So Kekel and Davis both have MUCH land and money "ultimately" because of faithful tithe payers in the NTCC. Big deal right? Yes it is a big deal because Davis and Olson have for years directed ministers to sell or simply leave their house, which not many of them even own. Notice I said not many; I didn't say none of them. I'm talking proportionally for those who want troubleshoot my statements. Davis will attempt to have ministers sell or give away their property under the pretense that by not doing so, they are not answering the call of God. Through it all Davis and Kekel just become more financially secure, while you make little or no financial progress.
So once again Davis and Kekel get richer while the "majority" of their ministers remain poor monetarily. Here is the irony. One of the reasons that Davis started his own church was so that he could make all of the decisions concerning the doctrine and rules and no doubt finances. So this means that he is in control of the money and this fact is self evident. So guess what? You pastors will never be in control of anything that you work for as long as you are in the NTCC because you are in "Davis's" organization and everything belongs to him. Ok; so you say everything that you own doesn't belong to Davis right? What happens when Davis or Olson directs you to move? What are you going to do with all of your stuff? Sell it? Pay an extensive amount of money to ship it? Give it away? Pack up what little property you have in your van and drive it across the nation? If you can fit it all in your van, respectfully you don't have much stuff so lets be real. Davis just controlled your stuff in either of those examples that I just gave. I know that some of you civilian pastors might be able to make some progress, but the guys around the military installations that move all over the place will make very little.
So once again Davis and Kekel get richer while the "majority" of their ministers remain poor monetarily. Here is the irony. One of the reasons that Davis started his own church was so that he could make all of the decisions concerning the doctrine and rules and no doubt finances. So this means that he is in control of the money and this fact is self evident. So guess what? You pastors will never be in control of anything that you work for as long as you are in the NTCC because you are in "Davis's" organization and everything belongs to him. Ok; so you say everything that you own doesn't belong to Davis right? What happens when Davis or Olson directs you to move? What are you going to do with all of your stuff? Sell it? Pay an extensive amount of money to ship it? Give it away? Pack up what little property you have in your van and drive it across the nation? If you can fit it all in your van, respectfully you don't have much stuff so lets be real. Davis just controlled your stuff in either of those examples that I just gave. I know that some of you civilian pastors might be able to make some progress, but the guys around the military installations that move all over the place will make very little.
You follow Davis but you don’t follow Davis’s example because you don’t have the same self confidence that Davis had by breaking away so that he could do his own thing and be in control of his own destiny and his own stuff and ultimately almost all the church finances. The same finances that most NTCC pastors have little or no control of. Tell me that you church pastors control your escrow account? I didn't think so. You don't even know what happens to your escrow account when you leave your church because Davis and or his fellow leaders just made you move. That is why he and Kekel live in big fat houses and never have to worry about money and most of you NTCC pastors and ministers are living in poverty. Do you really believe this is the way that God wants things to be? So Davis and Kekel will always remain wealthy and most of you will die poor.
Once again why do you think that Davis broke away from the church he was a part of years ago? Because he wanted control; PERIOD. Davis always wants to be in control of everyone except his daughter which also includes his son in law. Whether Davis was right or wrong, he got tired of answering to another mans organizational mandates so he started his own and he came up with his own mandates. As much as I don’t agree with the way Davis operates, he and I think the same about one thing for certain. If I buy a church building or land, than baby you better believe that I am going to be in control of it. That is what he teaches his son-in-law and that is what this thread is all about. Davis is in control of all of his stuff and all of your stuff also because if he says to sell what you have and move, than you better be moving if you want to happily remain in "HIS" organization. It all belongs to him and he has stated that fact quite clearly in conference years ago and I heard it with my own ears.
Why do think the catholic church has more land than ANY other organization, group or individual in the USA? Because the catholic church has capitalized on the efforts of many. Davis and Kekel have capitalized financially on the work that all of you have done and if what I am saying is not true, than why do they own so much property and most of you have so little? This may not matter to you now but what about when you are 70 YEARS OLD and you still have nothing? At that time, it will become obvious that Kekel could care less, because he’s got his!!!!!
Why should you and your family remain poor if it is all right for Davis and Kekel to be rotten rich? So you mean to tell me that GOD wants Davis and Kekel rich while simultaneously wanting to keep you poor? No way, I'm not falling for that. You NTCC ministers need to wake up. Is it fun keeping your family broke, who have followed you through thick and thin. Your WIFE and KIDS, always struggling while RWD's family doesn't have a financial care in the world? Wake up and open your eyes and see what this manipulative man is putting your family through.
Oh I forgot, maybe God has a different standard for your life than he does for Davis and Kekel. God must want Kekel's son to have it all but God wants you to tell your son, "I'm sorry Son but I can't afford the candy bar that you want". "Just try to make those shoes hold out a little longer". "I have Ma,ma on a food budget you know". "She can only spend so much each week and if we spend extra I must report it to Graham."
Once again why do you think that Davis broke away from the church he was a part of years ago? Because he wanted control; PERIOD. Davis always wants to be in control of everyone except his daughter which also includes his son in law. Whether Davis was right or wrong, he got tired of answering to another mans organizational mandates so he started his own and he came up with his own mandates. As much as I don’t agree with the way Davis operates, he and I think the same about one thing for certain. If I buy a church building or land, than baby you better believe that I am going to be in control of it. That is what he teaches his son-in-law and that is what this thread is all about. Davis is in control of all of his stuff and all of your stuff also because if he says to sell what you have and move, than you better be moving if you want to happily remain in "HIS" organization. It all belongs to him and he has stated that fact quite clearly in conference years ago and I heard it with my own ears.
Why do think the catholic church has more land than ANY other organization, group or individual in the USA? Because the catholic church has capitalized on the efforts of many. Davis and Kekel have capitalized financially on the work that all of you have done and if what I am saying is not true, than why do they own so much property and most of you have so little? This may not matter to you now but what about when you are 70 YEARS OLD and you still have nothing? At that time, it will become obvious that Kekel could care less, because he’s got his!!!!!
Why should you and your family remain poor if it is all right for Davis and Kekel to be rotten rich? So you mean to tell me that GOD wants Davis and Kekel rich while simultaneously wanting to keep you poor? No way, I'm not falling for that. You NTCC ministers need to wake up. Is it fun keeping your family broke, who have followed you through thick and thin. Your WIFE and KIDS, always struggling while RWD's family doesn't have a financial care in the world? Wake up and open your eyes and see what this manipulative man is putting your family through.
Oh I forgot, maybe God has a different standard for your life than he does for Davis and Kekel. God must want Kekel's son to have it all but God wants you to tell your son, "I'm sorry Son but I can't afford the candy bar that you want". "Just try to make those shoes hold out a little longer". "I have Ma,ma on a food budget you know". "She can only spend so much each week and if we spend extra I must report it to Graham."
I decided not to think or live like that. I decided that my family was just as important as RWD's and Kekel's. I decided not to quit a good paying job that certain NTCC leaders thought I should quit.
64 comments:
nice job Jeff,
here we come to the very heart of the matter.
all of the false doctrines, manipulative practices, control tactics have all been implemented for this end...the greed of the davis family
we know that the Bible teaches that there is nothing more reprehernsible in God's eyes than greedy men destroying other men and claiming at the same time to be shepherds
2 Peter 2:3 "In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction in on the way"
I pray that those that have sincere hearts would understand and flee from this horrible organization!!
but on the other hand, there are those who continue to suffer financially with a false hope of "maybe someday i will be like rev kekel or rev Kinson" these are also taken hold of by covetousness and are not concerned with mens souls but with the hope of financial prosperity
people WAKE UP!!!! listen to what Jeff and Casey etc.. are saying and run, if you do have that sin of covetousness, turn and repent, God will change your life and set you on the right path
sincerely,
t
Jeff,
I am absolute certain that Davis intentionally keeps people in poverty to control them. When i was "in" I didn't see it that way, because I was brainwashed into believing that "it was all my fault". The frustration of being a loyal member of ntcc is that no matter how good a Christian life you live; no matter how faithful you are; no matter how holy you live; no matter how pleasing to God-- you NEVER have any money! And you always blame yourself!! You think there must be something wrong with you-- instead of seeing the truth, which is, that Davis makes it so you really can't have money. Why? Because just when you finally "catch up" you have to go a conference; or move out in the work somewhere; or some other thing will come up.
People, your poverty is NOT your fault-- it is a result of the culture of ntcc (set up by Davis), where you have nothing and his family has everything. Davis set it up this way to CONTROL you and funnel most of the money to HIS family.
people beware,
One of the major ways the serpent deceives and keeps us in bondage is by ACCUSING us- he is the "accuser of the brethren"
in like manner Davis and his brood also turn your honest questions by turning your eyes onto yourself with accusations of "jealousy" "envy" and such
what they are doing is taking your eyes off of their sin (oops forgot, they don't sin) and turning your eyes onto yourself by planting a seed of doubt about your motives
guys, we are all fallen and sinful and when we turn our eyes inward we WILL be able to find sin!
the issue isnt "do you have sin in your heart" the issue is- are you being manipulated to see only your sin and not the sin of the davis family
dont play the FOOL- men, you are responsible to be the:
Pastor-
men, you are called to be a shepherd to your own family first, to feed them and nourish them and to build them up- is ntcc hindering you from doing that?
Protector- to protect your family by putting there needs ahead of your and making sure they will not be hurt by others, especially those controlling you
Provider-
men, you are called to provide for your own family, not the davis family, not the kekel family, take a serious look at your life and ask yourself if your providing what your family needs
do not allow yourself to continue to be a "sheep led to the slaughter" by a devious and covetous man who is only using you for his own gain
the first thing to do is begin to think logically, begin to use the Bible to weigh davis teachings, think critically, your family depends on you!!!
sincerely,
t
It would be nice if someone would send a letter to the Seattle Tacoma newspaper about all of these issues with NTCC church.
