I spent many years as a member of the NTCC and during that time you were absolutely directed not to spend much time with people who the NTCC leadership considered to be "sinners". It didn't matter who it was. If your family members were considered sinners, you were strongly urged not to deal with them any more than you had to. If you sent money to your quote "sinner" family members, then it was common for an NTCC pastor to say it was the same as giving money to the devil. You were encouraged not to even deal with your "sinner" family any more than you absolutely had to.
Well the NTCC leadership and more specifically the Davis family does not even begin to follow the same standard. It was discovered that RWD purchased a winter home down in Arizona. Not a big deal in itself because RWD is a millionaire. I know he has invested to gain his fortune but you can be certain that throughout the years the money he's accumulated to invest originally came from NTCC contributors i.e. church members. Well here is the problem. You give your money to the NTCC, RWD invests it to gain a fortune and then he buys property. Should he leave his property to a "sinner" or a "saint"? What would the NTCC teach? I know what they used to teach because I listened contrary to Mike Kekel's popular belief. They would teach and have taught that everything you own belongs to God and you should distribute wisely what God has blessed you with. They wouldn't advocate leaving your worldly possessions to a family member who was considered a sinner because that would be the same as giving Gods blessings to the devil. I'm I right? You better believe it. Don't insult me by suggesting otherwise.
Well back to the house. The blogger powers that be, posted a link with a document signed by RWD showing to whom he will be leaving his big fat house in Arizona when he and Verna die. His grandson. Is that strange? Of course not, unless you are a member of the NTCC and your grandson decided to attend a secular CATHOLIC college rather than the NTCS and consequently according to NTCC standards he is considered a sinner. So where is your hard earned money going that you so unwisely give to the NTCC in tithe and offerings? Certainly a portion of it went to an $80,000 high school education at a very expensive private academy attended by RWD's grandson. More of your money will go to expenses which will rapidly grow at the Catholic Sinner Secular college which is being attended by RWD's grandson. Lastly, when RWD and Verna kick the bucket, they've willed their big fat Arizona house not to their daughter who went to the NTCS, but to their grandson who is attending a Sinner Catholic College. Go copy the links and paste them in your address bar and hit enter and you'll see.
Just like I was, you NTCC folks are so ignorant and stupid that many of you have completely forsaken you so called sinner family members and you hardly even deal with them any longer if at all. It's clear however that RWD and Kekel have done nothing of the sort. Not only do they deal with Grant, but they fund all his endeavors with your money and your money which RWD invests to buy houses will go to Grant when RWD dies and here is the sick part. You are so stupid, that you deprive your very own loving children who you brought into the world just to sacrifice for the NTCC just to have it go to a "SINNER". Knowing this, I wouldn't give the NTCC one more penny of my money. If you have children or a wife, and you are shopping for second clothing, and going without, and driving a raggedy old car, and you are giving your money to the NTCC thinking you giving as unto the Lord? You are an idiot and I strongly believe that God would totally agree with my assessment.
I love my family and they get things as a result of my income. If I knew then what I know now, the NTCC wouldn't get one dime of my money. Are you going to fund all of RWD's grandson's endeavors while depriving your very own children? Are you going to fund his endeavors knowing he is attending a Secular Sinner Catholic College?
For the record I don't consider the college Grant attends a "Secular Sinner Catholic College" but the NTCC always has, and if you say otherwise you are a flat out liar and you're deceiving yourself. I do consider it a Secular Catholic College and if you want to throw the "sinner" part in, then according to NTCC standards you'd be exactly right.
It's sickening.
Jeff
306 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 306 of 306RB said,
"You participated with the US Military and did things I am quite sure you did not want to have to do. Things you might even have questioned when ordered to do it but you did not see enough wrong in the order to seperate before retirement."
Ange says,
This is a bad analogy. You volunteered for a certain period of time in the military. Once you signed those enlistment papers, you have an obligation you must fulfill.
Participation in the ntcc starts voluntarily. But control mechanisms are in place that make it costly and difficult to leave, but not impossible.
All it takes is a made up mind and willingness to pay the cost associated with leaving.
As far as using the military retirement. Haha. That is such a bad example, Robert.
In the military you DO get a retirement. From ntcc you get nothing.
Ange
Pastor Briggs said...
This Money thing is a pet peeve I understand that. It's the easiest means of sowing doubts. I get it. Good play. However, you seem to want me to throw my own experience away for a couple of nameless people that might or might not be a) real b) telling the truth.
Jeff said...
Not a good play at all. It's no game, it's reality. The nameless people are not nameless because I don't know their names. I do know their names. I don't always report everyone's names for obvious reasons. I could name Pastor Hanna for example but the NTCC leadership would say that you can't take his word because he left the NTCC. Yeah they might not be telling the truth but you might not be either and the same applies to me. I'm just reporting what I was told or what was written by an NTCC pastor.
Even if I did name a name the NTCC would try to smear and discredit their name. So what good would naming names do? They smear everyone who leaves the NTCC who has anything bad to say about the organization. Kekel smeared Deb Shunk. They smeared the Reeds. They will smear you too if you ever leave.
Jeff
Ange said...
In the military you DO get a retirement. From ntcc you get nothing.
Jeff said....
PREACH!!!!!!! AMEN!!!!! Go ahead Ange, PREACH!!! Yeah!!!! All you get from the NTCC when you leave is a proverbial swift kick in the butt and showed the direction of the door.
Jeff
I appreciate what you are saying.. but military life in general affects the lives of others significantly. Telling someone to go over a hill knowing that they will probably get killed could be viewed by some as unscrupulous and immoral. But to others it's a justified means to an end. The greater good is at stake.
I again am not defending the escrow system. I have my problems with it and am on record in a private forum, and in personal communciations with leaders concerning those problems. I do not air those problems publically for the same reasons I don't talk about my disagreements with my wife publically. that's a private issue.
If people don't want answers to why I persoanly do things they shouldn't ask. If I am going to have to go through the gauntlet every time I answer why should I bother?
I like you Jeff as a person. I respect you as a man. But I also see your bias just as clearly as you see mine. You also have a vested interest in this though you might not gain through a monetary means.
I aquess to the escrow system because it is part of being involved with my "group". As far as I have seen and experienced this system has nto significantly effected the lives of my people in a negative manner. I know exactly how much money is in our account. I have gotten draws to buy this building, make significant repairs, and soon I hope to be making some major improvements.
But unlike most of these people you mentioned if I found illegal actions going on, and I knew it. If I found money that was in "trust" being zero'd out when it has been taken up for one specific purpose - this church - would not hesitate to use legal means. But why wouldn't I? I would know I had right on my side. People that just talk about things that might or might not have happened realize they don't have anything BUT talk to go on. So they saber rattle.... act or do not act... fight or walk away.. take it to court or admit nothing illegal has been done!
Jeff no one smeared the Reeds... When Don posted first that they had left I called to find out if it was true. No bad report was given. No smear or even smudging of their name. I was simply told they had come to the decission that it was time to leave. And that was that... nothing else was said or implied.
Sometimes when you make a major step in life you feel paranoid.
When Shunk was leaving someone asked in a private forum if he was gone and was told they were visiting family getting some much needed rest. And that was that. It wasn't until they started the attack that things changed... and I think you can understand why.
Ange - there are times when the military commanders and leaders have ordered unlawful actions to be carried out. Killing of non-combattants is one such occassion. You don't see a mass exodus of NCO's because of bad leaders. We've had some pretty lame presidents which have drastically reduced the number of our NCO and Officer core but not everyone decides to leave. They see a bigger picture.
Ange - So you're saying that it all about the retirment (i.e. the money)? Whose the one most interested in the Cash now? Some things in life are more important to people then the all mighty dollar!
I thought as a preacher I was supposed to follow God not retirment plans and benifits? Would you want a pastor making decissions based on such carnal means?
Jeff said, I can see Sir that this whole NTCC monetary system seems to suit you fine which is why you defend it...
The mindset of most in ntcc is to defend leaders and policies, even when they are less than honorable or even acceptable in the business world or any ordinary church for that matter.
You can't allow yourself to consider or think that there might be anything wrong going on in ntcc regarding finances or even within the personal lives of leaders. It's ingrained in the average ntcc attendee and minister that you are the one who is wrong if you think this way about those who have the rule over you.
I lived this way for a long time, knowing some bad stuff was going on, but you keep pushing it away and pushing it away. Finally you can't live with what you know any longer, and you have to either separate yourself to find peace. Or you sear your conscience, stay with ntcc and make believe everything is okay.
