I do see the benefit in a woman staying at home with young children that aren't school age. I also see the benefit in the Father or Mother being at home when their children are at home. I personally believe one of the biggest breakdown's in our society is the lack of parenting altogether due to both parents working and rarely being around to raise the children. With that being said there are ways for both parents to work while not sacrificing the time needed for proper child rearing. I have thrown a little humor in this message but please look past the humor and notice the true validity in the statements made.
For all of you who do not know "keepers at home" is ONE word in the greek language; "oikourgos." Greek manuscripts were prominently used to translate the New Testament into English which was the case with "keepers at home" and it was originally one word and not the three that we see in the KJV. To understand the true meaning of the three words; "keepers at home," you must look up the one Greek word "oikourgos," because that is the word that keepers at home was translated from. That one word then meant and still means to be "domestically inclined" or "a good house keeper" or "taking care of household affairs" or "domestic." I used several different references to look up the definition and they all paralleled each other. The word "oikourgos" DOES NOT MEAN nor can it be implied or interpreted to mean, that a woman can not have a job or leave her house. The Bible can not be subjected to any private interpretation and the facts that I've written can not be disputed. RWD and his ministers have given that scripture there own private interpretation for their own private reasons and they are WRONG.
NTCC pastors teach that women should not work on a job; PEROID. NTCC pastors wrongfully try to support this teaching by inaccurately interpreting the scripture that speaks of woman being "keepers at home" which can be found by looking at Titus 2:4-5. Being "keepers at home" once again does not under any circumstances mean that a woman can not have a job that pays her money for her time invested, or she will go to hell along with her husband because he allowed her to do it. It doesn't mean she is wrong if she works on a job either. Read Proverbs Chapter 31 because it definitely stated clearly that it is good for a woman to work on a job and help her husband. You can't pick and choose when the Old Testament is applicable, you bunch of hypocrites that know the truth.
NTCC pastors teach that women should not work on a job; PEROID. NTCC pastors wrongfully try to support this teaching by inaccurately interpreting the scripture that speaks of woman being "keepers at home" which can be found by looking at Titus 2:4-5. Being "keepers at home" once again does not under any circumstances mean that a woman can not have a job that pays her money for her time invested, or she will go to hell along with her husband because he allowed her to do it. It doesn't mean she is wrong if she works on a job either. Read Proverbs Chapter 31 because it definitely stated clearly that it is good for a woman to work on a job and help her husband. You can't pick and choose when the Old Testament is applicable, you bunch of hypocrites that know the truth.
Here's where the true NTCC double standard exists concerning this topic. So if keepers at home means that a woman must be a stayer at home as I've heard some NTCC pastors say, or a woman can not have a job, why doesn't the scripture read:
1 NTCC 1:1 women need to be keepers at home unless they are Tanya Kekel and teach at the NTCC bible college.
1 NTCC 1:2 women need to be keepers at home unless they clean Tanya Kekels home for chump change or nothing at all.
1 NTCC 1:3 women need to be keepers at home unless they clean and maintain Davis's house.
1 NTCC 1:4 women need to be keepers at home unless they get paid to baby sit an NTCC sisters kids so that she can leave her home to go soul winning, “and not be a keeper at home” to bring in more people to the NTCC which will bring in more money for the NTCC so they will be able to teach more women how to be keepers at home.
1 NTCC 1:5 women need to be keepers at home unless their local pastor appoints them as the supply picker upper for the local NTCC church which allows the pastors wife to be a keeper at home when she is not away from the home shopping for herself.
1 NTCC 1:6 women need to be keepers at home unless they are sent to pick up women that want to come to the local NTCC church service to learn about being a keeper at home.
1 NTCC 1:7 women should be keepers at home unless they work in the OFFICE at the NTCS like Olson's wife used to or teach like Ashmore's wife used to when her last name was Duran.
1 NTCC 1:1 women need to be keepers at home unless they are Tanya Kekel and teach at the NTCC bible college.
1 NTCC 1:2 women need to be keepers at home unless they clean Tanya Kekels home for chump change or nothing at all.
1 NTCC 1:3 women need to be keepers at home unless they clean and maintain Davis's house.
1 NTCC 1:4 women need to be keepers at home unless they get paid to baby sit an NTCC sisters kids so that she can leave her home to go soul winning, “and not be a keeper at home” to bring in more people to the NTCC which will bring in more money for the NTCC so they will be able to teach more women how to be keepers at home.
1 NTCC 1:5 women need to be keepers at home unless their local pastor appoints them as the supply picker upper for the local NTCC church which allows the pastors wife to be a keeper at home when she is not away from the home shopping for herself.
1 NTCC 1:6 women need to be keepers at home unless they are sent to pick up women that want to come to the local NTCC church service to learn about being a keeper at home.
1 NTCC 1:7 women should be keepers at home unless they work in the OFFICE at the NTCS like Olson's wife used to or teach like Ashmore's wife used to when her last name was Duran.
1 NTCC 1:8 women should be keepers unless the local pastor makes an exception to the rule and seeks approval from Graham so the NTCC leadership can pray to the Lord and ask God to change his mind about a woman being a "keeper at home" because the church is running low on money.
1 NTCC 1:9 women should be keepers at home unless they spend so much time shopping and away from the home like Tanya Kekel, that they wouldn't have time for a job even if they wanted one because it would interfere with their shopping time away from the home.
1 NTCC 1:10 women should be keepers at home except for the extensive amount of time spent in church, or at soul winning meetings, or at choir practice. or teaching Sunday School, or at Sunday School meetings, or at women's Bible study, or cleaning up the church or anything else that NTCC leaders figures out for a woman to do other than being a keeper at home.
You see current NTCC pastors and wife’s; this IS a double standard that it is taught that woman should not work at a paid job, but they can do everything under the sun for the local church and church members and church elders and sometimes for pay and go shopping constantly. You can't have it both ways and not be a hypocrite with double standards. You can't make the scripture suit you under some situations but not others. I know why they don't want women to work. Because it makes these men feel that they have lost control and it gives their members a financial stability that the leadership recognizes can also result in a loss of control. It is more important to the leadership to have control over these women for their needs such as cleaning or baby sitting or teaching in the BS or working in the BS office. This way more people can go soul winning and more people can go to their BS because a sister can baby sit for PAY and not be a keeper at home. They say those activities outside the home are alright but forget about a real job. Can you spell DOUBLE STANDARD?
Also why do some pastors try to make an exception to this rule when it financially benefits their church? Click on the link below and you will read a good example on an NTCC pastor who made an exception to the rule and claimed that he had the approval from Graham. This was what was written and you can also click on the link to read the whole story.
Truly Free wrote... All of a sudden the local pastor said that he contacted Graham and the NTCC leadership had decided to make an exception to the rule for her to work. When my time to relocate for the military came, I was asked by the NTCC pastor, to leave my wife behind for 2 YEARS to continue to work and pay the TITHE and OFFERING while doing Sunday school. The pastor’s wife didn't like teaching in the Sunday school so at all costs the pastor attempted to always have someone else in that position, even if it meant separating me and my wife for 2 years. Of course he needed the extra tithe money from my wife’s income because the church was going through financial difficulties having recently lost many tithe paying church members.
Jeff Collins
122 comments:
I am glad I was a stay at home mom when my children were young. It was not easy living on one income, but we have no regrets in that area.
That being said, denis being in woodbrook changed many things.
soulwinning and soul winning meetings, prayer meetings, church services and Bible studies did what a job for me didn't do: it put my kids in nursery/day care for about 40 HOURS a week. (like a full time job) we were ALWAYS rushing around doing things for the "church". my husband couldn't spend as much time with the children as he wanted to. with him being in the army, going in by 5:30am, coming home around 5pm, having to meet at the church by 6 or 6:30 on Wed and Fri and by 7 on Tues, then if you had contacts that needed to go to the Q & A on Mon that was another added day. Weekends were just as bad, or worse. Ladies prayer meeting, soul winning/jack up meeting at 10:30, then soulwinning/jack up meeting and soulwinning till 1:30, then soulwinning/prayer/jack up meeting from 4 or 4:30 (depending on denis' mood) till around 5:30 or 6,then checking up on people, inviting, picking people up for church, then church sevice at 7:30,then, when ever church was over and we took contacts home. sometimes one of the spouses had to say behind with the kids (out of the way, of course) while the other took people home. Many saturdays we didn't get home till after 9pm, many times even later. all to turn around and do it again on sunday morn except earlier. on sun am we would meet at the church for prayer and jack up sessions at 8:30am. the service there didn't start till 11:30am. same thing, take people home after, come back for your familiy, go home (sometimes having contacts/newbies over to eat), then back to prayer/soulwinning/jack up/ meeting at 4 or 4:30. repeat from the day before. It was like that the whole time denis was there. it didn't change much when gandy and those who followed after him got there.
oh, and on some saturdays if the numbers were low for that evening service, the pastor (all of them did it) would call a special soul winning on SATURDAY NIGHT. so here is the whole church (minus the kids because remember, they are still in nursery) out on post inviting someone to church.
is it still the same?
don't read this thinking that we had no care for people. many of the church memebers DID care very much for the people they brought to church. we should just have vistited and worked with them how we were led of God to do so. too much interference.
anyway, I wrote all that to make a point. how was that being a "keeper at home."?
even the women who were in the army/air force FULL TIME had to keep to the same schedule. tell me how THAT is/was conducive to their being "keepers at home".
even if denis is not there anymore, he did this WHILE HE WAS IN NTCC. and left THAT legacy for other preachers to follow. why?
BECAUSE IT BROUGHT NUMBERS INTO THE CHURCH.
This topic is still a big sore spot for me.
There were a lot of reasons for me leaving NTCC but the main one was my children needed their Mom.
I love being a stay at home Mom, I also love to work. When in NTCC I was hardley ever at home and my kids were always in the nursery. My house duties were neglected a lot.
Out of NTCC when I worked I still had more time with my kids then I did while in NTCC.
I teach children at the church I attend now. I still have more time with my kids then I ever did in NTCC.
I am also going back to school. Not only to further my education but to go forth in the calling that the Lord has laid on my life. I still have more time with my kids then I ever did when in NTCC.
My children started to hate me when in NTCC. My daughter actually said she hated me because I never had time for her. Which was true. I can't make up for that time lost. But I make sure my kids have my attention 110% when they are home from school.
Not only did that "busy for the Lord" life style that NTCC shoved down our throats hurt my family but it also caused me a number of medical problems all related to the stress of always constantly on the go for NTCC, not getting enough sleep, etc. So glad to say I am no longer in NTCC.
So glad I have more time for my kids. Glad to be back in school. Glad I am no longer having stress related medical problems. Glad I get to actually sleep 8+ hours a night. Glad I don't get phone calls from the church guilt tripping me into something or crying at me if I missed a service, bible study, soul winning meeting, etc.
I'm free and I know that I am!
Angie
I relished being a stay at home Mom. I was a professional at it and let everyone know about it. My spouse at the time became mired in addictions, which siphoned away our(which he ony believed was his anyways) money. Distressed I went to my pastor, who said in his great knowledge(everyone hold on to your seats) "You married him!" This is NTCC prophetic speak, meaning "yes Sister I hear you, but as long as he is paying tithe on time, its not my problem" If I were to take our money and spend it how I pleased I would have been a disobediant witch.
I grew tired of seeing our kids go without, and the lights were next to go out. So I secretly took a job, and just took the beatings when I couldn't show up to every church meeting. My pastor found out(a new one) and ripped me apart. Nothing that a cup of coffee couldn't cure, or knowing on my conscience I did what was best for my children. I told him I woulld stop working if NTCC got a committee together to figure out how to keep my lights on despite my husbands addictions. The pastor said "Just pray about it"(translation be warm and be filled). That night he prayed with me, and took up a faith offering in my childrens honor...YEAH RIGHT!!! He lit me up like a Bagdad Sunday, but I didn't care....he could only preach about me so long, untill he thrist for his next victim. Church members looked down on me, but I didn't care what they thought. My kids's needs were provided for, and my conscience was clear. Of course my husband refused to get a hold of his addictions(and infidelity) and I divorced him.
My kids had been my line drawn in the sand, first my ex husband had crossed it then NTCC. What is your line in the sand?
Soul Sista #1
BTW beat the horse Brother Jeff, maybe it will turn into glue and stick in people's minds!
SS #1
Wow ladies!!! These truly were three of the greatest posts that I have ever read, that effectively illustrates just how destructive the NTCC is. Wow, wow, wow!!!!
Sister I'm glad you said that this program wasn't about Denis because in many places it still exists. This exact type of program that can thoroughly destroy a family, existed in the church in Atlanta Georgia. Pastor Mayers had nothing to do with Denis in Atlanta because he was the pastor of a civilian church and Denis didn't deal with us at all.
This junk came from Olson and Kekel and I heard Kekel teach it in conference.
Sisters: Your stories are alarming to say the least and they thoroughly support this thread and quite effectively I might add. Not only does the NTCC wrongfully teach the meaning of being a keeper at home but they willfully violate their own teachings with ridicules schedules such as the ones that we all had to endure if we wanted to "happily" remain in the NTCC.
How does it make you feel Sisters when people like Olson and Kekel say that the statements that people like you and I write on this blog are no more than LIES OF THE DEVIL? I know that none of you lied; and how do I know? Because I went through the same garbage together with my wife.
This keeper at home business that the NTCC teaches is a farce and a lie and they teach it for purely selfish reasons because it is not biblically justified as I proved when I prefaced this thread.
Thank you so much LADIES and I capitalized all the letters to intentionally patronize you all because you deserve it. You all sacrificed more than most folks will ever even dream of, and the heart felt testimonies that you gave on this blog should be extremely useful in helping to open the eyes of the women still trapped by the NTCC's dogmatic mandates.
