7/18/2009

Be Careful When You Say, "God Told Me..."

Thread #50 Written below in quotations, is a statement that Diana Taylor posted about four threads back. It is definitely information that I believe should be headlined. For all who don't know Diana Taylor; she was in the NTCC for about 25 years. While in the NTCC, Diana traveled all over the United States with her husband who pastored various churches and serviceman's homes for decades. In 1985, I lived in a serviceman's home that was run by the Taylor's. L. Taylor, Diana's husband, was the first pastor that I ever had while I was with the NTCC. The point I'm making is that Diana Taylor knows about as much about the NTCC as "ANYONE" with the exception of a select few. The Taylors went to the the NTCC's seminary in the 1970's. I don't at all mind some opposing dialogue on this one, but please don't directly attack Diana. Thank you.

Diana Taylor wrote...

"In the New and Improved NTCC I would like to start a list of don't do's...Be careful when you say, “God told me…”

I want to share an incident that happened to me and my family not long before we decided that we were no longer going to attend NTCC. We had come back to the home church for reasons that I don’t wish to discuss, but in that time I began to notice how different things were in the home church.

My son had gone to talk to some of the teens after service while waiting for us to finish fellowshipping with other ministers and their wives. We went home as we normally did, only to get home and receive a phone call from Rev. R.W. Davis saying that he wanted to speak to Andrew. I said sure and handed him the phone. I heard some of the conversation from my son’s response and began to wonder what was up. Andrew hung up the phone and came up to me with this question. “Does God lie?” To which my immediate response was, “NO!” I asked him why he asked. His response to me has stuck with me to this day...He said, Mom, Rev. Davis said that God told him I said this and did that.” I said did you admit to it? He said No because I did not do it. I told him don’t ever admit to something that you did not do, even if someone says God told me.

I left this organization not long after this incident. Many might ask why you would leave after belonging to this organization for 25 years. My reply is simple…If you as a minister of God missed what God was really trying to tell you in something so small, how can I trust your judgment with my life? There is no way in Hell that you can tell me anything from this point on. The Shepherd is supposed to watch after the flock.
"

Jeff wrote...

That incident is a pure shame. For a change I have nothing else to say.

Written by Diana Taylor and posted by Jeff Collins

168 comments:

Anonymous said...

Dianna,
Great post, that man is a MONSTER!

How old was your son at this point?

To call and ask for your son, unless he was over 18 years of age and not discuss the event with the parents show's not only extreme immaturity but also a mind that is scheming wicked devices and trying to hide things.

NTCC people, please watch out for your children, they deserve better than ntcc, put them first! Dad's your the shepherd over your flock, pay attention to your children's needs and watch out for them, especially from monsters who are trying to manipulate them.

t

PS- I have nieces and nephews in the org. I truly care about this scenario. Also I'm one of the overseers of Sunday school at my church of 1500 and I know better than to address a child without the parent being present....that is insanity.

Nellashara said...

Di,
I am glad you stuck up for your son! It pains me to say this, but some parents in NTCC sacrifice their children, there by losing there the child's respect. It reminds me of the times in the Old Testament when parents sacrificed their infants to false gods.
Jeff,

I must say, I was guilty of this. One time my child was unsettled in service(she was just a baby to a year old). The Pastor(I won't say his name because hes not in NTCC anymore) said over the pulpit "You need to quiet that child before she grows up to be a prostitute or a drug addict!" I didn't know what to think. So everytime she so much as sneezed I went to the nursery. As she grew older,she became more agitated at church than at home. I'll be the first to say I s-ed(not sure if I can say the word here as a a parent but there is no other appropriate description) as a parent because I didn't trust my dtr or my own instinct. It took another Pastor(M.D Reed) to say something about my parenting practices were substandard at the least harsh(he didn't say it over the pulpit either!) I told him what the other Pastor had told me and he told me the other Rev. was wrong.He's "tough", but he knows children! I was thankful for it, too! I'm thankful right now! After that(and I cut back on my stress in my life) I began to see my child as an individual...not as a extension of myself!

I know you told me on a earlier thread that all your Pastors were the same (I had 7 different ones in NTCC). Mine were different, from laid back and cool(guess which one I'm talking about) to Bible School harsh without comman decency (he's gone now). I know NTCC says they move Pastors around every so often, for one reason or another...but I think there is another reason behind it. I think it is so the members become more allegiance with the org than the individual Pastor. So if the Pastor gets "screwed over" then its because he failed the org. My opinion..may be wrong


Nellashara

Anonymous said...

Wow!
I'm glad that Diana stood for her son, too.
I've witness too many parents that would rather give up their children than be wrong with rwd.
Some of these children are old now and no longer are in ntcc.
I wonder what the new generation of kids will do like the likes of luna's, jordan's, brill's, and others when their children will experience something like diana's child did.
I remember one couple that are still in, left their 2 children in the town where they were pastoring and they took off for graham because that is where they were told to go, even though these two kids were grown, I think one was out of high school and the other was going to finish high school, but the point is that they left them there and they were in graham, I was just apalled at the situation.
Hopefully everything worked out good for them.

Casey Hayes said...

Davis has missed God on many an occassion, but those in ntcc are so afraid of him that everyone pretends he didn't say what he said. I've sat in church services and classes where Davis would say the most outlandish things, and we would all look at each other like, "Huh?", but none of us would dare say anything less we be attacked as a faultfinder.

Olson called me up in Puerto Rico to say that Davis said I was misappropriating money sent to us-- and he strongly implied "God told him". It was totally bogus info, and I was shocked that Davis would lie about me like that. But, of course, he would never apologize for doing that to me. Another time Davis told me to preach on a certain day, but had told me the wrong day. When the day came he made a point during church service to remind everyone that I was not a good listener or leader. It was humiliating, because he was WRONG and he couldn't or wouldn't admit it-- so he made me to be the bad guy. But that is typical Davis.

You ntccers can think what you want, but Davis wouldn't know the voice of God if God was standing in front of him.

Anon! said...

Jeff,
Just to jog everyone's memory...what was the penalty for prophets who "missed God" in the Old Testament?

Anon!

Anonymous said...

To Diana Taylor:

You said, "There is no way in Hell that you can tell me anything from this point on."

I would be shocked to find out that you used that kind of crass language while you were a pastor's wife. Has something changed other than the fact that you no longer trust NTCC? This is not an attack, I am just wondering if you still maintain your salvation. Notice I didn't come on here and outright claim you don't have it any more. I am just wondering about your midset concerning these things.

I have been sort of studying the people on here and the spiritual changes people have gone through that coincide with their leaving NTCC. This has been a major point of concern for me as I have been thinking on Matthew chapter 18 and what will happen to those who ruin innocent lives spiritually.

In this equation there has to be two sides to the coin:
1. The innocent person who is ruined, (how innocent or childlike were they?)
2. The preacher or minister (did they actually cause the person to offend or sin?).

-concerned minister NTCC

Diana said...

Anonymous said...I would be shocked to find out that you used that kind of crass language while you were a pastor's wife. Has something changed other than the fact that you no longer trust NTCC? This is not an attack, I am just wondering if you still maintain your salvation. Notice I didn't come on here and outright claim you don't have it any more. I am just wondering about your midset concerning these things.

For your information...No I never used that kind of language while I was a ministers wife. I have many witnesses to my life as a Christian. I will say this...No I am no longer attending any church because of men like this. Do I still believe in God? Yes, I most definitely do! Do I believe that there is a judgment day coming? I most certainly believe that it is coming. For men like this as well as for myself.

This is to Anon that has nieces and nephews still in the org. My son was 16 at the time. Your right he should have asked to speak to either myself or his dad, not directly to our son. Did he offend me when he did that? Hell yes...(that's for you anon... concerned minister in NTCC.

Diana said...

To concerned minister in NTCC...

I am not attending any church at this time. I just feel that if someone is going to expect me to live a pure and holy life and they are a leader then they better damn well live it themselves. Don't preach to me that it is wrong to watch tv and you yourself are watching movies in the privacy of your home. If you have been in the org for any length of time concerned minister you yourself know that many things have changed! Why? Have you ever asked yourself that question? If you are honest with yourself you know why.

I got tired of what I saw, and now that I have heard so much more since I left. I think I would probably almost fit in with you all again. Because now your doing some of the things I have been doing since I left the org.

Ns said...

Concerned Minister NTCC,

Wow I'm surprised! Di shared a story about how her son was disrespected and all you can talk about is her crass language?

I feel let down Concerned Minister!

Ns

Diana said...

Sorry Jeff and others, if my language is offensive. I will tone it down. I've just had that bottled up for so long.

Anonymous said...

True colors.

Anonymous said...

I'd rather show my true colours than be a hypocrite!

Diana said...

Very familiar NTCC quotes Anon...

Anonymous said...

Concerned minister,
if you was to research a cult escapee. There is stages a person goes through. Denial and shock. Anger. Acceptance and moving on. I am no doctor. I know I went through those stages in that order.
I am no into acceptance and moving on. But not forgetting. And not letting ntcc get there clutches into fresh new recruits. So they can screw with there minds like they did me.
Concerned minister you may be a good minister. Be concerned about people's soul. Not run your Church like a dictator like rw would want you to. But you funding the evil ugle empire(ntcc). So the dispicable minister's(magority) go out and mess with people's souls. So much that they do not want to attend Church ever again.
Just because you may be one good Apple in the barrel of rotten apple's. That means you should stay in a corrupt Orgaization? I don't think so. God is not pleased with ntcc. And just like rw always loved to say. The wheels of judgment turn slowly. But they do turn. God judgment on all the harm ntcc has done to people. They will get what is coming to them!

CM

Anonymous said...

Is says not to take the LORD'S name in vain. where does it say that what is considered curse words in today's language is a sin?

For those ntcc fanatics. Always wondered this. Of course while in ntcc could never ask this question. or else I had a so called heart problem!

CM

Diana said...

There are many still in the org that are wondering what's up with the cancellation of service this weekend. I've never heard of service being cancelled for the 4th of July. Hmmm...must be the true colors coming out of those behind the cancellation.

double-D said...

You mean there are NO services at all this weekend? This has to be the utter collapse of ALL. It would never be permitted when I was there from 1974-1982. The Holy Spirit does NOT take vacations! I know that because He does not take COKE breaks during- between classes! We were told this! I know He does not take the 4th of July OFF.

I know Diana and Lee Taylor. I bow my head and take off my hat to them, if they could take 25 years of NTCC. For you see I jumped out of the pot- after 7-8 years of steadily increasing temperatures and pressure.

We all love the Taylors, and contrary to those still in NTCC where you have NO friends, I consider them as friends now. All of you outside of the borg, are friends in a way that we could never have in the borg. In the borg there is no freedom to think for oneself. No freedom to know the Spirit of the Lord for yourself. As I said before, I will always wonder- what it could have been minus the mess. We all could have made it truly the BEST - because we would have hammered out the best practices of an organization- and we would have excised all the cult-practices immediately.

You see, the ministers who labor and build the organization should be the ones who determine how it acts- not the guy at the top! History has shown over and over- (Read the story of John Alexander Dowie, or William Branham...) it is possible to know God and mess up because you are a stubborn, well, ...mule.

Anonymous said...

Dd,
Don't you know the Holy Ghost is patriotic!

Anonymous said...

concerned minister ntcc,
To ask Dianna that type of question reveals that your idea of righteousness is based on outward 'SHOW' , you need to realize that christians are much better off being honest and appearing "crass" than being a fake and a pharisee.
you stated that you have been analyzing people on here- this also reveals that your mindset is skewed to a "better than though" attitiude.

look, im not trying to be tough on you or call you our as a pharisee or anything like that, but i have been there and i understand how it is to 'oh so subtley' look down on others because of some outward manifestation while they are upset or just being honest. i am not saying that it is a good thing, but i am saying that i would take an honest person over a self-righteous person anyday and i believe Jesus would as well, lets try to be a little more self-analytical rather than analyzing everyone else's behavior....remember Job's "friends" thought they had it all figured out as well

t

Diana said...

*Smiling at Anon's comment about the patriotism of the Holy Ghost*

DD...So much we could not do back then is now permitted. This member could not believe that service would be cancelled...she continues to question it won't be long she will be out as well.

Anonymous said...

sorry: thou

t

double-D said...

And furthermore, when I taught Church History in NTCC, I asked RW if I could bring the students ALL Church history- from the Pentecostal split of Assembly of God, PCOG, etc... to the VERY present day (1977-79). He said "No". I think this is shortly before they installed microphones in the rooms to hear what the teachers were teaching. This was prior- the teachers teaching from pre-formed lessons verbatim. IN those old days we relied on the "Spirit". But at times they shut that down too. One time the students broke out into spontaneous prayer.