I'll go out on a limb here and say if even half the people who know or have an idea about many wrong doings within their church organization, the shady accounting practices and other sins that have been covered for others, if people were honest with themselves, a whole lot more would separate themselves from ntcc.
There is a "can do no wrong" attitude about leadership and the average guy's mind is so set, that even when wrong doing is brought to light about leaders committing adultery and running their books like the mob, and living in other ways that don't show people Christ, these people are given a free pass and everybody continues to look at them as godly when it's all smoke and mirrors.
Hey Anon... given your statement about living with things you know are wrong: why do you apply this principle only to a church group? Why not apply it to the country as a whole? We have a bunch of crooks leading us why pay into their corrupt system any more? Doesn't your conscience bother you when you thin of all the crimes that have been committed and the evils that have been done? The blatant corruption going on in Washington on a daily basis.... why not leave the country too?
Pastor Briggs said...
I appreciate what you are saying.. but military life in general affects the lives of others significantly.
Jeff said...
I took care of soldiers unlike the NTCC leadership. After 20 years they will get a retirement. What will you get after twenty years in the NTCC? The same thing the Reeds got? The same thing the Shunks got? The same thing the Taylors got? The same thing the Hayes family got? We know what they got. Nothing. Not one dime. The NTCC sucks. The NTCC leadership says it's a business but where their employees / pastors are concerned, they don't treat it like a business. They treat their employees like slaves. No benefits, to lasting compensation, no retirement, no health insurance, no time off. Conferences, time off, they can have it. I heard about the garbage that Kekel spewed out the last conference. I'd rather listen to a clown at a circus. The ones with all the benefits are the ones in Graham or the most trusted yes men.
Jeff
Jeff.. if you want to liken it to a business then let's use the right type of business profile. Each church is it's own "FRANCHISE". Franchise owners do not get paid by the franchise. They do not get benefits and retirments. They get the Franchise and from it's earnings they either put it together and make their own benefits or they fold and go out of business.
Why would I expect to be a "business Owner" one day and then an "employee" another?
Pastor Briggs said...
I thought as a preacher I was supposed to follow God not retirement plans and benefits? Would you want a pastor making decisions based on such carnal means?
Jeff said...
Someone forgot to tell Kekel and Davis that part. Come on Sir. I might buy off on that if your fearless leaders weren't cash mongers. We all like money but I don't want to get mine off the backs of a bunch of church folks who work their tails off for nothing. You are assuming folks in the NTCC are heading to heaven. Not only that, I didn't read the part in the Bible that said you can't make it to heaven if you do 20 years in the military and draw a retirement. Where in the Bible does it say that pastor who get their income from tithe payers are the only one's heading to heaven?
That obviously was a rhetorical question but a valid point nevertheless.
Jeff
Briggs, to draw out the argument you would want them to follow their own logic and leave the country or renounce their citizenship if they didn't agree with our government. Our government can change every 2 and 4 years and it needs a drastic change right now. You could get involved in a grassroots kind of way. NTCC leadership won't change, except in the exceptions it makes for certain individuals or to appear more mainstream. Jesus is who we need to run to and He won't ask you to hand in your citizenship card...
John 6:68- "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life"
Pastor Briggs said...
Why would I expect to be a "business Owner" one day and then an "employee" another?
Jeff said...
You are good Pastor Briggs and I'll give you that but all businesses / corporations aren't franchises either. In fact it's not even close. If that is the case then why doesn't RWD call his churches franchises? He certainly calls his corporation a business. He'll probably start now to justify his money making scheme. How many franchise owners do you know who have to report every expenditure over $50? How many franchise owners do you know who only get $150 a week?
NONE, unless you are an NTCC serviceman's home pastor. So only the civilian churches are the NTCC INC Franchises? The serviceman's home churches certain aren't and the NTCC was built on them.
Jeff
The only NTCC pastors who make out ok from a financial standpoint are the pastors of civilian churches.
The civilian pastors who get a good gig going never want to leave. They would take a huge pay cut if they went to pastor a serviceman's home.
Jeff
RB said given your statement about living with things you know are wrong: why do you apply this principle only to a church group? Why not apply it to the country as a whole?
RB, that's a weak analogy, unless you are trying to say there are crooks in a church group just as there are crooks in government and in the business world. Now if that's what you are getting at, I agree wholeheartedly.
Jeff.. they go into Servicemen's work knowing what to expect. And if you want frankness when I went into servicemens work it was one of these tow men you recently mentioned that came up to me and told me I was really going to start getting blessed (he said while he rubbed his thumb and forefinger together). Doesn't sound like they were all that poor to me when they could make such a statement in such a way. It's smoke and mirrors Jeff.
If you want to win this thing with people who are actually about something bigger then the cha-ching you are going to have to start making biblical arguments.
Choose you this day which crooks you are going to follow: The crooks who supposedly are of God and get rich off of all the hard work of others, or the politicians who just like the ntcc Pharisees soak up all the financial excess through kickbacks and salary increases. The Government will throw you in jail; the ntcc will will cast you out of heaven. Please. They are not going neither will they suffer others to go. It's all a crock. If you believe this, you are naive. Your ntcc leaders teach you to scrutinize everything in your life and every group of people outside of their own hypocritical circle and then they teach you that if you think or say anything negative about them you are condemned to suffer eternal damnation forever. If you used the same harsh scrutiny against them as they use against you, you'd be gone baby gone!
I tried so hard to stay away but could not help myself on this one. My name is Don and I have been blog free for 12 days. I am a recovering blogahaulic. Back into obscurity I go. And let all that have a voice say, Amen!!!!
"But even then the monies are still available to future endeavors. I know this because I have gone into such situations before."
Then maybe you could explain why the nearly $10K we raised in Fairbanks wasn't available to Doug Allen when he reopened the church in Fairbanks--he was never even told it existed, and the people who gave that money didn't give it for NTCC to misappropriate it for something else.
Okay, scriptures you want? Scriptures you will get:
Mt15:9
But in vain do they worship me; teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men.
Referring to ntcc policies that are not in the Bible
MT 19:21
Jesus said unto him, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come and follow me."
Can you imagine r-dub or kekel doing this?
You would lose r-dub on just 4 words, "give to the poor".
VS 25
"Woe unto you , scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the platter, but within they are filled of extortion and excess."
extortion: the act of plundering, robbery,
excess: want of self control, incontinence, intemperance
MT 23:28
"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."
A pretty good description of ntcc leaders.
"I am a part of a group. That group has rules. I follow the rules that are deemed manditory. Those that are descretionary I weigh in the balance and accept or reject them."
Now that's a novel concept--discretionary rules. By definition, a rule is obligatory; otherwise, it's just a suggestion. You know as well as I do that there were never any "discretionary rules" back in the day. Or did you take the Kekel route and just ignore what you didn't like until it went away with the recent compromise? Come on, Robert. Sincere people did what they were told, while others apparently did their own thing and laughed at the naivety of those who were more conscientious. Now the "do your own thing" party has gained ascendancy, but what about all those years that people were under the thumb because they loved God enough to actually do the crazy stuff these leaders said because they were intentionally deceived to think it was the will of God?
NTCC will never escape its deserved evil reputation until real repentance occurs, and that will necessarily involve disavowing their past and doing what they can to make it right. That's not happening, as far as I can see.
"If you want to win this thing with people who are actually about something bigger then the cha-ching you are going to have to start making biblical arguments."
Greed and avarice on the part of corrupt leaders is a biblical argument; I'm sure you're familiar with the relevant scriptures. And as you know, this blog is replete with other criticisms of NTCC that are strictly biblical and have nothing whatsoever to do with money.
Oops, one more time. I don't post anonymously.
"If you want to win this thing with people who are actually about something bigger then the cha-ching you are going to have to start making biblical arguments."
Greed and avarice on the part of corrupt leaders is a biblical argument; I'm sure you're familiar with the relevant scriptures. And as you know, this blog is replete with other criticisms of NTCC that are strictly biblical and have nothing whatsoever to do with money.
Pastor Briggs said...
Jeff no one smeared the Reeds...
Jeff said...
If referring to him a Absalom ain't smearing him, I don't know what is? It was reported that some NTCC people were referring to him as Absalom.
Jeff
Briggs, What if a Pastor wants a diamond pinky ring? Can he get that from the churches account? Just wondering, Like priest, like people!
Ok.. so here we go again... bait and switch bait and switch.... good one guys... good one!
No point in trying... bye...
Jeff... some NTCC people do not make the whole of the organization responsible neither does it mean the leadership called him that. Let's not broad brush everyone...