Any takers??
Bro Johnson
Question:
Does Kekel and Davis pay taxes on their riches? (W2 reports to IRS)
MLJ
Wouldn't it be something if the IRS decided to AUDIT NTCC?? Talk about having your books layed open bare!!!
Maybe somebody could slip the IRS an anon. note :)
MLJ
Question:
Where do you all see NTCC as an org. in 2 - 5 years (be honest).
I foresee another split.
MLJ
You know chief, I was commenting to my husband just yesteday about this certain couple and she would always come to me with her stories about the org. At the time I didn't really have any idea of the goings on of ntcc but she and her husband were helpers and I think about them because while in ntcc they were always on the brink of disaster financially. One night after church she comes to me and tell me that she is going to refuse sex with her husband unless he gives her money to buy food! Imagine that!
Next time I see her I asked her about it and she smiled and she said that her husband took the money that he had put away for the budget offering and gave it to her.
Like my friend use to say: you's got to do what you's got to do, honey. I've got a switch and can turn it on or off.!
In my Ministry class we are going over the whole "It belongs to me" "It belongs to them"... I don't have time right now but I have a list of scriptures that clearly state that EVERY SINGLE LAST THING on this earth right down to the air we breath belongs to God.
Nothing we own belongs to use. Not one thing. It belongs to God. Even the buildings and houses of the greedy in NTCC don't really Own their property. It belongs to God. And if God so chooses he can strip it away from them in a heart beat.
Angie
I think that finances is probably one of the biggest problems with the average ntcc minister. It is almost a given that an ntcc minister will be living in the poverty level. One thing that I despised was the "poverty mentality" of many people. They shopped regularly at the used clothing and discount food stores. When we were young in ntcc I also shopped at those stores, but after a while I hated it. Why do you always have to buy used clothes, used furniture, and junk cars. But we did it, because WE HAD NO CHOICE! We didn't have any money. It was a vicious lifestyle.
I know that the majority of brothers and sisters who read this, and are pastoring some ntcc church somewhere, are either in poverty or have lived in poverty for a majority of their ntcc life. It has ruined alot of marriages, and caused alot of kids to not want to grow up in a church-- all because of the ntcc poverty lifestyle. It's not the parents fault-- it's the fault of the church leaders who horde all the money for themselves and turn a blind eye to their brothers and sisters who are suffering.
If you are living in poverty in ntcc, why not do yourself and your family a BIG favor and leave! Find yourself a good church somewhere else, and finally provide for your family like the Bible teaches.
Angie: Your right it does belong to God. The NTCC leadership uses that exact scripture and the rest of what you said to justify the lifestyles of Kekel and RWD. They say that God gave all the riches to them and that proves that they are right with God. That is a totally erroneous notion and here is why. How many rich people are there who live in outwardly obvious willful sin? Millions for sure. There is a rich sinner on every street without doubt.
So my point is; just because you have money doesn't prove that you are right with God. That is a fact or there wouldn't be any rich sinners at all and there are millions of them. God sends rain on the just and the unjust and that is Bible. So Davis and Kekel could absolutely be wrong with God and still have plenty of riches. Davis and Kekel could also be wrong with God while continuing to funnel your money in support their lifestyle, and it is done all the time in the church world.
Do you think that the $20,000 a year that is needed to put Grant through private academy grows on trees? Kekel's got to get it from somewhere. Do you think that the property taxes required to keep Kekels 39 acres grows on trees? Like I always say Kekel is continuing to get richer while the majority of NTCC ministers remain broke and the NTCC leadership has it set up that way.
NTCC minister: Why don't you call RWD and ask him if you can pastor the Graham church so you can get loaded and never have to move and see what he has to say? Checkmate. I rest my case. It won't happen because you are not his son in law or you are not related to Johnson or Ashmore or Olson. Checkmate again.
Jeff
Anon,
That is hilarious story about the helper and his wife!
Well with that I can post....some scriptures. I have Mom duties that call me so Not going to post the entire Bible!
Luke 16:13 (NIV)"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
Luke 6:20 (NIV)Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luke 6:24 (NIV)"But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
Matthew 6:21 (NIV)For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Luke 12:16-21 (NIV)And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.' "Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." ' "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?' "This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."
1 Timothy 6:9 (NIV)People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.
Hebrews 13:5 (NIV)Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."Ephesians 5:5(NIV)For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person-such a man is an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 5:11(NIV)But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
1 Timothy 6:17-19(NIV)Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
Matthew 6:25-33(NIV)"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
hilarious???
i can see the humor somewhat in the story, but on the other hand look at what it is doing to families....causing marital strife and manipulation, basically the organization is coming between the couple.
true shepherd's desire to help marriages and see them grow in love and grace. while ntcc "shepherds" only care about the money and the numbers and would just as soon see a marriage dissolved if it wasn't beneficial to ntcc
look up all the places "shepherd" appears in your bible and use logical deduction to see if ntcc leadership qualify
some examples:
Isa 40:11
He will feed his flock like a shepherd. He will carry the lambs in his arms, holding them close to his heart. He will gently lead the mother sheep with their young.
John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
i think john 10:11 pretty much gives you a good idea of the ntcc mentality...they think it reads "you lay down your life for the (false) shepherd"
sincerely,
t
Bro Jeff,
You mentioned earlier
"Do you think that the $20,000 a year that is needed to put Grant through private academy grows on trees? Kekel's got to get it from somewhere".
The I started thinking. Why in the name of God spend all that money just to go to school?
I send my kids to a good military run (because it is on base) school and I am just peaching king with that. Plus I have enrolled them in summer school (also free) to broaden their knowledge base.
Looks like Grant, coming from a privileged family, does not know what poverty is like, has not experienced it. So that is $80,000 for four years. FOUR YEARS of high school.
Let's not forget College, as for sure Grant will not attend NTCC. So I forsee up to 300 K for College?!? Am I right? I think I just Sunk his Battleship! Fore!!
Bro Johnson
Bro Johnson: If Grant went to that same Charles Wright Academy the majority or all of his school age years, Mike Kekel would have shelled out close to $200,000 just to send his son to K - 12th grade!!!!! Wow. All you have to do is go to the schools website, look up the tuition and do the math. Simple addition baby!!
That is a lot of money and once again it had to come from somewhere and Kekel definitely didn't accumulate nearly that kind of money when he was in the military years ago. That was our good old tithe money hard at work and there is no other logical explanation.
Jeff.
The laborer is worthy of his hire?
100K to 200K just for grade school? Please they got to be kidding me. That's whats called taking folks to the cleaners.
At one point we were going to enroll our kids at CWA until we decided to home school. And that was back when we could afford it. Now they are both in public school. And the school they go to (most of Idaho is this way) recognizes what our beliefs are and tries very hard to not pressure our kids into things that go against them.
Wish I could say that about all public schools.
Even if my husband was a Pastor I would argue highly against sending our kids to private school simply because it would not look good to the congregation. I just don't think Pastors should live in excess. They should if paid by their church (since most real pastors do work 24/7/365 for their church) should get paid enough to live comforatably but not like they are kings. They should have enough money to have a home, a vehicle or two, food, clothes, utilities, and extra for emergencies and thats about it.
The whole mansion thing....makes me sick. Even if a church is huge (and I am not talking about NTCC) they should take that money and send it to people who need it or organizations who help the homeless, poor, widows, ill, etc.
Angie,
Ntcc has the homeless, poor, widows, ill, ect. If they won't help their own, they won't help anyone else.
One of the saddest things I witnessed, is that Sis. Espinoza and her family sacrificed their whole life for ntcc, and when Rev. Espinoza died, sister had to go get a job! At almost 60 years old! You'd think, being a widow and all, they would have supported her like the Bible teaches. Like I've stated before, loyalty in ntcc means NOTHING!
Yes it is sad that she had to get a job.
Though if it were me I would want to get a job. I like working.
I've witnessed what happens to a woman when her husband passes away and after they are over the hardest part of mourning the loss of their life partner a lot of women find themselves with a lot of free time on their hands and they get bored.
But you are right the church is supposed to take care of the widowed. Pretty sad that NTCC doesn't.
Well if Kekel dies off before his wife does I'm sure she will be well taken care of by NTCC (If it is still around by then). Sick isn't it?
Bro. Casey, I didn't know that espinoza's wife had to get a job, that is just over the top. Here she was a woman that hadn't worked for maybe 25 years and then there she is, I'm glad that she wasn't put into marrying right away, I don't know how the espinoza clan wouldn't have taken it. But just makes me think about how one lady that her very prominient husband left the org said one time in a fellowship meeting:" I wouldn't have gotten married right away when my husband left. Now I am getting skills so that if something like that happens again I am going to make it on my own and not have to rely on support from a man." Good for her.
Casey,
Tell me I just did not read that you stated:
"One of the saddest things I witnessed, is that Sis. Espinoza and her family sacrificed their whole life for ntcc, and when Rev. Espinoza died, sister had to go get a job! At almost 60 years old!"
So do you mean to tell me that NTCC does NOT provide a pension to widows of former NTCC preachers?
Somebody in NTCC needs to bring this up to the leadership to address. This is a disgrace. This is an OUTRAGE!
Everyone on the Board should be ASHAMED of themselves neglecting this poor lady. Her husband gave his LIFE for the cause of Christ even thought NTCC is a defunct organization it is THEIR responsbility since their preachers cannot preach anywhere else to TAKE CARE of the Preacher and his family regardless of the hardship.
I know for a fact that NTCC paid for Eric Hanna's Brain Operation, that had to be at least 50 K to 100K operation.
