Thread #53 An Anonymous writer posted this information two threads back. I thought it was so good I quite rapidly decided to make it a headline. This is excellent information that very accurately represents the NTCC.
Anonymous wrote...
Thousands of Christians have given up on going to church because of the spiritual abuse they have suffered as part of another congregation, says a pastor who offers warning signs that a pastor may be too controlling.
In "Exposing Spiritual Abuse," Mike Fehlauer says that the problem is "rampant and more widespread than we have wanted to believe," and relates several horror stories of the way some pastors have exercised inappropriate power and control over their church members.
In his Charisma House book, Fehlauer tells of a West Coast family told off by their pastor after going on a vacation without first getting his permission. The rest of the congregation was ordered not to talk to the family for a period of time, during which the children were not allowed to play with other youngsters in the church.
In another church, a young woman was told that she should not date her boyfriend because he attended a different church, and a man was told that his wife had not been accepted for the worship team because she was too fat and did not meet the unspoken " 5-7-9 " rule, referring to the dress sizes acceptable for singers.
Such stories are "much more typical than any of us would like to admit," Fehlauer writes. "The sad truth is that many churches today struggle with varying degrees of control, which can lead to devastating abuse if not corrected."
That abuse has resulted in "untold thousands of wounded and disillusioned Christians who believe they've been burned by the one institution that was supposed to help them." Many turn their back on the church for good, he adds.
The pastor of Tree of Life Church in New Braunfels, Texas, Fehlauer outlines the key warning signs of an abusive church, including "power positioning" where the pastor starts to take the place of Christ in people's lives, the demand for unquestioned authority, and an atmosphere of secrecy.
Other "red lights" include an elitist attitude that discourages members from attending other churches, an emphasis on "performance," motivating members by fear, and difficulty in leaving on good terms.
Anonymous
PS: We have three good threads in a row so please feel free to continue with any one of them.
126 comments:
You know, The thing that bothers me about all of this is the fact that NTCC just uses you, abuses you, and then puts you in a position where you can't leave, either monetarily, or mentally. And whenever you do finally muster up the courage to leave you are basically kicked to the curb and forgotten.
I guess being kicked to the curb and forgotten by them is the lesser of the 3 evils though.
I believe that most people out here, as well as people who are on other Blogsites exactly like this would just "disappear" if NTCC would do a better job (Or any kind of job, for that matter)of reaching out to the people who have been hurt and issuing some kind of apology. I don't know what they are waiting for except for the fact that if they did apologize then that would mean an admission of guilt (GOD FORBID)for past actions.
It is my firm belief that all the changes that have been made by NTCC is a direct result of Blogsites exactly like this one. And believe me, For them it's not MCK's plan to build some sort of "Mega Church" but for NTCC it's just a fight for survival due to shrinking numbers, as well as church's in the organization closing their doors.
"You know, The thing that bothers me about all of this is the fact that NTCC just uses you, abuses you, and then puts you in a position where you can't leave, either monetarily, or mentally. And whenever you do finally muster up the courage to leave you are basically kicked to the curb and forgotten"
Perfectly stated........you took the words right out of my mouth =0
God has blessed us since we have left NTCC abundantly!!!!!!!!
I believe if we would have stayed within their twisted org. that we would not have the house, jobs or freedom we feel since we have departed.
Most who stay with this group for a long time I would imagine have a hard time in the "outside world" and this could be due to having no real history to purchase a house, get a good job etc......
Glad to be gone!!!!!
Anonymous said...
"I believe if we would have stayed within their twisted org. that we would not have the house, jobs or freedom we feel since we have departed."
Jeff said...
You certainly wouldn't have the freedom and you certainly wouldn't have the job "if" you were ever required to work on the weekends or in the evenings. You may have kept the job but the NTCC leaders wouldn't have been happy with you and they would have made it quite clear. They only want you to work 8-5 Mon-Fri because that schedule fits "their" schedule. You most likely wouldn't have the house. The NTCC is very good at one thing. Keeping most of their people in poverty.
Good post Anonymous.
Jeff
Mark G. wrote...
I believe that most people out here, as well as people who are on other Blogsites exactly like this would just "disappear" if NTCC would do a better job (Or any kind of job, for that matter)of reaching out to the people who have been hurt and issuing some kind of apology.
Jeff said...
I believe you are quite right! The only problem is the NTCC would also have to discontinue all their crazy practices, relieve three quarters of their pastors, change their doctrinal statement, restore the money they've extorted from their members, and also apologize. Then all this blogging would stop.
Until that happens I have a "duty" to expose the NTCC for exactly what it is. What folks decide to do with all this valid and credible information is totally up to them. All I can do is put the word out with the help of everyone else, and this blog will continue to serve it's purpose one by one just as it has been.
Know the truth and the truth will set you free from the NTCC.
Jeff
Abusive leaders use their position to demand loyalty and submission. Ken Blue states, "I have heard many pastors say to their congregations, 'Because I am the pastor, you must follow me.' Their demand was not based on truth or the God-directedness of their leadership but on their title. That is a false basis of authority . . . any appeal to authority based on position, title, degree or office is false. The only authority God recognizes and to which we should submit to is truth." Other leaders use titles such as "God's man" or "the Lord's anointed" so that others will treat them with special reverence and keep themselves above accountability that others in the congregation are held to. "If by appealing to position, unique claims or special anointings, leaders succeed in creating a hierarchy in the church, they can more easily control those beneath them.
FB
Jeff....
I was just sitting here thinking. I don't know all of the reasons as to why Tracy took down the Blogsite but I suspect that a lot of it had to do with the fact that her Mother is/was seriously ill and possibly for other more personal reasons. I just wonder how hard it would be to have access to the information on that Blogsite. It had a wealth of information on it.
Anyway, Back to NTCC. Speaking for myself, I would be happy to just get an apology out of them, But I know that not even that will happen. Les Contreras would not even so much as talk to me in a private setting concerning things that happened.
Many of the Pastors at NTCC are just Nutless,Gutless Cowards. Oh, Don't get me wrong, They're 10 Feet tall and Bulletproof behind a Pulpit though. But they never, ever have to worry about that Microphone reaching up and popping them in the mouth.
Mark...
I was told of the reasons why Tracy took down her blog. The person who told me received the information directly from Brian. I can tell you that her views about the NTCC haven't changed. She had valid reasons for taking down her blog that I am not a liberty to disclose using this forum. It this point, I intent to leave this blog up indefinitely. Sooner or later, I'm sure I will get tired of all this posting but for now I haven't.
The biggest problem that I have with all this blogging is that the more I dig up, the more infuriated I get with the NTCC. It's no fun having to admit to yourself that you bit off on a scam, hook, line and sinker. You feel quite foolish when you come to that realization. The scamster may have to deal with his conscience, (if he even has one any longer), but the person who was scammed has to deal with the reality that he was played like a sucker. Who wants to keep being reminded of that all the time?
I guess the one strength that I have is that I don't let that reality cripple me. Then the NTCC would really win. I still function quite well. Unfortunately I can't say the same about many other people who have left the NTCC. Many people have been totally devastated by the NTCCs antics. Marriages have been totally wrecked, careers have been totally thrown away, families have been totally forsaken, money has been totally squandered and bank accounts have been depleted for nothing more than the sake of the org. Many people are having a real hard time getting their lives back in order. The NTCC is so thoroughly destructive; and more so than most folks can even imagine. I read information about the NTCC from another source that leaves me unsettled, troubled and disturbed.
I have never had as much disdain and contempt for any other organization as I do for the NTCC. There is not even a close second. Ministers such as Briggs are complete nincompoops and idiots.
I'm going to get the word out about those abusive, money hungry crooks.
Jeff
Jeff,
That is exactly how I feel... like I fell for a scam. It's like telling your friends, "You know that Nigerian internet scam, where they tell you they're a millionaire trying to get their money to America, but need someone's checking account to deposit into? So you give them your bank info? Well, I fell for that!" That's how I feel.
I'm right there with you Casey. The stuff that ministers are allow to do now is mind boggling. Church members weren't even allowed to do as much a ministers are now.
It seems like secular college attendance is quite acceptable now. I have heard of two current NTCC pastors who are attending a secular college. Faithful church members weren't even allowed to attend college. You could have tried to if you wanted, but you certainly would have got blasted and blacklisted. You would have been labeled as someone who loved the world more then you loved God.
Jeff
I would let my wife attend college first (oh wait, I am already doing this), so she would have something to fall back on in the event of my demise.
Of course I would then have to iron my own shirts.
I always put my wife and her welfare first. But she also always puts me first.
pdq
This post reminded me of how I came to know the ntcc.
I started with somebody inviting me out to the servicemen's home.
It was a thur. service and there were not alot of people, the preacher was really loud and didn't really had a message other than just scream and go on about sin and this and that.
I was not impressed with the preaching but I just felt sorry for this couple, I just wanted them to suceed so much, it was their first work and they needed people so I started attending.
I guess it doesn't take alot to get some people in and little by little you begin to give the people control of your life because you are young and you want somebody to become your mentor. I remember that I was going through some really difficult time emotionally and that is why I believe I got involved with ntcc.
I remember the first time that the head of the org was coming through, rwd, everybody there in the servicemen's home, was head over heels of how he was this great man of god and the directors were ever so careful in putting the home ever so neat and clean and they even cleaned the carpet and throughout the whole week they didn't want us to dirty the carpet that had just been cleaned so they put sheets all over the house and it just looked so ridiculous. I remember thinking, "if somebody will come and visit you and then will reprimand you for having a little bit of traffic stains then what kind of man is this? "
That kind of adulation for a man didn't impress me much, which caused me to just stay away from him for the time that I was around.
Opal
Opal,
RWD is no different than you. He is nothing special, no miracle man, he cannot raise the dead, heal the sick, or cause the blind to see, walk on water.
He poops, pees, passes gas, belches and has bad breath just like you and me.
Some days he does not feel like getting out of bed, just like you and man.
Satan likes him "just the way he his", just like Mr. Rogers likes you "just the way you are!!"
He is a con artist of the highest order. In fact, he just recieved an award, called the Order of the Con Artist. He cannot hand his award around his neck. If he did, he would hang himself!
As one brother told me, I now say to RWD: Go Slap Yourself!!!
Bro Johnson
I posted this on another thread but I think it is more suited here.
there are two books I have read that I think are enlightening and validating.
Quitting Church by Julia Duin
and
Toxic Faith by Stephen Arterburn
Toxic Faith is about being "addicted" to religion and how the different "tiers" of people in an org. interact.
Quitting Church is about the varrious reasons people are leaving their churches. Very interesting and enlightening.
I think the info in these books can help.
fiona
Fiona,
I haven't read those books yet, but did read maybe an outline of what they were about. I was very surprised to find that there are other churches out there that are abusive as well. There is another book called, "Twisted Scriptures" that is suppose to be good.
Casey
Jeff said…“I guess the one strength that I have is that I don't let that reality cripple me. Then the NTCC would really win. I still function quite well.”
Jeff,
I had a plan for my life before NTCC. The plan is still there, but a person only gets one shot at life, to make what they can out of it, and do all the good they can while it lasts.
I spent almost 20 years of my mortal life in NTCC being worse than an infidel. If I live to 80, this is almost one fourth. I could have died lost in sin.
Like you Jeff, I have not allowed my time in NTCC to debilitate me. I owe it to God—and my family, present (my NTCC friends have all forsaken me) and future friends (so I won’t be a burden to them)—to maintain my motivation (and drive to succeed in reversing the damage) high, and to keep my attitude right so I can avail myself of all the opportunities God has been presenting me with. The iron is now hot and I must strike while I still have my health and some youth left.