RB, were you in the services in Graham immediately following Reeds departure? Absalom. Samson and Delilah, women ruining good men. Some people who have been around for years left because they only wanted a leadership position. God is cleaning his church of those who don't belong. Hmmm...who could they be talking about?
Have you ever witnessed or used the pulpit strategy of giving out enough information without even having to use a name? If you're lucky enough to not have your name called out directly, you still know it's done in most ntcc churches and conferences for sure. So when you say someone is not "smeared", that is quite subjective, to say the least.
Look I am talked bad about because I stay... someone else is talked bad about because they leave... It's time to get thicker skin.
As you sow you reap... and though Matt is my friend he did a lot of sowing over the years. But he had a LOT of favor too. And anyone that has been aroudn long knows that. More then most!
Anon: "RB, were you in the services in Graham immediately following Reeds departure? Absalom. Samson and Delilah, women ruining good men. Some people who have been around for years left because they only wanted a leadership position. God is cleaning his church of those who don't belong. Hmmm...who could they be talking about?"
Sounds like they were shooting fish in a barrel.
Paranoia they destroy ya.......
There's a rat, under my bed...
and there's a little green man in my head.....
RB wrote...
Look I am talked bad about because I stay...
Jeff said...
That is a valid point. Reed gets talked about because he leaves and you get talked about because you stay. You are right Sir and I understand your point. I just guess you have to do what you feel is best for your family and what is right. I understand staying with the NTCC. I sure did it for a long time. That is no longer what I do. I've switched to the other side of the fence and that is no mystery and I have plenty of reasons for doing so.
Sir, you do what is best for you and your family but make no mistake, I can't stand the NTCC and I have plenty of valid provable reasons for feeling that way. RWD and Kekel are both liars and RWD taught that parents like me should place all kinds of restrictions their children that were never placed on Grant and even though I was stupid enough to follow their rules doesn't mean I should like it. Now I'm doing something about it and that is where this blog comes in. If they didn't want bad publicity, they shouldn't have played games with me and my family. They played games with M. Reed and his wife and look what he has written. They've played games with Pastor Bellamy and look what he had to write. If they want to keep playing games with people's lives then there will be a lot more of the same. RWD asked Reed when he was going to get saved. Kekel asked Reed's wife what she was looking at. Verna talked all her trash. Reed wrote about it and so did his wife. Pastor Bellamy got threatened with exposure.
I don't call that Christianity. I call that the Mob and I don't want anything to do with them other than to expose them on this blog and some of the others. R.W. Davis is a flat out abusive jerk, who uses people and he's totally misused his position authority.
Jeff
RB said...
Paranoia they destroy ya.......
Jeff said...
Come on Sir, come on Sir. We all know who they were directing that to. Unless I've misunderstood the point you were making it has to do with common sense and nothing to do with paranoia. I got sick and tired of all the slick subtle innuendos that NTCC preachers are notorious for tossing around during service. We all know good and well that garbage was directed at Reed and any other NTCC minister who'd recently left the crooked, double standard organization.
That is just another example of, "if you don't like it here, there is the door". Is that the new Bible way of drawing someone to Christ. If it is, I must have missed that verse.
Jeff
"But he had a LOT of favor too. And anyone that has been aroudn long knows that. More then most!"
He was favored precisely because he sucked up (like we were taught to do) and obeyed unquestioningly every ridiculous decree that was loaded onto him. As soon as he begin to question, he was instantaneously transformed into an alleged bitter loser. That's the way it goes every time.
Well again Vic.. I don't suck up and I don't get black balled.. so what's up with that?
"Well again Vic.. I don't suck up and I don't get black balled.. so what's up with that?"
They know that if they blackball you, everyone on the internet will know it. They like to do their dirty deeds in secret. Going public has protected you, and will, just so long as you continue to defend them. You are sucking up, to some degree, and they always need a convenient example to point to when they are accused of suppressing dissent.
Consistency was never their strong suit. You appear to be getting a bit of favor yourself. I know you're doing what you think is right, and that's great. But I also think that you are ignoring some of the more alarming aspects of your organization's history and practices. Reality is painful sometimes.
Also, Robert, what about that $10K? Were you insinuating before that you think I'm lying about it?
Well, looks like they finally fixed blogger, but you lost almost 70 comments.
That sucks the thread was getting really good and I didn't read the last 40 comments.
You are right and I had nothing to do with it. That's ok, there is more where that came from.
Jeff
Google blogger is messed up. I'm going to start archiving all this information. That way if they disappear like all those other comments did, I can just re-post them.
Jeff
I'll summarize.
We talked about escrow accounts and how in the NTCC, they occasionally get zeroed out and the money is never seen again.
I spoke of three occasions that were reported by three different pastors where escrow accounts were zeroed out and the money wasn't restored to the church the escrow account came from.
Pastor Briggs defended the NTCC escrow system and suggested that my informants may not have been truthful about the zeroing out of their escrow accounts by the NTCC leadership at the time of their departure from that church.
Vic Johanson replied on this blog saying that his escrow account was zeroed out in the amount of almost $10,000 and the money was never restored back to the church in Fairbanks even after a new pastor took over. In Vics last response he asked Pastor Briggs if he thought that Vic was being untruthful.
That pretty much sums it up. There was a whole lot more written but I'm not interested in trying to redo it.
The Google blog is starting to become unreliable. I'll be doing a lot more archives. I don't plan to loose all this info.
Jeff
Give 'em time. Blogger is working to restore everyone's comments.
I’ll add my 2 cents about the escrow accounts. RB said he knows how much is in his escrow account and if the needs the money he can request it. He’s probably one out of 100 Pastors who could make that statement. I was never an NTCC minister, but I was a golden boy that got a chance to work in the office and I saw the books in our church. Anytime something needed fixed in the church or we needed something for the PA system it was always take up an offering for it and I heard this was from RWD. Another brother who as doing the same thing at the servicemen’s home in Killen, TX, which was a big church at the time, also confirmed it. RWD said take up an offering when things were needed for the church.
I can understand your point on escrow accounts not being under sole control of one person for the purpose of abuse, but the org. act like it’s there’re money and not the churches. I refuse to believe that after so many ministers who were pastors left NTCC all would lie about getting money out of an escrow account or the accounts being zeroed out. Be honest with yourself RB it is happening. If there is a need and the money is there an offering shouldn’t need to be taken up. After all NTCC paid for and owns the building, and has insurance on it just in case something happens so what do they have to lose?
Anon. Many pastor's take up Extra offerings for items because it is an easier fix for sure. They don't have to "ask". The process has been cumbersome when you consider the need to get quotes, write up your request, gather further information, possibly get more quotes etc. However Wisdom builds the house and a lack of wisdom tears it down. The need must be valid BEFORE the request will be filled. If someone asks and there is no valid need they will eb turned down. I wish this concept could be learned by our government but there is no one to tell them "no".
It's not perfect... I could be better... but many areas have buildings and such becasue the Escrow was "managed".
I don't ask for funds for everything the church needs. When it is a big ticket item then I ask.
Now, I find it funny that this has turned into your side claiming that I am "defending" the escrow system. I was asked a question "Why do you continue to put into the escrow account" and I answered it. Why do I have to agree with your side?
Vic says he had an escrow account at a time in our organziations history when Escrow accounts were only held by the larges works we had. Fairbanks was far from a large work EVER. Do I think he's lying? I don't know.. do I put it past him to lie not at all. Sorry Vic I just call 'em as I see 'em.
Oh come on rb, you know that you are being zeroed out anywhere you go. like in the last conference. You and the others "so called" new age pastors out there with all the technology at your disposal, you were looked between the horns and told you that your technology isn't going to bring people to your church. Even if you put all these little plays and so on an so forth, it is still the cross, remember? You forget so quick.
Come on rb, give me a break. and then the last day of the conference "they" put on a play in the church, they use the sanctuary to play little mind games, and here you are defending them when they do it in your face because they can do it and you are wrong if they do it.
*despicable me
RB: I just call 'em as I see 'em.
Have you ever considered that some of your ideas you put forth here could be incorrect? In your thinking, is there even a remote possibility you could be wrong about something? Just wondering.
Of course there is... but the WHOLE point of the matter is that Cyber space is not the place to try to figure it out. Text is impersonal and lifeless. It is not the same as up close and personal talks where you can see someone's body laguage, eye contact, etc. etc.
But you actually expect me to throw away what I know for what you say.. that is absurd. I have been with these people in public and in private. I have dealt with them in personal and professional matters for as many years as some posting here have been born and you expect me to throw things away for people that in most cases had questionable character as far as I was concerned?