NTCC finally discusts me.
Bro Johnson
Disgusts Me.
Bro Johnson
Hopefully she is doing good now but I just don't think that her sons and daughters would leave her to fend for herself. I hope not because I've known that latinos are very into family.
As a member of NTCC my concern is widows “indeed.” If my husband dies before me, I will be a widow “indeed (KJV)” in less than 10 years. But, only if I were to remain single until I turn sixty years young. I have no desire to remarry in the event of my husband’s demise (I really don’t…I verified). I have no children, and hopefully my public Christian service, and testimony is one of good works, and selfless sacrificial service, which would qualify me for NTCC support in accordance with 1 Timothy 5:3-10. The only thing I haven’t done is, “…brought up children. (KJV)” But, we know the reason I don’t have any children…NTCC’s no children “policy.” A word about “policy”…I have just found out from Rev. Kekel’s blog that all the NTCC rules I diligently followed all these years were suggested courses of action, and were in fact up to the total discretion of the individual regarding whether they were followed or not, with no repercussions if not followed. I wish I had known this years ago, as I am well past safe child bearing years, and wanted children. That is another topic for maybe another time, but a topic that has already been discussed.
In the light of the only known living widow of a Minister in our Church not being supported by our Church Organization, or her family, I can only assume I would not be taken care of by NTCC before, but most importantly after I turn sixty, in the event of my husbands death (as I would need help). Which brings us to…
A case study of Sis. Virginia Espinoza:
Sis. Virginia Espinoza is over sixty and works on a job. Though not a widow ‘indeed’ (she has living children), I assume from this (she works) our Church does not support her (not officially, and not regularly…I verified). I also assume from this (she works) that her children (all of whom are in the ministry in our Church, or are attending our Church) don’t have the money (they don’t, I verified) to support her. I also assume from this (she works) that Rev. Dan Espinoza did not make long term allowances for the care of Sis. Virginia Espinoza (he didn’t, I verified) in the event of his possible demise. Yet, Rev. Dan Espinoza was preached a “Christian” funeral and not an “infidel (KJV)” funeral, so I probably should assume that he did make allowances for the long term care of Sis. Virginia Espinoza (he didn’t, I verified) in the event of his possible demise, despite the above referenced evidence to the contrary. Sis. Virginia Espinoza works because she has to (I verified), and her children don’t support her (I verified) because they can’t (I verified), because of their own bills and/or ministerial poverty.
If this perception regarding our Church, Sis. Virginia Espinoza, and/or her family is inaccurate (it’s not, I verified) it does not change the fact that no definitive answer regarding people’s legitimate concerns regarding 1 Timothy 5:9-10 have been forthcoming from the leadership of our Church. Again, I know Sis. Virginia Espinoza is not a widow ‘indeed’ so her situation and mine (if my husband were to die) are different, because I would be a widow ‘indeed’ if I would still be single (I would be…I verified) when I turn sixty.
In the course of verifying my long term trust of our Church (remember trust but verify) I gathered evidence of much I knew I would find as follows: The Church has helped Sis. Virginia Espinoza, and Pastor Davis does still give her money “every so often (one family member’s words).” This is all commendable, and I had no doubt I would find evidence of Sis. Virginia Espinoza being helped. But none of these things can be counted as being a long term solution that would alleviate her need to work a secular job, as is proven by the fact she works. None of these things are able to support her to a degree that would allow her to not work if she did not want to. None of these things can be counted as fulfilling God’s direction to our Church as contained in 1 Timothy 5:8-10.
To summarize: The truth is, Sis. Espinoza works because she has to, and her children are not able to obey 1 Timothy 5:8 because of the same events that have caused my husband and I to not have any appreciable amount of money after over 25 years of marriage, and over 23 years involvement in the ministry of NTCC. Which will preclude us from being able to take care of our own Mother’s if they were widowed. I know the above about Sis. Virginia Espinoza because this is what she, and some in her family told me, when I asked them.
Please note: The above was written years ago (after Rev. Espinoza’s funeral), so Sis. Virginia Espinoza is that much older (as am I), and still working. Her family members, and Sis. Virginia herself, have told me she works hard, and is tired all the time. Proof of all the “(I verified)” qualifications are in the form of saved IM chats and emails with Sis. Virginia Espinoza, and her immediate family.
If anyone would like to challenge the content of this post, please also accompany any comment(s) with hard numbers regarding the monetary support of Sis. Espinoza…from NTCC, and/or her immediate family. Then also explain why she chooses to work so hard, to the point she is tired all the time?
I don’t have any hard numbers regarding any support Sis. Espinoza may be receiving from NTCC, and/or her immediate family, but I do have the written correspondence from her, and her family, that generated the content of this article.
Strictly Anonymous
Even if my husband was a Pastor I would argue highly against sending our kids to private school simply because it would not look good to the congregation. I just don't think Pastors should live in excess. They should if paid by their church (since most real pastors do work 24/7/365 for their church) should get paid enough to live comforatably but not like they are kings. They should have enough money to have a home, a vehicle or two, food, clothes, utilities, and extra for emergencies and thats about
Angie Said.
Something about what you have said here does not sit right with me. Why should a Pastor have limits put on him. On his income. Living in excess,like 20,000 for one kid to go to school. That is excess. Just had this conversation with my current PW. My pastor now worries what others will think if he fills a plate of food to much,or what kind of vechile he may drive. I said,Don't worry. Who care's what others think. They live a FAR cry from the standards of Big Daddy RW and his sidekick MK and his biker babe TK.
Sorry when you say,it will not look good to the conregation. As if the Pastor has to live his life to please them,NOT! Do they live there life to please him. I know I do not.Me and God work that out.
If they work 24/7 then pay them a hourly wage. Sure it would cover more then just the basic. Which is all you think that man and his family should have. So no trips,don't buy your wife a nice necklace,your kids a gocart. That is all excess?
Nope,don't agree with you on this one Angie.
CM
Strictly Anonymous said...
"In the light of the only known living widow of a Minister in our Church not being supported by our Church Organization, or her family, I can only assume I would not be taken care of by NTCC before, but most importantly after I turn sixty, in the event of my husbands death"
Jeffrey Collins said...
This was one of the very best articles that I have ever seen written on any NTCC related blog!! Why? Because what you wrote is nothing but the truth both biblically and I'm sure factually. I have no reason to doubt your facts. Strictly Anonymous: You are right on the money with your biblical understanding as it pertains to widows and what justified them being taken care of by the Church. You are ABSOLUTELY right about what constitutes a woman qualifying as a "widow in deed." I was just looking it up in Timothy when your message popped up; right down to the very minute.
I am also right about the NTCC being wrong, when they inaccurately use the "keepers at home" scripture to support their false notion stating that a woman is not lawfully allowed to work on a job. Sister you need to make sure that you are taken care of if either your husband won't or if your husband can't because of NTCCs stupid rules.
The NTCCs system is not at all set up for anyone to be taken care of monetarily in their old age, other than a few elect, and select people. The average NTCCer will die virtually broke if they follow the NTCC system. Thank you for your input and I totally respect without reservation your classification as "Strictly Anonymous." By all means continue to post as such if you wish.
With the utmost respect,
Jeffrey Collins
Strictly Anonymous wrote...
But, we know the reason I don’t have any children…NTCC’s no children “policy.” A word about “policy”…I have just found out from Rev. Kekel’s blog that all the NTCC rules I diligently followed all these years were suggested courses of action, and were in fact up to the total discretion of the individual regarding whether they were followed or not, with no repercussions if not followed. I wish I had known this years ago, as I am well past safe child bearing years, and wanted children. That is another topic for maybe another time, but a topic that has already been discussed.
Jeff said...
Outstanding and well put Strictly Anonymous. Of course we all know that there would definitely have been repercussions had you not diligently followed the rules. Of course I'm sure that you know that as well.
Everyone please read Strictly Anonymous's post. It is extremely good, and she brought up very valid and legitimate points that very rarely if ever come up.
Jeff.
I had no problem with your request. Done!
I'm not boasting but that is how a blog should be managed. We are all a part here.
Not a problem at all Strictly Anonymous.
Jeff
"So would you agree that the NTCC has women duped? For that matter would you also say their husbands have been duped as well?"
Jeff,
I think it is more along the lines intentional blindness, that what is preached and taught is followed, over what the leadership does right in plain sight.
The old 'double standard' tac the organization has always been on. The leadership does what they want, or what is currently the most convenient, while enforcing their 'policy' on the rest of us.
Like everything I, and everyone else says, it has all been discussed before (as you said regarding you already covering the content of my last comment). But, the discussion must continue, as repetition is a good teacher. And all of this has helped, is helping, and will help those in the future, begin to think rightly.
Strictly Anonymous
Strictly Anonymous said...
The old 'double standard' tac the organization has always been on. The leadership does what they want, or what is currently the most convenient, while enforcing their 'policy' on the rest of us.
Like everything I, and everyone else says, it has all been discussed before (as you said regarding you already covering the content of my last comment). But, the discussion must continue, as repetition is a good teacher. And all of this has helped, is helping, and will help those in the future, begin to think rightly.
Jeff said...
You are right but you have missed mentioning one very important thing. Many folks have dedicated decades of their life to the Org and they feel that their life has been waisted as a result, and in many many cases their life has been ruined.
Families have been disowned, children have been disowned, lively hoods have been squandered, career opportunities have been completely thrown away, marriages have been broken, careers have been completely given up, and all this has resulted in destroyed and or severely damaged lives.
That is why I have this blog because people need to know the truth about the NTCC.
We followed rules for years that are no longer even required or they simply don't even exist any longer.
Jeff
Jeff wrote:
"You are right but you have missed mentioning one very important thing."