With all respect due to you all,
Jeffrey C. Collins
There is certainly a double standard in the org regarding what constitutes permissible work for women. I recently learned that the Gesangs have a side business--selling chameleons!:
www.chameleonsnorthwest.com
(Their years of association with the leaders of NTCC definitely qualify them as chameleon experts).
There's a cute photo of Eli with one of his pets at http://www.reptilegeeks.com/chamnw , where one can learn the company's history:
"It all started with Guido, our first male Veiled Chameleon about 5 years ago. Sandy bought him for me for my bithday and he lived in our office, in our home. But Guido didn't like to live in a cage, so we allowed him to roam our office all day. He soon took up residence on the wooden blinds where he spent most of his time. He would often roam the office, come sit on my shoulder, watch Sandy work from on top of her computer monitor, or hide in the mess of cables under the desk. Being a male, he began to show male activities with anything warm, like our hands. So we finally bought him a female. It took him all of about 90 seconds to realize she was the real thing! Soon we had eggs. Next thing you know we are building a breeding colony. Then we are building a breeding facility and a lab for our work with chameleons. Now we are Chameleons Northwest LLC and we ship our chameleons all over the country."
I found this endorsement on one of the chameleon forums:
"Check it out, you can call Eliot or Sandy @ chameleons northwest they are very helpful and will address any concerns."
So it does appear that Sandy is fully involved in this endeavor, and likely carries on much (if not most) of the day-to-day operations.
Now, I think it is fantastic that my old friends have parlayed an interesting hobby into what appears to be a successful enterprise. It really is the American way, and I'm happy for them. But unless this nationwide chameleon merchant business and breeding lab is a big secret, it's hard to see how he RW can leave them alone, given his history of fulminating against preachers who dared to even take a measly paper route for extra income (not to mention his attitude regarding cats roaming the house, much less these first cousins to the serpent).
I remember cases where RW gave husbands both barrels for assuming apartment manager duties in exchange for free rent, solely on the basis that it was forcing their wives to violate the "keepers at home" principle, since they helped with the books, etc. Jeff has already pointed out many instances of favoritism resulting in exemption from RW's behavioral expectations, and this appears to be yet another.
Another possibility is that RW is feeble and out of touch, and people don't fear him anymore and feel the liberty to violate his weird personal standards, knowing he won't be around that much longer. He's already "retiring," and maybe the diminution of his role and presence has emboldened some to assert their individuality. I hope that's true, but the new generation of leaders won't be any more beneficent than he's been. They've destroyed their own credibility by participating in his corrupt regime for years.
If you want to buy a chameleon, Eli and Sandy can help you out. But if you just want to see some fine specimens, catch an NTCC service in Graham and check out the leaders. What you see isn't what you'll get.
WOW--You guys are hitting the nail on the head! Do you know how many of us went through financial hell for years, because our wife wasn't allowed to work? This is the way it works-- As a man you work yourself to death trying to provide enough money to support your family. But, due to all the rules about not working overtime, weekends, and having to go to conferences-- you can only find a low paying job, usually in construction It's nearly impossible to support a family in this day and age on one income, but you have to do it because Davis still thinks it's 1955, and you can live on $100/week. When you can't pay your bills, or afford a decent car or apartment-- Davis plows your field for not taking better care of your money, and not taking care of your family. Why, you're "worse than an infidel"! How many times did he say, "You have as much money as you want"!! And if, by alot of hard work and sacrifice, you did manage to finally get a little money-- you soon had to spend it all to go to a conference, or to go "out in the work". It's a very vicious cycle! Yet, the rich leaders of ntcc won't lift one little finger to alleviate your burden.
What you don't hear about is the incredible pressure put on a man for not providing a decent life for his family; the intense pressure on a marriage where there is never enough money to buy everything you need; and the mental and emotional stress which takes it's toll on your physical and mental health over the years. Let me tell you-- after 20 plus years of living in that pressure cooker, we felt like a 1000 lbs had been lifted off our shoulders the day we left ntcc!! And I regained my mental and physical health soon after. What a scam!!!!
They sure change their colors like a chameleon when they decide what form of work is acceptable for a woman and which women are authorized to work.
The NTCC has really done folks wrong and put people in poverty as a direct result of the practices and mandates that have been identified in this very thread.
The NTCC leadership requires that women not work however the same NTCC leadership finds everything in the world for a woman to do that takes her totally away from her children and this often results in her having to spend money that she doesn't even have on child care.
It is a true atrocity committed against so many folks who have good intentions and who loyally follow these NTCC users and crooks.
Jeff
I have to say that my wife and I have lived on a one income budget soon after we married back in 2000.
In the military, it is duable but you have to follow a tight budget. This is also with (now) three kids.
Would the extra money be nice? Yes, but not at the expense of my children being neglected. My wife does the hardest job in the world - raising my three kids when I am away at work. I pull some crazy hours as a Platoon Sergeant ( 4 AM to 9 PM everyday and Saturdays) and I am dependent on my wife to clean, cook, and read to my kids.
When I do finally make it home I am so pooped at times after five minutes I am "out" with my kids in my arms.
When I finally make it to the rank of Sergeant Major someday I pray the sacrifices I am doing now will be worth it.
Not that I would not mind my wife working or going to college.
By the way I know a certian minister who's wife got around the "keeper of the home" thing and when she was in Korea, she would call Korean women and spoke with them in conversational English and was paid pretty good money for her telephonic assistance. When her and her husband went to conference one year I made the calls.
MLJ
The other thing I thought was rude (some might see it as funny) is all the NTCCers that went around telling the Parents how to raise their kids. When they didn't have any kids of their own.
That is a pet peeve of mine. The way I see it, if your name isn't on the kids birth certificate as their birth parents or you are not the adoptive parents/step parent(s) then you have no business telling Parents how to raise their kids. Especially if you don't have any kids!
I don't remember who it was but I had mentioned how my kids hated me for never having time for them and the person basically said they will thank you for it later because it was all for God.
*rolls eyes* Psshhh Talk to the Hand cuz the Face ain't listening! (as they used to say when I was in Jr. High)
angie, that would also tic me off.
the kids will thank you later, huh?
well let them put their own kids through it, them let their kids be thankful for it before they tell the rest of us how it should be done.
they can be quick to make judgements, dish out unwanted advice, make unwelcome comments, and so on, but they were very short on the compassion and understanding.
I would often wonder, as I left my own children in the nursery,(many times with sisters who had attitudes because they didn't want to be there either), if the pastor and his wife would also leave their child there for as long as we would under the same comditions they expect us too.
signed, polaris
There is some disingenuousness going on here. It's unfortunate, if people have been led to believe that the wife is not allowed to bring in any kind of income for the home. I have understood for a long time that it was acceptable for a wife to make crafts at home and sell them, or sew things for people for money or anything else you can think of that could be done from the home to produce an income.
This idea was presented to me when I was in the servicemen's home back in the '90s and I told the pastor of the church that my mom was making soaps and selling them. He said that it was good and that Sis. Davis had done this sort of thing and even encouraged it. This is nothing new to me, the fact that you here on this blog are just now stumbling into this idea is quite telling. Either,as I said, some of you are being quite disingenuous, or someone has been teaching something that is not in line with NTCC and what we believe.
I'm sure someone will have the question: "what about the fact that we don't have any time to do anything from home because of the amount of time the pastor has us doing things for the church?" To answer this, I would have to know the particular situation, without any exaggeration, just the plain facts. I believe and agree that some pastors are overstepping their bounds by requireing too much time from the members. The problem starts sometimes when women complain of having to sit around the house and "look at four walls." To some pastors, this is an open invitation to use them for his soulwinning efforts. This is also wrong.
-concerned minister NTCC
to concerned minister:
the plain facts are given here. please read the first post. what do you have to say about the time constraints concerning this particular servicemans home?
what about the other issues addressed here?
are you familiar with other churches that have similar schedules?
and I think you missed the point. the point is not so much that women wanted to get out and get a job. (maybe some did). it is that we are told about being keepers at home, and about how a job would keep us away from that particular duty. then, we are obligated to keep a very hectic church schedule that does what "they" say a job would do: keep us from being keepers at home. now THAT, is disingenuous.
signed, polaris
ps:
it is not the pastors or anyone elses job to "fill" in a bored, unimaginitve lady's time. that is her problem to learn and figure out.
I never complained to any pastor about having nothing to do, and yet I had to put up with the intrusions on my life, time, and desires.
signed, polaris
ps:
why do you even think these posts are exaggerations?
Minister,
No exaggeration here, husband refused to support his family...pastor didn't care or offer support.Kids cold and hungry. Had to work. Single parent now, because husband didn't care. Kids warm and happy.
There sir, I wrote you the "cliff notes version" of my story
Soul Sista #1
concerned,
With all due respect, you are wrong here. Did you read my post about Blumenthal preaching me into hell, in front of the whole church and my new bride, because she worked 2 weeks on a job after we got married? He preached me into hell, because Davis preached anyone into hell if their wife worked. Now, I don't know how much money can be made selling homemade soap, or crafts, but it probably isn't enough to buy a weeks worth of food. They would probably make $20 a month-- definitely not enough to help in any way. And who is going to buy some homemade stuff, when you can go to Walmart and get something better for the same price?
I have a question for you-- Do YOU think it is a SIN for a married Christian woman to work on a job, whether she has kids or not? Yes or No?
NTCC Minister,
Its funny....well....Not really....
I go to church now (not NTCC). I am involved in the ministry of this church.
I am going to school full time.
I still have time for my family.
My Pastor doesn't guilt trip me or give me that "you need to get right with God" crap if I call and tell him I won't be able to make it to a meeting, or service (usually because either I am sick, or the kids are sick or something has come up that I need to do, say a doctors appointment).
When in NTCC I can recall several times where the Pastor and or his Wife (usually it was the Pastor). Would have a cow if I couldn't make it to something. And give me the ol sister God needs bla bla bla or sister you need to get right with God or Sister couldn't you reschedule that appointment.
They bugged me more about not being around then my Parents ever did growing up.
Ok at least I am respectful enough (minus one instance in NTCC) to call and say I won't be there because of a sick kid or doctors appointment or I myself and too sick. So why the guilt trip?
Oh I forgot to mention the always mentioned need to be busy for God so you don't have time to be tempted by the devil speech.
One time I just went and took a short trip to the ocean and didn't tell the Pastor. WOW when I got back I thought he was having a heart attack! The guilt trip was laid on thick. All I wanted was some time alone with my family without being bothered. I let my family (Parents and Husband) know what I was doing(Hubby was in Iraq). Those are the people who I felt needed to know.
The only time I have ever been bored (this was way before NTCC) and staring at the walls at home was before I had children. I got up in the morning with my husband, made him breakfast and then went about cleaning the house. Which for those of you who don't have kids know it doesn't take very long to clean a house unless your husband is an absolute slob or even the wife *gasp* is an absolute slob. So about an hour and a half later I was done.I was than Bored out of my mind for about 5 hours (hubby left for PT at 4am). Then I would make my husband lunch and take it to him (He was in the Marines then) and spend lunch with him. Then go home and be half bored out of my mind again for a few more hours. Then I would make dinner and have it waiting when he got home.
I am an artsy crafty type of person. But I do not like making things and pricing them. I just feel guilty for asking a certain amount for something I made. That is just me. I do sell arts and craft stuff once in a while but I always have someone else price it so I don't have to deal with that part.
Anyways back to the story. After our daughter was born I never had time to be bored anymore. I don't understand a MOM who has children who are not school aged who says she is bored. Because let me tell you Kids who are not school age from infant until 5 years of age are never boring. They keep you pretty stinking busy! And keeping the house clean after a kid that isn't old enough to understand they need to pick up after themselves is a trip on its own. So as a Mom, who was in NTCC with young kids (son aged from 2 to 5 while I was in and daughter aged from 4 to 7 while I was in).
You try dealing with being guilt tripped into always being at church for one thing or another and raising your family.. OH wait thats right your probably a guy so you have absolutely no clue what goes on at home while you are off working (sorry to those of you men who actually respect your wife enough to not think she sits on her butt all day while you are gone).
I have a lot more free time now then I ever did while in NTCC and I am always finding things to do. And again my Pastor I have now (again not NTCC)doesn't guilt trip me into being at the church all the time. With my kids in the nursery alllll the time.
My church schedule now depends on if I happen to be teaching childrens church or not. So some weeks I am doing church stuff on Sunday, Tuesday, and Saturday. On other weeks I am just doing stuff on Sunday and Saturday.
Also our church supplies the women who teach the classes with all the materials needed to teach their classes (something NTCC NEVER did at least while I was in and do not consider the Graham compound I never attended Graham except for the occasional thursday night service when I wanted to go to church which going to the thursday night services when I did was by my own choice I was never guilt tripped into that and I didn't always go because I got sick of going to hear preaching and instead hearing people get jacked up).