For the NTCCer, as they approach the end of their days, when they have stayed in NTCC long enough for it to be too late for them to reverse the deprivation, they will have nothing. In most cases no children to help them when they are old, no substance to help themselves when they are old, no friends that can help them (because they are in the same boat), a church that does nothing substantive or lasting for them, multiple marriages in their wake, poor health, bad teeth, no home, junky car, no more opportunities...no hope. Lonely, alone, scared, and seething from their wasted life and missed opportunities.
Public assistance, national health care, food banks, thrift stores, public transportation, unhealthy food, et cetera, will be their lot. Will there even be any Social Security in another few years? What will the Ministers that opted out of Social Security do? The husband may be able to go to the VA but the wife likely won’t (if she is not prior service). If a person manages to save $50,000 by the time they are too old to make any more money (or Pastor), this will yield $1,000 per month for 4 years and 2 months.
The NTCC life is a life of missed opportunities, shattered dreams, and squandered substance; the owner of which the Bible classifies as worse than an infidel. Since they won’t be able to reverse this they are condemned to dying as an infidel (worse). They didn’t take care of their family, themselves, sinned against knowledge, their own better judgment, will be held accountable, and can only rightly blame their own self.
God has delivered me from my NTCC life of NTCC compromises, NTCC misdirection, NTCC sleight-of-hand, NTCC double standard, NTCC’s bad example, and never fulfilled NTCC promises of God’s blessing just around the next corner. I have been given another chance, and for this I am grateful to God. A chance that was impossible for me to take advantage of until I pried NTCC’s hands of avarice from my life; which I also allowed to attach to my family, potential, substance. Chances no one can take advantage of while a part of NTCC.
pdq (who morns for those in NTCC)
pdq: Amen Brother. I'm with you. We move forward. Hopefully we can motivate and influence others to do the same.
I really believe that there are a lot of good people in the NTCC who deserve better.
Your friend,
Jeff
pdq,
You've summed up my sentiments exactly. Due to my age (which is close to yours), I find myself pushing myself to succeed financially. I am not motivated by greed, but by a fear of becoming old and having no money or health care. Fortunately, things have been working out pretty good. All I need now are some stable years to put some money in the bank. And like Jeff and yourself, I refuse to let my ntcc past ruin my future.
Hey Casey! It was good talking to you today.
Jeff
Someone keeps popping up in China. I wonder who it could be. It's the same location every time.
Jeff
PDQ....
I'm going to print out what you wrote above and keep this on my desk to remind me of how fortunate I am.
I wish there was some way I could put what you wrote into the hand of every layman as well as every Pastor at NTCC.
There was someone that I knew in Hawaii when we were both in the Servicemens home there that after a long time I finally was able to make contact with. (Well, actually he made contact with me.) But, at any rate we were talking about our former Pastor and how we both felt so bad for him. I mean, 35+ years and not a pot to pee in, or a window to pour it out of!
I'm not a materialistic person, not by any stretch of the Imagination. I suppose I would call myself a "minimalist". I suppose there is such a word because I don't see the red line indicating a spelling error.
At any rate, Good post. And as I said earlier, I wish I could put what you wrote on the front door at NTCC for all to read.
Mark G: That is exactly why pdg got the big Amen from me. That was an outstanding post. I just wish that current NTCC folks could open their minds and receive it. Life doesn't have to be full of so many of the ups and downs that the NTCC puts you through.
I'm going to let these threads run their course and then start a thread with pdq's statement.
Thanks for all the participation you guys. This blog wouldn't be worth squat without all this participation. I really believe that we are helping.
Jeff
This blog is great!
As was Tracys.........anyone have a # for her?
And yes Jeff please leave this blog up indefinitely as it is a great resource for those who are thinking of leaving. For me reading Tracys blog before our family departed was so-ooo helpful and needful conformation.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time that you do to help those in need =)
Glad to be gone!
Pdq said:
"The husband may be able to go to
the VA but the wife likely won’t (if she is not prior service)"
This statement stood out to me the most in pdq's well written soliloquy.
Take what he has written multiply times times two. It equals a life that is twice as worse for the women.
To blindly trudge towards the future, with no preparation or forethought is foolish and one could even say tempting God (God will save me if I jump off this cliff).
pdq wrote at the end of his message that he "mourns for those that are still in ntcc" and that sounds ever so nice but yet he won't let some people to even ask him to clarify something he said in a post because they classified themselves as "anonymous"
What if some of these anonymous people are still "in" ntcc and therefore they don't wish for the moment to be known?
But oh well, I guess he is the only one who can hide before an anonymous name like pdq, whoever that is. I don't know who he is, only the people like jeff and casey and others know who he is but the rest of the people that come and sincerely try to find answers don't, so please forgive me pdq I will promise to never ever question you or even address you in any thing for all that you say is right, everybody here worships your posts and without your posts, we would be ever so lost. I'm sorry for having the audacity to even say all these things, please forgive me.
xoxo
belovd
beloved,
totally agree. If anyone puts limiations on me,ultimatiums. I will balk as hard as a stubborn mule! No one has any right to come on here and give there high and mighty declartions. Oh,if your sign as ANON. Then I am not wasting there time to respond back.
We are such petty peons ,we should bow down to such a mighty poster. Who says he can't limit himself. And HAS to write such lengthy and sometimes boring posts.
pdq,get off your high horse. Your no better then anyone on here!!
ANON!
Anonymous said...
And yes Jeff please leave this blog up indefinitely as it is a great resource for those who are thinking of leaving.
Jeff said...
Thank you very much. I'm glad this blog is a help for many. I wish I would have had access to this type of information long before I did. I wouldn't have squandered so many year of my life away fiddling around with the NTCC.
Thanks again,
Jeff
Belovd said...
But oh well, I guess he is the only one who can hide before an anonymous name like pdq, whoever that is.
Jeff said...
pdq suggested that people create a screen name for themselves. Even if the screen name is pdq or belovd, or Chief. There is a benefit to having a screen name. It creates familiarity and some kind of identity. Every time for example that I see "belovd", I know it's the same person who posted the last time and as "belovd", and with continual posting, evidence is created of what his or her intention is here, and there is a degree of trust built.
Take Concerned Minister for example. I don't know who Concerned Minister is but I do know what Concerned Minister is about. He claims to be an NTCC minister which I believe he is and he is for the most part Pro-NTCC. I can live with that and I can respect that. I don't agree with him three quarters of the time or more, but I know what he is about and I don't mind someone standing up for what they believe or what they want to believe. We've all done it at one time or another. Concerned Minister frustrates me quite often however I would imagine that I frustrate him as well so we often agree to disagree. Concerned Minister isn't thin skinned and I can totally respect that. He still drives me nuts every now and then but I still like having him around here. Hey, where are you at Concerned Minister?
When someone posts as strictly anonymous with no screen name, we have no clue who they are from the next anonymous poster, and we certainly don't know what they are all about. It really is good to create a screen name if you don't want to put your real name down. I understand why many folks wouldn't want to put their real name down and I totally respect it but it is a little hard to appreciate someone who posts as "anonymous" because you have no idea if they have even ever posted here before.
Having said all that I do see a need to post anonymous on rare occasions.
Also, everyone who comes on this blog knows a lot about pdq even if they don't know his true identity. He has said that he was in the NTCC for about two decades and he has also said that he is a minister who also served as a pastor and he is married and he is in the military now. That is a whole lot of information. Even though I do, I wouldn't even need to know his name with all that information. Do you see my point Belovd?
Jeff
Anonymous said...
"pdq,get off your high horse. Your no better then anyone on here!!"
Jeff said...
He may not be better but he can read people as well as any, and if some "Anonymous" wants to back him into a corner, I don't blame him for not feeling the need to answer. That is like sucker punching someone. If I am going to question what someone has written, they at least are going to know who it is that is questioning them even if I only write a screen name. They will say, there goes old Chief questioning me again.
If you are going to be man enough to question someone at least be man enough to create a screen name so they can say for example, "there goes old "bull dog" questioning me again. Here comes "bull dog" again. We know a lot about pdq like he was an NTCC minister and he is married and he spent a long time in the NTCC and so on; but who are you? I don't know if you even spent one day in the NTCC or if you are a minister or anything else because all you did is come on here and jump on pdq; anonymously I might add!
pdq has put out so much information about himself that a blind man could probably figure out his identity if they wanted to and he knows that. He has his reasons for going by pdq and that is fine with most of us here. That in itself shows he has a whole lot more character than you have displayed, jumping all over him as the "BIG-BAD-ANONYMOUS".
Buddy you are like the pot calling the kettle black but he is actually not the kettle because he has told a lot about himself and 90% of the posters probably know who he is anyway.
You also wrote: "And HAS to write such lengthy and sometimes boring posts."
Jeff said...
Is it possible that his clearly advanced vocabulary is a little bit more than you can handle? Fact is; the guy probably has a better vocabulary than anyone here other than Vic and he shouldn't be ashamed to use it thank you. Vic and pdq challenge me to try and expand my own vocabulary and I like it. It makes me happy. Yes happy. Thank you pdq and Vic for making me happy. It's pretty apparent that Mark G. appreciated his post as well. We can appreciate someone with scholarly writing abilities. Here is the definition of "scholarly" just in case you don't know: "of, like, or befitting a scholar: scholarly habits."
pdq fits that description and it is nothing to be ashamed of. I will take that any day over a bumbling buffoon who finds it almost impossible to effectively put his thoughts on paper. That doesn't make pdq "better", but it does make him more learned and educated and there is something good to be said for both.
Jeff
Jeff,
Good job!!!
wow,
lets all bow to pdq! I am so impressed with his vocab! And that he has told a little bit about himself.
So that gives him the right to demand others to use a cute little username.
Jeff,
I have no idea who that other ANON! was be it wasn't me!
Anon!
Anonymous said...
So that gives him the right to demand others to use a cute little username.
Jeff said...
pdq may not have the right to demand that someone create a username, but if Anonymous wants an answer from pdq, pdq can make whatever demand he wants, or pdq simply doesn't have to give and answer.
So to make a long story short, if someone wants to question pdq, and they really want an answer, they may want to give them self a user name or they may not get an answer. The fact is he doesn't have to answer even if they do create a user name but creating a user name will increase their chances.
That is pdq's right. I've yet to see many NTCC folks answer any of our questions. Most of the time they simply duck and dodge our questions just like the pharisees did when Jesus would question them.
Anonymous: You may want to grill the NTCC folks for an answer as to why they generally won't answer our questions.
Mar 11.33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.
Jeff's version: Jcc 11:33 And they answered and said unto pdq, We cannot give a screen name. And pdq answering saith unto them, Neither do I answer any of your questions.
Ha, ha. Boy do I humor myself sometimes. LOL.
Jeff
I had no question for pdq or you(Jeff). pdq does not have to answer a question if he so chooses.
I already know why ntcc dodges the tough questions. Because they have no true answers. Just double talk. Like there great politician leader Mike K. He is the best at double talk. Oh,look basketball is fine now folks.But five years ago. Basketball was not allowed to be played casually or like Grant played on a team!
JW dodge tough questions and so do Mormons. All good cults members have nothing to back up there so called beliefs. Oh that is right,policies!
You are absolutely right Anonymous. However someone did have a question for pdq and that seems to be the reason this whole decussion got started I thought? Someone questioned pdq and he requested that they give a screen name in the future.
Didn't you ask this Anonymous?: "So that gives him the right to demand others to use a cute little username."
You see that is my point. We don't know who in the world is asking what when too many people post anonymously. That is the reason for a screen name. Don't take it personal because screen names do actually help.
This is a good thread and I no longer want it to get bogged down by this subject anymore so lets please move on.
Thank you,
Jeff
"How To Spot An Abusive Church"
When a pastor tells his congregation that those who leave his church or disobey his authority are in danger of God’s wrath, you can be sure this man is operating in a spirit of control. He is attempting to sow fear as a carnal means of keeping people in his church.
