or is not dancing. I love to watch other people worship in their own ways. It speaks to me that they are not letting man hender their worship. They are answering the call of their spirit to worship. Who cares if anyone else is or is not doing the same thing? Sometimes watching someone else dance is uplifting to your spirit. I see people dancing and it warms my heart to know that they love God so much that they would dance before him! Why let a man tell them to stop? I would have kept right on dancing. Who is Davis to tell someone how the spirit of God is moving in their life?
Who are we to stop the move of the spirit of God in our lives or others lives based on how we feel things should be done? If you feel like dancing and no one else is dancing for heavens sake DANCE! If someone doesn't like it, too bad! They are not you! They don't know what God is doing in your life! Worship God how you want to worship God! I sure as heck am not going to stop you! Personal worship of God is the best form of worship in my opinion. If you want to raise your hands, raise your hands! If you want to dance, DANCE! If you want to kneel, kneel. Just because no one else is doing it doesn't mean God won't be delighted by it if you do it. God loves our worship. He doesn't care how we do it. As long as we do it!
When the spirit of the Lord moves in my heart I will sing like David sang. When the spirit of the Lord moves in my heart I will dance like David danced. When the spirit of the Lord moves in my heart I will pray like David prayed!
Hope you all have a blessed day in the Lord!
Angie
Angie,
I think I was in that service- what year was that? On the flip side, I have been in many, many services where I felt strongly God wanted a quiet service, but the preacher was doing his best to jack us all up for not having a fast service. In ntcc alot of people get church fatigue, because they want every service to be fast, whether God wants it or not. Every service becomes a clone of the one before. It really tends to burn people out and turn church into a "show" rather than a "service".
Casey,
I could be wrong but I do believe it happened sometime in 2005 I know it was between Jan and Sept 2005. I leftntcc and moved out of state the last week in Sept 2005 so....had to be in that year sometime.
And also yes I do agree with you on the lack of quiet services, where God just wants people to relax in the presence of the Lord. Davis doesn't like to let God move that is for darn sure! If God was allowed to move then things would happen that would cause Davis' underpants to get in a bind! I would love to see God be allowed to freely move within NTCC. But I can't even bring myself to walk on any NTCC property when I am near one so I guess I'll just keep praying!
Angie
"In ntcc alot of people get church fatigue, because they want every service to be fast, whether God wants it or not"
Then I had church burnout years before I left NTCC!!!
MLJ
IF I was a preacher at NTCC (which I did desire to be at one time with the right and pure intentions)
I would preach the Bible. Most of the time the Holy Ghost will do the preaching if the pastor is in touch with God and God anoints the service with His unction. Not every service has to be fire and brimstone or silent. If the preacher has done his homework, he will let the Holy Spirit set the tone.
I would always tie in that Christ died for our sins. The reason why I state this is that I have been to many service in which Christ was not preached. I would wonder "Why am I at Church"??
I would ALWAYS have an alter call. I would not guilt trip folks to come to the alter, as you can get saved anywhere.
Some preachers like to drag on services for hours, that is ridculous. Keep a time limit and stick to it!!
Also have empathy, that helps.
MLJ
MLJ
G Campbell Morgan, known as "the prince of expositors" when asked what the key to great, spirit inspired Bible teaching is, answered
"1% inspiration and 99% perspiration"
ive noticed that a lot of ntcc preachers not only fall back on the foolish idea of preaching, ie: screaming, personal attacks, long drawn out altar calls etc....
but most want to be able to rightly divide the word of truth but are so busy that they don't have the proper time to study the text and then have to fall back on these tactics, which ultimately people will realize "this guy doesnt know the bible any better than me" and move along to a better church
its sad, but i have asked certain preachers an hour before their servece "what are you preaching on?" and they respond with "im not sure yet"
at that point its too late, they have to fall back on the learned antics
its really shamefull
sincerely,
t
for the record:
the shame isnt so much on the preacher but upon the organizations system that does not allow enough time for study or preparation
t
There were many "church" services that there was no preaching done at all.
I would go to church only to listen to people being jacked up from the pulpit.
Sorry but when I go to church (and am not teaching the children) I like to hear the Word of God being preached/taught. I don't go to hear people being jacked up.
I left many services disappointed.
Doesn't help that when they did preach all they did was basically preach the same stupid message over and over just worded differently.