I could go on. But lets just say this The Pastor I have now encourages family time. If you are doing something with your family or wanting to spend time with your family or go on vacation with your family he is all more then happy to tell you to have a wonderful time. If you have a doctors appointment and have to miss a meeting he is more then happy to meet with you at a seperate time. If they need you to help with anothe area of the church they call and ask and if you say you can't they have no problem asking someone else. With NTCC it was never like that. It was always "OOOOH SISTER bla bla bla you need to pray and get right with God"
Can I go on? Ok I will. When my husband (who never attended NTCC) heard of how busy I was (he was in Iraq) he flipped. He said I should be only going to Church on Sunday and Wednesday and needed to be home more with our kids. I told him about being made to feel like I was failing God if I wasn't at church for whatever it was that I was being guilt tripped about that day. He was not a happy camper. He said if we are tithing to that church and they can not lay off and let me be a mother instead of a seat warmer and they can't help when there is a need (which when there was a need and I asked they wouldn't help) then you are no longer allowed to tithe to that church. He actually sent his tithe to another church after that. I still tithed off the money he gave me. But wow when the church looses a huge tithe check a month in tithe you can sure bet they had seizures. That is about the time I started having the "female" medical problems and almost had to have a full hysterectomy. But thank GOD my doctor had a brain in his head and suggested it could be related to stress. And asked me to only go to Sunday services and that was it. And I felt bad about it (probably because of all the guilt tripping that goes on) but I did it. And you know what? The female problem cleared up. I didnt need surgery. But you know what I was told at church "Oh thats just the devil trying to keep you from the work of GAWWD"
So you can make those snide comments all you want NTCC Minister but until your a woman and you actually experience what most of the woman do in NTCC then you have no business to talk.
Oh and for your information I went to the Woodbrook NTCC for 3 years. Even the Pastors wife was so busy she barely had time to breathe. I've got nothing against them. What happened between us has been dealt with. My Problem is with NTCC. Your NTCC church if you have one may not be like that but most of them are. If I wanted to live under the rule of a dictator I would have married someone else. I don't need my life controlled for me. I don't need to be told what to do and made to feel bad if I don't. Christians are not supposed to be made to feel like trash by other Christians. We are supposed to love each other. How is forcing/guilt tripping people into serving a church showing love?
Everything I do now is by choice.
But if you would like I can pick a day this week and write down just what my schedule is like so you get an idea of how busy I am. I don't have time to "stare at the walls". And it is by my choice. But I sure as heck am not over working myself like I was in NTCC. My health has improved so much since I left NTCC it's awesome!
So you can go on living like none of that crap ever happens. But your just fooling yourself. Because I know it still does. Why you might ask? I still have a few friends that are still in NTCC who are still so busy they don't have time to see the light of day. Almost everytime we talk it is a short conversation because they gotta go cuz its soul winning, or church is about to start, or its ladies bible study, etc. etc. etc.
So if you have your own NTCC church and your not forcing your members by guilt tripping them into doing things and your not telling people they need to get right with God if they miss a service or meeting or do not want to soul win constantly then maybe your one of the few Pastors in NTCC I've heard about (must be a myth because I've never seen or heard any of them myself) that actually care for their members instead of run them into the ground. More power too ya. But if your doing the same darn thing Davis does and making your members feel like crap for missing a service/meeting/soul winning, etc. Then you are no better then the rest of the NTCC Pastors.
At least the one I had apolojized to me for the way I was treated. Can't say I've heard of any other NTCC Pastors doing that.
If I ever saw my old Pastor from NTCC on the street I would have no problem talking to him because he at least admitted and apolojized to me for the hurt. But that won't happen. Davis made him and his wife stop talking to me once he found out about it because I had already left NTCC. Talk about being controlled! I would have told Davis to stuff it and go climb a tree but I guess I have more balls then most of the men in NTCC. At least I got no problem standing up for myself. I might have then but I sure as heck don't now. And my husband likes me just the way I am he doesn't want me to change to suit some man made religious views. If I want to wear makeup he doesn't care, if I want to wear pants, he doesn't care. WH? Because he knows I love him and I won't be leaving him or leading on another Man. Because he trusts me to be the wife/mother that I am. I hold my vows close to my heart. I take them very seriously. Divorce is not an option for us. We even have an agreement that no matter how bad things get (which they have never even been slightly bad with us) that we would seek help to restore our marriage before we ever considered divorce. Doesn't seem to be the case in NTCC. Soon as your wife shows signs of wanting out your being encouraged to get a divorce or visa versa. THat is not biblical.
Matthew 19:6 (KJV) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
And I am done with my rant.
You sir mr NTCC Minister should really get off your pedestool and go look at how the other churches are treating their members before you get on your high horse and assume it isn't happening or never did happen. Especially the servicemens homes. Its a slow spiritual death in NTCC. Believe it or not. I felt it and it sure wasn't because of something I did.
Angie
PS. Sorry if this comes across as me being bent. But people really have no right to say comments that were said when they have no clue what is going on. Or they see it and ignore it. Grrrr. I am gonna go finish my homework. Hope you get to visiting all your NTCC churches and see how the people are being treated. Oh and don't tell the Pastor your coming so he can't hide it. Because it's so weird how things improve when they know another Pastor is on his way for a visit!
Angie your absolutely right on that!!!
That is the key, the men don't have the nerve to stand up to the leaders and its really kind of sad.
Concerned Minister: I want to say this as respectfully as I can because that is the type of conduct that I wish to exist here on this blog.
Sir; have you been in a different NTCC than the rest of us? Seriously! How is it that every NTCC pastor that I have ever had, categorically taught that women can not lawfully before God, keep a job or look for a job. Taylor, Madrano, Ramirez, Mayers, Hunt, and Oberhauser all taught the exast same thing. Their leaders taught the same thing. They not only taught that but they VICIOUSLY blasted women and or their husbands if they kept a job of looked for a job if they were married?
Concerned: That is a fact. I have personally witnessed this teaching come from all levels in the NTCC. I find it impossible to believe that you haven't witnessed this. This very subject of women not working was taught in the serviceman's homes and civilian churches. Sir; I am not trying to be contentious here or disrespectful when I say this, but it clearly appears to me that you are being disingenuous when you suggest that you don't know that it is a FIRM NTCC standard and LAW for NTCC wives not to work on a job. Show me one NTCC ministers wife who leaves her house in the morning and goes to a job and comes home in the evening? If she does work on a job, every pastor and overseer that I have ever known in the NTCC would say that she is not only wrong but she doesn't trust God and without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God so therefor it is sin.
I have never seen it because the NTCC leadership teaches that it is a Sin for a wife to work and Sir you must know this. There is no way that you could spend any length of time in the NTCC an not know this standard / law.
If the NTCC teaches that a woman can baby sit for money or find other means to make money outside of going to a job it is ONCE AGAIN A DOUBLE STANDARD. You can't have it both ways and not be a hypocrite. This is exactly why I can't stand the NTCC at all. The NTCC is so full of double standards and people that blindly allow the abuse to continue while simply explaining it away as though it never happened.
Jeff.
come on now Jeff, are you saying you don't have the balls to allow these posts?
t
polaris said:
"what do you have to say about the time constraints concerning this particular servicemans home?"
I already answered that: "I believe and agree that some pastors are overstepping their bounds by requireing too much time from the members."
polaris said:
"are you familiar with other churches that have similar schedules?"
Absolutely! I believe it is wrong. Whatever those pastors do with their churches and members, they will have to answer for it. And, judging from the criticism they are receiving here, I believe they already are answering for it to some degree, although not to NTCC leadership.
polaris also said:
"we are told about being keepers at home, and about how a job would keep us away from that particular duty. then, we are obligated to keep a very hectic church schedule that does what "they" say a job would do: keep us from being keepers at home. now THAT, is disingenuous."
I totally agree!
polaris:
"it is not the pastors or anyone elses job to "fill" in a bored, unimaginitve lady's time. that is her problem to learn and figure out."
Again, I agree.
polaris:
"why do you even think these posts are exaggerations?"
My words were not an accusation, just letting you know what I would need to know: "I would have to know the particular situation, without any exaggeration, just the plain facts."
Soul Sista:
"No exaggeration here, husband refused to support his family...pastor didn't care or offer support.Kids cold and hungry. Had to work. Single parent now, because husband didn't care. Kids warm and happy."
Sounds like a sorry husband, sorry pastor. they will have to answer to God for their failure. I'm sorry I can't offer you more than that.
Casey,
I don't know how much soap and crafts sell for, I never asked my mom. She did make some money from doing it though. There are places that sell homemade soaps as natural remedies in some of these niche stores. The point is, there are work from home jobs you can do that don't require a lot of time and bring in some extra income. Now that the internet is becoming increasingly popular as a place to shop, you don't even have to take your products to the stores as often anymore.
You asked if I think it is a sin for a woman who is married to hold a job outside the home. I believe, according to my understanding of the Bible, that it is. I know you and Jeff and many others believe I am wrong. As I told Jeff in another thread, I will not debate this topic. I am realy posting here to deal with a bigger matter, that is, the abusive tactics that some preachers use, which is absolutely wrong!
Angie,
Sounds like there was some real abuse going on. There is a special place in Hell for preachers who place so much stress on people that it causes medical problems. Jesus healed the sick, He did not make people sick. You don't have to apologize for sounding bent, you have been used and exploited. Use caution in how you vent, David had a chance to kill Saul, and he never did, even though Saul was trying to kill him.
Jeff said:
"Sir; I am not trying to be contentious here or disrespectful when I say this, but it clearly appears to me that you are being disingenuous when you suggest that you don't know that it is a FIRM NTCC standard and LAW for NTCC wives not to work on a job. Show me one NTCC ministers wife who leaves her house in the morning and goes to a job and comes home in the evening?"
Jeff, I clearly, stated before: "I have understood for a long time that it was acceptable for a wife to make crafts at home and sell them, or sew things for people for money or anything else you can think of that could be done from the home to produce an income." Never have I indicated that I believe, or that it is NTCC belief that a woman can leave the home to work on a job.
-concerned minister NTCC
sorry jeff, it was just a joke- couldn't resist
T: Your quicker than I am. Ha, ha. I understand the humor and it is really no problem. I just want to make sure that we don't make NTCCers uncomfortable with reading this stuff which could result in them not coming here anymore.
I totally understand and will refrain from any further "gutter" language
now if we can only get Angie to comply!!
i heard she has been having pepsi's with the devvvillll!!
t
Concerned Minister: I don't agree with your views as you know, but I respect you giving your point of view and I appreciate your attendance here.
All I ask is that you give careful consideration to my original headline post of this thread.
I know that you don't agree with me but I hope that because of what I have written, you would at least consider giving more thought to this topic. If what I have written is true Sir, you have to answer to God for the error that you have promoted which has resulted in the degradation of the lives of so many. Just remember that the scripture can not be given any private interpretation and I have made an awful strong case to support my views.
No one can deny that I have made a very strong case because I have studied this one out thoroughly.
concerned minister,
you stated that as per how you interpret the Bible that it is sin for a woman to work outside the home
now that being said, i would assume that with your line of logic then it would also be sin for a woman to teach a Bible class to men..???
as you know 1 tim 2:11-12 kjv "let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But i suffer not a women to teach, nor usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"....
this i believe is a valid question seeing that you tend to take the Bible in a 'literal' sort of way
what do you have to say about this?
just to further our understanding of the text, here is the NLT
"Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively
I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. let them listen quietly"
i am eager to hear your response to this.
also, please feel free to "gird up you loins" if you will and give us YOUR true opinion, not church policy
sincerely,
t
T: You are a funny dude and I wouldn't mind having a Pepsi with you some day if you are ever here in Georgia.
Jeff.
P.S. By the time I finish with Angie she will be drinking Dr. Pepper. Ha, ha. Take care.
Jeff, i hope your pleased- i used the biblical version of our former comment "gird up your loins"
hehe
t
im right up the street in Boston Ma
Concerned Minister NTCC:
You wrote:
"I believe and agree that some pastors are overstepping their bounds by requireing too much time from the members".
I had over seven pastors. It is not just some, it is almost all, the majority.
The bottom line is this: The more people come to a church, the more can put money in an offering plate which equates to more money for the preacher.
The biggest service you are going to have is Easter, that should make you happy!! Everybody and their moma will be at a church that day.
I appreciate you taking the time to be open minded. Had I been more open minded I would have left NTCC YEARS AGO.
BTW do you know the status of a Joshua Card? Is he still with NTCC?
Bro Johnson
By the Way,
Instead of a sister facing the four walls in a house, she could be pursing an on line degree and educate herself, since the Internet is now accepted in NTCC relm.
Those wifes who are married to Military Members, did your husbands tell you that you can use THEIR GI Bill benefits to pursue an education??
The more education you have, the more doors of opportunity will open up to you in terms of employment.
As PDQ has stated a few times already in terms of joining the military, some of you wifes out there who do not have kids may consider joining the Army, you just may qualify!!
Bro Johnson
T: I can't speak for Concerned Minister but I have been around the NTCC long enough and I have personally heard enough responses to your question to know what most NTCC pastors always say.
Here is the lame answer:
The early church was having a problem with troublesome women during the time that the epistle was written so Paul was dealing with a "Specific" problem that only applied to that period of time. This was addressed directly to Timothy because of Timothy's rule over a particular group of churches or a particular church during that time.
It simply does not apply to us this day in age. So let Tanya Kekel teach on.
That is another example of NTCCs propensity to privately interpret scriptures simply to suit their preferential practices.
Jeff.
Good question T. I may make that it's own topic.
funny Jeff,
that is the exact same kind of thinking the the 'church at large' uses to validate a woman cutting cutting her hair
funny how the quarter can be flipped when necessary!?
t
ps i was hoping this fellow would come up with something a little more substantial
T: We will see. The fact is there is no way to come up with anything very substantial because the scripture says what it says. Anything beside that is purely speculative at best, and not even remotely founded on facts. The NTCC has selectively decided not to believe the bible where that scripture is concerned.
Jeff.
Keep in mind that back in the Bible days, you couldn't just go to the local store and buy clothes and food. Almost everyone (except the wealthy) grew their own food, made their own clothes, and worked from home. They didn't have a choice. This is a completely different day and age-- and the Bible does not say that a woman working outside her house is sinning. It doesn't say it.