I was working the previous day - preparing for the class to come- the SPirit fell on me when I was singing "Jesus, Something About That Name". I knew something was going to happen that night in class! Well, the prayer continued for 1.5 hours almost into the next class- then a break as the 2nd class was starting- once more students began going into what we used to call "Spirit" manifestations (really the students were so hungry - they would cry out) But then RW put a stop to it- He said- I've prayed about it- Its not the Holy Ghost- He does NOT take coke breaks!

From that point on the new rule was- one person prays- that's it!
However- I recalled many of JHO's classes did go into all prayer- several times.

But they all learned- only one man really could know the Spirit. Only RW, so no matter what you thought- you could never know the leading of the Spirit yourself.

But now we see this as manipulation and mind-control technique # 7 - make the people doubt their own thinking abilities!

double-D said...

One last thought- as true friends I think any of us- (I know I would) - if those who I knew left NTCC - needed anything- in this life- I would try to help them- because of the story in John 9: After the religious people kick you out of the big temple edifice- with its rituals and huge compound/land - Jesus goes and seeks you out- to STILL be your friend to the end! His LOVE still prevails!

Darwin Durek
(503) 618-8197

Diana said...

I remember some of those classes DD as if they were yesterday.

Diana said...

I am with you Darwin. If anyone needs my help and it is in my power to do so, I will help them. That is if you can put up with my crass language.

Peace out!
Diana Taylor
253 214-5957

Vic Johanson said...

Concerned minister, damn and hell are straight from the bible, and Diana wasn't using them to revile anyone. Stop trying to promote artificial, manmade standards that are based on nothing but personal opinion. It's amazing how you can strain at a gnat like that while swallowing the camel that is NTCC. Do you realize how phony you appear?

If you're offended by Diana's "crass" language, you must not have spent any time sitting up at the "main table" in the fellowship hall listening to RW tell vulgar jokes. I guess most folks think the "apostle" is up there dispensing holy wisdom to his disciples, but mostly it was ribald humor, politics, and construction talk.

Vic Johanson said...

They CANCELLED SERVICES? Then Kekel is certainly lying if he says nothing has changed. In sixteen years, I never saw it happen once; we risked our lives driving through blizzards to get to church. Instead of cancelling services during holidays, they would often hold "special services," robbing us of those rare opportunities to get some precious free time.

Nothing has changed? Riiiiight!

Anonymous said...

I always thought the use of the N-word and words for certain anatomical parts of women was pretty crass. They were prevalent in NTCC semantics....but I guess we are finding fault or gossiping!

Anonymous said...

thats interesting-
concerned minister, how do you feel about RW's use of the 'N' word and his jokes about women? do you hold him to the same standard that you hold Diana to?

just wondering?

t

LTravis said...

I'll say it again, Jeff and I talked with Kekel on the same day and he told me nothing has changed.
Hmmm... something is amiss.

Diana said...

Concerned Minister said...I have been sort of studying the people on here and the spiritual changes people have gone through that coincide with their leaving NTCC.

Concerned? You should do a study on those that are still in NTCC and the spiritual changes that have been taking place.

How has fake nails spiritually improved the church? How has allowing your children to play sports spiritually improved the church? Not that I think any of those things are wrong, never did. The only reason I bring this up is because they were preached as wrong by many of whom you consider to be men of God, but now it is ok. What changed? Seems to me your studying is long overdue with the very church you belong to.

Now I ask you to take that along with Matthew 18 and also take the verse of scripture speaking about a brother offended. I wonder what you will come up with...

I even posted my home number Concerned...You can call...

LTravis said...

Just for the record nothing has changed since 1979-1981 because our conversation was specifically about that timeline.

Chief said...

Here are some interesting facts. First Nellashara wrote: "You need to quiet that child before she grows up to be a prostitute or a drug addict!"

Jeff said...

What amazes me is that certain folks are observant of Dianna's use of hell and damn while totally overlooking such a truly shocking statement given by Nellashara. The pastor at that time had the absolute audacity to make such a remark to a mother about her infant child? That is just totally unacceptable. That is far worse than someone using the word hell. Diana tells of yet another shocking story about a minister totally overstepping his boundaries while perpetuating lies about Diana's son and the only thing that catches someones attention is the word hell or damn?

That is why I don't want anything to do with religious folks. Vic said it right about people straining at a gnat. It's the truth. Religious NTCC folks totally overlook the real abuse while homing right in on the use of the word hell.

Secondly I deliberately posted Diana's statement with the word hell included. I could have deleted it knowing how the NTCC folks would react and I could have deleted it from her original message and reposted it as well. I thought to myself: Self? Why change what Diana wrote? I knew that NTCC folks would capitalize on her use of the word hell. And you know what happened? They did. But what I didn't expect was to see Nellashara tell of a totally needless and senseless and unconsiderate statement made by and NTCC pastor and not one NTCC person picked up on that at all.

As I always say. NTCC folks lack common decency and they are very often totally inconsiderate.

You NTCC guys worry about the use of the word hell but could care less if a church member gets verbally mistreated time and time again. You NTCC guys have your priorities totally mixed up. You may not see this but you NTCC guys are like judgmental pharisees.

Jeff

pdq said...

Dirty jokes? This is OK, as Pastor Davis tells them.

Sex with children? This is also OK, as Rev. Kekel did it.

Breaking up marriages? Divorce? Have at it. Divorce is many times encouraged, and even the only honorable decision in NTCC's culture.

Hypocrisy? Double-standard? No problem.

Using the words 'Hell' and 'Damn?' This is a no-no Diane, and a much better indicator of your standing with God, over any of the above.

Love you Sister,

pdq

Anonymous said...

pdq said...

Sex with children? This is also OK, as Rev. Kekel did it.


WOW!!

Chief said...

t wrote...

"I would take an honest person over a self-righteous person anyday and I believe Jesus would as well, lets try to be a little more self-analytical rather than analyzing everyone else's behavior....remember Job's "friends" thought they had it all figured out as well"

Jeff said...

Extremely well put t. Extremely well put!!! The only thing I could slightly change or add to what you wrote is that I can say without doubt that Jesus "WOULD" prefer a honest person over a self righteous person. I don't believe that so to speak; I know it to be true. I do understand what you were saying t.

I always say that Jesus had a far greater problem with the religious folks than any other type of people by far. Jesus would have a far greater problem with folks who abused their church members than he would with someone who used the word hell while describing their displeasure with such abuse which is what Diana was doing.

Jesus said... Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Jeff said...

Maybe Diana should have wrote this: "There is no way from this point on that I will listen to someone is twofold more the child of "hell" than the people that he is trying to lead away from "hell".

The NTCCers would have had a hard time finding fault with the word hell being used in that fashion because Jesus himself used it in that fashion.

I have to change my rhetoric. I need to start calling abusive and hypocritical NTCC folks, "Serpents" and "Generation of Vipers" and "Blind Guides".

Here I like this one:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, NTCCers, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

NTCCers are notorious for making clean the outside of the cup but within they are full of "extortion"

Definition for the word "extortion"

"The crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority."

Sounds like RWD and Kekel all the way. You say there I go with my money hangup again? It seems that Jesus had a hang up about extortion also. Imagine that.

Definition for the word excess:

"More than or above what is necessary, usual, or specified; extra: a charge for excess baggage; excess profits."

Sound like RWDs and Kekels houses.
Extortion and Excess. Hey NTCCers: Don't get mad at me, get mad a Jesus. I didn't write the Gospels or state the quotes contained within. Seems like Jesus has a serious problem with people like RWD and Kekel who commit extortion and live in excess.

Jeff

IdahoAngie said...

WOW! And I thought how my kids were treated by a certain sister while in NTCC was bad. But having RWD calling my home and talking to my son like that I would have been more then hot under the collar. And having a Pastor making comments about my infant child in the middle of service like that.....what in the "hell" are people thinking?

Anyways...

I spent some time with my Pastor and his wife today. And we had a good time laughing and joking around. And they made the comment to me "don't you ever change" a few different times. And his wife said Don't you ever change no matter who comes along. Be yourself and if people don't like it they don't have to stick around for it." She also said the day Angie isn't joking around with you is the day you have to wonder if something is wrong. But then again they have both known me since I was 10. They were my youth pastors growing up. I hadn't seen them in 14 years. And I ran into them 2 years ago? Now they are my Pastors again. I know some of you who are out are still looking for the "right" church. And some of you gave up on "church" all together. And some or all of you haven't had the luck I've had. But please don't hate me or dispise me for it. I'm just here for the ride. Doing whatever God has for me to do. And it's been hell along the way but I am not giving up.

Also my Pastor and his wife have no problem with people saying hell, suck(s), damn, and Oh My God if they are not used in the wrong way. And for educational purposes saying Oh My God is NOT saying the Lords Name in vein.

What does it really mean to take the Lord’s name in vain?

“God” is not the name of God, but a common phrase used to refer to deities in general. How can a generic classification be considered a formal name? It would be like you saying that my name is “person.” God gives His name to Moses in the book of Exodus. His name is Yahweh. Would you have the same offense if someone were to stub their toe and say “Yahweh damn it!” or "Oh My Yahweh"? I doubt it.

Anonymous said...

Interesting responses everyone...

-concerned minister NTCC

Anonymous said...

concerned minister,
Interesting. And So full of the TRUTH. That you have no comback!

Anonymous said...

he's analyzing

LTravis said...

I don't care much for comebacks. I would like concerned minister to answer some questions and address some of the issues.

Chief said...

I'm not a big advocate when it comes to using the words, hell or damn or the f bomb, or sh.., or A..

However I truly do feel that the bad treatment that many NTCC pastors have given their church members is far worse that using the word hell in comparison.

Now there is one thing that I noticed when I started this message. I didn't feel as though I had any moral reservations against writing the words hell or damn. I did feel that I had some definite reservations with writing the other words which is why I would only use the first one or two letters to illustrate. It's not like we all haven't heard those words so I am sure everyone knows what I was referring to.

I guess the main difference between damn and hell and those other words is that damn and hell are frequently found in the bible. The word hell is found 32 times throughout the KJV bible and ironically only 14 times in the NIV. For what ever reason the NIV toned it down a little bit?

Now having said that, the word hell is always referenced as a literal "place" through the KJV except in one scripture, and that one is certainly debatable. Jesus used the word 15 of the 32 times that it is found written in the KJV. He actually used it in a different context than we find the word hell commonly used today.

For example some folks will say, "to hell with that idea." What they are actually saying is, "that is not even an option" or "forget about that idea."

Now having said all that, NTCC people constantly use the word hell in their sentences. They are always using the word "hell" as the name of a place that everyone is going to other than people who believe spiritually the same way they do.

Because it is used so frequently by religious folks, they seem to feel that they have effectively formulated the proper equation concerning the appropriate use of the word hell. They are trying to follow Jesus's pattern for the use of the word. Jesus somewhat broke away from that pattern when he referred to a hypocritical "religious" convert as a quote, "child of hell." That person wasn't literally in a place called hell, "yet" because they were still on this earth. So Jesus took the word slightly out of context then as well.

I guess religious folks feel that it is appropriate to say, "so and so is going to hell", but they feel it is not appropriate to say, "what the hell". No matter how you look at it, it is the exact same word being written or spoken audibly.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

there is one incident a long time ago that happened. and since leaving ntcc and hearing other christians say a profanity (not in a manner of speech but out of discussing the topic to "quote" the word) made me think about it all.

while in ntcc there was a sister from africa where the word poo was equivalent to the s--- word. but nothing was wrong with the s--- word.

and she had a baby and said ooo the baby s---.
then the sisters told her that the s word was a bad word. but in her country poo was equivalent to the s--- word but here in USA poo is ok.

So, which does God consider bad words ?
Or is it more a matter of the heart ?

dth

Anonymous said...

yes, i remember, holiday or not, there is still soul-winning and church, etc.

dth

IdahoAngie said...

DTH,

To answer your question. A lot of the words we here in America consider curse words are not considered curse words in other countries. And what we do not consider curse words in other countries are considered curse words to them.

It's really confusing. But I remember my grandparents talking about that when I was younger. They were missionaries. Spent a lot of time in the Philippines and in Africa. And it took them a long time to get used to people saying what is normal and not a curse word to them, but is a curse word to us. And visa versa.

Most of the words we consider curse words are only considered curse words because people use them out of context. And don't worry you won't ever catch me throwing the f, s, b, w, a, etc. Bombs on here or in my actual daily life for that matter. But I will say this. Growing up in church we were never told Hell or Damn were curse words. But it is all in how you say a word that makes it a curse word anyways. I was never told Suck was a curse word but while in NTCC I got my butt chewed for saying it. Well if suck is such a bad word then why do they have "suckers" which are candies? Why do people tell you to suck on a straw? Again suck is not a curse word and the person who thinks it is has their mind in the gutter and kindly needs to pull it out. Because when I use the word suck I am not talking about certain activities that I see as gross in the first place. So if someone ever gets offended when you use that word it tells you where their brain is.