Not to put to fine a point on it, but my last comment specifically addressed your question about if I thought those involved in NTCC are being 'duped.' So, I don't see how I missed anything.
The rest of what you wrote is absolutely true. Many lives have been destroyed. And even more so, but for the work these blogs are accomplishing in peoples lives.
All of what you wrote happened to my family, as a direct result of our involvement with NTCC.
Strictly Anonymous
Strictly Anonymous: Fair enough.
Jeff
Jeff,
From reading your blog, I know one of your interest is “keepers at home.” This is always a good topic. Below is a redacted (some names changed, with some content, and punctuation edited) copy of an email a Sister in NTCC (we will call this husband and wife team Rodger and Tanya) sent to another Sister (we will call this husband and wife team Mike and Verna) in NTCC, a copy of which was sent to me by her husband:
WOMEN WORKING…WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS:
INTRODUCTION: The Bible does not expressly forbid, or even anywhere infer it is wrong for a woman to work outside the home. However, the Bible does teach what a woman’s/man’s/Christian’s priorities/responsibilities are to be. ‘If’ the modern American (especially if childless) woman working outside the home during her substantial free time causes a woman to neglect her husband and home, then it is wrong for that particular woman to work outside the home. However, I feel compelled to add, this particular woman must have inordinately poor work habits, and time management skills.
It takes me about two hours once, or occasionally twice a week, to completely clean my regularly cleaned house; one hour twice a week to fold clothes; about one hour twice per week to iron; about 30 minutes seven times a week to make a breakfast; and about an hour or less seven times a week to make a dinner (how hard is it to use the oven, or a crock pot, or reheat, and serve leftovers). This is about 18.5 hours (with no multitasking) for the week, but Rodger does the laundry, vacuuming, and most of the ironing, and we currently go out to eat sometimes 3 times a week. But Rodger also cooks, and Rodger asks me to make him breakfast from 0 to 2 times per month. This takes it down to about 4 hours a week for domestic activities. I can even do my 18.5 to 4 hours of housework a week on my weekly day(s) off. As you know, a person doesn’t even need to be in the kitchen to be cooking using an oven, or crock pot. The same goes for using the washer and dryer. Multi-tasking can easily be accomplished by the ‘modern’ homemaker on the domestic front. In other words I can put a roast in the oven, put in a load of wash, load the dish washer, and then vacuum the house…all at the same time. This substantially lessens my 18.5 hours of housework per week. Have you ever tried cooking in large batches and then freezing meals? Rodger has had me do this most of the time we have been married. So I only need to cook about one or two days per week (even in Servicemen’s Work).
My intention is to not use household tasks as a justification for staying at home all day, or to make housework an everyday/all day affair, as some/many/most women do. But to get my domestic responsibilities properly done as quickly/efficiently as possible, so I can do many other things that would also be beneficial to my family. Rodger has always taught me to treat all I do as a job, and get it done as quickly as possible, so I can have more free time, and/or be ready for any unexpected/unscheduled ministry activities that ‘may’ arise.
Because very little time needs to be devoted to housework, many of our women (even those ministering in Servicemen’s Homes) have hobbies they spend much time on; such as sewing, surfing the internet/blogging, needle point, exercise, shopping/Kooking, listening to talk radio, reading, playing with their dog, listening to books on tape, naps, etc. So, ‘if’ it will help you accept my lawful working, and education…then consider my job for pay, my accredited College education, and studying for same as my hobby.
Maybe I could take accredited College classes online, so I could spend more time at home; because currently I attend class on campus. Would this be more conducive to your narrow way of thinking? Don’t continue to fail to consider that the modern American (childless) woman now has an amount of discretionary time unprecedented in any other period in history, because of the advent of household appliances (washer, dryer, refrigerator, etc.), household utilities (indoor water/plumbing, electricity, heat, AC, etc.), pre-made/pre-packaged food stuffs (bread, cheese, cereal, milk, eggs, meat, desserts, canned goods, etc.), motorized vehicles, store bought clothes, etc.
Because of the development of all our modern American conveniences a (childless) woman can satisfactorily work outside the home for pay, and satisfactorily maintain her home even ‘if’ her husband is not willing to minimally help around the house (Rodger does help with the ‘chores’), which is also not expressly forbidden by the Bible. Plus, it should again be noted that I do get two days off per week, during which time I can also do household tasks. If a woman with children wanted to, she could also work for pay outside the home (or take college classes) while her children are in school (when all her children have reached school age), and still satisfactorily complete all of her assigned household duties.
1 TIMOTHY 5:8: Many people extrapolate 1 Timothy 5:8 to mean a husband can have no financial help from his wife or children, but what does the Bible really say?
The phrase ‘if any’ in this verse is a translation of the Greek words ‘ei tis (pronoun)’ which mean ‘if any (whoever, whatever)’ so no specific gender is specified, or implied, in the definition, or the context. The husband/wife/child/home unit is too narrow an understanding/application of this verse, as you will see below.
The word ‘provide’ in this verse is translated from ‘pronoeō (verb)’ which means ‘to consider in advance, i.e. look out for beforehand.’ No specific gender is specified, or implied, in the definition, or the context. Also note that this ‘to consider in advance, i.e. look out for beforehand’ is exactly what Rodger has been doing since ****** of 200*; the very thing you rail against him for.
The phrase ‘for his own’ in this verse is a translation of the single Greek word ‘idios (adjective)’ which means ‘pertaining to self’ with no indication of a specific gender specified, or implied, in its definition, or the context. Therefore, this ‘his’ is an unnecessary clarification, since ‘their’ could have been used.
The phrase ‘for those of his own house’ is a translation of the single Greek word ‘oikeios (adjective)’ which means ‘domestic, i.e. (as noun) a relative, adherent’ with no indication of a specific, or implied gender, in its definition, or the context. Therefore, this ‘his’ is an unnecessary clarification, since ‘their’ could have been used. But, ‘his own house’ is all that is mentioned; this ‘his’ (again, an unnecessary clarification, since ‘their’ could have been used) is understood by most people to be only referring to a husband, but more properly it refers to a husband, son, brother, cousin, nephew, grandson, etc. In other words, merely a male taking care for his family/relatives. But, based on the Greek, the broadest, and therefore most correct understanding of this verse is, any gender should take care of any/all of their family ‘if’/when needed, and according to their ability. Regardless of the relationship, since gender is not specified in the actual, or any implied contextual meaning of the Greek words in this verse. Therefore, Biblically/linguistically, it should be said the whole family is in it together, with each member taking care of themselves, and all others, by the best lawful means possible. God’s plan, as completely delineated in the Bible, is for the family to pool their abilities, resources, advantages, opportunities, etc. for the benefit, protection, betterment, etc. of all.
The phrase ‘he hath denied’ in this verse is a translation of the single Greek word ‘arneomai (verb)’ which means ‘to contradict, i.e. disavow, reject, abnegate, abjure.’ Gender is not specified, or implied, in this words definition, or the context, so ‘he’ is an unnecessary clarification since ‘they’ could have been used.
God does not specifically limit any woman (or man) in any lawful means of taking care of herself, or her family, as you do. According to your belief, to be consistently and completely applied, this one verse means a husband should not only refuse all financial help from his wife, but also every other source…children, friends, family, neighbors, Church, the government, etc. What about the wife/mother that receives an inheritance? Should she give it away (maybe to NTCC, so it cannot be used to take care of the needs of her family), because it is not ‘money’ her husband earned? For your understanding of 1 Timothy 5:8 to be consistently and completely applied, you should not have allowed Mike to accept any of the financial help which Rodger, and many others in our organization, have given you over the years…Money sent to you in ******; buying your clothing, paying for your meals, and giving money to you all at the few conferences you have been allowed to attend since you have been in ******. Unbeknownst to you both, many times at Conferences, Rodger has given, and spent, on you both all of our ‘pitiful’ savings; this is always Rodger’s idea and I heartily approve(d) of it. I know a ‘laborer is worthy of his hire’ but Mike does not labor in ministering to Rodger and I (or any of those that give to world missions) and yet you never turned down an offering in any form from us (or the organization). Stated differently, our offerings to you both over the years were not part of your ‘hire’ yet you accepted them anyway (as you should have). Yet, you rebuked Rodger in an email for not having any money. I am not bragging in any of this, but merely using some mutually known facts to delineate 1 Timothy 5:8. Do you remember Pastor Davis sharing many times, the ones you do the most for are the ones that will end up turning on you?
TITUS 2:4-5: Titus 2:4-5 only concerns what an aged woman is to teach the young women. This in no way forbids me from working for pay outside the home when I become aged, or even now, since I have never had any children, and am no longer young. In this passage, the Bible is clear that when children are in the home, that is where the young woman's responsibility lies. The older women are to teach the younger women, and to live lives that glorify God (Titus 2:3). Does the leaderships (along with the leadership wives) artifices of trying to break up (what they consider) unprofitable marriages glorify God? Is the woman that spends her free time on hobbies, and other frivolous activities, a more Godly example than the one who spends her free time directly involved in things that will tangibly benefit her family? Keeping her Biblically ordained responsibilities in mind, the older woman's time can be spent at the Lord's leading, and her discretion.
The phrase ‘keepers at home’ in Titus 2:5 is a translation of the single Greek word ‘oikourgos (adjective)’ and means ‘a stayer at home, i.e. domestically inclined (a good housekeeper).’ This I already am in intent, desire, ability, and action.
According to Webster’s a ‘keeper’ is also 1. a person who guards or watches, as at a prison or gate. 4. a person who is responsible for the maintenance of something (often used in combination): a housekeeper; a groundskeeper. 5. a person charged with responsibility for the preservation and conservation of something valuable. NOTE: This definition is not limiting in any way.