It got stale the moldy just like a loaf of bad bread.
It sucked.
Angie
ooooooohhhhhhhhh nnnnnooooo.....you said a "bad word"
now the ntcc pharisees are going to tell you your not saved!!!
just wait!!
:)
t
Oh my GOSH! I said SUCKED!!!
You know the only people that take offense to that word are people who have their mind in the gutter?
So if they are offended it shows you where their mind is at. Considering it isn't a bad word and I wasn't even eluding to a specific action. Which I think is gross anyways.
Yea in NTCC my Pastors wife did not like the fact that I had a "satan sucks" sticker on my car.
So to all you who might get offended at the word SUCK(s,ed,ing) get your head out of the gutter that is NOT what I ment at all in the slightest! And that is not what the word means in the first place..
Ok now I am gonna go raid the candy jar and have a sucker!
And get a can of Pepsi out and suck it out with a straw!
Sorry had to make the pepsi comment. I think its halarious. Considering Pepsi is my soda of choice!
Pepsi!!??
Wow Angie you really took a leap for the dark side after leaving NTCC lol
WTE
lol! I have always liked Pepsi.
OOh come to the dark side!!! WE HAVE COOKIES TOO!!!
when i told my relative i had changed my mind about going to bible school and would be attending another church he said i "had a pepsi with the devil"
angie, im sure you didnt realize that was satans beverage of choice as well
i have been drinking coca-cola products ever since, in order to relieve that terrible burden of guilt
t
Jeff,
One thing I forgot to mention. The Pastor and even sometimes the women in the kids classes (I'm sure the Pastor put them up to it) would go behind my back and ask my kids if I was doing this or that. Of course my kids told me that so and so asked them this or that. I was livid. If you want to know what the heck I am doing just ask me! I got nothing to hide!
Another time a friend was in the middle of divorcing her husband and she had been attending the NTCC I was. No one could find her and assumed that because I was friends with her that she was staying with me. Which wasn't the case. She didn't want me to know where she was staying and I didn't want to know simply because we didn't want NTCC people bugging her. But she sure wasn't staying with me. But you know what they did? They went and asked my kids if she was staying with me. Instead of just asking me.
There was another time when a sister who at the time did not have children, but worked in the childrens classes, She used to keep a wooden spoon with her. I happened to over hear her saying she doesn't hit the kids she just treatens them. Lets just say I put an end to that real fast. No one but me and my husband have a right to do any sort of threatening or disciplining of our kids. I pitched a big fit about her having this wooden spoon to the Pastor. I never saw it again after that. I am glad he got on her about it because if he hadn't I would have been on her like a pitbull on a steak. She has a kid of her own now. I wonder what she would do if someone outside her family threatened her kid with a wooden spoon if they were misbehaving? She made a rude comment to me once. A sister was pregnant and the ladies got together to throw her a baby shower. And I got her something she really wanted because I knew she would need it because she was going to be breastfeeding. And this other "spoon weilding" sister made a rude comment to me that I was just trying to show off the fact that I had money. Which was not the case. (what I got the other sister I got a deal on. I didn't even pay close to what the normal asking price was. I'm always looking for a deal when I shop) When I am able to bless someone I do. I am not trying to show off anything. I don't always have extra money. Sometimes I give my own personal belongings to people if I see a need. That was the last straw there with her, she really hurt my feelings when she said that. But ya that sister worked in the nursery and was always trying to tell us mothers how to be mothers when at the time she didn't even have any kids of her own. And oh my gosh was she rude to almost everyone who didn't kiss her butt.
T,
Actually if you really want to say satan has a beverage of choice. I would have to say his started and probably still is with Coke. Since Coca Cola was originally made with the now illegal drug coke(yes that is fact, research it if you like).
I stopped drinking coke a long time ago for a number of reasons. One being it tastes like watered down pancake syrup to me. Two being that if you take a can of pepsi and a can of coke and fill a glass with each one and drop in a slice of baloney.. In the morning the meat that was put in the glass of coke is gone. My Dad actually uses coke to clean car parts. The acid eats the junk away. Though both are I am sure equally bad for you. Which is why I do not drink much soda in the first place.
I honestly think the devils drink of choice is blood since that is what he is always going after. As it seems Davis and all his clones are as well.