Anonymous said...

anyone know if diana guerrero / oloans (guerrero is her maiden name) is still stuck in ntcc ?

Diana said...

Diana Oloans went with the HOP church. I believe they live in Georgia but not sure.

LTravis said...

Have a great 4th I'm thankful that we don't have to live under any dictators rule. Let freedom ring.

Diana said...

On the topic of "Thus saith the Lord...", I remember one conference Rev. Davis got up and said he had a dream about compromise coming into the org. I don't know if anyone remembers this dream. He said he could see the trees moving back and forth as if a strong wind was blowing, but could not hear the wind.

I wonder if he ever thought that compromise would come with members of his own family. Was it not Eli that was judged for this very thing?

It's interesting how that when someone says something that has happened to them you immediately get these wacko's that come running to the rescue on the defense of NTCC.

I have to ask those that are reading this blog, because I know that many from both sides of the fence are reading here. Those that have left and those that are still in. What do you have to show for all the years of your hard labor? This question could go to someone like Concerned Minister. Are you still moving from city to city every 2 to 4 years?

I asked this to someone who is still in the org. Someone very well respected and I believe they love God with all their heart. Their reply was this, "God knows that we could not handle possessions." This I found really interesting because if that is the case...then it must apply to almost 95% of the ministers. The reason why they don't have a nice home with several cars in their garage. Along with being able to send their children to nice private schools is because they cannot handle wealth and possessions.

Let me ask this question to those still in...if your married...who is going to take care of your wives and children? Oh yes, how could I forget...if you were a leader you would provide for them before you die. What kind of insurance do you have as a full-time minister? You better get one that will help your wife find another job so that she can provide for your children if you have any. Check it out! Do research on that. I looked at those ministers that were faithful and don't have a d#@$ thing. That really ticks me off. Is it God's fault? NO! A thousand times NO! Wisen up people! Years of labor for the Lord is one thing, but years of labor for an org, NOT!
Hmmmm....Study that one Concerned minister.

I hear they no longer have fellowship meetings. Why? Also, I also heard that you are no longer required to go to conferences. I really have to wonder why on that one as well. Awww...nothing has changed! Blah, blah, blah...

I want to say that I have many good friends still in the org. I know that they love God! I hate the fact that they are being used.

Am I going to go to hell (Concerned Minister) because I am speaking out against the org?

Chief said...

Diana, I hadn't heard about the fellowship meetings part. Ministers are in fact no longer required to attend conference though. That may not be a written rule or even a spoken rule, but I know of pastors who aren't attending conferences and it has become acceptable. It has become acceptable because they are still allowed to pastor. The proof is in the pudding.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

What saith thou Concerned Minister?

Anonymous said...

he's just analizying us and finding what exactly is the sin that is causing us such rebellion..

Anonymous said...

study this concerned minister:

1. the adultery that goes on in a "holiness" church. (now that is worse than saying "damn" and "hell".

2. the common divorcing and remarring of the members.( how many of the divorces were truly justified scriptually?)

3. Now, I am not saying that all the people in ntcc have no love (as described in Corinthians), but you must admit that there is alot of it lacking amongst and between husbands, wives, children, brothers, sisters, ministers, and so on.)

Could you study that and then relate your findings to this blog? This stuff happens WHILE in ntcc, when people are attending services and prayer meetings, conferences and revivals. Can you measure the spritual level of your peers by just these few topics listed?

To the person saying better your true colors show than be a hypocrite. That is so true. That is something many of us have had to learn.... to be real, to be true, and not to cover up.

Anonymous said...

there is no sin to those that have left NTCC as NTCC says there is.

those are absolute lies !

Anonymous said...

there is definitely sin and compromise IN NTCC. Someone is just waiting in the wings to do another "sting" operation like Denis did!

Diana said...

I like what you said about the adultery Anon.

Some of the women are just about married as many times as Elizabeth Taylor and they are still in church. I don't understand something here. Is it always the man that is wrong? Or did the wife play any part in trying to keep her marriage together. It could be that she just picked a loser husband every single time.

There was another case of marriage and divorce that I know of. I had to ask her what happened. Her reply was that she was never saved! I said that is so strange to me Sister because I saw you when you gave your heart to God, and I watched you grow in that year before you went to Bible School. Just to clarify something here, her marriage ended because she left her husband. So that was why she was allowed to remarry again.

I guess that excuse can be used anytime..."Well, I was just never saved that is why I left my husband or wife."

Anonymous said...

people may be allowed to be remarried because a man says so but it is Jesus that said it is adultery.

marriage / divorce in ntcc is permitted when one spouse doesn't want to attend ntcc anymore.

i have heard it said that this is desertion and thus qualifies one to be remarried.

a twisting of the scripture this is.

dth

Anonymous said...

Concerned Minister (My left foot):

Thank you for making some of us the objects of your study. As the busy minister that you are, I'm certain you have plenty of time to make honest and noteworthy evaluations of the people who come on this blog to express their cares, concerns and frustrations with NTCC as well as keeping tabs on your own congregational members.

It seems to me a very profound thing that people who have left an abusive cult such as NTCC would experience a change of some sort - but then again, I'm not the expert that you fancy yourself to be!

When you have completed your spiritual and psychological analysis, please enlighten the rest of the group with your findings. We would all love to see how we measure up to your liturgical standards.

You could call me prophetic but I'm going to step out on a limb and say that I probably won't rank too highly on your liturgical break down - but just keep praying for me.

-to be or not to be ... Concerned that is.

Jeff said...

Unfortunately my goal with this thread was hardly met. I wanted people to see that RWD is not the great spiritual leader that so many make him out to be. I also wanted folks to understand why someone who had been with the NTCC for 25 years would leave.

Of course we all have are reasons for staying with and leaving the NTCC however Diana's testimony should have been yet another eye opener to folks who are straddling the fence. When all was said and done I don't know if even 5 people even addressed the situation where RWD called someone's house and rather than talk to the parents he instead elected to talk to the child.

That is utterly poor leadership no matter how you look at it. If you have a problem with someone's kid you talk to their parents especially if you wind up having to call their house.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

I never had rw or mk call and talk to my child. But I did have Mike K. call and ask to talk to my husband ABOUT ME! My DD was very friendly child. She was playing around a questionable older boy that was out playing. I told her to stay away from him. In an apartment living,kind of hard for kids to avoid other kids. I was tattled on by another so called concerned sister. She thought I was sleeping while my kids was playing outside. I was not sleeping!!Grrr! Mike K. did not talk to me about the problem and warn me. He talked to my husband. talk about feeling like a little kid!!!!! Get tattled on,then my husband is correcting me via from Mike K. JUST ANOTHER MAN!

The lady that I think tattled on me. Did not care for my DD. She was annoying her DD. So get me in so called trouble. I was so steamed after that phone call. I got my husband trying to calm me down as if it was no big deal!

Jeff said...

I understand Anonymous. Kekel should have talked to both of you at the same time if at all. If the truth be know it probably wasn't his business to begin with. NTCC pastors are notorious for sticking their noses in things that shouldn't concern them in the first place.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

Jeff,
I never understood the whole adults "tattling" on other adults thing!

Ns

Anonymous said...

I think since it concerned me. I should have been the one talked to. He choice to talk to my husband. Because I am a stupid,dumb female. That is just led by my emotions. Treated like a child to keep me in my place

This is why I think concerned minister and others that come on here. They try and excuse away our TRUE STORIES. Trying to dismiss them. Saying we have changed since leaving ntcc. OF COURSE WE HAVE CHANGED> My own family knew I was not the same person while stuck in the cult. Once you leave. The fog begins to lift. Your OWN brain starts to work again. You can not excuse away the crap that ntcc puts people through.
JUST because it hasn't happened to you. Doesn't make it right that it HAS happened to others. AND much worse then I experienced! Folks did the same to Jews . Oh it isn't really happening. Just can't believe such horrible stories. Well,believe it. NTCC IS FULL OF LIES AND EVIL behind closed doors!

Jeff said...

Concerned Minister feels that folks have changed since leaving the NTCC. I'm sure he is right to a degree.

Having said that it doesn't change the things we've written here. Just because someone uses the word hell in a sentence doesn't mean they are a liar and it certainly doesn't mean they lied about what they have written on this blog.

Many down right sinners have better character than many NTCC ministers that I've met over the years who claim to be saved.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

I have changed since leaving ntcc. I no longer hurt people using the Gospel; I no longer judge people with little to no evidence; I no longer think I'm holier-than-thou because you go to a different church than ntcc; I no longer think you aren't saved if your not in ntcc; I no longer make friends with people just to get them to come out to church; I no longer shun people if they leave my church to go somewhere else; I no longer try to split up marriages if one of the spouses decides to not attend ntcc; I no longer think God is only at ntcc.

So, yeah, I HAVE changed alot!

C

Anonymous said...

C said...

I have changed since leaving ntcc. I no longer hurt people using the Gospel; I no longer judge people with little to no evidence; I no longer think I'm holier-than-thou because you go to a different church than ntcc; I no longer think you aren't saved if your not in ntcc; I no longer make friends with people just to get them to come out to church; I no longer shun people if they leave my church to go somewhere else; I no longer try to split up marriages if one of the spouses decides to not attend ntcc; I no longer think God is only at ntcc.

It may surprise you to know that I don't do any of these things either, and I am still in NTCC. I have read most of the posts above. I wanted to take a break to give you all a chance to make your remarks. What I am seeing is a trend: many attacks have been leveled against me and NTCC by many of you in response to my post which was meant to gather more information in order to understand more about someone who has left NTCC. I have not attacked anyone, only sought to understand more about you. I have learned much by reading your posts and I will continue to try to understand where you are comming from, though you may attack me for it. I may not respond to your attacks... forgive me.

-concerned minister NTCC

Jeff said...

Thanks Concerned Minister.

I hope that you do understand that the stories that we write are true. You may very well not do what many of us speak of but you can best believe that many other NTCC ministers do. I would like to talk you sometime if you would ever be interested in giving me a call.

404-405-7842
Jeff

Anonymous said...

Concerned Minister,
You come on here in defense of ntcc. Where they have no defense for the horrible things they have done to people's live's. Many of us know what we lived through. Hoops that we jumped through. Which now mk says we were just taking it to the extreme. And we should have thought it through on OUR OWN! As if we could use our own brain. Being a free moral agent was not allowed then. Because ntcc has lost SOO many minister's and there families. There "bible college" classes are shrinking. mk see's fit to make changes. Make ntcc more hyper,cooler,more LIKE THE WORLD! Kids in the "world" wear tight football pants like his son has. People in the world attend Bluegrass festivals like him and his wife have. Let the members now have a life of there own. Without every single free minute taken up with so called work for the Lord! it is all a SCAM! For us that lived through rw communistic reign. Know that we did not imagin it. We are not making up stories,or just posting bits and pieces. mk can try and be a good politcian that he is. And try and sweep the ugliness of ntcc under the rug.

BUT THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. To many of us know the truth. And we will shout it for everyone to know what we lived through. DO NOT TAKE ONE STEP INSIDE A NTCC CHURCH. you sir,may be a exception. But your still funding the evil empire. So your guilty as well. No one in ntcc is excluded from the blood on rw's hands!

So if you do get attacked. Your defending a very evil Org. It is not a church. A wolf in sheeps clothing is what ntcc is.

CM

LTravis said...

Concerned Minister,
I received a phone call a few years back from a current ntcc minister and he told me that RW said that ntcc can no longer legislate righteousness. I have a couple of questions for you.
#1 Were you told the same thing?
#2 What do you think that statement means?
#3 Why the change?

Anonymous said...

L Travis,

I was not told directly these words: "NTCC can no longer legislate righteousness."
Here is what I understand about this issue: At first, NTCC, as an orgainzation tried to legislate righteousness. There were policies set in place that tried to keep people out of the way of sin. The problem was that these things were never, in the beginning, identified as policy. It was just set forth as though it was Biblical teaching. The result was that preachers preached against things as though they were sin in order to justify the policy that was set in place as a buffer against sin because they didn't understand that it was a policy and not a commandment that could be justified Biblicly. Preachers came up with all kinds of creative ways to call the policies Biblical teaching. In the end, there were many who were confused and became bitter because of this misunderstanding. Now, there are many of you who, not understanding this, call the current happenings a compromise, when in fact, it is only a realization that legislating righteousness did not work and a move toward allowing people to be directed by the Holy Ghost and their pastor, (hopefully in wisdom which seems not to be happening in some cases, unfortunately)to live a holy life.

Hopefully that answers your questions.

-concerned minister NTCC

Anonymous said...