Let's flip the table is it possible that I am right?
RB: Of course there is...
Glad to hear it, because I always thought you were a close minded individual and because you are very opinionated you always seemed like a know it all.
I'm not saying you're right or wrong on any issue, because your experience is not the same as mine and I was just asking if you ever consider it. I'm glad you at least consider you might be wrong on some point or another. Time and God may reveal some things to you, and if that is the case, I hope you will be able to be open minded if and when it does happen. You might be surprised what you don't know, just saying.
You know, and I am saying this with as much tenderness as I can, you really need to stop and consider how much you don't know. You see, unike most people I believe there are things that are not for the prying eyes of most. Do I ever question my leaders ... yes.. and I have had the gonads to do it several different times.
I don't stew for years about things and then when I pop go out on the net and start venting the things I didn't have the guts to talk about.
But like I've said before when I have a disagreement with my wife I do not do it in front of my kids. When I have a problem with my leaders I don't do it on a public forum.
But AGAIN... why am I being asked to defend them when I simply answered a direct question to me.. why do you and everyone else keep jumping over that issue?
You seem just as opinionated as you accuse me of.. just not as confident in yourself as I. I at least have never been afraid of identifying myself...
Also, if I were using my keyboard to support your cause you would no doubt tell me how right, honest, and great I was. But because I don't see eye to eye with you I'm opinionated. What about the same 6 or seven people here who have been - non stop - talking for years? Their opinionated too right? Do they strike you as a know-it-all?
Sorry that should have read they're
RB wrote...
What about the same 6 or seven people here who have been - non stop - talking for years? They're opinionated too right? Do they strike you as a know-it-all?
Jeff said...
Pastor Briggs is right on that one and that's a valid point. No buts.
Jeff
Even though I know he is a busy man, I like it when RB comments on an issue. We may not all agree, but it brings an interesting perspective!
"Do I think he's lying? I don't know.. do I put it past him to lie not at all. Sorry Vic I just call 'em as I see 'em."
I'm sure this remark stems from the alleged promise I gave you not to post on FACTnet anymore. I invited you to produce our email correspondence to back this assertion, but you wouldn't. Now I'm not calling you a liar, because I think that you just misunderstand what I did say and the phraseology I used. So why won't you reciprocate the benefit of the doubt?
Wasn't it uncharacteristically harsh for a Christian like you, Robert, to accuse me of lying (which I abhor and eschew) publicly as you have in the past based on a misunderstanding? You are behaving in typical NTCC fashion, assuming the very worst every time. We disagree on plenty, but that shouldn't embolden you to make false charges.
I give you my word that I did not and never intended by what I said to give you the impression I was committing to cease from posting on FACTnet, and if you are of such a distrustful nature that you can't accept it and stop disdaining me, well that's disappointing.
Pastor Briggs said...
Do I think he's lying? I don't know.. do I put it past him to lie not at all. Sorry Vic I just call 'em as I see 'em.
Jeff said...
I don't put it past anyone to lie and especially Kekel and Davis because I know they are liars. I wouldn't put it past you to lie either Pastor Briggs but do I think you're a liar? No and Vic is not a liar either. He spends too much time correcting us when he thinks we are wrong about something and I have no problem with that. Now if Vic was just a one sided liar he'd back everything we write but he doesn't and I see him as a straight up guy.
Pastor Briggs: You didn't read where Vic jumped all over people who were referring to Kekel as a child molester? You didn't read where he straightened me out about the laws concerning non profit organizations? And you think it's even remotely likely that he'd lie about a vanishing escrow account?
Come on Pastor Briggs, like you always tell me. You are smarter than that. Vic spends too much time correcting not only us but himself to just make up some stuff about the NTCC leadership zeroing out an escrow account and never restoring it to the church that it came from. If Vic says it, than I take it as Gospel and I'm not just flattering the dude. I live in Georgia and he lives in Alaska and he ain't putting no food on my table. Even though I often don't agree with you Pastor Briggs I think you are a straight forward guy and so is Vic.
If you want to point your finger at real liars, you can look no further than your leaders Kekel and Davis and there is a couple real liars. For Kekel to say that RWD never taught such and such and for RWD to affirm the same when I sat right there and listened to him say it makes both of them liars because my ears and recollection don't lie.
Jeff
Wait guys.. first Jeff I did read where Vic got on folks.. and I applaud him for that.
Second, I did not accuse him of lying I said exactly what you said about me - I think he is capable. That's all no more no less. I just don't know. It is possible he is telling the truth and an account was "Zero'd" out. I'm not in a positon to know. But I also am not going to let it influence my own opinions based on my own expreince.
Vic, I had forgotten about that incident you mentioned - I had no alternative thougth in mind when I said I was "calling it...".
I have mellowed with time I hope you see that.
BUT AGAIN WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING THIS AND NOT MY QUESTION: Why am I getting raked over the coals for answering a direct question asked to me in an honest fasion. I didn't defend anything. I explained my reasons for making Escrow deposits. Will someone please take a moment and answer that?
Sir, I certainly tried not to, "rake you over the coals". I said that I thought you were a straight guy and totally agreed with your next comment. People are one sided around here and Vic is usually the one to try and get things back to the middle. That is the point that I was making.
Please Sir, remind me of your question and I will give you a straight answer. At this point, with Google going haywire and so many posts, I'm not sure what question you are referring to.
And sure Sir, everyone is capable of lying but I don't think you or Vic are liars and I mean that sincerely. Vic and I don't always agree and you and I don't always agree but I genuinely don't see either of you as liars. I actually deleted one of Vics posts recently because he made me look more stupid then any NTCCer ever has.
I Googled Non Profit Churches and didn't even notice that the law I found applied to the country of Micronesia. It was in all English and it even referred to U.S. dollars and I quite mistakenly thought it applied to "U.S. non profits". Well I was certain but Vic figured out that the law only applied to non profits in Micronesia and quite rapidly let me know right here on this blog which made my assessment of certain NTCC dealing quite unfounded. That didn't mean that what I was saying about them was wrong but it certainly couldn't be backed by the bogus law that I drug up. Ha, ha.
Well anyway because Vic made me look so stupid, I deleted his finding and retracted my earlier statement. I don't mind telling it here because it is what it is, but the point is Vic is the only one who caught it and he straightened me out pretty good with his response as though he was trying to make me look stupid. Well maybe I was. I'd say so.
Well the moral of the story is, I didn't take it personal and I'll try and be more careful before I just go posting some stuff that I hastily pull off the internet without giving it more research first. That was my only point with trying to bring more credibility to Vics character. In this case i.e. the escrow dealings, his assessment supported my claim so naturally I'd highlight that and I'm just being real.
Jeff
Having said all that I want to make one thing perfectly clear. The vast majority of what I write is quite factual based on verified testimonies and or my own personal experiences. I know what I heard RWD and his pastors teach and I've watched the Kekels live a life in complete contradiction to what I personally heard taught and mandated.
We here on this blog are making no mistake in that regard. Too many of us with our own ears, heard and were taught these rules to be mistaken, just to watch the Kekels break them all and the standards change. Yeah the abuse has been a huge problem and yeah many people are disgusted with RWDs in your face put people down approach but the double standards bother us about as much as anything. That and the lack of love. Pastor Bellamy and Brother Reed reported that as well as anyone.
Jeff
No problem Jeff..
What I am asking is this.
I came out a day or so ago and answered someone as to why I still would be willing to make deposits into an escrow account. I stated that I did it because I believe it is an acceptible means of protecting a local church from mismanagement of funds by a sole individual.
That was it. From there it digressed into statements that I was "defending" the system, and that people knew of times when moneys were scrapped off. I can't answer to that. I simply answered why I still make deposits.
My question was answered in your last post. I didn't intend to get into a defense of anything just stating my reasons why I believe it is a good albeit imperfect system.
I understand and remember now. Of course I'm confident that you recall my response. The escrow system is set up the way it is to protect the congregation against a renegade pastor that could just up and run off with all the money and I get that. The problem we all have is what measures are in place to protect against the NTCC leadership in Graham from zeroing out an account and paying Mike Kekels salary with it? Or buying another RV with it while making the next pastor who takes over believe that every time his church needs money, he needs to take up another offering?
The NTCC leadership doesn't want to spend organization money if all they have to do is take up another offering. I've heard RWD say that. He put out one conference that the reason that some pastors didn't have the money they needed is because they were too scared to ask their people for it.