NTCC might as well start using the Star Trek borg saying and have a sign with the slogan "You will be assimilated! Resistance is futile." Then all of us who have left NTCC can say we are like 7 of 9. We made it out of the borg collective (sorry I am slightly geeky after all I am married to a nerd LOL).
Have to throw some humor in there. I choose to look up and not live in the past. I still remember it but I don't brood on it. I have better things to do with my time then make myself angry over and over again over the mistake otherwise known as NTCC.
bah I responded to this blog and the other blog in one spot.. Gez..
Angie,
"You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile". I LOVE IT!! lol
Angie,
that wooden spoon thing,may have come from Tanya K. I went to her once for advice. On how to get my child to mind. And she said use a wooden spoon instead of the hand. So they don't see your hand as an extension of you.
That was one of only two times I went to her for help. I really disliked how her and Verna brushed folks off. You could be standing there talking to them. And they would start walking away as your talking to them. So Rude!
CM
Idaho Angie,
Hello! You stated previously
"A sister was pregnant and the ladies got together to throw her a baby shower. And I got her something she really wanted because I knew she would need it because she was going to be breastfeeding".
Do you know what really turned my wife against NTCC? Outside of the preaching abuse and verbal abuse from Hanna at Korea at the time it was THE SISTERS at Junction City, KS.
Had those sisters showed AN OUNCE of care towards my wife (foreign wife from Korea in a new place) she would have been more open to continual attendance at NTCC.
What turned my wife off??
Partly because they (Junction City NTCC Sisters) were jealous that my wife was more beautiful than ALL of them combined, as she is an exotic Asian beauty, and I am not saying that just because she is my wife
Partly because they were jealous that I was the only guy who did not deploy to Iraq at the time while their husbands had deployed at the same time (not my fault if my number was not called).
So these so called sisters had their cliques. My wife is pregnant with our second child. Get this - during my wife'
s so called baby shower she received gifts THAT WERE USED. Little baby shoes WERE USED.
So what they basically implied is that they view us as Trash. The Dump is where you throw your trash away, right??
My family is not Trash nor a dump, Sisters of NTCC. If you do not want your trash, why did you think we would want it??
Typical NTCC: Trash in, Trash out.
Bro Johnson
Casey Hayes,
I remember one time Pastor Davis shared that the organization deposited $2,000 a month for the missionaries working overseas. This dollar amount was given to them upon their return stateside, As long as they were still in good standing. He stated the purpose for this was so that they could buy a car, or whatever they needed to regroup. Did you receive any cash upon your return?
Bro Johnson said...
Get this - during my wife's so called baby shower she received gifts THAT WERE USED. Little baby shoes WERE USED.
Jeff said...
Hey Bro Johnson: Did they give you guys any used diapers? Man when I thought about it that cracked me up. I asked my wife what she thought and she felt that they would have probably been better off not bring anything. It's not like me or my kids are too good for used clothing but a baby shower is supposed to be pretty special. For your wife to open up some little shoes where the sole is a little scuffed up and the white is not quite white any longer does not create a very special occasion. It's almost so strange that it is kind of funny but really it's sad.
Jeff
Bro Johnson,
Those ladies are Rednecks. Giving old,used items as a gift. Baby gifts don;t have to cost much. Go to Target and check clearance racks. You can find a nice,NEW gift for a sister in the Lord. Those ladies are so tacky,makes my stomach sick. Yes it really is trash in and trash out. If you came in to ntcc a redneck with bad manners. Putting on a nice dress,ugle poofy hair duo,and matching purse. Which by the way,fashion no-no! All those ladies did was cover up there true ugliness. And it always shine's through who you really are. Guess Jesus did not clean up there inside's. Rw favorite saying,get saved,Jesus cleans up the inside and we will clean up the outside(wearing long dresses,and those ugle Hawaiin shirts the men wore) sorry,those baggy shirts are ugle!
I can only hope that many folks will reap what they sow. How they have treated others it will come back on them!
CM
Anonymous said...
I remember one time Pastor Davis shared that the organization deposited $2,000 a month for the missionaries working overseas. This dollar amount was given to them upon their return stateside, As long as they were still in good standing. He stated the purpose for this was so that they could buy a car, or whatever they needed to regroup. Did you receive any cash upon your return?
Jeff said...