Oh concerned minister,
You believe that bunch of crap. So full of double talk. Mk being the good politican that he is. Is trying to sweep it all under the rug.
RW BASHED COMPUTERS for years. mocked us that used it to e--mail our families. Said stuff like,yeah right your using it for e-mails. Your on there looking at porn or gambling. That is all a computer is good for,was his words!
TV was the DEVILVISION! Olson would tell us we were going to Sears just to watch the game on there TV's. Olson again,don't go and play pool on your families pool table. That would lead us down a life of sin! I can go back to my practical theology notes's. And will find where Olson was legislating Righteousness. Under the disguise of controlling our live's.

This statement all came about. Because MK put up a web site. And was supposed to put up there so called policies. Well,he couldn't put up the one's that were considered SINS for MANY years up there. So the web site has not been touched in YEARS! Once they put up there lie's. They would lose even more tithe payers. Can't lose there income!
RW would bash us that chose to stay at hotels at conference's. Saying we did so,just so we could watch TV. I stayed off the campground for privacy and peace and quiet and a bathroom with toliet paper!
MK can use his physcology mindless chatter. We know the TRUTH.
Those so called Policies were given to RW BY GOD! And God does not change his mind,right! So that is where we get the compromise from. RW NEVER SINS. God Gives him the commands for the ORG,right.

believe there lie's concerned minister. We can see through there lie's. But your still stuck in the fog. Where it has lifted for me.

CM

LTravis said...

Concerned minister NTCC said...
Hopefully that answers your questions.
***********************
Thank you for answering.
One more thing I'm curious how long have you been in the ntcc?
LTravis

Vic Johanson said...

"It was just set forth as though it was Biblical teaching."

Hey, I was there, pal. It was unequivocally set forth AS biblical teaching. Do you think we're so stupid we don't know what people are saying to us? When they fulminated against the things that they now claim are only "policies," they used scripture to back them up and taught them as issues of salvation. Now you come along years later and swallow all their revisionist history without hesitation.

Wake up, dude. Every time these chameleons reinvent themselves, they have to run off those who know different. They made short work of the original crew, the ones who sacrificed and worked to get them established. Once they had some capital and a workforce, they had to get rid of the original revolutionaries, ala Marx and Lenin (with the exception of certain "useful idiots" who are so brainwashed that their loyalty can't be shaken by outrageous actions). Now Mike wants his megachurch (without all that nasty pioneering work), and these pesky teacings are definitely a hindrance. So, in accordance with the best Orwellian tradition, what were starkly defined as sins are now transformed into mere policies.

It's a perfect case study in human manipulation. RW is an artist as a con man, and he knows that there is still a sucker born every minute. Your loyalties are seriously misplaced.

Anonymous said...

I have been a part of NTCC for over 15 years and have seen many of these things take place first hand. I had already figured out the fact that these policies were, in fact, policies before they were announced as such. Some people such as CM above, were damaged in the process, sadly.

-concerned minister NTCC

Anonymous said...

Vic said...

"RW is an artist as a con man"

How do you explain the reality of God and the moving of the Holy Spirit in the services when Pastor preaches? It is not just a cleverly disguised money racket as you purpose. God would not move on that. There are people getting saved, filled with the Holy Ghost, and being healed. There has to be a better argument than what you have put forward to this point.

-concerned minister NTCC

Anonymous said...

Concerned,
You ask the question how there can be people getting saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and being healed if RW is a con-man?

Have you ever watched a Benny Hinn 'performance'? most people are well aware that Benny Hinn is a con-man and a thief as well. The Gospel is the Gospel and God is God he will transcend the evil of the charlatan in the same way that he used Balaam (the false prophet) to speak his word.
He loves the people and desires the best for them, that is his nature and will not withhold his gifts because a false teacher is taking advantage of the sheep.

In the end RW and Kekel will be exposed for who they are and the will reap there "reward" , the organization will just fade into oblivion because it is built on sand and will become a 'byword'

Do you understand what i am saying? does it make anysense to you?

sincerely,
t

Diana said...

Hi Concerned,

When I first started to attend NTCC these rules that you stated were mere policies were not what they were. I was involved with NTCC back in 1976. I stayed in till about 2000 or 2001 when I had enough of the double talk.

I have been in many services where RW preached against wearing clear finger nail polish on your fingers, because that was a sin...How can clear finger nail polish be a sin? Interestingly enough the last conference I ever attended he preached it was ok to wear false fingernails. I thought hmmm...what has happened to the preaching of clear nail polish vs the fake fingernails.

You say that in the 15 years that you have been in you knew it was only policies? I can understand how you would get that sort of understanding, but you should not assume that everyone has been under the same preaching and teaching. I know for a fact that lots of changes have been happening for some time now...I would even venture to say it has been in the amount of time you have been in. So I can see where you are coming from as well.

Diana

Anonymous said...

concerned minister,
sat in UPC serice's. Almost got the Holy Ghost when I was a teenager in one of those service's. So does that make there false teachings on the trinity Ok. Because God was moving in a service. They are still leading people to hell with false teachings.
Same with rw. His so called policies(were sins) standards are not biblically based. many of us lived under these policies as if they were SINS. If we disobeyed these policies. We had God to deal with. And we were on our way to Hell. Now there no big deal. Let God guide your concious. Oh God can show you right from wrong!Don't need rw telling you his opinions as Bible based sins(baseball game's.rollerskating rinks,bowling alley's,playing cards)

You sir,can fall for there lie's. Hook line and sinker. I have seen them flip flip sooo many time's. Watch in a few years. Numbers will be back up. Mike K. will feel comfoy and secure. FLIP FLOP back,they are now sins.

CM

Anonymous said...

Moving in a service is not people jumping up and down,mosh pit down front,women shaking there booties(seen it)swinging around with loose fitting undergarments. Put on a good show.
Why is it always men dancing with men and women dancing with women. Ntcc is so big on appearance. stranger walks in and shake's his head. Homosexuals?
You see one really hyper sister start jumping. Well,we better all start jumping. Or we are just not feeling the spirit. One lady raises her arms. We all follow suit. Women or men start speaking in 'tongue's. Pretty soon a bunch of folks are babbling,yelling. Sorry,been in what I consider a real Church since leaving ntcc. What you got is chaos,confusion!!!

CM

Anonymous said...

Concerned minister,
I have been damaged. Doc says PTS. Working on the mess that ntcc has done to me. False teachings I am ridding my brain of. I would rather start over fresh. Then try and weed out some good that ntcc taught,with all the bad I got from them. I knew very little Bible teaching before ntcc. Which that used to be a badge of honor. I was not relgious. I actually was a sponge. I soaked up there junk,took it as the truth. Never questioned much. God kept trying to get my attention. But I ignored his voice trying to get my attention.
Walk out of a service where rw had flip flopped on a issue. Or where he was bashing women!! HE DID THAT ALOT! wonder what I got myself into. But like so many women I stayed in fear my husband would leave me. Found out my husband did the same for me.
Most of these so called changes that are going on. Happened have the HOP split! As i was leaving ntcc,changes were happening. Like ntcc getting a WEB SITE!! Alot of folks left after that.
rw would bash computers so much. I remember leaving so many service's. Thinking my husband was going to come out "convicted" to get rid of our computer. My main connection to my family at the time.
I am not any more damaged then others that have escaped the cult.
That I was stuck in for UpTEEN years!

CM

Vic Johanson said...

"How do you explain the reality of God and the moving of the Holy Spirit in the services when Pastor preaches? It is not just a cleverly disguised money racket as you purpose. God would not move on that. There are people getting saved, filled with the Holy Ghost, and being healed. There has to be a better argument than what you have put forward to this point."

You sound exactly like any deluded follower. These things happen in spite of his character; when ANYONE preaches the gospel, it has power. There are thousands of testimones of healings and salvation from all manner of "preachers." A.A. Allen, who died an alcoholic during the peak of his ministry, preached to crowds of thousands, and many people claimed the same phenomena you cite as evidence of his anointing. Do you suppose they all just made it up?

Have you forgotten that even king Saul prophesied during one of his campaigns to kill David? Get your eyes off of a man and give God some glory instead of telling him under what circumstances he is permitted to move.

Chief said...

Concerned Minister said...

"How do you explain the reality of God and the moving of the Holy Spirit in the services when Pastor preaches? It is not just a cleverly disguised money racket as you purpose. God would not move on that. There are people getting saved, filled with the Holy Ghost, and being healed. There has to be a better argument than what you have put forward to this point."

Jeff asked...

Explain how you know that God was moving? How do you know it was God? How do you know they were filled with the Holy Ghost? Who was healed? I'm not talking about a headache.

Jesus said...

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders"

Jeff said...

I have never seen one great sign or wonder the entire time I was with the NTCC. NTCC folks aren't even good fakes. What moving of God are you talking about? What I did see is a bunch of abusive hypocrites. One right after the other.

How many times do I have to name these guys? I can prove every last one. I have a very good recollection Concerned Minister. For the first time I really see just how blinded they have you.

Jeff

Chief said...

Vic wrote...

"There are thousands of testimones of healings and salvation from all manner of "preachers." A.A. Allen, who died an alcoholic during the peak of his ministry, preached to crowds of thousands, and many people claimed the same phenomena you cite as evidence of his anointing."

Jeff said...

Vic, the problem is I don't even recall evidence of healing's or miracles or wonders taking place in the NTCC. I never saw anyone with a noticeable, evident, visible physical disability ever go to the front of an NTCC "healing service" and get healed. It was always someone with a headache or some kind of persistent pain of some sort.

During these services there would regularly be NTCC people with visible disabilities like Sis Solomon or Sis Olson and these people did not come to the front and get healed. I watched Olson call people up to get healed and is own wife who had a messed up wrist didn't even come up to get healed. It was the same story every time.

Concerned Minister: You are being overly charismatic. You use the terms such as: "God would not move on that"

Jeff asked and answered?

Did the building shake when God moved? No! So therefor your statement was non-tangible and non-verifiable. What does it mean for "God to move"? People getting all emotional? Show me where God moved? Did you see him move? Did you hear God move or did you hear people get all exited? People get all exited during practically every church I have ever been in and every football game for that matter. Does that mean God moved at the football game?

Concerned Minister said...

"Reality of God and the moving of the Holy Spirit"

Jeff asked?

What reality? Tell me what was tangible and verifiable about that "reality"? Abuse and double standards was and is the reality and that was and is tangible and verifiable.

Concerned Minister wrote...

"How do you explain the reality of God and the moving of the Holy Spirit in the services when Pastor preaches?" "There are people getting saved, filled with the Holy Ghost, and being healed."

Jeff asked?

Who was healed? Where is the proof? Being saved doesn't mean that you run around in a dress and wingtips while abusing people. How can you prove these people were filled with the Holy Ghost? Praying in tongues?

1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Jeffs answer...

NO! All don't do these things. How come everyone in the NTCC supposedly speaks in tongues but no one works miracles or has the GIFT of healing? Tell me of the NTCC minister who has the "gift of healing" and send that person down to Sis Solomon so that she can get healed. It hasn't happened. You are overly charismatic Concerned Minister because nothing that you wrote is tangible or verifiable and I have yet to meet a verifiable NTCC minister with the gift of healing so don't you think it's suspect that "everyone" speaks in tongues?

Jeff

Anonymous said...

someone doesn't have to be a christian to preach the bible. An atheist could read the Bible and those who are christians would feel God move.

The power is in the Word, not in a man.

Jeff said...

Concerned Minister: The reason that I asked all those questions is because you are always asking for proof of everything that we say. It's apparent that our word is not nearly good enough and that is fine.

So if you are going to take that stance I understand but I guarantee that you can't show any tangible proof of "God moving" anywhere in the NTCC. You can't prove that healings exist in the NTCC. You can't prove that any of these spiritual things exist in the NTCC because non of those things are tangible or verifiable or quantifiable. You simply can't prove them because there is no tangible evidence.

I can prove however that abuse has taken place in the NTCC and Kekel admitted it to me during our conversation over the telephone. If you have the heart that you claim to have, you will understand what we have been talking about on this blog. All you have to do is listen to RWD and Kekel preach. I mean really listen while truly processing what they are actually saying. If you genuinely do that, you will understand what we all have been saying. Listen to Kekel and RWD; that's all you have to do.

Jeff

Jeff said...

Anonymous said...

An atheist could read the Bible and those who are Christians would feel God move.

Jeff said...

I'm just trying to make a point here. Concerned Minister always wants proof. What does it feel like to feel God move? That is an open question to everyone. Describe the feeling and how do you know it's God? Please provide answers with tangible evidence.

Jeff

Jeff said...

Here are two definitions for the word "tangible".

1. capable of being touched; discernible by the touch; material or substantial.
2. real or actual, rather than imaginary or visionary: the tangible benefits of sunshine.

Anonymous said...

Cocnerned,
God continues to move in NTCC due to the part of the members faithfulness and prayers. Not the leadership...

NS

pdq said...