-- whoever you are from Boston, you're in my neck of the woods-- I grew up in Connecticut.
casey,
im about 30 minutes south of Boston. where are you located?
t
My apologieis.. Ok I will say some do not have the "guts" or "back bone". I can't edit my posts so....yea.
As for Dr. Pepper. I do drink it but not on a regular basis.
Righ now I am actually drinking a Root Beer. I am fresh out of Pepsi. Sucks to be me! Not really!
In response to Bro Johnson,
I am actually persuing my degree online through Grand Canyon University (*gas* a Christian University) and once I am finished I won't just get a paper with my name on it but I also get to travel to Phoenix and participate in the graduation ceremony. How cool is that? OOH and they are acredited. Also I am coming up on finishing up my first year. Depending on if I keep up my current class schedule or not I will be getting my degree in another 2 or 3 years.
With being a Mom and involved in my church I am greatful there are online classes. It makes it easier for me and my schedule.
For those of you who don't know I love working with children and teens who are mentally and physically disabled. I am going after a Bachelors degree in Psychology with an emphasis on Youth Ministry. And may go further after that.
There is so very little churches that have ministries that reach out to familys of Children and Teens with disablities and I am all excited to change that!
Well I am the household taxi service and my Mom has a hair appointment and I get to take her. So I need to get off of here(We live with my parents so that they don't loose their house due to my Dad having medical issues and not being always able to work).
Also before I go. Please pray for my Dad he has been breaking out in hives (missed another day of work because of it) and we and the good ol doctors haven't been able to figure out what is causing his allergic reaction. He is right now drugged up with benedryl and asleep. His name is Richard. Thank you!
Again my apologies....I feel really stupid right now.
Angie
T,
I grew up in Niantic, near New London. Joined the Army in Syracuse in 1981. Currently I'm a Yankee in Florida. I do get to see Jeff once in a while, which is nice. :)
Angie: No need to feel that way at all. I always respect your point of view and nothing you've written is a big deal. I deleted the post that I wrote.
I just know the way the NTCC folks think because I was one. When they come across certain things they very quickly get offended and then back off while trying to protect their conscience. This particular thread is a very good one and folks like yourself have made great comments and I want to make sure that the NTCC folks find no reason not to read it. They can be very sensitive about certain things.
Talk to you later,
Jeff
Well Jeff, here is one NTCC person who isn't easily offended. Angie uses the language that she is comfortable using, whatever... I would say about the online degree thing, be carefull. If you are sure you are getting your money's worth out of it, more power to you. I just know that nothing beats an in classroom experience where you have face to face with the teacher.
I'm not trying to show off by saying this or anything of the sort, but I do have a degree that I did get from an accredited institution where I did use my GI Bill. I saw a lot of folks try to take the online courses and fail or drop out because it wasn't instructive enough. I'm not saying don't do it, Angie is evidently making it through alright, just be careful.
t, I'm not ignoring your question, I just don't have time right now to answer. I'm on the run, be back in a bit.
-concerned minister NTCC
concerned minister said...
Well Jeff, here is one NTCC person who isn't easily offended.
Jeff said...
That is pretty apparent my friend. I can tell that you aren't easily riled. As I'm sure you've noticed, I can get pretty bent every now and then. I'm working on squashing that a bit. It's somewhat necessary if I'm to orchestrate an effective blog and accomplish my mission. It is somewhat necessary in life also. To everything there is a season. There is a time to get bent and a time to be temperate.
Good to hear from you.
Jeff.
Thanks for your concern. I spent quite a long time checking out this school. They have a physical Campus as well as internet courses and they instruction for me anyway is great. I also am able to call my Professors when I have a question or need help with something. Everything is pretty much explanitory in our online classes though. I did not and nor did my Family want to uproot from a State and a Church that we feel God has placed us in to move to Phoenix just to go to the school of my choice and then have to uproot again and move back to Idaho. I prayed long and hard about this. I probably drove the people nuts at GCU with my questions. But so far the experience has been great. Here in Idaho I checked out the Boise Bible college and it did not have the classes I was looking for and I did not want to go to a secular school. I wanted to be taught with the Biblical background in everything I am going for since I will be working within the church invironment once it is all said and done. Worldy schooling can not prepare you in any way for the Christian invironment.
Just like a secular counselor can not properly counsel a Christian. Because they do not have the Biblical back ground that a Christian should be counseled with.
The cost for my first year of school was a little over $2,500.00 And at the most it costs $3,500.00 depending on the amount of classes you are taking. Very affordable. A heck of a lot cheaper then the schools around here. I've also been to the campus. I suffered through a week long humid as heck visit in Phoenix. I hate humidity and it hates my lungs. I have a harder time breathing with humidity. We have friends and family in Phoenix so we go there every so often to see them. But my husband and I both agree there is just no way we could move there. We just do not like it there.
When your a Mom and you are lucky enough to find a school that you can go to online it is awesome. Also I forgot to mention their credits are transferable.
The things I prayed and asked the Lord to help me find in a school was 1. That it was Bible Based, 2. Offered online classes. 3. that they were acredited and the credits were transferable. When I set out looking for a school those were the things I wanted. I prayed that the Lord would help me find the right school. And he did. And shortly after starting the enrollment process I found out through friends that a lot of my friends have either physically attended or were online students there at some point. I also found out recently that one of my in-laws is attending there.
I called a lot of colleges and universities that offered online courses and GCU was the only one that has been nice and treated me well through the whole experience. When they say how you talk to a perspective client on the phone will determine if you get their business. They are not lying. My enrollment counselor also plans to attend the graduation ceremony. We are actually planning to go and meet him and his wife and children this summer since they do not live that far from us. GCU also has a satelite campus in Utah. And that is where he works.
Anyways trust me I did not just jump into this with my eyes closed. I am fully aware of what I am getting into. After NTCC I don't do anything without second guessing myself 100 times. And making sure it is safe before I step in. Guess I can thank NTCC for making me more Cautious!
I don't even trust people as much as I used to thanks to NTCC. Only reason I trust the Pastor and his wife (she is also a Pastor) I have now is because I have known them since I was 10 years old. And he and his wife are the sweetest loving people I have ever known. And I know from past experience that they won't betray my trust (unlike NTCC did on many occasions).
anyways.. Here in our house we speak pretty bluntly. And sometimes I forget that I have to watch how I word things on the internet. The whole no balls comment was something we say here in our house when someone is a pansy and can't stand up for themselves. I didn't think. I should have. But I got my point across anyways. All it means and I should have worded it differently is "I guess got more guts then most of the men in NTCC" The saying basically means that someone has the guts to do something and is not afraid of what the results might be.
I can for sure say I have absolutely not one ounce of respect for Davis and anyone who follows his every last single word right down to the breath he breaths. And trust me I seen all the Davis wanna be's at the NTCC compound. All dressed like him, danced like him, preached like him, rude like him, 90% of the stuff they did was just like him.
If God made us all to be special in our own unique way why are all of you in NTCC trying to be just like Davis and his wife?
Angie
to concerned minister:
while you agree that what some of the pastors/preachers do is not right (you say they will answer to God, noting that they are not answering to the leadership in ntcc), I wonder if you will bring this to their attention in your up coming conference.
wrong is wrong no matter who is doing it. right?
the preachers/pastors should have no problem with you bringing these things to their attention, as they have almost always preached to the members about standing up against the wrong to the sarge, the commander, the husband, the wife, the sinner friends, the sinner family, the boss-man, the parents et cetera. so, will you stand up to them and tell them what they have done was wrong and if they are doing it, they are wrong and they need to change?
signed, polaris
t,
The short answer to your question concerning I. Timothy 2:11-12 is this: The teaching referred to here is in direct conjunction with the theme of taking a place of authority over another. You have to notice a recurring theme in the wording, "all subjection" "suffer not a woman to teach" "nor usurp (or To seize power from another, usually by illegitimate means) authority over the man." Sister Kekel did not take that teaching position for herself, it was given to her by those in authority over the school. Men who are under her teaching are placed under her teaching by those in authority over the school, it is not by her authority nor is it by the authority of any of the other teachers.
If you take this word teach to the far literal sense to the point that you say the Bible says, no woman should teach, then the Bible has to contradict itself. Later on, Paul told Titus that the older women should teach the younger women. Did Paul contradict himself? Someone can't say that according to the Bible, women shouldn't teach. (not that you said those words, ok) Clearly, it is not a belief in NTCC that a woman can never be in a position to teach.
Secondly, you referred to a woman teaching at the Bible college as taking a job outside of the home. The teachers at the Bible college do not earn an income for what they do. It is considered a privilege to teach there. If Sis. Kekel should not be allowed to teach, then there should be all men in the Sunday school classes teaching the children, there should be only men teaching children's church, and so on.
which older women are you refereing too?
concerned minister,
I do believe that your view on this matter is a tad bit skewed because you need to justify this in your own mind.
lets look at this logically,
the context is: teach OR usurp authority over a man, naturally anyone who teaches another has a certain authority justified by the position of being the students teacher
it is logically absurd to separate the 2 and say that they may not teach at all, neither woman nor men, the context does not allow for that line of thinking
as to tanya teaching at a bible college being comparable to a lay person teaching sunday school again is a lame attempt at justifying her usurped authority
regardless if she achieved this usurpation herself or was awarded it by her father/husband is a non isssue, the point is that she is TEACHING and at the same time USURPING authority over adult men who are being trained for the ministry
they are not children waiting for there parents to get out of church
justifying this position while still allowing the thought in your own mind that a woman working a job is sin must be very burdensome
myself on the other hand, believe the exact opposite:
if a woman after discussion with her 'head' (husband) are agreed on her working it is in no way sinfull
but...if a woman should teach the BIBLE (just the bible) to grown men then she is definately usurping authority and is in opposition to the position that God has allowed her to have and is thus "missing the mark"
weather it was given to her by others or attained by her own manipulation is of no consequence other than the fact that her own husband will be the one who is held to a higher accountability by allowing it to be so
sincerely,
t
Concerned Minister said...
Secondly, you referred to a woman teaching at the Bible college as taking a job outside of the home. The teachers at the Bible college do not earn an income for what they do. It is considered a privilege to teach there. If Sis. Kekel should not be allowed to teach, then there should be all men in the Sunday school classes teaching the children, there should be only men teaching children's church, and so on.
Jeff said...
It is a job outside the home no matter how you look at it. The bible doesn't say that a woman should be a keeper at home unless she is not making money because in that case she doesn't need to be a keeper at home. Sir you just added to the bible. The bible never says anything about a woman not being authorized to make money in the home or away from the home.
Concerned Minister; You said...
If Sis. Kekel should not be allowed to teach, then there should be all men in the Sunday school classes teaching the children, there should be only men teaching children's church, and so on.
Jeff said...
The scripture states:
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man"
Sir: notice that it said "over the man". It didn't say over the "children". That kind of kills the point that you made when you suggested that if a woman shouldn't teach in the bible school that she shouldn't teach in the Sunday school either. If a woman teaches in the Bible school she would be teaching "men" not children.
The Bible didn't say that a woman couldn't teach children; once again the word "man" was used in the Bible. Of course you know this but I want to be clear. The word man means "Adult Male"; which is not a boy. There is nothing that even suggests that a woman can't teach children or usurp authority over children. It said "man".
Sir: I am right on this one for sure.
Jeff.
Oh MAN!
(couldn't resist) *wink*
Once I am done getting my degree I am sure I will be occasionally teaching men. Which I don't have a problem with.
I actually do not see any problem with a Woman teaching a Man anything.
Considering sometimes Women know more then men in certain job feilds. Heck when I was working and preparing to leave my job I had to teach/train a Man to take over my position.
And no I am not trying to start an argument here. I just do not agree with the whole women shouldn't teach a man thing.
If you are going by the rules blasted from the pulpit at NTCC Graham, etc. Rather a woman is paid or not paid to teach in the NTCC Bible school is still wrong if NTCC blasts from the pulpit that a woman should be a keeper at home. It is wrong if a woman spends more time at church with various activities then she does in her own home. Please note I am not saying it is wrong for women to preach/teach, etc. I am saying according to all the crap spewed at women in NTCC about being a keeper at home and then asked to be so busy they can't be a keeper at home is in contradiction to everything NTCC says a woman should do. So NTCC is contradicting their own rules. And they seem to do that a lot.
But anyway.....
I'm a female, what do I know?
We were all supposed to play like we are gental little sheep. Play like we are stupid and don't know anything. Do as we are told without question. Give up all our hopes and dreams for NTCC and LIKE IT!
Well...ha...If you like to be controlled 24/7/365 go for it. If you like being confused because the rules are constantly changing go for it. But I personally like to have some sort of order in my life. I don't like to have every stupid last thing in my life dictated to me. And I definately do not like rules always being changed to suit who ever happens to be at the top of the food chain so to speak.
A Pastor is supposed to be a shephard not a dictator. A Pastor is supposed to lead their flock not treat them like crap at every turn. Not bash them from the pulpit. I think Davis gets a sick pleasure from talking down to women from the pulpit.
Which brings to memory a comment he made once that made me wish I could slap him.
"If my wife ever left me she would leave with what she has on her back"
How can that man say he loves his wife and then go and say a statement like that IN SERVICE THAT HIS WIFE WAS SITTING IN? That just makes me absolutely sick! What a sick man and people still choose to bow to him as their master and come running at his call. That man has no respect for anyone. He just uses them and then chews them up and spits them out when he is done with them. He doesn't care about anyone in his life. Especially if they look at him crosseyed. God forbid anyone around him has their own thoughts or feelings or opinions. He could care less. All that matters to Davis is him being able to have control over every single last person in his life from his wife right down to the newborn babies being neglected by their Mothers because their Mothers are being guilt tripped into soul winning 4 to 5 days a week instead of being allowed to raise their children in the way they should go.