According to the thesaurus, a ‘keeper’ is also a manager, proprietor, owner, director, supervisor, administrator, etc.
According to the thesaurus, the English word ‘at,’ as used in Titus 2:5, means (among other things) ‘near, in proximity to, in the vicinity of; toward, in the direction of; by, because of, in response to, with’ etc. Stated differently, (Biblically) in being a ‘keeper at home,’ a (childless) woman’s lawful activities should be ‘in the vicinity of,’ and ‘in the direction of,’ and ‘because of,’ and ‘in response to,’ etc. the best benefit of her home and family, regardless of the form this ‘may’ take, even ‘if’ a woman’s care ‘in the vicinity of/in the direction of/because of/in response to’ her family manifests itself in a job for pay outside the confines of her home. None of the above definitions of ‘keeper/stayer at home’ indicate a woman is to be shackled to her homestead, or limited in any lawful methods of care for her family in any way. Take a lesson from Sis. Kekel, etc. For additional support for this see also the ‘virtuous woman’ in Proverbs 31.
Practically and completely applying (not just selectively, as most do) your too narrow understanding of ‘a keeper/stayer at home,’ a woman would be a prisoner in her own home, not being allowed to leave her home for any reason…not to go to the store, not to go to the hospital for treatment, etc. This sounds more like the Taliban than the Word of God. No thanks; but you first Verna, and then you can make more of a case for your extra-Biblical understanding through your own example. Question: Does the condemnation of ‘false accusers’ in Titus 2:3 have any relevance to your recent recurring animus against Rodger to me and ******, and now against me to ******? Do you still want me to leave Rodger, and divorce him, as you shared with me the last time we spoke on the phone in ****** of 200*? Your in good company as Sister Davis has expressed this same sentiment to me over the phone. Why would you encourage me to do this? Is it because you have someone specific in mind for me for a third husband? Or…Is it because this is the long standing, well known custom of our Church?
PROVERBS 31: Contrary to your apparent belief, Proverbs 31 actually teaches us that part of being a virtuous woman ‘is’ working outside the home to generate income by any lawful means, and through any lawful opportunity that ‘may’ present itself, and even taking the initiative and generating lawful opportunities, and not just waiting for them. In addition to working at home, Proverbs 31 tells us the ‘virtuous woman’ gathers food from afar, buys real estate, sells and delivers textiles, etc.; all to generate income. The Bible nowhere forbids a woman from working outside the home.
Therefore, I can cook on a grill; teach at a Bible College; rake leaves; make a bed; cut grass; iron cloths; take out trash; take care of sick people; vacuum a house; work in a garden; fix a sink; clean a toilet; write articles for the Trumpet; sew; wash a car; wash windows; do laundry; wash dishes; make desserts; wash the walls; go online/use the internet; paint the living room; roof a house; etc. for pay outside the home, and for free in my own home, at my own discretion. Proverbs 31 doesn’t even tell us this ‘virtuous woman’ had to get permission from her husband, or a religious council, to engage in any of the listed lawful income generating activities.
However, the Bible does teach what a woman’s priorities are to be, and I am keeping my Biblically mandated priorities ever before me in that I am not neglecting my care for/of Rodger, or care for my house. Since we live with ****** the housework is shared. Rodger will also do what ****** and I do; such as washing dishes, vacuuming, washing clothes, ironing, etc. Additionally, since we live with ****** and ******, I don’t have a house right now so this home is primarily ****** and ******’s overall responsibility.
While the Bible does teach the home is to be ‘one’ priority of the wife/mother, this does not prevent her from following the ‘virtuous woman’s’ example in Proverbs 31, in that she can also go outside the homestead to generate income. You should also consider that any verses dealing with women, and the home, always list children also, and I have never had any children. We all know why.
‘If’ you still persist in maintaining the extra-Biblical position that a woman should not work outside the home under any circumstances, then you should also rebuke the leadership of our Church which have approved of their own wife and other’s wives (some with children, and even some in the Ministry) working outside the home, and not just limit your rebuke of Rodger to ******, and now me to ******.
It should also again be noted by you, the advent of all our modern conveniences (washer, dryer, indoor plumbing, refrigeration, vacuum cleaner, electric iron with steam, other appliances, central heat and air, gas and electric stoves, motorized vehicles, grocery/clothing/furniture stores, canned goods, etc.) contributes to the astronomical increase of discretionary time for the modern American married woman without children over what it was even just 100 years ago.
Proof of this is, the wives in our Church whose husbands are not in the Ministry (and even most who are) use much of their substantial free time to listen to books on tape, Rush Limbaugh, surf the internet, play with their dog, read, go to the library, exercise, shop/window shop, take naps, etc.
Whereas, I currently use much of my free time to work for pay, study, and take classes at an accredited College; all with Rodger’s approval. Who is being the better steward of their free time? Who is being more like the ‘virtuous woman’ of Proverbs 31?
Modern American women do not have to spin, weave, make clothing and other textiles, farm, cook/make everything from scratch, do home maintenance, etc. These things are still needed, the only difference being we can now more easily buy them. Yet, according to you, it is wrong for me to provide these things for my family in a manner you don’t approve of by working?
That you don’t approve is demonstrated by your continued railings against Rodger to me, and now me to ******, on the phone. Would the/a ‘virtuous women’ do this (do what you have been doing against Rodger, and now me)? What would the ‘virtuous woman’ of Proverbs 31 do in today’s American society with no children in the home, and ‘if’ not involved in Ministry, and especially if living with her ******? Listen to books on tape, read and play with her dog, etc., or work for pay outside her home, go to College, study and/or other things to directly benefit her family, and benefit and improve herself?
1 TIMOTHY 5:14: Although you ‘may’ site 1 Timothy 5:14, I am not a young woman, and I will never be again. Regarding 1 Timothy 5:14, for those that persist in choosing the narrowest misapplication of this verse, we should all also have had children which most of us do not, directly because of Pastor Davis. What about 1 Timothy 5:13? With regard to 1 Timothy 5:13, have you of late become a tattler and busybody, speaking things which you ought not?
1 Timothy 5 also deals with being idle as a negative thing, which I also address inferentially in this email. Could this be the problem? You have too much time on your hands, because you do not work outside the home? Could this be the reason gossip, rumour, slander, innuendo, etc. is so prevalent among the women (and men) in our Church Organization, and has been since our Organizations inception? Because our women have so much discretionary time, even among those in the ministry, because some husbands ignorantly forbid their wives working, or even just taking accredited College classes (online or otherwise), and many other profitable lawful things during their substantial free time? As you know Pastor Davis has taught and preached on/against this (gossip/laziness etc.) many times during all the decades of our Church Organizations existence.
‘If’ a person would take only 3 online classes per year (a total cost of about $1,000) during some of their free time (instead of listening to books on tape, Rush Limbaugh, reading casually, playing with their dog, etc.) they could have a Bachelor’s degree in about 13 years in the field of their choosing (my field is ******). A person could also study on their own, and just take a CLEP test for $75, and get 3 credits for each CLEP test they pass. How cool would that be!
Are you fluent in Spanish? Take the Spanish CLEP test levels 1 and 2, and receive 6 College credits when you pass them both for a mere $150. Do you like to read? Study as much as you need to, and then take the American literature CLEP, and earn 3 College Credits for a pittance of $75. Do you like politics? Have you regularly listened to Rush Limbaugh, and other conservative talk show hosts? Take the American Government CLEP and receive 3 College credits when you pass it; again, for the paltry sum of $75.
Combine this with one or two online classes, and you will have about 18 credits in one year for about $900; and you only need 60 credits for an Associates degree. You ‘may’ also be eligible for accredited ‘life experience’ credits that go towards an accredited degree. For this you have to talk to a School counsellor. This can also be done online for a fee. Our Church does aggressively promote self improvement just not in this way. Is the goal only certain kinds of self-improvement (bake a better pie, better sex on demand for your husband, better piano playing, better toilet cleaning, etc.) or any type of lawful self improvement?
Rodger is in the ‘any kind of lawful self improvement’ camp and has been trying to get me to take College courses during my free time for many years, and ‘if’ I had listened to him I would almost have a Bachelor’s Degree by now. Rodger has been a very vocal cheerleader for me both privately and in public throughout our almost ****** years of marriage in always encouraging me higher in any and all areas I am interested in, and now all his encouragement is coming to fruition in the academic area also. Rodger has always been a vigorous proponent of study and education (as is proven by his continued postgraduate education) and is ecstatic over the way things are working out for me/us, and my new found desire in the education arena.
CONCLUSION: Based on all the above, a stronger case can be made that the modern American (childless) woman who doesn’t work outside the home for pay, and/or take College classes, and/or study, and/or other profitable activities during her free time, but stays home listening to books on tape, and Rush Limbaugh, reading, playing with her dog, etc. is the one living the extra-Biblical lifestyle. Is not as ‘virtuous’ a woman as the one who works for pay outside the home, and/or takes College classes, or other profitable activities during her substantial free time. Again, which of these two not so hypothetical women is contributing more to the care and welfare of her family? Which is the more ‘virtuous woman?’ Don’t misunderstand, I am not saying it is wrong for a woman to do nothing more with her free time than hobbies etc. I am just presenting the case that it is not wrong for me to work for pay, study, and attend classes with my free time. Since free time is discretionary, and is used (or misused/wasted) at the discretion of the individual, it logically matters not what is done with it so why do you care; especially since our Church Organization does not, as is shown by what the leadership allows their (and others) wife to do?
In His Service,
Tanya
Posted by Strictly Anonymous (some names changed to protect the innocent, and some of the guilty)
So... the family with no children requires more income than the family with children? The woman with no children should be working on a job to help support the family, but as soon as there are children in the picture, the woman doesn't have to work any more because the financial demand isn't there any more. Some sarcasm there ok, but you see where there may be some flaws in your logic.