Jeff said..."Concerned Minister: The reason that I asked all those questions is because you are always asking for proof of everything that we say. It's apparent that our word is not nearly good enough and that is fine."

pdq says...We don't need to provide proof to those that are 'in' (this includes Concerned Minister). They have already observed an experienced what we have.

Exers share what we have all heard in Conferences, Fellowship Meetings, Bible College, the local church we were 'reached' at, etc. Any NTCCer can validate what we attest to. They just choose to remain silent, or label the truth as a lie, or profess ignorance, etc. That's their problem, they will have to answer for this.

The reason I want to get the word out is to prevent new comers from getting snared by NTCC. After all, they will eventual leave anyway, so why not cut out the middle man (NTCC).

Vic Johanson said...

Jeff, I didn't mean to imply that I believe signs and wonders are going on in the org, because like you, I never saw evidence of a real, verifiable healing in sixteen years. There were plenty of testimonies, and one sister "believed God" for her diabetes--until she wound up in insulin shock at a local hospital. What I was trying to say was that even if there have been legitimate miracles there (and none of us can deny that possibility), that doesn't prove God's imprimatur is on their "apostle." God is not constrained in the least by the bad character of RW.

They do seem adept at reverse miracles, though. Whereas Jesus opened unseeing eyes, the NTCC leadership inflicts blindness toward their evil practices.

Anonymous said...

Jeff,
I dont know if it is possible to "prove" God moving.

Jesus said in John 3:8 that the wind blows where it wants. We can hear the sound of it but cannot tell where it comes and where it goes. So is everyone that is born of the Spirit.

I can by testimony know when it is God, but how to prove it I dont know.

======
dth

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

An atheist could read the Bible and those who are Christians would feel God move.

Feel God Move???

We do not serve God by feelings. "Nobody knows the troubles I've seen..."

We serve God through faith in His Word that He would and will do what He said He would or will do!!

Bro Johnson

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

An atheist could read the Bible and those who are Christians would feel God move.

Feel God Move???

We do not serve God by feelings. "Nobody knows the troubles I've seen..."

We serve God through faith in His Word that He would and will do what He said He would or will do!!

Bro Johnson

Anonymous said...

dth continued

so.... we can't see the wind blowing.... how can we prove the wind is there ?

but we do see the effects of the wind that is blowing.....

thanks for the blog upkeep by the way.

Jeff said...

I thought about my question and discussed it with my wife. In the Bible here is how God moved.

Fire, dew on the fleece or no dew, blind eyes open, lame walked, dead raised, water to wine, seven loaves, leprosy gone!!!

That is God moving. Not feelings. I get feelings when I listen to music. I get feelings when I see a loved one.

Any more answers?

Vic I understood totally. You just helped my point buddy.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

What the definition of "Seeing God Move" anyways? Sometimes you hear these NTCC catch-pharases so much it is difficult to remember what the true meaning is. For instance, "we are winning" Winning what...against what...is this spiritually ...or financially etc.


NS

Anonymous said...

AMEN! bro Johnson!

t

Anonymous said...

OK everyone, I agree my challenge regarding God moving and people being saved, filled with the Holy Ghost, and healings was a bit simplistic. I would like to say that Pastor Davis would have to be an excellent con man because all I see in him is sincerity and a great love and zeal for Christ. I know this is going to envoke a lot of sighs and the throwing up of hands by many of you reading, but you have already succombed to the notion that he is a con man and no other explanation makes sense to you anymore.

Vic mentioned A. A. Allen. I would not be so hasty to believe the reports of the media: http://www.eaec.org/TruthAboutAAAllen.htm

-concerned minister NTCC

Anonymous said...

Concerned minister:
All I want to ask you is this and be sincere about it:
If you leave ntcc are you leaving your calling?
There are many people that love pastor davis and can tell you right now there is this man that has said in his preaching that if pastor davis tells him to stand on his head, this preacher would do it without hesitation.
I don't think this kind of adoration to a man is healthy because he is just a man, has he done big things like building the org of ntcc, of course he has.
He has the leadership to surround himself with men that know alot and he has utilize them to his advantage and in that he has leadership abilities but how can you follow a man that has allowed the people around him to change what he thinks is the right and holy way? well unless you are a part of this change, because I read that you think all these things that at one time were considered sin are now called "policies"

Anonymous said...

If you leave ntcc are you leaving your calling?

Sincerely, every individual has to make that decision for themselves. It is between you and God what you do and God will judge all of us one day. Make sure what you do is what God wants you to do.

-concerned minister NTCC

Anonymous said...

Skirting the issue won't help you with the brownie points, but thanks anyways, I already knew what your answer would be and you can hide it in the multitudes of words but it is still loud and clear: YES!

Vic Johanson said...

"Vic mentioned A. A. Allen. I would not be so hasty to believe the reports of the media: http://www.eaec.org/TruthAboutAAAllen.htm"

This guy sounds like A.A. Allen's personal Joe Olson. Why are you so hasty to believe him? Do you think he has any credibility? He has a vested interest in preserving Allen's reputation, since he was the one who supposedly had an angelic visitation designating Allen to spearhead this "move of God."

Pop Gaylord spoke of a great evangelist he hosted on occasion; he said that the man's results were impressive, but they learned early on not to pay him until the end of the revival, because he would go out and get drunk as soon as he got some money.

If Allen doesn't work for you, then take your pick:

Benny Hinn
Jimmy Swaggart
Jim Bakker
Amee Semple McPherson
Any One of Numerous Others

Anonymous said...

concerned,
Do you really think it is integrity that caused Davis to 'steal' land from the Corporation and to give it to Kekel?

i personally think this reveals a total lack of integrity

how bout the fact that when some suck up preacher compares him to one of the 24 elders etc.. Davis does not admonish the peole to stop looking to a man or worshiping him, why is that?

how bout, using people to do his household chores, is that integrity? i think that would be a selfish, lazy, pig, personally

i could go on all day, but i will spare you.

i think your predicament goes something like this:
Some in the business world follow men who have very low scruples and integrity but who are able to generate large amounts of money for the corporation because they have a pushy personality, maybe you are trapped because you fear that you wont be able to provide for your family without the thief doling out the candy?

i dont know, you seem like a nice guy, but i have seen a lot of nice guys turn into plain old stupid guys because they were not willing to a) see the truth or, b) have the courage to acknowledge the truth

you really sound exactly like my relative, if i didnt know for a fact that he did not have internet access i would think you were him!!

t

Anonymous said...

Gene Pulisia is back in town and has been given the title of associate pastor and will be working in the office.

why is this? did he fail, or was he becoming to productive and they wanted to steal his escrow account?

maybe Gene could give us a little insight..

go ahead Gene...

Anonymous said...

Wasn't he in England? If he was then what happened to the work over there? I thought that is what the org. said that God wanted a work over there. Maybe God told them to pull pellicia out and bring him back to work in the office.

Vic Johanson said...

You can add Marjoe Gortner to the list, too. He wrote that A. A. Allen advised him how to tell when a revival was over:

“When you can turn people on their head and shake them and no money falls out, then you know God’s saying, ‘Move on, son.’”

Anonymous said...

If you leave ntcc are you leaving your calling?

Sincerely, every individual has to make that decision for themselves. It is between you and God what you do and God will judge all of us one day. Make sure what you do is what God wants you to do.
said by concerned minister,

How do you know your calling is true and was inpsired by God. And not pushed down your throat by a ntcc minister? Maybe you weren't. But many GI's who were young,gullable. Had it preached day after day. Bible school is the place to go,you don't want to go back to your sinner family....brainwashing them into thinking they got a calling.

Even if you have a calling. Other ways of reaching folks then being a pastor and get the gospel out to folks. So many avenue's to teach people. Without pounding the Bible over there head.

CM

Anonymous said...

I would like to say that Pastor Davis would have to be an excellent con man because all I see in him is sincerity and a great love and zeal for Christ. I know
Said by concerned minister.

Come on,give us examples of this sincerity and great love and zeal. Is it sincerity when he is putting down women. Don't tell me he doesn't. Any chance he has to keep women in there place he take's it. WOMAN,that is just a ring,WOMAN,your not the preacher,WOMAN all your good for is sex,man can do everything else.Woman don't talk or teach.... Yeah,that is so sincere and shows so much love for Gods Creation. WE ARE CREATED EQUAL! Yes Man is the head in a marriage. WOMAN unmarried don't have a man in charge of them. JUST GOD!

What ZEAL does he have. Sitting on his butt glaring down at everyone . Better smile and jump,look happy or your a cow looking at a new gate. Some folks are just listening intensly and don't need to FAKE SMILE ALL THE TIME!
His Zeal in driving a Expensive moterhome to spy on local Churches,take there money,time.
Nope,don't see much zeal in rw davis.

LOVE? what love. He loves his money making bussiness. It is going really good for him. But leave's his pioneer Churches to live in POVERTY level. $50,000 a year is still not middle class!
yeah felt the love when he accuses you of argueing with yoru husband because you don't have a FAKE SMILE ON! Sorry I have been out. Have a great Pastor now. Acts like a Real person. No fancy airs to him,NO HUGE GATE to keep the Church members out like rw does. I have seen Love. And rw does not show love for anyone but his DD. I don't even think he truly love's his wife. Will put her in her place any chance he gets. If you want to leave woman,here is the bus fair and leave! Such LOVE!!

CM

Anonymous said...

well spoken CM!!

t

Vic Johanson said...

"I would like to say that Pastor Davis would have to be an excellent con man..."

Haven't you been paying attention? We've been saying that all along. A two-bit grifter wouldn't have been able to pull off such an NTCC-scale scam. He's a master manipulator.

Anonymous said...

"I would like to say that Pastor Davis would have to be an excellent con man because all I see in him is sincerity and a great love and zeal for Christ."

To live in wealth while your church members go to food banks, have church members report abuses over and over, and to modify and change rules due to your family members lifestyle does not reflect love of Christ.

ns

Anonymous said...

ns,
since this is a blog to share true stories. We were one of those pioneer church families that did use the food bank. Only reason we did not apply for Food Stamps is pride. rw fills our heads with junk like,God will bless you. Don't take a government hand out,God will bless you.
As it went on and the conditions got worse. We had our vechile repocessed. And Just days from being Homeless. My worst fears had come true! Something I always worried about while in ntcc. Since we lived paycheck to paycheck. Was to become homeless. The Job hubby worked at Got really bad. God used financial ruin to get us out of the cult! I am thankful now that it got us out of ntcc. But was really rough,scary time to go through. Had our power turned off a few time's.
YEAH,that is rw showing love,taking care of his minister's.
We were told that we should have told them. Did they ever call and know what was going on with THERE CHURCH??? NO!! My husband was supposed to grovel,ask for help. Show that he was not a good leader,failed. Possibly go back to WA. So we called mother-in-law for help. Remember the family members that are rot gut sinners.(rw words)

Jeff,
God has blessed us since leaving the cult. We don't live paycheck to paycheck. Still fixing our horrible credit that got destroyed while in ntcc. My kids are happy,we have SOO much stress relief. Folks still in,you don't know how much stress your living with day to day. Until you leave!

CM

Ns said...

CM,
It breaks my heart to hear you were almost homeless!

Ns

Anonymous said...

thanks ns for your caring heart.
Something I just thought of. Mike K. told me and Tanya. Why didn't you tell us. Well,after they did know our situation. Hubby had stepped down as a Pastor. At the time we had decided to stay in the Org. Why didn't they try and help us? Still no calls,see how we are doing,what they could have done to help/ Emotional support is BIG!
Family ended up helping us alot,got out of that town.

For those of you stuck in Washington. You have those nagging thoughts that something is not right here. Ask to go out in a work. Not one close to another work. Get some distance from you and those so called leaders. See what God will do. Your mind will begin to really think again. You will put two and two together. THE FOG WILL LIFT. The confusion that ntcc likes to keep members and ministers in will no longer be there.
NTCC folks do not leave to be like the WORLD!!! Once they get away from your influence,stupid rule's. Can make decision's on there own,realize that God can help them run there live's. They don't need man made rules or so called polices to protect them from a life of sin. They will leave first chance they get.

CM

Jeff said...

CM said...

"We were told that we should have told them." Did they ever call and know what was going on with THERE CHURCH??? NO!! My husband was supposed to grovel,ask for help. Show that he was not a good leader,failed. Possibly go back to WA.

Jeff said...

That is exactly what would have happened CM. I know of an NTCC minister who got into severe financial trouble. The org took his ministers license. You were supposed to call and tell them? Yeah right. You would have been dirt! You can't tell the NTCC leaders anything. You will be dirt and they will spread your business. The more I study their antics the more I realize that they don't even resemble what the Bible calls a Christian.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

This is an aspect of NTCC that is true. NTCC is not an organization in which a brother who is overtaken with a fault or a Christian experiencing emotional / financial set backs can find a lot of support. That is a shame.