Well the problem with that approach is I've heard too many NTCC preachers say that they had plenty of money in escrow and they wanted to purchase a piano or keyboard for example and when they call Graham to get permission to use the escrow account, (which is incidentally a bunch of garbage) they were told to forget about the escrow and take up another offering. What kind of garbage is that? I don't care what RWD is saving all that money for and I don't care how many buildings he wants to buy. Whey you got over $30,000 in escrow which came from the people in the first place, you don't bleed them for yet even more money because the church wants a new keyboard.
That is pure garbage Sir. I remember Oberhauser taking up an offering for a church sign after the org has purchased a building. The org had plenty of money for a church sign. Millions. So why take up another offering from a guy like me with kids and a family to take care of? Because RWD would rather spend my money than the org's money. I was stupid enough to write a check for $150 when the org has millions, and 39 acres of property that the org can just gave to Kekel and it's worth almost $400,000.
I don't care if it was RWDs land from the start. Once RWD put it in the org's name, it became corporate property and a corporation ain't supposed to just give away that much land as a gift to the owners daughter and son in law.
If that is how it works then let me take all the money back out that I gave to the organization and give it to my SON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are probably looking at well over $50,000. I don't want the org to have it anymore. I want my son to have it just like RWD wanted Kekel to have all that land that he didn't want the org to have anymore!!!!!!!!!!!! What is the difference? He is the owner? That is garbage. It's a church not a real estate holding company. I thought RWD was part of the church? Anyone else whoever gave anything to the church, it stayed with the church. They couldn't just take it back from the church and give it to a family member.
That means every time I saw RWD the blow hard write out a fat check for the church and tell everyone in conference, he could just as easily take that money right back out and give it to his son in law. In fact I'd bet my last dollar that he has essentially done exactly that. Write out a big fat check to the org and act like a hero, and then a week later give his son in law a big fat draw or give him yet another big title position and increase his salary. CEO, President of the NTCS, Senior pastor. That ought to bring in some nice cheese.
The org sucks.
Jeff
There, I just copied this whole thread. It won't disappear again without me being able to get it back.
Just voicing my thoughts, please forgive me. Just a simple question for the masses reading/typing on this Blog.."But What About God In All This?"
On three occasions I've witnessed God move through Rev R. W. Davis, two of which were a supernatural word of knowledge. (I'm at a lost to describe the third event on a little island at the 1993 Asian Conference - since I don't understand it..yet) and another word of knowledge experience voiced directly from the mouth of Rev Olson while in a Practical Theology class that left me completely stunned. From what I've experienced, these two leaders in NTCC have God working with and within them that may need to be recognized. And I've no doubt that many reading this blog can remember past events which detail God moving.. so that's my question.."But What About God In All This?"
"Wait guys.. first Jeff I did read where Vic got on folks.. and I applaud him for that." -- RB
Of course you do; because you are defending your church and church leaders.
But you would not applaud him if he reported that
YOUR DAUGHTER got felt up ("groped") and "made out" with a dude who was nine years older than she; when she was 14-15 and the groper was 23-24 years old.
If it was
YOUR DAUGHTER
you would have the dude in jail.
The problem I have with all of this is that too many are willing to sit there and allow the other guy or girl suffer. As long as it is not negatively impacting them directly they are willing to turn a blind eye or worse defend the ntcc. Oh, yes, they want to have great big voices and courage against those who eXpose the truth about the abuse in the ntcc. But they sit there as meek little lambs while others get abused and humiliated and lied about right in front of them at conference or in the bible school. But as long as it is the other guy or gal suffering, too bad. Their actions say "As long as I personally did not experience it, I can turn a blind eye to it." Or worse than that, they will help hide the abuse and support the known liars just because it hasn't hurt them personally.
That is very cowardly.
Ange
M. Riley said,
"But What About God In All This?"
On three occasions I've witnessed God move through Rev R. W. Davis,..."
Ange says,
Even a babe in Christ can answer this from Matthew 7v22-23:
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Bro., you can't go by a few things you have seen in the past. You have to look at the big picture.
Perhaps you should spend more time reading your bible than you do reading the blogs.
Now I know the borg 'leaders' will get a good laugh out of that. To them I say, you should spend more time living the bible than reading the blogs. Then there would be no need for said blogs. But since you ntcc 'leaders' insist on living li(v)es of hypocrisy, the blogs will continue to denounce your hypocrisy, following the example set by Jesus who boldly eXposed and denounced the religious ("Lord, Lord...") hypocrites of His day, pronouncing woe on them for hindering others from entering the kingdom.
continued below
Ange
Furthermore, the bible clearly records that the unrighteous and ungodly Caiphas prophesied of Christ's death simply because of the office Caiphas held as the high priest. (John 11v49-51)
Prophesying alone does not mean you are godly.
RB said:
"Why am I getting raked over the coals for answering a direct question asked to me in an honest fasion."
RB also said:
"Text is impersonal and lifeless. It is not the same as up close and personal talks where you can see someone's body laguage, eye contact, etc. etc."
Don said,
Why is it the same two or three bitter people that always come on this blog to defend the ntcc? There are actually more than two or three but you are the only one that has a name so you represent the ntcc when you participate here and defend them. While you are the one person that stands up to folks that are on the opposite side, I think you have also been able to relate to many of our testimonies and there is no way that you could not see the wrong.
I know it seems like the same small handful of people that voice their opinions in this forum but we represent a growing number of people that have been hurt pretty bad. Many of us have much of the same teaching you have instilled in us and we have been on the inside looking out. We now are on the outside looking in and it is as obvious as the nose on our face that much is wrong with the leadership of the ntcc. We don't make things up and tell a bunch of lies because we hate the ntcc. We hate the ntcc because they had us bamboozled into doing crazy, crazy things in the name of the Lord. People have ruined not just their own lives and relationships but those of their families and friends.
I know you see this stuff Robert, and I know you shut much of it out, but deep down inside you know that the ntcc is damaging to so many people. You've got to know that it's a cult and that so many of the things they practice have nothing to do with God. I think that deep down you are a good person and you want to do what's right. I can't preach to you or anyone, and don't even claim to have the answers but I do pray and hope that people will wake up and see how harmful the doctrines and policies of the ntcc are.
We warn people because we know without a doubt that this whole mess is not of God. We also realize that when we were in, we suffered the same delusions and lived the same routines and sacrificed everything we had to obtain something that was already paid for.
RB said...
Second, I did not accuse him of lying I said exactly what you said about me - I think he is capable.
Kris said...
Ya, but RB said about Vic, "I just call 'em like I see 'em." That's redneck for, "I think you're a liar."
M. Riley said ...
On three occasions I've witnessed God move through Rev R. W. Davis, two of which were a supernatural word of knowledge. (I'm at a lost to describe the third event on a little island at the 1993 Asian Conference - since I don't understand it..yet) and another word of knowledge experience voiced directly from the mouth of Rev Olson while in a Practical Theology class that left me completely stunned. From what I've experienced, these two leaders in NTCC have God working with and within them that may need to be recognized. ... What about God in all this?
Kris said ...
1 Cor 13:2
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
Hopefully that answers your question.
You know, we could spend all our lives trying to figure out the legalities of where the money has gone and who broke the law, but this is what I say about what RW Davis has done to us:
Jeff, you and I and probably so many others gave out of our substance. RW Davis may build roads and give people a place to stay for cheap in Graham, and ya, he gives people fifty bucks a lot of times, but you know, you and I gave out of our substance. He seems to be giving out of his abundance. My question is not whether they broke the law, but how come the majority of the org below him is struggling to keep works afloat while Graham looks like a DisneyLand Church and he has more than one mansion, etc. Why is it that we, the little people are like the woman who gave two mites that make up a farthing, but it was all we had and we had to go without in order to give it? and the Davis family is like the rich that gave out of their abundance? As far as I'm concerned, I don't need to PROVE they did something wrong. It's a simple question of ethics. I thought we were all about giving all we have to the org., and thinking that we should not be selfish and be buying nice things for ourselves and bettering ourselves, but only think about the work. Then I saw the lavish lifestyle of the Davis family, and it sickened me to think that they were not thinking the same way as us. That's all. God's church is supposed to be about love, but all I saw was hypocrisy and legalism, and all I was told was not to be a baby, and you shouldn't need your butt wiped. Well, fine. I'll wipe my own butt, but since you wouldn't do it, you don't get any more of my money!