I think it is a personal decision if your spouse works outside the home. I don't think anyone can prove otherwise. The problem with NTCC is they always stick their nose in your business. What a bunch of control freaks. I can remember a time when NTCC was pushing for males to get a vasectomy. Funny how MK wasn't first up before the knife. I wonder how many men went to their local doctor and received their blessing only to regret it years later. I think I have heard about enough. All the double standards and testimonies concerning NTCC is making me want to puke.
CM,
I don't have a Problem with a Pastor living well. I have a problem with a Pastor flaunting how well he is living. Mansions(why have a mansion unless everyone who is on the ministry staff of the church is living with you), 60k+ cars(a Kia will do the same job and is a heck of a lot cheaper), Yachts (the point of a yacht is what?), owning more then one property with homes in more then one state and sometimes other countries (again the point of it is what? It is cheaper to just go on vacation then deal with house payments in homes you only live in part of the time), Wearing name brand clothing 2k suits (the point is what?). While the rest of their church members are ignored and need help? And I am not just talking bout NTCC here. I've seen it in many huge churches. All that money could be put to a good cause. Living extravegently is just plain stupid. When you die where is it gonna go? Either to the government or your family (which will get stuck with inheritance taxes out the ying yang).
I've got no problem with a Pastor getting paid well for his job. Being a Pastor is a job. But flaunting it? Living extravegently? Blowing money like its going out of style?
I know a few Pastors who are paid well. They don't flaunt it. I'm sure they have a huge savings account. They are not constantly traveling, They and their wives dress nicely have nice things but again they don't flaunt it they don't pay outrageous prices for cars, jewelery, clothing, their home, etc. They don't live in a house that is 5 times to big for them. They don't have maids, They don't send their kids to private school (usually the reason is because they want their kids to be able to understand how the world is so they can better reach them for salvation and they don't want their kids living a sheltered life which I think is cool). They do take vacations but they don't show off about it. Our Pastor in particular even with what I am sure is a good savings he doesn't go overboard on vacations they take a vacation every 3 or 4 years. He doesn't go get the most expensive hotel, at the most expensive vacation spot, etc. He and his wife and kids have a good time and they don't go around bragging about it. They don't own a RV that costs 100k+. As far as I know they don't even own one. I've been to their home many times. It is just the right size for them. They don't have expensive furniture (though their house is decorated nicely) they don't have expensive decorations. They don't have expensive dishes, curtains, etc. They have not yet even gone out and bought the latest in electronic devices. They drive USED cars. They live very simple. They are very caring people. They help where they can. They don't flash their wallets. They don't even handle the church finances. They don't touch any of the money the church has unless it is in the form of their payment for their job. Both of them are Pastors. The Husband and the Wife. Their children(all except one who is ready to graduate here soon) who are out of school are paying their own way to college. Or have already paid their own way to college. One of their children is married and I know they make good money but they don't even show it off (learned from their parents I am sure).
People who have money and have to show it off in the way they dress, the house they live in, the car they drive, the vacations they take, the many properties they own, etc. Make me sick. What are they trying to prove? That they are better then everyone else?
Now don't get me wrong and put things into what I am saying that I am not saying. There are plenty of people who are well off and have very nice everything but they don't go about showing it off. They are very humble people and they don't have this "I worked for this so you ow me respect" attitude that a lot of people who have money do.
The people who have nice things and don't rub it in others faces (they don't show it off, flaunt it, etc) are the people I have more respect for. Then the people who have nice things and rub it in people's faces. People who have money and live a humble life style I also have respect for. I mean come on it isn't going with you when you die. If you have nice things why brag about it?
My Husband at times has made a good living and we still never went out and bought the most expensive car we could find. we didn't go buy a house that was way beyond the size that we needed, etc. Infact any home we have ever had (rented or owned) the only requirement we had is that we have one extra bedroom for guests. Our bedroom has always been and always will be our bedroom and our office. each of our kids have always had their own rooms (we only have two kids and no we are not having more). Other things.. but even in NTCC we were always helping people. And I am not bragging on myself I am using myself as an example. There were plenty of times sisters needed things for their newborns and they couldn't afford it so I got it for them and I could care less if they paid me back. That is not how I am. When I give someone something I don't expect it back. If God blesses me he blesses me. If he doesn't he doesn't. I have even given of my own belongings to people before, because they needed it more then I did. No big loss to me. When my husband and I decide to help a family out with money and they say they will pay it back we tell them to keep it and not to worry about it. We don't want giving things to people (loans) to use to come between our friendships. If they want to pay us back more power to them but we don't expect it. And we don't ask for it. And I sure as heck did not like the snide remarks I got from a Sister in NTCC once about me showing off my Money because that was not what I was doing at all and was not my intent. I saw a need and asked my husband if I could help and he said yes. He never attended NTCC and didn't like how I was treated in NTCC and was very vocal about it but he never once said no when I saw a need and wanted to help.
Anyways back to the whole Pastor thing. You see my point? or Understand it more clearly?
I could care less if a Pastor is paid well. What I care about is if he is flaunting it. Like Davis does and many other Pastors who are in other denominations. How does it make you feel when you are barely able to make ends meet and your Pastor rolls up in his escalade with his expensive suit on and his high and mighty attitude? Not very good. I'm sure some people would be angry.
I don't agree with the whole Flaunt it if you Got it attitude a lot of people have. And I don't believe that saying just goes for a woman and her figure. Cuz I have seen some pretty ugly rich people flaunting their wealth because they got it.
Davis only lifts his finger to help someone if it is going to suit him. And he brags about all the people he has helped allll the darn time. I know he does because I've witnessed it. The dude is self righteous. And so are a lot of the other upitty ups in NTCC. SO you have money. Who gives a crap? Why do you feel the need to flaunt it? Does it make you feel better about yourself showing off what you got to others? Living in a house that is 5 times bigger then you need? Driving expensive cars when heck if you want a car with leather seats. Kia sells cars with leather seats for less then half of what you would pay for the car he drives now. Or should I say cars?
If you have money. Good for you. Just don't go flaunting it. It really is sad and shows a person's character when they go around showing off what they have. For who's glory? Not for God's! God doesn't go around flaunting his riches. Why should we? What are you trying to prove? That your better then everyone else because you can afford the 2 thousand dollar suits and the 100k+ RV's, and 60k+ cars and homes that could probably fit the entire teaching staff at NTCC? And maids (other ntcc women) that come clean your house because your too lazy to do it yourself? Granted Sister Davis is not able. She I believe should have help. But what about Tanya? Give me a break!
It really is not that hard to keep a house clean. If you have kids it might be a tad bit harder to keep it clean all day but it still is not that hard. And once your kids get old enough they usually go through a stage where they like to help clean which is the perfect time to teach them to clean up after themselves.
One other thing I failed to mention. Our Pastors wife who is also a Pastor *gasp*(I'm not against a woman being a pastor) also teaches in the sunday school classes, she greets at the door, she helps in a lot of area's plus she works outside the home. She doesn't just follow her husband around like a lost puppy. She isn't home all day. Her house everytime I've ever been over there no matter what time I go over there is always clean. She has 3 kids. One is just about to leave the nest. So honestly with her schedule. And hers is a lot busier then mine on most days. She is still able to take care of her family and work and handle her church duties just fine.
So women who work all day and then come home and sit on their butt and whine that their too tired to clean. Honey if I can work a job (which I did until I started going to school full time) from 9:30pm - 7:30am 4 days a week(that is 40 hours a week) and come home and clean my house and still have time for my family (slept while my kids were at school since I worked the graveyard shift) then I sure as heck know that you can. And at my job I was on my feet for the full 10 hour shift that I worked. I didn't have a desk job. And I kid you not the first week I was there my feet hurt bad but after that I got used to it. And I had to wear steal toed shoes and a hard hat. So don't give me that I've worked all day and am too tired. If I can do it you can do it. My husband travels for his current job. So he is only home 2 weeks out of every month. But even when he is home he gets off his duff and helps with cooking, cleaning, etc. I try not to nag him about helping. But I am guilty of it on occasion. If the kids are on my nerves he even will offer to take them out of the house to the park or YMCA to get them out of my hair while I do my homework or clean.
See in my family we were raised that a Husband and a Wife are a Team and they should BOTH do their part to keep the house clean and the kids fed. And once we kids were old enough they taught us how to feed ourselves and clean up after ourselves and help clean also. It is not the sole responsibility of the wife to do all the cooking and the cleaning. If your kids are able(not physically disabled) get them off their butts and make them help. If your the husband get off your butt and help. Your wife/mom would be EVER so greatful to you for the help. I love it when my husband and my kids help with the housework, etc. Gives me more time to spend with them.
Sorry if this turned into a rant. Was not the purpose. But again..on top of trying to make my point clear on the whole Pastors and living extravegently issue I wanted to put my two cents in on the Wife issue.
Also If a woman is happy to be a stay at home wife/mom and has no problems then don't talk down to her for it. Some women enjoy doing that. Others do not. If a woman wants to work outside the home don't talk down to her about it either. It is different if a woman likes to be an at home wife/mom then if a woman is forced to be an at home wife/mom and doesn't like it. If you don't like being an at home wife/mom then go get a job. If you like it then more power to ya! God will bless you either way. God wants his children to be happy and if his children are not happy he is not happy. There is no law that says you have to live under a dictator but heck if you like it more power to ya. I personally would not be married to my husband today had he kept up his controlling ways (he was that way once upon a time), but I prayed and asked God to open his eyes as to a husband is to really treat his wife. A friend of his showed him the scripture
Ephesians 5:25 (KJV)Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it.