NTCC Minister B.S., M.A

Jeff said...

NTCC Minister B.S., M.A said...

This is an aspect of NTCC that is true.

Jeff said...

Amen.

Jeff

double-D said...

Remember- "any old wind can stir up a bunch of dead leaves".

Anonymous said...

"Wasn't he in England? If he was then what happened to the work over there? I thought that is what the org. said that God wanted a work over there. Maybe God told them to pull pellicia out and bring him back to work in the office."

Now THIS is too funny: NTCC sends a missionary to England to preach the gospel...Shouldn't it be the other way around?

For what it is worth, South Korea is sending Ministers over to America all the time to Preach the Truth in Holy Spirit Power!!

South Korea thinks we need to be Preached the Word of God too!! Another sign of the end of times, when a Country founded by God is being preached to by another Country.

Bro Johnson

Anonymous said...

Jeff,

I just had a "GOTCHA!!" Moment!

Who decides when a NTCC Church has revival? NTCC or the local minister?

The reason why I asked this, is because NTCC minsters know when the traveling NTCC wreck comes barreling through town.

What is to keep or hold a NTCC preacher back from having a "Revival" when the only reason to have one is to fatten his wallet??

"I want to buy a new car" - LETS HAVE REVIVAL!!!!

Bro Johnson

Anonymous said...

NTCC Minister B.S., M.A said...

This is an aspect of NTCC that is true. NTCC is not an organization in which a brother who is overtaken with a fault or a Christian experiencing emotional / financial set backs can find a lot of support. That is a shame.

Really? why don't you ask the Davis family who lost their appartment in a fire and those who suffered loss in Hurricane Katrina if there wasn't much support?

Financial setbacks? Maybe you should explain that one a little bit more. What about the fact that Rev. Crain was able to keep his escrow money to use in Memphis?

What do you mean by emotional setbacks?

A brother overtaken in a fault? How many preachers lost their licenses due to outright sin and then later on got their license back having proven their desire to live for God? I can name a few, think about it. NTCC Minister B.S., M.A, you are not convincing me, though you may be allowing these people to convince you. That my friend, is a shame.

-concerned minister NTCC

Anon! said...

Concerned Min,

You named a handful of examples of people...out of how many HUNDREDS that stood in line for food at the food bank. I had no shame standing in line at the food bank...the real shame was Sir, was when the bank workers would look at my families holiness garb and ask why my church did not help me.

Anon!

Chief said...

Concerned Minister:

For every minister that the NTCC has given any support there are hundreds if not thousands who have been totally used, abused, and neglected. The list is extensive. Brother and Sisters that were ran into the dirt just to be cast aside by the NTCCs leadership as dung.

You've forgotten RWD's statement in conference. "You are here at my pleasure", "I started this whole thing", "I was here when you got here and I will be here when you leave", "If you don't like it here, there is the door"!!!

RWD is a heartless crook and you are deceived Concerned Minister. NTCC Minister was right on this one. Crain should have gotten the escrow money. Unfortunately others churches didn't get the excrow back. I know of three churches where the escrow money did the old vanishing act when their pastors left. I'm sure there are more than that.

Probably 90% of NTCC ministers experienced serious financial set backs and all the NTCC leadership did was turn a blind eye. The NTCC leadership doesn't consider it their problem when their ministers have a financial break down. I've seen it happen too many times Concerned Minister so you can't tell me otherwise. The NTCCs rules are exactly what puts those ministers in such financial trouble.

I heard RWD up in conference brag about a brother who quit his job so that he could attend conference and I am sure that you have read where I have written that before! Have you forgot that Concerned Minister? That is so stupid to quit a job for conference. Now your families needs are not being met and you have become worse than an infidel because you are not providing for those of your own house.

RWD should have been telling that brother that he was stupid for quitting his job just so he could attend yet another conference. And in the process other NTCC pastors aren't even attending conferences. It's especially unnecessary to quit a job when every conference RWD makes statements such as, "if you don't like it here there is the door", or he tells insensitive jokes about fat women which have become fat because all he wants them to do is sit around the house and cook.

Concerned Minister: You are seriously deceived to say the least. Just keep ignoring everything that we write. It will haunt you one day without doubt.

Jeff

Vic Johanson said...

"I had no shame standing in line at the food bank...the real shame was Sir, was when the bank workers would look at my families holiness garb and ask why my church did not help me."

When we went to Philadelphia to pioneer, the car broke down in the middle of nowhere (Broadus, Montana). We notified the HQ, and got the typical "be ye warmed and filled" response. Through some generous "sinner" folks, we were able to get our vehicle hauled on a flatbed truck a hundred miles to the nearest place equipped to fix it. We had some problem finding lodging there, because it was tourist season. When people learned our situation, the first thing they would ask us was why our "church" wouldn't step up to help. There just wasn't a whole lot we could say about it; we were basically on our own. That's just the way it was, and even "sinners" were incredulous that we weren't feeling any love from Graham (although we ourselves at that point didn't dare harbor any critical thoughts). We finally made it to Philly, where we lived in a guy's livingroom until I could get work and find a place to live. Both times we went to pioneer, we never received a dime of help from the org, and we sent them money every month. I regard it as a miracle that we never succumbed to debt, but that was largely because we subjected ourselves to extreme hardship in order to pay the bills.

Life is much better now.

pdq said...

Hello all,

I was going to post a 7,752 character (3 separate posts) post here (of late I have been trying to waiting until activity on a topic comes to a standstill to post some of my longer stuff) but this is now back on top.

It's about asking for help, escrow, ministers falsifying inventories, ministers misrepresenting things, etc. Its nothing that hasn't been posted already (though not these specific instances) and can definitely wait...or even wait indefinitely.

Should I wait again, or post? What say ye. Especially Jeff and Casey.

pdq

Anonymous said...

If I was a betting person. I would bet that Concerned minister thinks that any emotional or financial trouble that happens to folks out in a work. It is all there OWN fault.
Vic,like you. We also lived down to the very bare necessties. Ntcc likes there minister's broke. So all they can do is soul-win. They have no money to do much else.
So we are living on very little. paying TWO RENTS,utlities for our place. Raising our children(2). Those money waster's that they are! Job isn't that great. hubby never got to use GI bill to better his education. Working construction. That work is very up and down!
We did get in that food bank line. Thankfully never was treated like we were poor. kept as much dignity as we could in the situation. I made it fun for our kids,to see what we got. So they did not feel bad about getting food.
No way could we tell rw or any of them that we got food for free. Or we were not relying on God to bless us. Showing lack of faith. I was using commonsense. My kids needed food,did what I could. I was the one that went to the foodbank and got the food.

So thankful that I can now afford groceries.
and Concerned minister. We did not bring the financial trouble on ourself. We did everything that rw would want done. Where did it get us,almost homeless!
Like I said before,show that DH is not a good leader and go groveling to WA. Seen what happens to others when they went back to WA. Even students look down on them.
CM

LTravis said...

concerned minister NTCC said...

Preachers came up with all kinds of creative ways to call the policies Biblical teaching. In the end, there were many who were confused and became bitter because of this misunderstanding. Now, there are many of you who, not understanding this, call the current happenings a compromise, when in fact, it is only a realization that legislating righteousness did not work and a move toward allowing people to be directed by the Holy Ghost and their pastor, (hopefully in wisdom which seems not to be happening in some cases, unfortunately)to live a holy life.

Hopefully that answers your questions.

-concerned minister NTCC

LTravis said...
Concerned minister,
I can't believe your statement, it's amazing. I think you should go back and read what you wrote. I understood what was considered sin and there was no such a thing as "policies" that is the new buzz word. What a shame indeed. I almost forgot thanks for "allowing people to be directed by the Holy Ghost"

Nellashara said...

Concerned Minister said:

" ...call the current happenings a compromise, when in fact, it is only a realization that legislating righteousness did not work and a move toward allowing people to be directed by the Holy Ghost."

If this is in fact true, we have just witnessed the greatest con-job of all time.

Nellashara

Jeff said...

We could use your post pdq. The fact is everything you have to say is of significant value. I look forward to hearing from you.

Jeff

Vic Johanson said...

PDQ, let 'er rip. I just got to thinking how that I've been posting the truth about the org for several years now, and haven't even scratched the surface.

IdahoAngie said...

Someone mentioned food banks.. and sorry I'm not gonna scroll up or down looking to find out who it was. But I always wondered that while in NTCC why you only heard of certain pastors getting help with food from NTCC. I grew up in normal churches (not NTCC) and all of them had food banks to reach out to the church members and the local community and they also bent over backwards to help a member in need when there was crisis. The church I go to now does not have a food bank yet but we do work with a local foodbank collecting items etc. And members receive help with food or financial assistance if they need it with no complaints from anyone. And no one gets told they must not be right with God if their situation is bad. Heck we even invite homeless people to our church (something I was told not to do when I was in NTCC and that was something that really bothered me when I was told no.

How can you say you have a heart for God if your only doing 2% of the work that God requires? Acting like a donkey and being picky about who can and can not come to church and treating people like crap because they need assistance is not at all in the slightest bit being like Christ.

As for the moving of God... Everyone experiences God differently. So I could describe my experiences and they wouldn't be the same as yours. I have been healed of a few things (not while I was in NTCC). But people always wanna argue that it wasn't God. Well more power to you. Because it had to be God. Something that requires surgery to fix and then all the sudden 3 days later is like new it can't be anything but God. Your body can't repair that fast from that kind of issue.. and lets just say it was a female issue. And I had more then 1 opinion and all the doctors say it had to be God because a body can not heal itself that fast.

but there will always be people who think there is no way this or that could be real because they either have never experienced it or they haven't experienced it the same as someone else...To say it doesn't happen is wrong. Because it does. No two Christians have the exact same walk with God. Just like no 2 people are exactly identical even with twins each twin has their own unique fingerprint even if they look the same.

Walk your walk. And I'll walk mine. And hopefully we won't judge each other based on "I don't believe in that" or "I don't see it" or "I won't believe it until I see/experience it". Because thats where we all fall into trouble.

My salvation experience is completely different then anyone elses. It is unique to me. Same as my walk with God. Let God move in everyone how he see's fit. That is why NTCC is dying. Davis has stopped the move of God. He controls everything. And I was there when a lot of stuff was stopped because Davis didn't like it. And quenching the moving of God is not going to cause things to end well. God will have his way.. one way or another. The truth will come out. I just pray that people will see Davis' true colors before he dies.. So their eyes will be opened. And I believe it will happen. And when it does. I wish I could be there to be a shoulder to lean on when all those people realize they've been douped. Because when Davis' true character is revealed to all....he isn't going to go down without a fight. He is going to be one angry little man.

Anonymous said...

My dad was offered a job with a significant pay raise from what he was making. At the time he was making very little, and my mother had to be so extremely tight with money when it came time for grocery shopping. I don't remember her ever buying anything if it wasn't on sale or she didn't have a coupon. We made it through the month, but just barely.
My dad turned down the job because they wouldn't let him take time off for conferance so soon after taking the job. We would not have been rolling in the dough so to speak, but we could have at least bought milk or cheese every once in a while, and built up a bit of a savings account. But because he would have had to miss conferance, he kept our family in poverty most of the time we lived in that particular state. I was fairly young at the time, but it made quite the impression on me.

JM

Jeff said...

JM that is truly a sad story. I really feel bad because of what you had to go through.

I hope everything is better now JM. If it's not call me. 404-405-7842. What do you think of that folks? Concerned Minister? Sounds like a great way to grow up don't you think? Total and utter poverty. Go to conference and keep you family hungry? Sounds like a great plan. The NTCC is one sick organization and JM's story proves it.

Jeff

Mark G. said...

Hello Everyone,


I like the caption "Be careful when you say,"God told me".

That phrase used to really scare me, and especially when R'Dub would say it because I honestly thought that God would speak to him audibly and that the anointing that he had was unique to just him. Wow, Was I ever deceived. I can see now that he doesn't have anything from God that is unique.

Somebody once told me that "The best of Men are Men at very best". That statement pretty much sums up how I feel about him. That's not to say that I wouldn't give him the basic respect that I would to any other person. I wouldn't treat him any better than I would a homeless person. I'm not trying to say that I want to mean to these people but I guess my point is that every human deserves what I consider "Basic Respect". But, That's all he would get.

If he were to EVER tell me "God told me"....I might just laugh in his face. I mean..The audacity of him saying that God PERSONALLY told him something.

I've read books from John Owen, Matthew Henry,Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther,Charles Spurgeon,Edward Payson,and a host of others and I've come to this conclusion...

Only in Pentecostalism.

Anonymous said...

I though we were filled with the Holy Ghost to discern for ourselves without the help of a "high priest"
If I'm not mistaken there's alot of people out "working for God" not because they heard the voice of God telling them to go there, but because the org. put them there.
These people remind me of the pieces of a chess game, "the player" will move the piece to wherever it is more advantageous and bring "him" a big win, but we all know that you'll have to loose a few pieces to get there.
The irony of it all is that the pieces in this chess game are flesh and bone, souls of men and women.