Sorry, that was pretty graphic. I think the actual terminology was, "you need someone to blow your nose for you." And I guess, "blowing your nose" means, helping a brother in a time of need. Well, since you don't want to help anyone, than you don't need any more of my money. What in the "green earth" am I paying you for then? You don't work, you don't get paid. It's that simple. And I didn't reap much spiritual benefits from a skit at a leadership seminar with EF Gesang and his wife simulating a sex scene, and Rev. Rumpf doing his worldly dance on the pulpit. Sorry. You're fired! And I encourage all the other ministers who spent good hard-earned cash and time away from their work to trek cross country to watch a stupid fleshly skit to FIRE THEM too, and do your own Bible exegesis and start your own personal independent ministries STARTING WHERE IT MATTERS TO RW DAVIS AND MC KEKEL THE MOST- WITH YOUR FAMILIES!!!!
Kris said...
Well, fine. I'll wipe my own butt, but since you wouldn't do it, you don't get any more of my money!
Jeff said...
I see no problem with that.
Jeff
Don and Ange said...
I know it seems like the same small handful of people that voice their opinions in this forum
Jeff said...
Yes, at any given period time there is a small number of people who voice their opinions on this forum. If you were to read this thing from the start, you wouldn't however find a small number in the single digits. Many, many people have come on this blog and written of numerous seriously negative experiences they encountered as a direct result of their involvement with the NTCC.
I wouldn't expect many people to continue to post here year after year. I don't expect the women who wrote about an NTCC minister calling her a whore in church to continue posting here or the guy who said an NTCC minister called his TWO YEAR OLD daughter FAT, or the guy who said that an NTCC minister agreed to pay a certain amount to get a garage door fixed just to back up from the agreement once the guy committed to doing the work, or the lady who said that all her friends turned their backs on her because she started attending another church, or the guy who wrote of an NTCC overseer renting his family a house with a leak in the roof that the overseer refused to fix or the NTCC minister who rented a house with mold in the walls which made the family sick but the scum landlord NTCC minister wouldn't even resolve the problem, or the woman who said that she got jumped all over because she accidentally broke a flower pot while sacrificially cleaning RWDs house, or the guy who RWD glared at while the guy dug a ditch by hand in the rain around a new foundation which was being flooded and just kept filling up with water and mud while he dug, or the lady who said the church took up $16,000 for a parking lot that never got paved, or the lady who told me that Ashmore mocked her for crying because she had psychological problems because of all the guilt tripping she endured over her years of involvement with the NTCC, or the guy who wrote about Snyder the jerk breaking into his barracks room with a screw driver to find out why he hadn't been to chuch because he wouldn't answer the door, or the guy who told of Oberhauser only being concerned that he pay the remainder of a pledge after the guy had already decided to leave the NTCC, or the stories of all the cats being torchered and or killed or drown in water, or the lady who said her pastor told her it was her fault that she got beaten and raped!!!!!!!!!!! Need I go on?
What about the lady who was told she wasn't even a Christian because she wasn't a tattle tale, or the guy who used his credit card to purchase an NTCC pastor a ticket to get to conference that the NTCC pastor didn't pay back or the NTCC pastor who sold his nearly "retarded" (yes I mean that literally) church member a car for $4000 wich was only worth $1700 and he had the brother go out and take out a loan and make payments, or the guy who told of his pastor suggesting that when he went oversees that he start up a Bible study, try to collect tithe, and send the money to the pastor in the United States and the pastor told his wife it was ok for her to get a job while he was gone and she could start paying tithe. I'm remembering all these testimonies right off the top of my head. What about the thousands I've forgot?
THE NTCC SUCKS and there have been literally thousands of horror written about NTCC ministers not only here but on Tracy's blog, Don and Ange's, Greg and Debs and on Factnet and some people have been reading about them for years and they still continue to turn a blind eye because everything seems to be running ok at their church and at their location and in their own bean patch.
They are not worried about everyone else as long as everything seems ok with them. Well not only do I refuse to be a part of an organization that perpetuates all these atrocities, but I dedicate the time to warn people of this crooked organization so that maybe they escape or never get involved with it in the first place.
Jeff
I just want to clarify... the butt-wiping was supposed to be representative of their ridiculing people who may have legitimate concerns. They would ridicule us and say we "need our diapers changed." I just want to clarify. I don't need or want someone to wipe my butt. I just meant to say that if they don't care about us, they don't need any money. They want the money to come in, but when you want something spiritual in return it's, "Oh, you need your diaper changed?"
Jeff said:
"I'm remembering all these testimonies right off the top of my head. What about the thousands I've forgot?"
Don and Ange said:
"Amazing" It seems like you have uncovered a pattern of abusive situations here, Jeff. On the outward appearance we have holiness and dedication and people who "just want to serve God". But inwardly......
Woe unto you Scribes, Pharisees and ntcc ministers. How many people have you hurt? How many people will you continue to hurt? You push people to the limits of what they are emotionally able to go through and then you laugh at them and prod them like cattle until they are spiritually wasted, and then you talk about them when they leave God, "Bless God, if they loved God they would have stayed" and then they find a scripture to justify the way they treated them: "Great peace have they which love thy law, and nothing shall offend them" ps 119:165 How sick is that? The problem is that the ntcc has taken the law of the Lord and added to it and made up their own set of rules. They have made that which is supposed to be a simple plan of salvation and a free gift something that people have to work for all their lives and then they mock them along the way and kick them when they fall. These people are not Christians.
That list of horror stories that Jeff covered off the top of his head doesn't even scrape the surface. These people that do these things need to repent. They need one good dose of salvation in their lives. The things they do are torment and what people have gone through unnecessarily is why hundreds of good people speak out.
We say to those who are trapped in the ntcc: Escape for your lives. Don't let them destroy another day of your life. Don't watch the years of your life melt away while they use your money to do the things that they have condemned you for. Don't spend your time building their empire so they can toss you aside when you have nothing left to contribute. When you look back on the years that the locusts have destroyed you will never get them back. You have to start all over after the years of your youth have been wasted.
But even if you have wasted years of your life in the borg, you will find that life outside is 100 times better. When you can wake up and live your life each day to the fullest as unto God for yourself and not for someone else, you will feel better and begin to heal on the inside. Life is so precious but you must live it for yourself or you will look back on the lost years and realize that you have given them to another and the meaning of your life has been diminished. Where does God fit in? Anywhere and everywhere.
Don and Ange
M. Riley said:
" and another word of knowledge experience voiced directly from the mouth of Rev Olson while in a Practical Theology class that left me completely stunned."
Don and Ange said:
God can open the mouth of a donkey but that doesn't make the donkey righteous.
Num 22:28
"AND THE LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said....
It saddens me that so many who post on these blogs are still suffering. Maybe I'll pray to the chief SHEPHERD and ask him can wool still grow if the sheep keep biting one another?
M. Riley said:
"Maybe I'll pray to the chief SHEPHERD and ask him can wool still grow if the sheep keep biting one another?"
Don and Ange said:
Where did you dig up this pearl of wisdom? The sheep are biting each other? What are the wolves doing?
Maybe at the same time you present your supplication to the chief SHEPHERD, you can ask Him if anything actually happened in Okinawa.
You have been in for decades and you say: "(I'm at a lost to describe the third event on a little island at the 1993 Asian Conference - since I don't understand it..yet)
I was there Riley, in Okinawa and I'm also at a loss to describe it because I don't remember anything supernatural happening. Give us some help here, was there a voice from heaven or a great healing? All I remember is a hyped up emotional show of preaching, hollering and such. If you don't understand it by now, perhaps you never will? Are you having a Rip Van Winkle experience?
M. Riley said...
It saddens me that so many who post on these blogs are still suffering.
jeff said...
I'm not suffering Bro. The people in the NTCC are. You might want to pray that God opens their eyes so they can admit to themselves that the NTCC is one double standard, crooked, abusive organization lead by a couple liars. Then they'll leave the NTCC and find that life is a whole lot better on the other side and the suffering can end.
Jeff
Any Church that promotes leaving "their" organization is the same as leaving God is messed up...The Church is the body of Christ and you don't manipulate it by mind control tactics. The world is full of false "profits" that get rich from stealing you blind and leave you on the rocks. God created us for the purpose of reflecting His love and Glory to a lost and dying world; you can’t hate on people because of their sin, you should love the sinner and hate your own sin. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
I'm here to testify of God's mercy and grace...There is eternal life in Jesus not in an "org". It took thirty years for me to get it but I got it...These five letters is what it's all about GRACE. The ntcc doesn't promote Grace they promote their own agenda. I want to extend a helping hand to my friend David Ransom, buddy if your reading this please contact me I will do whatever I can to help you. Please don't feel trapped anymore, do yourself a favor and leave.
One more thing, while I was in Africa I was amazed at how could any person could come here to the poorest people on earth and steal from them in the name of God. I wonder….