And he said to me wow. I totally used to ignore that scripture until ***** showed me it and explained that if Christ was willing to come to this earth to die for our sins then that shows ultimate love.
If your treating your wife like a slave how is that showing her ultimate love? You should be treating your wife like your Queen. Especially if a man is the King of his Castle that means his wife should be the Queen.
And though I find the statement funny "If a mans home is his Castle then let him clean it!" I don't agree with it. I think it should say "If a mans home is his castle then he better darn well be helping clean it since he helps mess it up!"
Angie,
I don't have a problem with Pastor's living well either(most do well due to personal gifts by members or the members desire the Man of God to live that way). However if your Missionary is starving, scrimping, and scraping then is something seriously wrong and sick. If you as a member go to your local church for financial assistance and they direct you to a food bank, something is seriously amiss.
I remember a fellow member asking the Pastor why don't we have a food pantry etc...the Pastor promptly said "that is not our ministry". So I guess it makes sense for the church to send its members to "compromise" church for crumbs? I remember the same Pastor riding us for giving to charity. He said you should give money where you get fed. Guess I owe the local food bank then!
Waiting to Exhale
Anonymous said...
"So... the family with no children requires more income than the family with children? The woman with no children should be working on a job to help support the family, but as soon as there are children in the picture, the woman doesn't have to work any more because the financial demand isn't there any more. Some sarcasm there ok, but you see where there may be some flaws in your logic."
That is not the impression I got when I first read the ‘Tanya’ email. Out of the whole email, as I posted it (4,614 words, the original email was even longer, and is only one email in a 5 part series), there are only five references to a women being childless, and 13 references to children. In my opinion, if it causes a problem, the 18 childless/children references could have been deleted with no change to the logic of what is written, or its applicability to ‘Tanya’ (or ‘Verna’). I thought there was a lot of other good information in there also worth sharing, which one reason why I posted it.
Another reason I posted it is most of the minister couples in NTCC are childless, especially the older ones, and they are the ones who are in the most dire financial straights of all the ministers on NTCC’s roll, and in need of an immediate Biblical change of circumstances. This is why I posted about ‘widows indeed.’ What will be done for all the ‘widows indeed’ that will soon be in NTCC (women usually live longer than men)? Will NTCC say we can’t help you because you have never had children, and therefore don’t completely meet the qualifications of 1 Timothy 5:10? This would not be beyond the pale, based on NTCC’s track record of selectively helping those in need, or declaring, “Though the need exists it is not yet the right time (or God’s will yet).” What preparations are being made for NTCC’s aging minister population (both men and women)? Earlier, MLJ wrote someone should ask NTCC about this. News flash – at least one minister couple (our own ‘Rodger’ and ‘Tanya’) has asked NTCC about this (in writing) with “no answer forthcoming to date” after almost 2 years, and repeated re-askings (also in writing). This is another topic of one of the emails in the 5 part series I reference above, between ‘Tanya’ and ‘Verna’. It is also quite long, but I will not post it unless Jeff asks me to.
My first impression was, the “Tanya’ email was expounding specific Bible principles, with some emphasis on the fact she is childless to further support her lifestyle choices. All in defense of herself, because of her persecution from ‘Verna,’ and addressing the incorrect premises the attacking Sister had been taught by NTCC.
The Titus 2:4-5 section could do without the “In this passage, the Bible is clear that when children are in the home, that is where the young woman's responsibility lies.” sentence; as this is a Biblical given for all women (and men), and could give the wrong impression. Some other things could probably be deleted, or amended throughout the email. But, as I read it, it seemed ‘Tanya’ was tailoring the Bible parts of her email to her specific circumstances, to emphasize the rightness of her lifestyle choices. If this is true, ‘Tanya’ was also tailoring her email to ‘Verna’s’ circumstances, as ‘Verna’ is childless too, and cash poor. ‘Tanya’s’ expounding of Titus 2:5, that followed, was spot on though; as far as I can tell.
It seems to me the ‘Tanya’ email emphasizes what is done with ‘free time’ more than any other single thing, and women with, and without children, all have free time.
But, I will go back and reread this email I received.
Strictly Anonymous
I had a hard time understanding the "Tanya" e-mail-- and I consider myself pretty educated. It read like something out of a government contract. Anyway....
My point in talking about Sis. Espinoza is to point out that if you dedicate your life to ntcc, in the end you will be financially distitute, and you will have to work on a job until the day you die. Incidently, in all the years I studied and taught the Bible I've never seen the word "widow" dissected so much. I always thought a widow was a widow. Now, I know that the Espinozas are a good family and love their mother-- but like Strickly Anon said-- they themselves don't have too much. (I roomed with Jake Espinoza in Bible school and know him pretty well).
I have so much i want to say I don't know where to begin. But, the biggest thing that bothers me right now is the fact that ntcc has preached for 30 years that certain things were a SIN, and you were going to hell if you did them-- but now they are OK, and they are pretending that they never said it was a sin!! What a joke! If they would just fess up and say that all these things that Rodger Davis taught were eternal, damnable sins really are NOT SINS-- and they would apologize for all the harm they caused thousands of people because of it-- I think most of us would go away.
Strictly Anonymous said...
"Another reason I posted it is most of the minister couples in NTCC are childless, especially the older ones, and they are the ones who are in the most dire financial straights of all the ministers on NTCC’s roll"
Jeff said...
This is also a message that I have been trying to get across for a while. Many of these NTCC people are so spiritually minded that they somehow have overlooked the need for financial stability at some point in time in their life. Many of these people seem to think that God wouldn't expect them to make some provisions for themselves? People need to realize that providing for themselves or taking measures to make sure that they are provided for, does not constitute having a lack of faith.
Faith without works is dead and that scripture is applicable in many ways.
Jeff
Waiting to Exhale,
Yup churches are supposed to help their communities. Our church probably will at some point have a food bank but right now they don't. I know (because I've been a part of it) that our church helps the homeless shelters, the battered woman's shelter, and helps people out with food(they actually will go out and buy it and give it to someone who needs it since they don't have a food bank) and money for bills. Or if someone in the church has a need we all go through our stuff (the whole church) and get the things that are on the list that was passed around that this family needs. I don't donate my old clothes or my kids old clothes to a 2nd hand store. I save them in my storage unit and when there is a need at our church I pull out the correct sizes the person is asking for and I give them to them. Easy Peezy.
When in NTCC during a short rough period I needed help paying my rent and told the Pastor that once my husbands pay kicked in that I would pay what I borrowed from the church back and my Pastor told me he would ask Davis (who knows if he really did I don't care now) and he said Davis said no. Well I had to go borrow money from other people(and I am sure some of them could barely afford to help but they helped) and guess what?? When hubbys pay kicked in I went and paid every single last person back that helped us out. I've NEVER been in a church before NTCC or After NTCC that wasn't willing to help a member out when they were in need. I've heard stories of Davis helping people out but for the most part from what I have heard from people and read from people that Davis only helps a select few and basically tells the other's to go fly a kite. So much for caring for their members and bettering the community!
Bro Jeff,
NICE HOUSE!! I think if you continue to add pics it will show the relevance to your blog and the irrelevance of NTCC.
When I first saw the pic I thought it was Davis' house. The stones around the tress add a nice touch, I will put that in my tool box for future building considerations.
Have you heard Susan Boyle sing yet (check out You Tube;Britians got talent). This woman has the devine voice of an Angel. She destroys any attempt of any NTCC minister's wife of trying to sing. She is a gift from God.
Blessings,
Bro Johnson
Very Beautiful Home by the way. And I would love to have a front yard that size!
Bro Johnson and Angie: Thank you. I really enjoy living out here. My family does also. There is nothing like living in the country in my opinion. I like space. My boy and I went bike riding on the road that we live off of, and only two cars passed us by during the course of about two hours.
Many NTCC ministers think that they are sacrificing for the sake of the "NTCC program" under the false pretense that it is the program of God, but they are actually sacrificing so that Kekel can live a better life and have an extra $20,000 a year to put Grant through grade school.
In stead of taking care of Kekel and his family, they ought to take care of their own family so they can have something nice like Kekel and my family for that matter. The main difference is I didn't get my property off the backs of a bunch of young, impressionable military folks. I worked for what I have.
Jeff
Jeff,
(re)Define the phrase: "We are
building for God!"
NTCC-er: "We are paying tithes and offerings to EXPAND the gospel around the world."
Davis: "You are paying tithes and offerings to EXPAND my financial portfolio."
ex-NTCC-er: "I am following a Biblical mandate that requires that a man should take care of his family; therefore, God can EXPAND my blessings!"
Jeff thanks for being a good example of how a man should take care of business.
folks, redefine and take control your life before its too late!
Waiting to Exhale
Bro Jeff,
Congrats!!
I just noticed on your site stat counter that someone just viewed your site from what looks like Kabul, Afghanistan as of 07:56 hrs.
Maybe a brother in the military is online over there??
That is pretty impressive!
Bro Johnson
WTE: Thank for the complementary remarks. I have worked very hard and I can tell you that for sure. Almost 27 years of non stop work minus leaves of course. I still have to put in long hours. I am just glad that I was able to realize that the NTCC has a system in place to completely suck the financial stability out of it's church members.
I went to my daughters school play last night, and that is going to be the next topic of discussion here on "True Stories Of Life In The New Testament Christian Church.
I definitly have somethings to say about that topic, Jeff.
signed, polaris
Jeff,
Every 18-19 year old soldier(or NTCC member) should see a picture of your house and land to realize what hard work and commitment eventually become. I know you are not bragging, just grateful for what God has allowed you to do for your family. Believe it or not, I did not realize how important family was until I left NTCC even though I knew the scripture.