Chief said...

Thats right. RWD, Olson, and Kekel have been using folks as pawns for quite some time. Pawns are expendable. When necessary you simply sacrifice the pawns in an attempt to win the game. The NTCC game is to accumulate as much property and money as possible. They will keep a soul around as long as that person is paying tithes. I know of a women who attends NTCC conferences who is not even in the NTCC. Her husband is but she is not. She attends a completely different church. Why does the NTCC leadership allow this? Because the husband is a faithful tithe payer. When the lady arrives at conference she takes off here jewelry and pants and everything else that the NTCC doesn't allow a woman to wear, and she does the big superwoman change.

I will guarantee that if her husband hadn't been paying tithe for years they wouldn't allow her to attend conference. The NTCC leadership is willing to make a whole lot of exceptions when money is involved. That is how Denis was able to go so far.

That is also why the NTCC leadership was going to allow my me and my wife to attend their school of rules when we were barely even attending 1 or 2 church services a week. There is no other logical explanation. We were some hefty tithes payers I would say. Certainly in comparison to everyone else that we went to church with. As long as we continued to kick out the tithe money the NTCC leadership gave us much latitude.

For those of you who haven't figured it out, it is all about the money with the NTCC. Stop giving your money and watch what happens. You will suddenly become dirt. It's a fact. What that means is that your money is the very most important thing that you have to offer God. It is according to NTCC standards because nothing will make an NTCC pastor more mad, than if you stop giving your money. I've seen this occurrence in every single NTCC church that I have ever went to.

I've seen these NTCC pastors go flat out nuts over money or more specifically the lack thereof. It happens every time without fail. Even when we would visit the church in Mississippi, Barnes would routinely talk about either money or loyalty.

Right after the split we happened to visit the Jackson MS church and Barnes was preaching about loyalty to the NTCC. One time before that he was preaching about money while justifying where all his money came from. He preached that it wasn't his church members business to worry about where the money went that was given to the church. Typical NTCC prosperity preaching. He would take up an offering at the door of the church to make sure that all the people gave; even the ones who came in late. My wife reminded me of that recently.

It absolutely amazing when you look at all the ways these NTCC preachers find to get money from their people. It is actually an amazingly remarkable scam. I can think of no other scam where people are convinced to simply "GIVE" away their money even if they are essentially broke. I would like to see Kekel give away all his money. While you are giving all your money away, Kekel is becoming more wealthy by the minute.

Hey folks, look here. If you are just into giving your money away, and you want to give it as unto the Lord, just give me a call at 404-405-7842 and I will tell you were to send it. The Lord will bless you for sure. I will even do one better than the NTCC. I will invest it and pay you fifty cents on every dollar that I earn with the money that you send me. When I buy a church building and rent it out to church folks like RWD does, I will give you half the proceeds. We will all have big houses like RWD and Kekel if you would all just send me your money. You can go soul winning through my town everyday if it would make you feel better about sending me your money.

Continued below...

Jeff

Chief said...

Continued from above...

When I buy 39 acres I won't dedicate it to the church so that it winds up in Kekel's portfolio. I will buy the 39 acres, sell it for a good profit and then I will give everyone that sent me money all their money back with profit. It's a win, win situation. I won't be the only one who gets rich like RWD and Kekel. We will all be able to send our kids to a $20,000 are year private academy for high school. I won't just tell you that God will bless you like RWD does; I will show you with true, tangible proceeds. You can still serve God and get rich just like RWD and you won't have to clean Kekels house anymore, you will have enough money to hire a maid to clean your house. Amen to that.

Jeff

Casey said...

Jeff,

That's why you would never make it as a leader of ntcc (not that you want to be)-- you're always thinking of others instead of just thinking about yourself. What's the matter with you bro? ;-)

The Bible said...

There is a reason these people refuse to understand:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The Bible

Casey Hayes said...

Dear Mr. Bible,

Leaving NTCC is NOT the same as "falling away" from God. Unless, you believe the cult line that leaving ntcc IS leaving God. If that is the case, then you are brainwashed into believing an UNbiblical teaching. Many people have left ntcc to serve God in a greater capacity and do more for Him than they ever did in ntcc.

Here's a more apt verse for those of you still in ntcc:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful [and holiness] outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Anonymous said...

...said the man who doesn't even go to church anymore!

Anonymous said...

...God's churches have been polluted with apostates and money-changers

...staying home not always a bad thing

Casey said...

Anon,

That response is SO juvenile. So if I quote the scripture, but don't go to church, does that mean that God's word isn't true anymore? Why don't you use some logic, instead of trying to attack my character.

Casey said...

Infact, let's play a game. I'll ask you some intelligent questions and you try to answer them without throwing an insult at me.

1. Do you believe that leaving ntcc is leaving God?

2. Do you believe that ntcc is the ONLY church that is REALLY right with God?

3. Do you believe it is hypocritical for church leaders to preach against something, but do them themselves secretly?

4. Are you man enough to post your real name?

Anonymous said...

Casey...

1. actually, you're the one that keeps bringing up the silly notion that leaving the NTCC = leaving God. Nothing of the sort was said by anyone but you in this particular exchange.

2. You brought that up too. What's bugging you? Go ahead, let it out.

3. If you call something a sin, you should be able to provide accurate scripture for why you believe it to be so. If you say something is a sin and you do it, you are a hypocrite. "The Bible" above, made a statement about falling away and you insenuated that he was talking about you.

4. I'll answer your question when you ask all of the other anti-ntccers on here the same question.

You have one finger pointed at me and the other three are pointed back at you.

The Bible said...

To all those posting who are in NTCC...

Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, (or blog), shake off the dust of your feet (for a testimony against them). verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city, (or blog). Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

The time has come to depart...


The Bible

The Bible said...

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; when your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

The Bible

Casey said...

Note to all: Mr. Bible refused to answer a single question. I rest my case.

Common Sense said...

To all who are in NTCC:

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

God wants his church pure and w/o blemish. God gave you his Holy Spirit to discern what is righteous and what is compromise. God GAVE you permission to ask questions and test the spirits, not a man.


Common Sense:
"Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining."

CS

Mark G. said...

So, Mr. Bible............

What's your point?

Jeff said...

Casey said...

"That's why you would never make it as a leader of ntcc (not that you want to be)-- you're always thinking of others instead of just thinking about yourself. What's the matter with you bro? ;-)"

Jeff said...

Boy ain't that the truth. NTCC guys create the impression that they are thinking about others with all their soul winning. However the real agenda is the tithe and offering money. A church member can give for years but watch what happens when that church member becomes broke and can no longer give to the church. They get blasted. NTCC folks are notorious for reminding folks that they don't give to charity.

If you become broke while in the NTCC you may receive a little token change but for all intensive purposes you are on your own. NTCC ministers are not about giving, they are only about receiving. It's a fact. It's what RWD teaches and it is written in the NTCC's doctrinal statement.

Jeff

Chief said...

Mr. Bible quoted...

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away"

Then Mr Bible also said...

1. "actually, you're the one that keeps bringing up the silly notion that leaving the NTCC = leaving God. Nothing of the sort was said by anyone but you in this particular exchange."

Jeff said...

Mr Bible: You were the one who brought up leaving God with the verse of scripture that you quoted. Did you forget? You obviously did forget? Reminds me of Kekel forgetting all the rules that RWD used to mandate. What else were you possibly referring to when you quoted "falling away"? You weren't talking about falling off a boat; you were talking about leaving the NTCC which you quite apparently equate to falling away from God.

Well to fall away from God means you would have had to find God in the first place. I am no longer convinced that half you NTCC guys and gals ever found God in the first place. You guys are inconsiderate and you lack common decency. Guys like Vic and Casey have and had consideration for others which is why they had a hard time falling into RWD's system. To be successful in the NTCC you have to be an abusive creep and remain that way. Casey is not that way. To be successful in the NTCC you have to be partial and a serious man pleaser. Casey is not that either. When someone totally lacks common decency, love, basic consideration for others, the way I see it they never found God from the start. If anything Casey was keeping God by leaving the NTCC. You can't loose what you never had. Many, many NTCC folks lack basic consideration for others.

You still never answered the question being that you were the one who quoted a scripture dealing with falling away. Does leaving the NTCC equate to falling away from God? Why did you post the falling away scripture? I suppose God spoke to you and told you to do so?

You've been hanging around RWD for too long. You are trying to come across as being all spiritual, like the rest of us don't know the Bible. What are you trying to accomplish with posting scripture? Are you preaching to us while casting judgment? You need to judge yourself because if you are still with the crooked NTCC you definitely have bad judgment which means that you are not qualified to judge anyone.

Don't tell me the Bible judges us because guess what; it's going to judge you also and judgment will be greater for a hypocrite pharisee than someone who left an abusive church ran by a couple of money hungry cheats. Like I always say. Christ has a much greater disliking for an abusive, greedy, money hungry religious person who has turned the Gospel into gain, than he does for someone who doesn't go to church period. A flat out sinner will fair better in the day of judgment than a religious hypocrite like the ones produced by the NTCC.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

"If you become broke while in the NTCC you may receive a little token change but for all intensive purposes you are on your own."

Acutally Jeff you just caused me to remember that I had an NTCC Preacher come to ME asking to borrow $100.00. I do not believe I got it back.

MLJ

LTravis said...

The Bible said...
To all those posting who are in NTCC...
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
***************
"harmless as doves."
Bible boy,
Practice what you preach.

Anonymous said...

Jeff,go on Mike K. blog. See the COMPROMISE that is going on in Washington. pingpong game's,Basketball court in his Backyard! TRYING TO LOOK LIKE THE WORLD! Could peek over there nieghbors yard and see no difference between them and ntcc gathering. So what is so special about ntcc anymore? I thought folks are called out to be SEPERATE,not trying to look,gangster signs at graduation,kids playing sports and robbing God of there time and Money. Cost for kids to play sports! On and on!
Where is Mike K. TV. Sure we will see that next on his blog!

Jeff,this needs a thread of it's own!!

CM

Casey Hayes said...

I wanted to say a few things about this guy who is quoting Bible.

1. Most of us on this blog know the Bible very well. Quoting scripture is one thing-- understanding what it is really saying is another. The Scribes & Pharisees knew the scriptures in and out, but Jesus understood that they totally missed the whole point, which is that God loves people and wants to help them. That is why Jesus rebuked their self-righteousness attitute and hypocrisy. Like the Pharisees, ntcc preachers can quote the Bible, but totally miss the point about loving and serving others.

2. The spirit in which the person quoting scriptures is very evident: He despises us, probably hates us, and wishes God would strike judgement on all of us. I want you to really think about it-- where is God's LOVE in quoting judgement scriptures?

This judgemental attitude is one of the reasons I left ntcc. "Sinners" and other Christians are the ones who showed me and my family REAL love and care. People would ask why the church wasn't helping out, and I really had NO answer. It was embarrassing and discouraging. Jesus was a great example of loving sinners and others, but ntcc despises sinners and those who they don't consider "equal" with them. If those of you in ntcc could only see how Pharisitical you really act you'd be ashamed to call yourself Christians.

3. These people who attack us for leaving ntcc don't know anything about the FACTS. They never ask, or call to find out. They don't want to know. You left ntcc so therefore you must be BAD, and a sinner, and evil now. They have no idea of what they are even talking about. And the irony is.... alot of them will eventually leave ntcc themselves... and then they will say, "Wow, they were right all along and I was blind to it all". Just as the Pharisees hatred of Jesus blinded their eyes to their evil ways, so also ntcc people's hatred of those who have left have blinded their eyes to the bad deeds that ntcc does to it's own members.

Jeff said...

MLJ said...

Actually Jeff you just caused me to remember that I had an NTCC Preacher come to ME asking to borrow $100.00. I do not believe I got it back.

Jeff said...

I loaned an NTCC minister $100 that I never got back. The NTCC made no attempt to make it right either. I brought the situation to the pastors attention and of course he said I was on my own. Frankly I don't blame him for telling me that because it was my fault for trusting and loaning the NTCC minister the money from the start. A broke NTCC minister would unlikely have the means to pay someone back. If they did you would be waiting a while.

If I knew what I know now, the NTCC would have hardly gotten a dime out of me. The reason this guy was broke was because of the NTCCs schedule. He couldn't find a good job where he didn't have to work on the weekend or in the evenings. He drove all over the city of Atlanta picking up folks for church which made him even more broke. I was stupid for even loaning the guy money. Then to top it all off he met a girl with four kids who he fell in love with. She was looking for a husband and he was desperate for a wife.