L. Travis said:
"One more thing, while I was in Africa I was amazed at how could any person could come here to the poorest people on earth and steal from them in the name of God. I wonder…."
Don and Ange said:
The ntcc is doing the same thing in the Philippines. They are a poor country and yet they have to send the same "love offerings" in to Washington. (They call them love offerings to insinuate that if you don't give you don't love, and also it is a flowery name for extracting money from poor people. In a town that I know of there is a place called the "Citizen's convenience center" and what it really is, is a place that people throw their garbage or a dump if you will.) People live in squaller and yet the ntcc still requires money from them.
You are right Larry, it is by Grace. If I could buy a ticket to heaven, I would have purchased it a thousand times over while in the ntcc. Thank God, for the Cross. All of the previous dispensations didn't work so God ushered in the dispensation of Grace so that we would no longer have to work our way into heaven. I learned that somewhere....
Don and Ange
M. Riley wrote, "...I've witnessed God move through Rev R. W. Davis, two of which were a supernatural word of knowledge...And I've no doubt that many reading this blog can remember past events which detail God moving.. so that's my question.."But What About God In All This?"
Hi Brother Riley. God uses what he has. Men and women get saved through the preaching of the Gospel, and I dare say, if the devil was to stand up and declare the Gospel, someone would get saved. His Word does not go out and return empty.
Saul had a "word of knowledge", from what was the devil. The devil has been doing this and other spiritual manifestations for a long time.
Ntcc is a vessel where people have been saved, but that doesn't change the fact that the leadership is corrupt to the core. Whether anyone believes what is written on these blogs or not, the leaders will answer to God, as we all will, and then their shenanigans will be revealed.
I can tell you firsthand, before the Lord, that RWD can look you right in the eye and lie right to your face. There's a word of knowledge for you. Here's another word of knowledge, get away from them as fast as you can. Everything is not as it seems.
MDR
Here's another word of knowledge, quit drinking the kool-aid, ask God to reveal truth into your life and I promise you that if you seek you will find.
Part 1
I have been thinking about the question brother Riley wrote about what about God? I have been thinking about these things for quite some time and thought I would share them. Some of you might think this sounds a little crazy but try to hear me out and try not to read too deep into things, let’s just say God has really changed me and I look at things a whole lot differently. I’ll start off with saying this God healed me in the Mormon Church. I knew it is was nothing less than a miracle I was in so much pain the most I had ever been in as a young lady and it hurt so bad the only thing I could think was Jesus I need healing. I went to my step dad at the time and he anointed me with oil and prayed and instantly the pain was gone like the second he took his hands off me. For years I thought it was the devil who healed me because I asked someone in New Testament and they told me it was the devil but more recently I have come to believe it was Jesus. Did my step dad heal me? No it was Jesus it had nothing to do with believing in the book of Mormon or the prophet Joseph Smith I was calling out to Jesus from my inner most being.
I believe when we are reaching out to Jesus with all our hearts he will not turn us away because we are in the wrong place or a place that has false doctrine, when we are reaching out to him with all our hearts he will answer. It is the faith that makes us whole not the man or the church. There are charlatans who do healings all the time it is not the man that does the healing but the person’s faith that makes them whole. I remember the night I got saved I felt Gods presence lift me up from my depression and I felt if I went to church that something wonderful would happen. I ran down the stairs, I ran to Jesus. I walked through the doors of the church and immediately felt Christ because I was searching for him. The Bible says those that seek me shall find me, does this mean we only can find Jesus if we are in the right place? Well let’s just say this God saved me in Rev. and Sister Denis’s church and it is said they were as kooky as they come but none the less God saved me. He didn’t say no I am not going to save her here and now because this man is a kooky person and doesn’t represent me right he knew my heart was reaching out to him and he touched it.
We believe in the men of God because we believe in God, they say this or that and our deep love and conviction for God says I need to take this seriously its coming from the Lord! I was willing to do anything when I first got saved because I wanted to keep being in the almighty presence of Jesus. Not cut my hair no problem, not wear makeup, no problem, not wear Jeans no problem, not watch TV no problem whatever it takes to be closer to Jesus. The only problem is later I realized it was not those things that got me closer to Jesus or kept me closer to Jesus. Thinking on these things has been such a blessing to me because I really doubted my experience in God; I thought to myself was I just caught up in religious rhetoric? Then I remembered the times God dealt with me when I was in agony on my knees trying to figure out how I could get closer to him and what more I had to give up and him telling me you forgot that I love you.
Part 1
RB wrote, "Many pastor's take up Extra offerings for items because it is an easier fix...They don't have to "ask". The process has been cumbersome...The need must be valid BEFORE the request will be filled...If someone asks and there is no valid need they will eb turned down...When it is a big ticket item then I ask."
Hey there, Big Briggs! You and I both know that the reason it's cumbersome to ask is because of the "anal" you are put through from "your pastor", just to accomplish something for the church.
Yes, the escrows are for the protection of the local churches, but they're administered the same way everything else is in Ntcc, with a strong arm and to let you know you are not in control at all.
When I arrived at the church in Killeen, TX, back in '05, I found that the buildings were dilapidated and literally falling apart! I made a call to "your pastor" and he upbraided me, saying, all I want to do is spend money. I told him, sir, that's not true. I just see big needs down here and I want to correct them. I told him, I'll do the work, if you'll clear the expense". His statement to me was, "Well, how much money do you have in your general fund?" Well, that ended that conversation.
I was a little discouraged at this point because I was embarrassed to invite people to a place where the shingles were coming off the roofs, the parking lot was full of holes, the siding was rotting off the buildings, and the sign was falling apart and had a crooked cross on top. I was so ashamed and thought, Graham doesn't look like this.
The Ntcc leaders have always taught that the churches should be an example to the community in appearance. Killeen was just flat out ugly and had been let go at this point in time.
So when I made my next escrow deposit, I calmly asked the teller, would you please write down the balance of this account so I can check it against my books? My books said zero. She started writing and just kept right on writing! The figure that she wrote down about knocked me on my "donkey"! A little redneck lingo there for ya! She wrote down the sum of $279,000.00.
My first thought was what "your pastor" said to me on the phone, "How much do you have in your GF?" So I couldn't wait to get in my van and make the call. I said to "your" pastor", Sir, there's $279,000 in the escrow here. We could build a whole new complex. All I want to do is make some repairs. He very sternly said to me, "Reed, that's not your money." I said, Sir, I know that. All I want to do fix this church up. It's not for me.
Two years went by and one day out of the blue, I got a phone call, Reed, we're going to do some work down there. I thought to myself, this is so typical. He's got it set up that he looks like the big savior coming on the scene, and lets the local pastor know who's really in charge. I thought, well, at least the buildings are going to get fixed now.
BTW, during our time in Killeen, we did take up special offerings for a brand new piano and church sign. Many times in my infamous "career" with Ntcc, I thought, this org. and its leader s**k. More to come.
Part 2
God used Pastor Davis and others so much in my life because I had faith in God and wanted to please him but this does not mean that just because God uses someone in my life that they do everything right or are leading me down the right path. God used me in people’s lives when I didn’t represent him right. Did he use me because I am some great orator or excellent person? No it was the person’s faith in God that did the working. Faith in God can do so much. Faith in God when people say it’s a prophecy can cause us to tremble from our inner most being because we believe its coming from the throne room of God. 1st Kings 19:11-12 God used all these men and women in my life my Pastor Davis, Pastor Denis and others because I had faith in God and was reaching out to him it was just in the end I saw wow I am no longer doing to this please God but men and I began to question things and myself. Let’s just say we should not let our experience with men take away from our experience with God. I was really allowing my experience with men to cast doubt on everything and I believe this was and is dangerous to my soul. The devil was trying to use my bad experiences with people to cause me to doubt true Christianity and my own. A Mormon lady who God used in my life told me while I was in respite told me in tears “the devil will do anything he can to make you lose faith in God”. I feel his presence right now it’s so good to know if we want to be kept he will keep us. Hallelujah.
1st Kings 19:11-12 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; [but] the LORD [was] not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; [but] the LORD [was] not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; [but] the LORD [was] not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
Romans 10:1 1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(What is it that makes us righteous?)
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
In using this scripture I am not trying to use it for a loophole to live anyway you please just wanted to put that out there.
Sincerely Shonda Cannon
RB wrote, “As you sow you reap... and though Matt is my friend he did a lot of sowing over the years. But he had a LOT of favor too. And anyone that has been aroudn long knows that. More then most!”