Lets see here? Go oversees for two or three years, spend a substantial portion of, if not all of your own money to the degree of 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 thousand dollars just to get started. Spend more of your own money for moving expenses and to buy a junkie car oversees with your own money outside of a little chump change that the NTCC sends you, sell everything imaginable prior to your departure such as vehicles and in Casey's case a house.
So the NTCC may very well give just $2000 dollars to a minister upon his return from oversees. $2000 a month? They may get $2000 one time. What in the world does $2000 buy this day in age? Pay the rent on one of RWD houses or rent from someone else? Buy another thoroughly junkie car? $2000 could get eaten up in a week or even a day easily by someone returning back to the states just on basic necessities just to get back started all over again. I know as well as anyone. I did it on 5 different occasions in the military.
The reason that I went through all that is because I would hope that no one would think that $2000 was even remotely generous especially after so many NTCC ministers spend thousands and thousands of their own money just attempting to get started not only the oversees but the stateside works. I know this is true because I have heard this from too many NTCC ministers some of which are still in the NTCC.
Jeff
Bro. Johnson,
I am sorry that your wife got used baby shower gifts. I went to the church in JC and thought the sisters were "clique-y" but nice. When I was there, we wanted to have a baby shower and the pastor at the time said baby showers were carnal and did not allow it. Perhaps you received used items because they (the sisters)were under pressure.
...BTW brother for you to say that they were jealous of your wife's beauty... is a little catty and far fetched... comments like that is what destroys ex-NTCC-ers credibility
Nellashara
Not at all farfetched, anon.
You probably haven't noticed how rwd and kekel's wives have behaved when some other preachers wife is better dressed then they are. They will "check her out" and not even will acknowledge her because she had the audacity of outstagging them, you probably will be in conference and just watch and learn: this kind of behaviour is not at all foreign to ntcc because they all do it. If a sister looses weight and looks nice they will just ostrize her and will make comments about how she is so vain and that "the fat belongs to the Lord" etc, etc.
Anon,
I won't be at conference this year, and I haven't been to NTCC in years . Deployed, moved, blah, blah. I live waaaay out in the sticks, and the husband likes it that way. Just because I disagree, doesn't make me a member of the org... makes me human with a brain.
I just think complaining about gifts... and the sisters being called jealous(because I know them)is a little extreme and middle school.
Ns
A word about this $2,000 a month deposited for the missionaries overseas...This $2.000 is split up between all the missionaries overseas. They get $200 each, each month. I assume that a husband and wife team gets $400. As Jeff says this is not much.
This is $2,400 a year. After 10 years you have $24,000. But, when you get back to the U.S. you have to buy a car, furniture, clothes, first and lasts months rent deposit, any health care needs you have neglected, etc. It would be gone the first 6 months.
Of course Tanya may give you some old sheets, and other sisters may give you old clothes for you and your children.
A word about Tanya giving advice. Tanya and Verna both give advice, in spite of the fact Pastor Davis always tells the sisters not to give advice, as they are not the Pastor.
Oh well, by this time revealed hypocrisy is the characteristic du jour for NTCC, no one is surprised; different instances are pointed out so often it is not news or even very noteworthy. But, repetition is a good teacher. After 6 years of online examination, new charges are still being brought against NTCC.
pdq
Anon,
I won't be at conference this year, and I haven't been to NTCC in years . Deployed, moved, blah, blah. I live waaaay out in the sticks, and the husband likes it that way. Just because I disagree, doesn't make me a member of the org... makes me human with a brain.
I just think complaining about gifts... and the sisters being called jealous(because I know them)is a little extreme and middle school
Said by NS
The whole point was how rude these ladies were. to bring USED items to a babyshower. If you did not have time to buy a gift. Put ten bucks in a card and give it to the Mom. It had to be a nasty spirit behind it all. To be so rude.
You can disagree all you want. many of us that have been in ntcc. Do see things alot differently. You can tell when people are jealous and do not like you.
Tanya does give ladies the once over. Once she started standing by the front entranceEVERYTIME I walked in for Church. She would look me up and down. Checking my outfit out. I thought I was supposed to meet her approval. AS IF I needed her approval. She was the hoochie Mama,tight cloths. So tight she could not even raise her hands to pray,and she had to scuffled to walk because her skirts was so tight. If she wants to dress that way,so be it. But there classes on how a PW is to dress. Was Black,white and offwhite Dresses and skirts. Did Verna or Tanya wear just those cloths???? NO WAY! In they walked in with dark purple,lime green and many vibrant colors. DOUBle STANARDS!!!