The NTCCs system caused that one. When you can't date anyone outside of your own church the pickins get slim. A normal guy with a normal desire for women is placed in a serious struggle. There are plenty of good women out there. Just not plenty in the NTCC. I've seen brothers in the NTCC who were desperate to marry some woman that they would have otherwise not even considered. It happens with the NTCC women also.

Sometimes they will marry a guy that they wouldn't have considered either. Then the couple winds up broke and now they even have a greater struggle within their marriage. Broke and unhappily married. That's a bad combination. I've seen brothers get married in the NTCC just to get divorced just 2-6 months later.

Man they need to let these brothers go to another church and find a wife. So what if they leave. All kinds of people leave the NTCC every day. Some people stay one month, others stay one year, others stay a couple of years; but if you put it all together there is always someone leaving the NTCC. I'm still finding out about people who left the church here in Columbus who I thought were still there.

Jeff

Chief said...

CM said...

Could peek over there neighbors yard and see no difference between them and ntcc gathering.

Jeff said...

In all fairness the women do have dresses and the men are modestly dressed.

I saw one boy with his hat turned around backwards playing foosball. All the NTCC pastors that I was ever with would have been apposed to boys wearing their hats around backwards. If the truth be known, my boy is going to wear his hats frontward also. However I could care less what someone else decides for their kids. I'm not raising their kids I'm raising mine. The reason I mentioned that is because the NTCC pastors that I was with or RWD for that matter would have either told the parent to correct their child on the spot and make him put his hat on right or take it off, or they would have preached at the parents during the next church service. What they wouldn't have done is take a picture of it and post it on the internet. Kekel has an agenda for sure.

CM: I do understand your point. Kekel is posting all these pictures for a reason. He is definitely trying to blend in with the rest of the world. I would have told my son to flip his hat around straight. Kekel is trying to get even more money and he knows if he blends in with the rest of the world he will do it. What he is trying to get people to see is that the NTCC is not much different than the rest of the world. What he is doing is the exact opposite of everything that RWD taught. I'm not saying RWD was right but what I am saying is that Kekel is one big hypocrite who has perpetuated a double standard.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

The no difference I was referring to is,basketball courts,foosball,pingpong table. One of the minister's sitting around in a gasp..tee-shirt,men wearing baseball caps,stylish sunglasses. All of those are way different look for ntcc minister's. Yes the women are still trying to play sports in there long skirts(hilarious looking) Most men in slacks and those ugle shirts,slicked back hair. See some women trying to be casual hairstyle. All it comes across as sloppy!

Ntcc should really give it up. They are not going to look,act,have fun as mainstream folks do.
CM

Jeff said...

I see your point CM.

Jeff

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute! Rev. Crain was able to move his escrow from one state to another?!!! This is not allowed. If the church shuts it's doors in a town the escrow is to stay for the next minister who starts a church there. I know this for a fact! I understand the reasoning but by allowing him to move his escrow they are saying that God is done in that town for good. Shame!!!!

Vic Johanson said...

"Wait a minute! Rev. Crain was able to move his escrow from one state to another?!!! This is not allowed."

The whole "escrow" thing is likely just a hoax anyway; it's a method of amassing a pile of money to use as they see fit. Since there is no accountability, who knows what's going on with that money?

pdq said...

CM said..."We were told that we should have told them."

pdq says…”I did this one time (my first and last time).”

Rejoice with me in this initial online telling of another piece of NTCC history (11,882 characters, with spaces; I either lied previously or added more since, which is it NTCC? I vote for…“pdq is a liar!”…just to get it out of the way.):

Once upon a time, in a place not so far away…I called Rev. Olson (the Pastors weren't/aren’t allowed to call Pastor Davis, you know…the chain of command thing) to let him know we were not able to pay the church bills, and could we please have some money, or else downsize the work (the church was renting three properties for our full schedule of church activities), so the bills would be more manageable. Rev. Olson said if either of these events occurred, our replacement would be the one bringing any money the work needed, and we would be recalled to Graham. This in itself was notable; as this was one of two times (in almost 20 years) Rev. Olson didn’t need to ‘check’ with Pastor Davis, and gave me an answer immediately. It was ‘almost’ as if he was expecting this call, and had already gotten an answer. Could this even be possible? We had just left another work, and had liquidated (and spent) our assets (including most of our ‘savings’) a few months before, to get to this next work. So leaving to go anywhere was not an option for us. This work could have accommodated its then current congregation, and 50% additional growth, with one less rental property; and I told Rev. Olson as much.

Here is some background: I was told by Pastor Davis this work was in good shape and self supporting (before he sent us there). We made this call to Rev. Olson shortly after we assumed the work. As I mention above, we had liquidated our assets (once again) to get there. I assumed financial aid would be a given when requested, since the condition of the work was misrepresented to us by Pastor Davis, and the Reverend we relieved. I assumed (and still do) Pastor Davis misrepresented the work to us because the condition of the work was misrepresented to him by this Pastor. I have since learned, through my own observation, this same Pastor often misrepresents things (exaggerates/overstates) with regards to the positive condition of his work(s). As a bonus, he is another one of NTCC’s abusive Pastors. That’s right; I have seen him in action. Although, why recurring instances of the Holy Ghost not informing Pastor Davis (all the disparate aspects of this account, Rev. Denis’ shenanigans, etc.) continue to surface, is another imponderable since Pastor Davis has never missed God, and all he does is by the Holy Ghost. Since this it true (Pastor Davis has never missed God, and all he does is by the Holy Ghost), God is the one responsible for the deprivations NTCC’s Ministers must routinely endure. The Pastor I am discussing has yet to be recalled to Graham, even though this particular instance happened almost fifteen years ago, and even though this type of behavior has been recurring. As I mentioned earlier, I know he has not mended his ‘ways’ because I have had additional opportunities (years later) to observe his conduct.

After this, there were other times we needed help from the Organization, and didn’t have any escrow, and we didn’t ask for help. Why? Well I’ll tell ya, it’s because there was never another instance where I could make a stronger case than the one above, so I could not expect the answer to be any different.

That’s right, there were other instances where the condition of the work was misrepresented to us by Pastor Davis, and by the Pastor we were relieving. Stated differently, the above was not an isolated instance. Actually, this was the case in all but one work we were assigned to. Never to a greater degree than above; but always to an equal degree, or to a lesser degree than above.

Please continue below with me:

pdq said...

Thanks for sticking with me; your stamina, and tolerance for minutia, is admirable:

Here is some more background: After we got there, and during the changeover, the Pastor we were relieving said there were thousands of dollars in the General Fund. He was very eager to sign the books over to me when we first arrived. I soon found out (by reviewing the books during changeover) he had not paid any of the church bills for that month (some were even past due), and some of the monthly bills for two months (those were way past due).

When this came to my attention (again, by reviewing the books prior to changeover), I refused to assume this Pastorate until the Pastor had paid all the church bills (including buying food and heating fuel), so the works condition at my assumption would be accurately reflect on paper.

So there was actually $23.47 (amount changed to protect the innocent [me], but the actual amount is a similarly low figure) in the general fund; after he paid the bills he should have already paid prior to my arrival and/or prior to signing the books over to me.

So what was the overall condition of this work? Well, since you asked…The church was not self supporting (as I had been told by Pastor Davis); only had $23.47 in the general fund (and not thousands); required my wife and I to get secular jobs (this Pastor’s wife was working when we got there); the Pastor I relieved had reached very few of the church members (as most of them had PCSed from other works) already there when I arrived; most of them PCSed within 4 months of him having turned the Pastorate over to me (he never told me most of the congregation was ‘short’, though he knew this fact; and I didn’t think to ask, though after this I always did).

As a personal bonus to me he had put off (or did a half way job on) a lot of maintenance that needed to be done, so I was saddled with this also. Saddled with both the cost, and the labor, of doing (and redoing much of what he had already done) church maintenance. Although, this Pastor was diligent in pointing out all the maintenance that needed to be done at changeover; so he was aware of the condition (with regards to maintenance) of his work. He had done a lot of maintenance (of the just-good-enough-so-I-can-say-I-did-it variety) just prior to my arrival.

As I mention above, my wife and I got jobs (the organization approved this), and began paying some of the Church bills ourselves. This was in addition to additional giving (above normal tithe and offerings) by the congregation. This necessity continued for half the time we were there, until the work was built up to an acceptable level. Though, I never felt comfortable receiving a ‘salary’ from this work, so I never did (yes, this was my decision).

Remarkably, the Pastor who relieved me was allowed to downsize this same work, and was even allowed to eventually close this same work; though when we left this work it was self supporting (and not just on paper from not paying the bills). The Pastor who relieved me is another of the many abusive Pastors comfortably operating under the watchful eye of Pastor Davis and company. That’s right; I have seen him in action also. Maybe he ran too many people off. After this closing, he was given another work to go to; while we had been recalled to Graham.

Please continue below with me:

pdq said...

Thanks for sticking with me; your stamina and tolerance are approaching mania:

I did ask for money from the headquarters at other times (at one other work), but the circumstances were entirely different. I only asked for money at this other work because we had escrow built up (over $10,000), that they could send us. So, as long as we had escrow built up, they would send us our church’s money (as long as I was able to make a strong enough case, which I guess I always did). Yes, that’s correct, you have to aggressively sell many things to get the organization to do what they should be bending over backwards to do, and even then there is no guarantee.

Remember Pastor Davis often saying, “If your husband is smart enough to make the money, he is smart enough to spend it.” Well pdq says, “If you’re smart enough to put money in an escrow on your own, you’re smart enough to take it out on your own.” But, NTCC does not agree with this; which is not surprising since linear thinking, and a consistent across the board standard, is not one of their long suites.

Another thing I learned (from this same Pastor first, but then from others after him) during my almost 2 decades of being involved with NTCC is…Never trust the inventory, always verify all that is on it, so you don’t sign for anything that isn’t there, or isn’t serviceable. A word about inventories: Inventories are required to be done, and mailed to HQ, bi-annually, so this means these Pastors are knowingly sending in inventories that are not accurate (at least for the prior mandatory inventory period).

Note to all NTCC Pastors: When you and/or your wife have to get a secular job to pay the Church bills, and/or you shake down the congregation for money above tithe and normal offerings to pay the church bills, and/or use any of the other ‘creative’ ways NTCC Pastors use to ‘pay’ church bills, and you don’t tell HQ, the Pastor who relieves you will be unaware of this, and will initially have to do the things you did to pay the bills. The new Pastor and his wife may get the jobs, but they may not want to shake down the congregation as you do. The new Pastor may REFUSE to shake down the congregation as you do.

As you know, NTCC Pastors are supposed to clear any requests for additional funds from their congregation with HQ, before they ask their congregation…unless this ‘policy’ has changed also. For as long as I can remember, all that is to be said come offering time is, “All Christians pay tithe and give offerings” It is also authorized to add something like, “So you give as unto the Lord, and the Lord will bless you according to your giving.” Anything more than this must be pre-approved…each time; again, unless this ‘policy’ has changed also.

Continuing: But, the new Pastor may not want to get a secular job (because he was told he wouldn’t have to get one when he got there, as your church was ‘certified’ to be in such great shape, and since he didn’t need to get a secular job at the work he just left, since it was also in great shape). The new Pastor may also want to hold onto any savings he may have a little while longer. So if you’re doing any of this without telling HQ, go ahead and tell them…do the right thing, follow NTCC ‘policy’, and be a brother to the one who will be Pastoring your church after you are reassigned. Tell the arriving Pastor this also, when he calls you a month before he gets there, to get the ‘skinny’ on your work.

Please continue below with me:

pdq said...

Thanks for sticking with me; you must have OCD too:

You may choose to ignore the import of this pdq ‘testimony’ because I am the only witness (well, other than my wife, and this Pastor and his wife, and the congregation of the Church I am discussing, and Rev. Olson and Pastor Davis). But, over the years you have routinely accepted a negative witness as gospel with similarly flimsy ‘proof’. To illustrate…If Pastor Davis (or an overseer, or a fellow minister) says something negative about someone no longer in the fold, you will accepted it, no questions asked, and will even pass it on as ‘gospel’.

Regardless of any claims Pastor Davis makes (he has never missed God, he can’t remember the last time he sinned, all he does is by the Holy Ghost, etc.) he is still only one witness. With the frequent opportunities NTCC provides you to be accepting of a double standard, why do you feel compelled to personally selectively apply the ‘3 witness’ rule also?

Another trip down memory lane, brought to you by NTCC…I hope you enjoyed our little tête-à-tête. Sleep tight and sweet dreams, rest in the knowledge you are winning and you can never trust (and must ignore) your own experiences; to the detriment of your own immediate family, and the glory of God!

Yours In Him/In His Service,

pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....

pdq said...

I recounted, and the above pdq post is 12,032 characters with spaces vice the 11,882 characters with spaces I shared in the article. Sorry for lying again. I guess I can't help it.

pdq

Anonymous said...

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