RB, what do you mean when you refer to favor? We moved 15 times in 23 years of laboring mainly in servicemen’s homes, and usually took struggling churches, stayed long enough to get things going, and when numbers came up, we were moved.
You also wrote (in another deleted post because of blogger problems) of a man rubbing his fingers together, and talking about getting blessed, and I immediately thought of someone. In his case, I don’t think he is lying. :-) Some are assigned to prospering works where the ground work is already laid and the numbers are up. They show up and reap from another’s labor. I'm not sure what condition the servicemen's work(s) were in when you arrived, your duration, etc., but did you find tow man to be correct about his idea of “getting blessed”?
One time we took a “prospering" work and made hefty deposits into the escrow account for 15 months, but we personally received $150/week, period. We did receive a draw from that church a couple years after we left, and though it amounted to less than one escrow payment, we were extremely thankful. The way we found out about monthly draws for servicemen’s directors was a phone call we got from a pastor who took our place in a church. He was bragging how much he received as a draw in addition to his $150/week after the first month there. I’m sure he meant no harm, and probably thought we received the same while there.
I guess we were favored in that we spent so many years overseas and paid for our own conferences and expenses, saved money only to spend it on the next move or the next conference so many times that we became pros at it. We spent $30,000 over five years on conferences, and that was a pretty good chunk of what we made.
If the favor you speak of is something other than financial, I apologize, and I hope you’ll correct me and share what you meant.
Paranoid? No. Thin skinned? Definitely not. It was in going back to the harsh environment in Graham, with all its double standards, that we finally accepted things for the way they really were. It was in personal conversations with our leaders that it was made clear to us that nothing was going to change. God had been dealing with our hearts for a long time that by staying with NTCC, Inc., we were aligning ourselves with certain things, and that made us wrong too. We saw many leave before us, and know how things are dealt with. We decided we liked our happy marriage just fine, and weren’t going to trade the peace of God in our hearts for anything. We did what we believe God wanted us to do and that was to come out from among them and be separate.
Matt and Debbie
Hi Brother Riley!
I just wanted to say hello I remember when you came through Pendelton and we got to meet you and fellowship it was such a blessing. I loved your stories about how God had kept his hand on you while you were truck driving and how he literally kept you from driving off a cliff. It really lifted our spirits so much to hear all that God had been doing in your life and how he was working in you :) We still have pictures of you with our Cockatoo Phebe. We really felt the Lord blessed us with you that day it really was and encouragement.
God Bless you :)
Shonda Cannon
"Vic, I had forgotten about that incident you mentioned - I had no alternative thougth in mind when I said I was "calling it...".
I have mellowed with time I hope you see that."
I'm glad, Robert, because it seemed we couldn't get past that disagreement. I hope you accept that I'm being truthful when I tell you I intended to make no such representation as you supposed. And yes, I can see and appreciate that you have mellowed. Might I recommend you mellow even more ;-) ?
You can also believe my report regarding the $10K. Here's a thought; why don't you ask RWD yourself. I'd be interested to discover whether he'll lie now to try and cover it up, or come up with some kind of smoke and mirror excuse. Either way, I know the truth. I know we raised the money, and I know they redirected it to other purposes (because RW told me, and even mentioned it over the pulpit when he was laying some guilt down on my successor for not keeping the church going), and I know that the church was reopened, and I know that I confronted RW in front of the entire board about it and I know that he said to me that he would restore that money "when the time is right." I also know that I spoke to Doug Allen after he left Fairbanks, and that he advised me he had never even heard one word about any building fund that Fairbanks ever had (and he was here for EIGHT YEARS). How would you feel if you found out that a sum of money had been raised for your church by a previous pastor, but that the org had assimilated that money and not even told you it existed? That is exactly what happened, and if anyone denies it, he is the liar.
That is exactly what happened, and if anyone denies it, he is the liar.
And the church said... AMEN!
Hey Matt, give me a call.
706-905-8554.
Jeff
Matt and Debbie Reed said ...
It was in going back to the harsh environment in Graham, with all its double standards, that we finally accepted things for the way they really were.
Kris said...
I immediately went from gung-ho NTCCer to absolutely skeptical of them when I came back from the field as a worker to be stationed at Graham. I think if others were to be stationed there for some time they would do the same when they see the hundreds of preachers in Graham and the houses being built, all the money being poured into that one work while you think of how much money you sent into Graham and how little help you had doing a work, and how that you got no financial support from HQ's, and when you had a problem, you had to call someone like 3 times and every time it was like... hehhhelloo... ok, brother... remind me again briefly what was your question again? Forget that. I'm outta here!
"Matt and Debbie Reed said ...
It was in going back to the harsh environment in Graham, with all its double standards, that we finally accepted things for the way they really were."
Yes, that's often the case. We came back to a different world than we left, and after a few years of observation at HQ, denial was no longer possible. Anyone with a sensitive conscience gets disturbed once they stop pretending that what's going on right in front of their eyes has some other explanation than the obvious.
RB, is that the right email address? I wasn't sure if you meant to write pator or pastor?
...This is an open forum, and I'm just curious why you will make statements about me here on this blog, but you want to discuss those things in private. I don't get it.
RB is alright. Sometimes he prefers to have direct dialogue rather than blog back and forth. I get that.
Ange wrote..."I was there Riley, in Okinawa and I'm also at a loss to describe it because I don't remember anything supernatural happening."
I was there too, Ange and M. Riley. And though it was a great conference,, nothing about this 1993 conference has stood out to me (or the 1992 conference).
MDR wrote..."Everything is not as it seems."
I disagree Bro. Everything is exactly as it seems.
Gregory
MDR wrote..."Everything is not as it seems."
DS said:
I disagree Bro. Everything is exactly as it seems.
they don't bother hiding the facts anymore!
Yes, sorry it is pastor@ntccpasadenatx.org
Sorry!
Thanks. I thought maybe it was a mistake.
I deleted the message with the previous email address. I figured if someone was going to email you, I didn't want them to get the wrong address.
I also deleted Matt's response because he'd copied and reposted the wrong email address as part of his message. Now the only one remaining is the right one.
Jeff
Riley is a Kool-aid drinker if there ever was one. He needs to read 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 because even RWD can make himself appear as an "angel of light" like the rest of them. RWD-"I'm doing this to be a blessing to you..." with the knife behind his back.
"From what I've experienced, these two leaders in NTCC have God working with and within them that may need to be recognized. And I've no doubt that many reading this blog can remember past events which detail God moving.. so that's my question.."But What About God In All This?""
The working of God within NTCC often presents a stumblingblock to those who would otherwise leave. There are a couple of aspects to this. First, much of what we regarded as a "move of God" was nothing more than worked up emotionalism. RW is a master at this, and once he gets you in the zone, you will think "the presence of God is so thick here you can cut it with a knife." Well, God is more than goosebumps, friend, and the same perfervid atmosphere can be found at a sales conference or a sporting event. It's a universal human element, but he's expert at incorporating it into his religious context so that everyone thinks it's all God. It's not.
Secondly, God is not hindered in the least by RW's hypocrisy and unfaithful dealing. Spiritual experiences are an individual matter, and just because the founder of NTCC is a thorough scoundrel doesn't mean God doesn't care about his victims. If Saul could prophesy as he hunted David to murder him, then the spirit of God can also move through RW when he chooses.
Get your eyes off men. Even if these guys were walking on water and raising the dead, their character is unChristlike enough to cause anyone with an active conscience to flee and repudiate them. They're hirelings and abusers of the flock. Don't stick around for more.
I feel sorry for Grant. All the envious eyes looking in, his own grandfather blasting him in the middle of conferance when he isn't even there to defend himself, etc. Quit talking about a kid who had no choice in how he was raised, and talk about the people who dug their own graves and continue to do so. The kids are just innocent victims.
"All the envious eyes looking in, his own grandfather blasting him in the middle of conferance"
This might have been a good statement if you didn't blame us for his problems. Ya, he's a victim just like us. Boo-hoo. If you want to feel sorry for someone please feel sorry for someone with only one pair of shoes or only enough money for one meal in one of NTCC's "missionary" churches, being told to quit their jobs and getting very little if any financial support from their rich American leaders.
I would have more respect for Grant if he told his dad to keep his stupid Mercedes. He is of age now. He is old enough to vote and drink and join the military. He is no longer a kid. He joins with his father in enjoying a lavish lifestyle on the backs of the poor, in my estimation. He has a mansion in his name and a fancy Mercedes that most of us will probably never own, and many of us would not care to own. Don't call me envious. Some of us didn't leave because we were jealous. We left for our freedom.
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