Anyone who follows after Davis is just as much a dog as he is. And Davis is a dog. And I do not mean that as a compliment at all!
Angie
angie,
just for the record: the only place that a woman not teaching a man applies is to Bible exposition, the context is set in a pastoral epistle and is laying out the guidelines for the church only
as for qualification, i think women are more than qualified and often apt to be better teachers, but that does not give us the right to intrude on God's ordained order, nor does it give men the right to have any type of superiority complex, if fact, the Bible says that "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise" that may be why he has ordained male leadership in the church
t
concerned minister said:
"Secondly, you referred to a woman teaching at the Bible college as taking a job outside of the home. The teachers at the Bible college do not earn an income for what they do. It is considered a privilege to teach there."
t said:
I suppose the same applies to ladies cleaning the kekel's home for them......its not "working" its considered a "privilege" soooo... we can now justify not paying the "help" becuase if they paid them then they would be considered "employees"
boy..semantic manipulation becomes quite easy when you get used to it
:)))
sincerely,
t
"our boat isn't sinking, this is just our new 'aquatic ventilation' system that gives us the privilege to renew the oceans depleting resources"
as we offer them lifer preservers to no avail
but a chosen few will escape...if they choose to escape...
Idaho Angie,
Your right. Us cavemen like woman and break things. You woman R smarter than us and have comon sense :)
My wife always says, "Listen to me". I always am the hardhead and proceed to do things my way and everytime something does not go as planned she states "See? I TOLD YOU to listen to ME!!"
MLJ
i thought these memorable lines from the movie would be fitting for our current line of thought:
Prince Charming: You! You can't lie! So tell me puppet... where... is... Shrek?
Pinocchio: Uh. Hmm, well, uh, I don't know where he's not
Prince Charming: You're telling me you don't know where Shrek is?
Pinocchio: It wouldn't be inaccurate to assume that I couldn't exactly not say that it is or isn't almost partially incorrect.
Prince Charming: So you do know where he is!
Pinocchio: On the contrary. I'm possibly more or less not definitely rejecting the idea that in no way with any amount of uncertainty that I undeniably
Prince Charming: Stop it!
Pinocchio: ...do or do not know where he shouldn't probably be, if that indeed wasn't where he isn't. Even if he wasn't at where I knew he was
[Pigs and Gingerbread Man begin singing]
Pinocchio: That'd mean I'd really have to know where he wasn't.
no disrespect intended, but i always find this conversation very entertaining
sincerely,
t
Idaho Angie, you stated
"I can for sure say I have absolutely not one ounce of respect for Davis and anyone who follows his every last single word right down to the breath he breaths"
What will Davis say prior to expiring? "I screwed up", "I fooled them all", "I did the best I could do", "all my riches for an extra moment of time?"
MLJ
That's exactly the type of double-speak I've heard from ntcc leaders over the years. They don't want to outright lie, but they definitely don't want to tell the truth. Funny!
Something I want to present as it's own thread someday is the fact that every wacko teaching at ntcc hinges on one thing-- that Davis SAID it was so. Why is Davis a "man of God"? because Davis SAID so. Why was ntcc created? Because Davis SAID God told him ALL the other churches are compromising. Why can't we question anything? Because Davis SAID we can't. Why can't we question where all the money goes? Because Davis SAID we can't. Why does ntcc have to live a strict, legalistic lifestyle when 98% of the other Christian churches don't? Because Davis SAID we have to.
Davis says he's never missed God. I can give you alot of examples where he DID miss God. And some of his missing God ruined families and caused harm to good people. But the bottom line is... every wacky thing, from cult tactics to guards to living in luxury, hinges on one thing-- Davis SAID it so it must be true. Well, what if he is lying? Or just outright WRONG?!
I've been wondering. Was Pop Gaylord just as much as a wack job as Davis? I heard a lot of good things about that man when I was in NTCC from people who actually knew him. But I never got to meet him since he had passed away long before I ever attended.
If Pop Gaylord was a good man, was Davis frothing at the mouth waiting for him to die so he could rule with an iron fist?
Would Pop Gaylord be "turning in his grave" so to speak right now?
Also when it comes to women and since I am one maybe I am a little biased. I do not agree with the whole feminist movement. I do think women have a right to be treated like humans and allowed to work. And do what God has called them to do. And we all know God can call anyone. And he does.
In response to MLJ,
We've been down that road before ourselves. Except I've never really had to say "I told you so", etc. There have been a few instances when praying that I knew my Husband was to prepare for something or not do something. And I would tell him and he wouldn't listen. And a few weeks or even sometimes months later he comes back to me and says "I should have listened to you." When we first got together he rarely asked for my advice on much of anything. And I don't always give him advice unless I feel God is like HELLO? DUDE? YOU THERE? Ok fine I am gonna have your wife say something. LOL. Now my Husband comes to me quite often asking me what I think, Or askes me to pray about something. He does pray. But he also knows that I offer good advice and maybe once in a while he should listen. But I've never said "I told you so" or anything similar. Because I know it will just irritate him.
Plus Mamma didn't raise no fool. I listened to all the advice she offered when it came to marriage and being a wife. Some of it I haven't used because it wasn't or hasn't been necessary. Plus I watched how she and my Dad treated each other. They had their arguments as most couples do. But they did and still do treat each other with respect and they looked and still do look at their marriage as a partnership.
I know a lot of women in NTCC do not have the luxury (and it would be a luxury to them) to have their husbands treat their marriage like a partnership instead of a dictatorship.
Being repressed and opressed really does suck. And some women have learned to live with it. They don't realize they deserve to be treated like a human and not the family pet. Of course some men in NTCC treat their family pets better then they treat their wives. So I guess we can't really use that comparison.
I gotta run Mom duties require me to drive the kids to school.
I'll check in later!
God bless,
Angie
Angie,
I knew Mom & Pop Gaylord very well. They were pastoring in Augusta, Ga. when i was in the Army in 1982. I am happy to report that they were two of the most decent, loving Christians I ever met. They were the real deal. They were not abusive, manipulative or anything else. They were holiness Pentecostals to the core, but were just like grandparents, as far as I was concerned.
I never could understand why they hooked up with Davis. They had a great burden to reach soldiers with the gospel. So they created the Servicemen's Home. He had been a Master Sgt. in the Air Force when he got saved. I think his first church was in Japan. Anyway, they went to the Philippines in the 60's and somehow met the Davis'. I don't know all the details, but I believe at the time that avis had convinced the Gaylords that God was going to start a great "end-time" movement with ntcc, and the Gaylords thought Davis could be a leader they could follow. At the same time, the Gaylords brought their knowledge of working with soldiers and military bases, which appealed to Davis. Together they built ntcc, but really 90% of ntcc was Servicemen's Homes, which was Gaylord's idea. Infact, if it weren't for the servicemen's home and all the young GI's they reached (like me), there would be no ntcc-- because they wouldn't have the money.
I sat in many church services and Davis classes, where I felt that the Gaylord were not happy with Davis and how he treated people, but yet they stuck it out. Maybe it was because they were loyal people. To their credit, they were good, godly people and I remember them fondly. I wish they had run ntcc instead of Davis.
Perfect example of why people like Davis are allowed to continue their crap. Because no one stands up to them and puts them in their place.
I'm sure thats why he left whatever organization he was with before NTCC because someone put him in his place and he didn't like it.
I don't understand how people can just sit there and take crap and not say nothing. Heck I have even put my mother-in-law in her place a few times. Woman thought and still does think she owns me because I married her son.
Course Hubby made her mad by showing her the scripture that says a man is to leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife (Genesis 2:24; Matt 19;5; Mark 10:7). OOOH that fired her up. Because she thinks her kids are her personal slaves. Wow maybe she should marry Davis she acts just like him!
Anyways. I would have loved to of met the Gaylords. Guess I'll have to wait until the Lord returns huh?
And your right had it not been for the servicements homes NTCC would be nothing. There was an NTCC right outsid the Camp Pendleton Marine Corps base when we lived there. When hubby was in the marines. But we never went and we never were invited. Infact I don't recall ever seeing an NTCCer when we were stationed there. I ran into them when I lived in Washington though.
Everytime I run into someone who is getting ready to go into boot camp I warn them about NTCC. I don't want them going through what I went through. Trying to save them from suffering unnecessary unneeded pain.
t,
I respectfully disagree with the premise of your response based on the dictionary definition of usurp according to Miriam Webster.
Usurp
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French usorper, from Latin usurpare to take possession of without legal claim.
1 a: to seize and hold (as office, place, or powers) in possession by force or without right b: to take or make use of without right 2: to take the place of by or as if by force : supplant
Also, based on your statement concerning the word “or;” it never appears in the text. Look at it again, it says nor. It is clear that what you want is not an answer, but a debate. I will not debate you on this subject as I will not debate Jeff concerning his belief that married women should be allowed to work on a job outside of the home.
Jeff,
If we strictly adhere to your logic about something being a job whether you get paid or not, should a sister play a piano in service? Should we assume that volunteer work is out of the question? Should we come to the conclusion that the woman should never leave the home to do anything for someone? These are all rhetorical questions by the way.
Casey,
You were around for several years. Were you actually fooled for all those years, or did you realize that something was wrong? Of course, I don’t believe either of those things, I just wonder how someone supports a belief for so many years, and then when they depart from the organization that espouses that belief, they do a 180.
Polaris,
The only problem with me going to conference to address these issues is that I am not witness to them. The people who are directly involved in these situations are the ones who need to be addressing them. I don’t believe the leadership in NTCC is unfair, they will listen to legitimate claims. In the place where I am now, there is no such need to address anything because none of these things that are being mentioned are taking place.
-concerned minister NTCC
concerned minister,
all kidding aside-
i must say that although i have a somewhat strange sense of humor i did not mean any cruelty or unkindness and i am in no way looking for a 'debate'
my questions to you are dead honest
now here is the problem i have with your last response:
you claim that according to the dictionary these 2 words are not connected, yet i looked them up in 'Thayer's Lexicon of the Greek New Testament' and the word "nor" simply acts as a conjunction in the greek, thus linking the 2 words together
in all actuality according to thayer the greek could read thus:
"but i do not permit the woman to teach doctrine or rule over the men, but to quietly learn from the men while not meddling in the affairs of church leadership"
that is about as literal as you can get.
does that rendering change your mind at all?
i have always wondered why ntcc ministers failed to use biblical tools when interpreting scripture, they tend to use the dictionary only which in does not always give a proper understanding of the greek text
i used to think it was laziness and lack of proper study skills but now i believe they have brain washed so as not to be allowed to contemplate other avenues of thougt or opinion
sincerely,
t
to concerned minister:
okay. then is there no point in relating things to you because you are not a first hand witness.
what difference are you hoping to make here? just wondering.
signed, polaris
to concerned minister:
but wait a minute. there are things you DO know about. did you admit you are aware of how some of the pastors/preachers are and how they treat others?
so you can "know" about something, and know it to be true, but you can't do anything because you didn't see it for yourself. is that the gist of it?
signed, polaris
Angie,
Let me explain how someone like Davis gets away with things all his life:
1. Proclaim loudly and with God's supposed authority that God made YOU a man of God.
2. Surround yourself with loyal lapdogs that will attack anyone who even remotely questions that statement.
3. Fill your church with young GI's that are used to taking orders and are told that questioning anything that the "man of God" says or does, means YOU have a problem with God, and you need to repent.
4. If someone does get the guts to stand up to the abuse, lies or wrongdoing-- loudly proclaim in a church service that they are of the devil, and RUN THEM OFF!
That ought to do it........
"The teachers at the Bible college do not earn an income for what they do."
This was true when I started teaching, but then they started paying teachers; has this changed? Casey, didn't you get paid?
"You were around for several years. Were you actually fooled for all those years, or did you realize that something was wrong? Of course, I don’t believe either of those things, I just wonder how someone supports a belief for so many years, and then when they depart from the organization that espouses that belief, they do a 180."
You, like all victims of mind control, are completely ignorant of its mechanisms. They don't become apparent until one leaves the fog.
Concerned minister,
Let me explain how someone who was in for as long as I was can do a 180.
I got saved in a Servicemen's Home when I was 20. I never went to church or read the Bible before. I believed everything that I was taught, even if it seemed far fetched. Over time I desired to be a minister for God, so I went to bs in St. Louis, where I was trained as a minister for ntcc. For many years I DID believe that what they taught was correct. I myself taught it, and I found scriptures that apparently backed it up. Over the years though, little things began to bother me. For example, I began to notice that we taught things that the Bible didn't "explicitly" say was a sin (like a woman working on a job)(or even cigarettes for that matter), but I felt at the time that it was better to be overboard than to be "worldly". Then over more time (through observation, personal experience, and meeting Christians from other denominations) I wondered how they could be Christians and not have to do what we did. In fact, I met people I was sure were Christians, and was sure God was with, who didn't live a "holiness" life. It made me wonder, but I kept plugging along. Then finally, a couple years before I left, it began to eat at me how our church (ntcc) taught we had to live this strict Christian life, when at the same time they were splitting up marriages, running good people off, having double standards, and not showing the love of God. It was then that the "holiness" stuff began to be in question and lose it's appeal. I began to meet some of the best Christians I ever knew, and they weren't holiness. Then I began to read the Bible more open-minded and began to realize that many things that are taught as concrete facts in ntcc really aren't that concrete in the Bible. There is room for interpretation. Ntcc sees the world as "black & white"; "you're either for God or against God". But, my experience has been that the world ISN'T black and white; and there is alot of in-between. Couple that with my disillusionment with ntcc, and that's all she wrote. I now believe that God is much more concerned with how we treat other people, and how much we show God's love to people, than to how we dress.