“If you leave this church,” he may warn, “the blessing of God will be lifted from your life, and you will miss God’s will. You will be in rebellion, and you will open yourself up to all kinds of calamity. The devil will have freedom to attack you because you have walked away from God’s protection,” that “protection” being the one true church that he happens to pastor.
Fear is the motivation behind such comments — not love. You can be sure that this type of reasoning is not from God. Jesus never motivated people out of fear. Fear is a form of manipulation, which the Bible calls witchcraft. Manipulation is sin. Instead of motivating people through love and a call to serve the body of Christ and reach the lost, a spiritually abusive minister will try to motivate through manipulation.
The apostle John is called the apostle of love because he wrote so much about our call as Christians to walk in love. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear," he wrote in 1 John 4:18.
By keeping people in fear, controlling spiritual leaders work to get good Christian people to build their religious kingdoms — by telling them that they are building the kingdom of God . We see this kind of prophet and priest in the book of Jeremiah. The controlling leaders are focused on their own needs being met, and the needs of the people are ignored.
RWD is no different than you. He is nothing special, no miracle man, he cannot raise the dead, heal the sick, or cause the blind to see, walk on water.
He poops, pees, passes gas, belches and has bad breath just like you and me.
Some days he does not feel like getting out of bed, just like you and man.
Good post, But lets take it a step further........
(1) His body produces Testosterone, Just like every male's body does.
(2) His is susceptible to Divorce.
(3) He is also susceptible to Fornication.
(4) Equally Susceptible to Adultery.
(5) Also Susceptible to Lying about it to cover his @#$.
(6) Susceptible equally to every Sin of the Flesh as described in the book of Galations.
The best of men are men at very best.
Hey....R'Dub, That includes you too!!!!!
FB,
You stated,
"You can be sure that this type of reasoning is not from God. Jesus never motivated people out of fear. Fear is a form of manipulation, which the Bible calls witchcraft. "
Here are some quotes from Jesus,
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
It is true Jesus does not want us to fear man but we should fear an awesome and holy God. Your statement misrepresents Jesus and the Bible. Please explain the connection between manipulation and witchcraft.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
concerned,
nice pick of Mt 18:7, maybe we should remember the context here? it is for people who mis-represent God and cause other people to stumble!!!
These are quite often the people who have no genuine fear of God, but only use his name to manipulate and live off of his people..of all people they should be the ones who should be afraid, but self-deception, arrogance, pride all work together in harmony to build there "kingdom"
Proverbs 8:13- The fear on the Lord is to hate evil: pride(arrogance), and arrogancy(self-exaltation), and the evil way,and the froward(decietful)mouth do i hate.
so maybe the leadership of ntcc should stop using fear to manipulate and start fearing for their own souls?
sincerely,
T
(words in quotes are taken from Strong's concordance)
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
You forgot a verse...
2 Timothy 1:7 (KJV) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Of course the Greek behind the word 'fear’ in Matthew 10:28 means awe/reverence, I am not sure why you do not know this, or could not look this up.
Whereas 'fear' in 2 Timothy 1:7 means ‘fear’ in the Greek; which is what FB is referencing (fear as understood in English), since FB was not citing scripture, and was sharing in English. What FB shared in English is consistent with the rest of the New Testament, what you shared in response is not.
From Webster’s…fear (noun) A distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.
As a parent, I do not want my children to fear me.
Also, I am not sure why you also shared Matthew 18:7, as this directly condemns NTCC (and some would say Exers also).
The connection between manipulation and witchcraft is also an easy question to field. Witchcraft is a person allowing themselves to be manipulated (influenced) by Spirit Beings, sometimes so the person can manipulate (influence) the non-spirit world around them--whether this manipulation manifests itself in influencing perception(s) or in more tangible evidence. This is a home grown, off the cuff definition. I never looked at witchcraft as manipulation, but it does fit…good insight FB.
Galatians 5:20 lists ‘witchcraft’ as one of the sins that will exclude a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.
Hope this helps,
pdq
Witchcraft can refer to the use of such powers in order to inflict harm or damage upon members of a community or their property.
Manipulation...
A means of gaining control or social influence over others by methods which might be considered unfair. Social advantage may be sought through either manipulative or persuasive rhetorical arguments.
As I said...good insight FB.
pdq
pdq,get off your high horse. Your no better then anyone on here!!
ANON!
ANON,
I'm going to drive another nail in your beloved coffin...
Or, Doubting Thomas,
Have you ever heard PDQ preach? Pretty powerful, Holy Ghost filled sermons. Imagine having a powerful vocabulary AND saved AND filled with the Holy Spirit.
All I have to say is, watch out, Apostle Paul...You've got competition!!
Bro Johnson
Someone keeps popping up in China. I wonder who it could be. It's the same location every time.
Jeff
Jeff, It could be an Underground Christian...Or Rev MacDonald!! MCK stated to me that he was opening up a work in Seoul, although that was MONTHS ago!!!
The Truth will Tell!!
Bro Johnson
I think that Vic mentioned that he was going to go to china sometimes this summer.
Maybe he is there already.
Belovd
No, it's this fall. Where in China are the hits from? I don't see that data on the counter statistics page.
It is Rev MacDonald. He was on his way to Korea, but got re routed through China! He is probably trying to catch up on the gossip since he hasn't been able to view it from the Philippines. This should be interesting.
Vic,
The China hits are under the "Recent Visitors Map" link in the side bar.
pdq
Wait a second... Why did pdq respond so quickly?! Could pdq be... Rev. MacDonald?!
"The China hits are under the "Recent Visitors Map" link in the side bar."
Oh, I saw that--I thought Jeff meant he knew what city they were from. I guess you have to try estimating it from the map.
The article describes NTCC to a tee!
Wait a second... Why did pdq respond so quickly?! Could pdq be... Rev. MacDonald?!
No, he is not. I know both Men of God, I have heard both of them preach overseas. PDQ is NOT Rev MacDonald.
Bro Johnson
It is Rev MacDonald. He was on his way to Korea, but got re routed through China! He is probably trying to catch up on the gossip since he hasn't been able to view it from the Philippines. This should be interesting.
Anon, let me set the record straight. Rev MacDonald is the ANTI Rev Davis.
He is a Man of God in Word, Deed, and Character. He has and preaches with the unction of the Holy Ghost. He is still associated with NTCC, preaches under the NTCC flag, is one of the FEW bright points of light in NTCC.
He makes Kekel look like a PreSchooler.
Bro Johnson
I really enjoyed reading the most recent posts this evening. I had to work 12 hours today so this is the first chance that I've had to get on the computer.
I'm sure FB is the one who originally posted "How to spot an abusive church". FB has made some very good points. All this participation is great. It makes for some good discussions.
On this rare occasion, I have nothing to add. Imagine that! That's practically a miracle. Ha, ha. Jeff Collins; the bloviating blogster. If someone can't figure out their own character how are they supposed to figure out someone else? Hence, it takes one to know one.
Jeff
The China hits could be coming from Hong Kong, or from a city above it that I can't pronounce.
Germany came up yesterday.
A couple weeks back Nigeria or Cameroon got a hit.
It just goes to show you how powerful and far-reaching a blog can be.
it could just be an accident, we get about 500 hits a month on our website for our construction company and we are regularly getting a couple from china and other odd places and only service the Boston area
t
Every Saturday is official soul-winning day at New Testament Christian Churches throughout the world. Attendance is essentially mandatory for anyone who wishes to be treated as a Christian, and pastors typically gossip acerbically about those who do not perform this duty. In Graham, Washington, attendance is mandatory for all students and ministers by codified standard. Each Saturday, a particular quadrant or zone of the locality is bombarded with hundreds of ministers and students wearing sport jackets, loafers, white shirts and ties, who canvas the area knocking on doors in order to advance the Kingdom of God. They are organized into teams, each having a team leader or “lay-pastor” whose duty it is to inspire greater results from the efforts of the team.
If you show up late for the soul-winning session, do not even bother coming in to the building, because the man who runs the show is going to berate you for not caring enough to show up on time. You will probably have to sit in your own special section like a kid in school wearing the dunce cap and sitting in the corner. This is his way of showing you that he appreciates your soul-winning efforts. He is demonstrating “leadership” and teaching you how to get the most out of people through shame, guilt, and intimidation. This is considered preparation for the ministry, in that each student is being exposed, by practical application, to “the way it’s done.”
MLJ
We are Winning… NTCC depends in large measure upon the seige mentality to engender enthusiasm among the ranks. If they have no enemy, if they are not under attack, if they are not set apart as superior to and hated by all other churches, they lose a great deal of motive power. To simply shout “We are winning” will usually prompt a chorus of cheers, but not a soul would dare to ask “Winning what, how, and against whom?”
MLJ
Fellowship– “Obnoxious” does not begin to describe the rules concerning fellowship. In religious parlance, fellowship is both a noun and a verb. “To fellowship” means to get together, to talk, to visit, to associate. Students and ministers of NTCC surrender their hard-won right to freely associate. Permission must be granted from the leadership before people are free to socialize. Phone calls to other brethren must be “cleared”. No more than two couples may “fellowship” together at one time. Married couples cannot “fellowship” with single people. Stopping to talk in the parking lot at Wal-mart is frowned upon, as this may lead to “gossip”. It is known as “unauthorized fellowship”.
MLJ
New Testament Christian Church is just such a place. It is a church organization with a pyramid structure, with one man on top who claims to be God’s man, with several levels of administration whose logical reason for existence hardly stands up to scrutiny, and with an epidemic case of leadership virus. They preach success, growth, expansion, prestige and image. And many are jockeying for position, their heads filled with dreams of making it “to the top”. Relegating non-clerical church members (the “laity” as it were) to a second-class status, awash in the cult of ministerial priviledge, these preachers get a taste of what it’s like to be part of an aristocracy at a young age, and they like the way it feels. Along with a multiplicity of obnoxious regulations that are easily violated by even the most conscientious strivers, there is the continual exhortation to bring “problems” to the attention of superiors. This is another means of control, and turns brethren against one another. There are plenty of rules violations of which one may be found guilty, and plenty of available informants to tell about it. The same phenomenon takes shape in the local churches, where pastors demand to know when anyone in the church misbehaves, and people are made suspicious against one another. The slightest acts are reported to the pastor and the information put to use for the purpose of control and intimidation. It is a Soviet-style system in which everyone is employed in the act of spying on everyone else.
Even at this present time, rivalries are building among the upper crust of NTCC that will soon shred its fabric. It cannot exist in its current form, but will either become all the way better, or all the way worse. With its current doctrinal positions, its habit of ministerial priviledge, and the way in which the group always errs on the side of abusive authority, the latter seems more likely. Watch your back if you should choose to become involved.
MLJ
Jesus gave instructions to believers to go into all the world and preach the gospel “to every creature”. Yet if we examine the scriptural evidence, we find that evangelism is carried out in many different ways and in many different places. But the pastor of your friendly neighborhood New Testament Christian Church is teaching those who sit under his ministry that God wants them “in church”, that they have no business attending any other church, that the church building is where God does his work, that personal evangelism is not effective, and that they are wrong to take part in such activities. “We’re not here to do street witnessing; you’ll never get them in church that way. Just get them in church”, is the repeated command.
The main point is the desire for attendance. The goal is not to win your soul for Jesus Christ; the goal is to win your loyalty, your full participation, and your financial support. The pastor himself believes that God speaks through him and he craves an audience. He is under a degree of pressure from his superiors to produce results in the form of numbers and cash. The members who attend the church are constantly reminded to “Get them in church, get them in church”. Under the guise of praying for you out of concern for your soul, your friend is consulting with the pastor about you. The pastor, having never met you, is psychoanalyzing you, pointing out your shortcomings and passing along salesmanship techniques to your friend, always making sure to apply plenty of pressure to “Get them in church”. The first thing that must be understood about New Testament Christian Church is this: They have no use for you until you walk through the doors.