Folks can tell when people are being standoffish,rude to them.
CM
Nellashara, you stated,
...BTW brother for you to say that they were jealous of your wife's beauty... is a little catty and far fetched... comments like that is what destroys ex-NTCC-ers credibility
I have to say, with the upmost respect, that I am telling the truth. I married a MOST beautiful Korean women, and I am not saying that just because she is my wife.
It is one thing to marry, as I would say, one of your own ethnic group (white and white). It is another thing to marry outside your ethnic group (white and black). I trumped all of that. I married a different race altogether (Asian).
Asian women are beautiful people. Any brother in or out of NTCC can tell you that and would agree whole heartedly.
They maintain a clean diet, stay away from sweets, and for the most part are not fat but display good body tone. Plus they have GREAT legs!! Most women have long hair, which only enhances their feminine nature.
I, however, got the cream of the crop. My wife is high class, and I am not saying that to be snotty.
She is high class with God. The only thing that trumps her outer beauty is her inner beauty, which is devine.
Our children are rather unique. They are, simply beautiful. Both boys and one girl. We really produced some Korean - American Kens and one Barbie.
Daniel is ahead of his class in reading, writing, 'rithmetic. he wants to be President when he grows up. Really. I am not making this up. He is the brightest boy in his class. Plus he is trilingual. He speaks English, Korean, and Spanish. He is already set for life. And he is only six.
Joseph wants to be a NASA astronaut and fly in the first U.S. manned mission to Mars. He is not even three yet.
Charity's desire is to be a professional singer and a Doctor. She is exotic. Trust me. If you saw a picture of her you would have thought you were looking at a high class model.
Did my children wake up one day and decided what they were going to do with their life? No. I mearly planted the seed. They took my advice and ran with it. I planted, others will water, and God will give the increase.
We get bombarded with compliments on our children all of the time. In fact, it got embarrasing at NTCC while we were at Junction City due to all the attention Daniel recieved from everyone.
With God, dreams do come true. I am living proof. My family is a dream come true. They are living proof.
I prayed for Young-mi to be my wife BY NAME and God honored my prayer.
Again, I am not in any way trying to lift me or my family up. I am trying to express to you the facts as I know them.
I have arrived to a point in my life that I really do not care what other people think of me.
I do know that God is real. I do not need to prove myself to anybody, nor do I have an agenda hades bent to have something to prove.
I know that as long as I am true to God that God will take care of me. You want my crediblity? Ask ANYBODY who knows me or knows of me and they will tell you the same thing: Brother Johnson is a good brother. If I take care of my character, God will take care of my reputation.
If anybody has credibility issues, you only need to look to the NTCC leadership and preachers. I know you have already seen the fasade. Mike Kekel has as much crediblity as a fly on the wall.
No, I take that back - I do have ONE agenda - to spread the word that NTCC is a cult and will ruin your life.
Nellashara, have a nice day.
Bro Johnson
Nellashara, you stated per earlier post,
"When I was there (Junction City, Kansas), we wanted to have a baby shower and the pastor at the time said baby showers were carnal and did not allow it. Perhaps you received used items because they (the sisters)were under pressure".
The devil is a liar! I can tell you that items received were not because sisters were under pressure. They were accustomed to giving out used clothes - trash.
In my household, I am accustomed to throwing trash away, which is exactly what I did with those sorry items recieved.
You must have had a different pastor. I had four of them - Devenshire (wife can sing great!), Bellamy (wife cannot sing a note nor play the piano correctly), Gandy (he had a thing about bling! bling! (wife was OK) and Some other guy with a Asian or Korean wife (now she was scary, like Edward Sissorhands). She tried too hard to please. No, ex NTCC'ers it was not Sister Butler.
I am a little perplexed at some of the rules I am reading about. We did not have these at JC during my tenure there. Must have been made up by the Preacher.
Blessings,
Bo Johnson
Quick question, did you even ask the Noel's if it was o.k. for you to write this here about them?????
Because, being the upright guy your claiming to be (just asking because if you had used me here and I didn't know about it I would have you shut down) you would make sure it was alright.
B.T.W. Don't get your underoos in a jumble, but I don't think it's right you to be bringing folks into your examples and they don't even have any say so.
Thank you,
Waiting....
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