Vic,
We got paid $25/class per week, or something like that.
Polaris,
All I'm saying is that I am not a first hand witness to these accusations. I can't appropriately present them as fact. Can you imagine someone saying to the leadership of NTCC that they read on a blog that someone was mistreated by a minister in NTCC? That wouldn't go over well in a secular setting any more than it woud in NTCC.
For example, someone tells me they saw you drink yourself under the table in a bar. I wouldn't pass that information on as fact because I wasn't there. I am not a witness to that event.
What do I hope to accomplish? I want to let people know that, although there may be abusive practices going on in NTCC, there are those who are not engaging in those practices. I want people to know that there are ministers in NTCC who look down on those practices.
-concerned minister NTCC
right, there are those who do not engage in those practices and there are those who look down on those who engage in those practices, and there are those who know about those practices and do nothing about them.
the examples that have been relayed here are not just from ONE person. it is not a he said she said. it is corrobrated by more tham one witness (other than yourself) who do not know one another and have no gain by conspiring stories.
I mean, you could just ask, investigate for yourself, seeing as you are concerned.
surely, this isn't the only place you have heard of these things.
signed, polaris
Again no back bone.
NTCC Minister I wouldn't mind at all getting together with a group of people who have left NTCC and all of us relating our stories for you or an Attorney or even for a TV News Crew.
Even with people that were in NTCC a whole lot longer then me it is funny how we all have basically the same story to tell. If it isn't going on or you haven't witnessed it then we all must be dreaming it up then getting together and adding to the story right?
You knowing about what is going on or has gone on and not saying anything about it is just as bad as a Mother who knows her children are being abused by their father and doing nothing about it. And you know what happens to Moms who do not defend their children when they knew about the abuse? When the court system gets ahold of them they go to Jail because they did NOTHING to protect their children. So they are just as guilty of the abuse as the person who is doing the abusing.
You might want to think about that.
You doing nothing even though you know about it makes you just as guilty as the person(s) doing the abusing.
Your not just a witness your an accessory to character murder! You think God likes that you just stand there knowing and watching and yet you do nothing? By you not doing anything you by pure association are complacent, and it shows that you approve of what is going on. The word I am looking for is....Condone...By you doing nothing to protect those being hurt you are condoning it.
Concerned Said...
If we strictly adhere to your logic about something being a job whether you get paid or not, should a sister play a piano in service? Should we assume that volunteer work is out of the question? Should we come to the conclusion that the woman should never leave the home to do anything for someone? These are all rhetorical questions by the way.
Jeff said...
Of course not, we shouldn't assume that volunteer work or any other work is out of the question. That is exactly my point. Sir you just justified my point with your rhetorical question. I am not the one suggesting that it is unlawful for a woman to have a job whether for pay or not for pay. That is what the NTCC teaches; not the Bible and not me. Women should be able to play the piano and they should be able to leave the home. Once again being a keeper at home means to be domestically inclined. That means that the women has the tendency to spend time around her house. It does not mean that she can't leave the house and it does not mean that she can't work.
The point that we are making is that the NTCC wants to put certain restrictions on women based on one scripture;"keeper at home" but the NTCC has selectively avoided placing other restrictions on women based on a more specific and quantifiably valid scripture namely; the need to not suffer a woman to teach a man.
It is a classic example of pick and choose. The NTCC has chosen to erroneously interpret one scripture to suit their own personal agenda and completely ignore a different scripture once again to suit their own personal agenda.
Jeff.
Concerned Minister said...
What do I hope to accomplish? I want to let people know that, although there may be abusive practices going on in NTCC, there are those who are not engaging in those practices. I want people to know that there are ministers in NTCC who look down on those practices.
Jeff said...
Mr. Minister: I am going to rewrite a portion of what you wrote but just in a different way. This is essentially what you are saying in my opinion. For the record, "This is just Jeff's opinion and certainly not fact"
Jeff's rendition of what Concerned Minister was saying:
I want to let people know that although their may be rapists in the house, there are those who live in the same house who are not raping anyone. There are people living in the same house who look down on the rapists who live there with them. We know that rapes take place in the house but we are not going to leave the house because we are not the ones doing the raping. We won't do anything about it because we are going to let God work it out. It is not our business so therefor we have no other alternative but to turn a blind eye despite a great body of evidence given by far more than one witness. We will pray for the rapists.
Jeff.
From Mike Kekel's Blog (Updated) note: he does NOT deny going to the Bluegrass festival!!!
MLJ
Many years ago when our son was small, we took him to Frontier Park in Graham, WA. We noticed a dog show going on nearby, so we wandered over to watch. After a few minutes of witnessing the interaction of the people with their pets, it became clear to me that it was time to leave. (Why Mike? They did not clean up after the dogs??) I was uncomfortable and troubled in my spirit by the atmosphere. (likewise I in NTCC)
Another time a few years ago we went to an annual event in Tacoma called Wintergrass; (Just call it what it is Mike - You went to a bluegrass festival. God forbid this was on a Church night!! Did you pray about it, did it seem right to God to do it??) basically one hour (Why do you feel compelled to tell us it was ONLY one hour?? Guilty??) acoustic music lessons/workshops taught by professionals. Iʼve played guitar since 1966 and Iʼm always trying to improve, so it was an absolute treat for me to listen to these pros play and teach.
Later in the evening (You contradict yourself Mike - normally in the evening your at Church, right? Lets see - you went at 6:00 PM and the sun went down exactly ONE hour later, riiggghhhtttt) when things started jumping, and started to get crazy,
we looked at each other and said something like, “letʼs get out of here!” These are just 2 examples of many kinds of situations that we as Christians may find ourselves in and no one can hit the brakes but us! (Your right Mike, that is why I left NTCC. I HIT THE BRAKES!!)
Here’s another scenario; Restaurants that serve alcohol (trying to0 justify an earlier post). If you refuse to eat at such places, youʼre left with McDonalds and the BK; but the environment is quite different on Tuesday afternoon than it is on Friday or Saturday evening when the crowd is rockinʼ and prowlinʼ. (Rockin and Prowling, kind of reminds me of your courtship with Tanya Kekel) So then, is it the PRESENCE of alcohol, or the activities INVOLVING it that is wrong? For that matter, alcohol is present at the supermarket, but walking near it should not be a temptation for a Christian. If there is no lust (desire) for it in your heart, there should be no temptation (James 1:14-15)- “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” Even if you WERE tempted by it, you still have a brake pedal beneath your foot. Use it! If a certain place put you in a position to be tempted, then you should avoid even going there.
I Thess. 5 (22) “ Abstain from all appearance of evil.” (Exactly Mike, that is why I do not tithe at NTCC!!!!)
MLJ
Just so this doesn't get over looked. And because I feel the need to be a tad bit annoying...
This is to NTCC Minister and I am copying and pasting exactly what I said again. So again it does not get over looked.
You knowing about what is going on or has gone on and not saying anything about it is just as bad as a Mother who knows her children are being abused by their father and doing nothing about it. And you know what happens to Moms who do not defend their children when they knew about the abuse? When the court system gets ahold of them they go to Jail because they did NOTHING to protect their children. So they are just as guilty of the abuse as the person who is doing the abusing.
You might want to think about that.
You doing nothing even though you know about it makes you just as guilty as the person(s) doing the abusing.
Your not just a witness your an accessory to character murder! You think God likes that you just stand there knowing and watching and yet you do nothing? By you not doing anything you by pure association are complacent, and it shows that you approve of what is going on. The word I am looking for is....Condone...By you doing nothing to protect those being hurt you are condoning it.
Idaho Angie, you stated,
"You doing nothing even though you know about it makes you just as guilty as the person(s) doing the abusing".
It is also called Guilty By Association. That is what category Mike Kekel puts himslef in when he attends Bluegrass festivals to learn how to play the guitar, even AFTER 40 years of practice.
Why not get together with other Musicians who have talent within NTCC, Mike?? Your GUILTY by association. You desire the things of the world, to be like the world, but when things start as you stated earlier, "things started jumping, and started to get crazy". Mike , you ALREADY know what tends to happen at these events when alcohol is not only present but consumed by the gallon,
Why Mike in the name of God place yourself in that situation from the start. That would be like me going to Hooters. Like I really go there just to eat the Wings. Riigghhhhttt.
MLJ
Concerned (I hope) Minister in NTCC
You stated earlier"
"For example, someone tells me they saw you drink yourself under the table in a bar. I wouldn't pass that information on as fact because I wasn't there. I am not a witness to that event".
Get ready to get your field plowed, you just opened up a can of worms here and I will be as tactful as possible.
You stated "I wouldn't pass that information on as fact because I wasn't there. I am not a witness to that event".
Do you realize what you just stated? I will state it again. Did you not state "I wouldn't pass that information on as fact because I wasn't there. I am not a witness to that event".
Sir, your credentials as a minster are in question. Do you follow the same thought process when explaining Salvation to a nonbeliever?
You did not see Jesus die on the cross. You did not see Jesus rise from the dead. SO HOW CAN YOU PASS THE INFORMATION ON AS FACT OF THE DEATH AND RESSURECTION OF JESUS CHRIST IF YOU WERE NOT THERE? Did you not state that "YOU WERE NOT A WITNESS TO THAT EVENT"
Jesus stated in the BIBLE, since you were not there at that time to see Him rise from the Dead "Blessed are they that have not seen, and YET have believed" (John 20:29)
Sir, you have a multitude of believers stating the same abuses at the church. More than one witness. You have multitudes of witnesses. We are talking about mental, physical, emotional and financial abuse. Countless lives ruined beyond repair. Countless other concerened formal and current Ministers bankrupt (though they will not tell you do to their pride; no minister in NTCC is going to tell you outright he is broke, but when you go to conference, pay attention who goes out to eat) due to splitting hair NTCC policies. Keep an open mind. You will find that you cannot deny the truth. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established.
Sir, You may be naive to the abuses going on. There is a cancer in NTCC and it is rotting out the flesh daily. The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
I encourage you to pray about what you have read and heard, and let God expose NTCC to you for what it really is. Did not God tell us that He will give us the desires of our hearts??
My marriage was almost ruined by NTCC, read the blogs and you'll find out all about me. I was almost in the Seminary door, so to speak.
Guess what? My wife's Christianity puts Mike Kekel to shame. She is reading the Bible right now. She has read the whole Bible, KJV, and she is Korean already, and she is reading it again. Her goal is to be finished by Easter. She is in the Book of Acts now. She has more holiness in her than Kekel and Davis combined. AND she is the keeper of my house.
OK I am off my preacher's soapbox. Have a blessed day!!
Bro Johnson
Honestly and I am not trying to be rude here. The whole music issue is small compared to how people are treated and it being allowed to happen.
Knowing what is going on and not doing anything about it is just plain wrong. And yes you are guilty by association if you know people are being miss treated and do nothing about it. That is the whole point I am getting at.
But I can understand the whole music issue. But it is a small issue in my eyes compaired to how people are treated.
I honestly could care less if Kekel goes to a bluegrass event. It doesn't bother me at all.
How people are treated does bother me.
Hope your not offended by my comment!
Have a good night, Idaho Angie,
I enjoy reading your posts.
:)
MLJ
I have an ethical question for everyone here. Is it morally right for a woman to quit working even when the consequences are for the family to go on food stamps, file bankruptcy, or for her not to pay child support? Yes this has actually happened in NTCC. I am not being judgmental, just curious.
Waiting to Exhale
No it isn't right. And NTCC is 100% wrong!
Jeff,
Hope you don't mind. But I felt like posting the lyrics to a song that has been a great big help for me since I left NTCC.
The Voice of Truth by Casting Crowns
Oh,what I would do to have
the kind of faith it takes
To climb out of this boat I'm in
Onto the crashing waves
To step out of my comfort zone
Into the realm of the unknown
Where Jesus is,
And he's holding out his hand
But the waves are calling out my name
and they laugh at me
Reminding me of all the times
I've tried before and failed
The waves they keep on telling me
time and time again
"Boy, you'll never win,
you'll never win."
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
the voice of truth says "do not be afraid!"
and the voice of truth says "this is for my glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
Oh, what I would do
to have the kind of strength it takes
To stand before a giant
with just a sling and a stone
Surrounded by the sound
of a thousand warriors
shaking in their armor
Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand
But the giant's calling out
my name and he laughs at me
Reminding me of all the times
I've tried before and failed
The giant keeps on telling me
time and time again
"Boy you'll never win,
you'll never win."
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
the voice of truth says "do not be afraid!"
and the voice of truth says "this is for my glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
But the stone was just the right size
to put the giant on the ground
and the waves they don't seem so high
from on top of them looking down
I will soar with the wings of eagles
when I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus
singing over me
But the voice of truth tells me a different story
The voice of truth says "do not be afraid"
And the voice of truth says "this is for my glory"
Out of all the voices calling out to me (calling out to me)
I will choose to listen and believe (I will choose to listen and believe)
I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth
I will listen and believe
I will listen and believe the voice of truth
I will listen and believe
'Cause Jesus you are the voice of truth
And I will listen to you.. oh you are
I love that song by Casting Crowns! And I don't care for much contemporary Christian music. :-) And no, my lack of dislike for CC music has nothing to do with my time spent in NTCC....just never cared for the beat / tempo / rythym of it.