Does this seem odd? It certainly should. You will find your friend, your co-worker, or that person knocking on your door to be especially interested in everything about you as an individual. Everything they say to you, every facial expression you see, is an overture. This person seems to display a level of caring that is just somehow unreal. It is not necessarily phony, but it is calculated to achieve her ultimate end, which is to bring you to her church. She is not evil. She is simply sold on a very strong piece of faulty information: that her church represents the only hope you will ever have of making it into heaven. Even if you are already a Christian, this does not matter to your friend. She may treat you nicely and nod her head and say encouraging things when you talk about your own Christian experience, but she does not accept a word of it. In the mind of this seemingly loving person, your life is lacking something very important. Your whole problem is that you do not currently attend her church. In subsequent articles I will discuss the curious doctrines that compel them to place enormous importance on church attendance and upon the act of preaching from the pulpit.
MLJ
The Thief– RW Davis is not above inventing entirely original doctrines that throw his hearers into a conundrum. In such cases, he places before the congregation a decision, to wit: “Do I believe what my own head tells me is right and scriptural, or do I believe Pastor?” More than one noteworthy person within the upper ranks of the group has made statements to the effect that, “If I looked outside and the sky was blue, but Pastor Davis said it was pouring down rain, I would believe my pastor before I would believe my own eyes.” This is why he knows he can get away with almost any statement no matter how unfounded it might be.
Those who desire to build religious empires cannot tolerate followers who are not constantly active and motivated by fear of damnation to strive for more and more results, to bring more people to church, to give more money, etc. Knowing the importance of influencing the young to serve the organization faithfully, RW Davis is openly skeptical that people of advanced age can be saved.
MLJ
ALL
The last few blogs were borrowed from ntccXposed.com.
Many thanks to the author, whomever that may be!!!
MLJ
I believe Brian Pelfry wrote those. His insight is penetrating and accurate, and all who have been involved with NTCC can't avoid the searing truth his words convey. For those who haven't been there, www.ntccxposed.com is highly recommended.
bro johnson, concerning rev. macdonald.
i think some preachers think the unction of the Holy Ghost is blasting people.
you are right with everything you said about rev. macdonald. at least when i was there with him. you could tell the preaching was by the Holy Ghost.
too bad he's in NTCC and sticks up and stands up for them.
His preaching is awesome.
I never spoke to anyone about it while ntcc due to the "it's the devil" thinking. But I remember hearing Davis preach and it was the same way, but in some conferernces and in graham later on, it seemed like he was "trying" to preach. There wasn't anything behind his preaching, it was like he was only talking.
T / PDQ
Regarding MW 10:28. The word fear as referenced to men and then God is the exact same word in this passage. The conext does snot denote awe but fright. As referenced by God's ability to complete destroy the entire person.
Strong's note.
G5399
φοβέω
phobeō
fob-eh'-o
From G5401; to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: - be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.
So the question remains, Did Jesus ever use fear to motivate people? I say yes. FB says no. The answer is important because it reveals to us an aspect of the character of God. Will you allow your hate for NTCC to cause you to mischaracterize God?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
PDQ,
Here is an article for your edification.
We sometimes see witchcraft grouped together with Satanism. But are they really the same? The CRI Perspective in a moment.
People put witches in the same camp as Satanists for two main reasons. First, both witchcraft and Satanism have a number of symbols in common — like the pentagram, or five-pointed star. Secondly, they both place heavy emphasis on magical rituals. Despite these similarities, however, witchcraft and Satanism have their own sets of beliefs and practices which are distinct from one another.
Although various traditions can be found in witchcraft, all witches hold a number beliefs in common. For example, they all subscribe to “animism,” which is the belief that the world is really a living, breathing organism. They not only see the world as being alive, they also regard it to be divine, which explains why witches do not involve themselves in animal or human sacrifices. Moreover, witches maintain that there exists a numer or multitude of gods and goddesses, as well as an infinite number of realities. Their primary deities are the Mother or “triple Goddess” and her male consort, the Horned God. Witches attempt to be in harmony with nature by developing what they believe are latent psychic powers.
Now, while witches deny the existence of Satan as a personal being, most Satanists affirm just the opposite. All Satanists believe in, call on, pray to, and worship Satan, although they may differ on their individual conception of Satan. Furthermore, Satanists generally believe that magical rituals, ceremonies, and sacrifices are the keys to increasing personal power. Thus, they regard sacrificial offerings (whether symbolic or actual) as a legitimate and even desirable means to achieve their own ends.
Witchcraft and Satanism are equally satanic in the sense that they both oppose God’s teachings and are demonically inspired (Deut. 18:9-14; cf. Gal. 5:19-20). However, we must draw the distinction between these two religions so that we can respond to them with intelligence and in a relevant manner.
On witchcraft and Satanism, that’s the CRI Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
God may use "fear" to motivate people. But always with that persons well being in mind.
People might use "fear" to motivate someone to get out of a dangerous or undesireable situation, again, with the other persons' well-being in mind.
The same cannot be said for many religious leaders and organizations, including ntcc.
In those places, fear has been used to manipulate people into doing things against their better judgement in order to benefit the religious organization and/or the leaders. What sorts of things you may ask? Well, like sticking your kid or kids into a nursery for up to 40 hours a week to go recruiting. Or passing up well paying job offers or career decisions that would benefit the family in order to keep to a schedule. (these are just a few examples, I am sure the readers of this blog can come up with more) In these sorts of situations, fear is used to get people to comply with what will benefit the org and the leaders instead of what would benefit the individual and the family. Those of use who have been in ntcc for a length of time know how hell and damnation are heaped upon those who do not comply to the church "policies".
now that, is manipulation. and it is not the first time I have heard it referenced as witchcraft. and if you had been under denis, you might just change your mind. (and for the umpteenth time, denis is/was not the only one guilty of this conduct while in ntcc.)
fiona
On the question of who's reading in China, maybe pdq and Rev. MacDonald are hanging out there together.
Fiona said:
"God may use "fear" to motivate people. But always with that persons well being in mind."
The key word in that phrase is motivate! God motivates people not manipulate.
NS
...and SOME save with fear, pulling them out of the fire.
Some, not all. It may be necessary to motivate some with fear, while not necessary for the masses.
If you have to use fear tactics to get people to stay in your church then your just plain out and out screwed up in the head. And I witnessed fear tactics more times then I can count on my fingers and toes and I hated it. HATED IT!
"...and SOME save with fear, pulling them out of the fire."
You are saving someone from fire, by telling them when they can take vacation, what job to work, whom to talk to, whom to divorce or marry...etc etc? How many times do Bible believing, living right, Christians need to be saved from fire?
Honest question,
Nellashara
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. said...
Will you allow your hate for NTCC to cause you to mischaracterize God?
The issue is does NTCC mischaracterize God? I believe that you are defining the term "fear" incorrectly. NTCC has used "fear" to manipulate God's elect. NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. have you ever been a witness to "fear" in your organization? If so please give your definition of "fear.”
no one hates ntcc.
we hate the hypocrisy of the ntcc.
didn't Jesus hate the hypocrisy of others ?
I agree FB. It is NTCC that is mischaracterizing God. They basically portray God as a mafia type who has to "force" you through fear, guilt and any other coersion to serve Him; when in fact the Bible's version of God is one who loves us and is patient with us. People don't serve God out of "fear" (as in afraid of). They serve God because they love Him.
NTCC thinks that they are getting people to serve God through "fear" (the "you'd better do it or else" type of mafia fear), but all they are doing is getting people to serve NTCC and Davis-- not God! And in the process people learn to despise ntcc and it's leaders.
God certainly has used fear to motivate people. The list of examples where God used fear is so extensive, you would almost be rewriting the entire Old Testament Bible if you tried to make an exhaustive list. It continued in the book of Acts with Ananias and Sapphire and prior to that with Christ making so many references to hell. The Bible ended with an extensive prophesy called Revelation which should instill some degree of fear in any Bible believing Christian.
Having said that I don't remember one single example in the New Testament where Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John or anyone else used fear tactics to motivate folks to give more money. It simply does not exist in the New Testament, but the NTCC uses that tactic with extensive regularity in an attempt to motivate their people to not only pay tithe but to continually give more. This is a fact because I have heard every NTCC pastor that I have ever been with use the fear tactic to get more money.
Look up the words offering, collection, and or money in the New Testament. You can find "almost" nothing about giving money at all say no less the giving of money to the church. What you can find in the New Testament concerning that topic are examples of folks taking up collections or giving money to the less fortunate. This is a topic and practice almost completely foreign to the NTCC. The NTCCs doctrinal statement reads that tithe money is not to be used for charity however in almost every case where you can find a collection of money taken up in the New Testament, it was used to be given as charity to the poor and specifically the poor folks in the church!!!!!!!!! That is totally contrary to the NTCCs doctrinal statement. Money taken up in the NTCC directly benefits the rich like RWD and Kekel; it certainly does not benefit the poor. However the NTCC uses fear tactics to convince the poor to give more money that only winds up tangibly benefiting the rich. What is wrong with that picture? It is anti-Christ / anti-Christian.
The NTCC leadership also regularly uses the fear tactics in an attempt to convince people not to leave the NTCC or else! Or else you will go broke, or else God will destroy you, or else you will wind up in jail or a drunk or on drugs and so on and so on. Yet the people such as Me, CM, Angie, Vic, pdq, Casey, L. Travis, Bro J., T, NS, and others report the total opposite? We seem to be more blessed having left the NTCC. I know that things are not always as they seem but all of us? More blessed? It would certainly appear to be the case! So the NTCCs fear tactics have been proven to be non-credible.
This fact is very important. When God used fear to motivate he backed it up and more importantly so did "his" "real" prophets. Look what happened to Korah, Dathan, Abiram, because they crossed Moses! The Exodus with Moses, Elijah and even Peter in the New Testament. NTCC pastors say we will be cursed and destroyed and yet we prosper and become blessed. Can you spell false prophets?
Continued below...
Jeff
Continued from above...
Don't take my word for it; just try leaving the NTCC and see how much better your life will get and you won't be funding Kekels endeavors anymore you will be funding your own. You won't be putting Kekels son through a $20,000 a year high school, you will be taking care of your own children. Don't listen to me, just keep funding Kekel's churches and houses, and land, and instruments and every single solitary thing else that he owns which is quite a bit I might add. Now my family is prospering because of my efforts and that is the way it should be. If you leave the NTCC and everything in your life gets more messed up, than I am the false prophet, but if you leave the NTCC and your life becomes far better, than the NTCC ministers are the false prophets. Just like Elijah and the prophets of Baal.
Jesus did not do that to his disciples. This is Jesus: Jhn 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, "Will ye also go away?" Jesus didn't say "if you don't like it here there is the door." Jesus didn't say, "If you leave me you will go broke". Yes, Jesus definitely instilled fear but he didn't do it like the NTCC. The NTCC uses fear to suit their own private agenda not Gods.
Jeff
Bro Jeff,
You hit the BIG 30K hits! I think I remember giving you high five on digits when you hit THREE K.
Roll Tide, Roll!
Bro Johnson
must be alot of disobedience in ntcc. they arent supposed to be reading these blogs right ?
"must be alot of disobedience in ntcc. they arent supposed to be reading these blogs right?"
Haven't you heard? That's just a "policy."
FB Said,
"Fear is the motivation behind such comments — not love. You can be sure that this type of reasoning is not from God. Jesus never motivated people out of fear."
Both PDQ and T defended this position. Jeff clearly demonstrated you would have to throw much of your Bible to make this true. God definitely uses fear to motivate people. FB is categorically wrong and has taught a heresy that is supported by such by scholars as T and PDQ. Why is that.
FB said,
"Fear is a form of manipulation, which the Bible calls witchcraft. Manipulation is sin."