Last week I took a video of my husband shoveling. No he wasn't landscaping some pastor's yard, he was "groundbreaking" some acreage we had just inked a few minutes before. Right now I am picking out housing plans and a builder, all bought with OUR own money, hard work, and sacrifice.
Waiting to Exhale
Casey,
About Sis. Espinoza's welfare it really frosts me too! I too, have had many questions about the future if my spouse passed away. Can you imagine not working for 30-40 yrs. and all of a sudden this poor woman is thrust out into the work force with no skills. Who wants to hire a 60 yr old woman, much less with no education, what can she do except work odd jobs? One day I ran into Sis Espinoza at a fast food place. She had finished eating lunch and she looked so worn out. I felt ashamed that she had to go out and work. Not only did she now have to work, but compound that with grieving. You just don't forget overnight that you lived and loved a man for over 30-35 yrs and not mourn! Is NTCC's solution remarriage? This was a main issue with me. Let's say, I'm alone and my husband is dead the only advice to me will be "God will provide" or what you're really trying to say is "will cross that bridge when we get to it". WHOEVER IS READING THIS BLOG THIS IS WHEN WE DECIDED TO PULL OUT. People want to talk and say "oh they left because of money". That is true, we were not in control of our future. MY SPOUSE WOULD NOT BE AN EXAMPLE OF THE BELIEVER IF HE DID NOT PROVIDE FOR ME AFTER HIS DEATH.
NTCC is preventing a spouse from providing for his and his wife's future, we've been told not to buy health insurance or life insurance it's a waste of money. Yet, the leadership has insured all their properties and belongings in case of fire, theft, death they have insurance. Why are we told not to buy it. Have we not heard many times that Sis. Davis will be well taken care of after his death. What's up with that?
Another question was asked dealing with finances, and the reply was "RW has never given financial advice"!?! You got to be kidding, oh no he didn't! I know I didn't hear that. Can anyone here on this blog vouch for me that they've heard the same thing about finances preached over and over? Or did I not hear right when I sat through all of those classes when RW was teaching. Even when we didn't solicit advice it was given. I know I didn't come up with some of these ideas on my own.
What about Bro.Javier? he was B.S teacher who died of cancer back in '95-'96. The Bro. was with the Org. for how many years and now your gonna send him home to die? No address was provided to send an offering to his family or a condolence card. We found out he was dead because of the trumpet mag.Why is everything so secretive concerning people we love and went to school with. Did anyone represent the church at his funeral? I don't know that's why I'm asking. It's things like this that turn people off to NTCC.
Anonymous said...
"RW has never given financial advice"!?! You got to be kidding, oh no he didn't! I know I didn't hear that. Can anyone here on this blog vouch for me that they've heard the same thing about finances preached over and over?
Jeff Collins said...
You better believe that RWD gave financial advise. I was at a mini conference in Germany in 1987 where one of the main topics covered in the Conference by RWD was how to handle personal finances. I can't believe that someone told you that but that is exactly how NTCC folks operate. They live in denial.
Jeff
concerning the death of Bro. Xavier.
it was probably for the best that he went to his family during that time to be with them.
moral of the story: don't believe ntcc when they say that the "church" will take care of you if you take care of the "church". or that your natural family doesn't care about you like the "church" family does.
Davis doled out ALOT of financial advice. The problem, of course, is that nobody listening to it has any money-- so it doesn't do any good. Vic and I went to AST classes. These were suppose to be Advanced School of Theology classes for a handpicked few. What they really were was Davis talking about finances almost every class. He taught it like he had come up with the ideas, but we found out later that almost everything he taught as his own, was really just stuff he was copying from other authors and self-help books. I don't remember too much theology-- just how to handle money (which we never had). So yes, he gave lots of financial advice.
An earlier post stated:
"NTCC is preventing a spouse from providing for his and his wife's future, we've been told not to buy health insurance or life insurance it's a waste of money. Yet, the leadership has insured all their properties and belongings in case of fire, theft, death they have insurance. Why are we told not to buy it".
This is one of those times I am trying not to blurt out something profane.
If anything would ever get me rowled up, this is it. Men, it is your responsiblity to take care of your wife/loved ones after you die. That is why you buy TERM LIFE INSURANCE now (without a military and war clause).
Only God knows when he will take us home, we don't. So, instead of gambling on my family's future, I did the smart thing. OK so I am in the Army. My wife will recieve 100K Death Gratutity and 400K Servicemembers Group Life Insurance.
That is not enough as I have three kids to raise. So, I purchased extra term life insurance from USAA which is 250K and AAFMAA which is 600K.
When I die, my wife is an automatic millionare and then some!! She just hit the jackpot. I am worth more dead than alive, and that is alright with me.
You cannot beat TERM life insurance! And it is affordable.
Some man who does not take care of his family is worse than an infidel. That's B-I-B-I-L-E.
For NTCC to say "Don't worry, you don't need life insurance that is utter nonsense and should have been a red flag to all prospective future ministers to be.
"What a minute - this ORG DOES NOT CARE about my family's Financial well being". I NEED TO LEAVE.
Disgusting. Utterly Disgusting. You talk about a riot. How would NTCC minsters feel if NTCC just told Sis. Davis to "Go Home" and "Go Work" after Davis kicks the bucket. Exactly. So why should ANY church member feel differently about their posterity?
BRO Johnson
Whoa!
Rev Davis doesn't give out financial advice!? Does anyone remember the conference back in 97-98 where he said do not put your wife's name on the checkbook? He went on to explain how Sister Davis's name was not on his checkbook, and how women do not know how to manage money.
Me and my husband just looked at each other in disbelief? I think that's when we had our first "ah ha ...(wind bag) moment" Obviously it had been a while since he filed a tax return, because the IRS requires that you have your spouse on your checking account in order to receive a return. He must have never deployed either!
WTE
RW dished out financial advice ALL THE TIME! Especially in AST, but also in church services and "special classes." Some of the advice was good (although certainly not original), but some was out there. I was in one such class where he was trying to teach about compounding interest, and he made a math error which exponentially inflated the results such that the suckers in that class who didn't check the numbers went away thinking that sticking about $100/month into US government savings bonds would make them ridiculously wealthy in short order.
As Casey observes, all this financial advice was a cruel joke anyway, since IT TAKES MONEY TO MAKE MONEY AND NTCC MADE SURE WE NEVER HAD ANY LEFT.
Not only did Rev. Davis routinely give financial advice, but he made it very clear that he was the smartest, most financially knowledgable person you would ever meet. But, that's a narcissist for you.
As for women and finances-- I came to the conclusion years ago that I needed my wife's help in doing our finances. This was primarily because I was so busy working and going to church and class that I didn't have the time to deal with our bills properly. My wife did an awesome job and actually paid off alot of our debt without my imput! So, yeah, women DO know how to handle money.
When my husband was sent oversees, the pastor had mentioned how he should still be paying the bills.
oh really? like when he is in the field for weeks?
that was just great financial advice. (smirking and rolling my eyes)
by the way, we didn't do it the pastors' way; we worked it out and it worked for us.
Anonymous said...
"by the way, we didn't do it the pastors' way; we worked it out and it worked for us."
Jeff said...
Good going girl. I Wish I would have done a whole lot more than I did; "MY WAY."
I'm not going to say that NTCC pastors always gave bad advise because that is definitely not the case. I've had a lot to say about pastor Mayers but for the record; he did give me and my wife some very good advise from time to time. The problem is he managed to zero out the good advise with bad more often than not.
I don't always give myself good advise and that is for certain. In my opinion, for all the good the NTCC does they do far more harm, and that is sincerely the way I see it, and this blog is full of reasons why.
Jeff Collins
It takes Money to make Money. That is why NTCC takes Money from you to Make money.
You have nothing. NTCC (not God) has everything. All your wealth. They destroy your health. Got Cancer Brother? Praise God! Go Soul Winning!! That is what ANY NTCC preacher would say.
These Vampires will suck you dry of life, get out while you can!!!
MLJ
Thank you all for confirming my remarks about RW's financial advice. I know I didn't hear it wrong.
I've never understood this. There have been ministers who couldn't handle their finances,yet their wives were allowed to handle the finances. There's so much poop that's been said through the years that could fill a pit. I saw it way back when, yet I closed my eyes and ears to it. I was under the impression that if we left we would be miserable and destitute and our marriage would end in divorce.I have been happier since leaving and we're in charge of our own lives. I too, now handle the finances of our family and have important documents written in my name in case something happens to my hubby. My husband is still the leader and I respect him and his decisions. Our marriage is better and we have money in the bank!!
Nonymous A
They don't send their kids to private school (usually the reason is because they want their kids to be able to understand how the world is so they can better reach them for salvation and they don't want their kids living a sheltered life which I think is cool). They do said by Angie.
My DD has attended private,public and homeschooled. She was still exposed to the "world" at the private school.Even while I homeschooled. We did what many did not. And joined HS co-ops,GS. So again,she had alot of outside influence. Now she is in public and got everything coming at her. This is her worst year so far. Debating on putting her in a small private school.
Angie,do you think ntcc women follow there husbands around like lost puppies. No. It is because we are afraid to talk to other men,be around other men. And if we talk to long to ladies,we were accused of being busybodies or wasting time. So what else can the ladies do. But be around there husbands. I know for me when we were in. We stayed away leadership and womens.
CM
My kids always went to public school, and we never had any problems. I am glad they went to public school. In ntcc you are taught that the school is full of "sinners", but in reality there are alot of good people-- Christian and non-Christian.
"In ntcc you are taught that the school is full of "sinners"
Casey, well stated. Of course, is not the converse true...nowadays the church is full of sinners.
Rev Davis even stated that the devil goes to church. In NTCC's case, the devil even preaches to the sinners!!
It is a sd state of affairs when Kekel makes more in a year than the local struggling school teacher!
MLJ
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