YAH Bless ~
Dawn
has anybody read Kekel's blog this morning?
man....what a HYPOCRITE!!!!!
i suppose its easy to be self-righteous and condescending when your conscience is deadened to your own sin and the game is fixed in your favor....why change, god is blessing!!!???
in his subtle and beguiling way he "answered all the critics about his trip to the blue grass festival and how how they must escape the presence of such sinners (as all good pharisees)
then he has the gall to use the "appearance of evil" vs to scold others
while he accepts a gift from a non-profit organization worth 400k, hmmm....no appearance of evil there!
to you who worked and earned that money that was DONATED to purchase that land, his anser is: "it wasnt illegal"
in other words- "don't ask me!!! cant you see GAWD has blessed me? your just a loser who must be in sin, thats why your jealous and god hasnt blessed you"
the whole sanctimonious attitude makes me sick to my stomach
remember people, the next time your considering attending a dog show, think to yourself "wwjd"
i hear they are wild places of debauchery
t
dawn,
do you have any problem with ntcc?
just curious
t
Slow down bro Johnson, you said:
You did not see Jesus die on the cross. You did not see Jesus rise from the dead. SO HOW CAN YOU PASS THE INFORMATION ON AS FACT OF THE DEATH AND RESSURECTION OF JESUS CHRIST IF YOU WERE NOT THERE? Did you not state that "YOU WERE NOT A WITNESS TO THAT EVENT"
We are all witnesses to the life changing power of Jesus Christ when we get saved. If you can't say you are a witness of Him and His salvation, you have to question your salvation. What would seeing Jesus die and rise again prove to anyone? The pharisees saw it and did not believe. There were many witnesses to the actual events that happened that were not witness to the salvation that these events produced.
-concerned minister NTCC
To AngieIdaho,
I love that song! I first heard it when I began my exodus from hop. boy did it fit.
To WTE:
I think it depends on that persons' motives and reasons. would you by any chance know why she is compelled to do those things?
signed, polaris
in referecne to kekle's blog:
he may be trying to put to rest all the "issues" that have been brought up before their conference rolls around later this month.
that way he won't feel obligated to answer them at that time.
signed, polaris
T ~
Nope, no problems...
The past is just that...the past...and I intend to keep it back there. =)
YAH Bless!
Hey concerned minister!
how come your answering him and not me?
you only take the easy questions?
sorry mlj, but i didnt see the relevance in your question on that particular topic either : (
t
Angie,
I have wondered why, if there is so much evidence of abuse within our churches, perpetrated by our pastors, no one takes the evidence to the news papers or even tv news. If you are referring to me having no backbone, I'm here putting myself out there for all of you to attack and malign. I have not attacked anyone on this blog. I have reacted to your statements to let you know where I stand. No backbone? C'mon!
You said:
"You doing nothing even though you know about it makes you just as guilty as the person(s) doing the abusing."
Will you report your experiences to a news outlet? Will you go to the local newspapers in the areas of all NTCC churches? They're easy to find, just go to the NTCC website. Another thing I wonder about: why don't these things get reported to the many groups who investigate cults? Don't you think that if NTCC were to be included in the lists of cults out there, you might have more leverage?
I am not direct witness to any of the things that people complain about on these blogs. My point is that if these things are occurring, the people doing these things are wrong. I did have Dennis as a pastor for a short period of time. There, and only there, did I witness some of the things spoken of here. He was wrong, and he is gone. I don't even talk about him anymore. I don't know if he is still involved in the same tactics where he is now.
-concerned minister NTCC
Sorry t, I must have missed it. Answering all of your questions on this blog is a full time job. Wait, I think I did answer some of your questions... oh well. Do you realize how time consuming this is? Not my idea of a day well spent.
-concerned minister NTCC
Actually t, you are wrong about nor just linking the two words together. The word was translated from the original, Oude, meaning: but not, neither, nor, not even.
-concerned minister NTCC
"If you are referring to me having no backbone, I'm here putting myself out there for all of you to attack and malign."
You make me laugh, Mr. Anonymous BS Minister--if your backbone was any stronger than jello, we'd have an actual name from you. Quit huffing and puffing about your big courage when you can't even get it up enough to identify yourself. Don't you realize how absurd you sound? You not only don't have the backbone to stand up to your leaders, you don't even want them to know you're posting here. RW has already stated his opinion of you for doing so, and it rhymes with Cupid. If you have such a high opinion of him, and believe, as you have said, that he walks with God, it seems you would respect his wishes (But I'm glad you don't). Did you take lessons for Whirlwind, or what?
concerned minister,
with all due respect, i have posted my sources(thayer greek lexicon) you have not posted yours
i highly doubt that you are an expert in biblical greek so to just say "sorry your wrong" just isnt going to hold water here
even if the word could go either way what it does is validates my argument because your argument is one that requires exclusivity
please be good enough to post your resources
thanks,
t
concerned minister,
ultimately, paul is saying that the church should not recognize women as those having authority in the church regarding matters of doctrine and scriptural interpretation (unless your the apostle's daughter :) )
my point is that its hypocritical to hold such a tight interpretation of titus 2:5 and then on the other hand have such a "loose" interpretation of 1tim 2:12 it seems that its all in accordance with making the unacceptable acceptable so as to justify your churches spurious teachings
there really is no getting around the fact that ntcc teaches strange and twisted doctrines
meanwhile becuase the members have chosen to believe a lie regarding doctrine they have no problem accepting the hypocrisy of the leadership and the blatant misuse of funds and of people
sorry, this is the truth and you well know it
t
a hard cold fact:
mck has taken a "gift" of land from a non-profit (as well as prophet) organization. this has been documented as illegal by a member of this blog.
if mr kekel were a true upstanding christian he would not put his follower in the circumstance of having to believe "good" about something evil
he can say all he wants that "god has blessed me" but that in no way justifies his acceptance of an illegal gift
anyone with a conscience would at least give the land back to the organization and explain the mis-understanding
he boldness of accepting this gift is by all means a dead give away of his purpose in this organization: to acquire wealth for himself and tanya
there is no way around this fact- he will not deal with this issue
t
NTCC Minister,
I don't mean to insult you but if what I said is bothering you then maybe you are feeling a tab bit convicted?
Hun I live in Idaho I am not going to waste the time/minutes on my cell to call a TV station in Washington state. If everyone who ever left NTCC decides to get together and see if they can get their story told then I will join the cause. Otherwise the internet works just fine and dandy for me.
As for posting online. This is just as good a place as any. When doing a search with NTCC (the full name not the initials) in the search engine, this blog as well as a few others pop up including the NTCC website (which might I add I could have done a better job on. Looks like a 10 year old threw it together and it hasn't been updated in forever). There is also factnet. Which I will admit I haven't been there in well over 2 years. I don't care to either. No offense to those who post on factnet I just don't care for how things are/were handled on factnet.
As for you hearing these reports and only seeing them when around Denis (is that how you spell it?) I know most of the people who post on this blog and Tracy's blog never went to the same church I did at the same time. We all left from different NTCC churches. We all lived in different states (minus a few of us who left when we lived in Washington state but we didn't go to the same NTCC).
The abuse is there. Even at the Graham compound. I witnessed it myself on several occasions when visiting. And it came directly from the pulpit.
I suppose when you are in Graham (if that is where your at) or Confrence that it doesn't bother you that instead of hearing preaching you hear Davis or Kekel whinning about the "sinner net" or jacking people up? I'm sorry but when I go to church or a church confrence I want to hear preaching. I don't want to hear people getting jacked up or the pastor complaining bout the internet or DVD's.
And just so you know if you dont SEE something happening doesn't mean it isn't happening. You know how many people took the abuse that wasn't seen for years and never even said anything to anyone because they didn't want to be jacked up at the next service infront of the whole congregation? And now that they are out they are saying something? Davis has all of NTCC so stinking brain washed if 100 people from his own Graham compound came and told him they were sick of how they were being treated he would have the rest of the church hissing at them and calling them the devil and those 100 people would leave with their hearts and lives damaged and all their friends would quit talking to them because they LEFT GOD as Davis likes to say of anyone who has left.
I'm sorry but NTCC is NOT the TRUE and ONLY CHURCH for today. And if you leave NTCC you are NOT leaving GOD! Davis is NOT GOD and never will be GOD! He is just another man out for having his way and he gets it because no one stands up for those people who he is treating like crap and if he hasn't bothered to get off his duff and make sure all the NTCC churches that Denis had an affect on have the way they are doing things changed then that shows that he really doesn't give a crap.
WWJD (what would Jesus DO?) I'm sure he would rampage through Davis's cult like he did when he ran through the temple over turning tables, etc.
I remember him coming to the woodbrook church. I don't remember his exact wording but I do remember that he said how things were done were how Denis wanted it done and he didn't like it. Well Davis left and nothing changed.
So that goes to show you even though Denis is gone Davis likes how bad all those people are treated. And it doesn't just happen in woodbrook. It happens all over the world. Some NTCC churchs might be exempt but I am pretty sure it is a small amount compared to the ones that go about distroying lives on a daily basis all in the name of NTCC and a man who isn't even with NTCC and Davis hasn't bothered to change how things are done. Because he doesn't care and he likes it.
Guilty by association. Well Anyone who knows of the abuses happening urrently in NTCC and they are currently in NTCC and do nothing about it they are just as guilty as the people doing the damage.
NTCC Minister if you are not like all the other preachers in NTCC who have damaged so many peoples lives maybe you will be the person who slowly turns it all around either that or in time you will get sick of the abuse you see and finally admit you are seeing it and you will leave.
I honestly pray that all the wrong in NTCC is dug out and that God will actually be able to use NTCC for the good. But God isn't gonna move in until all the wrong people move out.
Angie
Concerned Minister said...
I did have Dennis as a pastor for a short period of time. There, and only there, did I witness some of the things spoken of here. He was wrong, and he is gone. I don't even talk about him anymore. I don't know if he is still involved in the same tactics where he is now.
Jeff said...
Sir the impression that you and every other current minister that I know gives it that everyone knew that Denis was abusive and hypocritical. If Denis's shortcomings were so apparent, than why did he reach so many levels of authority in your organization? Please answer the question.
Denis was a hero to everyone that I ever talked to in the NTCC prior to his departure. Hunt said he was great; Mayers said he was great; RWD thought he was great and that is why RWD promoted him to the position of overseer and servicemen's home director. Immediately after the split he suddenly became the devil. No one dared say a word about Denis until after the split. That is weak and pathetic.
That is not the way I operate. Just so you know I talked to Kekel on the phone about 1 month ago. He admitted to me that S. Mayers, the pastor in Atlanta was and is a problem pastor. I talked to three different overseers years ago about Mayers and nothing was done. If I had a problem with someone in the NTCC I complained about it to someone in authority because I am not weak. You guys had nothing to say about Denis but good things right up until the day that he left. That is so weak. If anyone ever did say anything about Denis than why wasn't he ever removed? Now you all are using Denis as your scapegoat but you guys don't have enough back bone to speak against your own people. It is easy to speak against Denis now because he is gone.
You all need to read the book of Esther and get a lesson on standing up for what is right. No one ran Denis off; he left on his own. No one would have ran him off and he would still be a hero today if he hadn't left ON HIS OWN because non of you all had the back bone to speak against him and that Sir is a fact.
Man all I ever heard about Denis was how great he was from lody dody and every body without one exception.
Sir your statement, and Kekels statement to me, and RWDs statement, and Hunts statement to me, and Jones statement to me, and M. Reeds statement to me about Denis after he had already left was a classic example of Monday night quarterbacking. Sir; once again that is totally weak.
Jeffrey Collins.
But God isn't gonna move in until all the wrong people move out.
Angie
Your right, Angie, because the Spirit of God is quenched at NTCC.
MLJ
Wow! Alot of activity in a short time on this topic.
Ironic this is being discussed the same week Dr. Laura is out promoting her new book in defense of stay at home moms.
Now scripture talks about sin and weight. Heb 12:1 It admonishes us to lay them both aside. Sin is essentially a missing of the mark. Have we missed God's purpose and design? A weight are those things / life styles that lend themselves toward sin.
The Bible is very explicit at times what sin is and at other times it is very open and vague. The American chruch scene has bought in to the post modern trend nad is guilty of understating God's truth. This is known as compromise. The Bible teaches us we are not to add nor take away from it. The American church generally takes away from God's word. NTCC has a tendency to overstate what the Bible says. This is as much a compromise as taking away. When a person rejects what has been overstated they inevitably reject foundational principles of God's word. I think that is happening here.
Jeff, if to be domestically inclined is a specific admonition for a woman, how far can she venture beyond her domestic responsibilities prior to violating her obligation?
What our culture has done today is blurred the distinction between the genders. God designed men and women to fulfill different roles. This is manifested domestically and within the church.
Prov. 31 nevers states that the wife is working on a job. It is praising her for her industry. It is also explicit in how she is doing it all to make sure those who inhabit her home are taken care of. She is being domestically inclined.
T,
The 1 Cor 11. hair issue or the issue of women keeping silent in the church has nothing to do with cultural issues. It has everything to do with the priority of creation and the nature of the fall. NTCC's official understanding about women in ministry is that they must serve underneath that ministry of a man. So they could not be a pastor. They can preach, teach, etc.
More can be said but it is so important not to take only one verse of scripture and run with it.
As to will a owmen go to hell for working on a job? No, condemnation comes from rejecting Christ. That does not mean it is not imperative for a Christian lady to embrace her biblically mandated roles.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
Note: I'm not the "concerned minister". I'm not sure if that was clear to Vic.
Angie,
Nothing you said "bothers" me, so to speak. It is interesting, how things get mixed up in our minds when we have been away for a while. You said at one point, in another thread, that you heard Pastor Davis say 100 times that he had never sinned since he had been saved. The interesting thing about that is I never heard him say that once, in fact, I heard him say that if someone says they haven't sinned since they got saved, they are lying. Let's try to keep our facts straight and not exaggerate, ok?
-concerned minister NTCC
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. said,
Wow! Alot of activity in a short time on this topic.