When asked to clarify did FB point to the Bible, no. Yet they claim that is where this came from. Here is FB's explanation.
"Witchcraft can refer to the use of such powers in order to inflict harm or damage upon members of a community or their property.
Manipulation...
A means of gaining control or social influence over others by methods which might be considered unfair. Social advantage may be sought through either manipulative or persuasive rhetorical arguments."
FB your original claim was not that witchcraft can mean manipulation but that the Bible calls it that. Why have you taken such liberty with the Bible? NTCC gets called on the carpet (rightly so) when it ministers take such liberty. Yet, the same people swallow and defend what you post. Is that hypocrisy?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
Manipulation
An artificially loving, sometimes selective recruitment process-In a spiritually abusive group, the manipulation begins the moment you set foot in the door. Newcomers are treated differently from those who are already enmeshed in the group.
Black and white thinking-Spiritually abusive groups leave very little room in between the two extremes, thus crowding out personal freedom.
An esoteric approach to truth-Spiritually abusive groups have their own doctrines and their own in-house jargon which they claim can only be truly understood by those who "truly belong."
Scripture Twisting-Leaders of members pronounce they have come up with unique understandings of particular scriptures "through direct communication with God".
A hidden agenda-The hidden agenda of every spiritually abusive group is always the same: the glorification of the leadership. The true goals of the spiritually abusive group, inconsistency and hypocrisy abounds within it. And because this is the case, information control becomes necessary.
Bait and Switch
1. Spiritual abusers bait you with "authority," and switch it with authoritarianism.
2. They bait you with "righteousness," or some other form of spiritual accomplishment, and switch it with elitism.
3. They bait you with "the leading of God's spirit," and switch it with spiritual intimidation.
4. They bait you with "spirituality," or "victory over sin," and switch it with legalism.
5. They bait you with "unity," and switch it with uniformity.
6. They bait you with "honesty," and switch it with abusive denunciations.
7. They bait you with "spiritual discipline," and switch it with excessive church discipline.
8. They bait you with "transparency," and "openness," and switch it with coercive confession.
9. They bait you with "freedom," and switch it with a painful exit process.
I don't hate NTCC I hate the crap that happens in NTCC. I hate that ALL those people who are still in and who have left (including me) have some sort of mental and spiritual damage due to years of mental and spiritual abuse. You can't say you went or are in NTCC and have no mental and spiritual damage. Because you do. Just try to participate in a normal life where you get to think for yourself for a few days (if your still in NTCC) you will find its rather hard to do without someone barking orders down your throat. Took me almost 3 years to recover from that crap. And I am still dealing with issues (dealing as in healing) that are a result of the abuse I suffered from NTCC.
So what do you do when your not being ordered to be here or there, do this or that, not talk to this person or that person because they left, being told you will go to hell if you leave NTCC (I welcome hell after my experience in NTCC. And that means I would rather go there then go to heaven with all the people who hurt me, if they are even going to heaven. I know I don't want to be where they are going unless they GET RIGHT with GOD and they need to. Seriously. NOT NTCC style.)?
I forgave them, But that doesn't mean I have to go back to them. And that doesn't mean I have to stop talking about my experience either.
Being in NTCC is just like being in an abusive marriage. Well I got my divorce(from NTCC). When are you going to get yours?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
Is it possible that fear or manipulation caused Saul to rebel?
FB originally posited, "Jesus never motivated people out of fear."
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A., responded, "Jesus does not want us to fear man but we should fear an awesome and holy God. Your statement misrepresents Jesus and the Bible."
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. also wrote, "Did Jesus ever use fear to motivate people? I say yes. FB says no."
Jeff added, "Yes, Jesus definitely instilled fear but he didn't do it like the NTCC."
I still have to disagree with NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. and Jeff. I can not find in the Bible where Jesus used fear to motivate people/Christians. I can not find in the Bible where context dictates we are to fear God as people/Christians. I may be misunderstanding your positions because of semantics.
The closest I found is Mat. 10:28 (when taken out of its possible context, and/or not using the analogy definition, but there is a catch to this either way, as I will share later); Luk. 15:5 (parallel to Mat. 10:28); and 1 Pet. 2:17. But there are also verses which tell us not to fear God and tell us we don't have the Spirit of fear.
This is not the first time I have studied this topic so maybe someone could help me out. My reasoning may just be stuck in its' prior path, and I need some fresh insight.
Depending on what you all can come up with, I may post an old Bible Study (tweeked for this blog), that MAY show why you all are wrong, or at least ALLOW for FB's and my alternate view.
pdq
Idaho-angie wrote about her situation and it is quite problematic because you have a love and hate relationship with those that said that loved you but at the same time inflicted so much pain, mentally and spiritually.
I can only equate this to the abuse some children suffer at the hands of their parents be it physical or sexual. That is why so many children will never tell what goes on in their house because they don't want any harm to come to those they consider loved ones.
I know that there are lots of people in the ntcc that have learned to just go with the flow.
I've known people that have had to be put on drugs specially those that are of the female gender, because otherwise they would be basket cases without these meds.
How come they are not healed?
How come the pastor in the conference doesn't make an altar call for such people to come forward and let ashmore pray for them and be healed? Everybody says that he has this great ministry in healing and deliverance, why not use it for the people that are suffering all these mental ailments.
Those who love authority over others are in fact the ones who need to be mentored to with truth, which escapes their lives. Jesus Christ does not rule in our hearts by fear, but by love. Any church goer who is told "you dare not touch God's anointed" or other similar fear mongering, ought to get up and walk out, and never return. Following Jesus Christ is what the sheep of Christ do. Jesus does not use "pastors" to bounce people around, cause people emotional distress for asking questions, or cause people to worship at the feet of professional clergy as if they are infallible representatives of heaven. Many "pastors" teach many errors, and it is the right of any believer to question and confront false doctrines, teachings, customs and traditions--without fear of authority. As followers of Jesus Christ it is our responsibility to discern the spirits whether they be of God, and to prove all things. Church leaders almost never want to be challenged about their teachings, customs and practices, but to blindly follow "pastors" is to be entirely foolish. Jesus taught us to BEWARE of false prophets and teachers, as also did the disciples.
Authoritarianism is a man-invented form of fear, and those who rule by causing fear, dread, and loss of salvation for challenging "authority" are all living by a false Christ. I lived it in the former Worldwide Church of God, under the authoritarian dictatorship of the now deceased Herbert W. Armstrong. And that mentality is still thriving in the world of churches and under the false leadership of many church leaders who rule through causing people to fear them. Many "purpose driven pastors" are in that category. I call them "purpose driven abusers." The answer for any believer bound by authoritarianism or false fear is to simply depart from that environment, and look to Jesus Christ who is the real Good Shepherd of your life.
****************
I copied and pasted this article.
Mark G,
Give me a call sometime.
To pdq, FB, NTCC Minister and Angie: This particular thread has taken an interesting twist. On this rare occasion I get to prove that I am not a yes man like I so often accuse so many NTCC pastors that I know.
I also get to prove that I am a man of character and that I also stand by my statements and beliefs once again unlike so many NTCC pastors.
Make no mistake; I am very loyal to pdq and I certainly agree in it's proper context, with what FB posted. However I have to agree with NTCC Minister and disagree pdq on this fear issue and I will explain why. Between the four Gospels, Christ is quoted as using the literal word "hell" on 15 occasions. Now that probably only amounts to 5 times that the word is used by Christ because we all know that there are repeat accounts given throughout all four gospels. He used the word "fire" as it related to hell fire on about 20 occasions which probably translates to about 6 times because the word wasn't evenly distributed throughout all four Gospels. I got tired of counting the word fire, so 20 is as close as I will get but it still suffices to make my point. Christ obviously spoke often of not only "hell" but a burning fire that torments the souls existing in hell. Christ made that point quite clear. Why?
There is no other logical explanation other than Christ wanting to motivate folks to live their life in such a way so that they might avoid going to hell. Christ said that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Not only that, Christ said this: Luk 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."
Jeff said...
Why would Christ "forewarn" someone if he wasn't trying to create fear? He most certainly was. WARNING, DANGER, hence: "FEAR". Out of a good conscience I have to stick by NTCC Minister on this one because I believe he is right. Now to you sorry NTCC yes men pastors; that is character. You ought to write that down in your note book and practice it for a change and stand up to Kekel because he is the perpetrator of double standards. All this policy garbage that he talks about is exactly that; GARBAGE and all you NTCC ministers know it. NTCC ministers would send us to "hell" for the same stuff that Kekel says is "OK" and up to our own discretion now.
Now NTCC Minister: You didn't think you could get off that easy. Do you know who Christ was occasionally talking to when he spoke of hell. Of course you do. RELIGIOUS FOLKS!!! Just like the ones in the NTCC. Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? That is exactly what he would be saying to the hypocritical, double standard, abusive NTCC pastors who act JUST like the pharisees.
And once again neither Christ or any other Apostles used fear to compel folks to give money and the NTCC does it all the time. The biggest hell fire and brimstone NTCC preachers that I ever met were the biggest hypocrites. They remind me of the seven sons of Sceva. The seven sons of Sceva tried to imitate Paul and look what happened to them. Just because Christ used fear doesn't mean some greedy NTCC minister can use it simply to promote the perpetuation of his own greed. It also doesn't mean that they can use fear to try and prevent folks from leaving the NTCC by WARNING them that they will become broke, on drugs, or drunk, while threatening people that God will destroy them if they leave the NTCC.
Christ did none of that so despite the fact that you are right about Christ using fear, you are quite wrong in that Christ did not use it in the same manner that the NTCC regularly does.
Jeff
in our discussion on 'fear' i think we need to remember one thing: that to properly fear God is to answer his call to salvation, thus, becoming "born-again", once a person is born again they are now "children and heirs, joint heirs with Christ" we have been adopted as sons- no longer needing to fear a 'holy and just God' but respecting our "abba father"
does this make sense?
t
I tend to recall a certain President who talked his way out of legalities and instituted his own policies:
William Jefferson Clinton.
"[I]t depends on how you define "alone" ... there were a lot of times when we were alone, but I never really thought we were."
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is"
- excerpts from Bill Clinton's grand jury testimony
"The other thing we have to do is to take seriously the role in this problem of...older men who prey on underage women...There are consequences to decisions and...one way or the other, people always wind up being held accountable." Bill Clinton, June 13, 1996,
You know, if I were a single man, I might ask that mummy out. That's a good-looking mummy!"---Bill Clinton
MLJ
Hello all,
That was quick Jeff. You have cited Christ's use of the word Hell, fire, etc.; Mat. 23:35; Luke 12:5.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. has weighed in with Mat. 10:28; Mat 18:7; and the Strong's definition of 'phobeo'.
If anyone else wants to contribute input in defense of NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. and Jeff's position please do.
I can post my follow up defense of my position at any time. Or acknowledge I am wrong, and publicly apologize for mischaracterizing God, teaching heresy, and misrepresenting Jesus and the Bible.
Here are NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. accusations against me to date:
☺ “Will you allow your hate for NTCC to cause you to mischaracterize God?”
☺ “FB is categorically wrong and has taught a heresy that is supported by such by scholars as T and PDQ. Why is that.”
☺ "Jesus does not want us to fear man but we should fear an awesome and holy God. Your statement misrepresents Jesus and the Bible."
Phew, I hope I am right; these accusations against me are serious. But, maybe I’m right? We may all find out shortly.
pdq
pdq quoted NTCC Minister as saying...
“Will you allow your hate for NTCC to cause you to mischaracterize God?”
Jeff said...
That was an unfounded attack against pdq using semantics. Of all people I would say pdq is probably one of the few who doesn't hate the NTCC. Just like Jesus hated the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, I hate the deeds of the NTCC. NO DOUBT. This is what Jesus said: Rev 2:15 "So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate." Christ hated the deeds of someone and it is a fact NTCC Minister and I hate the deeds of the NTCC.