I know... isn't it interesting how a thread comes to life when one of us starts posting to it? It's like they all come out of the woodwork after us. Why do you suppose that is? A lot of what I say on this blog agrees with their complaints and speaks of how abuse should not be happening in the way it unfortunately has. Yet, all I get is attack after attack.
Vic ridicules us, (thinking we are the same person,) and bemoans the fact that we haven't given our names, while he would just as quickly defend those who attack NTCC who don't even so much as leave a sign off. Very interesting.
-concerned minister NTCC
ntcc minister,
i am not sure i am following you....i have elaborated quite a over the last couple days and i think you may be taking my statement out of context.
as you both know, of all people on the blog i am the one who consistently tries to keep scripture in its true context and true meaning
(if you haven't been previously brain washed its really not that difficult)
i have been having lengthy discussions with my ntcc relative regarding 'the gap theory'
do either of you two still hold to that unnecessary theory still?
i know its a little off topic, but does ntcc 'require' you fellows to believe it?
its probably the easiest thing to turn away from seeing that it is totally outdated and of no use now that christian scientist have surpassed secular scientist in their understanding
i would like to know both of your views on this matter
my relative holds to it ignorantly even after seeing and hearing tons of evidence to the contrary
just wondering!!
thanks,
t
I do hold to the gap theory. I believe it better agrees with general revelation than young earth or day age.
NTCC Minister, B.S., M.A.
"Vic ridicules us, (thinking we are the same person,) and bemoans the fact that we haven't given our names, while he would just as quickly defend those who attack NTCC who don't even so much as leave a sign off. Very interesting."
Please forgive my confusion; it's difficult to keep track of you faceless ministers. But don't you think it's a bit rich to claim to be "putting myself out there for all of you to attack and malign," and citing anonymous posts as evidence of backbone? Please!
I deliberately chose to post with my real name from the very beginning on FACTnet, knowing that I was in truth "putting myself out there" for such attacks as the pusillanimous Whirlwind, George Jordan, Robert Briggs, and others dished out (some of whom at least did have the guts to be upfront about their identities, although they've all withered up and vanished after their master made his opinion known). I did it because I'm no longer afraid of NTCC's attack dog ways, and because it signified the disappearance of the last vestiges of the org leadership's control over my life. Why should I condemn the damaged people who've escaped your "church" for not having arrived at that place yet? It took me better than ten years, and I understand their trepidation.
It is evident that you don't use your names because you still operate under fear of discovery. If NTCC was a healthy environment, that wouldn't be happening. You have about as much chance reforming your corrupt organization as feminists do of getting the priesthood extended to women in the Catholic church. You're wasting your ministries and lending your support to a morally bankrupt organization, and even if you don't personally engage in the abuses that have been extensively chronicled here and elsewhere, you are funneling money and people to those who do. That isn't a trivial matter, and you might want to give it some consideration.
ntcc minister,
You are an individual person. Yes,you might have some different qualities,personality then rw,mk and the rest of that clan. But where does your tithe go. You think to the work of the Lord. There have been personal accounts given that the money was not getting to the missionaries. That you may have paid a pledge towards. Ask Casey Hayes!
So in a sense your connected to rw,mk. Because your funding there lifestyle's. All of there riches all started from off other's work. Did Mike K. sacrifice to get where he is at? Like they all love to boast. Sacrifice now,to be blessed later. What a crock of bull! Nowhere does it say you have to sacrifice to be blessed. God will give us the desire's of our heart. Not with any conditions attached to them.
You stay with ntcc thinking your doing Gods will. Yeah right,your doing rw will. Which is why many of us get irritated with some of your posts. You stick up for them,then you turn around and bash them. Guess your on that fence. Stay or Go? I would say GO!!!
CM
Concerned NTCC Minister said to me:
Nothing you said "bothers" me, so to speak. It is interesting, how things get mixed up in our minds when we have been away for a while. You said at one point, in another thread, that you heard Pastor Davis say 100 times that he had never sinned since he had been saved. The interesting thing about that is I never heard him say that once, in fact, I heard him say that if someone says they haven't sinned since they got saved, they are lying. Let's try to keep our facts straight and not exaggerate, ok?
Hun, My facts are straight. I wasn't the only one that heard him say that and I wasn't the only one to comment on it after hearing it.
No we were not gossiping we were simply asking each other if we heard him right to make sure we actually heard what he said.
I am not hallucinating. I know what I heard and I had it confirmed so I know I wasn't "hearing things"
yes he has said if someone says they haven't sinned since they got saved, they are lying.
But when he was on his high horse many times promoting himself as THE MAN that hears from GOD (as in I guess no other NTCCer can hear from GOD because only Davis is appointed by GOD to be the go between. I though Jesus made it possible for us to all be able to directly talk with GOD?) He said it on quite a few different occasions. I wish I could put my memories on video so you can watch them. I really wish I would have sat and recorded every service I ever attended in NTCC. But we were not allowed and I respected that rule and now I am wishing I hadn't.
I know what I heard and I know I wasn't hearing things. Just because you didn't hear him say it doesn't mean he has never said it. It is funny how your mind only chooses to remember certain things.
He has claimed he hasn't sinned since he came to God. And he has done it more then once. And I am not the only one to hear it. Though some of the people who have heard him say it who have since left ntcc do not want to get involved with the blogs, factnet, etc. They just want to move on and try and get their life back. And even when I asked one of them right after I read what you wrote. They said he infact did say it and that was the point that they decided they were going to leave NTCC.
Just because you haven't heard him say it doesn't mean he hasn't.
Loyalty will cause your ears to be a little clogged up and you to hear things that are not being said. Things can be read into what is said. But Davis did infact say it word for word and I remember it as if it just happened yesterday. I remember a lot of stuff that happened in NTCC as if it were yesterday and I have been out since Sept of 2005. I would love to write about my experience in NTCC. The problem I have is where to start and what to include and what to leave out. So for now I will just comment when necessary.
I am not hallucinating. Sorry I don't nor have I ever done any illegal drugs and I have only taken my own prescriptions as prescribed and the only med I was on in NTCC (minus the time I had surgery) was the medication for my thyroid disorder. And none of that stuff made me see or hear things that were not happening. Infact when I was recovering from surgery I wasn't one of the many duped into returning to church while drugged up and in pain. I stayed home until I was fully recovered.
I am a very observant person. I remember things a lot more clearly then others do. I can even tell you exactly what a person was wearing when and where they said something.
And I specifically remember one time he said it, it was a thursday night service at Graham. Davis was ranting and raving about how great a man he is, he was wearing dark grey dress slacks(they were almost black) and he had a white button up shirt on and the white t-shirt he was wearing underneath was easily visible through the thing fabric. He had taken his suit jacket off because he was working himself up in a sweat. He was LEANING on the pulpit with one arm and waving his other arm around like a lunatic. And the whole time he was going on about how great he was and almost everyone in the room was AMENing him.
Well anyways.. I have to go. I've got some prior commitments to attend to.
To everyone I hope you all have a Blessed Easter no matter where your at.
God bless,
Angie
I know what I heard and I know I wasn't hearing things. Just because you didn't hear him say it doesn't mean he has never said it. It is funny how your mind only chooses to remember certain things.
Angie said.
that is so true. I know I have blocked out alot of stuff that was said. I got tired of being bashed,bashed and bashed some more. I started tuning out alot of what was being said in a ntcc service. I did it,without even knowing I was doing that. I used to come out of those service's hopping mad. And could not say anything about it. rw loves to bash women. WOMAN,you are nothing without your man. He is Gods man,and he puts God before you,on and on. Woman,get off the phone you ole'busybody. Woman,that is just a ring! Like we are nothing ,have no say,no OPINIONS. So of course I got tired of listening to his garbage. That made no sense at all!
Folks can tell me something now,that was said in a service. I can not remember it. For me,that is awesome. I would rather not remember there false teaching's from false teachers!!
CM
CM,
Towards the end of my NTCC Experience I used to sleep during service. Yes I admit it here. A sister who is no longer in made the comment how she liked how I could just sit and read my bible all through service.
I would have it open on my lap but more then likely I was sleeping.
I mastered the art of looking like I was awake and reading when I was in High School. But I was taking a nap.
So as I have said some place else which I don't remember exactly where it was. I was physically attending NTCC but I had mentally walked out the door about 6 months before I left. So if someone saw me "reading my Bible" in that time frame I was more then likely sleeping. One because I was tired from all the church stuff I was doing and I never got enough sleep. Two because I was just sick of not hearing preaching and either being jacked up or hearing my Sisters and brothers being jacked up. So in order to keep people from pestering me for not going to church I went. And slept.
Seriously I have seen how people are hounded when they leave NTCC. I made sure and I planned well ahead of my departure. That when I left no one would be able to call me or knock on my door to guilt trip me into coming back. When they finally realized I was gone, my family and I had already moved nearly 2,000 miles away to another state. No one knew I was moving, no one knew I had been packing my house up for 2 months before I left and no one knew I had a moving company come and pack up my moving van the day before we left. And I was very happy to have it that way. My Husband came home from Iraq and the next day we left Washington state with bells on. We were so happy to leave Washington that it took us 2 1/2 days to get to Illinois. We don't live there anymore as you can see by my sign in name. We love it here in Idaho. And if I see or hear of any NTCC churches coming this way you can bet I am not going to make things easy for them. There was one here but the Pastor and his wife closed it down and left NTCC about the same time we moved to Idaho.
I heard rumors of NTCC wanting to start one up in a farming community somewhere around here but so far I haven't seen anything. And I hope I don't.
Angie
Angie that is Hilarious. Sitting and looking like your reading your Bible. Folks probably thought you were so spiritual!
I could sit in a class and take note's. But have no idea what I was writing down. Especially Defranchesco's classes. That man could go on on and on. And not say anything at all!
CM
Angie and CM: This is kind of funny. I had a pastor who preached messages that were so boring that I often drifted off somewhere else while he was talking or preaching or whatever you want to call what he was doing. This dude could have put a mouse to sleep in a room full of cats.
Jeff
This dude could have put a mouse to sleep in a room full of cats.
Jeff that is Hilarious!
I would say most if not all ntcc minister's are boring. Why else are you taught to yell. Try and keep folks awake. Your eyes might be open. But the message is still boring,wether you whisper or yell it!
The message's are pretty much the same! Just a different twist on it. Not much orginality happens in a ntcc service.
CM
CM: No doubt. I actually did feel that LD Jones was a very good preacher and I enjoyed listening to his messages. Unfortunately he also had the propensity to use the pulpit for abuse just like the rest. He decided to nail me one evening by suggesting that career military folks couldn't think on their own because they were too accustomed to taking orders. I was the only one in the service that even other than my wife that even remotely fell into that category of career military. Go figure.
Good to hear from you CM.
Jeff.
Well minus my NTCC sleeping experience. I've always had a saying when it comes to looking for a church after a move (which I hope we won't be doing for many more years to come since we LOVE it here in Idaho).
If when visiting a church and I am not greeted at the door and my kids do not like the childrens classes and I fall asleep during the sermon the church isn't worth going back to. And I've either had all 3 things happen when visiting a church or one or two of them.
I really do miss the honest loving people who are still in NTCC. That were not putting on an act. And I am sitting here thinking of a lot of people who as far as I know are still in. And missing having conversations with them. But thats bout it. I am not going to name their names. I don't want Davis or Kekel getting a fat head.
God bless all,
Hope you had a wonderful Easter!
Angie
Thanks Angie. You take care also.
Jeff
Jeff,
I was bashed over the pulpit. way back when I was in a local church,before BS. I was the Only female besides the PW. I was preached at about lacviousness(I can never spell that word) I was wearing shorts that came to my knees. Sister wore there skirts to there knee's. I was never into wearing tight cloths. I was so mad,sat there and stewed,and then cried because I thought I was doing wrong. I am such a people pleaser. I believe I did what was expected of me,just to please people and in doing so. i thought I was pleasing God.
the only minister I enjoyed listening to was Gesang. And also enjoyed his classes.
CM
CM: I have never heard Gesang preach as far as I can recall, but I'm confident that if you say he was a decent preacher; he was.
I also jumped through hoops to make sure that my style of clothing was appropriate even to go as far as playing basketball in long pants. What a joke. Just to find out that Kekels kid wore shorts the whole time and Kekel said that as far as he was concerned, God had no problem with it.
Like I always say; Double Standards. We were absolutely ALWAYS taught by NTCC pastors not to wear shorts of any kind.
As usual; good to hear from you CM.
Jeff.
CM:
your statement about being a people pleaser hit the nail on the head. many of us were just that. trying to please others, thinking we were in turn pleasing God.
how twisted is that?
signed, polaris
Jeff,
Know all about being humilated. Trying to follow the ntcc so called holiness standards. I was in the military. I came to soul winning wearing my uniform. I had to leave. But the men,could come late in there uniform. He stated ,about how it would look for a female out soul-winning with the PW with her in her dowdy cloths. DOUBLE STANDARDS!
I also had to go in after hours to help clean and get ready for a huge inpsection. Was told to come in PT cloths. I asked the Pastor what I should wear. What was my after hours cloths? So I went wearing what I considered a "cleaning skirt". Was mocked,felt out of place. They gave me easy jobs to do. So I jumped through hoops for nothing. At least a man in ntcc could have worn sweats.
So glad to be out of that circus of a so called church.
I do not consider ntcc a Church. it is an Organization that is out to fleece people of all the money they can squeeze out of them. Wring them dry . Once no longer needed or they have a replacement for you. Your not important.
Hey ,you that are Kissing up to MK. Thinking your getting in good with him. NOT! He will use you,like he has Soo many others. Once he has a replacement for you. Watch how fast he will start to ignore you,stare through you. Your left and forgotten.
CM
CM,
You hit the head on the nail!!
MLJ
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