I don't ever recall pdq saying that he "hated" the NTCC. So if my recollection is accurate, hatred didn't motivate pdq to do anything say no less mischaracterize God. I believe pdq wrote what he felt, and God did and does in fact use love to motivate people and the ultimate show of love was Christ dieing on the cross. Fear had nothing to do with that motivating act. That was pure love and salvation is not fulfilled by having fear for God. Salvation is fulfilled by recognizing the love that Christ showed when Christ died on the Cross and gave himself for a sacrifice for our sins. 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
So you see in essence using the scripture, pdq is right, however so was I using the scripture. So lets rightfully divide the word of truth. Ultimately God wants love from us but that is not to say that he didn't use fear to help condition us to love without fear. The fear of God is the "beginning" of wisdom. The beginning. Love is the end result and when that happens fear goes away. If what I am saying is not true than you can throw out 1Jo 4:18 from the bible.
You can call me the devils advocate or a good politician or someone who does know the bible or all three. I prefer the third.
Jeff
T: The point that NTCC Minister was making was that Christ did use the tactic of fear to motivate people. I simply have to agree with him. He did the same thing in Revelation.
I don't want anyone to misunderstand my point here. The NTCC is not God. The NTCC leaders don't act like Jesus. The NTCC clearly uses that tactic of instilling fear to "manipulate" people. Christ wasn't manipulating anyone and he certainly wasn't instilling fear as a means to gain wealth. NTCC ministers do it all the time and I know it for a fact because I witnessed it first hand.
Christ loved and motivated people and the NTCC leaders simply manipulate people for the sake of RWDs organization. Why don't NTCC pastors just break away from the NTCC if that is not the case. Because they rely on the org and the org relies on them. Quid Pro Quo. Stop sending money to Graham and watch the NTCC hierarchy lay the fear tactic on you!!!
Tell Kekel that this is my church and I am keeping all the money that comes into my church right here. Isn't that what RWD did years ago when he broke away from another church to start his own? You better believe it and if you don't, that means RWD has successfully manipulated you also and he has used the fear tactic to do it.
The fear that Jesus instilled and the fear that the NTCC instills are two totally different animals.
Jeff
Jeff said..."The point that NTCC Minister was making was that Christ did use the tactic of fear to motivate people. I simply have to agree with him. He did the same thing in Revelation."
pdq says...I still disagree, and have been prepared to share why.
Any more verses out there to support NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. and Jeff's position?
pdq
Jeff,
Maybe PDQ has not used the term hate. He has stated,
"Don't get me wrong, I am not defending NTCC, I think they are evil, because the evidence is consistently there. I do not want anyone to become involved with them, and would prefer if everyone left and they ceased to exist.
I hope this answered more questions than it created.
pdq."
Now this may not be a text book definition of hate but if I said that Jeff was evil, I don't to see him prosper and in fact I wish he would cease to exist. The average person would not have a problem characterizing this as hate. Now, I don't think is morally wrong to hate something. Just like I do not think it is morally wrong to employ fear to dissuade from destructive behavior.
PDQ,
I can't take the suspense...
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.,
So, you have no more verses to add? Since there is no command in Mat. 18:7, Mat. 10:28 is your entire argument?
And no, I am not going to rely on the fact that you must have at least two (or more) verses. Although there is a parallel verse in Luk. 12:5, which you neglected to mention.
Regarding your most recent attack of me above, you can conclude anything you like from what I say, and no one need feel obligated to come to my defense. What I wrote was clear, and is a conclusion based on events we have all observed.
You wouldn't be wanting me to fear you, would you?
Forgive me if I don't regard/respond to your attack further.
pdq
PDQ,
:(
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
NTCC Minister said...
"Just like I do not think it is morally wrong to employ fear to dissuade from destructive behavior."
Jeff said...
NTCC Minister: You are starting to show a pattern here. You are only quoting the statements that I make that defend your position. I also wrote of love casting out all fear which was Christ's final act resulting in salvation for those who received him. There is no fear there and in that pdq was right. I also wish the NTCC would cease to exist because they are very destructive as pdq and myself have both quite clearly illustrated.
You are only highlighting one side of the story which is quite typical of "NTCC Ministers".
Jeff
Hello all,
I forgot to add another verse that supports NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. and Jeff's position:
1 Peter 2:17.
This gives their side 1 Pet. 2:12, Mat. 10:28, and Luk. 12:5 (which I also added).
I am going to wait a few more days (maybe a week) to give people time to weigh in with any more Bible verses, since some may not check Jeff's blog a few times each day as I do.
Jeff, I called you, but left and message since your machine was on. I also sent you a text message. Just to chat. I didn't really want to talk about any of this.
I would rather post more support for my conclusions here, since NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. has leveled such severe charges against me here.
As is typical with an NTCCer, he pronounced a judgment against me without hearing the entire matter.
If it turns out you all are wrong (I still think this is the case), or even that both views are acceptable (Jeff, you have shared this is possible), he will have falsely accused me.
No Fear,
pdq
Jeff said...
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
It does not say for by fear are ye saved. Fear does not save anyone. The blood of Christ does. He was made an offering for our sins. Love saves not fear. The Bible does not say that Christ feared for us. The Bible says that Christ loved us first.
The NTCC thrives on using fear tactics unlike we have seen used by Christ. Christ never threatened folks with impending bankruptcy if the didn't generously give to the church. The NTCC does that kind of stuff all the time.
pdq: I was an honest broker where this subject was concerned. I referenced scriptures that supported either stance and then I showed how they tied together. NTCC Minister elected to highlight only the statements that supported his views.
I also referenced these scriptures that no one commented on or highlighted: 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
The Bible says we love him. That is were the emphasis is, not fearing him.
This proves that any fear that God uses is temporary. God discontinues any use of fear when there is perfect love because the scripture proves that perfect love casteth out fear. The NTCC never casteth out fear because the fear tactic is on going and regularly used by the NTCC against anyone who might ever consider leaving their church.
There is no love there, just fear and Christ truly didn't operate that way. The End.
Jeff
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. (and now Jeff),
Since this old Bible Study I have been referencing is 19,500 characters, and would take 5 posts for its entire content to be entered onto Jeff’s blog, I will post it piecemeal. I will start with the most basic stuff and then, if I still have not convinced you, we will break out more basic stuff…as it’s all easy and takes effort to misunderstand, and not agree with it. I will start mostly with questions, which require a response from (at least) NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. before I will continue. Let’s begin…
The outcome (who is right, and who is wrong) of this whole argument may hinge upon one question:
1. Do results always equal (or even indicate) intent?
But here are some follow up questions to further clarify:
2. Does the fact that people ‘sometimes’ become fearful of God, or are motivated into action by fear (via a tragedy, dangerous situation, fear of hell, etc.) indicate this was God’s intent (God’s will), to scare someone into doing a certain thing?
3. Does a person’s response to Jesus’ teaching in the Gospels, and their response to the content of the rest of the New Testament, equal His intent; His ultimate goal?
☺ Actually, people mostly became puzzled and/or mad when Jesus (and the Apostles) spoke, not fearful; so was this Jesus’ intent? Stated differently:
4. Is Jesus (and the rest of the New Testament) providing information God wants us to know so we can respond to it as we choose, or is this information provided solely to ‘sometimes’ scare us into responding as we choose? Ultimately (hopefully) scaring us into the salvation experience; fear also being the ‘sometimes’ abiding state thereafter.
5. Can a person become a Christian without fearing God?
6. Can a person answer any calling God puts on their life without fearing Him?
7. Does God require a person to do anything (He requires) because of fear? Please give example(s) for a 'yes' answer.
8. Can a person do whatever God wants them to do without fearing Him?
9. Do you fear God? Please explain a yes answer, to include why.
That should do it for now. Please note, questions 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8 are 'yes' or 'no' questions.
pdq
PDQ,
Thanks for the quiz but you are suppose to be posting the results of your study that indicates,
"Jesus never used fear to motivate people."
This is the original statement that I took issue with.
In previous posts there have been statements made that I agree with. Namely, God uses both positive and negative motivators to bring people closer to himself. Those who are outside of a relationship with God have much to fear. Fear being an emotional response to either a known or unknown possibility. i.e. Fear of death or fear of Hell.
The more mature motivator is the positive, the goodness of God. As a Christian the blood of Christ has removed the fear because the sting of death has been removed.
As to the basic premise of your question; can someone respond to God's influence in a matter that is inconsistent with God's design? Yes.
However, is not fear part of God's design? Did he not create the faculty to fear?
NTCC Minister B.S, M.A.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
I am the one who made that statement and I am wrong. I should have said Jesus does not use fear and manipulation the way NTCC does.
FB
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.,
Since you did respond I will continue. I will accept your avoidance of answering my questions as your best answer. You responded as predicted. As you immediately realized, if you would have answered my questions, you would have shown yourself wrong. Although there was little chance you would fall for such an artifice, it was worth a try.
As a rule, NTCC Ministers prove themselves disingenuous, that they will not countenance being contradicted or shown wrong, and will display whatever exegetic side-show contortionist techniques are necessary to maintain the de rigor ‘I am right so you are wrong’ facade.
As everyone knows, this is a core attribute of humility and a Godly life, and another of the multitude reasons NTCC is winning, and runs such easy online circles around Exers.
Since NTCC’s ministers are never substantively challenged on a teaching (because this is how their churches are set up), their doctrines never develop past the “because I said so” phase. This is why it’s so easy (and fun) to engage them online.
Regarding my questionnaire, asking questions is a key skill (requisite for good teachers) in teaching. As you noticed I was asking higher-order questions. This decision was based on my perception of your level of comprehension/fear (high), though they were also simple questions which anyone without education level identifier acronyms after their name would easily understand. Though not trick questions, they are tricky/difficult to answer for the person whose agenda diverges from the Bible; tricky/difficult to answer and maintain the NTCC party line. So have a tendency to be pooh-poohed, as you did.
Jesus sometimes taught, forwarded a position, or made a point, etc. by asking questions. Paul did this also. Pastor Davis and Rev. Kekel occasionally use this method. NTCC’s Seminary makes limited use of this technique. Mostly though, NTCS makes statements where they should be asking questions. For example, instead of stating "We are winning!" they should consider asking "Are we winning?" God asks questions, to make a point, in the Old Testament (one example is in Job).
So I am in good company.
Louis Walcott, Plato, Jackie Mason, Socrates, Mister Rogers, Aristotle, Frank Zappa, Confucius, Mohamed, Ronald Regan, Bozo the Clown, Malcolm Little, Saul Alinsky, and multitude others use/used this method. Parents, Pre-Schools, Elementary Schools, Middle Schools, High Schools, Colleges/Universities (at all levels) use this method.
More later as I am still in my introduction,
pdq
Hello all,
I would like to revisit question number one, and add some commentary to it:
QUESTION 1: Do results/outcome always equal (or even indicate) intent?
ANSWER: No.
Let’s change QUESTION 1 to make it easier for NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. to truthfully answer yes…Do results/outcome ‘ever’ equal (or even indicate) intent?
ANSWER: Still no. Bummer, for a moment I thought I had disproved myself. This would be fine because I don’t care who is right, as long as a doctrine is right.
☺ To illustrate question 1: If I want to talk to someone about an incident (they were late for work, stole office supplies, missed a deadline, were abusive to a church member, etc.) what do I do? Well, I can do it privately, use tact, make an appointment for them to talk to me in my office, etc. I can also tell them in advance why I want to talk to them, so they are prepared. So I do all this, and after/while talking to them at the appointed place and time they become angry and/or quit their job. Does their decision to become angry show my intent? Was I using anger to motivate them? Does the fact they decided to quit their job show the intent, on my part, that they quit their job?
This is what is being said about God. Who is responsible for our emotions and decisions? Other people? God? Our own selves?
I may have expected them to get angry, maybe even quit their job…but, since I went to the lengths I did to not cause offense, while still handling a delicate issue, is it fair to me to assume this was my intent?
Yet, how can you tell if I don’t say? How can you make such a broad statement about God when this doctrine is not contained in the Bible? The doctrine of, “God sometimes uses fear to motivate people.” Or was their anger, and subsequent quitting, solely their decision?
☺ To further illustrate question 1: What if I do none of the above, and just publicly tear into them the first chance I get and/or when the whim moves me (ala NTCC), and they don’t get mad (or afraid), but accept it meekly, and make the correction? Does the fact they didn’t get mad, accepted my rebuke meekly, and made the correction, indicate my intent? Was I using acceptance/meekness to motivate them? How do you know if I don’t say?
Do the results from these two ☺ scenarios indicate/prove my intent? Was my purpose in the above two instances to illicit a pre-determined emotion from this not-so-hypothetical person as a means to address/correct a problem, or just address/correct a problem? If I don’t tell you, how do you ‘know’ my intent?
I will re-ask the question: Do results/outcome always equal (or even indicate) intent? How about if I word it thusly: Do results/outcome ever equal (or even indicate) intent? Are you able to answer this question correctly yet? For the slight chance you may still refuse, we will continue.
Ain’t skeered to still be in my introduction,
pdq
PDQ,
You may need to check the dosage on your meds. I'm concerned over your rambling. To make things easier, how about you just post your outline in small sections.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A
Are you "Concerned Minister" or are you "NTCC Minister"? You can't be both. Ha, ha. I'm hoping you'll appreciate my humor Comrade Minstof The Interrogator AKA Ivan The Terrible Minister. It's getting late and I'm tired, and my sense of humor is becoming warped.
Jeff
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.,
My med dosage is as prescribed, you are mischaracterizing thoroughness as rambling, and I am posting in small sections (i.e. 4,090 characters, or less, per comment posted).
Since you are the one who has repeatedly besmirched my testimony here, I do not feel obligated to regard any protests you have on how I have chosen to set the record straight here. I am merely defending myself against your repeated personal attacks by presenting why you are wrong in your doctrine, and therefore in how you have characterized me. This also reveals the things you have declared me guilty of are the things you became guilty of the moment you accused me (teaching heresy, etc.).
You have taken your best shot at supporting your “God sometimes uses fear to motivate people” teaching, and now I am systematically proving why you are wrong, which simultaneous proves you have libeled me on Jeff’s blog.
I can give you a few days to attempt to refute what I have posted thus far, and then continue…unless you will allow yourself to publicly admit I have already completely proven your doctrine wrong in my above post which consisted of the 9 questions. As you know, I haven’t even begun to share why the Bible proves you wrong, and have not even finished my introduction. What say you?
pdq
blah, blah, blah. this discussion is old. ntcc minister and pdq should let it die. who cares who is right. your both right.
Peace maker,
Two mutually exclusive positions cannot both be right. Your post modern philosophy does not reflect a biblical worldview.
PDQ,
I've been having a little fun and mean nothing against your personal integrity. However, you really are drawing this thing out. I fail to understand why you cannot take a few verses of scripture and demonstrate why they teach Jesus never used fear to motivate people. That is generally what people mean by a Bible Study.
BTW - The statement in question for the record is, "Jesus never used fear to motivate people".
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
Two mutually exclusive positions cannot both be right. Your post modern philosophy does not reflect a biblical worldview.
peacemaker says there can be some truth to both sides and i think that is the case with you and pdq. keep going if it is fun for you.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. said…“I've been having a little fun and mean nothing against your personal integrity.”
pdq says…Yet, most people do not consider being libeled fun.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. said…“I fail to understand why you cannot take a few verses of scripture and demonstrate why they teach Jesus never used fear to motivate people.”
pdq says…You should follow your own counsel, and provide even one verse that solidly proves (or even supports) your position. Plus, the fact there are no verses in the Bible that even indicate Jesus, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, or the Apostles ever used fear to motivate people, directly supports my position; the severe dearth of argument from your camp also makes my case. Your, and the Bible’s, deafening silence on this issue is all the proof I should need. Plus, my method of teaching a Bible topic is obviously more thorough than yours. Plus, since you are on the wrong side of this issue, your discomfort is understandable (although, your discomfort is only from resistance to the truth, in favor of perpetuating the party line…NTCC’s fear based ministry).
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. said…“BTW - The statement in question for the record is, "Jesus never used fear to motivate people"”
pdq says…this was my response to the statement “God sometimes uses fear to motivate people”, but I am also defending "Jesus never used fear to motivate people". You can word this any way you like. I am bypassing any nuance by showing fear is NEVER to be a factor (i.e. God’s will) in a Christians relationship with God; AND fear is not God’s will in moving (because of free will, God can’t move us anyway) a Christian in the direction God wants us to go; AND that fear is a sometimes byproduct of resistance (or ignorance, superstition, bad doctrine, etc.) to God, NEVER an indication fear is God’s intended motivator in ANY instance; AND “God sometimes motivates people through fear” cannot be established based only on what is contained in the Bible; AND other germane things you do not know are coming; AND anything else that is proven ancillary to this study; etc.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. said…“So the question remains, Did Jesus ever use fear to motivate people? I say yes. FB says no. The answer is important because it reveals to us an aspect of the character of God.”
pdq says…So, are you intimating the answer is no longer important? I think it is, which is why I am dedicating some time to expounding this.
I will give you about another day to post any rebuttal you can manufacture, before I continue (barring some emergency on my end). Please note: You can post anything you want, but unless you have a rebuttal, any other type of comment will only interfere with my defense of myself running its course. Also, please enlist everyone’s help, you need it.
pdq
PDQ,
Thanks for agreeing with my position. Your statement of the issue in question has demonstrated that you agree with my position. It would have been easier for you to say so earlier. Thanks.
"pdq says…this was my response to the statement “God sometimes uses fear to motivate people”,"
Here is PDQ's challange to which I will provide a clear and concise Bible Study.
"Plus, the fact there are no verses in the Bible that even indicate Jesus, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, or the Apostles ever used fear to motivate people, directly supports my position; the severe dearth of argument from your camp also makes my case. "
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Fear in this passage is defined by strongs as:
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.
Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luk 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Luk 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luk 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
In the above passage we are told not fear man but to fear God. The reason given is his power over humanity beyond the grave. The word fear and afraid that is the same word.
G5399
φοβέω
phobeō
fob-eh'-o
From G5401; to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: - be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.
It means to be frightened or alarmed. By way of analogy it can mean to be in awe or reverence. However, that is not the use of the word in this context. The context better fits the idea of being frightened at the prospect of divine judgement.
Jesus routinely utilized negative arguments to warn people of the consequences for their choices. He also frequently used positive arguments to encourage his disciples to continue and persevere in their faith. It is important to understand that God deals with believers and non-belivers differently because they are categorically and positionally distinct. For the believer God deals with him as a child. In that relationship awe would be the correct response. Not fear. This is why Jesus repeatedly told his disciples to fear not. They were were categorically distinct from a non-believer.
As to the Holy Spirit. When Annanias lied to the Holy Spirit he was judged instantly and killed. This is a unique occurrence in church history. God was demonstrating something. He was using this mans sin as an example. And it worked.
Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.
This word fear is a variation from the one used in Luke. It does not refer to awe at all but terror!
That my friend is what is considered a Bbile Study.
PS - I would be interested in what Vic, T. and Casey believe on this doctrine. So far Jeff, FB and myself are in agreement. Anyone else would be welcomed to join in the conversation too.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.,
I am surprised you say I agree with your position. Is this a sophomoric artifice? But, If you can explain this (my ostensible agreement), I can stop posting on this topic, and apologize. If you are somehow misunderstanding, I can start over.
While it is theoretically possible I am being too definitive for you, your B.S./M.A. should indicate this unlikely.
As far as you finally positing something more substantive in defense of your position, I will be addressing everything you posted in your last post, as it's further into my study.
It's good to see you are enlisting help.
pdq
PDQ,
You said,
"As far as you finally positing something more substantive in defense of your position, I will be addressing everything you posted in your last post, as it's further into my study."
Since your memory has failed you slightly I have reposted something from 7/30/2009.
Anonymous said...
T / PDQ
Regarding MW 10:28. The word fear as referenced to men and then God is the exact same word in this passage. The conext does snot denote awe but fright. As referenced by God's ability to complete destroy the entire person.
Strong's note.
G5399
φοβέω
phobeō
fob-eh'-o
From G5401; to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: - be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.
So the question remains, Did Jesus ever use fear to motivate people? I say yes. FB says no. The answer is important because it reveals to us an aspect of the character of God. Will you allow your hate for NTCC to cause you to mischaracterize God?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
Also from Jeff on 7/31/2009
"Between the four Gospels, Christ is quoted as using the literal word "hell" on 15 occasions. Now that probably only amounts to 5 times that the word is used by Christ because we all know that there are repeat accounts given throughout all four gospels. He used the word "fire" as it related to hell fire on about 20 occasions which probably translates to about 6 times because the word wasn't evenly distributed throughout all four Gospels. I got tired of counting the word fire, so 20 is as close as I will get but it still suffices to make my point. Christ obviously spoke often of not only "hell" but a burning fire that torments the souls existing in hell. Christ made that point quite clear. Why?
There is no other logical explanation other than Christ wanting to motivate folks to live their life in such a way so that they might avoid going to hell. Christ said that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Not only that, Christ said this: Luk 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."
Jeff said...
Why would Christ "forewarn" someone if he wasn't trying to create fear? He most certainly was. WARNING, DANGER, hence: "FEAR". Out of a good conscience I have to stick by NTCC Minister on this one because I believe he is right."
I forgot to include Fiona in the camp that believes as God has/does use fear.
Fiona said,
"God may use "fear" to motivate people. But always with that persons well being in mind."
That would be Fiona, Jeff, FB and myself who have come down on the side that Jesus/God uses fear to motivate people.
Also, very sound arguments have been made begining two weeks ago. I believe you have delayed and offered smoke screen hoping that this topic would be dropped because you realize you painted yourself into an unsupportable position.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.,
I have never been a consensus driven Christian, it would not matter if I was the only one who believed this (this would make me a heretic), I have a well developed, and long standing, argument for my belief, so I will stick with it, until shown why I am wrong.
You wrote..."I believe you have delayed and offered smoke screen hoping that this topic would be dropped because you realize you painted yourself into an unsupportable position."
We will add this charge to the libel you have already directed toward me. You mischaracterize giving you time to develop an argument (to be fair to you) as delay and smokescreen...I sure hope you're right, as it's always easier to apologize than persist in error.
You ARE presenting something more substantive in defense of your position (which is fine). Before you provided 2 disparate verses. You're now including others support (this is fine, I suggested this, you need the help), but this is not the same as what you have provided, and it is you and me who are having this discussion, I didn't include what others have written as if it is what you have written, as I am not sure you agree with it. Or are you the type that agrees with anything, as long as it supports your position?
FYI, my Bible Study also addresses what everyone else has presented (and probably will present) in support of your position thus far, so you don't have to re-present it. Just acknowledge you also agree with what everyone else on your side has written, and this will also suffice as you supporting your position.
You are the one now providing new support (which is good), after weeks of not providing anything, even though I solicited the input. This shows you, rather than me, are the one studying behind the scenes to keep up--that you are the one with the position that is undeveloped, that has not progressed passed the "Because I said so" stage (more on this later, in my already completed study).
You say 'sound arguments' have been made, but they have been made with belief that "God sometimes uses fear to motivate people" and I have publicly rejected this premise, and am in the process of showing why this is wrong, so the 'sound argument' will be shown (I already have in my 9 questions post, everything else is gravy) to not be 'sound'. Isn't this why you and me are here? Or am I misunderstanding this also?
pdq
Thanks for coming,
Since you are still here, let’s continue…
Even though some NTCC Pastors have told me, “I am going to blast them tonight!”, does this indicate what they want the emotional response to their message from God to be? They/I may assume one (e.g. the constituents are not going to like this, and some will get mad) but is this the same as saying generating a fear/anger response was their desire/will, if they don’t tell me? Hopefully this would never be their desire/will.
Can I love God without ‘fearing’ Him? Without ‘fearing’ Him ever? Can I serve God without ‘fearing’ Him? Without ‘fearing’ Him ever? Will God be pleased with my life if I don’t ‘fear’ Him? If I don’t ‘fear’ Him ever? Since you say God ‘sometimes’ wants to motivate me by ‘fear’, If I don’t ever ‘fear’ Him am I sinning? How am I to determine which ‘sometimes’ are the right times to ‘fear’ God; i.e. when being motivated by ‘fear’ is God’s will; when ‘fear’ is pleasing to God? If I am not afraid of God, am I also not properly motivated, has God perfect will for my life been frustrated in some instances? Regarding ‘fearing’ God, does anyone really ever ‘fear’ God, or do they just ‘fear’ consequences?
People will get scared/’fear’ (or even get mad) at the Bible’s ‘sometimes’ message of consequences, but what if someone submits right away? No sense of ‘fear’ will build. Is this person out of step with God’s word because they didn’t repent/respond/answer via ‘fear’ (or while in a state of ‘fear’). Again, how do you know which times are the right times to ‘fear’ God? When is ‘fear’ God’s will? How did you determine this, since this is not addressed in His Word?
We feel ‘fear’ when we feel helpless (e.g. getting mugged, flying in an airplane, an overseer visits, etc.); when we procrastinate (e.g. needing to study, etc. but we put it off); when we are unprepared (e.g. didn’t study, a first date, an overseer visit, etc.); when we resist (e.g. fist fighting, etc.); something is unknown (e.g. a first date, an overseer visits, etc.); are in a dangerous situation (e.g. in prison, an overseer visits, etc.), etc. This is inarguable, but does this prove God ever wants to motivate us through fear?
Let’s consider flying. Many people are ‘fearful’ of flying, or ‘fearful’ while they are flying. But, does the reaction of ‘fear’ of flying prove the Wright Brother’s intent? Was their goal to scare the snot out of future generations so they will fly, or to develop a way to fly like a bird in a controlled manner; creating a flying machine of practical utility which they could sell? We wouldn’t ‘know’ either way unless they told us.
Is fear even a factor for the sinner who doesn’t resist the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and/or the person that is already God’s Child? What about it Christians? Are we helpless, procrastinating, unprepared, resistant, unknowing, etc. as Christians? Is God a tyrannical Father, or a loving one?
Yes, ‘fear’ of judgment may wash over a person at times; but only when they resist, or someone is guilt tripping them, or they are superstitious, or ignorant, or are suffering from a case of bad doctrine, etc. But, is this the reaction God prefers? Yes, God allows punishment/judgment in this life and the next, but does this teach us God ever prefers we ‘fear’ Him? That ‘fearing’ God is His will in any given instance?
Did Jesus say, “Fear me, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men” to motivate people to follow Him through ‘fear’, or “Follow Me and I will make you fishers of men” so people would follow Him so He could make them fishers of men? Jesus (nor God, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the Apostles, etc) never identifies any required ancillary negative emotions.
Ain’t skeered to still be in my introduction,
pdq
"PS - I would be interested in what Vic, T. and Casey believe on this doctrine."
I have kids. Can't imagine wanting them to fear me (especially now that I'm out of the org). Having children and striving to be a good parent will teach you more about God's relationship with believers than you'll find in the bible. I believe PDQ will make a sufficient case. God isn't at all like RW Davis; there is no need to fear him.
This is a good point Vic. I wonder if NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. has shared if he has any children? This could explain his view.
I have a child, so I have a better understanding of the 'normal' relationship between a father and child, over someone who does not have children.
pdq
I can still remember the good old days...I use to log on to Jeff's blog in anticipation of reading a Bible study consisting of 19,500 words that had been prepared by PDQ years earlier. As the disappointments mounted and days turned into weeks I began to despair. Perhaps he is busy I told myself. Perhaps he is on vacation. Perhaps he is using the facilities.
Think how I felt when I discovered long posts by this very PDQ on other threads. Oh the hurt! Oh the betrayal!!
I guess he was not offended as he lead on by all of the "libel". I guess my spiritual eyes will never be enlightened to the deeper things of gawd.
P.S. - Vic Said,
"Having children and striving to be a good parent will teach you more about God's relationship with believers than you'll find in the bible. I believe PDQ will make a sufficient case."
I said,
"In previous posts there have been statements made that I agree with. Namely, God uses both positive and negative motivators to bring people closer to himself. Those who are outside of a relationship with God have much to fear. Fear being an emotional response to either a known or unknown possibility. i.e. Fear of death or fear of Hell. "
Vic, your position is actually closer to mine by stating a qualitative difference regarding God's relationship to believers. And, apparently you are mistaken in believing PDQ will offer a sufficient case.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. said..."Would this be a good time to ask PDQ how that study is coming along? (I feel like the paper boy in the 80's movie "Better Off Dead" trying to get his two dollars.)"
Sure, any time is a good time. Copying and pasting this old Bible study (tweaked for Jeff’s blog) has been easy. Or you could just read what I have copied and pasted above thus far. Don’t be afraid, read all I’ve posted above. We are all waiting on you to refute what I have copied and pasted thus far. If you were to ask me personally, I would tell you my defense of the ‘fear’ topic is going even better than I anticipated. Yes, my position gets stronger to any readers with each ‘on topic’ post I enter onto Jeff’s blog (as anticipated), but we are learning more about you. I was really hoping you position was more developed than what you have shared thus far.
Your various comments are disingenuous, as you have been given ample time to respond to what I have copied and pasted thus far, but you falsely depict yourself as waiting on me. What are you going to resort to next? That you're a victim, I don’t play fair, people are ganging up on you, but you are winning, and I am just a jealous hater and failure (my second favorite), you have better things to do than post here (my personal favorite), etc? You wouldn’t be the first (nor will you be the last) NTCC preacher to resort to this final line of attempted face saving defense. Again, your B.S./M.A. should indicate a grasp of how to engage my direct examination (my part) of the ‘fear’ topic with a cross examination (your part) of what I copy and paste. And then both of us redirect for as long as is necessary to prove me wrong (or you quit).
I have been posting this Bible Study in small sections for one reason...To present you with smaller pieces to respond to, as we go. I have been waiting between post for one reason, “…giving you time to develop an argument (to be fair to you)…”
I will give you more time to catch up. Explain why what I have copied and pasted thus far does not prove your position wrong, or agree with it, or even part of it. (HINT: You could even say it’s wrong because I have yet to cite any Bible.) Otherwise, your off topic responses continue to show your lack of grasp of the import of my questions and scenarios, or that you grasp that my questions and scenarios have already proven your position wrong, but you are 'afraid' to publicly admit it.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A., why did you post the following on August 13, 2009 @ 10:48 PM?...
“You may need to check the dosage on your meds. I'm concerned over your rambling. To make things easier, how about you just post your outline in small sections.”
It wasn’t so you could respond as I go? Are you going to respond as I go, as you intimate above?
What say you?
Ain’t skeered to work within your self imposed limitations,
pdq
Hello everyone,
Although It may appear, to the less patient among us, NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. has lost interest (quit) before he even started, you should note it has only been 28 days since I first began posting to defend myself (my 9 questions post) from NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.’s online attack(s) of me, and only 15 days since we last heard from him here.
I will continue presenting a study on 'fear' (with or without NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.) at my leisure (barring some emergency on my end), as correcting any bad ‘NTCC doctrine’ (what little there is of it) I find, is personally important to me, since I am a Christian.
pdq
Greetings to all, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Let’s continue…
Some ‘fear’ merchants will eventually get around to making a statement similar to, “…is not ‘fear’ part of God's design? Did he not create the faculty to ‘fear’?” as NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. does above. When the ‘fear’ mongers do this they are out of argument, so let’s examine this fallacious, though common, logic.
In the garden, it’s not recorded Adam and Eve were not ‘afraid’ of anything. Not of God nor snakes; not of being close to ‘any’ of the animals while naming them (in Adam’s case); not of being naked, not of each other, etc. The first instance of ‘fear’ recorded in the pages of the Bible is Adam’s ‘fear’ of being naked before God (he had a previous different relationship with God, thus showing sin altered his emotional make-up), after he sinned. ‘Fear’ is not a natural state for a person. Doctors tell us ANY negative emotion negatively affects our bodies systems. ‘Fear’, hate, jealousy, bad doctrine, anger, guilt, shame, etc. all negatively affect our health.
God did not create any of these negative ‘emotions’. They are the sole result of sin. To persist in this view, that God created us this way (as fearful beings), is akin to saying Detroit created a car to run on an odd number of spark plugs because this is the way it’s running now (even though it was created with an even number, and ran on an even number when new). As I said…fallacious. We need not ever allow someone else choose for us what our relationship with God is (or will be).
While many others live in ‘fear’ of God (this is what they say, but ask them to explain this; they won’t be able to), you can be in awe of Him…pretty neat huh? But, people don’t really ‘fear’ God, this is just what they say. If they really ‘feared’ God they would be able to explain this ostensible personal experience, so are therefore lying, at best being dramatic, or at worst pushing an agenda which supports a lie. Yes, pushing an agenda which supports a lie is worse than lying, since this propagates the lie.
I still contend (since no one has ‘proven’ otherwise) God puts out the information in His Word, and it is up to us to regard it or not, through action or inaction; accompanied by whatever emotion (or no emotion) suits our fancy, personality, and/or temperament. We have recently seen the recurring statement, “God ‘sometimes’ uses ‘fear’ to motivate people” whereas I say, “People are ‘sometimes’ motivated by their own ‘fear’”. A capacity (to fear) that is the sole result of Adam’s sin. Since people will have different emotional responses (or no emotional response) to the same Bible teaching, does this indicate a frustration of God’s complete will in some cases? Are we looking at a frustration of part of God’s perfect plan when not all ‘sometimes’ ‘fear’ him, when not all are ‘sometimes’ motivated by ‘fear’, or when some never ‘fear’ God?
I know you all said SOMETIMES God motivates through ‘fear’, but again, how can one determine which SOMETIMES are God’s intent (or even that it is ever His intent) just from what is contained in the Bible? Since God created us as free moral agents, and he will not violate this aspect of our construction by forcing us to do anything, how can God motivate us through fear (or anything else)? My position (based on only what the Bible says in context, not based on what others want it to say) is still “any emotions are ancillary”, God is concerned with results only; whether it be for or against His will.
It is more consistent with a loving God (God is love), God’s revealed will as contained in the Bible, and the God revealed in the Bible, that we be in awe/reverence of Him.
No ‘fear’ In His Service,
pdq
In response to PDQ:
2 Timothy 1:7 (I provided a few different translations below)
(NIV) For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.
(NAS) For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.
(ISV) For God did not give us a spirit of timidity but one of power, love, and self-discipline.
(GWT) God didn't give us a cowardly spirit but a spirit of power, love, and good judgment.
(KJV) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
(AKJ) For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
(ASV) For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.
(BBE) For God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of self-control.
(DRB) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of sobriety.
(DBY) For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion.
(ERV) For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.
(WBS) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
(WEY) For the Spirit which God has given us is not a spirit of cowardice, but one of power and of love and of sound judgement.
(WEB) For God didn't give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and self-control.
(YLT) for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind;
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